An Old Timey Podcast - 76: Bad Blood: Ann Landers, Dear Abby Feud Goes Public (Part 3)

Episode Date: October 15, 2025

For a few years, the feud between twin sisters Ann Landers and Dear Abby was an industry secret. That changed in 1958, when Life Magazine printed a story that exposed the rivalry. In the article, Abby shared stories that weren’t hers to tell. She talked about Ann’s nose job. She talked about Ann’s broken engagement. Abby told the reporter, “I understand why she’s disturbed. She wanted to be the first violin in the school orchestra, but I was. She swore she’d marry a millionaire, but I did.” From that point on, the sisters’ feud became part of their permanent public narrative. Remember, kids, history hoes always cite their sources! For this episode, Kristin pulled from: The book “Dear Ann, Deary Abby: The Unauthorized Biography of Ann Landers and Abigail Van Buren” by Jan Pottker and Bob Speziale“Twin lovelorn advisers torn asunder by success,” by Paul O’Neil for Life Magazine The book, “The Best of Ann Landers: Her Favorite Letters of All Time,” by Ann LandersThe book, “The Best of Dear Abby,” by Abigail Van Buren“Pauline Phillips, better known as ‘Dear Abby,’ dies at 94,” Washington Post“Ann Landers, advice giver to the millions, is dead at 83,” by Margalit Fox for the New York Times“The rivalry of Dear Abby and Ann Landers,” by Melissa Baron for BookRiot.com“Landers’ death renews family feud,” South Florida Sun Sentinel“Pauline Phillips, longtime Dear Abby advice dies at 94,” by Michael Martinez for CNN“Columnists/ daughters carry on the feud,” by Beverly Beyette for the Los Angeles Times“Competition between Iowa sisters who penned Dear Abby, Ann Landers fueled advice columns,” Des Moines RegisterAre you enjoying An Old Timey Podcast? Then please leave us a 5-star rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts!Are you *really* enjoying An Old Timey Podcast? Well, calm down, history ho! You can get more of us on Patreon at patreon.com/oldtimeypodcast. At the $5 level, you’ll get a monthly bonus episode (with video!), access to our 90’s style chat room, plus the entire back catalog of bonus episodes from Kristin’s previous podcast, Let’s Go To Court.

Hear ye, hear ye. You are listening to an old-timey podcast. I'm Kristen Caruso. And I'm Norman Caruso. And on this episode, the feud between Anne Landers and Dear Abby goes public. Oh, shit. You thought it was a secret. It's not anymore.

The year is 1958. Wow. You could have said the year's 1964. But it didn't know. Rhymed. Oh, oh, wow. Norm, on this podcast, we stick to the facts. Okay, the facts.

Okay. And we can't be messing up on a story this important. It's Anne Landers and Dear Abby. I wonder if I... It's not some stupid thing like World War II. Uh-oh, I'm getting in trouble for that. Yeah. I wonder if I will understand the columns this week.

I really struggled last week. Yeah, but sadly, a lot of history hoes were right there with you. I knew they would be. Very innocent hoes. I got to say, I don't know that we can call you all hoes if you don't understand a dear Abby column, a little innuendo. I'll warn you, folks, I do have more to read. We'll see if we can all keep up.

It's very clear that the Norm Troopers all took the Dare Pledge of Virginia. And they took it so seriously. You're very committed to the cause. No, I'm very excited. One of the columns that I'm going to read today is about how a straight woman can protect herself from a lesbian. Sword and shield. You know, nothing's too extreme. Chain mail armor.

Yeah, just a little teaser for you, folks. You know, no. No, you know what? I was about to say something. I'm going to save it for the episode. Will I forget it when the time comes? Maybe, who knows? You got to stick around and find out. You tease. Yes. Folks, if you're enjoying this small, sexy, independent podcast, how about you head on over to patreon.com slash old-timey podcast? And you should consider becoming a non-threatening fan for just $5 a month. If you listen to last week's episode and you did not understand the Dear Abby Columns, either. I think you would be considered a non-threatening fan. And for just five bucks, you'll get

access to our monthly bonus episodes with full video and get to chitty chat in the Discord. But if you are a big old stankin' history ho, oh my. Get on that $10 pig butter investor tier. You'll get bonus episodes, sign card and stickers, early ad-free video episodes, access to our trivia parties, 10% off all merch, and you get ad-free episodes of Kristen's old podcast. Let's stroll through the halls of justice. Not quite right. But Norm, I've got to say, even your Patreon plugs are non-threatening. You ask them to go to the website and consider becoming a member.

Don't even just rush there and sign up, folks. Just think about it. Don't put the pressure on people. Read over everything. Consider your options. Consider your budget. Make a decision. Think about what you want and get yourself a tie instead.

That's what we're always saying on this podcast. Mm-hmm. So head on over to patreon.com slash old-timey podcast to sign up. Thank you and Kristen. Take it away. Oh, hold on. Before we do that, should we really tease them? With what? Folks, we have decided, based on feedback from the history hose, that our next bonus episode will be a good, bad, and the ugly of Dear Abby and Anne Landers. And let me tell you, folks, when you're thinking, well, the ugly, how bad could

some of these columns be. I was so disturbed I had to put the book down. Oh. Anne Landers had multiple printed questions from people who were like, hey, so I'm an adult, my sister's an adult, we're doing incest. Is that bad? We're not going to get married. What?

Unreal. So we're going to have a bonus episode where we read and react to that. And also, at some point, we're going to, maybe we'll drop an email address. We'll do something where people can write in with their own questions. Anonymously. Yes. Yes. And Norm will come up with some very witty one-liners that will go over everyone's head.

I'm sure of it. Okay? Can we count on you? I'll try. You know, we did talk about it and I did think, oh, I don't know if people wanted to get advice for me. I mean, I'm struggling myself. Well, you know, I don't know how seriously people are going to take this. I think it'll mostly be fun.

Yeah. I'll tell you what, if you have a question about home repair, video games, okay. You know, the best way to finish a piece of furniture. You know, perhaps I could help. As far as relationships, you know, I'll do my best. I think I'm doing all right in this marriage.

What would you rate me on a scale 1 to 10? 10 out of 10, baby. Hell yeah, okay. Okay, that's good. Zero out of 10 for understanding innuendos, 10 out of 10 as a husband. You know, when I was editing that episode, I really, I was really stuck on that tie. I was like, yeah, because he's got to get a job.

Yeah, he's got to get a job. I get it. I get it completely. Nothing to do with the tie. I'm picking it up, though. I'm starting to understand the Dear Abby vibe. Okay. I'm starting to get it.

Okay. So hopefully this episode, I'm going to understand everything. Let's find out. But before we get into part three, Kristen, do you have to recap part two? I always do, baby. All right. Previously, on an old-timey podcast. Epi-letterer entered the contest to become the next Ann Landers.

And guess what? She won! She was a syndicated advice columnist. Woo-hoo! For a while, her twin sister Abby helped her out. But when an editor put an end to that nonsense, Abby got mad. No, not mad. She got even. Just three months after Anne became Anne Landers, Abby became Abigail Van Buren,

or as you may know her, Dear Abby. Now the twin sisters were both advice columnists, and within a matter of weeks they were both syndicated advice columnists. And to rub salt in the wound, they were both really, really good at their jobs. Together, Anne Landers, and dear Abby revolutionized a section of the newspaper that was in desperate need of change. They were witty, entertaining, and surprisingly cutting edge. For a while, the sisters had an agreement, an agreement that they wouldn't compete for syndication in the same cities. But Abby took a big dump on that when she went to their hometown newspaper and offered them a discount on her Dear Abby column, a discount that she'd only give

them if they promised to not run her sister's column. After that, it was on, baby. The sisters battled for utter domination in the cutthroat world of advice columns. They went on tour, TV shows, radio shows. Each sister battled for more, more readers, more newspapers, more prominence, more respect, damn it! The feud grew and grew. Where's the beef? It was right there, man. But for the first few years, the feud between Anne Landers and Dear Abby wasn't public knowledge. But in today's episode, the secret feud between Anne Landers and Dear Abby goes public. Oh, baby. Here we go. Picture it. Twas the spring of 1958. Anne and Abby had been advice columnists for just a few years, but they'd already taken the world by storm. Their columns.

appeared in roughly 400 newspapers. They received thousands of letters every week. Suddenly, the advice column wasn't some scrap of paper that you used to line the bird cage. It was the first thing you turned to when you got the morning paper. Because here's the thing. Even in the 1950s, both Anne and Abby were willing to tackle nearly any subject matter. Abuse, alcoholism, sexuality, death, divorce, and also fun stuff too. Readers felt like they could reach out about anything. And why not? The sisters had a way of answering tough, even taboo questions, matter-of-factly. It made people feel normal. Someone who wrote in with a shameful secret was often told, maybe for the first time, that they were not alone. And people who wrote in looking for an excuse to gossip often got hit

with the hip slang of the day. M-Y-O-B. M-Y-O-B? M-Y-O-B. What does that stand for? Mind your own business. Man, I'm behind the times. I've got to get up on that 50s slang norm.

