And That's Why We Drink - BONUS EPISODE: The History of Queer-Coded Villains with Yvette Gentile and Rasha Pecoraro

Episode Date: October 31, 2025

Mirror, mirror on the wall, who's the gayest of them all? Happy surprise Halloween episode! Today we're joined by sisters Yvette Gentile and Rasha Pecoraro of So Supernatural podcast to dive into the history of queer-coded villains, the Hays Code and our favorite, gay characters across the media landscape before they were legally able to come out of the closet. Representation matters, folks, including Christine's newly uncovered obsession with the Grinch. We love gay Halloween, what do you mean you're going as Luke the Halloweentown goblin before he magically turned cute... and that's why we drink! Check out the Buzzfeed listicle Christine mentions here to help get you in the Halloween spirit: https://www.buzzfeed.com/samstryker/all-the-disney-villains-ranked-from-least-gay-to-most-gay Check out Yvette and Rasha on So Supernatural dropping spooky episodes every week on all your favorite listening platforms! They’re also @ywblend and @rashapecoraro on Instagram and yvetteandrasha.com online! Find your scent soulmate today and get up to 60% off at http://microperfumes.com/drink Use code DRINK at jonesroadbeauty.com to get a Free Cool Gloss with your first purchase! #JonesRoadBeauty #ad Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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zip recruiter find the right people for your roles seasonal or otherwise we have told you so many times we love zip recruiter we used it thank god we did we found eva immediately we have nothing but nice things to say we love zip recruiter please please go use it if you're even wondering please go use it four out of five employers uh who posts on supercruiter get a quality candidate within the first day you know that's how we found eva and right now you can try it for free at zip Recruiter.com slash drink. Again, that ziprecruiter.com slash drink. ZipRecruiter, the smartest way to hire. excited. Rasha and Yvette are here from So Supernatural. And we're going to be talking about queer villains. And I'm like so excited. I'm so amped about this. Yeah. Thank you both so much for

being here. Oh, thank you guys for happiness. Yeah, we were on their show recently, which was super fun. And also, sorry, I was going to say, happy Halloween, everybody. Oh, yeah, happy Halloween. Happy Halloween. Happy Halloween. Best day of the year. We, yeah, we decided we were going to talk about queer villains today because we wanted to do something spooky for our bonus episode. And we talk about a lot of villains, but we never get to talk about fun villains. Yeah, yeah, true. This is like a less like kind of heavy episode, I would say, than, um, than some of the ones that Emina usually cover, uh, especially true crime related.

But, uh, you know, we were on So Supernatural and it was all very, um, polished and scripted. So I'm just setting like a standard here that is probably not going to be that, but we're going to try our best and see how professional we can sound. You're always professional. I love you guys so much. Even the voice. Exactly. It's like, oh, Lord.

Wow. We need like a, we need like a master class. We need to take like a master class. I know. I just, I feel like, do you get, I feel like the two of you should somehow get cast in like the, like the sleep podcast. Like an audio drum. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just see, just the, oh, I feel like I'm walking for a mouth out.

Oh, my goodness. Anyway. Uh, yeah, no, so we, before we do an episode ever, we, um, usually talk about a reason why we drink this week. It can be good or bad. Usually it's bad on my end. Um, just to, I like to complain. Um, but do either of you have any, a reason why you drink this week? And it doesn't have to be alcohol. It's actually half. M's, M does not drink. So it's I drink. M. And we usually have iced tea or milkshake or something. Um, I usually have whatever I can find in my fridge. Um, so yeah, if you guys have a reason. Um, um, so yeah, if you guys have a reason. Um, why you drink no pressure but um feel free uh well i'll start i would have to say that i mean i do drink i'm married to an italian so i love i love you know wine red wine vino apparel spritz all the things but it's too early in the morning to drink drink sure but the reason why i drink this particular week is i was just so sad about losing d'angelo i don't know if you guys know DiAngelo, but he was this unbelievable R&B soul singer.

Oh, yes, I saw that. I read that obituary. Yeah. He was crossed between Jimmy Hendrix and Marvin Gay. And I just, I can't stop obsessing over like all the tributes that are just pouring out. And it's, and it's every generation and it's every color, every creed. It's just, I don't know.

He was such a big part of my 20s and 30. So that is why I'm drinking this particular. How did he pass? Oh my God, he was 51 and he had cancer. Yeah. I think it's pancreatic. Pankeriatric. Yeah, which is just like extra. Yeah, it's just. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's hard. I feel like that happens sometimes when people and it like kind of hits you out of nowhere because you're not like necessarily thinking about this person every day. But then you find out that they're, you know, gone. And it's like, oh, shoot. I just realized like what an impact they had on me. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. And in the same breath. Like we lost another. person who was 51 who works out with us so it was like oh geez freaking double whammy and so yeah anyhow it's like y'all take care of yourselves oh too young too young how am I supposed to follow of that I'm sorry I'm gonna say tell us something about like I don't know usually I'm like my glasses are like

scratched right right right run the gamut bring yeah we go all over the spectrum right well I'll bring it well I am dry so I don't drink however I do need some volume and I definitely I know we could connect on something. There you go. I mean, you know, I'm a totally open book. And I'm just going to say, so if I were to drink and that's why we drink, it would be this week because I have a 14 year old child who I gave birth to who my wife and I created in a doctor's office and we love her more than life. However, she's too much like. me. And that is why I drink. Truth. Well, that's relatable. Yeah. Yeah. I, that's like such a double-edged short because it's like, I know exactly what you're thinking. Like at my four-year-old already, everyone's like, oh, God. But I can predict everything she's thinking and doing. And it's like, I know it because it's how my brain works, but also like, oh, God, it's annoying. It's so annoying. And my wife

and I even knew, like, in the ultrasound, like, she had my profile and I'm like, oh, shit. it's like an omen it's like an omen she's like i'm making for you and anti-evette can you know can contribute and say that leilani is definitely a mini rasha for a certain mom is probably looking down at you going mm-hmm yeah they always are they're like we told you told you told you I feel like it's a big um or at least in my house it was a common curse of like if you have kids I hope they're just like you I feel so it feels like a backhanded compliment, but it's really just like an insult or like a threat. Yeah, you have to hope that means you're a really good kid or something. It was a really good kid.

Oh, were you? Yes. Work you? Yes. I was very square. I was too. Yeah. I was too.

You were a spoiled, spoiled child. I should say that. Yeah. Says the sister who's 11 years older than I mean wasn't wrong child until I came along. Now, this is what we're here for. All right. Let's open it up to the floor. Any talking points?

I was going to say, Christine, as a sister with an age gap, do you relate at all? Yes. She says a little spoiled. But also, I'm like, I feel like I was spoiled in different ways. Like, I'm like, she's spoiled in like a younger child way where like she didn't have as many like rules and stuff put on her. But also as the eldest, I'm like, you know, I had the perks of like being, I don't know what perks, but I'm sure my brother will tell you what they are. How many years apart? Well, so my brother's two years younger than me and we're like best friends and then not only in recent years,

but my sister is 14 years younger than me. And so she's our half sister. And so growing up, like we were teenagers when she was born and we were like, what the hell? And so I was like, you know, the default babysitter and everything. So there was some time where I was like, man, this girl, but I just love her so much. Correct me. It has me from pros and cons. I'm wrong.

Correct me from wrong. but I feel like being the oldest sibling in an age gap is similar to me going to house parties but never drinking where it's like I can tell you exactly what was going on here and you can't fight me on it I was changing your diapers and holding your hair back at the party yeah yeah yeah it's like you'll never know I mean I'm pretty sure I'm right but you'll never know so yeah agreed 100% yep yeah I think they're perks to both I think my brother's in the middle and I think he probably gets the worst of it because he's in the middle he doesn't really he's kind of stuck there it's only event and me and like oh yeah i mean obviously you can see how we look we're definitely not full-blooded siblings but we never say half and it drives us nuts like when press says that oh that's weird really and we're like no we'm like we came from the same wound just in yeah it's weird yeah and like why does it yeah i say half sibling because people are always like why did your mom have a baby so and i'm like because it also i'm very i talk a lot about my parents divorce so people are like where did she come from But, yeah, I don't think I've ever considered her, like, half-sibling.

You know what I mean? Like, it doesn't feel that way. But you feel like you have to explain, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I think because we're always having to explain because of the color difference. Right, sure. Why are we going to explain?

Yeah. Yeah. So same. And still people don't believe we're related. That's very silly. Yeah, it's so silly. People need up to get a hobby, I think. Hello.

Right. In like media literacy and other things. Agreed. All the things. Oh, well, M. Is there a reason why I drink? Great, I'm glad you asked. Well, Em.

I, you missed it yesterday, but I had a whole costume debacle for Halloween where it was out of sight. I was supposed to be Frankenstein. I, Instagram did me real dirty, and they brought me a condom costume. Not Instagram, Instacart. A condom costume? I was a condom. The costume came, it was a costume of a condom. Oh, my goodness.

Wait, what? I literally ordered Frankenstein to condom. It showed up and I was like, why is it so, like, shiny and gold and, like, pulled it out. It's a condom wrapper. An open condom wrapper costume. Yep. No. Like, it's you ever seen.

But it was disgusting. I was like, and I wore it on the show, of course, because at that point, for the plot. Too late now. And it was, so anyway, I thought, okay. okay, I'm done with costumes. At least I just, like, wore for the one day, and now I don't have to touch it again. Magically, now friends are reaching out and saying, hey, you have a house and we have nothing to do on Halloween.

Would you like to host, like, a trick-or-treating, we'll all pass out candy? And I made the joke yesterday where I was like, I certainly can't do that in a condom costume. No, no, no, no, no, no. So now I'm scrambling to come up with a different costume. You're going to be, yeah, you can't rely on Instacard anymore. Like, who knows what the hell is going to happen? And Frankenstein is ruined for me. So I'm kind of.

