And That's Why We Drink - E182 Meghan's Ghost Writer and a Glitter Tik Tok Box

Episode Date: August 2, 2020

Thanks for the snaps, sorry for the insult! This week we're talking Quarantine malaise and how books and teatime are helping. Em also takes us to Ireland for the wild hauntings of the Leap Castle, which includes a murder hole and the terrifyingly named spirit, "Elemental". Then Christine covers the incredibly sad and mysterious cold case of the disappearance of Kyron Horman. Em also shares their million dollar science fair invention... and that's why we drink!Please consider supporting the companies that support us!Go to www.FelixGrayGlasses.com/DRINK for free shipping on the best quality blue light filtering glasses on the market.Go to www.HelloFresh.com/80drink and use code 80drink to get a total of $80 off your first box!Go to www.HelloTushy.com/DRINK to get 10% off your order!

Well, we have some good news and some bad news. We have some very good news and we have some very bad news. It's okay. We'll all do this together. Well, it'll be a one big group hug. Let's start. Yeah, let's start with the bad news. The bad news is, unfortunately, our 2020 shows that we had rescheduled are going to be postponed

once again. Re-rescheduled. Re-re-rescheduled. And again, this is not something we had uh saying unfortunately yeah but um you know the pandemic pandemic uh everyone else is doing it it wouldn't really be wise for us to bring people out and you know have everyone gather before it's too uh before it's perfectly healthy to do so and safe safe. So we have to postpone. We do not have technical dates yet.

So as soon as we have those, we will let you know. And the shows are being rescheduled, so not canceled. So do not fret. We will see you eventually. We are still going to do this tour. We have talked it up way too much. We are so excited. It is going to happen.

Please love us still in 2021 and come to our shows. We do have some good news. Because of the cancellations or the postponement, if you will, we have decided to host another virtual live show. We had so much fun the first time. Yes. And this time we're kind of switching things up a bit to like spice it up, if you will. Yes, we're going to be doing a listener's edition. So instead of us telling a story, we're going to basically be doing a listeners episode, but live.

And instead of just using the batch of listeners stories that we currently have, we want people to submit the scariest stories that they've ever experienced, either them or their friends or someone they know. And we have a special email address for you to send those to. That way they're on one nice spot so we can find them. The address is ATWWDfromOurCouches at gmail.com because we're going to be doing the live show from our couches. Once again. And so we are going to do this again. We'll give you the ticket link as soon as we have that as well.

The date is August 22nd. Yes. And it's 5 Pacific Standard Time, 8 Eastern Standard Time. Yes. And I believe that's a Saturday this time. and it's a ten dollar ticket admission yes um and that is gonna be uh the proceeds are gonna go to the marsha p uh johnson institute for black trans uh for black trans support so yes and we're very excited about it and we're excited for you guys to send in your scariest possible stories to make this a spooky a spooky an episode as possible yeah we're gonna be reading the top 10 scariest stories that

come our way so if you would like us to read your story during this live show uh please send it to at wwd from our couches at gmail.com see you there See you there. Hello. Welcome to And That's Why We Drink. Hello, fresh. Welcome. Your local, your friendly neighborhood paranormal true crime podcast.

Your friendly and fully anxious paranormal show. We just tried to figure out what the word rumble means. And I feel like this is one of those things we're allowed to ask the audience, like call a friend or phone a friend. It's one of those things where I'm willing to hate myself later when we get a million tweets about it. Right. Because it's just a simple Google search of what the definition is.

And I just choose not to do it. I mean, to be fair, we are sitting here recording. So it is a little more difficult for us to Google right now. But I just want to know what everybody else thinks it means. Because we said ready to rumble. And I was like, ready to do what exactly? And it's like, are we? Christine thinks rumbling is hanging i said it on your knee

i thought that because that's the sound you make when you are ready to rumble but you're right that wouldn't be actually rumbling but you're right maybe i mean okay i think i know i'm can i guess i'm raising my hand okay um i'm gonna guess that it means to like fight to rumble like we're ready to rumble is a specific act in fighting. Like I feel like it's like taking someone down to the ground. Oh, I see. Okay. Okay. Or like rumble is like to roll around like a wrestling move versus a fighting move. Yeah, yeah, yeah. To like tumble, like you said, tumble, rumble. Like a rough tum a rough tumble maybe yeah there we go see this is the kind of thing that you learn on this educational podcast called and that's why we're solving

mysteries uh so many so many that one to begin with uh christine why do you drink what do you drink and why do you drink oh thank you for asking that was pretty good that was delicious that little pop right there thank you so much i am uh drinking 19 crimes my favorite one which is like the most intense one um called the banished where they scratch his face out on the bottle um and today the crime says stealing fish from a pond or river maybe he was. I don't think that's really like worthy of being banished. I feel like you can like if you steal from somebody's koi pond. Sure. But like a river.

Does anyone own those fish in the river? I don't know. If you're stealing fish from a river, then a lot of fishermen out there are in trouble. Yeah. So fish are people, by the way. But yes, they should all be banished. There you go being an ass this is me coming in hot with your pc update of the day and why do you drink oh i will tell you

actually you know why i drink is because i started like reading again which i know sounds like dorky or whatever but like i haven't been like good about reading and now i've been reading every single night before bed and i'm really like into it and I went to our local bookstore and um I uh were you snapping for me I was snapping for you okay a little golf clap well the way that it because when you look at me you look above the camera so I thought you were like calling for a drink like you were like snapping at a server or something oh wow I really first of all love that you think there's a server in the studio. I know. I was like, damn. Love that you think I'm the do you know who I am kind of asshole. So I was like, I'll wait. Garcon milkshake. Thank you.

Sorry about that. Yes. Thank you for the snaps. And sorry for the insult. Yes. I've been reading and I picked up a bunch of Stephen King and I'm reading Do My Key right now, which is super creepy. And I'm just like really gung ho about my Stephen King obsession now. And I'm like diving right back into it. And so I was going to see if anyone had book recommendations, but I was like, how do we even organize that? So then I was like, maybe I'll make a Goodreads page finally of like all the books. Like I'll be gone in the dark because the HBO shows out now and um which is really good by the way and you know some Stephen King and people can recommend

books I don't know how that website works but I'm just guessing so that's why I drink because I'm just like ready to rumble and read a book wait a minute okay that should be on a shirt and also should be uh thank you for the snap sorry Sorry for the insult. That's just brilliant. All the way to the top. That should be on a woven sweater. That should be a needle point. Oh, boy. Why do you drink, Em?

A needle point. I don't know. I know I didn't know why I drank last time either, but I think this time is I'm still kind of in that, like, phase. I remember a couple weeks ago I was like I'm kind of of in that like phase. I remember a couple of weeks ago, I was like, I'm kind of in a math phase. I'm back in that. But I also feel like I'm slowly being able

to define it better. And I think it's, I have the Gemini curse upon me right now where I'm feeling incredibly, I'm feeling this like really necessary urge to be productive and creative. But then the other half of me is like, but you were productive and creative yesterday. So we should sit down and not do anything now. And so I have all these kind of like ideas in my head, but then like I don't have the gusto to like execute them.

So then I end up with this like weird lopsided guilt that I created on my own. It's a very like perpetual. I totally get that. It's like weird pressure that you've invented on yourself. Yes. And like everyone else is like, you're fine, but your brain is like, but what about all those things that you want to do? I've literally done nothing wrong and yet I am a failure. Yes. Just like hashtag depression. I think it's just, I think you're like spot on. And I bet you so many of our listeners right now are like, yeah, exactly. Cause I think, especially with this quarantine, like you can't distract yourself like we used to. And you can't feel productive like by going to the bank or whatever you did that day. So like, you're just stuck inside.

What's interesting is I have I'm doing that thing again. This is proof why I think I actually have some ADHD tendencies, which I have still not gotten diagnosed officially. However, I am just finding reasons more and more every day. I can't wait to just like give a list to my therapist and be like please just tell me I have ADHD you're just like I already wrote it sign at the bottom we're good by the way my ADHD list of reasons why I have ADHD is actually like a totally different list because I couldn't focus on the right list because I have ADHD um like last night I was trying to do my notes and you know what I didn't said I fucking googled literally every single cast member of Degrassi just to see where they were in the world.

And then like I like bookmarked like my favorite ones that are like really doing something with themselves. You bookmarked them. Like why? Like why did I do that? I don't know. But I just like I got so laser like laser focused tunnel visioned into it where I was like, well, I got to know. Like I've already caught up with 30 of them. I got to know the other 50,000.

Well, it sounds like you were very dedicated to that one task. So good for you. So that one task that was not needed at all. And then this morning in a frenzy, I woke up early to finish the notes I should have done last night. Yay. It's one of those things where it's like I'm finding ways to be productive about the things that literally nobody cares about at all and neither should i yeah i feel you for sure on that

and um i will drink to that from afar and as someone who knows you and well and from an outside perspective uh you are doing a lot of work and you have done some things in past recent weeks where i'm like holy shit i need to up my game here. So do not even. I'm just like, I'm always here to tell you how much you're doing for me and the show and other people. And like, I mean, even our listeners as far as like Marvel Mondays every single week. And we do the, you like do the thing, the Thursday happy hour. I do the thing. You do the thing.

Yeah. I appreciate that. And it's, I mean, it's such an obvious thing that like does not need to be said, but like, it's so easy to forget about the things you actually are doing consistently and just focus on the things that like you're not working on. Totally. There's so many random projects. Like it does not even necessarily career projects, but like, oh, I've been wanting to get this thing done in the apartment. And then I just look over to like that corner of the room and I'm like, I don't want to. And then I just end up hating myself. And then suddenly a week has passed and you're like, why am I such a loser? No, I get

that. And I feel like one of my biggest fears or like issues in life is the feeling of like wasting time or like losing time and so that feeling of like I could have done so many things in the past I literally waste time thinking about how I'm wasting time and how much I hate wasting time and yet now I've spent three hours lying in bed thinking about how I'm I also have a tip which you're not gonna love because I know you don't like to read so this is actually for everybody else who likes to read actually um this is a tip for you i have found that reading like well a it puts you to sleep much faster because you're not staring at a screen

which usually i'm watching queer eye so that i stay up till four in the morning but now i'm reading and so it like helps you fall asleep because the screen's gone but also i feel way more productive if i've read like a chapter of a book or something even even if it's just for fun. So that is one thing that I recommend is like if you do like to read, like read for an hour and then you'll be like, oh, I feel like I've educated. I don't know. It feels productive more than like watching TV sometimes. You know what I've been doing is it's not really reading before I go to bed. I do. I'm very good at not very good at how do I say this? I'm very good at it, but I haven't been doing it for a long time. So I can't say like, oh, I've always done this.

