An Old Timey Podcast - 65: The Donner Party: An American Tragedy (Part 1)

Episode Date: July 30, 2025

This episode kicks off our coverage of an infamous American tragedy – the Donner Party. In the mid-1800’s, a group that would later be known as the Donner Party set out West in search of a better life. The California and Oregon Trails were notoriously tough. The journey was dangerous, unpredictable and long. So, when an irresponsible, self-serving douchebag named Lansford Hastings began touting a shortcut to California, members of the Donner Party were intrigued. Could there really be a faster way to California? Tragically, Lansford was full of shit. Remember, kids, history hoes always cite their sources! For this episode, Kristin pulled from: “The Indifferent Stars Above: The Harrowing Saga of a Donner Party Bride,” by Daniel James Brown “The Best Land Under Heaven: The Donner Party in the Age of Manifest Destiny,” by Michael Wallis The documentary, “The Donner Party” “How the Donner Party was doomed by a disastrous shortcut,” by Erin Blakemore for History.com “Lansford Hastings, the Donner Party, and the Civil War,” by Elizabeth Eisenstark for the National Museum of Civil War Medicine “The deadly temptation of the Oregon Trail shortcut,” by Laura Kiniry for atlasobscura.com Are you enjoying An Old Timey Podcast? Then please leave us a 5-star rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts! Are you *really* enjoying An Old Timey Podcast? Well, calm down, history ho! You can get more of us on Patreon at patreon.com/oldtimeypodcast. At the $5 level, you’ll get a monthly bonus episode (with video!), access to our 90’s style chat room, plus the entire back catalog of bonus episodes from Kristin’s previous podcast, Let’s Go To Court.

Hear ye, hear ye. You are listening to an old timey podcast. I'm Kristen Caruso. And I'm Normie C. And on this episode, I'll be talking about the Donner Party. Ooh. One of my favorite stories from American history. Also one of the saddest.

Yeah. I've just gotten over my depression from my last topic, Kristen. And now you come swinging in with the Donner Party. I tried to warn people, and honestly, everyone, I'm sorry. Norm covered the bath school disaster, which you did a great job. Thank you. It was just like the saddest thing I'd ever heard in my life. And the whole time, I was thinking, my God.

Next, I'm covering the Donner Party. And folks, if you're like, Donner Party, that sounds familiar. I don't know much about it. Ho! Are you in for a depressing little treat? This episode's going to be fun, though. Okay. Which I know sounds bizarre, but it really, we're building up to something.

So the first couple episodes, not so bad. We're building up to the melancholy. It's melancholy month here on an old-timey podcast. Melancholy is a really nice word for it. Norm, do you have a plug for our Patreon? I do, Kristen. Do you know what this Friday is? Do you know what's happening this Friday?

No. It's Colorado Day. That's not a, okay. It's the anniversary of when Colorado was admitted as a state. Okay. It's an actual holiday Well yeah Congratulations Colorado

Yeah Yeah And you know You listeners out there Might be thinking Holy shit I can't believe I didn't know about Colorado

Day I've got to plan A celebration Uh huh Old Timey Podcast How can I thank you For reminding me Well I'll tell you

How you can thank us Why not support This small sexy Independent podcast Over on patreon.com Slash old timey podcast Norm I'll be honest I had no idea

How the hell This was gonna relate back to our Patreon, but boy, did you bring it swinging back in. I can literally relate anything back to our Patreon. Give me something, and I'll tie it to the Patreon. She's cassidia. I'm sorry, that was highly redundant. Cacadilla.

Folks, do you love casadias? Do you want to talk to other people about casadias? We have a food server in our Discord, and you can access that Discord by going to Patreon.com slash old-timey podcast. where you'll find other cassidia fans. For just $5 a month, you'll get access to our monthly bonus episodes with full video and get to chitty chat about casillas in the Discord. But if you're ready to commit, if you want to go all the way with us, baby,

get on that $10 pig butter investor tier, you get bonus episodes, sign card and stickers, early ad-free video episodes, access to our monthly trivia parties, 10% off all merch, and ad-free episodes of Kristen's old decrepit rotting podcast. Let's go to court. So head on over to patreon.com slash old-timey podcast to sign up. Thank you very much. And with that, Kristen, take it away.

Okay, here we go. Today we begin our series on an infamous American tragedy, The Donner Party. The Donner Party is a story that, to this day, fascinates and horrifies. It's ghoulish and grim. It's the story of a group of Americans who, in the mid-1800, hundreds piled everything they could into a wagon and headed out west in search of a better life. And how one douchebag's insistence that he'd discovered a shortcut put 87 people on an ill-fated journey.

In the end, some lost their minds. Many resorted to cannibalism. And ultimately, half of them survived. But I swear to you, this first episode really is pretty fun, so don't go anywhere. I swear. Mm-hmm. You got some sounds queued up for this one, Kristen? No, I don't have sounds queued up. I'm just talking, but I mean, it's the build-up, you know, these things. You know, this episode can be a little fun.

Next one, a little fun. And then, you know, it'll get less and less fun until it's just horrible. Okay, okay. So you're not giving us something to look forward to. Brace yourselves, history, ho. Okay. All right, picture it. Twas the 1840s, and Americans were restless.

Money was tight, thanks to the panic of 1837. Oh, and who could forget it? Andrew Jackson? Literally all of us have forgotten it. Just know that money was tight, Norm. Keep your context interest out of here. There were constant outbreaks of diseases. Colora, malaria!

People were mystified as to how to combat their illnesses. weirdly, bloodletting wasn't working. And the concept of germs was mostly a weird European thing, like bidets or berets. So germs had been invented in Europe. And us Americans were like, that sounds like a bunch of bullshit to me. Something I can't see? Yeah, right. In other words, things looked bleak.

But then, oh, wow. A concept took hold in the American psyche. It was Manifest Destiny. Oh, Norm's a big fan. Oh, yeah. I think we should still be practicing Manifest Destiny. Let's just keep going west, folks. Soon we'll hit Japan and China.

We'll just keep going. Manifest Destiny was the idea that America had a right, a God-given right, actually, to expand westward. Now, did that land out west belong to us? No. No, not really. But as I distinctly remember being taught in elementary school,

when we move into another nation's land, it's manifest destiny, and it's very heroic and very cool, and everyone gets a bonnet. But when people move into our land, it's called illegal immigration, and it has to stop. Kristen. Have you ever thought about how

Manifest Destiny led to the creation of Goofy? What? Well, think about it. Manifest Destiny. We move out west. Okay. California becomes a state.

Sure. Walt Disney moves to California. Okay. Sets up Walt Disney Studios, creates Mickey Mouse and goofy. Think about it. You are so... Think about it.

I'm not thinking about it. This could be like a PhD. level thesis. No. It could absolutely not. Maybe a PhD at Norm's for-profit, made-up university. How many people died for Goofy to exist? In a way, that's what this is all about, huh? I actually had to write a paper in grad school about the California Indian genocide,

and that was horrific. I'm going to ask you to hold on to your hat there. Okay. Stuff will come up later. Got it. Also, I'm going to ask you to never mention goofy again. You know what? Gorsh.

