An Old Timey Podcast - 95: The Trial of Charles Guiteau (Finale)

Episode Date: March 18, 2026

As his trial drew closer, Charles Guiteau became more delusional. He wrote demanding letters to the new president, Chester A. Arthur. He announced plans to run for president himself. He got the word out that he was looking for love — the love of a wealthy, Christian woman under 30, that is! He wasn’t worried about what the future held. He was certain that, if he did go on trial for murder, he’d be surrounded by the country’s best criminal defense attorneys. That didn’t happen. Instead, his long-suffering brother-in-law, Charles Scoville, stepped in. Charles Scoville was a patent attorney from Illinois. He knew he might not be able to stop the government from giving an insane man the death penalty, but he’d sure as hell try.Remember, kids, history hoes always cite their sources! For this episode, Kristin pulled from: The book, “Destiny of the Republic: A Tale of Madness, Medicine, and the Murder of a President,” by Candice MillardThe book, “Dark Horse: The Surprise Election and Political Murder of President James A. Garfield,” by Kenneth D. Ackerman“Murder of a President” documentary and additional resources from PBS.org“‘As a Matter of Fact, I Presume I Shall Live to be President’”: A Brief Biographical Sketch of Garfield’s Assassin” from the National Park ServiceThe Federal Judicial Center document, “United States v. Guiteau: Assassination and Insanity in Gilded Age America,” by Winston Bowman for the Federal Judicial CenterThe article, “The Trial of Charles Guiteau,” by Douglas O. Linder for Famous-trials.com Are you enjoying An Old Timey Podcast? Then please leave us a 5-star rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts!Are you *really* enjoying An Old Timey Podcast? Well, calm down, history ho! You can get more of us on Patreon at patreon.com/oldtimeypodcast. At the $5 level, you’ll get a monthly bonus episode (with video!), access to our 90’s style chat room, plus the entire back catalog of bonus episodes from Kristin’s previous podcast, Let’s Go To Court.

Hear ye, hear ye. You are listening to an old-timey podcast. I'm Kristen Caruso. And I'm Norman Caruso. And on this episode, Charles Guteau goes on trial. Oh, is this the finale, Kristen? It is the finale. Dun-da-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun. Oh my gosh. I just have to say this has been a wonderful series. Congratulations on reaching the finish line. Thank you. And you know what?

I'm going to use this accomplishment to plug our Patreon. If you enjoyed this fantastic series on James Garfield, maybe you should show us some love by signing up for our Patreon at patreon.com slash old-timey podcast. For just $5 a month, you get access to our entire bonus episode catalog with full video. Kristen Pop Quiz. How many other podcasts are doing that? Zero. None.

So please consider supporting this small, sexy, independent, podcast over at patreon.com slash old-timey podcast. Thank you very much. And Kristen, the floor is yours. Thank you. First of all, thank you for singing my praises because we are coming to the finish line. Norm, you coined a new term last week. It's a term for us, but I'm sharing it with the history hose.

We're calling it the series scaries. And that's when you're doing a series and you're like, is anyone still listening? Does anyone still care? But you can't stop because that'd be weird. I definitely had the series Scaries. She did. Thank you all for sticking with this series. This entire story has just fascinated me for years, and it has been so fun, also gross and sad, but also fun, to tell it.

And so I'm excited to wrap it up today, though. Yeah, well, you wanted to do it justice, and your passion shows through, what's the phrase for that? I don't even know what you're trying to say. my passion flows through me. No, I'm saying like... Puss in a wound that has been touched by filthy hands. I'm saying your presentation of the story, your passion shines through.

Oh, thank you. That's what I'm trying to say. So, this is the episode I am excited about because this guy's a whack-a-doodle. Yeah. And I can't wait to hear about a trial, because this is the one part of this story because I really don't know much about.

I know you've been nagging me to stop talking during your story, even though I do have some defenders out there. Thank you very much. No one defended you. I've looked. No. No. A few people have said, I'm a good boy,

and that they appreciate all the context and commentary. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. But, yeah, Charles Goodtow's trial really don't know much about. And I do want to talk about why we don't know a lot about that later. Okay. But for now, cue up that previously on music. Music.

You know what I mean. You have to sing it. I'm going to sing it. Previously on an ultimate podcast. In the aftermath of the shooting, President James Garfield found himself surrounded by doctors, doctors who were hell-bent on retrieving the bullet from his body. Those doctors didn't believe in the silly theory coming out of Europe about those invisible mythical demons called germs. So, using unsanitized instruments and unwashed fingers, they dug into

the president's bullet wound. The lead doctor, Dr. Dr. Willard Bliss, and no, I did not stutter. That was Kristen's fourth take, by the way. It was. Oh, the irony knew that the bullet was in the right side of the president's body. It had definitely hit the liver. For the next 79 days, Dr. Bliss probed the area daily, always searching for that bullet. The examinations were painful and ultimately deadly. On the day of the shooting, 49-year-old James Garfield had been in near-perfect health. When he died months later, his skeletal body was riddled with infection. James Garfield left behind his wife, Lucretia, and their five children. He left behind a bewildered, ill-prepared vice-president and a grieving, angry country.

The American people had followed James Garfield's struggle to survive all summer, and they'd also followed the story of the man who'd shot him. Charles Guteau was an infuriating and, yes, fascinating character. Some said he was insane. Others thought he was an entitled, money-hungry office seeker, one who'd been driven by the promises of the spoils system and the angry rantings of, ahem, former New York Senator Roscoe Conkling, and his henchman, Vice President, Chester Arthur.

That summer, Americans learned all about Charles Goteau's preparations prior to the shooting. He'd written letters explaining himself that this had been God's plan, not his. He'd revised his self-published, mostly plagiarized book, The Truth, a companion to the Bible. Charles was sure that, once he assassinated the president, his book would become a bestseller.

He'd receive a pardon from the new president, Chester Arthur. In short, he'd become an American hero. In this week's episode, the autopsy results come in. Charles Guteau goes on trial, and the people at the center of this story move forward. But first, last week's episode involved a lot of suffering and a surprising amount of pus. You might be asking yourself, what was Charles Gattot doing while the president withered away? Well, I'll tell you. We were up to our eyeballs in pus last week.

Oh, my gosh. It's terrible. It's terrible what happened to him. Yeah, I mean, someone commented, I didn't know the body could have that much pus. Yeah, it turns out if you, you know, eat a bag of flaming hot Cheetos and then dig around in somebody's body, they're going to be, I'm just guessing that's what the doctors were eating. Yeah. We can't rule it out. Dr. Dr. Bliss was eating chicken wings at the train station when he was summoned. In the aftermath of the shooting, Charles Gatot had been captured by police officers.

A crowd of angry onlookers demanded that he be lynched, but the officers rushed him away to nearby police headquarters. In fact, they moved so quickly that when they arrived at police headquarters and searched him, they were stunned to discover that Charles Gatot was still carrying a loaded gun. Oh. Yeah. That's what they said. I mean, is it surprising because they should have disarmed him when they arrested him? Is that the surprise there?

Well, yeah. Yeah. That seems like a good thing to do. You would think. You would think. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say, when you arrest somebody, you should search them for weapons. Norm, you really missed your call. I know, right?

From there, a detective took Charles to the district jail. By that point, Charles wasn't nervous anymore. He was confident. He'd pulled off his plan. He'd done what he... I mean, God wanted him to do. Well, and William Sherman's coming with the army. Duh, any minute now.

Chip-chop, General. Charles talked to the bewildered detective as though the two of them were in cahoots. He said, you stick to me and have me put in the third-story front of the jail. General Sherman is coming down to take charge. Arthur and all those men are my friends, and I'll have you made chief of police. Oh, that's a sweet deal. Can you imagine hearing this? Especially after he just shot the president.

Good Lord. When they arrived at the district jail, the warden was surprised to recognize their new prisoner as the dude who'd come by a week earlier asking for a tour. Yeah, he wanted the tour. They searched Charles again. No gun this time. They did it right that first time. Yep. Good.

They questioned him. They placed him in a cell. And as soon as he got comfortable, Charles happily wrote a letter to the soon-to-be president, Chester Arthur. Oh, boy. Can't wait to hear this. In it, he reminded Chester that he had him to thank for being president. Yeah.

Yeah, I did you a favor, Chester. Well, obviously, he understood that Chester would need to select new cabinet members, so Charles quite helpfully told Chester who to pick for each position. What can I say? Yeah. Blessings all around. Oh, it was pretty awesome.

As the president wasted away, Charles Gatot packed on the pounds. He loved that prison food. Well, I mean, he had no money. He probably didn't eat much outside of jail. So it's funny, that's one of those details that always gets included everywhere. I think because it makes people so mad. know, James Garfield lost 80 pounds as he just withered away. Charles Goodtoe put on 10 pounds.

I'm with you. You know, part of the reason that that acquaintance gave him the $15 that he later spent on the gun was because Charles looked so hungry. Yeah. He was not doing well. Yeah. But he was genuinely complimentary about the prison food. He was pretty pleased with it. He enjoyed that gruel.

He sure did. He was no doubt. out thrilled to see that his letter to General William to comes as Sherman, commander of the army, had paid off sort of. Oh, did William Sherman say, release the prisoner? Not quite. Okay, so he did ask the general to release him from jail, you know, do a guy a favor here. And you know. Can I guess?

Sure. William Sherman shows up with the army. Okay. The whole army? No, a detachment. They are guarding the jail. because they don't want him. Because he's a hero, because they say,

leave this hero alone. That's what they're going to tell Charles. Why would they tell Charles? No, it's to like make sure he doesn't escape and to make sure no one comes in and tries to kill him because they want justice. Yeah. You're exactly right.

General Sherman sent soldiers to guard the jail because there was fear of a lynch mob. Yeah. And, you know, this is America. We've got some rules. We don't always follow them, have them and we like to say you've got a right to a trial innocent until proven guilty even though you wrote all the letters saying yes i did it and what can i say except you're welcome

well and you want to talk about an american tradition sadly a lynch mob yikes yeah future topic lynch mobs in general or you get a zero in on one good grief let's ax that okay The jail cell proved to be a fertile place for Charles Gatot's wild imagination. He was a hero now. He was on the verge of becoming very, very rich. Assassinating the president would be his best money-making scheme to date. He'd sell the suit he wore when he fired those shots. He'd sell the gun.