But when I want to go to bed at a certain time and I'm trying to get myself to go to bed earlier, I am good at meditating and like clearing my mind to fall asleep. How do you do that? Remember I told you my Iron Man thing where like I pretend I'm Iron Man? Yes, that's my favorite thing. It works. Remember I told you my Iron Man thing where like I pretend I'm Iron Man? Yes. That's my favorite thing. It works. But so, yeah.

Anyway, so that's – oh, I was going to say instead of reading, one thing I have been doing is in the middle of the day, I've given myself a designated time where I've been having tea time. Aw. Which has been very just lovely where I literally like don't even bring my phone to the table. I just sit there. I feel like literally a grandpa because I make my tea and I then I sit at the table. I like our dining room table and I just sit there and drink tea and I look at all the pictures on the wall. Oh my gosh, that's precious. I just look at the pictures and I just think of all my fond memories with all the people on the wall.

Especially me. And you're on there. And then by the time I'm done, I've finished my tea and then I go back to work. And you go back to your phone and it's me having sent 45 memes and being like, where the hell are you? That's what happened yesterday. I guarantee it. I was like, I bet you from afar I feel that you are not at your phone. And so immediately my desire is to just

harass the crap out of you. Well, so when I do that, I also, before I, while I'm making the tea, while I'm waiting for the water, I, um, I also, I'm making it into like my, my bridge into the beginning of the night or like the late afternoon. Um, cause I remember when I worked at ISS, my big thing was, oh, if I, um I um around four o'clock my boss Renee and I we called it snack time and and at four o'clock we would always at four o'clock go into the break room and grab something to eat and that was our like signal and so like okay only two more hours left oh that's nice and so now at four o'clock it's like okay I'm making tea I turn on we have like many things that light up in my apartment and so like just to make a to make an ambient mood um for like as the sun's starting to set

I turn on all the little lights I light up some candles and then I just like drink my tea and then I go back to work for the next couple hours that's very sweet and precious and that makes me feel very happy and I think I might take a page out of your book not literally since you hate reading and your page out of your comic book and, you know, try that out for myself. I love that idea. Anyway, I did not mean for that rant to go on forever and ever. Oh, I did. Okay, good.

episode or our story this episode um is one of those things where i once again i'm shocked that i never heard about it um because it's no one has recommended it or anything this was truly just a a search i actually tried to look up i typed in most haunted places in germany and i was going to do like a germany story but literally every article that seemed like it had some meat to it was in german and i was like well i don't know what to do with this get cracking on some duolingo my friend so i uh i ended up not going to germany i'm sorry so we we found ourselves in ireland and uh this is the story of lep castle. Okay. Which, thank God I remembered that everyone in Ireland spells everything so fucking wild and pronounces it even crazier. Because I thought this entire time it was Leap Castle because it's spelled like leapfrog. Oh, sure.

And then I watched one video and realized how stupid I was because everyone was like, Lep Castle. And I was like, okay. Well, it's like lept without the T at the end. Sort of. Cause everyone was like LEP castle. And I was like, okay, well, well, well, it's like leapt without the T at the end. Sort of. Thank you for making me feel better. Maybe it's not a silent T it's just an invisible T. Right.

Sure. A ghost T. So in, uh, this is in the County. Awfully. Oh, F F a L Y.

Listen, don't look at me. Ophali? It's probably pronounced like Christine or something. So like awfully difficult to say the name is how it's pronounced. It's been on many world's most haunted lists. It's known as the most haunted place in Ireland. Apparently kind of across the board it's known as the most haunted place in Ireland.

Or at least one of like the top three, maybe. It has 20 active spirits, and it's been on many TV shows, including the four that I watched, Most Haunted, Ghost Hunters, Ghost Adventures, and Scariest Places on Earth, the two latter being the ones we seem to have the most commentary on. Yes, is Scariest Places on Earth the one with Zelda, the commentator who sounds like a creepy witch? Okay. Yep. That's the one. That traumatized me. Apparently, so I don't know what this means because I'm not

from Ireland, but if you wanted to visit the castle, you can find it on the R421. I think that's like their version of a highway it's probably like route route 421 i'm stupid yes i guess i don't know though six miles from ardmore country house and the person who currently owns it named sean ryan um i think i heard a while ago that he no longer allows paranormal investigations in there but you can still visit it and in that case you can call

the number there's a lot of fucking numbers ireland ireland has some wild numbers okay 353-868-690547 you can call sean ryan up personally and be like i would like please don't tell him that we sent you though because i don't want to be in trouble for that for the record i don't think that's his personal number, though, because I don't want to be in trouble for that. For the record, I don't think that's his personal number. I think that's like the castle's number. But it's written on a few websites to be like, oh, he wants people to visit and you can call here. Oh, great. Then go ahead.

Never mind. That's what it came across as on a few different sources. Eat your heart out. That's what it came across as on a few different sources. Eat your heart out. So some of the sources, this is really confusing for me because the castle has multiple potential birth dates, essentially. So what I heard mainly is that it was from the year 1250 but i've also heard from many sources like i there were a lot of links i went through and

there was a lot of tv shows and the tv shows weren't even consistent um as they were like interviewing him so interviewing sean ryan so uh the main years i got were that this castle is from 1250 500 bc oh 800 ad or the 1500s whoa okay a lot of a lot of wiggle room there a lot of rumble room oh my god so i'm gonna say 1250 because that's when um history there there seemed to be a few facts historically about it also 1250 sounds so cool as a year i mean again us americans i'm just shocked that 1250 ever existed. Oh, God. I know people probably write on Reddit about how stupid I am. I don't care. I care and stop doing that.

Listen, if you grew up in America and then someone was like, this is from year four, you'd be like, what? Okay. okay so uh so the castle i'm gonna say was built around 1250 by the obanan clan um although some people the reason they say like it could go towards like 500 bc is because there are there is archaeological evidence suggesting that uh this castle or at least this property was well used during like the Iron Age or even the Neolithic Druid times. So it goes way back. If it were used by Druids, which rumor has it that that seems to be accurate, that Druids, even if the castle wasn't there yet, Druids, which are like mystic seers, at least use the property for like ceremonies, which they think could also be a reason why this place is so haunted because maybe they summoned something.

That's so cool though. I can't wrap my head around it. I hope it's kind of true. Me too. That sounds fascinating. In Ghost Adventures specifically, and usually we make fun of Ghost Adventures for being kind of over the top,

but every single one of the shows that I watched all had different answers to this, so I can't even knock Zach Bagans for having a different version of this. But at least in Ghost Adventures, they said that the druids summoned a powerful force on the land pre-castle time, and that's what caused

causes like the main spirit here but then other people say that it happened in like this like the 1800s oh okay so it really fluctuates yes um so it is one of the longest continually inhabited castles in ireland fun fact um and in50, when it was owned by the O'Bannon clan, or at least the land was, uh, O'Bannon territory, it was called, I'm just going to say the English version, the leap of the O'Bannons. That was the name of the land, the leap of the O'Bannons or the left of the O'Bannons. Oh yeah. Yeah. Probably the left. Um, it's, I think it's Gaelic Celtic. I don't know. I'm too, I'm too ignorant, but they have the Irish version of that and I'm not even going to try to pronounce it, but it translates to left of the O'Bannon's. And, uh, the legend is that when the O'Bannon clan lived there, they call it the Lep of the O'Bannons because two of the O'Bannon brothers leapt from the property's cliff to determine who would rule the family.

So, like, one was going to die and the surviving brother would carry on the name. And the sister was standing atop going, yeah, jump. We'll see what happens. I'll take over. The sister was like, I already signed the papers. I'm in charge. Let's see if we both go. You idiots. Jump wherever you want. Damn. what happens i'll take over the sister was like i already signed the papers i'm in you idiots jump wherever you want damn and so uh i guess leap and lep mean the same thing it's just a matter of

pronunciation so some say that it dates back to only the 1500s because the earliest um clan that lived there um with like the most history was in the 1500s and they were the o'carroll clan and they apparently were fucking wild like they were the most violent family they were super brutal they pretty much were like we will kill for literally no reason. Um, and so the castle through the O'Carrolls got passed down from generation to generation for a very long time. Um, and John O'Carroll, who was the original one to live there, he was the one that helped build a lot of the foundation of the castle. So I think that's where a lot of the confusion starts where the O'Carrolls built the castle, but O'Bannon's lived there, but also Druids were there. So I think Druids used the land. The O'Bannon's probably took control of the territory and then the O'Carrolls

built upon it. Got it. Um, that's to the best of my knowledge. It could be totally wrong. Um, so John O'Carroll died from the plague after he helped build uh the beginning parts of the castle his son took it over this is about to get really fucking like green leafy like on terms of drama like it's gonna get wild okay i'm ready so so john o'carroll built chunks of the castle, died from the plague, gave the castle to his son named Mulroney. Mulroney gave it to his son named, I don't know, Fiergenheim. Sure. Okay.

Who, by the way, allegedly like murdered guests at the dinner table and shit. Oh, cute, so like cute cute cute starting out strong so that son then had four sons um the two who are important here are teague and william so these are the great-grandchildren of the original o'carroll got it so teague and william are two of the brothers who are important here. One of them, Teague, uh, he was killed by a relative in,

in the castle. He was killed by an uncle or something. Um, and then the brother William in retaliation killed the uncle for killing his brother. Oh, geez. Okay. Does that make sense?

Yes. Okay. So before also the brother who like, uh, avenged his brother's death, William, he was also later killed by family. So both brothers ended up being killed by family after killing for each other. Are you telling me your Greenleaf show is like super brutal and violent? Because that is not something I was expecting.

Not brutal and violent, but brutally dramatic. Okay, okay. By the way, season five just came out and I told my mom about it and I've never heard that woman shriek that loudly. She was like, I gotta, I'm canceling my plans. I gotta turn on the TV. Oh my God. If you don't watch Greenleaf,

there's something wrong with you. Every single person who has listened to me and given it a try has tweeted and been like, I've never been given better advice. Okay, but can I ask you a real question, like on the spot, please? Okay, so I you had told me about it. And I was like, I'd like to watch it. And then you said you better not watch it because you are going to try and ruin it. And so then I never watched it. But like, I really want to watch it. And so now I'm like scared to watch it. But I would never I don't want to ruin it. I just want to enjoy it. I don't think you'll ruin it. I think what I meant by that is it was in the vein of it being like the Duggars and being like very like fundamentalist Christian thing.

