An Old Timey Podcast - 67: The Donner Party Falls Apart (Part 3)

Episode Date: August 13, 2025

By the time they realized what they’d done, it was too late. Hastings Cutoff turned out to not be much of a cutoff at all. In fact, it was more time consuming and taxing than the regular California Trail. As a result, members of the Donner Party grew hungry. They grew thirsty. Their oxen, horses and dogs suffered. Some died. Some ran away. They ran low on time. People snapped at one another. The group knew that they’d have to do something desperate to survive. So, they sent a few men ahead. They prayed the men would come back with help – before it was too late.Remember, kids, history hoes always cite their sources! For this episode, Kristin pulled from: “The Indifferent Stars Above: The Harrowing Saga of a Donner Party Bride,” by Daniel James Brown“The Best Land Under Heaven: The Donner Party in the Age of Manifest Destiny,” by Michael WallisThe documentary, “The Donner Party”“How the Donner Party was doomed by a disastrous shortcut,” by Erin Blakemore for History.com“Lansford Hastings, the Donner Party, and the Civil War,” by Elizabeth Eisenstark for the National Museum of Civil War Medicine“The deadly temptation of the Oregon Trail shortcut,” by Laura Kiniry for atlasobscura.comAre you enjoying An Old Timey Podcast? Then please leave us a 5-star rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts!Are you *really* enjoying An Old Timey Podcast? Well, calm down, history ho! You can get more of us on Patreon at patreon.com/oldtimeypodcast. At the $5 level, you’ll get a monthly bonus episode (with video!), access to our 90’s style chat room, plus the entire back catalog of bonus episodes from Kristin’s previous podcast, Let’s Go To Court.

Hear ye, hear ye. You are listening to an old-timey podcast. I'm Kristen Caruso. And I'm Norman Caruso. And on this episode, I'll be talking about the Donner Party, part three. Kristen, I have a, you know, I kind of know this story. And I have a feeling this episode is where shit starts going bad. Yeah.

You know, we had some fun in episodes one and two. And I would be lying to you if I said that episode three was going to be just a fun fun little time for us. It's going to get worse, folks, okay? But wait, wait, just a minute. Next week's episode, even worse. Don't worry, it gets worse. As Newfound Glory once said, it's all downhill from here.

Well, how about I start this episode off with some incredibly good. Good news. Uh, please do. Okay, so after our last episode, Kristen, we got quite a few comments from some history hos who also had a strange obsession with Henry Clay in high school. Yeah, what the hell was that about? Are all of our listeners weirdos? Yes.

Have we been the weirdo magnets because we are weirdos ourselves and now it's just a big mess? Yes. We are weirdo magnets. Well, anyway, I felt very seen by all these history. Hose coming out of the woodwork. Yep. You know, one listener said their teacher used to call Henry Clay the biggest loser because he ran for president three times and he lost every time.

Oh. Ouch. Yeah, three times might be too many. Tell that to Henry Clay or Ralph Nader. Oh, okay. I think Nader ran three times. Well, and Henry Clay's still around. So, of course, I'll be able to ask him probably tomorrow when I see him.

Henry Clay is definitely a future topic. And if you'd like to support a small, sexy, independent podcast that dares to cover a huge loser like Henry Clay. Head on over to patreon.com slash old-timey podcast. If you just want a little nibble of us, consider becoming a non-threatening fan. For just $5 a month, you'll get access to our monthly bonus episodes with full video and you get to chitty chat in the Discord. But if you're ready to go all the way, it's time to get in on that $10 pig butter investor tier. You'll get bonus episodes, sign card and stickers, early ad-free video episodes, access to our monthly trivia, 10% off all merch, and ad-free episodes of Kristen's old decrepit rotting podcast. Let's go to court. They call it the Henry Clay of podcasts.

That's quite a compliment. So head on over to patreon.com slash old-timey podcast to sign up. Thanks. And Kristen, take it away. Woo. Okay, here we go. Are you ready for a bad time? Yeah. Do you need a previously on?

Girl, you know I do. Girl, you know I do. Millie Vanilly. Any Millie Vanilly fans out there? Anyway. Previously, on an old-timey podcast. The members of the Donner Party were worried. They'd fared well for the first four months of their journey,

but they were still a week behind schedule. They knew they'd have to hurry if they wanted to make it to the Sierra, Nevada Mountains before snow fell. So, suddenly the brand new shortcut being touted by an irresponsible douche canoe named Lanceford Hastings held extra appeal. One man tried to warn them against it. He told them that the shortcut, in fact, was not a shortcut at all. He warned them that it would take them through Weber Canyon. They'd be surrounded by walls of rock. And then they'd travel 80 miles through the Great Salt Lake Desert with no water. And to make the journey even tougher,

they'd be in wagons. They'd be in wagons without an established trail to follow. The man said the group might die if they took the shortcut. The Dondrum Party was unmoved by the man's advice. Later, when they learned that Lanceford Hastings, that's right, the Lanceford Hastings, was waiting at Fort Bridger offering to personally escort emigrants through his new shortcut.

Well, the Reed family, Both Donner families plus six other families and 16 single dudes said, Okay. They rushed ahead to Fort Bridger, ready to meet the Lansford Hastings, only to discover that he'd already left with a different group of emigrants. But he'd left behind instructions saying that anyone who wanted to join his party should just haul ass and catch up. James Reed and George Donner were discouraged, but the men who ran the trading post offered words of his.

encouragement. They told them to follow Lanceford Hastings. The shortcut was great. Not only would it save them hundreds of miles, but they'd also be on a better trail really when you think about it. And also that desert, eh, hey. It's only like 40 miles. Get a real problem.

False. The men were lying, but unaware that they had been deceived. And unaware that Lanceford Hastings was so full of shit that his cue tips came out poopy, the Donner Party set up. on the trail as fast as they could, excited to catch up to the Lansford Hastings.

In this week's episode, the Donner Party falls apart. That was a great Q-tip joke. Thank you. I'm not going to lie to you. I laughed at my own joke as I wrote. Yeah, that was good. Q-tips coming out poopie. Yeah, got shit coming out of your ears, buddy. Woo-hoo! It was so exciting. the Donner Party was heading down the shortcut.

Oh, wow, all those other suckers who stuck to the regular California Trail were heading up to Idaho, of all places, where they would then dip into a bit of Utah, cross through Nevada, then hit California. What a bunch of dummies. Lansford Hastings' very own Hastings cutoff would shave 200 miles, 300 miles? You know what? You know, let's call it 400 miles off the journey. Well, let's just call it 500. Sure, why not. Actually, a thousand miles.

By taking Hastings cut off, the Donner Party would show up in California like a month ahead of all their little friends who'd been too chicken shit to take the shortcut. Oh, man, everybody was pumped. Everyone except George Donner's wife, Tamsin Donner. She, frankly, was being a bit of a pill about the whole thing. You know, I mentioned in last week's episode that Tamsin thought that the Shepin thought that the shortcut was a bad idea. She was kind of rude, said Lanceford Hastings was a selfish adventurer. But here's the thing. It is very important to not listen to haters or women. And Tamsin was both. So everyone just kept on trucking. And honestly, for about a week, they made decent progress through

the mountains. The one hiccup, and it was a big hiccup, was that almost right away, 13-year-old Eddie Breen fell off his horse and broke his leg. And of course, everyone freaked out. Man, pretty common, huh? Falling off wagons and horses and... Yeah, I mean, also I feel like kids break stuff a lot. I mean, yeah, they do. They break other people's stuff and their own stuff.

That's not what I'm doing. I mean, bones usually. But, you know, it's... These days, you rarely die from a broken leg. That's true. Did you have a kid growing up in your school that broke their arm or leg in gym class? There was always one kid. I was so jealous of anyone on crutches.

I wanted to be on crutches so bad. And I realized that's a shitty thing to say. But I'm just telling you what Kristen was jealous of. It's the sixth grade. You wanted it. Did you want the cast? Yeah, I wanted the cast. But I specifically wanted to be on crutches because then you got assigned a buddy to open your doors for you and you got all this attention.

You wanted the attention. Definitely. Gotcha. What did you want? Well, I didn't want to be in crushes or a cast. Yeah, me neither. That's a weird thing to want. Oh, that sucks.

