An Old Timey Podcast - 78: Grandma Gatewood Takes One Hell of a Walk (Part 1)

Episode Date: October 29, 2025

When Emma Gatewood set off on the Appalachian Trail, she didn’t look like much of a hiker. She was 67 years old. She wore a pair of Keds. She had no training. But she figured that wouldn’t matter. An article in National Geographic magazine claimed that anyone in “normal good health” could hike the 2,169-mile trail. The article was misleading, but Emma persevered. In 1955, “Grandma Gatewood” became the first woman to complete a solo hike of the Appalachian Trail. In this episode, we learn what Emma overcame, including domestic violence and sexual abuse, before she set foot on the trail. Remember, kids, history hoes always cite their sources! For this episode, Norm pulled from: Brown, Andrew. “Skyline Trail from Maine to Georgia.” National Geographic, August 1949.Huston, Peter, dir. Trail Magic: The Grandma Gatewood Story. 2015. https://vimeo.com/ondemand/237744.Montgomery, Ben. Grandma Gatewood’s Walk: The Inspiring Story of the Woman Who Saved the Appalachian Trail. Chicago Review Press, 2016.New York Times. “Overlooked No More: Emma Gatewood, First Woman to Conquer the Appalachian Trail Alone.” October 7, 2021. https://archive.is/kp2au.Are you enjoying An Old Timey Podcast? Then please leave us a 5-star rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts!Are you *really* enjoying An Old Timey Podcast? Well, calm down, history ho! You can get more of us on Patreon at patreon.com/oldtimeypodcast. At the $5 level, you’ll get a monthly bonus episode (with video!), access to our 90’s style chat room, plus the entire back catalog of bonus episodes from Kristin’s previous podcast, Let’s Go To Court.

Hear ye, hear ye. You are listening to an old-timey podcast. I'm Norman Caruso. And I'm Kristen Caruso. And in this series, I'll be talking about Grandma Gatewood. Who the hell is that? She sounds lovely. I'll give you a clue. Uh-huh. She's a grandma. And her last name's Gatewood. That is not a clue about anything. Does she have Wothers in her sweater pocket, along with a couple crumpled, used Kleenexes? My research says that's unclear. But she's an incredible woman with an incredible story, and I'm going to tell you all about it, Kristen. Now, Norm, I can tell you are just very excited,

maybe too excited to tell us about this weird old lady. I'm sorry, is she a hero, and I'm being rude? She was an incredible woman. Okay, my apologies to the incredible woman, but I've got something to say. Oh, yeah? Yeah, this is, Norm, don't, listen, the ADHD meds have come together.

in a beautiful way. And I had a realization, an epiphany today. I was like, oh, m.g, the timing is incredible when this episode drops. Yeah. On Wednesday, October, what's it going to be? 29. 29th, I knew it. Let me tell you folks, you're listening on that very day, and you are not a member of our Patreon. Oh, ho, ho, ho, do you have work to do? Get on over to patreon.com slash old-timey podcast, because on that very day at 7 p.m. Central Standard Time, we are having trivia. That's right. Trivia. Technically, we're in daylight time, so it would be central daylight time. CDT. Oh, my God. Okay. We know about time zones. We learned it from you, Dad. That's right. Anyway, so here's the deal. Our trivia is very fun. It is cutthroat, okay? And it's cutthroat for a reason, because there's so much on the line.

What's the top prize? Is it a million dollars? No. Who gives a shit about that? Is it a brand new car. No, it's stickers. The thing we want most in the world, stickers and bragging rights. It's a good time. Join us over there. And you don't just get trivia. You also, oh, shoot, everyone gets stickers when they sign up. That makes it sound even less. Well, don't worry, you're going to want more stickers, so you're going to want to win trivia. Also, bonus episodes, and I've got something to say about bonus. Norm, quit looking at the camera like I'm embarrassing everyone. Some people have not decided that I'm weird yet. They're still on the fence. Folks, I just want to say that Kristen finally got her refill on her ADHD medicine and it shows.

Yeah, by that he means, I've gotten the refill, but it was too late in the day to take it. So tomorrow, I'm going to be great. She's really excited. Yeah, I am very excited. But here's a deal, folks. If you've been listening closely, and we know you have, you know that I just wrapped up a series on Ann Landers and Dear Abby. And for this month's bonus episode, we're going to be reading the good, bad, and the ugly of their columns. Yeah. But we also opened up to the history hose and said, hey, if you've got a conundrum, send it our way, we might read it in that bonus episode. Well, boy, was I blown away by all the problems you history hoes have. So I felt a little bad because I was like, all these hoes in desperate need to help. What are we going to do? I decided that Norm at the

end of this very episode right here about, you know, whoever grandma this is, we're going to read and respond to a small sampling. Oh, a little teaser, huh? Yeah, a little teaser, a little amused booch. Trying to get people in the door to that Patreon. I see what you're doing. Business cat all the way. Patreon.com slash old-timey podcast.

Join us. Very good, Kristen. Thank you. Okay, Kristen. Are you ready to learn about Grandma Gatewood? Yeah, I'm really prepared for anything. First, I'd like to begin with a couple of shoutouts. First of all, I have to thank Reddit user Free Range Hula hoop.

For the topic suggestion, I really appreciate it. I'd like to remind the history hose that we have a topic suggestion megathread over on our slash old-timey podcast. And I do actively read that megathread for ideas, so please feel free to leave your own suggestions for topics. I only read it passively. So keep that in mind. How does that work? I was just making a joke about you saying you actively read it. I'm just being a turd.

Don't worry about me. You have to be active when reading, right? You can't passively read. Okay, fine. Anyway, go ahead. I guess if you're watching TV at the same time, is that passively reading? And I often am, yes. It's funny, I always thought I was good at multitasking.

Uh-huh. And I have since learned if I do one thing at a time, I do stuff way better. Yes, yes. Even listening to music while I do something, my quality goes way down. Yeah, because when you start listening to Wood by Taylor Swift, it's like you can't focus on anything else. I know.

I got to analyze the lyrics. I got to understand what she means by Wood. Still working on it. Key to thighs. What? Does she have a padlock around her waist? What does that mean? She's into carpentry, clearly.

Mm-hmm. Okay. So second of all, I need to say that most of the information I'm presenting to you in the series comes from the book entitled, Grandma Gatewood's Walk by Ben Montgomery. Okay, that title gives us nothing, which is the same amount of stuff you have given us so far in this episode. We know she goes on a walk. Well, what grandma doesn't?

This is the definitive look at Emma Gatewood's incredible life. Please give it a read if you want to learn more about this story. And finally, a warning, this first episode isn't exactly pleasant. Okay. But it is necessary to understand Emma's journey. Context people. Okay, so this is basically take your medicine. Yes.

Okay, we'll take our medicine, I guess. Did you have trouble taking medicine as a kid? Of course I had trouble with it as an adult. You know, I'm just a big baby who grew very tall. I'm married to a giant baby. Well, that makes you a sicko, so. I remember my brother really struggled swallowing pills. Uh-huh.

And I remember I was like reading a comic book in my room and I just hear from the other room. No! And my mom go, Ryan, swallow the pill! And now I was like, whoo, rough times in this household. Anyway, picture it. It's May of 1955, in the quiet little mountain town of Jasper, Georgia, about 50 miles north of Atlanta. Fun fact, the town's slogan is, the first mountain city.

What? It narrowly beat out the runner-up, one of the few Georgia towns with no reported lynchings. Oh. Oh. That was a joke. What? That was a joke, Kristen.

Wait, but it's the first mountain city? The town slogan is the first mountain city. Uh-huh. But what do lynchings have to do with the mountains? Well, lynchings have to do with Georgia in how it was very prevalent in Georgia. Okay. But I did the research, and there are no reported lynchings in Jasper, Georgia. Oh, gosh.

Well, okay. So, you know, I guess round of applause for that. All right. No, reported. Yeah, no, we heard you. Mm-hmm. Oof. Well, you're really, you know what?

I got to say, though, you were like, just so you know, this episode, you know, it's going to be a little rough. You just threw that roughness right in there unnecessarily. Hmm. I thought it was a clever joke. Okay. Very good. So, we're in Jasper, Georgia, the first Mountain City. A cab driver pulled up at the curb and picked up his next customer.

an old woman carrying a large cardboard box. She hopped in the back seat, and the driver asked, where to? The woman replied, the summit of Mount Oglethorpe, please. The driver thought, ugh, you want to go to the top of Mount Oglethorpe? That's the highest point in the county. The southernmost peak of the Blue Ridge Mountains. It has more than 3,000 feet of elevation. I don't know if my crappy little car can even make it up that far.