I'm stuck in the 40s. Here's one of my favorite examples. It's from the 1950s, and it comes from Abby's column. Dear Abby, our son married a girl while he was in the service. They were married in February, and she had an eight-and-a-half-pound baby girl in August. She said the baby was premature, but can an eight-and-a-half-pound baby be this premature? Signed, wanting to know. Oh, come on.

What do you think, what do you think Abby said? Abby probably said, yeah, duh, they had sex before they got married. Duh. I hate to be the one to tell. Here's what Abby said. Dear wanting, the baby was on time. The wedding was late. Forget it.

Oh, I love that. I get that. Well, yeah. I love it because Abby and Ann were both anti-primarital sex. You know, they were anti-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-things. But yeah, when people would come, would write in wanting to badmouth someone or wanting to put their nose where it didn't belong, Anne and Abby were like, I'll chop your nose right off, bitch. Well, it's very matter of fact.

It's like, it is what it is. Right. Yeah. Forget it. Yeah, I appreciate that. Let's move on. The baby's here. Be a grandma.

Yeah. Yeah. When readers disagreed with their verdict, the sisters did something that even today feels refreshing. They'd circle back with a new call. that contained feedback from readers. Sometimes they revealed that the feedback had made them rethink their position. Really? Yes.

Wow. They did this all the time. That's surprising to me. Okay, tell me more. Well, when you're a syndicated columnist with a huge following, your ego can make you not want to go back and forth with somebody because you would say, well, my answer is final and this is the right answer. So that's interesting that they took feedback from writers.

It is something I have always loved about them and something that honestly I think shaped me a bit. And of course my parents are this way too. My parents were always big on like if they messed up, they would apologize to us. But I think that a lot of people, they view apologizing or changing your mind or even just saying, hey, I don't agree with what readers have said, but I'm going to print it because I'm going to print it. You know, maybe you're interested in the other side of this issue. I think that shows such strength. Yeah.

My parents were not that way. What they said was final. There was no apologizing, even if they were wrong. Well, and of course they were wrong. Everybody's wrong sometimes. And I think that's the beauty in what they did here is they showed that they were human too. You know, it's kind of why we have our mistakes to shame segment. I think it's exactly why.

Yeah. Because you and I, we're not above apologizing to the people. Absolutely not. I preferred, actually. That all really endeared Anne and Abby to their readers. It made them seem human, but not too human. Because much like Mary Poppins and Landers and Dear Abby were practically perfect in every way. Yes, they had careers, but they were also moms.

They were wives. And they did it all so well. They made it look so easy. Publicity photos showed them at 6.30 in the morning in full glam, stilettos on, hairdos teased to the gods just to get their kids ready for school and kiss their husbands goodbye before sitting down to write a few little columns. It's amazing what money will do. It's amazing what bullshit will do.

I don't believe for a second that that was like their real everyday life. But it was certainly publicized that way. Kristen, if I saw you awake at 6 in the morning with your hair all done. You'd know something was terribly wrong. I would call 911. Anne and Abby were mesmerizing. They were beautiful. They dressed impeccably, more like movie stars than advice columnists.

They each had very distinctive hairdos. Abby's longtime hairdresser referred to hers as a logo. It was so distinctive, so immobile. Yes. And I'm guessing highly flammable. I saw her on the cover of your book. Yes. And I was like, ooh, that hair, that's not going anywhere.

So everyone, I've been basically walking around for the past week with a copy of the best of Anne Landers and the best of Dear Abby. And Norm was just mesmerized by the hair. I was. He was quite intrigued. He felt like he could punch it and it wouldn't move. Maybe it would hurt his hand, actually. Mm-hmm. And both beautiful women. Oh, yeah. Well, they're twins, so, duh.

Duh. But oh, so glamorous. Of course, the truth was that Anne and Abby didn't do it all. They were both very wealthy women with a ton of household help. But the important thing was that they looked like they had it all together. They looked like they had the solutions to all of life's problems. These witty, no-nonsense women were the poster gals for good living. They'd clearly figured something out. So it was no surprise that in 1958, a writer for Life magazine set out to do a profile on these two incredible women. But this writer didn't just skim the surface. No, he spent four days with Abby at her house in California and four days with Anne at her place in Chicago. He observed them. He studied them.

He asked a lot of questions, including questions about each other. When that article came out, it ran under the title, Twin Lovelorn Advisors, torn asunder by success. Ooh, the drama. I hate that title. But man, the article is a doozy. The title's a little long. Sure, but I mean, it got a full spread.

So, you know, you got to fill up that spread there. Sure, sure. In it, the author shared samples of their columns. He complimented their wit, their writing styles, and even their bodies. For example, no shit. After publishing their height and weight, he wrote, quote,

each has the sort of lush figure, which seems designed primarily for slithering through beaded curtains. Neither seems totally unconscious of this fact. Whoa. Can you believe that? I mean, it was 50s. I guess I can believe that.

You know, it's funny. Sometimes when we go back and read these old-timey sources, I feel like writers were still in that era where you did a lot of heavy lifting. Yeah. Because you would assume that a photographer might not be there or photographs just weren't that common. I remember having an editor who wanted me to describe a woman kind of this way for a story. And it was funny because it was like, okay, nothing he was asking me to do was inaccurate. But it was like, dude, this feels creepy. We had a photographer at the event.

Can we just run the photo? Like, I don't need to say she was spilling out of her top. Show don't tell people. Come on. The article also revealed how much Anne and Abby loved their husbands. Uh-oh. We've talked about this. What?

You don't like love? Your anti-love, norm? That's right. I'm anti-love. Oh, tragic. Pure lust over here. For example, did you know that in public, Abby calls Mort loveboat? Love boat?

Love boat. Did she say why he's called love boat? Well, do you need to ask why? Norm, come on. Well, yeah. Okay, well, I mean, it's funny you ask, but she did. Wait, you're focused on the boat? Love boat. Love boat. That's just a, you know.

But why boat? That's like an inanimate object. Okay, Norm, I don't mean to. pull back the curtain too much, but you call me Love Bug. Yeah. Are we going to examine that? Am I a bug? It's cute.

Well, Love Boat is cute. I disagree. Okay, well. Imagine if I called you Love Door or Love Radiator. That is not a fair comparison. Love Boat is a very common one. I mean, not super common, but Love Boat is a thing people have heard of. That is a TV show.

Love Door is something no one has ever heard of. That's an original phrase. Oh, my love door. I just like slaving you. I think they could come up with a better term of endearment. Well, tragically, it's a little late for that. Well, I'm hoping our listeners can write in when we do our bonus episode and ask for my advice on some nicknames for their significant other. I'm sure you'd come up with some really good ones.

Give me their height and weight. Oh, my. You know, just like this writer. Sure, sure. and, you know, lists some of their hobbies, what they're into, whatever, and then I'll give them a nickname. Are you saying that Abby called more loveboat based in part on his height and weight? I legit thought maybe it was because he served in the Navy or something during World War II. He served in the Army.

Yes, so that's not right. Or maybe he enjoyed yachting. We called him Love Boat. Well, I'm sure he did. He was very rich. I mean, but anyhow, anyhow. You ready to hear what Anne did? Yeah.

Anne was so dedicated to Jules that she had Jules' wife sewn into the lining of her fur coats rather than her own name. Wow. Yeah. I should do that to all my underwear. Kristen's husband. That is so weird. So weird.

But these details were minor revelations compared to what the article was really about. It was about how obsessed Anne and Abby were, besting each other. It was about animosity, a shocking level of deep-seated animosity between two middle-aged twin sisters. This goes back to childhood. I agree. Yeah. And it all started with Abby. So remember, the journalist spent time with Abby first, and she revealed a lot, not just about herself, but about Anne. She revealed that Anne had gotten a nose job.