They broke their leg or arm. Yeah. And we're revealing a lot about our psychology. Anyway, so this kid breaks his leg. The boys' parents sent word to Fort Bridger that they needed a mountain man to come amputate the boy's leg. Ard. No, that's not Norman.

No. You need to learn how to make mountain man sounds, not pirate sounds. not pirate sounds. What would a mountain man sound like then? I don't know. You're the one given sound effects to us. How about that? Yeah, probably.

But when that mountain man showed up, covered in tobacco juice, and brandishing a meat saw, little Eddie Breen was like, no, no, no way. I listened to last week's episode of an old-timey podcast and I remember what happened to Enoch Garrison.

That might not be a direct quote, but he did remember what happened to Enoch Garrison. and he was like, I do not want someone to amputate my leg. Yeah, no way. That's brutal. And so his parents sent the mountain man away, and they did their best to clean Eddie's leg and set the bones back in place. And then they did what they had to do. They kept moving.

They needed to catch up to Lanceford Hastings and the big group of immigrants he was leading. So they followed in their wagon tracks, and after about a week, they reached the top of Weber Canyon in the Wasatch Mountains. And it was there at the top of that canyon that they spotted something in a bush. It was a note, a note from the Lansford Hastings.

Left a note in a bush? Where else was he going to leave it? I don't know, under a rock. I feel like it might blow away if it's just sitting in a bush. But you got to see it. The note was disconcerting. It told them not to go any further. It informed them that Weber Canyon was, you're not going to believe it, really tough to get through in a wagon.

Oh. Turns out that the canyon was really steep and super narrow. Who knew? Evidently not the dude who had invented the shortcut and told everyone to come use it. Well, wait a minute. He rode it on horseback in the beautiful month of May, and he said it was a great shortcut. Yeah, he's an idiot and a terrible man, and I hate him. Yeah, with a big, big ass forehead.

Yeah, that sucks. So they're already a week in. Yes. And someone's like, turn around. Not turn around yet. Not turn around. I'm not even finished. Yeah, just stay put.

I'm not finished with a note. Norma. You know what? You kind of interrupted the Lansford Hastings. So I'm going to ask you to sit and think about that for a minute. Yeah. Man, I'm going to have to be feeling a lot of shame for this. Yeah.

Anyway, continue. The note included a new plan. And the new plan was essentially this. Stay right where you are. Except, you know, one of you should hustle up ahead and come get me, and then I, that's right, I, the Landsford Hastings, will come back to your group and personally escort you all on a much better path. What? Don't worry, don't worry, I totally know a great path. It's better than all the other paths, and I am not pulling any of this out of my poop chute.

Don't worry, I'm a great guy. Where are they going to go? They're in a canyon, right? They're at the top of the canyon right now, right now. So where the hell are they going to go? Well, they don't know, but Lanceford Hastings definitely knows, Norm. Okay, he's definitely not making shit up as he goes. Oh, my God.

It's at this point where you're like, just turn around. Yes. You lost a week. No big deal. Just turn around. Go back to the fort. You can resupply again. Yeah.

And then go to the normal route. This dude wants them to wait in the canyon. Norm, you're bringing up a great point. already, which is, and of course they don't know this, they're already panicked because they were already a week behind, which felt uncomfortable, which was the thing that kind of pushed them to do this shortcut. Now they've spent another week getting to the top of this canyon, and now they're being told, we're going to go a different way. They feel like they're in too deep. We know that they are not in too deep, but they feel it. Now, I will say, you might be wondering, hmm,

That other group must have had a really hard time getting through Weber Canyon for Lanceford Hastings to suddenly alter his brand new shortcut. Be funny if they came across Lanceford Hastings like hanging by his ankles on a tree like, get me down. They struck me up. Punished him. Norm, it's interesting you mentioned that. What do you think happened? First of all, do you remember this part? Because I know you remember a lot of the story and you want to just take over.

Not quite. I want to say public spanking for Lanceford Hastings, but I could be off on that. He certainly deserved it. Let's see what happened. See, Lanceford was leading that big group through Weber Canyon, and they were on incredibly rocky terrain, terrain not even remotely suited for wagons. And on top of that, Lancford didn't know the area very well, because after all, as you just pointed out, He'd only been on his own shortcut one time, and it had been on horseback.

So the wagon train had moved through Weber Canyon, and of course, you know, it wasn't easy to get the oxen moving. And it also wasn't easy to get the oxen to stop. And at one point, some oxen were pulling a wagon and they went over a cliff. Oh, my God. The cliff was roughly 75 feet high. The oxen and the wagon sailed through the air. It was terrifying. people jumped out of the way screaming.

It was unreal. By some miracle, no people were hurt. But after that, the group had to work together to essentially carry their wagons through the canyon. So the oxen died? Well, yeah. That's sad. Buddy, if you think that's sad.

I know. Okay. I know. I have a soft spot for innocent animals. Sure, sure. Plunging off of Weber Canyon because of this douchebag. Well, and that's why Lansford had another plan. It was, you know, obviously there was the idea of let's do a new trail, but also he came up with parachutes for oxen.

No, no. Poor taste, Kristen. The problem was the oxen just couldn't really figure out how to use the parachute. It's not that it was a dumb idea. Blaming the victims, I see. Very common among the Kristen Nightgarde. Wow. Anyway, continue.

So that was certainly a sight that no one forgot. And Lansford was trying to avoid that for future groups. When the Donner Party read Lansford's note, they were stunned. What the hell was happening? What would the rest of this journey be like? But what could they do? Turn around. I wish.

They'd been a week behind schedule when they started this shortcut. And now they'd spent an additional week on the shortcut. And I'm guessing the term sunk cost fallacy hadn't been invented yet. So the group decided that they would follow the instructions in Lansford's note. I know we're judging this based on, you know, we already know what's going to happen. But damn, it just sucks. I think what sucks about it is it makes perfect sense to me. Yeah.

If I felt like I was already behind, well, I'm this way with everything. I have trouble getting rid of anything because I'm like, well, if I get rid of, of it, then that means I didn't use it, and then I'm bad. So I'll just hang on to this thing forever and ever and ever, amen. It doesn't make any sense. Yeah, no, I get it. I get it. But yeah, they've spent all this time, and it's just unthinkable to them that they would turn back. Now, that's the thing I totally understand why they decided to just keep going. So it was decided. The group would stay put, and three men would run ahead and catch Lansford. The three volunteers were James Reed.

We already know James Reed. He was the guy with the fancy wagon, the once successful businessman, the guy who sometimes rubbed people the wrong way by being too bossy. Let's see how that plays out in this episode, shall we? By the way, I keep confusing James Reed in this story with James Reed from the kidnapping of Nell Donnelly. I know. You know, Nell Donnelly's lover. We all know. They share dog run.

Yeah. Very sexy. But yes, this is just another James Reed. Another one. So James Reed's going. Who else is going, Kristen? Charles Stanton. Charles Stanton was a short king at just 5 foot 5, and he was single.

He'd been hired as a teamster for George and Tampson Donner. Charles was a helper. He was agreeable, and he loved Lanceford Hastings. In fact, four months earlier when he was in Independence, Missouri, ready to start the journey out west, He wrote to his family that if they wanted to know why he was headed to California, all they had to do was get themselves a copy of Lancford Hastings' book. Once they read it, they'd understand why he needed to be in California. And then there was William Pike.

William Pike was on the trail with his wife and their two daughters, but he was also on the trail with his extended family, 13 people total, all headed up by a 36-year-old widow named Levina Murphy. And I would like us all to stop and think about being a 36-year-old widow traveling the California Trail with your two adult daughters and their husbands and their families, plus five of your own small children. 36 years old! 36.

They packed a lot of life into their time then. He sure did. so William Pike's going on a hike. Oh, you think you're cute, don't you? Boy. A little bit, yeah, yeah. I'm working with what I got, Kristen. Okay?

I'm going to give you less and less as this story goes on. Shit, all right. With that, James Reed, Charles Stanton, and William Pike set off on horseback to find Lanceford Hastings. And, wow, the terrain was rough. Incredibly rough. How the hell had anyone gotten their wagons through this? It took two full days.