I'm kind of in a panic about what I'm going to do. It's just so wild. Like, I just couldn't get over it. It's, it's, it's a condom rapper costume. There's nothing about it that crosses over with Frankenstein, Frankenstein monster. Nothing about it. I, like, I cannot wrap my head around it. And the guy apparently handed it right to, um.

With a bold confidence, right in the eyes. It just hands it to me. No questions, no notes, nothing. And so I never thought anything of it. He really, he really tricked me. I felt really secure about his decisions. And I walked in and I went, he got it so wrong. um so dang did you call that's for sure and tell them that you got the wrong costume it was too late

they like closed their like their end of the portal uh by the time i was able to reach out and go what the hell is going on here so i just got stuck with it and paid full price so um uh and then i was like well this is too funny so i'm just going to keep it and wear it for the show but i'm still not what i want that off at the end of the year i was going to say yeah yeah that's a great Yeah, this is true. So can you imagine our business manager calls like, there's this XXL condom condom. Yeah. It literally says XXL for eight inches or bigger.

It's like, what is this? Who made this? It says lubricated salient. Oh, yeah, that's right. It says that too. Yeah. What the fuck? Oh, my God.

Who made it? Who? And who bought it and said this will do? Oh, my goodness. It was a real. So anyway, actually, this, it works out very. well, I'm going to call it a serendipitous moment, that now we're discussing queer villains, and I feel like this gives me a chance, first of all, to become a queer villain, because

that was my origin story. But second of all, I now have an opportunity maybe in our discussion today to figure out a new costume in time. Oh, I love that idea. Wait, that's so good. We can find you a new villain costume. I mean, the condom is villainous enough, I will say. But you're right, it's not child-friendly for trick-or-treating.

Not at all, yeah. It's the least family-friendly thing. Only a dull, XX, trick-or-treating, yeah. And I drink an iced tea that it's from my local spot. What do you drink, Christine, and why? Oh, thank you. I drink a spicy mocha because, well, I'd already drink it all. But I went to my bookstore and was like, I want my bookstore.

I went to the bookstore in my neighborhood and was like, I want a spicy mocha because I had therapy today. And I was like, I deserve a little treat. Sure, yes, you do. Yeah, so I went, why do I? Oh, that's what I'm drinking. Not anymore. I drink it all. And why do I drink?

Oh, probably just because I have a four-year-old and it's, and she's just like Rosh said a lot like me. And it's really... Mini Christine. An adventure. It's like, hmm, I see what's happening here. How do I approach this in the healthiest way? That's also not going to make everybody else crazy or me crazy.

But it's very fun. And it's a, it's a, she's very excited for Halloween and she's decided that I have to be, um, last year she was grumpy toad from the Pete the Cat book series. and she's very niche right like she's age three she was like I'm not going to do like the witch or anything I'm grumpy toad and then this year she said I would like to be Pete the cat and I said okay we're broadening and she said and you're going to be grumpy toad and I was like okay so now I need to go buy a bunch of green weird accessories but I was telling and I'm like I have a weird affinity for the Grinch that apparently nobody knew until yesterday and I was like I already

have a lot of like it's breaking news but apparently this has been her long time lore She's known, it's not her herself. My closeted lore. She was like, well, you know, I'm obsessed with the Grinch. And I was like, nobody knows that actually. And I said, well, that's so weird. My brother also said he had no idea. And Emma was like, yeah, you've literally never said that before ever.

But apparently, so I'm creating my own Mandela effect, I guess. But we have an episode about the Mandela effect on so supernatural with Ashley. See? Okay. So we get it. Yeah, it's a real thing. And I'm like, just because you guys didn't know what was going on in my head all the doesn't mean it wasn't the truth um so now i'm your truth is your truth christine thank you so much

it's so nice to come out of the closet uh you know the grinch this is the episode for that this is the one right surprise yeah oh look about queer villains let's talk about the grinch hold on he's got to be something right that's the gayest man i've ever seen in my life i absolutely wow talk about an icon no wonder you were so attached i get it now it's starting to click holy shit and he He went to live, he was outcast by society, living up on that hill. He loved his little Santa jacket, his little drag moment, you know. You're making him cry. He made drag.

Oh, my God, he made drag. You're so right. We're like 15 minutes in and I'm crying. I mean, am I wrong? It feels like he's like just full of internalized homophobia. He's like, yuck, decorations, you know, forget it. And then he comes to learn to love himself and others and he's included for loving himself. Oh, my God.

And then he's, like, naked, I guess, because he's, always in green. I don't know what that's about. Yeah. Etonist. Oh man. I am like, wow, that really came full circle for me. Thank you. I didn't think I'd like find so much out about myself today, so thanks. I was, I was going to say, do either of you have queer villains? Well, first of all, everyone, I guess, should raise your hand if you're, if you're queer, if you identify. Oh, Yvette. You were just the supervisor today. She's an amazing eye. I did want to. I, that's an amazing. But I'm in an ally. I'm married to a straight white man,

so I'm not that exciting. That doesn't take away from your identity. I know, but I'm on, I'm on the spectrum there a little bit. That does not take away from your identity. And it's not even an Italian with a wine preference or anything. I feel like I'm losing. It sounds like in a straight relationship, you still nailed it. I see.

Yeah, you bet's like already a step ahead anyway. Oh, shit. Before we begin, does anyone have any favorite queer villains? The Grinch, who stole Christmas. I, I mean, I have a, go ahead, rush. You go first. first go first you go first go first thank you as the queer one i will go first that's the spoiled little sister thank you thank you thank you christine it's so funny i was thinking about this because i am more

of a disney princess girl interesting you know but but really not a princess because like i identify most with moulon and oh yeah that's good yeah very queer so queer and hello drag king i'm married to a retired drag king. Wow, your life is amazing. Damn. Emilio a Latin drag king. She's bad ass, too. Let me just tell you.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh. So sexy. She needs to bring Emilio back, but that's a whole other episode. Emilio. Emilio. Yeah.

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For me, I honestly think I, my favorite queer villain, of course, the epitome of queer villains is Ursula from The Little Mermaid. Of course. But I actually really love Tama Toa from Moana, the big crab. Okay, you know what? I feel like I've watched that a lot lately, and that didn't even cross my mind. That's a really good one. It's still happening.

Oh, my God, that's such a good one. Do you have one at that? Oh, my God. I was thinking about this, like, really, really hard, really seriously. And I was thinking it's got to be between two. So it's either Cruella, right? Or Malifficent. Like, between the two.

Who was the other one? Maleficent. Oh, of course. Interesting. Yes. Yes. Because they're both just so fabulous. I was going to say they're fabulous flamboyant.

Like that's like that, that is like the run through for a lot of this. They would both be perfect drag queens. Like if someone were to be a drag queen as either of them, they'd kill it. Think about Cruella with that coat and like, I mean, ridiculous. Oh, coat and the nails and the bags. Apparently she was, there is a theory that she was based off of a drag queen,

but not the behavior, just the, just the look. Just the look. And they made it very clear. But not about Corella. I'm going to actually make sure I get the name right because that's pretty epic. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I could totally see that like 100%. I could see for any of them, to be honest. Yeah. Yeah. I have wait for it. I know. I'm like the suspense is building, Christy.

She's like the frantic typing. I swear. I was prepared, I promise. Yeah. Okay, got it. So apparently Crueldaville was inspired by Tallulah Bankhead, who I don't know much about but had a very husky voice a very extravagant personality was like big cigarette smoker very like um high fashion and was a very good person what i was gonna say you're just i i'm so glad that our notes are marrying so well because she was literally somewhat i watched a whole youtube video last night where i got very suckered until what we're going to talk about down the radical she was like one of the main characters that i heard all about so there you go so apparently that's who Cuola DeVille is like based off of

but not, but they kept saying not the personality because Tallulibankhead was a really great person would never kill puppies. She wouldn't wear them as far. She wouldn't wear them as a coat, I promise. And I was like, okay, I mean, I hope not. But okay, it's clarifying.

Would you truly say the Grinch is your, your queer villain? You're allowed, I just don't, in case there's another answer you have. You know, I don't know. I think, I think so. I feel like, I feel like that's the one now that I've, I think I would have said something else, like maybe a Captain Hook or a Prince John type, like one of these weird dudes who wore pink and it was like, I don't know, just like a spectacle to watch.

But I think I'm going to go with The Grinch, which is weird. All of mine seem to be seem to be men. But the Grincher, well, is the Grincher man? I don't know. He's just some sort of. In amorphous block. We don't know what gender is. The Grinch is.

Yeah, that's a non-binary. another yes right okay so i think that uh for the with what do you say the risk what's the preposition with the risk at the risk of sounding at the risk thank you at the risk of sounding um all over the place i'm going to stick with the grinch sure yeah sure i'm gonna add one more yeah i think i need to because i realized my queer awakening came when i first saw the rocky horror picture show and i had the biggest crush on Tim Curry as Frankenfurter. That speaks volumes. Very good.

And I needed men all the way until I was 30. And I always chose, my sister can attest to this, very effeminent men. Yes. With the exception of like one guy and that was a daddy issue thing. Yeah. And then I finally came out at 30. But you were like, I see. Tim Curry will do it.

Yeah. Yeah. And you were very young, but. Our grandmother in Hawaii used to run the Rocky Picture, the Rocky Horror Picture show in this particular theater, the Waikiki 3 Theater, like every, like, I think it was every Sunday at midnight. She was like the host of this show. Talk about family lore. It's like in our family DNA. That is so cool. Yeah.