So this was the first reveal. I can't say that with complete certainty, but I'm fairly certain that it was. Yeah. Because I can't imagine how else this would have come up. And there are no quotes from Anne about it in this

article. It seems very clear that Abby brought it up. Abby's the one talking about it. Abby brought it up out of the blue. How else does a sister's nose job come up? By the way, did you hear my sister got a nose job? Abby talked about it in that article, and she did it in that nice, nasty way, where she said, oh, you know, we were both going to get one,

but, you know, at the last minute my husband told me no, you know, he just couldn't handle the idea of me cutting into my face. Oh, yeah. I guess her husband could handle it, you know, hey, whatever. Abby then speculated that the fact that Anne had gone through with the nose job probably meant that she had some Freudian flaws. Oh, my God. Abby also revealed the story of how Anne had met her husband. OMG, did you know that Anne had been engaged to another dude?

Yeah, Jules was just the sales guy who sold us our wedding veils. Man, so she's just straight shit talking in this article. Again, but doing it in the nice, nasty, way of like, oh yeah, I was there. And, you know, I advised Jules to, you know, go, go talk to Anne. And I told Anne, go for it. You know, blah, blah, blah. Bullshit. We see through you, Abby. We see through you. Yeah. What's fascinating about this article is that Abby just went off on Anne. She told stories that, in my opinion, were not hers to tell at all. And she always positioned herself as the better one.

Abby told the reporter that she kept a copy of the book, The Hostile Mind, by her bedside, and she read it every now and then so that she could figure out why Anne behaved so badly. Anne Landers is a boring old bitty. What's that? So Ned Flanders said about Anne Landers when he drank a blackberry schnapps.

Well, Ned was wrong. I'm just saying. That's something Abby might say about her dear sister. Well, I think she's a way meaner than Ned Flanders. The hostile mind, I keep this book by my bedside to consult as to the mysteries of my sister's behavior. She's the bad one. I also keep a copy of The Art of War to prepare myself when I confront my sister during the holidays. Abby also talked about what it was like when they all lived in O'Clair,

Wisconsin. Abby highlighted how wealthy she and Mort had been, and she highlighted how not wealthy Anne and Jules had been. Now, everyone, in fairness to Abby, it's very difficult to say something absolutely awful without giving the impression that you yourself are absolutely awful, but she did give it her best shot. She implied that her husband, Mort, had done Jules a huge favor by hiring him. Oh, how nice. She said that she didn't like having more than her twin. No. Or being the more prominent one.

Oh, no. It was just something that happened. Aw. And it's all because we don't live together anymore. They separated us. Oh, well, hang on to that thought. Oh, no. That was a joke, but.

Here's the thing. Sadly, and this is a real bummer, Ann just couldn't handle any of it. She couldn't handle me being the more prominent one. she couldn't handle it. And that's why Anne forced Jules to quit his job. Because Anne just couldn't stand to be

in O'Clair where she would always be second fiddle. So that's just a lie. Yeah, I think that's... Well, who knows? Maybe Anne did want to get away from her sister. But honest to God, who could blame her? Listening to this crap, who could blame her? Yeah, she wanted to be her own person.

Now, it's definitely worth noting that unlike Abby, Anne didn't tell the reporter a bunch of unprompted, immature bullshit about Abby. But she did defend herself. She said that Mort didn't hire Jules as some act of charity. She said, quote, we went to O'Clair because he was the best salesman Presto ever had and because Mort needed somebody solid beside him. Yeah. When asked about Abby's assertion that Anne forced her husband. been to quit his job, Anne responded, how can she say that? Jules makes his own decisions. He'd outgrown presto. Yeah, he moved on to the Ballpoint Pen Company of Chicago. That's right. But Norm,

I've saved the best for last. Oh. There is a paragraph in this article that is absolutely nuts, and I am now going to read it to you verbatim. For years, Anne says she has been trying to escape twinhood and to prove that she is an individual in her own right. For years, Abby says she has been trying to get her twin back. Quote, I understand why she's disturbed, Abby says. She wanted to be the first violin in the school orchestra, but I was. She swore she'd marry a millionaire, but I did. She adds innocently, I'm not trying to be the champion. It's just like playing poker. It's If you don't have to win, you get the cards. And she always just had to win.

But I love her. Anne replies, that's her fantasy. She's just like a kid who beats a dog until somebody looks and then starts petting it. Whoa. Can you believe that? Um, that, oh, well, no wonder they hated each other. That is some bullshit spewing from Abby's. mouth.

Can you imagine? Drive me bonkers. Being a 39-year-old woman talking to a reporter and saying she wanted first chair in high school and I got it. She swore she'd marry a millionaire, but I did. This is ridiculous. It says way more about Abby than Ann. Thank you.

Thank you. That is what I'm just gobsmacked by. Abby thinks she's telling on Anne, but she is telling on herself. So immature. Inferiority complex. Oh, my God. What was I going to say? I think you were bowled over by the bullshit. I'm just shocked by how it's like this woman has an advice column and this is how she feels.

Yes. There are so many things to be said for it. And I think it's wild to me to read that and also read her column because she's so good in her column, I think, and really shares some wisdom with people. And it's like, lady, how are you not applying this to your own life? You know, I think that's kind of common with even therapists too, though. Like, you know, they, they, their job is to help other people work through their, their problems, but like they struggle themselves. Yeah. I don't know how common that is. I feel like that's like a stereotype or trope or something. Yeah, the cobbler's,

son has no shoes, that kind of thing? Yeah. I guess I'm also kind of floored by both of these women were so image conscious. And I'm amazed that Abby wasn't able to see, okay, by saying this stuff, I will probably hurt my own image. By being this immature, I think also I'm just like, part of it is that I am also 39. And I'm like, holy crap, all this is is proof that we can get older. but wisdom is not guaranteed, maturity is not guaranteed. Right.

It's just aging is guaranteed. Right. Incredible. Father time is undefeated. This article hit newsstands and it was explosive. Suddenly, everyone knew about the feud between the sisters. This feud would become part of their permanent public narrative. And as difficult as that had to be on a personal level,

it was really good for business. Oh, yeah. I think people love drama. Of course. And after that article came out, the sisters found themselves in higher demand than ever before. Around this time, it was pretty common for popular columnists to produce pamphlets. So Anne and Abby both wrote pamphlets on a variety of topics.

But even that was a point of contention. Because if you'll remember from last week's episode, Abby owned Dear Abby. She created it. She owned the trademark, which meant that she kept all the money from those pamphlets. But Anne didn't own Anne Landers, which meant she only kept a portion of the money she made from those pamphlets. On top of that, syndicated writers got a percentage of the fee that newspapers pay to print their work.

Anne was given a small percentage, likely due to the nature of how she'd gotten her column. She'd won a contest. The men who employed her and many of the men who worked around her probably didn't take her too seriously. They were doing her a favor by allowing her to become a syndicated columnist. And honestly, in the beginning, Anne might have even agreed with them. But just a few years into the job, and Anne had more than proven her worth. Unfortunately, she just wasn't getting paid what she was worth. Yeah.

That is why, man, owning your creation and owning your work is so important. Yeah. Yeah. I'm a big advocate of that. It's just hard. I mean, I can see how you would fall into this trap. You just feel lucky. And then all of a sudden turns out you're really good at what you do.

And then you realize, oh, I was unlucky to have gotten this job this way. Yeah. But you know who was definitely getting paid what she was worth? Abigail Van Buren. That's right. Right off the bat, her syndicate gave her 50% of the fee that each newspaper paid to carry her column. Plus, they paid for her to go on tour, they paid for her administrative assistance, and a bunch of other stuff. She's an influencer. Yeah. Content creator. Uh-huh. And as the cherry on top of a very emotionally immature woman Sunday, when Abby published her book, Dear Abby, which was simply a compilation of her greatest hits, Abby got all the money from the sales of that book.

She didn't have to pay the syndicate anything, which is mind-boggling to me. By the way, sat on the bestseller list for six months. I'm in the money. My sister can suck it. Of course, Abby always gave her husband more a ton of credit for her success. And some of that might have been lip service. But I personally think that when it comes to her financial, success, her husband played a major role in supporting her.

Absolutely. Okay, why do you say that? Well, I think as somebody who grew up in a family that ran a very large, successful business, he probably had some good insight on like, hey, let's make your business a success. I think that's exactly right. Yeah. I also think that, you know, Mort grew up in wealth. He grew up surrounded by wealth.

