And That's Why We Drink - E188 A Ouija Board Lemon and Poetized Martinis

Episode Date: September 13, 2020

So cute, so fun, so demonic! Episode 188 is a big one because we've got a new lemon to introduce you to... it may or may not have followed Eva home after we used Christine's homemade ouija board and wine glass planchette. Em also kicks off spooky season with the Legend of Sleepy Hollow! Then Christine covers the unsolved disappearance of Josh Guimond which involves a scent dog with the incredible name Hoover von Vacuum. We may have also made lunch our bitch... and that's why we drink! Please consider supporting the companies that support us! Go to nativedeo.com/drink or use promo code DRINK at checkout for 20% off your first order! Get a 4-week trial PLUS free postage AND a digital scale when you go to Stamps.com, click on the Microphone at the TOP of the homepage and type in DRINKUse coupon code DRINK for $10 off your first box at www.fabfitfun.com Go to HelloFresh.com/80drink and use code 80drink to get a total of $80 off your first month, including free shipping on your first box!Get 20% off your Amazon Smart Lighting Bundle, only at Amazon.com/DRINK

hello everybody welcome welcome um fun fact besides like all the fun facts we just relayed you get a bonus one today which is that yesterday we did a ouija board yeah this is why we're so like all of a sudden anti-christ because the Ouija board is like showing up within us. Yeah, we've been playing with the devil. Here's the problem. We went to the NSY drink apartment with Eva, brought some wine, and we were hanging out

and I had made a Ouija board, which I think you mentioned on a previous episode. And, um, because I couldn't find one anywhere. And then Eva came over and be like, eva or like let's play ouija board that was me not i was finally outnumbered that was anybody else and then eva goes i've never done one before and i went oh shit on the fucking ouija board yeah and then we we played for a while and we got a few people that came through we also did it was a

complete makeshift like our planchette was the like a cutout bottom of a water bottle. It was a wine glass for a while. Redneck engineering. I needed the wine glass. So then we needed to come up with a new. Oh, and then later on, Eva wasn't even there for this. But I started. I went to go fill my water bottle and I stood there for like a solid 45 seconds until I looked down and realized we had cut the bottom off. That was pretty stupid.

Anyway. We update. Sorry, I'm eating Irish tonight. You you go you go very um good sound wise anyway yeah so we do we do board and a couple there were 10 spirits apparently that came through apparently one followed me from cincinnati one followed eva home well right so one followed me from cincinnati which i didn't love and then today we got a text from eva saying hey i have a story and i was like like, oh boy, here we go. What did we do to poor Eva? We ruined her.

And yeah, so Eva, can we share your story? Okay, I'm going to do it anyway. Good, because we were going to do it. Okay, excellent. I feel like at this point, she knows anything she says will be broadcast. We should, we should. Eva, can you bring your little friend in?

No? So let me tell the story. Okay. What? Okay, so god damn it okay so and why don't you tell what happened okay why something has something about to happen no okay uh i just you're uh you're the ghost expert i want you to explain oh aha well the expert between the two of us yes sure uh listen so they're they're so okay so eva felt like something was following her all the way home and she was like it's really weird because i feel like there's something i feel like i'm at peace even though i should feel really uncomfortable because we just played which doesn't seem fair for a ghost to be like i'm

following you but like you're not allowed to be stressed about it right so she felt something uh even all the way till she got to bed. And then when she got to bed, there was a cat toy on the floor next to her and the tag on it was moving by itself. Yeah, it was kind of like waving around and there wasn't like a breeze. There wasn't a draft or anything that would have caused it. And she said much like all the stories she reads in like the listener episodes, she just turned around and went to sleep and it didn't bother her.

Yeah, finally she's one of those people where we're like, how did you? What? How did you go? How did you just fall asleep asleep like i would be up all night yeah but apparently there was like this weird wave of calm over her which is said to happen a lot yes and then she woke up to pee in the middle of the night and um her kitty cat was laying on top of the toy yeah it's like staring guarding very intensely looking at her like someone tried to steal this i don't know and then she woke up uh the next morning and she was in her kitchen and she stepped on something she's pouring water yeah

and she's like i stepped on something and i looked down bet to pick it up i see it even didn't need to bring it because you already had it look at this okay well i kind of ruined the bag i'm sorry but even pulls this out of her tote bag and she she was like, this was on the floor that I stepped on last night. This, my friends, is a mummified lemon. Yeah. I mean, what? So now we have two. And by the way, she was like, I cleaned out from under my fridge recently.

So it's not like she didn't think it came from under the fridge. So who knows where this came from? But it's a mummified lemon that she stepped on in the middle of her kitchen after weird activity and after we forced her to do a Ouija board so oops lemon's a daddy apparently we always knew that we always knew he was he had a way with the other citruses lemon lemon's a gentle them so a gentle them yes so anyway now we've now there's a baby lemon now there's a baby lemon now you've got one to bring home while I keep real lemon yeah you better actually even I was like maybe you should check on real lemon and make sure

like. Real lemon's fine. Like what was going to happen? What? It's like a rock. You said maybe Chef Boyardee'd all the way from. I said that one probably Chef Boyardee'd all the way from Cincinnati. It could be.

Rolled the whole way here. Well, what was I going to say? I don't know. I'm just kind of taken aback by the fact that there's two of them now. But also like since we have the other one in like in the glass case now that one should have like a tiny glass it's like a golf ball size glass case lemon isn't a golf ball size case this one needs like a paintball or something like a like a ping pong ball i don't know that's not even that much smaller huh a jelly bean case yeah that you know buy one on amazon like a

momified lemon case you get it yeah right why don't we just go straight to the source i don't understand in any case this is what's happening currently when i come to visit i just decide everyone needs to play with my homemade ouija board and then i leave probably is like more enticing to the devil of like oh this isn't the legit thing this is like the weird knockoff version we could really fuck with that doesn't even have numbers and has like weird drawings of like wine on it yeah one of them just kept saying goodbye every time we tried to talk it was you just go goodbye like i'm fucking done here and then we were like let's do it again like we really were probably breaking the rules but we did find one guy out here um who uh he seemed like he felt like he was kind of like an older dude yeah his name was tom smart he was a

uh an engineer in the army during world war ii and then he ended up uh he was from oklahoma but he moved out here afterwards to because his wife beatrice had family out here and we even said like oh like what do you think of beatrice is she like super pretty and it like went yes so yeah got the hots for beatrice and apparently they're buried out here somewhere no one visits them and so i was like oh we'll tell us where you are we'll go visit you and then we almost got we kind of got like a half answer it said park and then i i like went off on a tangent and i think i like led myself down the wrong path but it's a park somewhere when we asked what park didn't we get the word mine or something like his own fucking park mine maybe like a mine like a coal

mine oh i don't know who knows anyway so we did that and we also talked to one of the ghosts from christine's very old haunted house yeah and it was like i like had this sinking feeling because i'd researched the history of the house and there was this one kid who had been born in like a certain year in the late 19th century in my house and was like a teenager and was mentioned in some sources and all of a sudden there was this teenager and it started to spell like my like my hometown and em was like did you come with christine and it like shot to yes and i was like oh no yeah and apparently like has played with geo geo does geo doesn't like him yeah he's like i tried to play with you but he like wasn't interested or something and then he doesn't like juniper he does

not like juniper right but he said he likes me which m always asks and i'm like can you imagine if it says no i apologized i went are you happy with like chrissy and blaze living in your old house and said yes so yes so hopefully he's just not being polite but um so that was weird and then i went back and we asked how many siblings and we went back and found out it like matched and the year matched and the date matches really strange. Yeah. But anyway, he's the only reason I'm not getting more information is because I don't want to reverse triangulate.

Also, he specifically requested that we like he didn't want us to know his name or anything. True. We ended up finding out his name. We broke that rule, too. We made it clear that we didn't want him to. Oh, yeah. And he was up finding out his name. Oops, we broke that rule too. We made it clear that we didn't want him to. Oh, yeah. He was a very private guy. He kept saying Royal Air Force.

And then it turns out like I'd forgotten his dad was from England. And so like that freaked me out. I don't know. The whole thing was weird. Anyway. Anyway. It was weird. These are our ramblings.

Welcome. Welcome. This is the new Bible. This is the new New Testament. Correct. Yeah. The newer Testament. The newest Testament. The newest. welcome this is the new bible this is uh the new new testament correct yeah the newer testament the newest testament the newest because i don't want anyone to make a newer newest so we're the newest yeah the final testament let's call it the final test doesn't sound dark and ominous it sounds like a horror movie anyway anyway here's my story of of please of late as of late

so i'm this is one of those things where like if you're on a car road trip sorry about the sirens because you probably might well if you're on a road trip sorry exactly like a siren oh there's some fire trucks coming in hot all right well if you are on a road trip good because this is a long one so god these damn sirens they do have a way of just echoing right into the i mean i guess the point is they need to be loud i guess that's kind of the idea can you turn it down yeah that's not you're really inconveniencing me so i'm trying to record a podcast okay i think we're good okay okay so if you are on a road trip right now good because this is gonna be a long one but it's a it trip right now, good, because this is going to be a long one.

But it's well worth it, I think. I'm fortunate that I'm not on a road trip right now. Pretend. I guess I'll sit through it. You're sitting like you are in a car. So you're doing nothing different. I'm complaining about sirens. Yeah. Okay, so a few people requested this a while ago, and I almost did it for one of my New York live shows.

