An Old Timey Podcast - 96: Snack Attack: Oreo vs. Hydrox

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hear ye, hear ye. You are listening to an old-timey podcast. I'm Norman Caruso. And I'm Kristen Caruso. And on this episode, I'll be talking about the biscuit wars. Hydrox versus Oreo. Oh my God. I just knew you couldn't stay away from wars for too long. It's finally happened. You're talking to me about a war. That's right. How much blood will be involved in this? There will be blood. No, there won't. Yeah, there will. No one died, Norman. People die during the biscuit wars. I'm sorry to tell you, Kristen.

Starting point is 00:00:35 I hate how clearly excited I am about that. No, I heard it in my voice and I was like, we can't really edit that out. We don't have that kind of magic. Murder? No, no murder. Murder. Oh, okay. I'm not...

Starting point is 00:00:50 Not that I know of anyway. All right. Well, you know what? I am excited for this. Should I tell the people about the grocery store run? did or no, no. We'll let them find out the hard way. Nope. By listening to our show. That's right. And instead, I will tell them about our Patreon. How about that? Okay, sounds good. Hey there, history ho. Why not support our small, sexy, independent podcast on Patreon? For just

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Starting point is 00:02:03 You've got ad-free video episodes of this podcast. You've got bonus episodes. You play trivia with us every month. You're in the Discord, shitty chat in the day away. But starting now, in this very episode, you're getting a whole new perk, baby. We call it the Slop. From now on, until the end of times, we're giving you exclusive content at the end of every episode. We hope you enjoy today's Slop.

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Starting point is 00:04:19 I think so. Kristen, you took us on an incredible seven-part series about James Garfield and his assassin. and the delusional man that killed him, Charles Gatot, and the Dr. Doctor, Dr. Bliss. Yes. So I thought, hey, you know, let's switch it out. Let's talk about cookies. Let's do a seven-part series on cookies. No.

Starting point is 00:04:42 Nope. Yeah, no, folks. Sorry, sorry about that. Oops, Fudge Stripes did another seven-part series. You don't have to apologize. We're not worried about that. I'm worried about it. It's a show.

Starting point is 00:04:53 I'm an entertainer, baby, and I know when I've gone on too long. Did you feel like that little cane was coming off stage to grab you around the neck and pull you off? I read the reviews. I know people had their canes ready. Don't listen to those haters, Kristen. Let's get started and let's learn about the Biscuit Wars. Okay. And let's start with a pop quiz, Kristen.

Starting point is 00:05:17 What's the best-selling cookie in the world? I'm guessing Oreo. What? No, I'm just kidding, it is. Oh, okay. Also, why are you going at Biscuit Wars? What are you British? Um, this here's America.

Starting point is 00:05:32 Hey, Kristen, maybe you should let me tell my story and I'll tell you why. Oh, boy, this is humbling. And you didn't have to sound like Barney when you took your invitation to me. Okay, that was, that was rude. That was really rude. I think kind of sound like Barney. Let's be patient and let the other kids talk. You could have done like a cute, sexy voice.

Starting point is 00:05:55 Barney's, Barney's kind of. No, don't be weird. Don't be weird. Okay. Yes, Oreo is the best-selling cookie in the world. Got some right here behind me, actually. If you're on the $10 tier, you can see them. Not an ad. They're right there. Since Oreos were first introduced in 1912, more than 500 billion packages of Oreos have been sold around the world. Every single day, people consume 92 million Oreos.

Starting point is 00:06:25 It's one of those cookies that feels timeless. an American tradition. After all, it is milk's favorite cookie. But Kristen, what if I told you that Oreos are nothing but a shameless rip-off? Okay, is this where you're asking for a reaction that's good for the show or for my real-life reaction? Real-life reaction. My real-life reaction is, Norm. You have been telling me this fact for, like, literal years with true outrage in your voice.

Starting point is 00:07:00 And I don't know that I've always had the past. that you bring to this subject matter. Yeah, I do feel like maybe I'm the only one that cares about this. But that's why this is my podcast. I'm going to tell my story. Very good. Well, I just want to let everyone out there listening know that you have been lied to because four years before Oreos even hit the market,

Starting point is 00:07:24 there was another chocolate sandwich cookie with a cream-filled center. And it was called Hydrox. If you're a history ho over the age of 30, you might remember Hydrox? Maybe? No. Do you remember Hydrox? No. Okay.

Starting point is 00:07:43 Well, I may have overplayed my hand here. Do you remember it? Yeah, I remember Hydrox. Oh. And I'm willing to bet that if you do remember Hydrox, you've had many a sleepless night thinking, gee, I wonder whatever happened to Hydrox cookies. They seem to just disappear from store shelves. well, strap the fuck in people. Oh! Because the story of Hydrox cookies

Starting point is 00:08:05 is the story of a decades-long battle between two of the biggest baking companies in the United States. It's a tale of desire, disloyalty, deception, death, and deliciousness. I was hoping for dicks. Dicks? Don't worry about it. Well, there are a lot of men in this story, so there are dicks. Okay, well, there we go.

Starting point is 00:08:25 And by the end of this episode, I bet everyone listening will be saying, wow, Norm, this was exactly what I was exactly what I'm going to do. I needed to hear to put my mind at ease. I can sleep again. Thank you for making my dreams crumb true. Oh, my God. Eh? Yeah, you earned it.

Starting point is 00:08:43 You're damn right. There's plenty more, by the way. Kristen, before we get into the sweet cream-filled center of this story, we're going to need some context, aka the dark chocolatey wafer of an old-timey podcast. And so we need to first talk about crackers. Oh, we're really getting into the context. Okay. Yes.

Starting point is 00:09:03 And by crackers, I mean both hard-baked bread and a couple of white people. Because the mass-produced cookie industry was born from the cracker industry. I love a good cracker. Yeah, of course. You and I both do. Every time I go to Costco, Kristen asks for salting crackers. Costco does not sell salting crackers. You've got so much rage in this episode.

Starting point is 00:09:29 Norm, I'm so impressed. You're mad at Oreos for stomping in pretending to be original. You're mad at Costco for not selling saltines. What else? I'm just shocked. He can't even talk about it. He's too emotional. Choked on my drink.

Starting point is 00:09:45 I just can't believe Costco doesn't sell saltine crackers. That seems like a pantry staple. Norm, please stop crying. I need a tissue. I need a moment. Okay. Kristin crackers are older than Jesus Christ himself. They date back to 2000 BC.

Starting point is 00:10:06 The Romans, Egyptians, and Greeks all had their own name for a cracker. The Romans called it Biscoctum. That sounds disgusting. That literally translates to twice-baked bread. Biscoctum. Kind of like biscotti? Yeah. Yeah?

Starting point is 00:10:20 I see where it's coming from. Yeah, I guess I was thinking more of the tail end of the word, which sounds a little too much like rectum. Coctum. Yeah. That's the pee hole in the pean. It's called the cocktum. You know, I bet you people, when they're trying to find an episode like, oh, maybe I could listen to one of these with my kids.

Starting point is 00:10:39 I bet they would be tempted to choose the cookie one, and boy, are they disappointed and horrified. Joe, you don't have to find an image for cockdom, okay? Just want to let you know. So, yeah, the Romans, the Egyptians, the Greeks, they all had their own names for crackers. And these crackers were essential for long journeys and military campaigns. They were portable, cheap to make, they lasted a long time, and they were filling.

Starting point is 00:11:01 And for centuries, countries all over the world fed their soldiers and sailors this type of food. It was often called Hardtack. At the turn of the 19th century, a Massachusetts baker named Josiah Bent thought there was money to be made from Hardtack. And so he made his own version of it and called it water crackers. And he used the word cracker because the bread would make a cracking sound as it cooled down. Crackers were now being consumed by the masses. Wagon trains heading out west loaded up on them. I bet the Donner Party had some crackers in their wagon.

Starting point is 00:11:35 Prospectors out in California ate crackers as they looked for gold. And in cities all over the country, plain old poor people filled up on crackers to stay alive. Eventually, machinery made crackers a mass-produced commodity, and were readily available in just about every dry goods store across the country. Bakers would ship crackers to stores in old flour barrels, and folks all around town would gather around the Cracker Barrel, sharing news and munching on the freshest crackers on top. Hence where the restaurant name Cracker Barrel comes from. Oh.

Starting point is 00:12:11 Did you know that? No, I didn't know that. Yeah. Is Cracker Barrel a racist restaurant? I don't know, but it feels racist. It certainly does. But you know, Kristen, Bakers, they weren't just going to stop with crackers.

Starting point is 00:12:26 Thanks to sugar being more widely available, cookies and biscuits were also becoming readily available for consumers. Not so fun fact. Oh, no, my brains. At that time, women who bought crackers or biscuits or cookies were deemed lazy because they weren't making it themselves. Oh, that's nice. Isn't that a, that's why I said not so fun fact.

Starting point is 00:12:51 It's not so fun. Not so fun. Yeah. But also, I'm not surprised. No. But you know what, Kristen, those judgmental assholes can eat our mother fudgeon buttholes. Oh, okay. Because guess what?

Starting point is 00:13:06 Crackers, biscuits, and cookies were here to stay. In fact, just about every town in the United States, there was a local baker who made crackers, biscuits, and cookies for their community. But that small town vibe, it would not last, Kristen. Capitalism demands growth. and some bakers wanted a bigger piece of the pie. And this would eventually lead to one of the greatest conflicts of the 20th century. Okay. The biscuit wars.

Starting point is 00:13:36 Brother against brother. That's right. And just a heads up, when I say biscuit, I'm really talking about cookies. Because they called cookies biscuits back in the day. Okay. Are you happy, Kristen? Are you satisfied? I'm just a lazy woman who buys her cookies and crackers.

Starting point is 00:13:54 at the store. You know what? You make these M&M cookies that are my favorite. They're so damn good. You are so sweet. They are delicious. What's in those things? Eminem's.

Starting point is 00:14:09 Just M&M's. Man, they're good. No, there's nothing magical about them, but you are very sweet when I make those cookies. I eat way too many. I get a massive tummy ache. I regret my decisions. But then the next morning I'm like, I wonder if we have any more of those M&M cookies.