This is not worth the money. Yeah, that does seem like the kind of thing that you can't just get in any taxi and ask them to take you there. Yep, but hey, he did it. Okay. The driver grumbled as they took off for the summit. Their ears began to pop as the car slowly made its way up a gravel road, dust kicking up around them. The old woman sat quietly in the back, enjoying the beautiful views of the Blue Ridge Mountains that winded north. Despite his grumpiness, the cab driver made small talk.

He asked, So, what you're going to do at? Mount Oglethorpe. The old woman replied, I'm going to hike the Appalachian Trail. Wait, and all she had was like a box? She had a cardboard box. Wow. Uh, excuse me, did I hear that right? Oh, sorry, maybe my ears popped a little too much. Okay. Did you just say you were going to hike the Appalachian Trail, the longest continuous footpath in the world that runs 2,000 miles and stretches from Georgia to Maine?

That's a direct quote from the cab driver, by the way. He was very knowledgeable. He was. By the way, this sounds so cool. The Appalachian Trail? By the way, am I a dumbass? I've been saying Appalachian. Okay, it's a regional thing.

Oh. A Southern Boas. Yes. Appalachian. Okay. Northerners, Appalachian. All right, all right. Both are correct, in my opinion.

It just depends on where you come from. Would you ever do this? The Appalachian Trail? Yeah. Oh, it's tough, but absolutely. I think I would be really pumped and I'd do it for like a couple days. And then I'd be like, well, bye. I think I'm going to go home now.

Yeah. So yeah, this cab driver thought, is this lady for real? She's going to hike the Appalachian Trail. It was true. She was serious. She wanted to hike the Appalachian Trail. Not only that, but no one knew she was attempting to hike the Appalachian Trail. She had only told her family she was, quote, going on a walk.

Oh. In fact, the only two people who knew she was there were her cousin, who she stayed with the previous night in Atlanta, and that cab driver. Oh, my God! Eventually, the little cab car that could hit a very steep incline, about a quarter of a mile from the top of Mount Oglethorpe. and that was enough. The driver killed the engine. They couldn't go any further. And, you know, that was close enough for the little old lady.

She gathered her cardboard box. She paid the $5 fare. And then she threw in an extra dollar for the driver's troubles. Because he was a very grumpy man. That cheered him up a bit, and with that, he drove off. See ya. And there she stood in her Ked's canvas shoes. No.

Alone, near the top of Mount Oglethorpe, holding a cardboard box, standing five feet two inches tall, weighing 150 pounds, 67-year-old Emma Gatewood. Whoa. She certainly didn't look like a hiker, but just four and a half months later, she would climb Mount Katadin in Maine

to become the very first woman to complete a solo through hike of the Appalachian Trail. Wow. And only the sixth person, man or woman, to do it. Wow. Kristen, history hose, I cannot stress enough how incredible of an accomplishment it is to solo hike the Appalachian Trail, even if you are a young and sexy person like myself. Oh.

But for a 67-year-old woman to do it, back in 1955, when the trail was in pretty rough shape, that's an even greater accomplishment. I hadn't even thought about that. The condition of the trail means so much. It can be so confusing when you're on a trail that is not super well defined. Well, not only that, it wasn't very popular at that time. Right. Today it's extremely popular. And Emma Gatewood had a lot to do with that. But yeah, when she first hiked it, not a lot of people were taking the trail. Okay, I'm sorry to throw shade this early, but had she never heard of a backpack? I mean, that sounds nuts to be to carry a cardboard box the whole way. Well, you'll find out in part two what's in the box and how she hikes the trail. Okay.

So calm down. Is there a backpack in the box and she throws away the box? There's a sack. Okay. Kind of like a backpack. Okay. Slings it over her shoulder. All right.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Okay. So yeah, for a 67-year-old woman to hike the Appalachian Trail, that's quite an accomplishment. and then when you learn about Emma Gatewood's life, what she had to endure to get to that point, you will be gobsmacked. And by the end of this series,

after learning about Emma Gatewood's journey, you might feel like an absolute sack of shit, like I did. You might be questioning, what am I doing with my life? I need to get moving. But I hope you'll also feel inspired to finally accomplish that long put-off goal

to try out that new hobby, or to finally make that phone call to schedule an oil change for your car. So in this series, let's dive into the life of Emma Gatewood, or as she came to be known, Grandma Gatewood, and her incredible journey hiking the Appalachian Trail. But first, we have to learn about Emma's very, very difficult early life. You ready, Kristen? I'm ready. Well, in order to do that, we have to go back in time. Oh, where are we? It's the 1880s. The Gilded Age.

Oh, God. I wish I lived in the Gilded Age, hanging out on the Broadway stage. It was a time of great economic growth and inequality. Rapid industrialization, political corruption, and violence. I love the energy with which you say inequality and violence. You got to sell it, baby. You got to sell it, baby. You gotta sell it. In 1881, President James Garfield was assassinated by a disgruntled lawyer who believed he was owed a government position.

Future topic? Yes. In 1882, outlawed Jesse James was shot in the back of the head by the coward Robert Ford as he dusted a picture on his wall. Future topic? Sorry. Something happened to your button. The button's a little stuck here. All right.

This is a lot of violence. Let's look for something a little more uplifting. Kristen. Okay. Hang on. Hang on. Oh, boy. Let me get my history book out here.

Ew. I'm flipping through the pages. I know. And you're imitating the type of person who licks their finger when they turn a page. Oh, boy, lots of violence. I don't think I'm going to find. Oh, wait, here we go. Here we go.

In 1886, the Statue of Liberty was officially dedicated on Bedloe Island in New York City. It was a gift from our friends over in France. Inside the statue is a plaque that reads, give me you're tired. You're poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free. Expires January 2025. Oh. Yeah, a lot of people don't know that plaque sort of worked like a coupon.

Uh-huh. And, you know, it's expired now, so sorry. Well, yeah, I mean, the warning was right there. Boy, we do get political, don't we? Oh, spicy. Spicy. If this is too much for you, turn off this podcast. Of course, these were all major events in the 1880s.

but everyday folks were living their everyday lives. People like the Caldwell family of Galea County, Ohio. And on October 25, 1887, an event did affect the Caldwell family. In what was described as a puny house on a farm, the matriarch Evelyn Caldwell gave birth to a daughter, Emma. It was a special day. Well, maybe the specialness had worn off by then because Emma was the 12th child of the family,

which would eventually grow to 15 children total. Dear God. Ten girls, five boys. The patriarch and the man with the magic seed was Hugh Caldwell, a Civil War veteran who fought for the Union, baby. Love to see it. We salute you, sir. Thank you for your service to the Union.

Hugh Caldwell was sort of a local celebrity. His claim to fame during the war was peeking his head above a stone wall during battle to see where those rebels were. Uh-huh. But he also lost a leg during the war. Oh, I thought you were going to say he, like, lost a hat or something. And that was... You would think, right? Yeah.

No, he just peeked over a wall and was like, there they are, and then peeked back down. Yeah. Which, you've got to be brave to do that, I think. Yes. But, yeah, he lost a leg during the war. And Kristen, when you're a farmer, it really helps to have both legs intact. It also didn't help that because of his injury, Hugh Caldwell turned to drinking and gambling, which routinely put his family in really bad situations.

Needless to say, the Caldwells were very poor, and everyone in the family was expected to help out on the farm. So Emma Caldwell had your stereotypical upbringing for a rural child on a poor farm. She learned how to cultivate crops like corn, beans, tobacco, sugar, wheat. She took care of livestock. She cooked, she cleaned. School was more like a hobby. The kids attended when there wasn't anything to do on the farm. Which I'm guessing didn't happen very often. Right.

Church was extremely important to the Caldwells. They always went to church no matter what. So far, no surprises. This is typical farming life in the late 1800s, right? Yeah. But like I said, Hugh Caldwell put his family in tough situations. As a result, they moved several times around Galea County. At one point, Hugh decided he was going to build a brand new house for his family.

And he started out pretty strong. He set the stone foundation. It was ready to be built. And then nothing. What do you mean? Never finished the house. Like didn't have the money? Didn't...

Well, as drinking and gambling were causing some problems, basically. Okay. So while this house was being built, the Caldwells had to live in a tiny log cabin. And there wasn't enough room inside the cabin for everybody. So the Caldwells set up a bedroom on the front porch. Oh, God. And there were four children in each bed. Wait, where are they again?