Like I know like with the Duggars and the Plaths and everything, you would definitely have to keep a much more open mind before criticizing. Well, yeah, but I mean I don't think that you watch it and go like, oh, wow, yeah, I wish I were more fundamentally Christian. I do. No Christian. I do. No. Maybe you do. Maybe you do. No, the Greenleaf is different in that it's at least fictional. So I think you would.

Oh, I always forget that. I think you would. Because I think the conversation you're referring to is we were on the train. Yeah, I was so mad. I locked myself in the bathroom. And Eva was like, what do I do here? On the train back from San Diego, we were talking about the Plaths. That's what it was. And I was just like asking a million questions and you were like, you're not allowed to watch it because you're going to ruin it.

And I was like, well, yes, I think you were, I think I thought you were going to ruin it because the Plaths, I was so excited and I was, I was so excited about how banana grams they are. so excited about how banana grams they are. And I was afraid that in the moment that you are going to be like, like more, uh, nervous about their like beliefs and how scary they are versus how like bananas crazy they are. Yeah. But I feel like when I watch like, um, some really fucked up shows, you know, and like, uh, whatchamacallit, uh, my strange addiction and things like that, that are definitely problematic but still... I think you're right. I think I spoke too soon. I think I spoke too soon on that. You know the worst part that I never told you? I had already bought it on the train and then

you were like, you're not allowed to. Then I went and I cried in the bathroom and then I came back out and was like, I'm not going to watch it. Now I'm just so jealous every time we talk about it because I'm like, all I want to do is watch these things I think the plaths I think you would probably just knowing who you are I think you'd probably watch it one time to be caught up with the information but it would just be two fucking bananas I think green leaf you would love okay great I'm on it yeah I think that's what it is. Okay. I promise I won't ruin it. I promise. I don't think, I think, I think the reason I said that is because I think when I first told you that I was obsessed with the Duggars, I didn't do a good job on my end of making the disclaimer that I don't agree with them. And so I think I like was afraid that you were going to be like, oh, so like

you like definitely a bit of confusion where I went like, wait, so we are talking about the same people who do like blank, blank and blank. Right. Like we're not on board with that. Right. I think hearing that I warped it into my crazy brain where I got paranoid that you judged me. And then I was afraid. It is fair. I mean, it is fair that I probably would have been like, what the fuck are these people doing? But- I think that's why I made that comment. First of all, very sorry I made you cry. I hate that. No, no, no. We were on a train in the middle of our tour. There were plenty of reasons for me to be crying in a train bathroom. Do not worry. But I think the reason is because I took that and warped it in my brain to feel like you judged me. And then I was afraid

if you watched any other shows like that, you were going to continue to judge me even more. And then I got really scared. And then I panic screamed at you. Listen, as someone who's like terrified of being judged at any moment, I don't blame you for a second. I do feel like I really want to watch it, but I will do it really in silence. And then I will I will only text you funny things. I will not try and ruin it I promise you I think now that we're on the same page you would enjoy it as long as you don't think I'm someone who like agrees with them you're fine okay okay also Greenleaf as a fictional show in general you will love also part of my fear was that when you were talking about on the show

I was like can we make it clear to everyone else that we're not on the same page? And then obviously that was very clear. And I was the only paranoid person. So this is not me. I think we were all just paranoid in different corners of the exact same room. I think that's what happened. That seems to be our show.

Anyway, yes, I do not agree with the Duggars, but I'm fascinated by any fundamentalist Christian family show out there because it's just so bananas. Where were we? Oh, my gosh. Oh, I don't know. The Irish Greenleafs.

They're all murdering each other. Left and right. So both of the brothers ended up dying from relatives who, after killing other relatives for each other such a mess both of those brothers before they died had sons those sons i think end up also killing each other at different times um basically it all comes down to this the final uh oh carol relative Well, so his name was, one of them, his name was Charles.

He also literally killed like 150 of his own fucking men at one point. Oh. Like, they're just brutal people. He later has a nephew named John. He's like the 7,000th

fucking John in this family line, by the way. And he takes over the castle in 1629. So everything else, just take it out of your brain. 1629 is where we are. Got it.

So the O'Carrolls would actually, again, very brutal, very violent. They would literally hire out other families to train them how to be better warriors. And then instead of, like like paying them for their services, they would kill them like after they learned their secrets. That's fun. So they would call out like, um, uh,

there was one clan called the, the McMahons. Okay. And so I guess one of the, uh, one of the O'Carrolls, he didn't like the Earl of Tyrone. So we hired the McMahon clan to either teach him how to kill or hired them to

literally be like mercenaries and kill for him. Jesus. And there were 40 different people from the McMahon clan who were involved in this. And so once they finally beat out this Earl of Tyrone guy, they said like, Oh, well, let's celebrate. Come over to the castle and we'll have a big feast. And when they got there, he had poisoned their food and then like cut their throats. Oh, my. This is some Game of Thrones shit.

Yeah, that's probably a better way to say it than the green I guess it's probably more palatable for our audience or like at least like uh universally understood yes that's probably uh yes yes also I've never seen Game of Thrones I should probably get into that while we're quarantined it's very good and very gruesome so just heads up but a lot of drama you would love that part a lot of drama I come for the drama I say for the drama. Nothing else really matters. Let's see. Oh, yeah. Oh, so then here's the other crazy thing.

So I haven't mentioned this yet. There's something in the castle called the oubliette, which in French means to forget. And it's basically like this like trap door into like a hole and and it's like there's specifically i don't think all oubliettes did this but there specifically had a bed of like spikes oh so you could just throw people down there and impale them and let them die and it was called to forget you would literally just forget them down there oh my god what the fuck so a lot of the people that the o'carroll clan would have over and kill they would just throw them all down there afterwards just like forget about get rid of the cute forget about them so they also the same thing that they did to the mcmahon. They also did that to 39 different people in the O'Neill clan. Where they, I think that one,

either that one was the one where they poisoned their food and then cut their throats or they like just killed them all in their sleep when they were staying at the castle or something. It's all pretty much the same and terrible. But the most famous murder is probably in the, it's literally now

called the bloody chapel. Um, it was just the chapel in the castle. And I guess one of the O'Carrolls was a priest. So he would, you know, do his sermons there. And, uh, the, one of the priests. Okay. So his name was Thaddeus O'Carroll. His brother Teague O'Carroll, many Teagues, many Johns. A separate Teague from the one I already told you about. So Teague and Thaddeus were brothers in the O'Carroll clan. Thaddeus was a priest. I think their father, another Mulroney, Jesus, had their father had just died. And so the two of them were trying to figure out like who of them now is in

charge of the family. And Thaddeus said like, Oh, I'm going to be in charge. And Teague didn't like that. So in the middle of one of Thaddeus's sermons in front of like the whole church, ran up behind him and stabbed him with a sword and it went through his body

and everyone watched him die preaching. Oh my God. This is like that shit crazy okay so in 1649 the castle was given away from the carol the o'carrolls to the darby family um and this is because uh jonathan darby the second um he marries an o'carroll woman i'm pretty sure the castle was given to him as dowry for their marriage. Oh, that's nice. I'm pretty sure. Um, and so anyway, so at one point, I think in the sixties, the 1660s, uh, the O'Carrolls ended up getting the castle back, but then it ends up going back to the Darby's pretty quickly. And it stayed within the Darby line for an even longer time.

Like, so they, the Darby's got a hold of the castle and right around 1640. And then it was still in their family all the way through the 1800s, all the way through the 1920s, I think. So for like 300 years, they, the Darby line was in charge. And so in 1889, like so many years ago, like 150 years before that was Jonathan Darby II, who was the first Darby in the castle. By 1889, literally every firstborn son in this family

was Jonathan Darby the boy. every firstborn son in this family was Jonathan Darby the boy. So in 1889, Jonathan Charles Darby, the sixth or seventh at that point, married a woman named Mildred Dill, which I like to call her Millie Dilly. Yes. I also like to call her that, by the way. And in 1889 uh millie dilly so obviously married him and moved into the castle she also was kind of like i think a feminist in her heyday she was a really well known author but because she was a woman she had a different pen name sure which was andrew mary okay um and she was a gothic novelist, so she wrote about kind of creepy stuff. Dope. Yeah, so I'm into that. I am too. Also, apparently her and her husband were spiritualists because this was the 1880s.

Right. So they were very active in performing seances in the castle. Uh-oh. There's a lot of people to probably summon out of that little oubliette situation. Bingo. summon out of that little oubliette situation bingo and uh that is the other storyline for how all the spirits got there because one story is that the druids summoned these things back in like 500 bc or whatever i don't even remember um or they think that in the 1880s mildred and her husband were spiritualists and ended up bringing things

in it could be a combination of both right um but that's those are the two different stories for how all the spirits came to be they also say that years later in the 1920s um the oubliette was discovered by people doing renovations and when they opened that up and like removed all the bodies, that was like kind of another awakening for all the spirits to come out. Oh, right, because you're disturbing their resting place, so to speak. Oh, Jesus. So there's many ways for like how these spirits got in. So in 1910, actually, so this is 30 years after having already lived in the castle.

Millie Dilley, she publishes a short story. She already has published many short stories and novels. Um, by the way, where she calls her husband like really awful names. Oh, she's like not a fan of her husband.

Oh, okay. She calls him an arrogant autocrat with a violent temper. And she complains in her writing to the public about how he likes to track mud into her clean floors. Oh, that's the worst offense of all, for sure. I know it. I also saw a different source where they weren't both spiritualists that performed seances, but she was, and he hated it. He just tracked mud in to the seance room.

Bingo. hated it. He just tracked mud in to the seance room. Bingo. It sounds like I would almost agree with that more given the fact that she wrote in her own books and short stories that she like didn't really like her husband. It would make sense that they didn't have a hobby. Didn't like share hobbies.

Right. Exactly. So I would bet that she was the spiritualist and he was like fuck I married this like ghostly woman which is what Blaze says every day. I was like fuck i married this like ghostly woman which is what blaze says every day i was like why does that sound so familiar uh so one thing that she published in a magazine what in 1898 was called a house of horrors which was about lep castle uh although it was called killman castle in the story and it has recently been republished all of her accounts of

the lep castle um the republished version is called lep castle the house of horrors the most haunted castle in ireland cool um but yeah so they were rumored to hold seances and also because she was a gothic novelist as she was called i'm sure that added to like the pr of this of like oh well a ghostly woman who performs seances like in a haunted castle right so uh so they i haven't brought this up yet but one of the main spirits in the castle is it apparently is um so the elemental is supposed to be like the most powerful force in this castle and that's the one that the story is like oh well the elemental came from the druids or they came from mildred okay um they just don't know which one, but, uh, the daughter of the, uh, oh, sorry. I was reading the wrong thing. So the Darby's live in this castle.

