And That's Why We Drink - E173 Mongoose Cam and a New Gemini Icon

Episode Date: May 24, 2020

Be sure to watch your chickens this week because Gef the Gemini, oh and spectral, Mongoose just might come after them! Em takes us all the way to the Isle of Man for the wild story of Gef the Mongoose in the second part of their series on the life of Harry Price. Then Christine covers the highly debated Smiley Face Killings and we consider just how ancient smiley face graffiti may actually be. We're also feeling pretty dragged by this 80 year old mongoose and his Gemini ways... and that's why we gossip then vanish!Please consider supporting the companies that support us! You can grow thicker, healthier hair AND support our show by going to Nutrafol.com and using promo code DRINK to get 20% off! Try Thrive Market and become a member risk-free! Go to ThriveMarket.com/DRINK for $20 in shopping credit towards your first order! Right now, our listeners get a special offer from Stamps.com that includes a 4-week trial PLUS free postage AND a digital scale without any long-term commitment. Just go to Stamps.com, click on the Microphone at the TOP of the homepage and type in DRINK

thank you to myself as i drink thank you thank you hands for passing on the juice box to my mouth beautiful hands for all you do for me including touch my face even though i'm not allowed to do that anymore even though we like not allowed to do that anymore. Even though we like super shouldn't do it. Yeah. I guess we're already recording. So this is our intro. Hello, everyone. Where I'm just saying thank you, hands, for bringing the juice box to my lips. Well, thank you, hands, for bringing some booze to my mouth, even though it's only 3.30. But that's okay. I need it. So it's, it's 330. And like, whatever the real world used to be, but one day, we should just break all the clocks during

quarantine, because what the hell is time? Yeah, the the other day, you said something to me like, Oh, well, are you thinking Friday or Saturday or something like that? And I was like, I literally don't know. Like, I have no concept of either one. So just pick. Isn't today Friday and Saturday? What day is it? Time is a construct. I know it. Well, I, uh, yep.

That's pretty much it. I was just going to tell you another example. The end. The exact same thing. Well, we have exciting news. Okay. Yes. Our birthdays were coming up and we were like, well, we're Gemini's as everyone has been calling out that meme that says a group of Gemini's is called a podcast, which, yeah,

I mean, they're not wrong. And we were like, what do we do? Our birthdays are coming up. We want to do something special. And so we've decided to do you want to announce it? Yes. Also, by the way, I do want to say I like how we were like i don't remember days anymore yeah we're like we remember one two days remember this specific day so obviously our birthday is june 3rd and june 4th and we don't get to see each other so we were like how do we do something together but with you guys too so the day after our birthday is june 5th we are going to be doing our very first live digital show yeah it's a benefit show so all the proceeds are going to be doing our very first live digital show. It's a benefit show.

So all the proceeds are going to go to COVID relief. I believe to the coalition for the homeless national coalition for the homeless is the, the beneficiary of our cool show. And so we don't, I basically, it's going to not be our actual our current here for the booze tour that is not what this is so if you can't do that over zoom unfortunately we can't and if you plan

on like if you already have tickets to the here for the booze tour you are not seeing it now that's true yeah you know i mean this is not spoiling anything for the real no no this is uh kind of like our our old school original tour where we're just we're doing live show notes and so but we're gonna be live on zoom with whoever wants to come it's gonna be ten dollar tickets as your donation and um it's gonna be june 5th 5 pacific standard time 8 eastern standard time and oh my gosh i'm excited. It's gonna we don't know how many people we can do yet, right? It's gonna be like a certain amount of several hundreds. Yeah, we're trying to figure out with zoom how well Eva is trying to figure out with zoom how many people we can fit. And so basically, once people start, I guess buying tickets, we'll figure out kind of

where we stand. Right as far as like a limit if there is one. But yeah, so we're going to do it's basically like a live episode. And it's a birthday bash. And yeah, and and I don't know, COVID relief fund benefit. It's a lot of birthday benefit bash. Oh, there it is. Triple B, triple B, triple B. Anyway, it will be it'll be june 5th and um

hopefully you can make it it's a friday and it'll be dinner time roughly at least in america across the board so yeah and um we're gonna i'm gonna be drinking we're gonna be having fun and um i don't think we're gonna share it afterward because we wanted to just be like a live show. So if you want to see it, come join us. And I mean, I guess we don't have the ticket link yet, but we'll get that. We'll post that on our socials as soon as we have it. Yeah. And this comes out with only like a week and a half left. So I think by the time we've announced this, it'll probably already be up.

You're right. You're right. But just a reminder, if you're thinking about it it you only have like a week or so left so just you know anyway very excited that's our big big news i also have a little bit of news which i'm really excited about is that i was um actually able to guest on morbid this week and i was so excited because um a lot of you know that M was on last week and it was a great episode and a lot of people were like well when's Christine going on and I was like well I can't tell you I don't think because I don't want to spoil their show so I just didn't say anything but I was on and it was super fun and the theme was like twisty turny stories so the stories I

shared had like a a surprise twist ending um and so that's out now too so check out morbid they're our new pals and we really like them and they are just as nice as you imagine they are when you listen to the show you're like i bet they're great people they're fucking delights they are and they also are in boston which is like our semi-hometown our honor i like to think of them as our love children. No? Our love partners in crime? Don't say no.

Say yes. I'm in. They are our love children. Okay. They don't know it yet, but. Hopefully someone lets them know. But yes, I'm very excited to listen to your episode. And you also, what was I going to say?

I don't remember. what is going on with me was it about paranormal captivity no no i just well that's not it is now that's not out yet m was on recently um but i'm our my episode has not come out yet i hope eva doesn't mind that i've spoiled that um but it's coming out in a few weeks so stay tuned because that one was also super fun right um but yeah now right yeah sorry um okay no you're not anyway uh that's it do you have any updates oh i have an update that nobody cares about but i am the one with the microphone so fantastic uh i as of the end of this week will have finished not finished i'll have finished a chunk of my pokemon collection of what's what defines a chunk well so it's like the a fraction of them i'm currently trying to

collect four different decks and it's very calm i've made it complicated because i'm me but sure so basically i at the end of this week i'll at least have all of the cards from one of the decks but then that's just like the first step of it and then i want to start trading them for better quality cards oh so but i'll at least have like the first i mean i they're all like pretty good quality i like didn't want to start with like crap cards so they're all at least pretty good like near mint but i want to start trading them out for better quality for mint oh i know anyway that's my that's my update but i think a lot of people care about that actually like i really do a lot of people are very big pokemon folks i'm surprised how many people on like instagram live and things

like that ask me about my pokemon collection and some people know you care so much and it's important to you it's so sweet but a lot of people have asked me to eventually like show them you like like show them in my binder oh you should do like a live or something okay instagram probably will i'll watch any that i'm interested to see it um anyway that's very exciting uh i have not do not have any exciting news like that on my end so i'm sorry i have no collection to let you know about that's fine i'm here for the two of us yay um so my story just jumping into it uh last week was harry price the original ghost hunter yes and i told you guys so this is actually kind of i think my first three-parter oh yeah i don't think you've or what was the oh

wait no what was this time three-parter right i think that was a two-parter oh maybe yeah okay then maybe it is if i haven't done one before this is the first. So that's generally how that works. It's got to start somewhere. But so I did Harry Price and I told you guys last week that I was going to be covering two individual cases that he worked on that like I just the notes were already so long last week. I knew I couldn't get through those two cases and do justice on them. get through those two cases and do justice on them. So I told you about the seance of Rosalie, which I actually ended up pushing to next week, because I ended up finding a lot about this case. And so this one has also been widely requested across Twitter and my Instagram DMs for a while now. But this is the case of Jeff the talking mongoose. Oh, shit. I'm so excited. This is one of those weird ones that I feel like lives in the back of my subconscious and I don't have any clue what it is, but I need to know more. Well, I also, I actually, after this also want to learn more because there's a lot of really good podcasts, like well-known podcasts that covered this in depth and I just

didn't get to listen to them. So this is without any of that knowledge. Okay. Um, but this is without any of that knowledge okay um but this is just what google could provide so um so jeff the talking mongoose is also known as the dolby spook because it was in an area called dolby um so this was in 1931 and harry price doesn't get mentioned too much in this but he does make his little appearance because like i said last week this we're now in the paranormal cinematic universe um so we'll get there so in 1931 in a village called the cashin's gap which is apparently near dalby um what country are we in so this is the british isles so this is the the is of Man. Okay. Is what it's called. And we're at a remote farmhouse away from everybody. Nice.

And I love a good remote farmhouse on the British Isles. We're going to probably get murdered there, but that's okay. So there was a family of three. This was the Irving family. So their names were James, Margaret, and then they had a 13-year daughter named voyrey i had not heard that name before me neither maybe it's a british isles name sure um but it's v-o-i-r-r-e-y oh cool yeah um so also in my frantic notes i interchange james with jimmy so every now and then i'm like, what's Jimmy up to? Sometimes we're a little more casual with him. I mean, Jimothy is the real appropriate.