Starting point is 00:14:24 Uh-huh. All right, Kristen, our story of the Biscuit Wars begins with two brothers who truly believe that life is what you bake of it. Oh, my God. How many are there in this? Uh, about 22. Oh, my God. Two brothers, Joseph and Jacob Luce. The Luce brothers were born in the mid-1800s in Greencastle, Pennsylvania. They were two of seven children. Their father was a hardworking farmer of German Dutch Annen. ancestry. Growing up, Joseph and Jacob worked the farm. A newspaper writer later claimed that the farm life gave those boys, quote, a fine physique, a sound constitution, and a grounding in that

Starting point is 00:15:08 domestic economy and industry, which later was to become the foundation of their life's work. Ooh. That's some flowery language. No kidding. In 1860, when Joseph was 15, and Jacob was 10, the Luce family moved to Illinois, the land of Lincoln, and there they started another farm. But in Illinois, there was more opportunities for young Joseph and Jacob. Nearby Springfield and Decatur both had plenty of dry goods stores. And there was good money to be made without all the tough physical labor of running a farm. Joseph Luce found a job in a dry goods store in Springfield, Illinois. And by 1867, he was running his own store in Paxton, Illinois.

Starting point is 00:15:53 his younger brother Jacob was also drawn to the business. At the age of 16, he dropped out of school and got a job earning $5 a week as a clerk in a dry goods store. Just for inflation, he made about $100 a week. Not bad for a high school kid. Right. Jacob Luce loved that job. And he was filled with determination to learn everything he could about the business. And who knows, maybe one day he himself would own a dry goods store.

Starting point is 00:16:20 Well, amazingly, in 1860s, when Jacob was just 20 years old, he said, you know what? I'm going to dough what I want. And so he left Illinois with one of his older brothers, David, and he headed for Chitopa, Kansas. And together they opened their very own dry goods store. Chitopa is in the southeast corner of Kansas. It's like right next to modern day Oklahoma, right on the border. Of course, back in 1870, it was not called Oklahoma.

Starting point is 00:16:53 that was deemed Indian territory. Jacob Luce later recalled his wild days on the frontier. One newspaper article wrote that Luce, quote, spent many nights sleeping on the store counters, guarding his stock of merchandise against raids of renegade Indians. Okay. Yeah, I don't know if I totally believe that story. Right.

Starting point is 00:17:13 But regardless, Jacob's dry goods stores were a hit. He and his brother earned a reputation for selling quality merchandise at a fair price. Sound familiar? I was going to say this is like your obsession. It's very J.C. Penny like, isn't it? It's very JCPenny. Yeah. He's the JCPenny of Chitopa, Kansas.

Starting point is 00:17:32 Well, with success came expansion. Three years later in 1873, they opened a second store across the state line in Joplin, Missouri. But for whatever reason, their partnership did not last. Jacob and David decided they could no longer work together, and they dissolved their partnership. Jacob got to keep the store in Chitopa, Kansas, while David took the one in Joplin, Missouri. Oh, well, that works out. With less responsibilities on his plate,

Starting point is 00:18:02 Jacob Luce found new opportunities. He got into the lumber business. He bought a few farms. He raised horses. He met a beautiful woman named Ella Clark from nearby Carthage, Missouri. And soon enough, they fell in love. Jacob got down on one knee and declared, Ella, you're my butter half.

Starting point is 00:18:21 Will you marry me? Jesus Christ On a cracker Hey I couldn't help myself Ella said yes They got married Everything was going well for Jacob Luce

Starting point is 00:18:34 But Kristen he wasn't satisfied Jacob didn't want a regular life He wanted a double-stuffed life Said one newspaper article Quote A broader life seemed to beckon To Mr. Luce Good Lord

Starting point is 00:18:49 I love old times New newspaper articles. Did he make sweet love to every reporter in the land? He did. He had sex with every newspaper reporter. Sweet love. Sweet, delicious love. Yeah, all right.

Starting point is 00:19:03 So yeah, Jacob Luce wants more out of life. Well, that broader life came in 1882 when his older brother, Joseph, came to him with an opportunity. And he was like, hey, Jacob, do you want to buy a cracker company? specifically the coral cracker and confectionery company located 170 miles north in Kansas City, Missouri. Oh, okay. Wow. A cracker company.

Starting point is 00:19:30 That was an interesting proposition. Both brothers no doubt knew the popularity of crackers while running their dry goods stores. If they could pull this off, they could make some serious dough. Huh. Do you have a question? I mean, I, hmm. Well, I thought they didn't do business well together, so they, they, but it must have been okay-ish.

Starting point is 00:19:56 Sorry, Jacob went into business with his older brother, David. Okay. That didn't work out. Okay, different brother. Different brother. Gotcha. Okay. So now Jacob's talking with Joseph.

Starting point is 00:20:07 Okay. I forgot there are seven billion kids in this family. Yeah, and I apologize. I should have made it a little more clear. Yeah. Mm-hmm. But instead, you just did all the. Hooky puns.

Starting point is 00:20:17 Which everyone appreciates. The coral cracker and confectionery company had fallen on some hard times recently, mostly due to an absolutely horrific accident at their factory building, located at Second and Maine in downtown Kansas City. Should I be looking this up? No. Oh, okay. You know I let you know when to look stuff up.

Starting point is 00:20:39 Okay, okay, okay. Is this where the blood comes in? Oh, yeah. Oh, no. So three years earlier, in November of 1879, the roof of the factory had collapsed, which caused a boiler to explode. Oh. An estimated 30 to 50 workers, all women were trapped inside screaming covered in flames. Oh, God.

Starting point is 00:21:03 In total, seven women died. Nine were seriously injured. Factory work at this time, even in cracker factories, was dangerous, and unsanitary. And sadly, mostly poor women worked in these factories. Yeah. And if you're wondering how the roof collapsed, somebody decided to knock out big old holes in the wall in load-bearing walls to make traveling between the factory buildings easier. Oh, good grief. Yeah. The owner of the company, Joseph Coral, was absolutely horrified by the incident.

Starting point is 00:21:39 but he was also getting old, he was suffering from some sort of illness, and so in 1882, Joseph Coral sold his Cracker company to Joseph and Jacob Luce. The Luce Brothers got a hell of a deal on this company. But it took him a while to rebuild and get things going again. But by 1889, they had officially changed the name of the company to the Luce Brothers Manufacturing Company, and they were one of the largest bakers in the Midwest region. Did you never heard of that story? Never.

Starting point is 00:22:11 Yeah. Never. And that's wild, that that is local and that's, that's a huge tragedy. Yes. I was reading old newspaper articles about it. And initial estimates were like 25 women dead. Yeah. But as more articles came out, they learned the actual deaths.

Starting point is 00:22:29 But it's just like, man, what a tragedy. And very preventable. Yes. Oddly, this is the second story I have read from Kansas City history. where somebody knocked out a load-bearing wall and the building collapsed. What's the other one? During the Civil War, they had a woman's prison in downtown Kansas City. And the story is there was a brothel next door,

Starting point is 00:22:57 and some of the soldiers on duty knocked a hole in the load-bearing wall to get to the brothel next door so they could sneak in. Oh. And it caused the woman's prison to collapse several. women died, and that is why Confederate bushwhackers raided Lawrence. They were so pissed that the women's prison collapsed. Norman, if you had said to me, I want you to guess what tangent will go on in a story about Oreos. I would have never thought we'd go here, but that is fascinating.

Starting point is 00:23:32 I know. Future topic? Yeah. I wrote a whole paper about it in grad school. All right. It was really interesting. That's not the only reason they raided Lawrence. I know the Confederate bushwackers were looking for any excuse to raid Lawrence, but that is what they said was the reason.

Starting point is 00:23:45 One of the main reasons, anyway. Man. Yeah. Oreos and the Confederacy, a match made in heaven. The Confederacy's favorite cooking. No, just kidding. That's right. So, the Loose Brothers Manufacturing Company.

Starting point is 00:24:02 They were one of the largest bakers in the region, but even so, competition was fierce and ever-changing. The urban core was growing more and more every year. Machinery was advancing. Bakers were fighting for every piece of territory they could get. But there were, of course, limitations. You know, most of these baked goods, they just didn't last that long. It was hard to keep products fresh.

Starting point is 00:24:26 But in 1890, a collection of bakers from around the Midwest, including the Loose Brothers, came up with a solution. The best course of action was to... Over cookies. Oh. So they wanted to form a big corporation and just work together. They said, hey, let's stick together like dough and make all of us richer. We will be a batch made in heaven. I'm surprised you didn't go for the make all the dough joke.

Starting point is 00:25:04 I've already done a make all the dough joke. Okay, okay. Yeah, you're fresh. You're original. You've got preservatives keeping you going here. I appreciate it. I'm like a fresh loaf of bread. But, oof, that was kind of complicated to set up a corporation with multiple companies in different states, you know.

Starting point is 00:25:20 They're going to need a lawyer to help set all this up. And so they reached out to a prominent Chicago lawyer named Adolphus Green. Remember that name, Kristen. Okay, I will. Adolphus Green was the business law guy of Chicago. He was also a very busy man. He mingled with other big-time lawyers. Like Clarence Darrow ever heard of them?

Starting point is 00:25:44 Uh-huh, I have. Adolphus Green was also the attorney for the Chicago Board of Trade. He also had eight children. So yeah, busy man. Okay. But those Midwest bakers knew if anyone could help them set up this baker trust, it was Adolphus Green. For what it's worth, Adolphus Green knew absolutely nothing about the baking business. Okay.

Starting point is 00:26:07 But he was a curious hoe, and he did his homework. And he learned the business very, very quickly. And later that year in 1890, 35 bakeries, mostly in the Midwest, formed the American Biscuit and Manufacturing Company. Kristen, this was an all-star lineup of bakers. Are you ready to hear some of the players? Yes. Leading off, we have, of course, the Loose Brothers Manufacturing Company of Kansas City, Missouri. Batting second is the SS Marvin Bakery of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

Starting point is 00:26:40 Famous for their hit product, the oyster cracker. Oh, okay. And in the cleanup spot, the one you've been waiting for, it's the Summer Richardson Baking Company of St. Joseph, Missouri. They were hitting home runs in the cracker market with their hit product, saltine crackers. Oh! Wait, are saltines from St. Joe, Missouri?

Starting point is 00:27:02 They are. What? They called them premium saltine crackers. Indeed, they did. Their name came from the premium blue ribbon they won at the Buchanan County Fair for their crackers. Oh my gosh. Fun fact. Wow.

Starting point is 00:27:19 Wow. You can still buy premium saltine crackers today. But not at Costco. Not at Costco. That's right. Say yeah, the box with the big, bold blue lettering. That is premium salting crackers and it dates all the way back to the 1870s in St. Joseph, Missouri. Folks, the only reason I'm excited about this is because, like, all of the...

Starting point is 00:27:39 my dad's side of the family is from Buchanan County, Missouri. There are five last names up there. I'm inbred with all of them. Did you say inbred? Oh, beautiful. See, I didn't catch that because of all the inbreeding. This is a fun-filled episode. So, yeah, the bakers of the Midwest are now unified.