And during the Irish civil war in the 1920s, the Darby's actually also hid like treasure or like their like prize possessions all over the property throughout the castle and weird spaces. And to this day, we still don't know where they hid them. Cool. I guess at one point the Darby's got imprisoned during the war. And then by the time they were released, they didn't remember where they hid everything. So no one's been able to figure it out.

Also during that time, the Darby's, they were people who swore allegiance to the British crown, apparently. And so during the Irish Civil War, the locals did not like their castle on top of the fact that they were trying to expand their land. And so tenants that they had living in the castle had to raise their rent. rent. And so a combination of this made people just really hate the Darby is to a point where people started like trying to break into the castle and loot their shit. And Darby's like up and left. They just fled.

Apparently at one point shots were fired near the castle. Their yard was being destroyed. And apparently the IRA was even out to get them because they were english and so the ira made them uh an object of interest or a person of interest and so what's fucked up about it is so they the darby's are gone but they left their how bougie is this their domesticated peacocks all over the castle. I had no idea what you were going to say, but I did not expect that. Okay.

Well, the IRA apparently, like, they, like, killed all of the peacocks. Don't. Don't. Are you serious? Just like as an extra fuck you to them. What the fuck? Don't do that. And then hung them from hooks on the top of the tower to warn people.

Oh, M. Oh, no. That's so fucked up. Of all the things so far, that is the most fucked up. Sorry. You know, animals get involved and it's bad. I know. Especially when they were domesticated and they seemed like they were kind.

They were like little pets. Yeah, little peacocks. Nope, never nope never mind okay don't even try i don't want to know where your brain's gonna go with that okay okay uh okay so then an unidentified group of 11 men broke into the castle because remember people are trying to loot this place right um a group of 11 men break into the castle they smash the furniture into firewood and they literally set the castle on fire oh um apparently one of the tenants who was still living in the castle uh gave his account of what happened and basically these this group of men were banging on the door um and they said that it was like two in the morning they were banging on the door and they said that it was like two in the morning they were banging on the door and they said that they needed a place to stay for the night and since I think he was like the I don't know he he worked there in some capacity so he let them in

and they held him at gunpoint with his wife and child and he begged them to let them go and they said okay you have 20 minutes to grab your shit and leave and never come back and so after 20 minutes they left and then these 11 men uh set the entire building on fire but they only got like the north wing of the fire or the north wing of the castle that night after the place the fire was going out, people looted and took as much as they could. And then the second night it caught on fire again and the rest of the castle kind of got destroyed. Lord. So there are some artifacts left because some of the furniture was saved. But for the most part, it was just kind of all destroyed except for the foundation of the castle.

Everything inside was gone. And then after that fire, when they were trying to do renovations, that's when they found the oubliette. Oh, can you imagine being the one to like open that up though? They found three cartloads worth of human bones. Okay, this is like a really probably grotesque. Sorry, Chia, so loud. This is probably a grotesque

question but like obviously i have to ask now so if they threw people in there on these spikes did they have someone who came and like yeah removed them from the spike so that the next person could go on the spikes no according to according to sean ryan the at some point eventually their bodies are just being thrown on top of old bones. So they just. Instead of the spikes. They were just left there. It was just building and building.

So they didn't even necessarily die right away. They just like were left there to die. That's even worse. Oh, no. Yeah. So some of them were impaled with the spikes. And then over time, they were just falling onto bones and then just suffering. And also think about the fact that this was in 1922 that they found the bones,

and those bones went arguably back to the 1500s. So it was like 400-year-old dead bodies. Like dusty bones. It was just a recipe for spirits horrifying so okay so once they the the third storyline for like all the spirits coming out is that you know once they opened up the oubliette and removed like 400 year old dead bodies that's when the spirits got really crazy but if you think about it like 30 years or 40 years before that mildred was already doing true seances there and writing about how haunted it was like she had all these

short stories about all the crazy experiences so that one that story's kind of debunked although you could argue that once they opened up the oubliette that's when it got really fucking that makes sense um there is so these are just some of the reports. Also, there happens to be something called a murder hole room. And that's not that. Which like they don't, they don't really give any more information

because they say that the murder hole room, they don't know where the exact location was, but it was the site of an O'Carroll murder. And it's like, okay, well there were like 50 O'Carrolls murdered around here. And there's a massive oubliette dungeon with spikes. I'm imagining that's the murder hole. Right.

That's weird. So there could be more than one murder hole, so to speak. There could be. And it like just got removed during renovations or something. And we'll just never know about it. Okay. But anyway, so these are just some of the things that have happened there. Let me see. Oh, I lost there. Um, let me see.

Oh, I lost it. Oh, one last thing. So, uh, the castle since the 1920s ended up kind of falling into complete ruin until 50 years later in the seventies, one of the O'Carroll ancestors named Peter Bartlett purchased it and he tried to do as many renovations as he could, but then he died, I think in the eighties. And then by the, by the early nineties, Sean Ryan and his family bought the castle and now they're trying to do renovations. Okay. Um, so that's where we are today. Sean Ryan and his family still own it. Right. We have his phone number. I remember. We all have his phone number now. He's probably, if it may be his kid listens to this podcast and he's like, God damn it. Like I would never allow that to be public.

So here are just some of the things. So apparently there are reports of a bright, bright light in the windows and spaces where there is no electricity anymore. People usually with the elemental who is like, Oh, I don't like that. The combined being of all negative energy in the castle like is combined into one manifestation um apparently when the elemental is around you'll smell burnt rubber

um let's see also apparently the elemental is the dark shadow figure that people see lurking by the stairwell apparently he loves being by the stairwell. In the priest's house, which was an actual part of this castle, people see apparitions. And one of the Darby's even said, quote, there is something heavy that lies on people's beds and snores and they feel the weight of a great body pressing against them. A monk also walks in at one window and out the other.

So that's terrifying alone. And then there are two spirits of little girls named Emily and Charlotte, and they're seen playing in the main hall, and they lived on the estate apparently in the 1600s. Apparently Emily died at 11 by literally falling off the fucking castle oh shit

and people will still see a little girl falling and then before she hits the ground she disappears but there have been people who freak out being like someone's falling and then they're like oh no no that's just they're like no no it's a little girl and they're like no it's okay she does that

every day and she does it every morning just wants attention oh my god but she apparently like slipped and fell so people still see her there also charlotte was her sister and people still see charlotte um so it's there's different manifestations or different experiences people have so some people when it comes to the little kids, will see Emily falling off the tower and their, and her sister Charlotte, kind of like dragging Emily away with like a broken leg. Like her leg looks really fucked up. Jeez.

People will also see Emily and Charlotte playing together throughout the castle. And like, apparently Sean's daughter, who like, by the way, imagine make a 12 year old and you have to go live in the most haunted castle no she says that she sees the girls all the time and her parents didn't even believe her until they saw the girls themselves and they were like holy shit you've been seeing these girls all the time she's like yes what have I been telling you but the daughter says that they will chase each other around. And what's kind of eerie is that the daughter says that you can see the girls and they look like they're like shouting and screaming at each other and like having fun, but you can't hear them.

Weird. So they're just like mouthing screams. That's creepy. And I wonder, I mean, that's a whole nother theory of like how much of your energy or like what energy if the energy being used to show yourself is different than the sound oh that's weird yeah or like how much energy are you giving so that someone can see you visually it doesn't take away from your audible experience because i feel like most of the time it's more common to hear things than it is to see them outright you know so i huh, that's creepy. Also, a lot of people see the girls by the stairwell.

And so then there's an argument that the elemental is by the stairs. So maybe the little girls are the elemental trying to look like previous owners of the house. Oh, no. So you feel vulnerable enough to approach it. And children, since like demons like to be children. Oh, goodness goodness that's even worse it's the perfect concoction of yeah oh a previous owner and a child so like you'll definitely want to approach her oh and maybe it can't make the noise of a child it can just look

like a child holy shit you know how sometimes you know how sometimes, you know how sometimes like girls, but then the voice sounds really like demonic and garbled and like maybe just can't make the noise of a little child. Goose cam. Oh my gosh. Oh God. Apparently people also see the apparition of an old man sitting in an armchair by the fireplace. There is an, oh, apparently Emily and Charlotte's nanny is often seen and she likes blonde people the most. She'll like approach them more.

Okay. And apparently she will like grab people's arms or she'll like play with their hair. And what's weird is a lot of the times when that happens, guests are like awkwardly calm. Like it's like she puts this like presence over you to not be scared. Oh, well, that's kind of nice, I guess. And she's also seen a lot sitting with the girls watching them play.

Okay, good. So maybe they are kids. I don't know. Fingers crossed. Fingers crossed. It's just weird that they, why would the kids want to be near the stairs with the demon? Maybe they're drawn to it. Okay, I'm just going to stop throwing out bullshit theories that I know nothing about.

I mean, who's to say? What is this show without bullshit theories that we know nothing about? There's also a spear called the Red Lady. She's a woman who's seen a long red dress. She's very tall with long brown hair, but she is known to be carrying a dagger and having it raised like she's angry. Wow. That's next level. Like usually you hear like the lady in the dress, but like with a knife is like sobbing in the corner. Yeah. In her wedding dress. This one is out for literal blood. So that's so much worse. Apparently she has a glow. She like glows

from the inside. Like a lantern is one lantern is one of the quotes I saw. That she like, she seems dark and then as she's like, she becomes more illuminated with time and literally is glowing from like her belly out. Apparently people also feel an immense cold feeling in the room and they feel like the cold literally like hits their heart. The cold is so powerful whoa and they'll feel their heart icy cold and then very quickly become like fire hot um and so a lot of people don't reallycarroll clan um the most common i mean the the understanding for both storylines is it starts with that she was kidnapped and sexually assaulted and

got pregnant in the assault oh f and with the light yeah oh no i didn't think about that oh shit oh that was my first thought i was like maybe she was pregnant and here we are oh no the pregnancy glow oh god um but so much worse it ends pretty even worse than that um where storyline one is that she gives birth to the baby like they hold her there until she gives birth to the baby. Like they hold her there until she gives birth to the baby. And then they killed the baby via a knife. They, and just to get rid of the baby.