Yes. which obviously there are some downsides to that but a plus side is that when your wife then starts to make some money it doesn't feel threatening to you it doesn't make you do that bullshit thing of well but am i a man now or what no he just went with it he gave her advice he helped her out and he seemed genuinely happy for her success yeah he's like oh more money awesome abby was fortunate in Mort Phillips, she'd found a confident, mature partner who wasn't threatened by her. Well, when you're the heir to the presto pressure cooker fortune. Then you've got it made in the shade.

Got it made. Don't forget the liquor, Norm. You can't forget about the booze. Right, which some of our Minnesota history hose have said, oh, yeah, we're very familiar with Phillips. It was like the cheapest liquor you could buy in college. so we drank it a lot. Yeah, all those messages were just riddled with typos. I don't know what to make of it.

But what about Ann? Anne wasn't so lucky. Nope, you know what she was. What? Anne Landers is a boring old bitty. You better quit that. I'm going to punch Ned Flanders in the face. He was drunk, Kristen.

Remember, and he'll never drink again. He drank that cheap Phillips crap. Her husband, Jules Lederer, was many things. He was creative, charming, a hard worker. but I submit that he wasn't confident. And that had a big impact on their marriage. Because in my personal opinion, Jules was a lot like Abby. Jules wanted to be the hero, the prominent one, the one who made all the money.

And for nearly all of their marriage, he'd held that role. But now Anne was a syndicated columnist, and she was a damn good one. She was traveling more than ever before. She was working long hours. She had a staff that reported to her. She was making money. But Jules insisted that she not pay any of the household bills with her money because that was his job. He was a man.

God, God. Masculinity thing, huh? Yeah. It felt emasculated. That is a nightmare. That is a nightmare. I'm sure this happens in all relationships, but I think especially in heterosexual relationships, that is the nightmare.

When you've been with someone for a while, you realize, oh, they are threatened by my accomplishments. They will work against me. Oof, that's never good. How do you feel about my armchair psychology where I've decided that Abby married her sister and Anne married her sister? Oof, it's a scorching take. but I can see where you're coming from. I'll admit, folks, I never took a psychology class, which I think oddly makes me even more confident in my theory

because I have nothing to go against it. But I think I might be on to something. Hey, we love the confidence, Christian. Thank you. Thank you. The truth was that Anne's career was taking off at the same time that her husband's career was stalling out. The ballpoint pen industry wasn't doing well. Well, get a load.

You kidding me? Get a load of this, Norm. See, when Jewels first took the job as president of AutoPoint, makers of ballpoint pins, I don't have to remind you. And pencils, I found out. They did it all, baby. They kind of did a lot of stuff. Any kind of writing utensil. Uh-huh.

Yeah. He implemented a big sales campaign. It was the kind of thing that took a lot of time, a lot of effort, a lot of money, you know, with results that would have to be proven in time. Sure. So initially, even though the owners of Otto Point heard stories from employees about how short-tempered Jules was and what an asshole he could be, they initially backed him because they wanted to give him the chance to succeed. Kept hiring former NBA players. That's right. And yelling at them.

These fellas don't know shit about the pin industry. But time kept ticking. And the big sales campaign didn't do so great. and morale kept sinking, and the higher-ups who'd been initially so supportive of jewels began to wonder if he wasn't cut out for the job. Son, this ballpoint pen industry, it's too rough for you. Too rough and tumble.

You're not cut out for it. We're going to send you down to crayons, okay? Oh, is it like the minor leagues of the ballpoint pen? Yes, it is. So he's going to Crayola. Don't you talk shit about Crayola? What was the, um, shit, the competitor to Crayola? Rose art?

I don't know. Hang on. I do know. It was Rosart. Is it Rosart crayons? Norm. Yes. My father worked for Hallmark cards.

Okay. We were a Crayola family. Did Hallmark own Crayola? Yes. How dare you? You're blowing my mind here. Yeah. Yeah.

Wow. This is kind of like finding out you've been married to Mort Phillips the whole time, huh? No. I wasn't going to say that. I had the 64 pack of Crayolas. all the time, brand new. Now, if you had revealed to me your father actually owned Hallmark, and he wasn't simply the HR manager.

Simply the, wow, Dad, sorry. Sorry, Norm is so mean. No, I'm sorry, DP. That was not meant as an insult. I mean, he wanted to be the owner of Hallmark cards, but he just couldn't do it. And it's the same way with when you play poker, if some people just have to win.

Am I right, Norm? You didn't have it in them. I hear that my dad wanted to be first chair in the school orchestra, but you were. Isn't that right? Isn't that right? I was, what chair was I? My dad had a nose job to make his nose bigger. Oh, my God.

Well, we can't say he got a nose job to make it smaller. Kristen. Well, I mean, hey, we all have the same nose, okay. No, you've got your mom's nose. Thank you. Kyla has your dad's nose. Ouch. Thoughts and prayers to Kyla and to my dad.

I'm sorry to, you know, bring facts and logic to this podcast. We pity the Kleenex. Wow. I got to save you there. Jules knew that he was in hot water. So he did something drastic in the hopes that it would pay off. And oh my God, he found the perfect thing. Okay.

He found this factory in Puerto Rico. Okay. And he wanted to use it as a supplier for one of the company's ballpoint pin lines. Okay. It was a perfect idea. Don't question it. I'm getting excited over here. You're ready to invest some of our money into this, and I totally get it.

Jules was certain that if they just invested in this factory, his career would turn around. In fact, he was so certain that he took all of his and Anne's personal savings and invested it in that factory. I'm sorry, what? I'm sorry that you hate investments for him. I'm sorry that you hate smart business decisions. His personal savings and he put it into a company he didn't even own? I... That's bonkers to me.

I find it hard to believe that he would be that stupid. I'm sure there had to be some detail that I'm missing, but maybe I'm not because here's the thing that no one saw coming. The deal with the factory fell through... I'm sorry. Fell what? God, now we have to keep it. Come again? It fell through, which is what happened when I tried to say the words fell through.

It fell through. Fuck. Jules lost all of their savings. Yeah, there's some details missing here because I'm just thinking about when I worked at Dairy Queen. When I was in high school and if my manager's like, oh, business is slow. We really got to pick it up. And I was like, I found an ice cream vendor I think is going to do really well for Dairy Queen. Queen and I just put my own money into Dairy Queen.

Yeah, but you weren't the president of the Dairy Queen. You were the... I'm still an employee. Sure. I'm not Warren Buffett. I don't own Dairy Queen. Anne was always very careful about Jules's ego. She knew that it didn't take much for him to feel emasculated.

So even though she was panicking on the inside, she tried not to show it on the outside. She kept supporting him. She didn't question him. He was still the president of AutoPoint. He still had some fight in him. You cute little guy. You can do it, buddy. Not long after he lost that money, Jules took a trip out to L.A.

He met up with Anne's cousin, Maury Merkin, which that is... Okay. What? Sorry, go ahead. I'm premature factually. Go ahead. Oh, what fact could you possibly be sharing right now? Is there going to be an affair?

An affair with the cousin? Well, I think Mori's a dude, and Jules was straight. I mean, I'm not ruling it out. I guess I wasn't there. I actually didn't know that fact, so maybe. Never mind. Go on. Mori had started this little rental car business, and it wasn't doing great. Jules didn't know much about the rental car business or the industry in general,

but he thought Mory had something. Jules began brainstorming. Why are you smiling? Do you enjoy brainstorming so much? You just have to smile? I'm thinking of a rental car company that's struggling, and it's because their name is terrible. Oh, okay.

What would be the worst name? I got no car. Yeah. Yeah. I got no car. Oh, he began brainstorming. Maybe the pricing needed tweaking. Maybe he needed a whole fleet of nicer, newer cars

to attract a different set of customers. Mm-hmm. Maybe. Whoa, whoa, whoa, hang on, hang on. Maybe. Instead of just having one little rental car business, somebody could franchise this business so that, hold on, hold on, imagine this. Stick with me. You could rent a car in one location and drop it off in a totally different location. Wow. It was unheard of at that time. Really? Yep. Hmm.

Okay. Well, that's how it is today. That's pretty standard, so. Sure. Jules believed in the idea. Sure, Mori's car rental business was kind of struggling, but it had such a good name. It's all about that name. Budget rent a car.

Ah, budget. Jules knew it had potential. Kristen, it's all connected. Uh-huh. Well, we never talk about budget rent a car. before, but we've used budget rent a car before. I've seen it in an airport. Yeah.