Starting point is 00:28:04 And together, they advanced their manufacturing methods. They expanded their territories. and as a result, money poured into their bank accounts like a smooth, buttery cake batter. But as their footprint expanded, they started encroaching into other giant baking company territory, specifically the New York Biscuit Company. Think of it like this. The American Biscuit Company represented the West, aka Death Row Records, aka Tupac and Shook Knight.

Starting point is 00:28:36 And the New York Biscuit Company at the East, aka Bad Boy Records, aka Biggie Smalls and Puff Daddy. Do you get it now? I do get it now. Thank you. This, Kristen, was the beginning of The Biscuit Wars. According to the book, Out of the Cracker Barrel, quote, The ammunition was not bullets or bayonets, but graham crackers, lady fingers, lemon drops, oatmeal cookies, oyster crackers, pretzels, and ginger snaps. This is ridiculous.

Starting point is 00:29:13 Each corporation released new products to entice consumers. They opened more and more factories in each other's territories. But the biggest battle came with pricing. This was a race to the bottom. During this seven-year fight, cookie and biscuit prices dropped by as much as 45%. Wow! That's a low price! That is a low price. What happened?

Starting point is 00:29:39 It was just competition. It was like, our cookies are cheaper. No, ours are cheaper, actually. Wait, now ours are cheaper. Okay. Joseph and Jacob Luce were on the front lines of this war. As one of the largest bakeries in the Midwest region, they had a lot of power in the American Biscuit Company.

Starting point is 00:29:57 Both brothers served on the board and in some high-level executive role within the company. But the pressure of it all got to Jacob Luce. Not only was the business extremely stressful, but so was his personal life. He and his wife Ella, they had always wanted children, and they had two children, but sadly both died in infancy. Oh. And it took a huge toll on them.

Starting point is 00:30:23 And so in 1897, Jacob Luce resigned. But he kept his seat on the board. And with his cracker fortunes, he and Ella left for England for some much-needed rest and relaxation. So by 1897, the biscuit war was getting a little ridiculous. I mean, how much lower could prices get? The great news is when stuff like this happens, consumers win. Yeah, that's true.

Starting point is 00:30:49 Yeah. So Adolphus Green, who is the legal counsel for the American Biscuit Company, he knew that like something had to give. This cannot go on. Luckily, he had a little insider baseball knowledge to change everything. I'm not going to get into the weeds too much on this, but basically here's what happened. One of the leaders of the New York Biscuit Company, he ran another company called the Diamond Match Company, who's the largest match company in the United States.

Starting point is 00:31:18 And the stock for both of these companies, it was extremely overinflated, thanks to speculation. But eventually, the bubble burst. People lost confidence, and they began unloading their stocks from both companies. and Adolphus Green knew that the leadership at the New York Biscuit Company was crumbling under the pressure. They were willing to play ball to get out of this crisis. So Adolphus Green went to them with a suggestion. He was like, hey, guys, why don't we just merge our companies together? Let's stop this buttery, flaky biscuit war.

Starting point is 00:31:53 Let's end the competition. Let's control our prices. Let's make this national. In Adolphus Green's words, the companies were, quote, ripe for unification. And so in 1898, the American Biscuit Company and the New York Biscuit Company merged to become the National Biscuit Company. You may know them today as Nabisco. Yeah, that's what I was wondering. Fun fact, Kristen. Wow. Wow.

Starting point is 00:32:25 One of Nabisco's earliest investors was a man named Robert Todd Lincoln. Oh. And it made him a shitload of money. Good for him. Yeah. I mean, Yeah, good for him after going through his father's assassination, James Garfield's assassination, William McKinley's assassination. Wait, William McKinley's hasn't happened yet. Norm, you are so weird. Why?

Starting point is 00:32:51 You know, it's a shame he had to be there for all those assassinations. At least he made some cookie money. Jeez, you hate to see that. That's such a good Colombo impression. Oh, man. You know, the 90-year-old women who are listening, who love their hydrox and love their. Columbo are just wanting to shake your hand, young man.

Starting point is 00:33:10 I love you, Norby, C. So, Kristen, this merger was a big, big deal. The Chicago Tribune called it, quote, the biggest deal in Chicago financial history. The newly formed National Biscuit Company, aka Nabisco, controlled 114 bakeries across the country, and they could produce 360 million pounds of baked goods annually. So leaders from both companies, they are thrilled with this merger, Kristen.

Starting point is 00:33:43 And for his efforts, Adolphus Green became chairman of the board at Nabisco. You know, I mentioned earlier that Adolphus Green was a very curious hoe. And after forming Nabisco, he kind of became obsessed with the industry. His law practice fell to the wayside. He spent a ton of time looking for ways to improve the business. So he visited dry goods stores all across the country, where his consumers were buying product. He toured factories.

Starting point is 00:34:11 He studied the methods of manufacturing and how everything operated. And ultimately, he came to one major realization. Remember that cracker barrel? Yeah. The one in dry goods stores? They're kind of gross. Ew.

Starting point is 00:34:26 Well, I bet they are. Yeah, so here's a few examples. In a cracker barrel, all the good stuff's on top. You know, it's fresh, it's crisp, But the ones underneath, they get broken, they get soggy, they get dirty. And all those crackers in the open air, they take on the smells of the store. So those crackers start smelling like candy, cigars, tobacco, medicine, sugar, turpentine, mackerel, lamp oil, you know, stinky, stinky lions coming off the crackers.

Starting point is 00:35:00 You know what I mean? I mean, you're focusing on the thing that I'm not even caring about at all, which is like no one's washing their hands at this point in time. Yeah, no one did that. Nobody. They are, if anything, licking their hands, placing it into the cracker barrel, see what comes out and licking it all off. I don't know about that. That's what they're doing.

Starting point is 00:35:20 I mean, no, basically it was like you'd come in and you'd be like, hey, I want, you know, a pound of crackers. And the clerk will, you have probably use his bare hand and put a pound of crackers in a paper bag and give them to you. That's kind of how they were doled out. But, you know, like, when a store clerk, like, swept the floors, all that dust and dirt, it's going to float around the air, and it's probably going to land on those crackers. Allegedly at one dry goods store, a customer complained to a clerk that he saw mice inside the cracker barrel. And the clerk replied, well, that's impossible. Our cat sleeps there every night. Ew.

Starting point is 00:35:53 Oh, my God. So for Adolphus Green, the solution to the cracker barrel was simple. We need a better method of selling our product. And so he asked an associate and fellow lawyer. named Frank Peters to come up with a solution. And Frank Peters did at home on his kitchen table. He came up with a foldable cardboard box that was lined with wax paper. So when you folded the box all up, it made an airtight seal for the baked goods.

Starting point is 00:36:22 And Kristen, this was essentially the birth of modern packaging for groceries. Okay. Nabisco patented it as their inner seal. And this is a huge game changer in the industry. So now crackers and cookies and biscuits, they can be shipped nationwide and they wouldn't spoil. Nabisco premiered this packaging with a new product. It was called Unita Biscuit. The packaging featured a young boy in a raincoat, symbolizing the airtight, moisture-free seal of the box. And Unita Biscuits were a huge success. In the first year alone, Nabisco sold 100 million boxes of them. More unique products followed.

Starting point is 00:37:01 Kristen, you might recognize a few of these. Fing Newton's. Oh, yeah. Nilla Wafers. Uh-huh. And thanks to that inner seal packaging, the possibilities for new cookies, biscuits, and crackers seemed endless. Nabisco was on top of the baking world. Adolphus Green basked in the glory.

Starting point is 00:37:19 He felt like he ruled the industry with an iron fist. And that kind of rubbed a few people the wrong way. People like the Luce brothers, Joseph and Jacob Luce. By 1902, Jacob Luce had recovered. from his illness, and he was back in Kansas City. Allegedly, Jacob was never a fan of the Nabisco merger. He had apparently written letters from England opposing the deal. From my research, I could never really pin down exactly why he was against it.

Starting point is 00:37:49 But his brother Joseph commented to a newspaper that Jacob, quote, had no love for the trust and withdrew. So yeah, Jacob Luce cashed out his Nabisco stock, and he was just sitting on a giant pile of money in Kansas City, basically. Okay. Meanwhile, Joseph Luce kind of hung around. He was running the factory, which was called the Loose Brothers Factory of the National Biscuit Company. But then in March of 1902, everything changed.

Starting point is 00:38:18 That month, Adolphus Green sent Joseph Luce a memo. Please remove all references of the Luce Brothers from your factory. From now on, you will be operating solely under the name National Biscuit Company. Um, hello. Yep. Okay, so I was thinking about this. From a business perspective, I understand what Adolphus Green is wanting to do. He's wanting a consistent branding across all of these factories.

Starting point is 00:38:49 Does he have the authority to do that, though, to make that decision? He's just the attorney that they hired. He's chairman of the board. Oh, shit. And soon to be president of Nabisco. Well, so he does have the authority. Okay, okay. So yeah, I get it from a business perspective, one consistent branding, but Joseph Luce, it was a hit to the old ego.

Starting point is 00:39:12 Yeah, yeah, it would be. How fucking dare Adolphus Green try to erase the Luce Brothers legacy. And that animosity gave birth to a new idea. Jacob came to his brother and was like, see, I told you this merger was a bad idea. And you know what? We should start our own national biscuit company and run it the way we want. Oh. Oh, yeah, fuck Oreos.

Starting point is 00:39:39 Oh, this is how it starts. Mm-hmm. It was a bold idea, Kristen. And precarious. You know, Nabisco had a chokehold on the biscuit industry. Yeah. But you know what they say? Sometimes you got a risket for the biscuit.

Starting point is 00:39:54 I think you're enjoying these puns. I really am, actually. And so, in May of 1902, Joseph Luce resigned and cashed out his Nabisco stock. And together with his brother Jacob and another investor named John Wiles, they formed the Luce Wiles Biscuit Company. In an interview with the Kansas City Times, Joseph Luce commented, quote, We are not reentering the field with the purpose of fighting anybody. But if we are drawn into a fight, we will, of course, do our best. We will be absolutely independent.

Starting point is 00:40:32 So basically he was like, we're just going to be doing our thing and let the chocolate chips fall where they may. No, he's saying bring it on, you skanky bitch. I understand what this man is saying. Yeah, that's true. I like at the end of his statement, he says, we will be absolutely independent. So he is still fuming from Nabisco swinging their peeing around,

Starting point is 00:40:57 being like, you can't use your name. Yeah. The Loose Brothers also announced they were building a brand new state-of-the-art factory located at... Okay. Oh. Sorry. Oh. Actually no longer there.

Starting point is 00:41:09 Norman, that was so rude. It was sadly destroyed by a fire in 1996 by a freaking arsonist. Ah, arson? Arsonist. Yeah. Either one's right? Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:41:22 But if you want to know, its address was 1100 West 8th Street, Kansas City, Missouri. You might see some old-timey photos, I don't know. Oh, man. Well, it looks like a bunch of other old-timey buildings survived, but the arsonist took the cookie building down. That's right, they did. Okay, so now when I say that this factory was state-of-the-art, I am serious, Kristen.