How about this? How about this, Kristen? That was my goofy impression. Gorsh. How about this? Future topic? Goofy? How manifest destiny led to going.

I'll take you through the whole timeline. Oh, great. I'm really looking forward to that. Americans in this time period were sold on the idea that moving out west would give them, ironically, the American dream. It was seen as romantic and fun and hard, sure, but hard in a rugged way, not in a difficult, sad, regret all your life choices kind of way. Right, right. And so a lot of people moved out west, but getting there was one hell of a journey.

And if you don't know what I'm talking about, then you've clearly never experienced the bliss of nabbing one of your fourth grade classroom's desktop computers to play the Oregon Trail during inside recess. Norm, I'd ask you about the video game, the Oregon Trail, but I have a sense you don't know anything about it, so we're just going to move on. Nope, I'm not very familiar. It was an intimidating journey, one that started for most people in Independence, Missouri. Oh, nearby here. That's right. And lasted anywhere from four to six months. The trail took them through deserts, mountain ranges, and the Great Plains. On their journey, travelers faced unbearable heat, unbearable cold, breathtaking winds. They faced danger,

not just from disease or exhaustion or lack of resources or horror of horrors, the occasional rattlesnake, but also from other people on and off the trail. So, although the journey out west was often romanticized. People knew that it wasn't for the faint of heart. And in the early 1840s, they weren't exactly making the journey in droves. But Norm, one man hoped to change all of that. The man who hoped to change that was named Lansford W. Hastings. That name makes my blood boil. Yeah, everybody, Norm knows this story very well. He's obsessed with the Donner Party, which makes me very nervous. I am waiting for you to um actually me like 12 times in every episode on this.

I'm very nervous. Ooh. Ooh. In my patented norm voice. That's right. Lansford was an ambitious dude. He was an attorney originally from Mount Vernon, Ohio. And in 1842, when he was just 23 years old, he'd gone out west and he'd been blown away,

blown away by his own bullshit about what a big important boy he could become in either Oregon or California. His idea was that if he could get enough white folks to come out west, then he could become, you know, their leader, maybe. And perhaps he could emerge as the head honcho in a whole new society run by him. Really? Norm, I must say, if anyone deserved to run a society in the country, age of Manifest Destiny, it was definitely Lansford Hastings. Why? Okay, well, I personally believe all you have to do is look at a photo of this guy,

because if you think about his eyebrows as being like the Atlantic Ocean, then I'd say his hairline was honest to God, manifest destinying all the way to the back of his neck. Oh, my God. Look at him. He's got a five-head, Kristen. He has a huge forehead, and I hate him. Yeah, we can make fun of him. We absolutely can make fun of him.

I do regret to inform the listeners that he was handsome. I do have to admit that he was handsome. I think that's always a factor for a douchebag. He's hot with a bad haircut. He, okay. If he was bald, he'd be cleaning up on the trail. Absolutely. If he just had a better hairstyle.

Everyone, if you're not at the $10 level and, well, and I guess if you don't have Google, which, okay, whatever, I'll describe his haircut. Although I already did beautifully. but another way to think of it is like picture a bowl cut like a literal bowl like is on the head and something terrible happens as the haircuts happening where the bull kind of slips off the back and the person keeps cutting it's a bowl cut that's gone askew is what I'm trying to tell the people it's just like a it's just like an old-timey no no people yeah I'm not seeing bull cut here oh norm hang on I'm going to look him up again yeah I'm not seeing a bull cut You're telling me that other dudes looked at this man and they were like,

oh, I recognize that style. I have it himself. That was a popular haircut at the time. Okay. How many photos from the 1800s are you seen? Well, okay, fine. I've been caught. Are you happy, Norm?

Haircut defender. Lansford Hastings defender. Anyhow. Now that Mommy and Daddy have had a fight over a dude's haircut from the 1840s, I can now move forward in what I hope will be inspiring to all of us. Are you ready to be inspired? I'm ready. I've been feeling real down lately.

Well, here you go. Okay, so Lanceford had this dream, right? Totally realistic dream. We're all rooting for him. And even though he had zero expertise and very little knowledge of his subject matter, he didn't let any of that stop him from writing a poorly researched, super racist, very dangerous book. titled The Immigrants Guide to Oregon and California. Yeah.

Oh, wow. The book was utter bullshit. It became a bestseller. Norm, you seem intrigued by the contents of this book. I think I'd like to option it for a film. Oh, no thanks. I'll sum it up for you now. According to the Immigrants Guide to Oregon and California,

Oregon and California were basically the best places on earth. They had the best land, the best climate. Now, come on out and get you some. In the book, Lansford also wrote about the people. Oh, boy. What? Hang on. Norm, he wrote that, you know, all the folks who'd come out west, you know, the settlers,

were all great. Every last one of them. Honest, hardworking, sexy as hell. Definitely didn't have weird bowl cut. But, yeah, and then he also wrote about Mexicans and Native Americans. What did he say about those people, Kristen? Oh. Maybe similar things, how great they are.

No, no, no, no. They are native to the land. They understand how to work the land, and, like, we can work together in harmony and create a beautiful place. Hmm. Right? That sure is sweet, Norm. Here's what actually happened.

See, Lansford was a little worried that people might not make. the journey if they thought too hard about the fact that California was definitely part of Mexico. Yes. He also worried that people might not make the journey if they thought too hard about the fact that they might meet some Native Americans along the way. Well, on that front, Lansford had some reassuring words. He wrote that white folks didn't need to worry about Mexican people because the dumbest white person is on par with the smartest Mexican person. That's in the book. Yeah.

As for Native Americans, well, don't worry. They're mostly gone. Really? Now, Norm, you mentioned earlier about the California genocide. Mm-hmm. Yeah, he meant that as a reassuring thing, I think. And if you're getting a weird feeling like, oh, dear God, did Lansford murder some Native American people?

Yeah, you're on to something there. He was part of a group that did that. A lot of settlers would ban together and do little raids on California Indian villages. Yeah, it was an extermination campaign. It absolutely was. That was a key part of Manifest Destiny. Now, Norm, you might be thinking that Lansford's book was simply propaganda, racist propaganda. But that is not true.

In fact, Lansford's book was also groundbreaking because in it, he included a shortcut for people to use on their way to California. First, I want to talk a little bit about that trail. A shortcut was a big deal because particularly on the California Trail, timing was everything. A good shortcut could mean the difference between life and death. The hardest part of the California Trail was the last 100 miles of the journey. Just like in the video game, Oregon Trail. Is that how they do it in the video game too? Yeah, the last part of the trail is the toughest.

I never made it very far. I always, you know, things would happen in a river. I would always kill way too many bison and then not be able to take them in my wagon. Yeah. You can only carry 100 pounds back to the wagon, Kristen. It's true. That last stretch took people across the Sierra Nevada Mountains. That mountain range has 500 peaks that are more than 12,000 feet high.