Ohio, you said? Mm-hmm. You can't do that. Well, just wait. So Emma later recalled that in the wintertime. Yeah, the winter. Yeah. would fall on them while they slept, and they would have to wake up and shake the covers really

quickly before the snow melted. This is terrible. Yeah. There's no bathroom, not even an outhouse. People just peed right off the front porch. I'm still researching what they did with the poop. I'll get back to you on that. What are you doing to research this, Norm?

I have my sources. One time the family was heating water to wash clothes, and the spark jumped out in a hit Emma, which lit her on fire. Oh. She was okay, but she had a scar for the rest of her life. So, yeah, things were pretty tough for Emma growing up. But Emma made the best of it. You know, in her few moments of escape, she really loved exploring the woods.

There was plenty of it in Gawley County. Emma liked to look for wildflowers. She liked to explore caves. She climbed rocky cliffs. She went swimming in the creek on hot summer days. she learned what wild plants you could eat and which ones would give you the pea but poos. She gained a lot of knowledge.

And it came in handy. For example, one time her and her siblings took a jug and they set it up right by a bees nest and then they smack the bees' nest. And all the bees were like, and they swarmed out right into the jug. Oh, okay. And so while all the bees are in the jug being like,

what the hell, where are we? They stuck their hands into the bees' nest and they just got honey. Just collected honey. Pretty cool, huh? Yeah. But sadly, Emma grew up very fast. When she was 17, her father fell and he broke his only good leg. Oh.

He was in the hospital for two months. And as the oldest remaining child in the house, a lot of responsibilities fell on Emma. She stopped going to school. Her highest education level was the eighth grade. She took control of the house, though. She did all the farm work, she cooked, she cleaned, she took care of her family. When she turned 18 years old, Emma was ready to leave that life behind. In 1906, she found a job working as a housemaid across the Ohio River in Huntington, West Virginia.

But Emma really hated that work, and so she came back home. But luckily, her cousin presented her with a new job opportunity. She asked her to take care of their sick grandmother, and Emma took that job. And she did all the things. She, you know, milked cows. She washed the iron. She cooked. And, you know, she was once again taking care of other people. But, you know, at least she was getting paid this time. Right. And she made 75 cents a week. Adjusted for inflation, $35 a week. Oh, God. Yeah. I guess at least she's only taking care of one person. Right.

But it really doesn't even sound as simple as taking care of one person because it sounds like taking care of that person and also running that person. farm. Exactly. She kind of ran the household, basically, because grandma was, I'm assuming, bedridden at that point. So yeah, Emma kind of settled into this routine. You know, during the week, she cared for her cousin's grandmother. In her off time, she would go on walk. Her cousin's grandmother or her grandmother? Yeah, that's what the research said, her cousin's grandmother, so I don't know. Okay. Yeah, it could be, sure. Who knows? Gotcha. In her off time, she liked to go on walks in the woods or read books. And then on Sundays, She went to church.

It's kind of an all-day thing. But one evening, Kristen, her routine changed. On a chilly Sunday night, as Emma walked home from church services, a man on a horse pulled up beside her and asked if she wanted a ride home. That man's name? Perry Clayton Gatewood.

But most folks called him PC. Emma and PC were not stranger, Her cousin had actually introduced them recently. PC was eight years older than Emma. He was 26, she was 18. And he took an interest in her. Kristen, age gap. What do you think?

For this time period, I am not so worried about the number. And also I'm like, this lady has a very hard life. If this guy can provide something better, which I'm thinking, how could it be worse? Go for it, baby. We've got the approval from Kristen. Very good. And you know, PC was no average Joe.

He was considered, quote, the catch of Gallia County, Ohio. Why? What was so great about it? Well, let me tell you, he had short brown hair. Oh, my God, no one's ever had that. Oh, shit. Calm down over there. Okay.

A dark complexion. Uh-huh. Yeah. Slender build. Oh. Handsome. Okay. Everyone around the area thought very highly of PC.

For several reasons, Kristen. Number one, he was educated. He had graduated from the Ohio Northern University. PC received a teaching degree and he taught kids how to read and write at a local one-room schoolhouse. Number two, PC was a very religious man. He not only attended church, but sometimes he would stand up and deliver his own sermons right in front of the people. Preacher. Sounds like someone's struggling for power.

Wow. Wow. That seems rude. It also turns me on. Oh, okay. Number three, PC was a teetotaler. Oh, yeah. Allegedly, he didn't smoke.

He didn't drink. He was, as we like to say on this podcast, raw dogging life. You said allegedly. Allegedly. He's clearly going to the outhouse and drinking. Yeah. Okay. Number four, he came from quite the family.

His parents owned a furniture factory in Gallupilis, Ohio, which really excites the hell out of me, personally. Okay, yeah, I mean, that's a big deal. Mm-hmm. And number five, PC was quite the equestrian. He loved riding horses. So this dude's rich? I don't know, I don't know about rich, but for the area, I guess.

Okay, yeah, I guess I'm thinking everyone these days, if you're into horses, you've got to have some money. But probably back in the day, that was just a normal thing. If you're a farmer, I feel like it's a normal thing that a horse. Okay. Okay. He loved riding horses, Kristen. His favorite horse was named Dick, and PC was always riding dick around Gallia County. Norm.

On any given day, folks would see them out and about and comment, well, there goes PC. They did not see this. Riding Dick again. Uh-huh. Boy, I tell you what, I sure wish I could ride down. Dick like him. Okay. PC even liked to do tricks on a source.

Sometimes he would ride Dick backwards to a cheering crowd. He called that trick the reverse cowboy. I did not want to laugh at anything you were going to say. And you know, when a local reporter asked him, how long he'd been riding Dick? PC replied, oh, about the past 10 years. You could say I've gotten pretty good at riding dick. How long does this go? Oh, damn it.

What? I was about to say, how long does this go on? But then I realized I'm just making another riding dick joke by asking that. All right, I'll get back to our story. Was his horse even really named Dick? Yes, the horse was named Dick. Okay. And he liked to ride Dick.

Okay. Everything I just told you is based on facts. I really, how funny. You were like, no. The horse is named. wasn't Dick. It was big throbbing cock. Well, then it still works.

PC was always riding big throbbing cock. Okay, I may have made up his little tricks, the reverse cowboy. I made up a reporter interviewing him. But he did have a horse named Dick and he did like to ride Dick. Okay. Okay. Yes. So on a chilly Sunday evening, PC pulled up next to Emma and offered her a ride home.

It was pretty damn cold that evening, and Emma had never ridden Dick before. Stop it. She'd never ridden a horse before, okay? Okay. It looked fun. So she replied, yes. Of course, on that first ride, Emma made sure she was a proper lady. She did not put her arms around PC's waist, like some sort of whoer.

Everyone, we're rewatching the Sopranos, so we're calling people whewer. Now. PC and Emma's little courtship carried on throughout the winter of 1906. And then in the spring of 1907, PC surprised her by asking. Yeah. Emma's response? Hell yeah. Why?

What? Because to her, she felt like they were still kind of getting to know each other. You know, why rush into marriage? Hold on. How long have they been seeing each other? Well, just through the winter. So, like, I'm going to say, like, November, December, 1906, and then spring of 1907. So, okay.

Four to five months, ish. Yeah, I don't know. I guess I think of back in old timing times people did these things a lot faster. Yeah, I agree. But yeah, Emma was like, well, you know, we don't need to rush this, you know. I need more time. Mm-hmm. And PC was like, all right, no problem.

I will wait until you're ready. Yeah, that was all bullshit because literally two months. Once later, he asked her again. Only this time he issued an ultimatum, which, as we all know, is a really good sign that your relationship is strong and it's going to work out. Do you remember that show Ultimatum on Netflix? Yes. Boy. That was one of the few reality shows that you actually watched with me.

I watched a season with you and I was just like, I can't believe I wasted my time watching this. So what was the ultimatum? He said, Emma, if you're not going to marry me, I'm leaving. I'm heading out west, riding dick the whole way. See, okay, you made that joke, but is that really so bad to just say to somebody, hey, I'm ready to get married. I want to get married to you. I understand if you don't want to get married to me, but I just want to know,

so I don't waste my time. I don't know. It felt kind of threatening. Okay. Yeah, he said, you'll never see me again unless you marry me. Okay, yeah, that is kind of weird. So Emma thought about it. She really wasn't ready to get married.

Oh, no. But, you know, her and PC had a lot in common. You know, they were both very religious. They were both teetotolers. Emma didn't even drink coffee. Oh, my God, Emma. It's a sin. No, that's because she was making 75 cents a week.