Starting point is 00:41:46 The Loose Brothers purchased proprietary state-of-the-art machines to make all kinds of baked goods. They brought in smokeless stokers. They installed tons of windows to bring in natural sunlight. Because the Loose Brothers wanted their factories to be seen as clean and beautiful. Okay. They wanted to change the public's perception of the standard American factory, which, as I mentioned before, were seen as dirty and unsafe. Their new factory would be six stories tall and employ 800 people.

Starting point is 00:42:18 And it wasn't going to be all new employees, because over the next few months, the Loose brothers were able to lure around 40 high-level Nabisco. employees over to the Luce Wiles Biscuit Company. Okay, I do kind of love that. Back in Chicago, Nabisco President Adolphus Green was furious. He was like, Everybody betrayed me. I fed up with his world. Yes.

Starting point is 00:42:45 He accused Jacob and Joseph Luce of poaching his employees. Well, yeah. Well, the brothers responded that, oh, no, we would never do that. You know, we just have loyal employees from back in the day who really like us. They left on their own accord. So in retaliation, Adolphus Green ordered anyone in his Kansas City Nabisco factory deemed unloyal, fired. Well, how do you determine whether someone's disloyal? Interrogations? I don't know. Which, hey, I guess the Luce brothers will take more employees, I guess. That's what I'm saying. Well, all this to say that

Starting point is 00:43:23 the Biscuit Wars were officially back on. You know, it was kind of interesting because the press, they were really anti-Nabisco during this time. One article commented, quote, It is the policy of the National Biscuit Company to stifle all competition by using every effort to keep its managers and their assistants from going into business. But nothing could stop the Loose Brothers. And on Monday, November 10, 1902, the Loose Wiles Biscuit Company was officially open for business, A parade of 14 bright yellow delivery wagons sent out their first batch of baked goods to stores across the region. With the company in full swing,

Starting point is 00:44:10 Jacob Luce was named President, and he quickly made every effort to match Nabisco every step of the way. So, for example, Nabisco had that inner seal packaging for freshness. Right. Luce Wiles had a blue seal triple protection package. If Nabisco had a factory, in a certain place, Jacob Loose built or purchased one nearby. So Loose Wilde's Biscuit Company had factories in Minneapolis, Dallas, St. Louis, Chicago, Boston, and more.

Starting point is 00:44:42 And their most famous factory was the Thousand Window Factory on Long Island, New York. Located at... Oh, give it to me. 29-10, Thompson Avenue, Long Island, New York. It's a big old building, so you might have to zoom out a little. bit. Good grief. Is it this big white thing? Oh yeah. You zoom out and take a look at that building. It's massive. Wait, how old is? This looks newer to me. It may have had some work done, but that building is from 1912. Okay. Yeah, she's had some work done. Yeah. But we don't judge. The building today is

Starting point is 00:45:19 owned by the LaGuardia Community College. Okay. But when it was first built, the Luceweil's thousand window factory was the largest bakery in the world. And it it would remain the largest bakery in the world until 1955. Damn. Just like their factory in Kansas City, the Luce Brothers prioritized sanitation, modern equipment, and bright natural sunlight.

Starting point is 00:45:44 On their advertisements, they highlighted their manufacturing methods and boasted about using only the freshest ingredients. Wait, now I have a question about setting up shop right next to where Nabisco is setting up shop. Yeah. What's that about?

Starting point is 00:46:00 Just kind of a power move. Like, look at us. We're right here. Ha, ha, ha. You can't get away? It is, it is partially that, probably. Okay. But it's also getting their product into Nabisco territory.

Starting point is 00:46:13 So obviously, the closer a city or town is to a factory, the more of that product there will be. All right. Yeah. The Loose Wiles Biscuit company also put out products to match Nabisco's offerings. For example, Nabisco had, you need a biscuit. Luce Wiles had Take Home a Biscuit. Their ads read, quote, It will seem to you quite funny that it costs so little money.

Starting point is 00:46:36 Surely you can afford to risk it, so don't forget, take home a biscuit. I too like that a lot. Pretty good, huh? It's pretty cute. Nabisco had Fig Newton's. Loose Wiles had fig bars. Okay. Nabisco had Barnum's Animal Crackers.

Starting point is 00:46:54 I like P.T. Barnum. Stop, Kristen. I like P.T. Barnum. I like P.T. Barham. We know. I do not like P.T. Barham. I like some. Well, there's stuff I admire, but mostly no.

Starting point is 00:47:07 No. I like P.T. Barnum. Stop. Interesting. He did some pretty horrible racist things. I know he did, Norman. I like P.T. Barnum. So, yeah, Nabisco had Barnum's animal crackers.

Starting point is 00:47:18 Loose Wiles had simply animal crackers. Nabisco had premium saltine crackers, which we learned are from St. Joseph, Missouri. Kristen's home heritage town. Home heritage town. Your ancestral home is what we'll call it, right? Yes. So Nabisco had premium saltine crackers. Loose Wiles had crispy saltines.

Starting point is 00:47:41 Crispy with a K. You can still get this stuff, right? Yeah. Your mother, Shereira, had a box of crispy saltines in her pantry last weekend. And I was like, ooh. I tell you what, you want to talk about a lady who loves some crackers? Crackers. Sherey has got the crackers.

Starting point is 00:47:59 Yes. Mm-hmm. Nabisco had Zuzuz. What the hell? Ginger snaps. Oh, okay. Luce Wiles had yum-yms. Nabisco had cameos.

Starting point is 00:48:12 Lus Wiles had Vienna Fingers. Oh. But, you know, Luce Wiles came up with their own products, too. I was going to say, this kind of sucks. They're just copying. Well, yeah. I mean, I think there's, there's not a ton of joy in that.

Starting point is 00:48:28 I mean, if you can do your own version and make it better, all right. But if you're just copying what someone else is doing. Yeah. This is kind of the biscuit game, though, you know. Yeah, sure. But, you know, Luce Wiles had their own products, so Luce Wiles had cheese its. Oh. Hmm.

Starting point is 00:48:46 You had a... A swoon. Oh. I've won true love. You do love cheese. Sorry, Norm. I remember growing up, my brother. just loved cheeses.

Starting point is 00:48:57 He loved the green Tabasco-flavored cheeses. Yeah, those are quite good. Oh, my God. He would sit there and eat the whole box watching TV. You got a problem, Norm? On a weeknight. On a weeknight, well, no less. On a Tuesday.

Starting point is 00:49:12 Yeah. Would it have been more acceptable on a Sunday on the Lord's Day if he'd eaten all the cheez-its? On the toilet blowing up on a Tuesday. Sounds like you're just jealous that Ryan ate all those cheez-its. I mean, you know, Yeah, maybe I wanted some. My mom bought them, and he just sat there and ate all of them. What about me?

Starting point is 00:49:32 Did he not share, Norm? Not really. Wow. So yeah, Loose Wiles had Cheez-Itz-Nibis-Hexe had cheese nips. Remember cheese-nips? Yeah, yeah. I don't think they're around anymore. Cheese-its have kind of taken over that game.

Starting point is 00:49:47 Stumped the cheese nips. But, Kristen, Luce Wiles Biscuit Company's greatest creation, without a doubt, came in the year of our LERD, 1908. That year, the Luce Brothers were brainstorming new ideas. And one thing they kept coming back to was chocolate. You know, chocolate was getting more and more popular, thanks to cocoa beans becoming more widely available in global trade. And the Luce Wilesbiscuit Company was already making regular chocolates.

Starting point is 00:50:19 But what if there was a chocolate cookie? So they came up with an idea. They took two dark chocolate wafers, made with, quote, the entire cocoa bean. It gave the cookie a rich, bitter, dark flavor. And between those two wafers, they smeared on a sweet vanilla cream center, made with, quote, the highest grade extract of vanilla and real butter. And this was the very first chocolate sandwich cookie. That is delicious. I mean, it sounds really good, honestly.

Starting point is 00:50:54 Because it sounds like it was actually made with good ingredients. Yeah, the highest quality ingredients and... The freshest ingredients. But now all it needed was a name. And that's when it hit them. The perfect name. Hydrox biscuits. That sounds awful.

Starting point is 00:51:18 I agree. Why Hydrox? Yes, Kristen, you might be wondering why the Loose Brothers chose such a, terrible name for their cookie. Well, once again, context is here to save the day. In 1908, the year Hydrox was born, Americans were now officially horrified by the sanitary conditions of food manufacturing. Upton Sinclair's novel, The Jungle, brought these problems to the forefront. Although, fun fact, Upton Sinclair's purpose was actually to highlight the plight of the factory worker, not the sanitary conditions of the factory.

Starting point is 00:51:56 Right. But regardless, Americans were right to be disgusted. There were basically zero standards for sanitation. Getting sick from food was far more common in those days. Food manufacturers could basically do whatever the fudge they wanted. You know, Coca-Cola famously had cocaine in their soda. Some products had traces of alcohol and heroin. Some companies added insane ingredients to cut costs.

Starting point is 00:52:24 so food had stuff like chalk and brick dust, borax formaldehyde. And in response to the outcry, the U.S. government passed the 1906 Pure Food and Drug Act that required accurate ingredient labels and led to the establishment of the Food and Drug Administration. So now that you know all of that, let's go back to the Loose Brothers naming their chocolate sandwich cookie. They wanted a name that seemed pure and natural. and what is more pure and natural than water. Okay. Water is made up of hydrogen and oxygen.

Starting point is 00:53:01 Combine those elements and you get hydrox. Did it hit differently back then? Yes. Okay. Well, then that's all we need to know, I guess. So yeah, you hear that name today, hydrox, and you're thinking... What the fuck? Yes.

Starting point is 00:53:17 But back in 1908, that was a good name. That was something that would get people's attention. They had their finger on the pulse. Okay. Yes. Hydrox hit store shelves that year, and it was advertised as, quote, the aristocrat of cookies. You eat them on special occasions or at fancy high-end hotels. Wow. Okay.

Starting point is 00:53:40 The design of the cookie definitely screamed fancy, because in the cookie it had filigree, flowers, and olive branches surrounding the word hydrox in the center. Luce Wiles Biscuit Company suggested eating hydrox with coffee or a cup of tea. It was the quote, all-around dessert biscuit. But wait a minute, said some consumers. Isn't hydrox full of sugar? Should I be feeding my children this?