Way better than their old name. I got no car. So, he began building the budget rent-a-car business while also still being president of AutoPoint. Ah. He did a super cool, very fun thing with his employees, where he was like, yeah, so I see you're going out on that business trip for AutoPoint. But while you're out there, I want you to also do some work.

for this new rental car thing I've got going. Oh, and while you're there, I want you to go meet with the editor of the local newspaper and tell him that he should run the Ann Landers column. Okay, thank you very much. Thank you. He's triple dipping right here. Yeah, the employees loved it.

They thought it was real fun. See, I thought what he was going to do was he was going to send his employees to some other place and say, okay, you're probably going to need a rental car here. make sure you go with budget rent a car. But it hadn't been franchised yet. Oh, okay. There was only one location.

Oh, gotcha. Okay, I'm thinking too far ahead. You are way too far ahead. And you're thinking he's going to keep his job way longer than he does. Yeah, I mean, if he's doing this shit, he's gone in a heartbeat. The writing's on the wall, Norm. And it's on the wall because it's a ballpoint pen company. That's right.

Can't be erased. Jules didn't have time to worry about pissing off his employees. He was too busy trying to build up budget. rent a car. He hit up everyone he could for investments, including Abby's husband, Mort Phillips. That had to be a little awkward since Anne and Abby were not speaking at all, but Mort had money. So Jules asked for it. And Mort was like, wait, you want to apply franchising to the rental car industry? I don't think so, pal. If that was such a good idea, somebody would have done it by now. That's so interesting to me because it seems like the obvious idea.

I get it, though, because sometimes a new idea is something that you only see because you're on the cutting edge and you're coming up with new technology. And other times, you come up with something that makes sense. But yeah, you do think to yourself, well, surely multiple people have tried to do this before. And they've failed for some reason. and if I try it, I'm just going to hit one of those obstacles that other people have also hit before. Yeah. Surely there's a name for that fallacy, right? It just seems like, you know, you rent a car and you drive somewhere.

You shouldn't be expected to bring it all the way back from where you rented it from. It just seems like an obvious thing to franchise. Right, but it wasn't obvious at that time. And I think a big factor was probably what cars used to be like. it used to be that cars were a lot more unreliable. Yeah, and I guess doing long-distance road trips was like not quite as big. The highway system was being built. Or you had to really, you had to really trust the vehicle you were in.

Gotcha. Okay. And so, so yeah, if you opened up a little car rental place, chances are that everyone was just expecting, yeah, I'll drive this around town while I'm here. Yes. Okay, okay. You're not going to believe it, but before long, Jules quit his job as president of of the ballpoint pen company. Oh, he quit? Yes.

Okay, I surely thought he's going to get fired for this bullshit. Oh, he saw the writing on the wall. Come on. So he focused full-time on applying the franchise model to the rental car industry. And in the meantime, Anne and Abby cemented their places as America's leading advice columnists. In time, they both came to appreciate the impact of their columns. They wrote about cancer. They wrote about suicide.

They wrote about issues that were sometimes shocking. to see in print in a newspaper. And perhaps it was their upbringing, or perhaps it was the result of receiving letters from so many people who were struggling that gave Anne and Abby a great deal of empathy for other people. Placed in the position to judge other people's problems, they often advocated for less judgment. And I'd like to read a few examples of columns that were pretty cutting edge for their day. I will warn everyone, though, They have not aged perfectly. So hang tight.

Okay, let's hear you. This first one comes from Dear Abby. It was printed not too long after birth control pills became really popular. Should I get my thinking cap on? No, no, no. These are much more straightforward. We'll see about that. Okay.

The earliest I found this printed was in 1973. Okay. Dear Abby, my telephone just rang. It was a doctor telling me that my 16-year-old daughter was just in his office asking for birth control pills. Abby, what are these young people doing to us mothers? I knew she had a steady boyfriend, but I never dreamed they were in need of anything like that. I am heart-sick. I tried to raise this girl right.

Where have I failed? Signed. Ashamed to sign my name. Good Lord. was this during a time where you could just call the parents and say, yeah, your kid was in here and they had this problem? I bet you this still happens today. Hippa violation there, anything? I don't know.

I don't know the rules around this. Dear ashamed. You haven't failed. And if you tried to raise her right, you need not be ashamed. I'm not in favor of premarital sex for teenagers. But once a girl has gone all the way, it's unrealistic to think that she will stop simply because she is denied the pill. So then what? She risks becoming pregnant. And if she does, what has the doctor accomplished? He will have been responsible for, A, an unwanted baby, B, an abortion, or C, a hasty marriage.

Which would you choose for your daughter? If you are among those mothers who say, if that's the way she's going to act and let her suffer the consequences, please consider the baby. Don't you think every child should come into this world wanted by its natural mother? I do. Ooh, it's a good answer. I think that is wildly ahead of its time. 1973? Yeah.

Yeah, I think so too. And also, common sense. Yes. That was very controversial for her to say at the time. but I think it is common sense. It might not be what this mother wanted to hear. I'm sure it wasn't. No.

But it's common sense and it's kind of saying, let's drop the shock and horror and let's see this for what it is. Right. The second one also comes from Dear Abby. It ran in 1975. Dear Abby, Our tall, handsome athletic son served four years in the Navy, returned to civilian life in college and married and undersized a feminine male hairdresser.

We have no idea how to handle this situation or our ambivalent feelings. This odd couple came to visit us and they want us to visit them. They are inseparable and act out a peculiar husband-wife relationship that is both bewildering and disturbing to us. So far we have been polite. but what the dickens do you say to friends and relatives? We can't condone it. We love this boy. But as his parents, we feel torn and hypocritical to say the least. Signed, torn. Here's how she responded in 1975. Dear Torn, you owe friends and relatives no explanation. So don't feel obligated to offer any. Since your son's lifestyle bewilders and disturbs you, you either learn to accept it or quit seeing.

him. That is short and to the point. You know, it's funny. There's part of me, you know, you hear about LGBT people being disowned by their parents and relatives. And obviously, that is so sad and awful. And so there's part of me that feels a little upset with that response. But at the same time, again, I think it does make sense. It's saying, okay, you say, you say, you. You say, you love your son, either love him and accept him or drop it. Just stop. Right. Don't have this weird. Stop judging him and stop. Yeah. Because that's not good for anybody. No, because even if you try to fake it and you see him and you see his husband,

they're going to know some things up. They're going to feel it. And it's just going to be more painful. Yeah. But again, that is very ahead of its time, I think, to not give into, You're kidding me. A man who was in the Navy surrounded by dudes wants to marry a dude? A gay man in the Navy? What's next? And you say they act like they love each other?

How terrible! If I had my way, your son would be loveless for the rest of his life. Yeah. it is ridiculous. This ran in 1980. Ugh, Ann Landers. Stop it! Ann Landers is a boring old bitty. Okay, well, you know, I am going to read a bad one, so I guess Ned can share his comments.

Maybe Ned has a point here? He might. This is so stupid. Dear Anne Landers, Bisexual women not only freak out their husbands, they freak out other women. I didn't know such females' existence. until a couple of years ago. Out of a clear blue sky,

a woman I had known for years suddenly confessed that she was in love with me and had been for a long time. I didn't know how to act. I was shocked and dumbfounded, totally unprepared for such a confrontation. Apparently, I was too naive to get the signals she had been sending out.

What's more? The whole thing seemed revolting. Needless to say, I terminated our friendship then and there. Oh, what a bitch. I don't want a recurrence of this unpleasant episode, yet how do I avoid it? I'm 35 and have never been married. I was shy as a teenager and didn't date much. I never learned how to attract men and probably never will.

I am busy with my work and reasonably happy. While I would like a man, I won't die if one doesn't come along. How can I avoid future advances of this kind? Once in a lifetime is enough, thank you. Signed. An old man. Oh, I'm sorry. An old man.

I'm sorry. Signed. An old maid, but plenty straight. Okay. Can I go ahead and comment before we hear, Anne Landers? Sure, sure. One, this woman is probably a lesbian and is deeply ashamed. Yeah.

from some homophobia, homophobia. Internalized homophobia? Yeah. And two, it's that whole thing of like, oh, if you're gay or lesbian or bye, you're like this sexual pervert deviant and you're gross and weird. And it's like, I've watched the golden girls, Kristen. Boy, I was like, what's going to pop out of his mouth next? Golden girls, I would not have predicted. Go ahead.

There was an episode where one of the ladies' friends fell in love with Rose. Mm-hmm. And so this was kind of the theme of the episode. It was like, what do I do? What do I do? Oh, she's a lesbian. Oh, my gosh. And it was like, it's fine.