Right. Um, and then she was so distraught that she died by suicide with the same knife. Storyline two is that she tried to escape while pregnant and they, she tried to escape. They ended up catching her and then they stabbed her to death so either way is horrible but the idea is that now she has the dagger raised and

like i no longer blame her i guess yeah for eternity just wanting to like get then get uh revenge wow um although there is the argument to be made that a lot of mediums have also seen a tall woman in a red dress by the stairwell. And come like midnight to three in the morning, she will literally shapeshift and her face becomes very ugly. So she's a demon too. Oh, no. So she could also be a demon. Oh, no. So I don't know what to tell you so the elemental um the elemental spirit specifically um they don't know where it

comes from again it could be the druids who were using uh who were doing ceremonies on the land it could also be a magic practitioner named Gerald, literally Gerald Fitzgerald, who was apparently the Earl of Kildare. Kildare? Kildare? And at one point, I guess he tried to actually take the property from the O'Carrolls,

and it didn't work, and so they think that maybe he cursed the castle. Oh, interesting. But no matter what it is, apparently it's menacing and sinister. It's a shape shifter. It will not bother you if you don't bother it. But once it's provoked, it will like fuck you up. Um, so they don't know if it's based in a cult where it came from, comes from, or maybe it's the manifestation of literally hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of death over hundreds and hundreds of years. Right.

Oh, that's even scarier. Our girl Millie Dilley, she calls it It, and she calls it The Thing. Oh, that gave me goose cam. She said that one time she saw it leaning on the stair banister with its hands, even though it didn't have any hands. Oh, God. She has described it as the size of a sheep, but with a human face, black holes for eyes and a nose and giving off the smell of a rotting corpse. So basically, Millie Dilley is also the ghostwriter for Megan, saying that she smells like a fucking corpse.

In the locker room. So Millie, when she was in seventh grade, her name was actually Megan. Um, that's true. These are also just some of the things that, uh,

these are just some of the reports. This is kind of just in one paragraph of a chunk. So I'm just going to read it all out at once. Um, so Sean says that they are, uh, that he has seen people with hazes around them. He says that he has heard crowds talking around him. And then when he turns the corner, nothing's there.

Christine, sound familiar? Don't do this to me. Don't do this to me. Apparently guests have reported being touched or have someone brush up past them. People have seen a woman near the main hall. They've seen children near the main hall. They've seen an old man near the main hall.

They've seen manifestations. They have felt people have felt really nauseous after they smell the burnt rubber. People have seen monks walking around on the grass. They've actually seen a priest running down the steps as if he's hiding from you, which I hate. I hate that, too. People have gotten shoved. They've seen a green light flashing. People have experienced cold bursts, sea shadow figures.

Apparently, the barometric pressure has also lowered itself pretty significantly, which is usually a sign that activity is about to really get wild. that um uh activity is about to really get wild um people have seen a bearded face with a hood flash in front of them and then shimmer away no no no like just bam face goodbye i like the shimmer though it's like a little little zazzy it's a little it's the razzle dazzle razzle dazzle ready to razzle dazzle okay um also they've gotten evps which in the four shows that i listed earlier i listened to them and i think almost every show got kind of a similar evp and it's really like gut-wrenching but it's a woman screaming like truly for her life oh oh no no no um which you could argue is the lady in red being stabbed or anyone being thrown down the Oubliette. Sure. They've also gotten EVPs of,

they only knew this because Sean was next to them and could confirm it, but they've gotten EVPs of a man speaking in like 1400s Gaelic. Oh, that's weird. Cause they were like, we don't know what this is saying. What is he saying? And they were like, Oh,

it's in Gaelic. That's why I don't understand. People have showed mild signs of possession by feeling really aggressive and agitated and felt like they're being scratched. People's arms and shoulders have been grabbed. There's been loud bangings, loud sounds of someone following you, like very clear sounds of someone following you. People have experienced static shocks when they shouldn't have.

They've heard chanting. And then let's see oh my favorite is sean said that pictures were taken off of a wall and left on his bed and it was because he apparently he had a medium in there at one point who said like okay the spirits here have three requests like don't ever lock this door don't block this wall ever and don't do something else and he like blocked the wall what he like put furniture in front of the wall just for like a night and he woke up the next day and had like the picture frames all on his bed goodbye i was like has he called it a gentle reminder a gentle reminder uh let's see people also say that they see the ghost of an old man climbing out of the oubliette horrifying the uh charlotte has been seen calling out emily's name

which is interesting because you can audibly hear her that time that's a good point uh electronics electronics will die when fully charged and then a couple minutes later after you give up using them will turn themselves back on and have a full charge nope um you can hear whispering in your ear people have felt blowing on their face um emf detectors will spike and people have seen orbs in the show most haunted uh one of the guys says that he feels he has a weird feeling that there's a spirit nearby. And so trying to get, um, evidence on camera,

he starts provoking the spirit and really instantly gets shoved harder than like a live human being can shove a person. Oh dear. And he's so scared. Like, I mean, I obviously it's reality TV and like anyone could be acting, but like,

he's for sure like messed up about it. Like he's lying on the ground and like shocked. He's like, he's for sure like messed up about it like he's lying on the ground and like shocked he's like he's telling the other investigator like please don't provoke him like let's get the hell out of here let's get out of here and he starts crying on the camera and he's like just totally shaken up he's like i don't want to go back in there um also uh one investigator named allison oh oborn obornne says that she actually brought an ovulus in, and the first word that came out of the ovulus was elemental. Oh, God. The other two words were horrible and reveal. And then she heard a lot of bangs, a lot of equipment like REM pods and stuff triggered.

She heard a guttural male voice. She heard footsteps.tural male voice. She heard footsteps. And then with the spirit box, she heard the words leave and bitch. Whoa. Holy shit. So also on the show, Scariest Places on Earth, the wife said that she has seen shadows.

She thought she was talking to Sean and realized there was no one else in the room with her. Let's see the, Oh, apparently I found out through scariest places on earth that there are still Druids out there today are practitioners at least who have gone to the castle. And I learned a fun fact about Druids. Fun fact. One of their practices is when they're in a haunted place,

they will make themselves burp on purpose to prevent spirits from possessing them. Interesting. So fun fact, like bring a can of Coke and get a little crazy. Okay. Well, I have like a weird side note on that, which is a lot of times, not a lot of times, but sometimes if you start meditating and you're meditating like really regularly, you start burping and it's like the idea that you're meditating like really regularly, you start burping. And it's like the idea that you're like, maybe that's what they're doing. Yeah, it's it's like a common thing with meditation. If you get like really deep into a really deep meditative state, a lot of times you'll your body will start burping to like release stuff. Weird. That's just an interesting little side. So maybe they're meditating and burping through that maybe yeah

interesting like releasing stuff that's not good yeah um so apparently in uh this is the last thing i'm going to say but the small the short stories that mildred was writing there's a few excerpts um basically her talking about all of her experiences one of them is of like a little old man in a green cutaway coat who shows up every now and then, which sounds like a leprechaun to me. She also said in the priest house, there's a burly man in rough clothes who pushes a barrel up the stairs. One of the another one, she said that she put her hand out and she felt someone grab her hand and the hand was much colder than hers and then all of a sudden when the hand like moved away from her she heard a deep human groan that sounded like it was praying over her. She also said that

there's a tall dark woman in a silk in a scarlet silk dress, so probably the lady in red. And Mildred said she haunts the blue room, which always used to be the nursery. She sobs at the foot of the children's beds. Oh. Also, there is, she also talks about the lady in red again, saying that her, oh, no, this isn't Mildred, sorry. This is the show Most Haunted,

where the medium saw the tall lady in red shapeshifting, said that the face changed to a grotesque one, and the woman at different points in the show was hitting people's hands so hard that one of the cameraman's cameras went flying. Someone was holding a soda can. The soda can went flying out of their hands. Oh, shit.

Apparently, the audio kept cutting in and out, so they had to, like, get rid of certain scenes because they didn't have audio. Um, apparently she changes shape and she can shift all the way into an animal, which would confirm Mildred saying that it looked like a sheep, like a human face. Oh yeah. Um, and then, uh, that's about it.

But I'll end on a quote from scariest places on earth they interviewed Sean's little like 12 year old daughter who said quote I do think the spirits will be here for a long time after we're all gone and dead and the next people who live in the castle will probably come back to haunt them too oh so that's let castle she's like I'll join them it's fine oh you know what's weird about that sheep thing? Well, I don't even know if that's weird, but like, you know how they say goats are a demonic symbol? Oh, yeah. Maybe she was seeing a goat, not a sheep.

Maybe. I feel like to other people, they look very different, but I'm like not a farmer. I don't know what they look like. They probably do. And also, I feel like if you lived out in the land in Ireland, you probably know the difference between a sheep and a goat so you're not an ignorant realistically i i do know the differences like between a sheep and a goat but i can understand like it's tiny and white like yeah like in the distance maybe you're not sure i don't know right i don't know um wow well that was spooky m and probably is one of those things that will scare me tonight when I'm home alone. So thank you very much for that.

You're welcome. So I have a story for you. Last week I said I had some unsolved cases that I wanted to talk about. So this is another one. Yes. Oh, perfect. This was suggested to me by my pal Disgruntled Pelican on Twitter, This was suggested to me by my pal Disgruntled Pelican on Twitter, who's just an old Twitter follower that I always enjoy interacting with.

And they suggested that I cover the disappearance of Kyron Horman. Do you know about this? Not even a little bit. Perfect. So I didn't either, to be fair. Okay. This is a big case up in Oregon. What year?

2002. Okay. I don't feel too bad about not knowing it then. No, yeah. It's not very current, but it's still unsolved. Got it. So Kyron Richard Horman was born September 9, 2002, in Portland, Oregon. He was the son of Desiree Young and Kane Horman, who was an engineer for Intel. Desiree and Kane divorced eight months into her pregnancy with Kyron, Kyron.

And according to so I found this YouTuber named Kendall Ray and she covered the story and did an awesome job. I got a ton of research from her. And according to her video, Kane actually cheated on Desiree while she was pregnant with Kyron. And that kind of was confirmed by a couple other sources that I found when I went digging a little bit. I see. Okay. So Desiree was pregnant with Kyron.

Her husband Kane cheats on her with another woman. Then they are divorced for, quote, irreconcilable differences. And the two had been granted shared custody of Kyron until 2004. Oh, I said that takes place in 2002. I meant 2010. I'm sorry. He was born in 2002. Oh, I feel a little shittier.

It's okay. It's okay. I don't even know why I said that. This is the 10-year anniversary. Last month. I see about that he was born in 2002 um so they shared custody of kyron until 2004 uh but not long after that desiree was actually diagnosed with kidney failure failure and um it required extensive medical intervention so kane uh kyron's dad took full custody and um even though desiree was pretty was still really close with kyron and they saw each other a lot um kane kind of became like the sole uh parent as far as like raising kyron and that kind of thing and uh in 2007 he actually

married the woman that he had been seeing during uh Desiree's pregnancy um and her name is Terry Moulton okay and uh in 2008 Terry and Kane who were now raising Kyron uh gave birth to their own daughter and she had also brought a son from a previous relationship into their home so like I said uh because of Desiree's health issues Kyron lived with them for the most part um but she they often she often visited them and vice versa he would go and stay with his mom for So like I said, because of Desiree's health issues, Kyron lived with them for the most part. But she they often she often visited them and vice versa. He would go and stay with his mom for a few days and they were still really close. And it was just for health issues. She was still a really good parent and all that.