May I call you Jimothy? You may. So James had been a wealthy businessman. I saw in one source that he was like a piano salesman. Oh, okay. But then apparently that tanked and so he ended up uh taking up farming so that's why they moved to the farmhouse and his family was struggling because i guess the area i don't know anything about this area but apparently it's super

super remote like they don't know anybody and you couldn't if you wanted to because there was nobody there um so they were basically in extreme isolation and they were struggling a lot they were i guess an older couple and they also didn't have electricity or a phone so they really were just by themselves in this house excuse me and that comes back later this is definitely like a murder it sounds like a murder story like why would you move somewhere where you will probably get murdered when you're more likely to than not? What year was this? 1931. Oh, okay. I was like, no electricity. Okay, that makes a little more sense to me. Yeah. Got it. Got it. Got it. So one night they're having dinner and all of a sudden they hear this scratching and growling behind one of their

wall panels. Yeah, told you. What did I tell you it's actually christine in the wall ready to tell you that you're gonna get killed but also i'm like help i'm stuck i don't know how i got so lost but i how did i get to the british aisles and also why am i inside your i would take a wrong turn and end up in the fucking isle of man by i remember that time you left me in canada you were like okay bye i you you guys i like i know we've mentioned this before but like i literally one time abandoned em and eva in canada like in the country and i left the country without them i am like of all places like thank god that's where i want to know but at the same time like we got to the airport and Chris,

I don't forget what the issue was, but all of a sudden Christine was like, well, I have to go now. And I was like, it was so bad. I was like crying. It was not just that casual. I definitely like, we got to the airport late because of me. Cause I didn't realize we had to get there two and a half hours early or they wouldn't let us board and um since we had all this luggage they said yeah you can board but you can't bring any luggage and we were like well we need to bring our luggage and then they were like okay well one of you can board now or two of you can board now and the last person can stay with the luggage and Eva's like I'll stay with the luggage and then Em was like no I'll stay with you and I was meeting Blaze. I was not gonna leave our assistant. No I know I know and the only reason

I went on the plane I wouldn't have otherwise is because Blaze had already gotten to Portland and we were meeting there that morning and I had like all the Airbnb information and so he was like I'm here and I was like well I have to go meet Blaze otherwise I'll be six hours late. I felt I remember just like being so fucking tired because it was like six in the morning yeah and i remember hearing like well one of you has to stay and i remember seeing like the slow turn i literally turned like like 2.02 miles an hour back to you i was like are you in and then i just like handed you guys my luggage and was like okay see, see you in another country. I think your last words were like, I won't be surprised if you throw my luggage away.

Yeah, truly. And I wouldn't have blamed you for one second. I had a blast. By the way, if I were to get stuck in an airport, like that specific airport, let alone Canada, but that was a massive fucking airport. And they had every Canadian tchotchke store I could ever want. So I had a great time. Eva bought me Starbucks.

I know. And then I got jealous, which is the worst part. Because I'm like, I just turned them in another country. And then I look and they're like having a ball. And I'm like, oh, I wish I were there. And then I was like, wait, no, I don't. I just abandoned them there. I'm sorry.

That was like such a. But truly, this is exactly the reason I would end up in a foreign country by accident because I got lost on the way to Kroger. Like that's typically how I end up in these bad scenarios. You can stay in that fucking cabin, Christine, and get murdered. You owe me. So, oh, yeah. So we're back at Christine being in the walls. So they heard the scratching and growling behind the wall panels, and they thought it was a small animal, not Christine. Definitely not a small animal. And so James, he tried to growl at it and bang on the walls to try to scare it out, thinking it was maybe a rat or something. But it growled back as loudly as he did. So no.

So the noises apparently never stopped and it just slowly continued and slowly got worse. And it ended up not just being random growls. It became like a range of animal sounds that could also imitate him. So if he made a sound, it could like parrot what he was doing. No pun intended but he um then it got to a point where he was he realized he was teaching this thing how to imitate

to a point where he could later on just say the name of like a random bird and it would know the bird call what like recall the bird and it was still in the wall it was still in the wall like not eating like the f just hanging out just doing bird calls which by the way is the most like dad thing like i'm gonna go live in a far off remote area and teach something on my walls random bird calls yeah because why not all right so then he slowly moved from just animal noises to like starting to uh sing like nursery rhymes and he was like maybe i can get to like hum the nursery rhymes but then he slowly started noticing that instead of animal noises it was changing into baby cooing noises oh oh god almost as if it was learning how to speak to imitate the nursery rhymes i just got like

goosebumps i don't even know why. Goose cam. Oh, get it? Mongoose cam. Holy shit. Hang on. Wait a minute. That's the graphic of this episode.

Mongoose cam. Wait a minute. Get out of here. Every episode from now on is going to be called that because I'll never come up with something so clever again for the rest of my life. Well, I'm glad you found your calling finally. My one, one very sad calling. Yes.

So soon the family, so they were hearing baby noises and then eventually the Irving family, quote, her definite words issuing from the walls. No, thank you. And soon it was able to not just hum the nursery rhymes that James had been kind of teaching it, but it was singing them, like repeating the nursery rhymes. Can you imagine though, like ring around the rosy, like that's, I told you, this is like a horror cabin.

If it's like a bar trick, I would at least bring the landlord in to be like, this is why I'm leaving. Like I have concrete evidence for why i should not be here anymore the landlord in their remote 1930s for this cabin yeah he has like a whole condo complex of these but so uh this was a quote from jim about the voices or about this creature that was now speaking. Quote,

it announces its presence by calling either myself or my wife by our Christian names. Oh no. And it's hearing powers are phenomenal. It is no use whispering in our house. It detects the whisper 15 to 20 feet away, tells you that you're whispering and repeats exactly what you said ew so it can hear everything and now it's moved on from nursery rhymes to literally just talking to you yeah um and soon this thing could speak fluently no and introduced himself as jeff

so it just learned the name je. Like nobody taught it that name. It just like came up with it. It clearly didn't know how to spell it though because it was G-E-F. Wait, that's really cute. It's kind of like how like when you go to Disneyland and like Pluto spells his name

with like a backwards P or something. It's kind of precious in like the creepiest way imaginable. Anyway, he says his name is jeff apparently he's an 80 year old mongoose from delhi india what the and he's a gemini see that explains that literally did he say that he was a gemini he was born june 7th 1852 and that's literally that explains so much i'm going to sit here and say like I kind of relate to Jeff. I understand Jeff.

There's a reason we both like really strongly gravitate toward Jeff. I think. Yeah, I and also like it's fucking Gemini season or at least when this comes out, it's about to be Gemini season. So we're on the cusp and Jeff is fucking ready to party. So he's been ready for 80 years so my first thought was how the hell did he get here from india correct apparently he says he was hunted and he ended up escaping straight to the british isles that's how i got there too i got well i got lost on the way to kroger but similar story, by the way, isn't the mainland. So he just went and took a little dip.

He just did a little paddle in the pool and ended up there. So apparently Jeff, I don't know how, because he's on a remote farm with three people who only speak English. But apparently he also taught himself, he was learning english taught himself french german russian yiddish welsh flemish spanish and hebrew flemish okay here we go all from india apparently um so sure he started holding like legitimate conversations with them as you can tell that's a lot of information to have said yes um but so so he tells, when they ask like, what the fuck are you? Which like is a fair question.

Jeff told them that he is quote, an earthbound spirit and a ghost in the form of a mongoose. Has he just like, so first he's just a mongoose and he's like, hmm, let's make this more interesting. he's just a mongoose and he's like, hmm, let's make this more interesting. I'm an 80 year old alive or dead mongoose that's been possessed by someone who is a polyglot. And also I'm a Gemini. But most importantly, I'm a Gemini. It sounds like my resume. Sounds like my Instagram bio. Definitely you and all your 11 languages that you speak. Yeah. That's, you know what,ff has me beat by 10 at least by 10 only so uh here's the thing about jeff where it gets a little wild because he seems to how do i put this jeff seems to have a complex oh well he's a gemini i, don't we all? But so he has very wild mood swings. Oh, so he has two very different

moods. One is very fun and one is very not fun. Oh, no. So the Irving family said that when Jeff is in good spirits, I'm going to list all the fun things about Jeff first, the good side of of who he is. All right, I'll hold on to that part because there's some real interesting things here that make me want to be homies with jeff okay so jeff when he's in a good mood he would guard the house and tell them when guests were arriving because i guess he's like i don't know if he's like explained yet if he's like going through the walls or if he's like how he's how he knows this stuff maybe his hearing is that good he can like hear when someone's coming i guess also yeah and also he's if he's maybe a spirit then he can kind of go anywhere right that's probably true i wonder why if you could go anywhere that you would go

into the wall of a cabin but i guess that's none of my business jeff has his own agenda okay clearly um so they he guards the house he tells guests or he tells them when guests are arriving sometimes Jeff has his own agenda. Okay. Clearly. So they, he guards the house. He tells guests or he tells them when guests are arriving. Sometimes if people forgot to put the fire out, he would put the fire out in their fireplaces at night. He would wake you up. If you overslept,

he would scare away the mice. He would talk about their private lives with them as a, like a little advice. Wiseman. Yeah. Sometimes he even left the lives with them as a like a little advice wise man yeah um sometimes he even left the house with them oh they never saw him but in spirit he says that really he said that his physical form was there but you could never see it because he was always hiding behind the hedges oh but but you knew he was there,

because apparently he still talked the whole time. Like, you could still hear his voice. He just never shuts up, huh? Gemini. Gemini. So he would bode well with a podcaster. I was going to say, he probably already has one. So, yeah, so he would apparently leave the house,

and you knew he was there, because he still wouldn't shut up. You just could never see him. he would apparently leave the house and you knew he was there because he still wouldn't shut up you just could never see him um and oh he would also apparently uh kill there was like a massive rabbit population so he would kill a lot of the rabbits and leave them on their doorstep for like dinner yum um and apparently he did this so well that the irvings ended up making a side hustle out of selling their bulk rabbits in the city they're like like, Oh, don't worry, our dead mongoose caught these. Our mongoose phantom in the hedges. I cannot a mongoose phantom. We have some competition for the title of this episode. Among us. No, he's always among us. Among us. among us wait it depends on which of the 11

languages you're speaking i think that's that's the real key i think so uh he also would stick up for them like i guess if the irvings ever complained about their like one neighbor um he would offer to attack their livestock oh that'd be wow he'd be like i'll fight them don't okay i'll fight their cows don't worry i'll let them know jeff is here um and so he also apparently was really protective of their daughter uh he was known to tell jokes he would sing songs his favorite songs were carolina moon the national anthem and home on the range wow very americana here i i see interesting americana for uh indian brit yeah wait um and the uh irving's also i guess they got so used to him being around they like felt obligated to feed him since he's maybe alive

and so uh they would leave him chocolate and fruit in the ceiling beams for him to get by himself when no one was looking and the food would disappear so they're like okay well i guess he's actually eating it apparently his uh this is one of my favorite quotes that i read about jeff and this by the way if this doesn't scream Gemini. Oh, quote. Actually, I'm going to read both of my favorite quotes at the same time. Okay. Very Gemini. And also like perfectly like the balance between our two twin personalities.