Oh! But it was so much information i got overwhelmed so took a while but here we are um so this is the story of uh sleepy hollow what the legend of sleepy hollow which i thought was interesting a lot of people wanted me to cover it but i didn't know why because it felt like i was just going to be doing notes on like everyone's school play because it felt like i was just going to be doing notes on like everyone's school play like it felt like a like everyone already kind of knows the story it's a cartoon movie too right yeah an animated movie so i was like everyone already kind of knows this isn't i guess but everyone wanted to hear it i don't really know it i don't think

well i don't remember the whole first half of this is me just doing the history of the legend of Sleepy Hollow and the author, Washington Irving. So I was thinking, like, how do I make it different? I guess the origin of Sleepy Hollow is something people don't really know. And I realized that I didn't actually remember entirely the whole Sleepy Hollow story. I certainly don't. I think everyone has, like, a little patch of memory from like second grade and then like forgot about it. Unless you live in Sleepy Hollow. So I'm sure you hear about it all the fucking time.

So this is the story. And also this year is the bicentennial of the Sleepy Hollow story. How fitting. So I will start out with some fun facts. So the first time it was seen on TV or like as a movie it was a 1922 silent film and then it went on to have many more adaptations um including the 1949 disney short and then in 1999 there was a tim burton movie starring johnny depp and christina ricci which by the way won an oscar for the best art direction and had a box office uh they made like 207 million dollars jesus then

and i think the most recent one is in 2013 um sleepy hollow had its own fox series and they the headless horseman they wrote the storyline as if the headless horseman was one of the four horsemen of the apocalypse oh that's fun fun twist so cute so fun so demonic so the uh so sleepy hollow was written by washington irving um who was also best known for another story called rip van winkle and he's considered one of the first great american writers um and so after he wrote both these stories he wrote sleepy hollow second andy Hollow came out, he became like this massive literature celebrity. He apparently was one of the inspirations for Edgar Allen Poe. He was friends with like the president at the time.

He was friends with Charles Dickens. Like everyone wanted to know this guy. And the legend of Sleepy hollow was significant at the time. Um, because this was, it came out in the early 19th century and a lot of sources liked to include this. So I'm also going to include this, that apparently at the time, this story was super important because America was having a, like this inferiority complex basically with Europe because now that they were their own country, they felt like they had this, they were living under the shadow of Europe who had like culture and knowledge behind them and their own kind of.

Like an Eiffel Tower. We didn't have one yet in Vegas. We didn't have one. And so. Only a matter of time before we copied everything basically we and we were feeling super insecure of like you know europe's you know got a history to them and all this and we don't really know what's gonna come out did we act out is that what we did so a lot of people uh not act didn't act out but there weren't a lot of um real writers yet to like

document the country okay because uh or at least no no one that everyone was taking super seriously because we were so new and so i guess uh washington irving decided that he was going to be one of the first people to try to write and he wanted to take from european influences so it catered to people and what they already knew right but throw like a dash of americana to it that didn't exist yet so here's a quote um from one of the sources writing in new york at the beginning of the 19th century meant writing for an audience desperate to see itself as sophisticated instead of living in a shadow desperate to see itself as sophisticated which is what this podcast is about that's a jab yeah um but it makes sense like they didn't they were like all we've got is our European past.

They were like, yay, we're our own country. Oh, shit, now what? Right. So Sleepy Hollow was basically some of the first Americana writing born from European folklore. Okay. So he took what he learned in his time. Because he had been to Europe a lot. He had lived in England.

He was in Germany for a while um but so he kind of knew spooky stories from there and then just made it an american version yeah um so apparently the folklore of the headless horseman he brought that over from europe that's apparently been a common lore since like the middle ages um sigmund freud fun fact thinks that uh society's quote historical fascination with beheading is symbolic of anxiety surrounding male castration i literally probably could have just guessed what you were gonna say cutting something important off yeah um but yeah so i thought i'd throw that in that's fun and a lot of other uh scholars have said that the headless horseman in most stories represents

a past that never dies or will continue to haunt you until further notice. Ooh, see, I like that better. That makes so much more sense. That one's creepier to me. One of the scholars said, the horseman, like the past, still seeks answers, still seeks retribution, and can't rest when we are haunted by our past. So older European traditions have uh instead of a necessarily called the headless horseman they have a wild huntsman which apparently was this

writer who was followed by the horse rider who was followed by a bunch of dogs and he would punish people for their crimes um apparently uh washington irving the author of sleepy hollow was he had probably learned this lore from his friend and mentor sir walter scott who did a translation for that story um and other headless horseman lore includes there's an irish legend called the dolehan which is basically another grim reaper who carries his head um the green the green knight and the king arthur legends the horseman that haunts the isle of mole in scotland there's a tilled huntsman in scandinavia so there's headless horsemen all over

the goddamn place just like won't leave us alone just like come on find your head already we get it so um you're obsessed with castration i get it so obsessed with yourself like who isn't at this point all of these uh combined with the uh local local lore that Washington Irving was hearing about in the town he was in, which I'm going to get to that in a second. It all kind of was a modge podge and like just created the Headless Horseman through all these different lores he'd heard. Okay. different lores he'd heard okay um and the local lore that he was hearing outside of like european headless horsemen he was hearing about this one soldier um during the american uh during the revolutionary war um who was probably a hessian soldier uh who i guess they were uh contracted by the british they one of them apparently had his head uh cannonballed off

oh dear god for a lot of better it's really unfortunate and uh that happened uh nearby where he was staying so he was living in the hudson valley region of new york right um and there were two battles at that time uh during the Revolutionary War that were pretty monumental. And one of them was the Battle of Manhattan and the Battle of White Plains. And basically in one of those battles, the Hessian soldier had his head blown off and he now was buried in a cemetery nearby. And so people would always talk about like, oh, the ghost of him, he's still looking for his head. So that is kind of the where his inspiration for. The source became at least from in local lore um so yeah it's widely believed that that soldier is buried in the old dutch churchyard

um in quote sleepy hollow um and let me see. Sorry, I lost my spot here. Okay. So the story takes, uh, the story that he ends up writing, The Legend of Sleepy Hollow takes place in the 1700s and near Tarrytown, New York. Um, and this is considered America's first ghost story. Oh, wow. So sorry. I like, I feel like I rambled in like talking circles a lot about the soldier, but there was like a lot of places he pulled inspiration from. But the thing that really like solidified it for him was the fact that he

was living in that area and was like i'm gonna write a story about this because this is the first ghostly thing i've heard in this country cool um but so the town sleepy hollow that he writes about was a fictional town inspired by where he was staying in the Hudson Valley. And he really loved its tranquility and how quiet and peaceful it was. He even said it was near the Catskills. And he even said that it had a quote witching effect on his imagination. And so basically, as I get to the story, Sleepy Hollow is known to have this weird air around it where like it's so peaceful and tranquil that everyone's kind of bewitched into like this that just gave me goose camp because

like if you think about it why would it have been named sleepy hollow unless somebody because everyone's kind of like i'm saying like unless somebody was like that's what this feels exactly place feels like so that's uh i i think he probably was there and he was like it feels eerie on its own or like it's so tranquil and quiet that like it could be like an eerie feeling so anyway he really also pulled from the town itself and so irving actually went up to um the hudson valley area at uh 15 in the 1790s and he was there to stay in the town terrytown with one of his friends um he moved there because at the time topical uh new york was dealing with a an epidemic what was it of yellow fever that's unfortunate which get ready at the time an astonishing

5 000 people had been killed in one year in philadelphia oh geez yikes wait in philadelphia in philadelphia alone and so holy crap and so then it was about to go to i guess it was spreading it was getting to new york and so a lot of people in new york if they could afford it they were fleeing before anything else i don't blame it well it's still very yeah you're right very topical uh-huh yep so i was like okay well that's a little too on the nose boy um so and fun fact uh due to this because 5 000 people were killed in one year from yellow fever in philly alone philadelphia is uh they built the first the nation's first quarantine station oh really yeah in philadelphia yep i wonder if it's being used today i don't know i it's hopefully not because it's probably not probably not code um but yeah so anyway i saw

a quarantine an epidemic and i went oh boy uh those words you're like i see them every day i know it's like i can't escape it um so a lot of families who could they fled from their urban town and tried to move somewhere with a lot of open space. And so that happened to be the Hudson Valley. And so most people speculate because they there's a kind of a dispute of like where Sleepy Hollow itself is. Some people say, oh, it's in Tarrytown, or it's in this area, or it's in this area or it's in this area and a lot of people try to claim it for themselves like no no he was talking about our space when he mentioned oh so the town is not actually called that sleepy hollow was a fake town oh okay i was like that's so weird they named it that after feeling the air or whatever okay no no so it was like he named it that he named it he was like the hudson valley makes me feel like this but yeah so a lot of people try to claim ownership of sleepy hollow being like this is what inspired him because he stayed kind of all throughout he mainly stayed in tarrytown but he visited other areas right so a

lot of people think that he pulled inspiration from different areas but where sleepy hollow is nobody entirely knows for sure but most people say it's probably terrytown because that's where he was living um and a lot of people also argue probably the second largest argument is that sleepy hollow is actually kinderhook new york um many including president martin van buren he said that sleepy hollow is actually kinderhook because irving spent time there and based a lot of the characters about on actual people that were there. So now the argument is the town was based off of Tarrytown, but the people were based off of people in Kinderhook. Oh, my gosh. I know.