In 2010, Kyron was a second grader at Skyline Elementary School and he was seven years old. And that's when the case begins okay dun dun dun buckle knuckle and buckle knock and buck knock and buck let's crack into it to appease all the people who hate the other phrase um so that day the school was hosting a science fair uh oh i didn't even say what day june 4th my birthday 2010 happy happy birthday yeah good day for me perhaps uh it would have been my what 19th birthday not a great day for the family question were you ever part of a science fair um i think so but i feel like i probably just like procrastinated and didn't really

participate. What about you? Oh, I loved the science fair. I bet. I, so my mom, one of her favorite memories of my childhood was, uh, in fourth grade, we were part of the invention convention and we made, my mom is very proud of me, although literally is so stupid like my it's one of those things where like only if you're a mother will it ever be like just so worth praise but like as someone who has grown up and like with this and has hindsight it's like such a trash moment tell me so my invention because I had a cat at the time I had a cat and a dog and the dog always ate the cat's food. And so I made the cat box, which is like not an original fucking name, but it was literally, I mean, if we're being super honest, it was a glorified basket over the fucking food that the cat could reach and the dog couldn't. That was it.

That was it. But my mom to this day thinks it was like a multi-million dollar idea where like I to be fair like the interior designer in me really came out and like we put like a little disco ball in there. That's precious though. I would probably buy that for Junie. cat walked in and there'd be like party lights as if like this cat wanted a goddamn rave. But like it looked really cool on the inside and it was all motion censored. So like I think I had like music playing at a time when like there wasn't like triggering, like not triggering, but like trigger like motion triggered effects and things like that. So it was just and I think I like drew a picture of my cat and like taped it on the inside. So like it felt like home. It was really stupid, but I was trying to make basically of my cat and like taped it on the inside. So like it felt like home. It was really stupid. But I was trying to make basically a cat lounge. And I put it all inside of this like upside down Tupperware box.

Linda, I need photos of this ASAP. I'd also like an original prototype for Juniper because this sounds amazing. Honestly, at this point, I could probably just make another one in like 20 minutes. But I swear to God, as a nine-year-old, I spent like I'd say six straight weeks on it thinking it was the most arduous task I've ever done in my life. Well, I love that. Well, OK, that's funny because in Blaze's family, they did the invention convention, which we never did.

I would have been all about that as a kid, but we never got to do that. But I guess one of his brothers, i think it was luke like created this invention at the time and now it's like a real it was on shark tank like somebody else made it and it's like a real thing um and so they're like super bitter about it because they were like he invented that as an eight-year-old we should have like patented it um it was i'm trying to remember it was some sort of snack container where like you could put multiple snacks in, but they wouldn't like get mixed together or something. It was like some sort of lunch accoutrement.

I don't know the right word. Some sort of like accessory that was for bringing food. Oh, you know what it was? Sorry. It was for cereal where you could keep the milk separate from the cereal so it wouldn't get soggy until you combine them. And now it's like a real thing at bed bath and beyond yeah that's a genius invention and like he made that up at eight years old and they're still like so pissed that like this is a big thing now and well that's just that's just shit all over my fucking cat box

no i love the cat box i would buy the cat box before a cereal don't worry i remember drawing like a big like i painted like no dogs allowed on the side of it that is adorable i want one right i want one i want a cat box and don't change the name don't change the name cat box is perfect why would i but um anyway sorry to hear about luke's failed invention slash successful invention i know they were like they're like so bitter but also proud because they're like, well, apparently it was a good idea, but we should have done something about it. Speaking of which, kind of in the same vein, do you know what I was so fucking jealous about all my childhood were those people who got the Pringles cases that were like glittery blue or glittery purple. Oh, that can take like their own

thing that were washable. It was meant for Pringles specifically. Why do they get that? I didn't get one. And the ones that have like the, like I think one literally said wonder bread on it, but it was like the sandwich plastic container. Specifically for that. Yeah.

I sat there with my sandwich and a goddamn Ziploc just dented to shit. Basically a pancake. And then all my friends around me had their like little like Tupperwares. And I was like, sons of, I remember telling my mom, I was like, you're missing out on really making me look popular, mom. And she was like, you'll get over it. That glitter Pringles paste, that glitter. And look, we're not over it. So she, she said, you'll get over it. And then she forgot that one day I'd have a career where a microphone was put in my face. She forgot. Yeah. Reminder of all of her failures as a parent.

By the way, thanks for the purple Game Boy, Matt, Mom. Can you imagine, though, we're going to have kids someday and they're going to be like, I want a glittery box for all my TikToks. And we're like, no, you don't get a TikTok box. And they're like, but all my friends have a cool glitter TikTok box. A TikTok box? I don't even know what that is.

Listen, honestly, if my mom's biggest failure is that I never got my Pringles case, then I guess she's an okay mom. I know. If that was the trauma of our childhood, then. I'm so mad. I'm still so mad. Okay. Anyway, moving on. I'll say things like that to my mom. She's like, oh, so we're not going to talk about like all the things that actually were terrible, like the divorce and all these things. I'm like, no, no, no. I'm more concerned about my Pringles cup and she's like i guess that's good it's like i live on top of a fucking cemetery mom can i just have my sandwich case give me one goddamn thing thank you thank you okay anyway so he had the science fair he was very excited about the science fair as i'm

sure both of us probably would have been slash were. If I find out he made a fucking cat box, I'm going to lose it. And he made millions. No. So it was June 4th, 2010. She took Terry, the stepmom, took Kyron to school. And the science fair was happening that morning. And Kyron's exhibit was on red-eyed tree frogs.

And it was really precious and he was seven years old and he had this adorable poster with like tree frogs and stuff and a whole exhibit on it um and it was sort of an open house kind of day where parents could come in and out and school wouldn't officially start until 10 a.m so classes weren't necessarily happening yet uh Terry took a photo of Kyron in front of his tree frog poster. And we'll show a picture of that on the YouTube if you want to see it. Or you can just Google it. And she left soon after that around 8.45 a.m. So according to Terry, the last time she saw Kyron, he was walking toward his classroom.

She ran errands that day at two different Fred Meyer grocery stores until about 10, 10 a.m. And between then and 11, 39 a.m., Terry drove her young daughter, Kiara, around town in an attempt to use the motion of the car to soothe her earache because she wasn't sleeping. Yeah. So she then said that once she had gotten her daughter home and to bed, that she went to a local gym, worked out until about 1240. And then by 121 p.m., she had arrived home and posted photos of Kyron at the science fair on Facebook. So later that day at 330, Terry Kane, so Kyron's dad, and their daughter Kiara walked to the bus stop to meet Kyron to pick him up. When the bus arrived, though, the driver told them that Kyron had not boarded the bus after school that day. So Terry called the school only to be informed by the school secretary that as far as anyone there knew, Kyron had not been at school at all since the science fair,

and he had actually been marked absent so realizing that Kyron was missing the secretary then called 9-1-1 and soon after an automated message went out to the entire school district announcing that Kyron hadn't returned home from school that day a search immediately took place focusing mostly on a two mile radius around the elementary school and on Savi Island which is about six miles away. And according to those who knew him, he would never walk out of school. So some people were saying like, maybe he just kind of wandered off after the science fair. They did question parents immediately after this. And the they questioned the adults, obviously, right away, especially Terry, because she's the one who had brought him to school and had, for all intents and purposes, been the last person to see him.

And meanwhile, Desiree, so Kyron's mom, who lives a couple hours away, and her husband raced up to Portland. And Desiree called Terry, the stepmom, to let her know, like, hey, we're coming up to Portland. And apparently, Terry responded, oh, you are? hey, we're coming up to Portland. And apparently Terry responded, oh, you are? And Desiree was like, yeah, of course I am. My literal child is missing. But thank you for acting in such a weird. Yeah, why would you act like that?

Like super like taken aback almost. And so Desiree was like, I was really weirded out by that. But I was like, of course I'm fucking coming. Like my child is missing. Right. So now all four parents are together. So both parents had remarried and all step parents are there as well. So on the local news, they all appear devastated.

But Terry is like, you can see this. It's really weird. She's like grabbing onto Desiree and like holding her arm. Stepmom is to like Kyron's mom holding her arm. And the newscaster is like commenting like, look at the strange body language between the mother and stepmother. So it's just like a weird, awkward scenario from the start. And like I said, investigators are starting by looking into the parents, which makes sense. And they start with these lie detector tests.

So everyone's obviously agreeing to take a lie detector because their kid is missing. And that is until they get to Terry. So they tell Terry to take a lie detector test. First of all, she's very hesitant about participating in this. And when she finally does, when they ask her about the day karen went missing she claims she saw a stranger at the school during the science fair uh somebody she said she didn't recognize uh but they said can you describe this person and she could not describe them and also like nobody else at the school noticed a weird adult hanging around

besides her i guess uh nobody else right and you'd think like other parents would have seen if there was like a sketchy person well also i mean i don't know about other schools or what school they went to but like at my school like all the parents kind of knew each other so it'd be like um like if you saw someone that you didn't recognize it would they'd be out of place. Like other people would have noticed it, right? Yeah. And that's like, I think it would have made comments of like, oh, who's that? Yeah. And I think honestly, like a bigger school, I can see the other argument too, where it's like

that you wouldn't know every parent. So why would you say I saw someone I didn't recognize? Right. If like you don't know everybody, you don't know everybody's parents it just seems like a strange thing to say i saw someone everyone was a strange person i didn't know so how would that person stand out differently exactly so that was a little weird especially because then they said well who was it like describe them and she couldn't so it was just a strange uh note that that was the first thing she said on the lie detector test um the police asked her to recount the day and she said on the lie detector test. The police asked her to recount the day, and she gave this timeline that I explained earlier of going to Fred Meyers and going to the gym and driving Kiara around.

Interestingly enough, an acquaintance of Terry's, who was interviewed later on the news, said she passed Terry at one of the Fred Meyers locations, and it was like they were just acquaintances. They weren't friends. But like she had passed her and Terry was kind of like, hey, and like stopped her. And the lady was like, it was kind of weird. She insisted on showing me photos of Kyron at the science fair from that morning.