She couldn't afford coffee. I can't afford coffee. They were both die-hard Republicans. Uh-huh. Which is very different back in 1906. Let's be clear. Yeah. The party has changed quite a bit.

Let's not judge. Okay. Let's not be too hasty and not judgment. Uh-huh. And, you know, they got along pretty well. You know, maybe it would all work out. So Emma begrudgingly said, yeah, let's get married. This doesn't make any sense to me.

You know, maybe it was a convenience thing. You know, Emma had always been taking care of other people. You know, maybe when she gets married, now someone could be taken care of her. But that's not the way this is going to go. Perhaps it was a confidence thing. Maybe Emma thought, well, he's the best I can do, and I might not get this chance again. I feel like that's what she's thinking. We don't know for sure.

I'm just throwing these things out there. In any case, on May 5, 1907, PC Gatewood and Emma Caldwell exchanged vows and became Mr. and Mrs. Gatewood. They celebrated with a large dinner with friends and family, and then it was time for the big night, Kristen, consummate the marriage. Was it in a fancy hotel in the city? Or maybe a remote cabin in the woods? Nope. It was at Emma's mom's house in a room made out of bed sheets.

Oh, no. Sexy times. Oh, my God, so the whole family's there and, oh, no, disgusting. Quiet, silent sex. I hope. I imagine if they're just wailing. Well, dear guys, stop. Oh, gross.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, I read that. It's like, whoo, tough times back then. No kidding. After the wedding, the gatewoods moved to the small town of Gallupolice, Ohio. Gallupilis is a cute little river town, one of the oldest in Ohio. At the time, it had all the small town necessities, Kristen. And then some.

It had a newspaper, a hospital, a library. and get this, electric streetcars. Wow, okay. I know. P.C.'s family lived there. Emma's family wasn't far away. And they lived in a small cabin just south of town, on a hillside near the creek, surrounded by nature.

It seemed like the right place to start a life together. But the honeymoon phase ended very quickly. You know, Emma believed getting married would give her a partner in life. But P.C. Gatewood did not feel the same way. He saw Emma as a possession. While he continued to teach at school, Emma basically did everything else on the homestead. She built fences.

She farmed tobacco. She mixed up cement. She cooked. She cleaned. It was once again really hard living. Yeah. And then came the violence. Just three months into their marriage, PC hit her.

He drew blood. And he would not stop for the next. 35 years. Oh. And then there was rape. PC demanded sex several times a day. Oh, God. Regardless of how Emma felt about it.

Soon Emma learned she was pregnant. She may have hoped that while carrying a child, PC would leave her alone. But he didn't. One night, he smacked her especially hard. And for the first time, Emma thought about leaving him, to raise their child alone. Yeah. But, you know, where could she go?

Emma didn't make any money. She had an eighth grade education. The thought of going back to her family was not very appealing. There is a stigma of being a divorced woman. And if that's not bad enough, a divorced woman with a child, a newborn. And as we have learned on this podcast, divorced women are really suspicious. That's true. the other thing I'm thinking about is a man raping a woman who is also his wife,

that didn't become illegal until the 90s in a lot of states. Wow. They did not know that. I mean, I'd have to look back into it. But yeah, for a long, long time in history, that was just considered something that you could do. Because she's your wife. She's your possession. Yeah, that's horrible. And so this thing that's happening to her, it would be the kind of thing that people might not even feel sorry for you or, you know, sympathize at all.

Right, or just be like, well, that's just part of being married. That's part of being married. Yep, if he wants sex, you got to have sex with them. Your God. Yeah. So ultimately, Emma decided to stay in the marriage. In an October of 1908, she gave birth to their first child, a daughter named Helen. PC was not happy about it because he wanted a boy. He wanted someone to carry on his legacy.

Hmm, quite a legacy. So the following year in 1909, they had another child, and it was daughter number two, Ruth. So then they had another child. Two years later, in June of 1911, PC finally got his wish. It was a boy named Ernest. The Gatewood's tiny cabin was getting pretty cramped with three kids, and plenty more children were coming, so they moved. P.C.'s uncle sold the gatewoods an 80-acre farm nearby.

With more farmland came more responsibilities. P.C. quit his job as a teacher to work the farm full-time, and Emma worked on the farm full-time as well, while also raising their children. She was hauling rocks around. She herded cows. She planted crops. She built fences. But, you know, Emma Gatewood was very resourceful.

You know, like I mentioned, she was a diehard Republican. She believed people could accomplish anything with enough hard work and determination. Pull yourself up by the bootstraps kind of mentality. And the Gatewoods did not have a lot of money. And so Emma was always looking for home remedies to solve problems around the house. You know, how to strip paint, how to get rid of bugs, how to make your own wine, things like that. to make your own wine? How to make your own wine.

I thought they were teetotolers. That's a good point. Hmm. Contradictory research. I wonder if they considered wine to not be alcohol, you know? Like, eh, there's an exception for this. Well, and I wonder if you just don't ferment it long enough. It's non-alcoholic wine, right? She's like grape juice.

Anyway, the point I'm making is she had a lot of these like home remedy books of like, hey, here's how to do all these things around your house for, you know, It was just stuff laying around. Yeah. Needless to say, she had an extremely hectic, rugged life. It wore her down tremendously. The entire family worked the farm to make ends meet. The kids picked weeds and pulled vegetables.

They sold meat and produce at the market in Gallup Police. And anything left over, they canned up and they sold it to folks along the side of the highway. They had to make money however they could because they never had enough money. No thanks to PC, who regularly took off on the weekends to quote, fulfill his desires. And that's why I say he was allegedly a teetotaler. Yeah. That's got to be a real mixed bag for Emma.

Because on the one hand, you hate that he's going off and spending what little money the family has. But on the other hand, my God, get this guy away from me. Absolutely. In the rare moments Emma could get time for herself, she went to her favorite place. The Woods. She later wrote, quote, The stillness and quiet of the forests has always seemed so wonderful,

and I like the peacefulness. Sometimes she would go there by herself with a good book. Emma was a voracious reader. She read everything from the Odyssey to a freaking encyclopedia. Emma also enjoyed writing poetry. Sometimes she would submit poems

to the local newspaper. And Kristen, I know you are a huge fan of poetry. You're always reading poetry. I'm not. I'm saying, Kristen, put down that poetry book and come eat dinner with me. Would you like to hear one of Emma's poems? Yeah. Okay.

A home is made of many things, books and papers and little strings. A comb and brush to fix one's hair, a mending basket, an easy chair. A clock, some music, the sacred book, a kitchen stove and food to cook. The sound of little feet about, up the stairs, and in and the door. out. Little trinkets on the floor. Trains in cars and dolls galore. Children's clothes and children's beds. A kitty cat that must be fed. A dog to warn us with his bark. When someone bothers when it's dark. A mother that is kind and good and patient with her little brood. Hmm. Good and brood don't rhyme, do they? No. But they, you know. They look like they rhyme on paper. Yes. A great big place must

Father Phil, besides the pain of the bills. A spirit there that brings together in every trial and kind of weather. There must be kindness every day if it's a home with Shining Ray. Well, Kristen, what do you think? I mean, what you have there is the live, laugh, love of poetry. You know, I mean, no, that sounds like a nice escape for her. Yeah. To write some poetry.

Mm-hmm. How dare you put me in the position of critiquing that poem. And I just, I know how much you love poetry. I figured I need to talk to an expert, which would be Kristen Caruso. It is interesting to me. Like, I do wonder what that poetry did for her. Clearly something that's for publication. You know, you got to do the tradwife thing.

You got to put a smile on and you've got to look at your situation through the sunniest light. Yeah. I wonder if she had more real poetry. I'm sure she did. This was one that was published, I believe, in the local newspaper. Yeah. You know, oftentimes Emma would take her kids into the woods as well. She taught them all sorts of things about nature, you know, what plants and wild berries they could eat.

Emma told her kids that, quote, birds and animals don't go hungry, so why should people? And there was plenty to gather in the woods by their home. Walnuts, maple syrup, crab apples, plums, huckleberries, dandelions, wild lettuce, clovers, milkweed. Oftentimes, Emma and the kids would make sandwiches and they'd have little picnics. and they'd go swimming in the creek. You know, for her children, these were wonderful memories. Yeah.