So in 1814, so I'm going to talk about, I'll just say this real quick. In the 1990s, North Tarrytown, just to end the dispute once and for all, literally changed their name to Sleepy Hollow. So there is a Sleepy Hollow now. There's officially one now because there was such a dispute. I can't believe nobody did that earlier to nab it first. So it's North Tarrytown. I don't know if that's Tarrytown or just North Tarrytown,

but they were like, okay, well, we're Sleepy Hollow. No one else has taken it? All right. Yeah. So anyway, now there is officially a Sleepy Hollow. I kind of love that love that it was very petty it's like if i were the mayor of a town that's for sure us um so in 1814 now we're going to talk about since a lot of people think that the characters were inspired from people in kinderhook um in 1814 irving actually did meet or at least uh run into in some way a real Ichabod Crane who's the main

character from really like with that name a real Ichabod Crane and apparently he's nothing like the character in the story but Washington Irving really liked the name I mean that is that you got to use that if you find someone with that kind of name you got to do something with it yeah exactly and craig was a um like a super decorated really serious military man um who like ichabod crane is not um so irving only used his name but said his personality was from a different person in kinderhook um by the way apparently uh the ichabod crane in real life when he found out that his name was used in the legend of sleepy hollow he was like ashamed because he didn't want to be associated with such a quote laughable character um meanwhile the person the person whose personality is based on ichabod crane is stoked so apparently uh his name was jesse merwin and that was one of Washington Irving's actual friends from when he lived out there.

And Jesse Merwin was a teacher in Connecticut, which Ichabod Crane also was. And their personalities just really match up. And anytime it gets mentioned, Jesse Merwin is like so excited that he's somehow associated. Or he used to. He's like 200 years old now. Okay. He still does. We can ask another theory is that ichabod was actually a different person named lieutenant samuel youngs who lived in terrytown and was friends with other people who as i get through the story it'll make

more sense but there's another family in the Legend of Sleepy Hollow called the Van Tassels. Okay. And Lieutenant Samuel Youngs was friends with the real Van Tassels. So they think, oh, maybe the real Van Tassels and the real, quote, Ichabod Crane were friends. And so there's a lot of rumors of who is who. But it's kind of understood that Jesse Merwin is the personality of them. And then there's other locations all throughout the hudson valley that are either named after portions of the story or are known to be inspiration for the story so they have a lot

of sleepy hollow pride out there um and also there's also an irvington town town called irvington after him there's a bridge called rip van winkle bridge so they've got a lot of stuff going on so irving, he lived in Tarrytown until he passed away there. He had a heart attack, and he's now buried in Sleepy Hollow Cemetery. Wow. And his home is now a museum in Tarrytown. So and obviously, that town has a lot of Halloween themed events. The most recent one is like an outdoor theatrical experience. events the most recent one is like an outdoor theatrical experience um but so he when he first got there he was apparently quote smitten with the area um and he also was obsessed with ghost stories and so he combined his two loves and made a ghost story about it and that's when he started

researching um ghost stories in the area apparently everyone only talked about the headless horseman probably because everyone had just come from europe and they were like this is the most common lore so let's start one here and there's like a beheaded soldier by the way this guy's missing his head right um so in 1817 after the war of uh 1812 he went to england and because he wanted to join a bunch of literary circles and like really perfect being a writer but he had some writer's block and he ended up talking to his brother-in-law like being like what's like what are your favorite memories growing up and so he realized that he loved when he lived in the hudson valley as a teenager so that night he like stayed up all

night and wrote this collection of stories called the sketchbook of jeffrey crayon which was his pen name apparently what and uh it was uh in 1820 it was published it was called the sketchbook by jeffrey crayon um they're like we'll put that in small font yeah in crayon and it's crayon um and uh so he hoped that no one would know about it. I think he just wanted like a raw opinion from people without his name attached to it. But one of the first people that wrote a review for him was one of his best friends in publishing named Henry Brevoort. And this is my favorite part of my notes is that apparently Henry Brevo bravort and washington irving are suspected to have been in a relationship and so there's a lot of speculation that irving was gay yeah and um to a point where when henry got married to a woman uh people have found a letter that

washington irving wrote saying uh to henry his wife, quote, completely usurped my place. Okay. And the letter he said he hopes that she may prove as constant and faithful to you as I have. So it's like a breakup letter. I have like goose cam. That's just like heartbreaking. So there's a lot of talk that they were together for. He's like, well, I'll write your book a good review, I guess.

I guess. I don't know if it happened before or after, but it was a rave review at the very least. He's like, I guess I can do one thing. And was Irving married? I don't know. I don't think so. I guess not. There's also a few, apparently, in other stories stories it's like been either implied that he was gay um like he never had any like it sounds like a lot of his stories

no one was married or anything like that i don't know it's not there's a apparently a lot of speculation i'm like no writer but i saw in a few sources when i typed in um washington irving on google like gay came up as one of the things so like i'm not the only person to have looked into it clearly um but yeah so anyway he wrote a rave review but in the review he um outed washington irving as jeffrey crayon oh so people so people found out immediately that washington irving wrote it um i tried and he was like well i was trying to be fucking like modest about it and humble but i guess people would know it's i tried and he was like well i was trying to be fucking like modest about it and humble but i guess people would know it's me now and he immediately got called the finest british

writer produced by america he's like oh i really wanted to just be super humble but i guess i'll be the greatest writer of all time mr crayon so anyway it's that's basically what happened and that is all the history of sleepyy Hollow and Washington Irving. So now I'll just tell you the story of Washington Irving. Okay, I'm going to settle in. So to start out, it's narrated by this Dutch historian. That's what they say, at least, like in the writing. It's like, oh, here's who's reading this to you,

because it's not Washington Irving or Jeffrey Crayon. Now it's Diedrich Knickerbocker. Who, by the way, did you know Washington Irving coined the term knickerbocker who by the way did you know washington irving coined the term knickerbocker really yeah how do you know what knickerbocker means aren't you like pants like underwear it's pants that's knickers i don't know if knickerbocker is a long version of that oh what does that mean then knickerbocker apparently just means a resident of new york if you live in new york what knickerbocker did everybody know this except me well there's like a hotel or something called the knickerbocker right funny if it was called like

the underpants the underpants i thought it was like the old timey pants people wore bloomers no i don't know the knicker bloomers okay anyway diedrich knickerbocker which apparently as this was written was referred as a resident of new york that's excellent so um someone in new york is like i know the fucking answer or someone's like i don't know what you're talking about but i guess we'll take it listen take it run with it take it we just told you you're called a knickerbocker put on your knickerbockers and run to new york okay by the way if you if the camera can see my fish flops god okay i was hoping that wouldn't happen um so diedrich knickerbocker says that this is a story that he heard from someone 30 years ago and like feels like this is the right time to tell it okay

um so here's first of all a a quote about the um the tranquil sleepy allure of the town so it's a very very flowery story, I did read the entire story. And I want you to know, as a reader, it was a lot of effort for me. As a reader? As someone who's not a reader. Not a reader. I was like, wait a second. It was, granted, it was probably only like 12 pages.

But that's 12 more than I'm used to reading. And it was very flowery. I did. Oh. For me, it was a feat so baby steps um but like half the half of the first page is him just describing the town of sleepy seems to be almost old literature it's like okay skip the first 16 pages i want you to feel like you're literally there so um this is a quote about the time a drowsy dreamy influence seems to hang over the land and to pervade the

very atmosphere some say that the place was bewitched and holds a spell over the minds of the good people causing them to walk and to continue to walk in continual reverie they are subject to trances and visions and frequently see strange sights however wide awake they may be before they entered that sleepy region they are sure to inhale the witching influence of the air, grow imaginative, dream dreams, and see apparitions. I just got goose game again. Don't skip the first 16 pages because this sounds lovely. So it's basically like even if you're not someone who lives there, if you're just popping in, if you're there long enough, at some point it will take over you. That's so cool and every

and i need to go there i'm like way too high strung for my own good well so it also i guess implies that um i was reading a lot of analyses on these like i was trying to read like the spark notes like like explanations but a lot of people see it as like it was almost like this town was a groundhog day where every day it's very sleepy everyone does the same things but everyone without fail is just like a believer in ghosts and every single part of the town is super haunted and everyone takes it as just fact wow and so they were all very used to like seeing everyone saw the headless horseman at one time or another everyone had a haunted moment on the bridge everyone had a haunted moment in the church like it was just like a day-to-day life yeah exactly

so um and then even if you stepped in for a day you immediately kind of got that same sense so this uh what's interesting too in one of my spark notes analyses i saw um the the fact that this that he's explaining is like this this air over you and everyone takes it in you become part of the town it was a lot of people saw it as his way of discussing the epidemic going on it was the contagion that was part of a town creepy that you couldn't escape so that was kind of interesting um and spooky yellow ones so um anyway the main character is ichabod crane um he was new to town he was from connecticut he was going to be the new school master in town um and he was known to be very authoritative with his students um he and this is a quote about him where ichabod crane i think is um i think washington

irving wanted to paint a picture of someone who's not a very good looking person oh my by society's standards okay um this is the very first introduction we get to ichabod crane he was tall but exceedingly lanky with narrow shoulders long arms and legs hands that dangled a mile out of his sleeves feet that might have served for shovels and his whole frame most loosely hung together his head was small and flat on top with huge ears large glassy eyes a long snipe nose so that it looked like a weathercock perched upon the spindle neck to tell him which way the wind blew to see him striding along the profile of a hill on a windy day with his clothes

bagging and fluttering about him one may have mistaken him for the genius of famine descending upon the earth or some scarecrow eloped from a cornfield and then jesse his friend is like i love that you talk about me in your book no wonder like like major ichabod crane is like i don't want to be lanky are you kidding me but anyway apparently he's like he's like the poster child of famine and a scarecrow and also has like a weathervane nose or something so like he's not looking hot and so so even in the Disney short, which I also watched that, I watched the full movie. Even in the Disney short, the first song that they used to describe Ichabod, they described his looks in it. And by the way, everyone in that movie is Bing Crosby.