And because the Sierra Nevadas are so tall, and because they are so close to the ocean, that area is prone to a lot of snow. And you did not want to reach the Sierra Nevada mountains when it was snowing. You also didn't want to be there when the snow started melting. All that melted snow created a ton of mud And good luck getting your wagon out of that mud I'm just thinking about you and I Went to Colorado last month

Hashtag Colorado Day, August 1st And we climbed twin sisters Which was almost 12,000 feet And like that was pretty grueling Just us hiking it I can't imagine hauling a wagon up that thing That sounds like pure hell I would stay put in the Midwest or wherever out east I was.

Yeah. Well, I guess they weren't taking the wagon up to the tip top of a mountain. This would be really stupid. That's a good point, actually. All right, now we're just going to roll it down the other side. I can't believe I went with you on that. Like, yeah, yeah, and it's a real shame. They did that to those oxen.

It's just up and down. Sorry, I'm, that was real stupid. Anyway, continue. But we shan't cut it. Yeah, well, we're keeping that in. So it was critical to reach those mountains at just the right time in order to safely get through the last and hardest leg of the journey. But as Norm and I just pointed out, it'd be a lot easier if they didn't go up every single mountain and down every single mountain. Really stupid.

Everyone who took off for California knew that they had to start their journey in Missouri after the spring rains and move quickly enough to hit the Sierra Nevada Mountains before snow fell. But it was scary. to think about timing on a journey where so much could go wrong, where so much was outside of your control. So it made sense that anyone taking the California Trail would want a shortcut. And boy, did our pal Lansford Hastings deliver! As he was writing his book, he looked at one of the, you know, not super accurate or detailed maps that were available to him in the mid-1840s. And sure enough, wow. He saw a shortcut, Norm.

Oh, my God. He did. He saw it right there. On the map. Yeah, what? Yeah, so he just took a pencil and was like, if I just cut across here, I'd save some time. Now, Norm, he didn't actually use the shortcut. Norm, you're being really condescending to Lansford.

So I would like to know what the hell is wrong with just taking a pencil and going, well, this is the faster way right here, huh? What could go wrong? My issue is the person that created the map would have probably already pointed that. out or someone who has already been on the trail pointing out, you can't just look at a map and be like, oh yeah, here's a shortcut and it's official now and we should all take this route without even exploring it. Why not?

Why is it important to explore it? Because you got to see what the hell is on that little shortcut. You know, if I draw a straight line from Kansas City to Lansing, Michigan, and I just say, well, this is the fastest way to Lansing. I'd probably end up in like one of the great lakes. Very good point, Norm. Yeah. Yeah.

Thank you. I am brilliant. If you're just, well, you just came up with the idea of going up a mountain and down a mountain in a covered wagon. Like a mountain, there's the highs and the lows in my brain, Kristen. So yeah, he spotted a shortcut. But why hadn't anyone else thought to take this shortcut? It seemed so obvious. It's weird.

I wonder why. It's a real mystery. No, probably because they weren't as smart as him, Norm. Duh. This guy's brilliant, okay? Just look at his hair. I wonder why the natives call this place the Valley of Death. Hmm.

I don't know. I don't know. We shouldn't pay attention. Yeah, don't worry about it. The traditional California Trail took people through Wyoming and into Idaho and into Nevada before eventually ending in California. but Lansford's idea, which he dreamed up in 12 seconds and confidently shared in his best-selling book, was that everyone could shave like 300 miles off their journey by giving Idaho the finger

and dropping down into Utah before eventually heading into Nevada and ending up in California. In other words, people would take a much-needed shortcut before they hit the Sierra Nevada Mountains. That shortcut, which is now referred to as the Hastings cutoff, made perfect sense on paper. But the truth was that when Lanceford Hastings wrote about that shortcut, he'd never taken it himself. I told you. And there's reason to believe that he hadn't consulted with anyone else who'd taken that route either. I'm not going to spoil what's on that route, but it's horrifying that he said, yeah, this is a shortcut and you should take it. It's absolutely awful.

Yeah. I hate this man. It is awful. He touted his shortcut as a time saver for anyone looking to go to California. His book came out in 1845, and the book promoted California and Oregon. And really, it didn't actually include much information about that shortcut to California. I found that interesting. So one author theorized that Lansford probably threw in the stuff about the shortcut kind of as an afterthought.

obviously a very irresponsible, careless afterthought. And it would have been great if it had stayed that way. But after his book was published, Lansford teamed up with a guy who owned a lot of land in California. And from that friendship, Lansford developed a more specific dream. A dream that if he could just get white Americans to come out to California, he'd become part of a movement to take California from

Mexico. From there, he'd established California as an independent republic. And oh, guess what? He would become the leader of this new independent republic. Oh, Norm, legend has it that Lansford was so excited. His forehead grew three sizes that day. Well, he's going to be in luck because I believe the Mexican-American war is happening here soon. Yeah, it's all happening. Did Lansford kind of lead the charge on that war? Was he? He wasn't that powerful. Oh, darn. Yeah.

Well, no, no, it's good he wasn't that powerful. I just figured he'd like, you know, take off his hat and the sun would beam off his forehead and blind the troops. We surrender. It could have happened. We don't know that it didn't, so let's assume that it did. So with this new dream in his head, Lance. His big old in his forehead. Lanceford was like Oregon. Ew, I don't know her. California is my girlfriend now. And so it was that dream, the dream of ruling California, that propelled him forward. And as a result, that shortcut that he'd proposed in his book, despite never having taken it himself, all of a sudden became crucial to his future success. If he could sell people on the idea of taking that shortcut,

and possibly shaving an entire month off their journey? Well, he might just get the influx of immigrants he'd been hoping for. So he held lectures about the shortcut. He wrote open letters about how great the shortcut was. And in 1846, a year after his book had been published, Lansfer decided that it might finally be time to test out the shortcut that he'd been promoting. Oh, he's finally going to actually try it out? Well, you know, he was busy, Norm.

He had all kinds of things going on, you know, just up to his eyeballs in stuff. Right. Right. But, you know, test out might be kind of a generous term for what he ended up doing. Because if he'd really wanted to test that shortcut, he probably should have done it the way actual people would do it. With a wagon. Thank you. In a wagon.

And on a time crunch. Yeah. Instead, Lansford and a few other dudes opted to take the shortcut on horseback. Yeah, like a casual horseback ride through it. Uh-huh. A lot easier travel method than hauling a fucking wagon. You talk about apples and oranges. That is so ridiculous.

And did he go in like May? Norm, you're so good. What a beautiful time to be on my shortcut. You are so good. So not only did he do this shit on horseback, he did it at a time when. the weather was super forgiving. And again, not on a time crunch because he kind of took it the opposite direction that you would take it if you were going on the California Trail. So, yeah, it's just adorable how he did this.

Do you have a cute little hat and shades on? Girl, you know he did. Got to protect that forehead. So in the meantime, everyday Americans were reading Lansford's book and feeling inspired. And that's how we arrive at the Donner Party. Ultimately, the ill-fated Donner Party would grow to include 87 people. But at its core, were three families. They were the families of George and Tampson Donor, Jacob and Elizabeth Donner, and James and Margaret Reed.