His book would fly off the shelves. Norm, play some Abba. Oh, yeah. Rich man's world. Yeah, can you turn up that music? You're killing me here. No, because then the mics might pick it up. Some of us like to rock out to Abba and Moana, okay?

We're just really cool. When he was inevitably released on bail, he'd go on a very lucrative speaking tour. Oh, he thinks he's getting bail. He knows he's getting bail. My God, Norm, whose sight are you on? He didn't have to worry about going on trial because, first of all, Chester Arthur would never allow that to happen, okay? So relax. And also, the American people definitely didn't want him to face any kind of penalty for this heroic thing he'd done. Yeah. Did I mention that he wasn't

allowed to read newspapers in jail? Hmm. Because, you know, they don't want to spoil the surprise for him. Yes, that's exactly right. That really aggravated Charles. He wanted to read all the praise he was definitely getting. Yeah. A ton of journalists had come to. to interview him in jail. He wanted to bask in the spotlight of their glowing coverage. Of course, the reality was that the vast majority of Americans wanted him dead. The journalist who, I'm sorry, everyone, Norm just did the weirdest stretch right in front of me. It was oddly aggressive.

I'm sorry. I felt like maybe you were going to attack. You know, got to stretch the old back. All right, all right. Feeling good. The journalists who interviewed him were disgusted by him, disgusted by his delusion, by his self-satisfaction, while the newly elected president lay dying. In one particularly egregious interview, Charles spoke to a reporter from the New York Herald. By that point, he decided that his book, The Truth, simply would not be enough for people.

People would surely be interested in his autobiography. Oh. I have a question. Does is Charles Gatot kept updated about James Garfield's status? Hell no. Okay. Hell no. Does he think he's dead?

I don't think he thought he was dead. Okay. Because then he would have been charged with murder as opposed to attempted murder, you know. And plus there's some information that you just can't keep from somebody. And something like the president died, that's something that would get to him. And we'll get to him. know if like when these reporters came in they were just Charles was like hey

what's what's going on Mr. Garfield you know if the reporters were like well he's not doing well yeah I mean they they might have told him that yeah but I don't think they were very chummy with this guy they were all pretty grossed out yeah I would imagine

well okay can I make some commentary is that okay I don't know can you this is the first time the assassin has been captured of the president. Oh, yeah, because that one guy shot John Wilkes Booth. John Wilkes Booth died in a barn or on a porch or whatever. But, yeah, Charles Goteau was captured.

And so this is kind of a new thing, you know? Yeah. Unprecedented. Precedented. Unprecedented. And Norm, it sounds like you're interested in his autobiography. You know, I read the truth. Uh-huh.

It was very good. Uh-huh. Gonna recommend it to everyone out there. Especially you're a big fan of the Bible. This is a companion piece. The Bible ain't got shit on the truth. Let me tell you. So, yeah, I would love to read his autobiography.

Well, you're in luck. I can summarize it for you here. He talked at length about his accomplishments. He was an attorney, a theologian, a good Christian gentleman. And hold on to your pants. he made a wild announcement. Oh. One, he was certain, would be greeted with a lot of enthusiasm.

An announcement? An announcement? A announcement? In his autobiography? Yeah. I feel like it's a delayed announcement. Well, I mean, this is being printed in installments in the New York Herald. I'm sure he has a whole vision for the thing that you're just not quite getting.

Okay. Let's hear it. What do you think the announcement is going to be, Norm? He will accept his position as the consul of France. I'm excited to accept. Dream bigger. I accept the pardon from Chester Arthur. Dream even bigger. I accept the vice presidency.

Bigger. I accept the presidency. Yeah, so he announced he was running for president. In fact, don't you want me? In fact, he'd been thinking about it for like 20 years. So you're welcome, everyone. He's going to run for president. In 1884?

Yeah, he'll wait it out. Okay. He doesn't want to steal it from his good pal Chester. Well. that'd be ridiculous. He's like, shucks. Well, I guess I have to assassinate Chester Arthur next. Just goes down the line.

That's the only logical explanation. Somehow he becomes the president. No, he actually said he wanted to be elected much in the same way that Abraham Lincoln and James Garfield had been elected. So, boy, oh boy, isn't that infuriating. Yeah, yeah. Good luck to him.

Like any decent pageant. Queen, Charles Gatot shared his vision for the country, saying that as president, he would, quote, unify the entire American people and make them happy, prosperous, and God-fearing. That is very generic and nothing. Oh, I'm sorry, you don't want to be happy, prosperous, God-fearing? What the hell's wrong with you? Promises and empty words. I think they're surprisingly sweet words from the guy who just shot a man in cold blood in front of his children.

Mm-hmm. True. Norm, I know what you're thinking. You're thinking, how is this guy still single? Well, don't worry. He won't be single for long, not if he can help it. In that interview, 39-year-old Charles told the reporter, quote, I am looking for a wife and see no objection to mentioning it here. I want an elegant Christian lady of wealth, under 30, belonging to a first-class family.

Under 30. Any such lady can address me in the utmost confidence. Don't worry, ladies. I know you're not feeling confident enough to approach Charles Gatot, but as long as you're under 30, you're wealthy Christian and belonging to a first-class family, he'll welcome you with open arms. You know, the ladies are probably a little intimidated to be flirting with a presidential assassin. God. And future president.

And future presidential candidate, Charles Gatow. Big to make that leap from presidential assassin to president a couple years later, but he's going to do it and he needs the right young lady by his side. He does. Behind every great man. Oh, God. I'm going to launch you out of a cannon. Don't even finish that. This might be the most frustrated Kristen has ever been with me in a series.

She has a baseball bat over by her side of the room. I don't know what that's for. I think the saying is behind every great man. is a woman with a baseball bat. That's right. That's it. That's it. Do you remember the time that one dude said that to me, and he meant it as the utmost compliment?

Hmm. Was that when you went to a convention with me? No, it was during a business meeting. Oh, God. It sure was. I guess I don't recall it completely. I have it etched into my brain. Man.

So, yeah, we were on a call and someone... No, it was face-to-face. Oh, it was face-to-face. What was that for? Well, I can't give you the details now, then everyone's going to know. Well, why am I protecting misogyny? Because it's within me. That's real power right there.

When a photographer came to take his picture, Charles was very concerned about looking good. And I don't think we should make fun of him for this because I relate. He did not want to look awkward in that photo. Yeah. You know, something Kristen has in common with the presidential assassin. Got to look good in a photo. Because honestly, what could be worse than looking awkward in a photo? Murdering an innocent man?

Sure, okay, you got me. Well, he wasn't innocent, Christian. Oh, that's right. He was a bad guy who didn't give out the correct political appointments. He had to go. He was screwing up. After the photographer took his photo, Charles inquired about a royalty fee because, you know, Rich man's world.

He wants a royalty fee? Yeah. take the photo. Does he know how this works? It's of him. Give me a break. Wow. Did he pay the photographer? Do he hire the photographer? Is this just some photographer from the newspaper? Well, Norm, you know, he certainly could have. I mean, with the money, he's got coming to him. Okay. I don't know if you've listened to Abba at all recently, but he's got money coming. Okay. Okay. As the days turned to weeks and the weeks into months, delusion kept Charles going.

Did people love him or did they just like him? Those were the only two options. Right. It was no doubt a shock one day in September when Charles was looking out the window of his jail cell. And one of the soldiers who was guarding the jail whipped around, drew his gun and shot at him. For real? For real. The bullet missed his head by an inch.

Oh, man. Can you imagine if that had happened? What do you think would have happened? What do you think would have happened? Oh, gosh. Well, the soldier would have been reprimanded, but that's probably about it. Oh, I think you're wrong. General William Tecumseh Sherman had gone to great lengths by this point to convince the American people, or at least try to, that we needed to follow proper procedures.

We needed to let James Garfield's assassin go on trial. So this looked pretty bad because here was one of the guards, one of the generalsmen, attempting to take justice into his own hands. And when questioned, that dude was like... The soldier? Yeah. He did not apologize. I can't remember his exact quote, but he was basically like, yeah, the president is dying. it's my job to go protect this guy, and I'm sick of it.

I'm sick of it. You know, the guy that shot John Wilkes Booth was not supposed to shoot him either. They were supposed to take Booth alive. Right. Yeah. Boston Corbett, I think his name was. He became a hero, Kristen. I mean, yeah.

They said, hey, Boston, you're not allowed to do that. Did he face any repercussions? Do you know? I don't think so. Okay, this guy did. he was sentenced to eight years of hard labor. Oh. But hold on.

If you're wondering how the American people felt about what he did. Oh, I bet they were like, you're a hero brother, we're rooting for you. They're writing letters to the governor or whatever state he's in. He needs to be pardoned. They started up an old-time ego fund me for him and his family. Yes. Yeah.

Yep, I bet. When James Garfield died a few weeks later, after 79 days of suffering, the country went into mourning. They'd been hopeful that he might survive, hopeful that he'd pull through stronger than ever. And many of them believed that he might, largely because the president's self-appointed doctor, Dr. Willard Bill. God. One more time, Kristen. You know what?

You can tell when I rehearse, I don't read it out loud. because I would have noticed, I'm thinking I'm being cute by including the doctor, doctor, but I can't pull it off. Much like Charles Gatot, I'm trying to look cute in the photo, not pulling it off. Self-appointed doctor, Dr. Dr. Willard Bliss had issued so many optimistic, largely inaccurate reports on the president's health. Of course, anyone who saw the president in his final days knew that he was close to death. as medical team certainly knew what was coming.

They'd spent so much time searching for that bullet. They'd probed his wound, not once stopping to wash their hands or sanitize their tools. The care they gave to the president fell short of what was standard, even in 1881 America. But Dr. Bliss didn't see it that way. In his mind, he'd been working hard. He'd done everything the right way. Hey, can you show him some respect and call him by his actual, you know, he earned that doctor. Well, he earned one of the doctors. He was given the other one at birth, and I think he should have had one of them taken away, frankly.