It's voiced by Bing Crosby. Really? Like every single person except one, I think. But yeah, the first song where he's like walking into town for the first time the lyrics are who's that coming down the street are there shovels or are they feet lean and lanky skin and bone with clothes a scarecrow would hate to own ichabod what a name it kind of odd but just the same funny pants funny frame ichabod ichabod crane but here's the thing that then threw me off by the end of the song they're calling him like a fuck

boy like he's like a total ladies man what they think ross was like i gotta insert some of myself in this story yeah exactly he was like listen waltz disney this is not gonna work uh so the song is maybe 45 seconds long and they do that for a hot 30 okay and then 15 seconds later who's the town ladies man who gets around like nobody can has to be none other than ichabod ichabod really so suddenly he's a ladies man yeah but like his look doesn't change or anything it's just like oh and also he like got every lady he has a great looking like a scarecrow great personality he must have a kind heart so um the the next shot in this in the disney short by the way is his social calendar and every single thing is a different women's function it's like he's just like like batter up just like

jeez going hitting the town and going to every single like children look at this planner oh yeah what a weird angle it was like woman's potluck woman's uh i don't know rotary i don't know i don't know what they're just gonna watch the women at the rotary meeting jesus um and then uh he apparently and this goes back to just like the actual Washington Irving story but he often also would drive the younger kids or drive the younger kids home or escort them home from school if they're if they had pretty sisters or moms. So like he was a fucking little ladies man. Also like kind of a creepo. Oh yeah but I but here's the thing at the time oh he would also I want to add this real quick he would also

be less authoritative at school to the kids whose moms were good looking or were really good cooks so like even if you were like the shittiest kid if your mom knew how to throw together a pie you were all right which like if i were a teacher i'd probably be the same actually yeah it sounds pretty pretty correct which like not in the ladies man way but in this other way i feel like i am a cabal crane because he this guy loves and the feet of shovels and the feet of shovels or fish yeah yeah um he loves to eat this guy like well how is he so scrawny he's starvation got the metabolism of a scarecrow obviously yeah just like we do. two about it kind of implying that washington irving might be gay because even times where he's fantasizing about women he's actually just thinking about the food at the house that he's gonna when he sees and disney's like we're gonna lean into the woman part though yeah he's like i

have a question this woman so i better get to her house and then eat all of the delicious food and then fantasize about that so um anyway so you were saying like oh but he's also kind of a creep or like the women might like not like how weird he is but at the time apparently school masters and rural areas were like just the most sought after men oh even though they didn't make a lot of money so like if money didn't matter to you a school master was was the one for you because they were still seen as superior because of their educational status they could read and write when a lot of people couldn't. They were seen as very cultured, knowledgeable, gentlemanly. They could carry conversations because they knew they could talk about anything.

Probably somewhat straight-laced because they're half the rules. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know. And they're good with kids, in theory. So, and this is in specifically rural areas where you don't really know anyone outside of your community. But a schoolmaster was known to be a traveler. So, that's where the cultured part comes into um because they would kind of just like uh sign a contract and stay in one spot for a little bit but then they could tell you all about their their travels i guess i see why jesse was kind of into this portrayal then

yeah yeah he was like okay yeah call me call me a scarecrow but call me a ladies man um and so these were all the reasons that that mate regardless of his you know like his looks that society normally wouldn't have enjoyed or whatever he was still the most sought after because they were like we could talk to him about anything he is confident in a room he knows how to read and write and can tell us all about books he's discovered. And so basically the women were all after him because he could hang out with them and have confidence versus the, quote, shy country bumpkins who were less educated and couldn't provide that kind of intellectual relationship. That's the way it was put. That's the way it was put. Another reason they liked him is because schoolmasters were notorious for knowing all the townspeople pretty intimately. Because like I said, they would travel into a town that they didn't know.

And so as part of the schoolteacher contracts of the time, I don't know if there was really a contract, but the agreement that a schoolmaster would make is that they would get paid less money, But the agreement that a schoolmaster would make is that they would get paid less money, but they would get free room and board because the town would agree to house him on a rotational period. Which meant that the schoolmaster was living at one point or another in every single person's house. Which meant that they were like ripe with gossip. Well, and they knew who was the best cook for sure. And that's why he was like, oh, I'm going to be nice to you because next week I'm staying at your house and i know what kind of cook your mom is i need that pot pie exactly yeah yeah yeah yeah so since people took teachers in on a rotational basis he knew every single little nitty-gritty thing and so women also loved him because he would like i think like i'm in love with him i'm not really sure at this point but i'm like what's happening

i'm like okay ichabod ichabod we're all in love with him so while he was living in these folks home um beyond gathering gossip for to like woo the ladies his favorite activity was just sit at the fire at night and just talk to them and he would like to ask them their favorite spooky stories because ichabod much like washington irving loved ghost stories got it so he wrote himself into that character a little bit. Love that. Where he would travel and just want to hear about people's, like, favorite ghost stories. Love that for you, Irving.

And so, where are we? I lost it. Oh, because it happened to be Sleepy Hollow, Ichabod Crane was super stoked because he was like, oh, oh this is like everyone has a story like the whole the whole town is spooky so um he loved living here and just asking anyone what their favorite story was and all of them seemed to be aware of like their own eerie vibe to the town like they all knew that they were in a trance and didn't care they were like this place is spooky we're fine with it um but in exchange for their ghost stories, Ichabod, one of his favorite books, was Cotton Mather's History of New England Witchcraft. And so he would like barter and be like, if you give me a ghost story, I'll tell you something about witchcraft. Okay.

So like they were both kind of learning something. And so that being said, even though it was his favorite thing, Ichabod was also super superstitious and would get freaked out very easily. And so when he would walk home, if he was staying with someone or meeting up with a friend, anytime he had to walk home, he would freak himself out because he had to walk through the really eerie woods at night. That's like Eva when we sent her home after the... And then he found a mummified lemon in his kitchen. But so that's important for later that he like is very quick to get scared um but one way since he didn't make a lot of money another way that he would kind of have a side hustle is that he um did some random farm work at whoever's house he was staying at or he

would also teach um singing lessons in town and so when one of the students that he taught singing to was katrina van tassel who was the daughter of the richest farmer in town nice and here's something weird uh but she was 18 apparently she was known to be a flirt she like knew that all the guys wanted her because she was like the richest man's daughter so she allowed it she was like okay you can court me and you can court me and you can court me um but she was described as plump as a partridge ripe as one of her father's peaches which is like again this weird like little uh interest in the food more than anything else right it is food you're right if like i i don't know i don't know where i was going with that sentence you are plump as a partridge i had i like five different things i was gonna say and then i ignored all of them but like

i guess if you are sweet as apple pie i'm trying to think of other if he is uh if he is gay and he's trying to you know if he's trying to imply that he like if he doesn't know how to describe women like i could see him being like plump as a partridge i like food i guess yeah it's like she looks delicious i think like really like hyper focusing on some other thing so uh arguably this this is my own uh analysis and my own critique but arguably he doesn't want katrina even though in the story it's kind of like this like little love story oh he wants to be with katrina but i for the like the first time ever read this thing to back up my own opinion but like he does not really like her it sounds more like he just wants access to all of the farm animals that like her fought like to

eat them to eat them like every like the first time he's describing her there's yeah maybe yes uh he in his description of like katrina like the first sentence is like i like katrina she looks like a peach or something and then and then he's like he goes into such lush detail about like the ways he would like eat these farm animals of like. What the hell? Like, cause he's thinking like, think of the bacon from that pig and think of, you know, what the steaks from this cow. And think about the, he's like obsessed. Is he like actually starving?

It sounds like maybe. Maybe. Maybe he's never had access to any of the food. But. This is pretty weird. I, listen. You argue that he's not that into her. He's into her food.

I, I was reading his descriptions and I, yes, they were i was on board i was like yeah yeah yeah i would think about that i'm like actually hungry now he described uh like the chicken the geese the turkey i mean any food there anything that he could cook somehow and then eat and he would have have access to it if he married the person who owned the biggest farm in town he was like that's the one for it wasn't like i'm gonna get a lot of money to buy a lot of food it was like no here's the direct access he was just daydreaming about the meals served to him and then he also thought oh and it also wouldn't hurt the like once her father's gone we would both inherit that money and i'd also be rich so like oh oh oh sure but they they make it seem like this guy like i'm kind of

framing him as like he's like a quote bad guy because he's not interested in the girl but they make they frame it like that he's like the protagonist of this story and there's many reasons to love katrina including the food he could eat and the money he would make not bad um but uh his biggest competition in town is this man brahm van brunt who also goes by brahm bones because he's so strong so um they call him brahm bones for some reason but he's apparently like the pinnacle like all-american boy the dreamiest man in town everyone loves him he's never done a bad thing he's like basically um like gaston but well respected and funny and friendly and a hunk yeah a hunk for sure and he's like everybody loves this man he like won all the horse races and shit so here's a quote the neighbors looked upon him with

a with a mixture of awe admiration and goodwill everyone loved this guy. So the guys in town knew that Brahm liked Katrina, and they were like, we respect this guy too much. We're not even going to get in his way. Katrina and Brahm are going to be together. And then, so even though no one else was willing to challenge him, Ichabod was like, I fucking apparently want all this bacon. Ichabod was like, I'm hungry. I'm hungry, and I want money.