All three of these families were living in Springfield, Illinois when they got the itch to move out west. Oh, shout out Springfield, Illinois. Woo, shout out Springfield, Illinois. He said it great. Just took three tries. Shout out to that town I'm very familiar with and know how to say. He says it perfectly every time. Is there anything you want to say about Springfield?

I mean, you can't really say it very well, but you do seem genuinely excited. It's the capital of Illinois. You do love a capital city? It is the home of the horseshoe. Did I say that, horseshoe? Now you feel like you can't say anything. It's home of the horseshoe sandwich, which is not really a sandwich, I got to say. Oh, excuse me.

And it's where Abraham Lincoln lived. I love how you saved the thing you are most horny about for last. You love Abraham Lincoln. Very horny for Abraham Lincoln. Yes. Now, we definitely have a poster of him in our bedroom. I wish. You won't let me hang it up.

These three families had different motivations, wildly different personalities. And the truth was that they didn't all know each other very well before they embarked on this journey together. Side note on that, I mentioned two Donner families. Yeah, I was going to say. They obviously knew each other very well. George Donner and Jacob Donner, they were brothers. Okay. But the Reed family, a little different.

So let's meet them, shall we? Okay. We're going to start with one of my personal favorite people, James Frazier Reed. James was a complicated man. How so? Do you remember much about him? I do. You do?

Yeah, you remember all this stuff. Okay. I'll let you tell your story, sure. Okay. He's sometimes described as having been very wealthy when he started this journey out to California. But that's not true. The truth is, he appeared rich at the start of this journey. And that was by design.

So for background. As a young man, James had worked in a mine and he'd worked really hard, saved up some money, invested it well. And he bought a farm. He bought a general goods store. He bought some real estate. He bought a starch factory, which... I thought you were about to say a Starbucks. I was like, there's no fucking way.

He had a Starbucks. This is the story of how the first Starbucks came to be. A starch factory. Okay. Yeah, because before BBL's, ladies just had to starch their muscles. BBL, Brazilian butt lift. Yes. Yes, Norm.

Welcome to the program. I was like, big, beautiful lips, BBLs. James was mostly great. He was smart. He had endless energy. He had a good heart. But also, he could be a little annoying. He was pretty sure he had noble blood in him.

And he really enjoyed looking good and riding fancy horses. And he was confident that he knew best. And the irritating thing is that he often did know best, but you know, nobody wants to hear that shit. Yeah, no one likes a bragger. Well, here's the funny thing. I don't know that he was really a bragger. It's just that... Someone's right all the time. It gets old.

Yeah, and they're just... I hear about it all the time. People get sick of me because I'm right. all the time. Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah. We all know it.

I've lost many friends. And it's all their fault, right? Yeah. No, the people generally liked him, but self-awareness was his blind spot. Oh, I hate that. Why do you hate it? It's just, I'm imagining James Reed in a Costco shopping in the middle of the aisle and not moving. He's not self-aware that other people shop in this store.

Everyone. I know. you're a big fan of the show, you know, this is not the first time Norm has mentioned this specific thing. It's clearly a thing for him. But yeah, you do hate it when people are not aware of their surroundings, aware of how they might be coming across to others. Yeah, it's just infuriating. It's like, we're living in a society as George Costanza. I'm trying to get to the samples of hot dogs. Please move aside. So, yeah, in a Costco, he stood in the middle of the aisle and said, I don't know. He calls his wife. He says, I don't know what to get. And he just stands there.

Breaks my heart. And in a more real sense, he didn't really notice how he came across to people, especially people who weren't impressed by wealth or status. And in the storytelling biz, we call that foreshadowing. In addition to being wealthy, James was also very well connected. he'd volunteered for the Black Hawk War in 1832. Hey, so did Abraham Lincoln. Norm. We're going to take that again. We're going to take that again.

We are? Yes. He'd volunteered for the Black Hawk War in 1832. I'm so sorry. Did I spoil your story? Yes. Yes. I know too much.

I'm sorry. God damn it. We might leave this in. You know, my fear. when covering this. I thought about this today as I was rehearsing. I was like, what are the chances that Norm is going to be like the kid in class

whose hyperfixation is the thing the teacher is teaching about that day? And he just, his hand is up all the time. Oh, I'm like this. The teacher is midway through the first sentence. And he's like, oh, you haven't talked about. Yeah, we definitely have to keep this in. That's what we call a premature effectulation. No shit.

I'm about to bust. He volunteered for the Black Hawk War in 1832, which put him shoulder to shoulder norm with quite a cast of characters. Including Stephen A. Douglas, who you might remember from the Lincoln Douglas debate. Abraham Lincoln, who you might remember from the Lincoln Douglas debate.

And who could forget James Climann. I did. I had to Google him. But the good news is that James Clyman does have a Wikipedia page where he is described as a mountain man. And if you think that's not going to come up later, Billy, are you wrong? Hey, I don't appreciate you saying Abraham Lincoln from the Lincoln Douglas to be. I feel like he did a lot more than just debate some short little man. Norm, I'm going to be honest with you.

I included that joke because I knew it would anger you. That's funny. Well, mission accomplished. Someone who has cemented their place in history to be like, oh, you probably know him from this tidy little thing. I mean, that's kind of how he got famous, so it's okay to mention that. And that's how most people know Abraham Lincoln. That is not true. That's how everyone knows him.

They say, Abe Lincoln, the guy from the Stephen Douglas debate? No, I don't think so. Show the man some respect, Kristen. I do every night when I kiss his poster before I go to bed. All this to say that James Reed was well-connected, was very good friends with Abraham Lincoln, which is news to Norm, and he was killing it as a businessman until oopsies, it all went to shit. See, in 1837, there was a lot of talk about bringing a railroad to Illinois.

Woo-hoo! Doot! Beep, beep. I'm sorry. Why couldn't you give me a sound for that, Chris? I don't know. It came to me just then, like a locomotive. And James Reed thought he was so lucky because he won a contract to construct part of that railroad.

It was a huge deal. It was going to make him richer and more influential than ever. He built a mill and hired a bunch of people to start making all the wooden ties that they'd need when the railroad was ready to be constructed. And hey, hey, hey, hey, don't worry, it's definitely going to be constructed. Ah, good old speculation. And because he had that mill, and because he was employing all those people and doing such important work, they named the settlement where they were living Jamestown, after James Reed. Where have I heard James Town before?

Nowhere. And if you thought James Reed was a little aristocratic and annoying before he invested in the railroad, imagine him when he's living in a town that is named after. after him. Can you imagine? He probably thought he was the bees' knees. You couldn't tell me shit if we lived in Christenville. Would you call it Kristenville? Well, the people would decide. Or Kristenberg? Ew, no, definitely not Berg. I don't know why, but I really don't like it. Kristen Town. Christen... Christenville. Christonville does make the most sense. Yeah, thank you. Yeah. Normville? Well, see, there's a Norman, Oklahoma, so maybe I would just call the village Norman. Maybe you should just move to, I like how I said you, as if we wouldn't go together.