Oh God, here we go. Quote, Jeff would sleep in voyeur's room, eat bacon and sausages, ride the bus and bring back gossip about the neighbors. When he was done with a conversation with anyone he would just scream out vanish and simply disappear back into the woods

oh my god ev this is my this is truly like my new icon my new gemini icon he really was just like i'm here to gossip and then never mind, I'm done. Vanish. Get away from me. Back off. They didn't even have to tell me what his birthday was. I knew the second I read that sentence, that guy is a goddamn Gemini. I want to be embarrassed, but really, I'm just kind of proud of our people. I feel dragged by an 80-year-old mongoose. Who ever thought that sentence would come out of your mouth? Let me read it again. Let me read it again.

Okay, okay. Okay. Jeff would eat bacon and sausage and ride the bus just to bring back gossip about the neighbors. When he was done with a conversation with anyone, he would simply scream out vanish and disappear back into the walls. I mean, come on. I mean, this mongoose cam all the way. I'm all over this guy i feel like i have a mirror held up to me truly so i said all that while you still loved him oh no oh no because

he also has a negative side right oh shit my siri literally just said i know right because i yelled oh no that scared me really badly i think wait is and now that we're in the digital age are the walls phones could jeff just be here is this a mongoose anyway i'm pretty sure wait a minute is siri a mongoose um i i wow that just scared me and i think my my uh siri is, finally, someone's fucking calling you out. Gemini ass. So Jeff does have a negative side. And so I wrote them out.

So these are several quotes that he has said, but I wrote them out in the list of like, kind of general rudeness all the way down to like, all the way down to like rudeness all the way down to like i think jeff needs to see someone oh so um the first one that the nicest one is him just being like kind of petty which like i can still relate sure sure uh we're not perfect you might think so but you might have definitely thought so and if you thought otherwise you were wrong yeah right true so jeff says um this is his rude one quote i have been to nicer homes than this carpets piano satin covers on polished tables i'm going back there kind of just sounds like my

grandma where have you taken me right i don't want to be here what is this trash heap and then i just scream vanish vanish get stuck in your gross grandma okay um and then the next level i i named these these levels but i called this one annoyance uh-huh and jeff said this was also actually this is kind of just a gemini thing um apparently he just liked to bother the family every now and then just to like be like a little burst of chaos a nuisance and so he um apparently sometimes would just like heavily sigh and groan and be dramatic for 30 minutes that's us just so when the family would go why are you doing this like shut up and then he would scream back i did it for devilment devilment like like like amusement

but like mischievous like devilish entertainment oh my god i read that and i went i've also done things for devil i think most of the things we do are for devilment for sure i so all of this so far i relate to you but then we get into the part where i don't identify with which is no the next level i've i've deemed threat oh no which uh he has been known to say some pretty dark things amongst them he has said if you are kind to me i will bring you luck and if you are not i will kill all your poultry i can get them wherever you put them aka don't try to hide them don't try to hide them in the walls because that's where i live even if you hit them in the walls that's the first place i'll look oh my god that's pretty fucking vicious then we move on to the category i've deemed scary where jeff has said quote i am the ghost in the form of a weasel and i shall haunt you you don't know what damage or

harm i could do if i were roused i could kill you all but i won't what a little brat also kind of a gem and i think to say but it is a little bit i'll kill you all if you annoy me any further so i'm gonna piss you off and leave but if you do it back you better watch your chicken because i know where i should put it oh my god okay and then this is the like this is like the actual like really fucked up one oh no goose camp so like i know we're joking a lot for all the gemini's out there who are like gonna email me saying that I'm identifying this with an actual complex. I'm not. Gemini's just happen to be a little crazy sometimes, but this is drinks their juice box.

But this is, this is actually like the, the banana grams version. So Jeff, apparently this is all several sentences separated up. So these were from different conversations um but i just kind of put them together just to get through this little section so jeff has said the following i'll split the atom i'm the fifth dimension i am the eighth

wonder of the world i am a freak i have hands and i have feet and if you saw me you'd faint you'd be petrified mummified turned into stone or a pillar of salt oh jesus so like that's where like the full-blown unstableness of this yeah this is a little creepy that if I heard an 80 year old mongoose in my walls say anything in English let alone those things I would be like exterminator or I walk. I think if I saw a mongoose, an 80 year old mongoose period, I would call an exterminator and be like, help me, please. I don't even care if it speaks English. And then all of a sudden it starts like singing like Russian hymns or something. Oh my God. Wait, what? I'm sorry. Just to clarify, did they ever see it? Because he just said if you,

but it said he comes out and talks to you and then disappears back into the wall, but you can't actually see him. He's always hiding. Okay, good question. So anytime that they have talked to him, it's they're literally like just talking through the wall to him. Oh, so even when he screams vanish, he's just like, he's like, it's literally like him just being like, goodbye.

Telling you to go away. Yeah. Okay. This is me vanishing. I'm leaving. And we know he's a mongoose because he said he's a mongoose. Right. Got it.

And a mongoose is a weasel situation. Right? Something of the sort. I think it always confused me because it sounds like a goose, but it's not a goose. It's a, it's a, it's a. It's like a ferret-y. A mammal. Yeah.

So we'll get there. Okay. But so he's saying a lot of nonsense like that that was just like a sampling a smattering if you will um but he's also he also starts getting physical this is where i started thinking this was like a poltergeist situation because it started with growls and then they like kept giving it energy and now it's like talking a lot and like taking it with them outside of the house and stuff following them around and it's also getting protective of things and now it's also starting to get a little hectic for me this is okay okay and now some physical manifestations where he's now throwing things at them oh god so it either we don't know if this was like him in the walls throwing things physically or if he was like telekinetically right um but some of the

things he does have hands and feet that would make you like turn into a pillar of salt so i like that he announced that he has hands and feet because i wasn't sure yeah me neither to be to be fair he uh i like how he said i'm a freak i have hands and feet and also if you saw me you'd be petrified i was like i think that that part actually i was like okay this still fits our gemini profile like i'm a freak and don't fucking hit me and i'm the eighth wonder of the world so watch your shit the world there that's that's kind of where i was like i don't know i still still relate. But anyway. So apparently he started throwing some things, including jars, rocks, stones, sand.

And apparently there was one case of furniture being thrown. Oh, geez. This is poltergeisty. He was throwing it at them, but he was also throwing things at the windows from the outside of the house. Oh. So like at night, all of a sudden, like rocks would be hitting their windows nobody would be outside so there were um also rare occasions when he started getting or at least having so much energy that he was able to try to barge into people's rooms by breaking down their doors oh great so some there were some times where they actually had tried to barge into people's rooms by breaking down their doors oh great so some there were some times where they actually had tried to barricade themselves all in one room oh my god and one time that happened and this is a quote from that soon we saw the top of the door bulging

in as though some terrific force were thrusting against it but the door held then jeff's voice said i'm coming in and a few seconds later a heavy pot of ointment kept in the room crashed on its own against the bed frame oh so now he's like telepathically moving things in rooms he can't get into okay also remember i told you he was protective of the daughter now it sounds like he's fixated on the daughter because now he's obviously getting a little aggressive and voyry the daughter began getting nervous to be alone obviously and so the parents moved her bed into their room and he started screaming i'll follow her wherever you move her just like those chickens just like those fucking i follow chickens too so i i know where he's coming from that's at the grocery store um so what's interesting about

this is different articles said different things some said that he started out really nice but then he started getting darker some said that it was always interchangeable and you never knew which version of jeff you were going to get and some said he actually started out really dark and then they eventually kind of came to a truce. And he was very nice after that. And I think that's what happened. I think he was originally, I think it was probably always interchangeable, but they still kind of like loved his gossip or something. And so, yeah, like it's worth it for now. Yeah, because they never in this whole story, they never asked for help from anyone to get rid of this thing.

And they never even thought about moving. I think it was just like they kind of lived with like a shitty roommate. Wow. I think that's how they saw it. We've all been there. And probably we were that shitty roommate since we're kind of. We definitely were trying to break down their doors for sure. And throw ointment everywhere.