So I'm also, I just just i want what you want um and so he decides like well i'm not anywhere near as strong as brom bone so i'm going to have to be sneakier about this and he starts coming up with this guise of like oh i'm gonna teach private singing lessons at katrina's house so they could be alone together okay um and so when brahm felt threatened by this he and his friends started pranking ichabod whenever they could which like is such a nice calm friendly way to like he must have really not really thought that he was like really threatened he was like okay guy like you can try but i'm also gonna prank you along the way until i win but uh so here's a quote from when they would prank him uh brahman his friends

they smoked out his singing school by stopping up the chimney they broke into the schoolhouse just to turn everything upside down and brahm had a dog who he taught to whine in the most ludicrous manner whenever ichabod would sing that's my favorite that's a very long drawn out prank imagine how long you would have to teach it would take to teach your dog that yeah a very long drawn out prank imagine how long you would have to teach it would take to teach your dog that yeah a long long time so one day ichabod gets invited to the van tassels for a party which was known at the time as a quilting frolic oh i don't know why we're not having quilting right that's eva we gotta have a quilting frolic today um so he rushed he rushed his students out of school that day he was like you gotta get out

of here i gotta i gotta head out early he got as dressed up as he could and then even borrowed a horse from a friend named hans von ripper which is kind of funny because it sounds like rip van winkle so i don't know if that was like a nod to it but um so the horse's name was gunpowder gunpowder wasn't looking great um they were a pair they were matched a match made in heaven apparently um according to washington irving and society's looks uh the animal was broken down was a broken down plow horse he was gaunt and shagged with an ew neck and had a head like a hammer his rusty mane and tail were tangled and knotted with burrs one eye had lost its pupil and was glaring and spectral, but the other had a gleam of a genuine devil in it.

I love this horse. Gunpowder, he's just trying to make everyday work. I love him so dearly. Yeah, so apparently neither of them are looking great according to Washington Irving only, but then again,

he's also hyper fixated on all this food. So I don't know what if he's really thinking straight or not so the whole right there Ichabod is daydreaming again about the food at the party and not Katrina love it although they he writes it as if like I think Washington Irving generally thought he was like I'm assuming he's gay at this point I think Washington Irving like thought he was doing a great job making it look like, yeah, I know how to think about women. And like if I were Ichabod Crane and in love with this woman, I know how to, you know, daydream and fantasize about her.

I'm pulling it off. No one's ever going to guess. He keeps getting distracted. But then it's like four paragraphs of like all the delicious food that's going to be at this party and no mention of Katrina. That's incredible. And so then Ichabod gets to the the party and guess what we have to read about next more paragraphs where he's confirming all of the food he has about is at the party.

I was like, Jesus. Okay. So the party's going great. And Ichabod is dancing with Katrina and Brom Bones comes in and sees and is a little jealous, but it's fine. Everyone's winding down and eventually everyone gathers by the fire to tell spooky stories and everyone's telling like you know this ghost story

and this ghost story all from different haunts in the area but eventually they get to their favorite the headless horseman and uh basically the headless horseman i've said this already but the story within the legend of sleepy hollow is that allegedly the headless horseman is the hessian soldier who lost his head from a cannonball during the Revolutionary War who was buried outside at the church. And he rides each night throughout the woods in search of his head and will stop anyone who gets in his way. And the church apparently has woods nearby that lead to a brook and that brook has a bridge on it.

And it's spooky even during the daytime. But apparently if you're able to cross that bridge, if you see him in the woods and he's chasing you, if you can get to the bridge, the headless horseman cannot cross. I remember that scene from. Yeah. That's the only thing I remember.

That was my only memory of that movie. Apparently even Brom Bones himself is usually a skeptic, but he was like, no, the headless horseman has definitely chased me a few times. But anytime I've gone to the bridge, he turns into a skeleton and then disappears in a flash of fire oh spooky spooky um so after these stories the party begins to clear out ichabod stays behind to talk to katrina and even the narrator himself doesn't know what happened like diedrich knickerbocker

narrating this is like i don't know what happened. But we next see Ichabod looking really upset. So I guess he got rejected by Katrina. What? Okay, they like even Washington Irving was like, I don't know how to talk about women. It didn't work out. I don't know. There's no food in this story. You get it. There's no food in this chapter. I don't know how to like lean into something. So so all we see is that he's upset after the party clearly something didn't work out with katrina and so he's walking home and uh on his way home he's still thinking about all the ghost stories too okay so he's not thinking about katrina okay washington not irving he's thinking about all the ghost stories that people were just talking

about and he's freaking himself out as he's riding through the woods um every single sound is freaking him out he sees this tree that's kind of a landmark in the town because it's known to be this really haunted tree he's seeing uh shadows that are cast from it the leaves and the branches are sounding like people wailing and nearby he sees the brook and the bridge but he hasn't gotten there yet but all of a sudden uh you know even though nobody likes being there alone at night he's like wishing people were bridge but he hasn't gotten there yet but all of a sudden uh you know even though nobody likes being there alone at night he's like wishing people were near him he doesn't want to be anywhere in the woods by himself and he's moving past one clearing and all of a sudden gunpowder halts and won't move oh no and so ichabod starts whistling too to try to like drown

out the creepy sounds he's hearing yeah which to me is worse because you're just like calling yourself out as a prey like for sure i'm right here come get me for sure um but gunpowder won't go no matter how much ichabod like kind of kicks him in the stomach like like kicks him on his side or on his sides i'm not a horse person but you know like kick them so they go yes i know what you mean apparently he's kicking them harder and harder like fucking go and gunpowder won't do it oh um and so he's now feeling stuck in the woods on this horse that won't go anywhere and all of a sudden he hears a sound near the path and he sees something quote huge misshapen and towering standing there and he says who are you and there's no reply so he asks again and no answer again and then this being steps into the middle of the road and ichabod is just tries to get around him at this point like it's this being

on a horse he sees it in the distance and he's like i'm just gonna like keep riding like we're gonna turn around so now this being is behind them oh no and he's like i'm just gonna ignore it like it's just someone else coming home from the party or something um but he feels like this thing is creepily close like uncomfortably close and so he does that thing that we all do on a sidewalk where it's like i'm just gonna go around you and walk fast so we're not near each other anymore yeah and then as he does that all of a sudden the horse behind him starts getting faster and keeping up with him even though he's trying to speed away so then he thinks okay i'm gonna just literally like go super slow so he'll go around me i see i see and then the guy behind him slows down so this being is like just keeping up with

him whether or not he speeds up or slows down um and so all he knows this is like a big dude on a powerful black horse and he's just trotting along no matter what speed they're going at and eventually ichabod's like fuck this and he just books it he just goes as fast as he can and this guy takes off with him um so they're going super fast to a point where gunpowder is even like kind of losing his way and not paying attention to where he needs to run he's just also spooked and so they kind of like almost keep getting to the bridge and then gunpowder freaks out and like they go back into the woods and so every time ichabod thinks he's almost in the clear oh that's it becomes this chase scene um when gunpowder for like who looked like he was like really not doing hot earlier he's

like going as fast as he possibly can hell yeah and even the saddle is starting to fall off and ichabod at one point has to like kind of jump off of the saddle as it's falling off of him and grab gunpowder by the neck and just ride him like as fast as he can holding on um eventually he actually does get to the bridge and he's thinking like as long as i can get to the bridge i'm safe but he's feeling this thing is so close to him, he can feel hot breath from this horseman, apparently. And he's like, as long as I can get to the bridge, I'm going to be okay. So he gets to the bridge and he's on the bridge and thinking he finally made it. He turns around to make sure that the headless horseman isn't following him.

And the horseman couldn't get on the bridge. So the horse has stopped and he's looking at him from the other end of the bridge but the horseman then stands up in his stirrups and this is when real when he realizes that even though he was a headless horseman apparently he was holding his head the whole time so he was never looking for his head he'd fucking found it still mad but then he so the headless horseman stands up in his stirrups and chucks his head he'd fucking found it he was still mad but then he so the headless horseman stands up in his stirrups and chucks his head at ichabod what it hits ichabod he falls off the horse and gunpowder is still spooked and runs on no and we don't better it's like you kick me in the

stomach fuck you i'm leaving and then we never that's it that's the end that's it we don't know what happened to ichabod but so the next morning gunpowder is found by himself he's found in town without a saddle on and ichabod doesn't show up all day but then once they realize that ichabod has not come home for breakfast lunch or dinner then they're like okay something's wrong ring the alarm bell we have to go look for him so they start going towards the bridge because i know he went to that party last night and so uh they basically get to the the bridge and they find that they find gunpowder saddle they find hoof prints um from the church to the bridge they find ichabod's hat and they find a smashed pumpkin and so they looked everywhere but they never found him

and they never came back there they he never came back for his things they just destroyed everything of his and they just moved on with their lives um but the narrator says years later an old farmer um had told him this story and he'd been to new york and he saw ichabod crane himself and confirmed that he's alive and well oh and that ichabod studied law became a politician wrote for the newspaper and became a court justice and braum bones and katrina got married but braum always laughs when he hears about ichabod and the pumpkin hitting him because it didn't a lot of people think that that means it was never a headless horseman it was a prank it was bram bones trying to scare him away from katrina yeah um but a lot of people uh in sleepy hollow don't believe that it was a pumpkin they

think that the pumpkin was planted there and the headless horseman actually just took him in the middle of the night through the woods to never be seen again so a lot of people think that it was a plant job to make it look like it was a prank and ichabod got out of town but really the headless horseman got him after all so despite this many people still think that ichabod never was seen again and that he was taken by the headless horseman so that's the story what so we don't even know i'm gonna go with the story that he's just now alive and well and living in i'm gonna go with the headless oh my gosh what a tale what a long tale but i i thought it was it was worth hearing all the the history because i knew none of that and i found out that washington irving is probably

definitely gay oh love that queer in some way love that for him so um also i love that we're approaching halloween and your stories are getting kind of halloweeny oh good no pressure for me to keep going and getting more halloween listen there's always pressure and we always fail so don't worry i don't think we always succeed in the way no one's expecting and we always fail in the way people hope yeah it's a bummer um okay well m i have um an unsolved case for you today. Yay. Yeah. Huzzah. Oh, yeah. Well, my favorite category, but still, I always hate the endings because it's very frustrating. Someone's on the loose.