When they finally caught up to Lanceford and the bigger group, the men were exhausted and frustrated. But Lanceford assured them that he could lead them on a better path than the one they just traveled. In fact, he'd take them out on it the very next day. How the hell is he going to do that? It took them two days to get there. What is wrong with you? What do you mean the next day? It's like you don't even trust Lanceford at all.

He's going to travel with them because he's a good guy and he's leading them to California to be their king or whatever. Right. but I'm saying it took those three two days to get to him. And he's like, I will lead you on the better path the next day. Well, no, he's like, hey, let's all rest up tomorrow morning. We'll start heading back. And I'm going to, do you understand how journeys work, sir? Yeah, but I just figured you have to go back and get the rest of the people.

Well, of course they're going to. Okay, okay. Listeners. I'm on edge. I'm on edge, folks. The journey had already worn William Pike and Charles. Stanton out. They needed time to rest. So the next morning, they stayed behind at camp to recover. And meanwhile, James Reed and the Lansford Hastings headed back to the rest of the Donner Party.

But, oh, gosh, you know what? It was kind of a long journey. Okay, it was kind of long. And after about a day, Lansford turned to James. It was like, hey girl, yeah, I think here, yeah, right here is where I'm going to stop. What? Because I've been thinking, and, you know, I promised that other group that I was going to lead them through the shortcut. And I'd kind of be a bad friend if I just didn't lead them, you know? Like, you get it. You get it, right? You totally do.

I can tell you do. So then he took James to the top of a mountain and was like, okay, here's the plan. Instead of taking all of you on the shortcut, I'll just point out the new route to you from up here. You know, kind of a teach Amanda fish scenario. You get it. So you'll go this way here. way there, and you can see how that'll be good, right? Okay, bye. Good luck. Goodbye. And with that, Lanceford Hastings, that irresponsible, self-serving douchebag left to go back with the other group.

And that was the last anyone in the Donner Party ever saw of him. Oh, God. Terrible person. Why couldn't he just say in his note, the terrain up ahead is not suitable for wagons, please turn around. Don't give this little promise of like, I'll show you a better route. Just say, I'm sorry, do not go this way. It's like you know nothing about this man, Norm.

He's not going to admit, hey, I've steered you wrong. He's not going to say, hey, disregard what I've said. He's going to hope you make it out on the other side and everything turns out great for him. I know the kind of guy he is, but he's like he's putting people's lives in danger. Absolutely. People.

Yeah, but what about his dream? His dream of becoming the king of California. It's like you don't give a shit about that, Norm. I don't give a shit about it, actually. James Reed made it back to the rest of the group on August 10th. He'd been gone for nearly five days. So almost a week. Yeah.

They've been waiting for this douche to catch up. up with them and they could have almost been back to the fort by now and resupplied. By that point, the group was tense. Where the hell was Lansford Hastings? What were they supposed to do now? James Reed filled them in and the group debated their next move. Interestingly, it does not appear that they ever considered retracing their steps and just getting back on the regular California trail. They felt they were in too deep. They didn't have time to go. back and it seems that the only options they considered were either going through Weber Canyon or taking this new route that Lanceford had pointed out to James Reed.

Yeah, he's like when you stop for directions and the old man in the convenience store, he's like, well, you just go down this road and then you see a red barn. You turn right at the red barn. And then after you turn right, you go about, I'd say four paces and then you take a left. I, Norm, I totally disagree with you. I think the old man in the gas station will give you very good directions because he's lived in the area his whole life and he has no reason to deceive you. Now, Lancford Hastings, that's like if you stop me and ask for directions.

I'll try my best, but I'm not going to do a good job. She's like, well, what's the name of this road run? You're going to go to my favorite Taco Bell, and then you're going to turn left at the place that I think smells funny sometimes. And then I can't be more clear. James Reed advocated for the new route. He didn't sugarcoat it. He said both of the routes look really hard.

But Weber Canyon looks damn near impossible. Ultimately, the group agreed. They'd take the new route. So they pressed on. But wow, it was tough. Tough and slow. Nothing about the shortcut was easy. The oxen became overworked.

So did the horses. so did the people. Speaking of people, whoa, where did they come from? Out of nowhere, a new family joined the Donner Party. It was the Graves family. Oh. A fitting last name if I've ever heard one. I'm going to save you with that one.

Well, yeah, I'm sorry, but for real. The Graves family consisted of a husband and wife, their adult daughter and son-in-law, plus eight young children and a teamster. Eight children? Yes. Man. It was the 1800s, you know, they didn't have fun.

stuff to do just sex. That was it. That's all we did in the 1800s. That's sex. The Graves family had been huffing and puffing trying to catch up to the Donner Party, and they'd done it. Woo! Yay! The addition of the Graves family meant that the Donner Party was now complete. They were officially 87 people with a dream of going to California

and a hope that Lansford Hastings' shortcut would ease their journey. there was comfort in being part of a large group. But they didn't all get along. A man named Louis Keseberg rubbed people the wrong way. He was traveling with his pregnant wife, Elizabeth, and the couple's young daughter. And rumor had it that he could be cruel to Elizabeth. It made people uncomfortable. And it seems that at some point James Reed had talked to him and tried to intervene.

And Lewis Kessberg didn't appreciate that one bit. Then there were people like Jacob and Doris Wolfinger. The rumor was that they were super rich. Doris wore a lot of jewelry and she had really nice clothes. And boy, did that stand out on the trail and not always in a good way. You know, that always reminds me of some of those westerns where, you know, it's a bunch of hard-nosed folks going out West. But there's like a rich English aristocratic woman in fancy clothes like, oh heavens, oh, oh my. Yeah.

Is that what it was like? it might have been. I mean, there was certainly a difference, and people did treat them differently. And yeah, I mean, that's kind of the funny thing about these trails was you had a real mix of people on them. Yeah, can I just say that Lewis Kesterberg had a pregnant wife? Imagine being pregnant while on this trail? No, thank you. I'd prefer not to.

I'd prefer to not be on the trail at all. Okay. That's fair. Great. Fair enough. And of course there were the single dudes. One such single dude was Luke Holleran. Luke was 25.

Luke Holleran? Yeah. Let me holler at you, like hollering? Yeah. I mean, that's not how you spell it, but you're pronouncing it just five. Perfect for a single dude. Yeah. I'm Luke hollering.

He'd had a business in St. Joseph, Missouri, but he'd left it because he had tuberculosis, and he believed that the California air might cure him. He'd been traveling with a family, but when Luke had. got so sick that he couldn't ride a horse, the family kicked him out of their wagon. Oh. This happened to people on the trail, and I don't understand it. I think it's so, it would be so horrible. Yeah. But Tampson and George Donner had taken that very ill young man into their wagon before they'd started the shortcut. It was an incredible act of charity. Not everyone who got

abandoned by their travel partners was so lucky. And so they traveled. Eighty-seven people. Eighty-seven people, in 22 wagons, 87 people whose names would be forever linked by what they would do to each other and what would become of them on their journey. But they didn't know that yet. And so they made their way through the Wasatch Mountain Range, then Emigration Canyon, then Echo Canyon. It took days just to go a few miles, not just because of the mountains and the canyons, but because they were all kind of creating their trail as they went. So Hastings cutoff, he was taking another group. Yeah.

And so you could think, well, I'll just follow their, you know, tracks. But Lansford sent them on a whole new route. So there's no one's ever gone this way, right? It doesn't seem like it. Presumably, no. Yeah. And the goal, of course, is to eventually catch that other wagon train. but they don't know that they will.

They hope they will. Yeah. I wonder if they came across some dead oxen. You're getting a little ahead of yourself, sir. Mountain man James Clyman had been right. The path wasn't meant for wagons. They spent valuable time, precious time, time they didn't have, and energy they didn't have,

hacking down trees and brush to make way for their wagons. It was frustrating and frightening. Every turn revealed more. more unforgiving terrain. By the time they reached the Great Salt Lake, the Donner Party was despondent. The portion of the journey that they'd just completed, it was supposed to have taken them one week. Instead, it had taken them an entire month. And it's only going to get harder.

Anger set in. They hated Lansford Hastings. And whether it was fair or not, some people in the group began. began to quietly resent James Reed, too. He was the one who'd met Lansford Hastings. He was the one who'd kept them going. This was his fault, too. Fair enough. I think I'd be pissed, too.