Of course, there was another reason Emma went to the woods. It was to escape the wrath of PC because he kept attacking her. One time PC beat Emma so hard she couldn't even rest her head on a pillow. Another time he choked her until she was blue in the face. Emma later wrote.

recalled, quote, multiple times I was black and blue in a lot of places, but mostly my face. I did not carry one single child that I did not get a slapping or beating during that time, and several times he put me outside and told me to go. It was one grand nightmare to live with him in his maniacal temper. He would act so innocent and pretend he had not touched me and say, I was not in my right mind, and they would have to do something. thing with me. He even asked me what asylum I wanted to go to. And I told him, Athens or the Ohio Hospital for Epileptics or any place would be better than home. This is terrifying. This was also

back at a time when, yeah, if a guy got tired of his wife, just call her crazy. It should be locked up. And he certainly did. Neighbors often noticed Emma hiding in the woods. And PC told her Oh, she's crazy. I'm thinking of putting her in an asylum. Was she tempted to murder him? Surely, right? I, I just, boy, be a shame if something happened to Earl here. Mm-hmm.

Earl had to die. Bye, ba-da-da-ba-bye Earl. Yeah. Black-eyed peas. It tasted all right to me. The chicks. My sister listened to the chicks all the time. Uh, me too, but seriously.

Obviously, that's not how this story goes, but boy, if I could get into a time machine, I might whisper that idea into her ear and then run off because I'm also a wimp who hates violence. And yet, violence is my one idea. Listen, I don't want to see what you're going to do, but here's what you should do. You know what? Here's what I'm also thinking. I'm like, wow, if I had a time machine, I could go back and, like, give her a car and, like, help her get away. But instead I'm like, hey, how about you just murder this guy? Yeah.

Sometimes at night, Emma would sneak into her children's beds to sleep with them. You know, at the time, the kids probably didn't think much of that. But later on, as they got older, they learned why. It was the one place where PC would not put his hands on her. Meanwhile, Emma continued to get pregnant and have children. In January of 1914, another boy, William. In 1916, another girl, Rowena. In 1917, another girl, Esther.

In 1920, she had twins, Robert and Elizabeth. Holy. And, you know, sure enough, they had outgrown the house on their 80-acre farm. And so the Gatewoods moved again. They bought an even bigger farm with a bigger house for their growing family. And they had to go further into debt to do that. Life was not going to get any easier for Emma Gatewood. In 1924, PC's temper got the best of him.

Oh my God. Oh my God. I know what happened. What happened? He raised his fist to the wrong man. Am I right? He's at a bar. No, he's gambling. And the gambling, it didn't go his way. He starts mouthing off. He punches some dude with a big thick neck. And that guy is like, uh-uh, bitch. And then Earl had to die, right? You are close, but they were actually playing Monopoly.

Shut up. No, you're actually completely wrong. PC got into an argument with a neighbor named Hiram Johnson. It's unclear what they were fighting about, but each man stormed off, grabbed their gun, and aimed it at each other. PC got off the first shot, and he struck Hiram Johnson in the forehead. Oh. knocking him unconscious What?

Yeah, but he died four days later in the hospital. Okay, well, Norm. Sorry. What? That's the order of events, Kristen. I know, but knocking him unconscious, it seems like he's going to be just fine. The doctors did the best they could. And I was like, how did that happen?

He was shot in the forehead and then he dies. Okay. The doctors did everything they could. Hiram Johnson's widow had originally not wanted to press charges because PC was very apologetic, and he was like, I will pay for the funeral, I will pay for the medical expenses. With what money? Yeah, exactly.

But ultimately, PC was arrested, and he was put on trial, and he was convicted of manslaughter. It's unclear how Emma Gatewood felt about all this, but I imagine she may have felt some sort of relief. If PC was in prison, he couldn't hurt her anymore. Also, I'm amazed that, he was charged with manslaughter and not murder, but okay.

You know, he could argue, I was defending myself. You know, he grabbed his rifle, so I grabbed mine, you know. All right. Not premeditated. You had to go and grab your gun and then come back with it. Well, he's grabbing his gun. Right, and you both came... I shouldn't be defending this.

Yeah, anyway. Anyway, he's convicted of manslaughter, Kristen. But yeah, if PC was in prison, he couldn't hurt Emma anymore. And, you know, she probably felt confident that she could take care of herself. She could take care of the farm. She could take care of the kids. She didn't need him. But, you know, none of that mattered because the judge decided prison was too harsh a punishment for P.C.

He had nine kids, Kristen. He had a farm to run. This is unreal. He also needed time to ride dick. God. So instead, P.C. was ordered to pay $50,000 in restitution. Adjusted for inflation. he owed that widow $1 million.

Yeah, best of luck to her. The Gatewood's debt now seemed insurmountable. It absolutely was insurmountable. They had to sell off half of their farm to make payments. And meanwhile, their family kept growing. In 1923, another son, Nelson. In 1926, another daughter, Louise. And in 1928, Emma gave birth to their final child.

a daughter named Lucy. So in total, the Gatewoods had 11 children. That was a lot of mouths to feed. And you know, that got a lot harder in 1929 when the Great Depression hit the United States. Oh, I'm sorry, I meant to sing that. The Great Depression. Because, as we know on this podcast, when you sing the word depression, really not that bad. Yeah, it goes away.

Have you tried singing? You're welcome. Imagine like filling a prescription for your antidepressants and you're like, I have depression and this is my medicine for it. And then you throw the medicine out the window because you just sing it away. And I also like the idea of being like, you know, medication has a stigma. You know what doesn't have a stigma? Singing in public about depression.

Absolutely not. No. singing poorly in public too. Oh, well, I wouldn't even know how to do that. Yeah. So yeah, the Great Depression was here, Kristen. 40% of the labor force could not get a job. Many people living in the city, they fled to the countryside.

They're going to make a go of the farming life, you know, to live off the land. Yeah. That led to a lot of increased competition in Gallia County, Ohio. Crop prices fell dramatically. The gatewood struggles got, even worse. But you know, despite these really difficult times, Emma Gatewood always opened up her home to folks in need, because oftentimes stragglers appeared on their front porch, you know, begging for a meal, and Emma always fed them. Sometimes they wanted a place to stay, and Emma let them

sleep in the barn, as long as they promise not to smoke. She was a true Christian. Helping those in need and showing compassion and care was a core tenet of her faith. With the Great Depression in full swing, PC had to find more work. He started driving his truck as a school bus, and he made $75 a month doing that. Okay. However, he eventually lost the job when someone else offered to do the same thing for $7 less. PC then started asking family members for money. In 1935, he reached out to his wealthy cousin, Maybel McIntyre.

Maybel was married to nationally syndicated columnist Oscar McIntyre. Really? He went by the name O.O. McIntyre. Okay. I've not heard of him. I'm just excited to have another nationally syndicated columnist. That's right.

His column was called New York Day by Day. It was in more than 500 newspapers. It was a daily look at life in New York for the home folks. He got paid $200,000 a year for that column. Adjusted for inflation, he made about $4 million a year. Shut up. Very expensive. For some boring-ass column about New York?

It was very popular. Well, obviously. So Oscar McIntyre was from Missouri. Okay. I think Plattsburgh, Missouri. All right. And, you know, became a writer, moved to New York. And so it was like his observations of the big city from a small town boy.

Sure. It was extremely popular. Good for him. Well, like the rest of her family, Maybel McIntyre, she wasn't about handouts. She was like, PC, I'll give you some money, but you're going to have to earn the money. And so she said, hey, why don't you renovate my house in Gallup Police? And PC agreed, but he went way over budget. And Maybel forced him to cover the end.

extra cost. She was like, we had an agreement. Oh. Y'all pay you this much. You do this much renovation. He went way over budget. So he owed Maybel money. Oh my God. This is a mess. This man's such an, I was about to call him an idiot. That's the least of my troubles here. This guy is awful and he's stupid. Deadly combination. Yes. But also this cousin kind of sucks. Maybel. Yeah, I mean, I'm not saying, I don't know. Give the man a job he can't. screw up. What's a job you can't screw up? Honestly, I'm not really sure. I retract my idea.

How about watching paint dry? That's not a job, though. We need our best man on this. No drips, please. All the while, PC continued attacking Emma at home. Would have been great if he was in prison. For murder. By now, she was fighting back. During one argument, they fought and they got tangled up in a field. Emma eventually escaped his grasp and she ran. She hid behind a wagon full of corn and PC chased after her with a garden tool. But then a farmhand stepped in to stop him. Emma screamed for the farmhand to back off.

Yeah. She said, this is our fight. She didn't want the farmhand to get hurt. Yeah, and I think she probably wanted to, she wanted to hit him. Well, I mean, sure, but I think when you've seen someone at their worst, and here's a farmhand, someone who is not the owner of the land, yeah, you don't want to see them get involved. Yeah. Yeah. For more than 20 years, she had put up with the violence, the hardship, the pain, the poverty.