It's fun because you can theorize and it's not fun because you want an answer. So. Yes. This is the disappearance of Josh Guimaud. Or as I kept hearing pronounced Guimaud, but as far as the news tells me, it's pronounced. Either way, I don't know it. Okay. So I actually discovered, okay. So I listened to a podcast on this and I was very impressed. And then I was like, this is some great information that I hadn't heard elsewhere.

And then I looked them up and they're like really new and really small. And I was like, Hey, I don't even know how you like stumbled upon this but it was they were I mean they're really good it's called victimized podcast and um I just was I just want to give them a little shout out I mean they were just really good at what they did and then I listened to every single episode I mean they only have like seven hour now but but I listen to all of them. It was easy to do then. You're totally caught up. I binged it. Exactly. So anyway, they do a great job. So if you want some really excellent research, check them out. Okay.

So let me just dive right into the tale. By all means. Okay. John Guimaud? Josh. Josh Guimaud. It's Saturday, November 9th on a cold, wintry evening in Collegeville, Minnesota. 20-year-old junior Josh Guimaud is playing cards and having some drinks with a group of nine friends.

So this is at St. John's University where he goes to school. And he's at his friend Nate's apartment in Mettencourt, which is like the north end of this campus. Between 11 p.m and midnight he says like at some point during that time he says to his friends he's gonna run to the bathroom and after a little while he doesn't come back so everyone kind of thinks oh he maybe he didn't feel well or maybe he just decided to go home um he only lives three minutes away by foot so they were like he probably just left just just like just skipped away yeah so the following day sunday november 10th josh doesn't show up for mock trial and uh this seems a little weird to his

friends because he's very punctual and like this isn't something he would normally miss much like ichabod would never miss breakfast that's the truth listen actually ichabod's got me because i sleep through breakfast but i make lunch you make lunch your breakfast and i actually think that i make lunch my breakfast brunch and lunch yeah and snack number one of the day and your bitch you make lunch your bitch and your brunch i love put that on a shirt don't though because i feel like we're gonna get in trouble okay um with like my dad anyway so he doesn't show up for rock trial and this is like really out of character and uh so his friends talked to his roommate nick who was like yeah he didn't show up for rock trial. And this is like really out of character. And so his friends talked to his roommate, Nick, who was like, yeah, he didn't come home last night. And they're like, oh, dear.

Oh, shit. Oh, no. So essentially, nobody had seen him since then. And he had completely disappeared out of thin air. So a little background on Josh. His name is Joshua Chaney Guimau. He was born on June 18th, 1982 and was from maple lake minnesota he was class president of his high school voted most likely to succeed he wanted to work in

politics and his grandmother barb was a member of the minnesota house of representatives and like when he was writing his scholarship paper he like talked about his grandma barb and how like he aspired to be like her it was very sweet that's very sweet so he um this is actually one thing i learned from this victimized podcast is that he hadn't his email address was senator josh because he was like very like you're inspiring yeah exactly um so as a devout he was a devout christian he attended church on sundays and then had enrolled at saint john's university in minnesota which is this like really excellent catholic liberal, you know what I'm saying? Liberal arts college.

It's Catholic. And at St. John's during his junior year, he was while he's majoring in political science. He also did other things like he did mock trial. Like I said, he was also kind of like fun and goofy. Like he wasn't just very, you know, straight laced or anything. So my brother, as I think I laced or anything so my brother as i think i told you last day my brother recently got a newspapers.com subscription and i've become like just thoroughly obsessed um so there's this article from the saint cloud times um and uh josh had written this poem that was later found on his computer and it's about martinis

huh i'm gonna read it to you please and they read it in this victimized podcast too and i was like i need to find this because this is excellent so it's called a drink with something in it there is something about a martini a tingle remarkably pleasant a yellow mellow martini i wish i had one present oh by the way so do i eva okay there is something about a martini ere the dining and dancing begin and to tell you the truth it's not in the vermouth i think perhaps it's in the gin this is fun that's so fun it was like so cute so cute so fun yeah so boozy so boozy okay um and this was what again what how does this happen i'm kind of blacking out i'm like i thought we were talking about someone who's missing yeah they later found on his computer this poem so like it just shows like a part of his character that's goofy yeah yeah yeah he wasn't

just he also really likes cigars i guess he wasn't like you know just super straight-laced like he also loved to poetize about martinis i guess sure um so with no idea where josh was especially after not turning up to mock trial his friends tell his father around 8 p.m and reporting report him missing to police when they can't find him anywhere so searches began that night but it was too dark for like a thorough search around campus um according to cbs minnesota they also didn't have great technology in 2002 so there were no security cameras they didn't have cell phones so it was like it's not a great time for them to do a late night dark search sure um according to his friends although there was like a little bit of

drinking at the card game night um he wasn't drunk at all and his father had asserted that joshua was not depressed he was a active, conscientious student with many friends. And like, obviously, it was very aspirational. So it didn't really like the angle of depression or suicide didn't really fit. Yeah. Yeah. And so even investigators were like, I don't think that's what happened here. So on Monday, November 11th, the search for Joshua officially began. And the National Guard came out, the Stern County Sheriff's Department.

They used horses and people on the ground to search the campus and while searching josh's room they found he had left his glasses and contact lenses at home that night which seems so like i would immediately think there was a problem yeah as a glasses contacts where i'd be like if you forgot that does anyone recall you don't forget my contact literally fell out of my face the other day and then the end of the world happened we went to Cheesecake Factory and I was driving and I was like I gotta stop at home and get my glasses because this isn't gonna end well for anybody if I'm driving around Los Angeles like this with one eye with one eye yeah like that horse you know yeah one's devilish and one's just like not. That's you after a couple of drinks. That's your eyelid that keeps drooping. Me winking. So basically they are searching the area and they search his room and he had left his glasses and contacts at home, which is strange.

He didn't bring a credit card. He didn't even bring his coat to this card night. And it was a very cold Minnesota night. At the same time, I'm like, it was a three minute walk. So I can imagine if he just was intending to go to his friends. Right. Just like a sweater run over there. was a very cold minnesota night um at the same time i'm like it was a three minute walk so i can imagine if he just was intending to go to his friends right just like a sweater run over there which yeah that makes sense kind of goes into the same angle of like maybe like he probably wasn't expecting to go anywhere else i don't know that's just my thought wasn't it late at night or

something yeah so yeah you'd think he would just do a quick back and forth i don don't know. So he didn't bring a credit card, didn't bring a coat. His car they found totally undisturbed. And this is what kind of led his closest friends and family to believe that maybe foul play was involved. So the Minnesota State Patrol also aided by sending helicopters. They did an aerial search of the woods. A statewide alert was sent out. And a missing persons bulletin went out in all major media in the area and newscasts. So the next day on Tuesday, November 12th,

which was day two of the search, campus buildings continued to be searched by the Sheridan County Sheriff's Department, who had now asked for help from local volunteers. So they were like doing a full on search of this campus. So they were like doing a full on search of this campus. So offers from Maple Lake High School, where Josh went to school, were turned down by the Stern County Sheriff's Department, to whom they said only prayers were needed at this time. Okay, so great. So let's stop right there. Yeah. Thoughts and prayers.

Thoughts and prayers. Okay. How about thoughts, prayers, and action? How about thoughts, prayers, and action? Nope. Okay. Just the prayers. Lots and prayers. Okay. That'll fix it. How about thoughts, prayers, and action? Yeah. How about thoughts, prayers, and action? Nope. Okay. Just the prayers. On Wednesday, November 13th, the Minnesota National Guard stepped in to aid the search,

providing 118 troops and equipment. They searched a 16-square-mile area around campus. And after a search dog picked up Joshua's scent near Stump Lake, which is sometimes also called Stumpfl oh um which in german is stump i see which means stump so it goes from stump lake to stump flake yeah okay yes got it i don't know if they say stump for stump christine certainly does i say a lot of things um so don't listen to me okay so it basically is a it basically is a fun German fun fact. So it's a snake-like body of lake, body of water.

It was on the route that Josh would have taken from Mettencourt, where his friend lived, to his own dorm at St. Moore's house. So the decision to lower the water level was approved like see if they could find anything in this lake. It's not a very big lake. Gotcha. And so they searched and dragged the lake with the support of volunteers from the Trident Foundation, which is a nonprofit designed to respond to drownings or water based crime situations. So they just like come in and. Interesting. Yeah, it's really cool.

Didn't even cross my mind that that type of company exists. We keep learning these like forensic roles. Blown away. I know. it's really cool. Didn't even cross my mind that that type of company exists. We keep learning these like forensic roles. I'm just blown away. I know. It's really cool. So the following day, which would be Thursday, so we're like four days in now. Yikes. Yeah.

Brian Guimaud, Josh's dad, attended a meeting and press conference at the state capitol for families of three other young people who went missing within an 11-day period of each other. Yeah. So this is where it starts to get weird okay and a 200 mile radius around minnesota and wisconsin so their names were michael noel erica dollquist and chris jenkins and now brian guimau was the fourth um that's like the one sorry josh guimau brian guimau was his dad that's the club you like really feel bad for like yes bringing new members in yeah you're like we want another one this at three please yeah yeah it's really unfortunate so josh obviously became the fourth and his dad brian spoke to um the other victim chris jenkins family so i don't know if

anyone will remember this because um we say a lot of things on the show but chris jenkins was a 21 year old student at the university of minnesota who disappeared after a Halloween party in 2002, which was nine days before Josh went missing. Okay. And he was dressed as an American Indian, according to ABC News. Yikes. Do you remember this at all? Okay. No.

