An Old Timey Podcast - 91: Charles Guiteau: The Man Who Would Kill a President (Part 3)

Episode Date: February 18, 2026

It was the summer of 1880, and Charles Guiteau didn’t have much going for him. He was unemployed. He had very little money. He had no relationships. His family members feared he was insane. But Charles didn’t see himself that way. He thought he was destined for greatness. He’d convinced himself that he was an excellent public speaker with an eye for politics. So? He dedicated himself to James Garfield’s presidential campaign.In less than a year, he’d assassinate the president of the United States. Remember, kids, history hoes always cite their sources! For this episode, Kristin pulled from: The book, “Destiny of the Republic: A Tale of Madness, Medicine, and the Murder of a President,” by Candice MillardThe book, “Dark Horse: The Surprise Election and Political Murder of President James A. Garfield,” by Kenneth D. Ackerman“Murder of a President” documentary and additional resources from PBS.org“‘As a Matter of Fact, I Presume I Shall Live to be President’”: A Brief Biographical Sketch of Garfield’s Assassin” from the National Park Service“The Oneida Community,” by John H. Martin for the Crooked Lake Review“John Humphrey Noyes,” for BritannicaAre you enjoying An Old Timey Podcast? Then please leave us a 5-star rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts!Are you *really* enjoying An Old Timey Podcast? Well, calm down, history ho! You can get more of us on Patreon at patreon.com/oldtimeypodcast. At the $5 level, you’ll get a monthly bonus episode (with video!), access to our 90’s style chat room, plus the entire back catalog of bonus episodes from Kristin’s previous podcast, Let’s Go To Court.

Hear ye, hear ye. You are listening to an old-timey podcast. I'm Kristen Caruso. And I'm Norman Caruso. And on this episode, I'll be talking about the man who assassinated President Garfield. Part three. This is the episode I've been waiting for, Kristen. Why? Because he's an interesting fella. Oh, good grief. Folks, we're going on a journey today. Okay, you're... Well, I don't have to you're doing you're here and you can't turn it off. Mm-hmm. Impossible.

We signed a contract with some podcasting apps. It's bad, but you're lucked in baby. Whoa. No. I don't want any part of this. Did you sign these without me? Norm, do you have a Patreon plug for folks? I do.

Folks, if you're listening to this podcast and you're thinking, gee, I wish I could support these two incredible people, especially that Norm guy. He's just terrific. What the hell? Well, I have good news. You can support this small, sexy, independent podcast for only $5 a month over at patreon.com slash old-timey podcast. $5?

That's pennies a day. And with that, you'll get access to our Discord chat to look at pictures of cute pets. And you get access to the entire catalog of old-timey bonus episodes. With full video, I might add. Is anyone else doing that on the internet? I don't think so. No, no one's putting videos on the internet. Not that I've seen.

None. It's all gifts and old. oil paintings. Kristen recently did an episode on one of the most hated men of the 19th century. His name was Lanceford Hastings, the man who doomed the

Donner Party. We hate him. You can learn about the time Native Americans stripped him naked and pointed and laughed at his little weiner. Oh my gosh, this song! Kyla and I got in trouble when we were little kids for singing this song, but we didn't invent it, Mom.

I'm sure. Ray Ray would come down on you hard for listening to that. She was so upset. You know what? This one's for you, Shireay, Ray. Or better yet, how about you learn about the history of the pet rock? Honestly, can you think of a bolder topic than that, Kristen? I cannot.

So please consider supporting us over on patreon.com slash old-timey podcast. Thank you very much. And Kristen, with that, take it away. Okay, bad news. We are starting off with a mistake. shame. So if you could cue up the voice. Oh boy. Hang on. Mistakes of shit.

All right. What the hell did you do, Kristen? Folks, I know that you think of me as a role model, a woman who has it all. You say I'm the perfect woman, a well-oiled machine, and that's all absolutely true. But last week, I told you that this week's episode would be all about Charles Gutot and James Garfield's cabinet picket. battles. Well, I have bad news. The Kristen of last week lied to you. Don't worry, though, she's gone now. I'm here, and I'm better than her because I'm always improving. I'll tell you a secret. Last week, Kristen, hadn't written this week's script. She assumed she'd

have room for all those dudes. But as you'll soon see, this episode is about one man and one man only. Charles Gutot. And once you learn about him, I think you'll see that he wouldn't have it any other way. I mean, that's true. This has been another shameful segment of mistakes of shame. So very, very shameful. And now?

Previously. Oh, right. Now, before I do this, Kristen, you're not going to, like, get all worried that you can't hear it, right? You know, you're not wearing headphones. That was last week, Kristen. Last week's Kristen didn't understand how headphones work. She also didn't understand what she could do in this week's script.

I'm better now. I told you I'm always improving. Okay. Well, I just wanted to make sure. Here we go. Previously on an old-time podcast. James Garfield campaigned for president, and by the narrowest,

margins, he won! It was a hard-fought campaign, and now a man who'd been born in a one-room log cabin, a man who'd been raised by his widowed mother, a man who'd risen from poverty to become an academic, a brigadier general, a congressman, was now president-elect of the United States. Inaguration day was so close you could taste it, but, ew, does anybody else have a weird in their mouth? That, dear listeners, is the taste of the spoils system, and I suggest you get used to it, or at the very least, get used to me explaining it to you in every episode of this series, because stop me if you've heard this one, in those days, once a political party won their

election, they'd give all the government jobs to their closest friends and supporters. And with James Garfield declared a winner, a lot of people who'd helped with his campaign, and even some folks who hadn't helped, expected to be rewarded, rewarded with a job. But as inauguration day loomed, perhaps no one, literally no one, felt more entitled, nay, deserving of a political appointment than a little-known man named Charles Guto. In this week's episode, we'll learn all about the little man with the big, dreams. It sounds like the makings of a sweet story. I assure you, it is not. Here we go. Very good. Okay. Let's get into this because this guy had, well, you know what? I'm going to let you tell

the story. Oh, thank you, sir. Oh, my goodness. I was criticized on the internet last week. I loved it. Thank you critics. Thank you critics of Norm. Norm, what they say? I didn't, I didn't read any comments. I didn't Basically, they said that I knew too much about the subject. I was too smart. And so because of that, I kept maybe interrupting with more incredible information that maybe you left out of your script. No, that's not quite what I saw. So they said, hey, maybe next time, Kristen should pick a topic that Norman knows nothing about, which is impossible, by the way. But anyway, yes, I hear you, I see you, your feedback is appreciated.

Seems like you didn't quite see the feedback. We're making changes, okay? I will not interrupt as much. No, people love the chaotic energy of last week's episode because we were on a real wild tear. But they did roast you lightly, just lightly toasted you because you at some points did try to tell the story with me. I did. Because you watched death by lightning a month ago. By the way.

Oh, what? I want to add this before we get into Charles Gatot. Okay. You know how I forced you to tell us who the Confederate General was that fought against James Garfield? Yes. His name was Humphrey Marshall. Yes. I found a picture of this man.