You kicking me out? Wow. You kicking me out. And I'm keeping the Abraham Lincoln poster. Fuck. You can keep Stephen Douglas. I don't want a fucking Stephen Douglas poster. That guy sucked.

I have a lot to say about him. Future topic? I would be interested. Yeah, I think I would do a Stephen Douglas episode. Because I literally only know him from the. Lincoln-Douglas debates. Kristen. Yes.

Norman. He is the huge moron asshole. Okay. Who came up with the Kansas Nebraska Act where it was like, oh, slavery in new territories, let's just have the people decide. And then it's a proxy war. You have all these, you know, pro-slavery people moving there, all the anti-slavery people moving there.

And yeah, they start fighting each other. There's illegal voting. We talked about this in the John Brown. I'm remembering, I'm sorry, I was there. I was fully there. Even though it was already established law. Do you like that I'm chopping my hands here? No, keep going, yes.

It was already established law. Which territories would have slavery and which ones would not have slavery? They just threw it all out. Uh-huh. Because Southerners were pooping in their diapers, okay? We want Swaye-Wave-Wi. Sway, a wee. It's almost cute when you hear it like that, and that's why it's so dangerous.

Norm, here's what I love about your big, beautiful brain. You've got all of that, but also the Patreon bonus episode that we just recorded was about the pet rock. And you learned everything there was to learn about the pet rock. Sure. That's my job, baby. I don't know that it is. It is. That's what this podcast is.

I tell you everything I know about a topic. It was fascinating. Yeah, for those on the $10 tier, you can see our pet rock here, right here on the shelf, which is named Perry Masonry, although I almost named him Mel Gibstone after Kristen's favorite actor. He is not my favorite actor. How fucking dare you? It's a running joke.

So life was good for James Reed. So good. But then came the panic of 1837. Ah! Is that how we play? I'm sorry. That was so rude. You know. Cod like a crow. It was, well, there's something funny to me about panic of 1837, you know. Great Depression. Now that's just, I get that. That's just sad. But panic can be a little. Yeah, there were many panics in the 1800s. They all, they were all called panics.

Mm-hmm. At the disco, everywhere. Ha-ha. That was a great joke. Please. Please. Please. Yes. Thank you. The railroad deal fell apart. James tried to at least keep the mill going, but maybe he tried a little too hard. He mortgaged the mill. He mortgaged his other properties. He ran up debt. And by 1846, he had lost everything he'd built. It was humiliating. His property was foreclosed. An inventory of all of his possessions was printed up and put up for public sale. His personal life wasn't going great either. Several years earlier, he'd gotten engaged to a woman named Elizabeth Keyes, but she died from cholera, or as we call it in my family, the pee-but-pooze. Is that what a cholera is? Yeah, it's diarrhea. It's a terrible way to go.

What's the difference between cholera and dysentery? I actually don't know. Let's look it up. Cholera and dysentery are both gastrointestinal illnesses causing diarrhea, but they differ in their causative agents. Watery diarrhea. Sorry, this isn't funny. It's a little funny.

It's a little funny. Deadly if untreated. Rapid dehydration. That chocolate rain will get you every time. Hot brown rain is what they call it. Now, Norm, I know we just talked about diarrhea, and I don't know if you're ready for this story to take a romantic turn, but here we go.

Elizabeth's brother-in-law also died from the peabut poos, and as soon as the Fabrese did its thing, James Reed turned to the woman who would have been his sister-in-law if his fiancé hadn't died and said, hey, Margaret, let's get married. Oh, man, I wish I had my sound. I know. Let's get married and make a baby. Let's get married and make a baby.

Did they make babies? Oh, good grief. In the 1800s, you know they did. Like rabbits. Yeah, I guess there wasn't much to do back then. So it's like, hey, you want to have sex? Well, also birth control, you know. Oh, yeah, I guess that's true.

Well, some, maybe they didn't believe in it. You know, one of the books I read had something fascinating in there that I had never thought about. The author went into how people viewed pregnancy back in the day. And it was literally like until you felt the fetus moving around in you, like second trimester, you weren't pregnant. They didn't consider it pregnant. So in a way, you, I mean, you would know, but you wouldn't consider yourself pregnant. so maybe you'd go for a really hard horseback ride. Maybe you'd drink some strong teas.

Maybe you'd do whatever you needed to do to take care of yourself, you know. Isn't that interesting? What do you mean by do whatever you need to do to take care of yourself? I mean, it's basically an abortion, like trying to end the pregnancy, but you skip all the moral debate by truly believing I'm not pregnant until I'm well. way far into it. I see. Okay.

That is interesting. Yeah. Margaret already had a daughter, Virginia, from her first marriage. Oh, God. I always hated that song. Well, you just don't like train. I don't like train. I think we've talked about this on the podcast.

That's so weird. It's like, why would that come up multiple times? But let it be known. I do not enjoy train. I'm sorry to all you train fans out there. Beep, beep, teat, toot. Anyhow, James was a very good stepfather to Virginia, so we love him for that. We do.

And pretty soon, James and Margaret had children together. One, two, three, four. When the railroad deal collapsed and James and Margaret were certain that they would lose all of their material possessions, they were hit with another much harder loss. Their infant boy died at just 11 months old. It was terrible, and what made it worse was that they weren't sure why they were. lost their son. They just knew that he'd been sick from the moment he'd been born. Margaret mourned her infant son. She'd been sickly herself. She'd always suffered from these terrible migraines.

And in fact, on the day that she and James got married, she had to lie in bed during the ceremony. Damn. Back then, folks didn't understand a lot about diseases or how illnesses spread. But the general thought was that fresh air was the key to good health. Absolutely. And rumor had it that California was swimming in it. Hey, that's why J.C. Penny moved out west. Yeah, I think it's so funny. That was always the idea.

And it's not a bad idea. Like there's some truth to it. But it is fascinating to think about where they were living at this time. You know, malaria is, I believe it's carried by mosquitoes. And they just thought of mosquitoes as annoying. Well, they weren't wrong. Well, yeah, but like the idea that these bugs would be carrying something and making people very sick, killing people, it just didn't occur to people. I keep thinking about having a wedding in bed and I think I might enjoy that.

Why? If I got to relax and lay in bed while I got married. I don't know that she was really relaxing and having a good time. Yeah, I'm just thinking, you know, maybe it could become a tradition where people enjoy the process, you know. Yeah, and then they bang it out immediately after. Now, that would be interesting. I mean, it would be. Instead of you may kiss the bride, you may do the bride.

Wow. Norm, I think we've come up with a way to revolutionize the wedding industry as we know it. Weddings are boring these days. It's time to spice it up, folks. Yeah. Oh, from the moment I met you, I knew that. No. Get to step up.

Corinthians 17 or whatever. Oh, boy. Love is patient. Love is kind. I wondered how far you'd get. That's all I know. So, in the midst of total financial ruin and just months after their son had died, James and Margaret decided to risk everything for a fresh start.