So, even when he was in a good mood, he was like jeff himself seemed unsure of his own abilities so that's where like the real um uh skepticism really kicks in with the real skepticism kicks in this is a fucking talking bongo's but like if it were real to others and like if we were really believing this as fact even jeff's story never really stayed straight so uh sometimes he seemed more like a ghost or a poltergeist sometimes he seemed more like a cryptid sometimes he was neither and he was like just this weird mystical creature and he himself would just call himself an extra extra clever mongoose wow of course so extra clever that i now have vocal cords and can speak english and flemish too and also make things move when i'm not there what the fuck

so uh margaret the wife at one point even like shouted at jeff and was like hey you know my husband's not home yet where is he and jeff said i don't know i have not got my magic phones on what okay and but then so like in times like that it sounds like he's like this mystical yeah sprite of sorts right but then there's other times where they would ask him questions specifically about death because he was a ghost he said and they would ask him questions about death and he would have answers for that so like they said oh what is death and he said oh it's simply a changeover so like he seemed a changeover into a talking mongoose into a mongoose uh but so he i guess the story gets starts getting more twisted and that like we don't really know is he a ghost or is he a cryptid or is he like some sort of um there was one story that suggested he was somehow part of witchcraft like he was

actually a legitimate mongoose that was like possessed or something oh um kind of like uh banks from right like text yeah yeah uh so eventually they also began to see jeff this is to answer your question earlier they started to see him in glimpses very quick glimpses and he was described uh pretty universally like the story changed every now and then but for the most part it was understood that um james described him as a nine inch long yellow ferret weasel breed, um, with a long bushy tail with black speckles. He was that small? I pictured a much bigger animal. I did too.

I thought he was going to be like, like snake size. Yeah. Like a big, big boy. A big boy. Um, and so they got glimpses every now and then, but Voirie said that she could see him in full moments, not just glimpses. So they would actually look at each other. Wow.

And she added the fact that he actually has a snout like a hedgehog. Oh, that's specific. So the local papers had heard about this, you know, just from, I guess, them talking in town about this fucking mongoose. Yep. And so the local papers ran articles about the Dalby spook and left. This led Jeff's story spreading to the mainland. And at that point, it kind of became this like wild sensation of like a potentially talking possessed mongoose in someone's house.

And so several news outlets picked it up and that led to a bunch of, remember, this is right around spiritualism resurgence. And so a lot of paranormal investigators and spiritualists and skeptics all wanted to come to the house to investigate Jeff, one of them being Harry price. So, um,

some reporters actually swear that they also saw glimpses of jeff and that they got pictures but it really just looked like a really blurry squirrel like i didn't actually think it was him um and some also swear that they heard jeff's voice one of them even said that jeff um gave this guy betting tips for one of the races coming up oh wow that's finally he's also a gambler i guess so one thing that people actually did well i guess this is like one of the running theories but they figured that there might be mongooses in the area because back in 1912 a farmer supposedly introduced mongooses to the area to get rid of the rabbit population oh interesting so that could be he could be like the last mongoose around since 1912 right um but so harry pritt harry price um he knew about this and also

i guess james had been writing him really constantly saying you need to check out my house my mongoose and so uh i guess harry price was doing he was clearly busy if you listen to my last episode he had a lot of stuff going on so he sent out one of his colleagues because also remember he created this like huge lab for himself with all these people who volunteered to help him so he sent out one of his colleagues named james dennis who in a lot of stories was james mcdonald but apparently that was like a fake name um so james dennis went on behalf of him and was convinced that jeff was real wow so he went to visit three different times and in 1935 this is a quote from dennis and his experience there he said quote the voice started in earnest and the noise in the house was amazing there were

shrill screams accompanied by terrific knocking loud bangs uh which eman voice in like all parts of the house and like that a person wouldn't be able to replicate. Wow. He also saw objects fly down from the top of the stairs while hearing disembodied laughter ew so eventually i guess he said enough things to harry price where he was like okay i'll go over myself and also this james guy keeps writing me so he went over but he brought another colleague named rex who was actually he was a big editor at the BBC originally. His name was Richard Lambert, but everyone called him Rex. And so I guess Rex went on a few different cases or followed Harry on a bunch of cases.

But this happened to be one of them. And when they got there, Jeff mysteriously never showed himself. So there was no sign of jeff being there so all harry could do um was take samples of things because apparently jeff had left some prints or some like of his fur do do mongooses have fur hair fur oh i don't know i'm gonna say fur um but so they he had left like little footprints on the walls or like or um hair samples and tooth marks because apparently he would bite onto the bacon fat because he liked bacon so much and so they had tooth marks and stuff like that so he took um clay impressions of all these prints right he sent them to experts because a lot of people obviously at this point in harry's life

were helping him from all realms so he had like zoologists helping him and things like that damn so he sent stuff to the natural history museum and naturalists came back saying that the dog was actually or the the hair was actually dog fur oh shit and they did at one point have a sheep dog named mona that they like never talk about but apparently it could have been sheep dog hair oh no and the prints and the tooth marks uh came back from the natural history museum uh the people there said that the prints could not match any known animal so in theory it could it's not any other animal that they're replicating it with wow but it's not a mongoose um so they said that the prince conceivably could have been from a dog

so it could also be mona um but so they said that no matter what the prince were definitely not mongoose it could have been dog it could have been something wild out there but it was not mongoose i don't know what i was expecting but i'm sad now well also the prints uh like the footprints apparently had uh they did not have the same texture or skin texture as a mongoose it looked like they were manually carved out with a stick oh bummer so that's not that this is the moment when people start assuming this was a hoax. I'm pretty sure since day one, people thought it was a hoax. But they thought that I guess Harry Price was the first person to say maybe it was Voirie who was up to this and the family was going along with it.

And they thought maybe she was doing it out of pure boredom of being so isolated. Yeah, it sounds like you would be. But that was my question, too, because I was like, if that were the case, who started it? And it's so weird if you drag your daughter into it. But I guess if she started it, it's less alarming. Like, it's more like a child pulling off some prank. I don't know. Yeah, I wonder if they were being really supportive of an imaginary friend and the news got out and they got out of hand with it yeah but even then it's like at some point as the parent like you kind of like not like you'd have your though you have your child scared to sleep in her room by herself because an imaginary friend right and like threatening

to like murder other people's livestock and stuff that's like extreme for for a child's uh imaginary friend i think right but so uh voyrey yes they assume that she's probably just lonely um and rex his assistant even quoted saying voyrey's very lonely um and has only her parents for company and they're much older there's no young people around we wanted to talk to voyvry ourselves but she is close and very reserved so i guess him and harry price had this thought of like let's get her away from the house so we can hopefully talk to her away from her parents right because at this point they were like to like is she the one that's causing this and her family's playing along or is her family doing something and she's forced to play along? That would suck.

That would be worse, I think. I don't know which one's worse. Well, so they suggested to take her on like a boat tour by herself. But then James invited himself along and monopolized the conversation. So she never got to talk. And basically, while Harry Price was there, he found that he knew that jeff started in the walls and so he was looking through the walls and he found that there was a lot of space between the foundation of the wood and so he thinks that this is a quote from him that the space quote made the

whole house one great speaking tube with walls like sounding boards and by speaking into one of the many apertures in the panels, it should be possible to convey the voice to various parts of the house. So basically it was this massive echoing space. Wow. And so he, if that's true, he knew it was someone in there and it was probably the smallest one.

She could climb in there. Yeah. Yeah. Still after all that um he i guess his reports from jeff this is just a fun fact but his reports from the investigation and james's personal diaries are part of that archive i told you about of his of like 13 000 oh yeah um still they ended up walking away with no evidence um and so like i mean they had evidence that it wasn't right among groups but they also never had any definitive supporting okay yeah so because he is so on the fence about everything he never validated any claims but he also never

accused anyone of a hoax but him and rex did write a book called the haunting of cashin's gap in 1936 and he claimed that he was um this was during his time if you remember in the last episode where he was like a huge self-publicist and was like doing all these wild things for the press to pay attention oh yeah like the setting the new york times on fire yes yeah so he apparently did uh this was one of those little cases where he was like i know people are going to think this is a hoax no matter what but at least it's interesting enough that people will get involved in paranormal research so um he didn't have a problem walking out of there caring whether

or not it was a hoax but rex actually almost got fired um from the bbc because since he was still skeptical after everything because he never had any definitive proof the higher-ups thought he was unstable and so he's he sued them for libel or for slander is are they the same thing no um slander is spoken and libel is written okay so for slander and the case ended up being uh being known as the mongoose case oh well that is pretty spot on i guess and he he won and kept his job but just a fun fact but so um real quick the other investigators that went out there there were several but just a few of their findings was there was one guy named um christopher joseph who actually i think he wasn't part of the original investigation but was looking through documents and things like that and he he actually used like articles and reports and sketches and

things from harry price harry price's library of magical literature and he actually met a man too who said that he remembered the irvings always having this is a quote always having a mongoose to catch and eat the cockroaches and at times when the mongoose was out voyrie would throw her voice as if the mongoose was talking as a fun game oh shit well that explains it pretty thoroughly so he's the only one who happened to find that information but if it's true then there's your answer explains it i just wonder about voyrie like does she really speak flemish or did did they she just make noises and was like that's flemish i feel like that's probably the case

like there's no way right like right yeah that's pretty extreme then she has like some other supernatural abilities herself, I think. Yeah, then she's probably possessed by a polyglot. So Joseph was actually... What's interesting about Joseph is he found out that there was a mongoose there, and she was throwing her voice a lot. But even though he was confident originally, he'd figure out if it was a hoax or something supernatural he ended up saying that the evidence was still really conflicting oh um

and then nandor fodor nandor fodor i always forget how to pronounce it but he's also like a big guy in paranormal research right i'll probably do a story on him one day but he was one of the people to also investigate jeff and he initially believed the family to a point where he was quoted saying all the evidence is in favor of jeff being an actual talking animal what really okay but he changed his mind later to obviously he changes his mind later to what i think is probably the most this is my personal belief um is his theory where he says that the family the family genuinely believed it and weren't trying to be deceitful like the wife and the child really believed it but james had some sort of split off psyche so not that i actually i wouldn't like you know

i'm no doctor but the theory is that the family as a unit had developed some mental health problems only are due a shared delusion bingo due to their follow boy album uh this is due to their extreme isolation um they say that james was mentally starving which feels a little too close to home given the quarantine yeah but um this is a quote there was no way to relieve his mental starving by conscious means so his unconscious took care of the job and uh it produced the strange hybrid of jeff fitting no category of humans animals or ghosts yet having common features with all of them wow so it was like his brain was so desperate to entertain disassociative it created this thing and his

his family kind of either went along with it or even almost believed it themselves um which is interesting because for a magical creature he really doesn't fit any of the like techonomy for like a ghost or a cryptid or anything like that. And so that usually would imply that it's something more psychological because it doesn't fit any of the categories we already know. Right, right, right. And this is especially because James later was also known to not keep a consistent story or description of Jeff. One of the earlier quotes was, I never said he was a mongoose.