I'd be pissed too. Yeah. And he was the one that was like, yeah, let's go this route. Let's do it. I mean, obviously, we'll get more into this, but I think in a situation like this, you'd have so much self-hatred for putting yourself in this situation. And I think it'd be really hard to deal with. And I think sometimes it's easier to blame somebody else than to just sit with all that. Because I don't think it's entirely fair to blame James Reed. No, not completely.

But a little. A little bit, yeah. Yeah. So it was in that environment with everyone so frustrated and looking for, someone to blame that they experienced their first death. Luke Holleran, the young man who George and Tamsin Donor had led into their wagon, lost his battle with tuberculosis. Tampson had cradled his head in her lap as he died.

This young man she barely knew. They made him a coffin and buried him on the trail. And oddly, in those days near the Great Salt Lake, the exact number of people in the Donner Party did not change. because around that same time Elizabeth Keseberg the woman whose husband abused her delivered a healthy baby boy

A baby. Yeah. And a healthy baby boy. Yeah. It was kind of a miracle. And soon they had another miracle. They spotted the wagon tracks that had been left behind

by Lanceford Hastings party. Oh. And so yeah, they were running behind and exhausted and frustrated, but at least they knew they were on the right track. At least they had a path to follow. Sure. And then they arrived at Hope Springs.

Oh my God, it was just beautiful. It had plenty of grass and fresh water. And oh, what, another note. Hey, guys. Or at least it had been a note at one point in time. Hmm. It was really a scrap of a note. It looked like it had been picked apart by crows.

Did he leave it in a bush? Well, yeah, he left it in a bush. Yeah, so some animal. came and chewed it all up. That's why you put it under a rock. How are they going to find it, Norm? Well, you'll see it. I mean, you leave a little flap, you know.

Yeah, but the crows are going to get the flap. No, crows don't hang out by rocks. They hang out in bushes. Everyone knows that. Anyhow. The group went around frantically trying to find every tiny scrap of paper they could find. They took each piece back to Tams and Donner, the former school teacher, and she sat down and puzzled it together piece by piece.

When she finished, the group beheld the note, which had been left behind by Lansford Hastings. It read, two days, two nights, hard driving, across desert, reach water. It was like a punch to the gut. Previously, Lansford Hastings had told them that this desert would be easy. He'd said it would take one day of easy driving. One day to go 40 miles. He's so full of shit. And it's not even 40 miles.

It's actually 80 miles. Right. He told people whatever he needed to tell them to get them on this path. And then he abandoned them. People were angry. Once again, they'd been misled. But they got to work. They filled every receptacle they could with water.

Anything that could be filled got filled. They loaded their wagons with grass for their livestock. They did everything. they could to prepare themselves for those two days and two nights of hard driving. They think it's going to be two days. On August 30th, they got started. But wow, traversing that desert was unlike anything they'd ever experienced. The high heat caused moisture to rise to the surface of the terrain, and it turned everything

into a thick sludge. Their wagon sank two feet deep. Their oxen pulled and strained, barely moving. A day passed. A night passed, a day passed, a night passed. The days were boiling hot and the nights were freezing cold. They ran low on water. They ran low on grass for their livestock. But they'd done what Lanceford had said. They'd traveled hard for two days. And according to his note, they should be near the end. They should be near water. Except they weren't. He'd been dead wrong to say that they could make the journey in two days.

and those assholes at Fort Bridger had been dead wrong to tell them that their trek across the desert would be 40 miles, which meant that they didn't have the water that they needed. And it was hot, so hot. People saw mirages. They saw water, and they didn't. They saw Lanceford Hastings and other members of that bigger group up ahead. And then they didn't. It was quiet, so quiet.

The heat and the struggle and the frustration. and the anger caused a rift. People stopped identifying as part of a larger group, the Donner Party, and instead began to look out for themselves, for their individual families, and maybe for some friends. Those who could go faster did, and those who couldn't fell behind. Oxen began to fail. Horses suffered.

Dogs suffered. Some dropped dead. Others just stopped. Children suffered. men like James Reed left their wives and children behind in their wagons so that they could ride ahead and hopefully reach the water at Pilot Peak and bring it back to them. And James Reed did that. He rode ahead. He got the water. He brought it back to his family and his teamsters. It was a relief. They weren't close, but, you know, there was water up ahead. The oxen couldn't keep pulling their wagons without having some water. So they decided to let the oxen go ahead. But James, James warned his teamsters to be careful with them. He worried that once the oxen smelled that water, they'd stampede and be lost forever.

And what would they do out there in the desert with no oxen? So when you say they let the oxen head, did they, so did the wagons just have to stay? Yeah. Oh, my gosh. James Reed's fear came to fruition. The oxen did stampede. They ran off. People tried frantically to wrangle them, but were only able to.

to recover one ox and one cow. It was devastating. But what could the Reed family do? They'd had three wagons originally, but now with just one ox and one cow, they abandoned two of their wagons in the desert, which meant that people had to part ways with the few precious items

that they'd brought with them on the journey. For eight-year-old Patty Reed, it was all a little too much. So, when no one was looking, she hid a few small things in her apron, a doll, her grandma's pincushion, and the lock of her grandmother's hair, which her father had given Patty, when they'd buried her grandmother just a few months earlier on the trail. Other members of the party suffered the same fate as the reeds.

36 oxen took off in the desert, never to be found again. Wagons were abandoned, so were animals. animals who at this point were too sick and malnourished to keep going. Some people shot their animals. Other people couldn't bring themselves to do it. They let the animals go, knowing that they wouldn't survive. It was a horrible time for people. I mean, you had so few things out there,

and people really bonded with their animals. Yeah. It was an awful thing. Well, and just having to let them go and knowing they're going to die. Yeah. There was no room for anything extra. There weren't enough resources to go around. And this was when the despair really set in. They'd believed Lansford Hastings. They'd followed in his path. And now they had to look into the eyes of their starving and dehydrated children and say, what? I'm sorry? They hated themselves. And if that felt too hard, they hated other people for putting them in

this position. They were trapped. They'd gone too far now to turn back. They traveled through that desert for 11 days. Not one day, not two days and two nights, 11 days. That is horrible. When they finally reached water, they rested, but they didn't rest for long. They couldn't. They had to make up freaking, what, a month? More than a month. Yeah. Yeah. Now I'm getting pissed off. Yeah. I'm thinking about that big ass forehead and stupid haircut and... That awful man.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, as you just pointed out, they couldn't rest. That last stretch of the California Trail would be critical. That stretch across the Sierra Nevada Mountains was considered the most difficult part of the journey. And it would be nearly impossible to traverse it if they got there too late. So they kept moving. And then it snowed. Oh, my God.

Is it September? October? Oh shit. It's probably late September, right? I think it's September. Yeah. They were still on the shortcut. They weren't even back on the regular trail yet, and it was already snowing.

And in that desperate state, they took stock of their situation. How much food did they have? What supplies did they have? How far behind were they? And once they answered all those questions, they knew what they'd probably already known deep down. They were doomed, doomed to watch one another die one by one if they didn't do something desperate. They decided that their best option was to send someone ahead in the hope that they might reach the closest fort. Fort Sutter.

At Fort Sutter, that person could round up a rescue party. They could buy food and supplies on credit. And then they could come back and save the rest of the Donner Party from certain death. Two men volunteered for the job, Charles Stanton and William B. Big Bill McCutcheon. Okay, so we met Charles Stanton earlier. He's the short king. He's the bachelor.

He's my short king. We sang the song. We loved it. He's the guy who really seemed to have a sense of community and a desire to help. William Big Bill McCutcheon was, first of all, very tall. Was that why they called him Big Bill? Well, yeah. It wasn't false advertising.

One of the books I read said that Big Bill and Charles made kind of a funny pair because Charles was so short and Big Bill was so tall. What a dynamic duo. Big Bill had a wife and an infant daughter on the trail, and he was very worried about their survival. And as soon as the Reed family said that they'd look after them, Big Bill was like, okay, I'm going to go get help. For the rest of the group, that was a bit of a relief.

They didn't want two single guys going off for help for fear that the two single guys might not have enough incentive to come back. Oh, I didn't even think. Think about that. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, they could be like, F this and freaking F off, you know. Absolutely.

