And That's Why We Drink - E225 A Baby Barcalounger and the Water Tumbler of Doom

Episode Date: May 30, 2021

It's episode 225, folks, and we've got some personal updates for you! Here are a few clues: Em had their pants down in a murderer's house and Christine had a catastrophe involving a dolphin named Dolph Lundgren and a sizzling laptop. But we mustered through and have some wild stories for you today, both from across the pond. First, Em covers the urban legend, the Black Shuck, which may or may not have creepy fingers. Then Christine brings us Britain's most prolific serial killer, Harold Shipman. We also investigate the invention of deer... and that's why we drink! Please consider supporting the companies that support us! Right now, you can go to HuntAKiller.com/DRINK and use DRINK, for 20% off your first box!Helix is offering up to $200 off all mattress orders AND two free pillows for our listeners at HelixSleep.com/drinkFelixGrayGlasses.com/DRINK. Free shipping. Free exchanges. 30-day money back guarantee!Use coupon code DRINK for $10 off your first box at FABFITFUN.COMFor a limited time, ButcherBox is offering new members a free BBQ Bundle in their first box– That’s 2 NY strip steaks, 6 burgers, and 5 lbs of drumsticks all for FREE in your first box. Just go to ButcherBox.com/ATWWDGo to ZOLA.com/drink today and use promo code SAVE50

what's up christine hey boo how you doing good how how's baby boo um pretty great we just got a little recliner delivered from my wedding wedding registry yikes from my uh baby registry registries are the best but uh i'm sorry your baby has a recliner well it's like for nursing and stuff you know oh a baby has its own yes the baby actually has its own loungewear and you know i didn't know i was like if they but you know i love things that are not proportionally the right size no it's like if there was a little baby barca lounger i would have lost it no it's for my big butt not a baby um but yeah so my beautiful mother-in-law bought it off and father-in-law bought it off our registry was so so kind and it just got delivered and as Em knows I was sitting here and I was like

I hear a man in my house and of course Em was like maybe go check on that but it turns out blaze had it handled so it's all good christine went i'm probably fine i was like nah let's just keep going it's okay uh the maternal instincts not there yet they're not here yet that's okay they haven't arrived they're they're late that's okay uh i apologize in advance for the mess that's behind me. Oh, God forbid. I've been home for a week and I still have yet to unpack. It's Allison's favorite trait about me is how messy I am. Okay, you literally judge my trash pile like every day. So don't even talk about being messy.

I haven't seen your trash pile since you left LA. Your trash pile was pretty insane, to be fair. It comes with me everywhere. No, this is all my stuff from when i was out of town um so sorry in advance to that oh i wanted to tell you about my time out of town yes tell me please i'm gonna eat my um dried mango here great while you tell me while you regale me well i just wanted to tell you mainly about the lizzie bourne yes if you guys haven't listened to the listener episode and mentioned it does it come out wait what's the date that this comes out oh the listener episode has not come out yet so they don't even know about this yet so yes guess what i went to lizzie borden house i did i uh i went there and i felt really

bad that christine wasn't with me so I texted you as soon as I walked in. I had a slight tear come down my face, but I was very excited for you, though. I texted Christine. I had to go to the bathroom as soon as I got there because we had been driving for a while. And I texted Christine, my pants are down in a murderer's house. Yeah. Well, I was like, honestly, it was kind of like what I just did to you because I was like, all right, what are my next steps?

Do I call the authorities? Do I start your funeral arrangements? Like, what do you want me to do? I wanted you to play a little guessing game with yourself, and it worked. But no, so I went to the Lizzie Borden house and did an overnight stay and it was a very odd experience it was a cool experience but it was still a very um a borderline morally icky experience right we did talk about that briefly yeah and I'll I'll I'll wow there's so many things I want to say about this um yeah it was really weird because the the people who work there the tour guides i've never met people more of an expert in their field than people who have like dedicated their lives to the lizzie borden

story and are the the tour guides there i've gone to the the borden house before and anytime i've had a tour there i am just blown away by the amount of information they have like studied to be able to give you as many details as possible and this was the exact same um i the person that was on our tour with us they gave us a tour around seven o'clock at night it was like a two or three hour tour it was really in depth because we chose to stay there all night yeah and then after that you literally just had free reign of the house and it was a bed and breakfast so we woke up to the last meal that everyone at no well that's a little dark yeah yeah it was weird but i appreciated that they were trying to keep a theme going but what was the meal uh it was johnny cakes which were

basically like crappy silver dollars um there was no sugar or anything it was just a dough dough circle uh but i i was like okay i'm in the moment sure okay uh johnny cakes uh there was fruit uh cookies coffee and something else and the cookies were like biscuits i think but okay um i i will say some of the best pineapple i've had in years was out of that. OK, that's good. There you have it. And they make it in the kitchen, like the actual Lizzie Borden kitchen where that meal was cooked. Not the same stove, to be clear.

It's a refurbished version of the same stove. So I feel like the place would have burned down by now if it was that energy. Yeah. So so I had a really weird balance act going on in my mind the whole time i was there because i was having a really good time and the fact that like as someone who likes true crime grew up with the lizzie borden story obviously i was excited to be there but i wanted to be as respectful as possible and it felt really weird to be in the house and it wasn't just a tour. Where everything was roped off. And encased in glass.

It was. I was literally barefoot in my pajamas. Just walking around. It felt like I was house sitting. Especially because after the tour. We hadn't eaten yet. And they don't provide dinner. Although you can Postmates to the house.

Which is interesting. Can you imagine being a Postmates driver. And being like oh not another one. Well we decided that we were just going to go try to find a restaurant in town. And we ended up going to like some hole in the wall, which was awesome. But when we came back, I don't know what was going on. But every other person who booked a room, they went to bed. They didn't stay up to investigate.