Okay. He looks like what the name Humphrey should look like. Okay. I'm picturing a man who more resembles a basset hound than a human man. You got it. Humphrey, you did not disappoint other than leading the Confederacy. Yeah. In the video version, we will obviously show a picture of Humphrey. But if you're just...

Just put a basset hound up. If you're listening to the audio, go out and find a picture of this man. He's a interesting-looking fella. Anyway, Charles Gatow. Tell us Kristen. Okay, picture it. Boston. June 1880. Charles Guto was so busy, very busy, super busy. Big things were happening at the Republican National Convention in Chicago, and Charles Guto was reading all the newspapers soaking up all that hot political info. He basically had the inside scoop. He just knew that the Republicans were going to

nominate Ulysses S. Grant for a third term. And he figured that the Democrats were going to nominate Winfield Scott Hancock and Charles knew that to the victor go the spoils so he'd already started drafting an amazing speech that no one had asked him to give. That speech, Norm, would really move the needle because Charles Guteau was a political genius actually. Wow. He was super well connected. God's gift to women. I'm sorry, God's gift to everyone actually. The only thing that sucked was that some people, morons, couldn't tell that they were in the presence of greatness, even when he was standing right there in front of him. But that was their loss, baby, because Charles Guteau was going places. I hate when that happens. You know, people don't appreciate your, you know, your greatness when you're

standing there. And you're just standing there being awesome right in front of them. I know. I know. Well, that was kind of what Charles Gutoe thought was happening. The truth was that in June of 1880, He was just a man in his late 30s whose life was marked with failures. He'd tried a number of different careers. He'd been an attorney. Why did you smile at a middle-aged man with a life marked by failures? No reason. Were you picturing some dudes?

Maybe. Maybe I was looking in the mirror. I'm looking at the man in the mirror. He'd tried a number of different careers. He'd been an attorney. a traveling evangelist, an insurance salesman, a writer, a businessman, and he'd failed at all of it. But he never seemed to be responsible for his failures. Ah, that's too bad.

What? No, you don't want to be the one responsible. It's great when it's someone else's fault every time, all the time. Well, I'm saying, like, he's down on his luck because everyone else is failing. He's bad luck for him, you know? You're just so hard on his side. I got confused. I feel bad for him. Charles Guto was a delusional man, who was, in many ways, a victim of his own grandiosity,

but whose narrative is made so much more complicated by the fact that he continuously victimized so many others. By the summer of 1880, a time that would prove to be a turning point in his life, Charles Guto had nothing going for him, didn't have a job, had very little money. Everywhere he went, he left behind a flurry of unpaid bills and angry creditors. He had no relationships. He'd burned everyone who'd ever tried to help him. He was prone to fits of rage and occasional violence. Charles needed help, serious help.

But he did not know that. It seems that the one thing he did know was that the world owed him something. It owed him proof of his own greatness. Like nearly everyone who followed politics that year, Charles was shocked to learn that a dark horse candidate named James Garfield had won the Republican nomination for president. The news was thrilling. It captured his attention. Some people speculate that maybe in his unwell mind, Charles imagined that he and James Garfield were similar. Similar in that they'd both been dealt some disadvantages in life, but that they'd been destined all along to rise above it and that they were connected. in that way. You think maybe he saw a connection because James Garfield kind of came from nothing

and Rose to be the nominee and Charles Guteau was like, oh my gosh, I can do that too. I actually don't at all. Really? I kind of like that theory because I think we all want to make sense of something. But to me that's trying to make sense of something that does not make sense at all. I think that he was writing this speech for Ulysses S. Grant. Right. We'll see he barely changed it when he made it for Garfield.

Yep. Oh, Norm, the way a bunch of words bubbled up in the back of your throat and you wanted to just shout him out at me, but you're like, someone online told me to let her tell the story. That was beautiful. Beautiful. Sounds like someone's struggling for power. No, there's almost a part of me, and maybe we're too early in this story to say this, but there's a part of me that feels like with so, little protection around political figures at this time and was someone as unhinged as Charles Guto became, I feel like this would have happened to Grant if he had been the president.

Oh, so it kind of didn't matter who the nominee was. That's just my opinion. But that's only because my therapist recently said to me, Kristen, why do you spend so much time trying to find logic in illogical people. Which is a great point. And I said, how dare you? So Charles Guteau decided that in the upcoming election, James Garfield would get his full support.

And in giving him that support, Charles' own life would turn around. And boy, did he need it to turn around. He'd been born in Freeport, Illinois. Do they pronounce the tea in Freeport? I don't know. I've learned a lot lately. Should we look it up? Hang on.

No, I'm pronouncing the T because if they don't, that's just bonkers. I'm looking at you, Miner, Ohio. I'm going to look this up. Okay. Because the people of Freeport will get their pitchforks and come after it. Freeport's probably not that far from Kansas City, Kristen. It's a nice drive. It's a nice drive.

Oh, boy. Shut up. Oh, boy. You're lying. You're not going to believe this. No, I don't. I already don't believe it. You are preparing for a joke.

Everyone, it's spelled F-R-E-E-P-O-R-T, free port. It's pronounced for port-A. Shut up. Fre-Porte. Norman, the penalty for lying on a podcast. Uh-huh. You go to the chair, okay? Oh, like the electric chair.

Find out the hard way. Okay, I'm just playing a little chair. All right. Okay, very good. The rim shot saved me there. It is pronounced Freeport. Thank God. You were sweating over there.

I saw a beat of sweat come down your beautifully styled hair. Thank you. I was upset. Anyhow, he'd been born in Freeport, Illinois. The fourth of six children of those six children half survived to adulthood because it was the 1800s. Charles' mother died when he was just seven, which meant that. that he was raised mostly by his father. His older sister, Francis, tried to step in as a mother figure,

but she was only six years older than him, still a child herself. And Charles was kind of tough to handle. He struggled with self-regulation. He was hyper. He didn't look people in the eye. He didn't fit in socially. There was something different about him. His speech was delayed.

He had what might now be called a learning disability. some concepts just took a while to sink in, and when they didn't sink in fast enough, his father, Luther, would beat him or berate him. Luther Guteau was what people at the time called a strict man, and what I call an abusive man. Mm-hmm, yep. As a parent, he had two basic modes, neglect or abuse.

And as soon as that came out of my mouth, I realized that's really the same thing, You know what I mean. Yes. But in fairness to Luther, what choice did he have? Little Charles was so far from perfect. And that was a problem. Because Luther Gatot believed that perfection was not only possible, but achievable for everyone.

If we all just behaved the right way. Perfect is not the enemy of good. Perfect is better than good. Duh. Duh. Come on, people. Why stop it? Good, when perfect's right there.

He followed the religious teachings of John Humphrey Noise. Humphrey? Yeah, what? Sorry, it's just another Humphrey we've mentioned in this episode. I'm going to show another picture of a basset hound. Oh, my gosh. I can't wait to see what this guy looks like. The rule of this podcast, henceforth, is that every time the word Humphrey appears,

a basset hound must appear in the video. Yeah, like a chunky basset hound, too. There's no other way. You show me a skinny basset hound. I'll cry. I don't want to see it. Chunksters only. And they better look sad, too.