And finally, after a particularly bad fight in 1937, where Emma was thrown down. on the floor very hard, Emma decided to plan her escape. Wow. By then, only three children were still at home. There was Nelson, who was 15. There was Louise who was 13, and Lucy, who was 11. One morning before school, Emma told her kids that she loved them, but she had to leave. She promised to send for them later when she could save up enough money.

And then, while PC worked out in the fields, she left. Emma Gatewood made her way to Santa Ana, California. Wow, she got far. Yep. Her mom, brother, and sister were now living there. Okay. She found a job as a nurse, and she started saving money. PC tried to contact her to convince her to come back.

She ignored it. She regularly wrote to her children with no return address. And I'd like to read one of her letters now. Dear Louise and Lucy, I've wanted to write to you all the time, but did not want your dad to know where I was. He is the worst nightmare I ever heard of. I wish he would leave me alone. I do not want him around, and he just might as well give up.

Yesterday, he wired me a large bunch of mums, and not wanting to look at them. I immediately took them to the cemetery and put them on fathers and Myrta's graves. I will bet you could use a new dress, shoes, or coat. I cannot possibly ever think of coming back while he is there, and there is not any use for him to keep pestering me. I try not to think of you and all the things I could and would love to do for you. I will just live and hope things will change so that I can be with you sometime. You be patient and good so that you will not cause so much misery as your dad has.

I would still be with you if he had just kept his hands to himself, in spite of all the ugly things he said to me. But that is all past now. It is just too bad and too late. If he bothers me anymore, I will go to some foreign country, and I will bet he will not bother me. I hope I will never see his old face again. I have suffered enough at his hands to last me for the next hundred years. Living in hopes I can be with you again sometime, I am yours with tons of love, Mama.

Thoughts? Did she write that intending for him to be the way? wanted to read it? I'm not sure. I think she was probably smart enough to know he read all of those letters. Right. That's tough. She was in a terrible, terrible situation. Yes. Where there are no right answers. No real social safety nets. Again, we've discussed that the things he was doing to her were not illegal. I mean, hell, he murdered a guy and nothing really happened to him. And the letter is sad to me for many reasons, one of them being, I don't think an 11-year-old or a 13-year-old, should receive that. I don't know, but I don't like it.

How do you feel about it? I think it's sad. I know that's not a, like, complex answer, but it's just, it's a sad situation. For what it's worth, Emma always said that PC never touched. the children. He always took out his violence on her. Right. So back in Ohio, PC read every letter of course that she sent. They seem, that letter in particular seems like it was written for his eyes only. Yeah. Well, PC forced his kids to write letters back to Emma. Yeah. And he forced them to say, mom, we love you, we miss you, please just come home.

Dad promises he won't hurt you again, things like that. Yeah. And sadly, that tactic seemed to work. Emma really missed her children. She felt incredible guilt for leaving them. Yeah. And she was also dealing with really bad pain from her last fight with PC. She couldn't really afford to get medical treatment,

despite working. And so in 1938, Emma Gatewood went back to Ohio to be with her children, and she hoped that PC would pay for her medical care. Unfortunately, Emma Gatewood returned to an absolute shit show. The farm was in total disarray. Bills were unpaid. Creditors were knocking on the door constantly. PC was now more controlling than ever. he rarely let Emma out of his sight

any work that had to be done on the farm they did it together and to the surprise of probably no one the violence kept going in 1938 PC beat Emma 10 times quote beyond recognition in July of 1939 the gatewoods had to move again this time they were going across the river to Barker's Ridge West Virginia to a tiny farm in terrible condition.

At first, Emma refused because she was like, our kids are in school, we have friends and family in the area, can we please just stay here? But they didn't have a choice. They were in too much debt. They couldn't afford their current living situation. Their new, tiny, crappy farm in West Virginia

allowed them to raise a few sheep and maybe grow some tobacco, but that's about it. Emma had to get a job as a government monitor to earn money. If you're wondering what that is, you're basically a professional snitch. Okay. You have to go around to farms

and you have to make sure farmers aren't growing more tobacco than they're allowed to grow. Oh, God. Yeah. Yeah, surefire way to piss off your neighbors. I was going to say, no kidding. Hi, I'm new in town.

I'm the government snitch. Yeah, basically. And at the same time, she also worked on the farm, along with the rest of her family. And on the weekends, PC left, fulfilling his desires, spending their money, but at this point, Emma just did not give a shit anymore. And then, on a Sunday in September of 1939, Emma was hit for the very last time. That day, her son Nelson walked into the house to find PC on top of Emma, beating her.

Nelson pulled his father off. Emma's face was full of bruises and swollen. Her teeth were broken. She had a cracked rib. A mole had been ripped off of her ear. Oh, my God. Nelson yelled for his mom to run, and Emma got up and she ran into the woods.

P.C. wrangled out of his son's grasp, and he chased after Emma. But Emma had disappeared. Then P.C. came back to the house. He grabbed an iron poker. Oh, my God. And he threatened to smack Nelson with it. But Nelson, who was now 16 and just as big as his dad, warned him, you only get one shot, make it good.

Oh, shit. Okay, Nelson. Okay. We love it. PC did not hit his son. And then he slunked out. When the coast was clear, Emma came back to the house to mend her wounds. But later that evening, PC came back.

with a sheriff's deputy. Oh, what did this fucker do? You know, PC had a lot of friends in the area. He had some political influence. He did? He did. How? He knew people.

Educated guy. Came from some money. Uh-huh. He had influence. And this, you know, they're in West Virginia. They're from Ohio, but it's like 18 miles away. Right. So, like, he knows people.

Okay, okay, yeah. And PC had convinced authorities. that Emma was the one causing trouble. This fucker. Emma watched through a window as PC and the sheriff's deputy approached the door. She grabbed a five-pound sack of flour and she waited. And when PC opened the door, she hurled it at him and it hit him right in the face. The sheriff barged in.

He placed Emma under arrest and he brought her to the local jail. Did he notice the insane brink? roosing all over her? Yeah, really. It's unknown what the charges were, but she was in jail. Meanwhile, word of this incident was spreading around town, and the story eventually made its way to the mayor's office, and the mayor himself decided to check out the story for himself.

So he visited Emma in the jail to talk to her, and he was... Did he go there himself? He did. Okay. Yeah, the mayor went to the jail himself, and he was horrified. He saw it himself. Sorry. What's going on here?

You said this story got to the mayor himself, so he decided to go himself to investigate. And I just noticed a lot of himself. I'm sorry. Wow. I'm sorry. Wow. I'm sorry. I'm having fun.

I'm teasing a little bit in a terrible story that you forced upon us all. Well, I appreciate you lightning the situation, you know. Thank you. So is the mayor a good mayor? Let's find out. The mayor himself visited Emma himself. Uh-huh. He did not send someone else.

He said, that's it. Me, myself and I, I am going down to the jail. He took a look at Emma and he was horrified. He was like, why is a 53-year-old woman with broken teeth, cracked ribs, and a bruised face in jail? Yeah. So the mayor saw it as, this is clearly spousal abuse. And he immediately released Emma and allowed her to live with him until she could recover. Wow.

Yeah. So Emma was safe. She wrote to her kids that she was okay and she would see them again very soon. Meanwhile, PC, perhaps knowing he was about to be in huge trouble, he slunked out. There we go. While the kids were in school, he packed up most of the furniture in the house and he left. What a piece of shit. When the kids, Nelson, Louise, and Lucy returned home, the house was practically empty, looked like a tornado had gone through it. They called their mom. They called their mom. and told her the news. Nelson asked her, do you want me to stay and help get things straightened up tomorrow? And Emma replied, no, go to school. I'll be on the first bus. The next day, as the kids stepped off the bus, there she was, their mom, and the house had been cleaned up. That incident was the last time Emma Gatewood had to be alone with PC. On September 6, 1940, she officially filed for divorce. Wow. A violent, horrible, 35-year marriage was finally over.