They didn't stay up to like just look around and like really appreciate that they're in this space for an unlimited amount of time i was surprised when you fate well a facetime me at 3 a.m and i was definitely rejected your call so if you are in some dire need i will not be the one you should know which you probably already knew that but um but you did facetime me and uh i was surprised the next day when i talked to you and you were you were the only one awake looking around and exploring I sent you I sent a video to Christine I think I also sent it I don't know if I sent it to Eva I don't they sent to the group chat maybe you sent it to me I don't know okay well I I did a video just a walkthrough of the house because I was literally alone my friend that came with me had gone to bed everyone else went to bed i was it truly felt like i was house sitting because there was no one in sight no sounds except the ones i

was making i was just in the kitchen looking through the fridge because obviously uh like just right just by myself in this house and to remember that there was a murder there but i'm in bare feet walking on this the part where there was like up like blood at some point it really was very unsettling and it reminded me a lot we've talked about this before but the the concept of would you wear a murderer shirt because at the end of the day it's just a shirt there's nothing bad about the shirt but because it belonged to someone with so much bad energy you almost make that connection to it and it felt that way of i'm walking around in this house that belongs to a really dark history and there's like two people who died here and so it

was a really weird feeling i'm really glad i got to do it though especially because i went in full intentions to be as respectful as possible so i don't feel like i left with any i didn't leave any bad ties to the place but it was still very weird that like the couch where he was murdered on, you could sleep there if you wanted. Like the rule was, the rule was basically, there are no rules. The only rule was you couldn't go into other people's rooms when they were

sleeping. Fair point. I mean, that was it. But everything else was like, oh yeah, well he died on that couch and they can't confirm it's the couch, although it is completely identical.

They found it at a, I guess, after the Bordens left the house. Oh, interesting. They donated a bunch of their old furniture or put it in storage or something. And then only a couple years later, this exact identical couch that they've never found another copy of, that was right down the road and was upholstered the exact same way and everything happens to be there and they brought it back into the house it just there's a very large chance it's the same couch but um yeah it was just weird that i had full reign of a place that i was told i like in a museum you're not allowed to touch anything and they were literally like go in the basement like fuck around with

stuff like whatever you want to do, like we don't care. And one of the things that I found, which I forgot to send you pictures before right now, but I'll send them to you as we're talking. I found this, we were digging through, there was like a bunch of framed pictures that hadn't been hung yet. And I was looking through some of these old framed pictures that were just kind of leaning against a wall and in between them like were I guess just to keep it preserved or so it wouldn't bend or anything but it wasn't in its own case it wasn't in its own plastic or wasn't framed it was just kind of in between two framed pictures there was a literal newspaper from 1892 and it was the one with like that was it had like a the front page story of lizzie borden killing her family which it makes me feel like that was the paper that like that came to lizzie

borden's house um really freaked me out and also i just want to say it was a bad week in fall river massachusetts because they really only paid attention to that as the front page, like front page news. But on that same front page news, like a little baby got like caught by an eagle and fell off a cliff. What? There was like $30 million in 1892 got stolen from a train or something. Like it was a bad week. What?

Lizzie Borden was the only thing people cared about. She fucking took the cake, the Johnny cake. She did. Okay, here. Here's the pictures. I'm going to send them to you now. But it was just wild because I was literally holding pictures of, like, I shouldn't have been allowed to touch this. There's no way.

And I was like, how is this not encased in glass? Okay, add. Jeez, what is wrong with me? Am I, like, an old person now? Send. Yes. Okay, I'm sending that's you okay yes um i just took as many pictures as i could of it because i was like i should not be allowed to touch this like this is literally from 1892 i felt like nicholas cage holding the declaration of independence yes yes yes i was like how is this not falling apart in my hands but it was just personal my text i sent i texted

it to you but it's still it's got the little blue bar i'll wait i'll wait it's cooking hang on but that's interesting though because you think about like you wouldn't be able to go to say like i don't think at least like a family who was slaughtered or killed in the last like couple years and like sleep on their cow you know what i mean like i think it's the time and the fact that it's become such an like a urban like a mythos around it i don't know i think that probably adds to it did they just send to you uh yeah um yes hang on do you know what i mean though no it's it's so wild it's so wild and it was it was the thing that was crazier though was like i felt like i could

just take this stuff from the house if i wanted to and no one would have known it was like how why is this just lying around i'm assuming people will want to see this if they're on youtube yeah we can also send this to our um oh yeah we can probably put this in the instagram right yeah wow this is cool though i mean it was just like i was literally holding it like i was at a table and reading it and i was like the fact that someone someone found this in 1893 or 1992 and kept it it's 100 years older than me and i was just reading it i was like that this shouldn't be allowed and i was reading it in lizzie borden's basement where she hid the murder weapon and it's an actual paper it's not like a copy the the paper like the paper wow and if you flip to

one of those pages the one that looks like this it's the five thousand dollar reward that lizzie put in for like looking for the murderers of her parents which is so wild it says five thousand dollar reward the above reward will be paid to anyone who may secure the arrest and conviction of the person or persons who occasioned the death of mr andrew jay borden and wife signed emma jay borden and lizzie a borden i love and wife classic well it was it was actually their stepmom people don't talk about that a lot but it was yes it's true anyway i talked a lot about it but the last thing i want to say is if you want to get as fired up as i am about the lizzie borden house um unfortunately this tour that we did is not going to be around anymore because the house is being sold to another person who apparently is making some grave changes to the

way that this place is run and so right now it's just overnight tours and the people who work there are very uh like i said they're like all they do is research Lizzie Borden stuff. They're huge fans and huge experts and they take it as respectfully as possible. Apparently they've made their own friendly relationships with the spirits there. And so it's just kind of like a happy little space where, you know, nothing's going on. But the new hands that are taking on this house apparently are going to make this into a sideshow at least that's what the people who work there told me they are pissed they clearly are losing their jobs in a couple weeks and have no problem letting people know