My grandmother did nothing like that. Let's just make it with that. My grandmother did not participate in anything so progressive and exciting. Well, I would say mine was My personal favorite is Scar But I think the one that even when I was a little kid And I was like, that's a gay person was Jafar I think Jafar is one of the best like examples of this

I think yeah Yeah, I think everything you said I mean he didn't even really seem interested in Jasmine He was very flamboyant His voice was just like the most stereotypical voice had ever heard um he was very yeah just like you did just very like silky just kind of moved a little too cleanly i don't know there's something about um but um yeah what did you say that's a gay person i i clocked it at four i was like what is that about um i could like uh anybody else say in

that i was like no one's going to talk about it okay um but i would say my favorite is is scar who is i would argue just a cousin of jafar they're very similar that they are in my head yeah I feel like voices. They also, he also moves very slinky, um, eye liner. Eyeliner, perfect. That's both of them. Um, anyway, I think those would be my two favorites. And I heard someone say, um, not, it's not anyone here.

I was in the YouTube rabbit hole. Someone said their favorite queer person was Isma from the Emperor's New Groove. And I have notes on that. Yes. And that was played by Earth the Kit. Oh, what? Yep. Really?

Really? Yes. Yep. And I, that actually, I, that actually, I feel. feel like is my new answer. Sorry, I forgot to say Eismuth is my favorite. I do think if I had to be one of the queer Disney villains, it would, I would want to be Eism. It's an excellent one. She's very like, I imagine what she, she's what Caruella will age into. Right. Right. Right. And she evolved into. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She was fabulous from day one. Yes. And she knew it.

From birth. Thank you. Yeah. As they all do. Yeah. Before we get to talk about, Christine, I will argue I'm going to just defend Christine here that your part is definitely going to be the more interesting part of I'm going to do the history element here that's that's that's that's my fault not yours I think I yeah you you took on the the the more history stuff I got so suckered in okay I appreciate it we're going to have a good time but the I the more fun part we'll be getting to psychoanalyze I assume some of the I have notes on Isma on Scar on Ursula et cetera um we'll talk about it when you hear that and then you hear and i have a history portion you're like oh brother let's go no no yours is into it's actually no we love history we love history as well

but before we can talk about queer villains we have to talk about why there are so many queer villains in media why they're represented that way and so we're going to talk about the haze code do either of you know about the haze code i know a little bit yes yes yes yes yes yes from the 1900s Yes, yes, yes, yes. There's so many things that I didn't know, but anyhow, let me stop. No, no, no. Please, please chime in. Yeah, we don't know anything. I mean, we do now that we researched it, but I didn't know anything at all.

That's exactly right. I will say right off the bat, incredibly missed opportunity to call it the Gaze Code. Whatever. No, number one. Okay, true. So the Hays Code were, was a time in the film industry. from 1934 to 1967 where there was a set of guidelines that movies were expected to follow. But before I even get into that, I wanted to ask, do you have any favorite movies from that era from the 30s to 60s?

Any favorite, you said? Any favorite movies from that time? Because they would then be, they would have to follow the Hays Code. It would be interesting to think about how they were made. Interesting. Wizard of Oz, Yvette. When was that made? I don't think that was.

Oh, that was 34. So it does fall into it? You said it started in. Yeah. Yeah. So that would definitely be at the top of our list. Yeah, that was our mom's absolute favorite. And both of us have always been infatuated with it.

But I was always afraid of Elphaba and now I'm like, Wicked. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Reclame. Talk about pure villains. You know what? Christine, you, I think we didn't, this is not in my notes, but you just nailed it. I feel like that is a reclaiming queer story, right? Yeah.

And it's incredibly queer now. And Wicked, I'm pretty sure every character is somehow alluding to being. queer. 100%. I actually just watched a video today of Ariana and Cynthia saying that literally every single character in Wicked is a friend of Dorothy. Thank you. See, there's a reason there's a phrase like that. So that's, well done, Christine. That's actually, that's, is that something, if I had a joint with me, I think I would say for like 20 minutes to be like, whoa, that's the. I'll do that later and I'll call you and just do it on your behalf. Thank you. Um, um, um, um, um, Okay, so let's get into it then.

So back in the early early 1900s, 1910s, films focused on all sorts of scandalous themes. There was really no rhyme or reason to it at that point. They didn't hide from showing sexuality or violence or drugs or what would be considered sins of the world. And fun fact, one of the reasons for this is because when film kind of picked up, a lot of people in theater were the people who moved. into the film industry, and their storylines were very scandalous. So it just kind of carried into the movie world.

But outside of the debauchery in the actual movies, there were real scandals in Hollywood, including multiple murders of film actors. There were directors who were murdered. It was becoming a bit of a problem. Oh, my. And this led to a stereotype

that the whole industry was a, quote, veritable breeding ground of sin. Because I love that. call queer people now. I know. I was like, again, let's reclaim it. That's beautiful. Yes.

A little too current. Yeah. So in 1915, with the whole country starting to get this stereotype in their minds of what the industry is, there were talks of the government getting involved or trying to censor some of the movie's messages just to kind of tamper down what people were seeing. And the studios went all the way to the Supreme Court to protect their film's freedom of speech. But they accidentally shot themselves in the foot by doing that because the Supreme Court then said, well, since movies are a product, they can't really be protected under free speech. And therefore, they absolutely can be censored.

Wow. And the Supreme Court also called movies capable of evil, meaning that censorship was now legally justifiable. And when this was announced, each state began creating their own censorship boards for film, which made production super difficult because now they had a lot of. follow like 50 different censorship boards as each state came out with their own and news of this justifiable censorship in each state got to the conservative evangelicals who had quite a lot of political power at this time um and today okay so um the catholics in particular had a real bone to pick with the salacious film industry and they believed that movies were to uh blame were to blame for boys discovering violence and girls discovering sex.

They were like, because of this, we got to get it out of here. It needs censorship. And the church started calling, this is actually one of my favorite quotes I discovered in my research, the church called ungodly movies, unhealthy and impure entertainment that destroys the moral fiber of a nation and a grave menace to youth, to home life, to country, and to religion, corrupting public morals and promoting a sex mania in our land. Not in our land. Woo-hoo.

Yeah. Oh, no. Sex, it's like Reefer Madness. Like, do you, I have no idea. It's like Cetanic Panic. It's all the fun stuff. Looney Tunes.

So basically, believing that films actually had this kind of impact on society, they put out what they called the motion picture production code, which was their moral guidelines that a movie should follow. And I won't get into it. I cut a lot of notes here. But they also created something called the Legion. of decency, the Catholics. Oh, jeez.

These are your people, Yvette. And mine, unfortunately. Simmer down over there. Oh, yeah. Well, yeah. So the Legion of Decency, they were this Catholic organization where they organized boycotts and movies across the country. If those films didn't follow the code, they actually also put out brochures and

rated the movies themselves. And if you were a true Catholic, you wouldn't watch anything outside of the top-tier ranking. It was a whole thing. And when they came out with these boycotts on movies that didn't follow their ranking, keep in mind Catholics at the time made up over 20 million people in the country. These protests were huge and therefore they were very effective and the industry had to listen to that. So afraid to upset the Catholics, plus trying to avoid all 50 states different censorship rules,

plus trying to avoid the government from stepping in with their own censorship rules, Hollywood basically said you win Catholics we're going to create the production code association or the PCA and they said we're going to create the PCA

and this group is just going to enforce the moral guidelines you've given us that would make this movie worthy of you watching it we're going to stop this sex mania yeah stop it in the name of Jesus yeah

and this is just another added reason why it was why they decided to lean into the PCA and they decided to like give in to the Catholics is because this organization just so happened to be ran by all major studio heads who also owned 80% of the theaters in the country. So even though this code was voluntary to follow

if you didn't abide by it or agree with all major studio heads, there was a big chance that your movie was not going to get me. Right, fair enough. And money is the bottom line there too. So it's like at a certain point. Yeah. then and now right so the haze code uh again moral guidelines for any film created by the catholics that were now upholding to what could go wrong what could go wrong that was just a bad plan it's just like almost

comical to look back it's like whoa whoa people the haze code basically ends up just becoming a banned list of topics that challenged conservative christian norms um so some of the things that were banned were indecent dancing and keep in mind some of these are kind of up to interpretation right so there's not even a real like what is indecent dancing so what was that quote from the supreme court like about porn it was like you'll know it when you see it that's the only definition and it's like that's a little vague but okay sure doesn't help yeah so indecent dancing drug use nudity profanity and ridiculing religion or law which feels i mean talk about censorship and then it got even more ridiculous where some other things that were banned were childbirth, the scene got on the screen or even a silhouette implying it. There could be no image of that. Well, because it's disgusting. So, yeah, yuck. And I had a C-section, so I was drug up in time.

I know. I mean, I'm jealous. And then it got real gnarly. The Hays Code banned things like any mention at all of interracial relationships of only white slavery. Oh, right. Yeah, I read that. I was like, what? Like hello?

Yeah. Okay. Like, what a weird. Okay. It's literally bold in their code says white slavery. Is that even a thing or was it ever a thing? You talk to them. I mean, listen, the Catholics probably will tell you it was.

And I'm sure they're not really. I'm sure they'd say that they're victims now. I don't know. I don't know. Sweeping generalization. Somebody out there for sure. If you were to time travel and ask these people, they'd say yes. Right.

Right. Right. Yeah. It's all part of the sex mania that's sweeping our nation. So, sorry. Got to shut it down. The boys are learning violence, the girls are learning sex, and white slavery is the biggest thing in this entire nation.

That's right. It's just a big problem. If that ever gets cut out of context, I'm so screwed. Oh, boy. So the other thing... We'll come to your defense, then. We got your back. I haven't decided yet.