He doesn't really have the Humphrey look. But his name, to be fair, his first name is John. Yeah. So he only, he's like a just a minor Humphrey. So got a little stank of humphrey. He's a mixed breed. He's a mixed breed Humphrey. He's a mutt, you know.

John Humphrey Noise was kind of the inventor of Christian perfection. So everybody, I'm going to need you to buckle up and fly right because we're about to soak in the religious teachings of John Humphrey Noise, but remember to pull out before you get too excited. And these are all jokes that you'll understand better in a minute. Is it? What, Norm? Is that a sex joke there? My God. Are you making a sex joke?

I'm talking about Christianity, sir. Okay. Everyone, I'm sure you're wearing pearls, and I do hope you're clutching them. And really, looking down on Norman, that was very imperfect of you to bring up sex at a time like this. Hey, how about this? When we're all so horny. How about this joke? What? Oh, come, all ye faithful.

Okay. Huh? Yeah. Not bad. Not bad. You're the first guy to think of that. I'm not, for sure. John Humphrey Noyes was a religious philosopher.

When he was a student at Yale Divinity School, he had a eureka, moment when he made a major discovery. He discovered what all the other dummies had neglected to notice that the second coming of Christ had already happened. Oh, which meant... We missed it? Yeah. Yeah. Shit. Norm, thank you for taking this seriously. So many people did not take this seriously. I missed it. I had my guitar lesson. It's always the guitar lesson. Yeah. It had already happened, which meant that we were in a new age, an age where perfection was possible. And guess what? John Humphrey Noise, he himself achieved perfection. Thanks to his discovery, he was now without sin. Thank you very much. And good news, good news. He could teach anyone else how to be perfect because he knew

the way now. Okay, he'd been down the road. Oh, oh, good. You just had to follow his teachings and interpret the Bible the way he interpreted the Bible. Bing, bang, boom, you'd be perfect. Did you have to give him some money? Oh, he wanted a lot of stuff. Mm-hmm. Even though John was definitely onto something, the jealous, imperfect people at Yale Divinity School disagreed. In fact, when he shared his idea in class,

because I'm sorry I thought this was America, a fellow student became so upset that he fainted. Fainted? I have noticed in these old-timey stories, people were fainting left right and center, just all the time. Yeah, what's up with that? I don't know.

When did we get rid of fainting in society? When did we get rid of the drama of a good faint? And can we bring it back? Imagine if you were telling this story to me, and I fainted in this chair. The truth was you were just wanting a nap, but you know, you wanted to send a message. Pretty soon, John Humphrey Noyes, a completely perfect man, was expelled from Yale. But that was Yale's loss because what Yale didn't know was that God, Had personally selected John to lead a new religious movement, and boy did he.

He went to Putney, Vermont, where he created a group called the Bible Communists. Nice. Tagline, come on, feel the noise. Oh. Come on, feel the noise. I kind of like it. I'd join. Yeah.

Actually, I hate this man. I would leave after a few minutes. He published some books. He married the woman who gave him the money to publish said books. Oh. And uh-oh, right around the time when John developed urges for his friend's wife, he decided that traditional marriage sucked actually and monogamy was bad? Yeah? What he came up with instead was something I once saw modeled on a surprisingly boring TLC reality show.

It was the idea of complex marriage where people enter into a mutual agreement. and everyone bangs. Well, not really everyone, because you've got to keep a hetero. Oh, okay. So no homosexual love. Well, see, I find it hard to believe that they were really, you know, making those kind of, well, who knows? I'm sure they did have rules. But from what I saw, I was like, every dude is every woman's husband.

Every woman is every dude's wife. Wow. Okay. You seem a little too excited. I need to remind you, you are with the best right now, okay? Now just never go outside, never look around and just trust me. No, no. That's just a lot of pressure to have that many wives.

You think? How many people are at this commune? Well, I didn't even, you know, we're not even there yet. Right now it's just a small thing, very containable, all right? Okay. Technically, John got to bang whoever he wanted, but he had some. some rules for some of the other people. So he didn't have to follow the rules.

Well, he made, Norma, you know what, that's enough? I can tell you're not enlightened enough to get it. So as punishment, I'm not going to explain anymore. Okay. Evidently, the folks of Putney, Vermont weren't ready for John's spicy ideas or his wandering penis, so they arrested him. But you can't keep a perfect man down. So he bailed out, he skipped town, he fled to Oneida, New York.

Is it pronounced Oneida? I looked it up. Or is it Oneida? It's Oneida. Come for me. I dare you. This is like that movie, that thing you do. Remember, they were called The Wonders, and it was spelled O-N-E-D-E-R-S,

and the announcers kept calling them the Oneeters. Oh, I never saw that movie. What? I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I've never seen any movie. I've mostly focused on Adam Sandler films before Uncut J-E-R-E-E-E-R-E. Jims.

Yeah. Kristen watched Jack and Jill the other night. No, I did not. Loves it. No. And then she put on Click. Now, actually, I watched Click. That's ridiculous.

You want to talk about a tone shift in a film? Norm, no one knows what you're talking about. No one saw Click. No one saw. Okay. If they did, it was a million years ago. I am instituting the question of the week for our history hose. Okay.

Have you seen the film Click starring Adam Sandler? and Kate Beckinsale and Christopher Walken. Let us know in the comments wherever you listen to podcast. Question of the week. Very important research we're doing here. Also, let Norm know if he interrupts me too often. No, no, don't do that. No, I'm doing just fine this episode, actually.

The Oneida community quickly became a popular utopian socialist community where people could come together and engage in free love, shared labor, and best of all, mutual criticism. Mutual criticism? Mutual criticism? Norm, you married a Pitts gal. You've been familiar with this concept for a very long time. Refresh me.

Well, you're going to learn more, but basically, they'd sit around in a circle, okay? And they'd tell each other, hey, these are the flaws that I see in you. And, you know, the aim is for perfection, but you also get to judge. Oh, so it's like the airing of the grievances, basically. Basically. Okay. Yeah. I get it.

They had festivist every day at this place. Okay. By the way, I really enjoy that you skipped right by free love. You know, the sex stuff, very appealing. You brought it up at the top of the show. Well, you mentioned. Mutual criticism really. Well, hang on.

You mentioned that like every man was married to every woman and every woman was married to every man. That was in his original community. Keep up. He's doing a lot of sex stuff, a lot of communities. This is a whole new thing. This is the new one in New York. Yes. Okay.

Charles Guto's father, Luther, had always been obsessed with the teachings of John Humphrey noise. Come on, feel the noise. He was a huge fan. Girls rock your voice. Oh, my God, I was ignoring you. We'll get wild, wild, wild. And he really wanted to join the Oneida community. But by that point, he'd remarried.