how this is gonna go and apparently there's going to be an axe throwing game outside the house apparently the new people are also getting are trying to get a liquor license so that way drunk people can go in there and oh yikes and throw axes oh boy yeah imagine you you died from an axe and now in the house where you died there's an axe throwing game people like taking shots and like throwing i mean yikes yeah it's a little yeah it's very icky and so um i guess the other the new guy is more interested in the ghosts of the house versus the history that's what that's how it was said to me and so uh in the words of one of the people who worked there if the new managers wanted this house

to shake with ghosts he's gonna get that then because all of the ghosts are just gonna be pissed that these drunk people are fucking around their house. So anyway, I didn't have any super spooky experiences. But I did hear that Zach Bagans, when he was there, he actually ran out of the house at 2 in the morning, despite what the episode looks like. But anyway, I've spoken a lot about this. Sorry. But I just wanted to tell you guys, like, I literally touched the newspaper that I'm pretty sure Lizzie Borden was holding. Like, how else did it end up in that house? So that is really, really why I mean, it's really

wild. Anyway, there you go. The end. And that's why I have a mess in my head. I've been waiting to hear about this. I'm so glad I finally got the story. Got the scoop, you know? Well, there you have it. I'm sorry for completely taking over the the intro of this. No, it was well deserved. I saw a lot of people asking me to talk about it. And I kept saying to wait until the episode came out. So there you have it. Oh, I'm so glad. Well, anyway, I've got a story for you.

Can you ask me why I drink? Sorry. Oh, yes, I can. Sorry. Why do you drink? Well, listen, it's been a bad morning. I completely forgot to ask you, but it did sound like you were struggling earlier so i i'm sorry i completely no no i wanted you to ask on the show um tell me what's going on uh so you know i love my cats okay you know i love them and they're fine. Don't worry. But okay, listen, here's what happened. This morning at like 530 in the morning, the animals woke me up

because they get hungry and they wake me up and sometimes I just give in and I go down and take them out and feed them. And I came back upstairs and I walked up to my bed and I was about to get in and I realized something wet was on the ground and I realized it was water my water had spilled and I was like that's odd and then I realized that so I have this pillow pet okay named Dolph Dolph Lundgren and it's a dolphin pillow pet and Moony Moonshine is obsessed with this pillow pet and like thinks it's his mom and like every night like sleeps on it and so last night sometime in the middle of the, Mooney was there and I was like trying to push him away because he was like clawing and being all, you know, in my grill. So I put Dolph on the side of the bed and said, OK, you go over here, Moon. And I went back to sleep.

I guess sometime during the night, Moon pushed Dolph off the bed by accident and knocked over a glass of water a large large tumbler of water and i hadn't noticed it till like six in the morning and then i realized there was a strange sound coming from somewhere in the corner and by the way actually this morning blaze was like christine you had just cleaned your trash pile like there was not even a trash pile okay no it would have been so much worse if my trash pile were there oh well that's good okay no trash pile so I'm like okay it can't be that bad it's just water and then I hear this noise and I'm like what is this noise I'm like opening all my drawers going like what is this strange like it sounded like

crackling of a radio like static and like hissing and I was like what is that is that like a radio I couldn't figure it out can my flashlight on all of a sudden I picked up my laptop and I heard it and it was fucking hissing and crackling and I was like it smells like burning plus like it's burning and so I guess somehow my laptop had been like on a stack of books or I don't know like next to my nightstand and the water had somehow like like a lake seeped in and started like I mean crap like it was smoking like sizzling oh my god like had you had you gone out that morning that it would have been on fire no I don't think it would have been on fire but it was like shorting out or something I don't know what was going on inside it but it was like sizzling and shorting out and so I picked it up

obviously put it like on a bunch of towels and like just went back to bed because I was like I guess I have to wait a few hours anyway it's completely dead um oh no it's completely fried uh so you have a warranty uh yeah I have apple care but they don't cover liquid spills oh no christine and also was your was anything backed up yes no nothing was backed up and that's where my i mean i had beach sandy episodes that we've already recorded that are nowhere else um so you have to re-record all those re-record the episodes i have to uh rewrite some important stuff I've been working on. Oh, my God. I'm using Blaze's laptop right now.

It seems to be working fine, but I just want to warn everybody, I'm not 100% sure if I'll be able to put a YouTube video out because that's where all my software was, like my editing software. Oh, my God. So everything, thank God I'd already released the zach baggins video because oh my god you would be out of sight i would be gone you'd been like and i'm pregnant i can't do this commit me yeah i'm pregnant the end okay is that good enough for you anyway it's just been like a disaster and i mean i'll tell you more about it later because nobody cares about the

details but wowza i lost so much stuff um and if anybody knows seriously how to like rescue files off of a sizzling like it was crackling like a radio um so and it's a macbook pro so if anyone knows how to find my files please hit me up for real that's a horrible day that's a horrible this is a horrible day i'm so sorry i just felt bad and i was like oh my god and it's not even the cat just wanted to cuddle with the dolphin it's not even like i could be mad at him you know anyway and obviously i'm like i should have backed it up but like everybody i feel like that's just like everyone's like i should back this up and then let this be a lesson though when you've got a little baby running around oh good point just saying like maybe this needed to happen so that way it's like i don't know something else

really important doesn't get damaged because you left it out i don't know oh my gosh anyway sorry i know that's like so not as exciting as lizzie borden but are you kidding this is adrenaline inducing like the lizzie borden thing had some mystery to it but this has fear like fear indeed poor blaze woke up uh this morning and was like hey and pointed at the bathroom and i was like don't i don't want to talk about it because my laptop was literally like stacked upside down on a bunch of towels and he was like what and i was like don't even go there i'm not having you just buy a bucket of rice and just shut apparently that's a myth for laptops so don't do that okay good um apparently works for phones not computers i looked it up and they were like the one thing you should you look it up on your computer

shut up the one thing you're not supposed to do is hit the power button right away because the electrical current can like make it worse so of course i read that after i had hit the power button 25 times just want to warn everybody um also if there is no youtube video i'm so sorry i really did try um but maybe we're maybe if i don't know maybe i figured out but that's that anyway do you have to rebuy all of that software and everything again too no because it was like Adobe. Oh, okay. I just don't know if this computer will have room to download it. You know what I mean?