I'll wait and see where things land. You haven't decided yet. I'm just going to see what happens. So the other thing... that was really super duper band in the hayes code was sex perversion which was heavily or maybe directly christie maybe you have a different answer than i do but it was mainly they just were talking about homosexuality there is that's basically anything outside of a traditional romantic relationship between a man woman yeah anything beyond that no go perverted perverted yes as gross as childbirth

don't forget it's almost disgusting yeah so uh not just that, but the Hays Code also made it clear that if something were to happen on screen, if it had to happen on screen, then there were rules to how it had to be shown. This is my favorite list to call Christine has ever written for me. Thank you so much for this little. Oh my gosh. Yay. Okay. I took this part from the notes that Christine initially did and I was like, this is great. So thank you so much, Christine. Some of the, some examples of how things had to be shown was if there had to be kissing on screen. It could only last a few seconds. And so, So the sneaky way around this is that directors would have,

they would break the kiss into smaller cuts with dialogue in between. So that way it was technically a long kiss with just dialogue separating it. Which, like, I think if you think about it, like, you look back to those old movies and they would like be kissing them and be like, oh, I'm just so happy. And then they would like kiss again. It's like, oh, I see. They're like saying two, three seconds. Okay.

Separate. I mean, it's just ridiculous. Yeah. Take a breath. Okay. Yeah. What the fuck? Yeah.

sex could only be implied which led to a lot of a lot of shots such as as Christine even put it, the workground is that you would show the couple kissing for like three seconds, relax everybody with their clothes on standing up

at a church and then and then it would fade to another scene that had nothing to do with what's going on and then it would fade back to like a while later and the couple is now again standing maybe separate from each other fully dressed but it's I think actually in casa blanca there was a scene that implied that they had had sex but really what you saw was then one standing by the window and smoking a cigarette and the other the other one like still out of breath

it was very odd and they're just like fully clothed and you're like what just happened you know like what I totally do not remember that oh my gosh I remember one little piano and we saw it at the Academy Museum and it was like a tiny little piano remember that event oh my god no you don't I won't like I was like too years ago picking up the mug and being like nope nope it's not even gonna pretend to remember it's called minipause I don't remember that I listen full respect it sounds incredible rasha it sounds yeah it's really cool I'm glad you remember to go to the academy museum if you but I do remember the movie though I would like to I have not been so it's so so amazing. If you're a movie lover, it's so amazing. It didn't really seem to be that exciting for

Yvette. But Rasha had a really good. No, no. I take that. If I ever go, first thing I'm doing is sending a picture of that piano to you and a vet, so she knows. Thank you, M. So, uh, another thing is that crime couldn't show technique so you could discuss a crime, but not its details. Right. You couldn't teach people how to teach him how to kill somebody. Yeah, which I actually, I thought that that was really fascinating because one of the things I had in original notes christine was in the movie psycho the classic shower scene yeah if you think about it there was no actual visual of anyone being killed nobody was shown being stabbed the knife wasn't even shown it was just through the shadow scene it was so i literally have no clue what happens i just hear the

this is what happens exactly the sound but it's also down it's a shadow through the shower curtain so it's a shadow right so you don't even like see the yeah okay it's basically the whole scene is um alluded to it's through the score and through her screaming you can assume what's happening but you don't see a body or a weapon that's interesting because it is terrifying right i mean maybe less so it is it's terrifying when it came out so it definitely like hit the mark i guess it was um not so terrifying to me once i found out that the blood they used was chocolate syrup that really true that helped a lot i think you taught me that and i was like that calms a lot of my nervous system thank you yeah um so yeah crime could not show technique you could just discuss a

but not the details of it so nobody could learn how to commit those crimes themselves um profanity profanity was replaced with euphemisms clergy couldn't be villains of course anything homosexual was off limits unless it could be like up for interpretation

if it was just that subtle right so the main takeaway is that the Hayes Code basically said each film needed to uphold the values of Christian patriarchal white supremacy easy super easy easy big deal big world up. So before I get into that, just to give us a little breather here, are there any go-to, since this is Halloween, that this is coming out, and we are in spooky season, are there any go-to Halloween

movies that are your favorites or your comfort movies, and how would they violate the haze code today? Ooh. I can go first to give everyone a second. I'm just realizing real quick that our podcast violates every one of these haz codes. I'm sort of like stuck in that because I heard like describing crime and I was like I even do that like I even tell people how crimes are done I've really broken every rule I know about Catholics clergy people and I mean I'm I mean the way that we just like say fuck Trump every single day we're literally broken every law of this thing so anyway sorry I'm kind of stuck on that but em I would love to hear what Halloween movie you're thinking of I mean so the basically you can't lose this game because the answer is all of them would violate the his code just in terms of like witchcraft or murder um yeah but my i just really want to take the opportunity to talk about my favorite um holly movie which is uh Halloween town i don't know if you were able to if you ever saw that um that's here i've been to Halloween town because I live just outside of Portland

Oregon and it is in St. Helen's Oregon and we've been there I didn't know that amazing I don't think you know what you just did my brain because I've been telling myself for like five years I'm like one day I'm going to spend Halloween in Oregon so I can go to a real Halloween town. Well, I will join you, M. Thank you. Thank you happening. But no, so if you haven't seen it, it was on Disney Channel.

It became like one of their most popular movies, especially during Halloween. And it's about a family of witches so that they were kids. They didn't know they were witches. They found out that their mom and their grandma were a witch. And now they have to go to Halloween town. Debbie Reynolds was the grandma. And it's actually, I think, a trilogy. There's at least two of them.

I think you're right. I think there's three. My daughter has watched a lot of them. She like learns to like she gets her like driver's license and it's a broom or something. Like it's like very precious. And all everyone to do was be a part of that. But that was always my favorite. I'm sure witchcraft, although I did not see it in the Hays Code, I'm just going to give it a whack and say that that's absolutely against their policy.

I would imagine. Yeah. I think that's a fair guess. Yeah. On top of that, weirdly the troll or goblin in that movie was a lot of people's sexual. awakening. And I feel like that also would violate it in some way. I got to Google that. I don't remember. His name was Luke. I can't picture the troll. To be fair, by the time it came out, I don't know if you would have been attracted to a 15 year old. Um, true that. That guy scared me. I'm 46. Yeah. But I and also as someone

who is not attracted to boys, um, that it didn't work for me either. But I did hear a lot of people in school going, oh my God, Luke the troll. And I'm like, okay. As someone who's attracted to like pretty effeminate men also, this is not doing it for me. This is. But I see why some people would be, I guess, into it. I will. Well, did you look at him handsome or ugly? Because a spell makes him handsome is what it's. Oh, that's right.

I don't even want to get into what his eyes back. I know. I don't even want to get into what that means. But yeah, yeah. But he, I will say he's on TikTok these days. And he's a silver fox now. He is now, I still don't like boys. But wow, I could look at him forever.

He is so smoking. Okay, all right. Okay. He's a, if someone needs to go look at something on TikTok today, you go look up Luke the troll Because he's beautiful. Luke the troll is a wild phrase. Okay, sure. Like, of all names, really, Luke the troll.

Oh, my goodness. Anyway, I really just wanted a second to talk about something spooky, so I didn't have to talk about homophobia so much. Oh, I know. So, uh, anyone else got a Halloween movie? They want to splice in here? My favorite Halloween movie is hocus pocus. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, another one, I thought that's the one M was going to mention because that's

other favorite, I think. See, this is why we're friends. I truly, I love Pocus Pocus. And I was very lucky a while ago, a while ago, like a year ago. I got to meet the zombie Billy. No. Yeah. He was, I got to have lunch with him. It was a whole thing. He's in the shape of water. He's been like in everything. He's huge. He's in everything.

That's one of my favorite movies, too. He was also the silver surfer in the original Fantastic Four, which was fantastic four. Yes. That was fantastic form. That was fantastic. Anyway, he was that, so it was already my favorite movie, but then I saw, I saw him, and I went, I have to go talk to him. He's an amazing human, isn't he? He was, he's the kindest.

I think him and his wife run like a, like a dog rescue or something now, like, like they're due charities for, for, to help dogs get homes. Something like that. I'm totally butchering it, but he's, he's a very nice man. I very much like him. That was such a weird little brag. I'm so sorry. But every time I hear Hooker's Focus now, I have to tell people that he has to.

It's extremely important. And I feel like when people meet famous people or actors who are nice, I need to know about it because it gives me a little bit of glimmer of hope for the world. Agreed. Well, let us name drop. Chris Pine is one of the most beautiful humans. Kind of spirit. Okay.

Now we're talking. Now we're talking. I'm going to need you to tell me more about it. And he's fine as hell. But yeah. And I find as how my right hurt. And I agree as well. Yes.

See, there you go. Yeah. You know, I bet he'd be a real handsome troll when I was in high school. I'm sure he would have been. If you did a magic spell especially. Yeah. No, Hocus Pocus is an incredible movie. I think that's probably, um, it's for sure now a classic outside of children, right?

I think all people of all, of all age range is consider that a classic movie. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I love Hocus Pocus too as well. Really. You do. Okay.

I only watched it once, so I don't really remember too much of it. But I remember thinking this was at least very nice of them to do. I remember thinking, like, I really would love to see what a sequel would look like. And I love that everyone came back for it. And they're talking about HocusPocus 3. But I just looked up the other day. Bet Midler turns 80 years old on December 1st of 2025. Have you seen her?

Holy shit. She looks amazing. She looks amazing. How old? How old? 90? She's 79. She'll be 80 on December 1st.

That's crazy. Also from Honolulu, Hawaii, like Yvette and me. Really? See? You guys got all the kids. I know. I wish I've met her, but I have not. Not yet.

Speaking of queer villains, I mean, let's give Bet Midler and Hocus Pocus a round of applause because that's a very. Wendy Sanderson. That's such a, I don't know why she's queer, but she also gives, like, drag queen energy again. They all give drag queen energy. Yeah, they all give. I think they're all amazing allies. I think they would violate the Hays Code just by actively violating it. Just on the cover of the,

I just looked up the cover of the movie. I'm like, yeah, wrong. All wrong. And back to what M said, witchcraft. Yeah, witchcraft. Yeah, good point. Yeah. But you should see the picture because Rasha, Lelani, and Vana

dressed up as the three of them and they nailed it. Oh, I want to see that. I'll text it to you later. Which one were you? Which one were you? yeah we rasha which one were you that was the last time we dressed up as a family i think that was like three years ago bring it out you next week is the costume time but you were leilani she won't she doesn't want anything to do with her mom's doing what if amelia what if amelia comes

back out and i'll spice things up i got to be honest i need a i need a picture of amelia before anything else i need a lot of things for this episode i will text you and stand by i'll even put it on the screen. Oh my God. Oh my God. I wish our listeners could actually hear it or see it. Well, on YouTube they can. Oh, yeah, YouTube.