And his new wife was being a real wet blanket about the whole thing. But around that same time, Charles was 18 years old. He was out on his own at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor. Go Wolverines. Yeah, he didn't feel that way. He was really struggling there. Oh, well, I mean, if he had a learning disability and, I mean, yeah, that'd be tough. That's a Kristen diagnosis, but I think we can all agree I'm maybe on to something.

Well, you are perfect, you know. Sure, sure. And I know that because I studied this John Humphrey noise guy, read the whole Wikipedia page, and I'm good now. You've got it. So Charles did what his father wanted to do but couldn't. He went to the Oneida community. He became a member of the nearly 300-person group. Wow, that's quite a large following.

This thing thrived for like 30 years. Turns out people like doing sex to each other and having a nice place to stay. We like the sex. Okay, he moved into a building that is still standing today. It's called the Mansion House. It's still there today? Google it, Norm. Has someone used a black light in that house?

Norm, you Googled the movie Click a moment ago. Come on. I did, I did actually. The mansion house in Oneida? Yeah. So this is where all the banging was, huh? Yeah. It's beautiful.

Whoa, that's a nice house. Yeah, no kidding. Yeah, that's a sweet-looking house. So this is where everyone was humping. That's right. Now, you might think that a free love utopian society might have been the one place where Charles Guto could fit in, potentially. After all, he had so much in common with the founder.

They were both ridiculous men who knew that God agreed with them about everything. Charles expected to be greeted with open arms and open legs. He was ready to get down. And don't worry. And he was like 18? Yeah. Yeah. So he's like primed up.

He's horny as hell. Hold me back, ladies. Yes, absolutely. He understood that John Humphrey Noise had strict rules about limiting pregnancies in the community. So, how? Male continents. Huh? Now, you may be saying to yourself, Kristen, please tell me more about male continents.

Well, it's a tough concept. John wrote about it extensively. He lectured about it. He made it seem so complicated. This dude, I swear to you, he thought he invented a whole new thing. And it is shocking how someone can talk about something so basic, but make it so boring and complicated. I'm going to simplify it for you now. Oh, excellent.

And I hope his ghost is deeply offended by it. Okay, what is he talking about here? He was a pull-out king, and he wanted all the other dudes to be pull-out kings. I mean, that's exactly what I thought. Yes, that's what everyone thought. But you wouldn't believe he's like, well, this part of the sexual experience is actually this, and this part. No, dude, pull out. Yeah, I figured he would write about, like, angels coming down and pulling the man out with their spiritual hands or something.

He very well might have with all the crap he wrote about this. Yeah. So Charles showed up at the Oneida community, ready to party. But, boy, was he disappointed? Because what in the consensual sex? None of the women wanted to bang him. No. Oh, no.

Now, in fairness, I don't think Charles did him. himself any favors when he tried to give himself the nickname God's Minuteman. No! Charles! That's not the nickname you want in a free love colony. What? It's a Christian free love colony. Minuteman?

Don't you want to be with God's Minuteman? God's Minute Man. Give me 60 seconds. I'll show you a good time. I promise. By the way, the women of the. community had a nickname of their own for Charles Guteau. It was Charles, get out. Oh, that sucks so bad if you go to a free love call. And no one wants to have sex with you.

That would be a blow to the old ego. I don't know if I could ever recover from that. No. I think I would become like an underground mole man or something. Well, what if you had some grandiosity to keep you a Because Charles, instead of, you know, being sad about it for too long, he was really mad. He was the original in-cell. And yet because he was born tragically before his time, he had no weird Internet community to turn to. I know. Yeah. If he was alive today, he'd be like, women should be in jail.

Yeah. How do we make this happen? Okay, so he's pissed off. Yes. That no one wants to have sex with him. Yes. Because he's God's minute man. Do they really have a right to turn it down?

Come on. They're basically turning down God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Maybe you didn't hear me earlier at the meeting, but my nickname is God's Minuteman. Do you want to reconsider, maybe? With his balls as blue as his mood, Charles was also sad to discover that they wanted him to work. But didn't they know that he was special? Didn't they know that he was above menial labor? Working in the fields was fine for the other people in the other people in the world.

the community, but not for Charles Gattot. He wanted to be like noise and like, yeah, he wanted to just write, write little pamphlets. God was totally with him. God didn't want him doing this work, okay? He's God's minute man. He talked to God about it. God was like, yeah, I don't want you to do anything other than have sex and, you know,

eat snacks. God said the same thing to me, by the way. That's true. How about instead of the movie Gone in 60 Seconds, it's come in 60 seconds. A lot of great ideas. Still starring Nicholas Cage. Ew. I think I'll skip it.

Okay. Yeah, he's like an agent of God, just like Noise. Yeah. And so he wants to write a 300-page manifesto on... Well, you're jumping ahead. He just doesn't want to have to do any of the work that is beneath him, you know. Yeah. Well, Noyes wrote a novel about pulling out, which I think I'm going to read after we record.

Charles Gatot maybe wants to write about. Norm, you are so jumping ahead. He doesn't want to do anything other than bang and enjoy himself right now. He wants to bang him. Right. So he's having a tough time with it. Okay. His attitude didn't win him any friends.

But he stuck with that bad attitude. They should all be grateful that he was there. He was better than them. Didn't they know that? They should all bang him without complaint and stop asking him. to do work. In a fit of desperation, he wrote a letter to the founder. In it, he wrote, You prayed to God to send you help, and he has sent me. Had he not sent me, you may depend upon it. I never should have come. I ask no one to respect me personally, but I do ask them to respect me

as an envoy of the true God. Wow. Yeah. Wow. He thinks that God sent us. He thinks that God him to the free love colony for noise benefit. For everyone's benefit. For everyone's benefit. But doesn't even want to work. Well, God sent him, okay? I don't know how much more plain I can be. Okay.

Somehow, the enlightened people at the Oneida community weren't quite enlightened enough to appreciate Charles. That became all too clear during what quickly became his least favorite part of living at the utopian society. Mutual criticism. Oh, no. It's like the roast of Charles Gatto every night. Yeah.

They told him things like, hey, you're full of yourself. Hey, you've got this ridiculously huge ego. Cut it out. I personally don't know where they got that idea. But allow me to tell you a completely unrelated story. One day, Charles was walking along. And someone noticed that he dropped a piece of paper. So they picked it up.

And it read, Charles J. Guto of England, premier of the British Lions. We'll lecture this evening at 7 o'clock. Wait, of England? Uh-huh. Premier of the British Lion will lecture this evening at 7 o'clock. At the colony? At nowhere.

This is ridiculous. Yeah, so he's just like making up scenarios and characters in his head. It's like when I doodle on my notebooks, Mrs. Dan Campbell. Again. In the little hearts. Yeah. Mrs. Dan Campbell will lecture. you all at 7 p.m. tonight in Carnegie Hall.

Yeah. Charles stayed at the community for a surprisingly long time. But after six years, he announced that he had been called by God to leave the community and start a religious newspaper. He was there for six years? Right. And wasn't getting anything? Listen, I'm sure he got a pity bang or two.