They'd travel to California with their four children and Margaret's mother, Sarah, who, although 70 years old and in terrible health, insisted that she go along with them. I'm coming to I honestly 70 years old in 1846 adjusted for inflation this woman was 212 years old more like 2,000 years old

she could barely move but she's like oh yeah that long terrible journey you're taking me don't forget grandma also headed to California were the Donner families the Donners and the reeds were acquainted with each other but they didn't

exactly run in the same circles The Donners were farmers. They didn't care much about appearances. They'd moved around quite a bit and done pretty well for themselves, but they were risk takers. And if the stories about California were even partly true, then the rewards had to outweigh the risks. So George Donner and his wife, Tamson, their three young daughters and George's two daughters from a previous marriage, decided to make the journey. So did George's younger brother Jacob and his wife Elizabeth, and their seven children. children. Ooh. Some of them were stepkids, but you know, you get the picture. Sure. But as the Donners and Reeds prepared to depart Springfield, they made for an odd sight. For one thing, even though James Reed was dead broke on paper, he used his connections

to ensure that he and his family kept some stuff squirled away. And as a result, the Reed family wagons were loaded with the essentials and some non-essentials. Uh, this is, okay, I'm not going to spoil it. Oh, you're not. This is a part of the story I remember, and it is ridiculous, but go on. I really appreciate you holding back. I feel it's only because I roasted you so hard earlier. I'm like the kid holding his breath meme where he's like, and the veins popping on his forehead.

That's what I'm like right now inside. See, as he packed for the journey, James Reed gave a lot of thought to how he would present himself in California. So he took papers and letters of introduction from high-ranking officials because he was a big important boy. And he packed the fancy uniform in badges that he'd earned as a royal archmason. Did the uniform include a sash and gloves? Girl, you know it did! Of course it did. Ceremonial uniform, you know it.

James needed the people of California to see him not as the man who'd fallen on hard times, but as the man he knew himself to be, the man he'd been before he lost everything. He was certain that if he made it to California and presented himself the right way, he'd regain what he'd lost and so much more. So it was essential that he appear a little kingly. The Reed family wagons certainly played into that fantasy.

Yes, they did. This is the part you were thinking about, huh? Yep. It was two stories tall. It had cushioned seats and bunk beds and a built-in stove. It took eight oxen to pull it. It was extravagant and frankly, so weird-looking. James' stepdaughter Virginia would later recall nicknaming it,

the Pioneer Prairie Palace. Now, the stated logic for the Pimp My Ride Wagon Edition, was that Margaret's elderly mother would need a comfortable place to stay on the journey. But the Reed family wagon would later stand out from nearly every wagon on the trail. Well, yeah. And not in a great way. Okay, now, Norm, now that I've covered that, is there anything you'd like to add, any commentary you have on this big, beautiful wagon?

If I recall that wagon had a giant stove in it. Oh, yeah. Cast iron. A giant cast iron stove. Like the heaviest thing you could possibly put in a wagon. Okay. I just bought a new table saw. Yes.

And it is partly made of cast iron. Uh-huh. It is the heaviest damn thing. Had to get brother-in-law Jay over to help me bring it down to the basement. Yeah, it sat in our entryway for like weeks. Yeah, because like I said earlier in the episode, I don't have any friends because I'm just so smart and right all the time. And so I had to get my brother-in-law to come over and help me carry it down.

And so that weighed a ton. I can't imagine a whole damn stove made of cast iron. I'm just thinking these oxen are like, oh, fuck, I got to haul this thing. I really can't imagine having a wagon like this. Out, out on the trail, it's important that people like you, like critical that they like you and that they won't. you to be part of their wagon train, and here you show up with the biggest, heaviest, most obnoxious wagon. Yeah, when you have to think you want to be efficient in your journey. Yes.

This is not efficient in any way. This is, oh gosh, what is it? This is like driving a Hummer on the road. Sure. It's like in those movies where the kids trying to get rid of the stepmom, and so they go out camping, and the stepmoms wearing all the fancy clothes. That's exactly what this is. Yeah.

And she's like, oh, family movie in the 90s knows exactly what this is. Yes. Do you remember we were hiking in Colorado? Hashtag Colorado Day August 1st. And we were hiking to this place called Gem Lake, very popular trail.

Yep. There was literally a line on the trail. And the reason there was a line was there is a woman hiking and she was worried about getting her shoes muddy. Yeah, okay. It's funny. I thought that story was going to come up in next week's episode because we're going to get to people going too slow on this effing trail and how other people felt about it. But truly, I'm thinking back to how annoyed everyone was on that trail. So that trail was one of those trails where, you know, if you wanted to do a short hike, you could. If you wanted to stay on it, you could go longer. So you've got people of kind of all levels on this trail, which ironically is kind of kind of. of like this California Trail, the Oregon Trail. You've got all sorts of people on this trail going different speeds, what have you. And yes, there was a family on the trail that Norman and I were on.

They were holding everyone up because they were walking so carefully. And the woman complained that she had gotten mud on her shoes. And her adult son said to her, well, look at my shoes. They look terrible. and everyone until that point had been polite, but you know, we were all kind of on edge. And finally, one dude was like, if you don't like mud, I've got bad news about what's ahead of you.

The whole damn trail had mud on it. It's a hike. It's a hike. The snow had been melting for weeks now. So, yeah, there was a lot of mud on the trail. But some people, I was like, just don't go hiking. I'm sorry. Expect to get mud on your shoes if you go hiking, okay?

So, yeah, the Reed family had this ridiculous wagon. By contrast, the donners were more normal. Their one-story wagons were loaded primarily with practical items. Imagine that. Food, tools, supplies, clothes, books. And though they didn't look like they had money, they carried plenty of it. They hid it on their bodies. They stitched 10 grand into a quilt.

They had everything they thought they'd need. But it was tough to say goodbye to some of their more sentimental possessions. For example, George Donner was pretty upset when he realized that he couldn't pack the cannonball that had been in his family since the Revolutionary War. Oh, not the cannonball. How the hell did he get a cannonball? I can't remember if it was his father or maybe it was his grandfather who had fought in the Revolutionary War and I guess took a souvenir home and even though they'd moved a ton.

They always kept the cannonball. And this was like the one time where it was like, okay, we can't take a freaking cannonball on this journey. Isn't that interesting how we hold on to stuff like that? I totally get it. A family heirloom or something. I mean, that's a big deal. To have a relative who fought in that war and to have something from it. Like, I totally understand, even though it's weird to have a cannonball.

Like, I understand why that would mean something. Yeah. There's a French writer from around this time named Alexis de Tocqueville. Mm-hmm. And he wrote a awesome book about America, his observations of America. Uh-huh. And one of the things he wrote is that Americans cling to their possessions as if assured they will never die. Oh, wow. Yeah.

Oh, shit. And so, yeah, him trying to carry this damn cannonball to California. Do other societies not do that? Because I've been thinking lately that, like, I want to declutter. But it's weirdly hard for me. And I don't feel like I'm the type to have a bunch of stuff. But I think it's like I'm getting older and stuff just piles up, you know. I would say Americans are much more materialistic.