There you go. Yvette, do you have a favorite Halloween movie? I mean, I would have to say definitely hocus pocus as well because I'm a big, huge Bedbindler fan. But I also loved Nightmare on Elm Street. Like that was my Freddie Kruger. I'm so scared of that. That was when I liked to be scared and shocked.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, which is it has its fun. I feel like I'm finally starting to lean into that in my 30, my mid-30s. I'm like, okay, I guess I can be a little scared sometimes. But yeah, it took me decades to get there. But I feel like that's a classic too. Do you think that breaks the Hays Code? I mean, probably in every way, shape, and form. The murder part, I guess.

There's murder. There's people of color. Oh, bad. There's all the things. And side note, I cannot remember. Freddie Krueger's real name, but he is getting his star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame on the day this drops on Halloween. No, on Halloween. I love that he's doing it on Halloween. I think he's Robert England. Thank you, Robert England. I knew it started with an R and I couldn't remember.

You're totally right. Wow. How exciting. How timely. I know. I see it. You probably can't. Oh, no, it's too like, it's too white. You can't see it. But the body's 10 out of 10. I know, body's 10 on a 10. I know. Oh, damn. Okay. Well, this is just getting us more intrigued. We're like,

now we just see a silhouette. You just gave us a psycho. It's like psycho. It's like a little sprinkling. Just a little like tease, yeah. Christine, favorite Halloween movie? So this is kind of silly because I feel like I never watch. I don't really watch scary movies, but I recently, for the first time,

not recently, but as an adult, watch practical magic. And that is a movie. I never seen Greg. which is so weird because I was a huge Sandra Bullock fan and my mother was too and I don't know what how we missed it but like that movie I watched like maybe for the first time like 10 years ago and it has become my favorite so I feel like I missed out as a kid and I did watch hoax see the other thing is I never watched hocus pocus as a kid either um not for any reason I think it just somehow I avoided it and I watched that as an adult and it didn't hit the same I think as it would for kids who watched it when they were young and the magic the whimsy was yeah I think I like watching it for the first time as an adult. was like I didn't I missed out on some of that I think but practical magic I got to tell you that one was that one was a good watch even in my you know that's a classic too yeah yeah love and again witchcraft uh and that's okay we all that's lilo pickerrero oh what she was I thought that was Hank and em was like that's okay and I was like are you talking to the dog okay sorry we all have

this is what happened you record in home yeah yeah judgment at all yeah she just wants to be a part of the episode she'll stop in a second that's fine well so okay thank you everyone for sharing your your favorite movies with me but to get back real quick i have one little piece left but a reminder the PCA which is the uh the organization that decided to enforce all of these rules they were also all the studio heads so you kind of had to abide by them uh they appointed a minister named william hayes as their spokesperson to further appease the conservatives which is where we get the hayes code um they also appointed joseph Breen to read through every script. This fucking guy. This guy's crazy. This guy is something's wrong with this guy. Like he's clearly covering up for something because he's like, I'm going to read every single script and like approve it or not approve it. And then I googled like, who is this guy? And they were like, he's just the guy who reads the scripts. And I was like, but where did he come from? And like, why is he the guy? And who is he? Nobody knows. He, yeah. So he got hired to read through every script of every potential project and his whole job was to approve or deny it based on its content. And if it violated the Hays code.

But it was not just him approving the script. He had to approve the visuals in the scene. He had to approve the wardrobe. He had to approve the marketing. Like, he's a creep. There's something creepy about this dude. Like, get out of here. He was weirdly the green light for your movie.

And this made him, someone quoted him as one of the most powerful men in Hollywood history. Because he pretty much just had a nod his head and then you would get a movie. Wow. And fun fact, Christine, if you could do a little Google for me, because I know your fingers are faster than mine. I'm on it. I'm on it. That's what she was. I'm sorry.

I found out that he made 150K then, which we'd love to do the inflation calculator. That's like a salary. Wow. He made 150K a year in 1934 or 1930s. And did he do it all the way up until 1967 when the Hays Code ended? The most powerful era was the 30s and the kind of dwindled into the 40s, but it did technically exist through the 60s. But I imagine his job was really the most potent in the 30s of course. He literally made $150,000 on this a year.

At the time that it was. That is today $3.6 million. Like that's bananas for like what. He knew something. He obviously. He had something on someone. I'm convinced. Absolutely.

Absolutely. He must have known somebody in the Catholic church like something. Totally. Totally. Something. Something's going on. Yeah. Because they had so much control, you know.

100%. 100%. He, um, basically since he was so strict and it was him, it was really him or his office that you had to appease to get your movie done, a lot of people started coming up with workarounds for the Hayes Code, which Christine's going to get into for a second. But I did find one extra bullet point that I wanted to add in, which is that, um, a lot of people would send initial scripts in to their office and to the Joseph Brain office. And they would make it as outlandish as possible in scenes that they actually didn't care about. So that way the office would be so focused on those things that they would willingly cut that part and scrap it. So that way, hopefully no one noticed the actual kind of hand. They're like, oh, look how naked she is over here.

And then they're like, oh, we'll keep the stabbing in. Apparently, yeah, it's funny to say that because apparently Alfred Hitchcock was like the biggest. Oh, interesting. The biggest name in this where he would just write completely false scenes knowing they'd get cut out. But hopefully if people pay attention to that, no one would notice his, like, stuff he was trying to slip in. Well, if you're Alfred Hitchcock, it's like, you really can't work under these conditions.

You know what I mean? Like, come on. Give me a break. No wonder he made boobies like birds. It's like under the hayst code. It's like, the only weapon we can have. The birds are evil. Does that work?

Yeah. 100%. No, was Alfred Hitchcock queer? I think he actually, there, I feel like that's, there were rumors, right? Yeah, I don't know if it's true. But I do think that was something people talked about. Hitchcock queer.

Let's see. He likes this is the same. This is how we're not. podcast goes we're like let's be quiet for five minutes old week he's associated with queer themes because his films contained queer coded characters and subject so I guess maybe that I think he wrote a lot of queer characters I do think he wrote a lot of queer characters and did a lot of queer coding intentionally for representation but I because he was like against the censorship of it but yeah I don't know that they ever like right I was just curious I think he

was against the norm you know yeah yeah all right anyway according to how Alfred Hitchcockgeek.com. He was a repressed homosexual. So I'm not going to even read that article, but I'm actually for the first 30 years of my life too. Yeah, right? Like I'm like, that's for somebody else to decide, not me. Wow. Sorry, I don't mean to out, Alfred, you know.

I mean, he writes to keys. You know, I think it's okay. I think he's all right. I think he's all right. He's fine. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, that was a, that was some of the stuff.

I know Christine has more to add to like the workarounds for Joseph. Hey. Okay. So let me see. Am I starting at the highlighted part, right? Yeah. Okay, cool, cool. So like I'm said, people are now finding workarounds, especially our friend Alfred. Alfred. He, a lot of the workarounds had to do with Alfred. We're not that close. I don't know why I'm pretending. I don't even know if he's gay or not. So writers would like find ways to work around this code. A lot of it was implied stuff, right? So nuanced stuff. So body language, voice tone, cost. assuming innuendo you can see where we're getting with the villain arc of this so you obviously couldn't say something openly and instead you would hint at it and with the plausible deniability of like I don't know what you're talking about that wasn't that's your interpretation not mine you know so the innuendo is what was really being used at that point and that is kind of the workaround that led to made the groundwork for queer coding because queerness wasn't stated directly but it was signaled indirectly and not because it was like clever or subversive at first but it was the only

way to even present queer traits get us in there yeah on screen at all and so like an example i think em did you put this in here this is a really good example um yeah marlina detrick dittrick in morocco her character was interested in a man so on paper it's like and i think zina warrior princess was very similar where like she'd be pursuing men in the show narratively but then like Marlena Dietrich wore a tuxedo kissed a woman like there were these things and you'd be like but she's dating a man so actually doesn't count you know it's like they had these workarounds I love that you mentioned Zina like the that that's I never I never even I mean I knew that she like was off like something gay was going on there but I never even so she so she and the the her

I forget the her name um they were like implied as queer from the beginning by the writers and then the audience that they like I read an article about it yesterday people would say um what's they're not gay and then the actresses later said like oh we realize like certain people just couldn't see it because it wasn't in their worldview at all and then the people who were queer or had like that association were able to look at it and go like ah I see immediately like what's happening here and I connect with it so it's interesting it's like it this innuendo thing kind of works because if you're like really not looking for that depth of something or like even have queerness on your radar, you're probably going to miss it.

It's so fascinating to me that some people don't see that depth. Don't clock that. I'm just like, it's so, it's so wild. When M is four and is like, that's a gay guy, that's a gay lion. Or a gay guy. He's literally his pet is a majestic tiger or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I, you know what that reminds me of too, Christine, is I don't know if you ever saw

this Disney movie, but I'm happy to give you the spark notes. Cadet Kelly. Oh, I loved Cadet Kelly. If you've ever watched Cadet Kelly or if you ever need something so obviously queer, it hurts. It's ridiculous. Disney TV movie. And it was Disney, so I'm sure even if they were attempting that they couldn't say it, but it was basically it's Hillary Duff in her prime. And she had to go to military school. Yes, I did see it. I did see it. It was a great film. I loved it.

It is a great movie. It's cute. And she has to go to military school and I guess the girl that's training her or is like her like cadet supervisor I don't know what the right word is. There is like beyond tension and they keep getting like weirdly close and staring at each other's eyes and I'm like, Jess, kiss.