Starting point is 00:54:07 The Luce Wiles Biscuit Company was like, well, yeah, of course! When your children beg you for something sweet between meals, why not give them hydrox? And by the way, science now recognizes the need of young systems for sweet foods as a requisite to increasing mental activity. Hydrox biscuits combine this sweetness with many other nutritious properties. But don't take our word for it. Look at our market research on a plate of assorted cookies.

Starting point is 00:54:36 People reached for Hydrox first three out of five times. So come try the most popular high-grade biscuit in the country today! Kristen, what do you think? Is Hydrox going to be a hit for the Loose Wiles Biscuit Company? Hell yeah. Oh, you are correct. Yep, Hydrox were a big hit. People could not get enough of that dark chocolatey wafer and sweet vanilla cream.

Starting point is 00:55:09 It was love at first bite. They were flying off store shelves. In a matter of months, Hydrox was easily Luce Wiles' best-selling biscuit and had, quote, secured more new customers than any other biscuit. However, I do want to mention another thing that the Loosewiles Biscuit Company did that probably contributed to Hydrox's success. Because around this same time, Jacob Loose decided to sell their products under a new name, Sunshine Biscuits. Okay, there we go. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:55:46 That's what I kept wondering about. I can just see that Sunshine Biscuits logo. Oh, with the little chef? Yeah, yeah. So did you know Luce Wiles was Sunshine Biscuits? No, I'm not deep into this like you are. I just know like Sunshine Biscuits. Like that's a name I'd heard of and you're naming all the hits here.

Starting point is 00:56:06 So I was like, play that funky music, White Boy was what I was thinking. And I am a white boy. There you go. Yeah, so this is the birth of Sunshine Biscuits. Jacob Luce chose Sunshine Biscuits. skits for several reasons. Number one, sunshine was healthy, natural, bright. And in a market where consumers were demanding fresh, clean, wholesome food, sunshine seemed like the perfect name. Number two, Luce Wiles factories were known for their many, many windows that let in fresh sunshine.

Starting point is 00:56:38 And finally, number three, sunshine was what Jacob Luce called his wife, Ella. Oh, that's sweet. That's sweet. Yeah. Interestingly, none of the sources I read mentioned the name change contributing to Hydrox's success. And they had the dates, like, totally wrong for when they became Sunshine Biscuit Company. But I was able to nail it down. Like, they released Hydrox, and then literally right after they became Sunshine Biscuit Company.

Starting point is 00:57:12 Yeah, this is a brilliant move. Yes. That time period before the creation of the FDA, it was disgusting. Yes. It was absolutely disgusting and people were horrified by what they learned. And so, yeah, this name is perfect. It is. I mean, do you want to buy cookies from Sunshine Biscuits or the Loose Wiles Biscuit Company?

Starting point is 00:57:35 I'm going with Sunshine Biscuits. I'm going sunshine. Sounds like a delicious brunch place. It does, doesn't it? Mm-hmm. Free idea. Anyone listening? You wanted to start a brunch business?

Starting point is 00:57:48 Guaranteed it's already taken. It's too good. It's too good, Norm. It is. I mean, it's like, do you want to go to painless dentistry, or do you want to go to painful dentistry? Which dentist are you going to? Let me think.

Starting point is 00:57:59 So yeah, kudos to Jacob Luce for that name change. You might say he was one smart cookie. No. The success of Hydrox catapulted sunshine biscuits to second place in the baking industry, with $12 million in annual sales. By comparison, Nabisco Rained Suarez. They had $45 million in the annual cities.

Starting point is 00:58:22 Okay, yep, yep. Now, that seems like a huge gap, and it is, but Sunshine Biscuits had momentum. And Wall Street seemed very impressed by Sunshine Biscuits. Things were looking very promising for them. A headline in the United States investor publication read, Exchange National for Loose Wiles? Question mark? Experts said that investors should

Starting point is 00:58:47 Get that sunshine biscuit stock Was that a Is that Backstreet boys? Norman Caruso You're trolling me And I fell for it so hard The Loose brothers Reaped the rewards

Starting point is 00:59:04 Of their success Jacob and Ella bought themselves a fabulous summer home In Gloucester, Massachusetts And thank God I looked up How to say the name of that town I was suspicious right away Gloucester

Starting point is 00:59:18 I thought it was Gloucester. Uh-huh. Gloucester. But that's not all, Kristen. Jacob and Ella Luce built themselves a mansion in Kansas City. Located at... Oh, my God. Yes.

Starting point is 00:59:29 101 East Armour Boulevard, Kansas City, Missouri. Oh, yeah. You know this house? Hang on. Let me get a gander at it. Oh, God, I pulled too far away. God, that is gorgeous. Beautiful brick mansion.

Starting point is 00:59:48 Is it a Georgian-style mansion? I think so. Damn. Yeah, isn't that pretty? They got that corner lot. Yeah. They got one of those. You wouldn't really call it a circle drive, although in a sense it is, but it's got the circle drive with the cover over it.

Starting point is 01:00:06 The little carport overhang. Don't call it a carport. You're offending the old-timey rich people. It's got a carriage house. Yeah. Yep. This was my. Money, money, money, money.

Starting point is 01:00:21 Hydrox. It's Hydrox money right there. So today that building is a wedding venue. But in its heyday, this was the social spot for the upper class socialites of Kansas City, as well as military heroes and freaking royalty. Queen Marie of Romania stopped by with her children one time. Oh, okay. Ella Luce loved to host parties in this house.

Starting point is 01:00:45 In honor of his business success and the love of his life, Jacob Luce had woodworkers carve an elegant S on his mahogany staircase. The S stood for sunshine. Oh, that's sweet. Meanwhile, Nabisco President Adolphus Green was probably seeing everyone eating Hydrox cookies and screaming,

Starting point is 01:01:08 Put that cookie down! Now! Those mother-fudgeon loose brothers they were really making Adolphus Green shit itch. Nabisco status as the top dog of the baking industry was now at risk. And if something wasn't done soon, sunshine biscuits could soon overtake them. And so Adolphus Green poured resources into fighting back. He personally oversaw the creation of a brand new Nabisco factory in Kansas City.

Starting point is 01:01:41 Wow. At the opening ceremony, Adolphus Green declared it was the, most modern bakery in the country. The cleanest anyone has ever seen. And hey, fellas, check out the ladies that work here. Aren't they sexy? Ew. Adolphus.

Starting point is 01:01:57 Sexy times. Come on. Yeah, for real. He was like, we have some good-looking ladies working here. But, you know, the bigger problem was Hydrox. That damn cookie was everywhere. So Adolphus Green asked his cookie experts to make a community. competing product. And so Nabisco scientists came up with a clone, two chocolate wafers with a sweet

Starting point is 01:02:21 vanilla cream center, and they called it a Oreo. Oreo. It's sort of a mystery how they came up with the name Oreo. But there are a few theories. Oreo is a Greek word meaning beautiful. Perhaps they were saying this is a beautiful cookie. The Greek word Oro means hill or mountain. And during the Testing phase, Oreos originally were dome-shaped. So maybe it came from that. Some say it was a combination of the words chocolate and cream. So you take the re from cream and put it between the O's and chocolate, Oreo. What do you think?

Starting point is 01:03:02 I think the real answer has been lost to time because none of these really is that compelling. So one of the books I used as a source, it's called Out of the Cracker Barrel, the Nabisco story. An amazing title. Almost as good as the truth. The truth of companion to the Bible. Yeah. Yeah, both bestsellers. Yes.

Starting point is 01:03:22 That book was actually commissioned by Nabisco. And so I was like, okay, if I'm going to learn where the word Oreo comes from, it's got to be from this book. But even that book was like, we don't really know. So truly, it has been lost the time, I think. All right. Either way, Nabisco created the Oreo and it hit store shelves in March of VIII. 1912, four years after Hydrox. And you want to talk about a copycat product, Kristen.

Starting point is 01:03:51 The Oreo cookie design featured a wreath, filigree, and the word Oreo in the center, just like Hydrox. In their advertisements, Nabisco claimed Oreos were, quote, exquisite in taste as an appearance. They were a fancy cookie, just like Hydrox. They also had an oddly threatening advertisement that read, quote, If you want to keep everyone happy, serve Oreo sandwiches. Doesn't that seem a little like... I love it. I love it. You got to try all the tactics.

Starting point is 01:04:26 If you don't want me to blow this building up, serve Oreo sandwiches. Give me a damn Oreo. All right, Kristen, what do you think? Were Oreos a hit? Could they match the success of Hydrox? Probably not. Eh? What do you mean? Eh. Me.

Starting point is 01:04:51 Yeah, I mean, it's a copycat product. Yeah, believe it or not, Oreos did not immediately become a huge success like Hydrox. In fact, I found a newspaper ad from 1914 where a store owner was complaining that they had too many damn Oreos. Oh, that's rude. Just eat them.

Starting point is 01:05:08 He'd be 800 pounds if he ate all these Oreos. Honey, do you want to tell the people, you bought Oreos for this episode last week and you and I got into them and then you were like, hey, we got to stop because I'm doing this episode and I was like, when are we recording? We're recording next Thursday.

Starting point is 01:05:25 There's no way. They will not survive. They will not survive. We're just going to have to buy more Oreos. We didn't go to the newspapers and complain. Well, this guy did. We're heroes. We should have contacted the star.

Starting point is 01:05:37 Yeah, we should have been like, excuse me, we've got a real problem on our hands. So the owner of this store wrote, quote, while we sold a few, they didn't move anything like we expected. It's simply a case of your not knowing what a fine biscuit delicacy they are. Oh. It's you.

Starting point is 01:05:54 Hello. You're the problem. It's you. Boy, that article went all kinds of ways I wasn't expecting. First of all, I thought it was weird that he was complaining. And then I think it's weird to be like, excuse me, consumer, you're a moron. These old-timey grocery store ads. It's like a Facebook profile sometimes.

Starting point is 01:06:13 Wait, so this was an ad? Yeah. So it was like, you know, bananas, five cents, meat. And then he just rambles about Oreos and how he has like 700 tins of them. And the problem is the customers don't know how good of a biscuit it really is. Buddy, how about you open one up, let people sample, and then see what happens. He's writing status updates in his grocery store at. He's like, you know, can of mackerel, 10 cents.

Starting point is 01:06:39 The wife and I are getting divorced. What's the story behind that? Wasn't there some YouTube or you? Oh, yeah. I was watching, it's some YouTube channel. The guy like cleans houses for a living, like hoarding situations. Yeah. And he like narrates during it.

Starting point is 01:06:57 And like in the middle of one of these cleaning videos, he was like, by the way, guys, just want to let you know, me and the wife, we're getting divorced. And I was like, whoa, I was not expecting that. Because usually he comments on like what he's cleaning, what products he's using. came out of left field. You had your thoughts. I was like, I know that man's pain. I once had to announce, I'm no longer friends with this person.