I mean, what are the odds? Yeah. Or maybe not. I don't know. I feel like three months tops. if no one's given you the free love. You know, it must have been better than the alternative. I should say that it was about more than just the love in there.

Obviously, people enjoyed the free love there, but it's also like a religious community and like a socialist community. Everyone worked together for the benefit of everybody. So, yeah, maybe it's about more than that. Maybe I need to get my mind out of the gutter. Maybe you do. Mm-hmm. So he left to start a religious newspaper.

And that's exactly what he did, sort of. For four months, Charles worked like a madman, thrilled with his own vision for a new kind of religious newspaper. He knew that it would be an instant success. Everyone would read it. It would change the world. He'd be rich. He'd be famous. He'd be important.

He'd be respected about damn time. But, oh, geez, newspapers are expensive. And it turned out that everyone didn't want to read it. Charles went back to the Oneida community with his tail between his legs. So what made this newspaper so different? Is it just stuff he was saying? No, nothing really. It was just a regular old religious newspaper.

Well, I doubt it was regular. I mean, I'm sure he was kind of just ripping off a bunch of the teachings he'd learned at the Oneida community and adding in his own spice and flair. But yeah, it is a business. And I think you do have to have some supporters. have to have some money. Especially back then. It's not like he can start a Tumblr blog. Again, he was before his time.

Exactly. He fit right in on Tumblr too. His second go-around didn't last long. Charles later sued the Oneida community for back pay. But when that lawsuit didn't go his way, he launched a blackmail campaign against John Humphrey Noise. What? That's not very godlike.

I agree. But probably God-tile. told him to do it. You know, that's the logic of these things. Right. He threatened to tell everyone about all the wild sex that was happening at the community, unless John paid up. This was actually, in my opinion, a pretty good threat. What?

But isn't it advertised as a free love community? Well, I think they tried to keep it a little hush, hush, because, you know, you could get arrest for a lot of stuff back in the day. That's true. Spoiler alert. John Humphrey Noise. Okay, I really regretted it. last time I was like, let's do a bonus episode about the man I hate the most, but I really do

hate this guy. He ended up fleeing the community when he caught wind that he might be in trouble for statutory rape. Oh. I do think that this was probably a pretty decent blackmail. I'm sure there was all kinds of stuff going on there that was against the law in those days and probably today. Oh, well, and he's also the guy that was like rules for thee and not for me. Yeah, so he had, I wasn't even going to get into this, but he had a rule where like, he could bang all the women he wanted, but the young dudes could only bang the menopausal women for practice because, you know, pulling out is so difficult. Are you serious? For practice? I'm serious. It's a whole, I mean, this guy, I'm not a fan. I don't know if you're

getting the vibe. I'm not a fan. So Charles makes this threat, but John Humphrey Noyes didn't even respond to it. He did not take Charles Guto seriously. Very few people did. By that point, John Humphrey Noyes was pretty convinced that Charles was insane. After Charles left the Oneida community, he seemed to be on a real upswing. At the time, the state of Illinois didn't require people to attend law school before taking the bar exam. That's right. So Charles went to Chicago, read some books, and sat for the bar. Abraham Lincoln became a lawyer without going to law school.

Kim Kardashian, are you inspired yet, honey? Hey, she failed the bar exam, didn't she? Okay. Yeah, she did, but, you know, hey, not all of us who tried to do the law school thing. Anyhow, let's... I'm sorry, I forgot, Kristen. I forgot. You had your one semester of law school. That's right. And, um, I did so well at it that they asked me to leave. You're too good for this place, Kristen. The bar exam was administered by an attorney who must have been on the verge of some very explosive diarrhea because the guy only asked Charles three questions.

What? And when Charles got two of them right, the dude was like, good enough for me. Doodles, you're a lawyer now. That's a 66%? We'll take it. Yes. You pass. Holy shit, so he drank too much colon blow in the morning and said, oh, shit. That's the only excuse I can think of why this would only be three questions. This may shock you, but Charles turned out to be a very bad attorney.

Well, no, shit. But who cares? He was still an attorney and that was very respectable. So. Can you imagine what? You have a slam dunk lawsuit and you hire Charles Gatotow. as your lawyer? Oh, you'd regret it. You'd regret it. High on life and flashing his business cards at everyone, Charles met and married a very unlucky woman named Annie Bunn. Annie was working as a librarian for the local YMCA when they met, and although she no doubt had high hopes for their marriage,

it didn't take long for her to realize that she'd made a big mistake. Charles wasn't who he believed himself to be or who he purported himself to be. He had a temper. He beat her when she disagreed with him. Some days, she wasn't even sure why he was beating her. He was so angry, angry with the world, and he took it out on her. They were always low on money, always fleeing apartments in the middle of the night just before the bill was due. They dodged creditors. This was not the life Annie had envisioned for herself. It was chaotic and scary. What little money they had, Charles spent on himself, on his clothing, on his image. Annie just had to make do because Charles was the important one. He was an attorney. He needed to look good. This sounds awful. Oh, it's hell. It would be hell.

I'd like to know more about her how long they knew each other before they got married. you know, marriage, especially back at that time, was, could be such a security for a woman. You didn't want to be alone. You know, that was just terrible. But oh, my gosh. And you, you meet a guy who seems to have it together. I mean, he's an attorney. Okay. And I'm sure, you know, youth really covers up for a lot of things, I think. And so you, you might think, oh, yeah, I'm pairing up with this guy who's going places. And wow, what a, How long, do you know about how long the courtship was? I don't.

Okay. I assume it was very fast. I know generally back then they were much faster courtships. So, yeah, you really don't get to know a person that well in that short amount of time. Mm-hmm. And then you start living together and then you learn, ooh, yeah, that sucks. Next thing you know, you dip your head in there burp and you almost pass out. Mm-hmm.

And you blame them for, even though you were the one, put your face in their burp. Uh-huh. So whose sight are we on? No. Yeah, um, yeah, I can speak to that. As it traumatized, man, I can speak to that. Yes.

Let me share my story. Actually, just listen to part two. In the intro of part two of the series, I told my tale. Trigger warning for anyone who's ever smelled someone else's burp. after they've eaten something spicy. Let me add that. Over the course of his legal career, Charles only tried one case,

and it was a disaster. During that trial, I'm sorry, I shouldn't smile, but this is kind of funny to me. It was a disaster. He jumped into the jury box. No. Yes.

You can't do that. Oh, but what about for the drama? And he put his fist right in the face of one of the jurors. And maybe he meant that to be like, dramatic and cool. That's what I'm imagining that he was like really trying to drive a point home. My client is innocent. But instead, everyone just laughed at him and they found his client guilty. They didn't even do the thing of going off into a different room to say,

do we think this guy's guilty? They were just like, this guy's guilty. The worst defense attorney we have ever seen, Your Honor. Charles was no Matlock. So he chose a different specialty. Bill collecting. Oh, the repo man, huh? You seem proud of him. You seem happy for him. Well, you know. What? He's not going to make it as a lawyer, clearly.