I don't think he is an animal i think he's in he's a spirit in animal form and then there's other times where he literally said the quote undoubtedly he's a species of mongoose but whether a hybrid or not i can't say so even that was kind of messy um and then this is where it gets a little dark but this is one of the other theories is that they're so just like how jeff was super protective of voyrey um they they might think it was uh some sort of psychological issue with voyrey who was protecting herself through this persona of jeff because there were rumors of sexual assault.

I was very afraid you were going to say that. So it would explain why Jeff was so protective of her. Um, and that being said, that's like just one little quip of a theory. It's not like confirmed to be like a massive theory, but it was mentioned. Sure.

Um, also some think that she was honestly just so fucking bored. And so she did this she pulled this whole thing off just to scare her parents and to move include to the mainland oh wow i'm not a much nicer version of the theory i'd prefer to go with that one yeah and uh actually one of the reporters said that they actually caught her making noise and then james tried to redirect his face or his like head to somewhere else being like oh no you didn't hear her throw her voice oh wow so it sounds like the another theory is the whole family was in it for the sake of fame right because they're you know his business had crumbled and you

know they were struggling um the sweeping theory and this was something that harry price also agreed on uh or at least confirmed was one of his own theories is that voyrey was a um undercover ventriloquist she like had some really good skills that nobody knew about oh and so she basically even if she was in the room with you could throw her voice all around and if she was close enough to a wall it would echo whoa and either her parents believed it or perpetuated it for the sake of fame and there was one really good quote from someone who said this extra extra mongoose was an imaginary companion created by the irving's extra extra clever daughter and so um so anyway james

ended up dying in 1945 so margaret and boy re sold the farm to a motorcycle racer named Leslie Graham. Sure. And he, like two years into living there, actually trapped and killed an animal that matched Jeff's descriptions. He killed Jeff? The press made it look like he definitely killed Jeff. But he posted pictures of it and Voyery sold the pictures and maintained that that was not Jeff. And then ever since then the farmhouse has been destroyed and voy re-die in 2005 but even then she maintained that jeff was

real and her family was just victims of this weird mystical creature oh no oh my gosh anyway that's the story of what the f that is the i knew nothing about this case nothing i me either i've seen people like ask about it before and i was like i'm gonna have to keep that one in my back pocket so cool well that was the wildest story ever um i had no idea it was a reflection piece really considering considering gemini season's coming along this is like quite an introduction to gemini season i think i mean we'll be in it already when this comes out because um the 25th or the 26th is the cusp or is the beginning first is it first i thought oh maybe i thought it was like always the 21st oh oh it is one of my friends birthdays is on the 25th and so

i always assume that because she's on the cusp, she might have not made it. Oh, yeah. No, it's the 21st or May 21st to June 21st. So we are we are we are in it, folks. By the time this. We are in Jeff's season. I just I love I just love season. I love that story. And it's just so crazy. And I knew nothing about it. And I've heard about it, but I knew nothing about it. I like the season of Jeff. I appreciate that. A Jeff Manai. Okay. Yeah, maybe. Moving on. Your turn. Okay. I have a story for you that has been requested by a lot of people and is also something that i had first heard of back in boston when we did our show or maybe it was even before that um one of our good friends ryan who was in our wedding he was like he was he asked me he always asked me like a million questions about

the podcast and everything and um his wife's like marion's super scared of ghosts but every time i see her she's like can you tell me more about ghosts but then she gets like legitimately really afraid and i was like i can't hear it i can't hear it and i'm like okay um and so they he had told me about oh i'm unfrozen yay so he had told me about this story and i'd always meant to look into it and then recently um somebody like suggested it in the close friends group or whatever and i i decided to finally do it so this is the story of the smiley face killers okay i've heard you talk about it but i don't know anything about it so i got a little confused because there is a smiley face killer from like the 19 i don't know the early 20th century and this is a copycat no this is like

a completely different kate story um i feel like once you get the actual once there's like a deemed killer with that name i feel like it's really hard to earn that name yeah i it's kind of vague and obscure so i don't really know this is definitely like the main story the smiley face killers um but that one i think i got it confused with that one and that's why i anyway it doesn't matter but so this is the story of the smiley face killers um and i'm gonna tell you up front what the theory is and then i'm gonna go through the timeline and explain why this theory kind of exists so it's pretty creepy um so the smiley face murder theory uh sometimes called the smiley face murders the smiley face killings the smiley face gang uh i know a lot of names um is a theory advanced by retired new

york city detectives kevin gannon and anthony duarte as well as a criminal justice professor named dr lee gilbertson who's also a gang expert at St. Cloud State University, which alleges that a number of young men found dead in bodies of water across several Midwestern American states from the late 90s to the 2010s did not accidentally drown, as concluded by law enforcement agencies, but were victims of a serial killer who left behind the calling card of a graffitied smiley face at the dump site of each body oh that was like the longest sentence in the history of uh the isle of man but i uh but does that make sense i like no that makes that out okay no that was great good job good job writing thank you i parsed it all from wikipedia

and turned into one giant sentence um but i also want to preface this whole story by saying most law enforcement investigators are either range from skeptical of the whole theory if not outright dismissive of it and being like this is just baloney oh okay so you'll see why people disagree about this um and i actually listened to two different podcasts, martinis and murder and thinking sideways. And they both had extremely different outlooks on it, which was really interesting. Like in thinking sideways, they went into it saying like,

this is all bunk science and like it's phony. And then in the martinis and murder episode, they were like, wow, this is like we, they interviewed these actual guys and like believed it so it's i don't know you can make your own conclusion i suppose um so the timeline starts in 1997 in new york city uh when 21 year old fordham university student patrick mcneil disappeared

after a night out at the dapper dog bar dapper dog That sounds like a great bar. It does sound cute. I don't know anything about it, but it sounds cute. His body was not found until 47 days later and it was found floating in the East River. And at first, the death was determined

to be an accidental drowning. But an NYPD missing persons detective named Kevin Gannon promised the Mcneil family patrick's family that he would find out what happened because neither he nor the family believed that this was an accidental death they think it was a homicide and interestingly enough this actually would later prove correct and it was uh determined that he was murdered and the case is still unsolved and open so this is like still and this is from 97 um in the autopsy report so i'm just gonna like

say a couple things that they found the autopsy report that kind of started this whole theory as to like the spate of murders and some of it's kind of disturbing, but oh, well, that's our show. So in the autopsy report, the medical examiner first referenced a ligature mark around Patrick's neck, which led them to believe that he had been bound in some way and potentially tortured is what they believed. They also found this is where it gets kind of gross. Fly eggs in his pubic hair yep i told you oh my god okay that's awful gnarly gnarly um so we're not moving on i'm gonna keep talking about it um so they found please fly eggs and i have to explain why that's indicative of kind of something off about an accidental drowning. So there were multiple fly eggs in the pubic hairs of Patrick's groin area, and they were in an arrested state of development.

And Gannon and his team concluded that Patrick had to have been dead on land for a period of time in order for the flies to lay their eggs before he was put into the water. Because flies do not lay eggs in temperatures under 52, especially in water. So then they were like, well, this must be, this is, this is also according to their website, this list. So I will preface with that information, but it does make, um, it does make it a homicide in their eyes. And it, uh, brings into the question, like first the later mark then the why was like

his groin area out of water for that long that flies could have laid eggs there if he wasn't found for 47 days like what was happening in between that time right and according to the medical examiner's report there was also severe blackening of his head and upper torso, which they believed was advanced exposure to the elements outside of water, perhaps burning even, but a lot of investigators adamantly disagree about that and say it's just natural from body decomp. Yeah, exactly.

So given all this proponents of the smiley face theory, believe Patrick's death was not an accidental drowning. They believe he was he was stalked abducted held for an extended period of time and tortured murdered and then disposed in the water and after his torture and burning they believe he remained on land for a short period of time in order for the house flies to lay eggs in his groin area that's the last time i'll say that phrase i promise um during this time decomp had started and became visible on his legs they believe that he was then transported to owl's head where he was placed into the east river and was later discovered oh there's something else really gross that i'm about to say i had a hunch when you said i'm done talking about the groin flies

i was like something worse is coming here it is it's grosser to me um so there was an absence an absent what am i saying an absence no and at like uh it was absent so absence i don't know why suddenly that word means nothing to me um there was an absence of skin slippage on his feet which is a thing that happens uh like in water your skin will like slide it's so gross it will what mine doesn't do that no when you're dead i sure hope not i was like am i the weird one here no you're like there's like skin slippage if your body is found in the water like your skin will be kind of detached i believe from your body and so there was a lack of that apparently on his feet and legs in the water for very long that's what they

yes that's what they propose exactly so skin slippage i'm i'm pretty sure is the last super gross word i'm gonna say um yeah this one's just, I don't know. Yuck. So that was in 97. Then between 97 and 98, three more young men went missing in Manhattan and they were eventually recovered all in the East and Hudson Rivers and they were all dead. And Gannon and his partner, Anthony Duarte, at this point believe they're seeing a pattern in these deaths. Anthony Duarte at this point believe they're seeing a pattern in these deaths. And in 2001, Gannon retired from the NYPD and he and Duarte began to investigate this in a more like head on serious fashion and try to like figure out an actual theory on this.