Starting point is 01:07:18 I know that man's YouTube comment section. It had to have been filled with, How's the wife, Hebelah? And he just was like, here's how I'm going to do it. I'm going to just drop this bomb in the middle here. I think he was cleaning a bathtub when he was like, by the way, guys, me and the wife, we're no longer together. Norm, I respect the hell out of it.

Starting point is 01:07:38 So yeah, Oreos not like a smashing success when they first come out. The problem was Hydrox had a four-year head start. You know, they had established themselves as the chocolate sandwich cookie. Oreo would have to play ketchup. And as a result, the biscuit wars would drag on for years. Over the next several decades, the battle for cookie supremacy waged. supposedly Jacob Luce was not too happy about Oreos. But honestly, I'm like, come on, dude, you guys were copying Nabisco products all the live-long day, you know?

Starting point is 01:08:22 All in the game, yo. All in the game. It's all in the game, Kristen. I am glad you provided that context because I was very mad at Oreo when I just knew the fact of Hydrox coming out four years beforehand. But no, they were copying everything. Yeah, everybody was copying everybody. But sadly, the generals on both sides of the biscuit wars wouldn't live long enough to see how it all played out.

Starting point is 01:08:47 In 1917, Adolphus Green passed away at the age of 74. His business instincts and legal prowess helped make Nabisco the number one bakery in the nation. In 1919, Jacob Luce fell seriously ill. He had no choice but to step down from Sunshine Biscuits. his brother Joseph took over as president. But then in 1922, Joseph Luce died from a heart attack, alone in his room at the Hotel Mulebach in downtown Kansas City. He was 79 years old.

Starting point is 01:09:22 In his will, he left millions to charities and to the Kansas City factory workers at the Sunshine Biscuit Company. That's cool. That is. Meanwhile, Jacob Luce rested at his summer home in Gloucester, But as chairman of the board at Sunshine, he regularly came back to Kansas City. In the winter of 1922, the Kansas City star interviewed Jacob Loose about his life. Jacob said he was proud of his work.

Starting point is 01:09:51 He had helped build some of the largest bakeries in the country. He took major risks with his brother to compete against the top dogs. He felt like he had done just about everything. He'd traveled the world twice. He'd gone to Europe 16 times. but he always found a way back to Kansas City. Jacob Luce stated, I want to see a million people in Kansas City 20 years from now.

Starting point is 01:10:15 I think it's the best town of its size in business and progressiveness in the United States, and I want to see it stay that way as it grows larger. But there was also a tinge of sadness in his words. When the Kansas City star asked Jacob, if he had any hobbies, he replied, I have none. I have been wrapped up in business all my life. which made me sad.

Starting point is 01:10:39 Yeah. But still, no regerts. No regerts. That's regrets, by the way. Yes. Nine months later, Jacob Luce passed away. He was 73 years old. And like his brother Joseph, Jacob also left millions to charity.

Starting point is 01:10:57 That was not surprising at all, though. Jacob and his wife Ella were always very charitable. Jacob helped start up the Children's Mercy Hospital. They bought shoes for orphans every year during the holidays and gave each of them a dollar to spend on, quote, foolishness. Their fortune helped launch the Greater Kansas City Community Foundation, which is still operating today. But Jacob and Ella Luce saved their best donation for last.

Starting point is 01:11:27 In 1927, Ella Luce donated 80 acres of land to the city of Kansas City to quote, never be built on and always enjoyed, a restful place, particularly for children. And today, Kristen, we know it as Loose Park. And no park would be complete without a plaque. Specifically, there is a bronze statue of the man himself, Jacob Loose. A plaque below the statue reads, presented to Kansas City by Ella Clark Luce and cherished memory of her husband.

Starting point is 01:12:00 Hmm. Did you have any idea, Loose Park? Okay, I'm trying to think back because for Let's Go to Court, I did, God, my ADHD, I tell a story and once I'm done telling it, she's gone from the old memory. But this was years ago I did a story about some murder in the Loose family, and I feel like I might have touched on this, but I don't remember anything to do with biscuits. I think you're thinking of Swope. I am.

Starting point is 01:12:31 I'm sorry, thank you. I'm thinking of a different part. There's more than one park, not to brag to you people. Okay, no, I didn't know this. Yeah. That's incredible. Loose Park is named after Jacob Loose. I'll be honest.

Starting point is 01:12:44 Anytime I see a park or anything that's named after somebody, I'm like, oh, some old rich guy. Okay, great. Hats off too, am I guess. Usually it's some old rich guy. Well, it's always some old rich guy. And I did not think that there would be anything fascinating like cookies involved. That's right. There's Hydrox cookies buried.

Starting point is 01:13:04 out Luce Park. There should be. Can you find them? The Loose Brothers and Adolphus Green may have been gone, but the Biscuit Wars were only just beginning. Under new leadership, both sides tried to one up the other. In 1924, the Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America approached Sunshine Biscuits and suggested that they should make their products kosher certified.

Starting point is 01:13:29 That was very appealing to Sunshine because they learned that at an abyssabstabstabstabstabst, and they learned that at Nabisco, Oreo made their cream filling using lard, which was not kosher. Hydrox uses butter. And so many of Sunshine Biscuits products, including Hydrox, were made kosher certified. You can serve them up at Passover, Hanukkah, or your cousin's bar mitzvah. Meanwhile, Oreo tried a new flavor. In the 1920s, they introduced a lemon cream filling Oreo. It was pretty good, but it didn't really take off and it got discontinued.

Starting point is 01:14:07 In the decades that followed, Nabisco maintained their position as the number one baker in the nation. They had way more factories. They had way more money, way more advertising. It's only natural. But there was that Hydrox cookie. They could never seem to win the chocolate cream-filled cookie battle. When it came to those, Hydrox was always the answer. And Sunshine Biscuits was very proud of that.

Starting point is 01:14:34 It was always their number one cookie. Their advertisements regularly declared Hydrox was, quote, the original, finest ever made. And that worked. But, you know, elsewhere, other problems were brewing, like an old unsweet iced tea on a two-hour road trip. What are you trying to say, Norm? Just saying, an old unsweet iced tea could cause problems. I agree. I agree. It could stop a hero in her tracks. It could. That's right. It could lead to much embarrassment on the side of the road.

Starting point is 01:15:11 Sunshine Biscuit suffered from a lack of leadership. They had a regular rotating cast of people in and out as president. There were labor strikes. Sales declined. But the big change really came in the 1950s. because by then the name Hydrox just seemed kind of weird. Yeah. Honestly, it sounded more like a cleaning product than a cookie. It does. Which is funny because that's what made it so good when it started out that it sounded so clean. It sounded clean, pure, and natural.

Starting point is 01:15:45 So, like, that name was great for its time. Yeah. But by the 50s, it doesn't work anymore. It didn't stand the test of time. That's right. And to no one's surprise, there were other non-cookie products named Hydrox on the market. There was Hydrox ginger ale. There was Hydrox hydrogen peroxide.

Starting point is 01:16:08 There was Hydrox ice cream. But Sunshine Biscuits marketing remained stubborn. Don't be fooled by lookalikes. Only Sunshine makes Hydrox the original cream-filled chocolate cookie. Meanwhile, the folks at Nabisco, they came up with something new for Oreo. And I got to say, it was pretty damn smart. Kristen, I think you're really going to appreciate this. You're a big fan of marketing. Yeah. Is why you love PT Barnum. So here's the first thing they did. They ever so slightly, just a little bit, increased the price of Oreos.

Starting point is 01:16:47 Uh-huh. Just a tiny bit. Just make them a little more expensive than Hydrox. Oh, boy. I can already tell. I'm going to love it. She's blushing. I do love it. Why did they do that, Kristen? Because sometimes when you raise the price on something, it gives people the impression, well, this must be better. Yes. That's right.

Starting point is 01:17:10 People all of a sudden saw Oreo on the store shelves, and they saw it was just a little more expensive. Yeah. And people thought, well, it must be the better cookie. It costs more money. And so Hydrox started getting a reputation as the budget cookie. Yeah. Oh, that.

Starting point is 01:17:28 That's diabolical. It's so fascinating to me. I feel like a lot of people think the answer is a sale. By the way, our Patreon is on sale right now. 50% off. Your first month. We're the budget Patreon. Yeah, your first month on pig butter.

Starting point is 01:17:44 This is fascinating. Yeah, and you don't, you raise the price just enough so that it won't really matter to people. Right. It was like 10 cents more, maybe 25 cents more. Yeah, it would have to be. it would have to be not enough to make anyone say, well, that's too expensive, but just enough to be like, oh, I can go for the better one. Yeah. This is obviously better.

Starting point is 01:18:07 It's obviously the fancier cookie. And then Nabisco changed their advertising. You know, Hydrox was always claiming, we're the original chocolate sandwich cookie. You've got to have the original, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Mm-hmm. So Nabisco said, well, original means old-fashioned. Yeah. Oreos are new.

Starting point is 01:18:27 Oreos are exciting. Yeah. They are for young people. They are for children. Yeah. So Nabisco's new Oreo ads focused exclusively on the child's experience of eating an Oreo. So you would see ads of a smiling, happy kid, licking the cream center with the words, open up an Oreo and take a lick.

Starting point is 01:18:49 There were other fun slogans. O-O Oreo, Twist, Lick, Dunk. for the kid and all of us Milk's favorite cookie That's the best one I think Yeah I'm gonna play a few TV commercials now

Starting point is 01:19:04 Okay So in TV commercials Eating an Oreo Almost became like A fun activity Yeah For a kid Because a kid

Starting point is 01:19:14 Who'd eat them That save the chocolate cookie outsides What year was that from? 195 Okay, okay Yeah And then there was

Starting point is 01:19:25 Hydrox Yes Sunshine Hydrox, the original cream-filled chocolate cookie. Oh, yeah. Everybody loves them. Two crisp chocolate cookies with a vanilla cream filling. They're the finest ever made. Get Sunshine Hydrox cookies today.

Starting point is 01:19:41 Yeah. So which one's more fun? Oh my gosh, there's no question. Oreos. Yeah. Well, Sunshine Biscuits quickly saw the error of their ways, and they tried to pivot to the kiddos. So they started making new ads featuring a kid opening up a lunchbox with the words, school days are Hydrox days.

Starting point is 01:19:59 Or how about a crying baby bear wearing a bow tie whining, somebody's been eating my hidewarks? No good? I almost, I mean, okay, I never went into marketing. I was in PR, but I just, I almost feel like this is again trying to do the exact same thing someone else is doing. I feel like the lesson could be pick a group and go after that group. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:20:24 The thing I heard in that sunshine ad was everybody loves them. Yeah. And that is so amateur. That is amateur hour. Ooh. It is. It's amateur hour to be like, we're trying to get everyone. Okay.