Actually, this was still something he was doing as a lawyer. This was like a Yeah, but it's like, you know, are you a trial attorney? Yeah, he's not defending someone for murder. Yeah, this is. Sure. Yeah, you're shoving your fists in the jury's face,

jumping into the box. Why didn't that? work. The theatrics. Man, there be a fly on the wall in that courtroom. I know. So he goes into bill collecting and Norm's happy for him and let the record reflect, okay, that Charles Gutot did in fact collect bills. Hell yeah. Problem was that instead of taking a cut of what he collected, which was what you're supposed to do. Oh, he took the whole thing. Not always, but mostly, yeah. I need a new suit, so. Yeah, and I also don't want to give this money to the the person who, boy, hmm, whoopsies. Yeah. That did eventually catch up to him. Years later, a New York newspaper wrote an article about Charles Guteau, the attorney who'd ripped off his client,

and Charles was like, what? And he sued the newspaper for libel. But that was very stupid of him, because what they'd printed was the truth. And what the newspaper had unwittingly uncovered was not an isolated incident, but in fact a pattern. And so someone else came forward. And boy, that didn't work out for Charles. Hey, honey, didn't I pay the gas bill? He's another bill here. So he comes to collect for a bill, takes their money, and just bucks off with it.

Yeah, or sometimes, I imagine a sneakier way to do it would be to give people some of the money and hope that they don't realize that they are owed more or maybe. You give them some story. I don't know. See, now I'm sounding like, you know what? Maybe I'll get into this. Sounds like quite the racket. If this podcasting thing doesn't pan out, I'm going to go into bill collecting. Yeah.

He had this pattern of ripping people off. A pattern of seeing himself as above the law. A pattern of being flexible with his expectations for his own behavior, but completely inflexible in his expectations of others. years before Charles locked in on the idea that James Garfield owed him a political appointment, he'd circled around that same concept with other politicians. Oh, boy. Okay. Yeah.

Okay. In 1872, he was certain that if Horace Greeley, who a man who has come up surprisingly often in this podcast, a man who I hadn't heard before we started this podcast, heard of, by the way. He's the editor of the New York Tribune for a long time. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But lost to Grant. That's right.

In the 1872 election. That's right, Norm. And he died between the vote. I'm, I'm. No, go ahead. No, no, no. Because didn't he die in an asylum or something? I'm not sure about that, but I know he died between the vote and then the electors, like, casting their votes, you know?

Bad timing, horse. So it's like the electors couldn't be like, well, we can't give him to horse. Really, he's dead now. You can't argue with that. He's dead. Future topic? Uh, shit, I don't know the ding. Did you take off the ding and put on the burp?

My God. All right. Future topic? Oh, no. So Charles had been convinced that if Horace Greeley won that presidential election, he, Charles Gutot, would be appointed minister to chili. Chili? Yeah.

Maybe a bowl of chili. Ha, ha, ha, ha. That idea of having a politician in his pocket had always appealed to Charles, the power, the respect. But how could he get there? How could he make it happen? The media had power. So he hatched another scheme. He wanted to own a newspaper.

But this time he decided not to start one. That's a ton of work. He wanted to buy one. Oh, there's an idea. Now how much you're willing to pay, Charles? Well, you know, he was willing to pay whatever. he just didn't have any money really. I see.

So he tried. Promise. Yeah, I'll give me a billion dollars for his newspaper. Oh, I don't have a billion dollars. Do you want to know how he did it? Yeah, let's see. Well, he didn't do it. Here's the scheme.

He tried to convince dudes with political ambitions to help him buy the newspaper on the promise that he would then use the newspaper to definitely get them elected, and then maybe they could help him. And it'd be a big, sexy cycle of power and money. and influence, and I submit that this might be one of those ideas where it's right idea wrong messenger, because even though Charles poured his heart and soul into that idea for two whole months, he couldn't quite get the idea off the ground. Ugh, damn.

Story of his life. Truly. But I mean, clearly, he knows how power works. Yeah, he doesn't have the charisma that he needs to be kind of an effective, con man really. It's like he understands the game. Yeah. But he sucks at participating in the game.

I thought about that a lot with the John Humphrey Noise guy. Mm-hmm. Of like, well, in my opinion, they're both kind of delusional douchebags, but one's successful at it. One has charisma. One clearly has social skills. Mm-hmm. But, boy, it's kind of fascinating. to me that he he does understand the concepts on almost more of an academic level but not

in a practical level yeah those who can't teach you know we've talked about this before have we butchered this saying before those who can do those who can't teach that's the insulting phrase yeah and i don't know that uh charles could have taught this either he was more kind of in the noggin for two months and then there she blew yeah eventually the the Great Chicago Fire burned Charles' law office to the ground. No, that damn cow. That was probably for the best. I mean, I'm sure.

Future topic. Great Chicago Fire. He and Annie fled to New York, where after five years of marriage, they divorced. Charles was up to his same old tricks, but he was older now, and people were kind of onto him. That's what I was talking about earlier, about, like, I think youth can cover up a lot of stuff. People are more forgiving. And yes, stuff just catches up to you after a while.

When he petered out as an attorney, he tried being a traveling evangelist. He wrote and self-published the book, The Truth, a companion to the Bible. And as I've said, I'm pretty sure he just ripped off noises writings, right? Well, if John didn't want to be the victim of plagiarism, he shouldn't have written such cool stuff. Am I right? I'm just a big fan. Also, I forgot to write this part down. But, you know, he had this book published and then he stole a bunch of copies of it, which, boy, that'd be a tough pill to swallow.

You publish a Christian book and the guy steals it all from you. Damn. You think you could trust him. Charles traveled around trying to convince people to come to his speeches and some people did. But he was such a bad public speaker. For years, he bounced around the country, unburdened by accountability, buoyed by grandiosity. People didn't understand him. And to be fair, he didn't understand himself.

Not really. But one person who always tried to understand him was his sister, Francis. She looked out for him when they were children. She cared about him. She knew something wasn't quite right with her brother. So she'd tried to help him out. Over the years, she and her husband, George, loaned him money. And I say loaned.

I think we all know that none of it was ever paid back. You're not getting that money back. They let him stay with them at their home in Wisconsin from time to time. She always had a soft spot for him and maybe told herself that he was just misunderstood. But one summer, six years before he would assassinate the president of the United States, Charles was staying at her home when she asked him to chop some firewood. He did. He chopped the firewood. But maybe he'd been resentful about being asked to do menial labor?

Because Charles didn't take the logs back to the shed where he was supposed to. He just dumped them in the walkway of the home. And, you know, Francis knew her brother. She didn't want to escalate things. So she went out. She bent down to pick up the logs herself. but just as she was there, crouched on the ground,

Charles became suddenly enraged. He grabbed the axe. He swung it high. And Francis froze for just a moment, horrified by the fury on her brother's face. She said he looked like a wild animal. And then she ran. She ran into the house, ran to safety, terrified.