So which one are you, when you say Dr. Bliss, are you just calling him by his name or are you using the title? We need to know. You decide. The autopsy revealed that he, that they hadn't done the right thing. A doctor from the Army Medical Museum conducted the autopsy alongside a local doctor and six of James Garfield's original doctors, including, of course, Dr. Bliss. The autopsy revealed that, in fact, the bullet hadn't traveled into the right side of the body. It had not pierced the president's liver. Instead, it had gone to the left. In the process, it had destroyed two of his ribs.

It had landed behind the pancreas, where over time his body had safely encapsulated the bullet in a cyst. Yep. That side of the president's body was fine. Isn't it amazing what the body can do? It really is. Yeah, it made like a little biodome around the bullet. No Polly Shore, though. Unfortunately, yeah.

We wish he was there. And tragically, he was not. And Dr. Dr. Bliss, I hope he felt. a little stupid when they did the autopsy. Did you feel any shame? It's interesting you ask that. Let me finish this part up here, and then I want to talk about that, because I took something out of the script that now I feel like I shouldn't have

because you're kind of asking about it. I apologize for asking questions. Thank you. And providing commentary. The side of his body, where doctors had probed and prodded and dug for the bullet, was riddled with long. pockets of pus. The bullet hadn't killed the president. In fact, if they'd just left him alone, if they'd just treated his pain and kept him comfortable, he likely would have recovered.

It was the sepsis, the infection, the subsequent pneumonia that did far more damage than the bullet. As for that last final pain, the president experienced before he died, the one that made him cry out in the night? That had happened because as the infections worsened, his heart worked harder. Too hard. He died from a hemorrhage in his spleenic artery. Joe Stanley Brown, the president's 23-year-old private secretary, attended the autopsy. He was the only person there who wasn't a doctor. He'd agreed to be present as a favor to the Garfield family. They probably wanted it in like an unbiased. opinion. They wanted someone who would give it to them straight. Right. Yeah. And they also wanted

to not have to be there themselves, understandably. As the grim four-hour procedure concluded, the doctors became more and more somber as reality set in. They'd been wrong. So very, very wrong. Okay. So you asked if there was embarrassment. Yes. That's tough. I mean, once word got out, of course, a lot of well-founded criticism rolled in. People who were like, we can't believe that this is the treatment you gave the president. This is so obviously wrong. And of course, there's no denying that Dr. Bliss did the wrong thing from the jump. And people got really, really mad when he went to Congress and demanded the equivalent of roughly half a million dollars. for the treatment that he gave the president.

Yeah. Wow. So half a million dollars to kill the president. Essentially, yeah. Like a hit man. I think it's tough because, ironically, of course, this man didn't want to kill the president. No.

He wanted this to be the highlight of his career. He wanted to save the president and be a hero and, you know, enjoy all those accolades. But he just, he didn't have the skills at all. Well, and he wasn't humble enough to get advice and help from other doctors. You mean, even Dr. Charles Purvis at the scene and the train station was like, dude, stop. Stop doing that. Even like the family doctor was like, oh, let me look at him.

I've been his family doctor for years. And Dr. Bliss was like, nope, I got this. Right. Right. sucks. It's awful. Yeah. And you call yourself a doctor, doctor.

That was stupid, stupid. As critiques poured in about the medical treatment that James Garfield had received, or more accurately, suffered through, one man reluctantly took center stage. On the night that James Garfield died, Vice President Chester Arthur had been at home at his brownstone in New York. Lexington Avenue. Norm, I have the exact address.

Oh, are you ready? Yep. I want to know how close it is to the Spite House. I know you do. And it almost sounds like a Sesame Street address. One, two, three, Lexington Avenue, New York. One, two, three. One, three, I know.

That's like the address you give to the scam caller. He was like right down to him. Yes, my name is John Doe, and I live at one, two, three, Lexington Avenue. Okay. So he was pretty far from the Spite House. About like 50 blocks, but... What? It's a...

It's a rice and bean store now. It sure is. Hmm. I can't believe that's not like a... There's no plaque? Where's the plaque? That's what I'm wondering. Surely there's got to be a plaque.

One, two, three, Lexington. Well, maybe this is a new building, too. This is brick. You're telling me they didn't have brick in 1881? But you said he lived in a brownstone. Oh, but isn't, I thought a brownstone was more of a vibe. Chris, it's the literal material. Well, wait a minute, wait a minute.

No, you are full of shit. No, okay, well, we're both kind of right. So brownstones are primarily made of brick, but they have a brown sandstone facade. Mm-hmm. But the facade's gone from here. So maybe the facade just fell off. The way you said facade. The facade.

There's no plaque on this rice and bean store? This is an outrage. Man. Okay. It should say rice, beans, and Chester A. Arthur's former residence. Yes. They have a website, spice and sweet.com and rice and bean.com. That's a valuable domain name.

You know, okay, are we going to get a promo from them? Because I think we deserve it. You know what? If you go to this store, shout OTP. get checkout and ask for 10% off. You'll get 10% off your beans and spices. Okay, so he's becoming the president. It was almost midnight when he got the news.

Though he knew it was coming, Chester held out hope that it wasn't true, that James Garfield hadn't actually died. The past few months had been hard on Chester. He'd learned a lot about what people actually thought of him. He'd always known that he didn't deserve to be vice president. He'd never held elected office. He was vice president simply because the leadership of the Republican Party had been trying to appease the spoil system boys.

He'd accepted the vice presidential nomination because it was an honor. As vice president, he'd get his name out there. He'd be important. And he probably wouldn't actually have to do too much. He'd always thought that people liked him. He was charming. He was a snappy, dresser? He was a good time.

He's jolly looking. He really is. Yeah. But the second that James Garfield got shot, everyone, including Chester's friends, had begun to mourn not just the looming death of the current president,

but the dreaded thought of their next accidental president. President Chester Arthur. What a joke. In the eyes of most people, Chester wasn't. just unqualified.

He was that terrifying combination of dumb and dangerous, dangerous because he was nothing more than Roscoe Conkling's henchman. And everyone hated Roscoe Conkling. Oh, yeah. I didn't even think about that. Really? Well, I didn't think about that like, yeah, everyone freaking hates Roscoe Conklin. And Chester Arthur is like guilty by association because it's like,

Yeah, you're like his best buddy, so you suck too. Association almost feels like too weak a word because essentially everything Chester has, he owes to Roscoe Conkling. Yeah, you're right. That feedback had been tough on Chester. It caused him to reflect on his own actions. He began to avoid Roscoe Conkling. And as the president's health failed, he deeply dreaded the idea that he was ascending to a position that he had no real right to attain. And yet, what could he do? What could he do

besides try to do better? What could he do besides try to disappoint people's fears? Within just a few hours of learning that the president had passed, Chester Arthur stood in his parlor, where a rag-tag group had assembled to swear him in as the nation's 21st president. At 2.15 in the morning, still grieving and bewildered. He took the oath of office. And then he did something that no other president before him had done. He added the words. So help me God.

Oh. Yeah. He was the first president to say that? He was. That's, well, one, I didn't know that. Yeah. And two, it makes complete sense. It does, doesn't it?

He was the first to say that. Because, one, he was the first to say that. Because, one, he was. extremely unqualified to be president. Yeah, and he knew it, yep. And he was becoming president under the worst possible circumstances. And I think he understood that almost no one trusted him. Almost no one trusted his judgment.

Yeah. And those words so help me, God. I don't think you even necessarily have to be a religious person to take comfort in the idea that, okay, this person is looking to something or someone bigger. than themselves. They understand the importance of what they've been thrown into here. And they're humble enough to admit it. Yeah. And you know what? That served him well in his presidency. Yeah. The next day, he took the oath of office in a public ceremony in Washington, D.C. He led the nation as it mourned President Garfield. James Garfield, that dark horse candidate who'd been a

elected by people who believed in him, who believed in his story. He'd been a reader, an intellectual, a leader, a tough guy, and a bit of a goofball. He'd cared deeply about civil rights. He'd had a vision for uniting the country the right way, not through spineless concessions to angry former Confederates, but through education for all, understanding for all, through protection for black people, protection for black voters. But that vision, that dream, that possibility had been cut short. And for what? The man who so many people could relate to. The last president it would turn out to have been born in a log cabin, a president raised by a single mother who'd risen against all odds from childhood poverty to the highest position in the land had been struck down. struck down after less than 200 days in office. It was an unimaginable blow to the people who'd found so much hope in his story.

More than 100,000 people stood in line to pay their respects as he lay in state in the capital. And in that time, the mood of the nation shifted. People softened toward Chester Arthur. They seemed determined to, at the very least, give him a chance. but they hadn't softened toward Charles Gatot Hell no His autobiography sucks

That was perhaps understandable After he found out that James Garfield had finally died Charles wrote a letter to the new president In it Charles reminded Chester That he had him to thank for his new position Oh my God Yep

Oh, he mentioned the pay bump that Chester would receive as president, writing, quote, I presume you appreciate it raises you from $8,000 to $50,000 a year. Money, money, money. Oh, I was meaning to cue up your welcome, but hey, this works too. Just a mashup would be great. Charles, you know he was the customs collector in New York, right? That was way more lucrative than being the.

vice president or president. That's your comeback? Well, I'm just saying, well, why am I speaking logic to Charles Gertel? I'm already rich, okay? I will, just the fact that he thinks this letter is even going to reach the president. You think Chester Arthur read these? I'm sure he heard about him. So now he's waiting for the pardon.

Yeah. Okay, I accept the pardon whenever you're ready. You can go ahead. spend some of that money I gave you, but then you need to come on down, get me out of here, buddy. In the wake of James Garfield's death, people were more than ready for Charles Gatot to face justice. Or, to put it more accurately, they were ready for Charles Gatot to hang. Because there was fear that he might get away with it, fear that he might successfully use the insanity defense. Or as it was often called, the insanity dodge.

People were skeptical about it. In fact, James Garfield himself had once spoken out about it, saying that if the standard for insanity wasn't tightly defined by the courts, then, quote, all that a man would need to secure immunity from murder would be to tear his hair and rave a little. And I have a feeling I know his defense will be at trial. What's his defense going to be? So, obviously, I think he'll try insanity. Sure. But I think his other defense will be, well, I didn't kill James Garfield. The doctors killed James Garfield.