Starting point is 01:20:39 You're an idiot. You're not getting everyone. Pick a group. Go after that group. Yeah. Yeah. And that's where I think Nabisco succeeded because they're like children. Yes.

Starting point is 01:20:52 We want children to demand. Oreos from their parents. Also, I'm assuming this is still around the same time period where there's this guilt placed on women who aren't baking their own cookies, who aren't doing their own. It's the 1950s, so yeah, I'm sure that's still a factor here. So sneaky marketing, this is a gift to your kids. This is a wonderful thing for your kids. You're a good mom if you're doing this. Oh, this is gross. I could have been. I didn't even play that part of the Oreo commercial. Oh, really?

Starting point is 01:21:28 Norman, did I predict it? It mentions, like, what wonderful mothers give Oreos to their kids. I cut that part out because it was too long. Because you didn't understand what they were doing to us. Because I'm a dumb cracker. Oh, man. So, yeah, Hydrox is now trying to pivot to children. And their most promising idea came in the late 60s.

Starting point is 01:21:52 They came up with a new advertising campaign, and it featured a cute little white poof whose name was drox. Okay. Okay, I'm going to play it for you. What are you? I'm a drox. What's a drox? Do you like cream filling? Sure.

Starting point is 01:22:09 Well, I'm the fluffy cream filling that comes between two chocolate cookies. Wow. And I love to be eaten by kids. You do? Sure. Enough drox are friendly, so you always say hello to a drox. Okay. Hydrox from sunshine.

Starting point is 01:22:25 Oh, that's cute. It's clever. Yeah, that is cute. Yeah, I don't know about the drox saying, I love to be eaten by kids. Yeah, you and I both made a face there. Yeah. But no, that's cute. Yeah, so the campaign was you twist open the cookie and the kids say, hi, Drox.

Starting point is 01:22:42 They're saying hi to the cream filling. Yeah. I mean, it would have been great if they'd thought of it before the Oreo twist and shout thing. But hey. Yes, yeah. So, yeah, still kind of common. being Oreo here. But even that campaign didn't last because later Pillsbury sued Sunshine Biscuits for the DROX character. They claimed it was a rip-off of Poppinshresh, aka the Pillsbury

Starting point is 01:23:06 Do-Boy. What did the, what did the DROX look like? He looked like a cloud. Yeah, F off Pillsbury Dillow boy. But Pillsbury won that lawsuit and Sunshine had to stop using the Drox character. Oh. Nothing seemed to work to shed the label of Hydrox being the cookies that Grandma and Grandpa used to eat. What followed were a series of acquisitions. In 1966, Sunshine Biscuits was acquired by the American Tobacco Company. Oh, okay. Could big tobacco save the struggling bakery and catapult Hydrox back to the top?

Starting point is 01:23:46 Hell no. To the no, no, no. Yeah, to the no. Oh my God Meanwhile, Nabisco Kept putting out Absolute bangers In the 1970s,

Starting point is 01:23:59 they introduced the double stuff Oreo A.k.a. The best Oreo. No, it's too much stuff. Absolutely not. They also came out with insanely catchy jingles. Here's a commercial

Starting point is 01:24:11 from the 80s. Oh, oh, oh, cookie. It's a bright idea to dunk it or to crunch it or unscrew it or to lick it or to trick it but no matter what you do, It's true. It's fun to munch your creamy, crunchy chocolate. O-R-E-O goes great with imagination.

Starting point is 01:24:32 It puts the yum in your creation. Oreo and Oreo double-stuff cookies. Man, whatever happened to jingles. That was great. That was wonderful. But did they say trick it at one point, twist it, flip it, reverse it? They say trick it? I'm not sure.

Starting point is 01:24:52 We can't play it again. That was a very long. Yeah, but man, that brought back childhood memories because I remember that jingle. But sometimes it would change the words, but it had that same tune. Yeah. I remember the opening line of ice cold milk in an Oreo cookie. Well, of course, Hydrox decided to copy the double stuff Oreo. They made a copycat version, but theirs were kind of unique.

Starting point is 01:25:16 They were called Hydrox doubles. So it was a double stuffed Hydrox cookie. but they also added a little flavor dollop in the middle. Uh-huh. So you could get a little dollop of strawberry or a little dollop of chocolate or a little dollop of mint. But Hydrox doubles, it didn't take off at all. By the late 80s, Hydrox ads were getting desperate. Okay.

Starting point is 01:25:41 Please buy our cookies. Basically. Not only was their packaging changed to blue and white to copy Oreos, but they were running commercials that went like this. I'm a Hydrox cookie. Hydrox. Hydrox. Some kids have trouble remembering my name.

Starting point is 01:25:59 I don't understand why. I mean, you like a creamy center? Here's a creamy center. Thick, delicious, creamy, creamy. And you like a dark, crunchy chocolate cookie? Well, here it is. But you've got to remember my name. Hydrox.

Starting point is 01:26:13 Hydrox. Don't forget. Hydrox. Remember? That sounds like that, man. From the Sunshine Baker Man. That sounds like that man should be kept 500 feet from a school. Yeah, so the commercial is a man in a Hydrox cookie outfit.

Starting point is 01:26:27 Yes. Saying, I'm Hydrox. You have to remember the name Hydrox. And like two security guards haul him off. That's the commercial. That is the weirdest commercial. Yeah, it's strange. Sunshine Biscuits needed a savior.

Starting point is 01:26:42 And they thought they got it in 1996 when the company was acquired by Keebler. Okay, yeah. If anyone could save Hydrox, it's those damn tree elves, right? I agree. I agree. They're going to kick that guy's ass, that weirdo. They're going to get rid of him. Yeah, the guy's screaming.

Starting point is 01:27:00 Yes. Remember Hydrox, remember! He's on a list now. Probably. He has to check in with his officer. So Keebler acquired Sunshine Biscuits, and they immediately started brainstorming. How can we save the Hydrox brand? So they started doing some market research.

Starting point is 01:27:19 And whew, it was bad. Yeah. It was really bad for Hydrox. So for starters, no one really gave a shit that Hydrox was the original chocolate sandwich cookie. Yeah. Keebler's marketing director, Carolyn Burns, said, quote, According to our research, not only is that claim not meaningful to consumers. It's not even credible.

Starting point is 01:27:46 People don't believe it. Oh. They think Hydrox are the knockoff of Oreos, not the other way around. So, yeah, Oreos had become so popular. People just didn't even believe that Hydrox came first. Well, and what she's saying is such a gut punch to the people in charge because it's like, not only do they not believe you. What your consumers are saying is, even if we did believe you, we would not care. We don't care.

Starting point is 01:28:14 Yes. So stop it. Stop it now. It's time to stop. Yes. And then there was the name, Hydrox. Carolyn Burns said, quote, we had a very negative feedback on the name, even from loyal consumers.

Starting point is 01:28:31 It sounded very chemical-like. Yes. So here's the solution. Keebler will rebrand with a new name. So they came up with a few ideas. You ready to hear them? Yeah. Heidi Hoes.

Starting point is 01:28:45 I like it. Sounds like a greeting for our listeners. It does. Heidi hoes. Twisters. Uh-huh. Chaco twists. Sure.

Starting point is 01:28:55 A little boring, but okay. But they ultimately settled on this name. You ready? Yeah. Droxies. No. No. No, that's a compromise.

Starting point is 01:29:09 That's a terrible. No. You fucked up. Sorry. Carolyn Burns thought it was a hit. No, she didn't. She knew it was bad. She said, quote,

Starting point is 01:29:18 Not only does it cue back to hydrox, but it's a fun, whimsical name that really works with the Keebler imagery. I don't remember Droxies. No. They did not exist for very long. When Business Magazine asked Carolyn Burns how Keebler planned to make Droxies stand out against Oreos, she basically replied, we have no idea. It's a tough market to go up against Oreo. That's a broken woman right there.

Starting point is 01:29:49 This is a broken woman. The Kebler Marketing Director is a broken woman. Needless to say, Keebler Droxies did nothing in the market. Didn't even come close to touch an Oreos. In 2001, Serial King Kellogg's purchased Keebler for $3.86 billion. And in 2003, Kellogg's took Hydrox cookies out behind the barn and quietly killed it off. Norman! There is sweet vanilla cream splattered all over the side of the barn.

Starting point is 01:30:23 A sad end to the original chocolate sandwich cookie. Business magazine stated the end of Hydrox, quote, reinforces one of the business world's crueler lessons. Sometimes it just doesn't pay to have a good idea. That's ridiculous. What's ridiculous? That idea paid off just fine. Yeah, but the copycat won in the end.

Starting point is 01:30:44 Well, I mean, they copied this. I mean, it's like... I saw a comment on a Hydrox commercial. Uh-huh. Somebody said, Hydrox and Oreo is like, if Hydrox told a joke in class, Oreo was the kid who told the joke louder and got all the laughs.

Starting point is 01:31:04 God, I've been Hydrox. Oh, no. I've been... When has this happened to you? Well, I mean, I'm a weird podcaster, which means I mostly, you know, am introverted and didn't say loud stuff, so I would say something quietly. Yeah, I mean, I guess this.

Starting point is 01:31:21 You have been hydrox in class. I have been hydrox in class. Oh, man. I've also been just plain not funny, so, you know, I can't totally complain. Well, what do you make of this? Because to me, it's like, okay, you can look at it that way. I think another way to look at it is like, no, this was a very successful cookie. It didn't achieve global dominance, but how is that the measure of success?

Starting point is 01:31:45 Yeah, I mean, it's, Hydrox really was a product of its time. Yeah, I think to me, see, I always think it's so fascinating when there's a product that is so dominant that the people in charge get kind of complacent and feel like, oh, well, we've, this will never change. Blockbuster will always be on top. People will always enjoy Kodak film, you know, like that kind of thing. Yeah. And I think it's just they needed a name change way sooner. Way sooner. Honestly, like, I know what they were thinking at the time.

Starting point is 01:32:23 But even when they first came up with the name Hydrox, there were other products on the market already called Hydrox. Yeah. And you see Oreo over the years, if something doesn't work, they immediately pivot. You know, they change their ads. They changed their marketing. They change their packaging. They do what they got to do. And it just felt like Sunshine Biscuits was like so stubborn on like, we were the first.

Starting point is 01:32:48 Yeah. We're the best. And they just wouldn't get off of it. And I think consumers noticed that. And it felt like grumpy and stuffy and like, oh, God, okay. No wonder it appealed to old people, you know. But, you know, cookies and biscuits and crackers, they're not meant to last forever. I mean, you know, Nabisco's, you need a biscuit.

Starting point is 01:33:10 That was discontinued in 2009. Okay, I was going to ask about that because that is a cute-ass name. Do you need a biscuit? Yeah. Yeah. The Droxies. Droxies, yeah. What do you think of that?