So in 2003, they identified at least a dozen cases of accidental drownings that they believed're all connected and they kind of determined this because near the dumping of each body, they were able to find a smiley face graffiti nearby the body. And so it's at that point that they're thinking this person, this killer is leaving a calling card for us and or killers plural. And it's it's a smiley face graffiti and that's kind of how they began this uh smiley face theory so in 2006 gannon and duarte were joined by that guy said was a gang expert uh dr lee gilbertson and he based on his own personal investigation also believed the smiley face theory so his interest came from the disappearance of 21 year old minnesota university student chris jenkins and he uh was last seen it was like halloween 2002 and he was at a bar uh and he was wearing like which is definitely not appropriate

like an american indian costume um and that it's part of the story but i know not appropriate but he was wearing that costume at a halloween party at a bar he got really wasted he was kicked out of the bar and his friends apparently didn't even notice he was gone and unfortunately he was kicked out he was in his costume but he had left his coat and his phone and his wallet inside. So he had not, um, he didn't have an, and it was like 20 degrees out and it, so he had nothing with him. Um, so that it was just a bad start to the night. Um, and he vanished that night and, uh, he was recovered. His body was recovered in the Mississippi river four months later, I believe it was like 12 miles. I forget how many miles, but I believe it was like 12 miles away. And his body was found in the Mississippi River and his

cause of death was originally concluded to be an accidental drowning. And he was actually found still in his costume. And so an inmate at a jail i guess an inmate informant told police that this was actually a homicide and he had information about it and so his death was actually reclassified as a homicide in 2006 so this is like the second confirmed homicide in their kind of thread of deaths um the other ones are still ruled accidental drownings this is a second like actual murder um and his this is still an open case as well so we don't really have much information on it but as far as i heard on um thinking sideways they were saying it they believe it may have been a gang initiation that he was killed oh okay and perhaps just

abducted off the street and murdered and dumped in the water as part of a gang initiation something on that along those lines but it is classified as a homicide and is still an open case and so in then that was in 06 so in 2008 gannon duarte and gilbertson held a press conference and this is where they kind of announced the smiley face killer theory to the world and there was an investigative reporter named Christy Peel, and she helped break and popularize this story. The story, as she publicized it, goes as follows. Forty accidental drowning deaths of college-aged men were, in fact, murdered by a serial killer. Excuse me.

The murders began in the mid to late 90s and span 11 states lacrosse wisconsin is home to at least eight of the smiley face killer or killers victims but massachusetts new york minnesota and pennsylvania also have more than a few potential victims wow the victims all fit a similar profile so this is a big part of like that. The thread of this whole theory is that the victims are all really similar. They're all Caucasian young men who were described as popular, smart and sporty. And they had everything going for them. A lot of them were extremely athletic, were like very, you know, strapping young men, essentially, were like very you know strapping young men essentially and were all young white males and they were also all seen last leaving a bar or a party alone after drinking and are were possibly

drugged without their knowledge got it okay and they also believe the victims may have been tortured and held for some time and when asked like well why would somebody be doing this what's the motive of a serial killer who's killing all these men? And the trio said they believe the motive was envy and that the perpetrator was the opposite of the victims, meaning he was clumsy, ugly and dumb. And that's the direct quote. So that's from the experts were mouth. So yeah, so they thought maybe basically they were insinuating that this person was so clumsy, ugly and dumb that they were jealous of these like perfectly strapping popular young men and killed them out of envy. So that's their kind of motive that they presented. and this got to the point that the fbi actually released a statement on the smiley face killers which they called the fbi called the midwest river deaths on the same day as the press conference and this is uh kind of long but this is what the fbi had to say okay excuse me over the past several years law enforcement and the fbi have received information about young college-aged men who were

found deceased in rivers in the midwest the fbi has reviewed the information about young college-aged men who were found deceased in rivers in the Midwest. The FBI has reviewed the information about the victims provided by two retired police detectives who have dubbed these incidents the Smiley Face Murders and interviewed an individual who provided information to the detectives. To date, we have not developed any evidence to support links between these tragic deaths or any evidence substantiating the theory that these deaths are the work of a serial killer or killers. The vast majority of these instances appear to be alcohol related drownings. The FBI will continue to work with local police in the affected areas to provide support as requested.

Essentially the FBI is saying, no, these are just drunk kids drowning. They were just saying bullshit. Yes. And they're saying exactly. And they're saying it's not a serial killer as far as we believe. And like, it's just drunk that there's like a string of 40 people all with similar looks and reputations across 11 states or whatever all being killed in pretty much the same way with

a calling card it sounds legitimate it sounds it sounds like really sketchy that this would all be happening i will say there are definitely a lot of red flags to me about the theory. I mean, I'll get into those. But like, for example, a lot of them happen like the same day or the same week. And you think like not a lot. I believe only one of them happened like on the same day. And you think like, well, then that would mean there's like a whole operation of these people. Right. Then there have to be multiple people.

Yeah. In on this. And they said that's possible as part of their theory, but also, you know, that would be multiple decades of this going on without anybody slipping or saying a word. Yeah, the only way I can, I guess the only way that I, I still think it's possible, but the only way I think it's possible is if it is like a gang initiation or like people have like a reason for multiple people. Organizational type thing. Yeah. or like people of like a reason for multiple people organizational type thing yeah yeah um and you know the obviously the smiley face makes it just that much creepier that um they happen to be finding these smiley faces nearby where the bodies are dumped at the same time so some of

them are really creepy like there was this man found and uh dead and like underneath the bar where he was found on the wood. There was like a smiley face graffiti. That got me. So going into this before we go further, do you have you already made your decision like of what you think happened? Yeah, I'm I'm a little on the I could see both ways, but both ways, but I'm persuaded in one particular direction. Okay, got it. And I'll say my like ultimate thoughts on it at the end, but I do find it, I mean, it is fascinating and creepy. I will say like some of the smiley faces that were found were farther away from the bodies, like they had to be kind of discovered.

It was a leap. Yeah, a leap, exactly. That's like the perfect perfect word some of it seems a little bit like a stretch um and like you know it's creepy that there were smiley face graffitis but i would imagine i don't know much about graffiti i imagine a smiley face is probably a pretty common one if you're testing out a spray can't right spray can or spray paint can i don't know that but you know i don't think it's like the most specific i it's fair it's a fair argument that like pretty much anywhere you go i'm sure there's a smiley face so that was my thought yeah so if there's a death i okay well now i understand you know i'm like confirmation bias like you're like oh a smiley face but it's like there's probably a

lot of those out there that you don't notice on a regular basis like if someone died on in on my apartment floor right now like maybe right next to the 10 smiley faces i drew on a piece of paper today you know yeah and that would definitely not be a murder that would be an accidental drowning for sure in your house so a question then have you uh by the end of this will you tell us your your verdict on jeff because you also jeff you also didn't give an answer on that one and they are both potentially just urban legends that's a good point they actually that's a good point because this is considered by some people an urban legend by some they consider it like a real crime theory some people think it's an urban legend so yes i will give our full reports of both

stories at the good idea good idea okay so at this point, Gannon, Duarte, Gilbertson, and now Peel, this Christy Peel, who's the investigative reporter, they continue to investigate accidental drowning deaths, and they start enlisting the families of the victims. appearances including interviews on fox news with geraldo rivera and they now believe a gang of killers are responsible and are working in cooperation with each other because there are so many deaths that span so much space that right have to be multiple people so the quartet believes the smiley face is just one of the symbols that the gang of killers use others include the word since the neat since the niwa which is an indigenous word meaning rattlesnake. And they found that word near a body. And then I believe one of the next bodies that was found was found in the Cincinnati River or in a port or something with that name. or in a port or something with that name. And that's just something I heard on, which one was it?

Oh, martinis and murder. I'm now I'm getting them mixed up. So that's, that's at least what I heard on their show is that that bought the next body was found with in, in a similar place with that name. Gotcha. So in late 2010,

the nonprofit center for homicide research studies uh oh nope that's wrong they studied 40 of gannon and duarte's proposed victim cases so they took 40 of these to assess them and see if they could find a pattern and the chrs are called released a report that was critical of this theory of the smiley face killer theory and they called it drowning the smiley face murder theory which i guess someone was trying to be clever and perhaps maybe was a little insensitive i think but because they drowned either whether it was a murder or not but okay right plan yeah i hear you drowning Drowning the Smiley Face Murder Theory. And this report lays out 18 points of contention with supporting evidence against the Smiley Face Theory. So I'm going to read some of these points. So, for example, the graffiti, the time of the graffiti, some of it was found months later, months after the bodies were found, which would negate a connection between finding the body and finding the smiley face.

bodies were found which would negate a connection between finding the body and finding the smiley face like someone would go four months later and say oh well here's a smiley face but the body had been already taken four months before so it's hard to say there's no way to really timeline them out appropriately that yes they both existed at the same time exactly so it could just be a coincidence or maybe it wasn't even there um then again, I don't know. Maybe they can argue someone came back to the site of the body dumping and put it there. So that's, I guess, fair. And again, graffiti is omnipresent. It's everywhere. Smiley face graffiti has apparently existed for at least 4,000 years.