Wow. So we'll see. But anyway, it's just been one of those days. Oh, my God, Christine. Okay. Well, I got nothing. But I have a recliner, so I might just chill out in that later. I got a little baby recliner meant for like a veggie tail or something um okay if you are glasses wearers like us or if you are screen

lookers like us you are exposed to blue light probably daily and a major source of blue light comes from phones tablets computers tvs kindles LED light bulbs, pretty much any brightness your eyes looking at might have some blue light to it. And luckily with Felix Grey, they have lenses that can help you from any eye strain. That's right. Felix Grey glasses filter 15 times more blue light from screens than any other clear blue light lenses to help restore your balance. The original optical lenses relieve most eye strain symptoms from daily screen time. And they also have these advanced sleep glasses, which of course are the ones Blaze has, that relieve serious daily eye strain. And they were specially designed so if you have to use your screen late at night, which

I think all of us do, let's be real, it helps improve your sleep quality. Finally, a pair of glasses designed for the 21st century. Go to felixgrayglasses.com slash drink to shop glasses that work as hard as you do. That's F-E-L-i-x-g-r-a-y glasses.com slash drink free shipping free exchanges 30-day money-back guarantee felix great glasses.com slash drink here's a story for you oh i refilled my water cup by the way it was this cup it was my and that's why we drink um tumblr a little too on the nose that's a little ironic and i want to i want to tell everybody don't worry it's not like spillable it's just because it dumped upside down in the straw hole at the top seeped out over a

period of hours so i promise that um this will not happen to you if you buy one of these check them out atwwdmerch.com not so bringing endorsement it will ruin your day uh okay your turn i have an urban legend it's a quick one but a good one yay this is from uh england in the norfolk area uh this is the urban legend slash ghost cryptid beast thing this is the story of the black shuck what's that uh apparently it is believed to have been one of sir arthur conan doyle's inspirations for the hound of the baskervilles cool interesting enough uh sir doyle sure loves sticking his nose in all of my fucking stories he does there's also according to cambridge ghost tours this is a quote from them talking about the black shuck oh and my mother is calling here's a picture of what she

looks like when she calls lucille blue it's r.i.p uh i gotta hang up on her um so cambridge ghost tour says the black shuck is quote a ghostly black dog that has been sighted for centuries with large red eyes sometimes just one in its head as large as a saucer uh and thick shaggy black fur snarling mouth and it's an omen of doom okay black dogs seem to be an omen of doom i think that that's one of the creepiest symbolism things ever the. Yes. Also buying one of our tumblers is an omen of doom for your laptop. Well, no, it's not. Some say that the black shuck should be. Black cat, though.

Black cat might be. Because that's who did this to me. So just to warn you. The best friend of the black hellhound. Yes. They're definitely related somehow. Some say the black shuck could be an escort to death um which like you said is a common lore that if you see a black dog it's usually your

escort particularly to hell um and others say this was a random i didn't find this on anywhere else but on one source i did find that apparently the black shuck could also just be helping women walk home at night oh that's nice which like i know that's that's the only shuck could also just be helping women walk home at night oh that's nice which like i know that's that's the only time i'm gonna mention anything like that but um that should be the whole story i think if you if you see one maybe tell yourself that to comfort temporarily comfort yourself no no he's just making sure i get home safe and that'll be it so uh there's one author named w.a. Dutt, and they described the black shuck as, quote, to meet the black shuck is to be warned that your death will occur before the end of the year. That's not good.

No, it is not. He also says, I don't know where he got this research from, but apparently the black shuck is very fond of storms and that the black shuck quote loves to raise his awful voice above the howling of the gale so oh i'm hearing it's a dog that likes to have a screaming competition with other loud things with the wind yeah with the wind um what else wa dutt this is a very large uh passage of his but this is like one of the better descriptions I found of the Black Shuck. So I wanted to read it for you. The Black Shuck, quote, takes the form of a huge black dog and prowls along dark lanes and lonesome field footpaths, where although his howling makes the hearer's blood run cold, his footfalls make no sound.

So he's mouthy, but you can't hear him walking up on you. He's mouthy, but you can't hear him walking up on you. He's mouthy! You can hear, oh, you may know him at once should you see him by his fiery eyes. He has but one, and that, like the cyclops, is in the middle of his head. But such an encounter might bring you to the worst of luck. It is even said to meet him is to be warned that your death will occur before the end of the year so you will so you will do well to shut your eyes if you hear him howling shut them even if you are uncertain whether it is the dog fiend or the voice of the wind you hear

so basically even if it's a windy day just close your eyes the whole time because walk around like with your eyes shut just seems dangerous to do okay uh should you never set eyes on our norfolk snarl yow which apparently is the nickname w.a. dutt gave him snarl yow you may perhaps doubt his existence and like other folks tell us that his story is nothing but the old scandinavian myth of the black hound of odin brought to us by the vikings who long ago settled down on the norfolk coast so from that, I was able to at least figure out that the lore is on a windy day. You might hear this black shuck competing with the sound of the wind by howling. And if you hear that, just cover your eyes because to even look at him means that you'll die within the year.