Starting point is 01:33:21 The name? Yeah. Stupid. Right. I liked Heidi Ho's. Now, that's whimsical. That is whimsical. So I think what's kind of ironic to me about this whole story is the Loose Brothers.

Starting point is 01:33:35 The whole reason they started their own company was because they were so mad that someone was going to change their name. Yeah. And not really even change their, well, I guess, yeah, change their name. They were going to have their name removed. Yeah. And their ego got in it. And to me, that's kind of the same problem that happened with these Hydrox cookies.

Starting point is 01:33:57 It's like somebody's ego got in it. Like, no, you can never change the name. Because that marketing person, I don't know, I feel for her, I feel like somehow I know what she went through, even though I have absolutely no idea. But to me, that Droxie name is. oh shit, we've got a compromise. Right. We've got to compromise with somebody.

Starting point is 01:34:17 Right. Because I think she understood the only people eating hydrox right now are like the diehard loyal consumers where if you change anything, they will be like, well, I'm not eating this anymore. No, I don't. That's not what I'm saying. What are you saying? I'm saying this, and this happens in PR too. The people in charge have a problem and they want you to fix the problem. and you say, okay, you got to do this, that, and the other thing.

Starting point is 01:34:45 And they go, whoa, hang on, we want you to fix the problem, but we don't want to do this, that, and the other thing. And so then you kind of have to go, okay, well, what are you willing to do? We're willing to do this, that, and that thing. Yeah. And you know, well, that's not going to get the job done, but if that's the only move you're willing to make, I guess we'll take that half measure.

Starting point is 01:35:06 No half measures. This is war, a cookie war. This is the Biscuit Wars, yeah. Interesting stuff. With Hydrox dead behind the barn. That left only one chocolate sandwich cookie with a cream filling Oreo. I mean, yeah, sure. You can buy store brand knockoffs.

Starting point is 01:35:26 Trader Joe's has Jojo's. Aldi has Benton's original. Walmart has Twist and Shout. And, you know, some of them are pretty good. I think the Trader Joe's ones are pretty good. but will they ever top Oreos? Not a damn chance. Oreos are the number one selling cookie in the world.

Starting point is 01:35:46 There have been over 100 different types of Oreos since they first launched in 1912. Macha green tea, Coca-Cola, golden Oreos, birthday cake Oreos, candy corn Oreos, just about everything you can think of. Fondent Oreos?

Starting point is 01:36:04 Disgusting. Hydrox was dead. Long live Hydrox. Although Hydrox was gone, it still maintained a loyal following. Many Jewish people fondly remembered Hydrox cookies. Others preferred

Starting point is 01:36:20 them over Oreos because the chocolate flavor was darker, more bitter than Oreos. Hell, some folks just like a good underdog story, said one fan, non-conformists don't eat Oreos. But what can you do?

Starting point is 01:36:35 Kellogg's owned the rights. and Hydrox was locked away in some vault, but one man hoped to change that. His name was Elia Kassoff. Kassoff is the CEO of Leaf Brands LLC. It's a company that specializes in reviving iconic snack foods and candies. And as a Jewish man, Kassoff fondly remembered eating Hydrox cookies growing up. And when he saw the demand for Hydrox, he came up with a plan to revive the cookie under his company.

Starting point is 01:37:09 But again, the problem was Kellogg's owned the rights to Hydrox, specifically the trademark. But there's an interesting loophole in trademark law. If you can prove a company has abandoned the trademark, you can snatch it up.

Starting point is 01:37:23 Yeah. So he took crime scene photos from that thing out behind the barn. Behind the barn. Elliot Kassoff contacted Kellogg's and he acted all innocent. He's just like, hey, I'm a big,

Starting point is 01:37:37 fan of Hydrox, but I can't seem to buy them anywhere. Don't go baking my heart. Tell me they're still available somewhere. So Kellogg's wrote him back and they basically said, yeah, sorry, but this cookie has been discontinued. This is so smart. I love this. And that was all the proof Kassoff needed. He and his lawyers applied for the trademark. And by law, they had to notify Kellogg's what they were doing. Sure. Kellogg's was stunned. They could not believe what this man was doing and they were prepared to fight tooth and nail for I'm just kidding Kellogg's did not give a shit they did not even respond to this man are you serious yes and a year later Eliah Kassoff officially acquired the trademark for Hydrox

Starting point is 01:38:24 however Cassoff only had the name Hydrox he did not have the original recipe he did not have the logo he didn't have the design of the cookie so he had to recreate it. Amazingly, he went on Craigslist, and he found a man in New York who was selling an unopened package of Hydrox cookies from 1998. Gross.

Starting point is 01:38:52 Which just goes to show, you can make money on just about anything. And thanks to some food scientists and taste testers, Cassoff was able to recreate the Hydrox cookie. He even found the original vanilla supplier for Hydrox. And in 2015, Hydrox cookies officially relaunched on the market. News outlets contacted former Kebler marketing director Carolyn Burns. Oh. And they asked her if she thought Hydrox stood any chance on the market. And she replied, hell no. And I think she was right.

Starting point is 01:39:28 You know, initially, you could buy the relaunched Hydrox cookies on Amazon. Even some grocery stores had them. Uh-huh. They were also available in weird specialty stores like the Cracker Barrel General store. In other words, Hydrox cookies were out there, but they're not widely available. In 2018, Elia Kassoff filed a complaint with the FTC for $800 million. What?

Starting point is 01:39:55 claiming that Mondalez, which is the parent company of Nabisco now, he claimed that they were hiding Hydrox cookies when they restocked the ship. shelves in grocery stores. Really? Yeah. Nothing ever came from that complaint. Okay. Anyway, today Hydrox cookies have basically disappeared.

Starting point is 01:40:18 And that's a shame because, Kristen, I was so excited for us to do a taste test between Oreo and Hydrox, but damn, I could not find Hydrox cookies anywhere. Did you even think of going on Craigslist? I didn't. Hmm. That's your problem. I did check Facebook Marketplace. No one had Hydrox cookies.

Starting point is 01:40:38 You know, and I confided in your mother, Sherey, about my Hydrox woes, and to no one surprised, Sherey Ray offered to help. She contacted Leaf Brands LLC, the makers of Hydrox, and asked where the hell do you buy these damn things? Except much more politely because that is the Sherey Ray Way. Yes, it was like one sentence. Your Honor was like, where can I buy Hydrox cookies?

Starting point is 01:41:01 Well, holy shit. The CEO himself, Elia Kassoff responded to Sherey, and he basically was like, hey, we're currently moving Hydrox production to a bigger factory, and Amazon sucks at distributing the product, but rest assured, when we get the new factory going,

Starting point is 01:41:21 Hydrox will be back on the market. What are the chances that he thought my mother was trying to take the trademark from that? So he's like, we're in progress. Very possible, okay? Very, very possible. So for all of you Hydrox fans out there, I guess just be patient. Also, if you ever want a problem solved, talk to my mom about it. For real.

Starting point is 01:41:43 It's funny, we were talking about it. I talked to her about it at lunch one day. Yeah. Like three hours later, she emailed me with that response. I was like, man, Chiray-ray to the rescue. Yeah. Well, Kristen, we've reached the end of our tale. And folks, you might be wondering, did I seriously just listen to a hour and a half

Starting point is 01:42:03 plus long episode about fucking cookies. What was the point of all this? Great question. I'd like to end this story with an inspiring quote. From the book, Out of the Cracker Barrel, the Nabisco story. It reads, The next time you pick up a ginger snap, saltine, gram cracker, or sugar wafer,

Starting point is 01:42:25 pause a moment. You are holding the descendant of a long line of pioneer ancestors who helped feed the crews who sailed our ships, sustained our frontiersmen, and provided nourishment for a growing country. And that, history hose, is why I made this episode. There is history in those cookies.

Starting point is 01:42:50 And that's the story of Hydrox versus Oreo, The Biscuit Wars. Norm, I'm going to feel like a damn hero when I sit my ass on the couch and eat some of these cookies later. Yeah? Yeah. I'm going to be like, hats off to my ancestors. I want you to pause for a moment.

Starting point is 01:43:12 I will pause. Don't just dive in. Well, I'm going to dive in, but maybe between the third and fourth cookie, I'll pause. And I'll think about it. You'll pause to burp, take a breath. Oh, I'm a lady. Thank you very much. What did you think?

Starting point is 01:43:27 Was it more interesting than you thought it would be? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, actually. I really enjoyed that. Oh, good. I feel like I got quite a few future topics from that research. You know, you took us on quite a journey.

Starting point is 01:43:40 The Confederacy got involved. A jail slash brothel was involved. A factory explosion. Cracker barrel. Cracker barrel. Yep. All good stuff. That's right.

Starting point is 01:43:54 Folks, I'm sure you can hear Norm wrestling around with some packaging. You might even hear him chewing a little into the microphone. We just finished our first segment of Slop, which is the special segment. We gave to the pig butter investors that they did not ask for. We just humiliated ourselves. We did a taste test with some Oreos and some off-brand ones. Do we reveal it? Or do we say no?

Starting point is 01:44:19 We don't reveal how stupid we looked. Yeah, you got to pay for it. You got to pay for the slop. Yeah, yeah. You can me? We don't just give this shit out for fun. That's right. Norm, fabulous episode.

Starting point is 01:44:31 Thank you. Very fun. It was nice to have an episode. I was about to say where no one died, but a lot of people died. The factory explosion was unfortunate. It was nice to have a mostly lighthearted episode. And they took Hydrox out behind the barn and said, look at the pretty flowers and then cocked the shotgun. Norman, that's a lot.

Starting point is 01:44:52 I know, it was horrible. You know what they say about history host, Norm? We always cite our sources. That's right. for this episode I got my information from the book Out of the Cracker Barrel, the Nabisco story from Animal Crackers to Zoo's by William Kahn.

Starting point is 01:45:08 Plus reporting from KCUR, Business Magazine, and a variety of newspaper articles. Check the show notes. That's all for this episode. Thank you for listening to an old-timey podcast. Please give us a five-star review wherever you listen to podcasts and while you're at it, subscribe.

Starting point is 01:45:24 Support us on Patreon at patreon.com slash old-timey podcast. Join the Reddit community, R slash Old Timey Podcast. Follow us on Facebook and YouTube and Instagram at Old Timey Podcast. You can also follow us individually on Instagram. She is the beautiful Kristen Pitts-Karuso.

Starting point is 01:45:41 Hello. I go by a gaming historian, and until next time, Tudaloo, Tata, and Cheerio. Ah! Goodbye. Bye. Bye. Bye.

An Old Timey Podcast - 96: Snack Attack: Oreo vs. Hydrox

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