Ew, for like an alibi. Yeah, right? Like that's sketchy, I think. And the woman was like like i don't really even know her that well it was very weird she like kind of forcefully like showed me photos on her phone of of kyron i guess she could have argued like oh i'm just a mom proud of my kid so proud right like i've had people like in the middle of a store be like look at this and it's like okay thank you look at my child's cat box it It's so beautiful. But then usually I could like slowly

back away. Like my mother probably would chase those people and be like, you're not looking at the disco ball. So, but have you seen, have you seen the motion sensing lights? Yeah, but that's true. And I feel like usually you would know that that's that person. Like you would know like, oh God, here comes Janet. She's always going to show me pictures of her child's latest invention or of the pictures of her cat or whatever it may be. Sorry, I'm pouring more wine. You're good. Or whatever that may be. But like this was not a scenario where that lady – basically this lady was like, I don't know what was going on, but it was really weird.

She stopped me and like forced me to look at these photos. So it wasn't in her character if that makes sense like it wasn't expected behavior of hers it was just very strange um and then I mean to me the posting it on Facebook is also a little weird which I know a lot of parents post things on Facebook but just to like show them at the store then immediately go home and post them on the internet the day it's like the only proof she has she wants to make sure it's spread everywhere yes and like i mean spoiler alert later she was interviewed on dr phil and she said something like well there's my infamous photo that's gone famous or something and it's like the photo it's just really off-putting i don't know i mean maybe i mean i'm definitely biased but it's just a little bit weird so i'll put that out there um she said it felt odd and forced and what have you so uh what's worse is that terry's cell

phone records also didn't match up with her own timeline that she had given of driving around and of going to the gym and all that so it didn't even match up to begin with so she's becoming pretty damn suspicious uh in the eyes of the police both uh investigators and kyron's mom desiree and her husband are like what the hell is up with uh terry like something is going on she is involved somehow we're sure of it so terry uh this is not directly related to this case but she did have a criminal record so she had been arrested for drunk driving a few years prior and because she had had her son in the car she had had to plead guilty to reckless endangerment um not necessarily related but also just not a great look on her part

um additionally when they interviewed people at the science fair who were at the school multiple adult witnesses separate from each other claim to have seen terry leaving the side entrance of the school with kyron okay so like not children like you know adults separately from each other uh saw her leaving with kyron okay um even kyron's friend who was a kid said he saw his friend kyron out in the parking lot with his stepmom, Terry. So there are multiple people who are witnessing her. Even though she's saying, I saw a stranger at the school, they're all saying, we saw you at the school with Kyron. Okay, got it.

So that storyline is kind of out the window at this point. Yeah. As far as I'm concerned, I think it is. Unless she's really trying to the like maybe this random person followed them out to the lot or sure yeah maybe exactly um that's a good point too so a few people suggested that kyron ran away but like i said that was not in his nature um according to desiree his mom quote kyron does not have very good eyes he can't see so he's not going to wander around he's also very shy and doesn't trust people right away that That's just not his style. I know that was a timid child. Yeah,

I know that was a theory from the very beginning, but that's not Kyren. He wouldn't do that. He's a pretty shy, timid child. He has a great wit and a sense of humor, but he doesn't show it very often to people he doesn't know. He doesn't trust strangers. He prefers to be around his family. he doesn't trust strangers he prefer he prefers to be around his family so again not proof that he didn't go anywhere but it does add to kind of the fact of the story um and two facts that we do have uh is that terry failed both of her polygraph tests so not a good look not cute not cute terry terry that does not look good on you um the first test she took not cute not cute at all the first test she took she blamed again she's on dr phil and i watched these clips and i will reference them again later but on dr phil when asked about the polygraph the first test she blamed that she is practically deaf in one ear she says and because she couldn't

see the facial expressions of the person asking the questions she blamed she didn't know how to answer them which i was like isn't that the point is that you don't see the person like you're just i don't see why you would have to see the person's face she said i need to see their facial expressions to understand the questions but that doesn't make much sense to me personally um i don't understand needing to like read their lips if you're really that hard of hearing yeah and it didn't seem to be that itself right and it didn't seem to be that also imagine if you're if if you're a polygraph examiner aren't you like pretty flat line like face wise?

That's exactly. That's why, yeah, I wrote like, isn't that the point? Like that you don't see emotion in that. Like the point is not, exactly, is not that you're like being yelled at by somebody or being like sweet talked by somebody. It's like supposed to be really flat. So I thought that was strange that you would need to see their emotion to understand the question, which I thought didn't make a whole lot of sense.

Like no one's laughing, Terry. No one's laughing but you. So the second test, she blamed the administrator of the test saying they just didn't do a good job. And that's why she failed. So she's going 0 for 2 here on these tests. And she's extremely defensive from the start of the investigation. And remember, like, she's raising this child. This is, like, basically her son.

You know, she's been raising him since he was little. So it's just very weird that suddenly she wants nothing to do with the investigation. She thinks everyone is invading her privacy by asking all these questions. And they're like, we're literally, all three other parents are like, we will give you everything to try and find him. And she's just holding off, which is a little weird. So on June 12th, around 300 trained rescuers were on the ground searching wooded areas near Skyline Elementary. The search for Kyron spanned over 10 days, and it was the largest oregon history and included over 1300 searchers from oregon washington and california and while the search is going on this is a week after he went missing terry is like fucking living her own damn grand

life and by that i mean while everyone is out searching for kyron she is having this full-blown sexting affair with one of her husband's friends from high school um so her husband Kane so Kyron's dad had this like old friend from high school and I guess she and he and her whatever they started linked up they linked they linked up. They linked up. They linked up on LinkedIn. No, not on LinkedIn. Oh, my God. I'm just kidding. On Pinterest? No, I don't know. They linked up and she was like sending nudes. And okay, this is probably, I mean, I'm just going to put this out there. This is probably the most cringeworthy, horrific part of the story is watching Dr. Phil read these sexts on air.

It's like I was ready to pull my hair out. So I'm going to tell you some of the ones that Dr. Phil read. So here we go. Imagine him. Imagine. I intend to. Okay. Tell Jason Statham I am available for whatever.

I will pin you down and sit on you. Christine as Dr. Phil as a sexy woman is crazy. Is crazy. Oh my God. I will pin you down and sit on you. Insert evil grin with latex. So I don't even know what that means so it's painful it's literally if you thought that was painful go listen to the original dr phil reading them

because he reads a lot and they go on for like a full three minutes and it's mortifying um and it ends with him saying give me 15 minutes and i'll make you moan which i'm like shocked somebody hasn't turned that Dr. Phil clip into something but um it happened someone's about to don't you worry it's about to it might be me it's probably gonna be you so this is all going on with her and this guy her husband's friend from high school meanwhile let's remember this is a week away from her stepson being missing and like she was the last person to see him. So several weeks after Kyron disappeared, Kane moved out of the house he shared with Terry.

First of all, I don't blame him. This sounds like a shit show. But we realize pretty quickly the reason he moved out is not even because of those like sexy Jason Statham texts. It's for a whole different reason. Because Dr. Phil talked about him. I know. I see. He's haunted by Dr. Phil.

Who is it? Impersonating his wife. Who is it? Exactly. So it's not even because of the sexy texts. It's because police released later information saying that Kane had actually gotten information released later information saying that kane had actually gotten information indicating that the family's landscaper came forward and claimed that terry had offered him a lot of money to kill her husband five months before kyron's disappearance oh and then the land okay sure so the landscaper

then like told him and was like dude this is what she fucking asked me to do so the landscaper told police and was like i don't know what is going on but this is what she told me five months ago so then police went to kane and were like hey by the way this is what we just learned and kane was like i'm out of here and he that's a nice courtesy call from the cops because like i don't even know if i would have gotten that i feel well i think they were just trying to investigate. So they were like, well, maybe this is something we can like, you know, like they I think they used it as like, hey, do you know anything about this? Like, we're trying to figure out where your son is. I see. There's clearly trouble in the marriage.

And Kane was like, there is. And they were like, yeah, there is. That makes more sense. I see. Uh huh. So, I mean, it's again, this was never fully confirmed. I will say that. But it's not a good look.

And it seems weird, again, that somebody would come forward and say this. Not cute, Terry. Not cute, Terry. And for what, okay, whatever happened, whatever info Kane got, it was enough to convince him to move out. And he got full legal custody of their daughter. Wow. So it was enough, whatever he had there, whatever info, it was enough for the him to move out and he got a full legal custody of their daughter so it was enough whatever he had there whatever info it was enough for the courts to say yeah you're gonna get full custody of your daughter which is a hard battle to win especially as a father right i was

gonna say especially as a dad yeah so we don't know for sure whether that happened but it's another not cute look um it wasn't until years later too that we found out terry had actually been implicated in another murder for hire plot back in 1990 uh when she was 20 years old her boyfriend at the time 18 year old sean ray said he and terry were eating chinese food in the park when a strange man ran out of the bushes with a gun and terry shouted to, he's here for you. What? Hold up. I know. It's just so batshit crazy.

That makes no, okay. Okay. Sure. Just move on. I don't know what to say to that. I don't know how to react. So wait, was she saying that to the man just running out of there with a gun? She was saying that to her boyfriend saying like, he's here for you when this guy that's even worse i thought she was screaming nonsense at a nonsensical person

and then the boyfriend's just sitting there with his like fucking chicken fried rice being like chicken fried rice but yeah but the scenario is that this guy's running out with a gun and terry says to him this guy's here for you and i guess he like freaked out and the guy ran away and then it never was reported which is interesting because what happened was the police went to him after this whole um landscaper situation the police went to him from 20 years earlier and said like hey um we want to ask you about this and he's like but I never reported that. And they said, oh, well, somebody in prison, I guess, mentioned being involved.

And that's how we know about it. So it wasn't even like this guy just stepped forward and was like, I have some other gossip that's part of the case. Like the police got this from another source, which also makes it a little more telling. It's like she's lucked out by not having to explain herself so many times. And now it's all collapsing on her. Yeah. And now she's ined out by not having to explain herself so many times and now it's all

collapsing on her yeah and now she's in the center of all of it exactly so it's all coming out at this point um it's also right around this point uh that that kane says publicly i think my wife uh had something to do with my son's disappearance. So whatever's going on, he's convinced enough at this point that she's involved. So on Dr. Phil, there was a, there was a lot going on, but also there was a list of Desiree and Kane's accusations against Terry.

So here are the, some of the things that they had brought up saying like, this is why we think she's involved. So she had written emails to her friends saying she hated Kyron, AKA her stepson. She blamed her own marital problems with Kane on Kyron. She had asked Desiree to take custody back of Kyron. She made Kyron's disappearance all about her.