Is he wrong? No, but he's the one that caused the doctors to kill James Garfield. He put the bullet in him. He didn't hold a gun to the doctor's head and say, hey, stick your finger in there. No, but the doctors did what they thought was right, you know. In 1881, the American court system largely relied on the McNaughton rule. Under that rule, a person could be found not guilty by reason of insanity if they either did not understand what they were doing when they committed the crime or they did not know that what they were doing was wrong. Well, that's not going to hold up with Charles Gatot.

He confessed about it multiple times and was very proud of what he had done. True. Therefore, he's not insane. That's right. Under this doctrine. Yeah. By the way, if anyone has any criticism about how I sign. summarize that law, you should maybe go shit in a hat because 15 years ago, I attended an entire semester of law school. Oh. Yeah.

Oh. Wow. Go ahead and do your welcome for me, please. Yeah. Yeah, that's basically free law advice. Okay. Even back then, a lot of people saw a major flaw with the McNaughton rule. The McNaughton rule was only about what a defendant knew.

Did they know it was wrong? Did they know what they were doing? But I think anyone with even a touch of mental illness can testify that one may know that watching five hours of kitchen nightmares might worsen their mental state. But the knowing doesn't necessarily stop the doing, does it, Norm? Because hear me out. Wait a minute. The impulse to watch Gordon Ramsey scream at people might be an irresistible one. I don't appreciate you insulting me on this podcast.

No, no, no. I am. Just because I like to bed rot and watch kitchen nightmares. In fact, by 1881, a lot of courts began instructing juries that a person might be found not guilty by reason of insanity. McNot guilty. That's cute. I hate that I laughed at that. That was so dumb.

That a person might be found not guilty by reason of insanity. Shut up. We find the defendant, Mick not guilty. And all the jurors kind of smile because they're cute. Yeah, no it. Not based solely on what they knew to be right or wrong, but also perhaps because they were driven to do that awful thing because of an irresistible impulse.

I hope people stuck with what I was trying to say there as you so rudely and cutely interrupted. I suppose that was an irresistible impulse of yours. That's right. But not all courts agreed about the irresistible impulse thing. Time would tell whether a jury would be asked to consider whether Charles Gatot had been operating under an irresistible impulse to assassinate the president. And truth be told, most people weren't interested in Charles Gatot's background or his mental state. He was evil. He needed to pay, to pay with his life.

Yep, that's the attitude for sure. Interestingly, as his day in court grew close, he was. there was one group that was really hoping that he would be deemed insane. It was the spoils system boys, aka the stalwarts. They were very worried, not because they gave a shit about anyone's mental health, but because in the wake of the shooting, people had become much more critical of the spoils system. Yes, I bet they were. Yeah.

There was this idea taking root that if it hadn't been, for the spoils system, Charles Gatot would have never felt entitled to a political position, and he would have never felt driven to kill. That is a fair assessment. So maybe the spoil system needed to go. And of course, the spoil system boys were like, what? No way, there's nothing wrong with the spoil system. That too is just crazy.

There's a great political cartoon of Gatot, holding a little document with a big old pistol, and it's like a constant. ship or your life or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. Do you agree with this? That the spoil system was the reason? Yeah.

I think it played a massive part in him wanting to kill the president. Well, sure, but I mean, that's not the thing. Hmm? What do you mean that's not the thing? That's not the reason he did it. Of course it is. It's a major reason why he did. Norman, are you serious?

Kristen. Do you know how many people? expected political positions and didn't get them and we're really mad about it? Yeah, but well, hmm. Are we about to get into a spicy argument? Get your beans and rice ready, folks. We're going to one, two, three, Lexington Avenue. Maybe I, it's because I don't like the spoil system, so.

Well, I don't like it either. I see what you're saying, though, because, yes, it had been around a while. Plenty of people had been denied positions. no one had tried to kill the president over it until Charles Cateau. So I understand what you're saying. But I also understand these people that are like, hey, this spoil system sucks. Look at what happens when you have a system like this. I understand two things can be true.

Well, I mean, look at what happens when you have a system like this. That's nuts. That's not right. If this is the natural consequence of having a system like this, then the president would have been shot every time. Bing, bang, boom. It's not an all-or-nothing thing, but it's like if you have a system like this,

it can lead to something like this happening. Hmm. Norman and I will be somehow the 12 angry men on this jury. I don't think there's going to be a heated debate about what to do about Charles Gatot. I think he's going to be found guilty and killed. In truth, the only people Charles Gatot really have. had in his corner were his sister Francis and his brother John. Years earlier, Francis had had

Charles evaluated by a doctor. The doctor had said that Charles needed to be put into an institution, but Charles had fled before Francis could get him that help. His brother John had tried to help Charles out over the years, but had eventually become so exasperated that he decided that the only logical explanation for Charles' actions was that he was insane. neither of them wanted to see their brother put to death they knew in their hearts that charles was not sane he had never been sane yes their brother had done a terrible thing but it wasn't as simple as people made it out to be charles needed help they feared that their brother wouldn't get a fair trial they feared that the need to avenge the president's death would override the very obvious fact that they would little brother was unwell. But who would defend Charles Gatot at trial? Who would stand between their brother and the death penalty? Well, Charles is a lawyer. He can represent himself. That is very true. Charles actually wasn't particularly worried about that question, Norm, for that

reason. But he was also not worried because he was certain that the best lawyers in the country would reach out to him very soon. He was sure that they would all be eager to defend an American hero. Now, I don't know about a lawyer reaching out because they want to defend an American hero. But I do think a lawyer would reach out because it is a very important trial. And it could give you some name recognition. So I think that is a more modern take. Really?

I think nowadays, and I think even probably by like maybe the 1920s, you know, you had Clarence Darrow. He was taking on these really unpopular cases. Leopold and Loeb. And really making a name for himself. That wasn't really a thing back in 1881. Yeah. Okay. That's interesting.

I do remember the guy in Lincoln's assassination, that whole trial with like Mary Sorot. Oh, yeah, yeah. The lawyer who represented Mary Sarat was like, this sucks. Well, and I'm sure. Not really wanting to do it. Yeah. And I'm sure for that trial, there were probably some Confederates who were like, you're a hero for defending her. But there's no one who's going to be like, you're a hero for defending Charles Gatot.

No, no. While Charles waited for those great lawyers to come a knocking, his sister Francis, who had spent her whole life. looking out for Charles begged her husband to help. Her husband, George Scoville, was an attorney, but he wasn't a criminal attorney. He was a patent lawyer from Illinois. That's not going to matter. That desperate request put George in a really tough spot. He was ill-equipped to defend his brother-in-law for such a significant crime. I mean, arguably the most significant crime. And it was going to happen under state laws with which he was not familiar. The irony of a man with the name Scoville having a hot trial.

I don't get it. Oh, like you measure heat with, it's called the Scoville. Oh, God. You know, like jalapenos have a Scoville number. Habaneros. Is this common knowledge? Am I the only one? I don't know.

First I thought this was kind of a handyman thing. Then you started mentioning hot sauces and I was like, I don't know. Not a handyman thing. Okay. question of the week do you know what a Scoville is yeah let us know am i the only one on earth who was like huh george felt conflicted but he knew deep down that what the government was attempting to do was wrong they wanted to give an insane man the death penalty george knew that he might not be able to stop them but he could sure as hell try in one of his first acts as charles

defense attorney, George Scoville asked the judge to appoint a local attorney to the defense team. He explained the situation. I'm from out of town. My expertise is in patent law. If you want this to be a fair trial, please appoint a good local attorney to the defense team. And the judge agreed. He placed a really well-respected young attorney named Lee Robinson on the case. And as soon as he found out, Lee was like, No, no, no, no, no. Yeah. No, no, no. Yeah, to the law.

Um, so this is basically a public defender. Yeah, essentially. Okay. Lee tried to find other dudes to take the case, but everyone was like, uh, represent Charles Gatot and tank my career. No, thanks. Good luck, buddy. You're never going to win that case.

It was the start of many bad things to come, because during their first court appearance together, George Scoville found out that behind his back and without his knowledge, the new defense attorney Lee Robinson had asked the judge for a continuance. Lee claimed that he'd found a more experienced attorney who wanted to take his place on the defense team. And that created the first of many tense moments because George turned to him in court and was like, oh, oh yeah, you found someone to take your place? Name him.

Name the guy. Tell us his name right now. Go ahead. I'll wait. I've got time. I've got time. Okay, I will. George Glass.

That's exactly what I... Yeah, Lee Robinson couldn't name the guy because the guy did not exist. At that point, Charles Gatot got all up in arms and started hollering about how he didn't like Lee Robinson. And Lee Robinson was fired. And actually, things were great because Charles was going to have a lot of money really soon. And he'd use it to hire a better attorney. So suck on that, Lee Robinson. Hey, maybe he could get James Blaine to represent him in court.

Oh, that's not happening. Well, you know, he's good buddies with Chester Arthur. You know, Chester can find someone for him. You know, the only reason James Blaine would say no is because he's going to be called as a witness here. Otherwise, he'd be thrilled to join, I'm sure. The judge ended up telling Lee Robinson to suck it up, Buttercup. And as anyone could have predicted, things got even worse from there. Jury selection was a mess.

They went through nearly 200 potential jurors. A lot of people got removed from the jury pool because they were like, F it, let's kill Charles Gatot right now. Yeah. Do you believe you are unbiased? Hell no. Let's kill him. Yeah, I'm unbiased.

We could either burn him alive or stab him a lot or, you know, we can do whatever. I haven't made up my mind about how we kill him. I'm open to a lot of options. How about shoot him out of a cannon into a brick wall? All of them torture. That was devastating for Charles. Number one, because he was shocked to learn that some people didn't think he was a hero. Yeah.

And number two, because as an attorney, he was taking a very active role in his defense. And he had said from minute one, day one, that he did not want any black dudes on his jury. And wouldn't you know it, he wound up with a jury of 11 white guys and, One black guy. Oh. Damn it. Did he really say, I don't want any black men on the jury? Yeah, he was very adamant about that.