Also, one of the alleged earliest origins or references to the black shuck could be that it is the Black Hound from Odin. Right. So because he compares the Black Shock to Odin's hounds, I just wanted to give the hounds a shout out because apparently their names are Freckie and I think Jerry or Gary. But I think it's hysterical that one of odin's hounds who like fights off giants and shit it could be named gary or jerry either one is pretty either pretty great like damn it jerry like fight those fight them faster so what is how do you spell shuck uh like shock with a u oh okay like shucking corn shucking corn yes okay but yeah so just wanted to give a shout out to big jerry big gary and frecky who apparently those words uh translate to greedy and ravenous

oh okay um so uh but yeah so one of the early origins could be that it comes from odin folklore um according to dialect matters the word shuck is actually anglo-saxon for the word it's the anglo-saxon word skooka which means to be feared oh and another theory is that the word shuck in some places has a longer word which is shucky which means shaggy which is what this dog is supposed to look like so that's why they freckles and shaggy i actually kind of like this freckles gary and shaggy uh so thinking about just because i wanted to look up the word shuck and what it meant in like old english times i found some other slang from old english times and just because the story's a little shorter i wanted to know if you wanted to play a little guessing game on what some of these.

Okay. This is a Mental Floss article. Also John Green was featured in it. I don't know what kind of weird partnership they had for this, but excellent. Cross promo. Cross promo. It was called 83 Old Slang Phrases

We Should Bring Back. So I have quite a few here. I'll run through just a few of them, but I did find some more and that's why we drink on brand words that i'll have you guess but i just wanted to run through a few for you but i think we should bring back um so wet sock is a limp handshake uh checks out yeah uh happy cabbage is something that we both love it's money for items you don't need but it makes you happy oh yeah i was like i actually am not a huge fan of cabbage m i don't know where you got that

i guess it's because like green right happy green stuff yeah that's true yeah um happy returns is vomiting no way i love that ironic because i don't think you're happy as it's happening no it's probably sarcastic yeah uh a pang wangle oh dear is to go along cheerfully in spite of minor misfortunes so i guess so i guess i'll go just keep on going i don know. And that's why we drink the pangwangle edition. The pangwangle of podcasts. In the ketchup means in the red. Oh, okay. That makes sense. Yep.

To cop a mouse is to get a black eye. Ooh. Which I guess makes sense because, like, a black eye kind of looks like a little mouse. Does it? Yeah, the coloring of it. It's like it's a weird little oval. Purple gray color. I don't know. I'm trying to think like maybe it looks like a mouse on your face um speaking of faces a giggle mug is someone who's habitually smiling oh uh if you cheat on someone

you're going on a left-handed honeymoon which is uh mean to the left-handed people yeah it's kind of not nice and if you know too much like if you're like too big for your bridges uh sorry britches bridges yikes uh you might have bright disease or like you're too smart for your own good aha aha okay my favorite one that has nothing to do with them that's why we drank i'm just going to start with this one what do you think they call sausages? Who? Oh, like in old timey slang? Yeah.

Oh, man. It's easier the other way around if you tell me the slang and then I guess what it means. I know, but I liked it too much. I wanted to be the one. Oh, okay. Sausages are called bags. Oh, mystery. Wait, if you had asked me what are bags? Oh, mystery.

I would have given some real questionable answers. maybe it's for the best okay here are uh some and that's why we drink this isn't and that's why i drink either but i it's kind of like a mystery yeah i wanted to i wanted to hear your opinion on this okay what do you think a sauce box is it's a drunk person close it's your mouth your sauce box where you put all the sauce or where you're sauced and your stupid shit comes out yeah uh-huh and then uh okay sauce box the next three have to do with and that's why i drink in suddenly okay um so what do you think focus your audio means oh god uh focus your audio shut up i don't know it means listen oh okay yeah shut up and listen it it checks out focus your audio like dial in on me yeah yeah yeah uh what do you think flesh creep is oh oh i want to say um i want to say skin slippage, but I know that's not true.

It's basically goose cam. Oh, what is it called? Flesh creep. Okay, that actually makes so much sense. I should have thought of that. I bet you a lot of you guessed that. And then the third one is what do you think a pine overcoat is? A pine overcoat.

Maybe when the hair stands up on end. Like you have like the hair stands up on end. Like you have like your hair stands up on end. It's a coffin. Oh, never mind. I was like, you know, I thought I got it with that. A coffin. Yeah, okay. Never mind.

No, no. Pine box. Got it. There was no way you were going to actually get it, I don't think. So I just wanted to hear what your answers would be. But so in terms of, and that's why we drink a coffin as a pine overcoat, goose cam is flesh creep and listen is focus your audio. Flesh creep is excellent.

I love flesh creep. That's, that's probably my new favorite. I, so we'll, I hope to hear it out of your sauce box. Then you will only if you focus your audio. And then just because this is also,

and that's why you drank here are some of the old timey slang from this article uh that mean drunk having your flag out soapy eyed seeing snakes can canned up zazzled which i think is great owled striped squiffed and swacked there are so many words for drunk i love it so i i personally like zazzled and seeing snakes seeing snakes is good too i like that maybe because you see everything kind of like wavy yeah yeah yeah and maybe doubled um interesting so i mean it makes sense i guess john green's an author right so maybe he was just like let me let me and he knows everything also right or is that hank green yeah that's hank green okay no john green wrote like looking for alaska he wrote the he he writes a lot of um young adult books yes correct i think he wrote um did he write turtles all the

way down i think he didn't he write fault in your Stars. Turtles All the Way Down was by John Green. Yes. Look at you. Wow. Listen, I love some YA. All right. All right, everybody. Wait, are he and Hank brothers?