You should be flattered and you can respectfully decline an advance if, you know. The same way. way you would if anybody else hit on you. Exactly. Dumbass. Yeah, this woman clearly got some issues going on, this old maid. Anyway, what does Anne Landers say? Here we go.

Dear, straight, you didn't invite that advance, and you may well get another. Your best protection is to be alert to women who buy you gifts for no reason, who suggest taking a trip together and who get on to the subject of lesbianism. Since kissing and hugging among straight women is so commonplace in our culture, this is not much of a clue unless you feel it is excessive. Then, of course, you cool it. The moment you suspect something is out of kilter, split! It serves no useful purpose to show disgust or revulsion and create an ugly incident. And Landers is a boring old bitty. Um, I have to tell you, My favorite line is your best protection is to be alert to women who buy you gifts for no reason, who suggest taking a trip together.

It made me think of that scene in bridesmaids. What woman takes another woman to Paris? Lesbians. Oh, my gosh. What the hell? This sucks. This sucks. Who side am I supposed to be on Ann Landers side or Abigail Van Bure?

inside. Because right now, Abby's an asshole, but her advice is way better. Okay, Norm, this, welcome to my world, my dude. I like Abby's column better. Now, Anne did evolve in the right way. She didn't evolve at the speed that Abby did. I think Abby was way ahead of Anne when it came to LGBT stuff. Well, you know, I just thought of this. She was 11th in California, right? She was, yeah. I wonder if that had anything to do with it.

God, I didn't even think about that. Maybe it did. Because California girls, they're undeniable. Fine, fresh, fierce, they've got it on lock. Wow, Norm, did you just make that up? No, that's just common knowledge. Oh, okay, okay. You know, I also think, and this is tough,

I think Abby said what was on her mind for better or worse. She said what was on her mind. She thought it wasn't bad to be gay. So she just said it. Yeah. You know, she thought her sister sucked ass. So she just said it.

You know, I mean, I think that's part of what we're dealing with here. And maybe part of my problem is some stuff I like. And some stuff, I'm like, get it together, lady. This is ridiculous. But that is life. I do have to say about this Anne Landers column I just read. And folks, I realize we have some younger listeners. So gather around my dears around the campfire while Granny Kristen tells you about the way it used to be.

This used to be a thing. I feel like it doesn't happen as much anymore. But it used to be a thing where straight people would talk in horrified tones. about the possibility of a gay person being interested in them. And it was like they were just on the alert for this to happen. And I'm going to say something rude, something mean, something immature in the spirit of Dear Abby. But it's something that I fully believe. It's something I noticed back in the day and I was always amused by it.

And I'm just going to say it now. You know what all of those people had in common? Seriously, every single person who ever said, oh, but what if, because I went to an all women's college. So I got a lot of the, well, what if you get hit on? It's not a big deal. Lesbians tend to respect your boundaries a lot more than straight dudes in a club. But anyhow, so a lot of people, very worried about getting hit on by gay people. You know what they all have in common, Norm?

It's rude. It's rude. Even if you think it, you might not want to say it out loud. Spray tans. What? What? They all had spray tans. No.

Then what? There's something in that tan mixture. They were all unattractive, physically unattractive. Oh, Kristen. I'm serious. I am serious. They were physically unattractive. Interesting.

And obviously nobody knew they were telling on themselves with that shit. but I think what it really came down to for a lot of people was, what if the first time I get hit on, it's not by someone I could even remotely be interested in. So their own insecurities? Yeah, of course it's their own insecurities. That was also a conversation among the boys. Sure.

It's like, oh, ooh, you're gay, you know. Right, right, right. Oh, what if a gay guy hits on me? And I always thought of it as like, oh, I would be flattered if that happened. Yeah. No shit. It's like, oh, someone likes me or is attracted to me. Right.

Yeah, I, you know, I can't reciprocate, but like, I would be, I would be flattered. It would be just the same as if a woman you weren't attracted to hit on you. Like, it's the exact same thing. Yeah. So you take it as flattering and you move on with your life. Or you freak the fudge out and you write a letter to Anne Landers. And Anne Landers is like, hey, you know how we're constantly getting gifts and being offered trips, you gotta say no.

Yeah, or you know, you start carrying a pike with you at all times. A pike. You know, like a knife on a stick. Oh, that's the only way. Get away from me. Yes, violence. Wonderful, Norm. Well, it's for protection, Kristen.

Oh, sure. Okay. Yeah, that's what you do to knock the gifts out of people's hands because they're always coming at you. Just the thought of. some guy sliding his tongue down my throat, maybe fingering my butt hole a little.

It's just disgusting. And then maybe he whispers some things in my ear. I can't take it. Again, I can't emphasize how definitely straight I am. Okay, this next one, and this is going to be the last one. Oh, wait, no.

I've got a couple more. Oh. We're going to have to go a little faster. Oh, wait, no. I just have one more. I'm sorry. Okay. Let's get it together. Okay, I know you're thinking about the butthole thing you're in, but let's get it together, Kristen. Okay. All right. This is another Dear Abby one. Before I read this one, I want to say again, some of the terms that are used in here are not terms we would use today, but I'm going to read it verbatim and keep in mind, this ran in the year of our Lord 1974. Here we go. What a year. Dear Abby, I am a 23-year-old male name.

nurse. I love sports, and I excelled in track. I was saved by the grace of Jesus Christ two years ago. I read the Bible daily and sing in the gospel choir. Even though I am a born-again Christian, I am miserable. All my life I have wanted to be a woman. I would love to be on the U.S. Women's Olympic Track Team. I can cook, sew, and type. I have never cared anything about mechanics, engineering, or any of the so-called masculine careers. I hate hunting and fishing. I could never kill a living thing. Abby, this secret desire to be a woman is about to destroy me. I am not a homosexual, but I'd give anything to have a sex change operation. Where is this done? Is it against the law? I will go anywhere. I'd rather be dead than continue living like this. Abby, if the Lord really loves me, why did he give me a man's body

when I feel and think like a woman. I have been this way all my life. Please help me. Signed, saved, but different. Wow. Here's what she says. That was a tough letter. Yeah.

Yeah. Dear saved. The Lord created all of us. Why he made you different, I don't know. Nature sometimes makes biological blunders, as is the case when one's body does not conform with his or her natural feelings. You are not alone. Don't feel guilty. One cannot help what he feels. I believe that knowledge, skill, and talent are divinely inspired, and that those scientists,

physicians, whose combined efforts have made sex change operations possible, do so with God's guidance. For information about sex reassignment surgery and related problems, inquire at the nearest medical school that has a human sexuality program. Holy shit. That's incredible. That's like a better answer than some of the shit we hear today. Yes, it is. Yeah.

By far. Again, some outdated terms, but the heart of that letter is incredible. Yes. Non-judgmental gives more information like you're not alone, offer support. Yeah. That's a great answer. It's so touching. Yeah.

It's so touching and you see something like that and you wonder how many people that helped. Not just people who were struggling, but just other people who had no idea that that was something another person could go through. Yeah. And to hear how devastating it is for someone to feel like my insides don't match my outsides. Right. And to see a person in a position of authority not go, oh, well, get it together. But to respond with, you're not alone. Don't feel guilty.

Yeah. I wonder how Ann Landers would have answered that. I don't think she would have answered it, honestly. Now it makes a lot more sense why Ned Flanders family read Ann Landers. I don't know, though. When we do our bonus episode, some of the letters that Ann Landers printed, I was, I mean, full vomit emoji, what she was willing to print. Really? Yes.

Well, you know, you listeners out there, you're just going to have to sign up on our Patreon to hear that episode. Or as norms as it, consider signing up. Please consider it, you know. So all this to say that Anne and Abby were pushing the envelope. They were occasionally in hot water for their opinions. Oftentimes they found themselves in kind of the same controversy at the same time for saying basically the same thing. But because of their feud, they couldn't even commiserate with each other. Now that did change for a while.

In the early 60s, Abby started reaching out to Anne. But Anne didn't respond to her letters. She didn't even respond when Abby sent a literal olive branch. Oh, a little two on the nose there. I mean, and who could blame her? Sure. For going no contact after reading or hearing about what she said about, I mean. Of course.

But yeah, I don't want you in my life. And it's not just about what was in the Life magazine article. I'm sure it's the years that led up to it. Yes. And, man, sometimes you just needed an incident like that Life magazine article to really set you straight. Yeah. But after a few years, Anne picked up the phone and called Abby. Abby was stunned to hear Anne's voice on the other end of the line.