Huh. What? What do you make of it? That he's a racist. Well, yeah, obviously. That's what I make of it, Kristen. No, so I've thought about that a lot. And I mean, obviously, there's a lot to say.

It's like, yeah, this guy's just a nut. Okay, there we go. Also, just racist. Okay, yeah, that too. Another big thing, though. James Garfield's presidency meant so much to black people. Yes. James Garfield had said, I'd rather be with you and lose than against you and win.

Mm-hmm. And people knew what they might be losing with his death. Yeah. And to add to that, you know, all these calls for lynchings, well, black men were being lynched everywhere for, for like no reason all the time. And so a lot of black men were saying, what are we doing here with this guy who has admitted to what he did? Yes.

And now he's getting the benefit of a trial? Give me a break. Yeah. No justice. So Charles Guto was really scared to have that one black guy on the jury. But Charles didn't have time to lament the fact that he wasn't OKKKK with his jury. Hey. It was showtime, baby.

The president had only been dead for two months, and now he was on trial. The courtroom was packed. In fact, it had been redone to accommodate all the extra seats. Spectators showed up looking like Yogi Bear because they were so nervous about losing their coveted spots that they showed up every day with picnic baskets so that they could sit, munch, and judge. Wow. You can eat while watching the trial? Yeah, if you can concentrate.

Imagine if you had a big bag of potato chips, that crunch, real distracting. I'm sure people had all kinds of disgusting stuff they brought in from home. Plus, you know, air conditioning had been sort of invented by this point, but it was not in that courtroom. No. Whoever has the tuna anchovy egg salad, can you please leave the room? It's so great that you don't have a refrigerator for that really stinks up the joint perfectly. soon the trial got underway, and the prosecution had it pretty easy. According to the McNaughton rule, the defense would have to prove that Charles either hadn't really known what he was doing

when he shot the president or that he didn't know that shooting the president was wrong. The prosecution told the jury that there was a mountain of evidence to establish that Charles Gatot knew exactly what he was doing. First off, Charles was an attorney. Granted, not a very good one, but even bad attorneys know that murder is against the law, so suck on that. Yeah, he can't use the George Kistan de Defense. Was that wrong? Should I not have done that? Plus, he'd planned this crime meticulously.

He'd purchased the gun. He'd stocked the president. He'd thought it through. At one point, by his own admission, he'd planned to kill the president, but didn't because the first lady was right next to him. Didn't that alone prove that the defendant could tell right from wrong? Yes.

Charles Gatot was not insane. He was just plain evil. He'd planned this. He'd revised his book in anticipation of it. He'd seen the president's assassination as a way to elevate himself in the world. He knew what he was doing and he knew it was wrong. The defense will tell you that he believed God told him to do this. But his own actions show that he did this because he wanted money. He wanted fame. He wanted political power. Well, he also knew it was wrong by being like, well, I'm going to need a pardon from the president. I'm going to need William Sherman to come break me out of jail. That's proof you know it's wrong too. Well, to me, that's proof that you know there will be consequences. And proof that you know that Chester Arthur is your best friend. That's what he was trying to prove. The defense had a very difficult task at hand, largely because Charles Goteau would not

not shut up. He was a hindrance to his own defense. But of course, he didn't see it that way. When the prosecutor said something he didn't like, which of course was all the time, he shouted an insult. When his own defense team said something he didn't like, he shouted insults at them. He talked back to the judge. He spoke directly to the jury.

None of this was allowed, of course, and the judge did try to stop it. But Charles Gatot could not be stopped. He kept interrupting and interrupting and interrupting throughout the trial. At one point, he told his brother-in-law, quote, you are a jackass on the question of cross-examination. I must tell you that right in public to your face. It's like a reality show line. I'm sorry, you forced my hand.

I have to tell you this in public. I'm only telling this because I'm a good fucking person and I want to be honest. Listen, I'm your friend. So I'm going to tell you you're a judge. You are a jackass at this. Another time, Charles interrupted to talk about an objectively wonderful thing that I have not mentioned yet. It was something that people had done for James Garfield's widow and now fatherless children. They'd held a fundraiser and it had raised quite a bit of money for the First Lady.

And that had evidently made Charles jealous. So in court one day, he said the following. Quote, The rich men of New York gave Mrs. Garfield $200,000 or $300,000. It was a splendid thing, a noble thing. Now I want them to give me some money. For what? Oh, my God.

You shot the president. Yeah, and why is everyone so mad about it? Honestly, this is like evidence piling up of his insanity defense. Thank you. Thank you. Yes. The judge and the jury should be like, uh, like side-eyeing each other right now.

Well, that's how I feel. Yeah. Is that there's no greater evidence. I mean, obviously, you want the evidence of his past to establish that this is not just an act in the courtroom. But I think there's something about just hearing it from the man himself. Yeah. The judge considered having Charles gagged, but he ultimately didn't, likely because he feared that if Charles Gatow was gagged, he might get a retrial.

And the judge really wanted this to be one and done. Or find it very arousing. In fact, a lot of people wanted this done. After one particularly hard day at trial, when Charles was being taken back to jail, some dude shot at him again, just like that soldier a few months earlier. And once again, missed him by a hair.

Wow. He almost got Lee Harvey Oswald. Mm-hmm. Alded. Lee Harvey Oswalded. Yeah, I got to make that past tense. Part of Charles Gatot's frustration at trial might have stemmed from his own background as an attorney. He had his own thoughts about how to best defend himself. And I got to say they weren't all bad.

For one thing, as you pointed out, Norm, he wanted to argue that he hadn't been the one to kill the president. The president's medical team had killed him. The president had died from medical malpractice, not a bullet wound. Technically, yes. Charles also wanted to argue that the Washington, D.C. court didn't have jurisdiction to try him for the president's death. Now, why is that? Because technically, the president died in New Jersey. Oh, yeah, but the crime happened in Washington, D.C.

Oh, but he's on trial for murder. I see what he's saying. Okay, Charles, all right. Yeah, so these arguments I would classify as obnoxious, but, you know, technically, you know, old bag of tricks. His brother-in-law, George Scoville, felt strongly that the better approach would be to focus on convincing the jury that Charles was insane. But that created another problem. Oh. What?

Can I guess? Please guess. Charles demands he is not insane. No. Charles pled not guilty by reason of insanity. Okay. I didn't know if he'd be like, I'm not insane. I definitely knew what I was doing and everyone loves me.

Now you know that he pled not guilty by reason of insanity. But you have sensed that he would not like the idea of being deemed insane. So how's he going to play this? I just figured he would say out loud in court, I'm not insane or something like that. Yeah, you thought that maybe his attorney convinced him, here's how you need to plea and then the whole time he, that's reasonable. Charles did not consider himself to be insane and he was deeply offended by anyone who questioned his sanity. Technically, he had pled not guilty by reason of insanity, but he believed and he wanted everyone

else to believe that he'd only been insane at the time of the shooting. He assassinated the president because God's will overcame him. Therefore, he was legally insane at the time of the shooting, but not actually insane all of the time. Oh, no, that's a bad idea. Yeah. Why is it a bad idea? Because there's so much evidence from his life that he does insane things. Right.

George Scoville knew his brother-in-law. He knew his client. He had dozens of witnesses who could all attest to the idea that Charles was insane and always had been. In other words, the prosecution had a clear argument. The defense had a murkier one. One that I personally would argue was made murkier, ironically enough, by the defendant's own insanity. The prosecution called a lot of people to the stand. Secretary of State James Blaine testified about his numerous encounters with Charles Guteau.

Oh, yeah. He talked about the day the president was shot. Illinois Senator John Logan, who you might remember from episode four, talked about Charles Gatot waltzing into his room one morning and demanding a recommendation for a political appointment. He was like half naked. Yes, and stunned. Charles Gatot's ex-wife, Annie Bunn, testified about his cruelty and violence. Dr. John Gray, the superintendent of New York's Utica Asylum, offered expert testimony saying that Charles Gatow was not insane.

He was depraved. Charles had put so much time and effort and planning into the assassination. That alone was proof that he was sane. Dr. Gray came from the school of thought that insanity was a brain disease that caused a major sudden change in an individual. And that was tough for the defense because Charles had not suffered a major sudden change. No. He had always been this way. Well, it seemed it just got progressively worse.

Right. as he got older. Right. The defense walked the jury through Charles' life story. His mother had died when he was young. He'd been beaten by his father. A father who, witnesses testified,

believed he could live forever. That was a key part of the defense that mental health issues ran in the family. Charles had an uncle who died in an asylum. Both of his parents had mental health issues. So did several aunts and cousins. The defense called witnesses who attested to the fact that Charles had always exhibited erratic behavior. In fact, one of the witnesses was a man we all made fun of in episode three of this series.

The dude was named Charles Reed. He was the Illinois attorney who administered the bar exam to Charles Guteau. And asked him three questions? Yes, he's the guy who I surmised might have been seconds away from a nasty case of explosive diarrhea because he did only ask three questions. And Charles got one of them wrong, and the dude was just like, okay, great job, you're an attorney. Yep, 66.6%. You passed, buddy.

In court, Charles Reed testified about the one trial where Charles Gattot served as an attorney. And Charles Reed was like, yeah, the dude was nuts. It was just a petty larceny case. And for some reason, Charles went on this weird rambling rant. I do believe he mentioned the Lord several times. That's one where he jumped in the jury box, right? And try to punch a guy? Yeah.

No, just put his fist in the guy's face. Just got real passionate, yeah. Clarence Darrow never did that. Yeah, he didn't have the nuts. Loser. What happened next is interesting. By that point, George Scoville had finally allowed Lee Robinson, the attorney who definitely did not want to be there, to just leave.

You can just leave. Well, yeah, I mean, he... He hadn't helped at all, and at a certain point, it's like, okay, you're just dragging us down. Here's to you, Lee Robinson. Get the hell out. We hate you a lot. A whole lot. But it was clear that Charles Gatot's defense team needed help.

So after he gave his testimony, Charles Reed offered to assist the defense. He believed that Charles Gatot was insane. He needed a good defense. You know, maybe Charles Reed felt a little bad about making Charles Gatotel a lawyer. It's like, I have to redeem myself. Norm. I had that in here. I took it out, but that's exactly what I think. I think he felt guilty. And he should have. He should have. Because I think there's a big thing with people like when they are this delusional and this troubled, if you are the gatekeeper of something that people respect and you're just letting everybody in and giving your stamp of approval to everybody, then I think you do bear some respect. I mean, not all the responsibility, obviously, but I mean, I think he should have felt bad.