Yeah. So Charles Stanton and Big Bill McCutcheon took off ahead, leaving the rest of the group to hopefully survive. I wonder how much farther ahead the other people are that did not take the shortcut. Because remember, a few split off. Uh-huh. And we're like, yeah, aren't I taking that? I wonder how far ahead they are at this point.

What would you guess? because I know the answer. Oh, my God. Like mile-wise or... Time-wise. Time-wise. They're probably a month ahead. They are exactly one month ahead.

Can you believe that? They're probably almost California then. Yeah, they're doing great. Jesus Christ. Oh, my God. Meanwhile, the rest of the group kept moving, but at a much slower pace. And then, oh, they hit some springs. Hot springs.

They were able to hunt. They were able to eat, really eat. And on September 26th, they reached the Humboldt River, which meant that their shortcut was over. So they're back on the regular trail again. Yeah. I wrote in here that it was bittersweet, but I don't even know that there was any sweetness to it.

I mean, obviously it was good to be back on the California Trail, but they were rejoining that trail way too late in the season, and they knew it. Yeah. You talk about the scenic route. Holy shit. Yeah. That shortcut that was supposed to save them 300 miles, it had added 125 miles to their journey. That shortcut that was supposed to put them a whole month ahead of schedule had put them behind schedule by 68 days.

Oh, my God. By that point, people were beyond angry, beyond frustrated. The group had been tense and divided from almost the beginning. but it hit a new level on October 5th. That day, a man named John Snyder was driving one of the Graves' family's wagons up a steep hill. The oxen struggled to pull the wagon. Folks yelled to John that he needed to hitch his wagon to another wagon. You know, it would take time and more effort.

But he didn't want to hear it. He got frustrated, he got angry, and he took it out on the oxen. He took the butt of his bullwhip and he beat the oxen with it. He beat them relentlessly and mercilessly. And just then James Reed came over on his horse and he shouted for John to stop. He said, you need those oxen. Whoa, you need them. You need them. What are you thinking?

Yeah. It's hard to say exactly what happened next. But here's what happened according to 12-year-old Virginia Reed. John Snyder was cursing. He was going nuts. And James Reed tried to calm him down. James said, we can settle this, John, when we get up the hill. And John said, no, we'll settle it now.

and John jumped up and hit James Reed with the whip. He hit him again. Blood streamed from James's head. John Snyder raised up to hit James again, but Margaret Reed, James's wife, ran up. She tried to stop him. When James looked up and saw that his wife was in the line of John's whip, he said, John, John! But John kept going. He hit Margaret Reed.

Oh, shit. And in an instant, James Reed pulled a knife. He stabbed John Snyder in the chest. afterward James Reed stumbled around, bloodied, and in shock. Margaret Reed was bloody too, and John Snyder died. What had just happened? It had all happened so fast. Was that a murder? Was that self-defense? People had trouble agreeing on what happened. At that point, the party was pretty divided. Literally, the Donner families, for example, were further up ahead on the trail. They had no

idea that any of this had happened. But the group that was together decided that they needed to make some decisions. A man had been killed. They couldn't just let that happen. Did he have a family, John Snyder? No, I don't believe so. Okay. He was a teamster for the Graves family. Oh, that's right. Okay. Lewis Keseberg, the man who many people felt was cruel to his wife, and the man who didn't like James Reed because James Reed had intervened. Oh boy Said that they should hang James Reed Lewis even offered his own wagon

As the ideal place to conduct the hanging I bet he Was freaking front and center being like yep I told you this guy was bad Yeah other people agreed James Reed had killed a man He deserved to be killed too An eye for an eye

I don't about that Did no one else see that Margaret Reed Was bleeding to And James Reed was bleeding It's a tough thing self-defense because, and I agree this is self-defense, in my opinion, this is self-defense, because too many blows from a whip like that I'm sure could kill you. And yeah, you do have a right to stop someone from doing that.

Yeah, well, and he's beating the oxen too. Right. James Reed is saving those innocent oxen. Other people argued that this needed to be handled the proper way. What do you think the proper way is, Norm? A trial. Yeah, so. But there's no time for a trial.

Well, now, hang on, their idea was we all take some eyewitness statements. Then when we get to California, James Reed can go on trial in California. The court will determine his punishment. Yeah, that idea went over like a fart at a party. Let me tell you. No one wanted that. Well, there's no time. There's no time.

But do you agree that they have to do something? I mean, probably. Well, no, no probably. do they have to do something, yes or no? Well, yes, they have to make a decision. Yeah. They have to say, okay, this was self-defense, let's move on, or they have to say, okay, you killed somebody

and then decide how to punish him. Yeah. The group argued and argued until finally they reached a compromise. They decided that they wouldn't kill James Reed, but they wouldn't allow him to stay either. They'd let him go with nothing more than the close. clothes on his back. That decision was a victory for anyone who wanted him dead. There was no way anyone would survive on their own out there. When the group gave James their decision, he just refused.

He wasn't going to leave his wife and children to go die in the wilderness. James' friends warned him, if you don't go, these people are going to kill you. What other choice does he have? Well, Margaret Reed, James' wife, was the one who came up with the solution. She said, said, why not, instead of banishing my husband with just the clothes on his back, let him take a horse. Let him take his horse. Let him go off on his own and find help for the rest of the group. By that point, they'd already sent off Big Bill McCutcheon and Charles Stanton to find help. But they had no idea if those guys were even alive, let alone coming back with help. Why not send one more person and in turn increase everyone's chances of survival?

Yeah, I mean, that makes sense to me. The next morning, they held a funeral for John Snyder, and afterward Margaret Reed and her children sobbed as they said their goodbyes to James Reed. And he left. The group had allowed him to take his horse and nothing else. Not even a snack? No, not a snack.

No snacks? No, literally nothing, nothing. Maybe hide a little something in his pocket. I like where you're thinking. And Virginia Reed was thinking the same. same thing, Norm. Great minds. That night, 12-year-old Virginia Reed, and a teamster named Milt Elliott, silently gathered a little

bit of food. They gathered James Reed's rifle and his pistol, and they snuck out of camp and hurried down the trail. When they found James Reed, they gave him the provisions. Virginia hugged her father. She told him she wanted to stay with him, but he told her no. As any father would. He told her she needed to go back to her.

her mother and that Milt was in charge now. Virginia cried the entire walk back to camp. The next day, they kept going and kept going and kept going. And along the way, Margaret Reed and her children searched for signs of James. Sometimes they found letters from him tucked into bushes. I'm sorry, Norm, I know you prefer a rock. It just seems like that's not the way it was done. Just place it under a rock.

Come on, people. Sometimes they found a handful of feathers, proof that he was eating. They found little fire pits, proof of life, proof of life, until eventually they found nothing and nothing and nothing. So they presumed he may have died? Sure. So this is where we get into personal opinion territory. Oh, I'm ready. My personal opinion is that John Snyder's death and the decision to banish James Reed ushered in a new era for the Donner Party. as a group, they had been fractured, but now I would say they are broken.

There are no rules now. Leaderless? I mean, I would say they had been leaderless for some time because the Donner brothers were way too far ahead of everybody else. And when your wagon train gets so literally divided, I imagine it's pretty hard to keep a sense of community. Absolutely. Yeah, because you don't really feel like people are going to help you if something happens to you, especially if you're in the back of the wagon train. Well, and the other thing they're fighting against is urgency.

Yeah. Everyone's getting desperate now. They know they're in the shit. Yeah. And so it's like every man for himself. I think that's the hard thing about this is you read about it or you hear about it and you want to believe, well, I'd be one of the good ones. I'd, you know, I'd do this, that, and the other thing. But I'm thinking, especially if I had a family out there, no.

No, no, if I can go faster, I'm going faster. I've said this before on the podcast, but you don't know what someone will do until their backs against the wall. Yeah. And their backs are approaching the wall or on the wall now. Yeah. Lewis Kesseberg, the guy who'd been so eager to hang James Reed just a few days earlier, decided that he was done with one of his teamsters. The man was 60 years old and to this day is only known by his last name.

Hard coop. Hard coop. A 60-year-old teamster? Yeah. That's an old teamster. Oh, yeah. He was a sweet old man from Belgium. I'm saying old just because, you know, adjusted for inflation, 60 is really 90 out on the trail, I would say.