This has a connection to a story I covered a few months ago. Oh, did you cover Chris Jenkins' story? He was part of a bigger story interesting that i will get to momentarily um so because chris and joshua have a similar profile white male cis college students um the families were like maybe something's going on oh is it is this the storyline where someone was taking like all the preppy boys like smiley face killer yes yes yeah so he was one of the victims in the smiley face killer interesting theory of murders um i i know it is the preppy boy killers i know i was like is that the same i think yeah like it

was all of the the mo was like everyone that was being taken or found dead or whatever they were all like straight white boys yes and the only reason obviously i mentioned his outfit again is because that's what he was found in. And that's how he was identified. So the Jenkins and Guimaud family started to take things into their own hands. So Brian Guimaud, Josh's dad, conducted a search with 75 to 100 volunteers, mostly from the high school, even though they had been rejected by police by saying only thoughts and prayers, please. Yikes. So they combed the woods around the campus.

Again, they found nothing um but then the jenkins family involved a man trailing bloodhound called hoover hoover sweetie sweetie boy and his owner penny bell who volunteered their time to the case um upon doing uh some little digging pardon the pun um the dog's full name which i'm sure you're interested in knowing i gotta know is hoover von vacuum we got rip van winkle on a hoover von vacuum it's quite a episode today oh this is sweet i know so hoover von vacuum is a little sniffing machine tell me he's the hero of the story well he does definitely open this case in a weird direction so on december 29th hoover von vacuum traces chris jenkins sent uh to the doors of saint john's abbey which is do you know what like an abbey is like a b b e y

it's like where the monks live oh okay um sorry no i'm trying to think if i'm sure you've done like a haunted abbey before no i don't think so i feel like there's like a ton of the only abbey i'm thinking of is abbey road which i know is not the same thing i mean i think it's probably named after the same thing maybe i that's the only time i've ever used that word okay well anyway so there's this abbey on campus because it's a catholic university and that's where the monks live and i guess this is like the biggest group of catholic monks on the west in the western hemisphere is at this university got it there's like 200 of them or something okay um so the dog followed the scent of chris jenkins who was the other guy the guy nine days before to the doors of saint john's abbey uh then when the dog was brought to the apartment where josh had been

playing cards that night his friend's house hoover von vacuum followed joshua sent uh to stump flake onto josh's apartment and then to the abbey oh okay it's weird yeah they both ended up let's just say that the dog traced both of their scents to this Abbey. Sure. Weird. So the weird thing that, the weird thing, there's a lot of weird things, but the fact that Chris Jenkins' scent was found at the Abbey is strange because he was at a bar near the University of Minnesota when he disappeared. And that was an hour and 12 minute drive away from this Abbey.

So it's weird that this dog would have like picked up on the scent and walked straight to the abbey it's just like a strange thing because it's over an hour away anyways um so it's it's the fact that this dog led them to the abbey was like raised a lot of eyebrows so if you do even like a brief search online you will find this out but um for example on the find joshua.com message board uh people like to talk about the history that this university has and it's not a great one um with the lovely abby we're discussing here okay so saint john's university was founded in 1857 by benedictine monks um now these nearly 200 monks reside on campus like i said um the abby's website states that they seek

god through a common life of prayer study and work giving witness to christ and the gospel and service to the church in the world um but according to the website behind the pine curtain which is what they called kind of the area around this campus um because it's kind of like a secluded woodsy area sure pine curtain i like that i know it's like a really kind of fun edgy wording i like it it could also be like absolutely some like folky album yes oh my gosh the pine curtain and then behind the pine curtain is like behind the scenes like how how we made the album making the band oh part two part two what do you call earlier the last making the band because the final the final one i don't want the final thinking a better one the final behind the scenes

um so according to this website behind the pine curtain which is just a great name for a blog yeah um august 1990 i love august 1991 marks when news broke with allegations of the abuse of two students who attended the saint john's preparatory school by a father at saint john's abbey so this is where we're bringing that catholic church fun into the the second largest fan base in the world. Yeah. The first is mine, obviously. So on this same day in 1991, Patrick Marker, founder of this website, by the way, said to the St. Cloud Times as a John Doe at that time that he hoped publicity around his suit would lead other victims to come forward. And this plan worked so marker is currently aware of over 230 victims of sexual misconduct by the super monks

at this abbey great that's awful and uh at the time he went on to say that he believes the numbers of abusers that saint john's abbey knows about may total at least 50 people, 50 separate people altogether. Holy shit. Yeah. So this website exists to validate the experiences of victims of sexual and other misconduct at St. John's. It's full of articles, documents, a reading list. So if you want to look at that, like it's behind the pinecurtain.com. Earlier today, the server was down, so hopefully it's back up. St. John's has a huge history of abuse, which was partially addressed by Abbott John Klassen, who was elected in 2000 when he released a statement on the St. John's website, which identified the files of 18 perpetrating monks dating back to 1977.

But these were only like partial files and they were immediate like victims. Advocates were immediately like, this is not the full story. You're only like picking and choosing like small picking cherry picking small parts of it um and so if you remember that marker said there were at least 50 altogether um the the list in as of july 2019 um is now at 103 oh so yeah okay more than doubled so uh this statement of the 18 monks instead of 103 uh was released in 2016 but it's unclear at this point at least to me if any of them have ever faced any criminal charges i heard on one podcast that they have that none of them have seen any have faced any criminal repercussions and, if you know the history of the Catholic Church at all, typically what happens in these

cases, or at least historically, they just get moved, moved, bopped around. Yeah. And then just do the same thing somewhere else. And then when they get caught, they just transfer somewhere else. Yeah. So, yeah. So that just gives you- Did you ever watch Spotlight?

I did. That's a great movie that was a great movie i watched it on a plane actually i feel like i mean maybe it was eva i think i've been like screaming about that movie recently because i watched it like three times during quarantine really i don't know why i watch it when we were my favorite movies i watched it when we were on tour i just at one point on an airplane but i remember i saw it in theaters and thought like i had i really had like no concept of like the actual story. Yeah. It's really crazy.

The whole thing. I like I watch it. That's like I don't watch a lot of movies a lot. But I like Spotlight's always in the running. It's like maybe I'll watch that again. That's a great movie. So in any case, this is the history that this university has like a very dark history, obviously. And so now when two people go missing, you know,

in this short span of time, it's like, Hmm, what's going on? How bad does it have to be to like, for you to immediately be getting moved around? Right. Wait,

who was moving around? Oh, I thought, are you talking about the two monks? No, sorry. Two victims. Oh,

sorry. Sorry. No, no, you're fine. So like the two guys who died two victim like oh sorry sorry no no you're fine so like the two guys who died and then the dog led the trail to the abbey and it was like it was just like that's not a good look sorry i was on spotlight talk still where i was like two people got

transferred in some way no you're good but like yeah so these two guys vanish die i mean you know chris jenkins died um but yeah the the fact that the scent led to the abbey both of them was very strange yeah at least in my opinion definitely so anyway let's go back to hoover von vacuum forever um so hoover von vacuum was following the scent um of both chris and josh to the abbey and uh when the dog showed interest in pursuing the scent further into the abbey because the dog indicated that showed interest in pursuing the scent further into the abbey because the dog indicated that like it needs to go now inside uh the search team was denied access what a shock well because of what i just told you i know i know but it's like anyway yeah

it's not a it's really not a good look but i guess they can do that so great i'd follow that dog anywhere yeah to be clear oh absolutely but also like the dog knows i just okay what happens next so it was a week after the team were denied access so january 5th uh which is approximately three months after josh's disappearance that they were finally given permission to enter the abbey so basically uh they had a week to clean up or hide anything. Whatever they needed to do. So Hoover Vaughn Vacuum is back. Hoover Vaughn Vacuum is vacuum. Is back in action. The vacuum is vacuum.

So they were given permission finally. And Hoover picks up Josh's scent at the very rear of the large building. Okay. At least it's helpful. At least it's still there. They didn't sweep her at all up yet they couldn't uh they couldn't clean they couldn't fast enough or whatever three days after this allegations by detective dave hoshin of the minneapolis police against hoover how dare you and penny arise because hoover doesn't have any official credentials okay fuck off yeah seriously in response to this according to an article on

the maple lake messenger bell said certification is no indication of a particular bloodhound's abilities hoover is a man trailing bloodhound she said she comes with a natural inclination to do her job oh i thought it was a boy i'm sorry wow we definitely both misgendered hoover oops even though hoover's like definitely could be a gender neutral name badass what's wrong with us um all she learns from training is the ritual of procedure why should i as a human be judging her ability to do her job i'd rather go out and help a family than say it can't be done right and according to the same article todd borel of the maple lake fire department was also present during the search and said i was very

impressed with the dog handler and the dog and very unimpressed with the stern county sheriff's department all right well at least you've got someone on your side exactly so uh this being said the credibility allegation um succeeds and they basically kicked them out of the abbey um and the university also said pets aren't allowed ew and they're like okay but it's like a man trailing bloodhound and they're like yeah but she doesn't have credentials so she's not allowed that's kind of how they kicked them out so they're just like trying to find any excuse at this point. Yeah. And it's working, unfortunately. So on January 18th, the whole private investigation came to a halt when St. John's then instated the rule.

Yeah, that pets were not allowed. I did just say that. Sorry. And since she wasn't credentialed, she counted as a pet. How dare you? That's awful. Sorry. No, you're good uh the hoover von vacuum team were asked to leave because they had not coordinated through the sheriff's department and the

guillemot family was notified that uh private surgeries searches could be conducted as long as the ab the head abbot uh of saint john's was notified prior to the search which like okay that defeats all shit purpose but whatever um so they searched the lake again couldn't find anything and again this is not a very big lake so you think they would have found something with multiple searches um on february 27 2003 chris jenkins body was found wearing the halloween costume um the medical examiner excuse me the medical examiner found no signs of foul play so the official cause of death is listed as undetermined. And we talked about him in the Smiley Face Killer episode.