Yeah, but to his defense, he did eat 15 jalapeno poppers with coffee and watermelon. Yeah. In retrospect, I think he was asking for it. Sounds like he's asking for him. Dark chocolate cake. What was, we might have to cut this. What was the thing? My parents were out RVing, and my dad ate something.

That was what he ate a bunch of jalapeno poppers. He ate a bunch of jalapeno poppers, not coffee and watermelon. But yet they had to look up hospitals that would be in network. Yeah. My dad was fine. Was fighting for his life on the toilet. And he thought, you've got to call an ambulance. Don't worry.

Those poppers made it through the system. I think he finished all of them, right? The poppers? Yeah. Well, yeah, he ate them all and he felt fine right after. But, you know, it's the night, you know, he had a dark night of the soul on that toilet, basically. So much of the trial was about framing, framing Charles Gattot's behavior in a certain way. Were his actions those of an insane man?

Or, as the prosecution argued, were they just the actions of an entitled narcissistic asshole? The prosecution called politicians to the stand. who asserted that, yeah, under the spoil system, a lot of people honestly believed that they deserve political appointments. Those people were not insane. They were just entitled. The defense used some of the letters

that Charles wrote before the shooting as evidence of his insanity. That ridiculous letter to General William to Comza Sherman, for example. But the prosecution called General Sherman in, and they were like, well, you did send your troops to guard him, though, didn't you? and when the general confirmed that he had,

the prosecution was like, hmm, guess he wasn't so crazy after all. Oh, come on. He didn't, William Sherman didn't send the troops because Charles Gatot ordered him to. That's not the reason. Right. Why did the prosecution even bring that up?

That's stupid. Just because they're trying to reframe everything. Everything that the defense says, they want to just say, okay, yeah, you could look at that as the actions of an insane man. or you could look at it as some power-hungry asshole. And look, he got his way. I guess. That's weak, though.

I agree. I agree. This probably goes without saying, but Charles Gatot of course took the stand in his own defense. Oh, well, that's really smart to do. Yeah. I do have my one semester law school under my belt. And I just have to tell all the history hoes out there. If you do find yourself on trial, I would recommend not taking the stand in your own defense. He was up there for four days, trying like hell to convince the jury that it had been God who demanded he shoot the president.

And of course, on cross-examination, the prosecutor was like, oh, the deity made you do this? Tell me, who bought the gun, the deity or you? And Charles was like, I did under the supervision of the deity. I did think it was interesting because to me that sounds like such a mic drop. But I went and read through the testimony. and Charles was not brought down by that question at all. He was pretty excited to be up there and just yammered on. It was time to shine.

Arguably the best expert witness for the defense was a neurologist named Edward Spitzka. He testified that Charles Gatot was insane and always had been. And he even offered testimony that was likely palatable to the jury by essentially saying, this man is insane and he sucks. He's insane and he is, quote, a moral, monstrosity. Two things can be true. That's right. They had normie see up there. One of the mantras of this podcast. Yep. Okay, as much as I would like to paint this man as a forward-thinking hero, I must tell you that a lot of his scientific evidence of Charles Gatot's

insanity was stuff like, look at his lopsided smile. That's a crazy smile. Oh, look at the way he's sitting there. That's a crazy way to sit. You know, back in the day, they had all these things about the shape of your head. Phrenology. Uh-huh. Yeah. It's all bullshit. No, it's all correct.

Well, at the time, people were like, yeah, this is real. Mm-hmm. On cross-examination, the prosecution tried to downplay Dr. Spitzka's expertise by asking him about the time he'd spent teaching at a veterinary college. The prosecutor was trying to imply that, you know, Dr. Spitzka was actually only qualified to talk about animals. And so he asked him. Are you, in fact, a veterinarian?

And Dr. Spitzka responded in court, mind you, quote, in the sense that I treat asses who ask me stupid questions I am. Ooh. Closing arguments were lengthy and chaotic. Charles Gatot heckled the prosecutor. At one point being like, you're a drunk. Heckled them? Yeah.

Well, to be fair, the prosecutor was saying a lot of, like very, very harsh things. And, yeah, so... You're a drunk. Yeah. Your mom doesn't love you. Charles, of course, wanted to present his own closing argument, but the prosecution objective...

Please don't. Yeah, and the judge was like, no, you're not doing that. And Charles got really mad, and he told the judge that he had just denied the jury an opportunity to hear, quote, an oration like Ciceroes, one that would go thunder. down the ages. Yeah. I mean, he really was like, you're missing out on something wonderful here. You're going to regret this.

And then Charles handed copies of what he would have said to some of the reporters. And eventually the prosecution was like, you know what, we'll withdraw our objection. Just this can't possibly hurt our case. And so the judge allowed it. Charles Gatot's closing statement was

predictably weird. He compared himself to George Washington and Ulysses S. Grant. That's fair. He told the jury that he was not a lunatic and that, quote, some of the best people of America think me the greatest man of this age and that feeling is growing. He predicted that he would one day be elected president of the United States. He claimed that he'd shot James Garfield because God wanted him to

and that God had allowed James Garfield's own doctors to finish the job gradually because, quote, he wanted to prepare people for the change. Ah, so it's like, you know, a slow rollout. Yes. Of the coming changes. Yes. At one point, he burst into song. What do you think he's saying?

Oh, God. Amazing Grace. It's a song we have sung on this podcast before. Give me that old time religion? Give me that old time a podcast. What did he sing? John Brown's Body. What?

He sung John Brown's Body? Is he comparing himself to John Brown? Norm, he's compared to all the greats, okay? All of them. Name him. He's one of them. Yes, he's comparing himself to John Brown. He's like a martyr.

Yeah. Okay. Then, for good measure, he threatened the jury, because why not? He told them that if they found him guilty, the nation would pay for it. Before the jury went into deliberation, the judge told them that they had to decide whether Charles Gatot had acted out of insanity. or narcissism. In his instructions, the judge kind of let slip his own opinion that Charles Gatot had shot the president not because he believed God wanted him to, but because he wanted to

be famous. He wanted to become a politician himself. See, I don't buy he wanted to be famous. I do think he wanted to be a politician. I think he could see, this is the part that. I think is missing here. I think he could want all of these things and it's the insanity that drives him to do it. That drives him to think, yeah, this is a way I can make this happen. I got to be honest, if I'm on this jury and those are the instructions, I'm finding him insane. Really? The judge

basically told, gave you his opinion and said, this dude's not insane. Well, he shouldn't have done that. Oh, he absolutely should not have done that. I agree. Yeah, I mean, just even if I came in in the beginning and was like, I hate Charles Goodtog. I can't believe he shot James Garfield. By the end of the trial, I think I would be fully bought in that, oh, this dude is insane. And so that raises another question. It's hard for me to wrap my head around the idea that anyone could not think he's insane.

So then the question is, can you decide, okay, He's insane. And yes, I hate this guy. I hate what he did. We can't kill him for it. Well, and also, I know you mentioned earlier that, like, they have a different definition of insanity back then, right? The McNaughton rule. Right.

But, you know, again, things were kind of in flux. Mm-hmm. Because based on the McNaughton rule. It's about what the person knows. Yes. So based on that rule, he's not insane. I mean, yeah, I think there's a good argument to say. He knew it was wrong.

Well, I think there, you could argue, no, he thought that God was telling him to do this. He really thought that. Now, personally, I don't think that at all. I think he was, you know, but I, that's why I think this rule isn't good enough. Yeah, is it still used today? No, things have evolved. Okay. But, I mean, you know, this is all kind of the foundation for what we use.

And I'm going to thank you to not ask me any more legal questions because it was truly the one semester, Norman. You've run out. Yeah. You've run out of knowledge. You know, when I wrote that joke earlier, I thought back to when I dropped out of law school. I remember I told my grandma, and my grandma asked if you were going to dump me. What? I was like, I was already so devastated by the whole thing.

Dump you? And I was like, well, grandma, he was with me. before I got into law school, so I think he'll stay with me afterward. And she goes, oh, I guess you're right. Jesus. I guess you didn't think much of me. What the hell? That'd be horrible.

You're not going to be a hot lawyer. That's it. I'm just going to be a hot lady who watches a lot of lost. That's what I did after I dropped out. You did enjoy some loss. That's true. And Friday night lights. I knew that watching five hours of lost a day wouldn't help my

mental state, but I had that irresistible urge to do it anyway. I think it all worked out for you, Kristen. I think so, too. Also, it was a lie to imply that I only watched five hours a day. The jury deliberated for less than two hours. They found him guilty. Just plain guilty. Not insane.

No. Yeah. The people in the courtroom cheered, and the judge quieted them. But Charles, as usual, couldn't keep quiet. He yelled at them, My blood be on the head of the jury, don't you forget it. God will avenge this outrage. When the judge sentenced him to death by hanging,

Charles defiantly responded, I will go to glory. I won't go yet. I expect to be president before I go. That verdict and that sentence, death, satisfied a lot of people. But Charles Gatot's brother and sister were devastated by it, and frankly, so were,

a lot of mental health experts who'd followed the trial closely. Even then, with the death sentence handed down, people refused to give up on Charles. It wasn't right. It wasn't right to kill him. Charles's brother wrote a letter to President Chester Arthur, begging him for a stay of execution. Chester didn't meet with him, but he did meet with a panel of mental health experts who told him, this is wrong. Charles Gatot should not be put to death. He is not a sane man. Chester seems to have been moved by that argument.

And again, he was a stalwart. He was technically a spoiled system boy, so maybe there was some pressure. But he was in a tough spot. He'd been accused not that long ago of conspiring with Charles Gatow to assassinate the president. Yeah, imagine if he did a stay of execution.

what people would say and do. Oh, yeah. Chester talked it over with his attorney general, and the attorney general was like, you can't do this. You cannot intervene here. Mm-hmm. So he dropped it.