I'd say, oh, back then, too. Yeah. I mean, you're 60. And the journey had been really hard on his body. He couldn't walk the trail anymore. He needed to be in a wagon. But Lewis Kesseberg had kicked him out. Hard Koop went to William Eddy and asked him,

Hey, could I get in your wagon? And William Eddie told him no. Not right now. At the moment, the wagons were in loose sand, and if they stopped the wagons, they might not get going again. Ah, yeah. Momentum. So William Eddie told Hardcoop,

I'll let you in as soon as we get stopped, but I just can't stop right now. And the hard coop said, okay. And HardCoop, by all accounts, did his best to keep up. But the terrain didn't change, and the wagon train kept going. And HardCoop didn't have shoes anymore. At some point, his feet split open. Oof.

That evening, when they were finally able to stop the wagons, the group set up a signal fire, hoping that he'd see it and catch up. But he didn't show up. night fell and still he didn't show the morning came and still he didn't show it was time to get going and that's when the argument started three people margaret reed William eddy and milt elliott went to louis keseyberg and told him what he needed to do he needed to go back and find hard coop they couldn't just leave him out there to die lewis keseberg refused his entire family was walking his wife who'd just given birth was walking with their infant son. He wasn't going to let some old man he barely knew ride in his wagon. He was done with Hard Coop. Hard Coop was probably dead already anyway.

What's the harm of letting him ride in the wagon? Is he just being an asshole? I, okay. Or does he have a legitimate reason? A lot of people view Lewis Kessaberg as the ultimate bad guy in this story. And I think there's a lot of bad here. I also wonder how much of it later on is a little more exaggerated because we all want a bad guy. But again, in this situation, he lets the old man ride in his wagon.

Well, that's extra weight that the oxen have to pull. And again, his young child, his infant, his wife who just gave birth, they are all walking so that the oxen don't have to carry extra weight. Right. And so while on the one hand, I do think this is terrible. On the other hand, I think it's also one of those situations where what do you do when your backs against the wall? Yeah, fair point. So Lewis Keseberg refused.

The group went to William Graves. They went to Patrick Breen. Help us. Help us get hard coop. And the men refused. Let us borrow one of your horses so that we can go back and find hard coop. Again, the men refused. They didn't want to risk losing.

a horse. They didn't want to waste time. A few of them said they'd go on foot and find hard coop themselves. But the rest of the group was like, well, do whatever you want, but we're not going to wait for you. Yeah. We don't have time to wait for you. And so they all kept moving and no one ever saw HardCoop again. He probably died out there. I'm sorry. That's not funny, Kristen. Norm, that's a little funny. Yeah, I would say that Hard Coop died out there, Norm. Yes.

Well, we don't know, okay? Based on everything we've just learned, yes, he probably died. Rumor has it that he actually resurfaced in Germany

about a hundred years later. It's the weirdest thing. And then he went to Brazil, I think it was. Yeah, he, Hardcoop is still alive today. Are you connecting this? Do your own research people.

That's all I'm saying. To the Nazis? Was his name Adolf Hardcoop? Again, we don't know. But in a way, we do. And yes, it was. No, poor HardCoop. He doesn't need to be shat upon.

I just, you know. That freaking sucks. The laughs are very few in this episode. And yeah, Norm, I got to tell you. You saying he probably died out there did make me laugh. Listen, I'm a professional historian. And in my professional historian opinion, I believe Mr. Hardcoop passed away out there. It's funny.

A lot of people say he looked a lot like Henry Clay. Good looking guy. Knew how to use a pogo stick. Very talented man. What? Eventually, they caught up with the rest of the Donner. party. They were all back together again. Reunited and it feels so bad because we're two months behind schedule.

Yep, yep. It might have seemed like a good thing, but as you just saying, it got ugly very quickly. Because a lot had happened since they'd last seen each other. The donors were curious. Where's John Snyder? Where's HardCoop? Hey, what happened to John Snyder? He owes me 50 bucks. Yeah. And of course, Margaret Reed and her children had their own questions. They'd been worried about James Reed. They hadn't seen any sign of him in so long. They feared he was dead.

But maybe he wasn't. The Donners informed everyone that they'd seen James Reed. He'd actually caught up to them a while ago, and he told them this kind of interesting story, really. He essentially said, look, hey, the group's in a tight spot back there. We clearly need help. You know, Big Bill McCutche and Charles Stanton, we sent them off. But I decided to also get help. I definitely didn't get involved in some weird self-defense murder thing.

Don't even worry about that. We're not going to mention that. We've been under the rug. Yeah. And of course, the Donners had been grateful. They didn't question the story because why would you question the story? And in fact, a guy named Walter Heron, who at one point had been one of James Reed's teamsters, was like, you know what? Hey, I'll go with you.

If you're going to get help, safety and numbers. I'll come along to Margaret Reed. and her children were elated to hear any kind of news about James. It was still possible that he was dead, but that news gave them hope. But, you know, by that point, everyone was kind of sharing news because, yeah, the story James had told was not quite the truth, as we all know. Yeah, let's fill in some of the details of this story. Did you know that James Reed murdered John Snyder? Yeah, that's why he was on the trail.

it was because we banished him for being a murderer. Nuh, it was self-defense. Oh, and did you hear about HardCoop? Yep, Lewis Kessberg, who we all know is a world-class jackass, forced HardCoop out of his wagon, and then no one would let us go look for him. There was no time to go look for him. He was probably dead already. Shut up.

See, they said probably too. Yeah. It was a mess. People were livid. They were hungry, tired, scared, and mad. And it was in that chaos with all the accusations and revelations that something not very nice happened in our last episode. I talked about how the immigrants had this really intense fear kind of bordering on paranoia about Native Americans. Oh, Native Americans.

What are they going to do to us? Yep. Oh, something awful for sure. But for the vast majority of their journey out west, their encounters with Native Americans had been. super uneventful. They traded stuff. They stared at each other. Yep. End of story. That was it. Native Americans probably saw wagon trains and looked at them out of curiosity.

Like, what are they doing? And, you know, the people in the wagon trains looked at Native Americans with curiosity. Yeah. And that's usually what happened. And yeah, trading happened a lot too. And, hey, Native Americans could make good money and get valuable things by being guys. guides on the trail. Right. So yeah. Like I said, first four or five months of the journey, nothing really to report.

They were terrified of running into Native Americans, but nothing really happened. And at this point in the journey, things did take a turn because in the midst of all that fighting about James Reed and Hardcoop and John Snyder, a group of Native Americans snuck into camp. And they stole every last ding-dong one of the Graves family's horses. Yeah, we're stealing. Yeah, very common. It was not nice. No. The Donner Party was already screwed, and now they were super screwed.

And if they'd all been working as one, if they'd all been thinking about what was best for the group as a whole, they might all have been devastated by the loss of those horses. But that was not the case. When those horses went missing, a few members of the group quietly smirked, Smirked. Yeah. Like, it serves you right.

Because weren't, excuse me, weren't those horses the ones that couldn't possibly be loaned out for anyone to go save a hard coop? Oh, yeah. Oh, those precious horses. Oh, not even one of them could be borrowed for like five minutes to go save a sweet old man. And now, look, every last one of them is gone. Gone. Ha ha ha. So sad for you. The Schadenfreude.

I mean, honestly, I wouldn't be above it. I would be such an asshole about this. If I had wanted to, you know, borrow a horse to save somebody and they said no, and then all their horses went missing. I'm sorry. Honestly, here was my honest thought when I read about that. I thought, I would do more than smirk. I would say one sentence too many. And then I would be murdered on the trail.

Yep. You would say something super sarcastic. Uh-huh. And then someone would plunge a knife into your chest. And everyone would be like, that was self-defense. No one saw anything. Nope. We saw a mouthy woman being very mean. And she had to be stopped. The next day, Native Americans shot poisoned arrows at the group's livestock.

And just like that, 18 cows were either dead or gone. So where are they right now? Like what territory are they in? Like what Native Americans are they dealing with? Paiute, Native Americans. Okay. So, okay, it's interesting you ask that. So like Utah, probably.