Oh my gosh. Get it over with it already. Come on. And this year by the way, they came out and did say they're like okay, canonically fine, it's very gay. I feel like a lot of actors are now saying like yeah, canonically we've pictured them as gay

So yeah, they're gay happy now. And I'm like, yes. Wait, what is this? You heard you're saying. Knotically. What is that? What? Canonically? Like in the canon, like in the lore of it.

Canonically. Canonically. Yeah. Sorry, I've never heard it. I don't know that I've ever even said that word out. I don't know that I've ever said that word out loud, but M said it and I was like, I'm going on it with it. You both said it.

So I'm like, you know what it means. I need to know too. To say something is canon is like, we're just going to deem it official in the zeitgeist. Like it's kind of retroactively. It's now official. Yeah. uh like like in harry potter like it's canon that magic exists like it's just like it's part of their um but no i sorry christine when you when you were talking about um oh my god the two the gay ones

the gay ones um yes zina that immediately made me think of cadet kelly and it it goes right back to everything you're mentioning here it's just like there was just so many undertones that were hinted at and if you were looking at it you would see yeah if you if you had a little bit of media literacy maybe you could like perceive that but otherwise it's like whoop right over your head um and of course i like worked to their advantage if you were uh writing a movie or or something like this and trying to um get past that joseph brein or whatever the hell his name was um that creepo yeah so it was enough to tell you that a person uh might be queer but not enough that anyone could prove it and so that's how that narrative would go now i'm excited about this part i created a little um

three part section here of types of queer coded villains because looking back there are like different versions of how these villains kind of came to be so there are some that were intentionally queer coded but by queer creators so oh for good for I wrote yay next to it like this was meant to be like a positive representation one of them being ursula of the little mermaid because she was based on the iconic drag queen divine and the writers have said that that was absolutely their inspiration and so that was one of those that's obviously like rush said like one of the classic queer villains of our time sleigh slay oh yeah she look up divine and then look up it's very fun it's like the comparisons are very fun um so the other one that i have here which is

kind of out there and it's a more, there aren't many intentionally queer characters that we know of because people wouldn't talk about that back then. But in recent years, there have been more like, apparently I don't watch the NBC show Hannibal. But apparently Hannibal Lecter has just been confirmed pansexual, but not just read that too, maybe in the past few years. But that's part of the, and the writers said that's, and he's, I guess, with a man on the show? I don't know. I don't really follow it, but I was very surprised. Same. I'm too scared. I couldn't watch it. I can't watch it either. I don't watch the series,

but I did read something about that. Yeah, I was like, Cannibal Lecter. But talk about a villain, right? And so it's like, oh, interesting. But the creator of that, the writer of that, or creator of that show is queer also and said he did that intentionally. Interesting. And those are the only two examples, unfortunately, I have of, like, very intentional.

Oh, Christine. I know. But there are only a couple for the other ones, too, if that makes you feel any better. Can we play a game where we go back and talk about our favorite queer villains and then try to put them in the category? Absolutely. Do you want to do it now or do you want to wait till the categories are? Yeah, yeah. I want to hear the other categories first. So I have intentionally queer coded as my next category, but by studios and straight people

as a form of moral threat. So to write queerness into a character as like, see, they're the bad guy. And even if it wasn't intentional, it was like, oh, they're other, right? And so an example of this is one of my favorites which like this movie terrified me as a kid and so it's not like a favorite movie of mine but peter pan from 1953 stop laughing it's scary uh captain hook um i i knew like he had i always remembered him being kind of like effeminate and like not really knowing like with his little handkerchief and not knowing how to be like the tough hero but um i was reading an article on the different uh characters and like the subtleties that they implemented and some of it was that he wore pink pants and in one scene he takes off a coat and

he has a pink shirt underneath and it's like these things that you don't necessarily even realize at the time but you're like nobody else in this movie is wearing pink you know it's weird yeah right yeah and i wonder too if if or maybe you know this answer was it um do you know if it was in do you know if it could have been intentional at all of like oh let's make them look gay i i know they wanted him to look effeminate and like the opposite of a masculine like hero type so they they were like okay what's the opposite of like a hero okay pink he doesn't know how to like he keeps he's like all frilly and doesn't know how to like do anything I mean they really made him just like this ditsy effeminate guy wearing pink and so that was like one

of them the other one that I think is the most to me like like hit the most um I don't know nostalgia is Prince John from Robin Hood in 1973. Do you remember him? He was like the lion. He would he would suck his thumb. He was like this infantilized like king and he was always whining and he had all these jewels and he was like this pampered like king and he sucked his thumb and his whole thing was like just a big baby and he was always very girly and like emasculated.

So a lot of this is just like emasculating like male characters that are the villains. And it makes the audience want to not like them Exactly and it's meant to be like oh look at this loser You don't want to be like this You don't want to wear pink and suck your thumb and be like Into jewelry gross you know that is so wild to me Because I think about like you would think a villain as someone who would be like Hard to defeat and therefore should be like ultra masculine and so it's weird

They didn't even care about this as someone to defeat this is just someone we just don't like They're like they're the bad guy And don't you want them to lose because look what a loser they are like they can't even drive a boat and I'm like well okay yeah I don't know it's just it is weird um yeah um now the other category here is audience red or culturally absorbed queer coding which is more of what like we were talking about of um over time kind of co-op taking it back like reclaiming like for example scar from lion king is a good example you know he was never necessarily intentionally portrayed a certain way but he has eyeliner just like jafar

he um as the one buzz feed article i read by sam and stephen who are like they called themselves very gay um that was their that was their like uh what do you call it their tagline their tagline no they're like um oh god christian sorry i have such bad brain fog i'm not even going through menopause but my brain is like i don't think you talk to yourself like they're like a descriptor of themselves just like they're uh their their they're they're back like they're christian their backstory or something Like the reason they're able to give this insight. Like their credits, they're like, hey, we're really gay.

Their credibility. There you go. So, thank you. Their credibility is that they were like, well, we're very gay. So we can write this article, which is we rank the Disney villains from least gay to most gay. And it's on a scale of one to gay. And they actually, they rank SCAR as a 9.5. So like when you were talking about it.

And when they wrote why, they said, he killed his own brother and framed the murder on his adolescent nephew. We're sorry, but no straight character is capable of being so petty, plus the eyeliner, like, just all of it. You know, they write these little descriptors and I'm like, oh, I see it. I see this like, and he has like the, you know, the eyeliner. And it's like, same with Jafar. There's so many other reasons I could have gone with. I love that they just went, well, for the flare. Nobody else cares about the theatrics like this.

That's why I gave their background. is what they're saying. Yeah, and that's why I gave their background. I would be like, just to clarify, they're claiming that they're, they're allowed to say this. So it's not me. But yeah, so that was kind of, those are kind of the three main characters, or main categories. Like, people have co-opted certain characters or, like, decided and taken them under their queer wings as queer characters, whether or not they were intentionally done so. Some were done so, like, insidiously with bad intent, and some were done to celebrate queerness.

very very few back in the day but some um so yeah those are the three categories and and do you want me to like say any of like how do you want to do the little put put some in it oh i was just going to guess mine but i i feel like you you already i really just keep inserting myself sorry everybody um but i it's your podcast exactly um the no i well you i will before i even do that I just want to say thank you because I always thought that Ursula was supposed to be an intentional slight. I didn't know that it was supposed to be like an intentional

like a gift of like a oh look how proud we are. I know so I'm so glad you say that because she's actually number one of course on the on the BuzzFeed listicle from one to gay. Yes and it says one to gay she is gay with like loving wise. It says she's literally modeled

after the drag queen divine only a true gay diva would plot to steal another vocalist pipes that stuff is made for gay stand Twitter. She's a Mariah to Ariel's Ariana, a queer icon, and worthy of the gayest spot on this list. And so that's their take. I want to be clear. But, you know, who else is on here is Cruella. And that's how I kind of learned about the, they call her a power lesbian in this article. She is. Yeah, because it says also that she is serious road rage. And they say everyone knows gay people come out first as LGBTQ and then second is horrible drivers. And I was like, interesting. I'm learning so much. That's hysterical. My wife has like the worst road rage, but I think that's because she like, I must be gay then. Maybe we're all gay then, yeah. Everyone's a little gay, Yvette. Everyone's a little gay, you know.

Yvette, what a way to find out. Well, don't tell Gino. He'll be fine. He'll be fine. He's Italian. He's Italian. Sidebar, Christine, I feel like one of the things that I don't think, why would you mention this? But it's just like an extra fun fact of like one of the ways they made a power lesbian,

look like a bad person is her last name is literally devil oh yeah true point um i had no idea until this conversation that crewella was even based on anyone queer but the who can you can you say the name of the person that she's named yes it was what is tea yes i keep wanting to say tabitha but it's not tabitha it's uh tulula talula talula bankhead apparently she's very similar to the Marlene Dietrich, where she also dressed very masculine in shows or in movies. It was very heavily perceived that she was queer. And I think in real life, she actually was known to have a long-term partner. Oh, wow.

And so a roommate? A roommate? Yeah. Maybe. A roommate. A best friend. Maybe she's an Alfred Hitchcock. She just happens.

We don't know. She's a friend of Alfred's. A friend of Al. She's a friend of Alfred. But no, I think she was, I, you, all my brain's kind of exploding a little bit, all the little points that I was learning girl kind of smashed into each other. So, um, anyway, I think Jafar is in category three where it's just like a perceived gay person. Do you, okay, I have a guess here, or not a guess, but like a little quiz. Do you guys have a guess as to the, on their list, the least gay, which is, their rating is 0.025 on the scale of one to gay, of a villain from what, from which class. classic Disney movie do you think is like the least gay villain which is the best game you've ever I know right I'm having a great time but I'm like I don't know if this is too difficult like there's so many let me think let me think I need a multiple choice I know I know because there's so many

there's so many least gay the stepmother from Cinderella literally the stepmother from Cinderella shut up did I get it right Russia damn Russia you're good up I was just saying like She was such a bitch. She's such a bitch. I'm sending in the private chat of picture of this bitch because I'm Oh my God. How did you nail that so fast? That was like the most amazing thing I ever.