When it was clear that the courts wouldn't overturn the decision and that the president would not intervene, Charles's sister, Francis Scoville, reached out to the former first lady, Lucretia Garfield. In a letter, Francis explained that her brother was, quote,

brain sick, deluded, crazy. She asked Lucretia to forgive him. And then Francis did something that I do not like it all. She predicted that now that he was in heaven, James Garfield understood why Charles did what he did, and that if James Garfield could speak, he would say to her, quote, forgive that deluded man, even as I forgive him,

safely keep him from doing any more harm, but forgive. No. No, no, no. Here's the thing. I have so much sympathy for Francis and John, the brother and sister. And I can even understand in that desperate moment, writing a letter to the first lady and begging her. But, oh, gosh, you've got to do it the right way. and my God, here,

let me invent quotes from your dead husband. Give, no, no, no, no. You don't bring him up at all. No. To a morning widow. Good Lord. You bring him up to praise him and to say how devastated you are

by what your brother did. And then you try to tell her, look, my brother really is not well. That's horrible. Oh, it gets worse. Oh, Jesus. When Lucretia didn't respond to that letter, Francis traveled to Ohio. And in a move that sounds a little too much like something her brother would have done,

Francis found out where Lucretia was staying, and she knocked on the door. No! I need the what-the-fuck bird. I don't think I have it. You don't have it? You've got to find it. No. I don't have it on here.

Oh, my God. Well, let me do my best imitation. What the fuck? What-the-fuck-the-fuck. Yes. Lucretia wasn't at home when Francis arrived, but when she came home and found that Charles Gatot's sister was in her library wanting to talk,

she had someone tell Francis to get the fuck out. Um, yeah. Unreal. I would have been chucking rocks at her. Yeah, Lucretia wasn't hard-hearted, but she wasn't going to intervene on Charles Gattot's behalf. She had told her children, and I think this is generous.

that they should pity Charles Goteau. And I think maybe that's kind of, I mean, I don't know what you say to your kids in this situation. Yeah, about the man that shot their father. Yeah. In front of two of the kids. Yeah, and they're all such different ages. I mean, there's no, there's no blanket way to do it. But Molly especially, Molly was 14.

And she was there. I believe she was sitting on the porch steps. Yeah. When Francis showed up. And of course, Molly didn't know that she was Charles Gatot's sister who showed up uninvited. But she was livid, livid. And she wrote in her diary about how, you know, mom wants us to pity Charles Gatot. I can't.

I hate him. I hate him. That's a totally fair way to feel. I can't believe they didn't include that in the Death by Lightning series. You know, it's funny. My memory is so bad. I don't remember what they included and what they didn't. Not that.

I don't remember that. You know, I think it's important. I think, and I think his trial is important. That's, you know what? We'll say that's for the end. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. 20,000 people requested tickets to Charles Gatot's execution.

250 were allowed to attend. Leading up to it, Charles planned to be executed in his underwear. He wanted that image of a man executed in his underwear to remind people of Jesus Christ on the cross. Oh, my God. But he'd been so upset during his trial about his defense team's notion that he was insane that when someone, I think probably a minister who'd visited him frequently in prison, pointed out that people might think he really was insane for choosing to be executed in his underwear,

Charles decided to wear a suit instead. Well, and hey, that's old timey underwear. So he'd be in like Long Johns or something. Yeah, I don't know. I think it just says a lot. I think it's really sad. Yeah. I mean, he's, yeah, when he thinks he's Jesus Christ or wants to compare himself to Jesus Christ.

The fact that this is an idea that he had to be talked out of means that he's no longer the monster, we are, in my opinion. Interesting. You don't agree? I don't know. I'm feeling for the Garfield family right now. Sure. Two things can be true. You can feel for the Garfield family, but also know that this man was not sane.

Yeah, he wasn't. And then you have to ask yourself, is it right and okay? Is it justice to kill this man? Right. On the day of his execution, Charles was taken out of the jail, his hands bound behind his back. Reverend Hicks, the man who'd visited Charles in jail frequently for the past month, walked with him. They climbed the steps of the scaffold. The Reverend held a Bible open so that Charles could read a few verses to the crowd. Charles announced that he'd written a poem earlier that

day. He said it was best read in the voice of a pleading child, a pleading child talking to their mother or father. And so he read it aloud in an imitation of a child's voice. Oh my. I won't do that voice, but I'm going to read some of it. Okay. I am going to the Lordy.

I'm so glad. I am going to the Lordy. I am so glad. I am going to the Lordy. Glory, hallelujah, Lori hallelujah. His voice broke on that final line. Lori hallelujah,

glory hallelujah. I am with the Lord. Afterward, they bound his legs, covered his head with a hood. They put a noose around his neck. Charles dropped the poem he'd written. He'd spoken to his executioner, the warden of the district jail earlier that day, and he'd asked if he could drop that poem as a signal that he was ready to be hung. And the warden had obliged. Charles Gatot died in front of that crowd, and afterward people were invited to parade past his body. His brother John was there.

He didn't speak. He didn't cry. He just witnessed. Throughout his trial, there had been talk that Charles Gatot's body might hold proof of his insanity. But an autopsy revealed nothing particularly unusual. And with that death, with that end, people moved forward. It was sort of a funny thing. At the time of his death, James Garfield was a towering figure,

but as years went by, his name faded. He'd been president for less than 200 days. He'd had great intentions, great promise, and that had been cut short. His legacy did live on, though. After his funeral, Lucretia went back to Ohio. Joseph Stanley Brown, the young man who'd served as James Garfield's private secretary, joined her. He wanted to help Lucretia as she undertook an incredible endeavor,

one that had never been done before. Lucretia wanted to do something that would honor her husband's place in history, something that would protect it. So, using some of the money that people had fundraised for her, she built an addition to the Ohio Farmhouse. She got Joseph's help organizing her husband's papers. She created the first presidential library. Wow.

Yeah. And now that is a, you know, standard thing with presidents. Yeah. In that library, Lucretia made brave choices. She included their personal letters. Letters that didn't just showcase the good times they shared, but letters that they'd written to each other in the aftermath of his affair. Letters from their hard early years when they struggled to understand one another.

And letters from when the grief from losing their first child nearly tore them apart, she preserved all of it. Of the five Garfield children, Molly struggled the hardest with her father's death. But she did move forward. In time, she admitted to herself that she'd fallen in love with Joseph Stanley Brown, the man who her father had mentored and admired. Whoa. They got married in a ceremony at the farmhouse. Age gap, Kristen?

I'm going to allow it. It was like 10 years. They waited until she was like 21. I wonder when the courtship started. We need to find the silver linings when we can in this story, Norman. They got married in a ceremony at the. Ohio farmhouse, which by that point had been permanently dubbed Lawnfield from the campaign that was essentially run

on the front porch of their Ohio farmhouse. The four Garfield boys grew up to become men that their father would have been proud of. They all attended his alma mater, Williams College. In fact, the oldest, Harry became president of Williams College. Jim became secretary of the interior during Teddy Roosevelt's administration. Irvin went to Harvard, and Abe became an architect and one of the founders of Case Western Reserve University.

As for everyone else, President Chester Arthur surprised damn near everyone when he, of all people, dismantled the spoils system. A year into his presidency, he signed the Pendleton Civil Service Act. From that point forward, government positions would be given on the basis of merit. We hope. Yep. People really underestimated Chester Arthur. Tell me more, Norm. Well, again, unqualified. Sure, unquestionably.

Yeah. Only became president because of a horrible thing. Yep. But I do think he was a guy that wanted to do right by James Garfield, you know? Yeah. He wanted to live up to that expectation. He wanted to rise to the occasion. I think he did.

I mean, you're not going to put Chester Arthur in like top ten presidents. Oh, hell, no. Pretty damn good, you know, considering the expectations. He is one of those interesting ones to me because time has been kinder to him and his presidency. People look back now and they think, wow, that was pretty incredible what he did because. Well, dismantling the system he benefited from. It says a lot about you. It does.

And also at a time when political scandals, well, I mean, political scandals are still really common, but his term was scandal-free. During his presidency, Chester Arthur also ensured that the White House received a much-needed renovation, one that included a full reworking of the White House's outdated plumbing system. Oh, but we got used to the smell. We started to like it. No, we did not. And speaking of shit, Norm Chester's relationship with Ross,

Conkling got more complicated. Not long after Chester's inauguration, Roscoe visited him. The conversation got ugly, very ugly. By that point, James Blaine had resigned as Secretary of State. Chester was poised to select his new cabinet, and Roscoe Conkling wanted the top spot. Of course. And that wasn't all. Okay, what would be more ridiculous?

A more ridiculous demand. From Roscoe Conkling? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Vice presidency? Well, no, he can't do that. Think pettier. Pettier? Pettier? Yeah, as petty as possible.

What was he so mad about? He was mad because he didn't get his Senate seat back, right? Why? Because of those guys in New York. Did he want them investigated or something? No, he wanted something so much worse. This whole mess had kicked off because James Garfield had nominated. William Robertson to a position with the New York Customs House.

And now, with James Garfield dead, Roscoe demanded that Chester Arthur remove William Robertson from that position. Oh, and give it to Roscoe Conkling? Put it back under his power. You know, this was the whole reason that Roscoe resigned his Senate seat was over this protest. Chester couldn't believe what he was hearing. He told Roscoe that he was being ridiculous. Rasko stormed out that day. And from that point on, he referred to Chester Arthur as, quote, his accidentacy.

Ooh, that's actually a pretty good burn. Well, I mean, Roscoe Conkling was such a major bitch. I mean, he knew how to burn you. Yeah. Chester did try to smooth things over. He offered Roscoe a seat on the Supreme Court. What? Yeah, how many times can this man be offered a seat on the Supreme Court?

Please tell me. In fact, the Senate confirmed him by a vote of 39 to 12. What do you think Roscoe did? I don't want it. Yep. Turned it down. Man, this man is the pettiest of all time. The pettiest of the petticoats.

They're getting one of the highest positions in the country handed to you. Yes. And you say no because you're still upset. A great big baby boohooing because he can't eat all the cake. Kristen, he's got a poopy-booty attitudy. Yes, you heard it here first, folks. A poopy-booty attitudey. Chester Arthur finished his term as president,

and at the end of it, he'd hoped for another, but he wanted to be elected this time. But that wasn't in the cards. The spoil system boys, aka the stalwarts, were mad at him. He'd turned his back on them by enacting civil service reform. And that other part of the Republican Party, the guys who'd been in favor of civil service reform, always felt that Chester wasn't really one of them.