I would have to look at a map. But it's interesting you bring that up because one of the things that I've read about here is that, you know, these folks had this intense fear of Native Americans. and a lot of it was based on racist bullshit because obviously, I mean, I feel like I don't need to say this, but I'll go ahead and say it. We genocided a lot of Native Americans. Put Native Americans in boarding schools

that weren't really boarding schools to wipe their culture. So obviously, we're the problem. It's us. But one of the things that's interesting is people were so afraid of Native Americans and also so ignorant. So it didn't really occur

to them that, oh, we're dealing with different groups of people here, different groups with their own culture, their own customs. Right. And yeah, maybe one group might be a little more prone to violence, but another one won't. Right. And so it's interesting. I mean, it just seems like they're dealing with a new group of folks. Yeah, they're in a new territory.

Uh-huh. Yeah. And they're not enjoying themselves. Yeah. And the Paiutes were probably like, we don't want you here. I mean, the Paiute's probably handled it the right way, honestly. They're not murdering people. They're making their lives harder.

Yeah. So that was another massive loss, but they kept going. And that night, they made camp. And Patrick Breen's horse got caught in a sinkhole. And in a panic, he asked William Eddy to help him. Help save my horse. Help, help. And William Eddie was like, oh, oh, you want me to save that horse's life?

What about Hardcoop's life? Remember him? Oh, my God. Remember how you couldn't lend me a horse to go save him? Oh, my God. This is... I remember it. I sure remember it.

Petty McPeters sitting here. Save the damn horse. The horse died in the sinkhole. What? Was a horse's name Artex? What? Kristen. What are you talking about?

It's only the saddest death in cinema history. What are you? Artex, the horse from the never-ending story, died sinking. in mud. Oh. You've seen that movie? No, I've never seen. Oh yeah, you don't watch movies.

I don't watch movies. I just watch amazing reality TV shows. Well, you history hoes out there, I hope you appreciate that reference. It's a good movie. Neverending story. But yeah, that's fucked up. He should have saved the horse. I thought you ran on spite and crystal light.

I thought you would. Not when someone's life is at stake. Well, exactly. That's what William Eddy's saying. Someone's life was at stake. And you wouldn't risk your horse. You wouldn't let me borrow this horse to go save a man's life. Right.

And now you want me to risk my own life, helping you save your horse. I'm busy right now. I'm going to carve, you know, something into this stick I just found. Listen, I know the guy was being a huge douche. Uh-huh. But I just, I couldn't bring myself to just let. Yeah, I know you couldn't. A living thing die like that.

I would still help. Would you be a bit of a pill about it? Yes. Would you be like, hmm, I'm helping you out here. I wish you had helped me out the other day. Yeah, I'd be saying that shit the whole time as I pulled the horse out. Absolutely. A day or two later, Native Americans shot more poisoned arrows at the Donner Party's livestock.

This time, 21 cows died. Man, it's just getting harder and harder, huh? They're, man, so they're moving like a whole damn cattle farm on this trail. Yeah, I mean, they'd had a lot of wagons, but you would bring along cattle, you know, for milk, for food. Because they're cute. For cuteness, for sure. Hug a cow, make your day better. You'd bring dogs kind of for safety, but also for cuddles. Sure.

Sure, you'd bring a lot. Yeah. With those 21 cows dead, the group quickly butchered the animals. They needed the food, but they didn't have time to preserve the meat. so they had to just eat what they could and move on. Must have been one hell of a meal. It wasn't. I mean, everyone was malnourished, including the animals.

So it wasn't like there was just a ton of meat. Yeah. But still, I mean, tragic to waste it. I'm surprised they were able to eat it if they were poisoned. I assume they ate carefully. I don't know. Maybe they like ate the legs. I don't know.

I'm talking out of my ass here. I don't know anything. By this point, some of the families had no livestock. More wagons were abandoned. More possessions were buried or given up. People took what they could, knowing what they kept would have to be carried. This shortcut absolutely fucked them up. Yes.

It completely did. Oh, my God. They would have been fine if they'd done the regular California Trail. It would have been a hell of a journey for them, but completely unremarkable. in the grand scheme of things. Yeah, compared to what they're going through, yes. The Wolfinger found themselves in that position. Jacob and Doris Wolfinger were down to just one ox.

They needed to abandon their wagon. And the rest of the group was antsy. They were running out of time. They didn't have time to sit around and wait for people to decide what to take and what to leave. But Jacob Wolfinger insisted that he wanted to bury his wagon so that he could come back to it at a later date. Barry the wagon? That was something that was said.

I cannot imagine that they mean the entire wagon, but maybe they do. Barry the contents of the wagon is probably what they mean? I would think so. But at the same time, if you're really worried about people coming and digging up your stuff, you probably would want to remove all traces of it and disassemble it completely. I don't know. So Jacob was going to stay behind. The rest of the group bid him a do.

They weren't going to wait for that. He sent Doris ahead. He'd catch up later. But at the last minute, two of Jacob's teamsters decided to do him a solid. Joseph Reinhart and Augustus Spitzer told him, hey, we'll help you out. The rest of you go on ahead. We'll stay and help. Doris and Jacob hugged goodbye. They'd see each other again soon. Gee, it sure was nice of those men to help Jacob out. What's going on? Are they robbing this man? Oh, the really rich guy who everyone is just convinced is super rich because his wife has nice jewelry and nice clothes and seems really pretty hot. She was known as a tall queenly woman. Ooh. I'm about to bust.

You know, that gets me going. Tall queenly women. Well, yeah, it's your thing. Can't help it. Kind of into tall queenly women. What can I say? So they're going to rob this dude? No, they're going to help him.

Pay attention to the story. I don't believe a word you're saying. I'm so sorry that you've lost faith in humanity because a horse died in a sinkhole. These guys are staying to help out. The group headed into another stretch of desert. They ran low on water. They traveled at night. They passed countless dead horses and oxen on their paths.

William Eddie worried about the fate of his family. He and his wife Eleanor had two children, and they were nearly out of water. But William knew that the Bream family had at least ten years. gallons of water. So he went to the Breen's and he asked for some of it. He told them, hey, I don't want it for myself. Eleanor doesn't want it for herself. We want it

for our children. Yeah. And the Breens said no. Oof. Yep. That's tough. Different sources have this next part different ways but the outcome is the same. One source said that he pulled a gun on Patrick Lane. Oh, that escalated

quickly. And said, give me that water. Another source said that he told Patrick Breen, I'm going to get some of that water or I will die trying. Either way, William Eddy got some of that water and brought it back to his children. Yep, people are desperate.

They had 10 miles left in the desert. They had to keep going. More oxen died. They kept going. And then they reached the Truckee River. They had water again. drinkable water. But the Eddie family was still hurting.

They were out of food. William and Eleanor hadn't eaten in two days. They'd given their children everything they had. And now they were down to lumps of sugar. William went to Elizabeth Graves and asked her for some food. Food for his children. She said no. Oh my God.

He went to Peggy Breen and asked for some food. Food for his children. And she said no. Damn it, Peggy. Pig. Pig. Pig. And just then, they heard something.

It was geese. William Eddy took off. He borrowed a gun from Lewis Kesseberg. And later, when he came back, he was carrying nine big fat geese. Hell yeah. Way to go. He gave one to Lewis Kessaburg, and he gave two to Elizabeth Graves, and two to Peggy Breen. And he said, eat shit.

He said, don't forget this, bitches. Yeah. Really? It wasn't long before the two teamsters, Joseph Reinhart and Augustus Spitzer came riding up. Oh, no, something happened to our friend. Oh, Norm remembers them well. Yeah, they'd been the ones who volunteered to help Jacob Wolfinger bury his wagon. Yeah, and they were wearing a bunch of nice jewelry now.

I've always had this. I bought this in Independence, Missouri at a souvenir shop. A souvenir shop before you go off on this dangerous trail. You always got to stop by the gift shop. Always. Always. Doris Wolfinger panicked. Where was her husband?

Where was Jacob? The men gave her unsettling news. Are you ready for it? Jacob went crazy and tried to hurt us. Oh, my God. Oh, boy, it was nuts out there. Yep. Okay, those Native Americans?

Well, you know, we were afraid for a reason. And you know what? They killed Jacob. They just killed him. Well, oh, it was bad. They almost killed us. I mean, we almost got killed, but we didn't. We escaped.