Wow. I'm telling you, I've seen every Disney movie ever made. And I've been obsessed since I was a little girl and still into my 40s. Like I was way before I had a kid. And that, like she was just sticking in my brain. That totally makes sense. now that you say it out loud yeah and also ugly mean she had kids so maybe she maybe she had a straight past at the very least or yeah she knows to her picture and then um in the chat and i'm going to read the

little descriptor here um her name's actually lady tremaine um and with the name like that yeah so it says aka cinderella's evil stepmother has got to be the most heterosexual of the bunch she's uptight boring and obsessed with the royal family she's basically the late 1600s version of your Aunt Meredith. If Lady Tremaine were alive today, she would DVR dancing with the stars and asked to speak to a manager every time she set foot in a Chili's. It doesn't get much straighter than that. She'd be a

Kieran. Yeah, she'd be a total Karen. So anyway, you fucking nail Rasha, you win the big prize. I don't know how you did that. I swear I didn't look it up. I, that's 100% didn't look it up. I, that's so wild. I'm really, I'm really, yeah, she does. I'm very proud of myself. That was, I'm very proud of you.

I'm sure. I'm trying to. Who, but another reason I would have thought. thought is because doesn't she have a husband? Cinderella's dad has to be in the picture, right, for her to be the stepmom? Well, he had died. I think he does. Because that's why she's trapped. Have you seen that Hillary Duff flick?

Remember that one? Oh, Cinderella story. Wait, the stepmom in that is, what's her name? Another ally. Jennifer Coolidge. Jennifer Coolidge. Oh, I love Jennifer Coolidge. Oh, my gosh.

Well, no, that alone, the fact that a game is, can you name a straight villain? and Disney is like so sad. It's pretty crazy. Yeah. And another good one here, like kind of in the middle is the Queen of Hearts from Alice in Wonderland, which I was like, that's so random. From the live action or from the act or from the animated. Okay. Interesting.

And they said she may be married to a man, but she has for sure dipped her toe into the lady. Do you have an image of what she looks like? Yeah. Again, not attractive. No, not attractive. Like very kind of. Very hateable. Like voluptuous.

and like very like just kind of very masculine as well very masculine and just kind of like in the way i don't know but it says here plus look at the king of hearts he's tiny you know our book queen is bossing him around in the bedroom and that earns her some solid queen so they're really trying to reclaim this in a way of like but we love her even though she was meant to be kind of like you know put on blast but it feels a lot But if either of you watch the Rugrats, the twins, by the way, their last names also DeVille was weird. But, Phil and Lil? Phil and Lil DeVille are.

Oh my God, you're right. I never put that together with the name. They're twin babies. They're of the Rugrats. But their parents, I've always thought, are canonically queer because their mom is like a very strong, masculine force. And the husband was always kind of like more effeminate, which at the end of the day, I should just be like, wow, they were so progressive to just have a couple who just

looks different than what you imagine. But in my mind, I was like, that has to be a lesbian. Like, that's different from everything else on TV. I think I was just hoping as a kid. I was like, please be gay. I just need some sort of reference. It just hit me. I should have said this earlier as my reason I drink, but I was so distracted by the Grinch.

But earlier, last night, I was putting Leona down for bed and she's four. And she looked at me and she said, some people have two daddies, right? And I was like, uh-huh. And she's like, some people have two mommies. And I said, yeah. And she's like, well, I'm glad I have a mommy and a daddy. and I was like, oh, good. Well, you know, we're glad we have you.

And then she's like, okay, good night. And I was like, oh, I love you. I'm so happy because I think a kid in her class has queer parents. And I was like, oh, thank God. Like, we can just say it and be like, I'm like, when I was four, that was certainly not a conversation I was having with anyone. So I just was very, my heart felt nice and full after that. So it was a good timing, too, to be doing this episode today.

I also means you're raising a good human, Christine. Aw, well, I like to think so. I hope so. She's, well, she's just like me, so that's obvious, you know. There's no way around it. But no, I feel like now every time we watch a Disney movie, I'm going to be like, see that guy. I know, same. I mean, like, Gino.

That pink shirt. So frilly. It's so funny that you say that because Laylani, like, she came out to my wife and I as straight, like, years ago. And it was so cute the way she did it. But I think because, you know, like we didn't have queer representation growing up, really, like no outwardly, at least not positive, right? So any person that like pops up, I'm like, oh, Frank Ocean, you like Frank Ocean? He's like, do you know that Frank Ocean is gay? Yeah, you're like, hey, actually, I have a fun fact. Yeah, like, I tell her that all the time and she rolls

her eyes. I'm like, representation matters, Leilani. Yes, matter. But we did grow up, though, with our two gay uncles, like who, you know, were near, like, they walked, I mean, in a Catholic wedding. I had my mom and dad, and then I had my two uncles walk me part way down the aisle, and then my mom and dad took me the rest of the way. So we were raised, you know, with knowing and accepting of all people. So, yeah, when I say I'm the biggest ally around, I am. I am, but I'm constantly learning, too, you know. Yeah, yeah. I know. And funny story, when I came out, so Yvette was in Italy, because she goes every year with her husband. And, I don't know. I'm I had just come out to my mom on the phone.

And literally, I think it was like 20 minutes later, Yvette calls me from Italy. This is back in 2009, right? So you know that that call was expensive on her cell phone. Something was telling me, you got to call your sister. You got to check in. No way. Yeah. And I was like, did mom tell you?

I'm like, did she really? I had 20 minutes. And she's like, tell me what? Seriously, yeah. Tell me what? Oh, my God. That's crazy. It's so funny because we were at a car wash in Italy because my husband, that's a whole other story.

Taking a pair of the car wash. Yeah. Always has to. And I just had this, you know, intense feeling that I got something's wrong. Like I got to check in. I got to check in. And then I called her. You were like, something's wrong.

My sister's gay. Oh, no. Well, no, not that. It's not that. I had gotten married on television. Oh, shit. Oh, wait. I did not know that.

I'm so sorry. That aspect of it. I was on the biggest loser in 2006 with my then-fiancee. and we got married on Inside Edition in January 2006 in front of the world. And so this is May 2009 is when I ended up coming out. You both have quite, I mean, I know that already, but man, you have stories for days, huh? Oh, for days. For days.

Yeah. For days. For days. For life times. Just do like, just like get into it. I know all our stuff. I mean, a lot of our family like skeletons came out when we did Root of Evil, the true story of the. Sure. I did not put that together until like a little bit before we did our episode together. And I was like, why did these names sound so familiar? And I was like, oh, I was really invested in that in that podcast back in the day. And so it like hit me and I was like, oh my gosh. Wow. Yeah. Welcome to our crazy family. Yeah. Hi. But they have to cut out a lot of like our story because it like because it was about the Hodel family and about the black dahlia Elizabeth Short, right? So they had to intersect all of it. But you know, there's.

so much more every single person has a story every single person but yes you bet is the biggest ally wow you'll ever meet ever and that's how i feel i feel like there's only sad because i mean i don't want to speak for you about but i think it's because i was i was sad because everybody loved my ex-husband right exactly but at the end of the day what i always say to russia is you have to decide what makes you happy and whatever it is that makes you happy i'm going to be happy that's it that's it that's how our mother raised us you know so but yeah it was just that you know that six sense that was like something I got to call her I got to check in something's going down that six cents is an eerie gift I I've only gotten to have that a few times but every time

I'm like I know it in my soul something is going on right now that's weird so weird yeah does it ever happen to you guys where you like have that sense but then you're like you never really get confirmation of what it was because that's happened to me like once or twice where I was like oh my gosh like one time i had this full on like full on episode and i was like my grandmother died and i it was true and my husband was like what the hell and i was like i don't know i just knew but then it happened a few years later and i was in a traitor jose and i was like something's happened something's happened and he goes oh oh because like the last time right because we never yeah we never really got like a confirmation i still wonder sometimes like maybe

i was just having a normal panic attack but i was like i remember being like uh just your average panic attack but I feel like sometimes I get that like gut feeling and I'm like well maybe I'm just not meant to know what it is right now you know um oh wow yeah I feel like for me it's normally it's it rings pretty clear doesn't yeah yeah do you get like you always knows do you get like oh you know even who like obviously you knew to call rasha so you knew it was like specifically it just comes through I don't know yeah and maybe it's just something that I got from my mom you know but definitely yeah have you ever had it also rasha like where you can feel about it best? I don't have it like Yvette nowhere near and I I think it might be because like because we're 11 years apart like when I was born like I was Yvette's baby like talk about Christine you were talking about like you're the built in babysitter right yeah so like Yvette would take me everywhere with her and then it it changed you know we became best friends when she says I stopped being spoiled in my teens but let me just say this I was very spoiled because you got to imagine 11 years and then comes a little baby so I was spoiled but when she came along it was like it's like

I had my own little doll oh yeah yeah exactly she was everything and always had she loved me like but she was a she was a little brat yeah yeah yeah that's part of it yeah that's part of it but it's continued to this day where like even when I you know was 40 years old flight attendant and I was living part time in San Francisco with Yvette and her husband Gino and I was commuting back and forth to Portland and like she would like stay up like until I got home she'd have like dinner ready for me so it's like she's so fiercely protective of me and always has been and then it translated to Leilani like I feel like Yvette knows more about when something's going on with my daughter than I do yeah okay interesting especially if she's like you you know like a like a younger

so much well then Christine get ready for your sister to have a weird connection with Leona with oh god I was like my brother probably he'll be like uh tell leona yeah sums up um she learned about gay dads yesterday christine watch out leona learned about gay parents the world is changing can i uh tell you the world is changing i know finally hopefully um i was just on a plane earlier this week and so you just mentioned gay dads i just want i have a quick story about gay moms is that i was sitting in a row with probably the person I've ever seen a lesbian couple that was in their like 70s or 80s I like how rare does that happen and yeah yeah it was like they were clearly in a relationship and well y'all haven't been to

san francisco i'm just kidding yeah i was going to say maybe we need to move to san francisco i live in kentucky so for sure i don't see that very i just i never see it and so in the fact that all three of us were in a row i was like this feels they knew they put you in that row they put you in the exit row Because I've never felt so safe in a row on an airplane before. But I asked, I get chatty sometimes. So I, um, no. What? A podcast is?