Ah, so he wasn't really appealing to either side. He was, I mean, he was too moderate, basically. Yeah, so he can't get full support. So when it came time for the Republicans to select their next nominee for president, they chose James Garfield's former Secretary of State, the magnetic man from Maine, James Blaine. James Blaine. and he didn't win.

Yeah. He likely would have made a very good president. He was up against Democrat Grover Cleveland. We don't like Grover Cleveland on this podcast. We don't tell me more. Well, because he was an asshole to Robert Smalls. Oh, that's right. I forgot why I hated him, but I do hate him.

Yeah. Roscoe Conkling. But by that point, Roscoe was in his Matlock era. He was a trial attorney now, and he'd love to show boat in front of the jury. Oh, yeah. James asked Roscoe to help with the campaign. Friends reached out to him, too,

asking Roscoe to give a few speeches, for the good of the party. Hell, for the good of the nation. Roscoe turned them down, saying, quote, No, thank you. I don't engage in criminal practice. He's good with the burns.

He's good with the burns. I can't stand this man. Very petty. Yeah. Behind the scenes, though, he did get involved. For the other side, he provided dirt to Grover Cleveland's team. He wrote anonymous columns trashing James Blaine. In the end, James Blaine lost the election by a razor-thin margin.

Yeah, I do remember it was close. When he was asked to run for president again in 1892, James Blaine found he didn't have the energy. By that point, three of his children had died unexpectedly and in quick succession. Oof. He'd spent so much of his life wanting to be president, but not now, not anymore. He said, quote, when the American people choose a president, they require him to remain awake for four years. I have come to a time in my life when I need sleep.

It's amazing for him to admit that. that'd be a hard one. Yeah. But I think there's also something to like, okay, how many times do people need to reject me before I just accept it? Sure. James Blaine wasn't the only one who struggled. Not long after he left the White House, Chester Arthur was diagnosed with Bright's disease. Or as we'd say today, kidney disease.

He died within two years. A few years later, Roscoe Conkling met his end. Oh, I know this. I know this story. It's a dramatic way to go, isn't it? Yes, it is. Very fitting. Over the course of two spring days in 1888, New York was hit with a snowstorm of epic proportions. They received 22 inches of snow.

They were hit with 75 mile per hour winds. Hundreds of people died in that snowstorm. And in the midst of all of it, Roscoe Conkling insisted on going into the office. As he worked, more snow fell, the wind blew harder, and when it was, time to get a carriage ride home, the driver was like, okay, that'll be 50 bucks. Yeah. And Roscoe was like, hell no to the no, no, no. Yeah, I'll just walk.

He walked home in those terrible conditions. And as soon as he got inside, he collapsed. He died two weeks later. But Norman, I got to ask you, how could we talk about Roscoe Conkling without also mentioning Thomas Platt? Me too, Tom Platt. Who could forget him? Yep, the other senator. The man who so desperately wanted credit for that brilliant idea that he and Roscoe Conkling would resign their Senate seats.

The man who'd been the victim of creepy peepers. The man who'd been humiliated by a sex scandal. You know, he should be fanking his lucky stars. For what? That Conkling basically gets all the credit for that boneheaded move. Yeah, he should. Because you know what? if you can believe it. After just a few years, Tom Platt emerged as the new boss of the New York

Republicans. He became very powerful. And when a governor named Theodore Roosevelt became a pain in his neck, Tom got a brilliant idea to stick that guy where he wouldn't accomplish much of anything. Tom Platt nominated Theodore Roosevelt as William McKinley's vice president. Get out of my state. He never would have guessed that William McKinley would be assassinated. And of course, no one would have guessed the cruelest twist of fate that Robert Todd Lincoln would have been there to witness that assassination as well. But unlike his father's assassination,

and unlike James Garfield's assassination, William McKinley's assassination brought about the change we so badly needed. When Abraham Lincoln was assassinated, Americans told themselves that he was assassinated as an act of war. When James Garfield was assassinated, Americans told themselves that he'd been a victim of the spoils system. But the assassination of William McKinley removed all doubt. American presidents were not immune from assassination. They needed protection. And from that point forward, they got it.

And while it is tempting to end on that note, I'd prefer to end with a quote from our often forgotten president, James Garfield. It goes, I love to believe that no heroic sacrifice is ever lost, that the characters of men are molded and inspired by what their fathers have done. And that is the story of the assassination of James Garfield. All the golf claps for Kristen. That was wonderful. And sad and frustrating. Yeah. Okay, we've got to talk about that trial.

Okay. Because you're right. I think that, you know, sometimes his trial doesn't get talked about. I seriously in death by lightning, I don't think they did it at all. So in the book, which is an excellent book, yeah, it's not covered in depth. It's also not really covered at all, I think, in the other book I read, which was Dark Horse. So, you know, went to other sources for that. And obviously, those two books were like the backbone of this whole series, so I'm not going to shit on them.

But I will say, I think it's a mistake to tell this story and not talk in depth about Charles Gattot's trial. Right. Because if we don't talk about his trial, then we kind of let ourselves off the hook. You know, there's so much about this story, you know, this idea that a president, didn't have a bodyguard ever, that just anyone could walk into the White House at any time, that presidents had no protection whatsoever. We hear that now and we can go, oh my gosh, that's ridiculous. The idea that someone would be shot and doctors would touch the wounds with unwashed hands.

We see that now and we know that is ridiculous and terrible. But to not talk about the fact that we killed a. clearly insane man. It muddies the waters, you know? Well, yeah. I mean, the other ones, it feels kind of like, it feels like we've got the answer key. And we're looking back and going, wow, how wrong. I know the answers because I've got the answer key.

Yeah. But, you know, other countries, when they had assassination attempts or assassinations, they didn't, you know, they sometimes found people insane. They put them in asylums. Right. So it's not like, oh, that's just the way it was. Now, we chose to do this. And I think it's a mistake to not examine it. And it was interesting to mention that, you know, a panel advised Chester Arthur that,

hey, this guy is not well. It would be a mistake to execute him. Now I understand Chester Arthur was in a difficult spot on that. I think what bothers me is like, I feel like damn near anybody could have advised someone. hey, Charles Gautot is not in his right mind. Yes, he is annoying as hell. Yes, he did this awful thing. Yeah, we can hate him all day long.

I mean, of course, it's complicated by the fact that I don't like the death penalty for anybody, but the idea of executing someone who's not... Not in their right mind. Yeah. No, I agree. It's not clear. I think it is clear. I think it's clearly wrong.

I'm saying that like even for people that are pro-death penalty, that's not clear. Sure, sure. Yeah. And I kind of wish there was more information about his brother and sister. Francis and George divorced shortly after the trial. Interesting. And George tried to have her committed to an asylum. Well, I mean, the mental health stuff definitely ran in that family.

Well, and you wonder, you know, she showed up at freaking Garfield House. You do wonder what was going on with her. Yeah, I mean, it's hard to say. I think that a lot of people do things that are deeply misguided and inappropriate. That doesn't mean that they're insane, though. No, that's true. That's true. Yeah.

Now, didn't they preserve his brain, Charles Gattot's brain? Yeah. Yeah, so he, his body, and this is common for presidential assassins, is in a museum, basically. Yeah. Yeah. Because they did want to look at it. Some of the expert witnesses at the trial had talked about, like, well, there might be something with his brain that, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, that it would explain whether he's sane or insane. Right.

They're looking for like a pentagram on his brain. Sure. Yeah. And, you know, of course, they didn't find anything. and yeah, now his brain is in a jar, his other body parts are, I was about to say in a museum. They're not on display, but, you know, you know. You can't walk into this, Smithsonian. I'd like to look at Charles Gatow's body.

I'm sorry, that's only on Mondays. We don't do that on Saturdays. Just like the jail tour. That's right. Good little callback. A little joke. We will reward you for that. We will reward you for that.

We'll try to tour a jail. Kristen, wonderful series. Great job. Thanks. It makes me want to go to the Garfield Presidential Library. Me too. Me too. Yeah, we have a lot of Ohioans listening.

They should be proud that James Garfield hails from that great state. Don't you wonder what he might have accomplished if he was? Oh, yeah, that's one of the greatest what-ifs of American history, I think. I agree. I mean, even you think about it with Lincoln, you think about it with Garfield, you think about it with Kennedy. You think about it with Kennedy? Yeah. Mm-hmm.

What if? I'm even thinking about James Blaine. You know, James Blaine is an interesting one. He's another person who, in his day, was one of the most famous people. Mm-hmm. Everyone knew him. He was a huge deal. And now nobody knows him.

Yeah. Because he didn't ever win. Yeah. That top spot. He was the Henry Clay of his time. But we know Henry Clay, because Henry Clay lived. for 5,000 years. He did.

He just lived forever. Well, Kristen, should we wrap up this episode, this series? Yeah, let's do it. Kristen, you know what they say about history hoes? We always cite our sources.

That's right. For this episode, I got my information from the book, Destiny of the Republic, a tale of madness, medicine, and the murder of a president by Candace Millard. The book,

Dark Horse, the surprise election and political murder of President James James A. Garfield by Kenneth D. Ackerman. The Federal Judicial Center document, United States versus Goteau, Assassination and Insanity in Gilded Age America by Winston Bowman. The article The Trial of Charles Gatow by Douglas O'Linder for Famous Trials.com. Plus more, check the show notes for a full list of our sources.

That's all for this episode. Thank you for listening to an old-timey podcast. Please give us a five-star review wherever you listen to podcasts. And while you're at it, Subscribe. Support us on Patreon at patreon.com slash old-timey podcast. Join the Reddit community, R-Slas old-timey podcast. Follow us on Facebook and YouTube and Instagram at Old Timey Podcast. You can also follow us individually on Instagram. I'm at Kristen Pitts-Karuso and he's at Gaming Historian.

And until next time, Tootulu, Tata, and Cheerio. Bye. Bye. Bye. See you.