That's scary. It is because I think it's one thing to feel. like, oh gosh, I know my brother has problems. I do feel like if we could just do this one thing, if we could just change these things, if he just got this kind of support. But this was the moment where Francis realized, oh, no, he might be dangerous. And whatever's happening with him, I can't be the only one helping. I need, I need help helping him. So she reached out to her doctor, she asked him to come examine Charles. And the doctor did the examination, and afterward he told Francis, I'm sorry, but your brother is insane. He needs to be in an institution. If Charles

Guto had been a woman, it would have been very easy in those days for a family member to have him put in an institution. I am not saying that's good. That's actually horrifying, but it is interesting to me, what happened next? Okay. Since he wasn't a woman, Francis prepared herself to go through the proper channels. She'd travel with him back to Chicago, where he'd go on trial, and a jury would determine whether he was insane. So a court had to determine if a man was insane? Yeah.

And I'm sure different places had different rules. But I know that for a long time, a husband, a father, a brother. brother could, I mean, you could lock away an unruly woman. And by unruly, I mean, she's annoying me. Well, I mean, it could be as simple as like, my wife doesn't enjoy housework anymore. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Or, well, she's insane. I sure would like a new wife. Yeah. Too bad this one's crazy. So that was the plan. She was going to get him that help. But I'm not sure how much Charles knew of her plan, but he must have known enough. And with his freedom under threat, he fled her house. From there, his options narrowed. By that point, his father was ashamed of him. He thought his son

was insane. Charles's brother, John, was at the end of his rope. He'd tried to help Charles out over the years, but Charles had humiliated him again and again. Worth noting, John's brother was an insurance salesman. Okay. And we know that at one point Charles did try to go into the insurance business. Right. And I wonder if John had tried to help him out in that business and Charles had... Not done so well.

Yeah. And maybe even done some damage to his own business. Sure. John got to the point that he was furious with his brother. There seemed no limit to what Charles would do. Nothing was too stupid. Nothing was too wrong. He'd do it all.

he came to the conclusion that the best case scenario was that Charles was simply insane and therefore not really responsible for his actions. He cannot be controlled. And I think what he's saying is the most charitable view I can take is that my brother is not in control of himself either. Yeah. You know? He can't help what he's doing. And that's, that would be such a tough thing to have all this empathy. and want to help someone, and then you just get to a point where you are so frustrated that it's like,

damn, I kind of hate this guy. But at the same time, he might not be in control of this. Yeah. So Charles continued to drift. But June of 1880 stopped him cold. James Garfield had gotten the Republican nomination for president. It had been unlikely, completely unforeseen. And yet it had happened. And it gave Charles Guteau a sense of hope, a sense that he too had an opportunity. It's the next Horace Greeley, James Garfield. No, Horace lost.

We're betting on a new horse here. And he died. So he seized it. Just three days after James Garfield's nomination, Charles boarded an overnight ship headed for New York. The ship was the Stonington. It held about 300 passengers. and by midnight most of them were asleep.

But Charles wasn't. He stood out on the deck, marveling at the night's sky. It was foggy that night, so foggy and so dark, as dark as tar, he later said. As the ship crept along the Long Island sound, he marveled at what he could not see. He could put his hand in front of his face and not see it.

He knew it was there, but it was completely invisible. He could look off in any direction and see nothing. He couldn't see anything, but stuff was out there. And in a way, that was how Charles had lived his life. Most people couldn't see what he envisioned for himself. In fact, no one could see it, really. But the fact that they couldn't see it didn't mean that it wasn't there. That night, the Stonington moved through dangerous conditions. It blew its foghorn every 30 seconds. as it made its way forward through the dark water and that black foggy night. And then, oh God, Charles Guteau was one of the rare people who saw the other ship before it hit. The Narragansett held 350 passengers, and it appeared out from the fog, headed full speed toward the Stonington. In an instant, the ships collided. Oh.

It was a crash and a jolt and a horrible sound of iron against iron pierced with stonings. screams, the screams of hundreds of people, asleep a moment ago, but awake now and terrified, scrambling to survive. The Narragansett got the worst of the crash. When the two ships collided, the Stonington recoiled, and when it did that, it ripped a gaping hole in the other ship. The Narragansett flooded. Its lights flickered. Its passengers. 350 men, women, and children screamed and scrambled and drowned. As the ship began to be in the ship began to be in. It's not. It's passengers. Three hundred and fifty men, women and children, and a sink, those who could climb. They climbed in pajamas and nightclothes up to the highest decks. Nearly a hundred of them made it there, terrified, gripping the ship with all their might.

And then the boiler exploded. Oh, Jesus. Fire lit up the sky. The ship, or what was left of it, was on fire. It was horrific. The people on the Narragansett had no escape, jump into the icy water, cling to the flaming ship. many burned to death many died of hypothermia and some simply drowned it was awful and the passengers on the stonington watched they watched in horror there was a hole in their own ship too there was no guarantee that they'd make it either though they were fortunate that the hole in theirs was for now above the water line the stonington crew managed to save about 50 people from the water that night. Later, another ship rescued about 200.

The exact number of people who died that night is still unknown. The Narragansett didn't have a full passenger list. Estimates put the death count between 50 and 70 people. And Charles Guto had witnessed the whole thing, start to finish. The Stonington did make it to safety, but people were traumatized. traumatized but also fortunate, fortunate to have survived? Except Charles didn't really see it that way. He didn't see himself as fortunate. He didn't see himself as lucky. No, that event was further proof that God was on his side and God had special plans for him. God wouldn't let him die out in the water

because God knew that he was destined for something else. And so Charles made his way to New York. undaunted, determined to make a name for himself in politics, determined to do it so quickly that if James Garfield won the election, he'd find himself the recipient of a well-deserved government appointment. He rented a room. He began writing, well, reworking the speech he'd originally written in support of Ulysses S. Grant. You mean he crossed out Grant's name and put Garfield's name? He did a little more work than that. Before we continue, I do want to say, I have heard of the Narragansett sinking. I had no idea Charles Gatow was a witness to that thing. Isn't that wild? Yeah. And to think that he, I mean, it was rare. He saw the entire thing because,

of course, so many people were sleeping when it happened. Yeah. Man, wild. But it was time to work on his speech, Norm. And oh, wow, it took three days of hard work, but by the end of it, he'd done it. A brilliant. speech, the best speech. It opened with shoutouts to some of the greatest hits of the Republican Party, Henry Clay, Wendell Phillips, Ulysses S. Grant. Then it praised Garfield, future president, am I right? He referred to James Garfield as a high-toned conscientious Christian gentleman. Sound like anyone else we know? Then it ended with the verbal equivalent of fireworks and confetti. You ready? Mm-hmm.

If you want prosperity and peace, make Garfield President, and the Republic will develop till it becomes the greatest and wealthiest nation on the globe. Woo! Yeah, woo! Charles knew that this would be the speech that got in places. All he had to do was start giving the speech, and people would know his name. So he went upstate. He made flyers. Charles Guteau was giving a speech.