The police believe Chris died from accidental drowning, but there were some other strange inconsistencies. On Medium, Lisa Marie Fuqua, who wrote an article, wrote, Firstly, he was found with his arms crossed in front of him him which is odd for victims who fall into the water and drown and secondly his shirt was still tucked into his drawstring pants and his slip-on moccasins were stolen his feet um so people the pathologists believed that his body was already in rigor mortis when he was put in the water because it remained like in this that position so strange inconsistency and then again like the dog was trailing his scent to this abbey an hour away so that's also weird um at the end of march 2003 uh michael knoll who was one of the other people who had gone missing um was found in half moon lake in wisconsin unfortunately and

then eventually erica's body was also found in brainerd minnesota um in like the backyard of her murderer like wow he had been killed like in his backyard oh it's really horrible so in early june 2003 this is now seven months after he went missing st john's sends a letter to the guillemot family indicating that the stern county sheriff's department deems the st john's property to have been satisfactory satisfactorily examined and no further searches were planned at the time so they're like anyway nice knowing you yeah it's been real it's been real josh's family and father are like no we are gonna keep looking obviously um they're but there's even been like protesting outside the the courthouse

wow um and they've been doing their own search and research and to the point that the university literally took out a court order of restraint against brian guimau what that's how much they did not want him searching wow they're probably holy shit okay i know it's not a good sign um so to this day unfortunately this case still remains um unsolved i have a couple theories here and some questions that kind of complicate things i guess so uh i mean obviously one of the big theories is did saint john's abbey have something to do with this like yeah some people think maybe he was walking home that night and bumped into a father right and maybe either maybe he knew something or saw something um or maybe he had already been involved like a bunch like you know many of

these other victims maybe he had been a victim himself yeah and somebody wanted to take care of that um there was there were a few sources that said josh was writing a paper on the university's response to sexual abuse but okay there's also not enough real evidence about there's no like proof of that so it's a little strange yeah so that could if that if that's true that's huge yeah that's a red flag i think so um so he could have been abducted that's another thing that people thought like everything was left in his room his car was untouched his glasses his coat everything was left behind um why did he leave so abruptly though you know it's a question like was it was he supposed to meet somebody around midnight and that's why he kind of abruptly left um did the friends not like properly check up on him it's just very weird abrupt leaving and then like literally nobody

ever saw him again it's just very strange um and again like it wasn't a huge party it was like 10 people it's not like there was a huge party going on and he slipped away. You're just like drinking with the guys. And then just was like, I'm going to the bathroom. And then just like never came back. So just strange. Super weird. Okay.

Sorry, sorry, sorry. Okay. One thought is like maybe the friends at the party did have something to do with it, which is an interesting theory. So on the week of December 2nd, 2002, which was three weeks after Joshua went missing, the Stearns County Sheriff Department had also conducted and questioned eight of the nine students present at the party the night Joshua disappeared, but stated that they were unable to contact the remaining student which seems odd because there was one person they just said we can't contact that person and ask any questions which is like why yeah if you know who it is right what happened to them or yeah what's going on like why are they why are they like uh excused yeah exactly why have they been like pardoned they've been let go from this situation

so weird um and then another really weird twist is maybe josh had gotten into some other sort of trouble because within hours or days it's not really sure after he disappeared someone had erased 300 items from his computer hard drive sounds like he was up to something well uh some of the information was recovered and it turns out he was helping with making fake id cards okay underage drinking um now so in my mind i'm like yeah i feel like we have all had that friend where we're like if something happens erase my yeah computer my browser history whatever you know like even jokingly but um you know i'm sure like if he was involved with another student and they were doing fake id cards i bet the friend would be like shit i don't want that

to come out right well so it doesn't necessarily someone was just being a good friend and trying to like cover up something or they were also involved and were like i don't want to get into any trouble but yeah so i mean that i think that's shady, but I could also explain that away as like a friend or somebody who was like, I don't want this getting out there. Right. That was the other thing, too. I was wondering is like then maybe his term paper that we don't have proof of could have been delayed as well. OK, so that's a good point. Especially if multiple people have said he was writing this term paper. Like it seems like a weird thing to make up in which case then i then the story changes then

it's a lot right it's like a totally different shift then it's a cover-up or yes yeah it's like a hit job creepy um so yeah maybe this was a smiley face killer i mean that's another theory yeah i personally don't think it was. That was episode 173, if you want to check it out. One of those four people missing ends up being a part of that storyline, right? Yeah, but that whole theory is, like, very unclear. Most people think he drowned accidentally. And then there are the people who swear by the smiling face killer theory and believe he was part of this bigger scheme. I kind of mentally debunked that for myself in that episode.

But I mean, maybe maybe it's true. I'm not saying it's not. I'm saying I'm not sure. Again, they were both white male, cis college age, successful students who were found in bodies of water. Not that Josh was found in a body of water, but he was clearly traced to the lake. However, there was no smiley face graffiti reported in Chris Jenkins' case or in Josh's case. So it seems like not that strong of a smiley face connection to me, but who's to say? And again, like maybe he was in the lake and they just weren't able to find him, which seems unlikely.

This could have been a suicide. This could have been an accident if he had been intoxicated or fallen in. Yeah. So Brian Guimaud, Josh's dad, was told by Stern County Sheriff John Sanner that Josh must have fallen into a swampy area. And actually they told him at one point that maybe he was eaten by turtles. I'm not even making that up. Is that not the weirdest thing you've ever heard? It's such a random obscure – it has so much less potential that why would that be the thing you said?

Oh, yeah. There are 100 priests who are abusing young men, but it was probably a man-eating turtle. Yeah, exactly. Or a frog or like a magical fairy just came down. Magical fairy. I mean, it's not impossible. It's definitely less possible than all these other things I could have said. I'm going to choose this thing.

Well, and the reason I love this victimized podcast so much is that one of the hosts was like i went and looked to see if there are man-eating turtles right are there no she's like there's a kind in india that does that but like there's no evidence that there isn't like a well-known species in minnesota or something so just odd so i appreciated that they did that research for me that i was wondering the deep dive on turtles uh the final deep deep dive on turtles final dive making the band okay behind the pine curtain behind the pine curtain 2.0 um so all in all brian guillemot is very frustrated at how his son's case has been handled obviously um especially with the delays like for example it

took two requests for the trident foundation to be allowed to search the lake um the delay to enter the abbey which could have you know erased all sorts of evidence um the delay in interviewing students a delay in involving volunteers who were just told to pray um and the failure of examining josh's computer oh by the way yeah his dad analyzed his. Oh, by the way, yeah. His dad analyzed it. His family analyzed his computer. The police didn't do that. Oh. He went, took the computer, went to get the hard drive recovered because somebody had

deleted all these files. Uh-huh. So they're the ones that discovered all this. So not even the police? No. Oh, okay. Yeah. Great.

Yeah. Not a good sign. Brian says, quote, it's like I said from day one. He was set up and grabbed. There's all kinds of human trafficking going on. Sex slaves, all that crap. All that crap. Yes.

He's not wrong. Nobody wants to talk about it. That's real. It's happening. There's no evidence to point that it is an abduction or it is that it is an abduction or it isn't an abduction. As a parent, you can see how this has been very frustrating. I think it's time that somebody is held accountable for their mistakes. It is obvious that we have had no cooperation from the first day. And if anything, we have been lied to and misled. This is my son,

a human being, not a missing animal that we were talking about and trying to find. So it's approaching 18 years now since Josh went missing. And this disappearance, I know, still remains unsolved. Although Brian has since hired private investigators and still holds out hope for his son. And they still regularly hold like yearly, you know, remembrance parties and that kind of thing. He says it can be solved. It's just going to take the right people looking at the right information. So if you do want to find out more information about the case, or if you do have any information, this is also like not a widely spread story. Like I didn't know about it before researching it. So please head to the site, findjoshua.com.

This is Brian's website, his dad's website. And if you have any information about his disappearance, you're asked to contact the Stearns County Sheriff, Steve Sojka, and you can call them at 320-259-3702 or email him at steve.soyka at co this is a long email at co.sterns s-t-e-a-r-n-s

dot m-n dot u-s backslash free thoughts backslash dot gov dot e-d-u also you can just call that phone number it might be easier or if you have phone anxiety like me maybe just go to findjoshua.com and Brian will lead way right so anyway that is the unsolved disappearance of josh chemo and um i'm really hoping this is solved because it sounds like there's some shady

shit going on at this school that even in and of itself needs to be addressed i personally i really want to believe that there was like some paper on his computer that he was writing. That's a really interesting lead. I think it's a super interesting lead. Yeah. I think that's the one I'm leaning towards. I do too. I find that really fascinating.

And like the fact that clearly there was already this mounting interest. Yeah. And, you know, these victims have come forward and been like, this happened to way more people than you think you know who's to say he wasn't a victim or he didn't know something or research something he wasn't supposed to see right um so who's to say but maybe we'll find out weird all right well fingers crossed that things go well i hope so if we have any updates i will let you know oh thank you guys for putting up with such a long episode thank you for putting up with us thank you for being i'm putting up with a little lemon little lemon little lemon little lemon little lemon yeah yeah yeah okay making the band behind the pine curtain little

lemon in the pine curtain wait a minute wait a minute that was great write that down okay uh thank you guys and sorry um if you want to find out more information you go to and that's why we drink.com um check us out at wwd podcast and otherwise we will see you next week yes and that's why we drink clink音楽