I made small talk with them and I asked how they met. And they have the craziest story I've ever heard. They were both, um, they both had the same mutual friend. Um, and they didn't know each other, but they wanted to be, they wanted to be moms. And they asked their individual friend to be their donor. and so he never told the other one he just was donated to them both women ended up getting pregnant

never knew that they both had what? They both never even knew that they had kids from the same father who was their mutual friend and that because I guess he made an agreement that he like wouldn't be sharing that information. Sure, same donor, sure sure, sure. And then he

passed away but right before he passed away he told them I just want you to know that your son has a brother out there and so the two moms were like well we should get together so our sons can meet so they have each other and then they fell in love at that first play date oh my god so then they're half they're each of their sons are half brothers but they're also now stepbrothers by because they got married so that is bananas isn't that crazy chicken skin that's a great movie do you think they call each other half brothers

I know that's like my biggest pet peeve I know I guess if you're a half brother and a stepbrother you might as well as to be the full deal of that way. That's an incredible story. That feels like Yvesa like a movie. Like that feels like we need to write a screenplay. Absolutely. That breaks every code on the Hayes code.

Right. You have to make sure all of it has to break the code. Yeah. No, I thought that was super interesting. Anyway, sorry. But I now it just happened. And so like I can't stop talking about it. I'm just like, I'll never hear a story like that.

I mean, what a story. Yeah. You know they love when people are like, how'd you mean? And they're like, sit down. Literally one of them rolled her eyes and went, oh, brother. Not again. And they're like, yes, we have been approached about a television show.

No, we're not interested. Baby Lynn. Wow, that's cool. Oh, well, this was so fun, you guys. I mean, unless anyone has anything else to add, I think we've really run the gamut here on topics. You know, I'd actually, it's so funny, I want to ask all of you. So I was getting ready for this episode, right? I didn't, I did not Google the bus fee.

You googled the least one day. I don't believe you because that answer was so much. I'm telling you that was made. Yeah, Russia, maybe you have the same intuition as you bet, but it just is like manifests in a different way. It's just not like Disney. But the thing about Russia is she does not lie. So let's just, yeah, does not lie. Yeah, this is true.

I do not lie. And you can see it on my face. That's good to know. That's good to know. Yeah. You don't strike me as someone who would just make that up. Yeah. No.

And I like, and I'm such. an open book but preparing for this this episode i'm like i have to rewatch disclosure the the documentary by leverne cox yes i never actually watched that oh my gosh you should watch it's amazing it's so yeah it's heartbreaking and it's incredible and you know i i can't remember if it came out in 2020 or 2021 i only got to rewatch like a like 37 minutes of it but like early this morning but i i i had Evette watch it. You know, my wife and I watch it together. And I had no idea. That was right during 2020. 2020. 2020. Yeah. And so LaVern and so many other trans creators and actors and just these amazing creative humans were talking about the history in Hollywood. And they didn't talk about the

Hays Code specifically or they may have. I can't remember. I didn't get to that part. But basically queer people in media have always been placed as the villain really from like the beginning sure and you don't think about it like the things that I would think were funny like I love the movie like soap dish right and you know Kathy Moriarty you know comes out and they find out that she was trans and like you know like I laughed at that and like I didn't like it's just it's so sad and it just makes my heart break especially for the trans community. and the entire queer community, but I just love so much that there's so much more representation now. Yeah.

And that you can talk about it, right? I mean, 100%. Yeah. And that's the thing, like back then, because of the Hays Code and because of all these different things, like you could not find representation. Right? That's why M had the clock and be like, yep. There's four. We're reading the room at four years old, yeah.

I was like, I don't know if you're gay, but you're coming with me. Exactly. And like, yeah, see, Vett said, like, we have our beautiful Uncle John and Uncle Michael who have been together for over 45 years and the most beautiful relationship in our family. But I personally never had any queer, cisgendered female representation for me. You know what I mean? Like, in the media or in person, because in Hawaii, like, we had Mahou. And that's like two spirit, the equivalent of two spirit in the Hawaiian culture or trans, you know, in the Hawaiian culture.

But I just, I love that we're all out here, right? I know. It's three out of the four of us are queer. Yvette's the biggest ally ever. But I'm the minority of the room. I think that's the beauty of it, you know, like Rasha and I are 11 years apart. I am still constantly learning. And I think that's what people need to do.

They need to open their mind and just be accepting of human beings and be kind to one another. What is so fucking hard about that? It's the fear. I think people are afraid. People are so afraid. And it's like even when there's nothing to be afraid of, it's like they turn into this. I mean, speaking of like making monsters out of things, you know. And like also Russia, like off of what you said of like they queer folks have always been villainized or trans folks have been villainized.

like when you mentioned that movie soap dish it's also like not only villainized but also like a laughing stalk so it's like either you're like the villain like the bad guy you want them to lose and or oftentimes both you're like a caricature and like you know you don't nobody wants to be that guy or whatever if you're watching um what was the one that we were oh like captain hook like nobody right nobody wants to be oh i love that guy you know right i want to be captain hugh yeah insidious yeah yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, uh, I, my, I feel the same way about the movie Ace Ventura when the villain was literally, it was like a mystery, who done it, and no one could figure out who did it because, spoiler alert, the woman at the end had had transitioned. I don't think I ever watched that movie. At the time, it was not referred to as the woman had transitioned and now she's, you know, a woman and she's nobody can tell who's the guy right yeah yeah and it was i remember loving that movie

and now when i watch it i'm like oh this just hits every bad nail on the head yeah and uh but so that was corny cox wasn't it was it i don't remember anymore i remember jim carey and that's kind of it right no it wasn't kim cox it was oh my god oh my god this gonna draw me nuts she was really good friends with Madonna like I can't think of her name oh please Christina Sandra Ventura Sean Sean

Oh it was Courtney Cox Was it? Oh it was but was Courtney the one who was trans Oh Sean Young I don't I don't know I just remember the guy's name was Sean Young okay yeah Sean Young Yeah it was her

I was her But I mean I remember back then thinking that movie was hysterical And now I can look back and I can go Oh my God And, like, especially as someone who is now on my own gender journey, I'm like, what are the odds I'd laugh at that? But Jafar was fine. But so it's, there's mentioning that you guys are, you know, that some people are too afraid to be willing to unpack. I think a lot of it also has to do with, like, the shame and embarrassment of knowing you used to be part of that culture.

And so it used to be part of the community that. It's hard to look inward like that. Yeah. Yeah, so, yeah. Yeah, it's just, I think, important to that everyone be fine with knowing that, like, you started in a, maybe in a worse place than you are today. It's okay. You just got to keep learning.

Just like you've had said, keep evolving, keep learning. Keep evolving. Keep learning. Do you. To make the world a better place. Yeah. Hopefully. We're trying.

Every day. One person at a time. One person at a time. Yeah. well thank you so much this was so fun we never have guests so like I was really nervous but you guys are awesome and we appreciate you and you're just like rays of sunshine so thank you for brightening my day you guys are raised of sunshine I feel like I got really weird with the Grinch of the beginning and I do apologize but um beyond that I've had a pretty wonderful experience and we're going to watch the Grinch the same again I mean and I'm talking the old version like the 60s one that probably also didn't fall the He's quote, but I don't fucking know, but it was from 19, like, 1962, and it's the only one I like, and I'm very, I'm a pure, I'm a Grinch Purist. See, I'm making it weird again. All right, let's do. You're not making it weird. You're not making it weird. I like the Benedict Cumberbush. Yeah, I do too. I do too. That's the only other one I'll accept. Thank you. I'm literally, I'm literally, I've been listening to the Hercules soundtrack. And now, and that's a good. Hades is like a whole, you know, experience for me now that I'm just going to go. Excellent. Oh, he's on the list of the list of the, the Buzzfeed. I should send you guys the list because the like little annotated notes about each character are very fun. About how they're queer. I would love to read it. Yeah, about like why and how

and their road rage and all that. Like things that you wouldn't necessarily come up with yourself. Well, thank you so much. Yeah. Where can people find you? At so supernatural pod on Instagram at Rasha Piccarero at YW Blend. I'm talking all over my sister Which is fine, it's fine, I'm used to it Sisters are allowed to do that, I think Yeah, so supernaturalpodcast.com, evet and rasha.com Oh, cute.

All the dot com. So supernatural drops every Friday, wherever you get your podcast. And it's a really fun show, guys, and especially if you're listening to doing this way drink. It's just an easy transition, supernatural. Come on. Yeah, it makes sense. All right, thank you everybody.

Thank you so much. We'll talk to you. We adore you. Outside the podcast. Ever wondered if that UFO sighting was a secret government project? Not because they didn't go to the moon, but because they seen something on the moon they weren't supposed to. Or if ancient civilizations really had alien architects. Like, so Roswell, obviously, they think they recovered crafts and beings.

On theorist theorizing, wild speculation meets season storytelling. How they dug two kilometers below these pure. Pyramids and created all the structures that we're now finding. Join the theorists as they dive into UFOs, cryptids, government cover-ups, true crime, and the weirdest theories the Internet and humanity has to offer. Giza and the pyramids itself being an energy source, you know? It's not a lecture. It's a roundtable of curiosity, comedy, and what if? Maybe they got tipped off by these U-boats that fled to Argentina that there was something there.

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