Garfield versus Hancock. Come listen. the world. But what the hell? No one came. No one came to any of his speeches. But that wasn't his fault. People like, who the hell's Charles Gatot? An attorney from Chicago. Very prestigious. Norm, it was not his fault that people didn't come to his speeches because sometimes it was way too hot and sometimes it rained. So it was the weather's fault. Hey, Kristen. Yeah. What do you call a thousand lawyers tied to a chain at the bottom of the ocean. Oh, God, what?

A good start. Oh, geez. Yeah, I mean, this guy has illusions of grandeur, but it's like, yeah, no one knows who he is. So, of course, no one's going to come to your speech. Well, he made a hell of a flyer. What more do you need? So he was good in Photoshop, big deal. He just needed a new plan.

He needed to get in good with the right people, and he knew just where to find them. He went back to New York City. Chester A. Arthur was running as James Garfield's vice president, so Charles Guteau walked right up to Chester's place on Lexington Avenue and knocked on the door. Lexington. Yeah. Do you know who else lived on Lexington? Who? Joseph Richardson.

Oh, my gosh. The Spitehouse. Yes. Remember, folks, in 1880, this was not the part that was considered insane to just go. go up to a vice presidential candidate's door and start knocking. We all know. Chester A. Arthur's doorman told Charles Guteau that the vice presidential candidate wasn't in at the moment, so Charles went on his merry way, down but not out. He could come back any time he wanted.

Wild times back then. In next week's episode, Charles Guteau meets everyone, and they're super impressed with him, and he's very helpful with the campaign, and they don't think he's. weird at all. Wow. Chester A. Arthur lived on Lexington. Yeah. My mind is blown. That was where all the famous sexy, cool people

were living in New York City at that time. Did you find Chester A. Arthur sexy? I think he was cool. He was a cool guy. It's funny. You read stuff about people and, I mean, they talk about him being like this well-dressed sexy dude. Myself, I don't get it. I don't see it.

He's kind of a big burly man. Well, sure. Maybe it's the mutton chops. I'm just not super into them. That was sexy at the time. Okay, something to grab hold of. Norm, how are you feeling about our Charles Guteau episode? What do you think?

I mean, it's context. It's laying out for like why he did what he did. And, you know, I didn't want to be a context slut. That's your job. I know you denied it for a long time. But here I am. giving it to you. I really do think, gosh, it's, it's tough because there are, there are parts of this story that, like, okay, he goes to a free love colony, can't find anyone to bang him. That's

funny. That's just funny. Sorry, it's funny. But, oh gosh. It could be a great sitcom. Yeah, it could be a real dark comedy. Well, and it kind of was in the Death by Lightning series. They definitely, like, made light of that. I mean, you've got to have fun where you can. And this where you can't have fun. But it is, it's so complicated to me because he, he victimized so many people, but at the same time, something was off with him. Yeah, he clearly had some troubles. And I, in future episodes, we'll get more into, you know, what he might have had. Some people say, nothing was wrong with him. He was just a bad boy, which I think is something people say when they're just really mad at somebody. He was just a bad boy. I don't know. That seems really simple.

You've just been a bad boy, Charles. Now, it always makes me uncomfortable doing like the mental analysis of a historical figure. Sure. But I do think it is important. I do too. I just don't feel qualified as all. Well, don't let that stop you, Norm. You're right. This is the internet. Uh-huh.

Very good, Kristen. Thank you. Currently you are this week, Kristen. This week, Kristen. And I don't want you to speak for next week, Kristen. Oh, but I can confidently. But next week, Kristen might think that I got some stuff wrong. What do you want to know?

What do you want to know? Well, I'm just wondering what part four is going to talk about. Part four, we're going to get a little manic. I mean, Charles is going to, you know, I'm almost wanting to use his words here. His political career is going to take off. But I think we are all going to see it not quite as a career and more as a man really annoying the shit out of everybody. and everybody else trying to be polite about it until they snap at him. Yeah.

He gets a verbal spanking. Yeah. I'm familiar somewhat. But I'm not going to say anything because this is your story. Oh, thank you, Norm. Thank you. Norm, you already know this, but I do think I need to confess to the listeners that I've done a little trolling. And the trolling I did was in our own subreddit.

What did you do? Well, in the episode discussion post where we brought the social. soundboard back. We got a little complaint that we brought the soundboard back but didn't use it often enough. And so I, thinking I was quite hilarious, said, yeah, I thought Norman was really annoying in that episode, but Kristen was great. That's right, yeah. I don't think your joke was appreciated very much.

It wasn't. It wasn't. But I'm just letting people know, you know, it's one thing when we say, follow us on social media, it's another to know that I will troll you. Chris, you do troll people, I will say. No, I got, well, I don't think I do that much, although I did troll someone else again today. You troll, yeah, you trolled someone literally today about Hamilton. Yeah, so someone said that last week's episode, there were so many opportunities for Hamilton

references, and that I had even said that James Garfield was outgunned and, and outmanned. Yeah, and I had no idea that's a Hamilton reference. I did because of my obsession. And I included it because I thought it would be kind of a funny wink and nod to Hamilton. But I think this person was saying, like, you even did that unwittingly. And so I, because I'm immature, said something along the lines of, wow, we keep missing these Hamilton references. We could really use a right-hand man to be in the room where this happens to let us know in real time. Yep. Again, I'm a 40-year-old woman. Thank you all for supporting the show. We'll see what happens with that, with that comment. And I mentioned that maybe I should do a series on Alexander

Hamilton and not make a single Hamilton reference. I would fill all the gaps. Yeah, you would. Yeah, I would. Why do you sound so disappointed about that? I'm just saying it would drive people crazy. if I did a series on Alexander Hamilton and did not make a single Hamilton reference. Norm, I'm telling you, people think that you interrupted me a lot in last week's episode. I'd be singing through yours.

And I would not be enrauded. Listen, I remember in the Let's Go to Court episode when I tried to talk about the Boston Massacre and I kept getting interrupted nonstop with Hamilton references. I'm sorry, I'm so cool. I'm sorry that I enjoy musicals. and you are a weirdo who does not.

I do not enjoy musicals. I'm sorry. Well, on that terrible note, why don't we wrap this up? Let's wrap it up. Kristen, you know what they say about history, as we always cite our sources. That's right. For this episode, I got my information from The Book, Destiny of the Republic, a tale of madness, medicine, and the murder of a president by Candace Millard.

The book, Dark Horse, the surprise election and political murder of President James A. Garfield by Kenne. at the D. Ackerman, plus reporting from PBS and the New York Times. Check the show notes for a full list of our sources. That's all for this episode. Thank you for listening to an old-timey podcast. Please give us a five-star review wherever you listen to podcasts. And while you're at it, subscribe. Support us on Patreon at patreon.com slash old-timey podcast.

Join the Reddit community, R.S. Old-timey podcast. Follow us on Facebook and YouTube and Instagram at Old Timey Podcast. You can also follow us individually on Instagram. I'm at Kristen Pitts-Karuso, and he's at Gaming Historian. And until next time, Tudaloo, Tata, and Cheerio. Bye. Bye. See ya.

See ya.