That's how old drawing smiley faces. Is that how old a fucking smiley face is? I guess so, right? Why did I think it just came out in like maybe the 50s yeah like i don't know it's really hard for me to process that anything happened before the 50s and i don't know why yes we know that m i know but like when i think to me like you think about cave drawings like an eye an eye and a mouth you know that's true i guess could be a thing i don't know i mean i guess you're right.

You're the one that researches. I just it blows my mind that like also we all know that 4000 years doesn't seem like it could have existed. So anyway, flat earther. It doesn't matter. No, I'm not a flat earther. That's not a good gossip to spread. I'm definitely someone who I'm not a flat earther, but I definitely find it hard to

believe that 50 years ago, anyone was here. It blows my mind. Nobody existed before we were born is what I'm not a flat earther, but I definitely find it hard to believe that 50 years ago anyone was here. It blows my mind. Nobody existed before we were born is what I'm thinking. No, but like my grandparents were the earliest people on earth. I see. For sure. Because you can see them with your own two eyes. That's the truth.

I don't know what's wrong with my brain. I just can't visualize anything outside of that. Oh, my. Oh, my. So anyway, apparently, smiley faces have existed for at least 4000 years and are so popular because they're so simple. And like I said, you know, if you're you have a spray can, and like, what else are you gonna do? Draw a smiley face? Like, even like just to test it like a same. Exactly, exactly. And I will also say, the smiley faces were different. So some of them had round eyes some of them didn't and so they like look different and that's when they say well you know this could be a gang of killers

but to me it also kind of points out like these are still very different symbols you know that's definitely an argument towards it not yeah because i mean i mean if you're just going off of any goddamn smiley face that you see, then you might as well go off of any thing that's blue or like, exactly. Who's to say? Yeah, it feels like you're like looking for connections or a pattern. So none of those smiley faces remotely matched each other. And then the word Cincinnati was considered a red herring. It's a relatively common term in the Midwest. It's in the names of schools, towns, businesses, roads, bridges, and a river.

And so it's not that odd that it would have found its way into graffiti. And like I said, that one body was found in the Sinsaniwa River, which was a strange connection. strange connection but at the same time like the fact that the word was found in a totally different place um in the midwest where this is a relatively common term it's not that strange in virginia like i see tags all the time of rva which is richmond right and so like if someone died in richmond next to a wall that's covered in rva yeah it wouldn't be that wild yes every exactly so exactly so that's another one where it's like i guess they and now it seems like you know you're just adding more symbols like there wasn't a smiley face but there was the word sensaniwa so it's a little bit like well which

one is it um and then proximity so there was no established distance between where the bodies were found or entered into the water and the location of the smiley faces. So like I said, some were like really far away and they just kind of happened to explore around and find it like down the river. So it's not like wherever they were found, it was next to the body. A lot of times they were pretty distant. And then evidence of victim trauma. So the vast majority of victims had little or no bodily trauma. And they said, you know, all of these people were murdered and potentially tortured. And this basically the evidence of the bodies, most of them don't show any evidence except for those two homicides. Don't really show any evidence that these bodies were tortured or held for a long time or anything of that nature. or anything of that nature and then there's homicidal drownings which are extremely rare so apparently drowning someone um to murder them is only accounts for 0.2 percent of all u.s homicides really yeah but i think that's because like it's so much easier to like shoot someone or right strangle or stab them than it is to like hold them underwater right in a body of water

where you're not going to be seen you know what i mean that's and that's specifically homicidal drownings not homicidal not accidental exactly which is why it's got to be really hard to hold a whole human being down i think so especially one of these like quote-unquote strapping young men you know like these athletic guys um so that's another point is that they were saying you know it's much more statistically statistically likely that they drowned accidentally. In 21 years studied, only 117 homicidal drownings occurred among people in the college age range 18 to 24. And the idea that water washes away evidence is actually a myth. So when currently, which I didn't know at all, I really thought that water would get rid of a lot of.

I guess that makes sense. If you like wash your hands from having like blood all over them, like you could still see it under the UV light after you wash your hands. That's true. Yeah, exactly. And like from what I heard, too, is that you can still test the body alcohol content of a body, even if it's been in the water, because as long as the blood is still there, it'll still tell you the amount of alcohol. And a lot of that's how they were able to kind of figure out that these people were all drunk when they when they had drowned. And so that's another kind of or when they had died, at least. And so that's another kind of like alarming fact that I wouldn't have thought you could get after a body was in the water for that long.

Right. There's skin slippage. I'm sorry. I said I wouldn't say that again. But it's interesting, though. I really hadn't thought about like how like being in a body of water and not washing away your prints. But I guess if your fingerprints are from your oils and like water doesn't like oil. Right. Oh, that's true, too. Yeah. I don't know. I'm just I'm having kind of like a mind blown experience here. But thank you for that fun fact. You're so welcome. And I don't know. I don't know how it pert blown experience here. But thank you for that fun fact. You're so welcome. And I don't know. I don't know how it pertains to fingerprints.

But I do. I did learn that like your body, if it's submerged in water, doesn't get rid of, for example, like ligature marks or the drugs in your system. Like those will still show up in a tox report and that kind of thing, which you'd think like water would, I don't know, degrade that, I guess. But apparently it does not. Well, now that we're friends with morbid we should ask elena she would probably know that's true i'm sure she would know um so that is a myth and so a waterlogged corpse can provide a variety of forensic evidence um another point is that the killings do not fit any known serial killer motive psychologically speaking so even though they said like oh we believe it's envy um psychologists looked at this and said like we don't really we can't match this to any known you know uh psychological motive like they just said it

didn't fit like that didn't seem likely and then um you, the confessions by the correctional inmate who said this was a murder, a lot of times that can't be, they've proven unreliable. Let's just put it that way. Sometimes they're coerced, sometimes they're boastful, sometimes they're just trying to get out of or trying to get, you know, some credit by pointing to someone in the outside and saying like, oh, this was a, I know who did it, or I have information about this if you'll give me something, you know. So, a lot of times confessions aren't necessarily reliable. Right. And then another point is that the environment and the general areas of the disappearance were conducive to accidental drowning. So, the areas in question where the bodies were found or where

they entered the water were near bars and campuses they were all downhill and they all lacked barriers okay and so one thing i heard too about uh you know well why would they have how would they have accidentally drowned well one point i heard which was interesting is like maybe a dude had to pee and he walked toward the river and you know something like that yeah that's actually a good point or like maybe just stumbling and like if there's no barriers it's quick to hold down just fall yeah just yeah and like I mean I could imagine like rolling all the way down hitting your head and then your head's yes that's a good point you know that's a good point yeah exactly and like falling unconscious maybe you're blackout maybe you're

and a lot of these people were extremely intoxicated um so you know that goes to the same point of like maybe they weren't in control of their faculties and they fell or who knows but they all the areas were yeah lacking barriers downhill and near the bars and campuses where they were getting drunk and um so even if it was like let's say it was a homicide for all you know like there was just someone on the street that like i don't know like maybe there was one homicidal thing but it didn't happen to be the smiley face gang or anything it was like there was one time where someone actually did kill this person but it's totally like now a different storyline and those two those two that were ruled homicides like that's what the people who doubt

this theory believe like well those two were homicides sure but they had no connection to got it all the other deaths like maybe the one was a gang-related murder maybe the other one was like a friend or you know someone who got into a fight with him and killed him or maybe someone like robbed them and like hit a him or maybe someone like robbed them and like hit him in the head or something. Yeah. Like, yeah, it's like a freak accident type thing. Yeah. So that's, that's true too. And the fact that, so another point they made was that the fact that they're all males who are being killed does not necessarily support a serial killer theory. Apparently males are simply more likely to drown or be hospitalized from near drowning than females, statistically speaking.

And also more likely, aren't they to like be like wildly drunk compared to women? when when when drunk i presume because you know i mean this is obviously anecdotal but you think like it's probably more likely that a dude would wander home by himself than like a group of young women or something saying yeah you go home by yourself like much much more rare of an instance as a woman after going to a bar walking themselves like with friends right exactly that and also don't i think it's something like men metabolize alcohol differently where they can drink a lot more and so like it would make sense why they might actually be more intoxicated or something like that so they might make it might only exacerbate their risky behavior yeah exactly and they were all really young they were all like college age um and really popular and out with their friends. And one of them was on Halloween.

Like, I mean, it kind of is conducive to like binge drinking. And so the one, so La Crosse, Wisconsin, where several of these were supposedly taking place. I think they said like eight of the victims they believed were from La Crosse or happened in La Crosse, Wisconsin. believed were from lacrosse or happened in lacrosse wisconsin so apparently in that town foot patrols and police have stopped over 50 intoxicated persons from approaching the river late at night so like aside from people drowning they've stopped at least 50 people from wandering toward the river at night drunkenly so the fact that you know eight of them over 25 years or whatever right died in the river it's not that unreasonable if you're thinking this many people are just wandering drunkenly toward the river. Right. Okay. I see that. And one more

point is the process by which intoxicated men accidentally fall in the river is already known and well-documented and it happens pretty often and doesn't always end in death. Most of these incidents are preceded by risky behavior and many of the drowning cases are likely to have involved aspects of auto-assassination, which is not suicide, but is a style, apparently, of living with reckless disregard for one's own life. So you're not intentionally going out to end your own life, but you are living, you know, or behaving in such a way that like like a like the adrenaline junkies out there yes that's probably not the right phrasing anymore but like people who are like you know really get off on like that intense dream danger exactly and when you're drunk you know that might seem you lose your inhibition that might seem more likely more of a reasonable thing to do you might feel more invincible than normal.