Sure, sure. Have way more obsessions. I've never seen an episode of hoarders that didn't take place in the United States. Well, that's because they couldn't get the UK edition off the ground norm. That's a show Kristen will not watch with me. Yeah, it is tough. It's too sad and also it's gross. Like we used to watch that show and then you actually helped out with the hoarding situation in real life.

And after that, you could no longer watch the show. Yeah, it was too real after that. Yeah. But I remember, ironically, I was very glad to have seen that show before. because before that I had no idea that hoarding was a thing. I mean, it was, it was horrifying enough to see it myself, but at least having watched the show,

I felt like I had some kind of introduction as like, yes, this is a thing that can happen to people. Yeah. But, oh, rough times. Mm-hmm. Everyone, yeah, my family helped out a relative who was in a hoarding situation, and we were a little unprepared for what

that would look like. And so as soon as we got home, we knew we couldn't, like, we weren't going to, like, wash our clothes and wear them again. So we all went to separate corners of the garage and stripped fully nude. I missed this event. I was out of town. Yeah. You were very lucky that day.

My mom kept screaming, no one look at me. Don't look at me. Has if everyone was like, oh, good. Finally. Finally. We get to take a peek at Chererey. We've been waiting. I've always wanted to see my mom naked and now's my chance. Hey, this episode's taking a weird turn.

Yeah, let's get back to Mr. Donner's cannonball that he can't take with him. I also should say, I made fun of the reads a little bit with what they brought, but they also brought, of course, practical things as well. Yeah, yeah, of course. Just a little extra. They were a little extra. When you pack the gloves and the sash, it's a little extra. Yeah. So they made these sacrifices, but it would all be worth it, right? It had to be.

The sacrifices were hard and their futures were uncertain, but they all had so much hope. The day before they were scheduled to leave Springfield, they all held a party to say goodbye to their friends. They toasted one another and promised that months later, on July 4th at high noon, when they were far, from home and out plodding along the trail, that they'd turn and face Springfield and raise a glass. Their friends in Springfield promised to do the same, raising their glasses to the west. They'd be connected in that way. That night, the festivities died down. All that was left to do was rest for the long journey ahead.

But Margaret Reed woke up early that morning. With nearly everyone else still asleep, she made her way to the cemetery. She needed one last moment with the little boy she'd lost just a few months earlier. It seemed horrible to leave her son alone in the ground, in a place she knew she'd never see again. The only thing that made it tolerable was that the baby boy had been buried next to his grandfather. So, before the start of that long journey out west, Margaret said goodbye to her son and her father. She'd never see their graves again, but at least they'd be together. And hopefully, her new life in California would be all that people said it would be.

Maybe she would have good health. Maybe her children would have good health. No more debilitating headaches. No more hardship. Later that morning, the three families headed out for Independence, Missouri, a city that had become known as the Queen City of the Trails. It was where most folks started. their journey out west. The reeds were ready. So were the Donners. They didn't know what lay ahead of them,

but they had a copy of Lanceford Hastings book to help guide them along the way. In the next episode of an old-timey podcast, they get started on the trail and no one thinks that the Reed family's two-story wagon is cool. Folks ask questions like, why are you slowing us down? Who brought the old lady? And also, How the hell am I supposed to cross this river? Then life on the trail gets real. There's a wedding, two funerals, and a couple fistfights. Stay tuned. The really bad stuff won't be an episode two.

We're in for a wacky adventure on the trails. Yeah, that would be hard to leave buried family members. Because back then, yeah, you usually buried your family on your property and you assumed you would just stay there the rest of your life. So, yeah, leaving them would be very hard, I bet. I think it would even be hard today. But I think there's something especially about an infant to have them for such a short period of time and then bury them and leave the area. Yeah, you would be thinking, thank God I have my father buried next to him.

That would be a comfort. By the way, plaque alert. Oh, yeah? Yeah, there's a plaque in. downtown Springfield that just says like this is where the Donner Party started their journey. Yeah. Yeah. I took a picture of it when I was in Springfield a couple years ago.

I'll put it on the video version. All right. Yeah. I did want to add something that I didn't have in here. It's about Abraham Lincoln, who I know you're somewhat familiar with. Yes. I want to include this because it does get shared sometimes. So one of the children who was on this journey, I believe she was eight years.

old when they took off. Much later in life, she gave an interview where she said that Abraham Lincoln had considered going on this journey with them, coming, moving out west. Yeah, thank you. Sounds like a bunch of bullshit to me, but go on. Norm's, Norm's making that face. I just want to say, I did not include that because that does sound like bullshit to me. I don't think a child would have been, you know, really privy to that. But it is true that Mary Todd Lincoln had, had a relative who was out west. James Reed also had a relative out west. And Abraham Lincoln did express interest in the West,

but he had a political career to think about. I was going to say, I think he was serving in the U.S. House of Representatives at that time. I believe you're right. Yeah. So just throwing that out there, you know, it's mentioned that, oh, Abraham Lincoln was almost part of the Donner Party. And I just kind of think, well, it's a good story.

A great YouTube video, Kristen. Lincoln and the Donner Party? The thumbnail. Oh. Well, Kristen, you've set us up for an interesting journey. Yeah, it's going to, I don't know, I'm fascinated by this. I really kind of have already fallen in love with some of the people. Obviously not Lanceford Hastings.

That guy can eat a dick, you know. Yeah. Yep, we don't like them. Weirdly, that is cannibalism. Hmm, how fitting. It's all going to come back around. Wow, a daughter party joke. Very good, Chris.

I'm sorry. That's why we have the rim shot, okay? Yeah, okay. People can't get mad. You can literally say anything. And the rim shot. We'll take care of it. But no, I'm excited for this series.

Me too. When you told me you were going to do this, I know. I was like, whoo, good luck, my dear. Okay. Kind of one of those intimidating. Topics. Yeah, I'm intimidated. Is that your butt?

It was my belly. Oh, my God. Something's going on over here. Boy, we're going to have to wrap up. Don't know if the mic picked that up. Oh, if it didn't, there's a problem with the mic. I don't even know what I was thinking. Oh, yeah, yeah.

Our mic's busted. No, I was just going to say it would be intimidating enough as it is, but the fact that you are an expert in this topic, I really, Norm, Norm, you kind of are. You have a very good... I have general knowledge of the Donner party. No. An expert is a little much. Norm, I'm the one who, like, I can tell a story on a podcast. I can know almost everything for one week only.

And then once I do, it's gone. It's gone, baby. But you, you, like, once you learn something, it really stays in the noggin. Wow, thank you. I wish my bowling skills were retained. Oh, everyone. Do you want to talk about your bowling? Folks, I joined a bowling league about eight weeks ago.

No, I guess 11 weeks ago. Yeah, me and some buddies decided to join a bowling league. And when I first started, I thought this is going to suck. I have not bowled much in my life. We found out the league was like three months long. We were horrified. But at that point, we had signed up. It was too late.

So, you know, I started out just like renting shoes and throwing the house balls. And I have grown to really love bowling. I think it's a ton of fun. So now I have my own shoes. I have my own bowling ball. And like I bowl on some of my off time now. Like not even on league nights. I just go to the bowling alley and throw a few games.