Emma received full custody of her children. She was also given the farm. Wow, okay. PC was ordered to continue to make payments on the property. And he also had to pay an alimony of $15 a month. Just for inflation, he had to pay her $350 a month. I'm sure he never paid it, but that is impressive. Yeah, Kristen, you're not going to believe that.

this, he failed to pay alimony. Ah! And Emma threatened to sue him over it. Oh, yeah. But ultimately, Emma was ready to move on. And so they worked out a deal. Well, yeah, at a certain point, I imagine you think to yourself, number one, I want to be done with this guy. Number two, I'm going to spend more money hiring an attorney to sue this guy than I'm

ever going to get out of him. Yeah. Emma later wrote once her divorce was final, I know when I go to a bed that no brute of a man is going to kick me out into the floor and then lie out of it. From then on, whenever a stranger would ask Emma Gatewood if she was married, she would always say, no, I'm a widow, because Perry Clayton Gatewood was dead to her. Love it. So Emma was finally free. She wrote in her diary, quote,

I am more than glad to be free of it all, have been happy ever. since. She read more than ever. She visited friends more than ever. She traveled more than ever. She didn't have to take care of other people anymore. Her kids were now all grown up. Her youngest son Nelson graduated high school in 1941. College was in his future. But then this super boring thing called World War II happened. Oh my gosh, Norm, I actually find it fascinating. I think if you pay any attention at all. The History Channel has some great programs on it. I myself and intellectual am into wars. Here's how out of touch you are, Kristen. The History Channel no longer shows anything about World War II. It's all con stars and ancient aliens and, you know, my dad's a zombie

or whatever show they have on now. Yeah, World War II happened. You probably don't want to hear about it. It's basically a global battle against fascism. It's not a big deal. I mean, we probably don't even worry about fascism anymore, right? No. No. Took care of it. It's like flushing a turd down the toilet. But then didn't go down all the way. And then certain people take a plunger and pull it back up. How far are we going to extend this thing? And then they pull the turd out of the bowl, you see, and they dust it off. And they say, hey, this is actually pretty good. Right.

They convince a lot of people, well, there's nothing wrong with this turd. Uh-huh. So anyway, Nelson, along with his older brother, Robert, they both fought in the war. Robert served in the Army Air Force. He was shot down over Munich, Germany, and he spent one and a half years in a German POW camp. Whoa. Nelson served as a paratrooper, and he fought in the Philippines. Oh, my gosh.

In the Battle of Corregador Island, which, by the way, Corregador Island, I hope I'm saying that right. I don't think you are. Corgador? Let me see. All right, so apparently it's Corregidor Island. It's genie. No. Stop it.

Which, by the way, that island, it's 45 miles away from Lubong Island, where Japanese soldier Hiro-onodon, Hit out for 29 years. Check out that series for more information on that wild story. Kristen, everything is connected. Can you believe this? Yes, it is all connected. Previous topic? I don't have a previous topic.

Oh, wow. Well, F it. We'll just do that. While Emma's sons fought in the war, her youngest daughters, Louise and Lucy, they went to college. Nice. And with nothing tying her down, Emma kind of did her own thing.

She moved around. She got a job in Pittsburgh for nine weeks. Not sure what that job was, but she was in Pittsburgh for nine weeks. When she got tired of that, she bought a house in Rutland, Ohio, and she fixed her up. She did all the work herself. She replaced the cellar stairs. She put balusters on her front porch. She chopped down overgrown trees.

She knocked down a wall, put in a door. HGTV would have been creaming their jeans to sign Emma Gatewood to a Tee. TV deal. I'm about to bust. She continued to read and write poetry. She even went so far as to self-publish a collection of poems and

hand them out to family and friends at Christmas. Wow. The perfect stocking stuffer, Kristen. In 1949, Emma welcomed a new grandchild. Her daughter, Louise, had a baby. Pst, it was out of wet.

Scandalous. This is why you can't send a girl off to college. Mm-hmm. That was her first grandchild? No. A new grandchild. Okay, I was going to say there's no way. She had 23 grandchildren.

Yeah, that's, that honestly seems like a small number. Yeah. So Emma offered to help raise the grandchild. So together Emma and Louise bought a house in Gallup Police, Ohio, located at. Oh, okay. What do we got? 556 Fourth Avenue. Wow.

That's sold for 50 grand. It's the landlord special. Okay. It's pretty grim inside. But, you know, maybe at the time it was a very charming little old house. I mean, this does this. I mean, it is the, well, okay. Yeah.

I see what you mean. I was like, you're judging too harshly, Norm, but no, it's a rougher gal. Absolutely not. Okay. See, in a carpet on the porch. And if you're... Carpet on the porch. And if you're wondering, why would anyone do that?

I'm also wondering why anyone would do that. You know what? I bet there were a bunch of cracks in the concrete, and it was cheaper to just put some, like, astroturfy carpet. Okay. Is it the green? The green carpet? It's blue, but it's, I can just, I can feel this carpet. And it feels like astro turf. You know what?

People love the texture and the smell. Mm-hmm. So Emma Gatewood helped take care of a grandchild. But, you know, to keep things spicy, she liked to read the newspaper and weigh in on local politics. Would you like to hear one of her letters to the editor? Yes. This is just a brief part of it. Okay.

But she wrote, Dear Editor, I was going to write and get in my three cents worth of opinion about how negligent the school board has been about making more room in our over full schools, but decided not to disturb them in their lethargy. Goodness. All right, spicy. Mm-hmm. Two years later in 1951, Louise got married and moved in with her new hubby, leaving Emma Gatewood alone. And so she traveled some more. She took care of relatives. She found work in Owensboro, Kentucky, in Miller, Ohio,

and then worked for five months in a hospital in Columbus, Ohio. And it was while working in that hospital, Emma Gatewood stumbled on something that would change her life. It was the August 1949 issue of National Geographic. Okay. Specifically, it was an article about the longest, continuous footpath in the world, the Appalachian Trail.

The article read like a brochure. It said the Appalachian Trail was a beautiful 2,000 mile hike, full of breathtaking views and wildlife. There were pictures of bears climbing trees, hunky boys scaling cliff sides, ladies in full makeup

hike in the trail. Yeah. The trail was a, quote, soul-chearing, foot-tempting trail. Soul cheering, foot tempting Bring out those little piggies folks The pathways were wide Food was plentiful

Shelters were spaced out within a day's hike Who wrote this bullshit Probably a wolf Or a big bear Yeah bring plenty of food We will provide food But yeah, just bring some also. Anyone can do it, you know, which actually, that's my next sentence.

According to the article, anyone in normal good health could hike the Appalachian Trail. You didn't need any special skills or training to make the journey. How about equipment? Do you need any equipment? Uh, well, you know. Put on your kids. Well, there's some minor hazards. Let's go over them. You know, you might encounter some sketchy animals like snakes.

And, you know, just be real careful over some part. Just be real careful. And, you know, make sure you wear the right clothing for whatever time of year it is. And, you know, maybe bring a tent, maybe some food. Yada, yada, yada, yada. In conclusion, the Appalachian Trail is just wonderful. Emma Gatewood was fascinated. Hiking the Appalachian Trail could be an amazing experience.

And she had always loved walking in nature, you know, being in the woods. And this was literally the longest nature walk in the world. Yeah. But there was one thing in the article that Emma Gatewood couldn't stop thinking about. Only one person, a veteran named Earl Schaefer, had hiked the entire trail by himself. Just one person had done it. And after reading the article, Emma Gatewood couldn't help but wonder, what if she finally did something for herself? What if she did something she truly enjoyed?

What if she hiked the Appalachian Trail? On the next episode of an old-timey podcast, Emma Gatewood's solo hike through the Appalachian Trail gets off to a rough start. Good grief. Did Lanceford Hastings write this article? You know, it does have some Lanceford Hastings vibes. Wow. If it can convince a elderly woman that, yeah, of course you can hike the trail.

Emma is tough as nails is what I've decided. That's the thing. She's a badass. She is an absolute badass, prepared for anything. Well, she was a little underprepared for the Appalachian Trail, but we'll get into that in the next episode. Mentally. Mentally, no doubt. But yes.

So parts two and three will cover her incredible journey hiking the trail. Okay. I'm looking forward to it. Oh, very good. Now, Kristen, you said you had some. Are we getting into our advice column? We are. Okay.

This is brand new, I guess. We're going to try it out. Well, it's one time thing. This is just a little tease. What if people love it? What if people are like, do it every episode? Two damn bad people. Well, no, if people are really, I don't know.