Anne said, what do you and Mort plan on doing for your 25th anniversary? And Abby was like, well, we're going to Bermuda. and Ann said, want to make it a foursome? Wow. Yeah. So they were speaking again. They were friendly again, kind of. Just be careful that Bermuda triangle.

And that's how the story ends. They got lost in the Bermuda Triangle. Damn. You're really bearing the lead there, Chris. And I was not expecting this. So things were good-ish. And thank God, the feud had been exhausting for damn near everyone, but for the people who profited off of it.

I realize now saying that, Anne and Abby both profited off it, but we're not counting them. By that point, Abby had more newspapers running her column. She'd won, if we want to think of it like that. But it didn't take too long for things to go wonky again. Because in 1965, Anne got what she deserved. By that point, she'd been Ann Landers for 10 years.

And the Chicago Sun Times and her syndicate It did something really big and really nice for her. They didn't just publicly celebrate her and give her her flowers. They gave her ownership of the Anne Landers name. Wow. That is huge. Yeah. But, you know, she deserved that.

She earned it. And now, again, if we want to think of it this way, she and Abby were even. Abby owned Dear Abby. Oh, but Abby didn't like this. Owned Ann Landers. Hey, Norm, maybe it's a coincidence. What happened next? Or maybe it's not.

Abby went to her own syndicate and demanded more. She already had a pretty sweet deal, but she wanted a higher percentage of profits. And this is totally weird to me, but which rich people do weird shit sometimes. She wanted the syndicate to pay her income tax. she didn't like how much she was paying in taxes. Cover the taxes? Yeah, which is not a thing. So the syndicate was like, what?

No, we can't do that. But Abby was really dead set. I don't know. I'm sure there's some weird. Because she had to count it as income. It's like just getting a raise. That's stupid. Anyway, that's a ridiculous demand.

And Abby wouldn't budge on it. they needed to find a way to do that or she would walk. Word got out in the media about her demands. It really does appear that her syndicate was just floored by this, not only by what she was demanding, but by the fact that she wouldn't even consider their counteroffer. So she switched syndicates, which meant she got a lot more money,

and I don't know the details of it, but an expert in these types of contracts was, interviewed for their biography. And he said that Abby's contract was, quote, one of the most unusual in the journalism field or, for that matter, any business. So I don't know what she and Mort got negotiated, but I'm sure it was pretty nice. Man. And then Abby started doing commercials. She did a commercial for Piccadilly Circles. You familiar? Circles. They're a brand of English muffin. I've not seen them. before.

So they must, I mean, the commercial must not have done too well. The only English muffin company I know about is Thomas. Seems like they were really only around in the early 70s. I'm on a website called In The70s.com, and they have a page all about Piccadilly Circles. These were like mini pizzas, except they had cheddar cheese instead of mozzarella and maybe bacon bits on them. Oh, gross. Yum. Okay, well, anyway, close that tab before you get too hungry.

Like, do you ever do English muffin pizzas as a kid? Hell yeah! Yeah, those were great. Oh, what was that? Ta-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a. Pizza on a bagel. Yeah. Pizza in the morning, pizza in the evening, pizza at supper time.

Oh, wow. When pizza's on a bagel, you can eat pizza any time. Norm, why was that so sexy? It was a sexy commercial. It was. When you're a kid and you're craving pizza, it's sexy. It's sexy. A lot of unexplained feelings.

Yeah, the sexual feelings are towards food as a child. Sure. So she starts doing these commercials. And Anne lost her ever-loving shit. She made her disgust known. She thought that Abby's decision to do commercials was tacky and wrong. Oh, you're a sell out. Anne said, quote,

The work that we are doing is hard enough to keep at a decent level and keep it respectable. Then something like this happened. Oh, give me a break. I agree. This is like when I would have a sponsor in one of my YouTube videos and people would lose their freaking mind. Yes. Okay, what did you think that was about? You know, it's been, you know, 10 plus years and I'm still flabbergasted by that reaction to a sponsor and a YouTube video.

Yeah, I mean, if Norm gets on YouTube and says Bagel Bites make me horny, you know, that's his business, okay? and if bagel bites wants to pay him a million dollars to say that, then I'm so sorry that we have a circle driveway and a hot tub. I mean, what can we do? And maybe I actually feel that way, huh? Oh, you definitely feel that way. We all heard you sing it. It can't be denied now.

Now I want some bagel bites. I bet you do. This is a morning recording, by the way. You know, it's lunchtime's coming up. Yeah. And we could have those bagel bites in the morning and the evening, even at supper time. Abby responded to Anne's disgust.

in a classic sibling way, which is, oh, you didn't like that I did that? Watch me do it again. I'm going to do it even harder. This time, Abby starred in a commercial for milk. Milk. But this time, it wasn't just Anne who got mad because in that commercial, Abby said the following ridiculous thing. You ready? Quote, I very seldom have a cold. I think I probably can attribute that to the fact that I have been a milk drinker. all my life. Yeah. To which the FTC was like, oh, really?

You've never had a cold because you drink milk? Can't make that claim. That's false and misleading. Get your little milk mustache out of here. Anne was maybe a little thrilled to see her sister get in trouble. She took the opportunity

to publicly highlight the difference between herself, good, and her sister, bad. She wrote, quote, I have never endorsed a product in my life. and I never will. Ann Landers is not for sale at any price. There it is.

Now, I hate to say this, hate to mention it, but I think it needs mentioning. Anne actually had a contract with the Chicago Sun Times, which prohibited her from endorsing products. Oh, so she legally could not endorse a product, but she passes it off as, I would just never do that. Yeah, honey, you're jealous that your sister got the English muffins. You're jealous that your sister got the milk money.

Maybe you're jealous she's never had a cold in her whole life. I don't know. I attribute that to cream cheese and cottage cheese mixed together. Ew. That was a joke. That's gross. Trying to make our listeners sick at her stomach. So the feud between Anne and Abby was in a tricky place.

They both claimed it was over. And you know, they did interact. But they were on real shaky ground. And speaking of shaky ground, both Anne and Abby found themselves in a strange place. When they started out as advice columnists, they'd offered something new. They'd been fresh, vibrant, and exciting. And although they were progressive in a lot of ways, they were also behind the times in a couple ways. Oh?

For example, for a very long time, neither of them advocated for divorce. Divorce was not an option. Ah, yeah, I hate that. Even as late as 1968, Anne wrote about the evils of premarital sex. She said that it violates the moral and ethical rules of our society and that a woman should be a virgin until she gets married or dies, whichever comes first. Man, that sucks. Yeah, I don't think I have to tell you that that wasn't realistic. One of the best things about Anne and Abby, in my opinion, was, as we've mentioned, they were willing to change their minds.

They were willing to talk publicly about changing their minds. Yeah. But divorce? That was a tough one for Anne. There had to be a way to make a marriage work. There just had to be. After all, she and Jules were making it work, weren't they? At least they were in Anne's mind.

But then one day, Anne brings in the 12-pack of Coca-Cola from the car, not letting Jules bring it in, and he's emasculated. Is that from a movie or are you just imagining things? I'm just imagining something. something that would emasculate him. That seems so specific. You're bringing in the soda from the grocery store. A lot had changed since they first got married.

Hell, a lot had changed in just the previous few years. Jules' wild idea to apply the franchising model to the rental car industry had really paid off. I don't know if you folks know that. As a result, in 1968, the Transamerica Corporation bought budget rent a car. They offered Jules a five-year contract. to stay on as president. And he had. And man, when that deal came through,

oh my God, Jules felt so lucky. He was so rich, so rich. Nice. He'd been given $10 million in stock. Woo-hoo! Suck it haters! But wow, in just a short time, the value of that stock had plummeted.

Oh, no. He realized too late that he'd gotten a real bad deal. And to make matters worse, no one respected his authority anymore. Jules couldn't believe that some snot-nosed 37-year-old kid was telling him how to run a business that he had started. Things were not going well, Norm. He'd been complaining to colleagues about how often his wife was away on business. It'd been one thing for him to be a workaholic, but now she was one too. And then there was the money issue.

He wasn't as wealthy as he had once been. and that ate away at him. And it really ate away at him when Anne used her own money to buy them a new 14-room apartment located at 209 East Lakeshore Drive, Chicago, Illinois. So they lived in Lakeshore before? They lived in a different place. Yeah, yeah, I know. Woo-hoo-hoo, that's a nice building. Yeah, he had always been very insistent.