This is like one of my favorite things because all of you boys started out. with varying levels of enthusiasm, but you're all kind of the same in that you're all kind of competitive. So when it started and you guys all kind of sucked, it wasn't like discouraging. It was like, oh, we've got to go even harder. I mean, basically, we discover just how bad we were. Because we're in the, it's called the Beer League. So it's like, no one takes it seriously.

We're just there to have fun. It's not sanctioned or anything. But like we are clearly the worst team. Like, it's not even close, okay? But we're getting better. Uh-huh. And I'm enjoying getting better, you know. Now all the boys on the team have their own shoes.

They have their own balls. It is official, baby. Yeah. I do want to talk about me getting a bowling ball because I do think it was hilarious. Oh, it was hilarious. So initially I threw a 10-pound ball, whatever the house ball was. And I watched a video on like how disgusting house bowling balls are. Yeah, Norm's algorithm is ridiculous right now.

It's like nothing but bowling video. So I went to the bowling store. Yes, there is a bowling store here in the Kansas City area. Hashtag blessed. I walked in and I was like, I need a bowling ball. And the guy was like, well, what do you throw in right now? And I was like, oh, like a 10-pound house ball. So I guess I just need a 10-pound ball, right?

And the guy, he looks me up and down. And he goes, I think you should throw a 14-pound ball. And I was like, oh, oh, he thinks I'm like a bigger boy. Again, I don't know anything about bowling. So this guy is a like former professional player, I think. So I trust his opinion. Sure. So I got my 14 pound ball.

I tell the boys, I have my own ball. They all get a little jealous. They covet thy neighbor's goods. Naturally. Covet thy neighbor's ball. Mm-hmm. And so one of my buddies goes in and says, you know, I want a bowling ball too. This was the next day.

Next day. And the guy goes, well, what do you throw? And my buddy threw the same ball I did, 10 pounds. house ball. It's like, yeah, throw a 10 pound ball. And this time the guy, the guy looks at my buddy and goes, well, adult men throw 14 pound balls. It's like the guy had gotten tired of us 10 pound boys coming into the store. You broke this man. You broke this man. You weak, weak boys. Yeah. So then my buddy's like, well, then who throws 10 pound balls? And the guy goes, women and children throw 10 pound balls. He humiliated him.

he was shaming us you know there needs to be toxic masculinity everywhere including in bowling and I am thrilled for this yeah yeah that was a great store though it's a good bowling store well yeah

I had all my bowling needs yeah and it taught you how to be a man that's right that's right I didn't really know how to be a man until I went to that bowling store and the guy just said 14 pound ball dude

and then I showed up at home with my 14 pound ball and Kristen the panties dropped. Okay. Oh, that's enough. Bleep all of that. I did the rim shot, meaning that didn't actually happen. It was a joke.

I'm about to bust. That's what I said in that voice. Right. Just like Hank Hill. Kristen, great episode. Looking forward to the next parts. Thank you. Even though I know what's going to happen, this is an incredible story.

It really is. It's a fascinating story, and it's about the limits of the human experience. Or, I don't know. I don't even know how to say it. I guess how we all behave when we're pushed to our limits. And it's a warning to all of you out there. Don't take a covered wagon out west and do not use Hasting shortcut. There you go.

Don't do it. Don't say we didn't warn you. Yeah. In fact, you should probably just get in your car, use Google Maps, and just navigate Let technology take care of them now that we're really thinking about it. Don't even do the wagon thing, actually. Go ahead and use a car. It might be kind of hard to get a covered wagon these days.

I'm not even sure where you'd get one. It might just take a plane to California. You know, that's the best idea. Thank you. That's the safest mode of travel. I agree. Although lately, doesn't it feel like it's dangerous to fly? Yeah, and it also feels gross.

The last time we were in an airport, I said to you, If I traveled regularly, I would have the best Instagram account ever because I would just take pictures of people doing disgusting things in airports. And it would be shame of the skies or something would be my hand. Shame of the skies. I saw multiple people with their shoes off in the airport. One lady, you know, we're all crammed together, living in a society, in those, you know, seats that are facing one. another, even though we don't want to face one another. Yeah.

She had her suitcase in front of her. Her feet propped up on top of the suitcase, stanky toes out for all to see. And of course, there's the person across from her, you know, mere inches just looking like they wanted to end it all. Were they stanky? I don't care if they stink or not. Don't put your feet in some stranger's face unless they have paid for the privilege or it's I'm kind of weird kink shame on a time podcast.

I'm saying if it's a kink, then go do that. But if it's not, then put your feet away. I agree. Seeing bare feet in an airport is something. Disgusting. Seeing people wearing shorts at the airport. It's kind of disgusting. Depends on the shorts.

I mean, because when you sit in the airplane seat, the shorts start bunching up and then you just see a little too much. Don't know if I need to see all this. Do you remember that was the trip where we were kind of in the last row on that one flight? I spoke too loudly. We were kind of in the last row on one flight waiting to get off the plane. On a huge plane. Yeah. And the flight attendants were kind of clear now and they were, and one of them opened the bathroom in the back.

And she just goes, holy moly. I think somebody blew it up back there. Okay. You're telling a different story than I thought you were telling. That, yes, we, I do remember the holy moly, because it's like to shock a flight attendant, I think you have to like have done something really horrendous in that bathroom. Yeah, they had to open like the rear hatch of the plane to air it out. Something happened back there.

So. We skedaddled. I thought you were referring to, okay, when we flew back home and, you know, it was like a million degrees. in Kansas City, they de-board the plane and of course all the air goes off were just back at the back of this very packed plane. No air.

Yeah. And it became clear to me in that moment that someone had decided to take off their shoes. Dear God. And I said a little too loudly, I love it when they cut the air.

That's right. You did. Because here's my thing. I think if people are going to take their shoes off, I will play the role of creep. Oh. Yeah. Ooh. Ooh, you took your shoes off? Mm, I love it.

Oh, oh, what? What? You're putting your shoes back on? Oh, no. Oh, please, please. Oh, come on. Oh, the show ended early, huh? Good feet.

That's what you say. That's what you say. Good feet. Okay, should we wrap this up? This is ridiculous. Let's wrap it up. Kristen, you know what they say about history hoes. We always cite our sources.

That's right. For this episode, I got my information from the books, The Indifferent Stars Above, the harrowing saga of a Donner Party bride by Daniel James Brown. And The Best Land Under Heaven, the Donner Party in the Age of Manifest Destiny by Michael Wallace. And the documentary, The Donner Party. Plus more, check the show notes for a full list of our sources.

That's all for this episode. Thank you for listening to an old-timey podcast. Please give us a five-star review wherever you listen to podcasts. And while you're at it, subscribe. Support us on Patreon at patreon.com slash old-timey podcast. Join the Reddit community, our slash old-timey podcast. Follow us on Facebook and YouTube and Instagram at Old Timey Podcast. You can also follow us individually on Instagram.

I'm at Kristen Pitts-Keruso and he's at Gaming Historian. And until next time, Tudaloo, Tata, and you. Cheerio! Bye!