Norm, you're throwing all kinds of things at me. Okay. What's you got? Norm, you know, we don't like to play favorites on an old timey podcast. We don't think it's fair. So I have pulled questions from a few different sources. Okay. We're going to start with our Discord, which if we were the types to play favorites, it would be the people who pay us. And those are the people who have signed up on Patreon and get access to our Discord. We love you. It's pay to play around here. Okay, here we go. Question number one,

Norm, get ready. We're going to rely on you for the witty one. liners. Oh, no, you shouldn't. I hope you have some innuendos up your sleeve. I mean, I know you did a lot of riding dick earlier. I mean, I busted out riding dick all episode. Dear non-threatening hosts, my fiance and I are planning our wedding, and I'm low-key bewildered by how hands-off his parents are in this process. I know they love me as a daughter-in-law. They recently gave us a large gift to help buy our house and have always been super welcoming, but now our barely offering. any opinions and even seemed to have discouraged a dance that I thought they had previously suggested. Have I somehow ended up with the most non-threatening of in-laws? Or is this actually a little weird?

Are they just staying out of it because we're largely paying for it and they don't want to overstep? Or did I secretly win an in-law lottery and am just asking for trouble by wishing they were actually dot, dot, dot, more involved in the planning? Signed, wedding planning is complicated. Hmm. Excellent question. Wedding planning is complicated. Dear wedding planning is complicated.

Okay. Now, what do you say, Norm? Well, my first thought is traditionally the groom's parents are not involved with planning, right? Yeah, traditionally the bride's family. Right. Pays and plans and does it all. But the grooms family does the rehearsal dinner, right?

Yeah, which is, total bullshit, yeah. What advice do you have, Norm? I mean, I guess my advice is like you can't force people to take an interest in something or to like contribute something. And so I think it has to, you have to come from a place of acceptance, I guess, and be like, well, if this is as much as they want to be involved, then that's fine. fine. I've got a very, I felt, I felt very strongly when I read this question. Okay. I think, darling, you are so lucky, so lucky. This is your wedding. Do what you want with it. You are hashtag blessed to not have extra people throwing out their opinions on stuff. Now, you can always, you can always ask their opinion and stuff, but, you know, hey, this is a wonderful thing.

As my therapist says, if you don't know the answer to something, don't assume the worst. That's right. So, not that I've actually taken her up on that ridiculous advice. But I share it with you, darling, and I say, just assume that you've hit the in-law lottery. Yeah, and I do wonder if, like, they know the traditions and they're just trying to respect that. Yeah. They're like, oh, you know, it's your wedding. You do what you want.

And like, you know, you don't need to worry about what we think, blah, blah, blah. Although I do think it's weird they, like, rejected one of the dances. I don't. Because what if, and I'm sorry, but what if this bride is one of those folks who's like, wouldn't it be fun if all of us got together and did a choreographed dance for the guests? Terrifying. Awful. Very cute when I see it on YouTube, but do I want to participate?

No. I'd rather, well, I don't know. I shouldn't say what I'd rather do. It'd be anything. What if they were going to do the stanky leg, choreographed stanky leg? Well, then I would destroy everyone. That's the dance they rejected. No stanky leg for me, please.

We're strictly macarena people. Well, thank you for that question. That was a good one. Okay, next question comes from Instagram. Dear Kristen and Normie C, my husband says he doesn't believe in decorative pillows. Is this a red flag? How many pillows are too many pillows? Sincerely, fluffed and conflicted.

Dear fluffed and conflicted, you've come to the wrong folks because you're going to get two very different answers. You are. This is a very controversial. issue in this household. I say you can never have too many pillows. I say, load it up, baby. I say,

make your entire bed all decorative pillows and just jump on top of all of them when you go to sleep. And that's the way to do it. Also, you should have a body pillow in every room.

Kind of like how some interior decorators think you should have a plant. I think you should have a body pillow just in case, in case you need to snuggle. Well, my opinion is that I'm fine with decorative pillows, but I think there is a point where there are too many decorative pillows.

Our bed, three-fourths of it, is covered in decorative pillows. In my opinion, that is too many decorative pillows. No, you love your life. Shut up. Yes, Kristen. So for me, I'm fine with just the pillow I sleep on. I'm a stomach sleeper. I only need one pillow and I'm good.

If I have more, I'll, you know, I'll wake up looking sideways because my neck is so crooked. Fun fact, I am also a stomach sleeper and I also only need one pillow. That is a lot. You are not a stomach sleep. Sometimes I... You are such a liar. I've watched you sleep. You sleep on your side, sometimes on your back.

Uh-huh. You have this cute little snore. you breathe really deeply and then every now and then you go in your sleep I do and I don't know what you're dreaming about probably Dan Campbell

head coach of the Detroit Lions but yeah I'm fine with decorative pillows but there comes a point where there are too many decorative pillows but you must pick your battles absolutely this is not a deal breaker

got to say our advice on this one has been very unhelpful yeah sorry about that. Poor fluffed and conflicted remains fluffed and conflicted. I think you just have to find compromise, which is what marriage is all about. Oh. So it's like, hey, you don't like decorative pillows, but I like decorative pillows. So maybe we find a number we're both comfortable with, you know? Uh-huh. And the number should probably be 12, is what I'm saying. You can't cover the entire bed in pillows. I'm sorry. When it becomes like a lot of work to make the bed, that's too many decorative

of pillows, all right? This next question comes from our subreddit. Ooh. Dear Kristen and Norm, I have a neighbor who is a lovely lady, however, not self-aware. She will pound on my door instead of a simple knock. If I don't answer, a second round of pounding and so forth, until she decides to use the doorbell, and here we go all over again. I'm clearly not home, quotation marks.

What advice do you have for me to help my lovely neighbor understand that if I don't answer the door the first time, I'm unlikely to answer to further attempts, whether I'm home or not. Sincerely, I just want to nap in peace. Oof, that's annoying as hell. It is. So they, wait, they pound on the door first and then they ring the doorbell? They pound it? They pound it some more, and then they start ringing. Well, that's just very annoying.

Dear, I just want to nap in peace. I think you have two options. Number one is you confront the neighbor and say, hey, could you just ring my doorbell when you need something? And if I don't answer, sorry, I'm not home. Or two, I feel like you could make up a little white lie. That's like, hey, you know, sorry I didn't come to the door, but like I'm in a meeting for work and like, you know,

the noise really disturbs the meeting. So, like, could you not knock on my door during these times or whatever? Norm, I could not disagree with you more. What? What would you do? I think your advice is terrible on this issue. I mean, I agree, but what do you think? You know, we can't have any spicy disagreements if you just go, well, I agree.

Actually, it is bad. Okay. If this is truly a lovely person who is just not self-aware, I think the kindest thing to do is to just level with the person. Because if they're not self-aware, they don't mean to be annoying. They don't mean to irritate. Sure. So give her the benefit of the doubt. And ironically, it will feel rude to do this.

I think because we're conditioned to, you know, oh, well, it's this other thing. about, no, here's my advice. Go to this lovely lady and say, hey, you know, I've got a weird thing where sometimes when I get home after a long day of work or whatever, sometimes I just don't feel like socializing. I just don't have the capacity for it. So sometimes, you know, people will knock on the door and I just, I just don't answer. And I hear you, it's nothing personal, but I just want to be alone. So all you have to do, do his knock. I hear you. But if I don't come within a few minutes, then... Well, hang on. What? I think just wants to take a nap, doesn't even want to knock because they're trying to nap,

and the knock's going to wake him up. What if you offered, hey, shoot me a text? And if I don't respond, then I'm not home. I'm not available. Yeah, I think my advice on this is just be direct with the person. Yeah, that's probably the best advice. It is the best advice. Absolutely. Kristen, you're 100% right all the time. So we agree that there can never be too many decorative pillars on a bed.

I will stand and fight against that. Just like those boys in World War II. Wow. Is that what they were fighting over? No, they were fighting over something much more important. Okay. All right. Should we wrap this episode up, Norm?

Yes. Hey, thank you all. so much for your support. I'm excited to be on the hot mic again for this series. And I hope you enjoyed this kind of a downer episode, but also, gosh, what a, what a strong woman. And, like, this journey is just getting started, folks. Darn right. You know what they say about history, hoes, Norm? We always cite our sources. That's right. For this episode, I got my information from The Book, Grandma Gatewood's Walk, the inspiring story of the woman who saved the Appalachian Trail by Ben Montgomery and the documentary Trail Magic, the Grandma Gatewood Story,

and other sources. Check the show notes. That's all for this episode. Thank you for listening to an old-timey podcast. Please give us a five-star review wherever you listen to podcasts, and while you're at it, subscribe. Support us on Patreon at patreon.com slash old-timey podcast. Join the Reddit community, R-slash-old-timey podcast. Follow us on Facebook and YouTube and Instagram at Old Timey Podcast. You can also follow us individually on Instagram.

She is the beautiful Kristen Pitts-Keruso. I go by a gaming historian. And until next time, Tudu, Tata, and Cheerio. Bye. See ya. See ya.