Exactly. Like jump into a frozen river or, you know, who knows what it may be dive off a dock, whatever, but. Or maybe like people just want to get high by the river and then they just like fall over, you know, like. That's me falling into a river. Like, oh, I just. I mean, I'm just thinking about like, like my hometown. Like, I don't know a person who didn't get high by the quarry at one point, especially if you're like out drinking with your buddies you know right and like you know people try to show off and that kind of thing is documented and a lot of young men do fall into

bodies of water when they're drunk it's a statistic you know and as sad as that is uh and not all of them die but you know it doesn't shock me that some of them would, especially when it's freezing out. If you're of male experience and also drinking, just avoid water. Please be careful. Unless you're drinking it to stop being drunk. If you're anyone near body of water, just be careful, please. Right. So I will also add that malicious drugging of the victims is not supported by the evidence. So even in some of the bodies, they did find GHB, which is known as a date rape drug. And they did find that present

in the bloodstream. But apparently, that also appears when the body decomposes as part of your natural decomp. So it's not necessarily supported that this was intentional drugging. Got it. And I will, this is the last point point the drowning of college students is not limited by region but by climate so desert states shockingly do not report as many drowning deaths for obvious reasons sure as other states and countries with similar like midwest and northeast clients clients jesus climates where there are bodies of water where you know it's freezing cold out that kind of thing um the investigators dismissed so the investigators back to them who like you know are proponents of this

theory they dismissed the entire report and they continued on their search for the smiley face killer believing that they would find more evidence to support their theory and so um in by 2014 peel who was the she's the investigative reporter as well as some of the as well as some of the parents of the victims started to kind of move away from Gannon, Duarte and Gilbertson. They were like distancing themselves. Gotcha. And according to interviews in 2015 with Peel and and parents, some of the parents of the victims by a critic named Ruben Rosario. He was a critic of the smiley face theory. They told the interviewer that Gannon was an opportunity opportunist who at

least on one occasion tried to charge producers for T TV interviews with the parents of the victims. And they had no idea they were being exploited for monetary gain. And so he was trying to like make money apparently allegedly off of these interviews um and so that was another thing that's like that's iffy right not a good sign not a good look not a good look exactly in 2015 uh peel she no longer subscribed to this theory at all however she does believe that some of the accidental drownings were erroneously classified as accidental. And she started helping parents lobby police to reclassify the cases for investigation and try to look at the cases again and say, I really don't think my son drowned by accident. I believe this was a homicide.

So she was helping. Although she didn't believe in a smiley face theory anymore, she was starting to help parents kind of talk to police and reopen some of these cases and then last year in 2019 oxygen produced a six-part series called smiley face killers the hunt for justice and this highlighted six of the cases that gannon duarte and gilbertson believed were associated with the smiley face killer gang and at the conclusion of the series one of the six cases had actually been reclassified as a homicide and is now under investigation so who knows there's another one that's that's now considered a murder as well yeah right there's hope right uh in the worst way possible yeah um so the current theory i'm just gonna tell you what they now believe um gannon duarte and gilbertson

all believe that across the midwest and, predominantly in college towns, cells of connected serial killers abduct college-aged young men, hold them for a period of time, and then murder them. The first victim was discovered in 97, and potential victims have been discovered as recently as 2019, so they believe this is ongoing. They believe the victims are usually leaving a bar or a party alone, are more inebriated than normal, and perhaps have been drugged with GHB. They believe the victims are held captive and even tortured for a while, perhaps driven around in a van, then killed and dumped in a body of water. And they are always found washed up on shores of rivers, creeks, ponds, and lakes. and they are discovered deceased after a period of missing that doesn't support the lack of decomp so one of their one of their things they point to is

that a lot of times when the bodies are found they're like this is not the the decomp of someone who's been in the water for two months or whatever it may be or a month they say like this body clearly wasn't dead for two months this person died like a week ago um so that's kind of one of those iffy things that people disagree on but that they point to is like the decomp does not add up timeline wise as to when these people were missing so that's kind of interesting too where i'm like that is kind of weird that, a body would not show a month of decomp. Right. I don't know.

I can't figure that one out. Also, they believe the killer seemed to strike almost exclusively in winter months, and they often leave a smiley face graffiti near where the bodies have entered the water. They also believe that some of the symbols are also associated with the smiley face killer. some of the symbols are also associated with the smiley face killer and police and investigators they think overlook clues and medical examiners erroneously label cause of death as accidental drowning when it's actually a homicide and they believe there are potentially 335 victims of this sophisticated network of serial killers wow so that's what they stand by right now as it stands Wow. but this is kind of where I stand after reading all this. So the smiley face murder theory leaves a lot of questions unanswered. It contains a lot of inconsistencies. And it is true that the investigations of Gannon Duarte and Gilbertson did

lead to reassessment. A lot of these cases that ended up actually being homicides. So they did do a lot of good in that way. And that sure they weren't all accidental. Like they said, it is unlikely to me that a like sinister operation of murder gang is going on for decades and uh we just can't solve it or find the people involved right um but it is likely that due to human error or other

nuances that some of these deaths were not properly investigated by police or medical examiners um whether that's inadvertent or not uh you know some of these have been flipped after a lot of pressure to become homicides so i think you know maybe some of these cases weren't closely looked at um some of the 335 deaths could have also been the result of suicide or murder um though they in my opinion would probably be more likely like what you said like a one-off or maybe a personal uh relationship with a killer rather than like a sinister gang or just a freak accident type thing um more than a few victims were in bar fights the night of their disappearances so that's another another little tidbit and at least one victim told his uncle in the days prior to his disappearance that he wanted

to go to florida to get away and start his life over so even that is a little bit iffy and interesting points to something other than you know a big murder gang yeah however statistically the vast majority were probably young men who had too much to drink, stumbled into the water, like apparently men tend to do, between parties and or bars or on their way home. And according to psychologists, the smiley face killer theory is kind of an answer, like a like a boogeyman or like something to blame for families and loved ones who just can't like don't this sounds awful and I don't mean it this way at all but because I understand

it but like they don't want to believe that their son or their friend got so drunk that they wandered into the water you know they want an explanation or they're trying to find some reasoning behind it and so that I completely understand. And, you know, knowing now that like, Gannon was, you know, paying, or was getting money to put the parents. Yeah, it's a little fishy to me. I mean, excuse the word, but I almost said it earlier, and I kept saying iffy instead. And then I was like, shit, I slipped up. So yeah, you know, I and I think that makes a lot slipped up um so yeah you know i and i think that makes a lot of sense that like you know parents don't want to believe that their their child drowned

or their friend or their brother or lover uh drowned by accident that's just such a they might want someone else to blame it on or yeah like an explanation um or some right boogie man is what they called it um and so people close to a victim also naturally are shown to have a really hard time accepting suicide as an answer you know a lot of times you hear like they'd never do that um especially when they feel that pressure of like i didn't notice i didn't see any signs and that kind of thing it's like the the the survivor's guilt and the relationship guilt yeah exactly and so that was another thing they psychologists have pointed to is like maybe that's you know

they're trying to find a reason for um a suicide they don't want to believe happened or or they can't believe happened um like if it if it were homicide then they at least have a chance of closure but yes exactly like exactly rather than just looking at a freak accident or at themselves for not seeing signs or whatever it may be yeah right um so a definitive killer like would alleviate that guilt that survivor's guilt um would would put something tangible to blame um for a death which is totally understandable um so that's kind of where i stand but i I mean, who knows? Like crazier things have happened.

Like maybe this is one of those Criminal Minds episodes where there's one detective being like, no, I know this is a pattern or SVU. And they're like, no, it's not. And then it turns out to be, maybe it is like that. And maybe we'll find more information. But as of today, Gannon, Duarte, and Gilbertson are still investigating the Smiley Face killer theory. And the theory itself kind of straddles that line between urban legend and reality so

we don't totally know but i mean i kind of lean toward urban legend but it is interesting um to discuss either way so that's the story morning glory what's the word hummingbird i uh no i think you convinced me i'm kind of on on your side of it but it's weird because there are so many factors to it i guess it's really hard it's really hard to make my own um opinion though when like the police department can't even really figure it out like yeah and like i really hesitate as a podcaster to be like this is what i believe because again like right i've only read about it i literally was like making my own opinions earlier i guess it's not so much about murder but like a supernatural story but like yeah i mean yeah nobody take our opinions as fact just like a fun little suggestion. Just our own theory.

That's all. Yeah. It's like fun to discuss, but yeah, that's where I stand. I mean, I'm, I kind of with the,

I think the second you said dog fur, I was like, oh yeah. Yeah. The second I said talking mongoose, I was kind of, okay. All right.

You're right. Yeah. I mean, I was on the ride for a little longer than I probably should have been well they reeled me back in with all those Gemini qualities and I was like you're right I love I love bacon and gossip and leaving after I'm done talking like and like telling people to vanish out of my face when I'm done with them maybe we should just start signing off our podcast with vanish because that's when we're done talking. Okay. I was going to say,

well, I was going to yell vanish at the end of the episode, but I guess you just spoiled my surprise. We'll do it this time. We'll do. And that's why we vanish. Oh, okay.

That'll work. Okay. So thank you so much. If you guys want to follow us at all, our social medias are all at WWE podcast. We also have Patreon, our website, and that's why we drink.com.

And our live show. And our live show live show please if there are still tickets available we don't know right now how many people are we're trying to make it as many people as possible like without having to do anything too crazy but um hopefully you can make it and that's it for us right right? And that's why we vanish. Okay. What was I going to do? Oh, right. Order one.