Yeah. Okay. I see. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love Hank Green too. Do you follow him on TikTok? I do.

He's very fun. And that seems like something he would know a lot about is random old timey slangs. It does. I assumed they were the same person. No, you're totally right. You're totally right. Like they, those two would just be so much fun to hang out with. I feel like you'd learn so much.

Green Brothers, are you listening? Hello. We would like to be friends with you. So anyway, thank you uh john green and mental floss for that article so in another article i found that the first written account going back to the black shuck the first written account aside from it potentially being like scandinavian lore with odin was an 1127 in peter borrow peterborough england uh apparently this in this account it was when mr abbott henry moved to town

happened at the exact same time as him and this is a quote from that account it was the sunday where they sing excurge choir which apparently is a chant oh and many men saw and heard huntsmen hunting the huntsmen were black huge uh hideous rode on black horses rode on black goats and their hounds were jet black with eyes like saucers and horrible so imagining it's kind of like a headless horseman kind of situation. They have their heads, but they're riding around. Everything about them is like shadowy and dark. This was seen in the very dear park of Peterborough and in all the woods that stretch from that same town to Lincolnshire, Stanford. sounding and winding their horns reliable witnesses who kept watch in the night declared that they might have been as there might have been as well as 20 or 30 of them winding their

horses as they as near they could tell so witnesses say that there were 20 to 30 hellhound things being chased by huntsmen uh and they stayed in the area through lent all the way until easter which was like about a solid 50 days so people in 1127 were having a rough two months. Actually 40 days. Is it? Lent is 40 days. Whatever. My bad.

And the event that this comes from. So I don't know if the account was like, it came across to me as if this was like a real, in real time, real life, solid account. I don't know if it was like a from a book or something but it sounds a lot like this event where they saw a bunch of huntsmen uh chasing after these mythical creatures it has a lot of similar literary literary motifs to um the wild hunt which uh so the wild hunt was a concept in the 1800s by jacob grim aka one of the grim brothers hey it was very popular in northern european folklore and i just used the wikipedia

definition to this um there was a lot of definitions i just went with wikipedia's but the concept or the literary concept of a wild hunt is that they quote typically involve a soul raving chase led by a mythological figure and or escorted by a ghostly or supernatural group of hunters passing in wild pursuit. And the hunters are generally souls of the dead or ghostly dogs. Sometimes they're fairies, elves or Valkyries. So this account, I don't know if it's legitimate or or not but it sounds a lot like it could have just been one of the first wild hunts that got written about right and there have been other hellhounds that have been chased in wild hunt motifs before all throughout the uk this just seems to be kind of like a running folklore concept so in yorkshire there's a hellhound

called the bar guest uh in leeds there's one called padfoot which i wonder if that is anything similar to harry potter and then in wales there's one called the conanon and uh some lore says that they only hunt between christmas and 12th night apparently they're accompanied by a quote fearsome hag named Matilda of the Night. So there's just all these, like, random stories about some scary mythological ghost dog. And huntsmen are chasing it through the town. It's interesting that it, like, crosses over so many different ways. Yeah. And those were all just in the UK.

But, I mean, I feel like in a lot of folklore, wherever you are, you hear about, like, this, like, like you know this battling against a mythological creature you know so i remember the scariest ghost tour i ever did and like as you guys can probably guess we've done a lot of ghost tours but the scariest one i ever did was in alexandria virginia when i was living in dc and my ex-boyfriend and i went and he like wasn't he it was not his you know thing um and then i tend to i guess attract people who are like not interested in creepy paranormal stuff we're weird enough yeah that's true we don't need more um but uh yeah we went on this tour and our tour guide was romanian and she was telling us like personal stories of the black dog lore from her hometown and we were walking around at night in alexandria which is already a very like old creepy town i remember that night

and i was sleeping in a dorm room i literally hung sheets on the windows i was so scared like i really yeah i don't know what it was about that tour but i think it was a tour guide she scared me so badly and she like she knew what she was doing but it was all about that black dog and like it doesn't sound like something that could like truly terrify you but I was hanging up sheets in the windows like I was putting chairs in front of the door I was like this dog is gonna drag me to hell I don't know oh my gosh scared me so bad but so she from Romania also had a lot of stories and folklore from where she was from yeah and i i mean also like if you told me that there was a a flock or a gathering of like a bunch of one-eyed dogs chasing you in the night i mean and they're apparently like massive beasts like they're not just dog sized so i'd be pretty scared

especially if i had no other like frame of reference to compare it to and it meant you were gonna die yeah exactly like why wouldn't you just want to avoid that just in case it's real you know so uh anyway all this is saying the first time we see a potential written reference in the 1100s could have been just a very early version of a wild hunt motif right oh right and so next time we see a reference to the black shark is actually in 1577 and it's the most famous account um there's this guy named abraham fleming i almost said abraham lincoln um you ever heard of him honest abe telling me this tale uh so abraham fleming he was a clergyman a poet a translator an author he was a multi-hyphenated god apparently he wrote a book called a strange and terrible

wonder oh that's fun where he mentions the black shuck and this is what he says about the black shuck about one of the times where it attacked people quote the black shuck entered two churches portrayed as the devil himself in dog form and at the one of at the first of two churches that it attacked in that time span it rung the necks of two churchgoers so it also has opposable thumbs or maybe with its mouth uh i'm stupid yes maybe it has thumbs listen i'm not here to judge i don't know hulk hands he just grabs you it's got fingers actually if it had, I think I'd be way more scared. If it was running and like you just see like a crow. It had hands.