You know, of course, Mort with Abby had helped her invest her money, had helped her do all kinds of stuff. And Jules kind of treated Anne's money like it was a dirty little secret. Yeah. Like, okay, you can't pay the bills. That is your money. That's kind of your fun money. And, you know, maybe you can say that kind of condescending shit when someone's not making much. But Anne was making so much that, yeah, when he.

wasn't as wealthy as he wanted to be, she was able to say, well, that's okay, I got this. We want to move to a new place. I got it. And boy,

you get a perfect view of the lake. Uh-huh. It's a nice place. Beautiful building. There's a doorman. That just shows wealth right there. Oh, they're damn well.

Better be a doorman. Yeah, and it looks like there's a little rent-a-cop there, too. Kristen, if you would like to buy us a 14-room apartment overlooking... What's the lake by Chicago? Is it Lake Michigan? Yeah. If you want to do that, I fully support it you and I applaud it.

I mean, that's the thing. That's a partnership. Yes. A partnership means that you're happy to support one another. Yeah. And that's not what they had. Ann used her own money to decorate the place. And holy, holy moly, I mean, she never met a piece of furniture that was too gaudy or too European.

She went all out, bought a bunch of stuff straight onto British castles. She had some Picasso's on the wall. Damn. I mean, it was nice. But Jules took it personally. He thought that Anne was being insensitive to his own financial problems. Oh, give me a break, dude. But Anne was just enjoying the money that she had earned.

And by the way, he got to live there too. Yeah. Give me a break, dude. You go to Anne and say, hey, buy the entire Pier 1, import store. She can do it probably. Resentment festered, both at home and at work. As his five-year contract came to a close, Jules might have expected to be offered another contract.

But he wasn't. But Anne's cousin, the guy who'd originally started the business. Yeah. They kept him, but they gave Jules the boot. Jules spiraled. He couldn't believe all that he'd lost, so much money, so much power. and now his wife didn't need him for financial support. What kind of relationship could they even have?

A partnership? Ew, gross. Why don't you chop my dick off and throw it in Lake Michigan? And she could throw it in there right from the window. They're that close to the lake. Wouldn't even break a sweat. But if we've learned anything about Jules' Lederer, it's that he was always persistent.

He still had some money, so he bought a place in London. and he invested a million dollars in a European restaurant chain. It was called... Fuddruckers. No, so much better. The Great American Disaster. What? And Norm, it was a disaster.

Jules lost all that money. That is the worst name for a restaurant I have ever heard. It's terrible. It's terrible. What? The word disaster is in the name of the restaurant? Yeah. Well, dude, come on.

Up next, he invested a million dollars in some kind of of healthcare business. That turned out to be a disaster too. And yeah, poor Jules. He was successful, but not as successful as he wanted to be. And to hear him tell it, he felt neglected by his wife and his adult daughter, which give me a break, my dude. Oh, my God, dude.

Just enjoy your money and like... Enjoy your life. Enjoy life, yeah. It's not a freaking, like, attack on. you. Your wife is successful. And the women in your life are not your support staff. Yeah. Your adult daughter has three kids she's raising. Your wife has a huge job. Nationally syndicated columnist. Right. If you're feeling neglected, go with her on tour. Yeah. Spend time with her. Yeah. Go get a hobby. Or do something else. Norma's legend has it. One day while Jules was in London,

he got bit by a mosquito. That bite got infected. So he went to a doctor. And while he was there, he met a 25-year-old nurse. Oh, boy. Named Elizabeth Morton. Wait a minute. What?

Oh, wait, never mind. I'm thinking of the other guy's named Morton. Yeah. A lot of Mort's in this story. He starts banging Mort Phillips. Jules was in his late 50s. This woman was younger than his adult daughter. Okay.

May I look for a sound bite? Please do. this. We will accept gross ones only. This one always works. Okay. What the fuck. Yeah. Just a few months after they met, Jules moved Elizabeth into his townhome in London. Meanwhile, Anne was back home working. And as she did that, Jules got more and more brazen. He took Elizabeth to fancy restaurants, places that he would have gone with Anne, places that were frequented by his and Anne's friends. Soon, everyone knew that Jules was having an affair. Everyone. Everyone except for Anne. Without even knowing it, she was the subject of pity, giggles. She was an advice columnist who

couldn't even make her own marriage work. Oh, boy. Come on. To make matters even more humiliating, just a few years earlier, Anne had done something special in honor of their 30th wedding anniversary. She'd written a column in honor of jewels in honor of their relationship. I'd like to read a portion of it now. Oof, that's tough to know that you aren't getting the same level of support from your partner. Yeah. And not only that, but like he is like actively being shitty to you. Yeah. Poor Anne. Here's what she wrote on their 30th anniversary. Time, that subtle thief of youth, is often incursed by those who long to stop the clock or turn it back. But we want none of that. Each year has been better than the last because we have grown together. A good marriage, it is said, is made in heaven.

That might be true, but the maintenance work must be done right down here. A successful marriage is not a gift. It is an achievement. No real marriage can exist without differences in opinion and the ensuing battles. But battles can be healthy. They bring to marriage the vital principles. of equal partnership. If there's a secret to making marriage work, it is never go to bed mad. Our 30 years have been blessed with good health, good fortune, good friends, good times, and success. Jules says he could not have made it without me. I'm not sure he's right, but I could not have made it without him, and of this I am certain. He taught me how to be alone without feeling sorry for myself. He taught me never to back away from a challenge, that it is better to try and fail and then to try again.

He taught me how to use my time productively. His work habits are impeccable. I learned mine from him. Being Mrs. Jules' letterer has been superb training for Anne Landers. Thirty years with this unselfish, supportive, responsive man has enabled me to live life as few people get the opportunity to live. Being Anne Lander's husband could pose a terrible problem, but Jules has met the challenge with dignity and incredible good humor. My husband is my best friend, and I am his. I consider it a privilege to be the wife of this beautiful guy who took on the world with a ninth grade education and a hole in his sock. What a loving tribute to your husband. Yeah.

Very sweet. And then he is being an absolute tool. And in next week's episode, Anne Landers gets divorced. Oof. Well, I bet that was extremely embarrassing for her. You know, obviously we'll have a lot to say about it in next week's episode. I think what really got me is she then had to turn around and tell her readers. Yeah.

I shouldn't say had to. She chose to. Chose to. Yep. And a lot of people told her she shouldn't do that, but she did it anyway. Yeah. Because she wanted it to come from her. It was going to get out regardless.

Sure. Ugh. You know, I read an article recently that said the whole don't go to bed mad. That is like old school advice and sometimes not the best way to handle conflicts. It's so funny you say that because I actually agree. I read that and thought, I think sometimes you do need to cool down. Right. And if that means that you go to bed, hopefully you wake up with maybe a new perspective or you've just calmed down enough that you can talk directly.

Right. That's the big thing is you've just calmed down. Yeah. Maybe going to bed mad isn't such a bad thing. So if you find your husband doing inappropriate things to bagel bites, it's okay to go to bed mad. And it's okay for him to go to bed covered in marinera sauce. Just talk about it the next morning. That's our advice.

When you say I'm doing inappropriate things to bagel bites, my assumption is I made up a plate of bagel bites and I ate the majority of them and didn't leave you any. I don't think you're saying that I'm fucking the bagel bites or anything, right? I don't know. I don't know. This feels a little like last week's episode where you kept fixating on the tie. And you're like, okay, I see. I see. I made 10 bagel bites.

I ate seven. I get it. I'm wrong. That's not what I'm saying, Norm. What are you saying? The listeners know what I'm saying. And they're saying, you know what? It's time to wrap this up. No, you have to explain it. Well, folks, you know what they say about history, hoes? We always cite our sources. That's right. For this episode, I got my information from articles in Life magazine, Ladies Home Journal, CNN, the Washington Post, the New York Times, and the book,

Dear Anne, Dear Abby, the unauthorized biography of Anne Landers and Abigail Van Buren by Jan Potker and Bob Special. And the book, The Best of Anne Landers by Anne Landers. And not to be outdone. The Best of Dear Abby by Abigail Van Buren. Plus more, check the show notes for a full list of our sources. That's all for this episode. Thank you for listening to an old-timey podcast.

Please give us a five-star review wherever you listen to podcasts. And while you're at it, subscribe. support us on Patreon at patreon.com slash old-timey podcast. Join the Reddit community, R-slash-old-timey podcast. Follow us on Facebook and YouTube and Instagram at Old Timey Podcast. You can also follow us individually on Instagram. I'm at Kristen Pitts-Karuso, and he's at Gaming Historian. And until next time, Tudaloo, Tata, and Cheerio.

Bye. Bye. See ya.