Okay, so how about a big hug? How about three cheers for us? Yeah, yeah. Anyway, in conclusion, sorry, Doris, this has been a very real true story. Yeah, Doris was distraught. Her husband was dead. And, of course, to make things more complicated, the story seemed fishy. Yeah, that's a ridiculous story.

It would have been more believable if they're like, He just died. He was exhausted and he died. I don't know about that. It's just weird. Yeah. It's just weird. And I guess a few people tried to press them for details and they were really, really vague.

So the thought was, okay, they stayed behind because they were convinced that Jacob had some serious valuables. And who knows? Maybe they hid them somewhere else and they're planning to get back to them. You don't think it's more believable that he would just suddenly die from exhaustion over Native Americans attacked us and only he died, but we got away? Yeah, I guess that's a good point. That is more believable, but I do think when people are looking for a story, I also don't know how healthy Jacob was at this point. Because if he was one of the healthier people on this journey, that would probably seem weird to be like, oh, he just up and died. I know you saw him just a couple days ago and he looked fun.

fine, but he up and died. A wolf came and dragged him away. Is that because of his last name? Yeah. Oh. You know, call him wolf finger for nothing. So that was the vibe of the Donner Party at that point. They'd been united, then divided, and now those divisions were becoming irreparable.

They'd sent for help and had received nothing. And now, the most challenging portion of the journey lay ahead of them. They were about to enter the Sierra. Nevada mountains, and the mountains were already covered in snow. On next week's episode, the Donner Party gets rescued, kind of. I'm sorry, I tried to say that with energy, but my God, it's rough times ahead. I have a question. Yeah.

Where's Fort Sutter? Is it past the mountains? I don't know the exact location. Okay, because I remember they were talking about getting to Fort Sutter. Hang on. Let me see if I can find it. It's in California. So it was past the mountains.

Okay. Oh, you can go there. Heck yeah. Hell of a gift shop. I'm sure there is. Yeah, a lot of these old forts they stopped at are open. They're historic sites. You can check them out.

Just a free plug, you know. No one had to pay for that. Wow. Such a generous guy. From the goodness of my heart. Good job, Norm. Mm-hmm. So there you go.

Well, Chris. that was a terrible, terrible time. Yeah. Okay. We should tell people about what we found this weekend. Oh, yes. We did a little, we hoed it up a little bit this weekend. We did hoe it up.

And by that we mean we went to Westport, Kansas City. We were going to do a little shopping. And, of course, we came across a plaque. If you can call it a plaque, it was very large, actually. It's on the ground. Hang on. Yes. Yeah.

And like true history. hose, we of course stopped and read it, and it was about the trails. So, of course, I start freaking out because I'm obsessed with the Donner Party at the moment. It's my hyperfixation. And I saw Fort Bridger on there. And I double freaked out. I insisted Norm to take a picture of me pointing at Fort Bridger. Yes. Fort Bridger, for those who don't remember, that was where James Reed and George Donner stopped. And Jim Bridger himself lied to them and was like, like, oh, it's a 40-mile desert. Go ahead and take that.

So there I am, Curson at Fort Bridger. I turned behind me. There's a statue of Jim Bridger. Yeah. It was, okay, maybe it's not going to be exciting to anyone else, but I was...

I was surprised. I actually did not know that he lived in Kansas City later in life and died here. I had no idea. I tell you what, you have to accomplish a lot in life for all the other shit you do. To be the headline and not, oh, and he lied to the Donner Party and sent them to their deaths, essentially. Yeah, yeah, it was just a little fib.

Just a little fib. Just a little fib that, you know, destroyed the lives of many families. Yeah. He was quite the mountain man, though. Got to say. Well, you think his spirit is here with you today? You don't have to compliment him. I'm just saying he was an accomplished mountain man.

Yes, and he was a big liar. I agree. Mean boy. That was bad. Bad, bad bridger. Okay, thank you. Bad boy. Yeah, so seeing that statue was very cool.

Westport was a popular stop on the trails. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Go from Independence to Westport. That'd be probably a day's travel on the wagons, right? I have no idea. Probably. Yeah.

Kristen, a lot of people have been curious about my bowling escapades. You know, people are wondering. I've not heard anyone ask about it. That's so strange. Well, they're DMing me. Oh, okay. I see. I see. Yes. A lot of women asking how my bowling's going. Yeah. I believe that.

Yes. Well, women want a bowler. They say, give me the guy with the bowling bod. He's got a build for bowling. You know, when you see a guy and you're like, ooh, looking good. He's got a build for bowling. That guy can toss a ball. I bet he throws strikes with the flick of a wrist.

So what do you want to tell people about it? about your bowling more? I just want to let people know I had a terrible night last night. I did not bowl well at all. Oh my God. And I really don't know how to get better. I'm kind of stuck. I've been watching a lot of YouTube videos, but I feel like I need some hands-on training. Well, just go into your DM seems like these ladies are eager to help. They have no advice. They just want to know how I'm doing with my bowling. That's all. I got to say, folks, if you're wondering, geez, Does Norm shake it off pretty well after he has a bad night of bowling? No!

No, this man does not. No, I don't. It's for fun. You're doing it for fun with friends. I know, I know, but I'm also very competitive. You are. With myself, like, I want to improve and get better at stuff. Well, you stabbed everyone in the original group, and that's why you're with this new group now, because the other guys beat you.

No. Oh, okay. Excuse me. No. What happened was the guys got tired of me. for being right all the time. And so they banished me. Oh, I see.

So now I'm in a new bowling team. Yeah. No, I'm just kidding. But yeah, I'm like, I want to get better. But I'm like, man, how do I get? I didn't get bowling coaches and stuff. Yeah. But yeah, I did bad last night.

And I was in that mood of like, this was just stupid. This is a waste of money. Why am I, why am I bowling right now? I should be at home. Just chilling. Huge waste of money. Because bowling is so famously expensive. I mean, it adds up, you know?

I'm sure. You got to get a bowling ball. And then if you want to bowl, you got to pay, you know. Right. Can't you show up at a bowling alley and start throwing your ball around. Yeah, that's how you got arrested that one time. No, I think you should keep bowling. I think it's something you enjoy.

I'll keep bowling. I think you just had a bad night. I had a bad night. But hey, I just want to let all the history host know. I'm hanging in there. Still enjoying bowling. Just had a rough night. Just, you know, people were asking for updates.

So I had to let them know. Yeah, you got to let them know. Stay out of my DMs, please. Yeah. I'm married. Yeah. My God. Love my wife very much.

That tall queen. Tall queenly woman. That tall queenly woman. Yeah, is sitting across from me right now. Well, Kristen, that was sufficiently horrible. And boy, next week's episode will be even more horrible. Yeah. This is my plan to just ruin the podcast.

Any fun vibes we had, I'm just going to get rid of them. Listen, I did my best. You know, Mr. Pike went on a hike. That's all I got for the sentence. No, you did some heavy lifting there, and I'm just worried it didn't do enough. But I tell you what, I am so fascinated by this story, though. It's infuriating and it's interesting. And I think the times that I've just skimmed the surface on it, I've felt like, oh, well, here's how I would behave.

Here's what I would do. And the deeper you go into it, you think, oh, I don't know what I would do in this situation. I have no clue. It's really, it's a story of human beings pushed to their absolute limits. Indeedly do. That was ridiculous that you did that, but we shan't cut it, Norm. And instead, we will do our outro.

Let's do it. Hey, Kristen, you know what they say about history hosts? We always cite our sources. That's right. For this episode, I got my information from the books. The Indifference Stars Above, the harrowing saga of a Donner Party Bride by Daniel James Brown. The book The Best Land Under Heaven, the Donner Party in the Age of Manifest Destiny by Michael Wallace. The documentary The Donner Party.

Plus more. Check the show notes for a full list of our sources. That's all for this episode. Thank you for listening to an old-timey podcast. Please give us a five-star review wherever you listen to podcasts. And while you're at it, subscribe. support us on Patreon at patreon.com slash old-timey podcast. Join the Reddit community at our

slash old-timey podcast. Follow us on Facebook and YouTube and Instagram at Old Timey Podcast. You can also follow us individually on Instagram. I'm at Kristen Pitts-Carruso and he's at Gaming Historian. And until next time,

Tudaloo, Tata, and Cheerio. Bye. Bye. Tell you. See you!