Nothing. No, no, no. So the next day after it attacked those two churchgoers, it went to another church nearby. And apparently amongst like thunder and lightning that was over the city, it attacked a second congregation. like thunder and lightning that was over the city, it attacked a second congregation. According to Fleming, quote, the thing, and I'm also paraphrasing because it was much longer,

so I shortened it down. But Fleming says, quote, the thing entered, placing himself on a main beam, and suddenly he gave a swing down through the church. And there also, as before, he slew two men and a lad. So he killed two men and a boy. Oh, no. And burned the hand of another person that was among the rest of the company, of whom diverse were blasted. So I think exploding and getting hit by explosion.

I don't know. Sounds like another euphemism for drunk. This mischief thus wrought, he flew with wonderful force out of the church in a hideous and hellish likeness so he's just going from church to church and like swinging from the beams swinging the tarzan again uh so on his way out of on his way out of the church the shuck apparently caused the church tower to fall because he was like being so chaotic. The church tower fell off of the roof. He was being so chaotic.

I'm sorry. It feels like he was really too jazzed. He and his many fingers just knocking shit over throughout the town. His many fingers and his singular eye. He knocked down the church tower so the bells came crashing through the roof. Uh-oh. It really just feels like chaos. Yes, it does. Apparently, the shuck on his way out also left scorched claw marks on the church doors.

They're apparently still there to this day, and they are nicknamed the Devil's Fingerprints. That's pretty cool. And the church, by the way, is called the Blytheburg Church. And the first one where he rung two necks with his fingers uh that was Saint Mary's church sorry it's not funny but it's kind of funny so yeah the on the Blytheburg church doors they're still called the devil's finger that's pretty cool although a lot of people I think like yeah this is spooky but realistically those claw marks could have just come from normal dogs. Especially, so there's one podcast, shout out, it's called Strange Animals Podcast.

But apparently, this is a quote from them, back then dogs were allowed in church, but they sometimes barked or started fights with other dogs, at which point they had to be taken outside. And many churches employed a man called the dog whipper to put dogs out. Sometimes by using, hang on, it's funnier than whipping. Okay. Because everything is. As they say, nothing's less funny.

This is what the dog whipper would do. Sometimes he would use a big pair of metal tongs that were called dog tongs. And he would pick up the dog. He would grab it. He would grab the fighting dog and drag it outside of the church like a salad tong what is happening imagine geo is pissing you off and you just take like some big paul bunion tongs and just honestly i might need some for my bed toy crane at like a movie theater or an arcade like just just craning it's like one of those

uh things you buy at the zoo with like a dinosaur head and you can pick stuff up. And I can just sit in my bed so I don't need to get up and just tong him away from the litter box. It would be also like imagine the forearm strength someone has. Oh, valid. I mean, because a dog. Were all the dogs chihuahuas or something? I was going to say, even a chihuahua, you'd need some force. You'd need some like some like core you go

oh yeah that's why your legs that's why only the strongest can be the dog whippers i don't like the name dog whipper that part's not great what else do you call them salad tosser yeah yeah i mean that's you're using tongs um right i mean there must be something better king king tong i don't know okay we'll shop it we'll shop it yeah so in 1977 is another reference so we're really time traveling here 1977 yeah oh okay our parents were alive so in 1977 the black shark was mentioned in an investigative scientific journal they called themselves a borderline scientific investigative journal, which I appreciate. Love that. I appreciate the honesty.

It was called Lantern, this journal. And this was a quote about the Black Shuck in the Lantern article. One of the legendary aspects of Shuck's character is foretelling death. The impression generally is that everyone who encounters him will meet with the misfortune usually death within a short time or else somebody else close to them will so uh that's again another reference to like it's an omen to death because either you're gonna die or someone you love i think what's spook what's spooky about it to me is that it's not like oh you see it and you're gonna die it's gonna kill you it's sort of like it's an like, oh, you see it and you're going to die. It's going to kill you. It's sort of like it's an omen. And then you have to live with that fear of like,

oh my God, is something going to happen to me? Like I feel like that is what scares me about it. The psychological terror is much worse. That freaks me out. To be fair, just to add a little spice to the dread, some versions apparently suggest that if you mention you saw the black shuck within a year of your encounter you won't die but you will have horrible bad luck and i don't know if that's once or forever honestly and that's the other thing i

remember her saying too is like the more you think about it the and the more you draw it to you and i remember putting sheets up on the windows like oh no like i'm just continuing the cycle i just i'm gonna hear little claw marks on my window i couldn't stop thinking about it oh my gosh so anyway one of the writers for this uh journal his name's ivan uh ivan bunn and he says that one of the people in his own investigative group actually saw the black shock in 1893 um 1893 yeah so i guess like this group has been around for at least like a 90 year old investigate okay it must be or the people before him oh okay okay stories behind but this is a quote at rockland norfolk one night, a man and his companion. Companion.

Wink, wink. Okay. Are we, are we, you know. His roommate. And his companion were driving along a lane. Maybe lover's lane, as I like to think of it. When suddenly, right in their path stood a huge uncanny dog, and the driver pushed on in spite of his companion's warning but as the cart touched the thing the i guess the beast the air was alive with flames and a hideous sulfurous stench loaded the atmosphere within a short time the overbold driver died and shuck

has not been seen since in these parts so this is also the first time we're hearing that he's stinky like i haven't heard that before honestly that description sounds like my laptop this morning. Like, sulfur, smoking, fire. Maybe, like, me showing up. Bad luck. Yeah, my companion was there. What I don't get is, like, why did the companion keep driving directly into that large dog? I just feel like that doesn't even make sense.

Maybe it was, like, kind of the thought of, like, when you see a deer on the road like don't slam on the brakes they say hit it like yeah because like swerve yeah like as much as i feel like as much as you don't want to hit an animal like you have a better chance of survival if you just fucking like ran yeah because if you hit a tree you're gonna yeah yeah that's true but But I feel like that doesn't seem like, I feel like that's a lot to happen in like a millisecond. I also feel like that's a driving wives tale that happened after 1893. Like, true, true, true, true, true. Yeah, I don't know.