She got her hair done, put on makeup, and went to the gym after his disappearance. She failed two polygraphs. Apparently, she was asked to do a third, and she walked out before it could even be done. Oh. So that's three in a row that didn't go well for her um and so after all of these accusations terry left town and changed her name um apparently this is weird she tried to change her name to claire sullivan which was a character from one of her favorite murder mystery novels um okay that's a little too on the nose terry i think so right and the judge was like you may not do that so instead why she's literally writing herself into the narrative of like why would you say that i'm involved in this murder mystery also call me claire she's like wearing a

red dress and a smoking a cigarette like me claire they're like you're literally not Claire stop trying to be Claire. Yeah so she tried to change her name and the court was like you may not do that. Yeah not cute Claire. Not cute Claire and so and so she instead changed her name to Terry Moulton which was her maiden name rather than Horman which was her married name. So I will also add that between now like her changing her name and the time Kyron had gone missing she had already been arrested twice so the first time was for auto theft and the second time was for stealing a gun from a roommate um a uh a boyfriend also during this time filed a restraining order against her and claimed she

had held a knife to his throat and tried to kill him. Okay. So this is just in the short period of Kyron going missing and her leaving town. Jeez. Okay. So she's definitely unstable. Something is going on with her. Right.

Whether it's like this or not or something else. And again, I got that info too from the Kendall Ray's YouTube channel. So this obviously does not mean she kidnapped her and or killed her stepson. But again, like this is not cute. Doesn't mean she didn't. Doesn't mean she didn't. Precisely. So in August of 2010, it was announced that law enforcement were searching for an individual allegedly seen by two witnesses sitting inside Terry's truck outside Skyline Elementary the day of Kyron's disappearance. So a former sheriff said, quote, the identity of that second person,

if they existed, could be critical in determining what happened to Kyron after 9 a.m. on June 4th. But nothing has come of that. Nobody's been able to pinpoint who else people have seen or people saw in her truck that day in the parking lot. Meanwhile, in July of that year, a Multnomah County grand jury subpoenaed several friends of Terry's, including a woman named DD Spiker, whom Desiree and Kane both described as having been in close communication with Terry and also providing Terry with support and advice that was not in the best interest of our son.

So essentially they're saying this lady probably knows something or was somehow involved uh we need to figure out what she knows so apparently this dd character on the day of kyron's disappearance abrupt abruptly left her workplace uh she was gardening for a homeowner in northwest portland she abruptly left even though she was scheduled to work and returned around 90 minutes later. She also allegedly helped Terry purchase an untraceable cell phone right around that same time. Okay. But law enforcement said at the time she was extremely cooperative.

She allowed a search of her property and her car. She endured three hours of questioning. She also told journalists, journalists, there's this horror that my friend is going through if i thought for a second that she was capable of foul play i would not have been there she would not have been my friend in the first place so this same year kyron's mother desiree files a civil lawsuit against terry because she's like well criminally she's not being charged with anything why don't i file a death lawsuit against terry um saying you know he's she's responsible for the disappearance of

kairin so she sought 10 million dollars in damages and dd was asked to be part of this questioning and interestingly even though she was so cooperative before suddenly dd refused to answer 142 questions during a deposition okay well yeah um among these questions were ones regarding her own whereabouts that day and her contact with terry she also declined to identify a photo of kyron whether she had ever met him before or not and whether she knew his father came so she just was totally just zipped zipped total like plead the fifth like i'm not gonna say a damn word uh-huh which again is your right but also not cute dd not cute dd so uh during testimony provided by kane uh in a separate hearing he stated that police told him they have more probable cause to think terry was involved than they did two years ago um it was also announced that so desiree in 2013 actually dropped the lawsuit against terry because it turns out she like that lawsuit was

kind of interfering with police actually looking into the case so she dropped the lawsuit for now and was like okay fine like i'll let the police try and solve this. Right. And then we'll get back to potentially bringing the lawsuit back up. Right. So the problem here is that even though all of this is so not cute, there is no real proof. They have not even found Kyron at this point. They have not found his body or anything.

I watched a Crime Watch Daily episode about this case. anything um i watched a crime watch daily episode about this case and desiree actually says that she thinks law enforcement were ready to charge and arrest terry because they had enough probable cause but then the casey anthony trial happened and desiree thinks the reason terry was never charged is that casey anthony was charged before they found a body and then was later acquitted so basically she thinks that police were like scared to to arrest her arrest harry without any like solid you know a body or anything and then have it go the opposite like go wrong and have her be released yes got it so she thinks for lack of a better term they like kind of chickened out of like going forward with arresting her, which is a bummer. Sorry, I just scrolled too far.

Yeah. So she said suddenly her team started pulling back on the prosecution side of the case. And in that same interview, Desiree also said she wants to know who the hell Terry has been talking to, what she's been saying. And she wants to bring her to justice because she is really convinced that Terry is involved somehow. And she says she needs the help of the public. So she says, just tell us no matter how bad it is, just tell us and end this

roller coaster that we are on every single day. So this past June, so this past month, marked the 10 year anniversary of Kyron's disappearance. His mom told reporters how dismayed she was that they were basically in the exact same position as they were 10 years ago, which must just be so frustrating. In May of this year, in 2020, a book titled Boy Missing, The Search for Kyron Horman was released.

And this book claims that Kyron's regular bus driver, along with a classmate and two family members, witnessed Kyron walk through the school parking lot with Terry and her infant daughter that day on June 4th, 2010. According to KGWA News, the book also included some like strange and like potentially chilling details, in my opinion, that I hadn't read anywhere else. Like the fact that Terry washed Kyron and pack and backpack the day he disappeared which was not a thing that normally happened uh just strange um the book also claims that items terry had allegedly bought at fred meyer that day including like a bottle of motrin none of them were ever found so there's like no proof that she actually bought anything at these stores okay except to show that lady a picture of her stepson i guess right um the book also raised questions about an

unexplained injury on terry horman's leg that i also had never heard about which was like this gash below her knee um which horman said she dropped a weight on her leg at the gym but there was never any like further investigation or or explanation of that injury okay so this september kyron's mom desiree is releasing a book called love you forever the search for kyron horman which uh will be released by his birthday in september she said the money she receives from the book will be donated to a missing children's non-profit and yeah that was really sweet and touching um and she actually described the last day she saw kyron and it's like really heart-wrenching but i'm gonna read it she said the last day i saw

kyron was actually two weeks prior to june 4th he was going to his father and stepmother's house but he didn't want to go back he wanted to stay with me it was an emotional exchange he had to actually be talked into going back i tried to talk to him a little bit about what was going on but he was not very forthcoming about what was upsetting him i even talked to his father about it but i was dismissed and told i was just overreacting it was really upsetting and it was the last exchange i had with him but he knew that i loved him and that i was trying everything i could to remedy the situation within my power so she's lived with a lot of guilt, is what she's explained, like just of, you know, being far away, not being healthy enough to take care of him,

not being able to get herself involved before something happened. If he is still alive, Karen would be 17 years old today. There's an age regressed photo. So if you have any information on Karen's case, please call the tip line at 1-503-988-0560 or 1-800-THE-LOST and there is a reward out there if you if that's the thing that drives you to find missing children i guess sure but um if you do know anything at all uh feel free feel free to call. And, um, on that note, I also wanted to point out an organization that I discovered while watching Kendall Ray's coverage of this case and her merch proceeds were going to an organization called Thorn. Have you heard about this?

No. So apparently it was co-founded by Ashton Kutcher. Uh, and basically this organization builds software to fight human trafficking and the sexual exploitation of children yes I didn't know it was called thorn yeah I had heard of it vaguely too and I didn't really know the details um but he had like he like spoke in front of congress and everything um so he's been doing some pretty amazing stuff yeah he's like fucking killing it out there honestly um so apparently reports of according to their website reports of child sexual abuse material online have increased

10 000 since 2004 and that's just the nature of the internet and all that um the organization's goal is to eliminate child sexual abuse from the internet um and again i know this isn't necessarily directly related but, you know, it does have to do with missing children. And so I thought it was relevant. And this is something you can do if you feel so inclined. If you go to their website, thorn, T-H-O-R-N.org, you can watch a TED Talk about eliminating child sexual abuse from the internet and see what you can do to help. Gotcha. So that is the story of Kyle Horman. And hopefully there are some answers because it's been a long time. Wow. Well, yikes. And that's also an episode of

Unsolved Mysteries. That is not. That's just me finding unsolved stories that I was interested in. I see. Okay. I was like, can I see it there? No, but I can see it other places. Got it. Other places. Well, cool. I mean, not cool. Wow. I never know how to end these. It's because I say awful things and then go, anyway, take it away. And you're like, I don't want to, though.

So I'm like, here I go juggling. That's my fault. That's OK. Also, I like your decor right now where you have a whole cart and only one item on the cart. It's one item. Guess what it is, everyone? The most valuable item. It is a bottle of wine surrounded, adorned by lemon lights. Adorned.

By a string of lemon lights. By the way, Lemon says hi. Don't say that. I'm going to cry. He says a whole lot of nothing because I don't check on him. Anyway, in case for those of you who don't know, Lemon is still in la with me don't worry too much of a city guy i'm handling it don't worry well when i hope i could see you again soon it's been like a hot month i know well i was gonna fly back like pretty soon after and then like everything shut down again and i was like okay i guess this is not safe right now. So I'm, I'm holding off until, uh, we figure out if, when I'm safe to fly. So in due time, well, uh, we, um, I just miss you. That's all. I miss you too. I miss you too. We should FaceTime later. Not that we've talked enough, not enough today.

So, well, every time that I sit here, I think about the first time that I sat here and it was with you and then we went to cheesecake. So every time an episode ends, I'm like, oh man, I'm so close to cheesecake right now. Why am I craving cheesecake? Yeah. Oh, it's becoming a thing. Okay. Anyway, I love you.

I love everyone listening. I love lemon. Live, laugh, lemon. Thank you for episode 181 or 182. You can check out other stuff from us on our socials at ATWWD podcast or our website. And that's what you drink dot com where you can also submit your listener stories for our listener episode, which we put out on the first of every month. That's it, I guess. Right.

That's it. Listen, we're people of simple, simple means and backgrounds and stories. We also have our Thursday Instagram lives every week. It's our happy hours from 3 p.m. Pacific to 4, or it's just for an hour starting at 3 Pacific slash 6 Eastern. Yes. And then I also have Marvel Mondays every Monday at 5, 8, and you have your YouTube channel.

Oh, I finally released an episode for the first time in a long time. So they're back. And I'm releasing another one today. So I'm trying to get back to weekly creeps. So we'll see if that actually sticks. And our Patreon videos too. Yes. At HWW Podcast.

A lot of weirdness going on. Anyway. All right. Thanks for all this and nothing at all all at once christine how beautiful how beautiful you're welcome i love you and that's why we drink i love you too