Anyway. I don't know. Or maybe they knew what it was. Like, he's like, that's that ominous ghostly beast. Keep driving. Oh, right. Maybe they didn't think it was a real dog. They thought it was the shark.

If you drive through it, it'll be a ghost and you won't have anything. Maybe. I don't know. It's a bold thought. But you know what? It didn't work, okay? So there's another guy in 1908 who says that he was walking home once and he, quote, suddenly saw an animal that seemed to be like a large black dog. Wait a second. There were no cars in 1893 1893 were there so it must have been a carriage must have been a carriage sorry that just occurred to me that we're talking about driving a deer and i'm

like wasn't this in 1893 okay my bad were deer in 1893 like at what point they've been invented like at what point in their evolution were they still a fish i'm confused okay so uh all right this guy was walking home he suddenly saw an animal quote that seemed to be a large black dog appear quite suddenly out of the hedge and run across the road quite close in front of me i was just going to call it and send it home when it suddenly changed shape and turned into a black donkey standing on its hind legs this creature too had glowing eyes uh which appeared to be almost as big as saucers i looked at it i looked at it in astonishment for a minute and then it suddenly vanished this sounds like a completely different creature because one it has two eyes also it is turning into a donkey also it's a donkey

so i don't know if this is maybe chupacabra or something i'm confused um anyway also in 1980 a guy named craig says that one time he uh saw one uh charge across the road and apparently uh when he looked out to it he saw it running away but didn't turn into mist and vanish before his eyes and apparently it looked like a dog wolfhound kind of breed uh it was quote wiry and either graying or muddy i can honestly say that no other dog i've ever seen looked like that and then also the black shark apparently was so popular is so popular in the norfolk area that there's one path called tower hill lane that a lot of encounters have happened on and so locals actually now just call it shucks lane oh and according to a news article called hounded out of time black shucks lesson in the anthroposine uh sure this is a quote from that article to this

day it is said that the shuck roams during storms forcing onlookers to negotiate the crumbling cliff tops in the darkness as they are pursued by the thundering bounds and howls of the phantom hound shuck's presence on these cliffs is connected to the landscape itself and legend tells how the dog rises from the depths of the nearby beast and bump before making his way along the ridgeway where he paces the streets before leaping into the churchyard and disappearing and the only update since has been in 2014 where near those two churches where those people were killed by something we still are not sure of um in the 1500s there was a seven foot long 200 pound skeleton of a dog found what and they think that that might be the skeleton of the Black Shuck. Wait, for realsies? For realsies. Holy crap. Seven foot long, 14 stone, which is about 200 pounds.

A skeleton of a dog was found in Suffolk near the two churches that the Black Shuck allegedly killed people in 1577. Scary. So scary. And that is the Black Shuck. Wow. Something about those dogs freaks me out i i definitely think this one is like for sure a lore i mean every like 400 years there'd be a new written reference about it that seems and it's like a dog that vanishes sometimes yeah yeah it's

just like a dark shadowy dog but something about like the omen part of it freaks me out probably because it's sort of like demonic at that whole i feel like that omen part of it freaks me out probably because it's sort of like demonic at that whole i feel like that's the part that has to have carried this energy the whole time yes like it could kill you and that's what since the 1100s yeah i feel like people are drawn to like bad luck you know any sort of like omen that portends death or bad luck like that's a very uh okay also just a heads up the internet says cars were invented in 1886 so before everybody asks me on twitter i apologize but i'm just around for seven years i don't know yeah so like who knows if he actually had one

yeah he would have had to be like when were deer invented when we're dear it's gonna be like john deer tractors when were deer invented It's going to be like John Deere tractors. When were deer invented? Let's see. Oh, well, it's pretty close. Four million years ago. So I feel like that... That's a good range. Yeah, I don't think it was like that long before.

I guesstimate we were pretty close. Yeah, we were pretty close. Now look up what school did M. Schultz go to? Because that always blows my mind. What? What school did M. Schultz go to because that always blows my mind what what school did m schultz go to has this just been like go to it's like google is oh i have never seen that before like google is trolling me like fuck my master's degree fuck excuse me my college experience clown college that's nuts it doesn't even send you to a link that says clown college like google just has the answer available that is nuts i'm gonna type in what school did christine shiver go to it doesn't do that for

you it tells my high school no oh well now everybody knows i don't care i don't well oh where did i like this question where did atwwd meet christine where did they meet you wait a minute do you think they meant eva like where did we meet eva i don't know i don't know it sounds like a pretty deep question but like you can ask like what how old is m like nothing else pops up with like direct i have an answer from literally is is prepared it's the top yeah you're right it's not even a link it's just like google knows the answer and you can't question google on this anyway so deer were invented four million years ago and i went to clown college the end this is like what else do you need to know about the world nothing nothing that's all you need to know about the world? Nothing. Nothing. That's all you need to know. Oh, beautiful stuff. All right, Amethy, I have a tale for you.

A spooky tale. This is the story of Harold Shipman. I don't know who that is, but I'm excited to hear. Okie dokie, I will tell you. So we are in the UK this week. We are in Greater Manchester in a town called Hyde. And it's right around where the Moors murders took place, which I have not covered, but is like a big one that I've been meaning to. So it's on the list.

Cool. So it's March 1998. And there seems to be a growing suspicion among local medical practices in Hyde. Undertaker Deborah Massey, who worked at a local funeral parlor, notices that one medical practice in Manchester and particularly has had an alarmingly high death rate. Oh, OK. I love a good medical malpractice story. If malpractice is like murder, does murder fall under malpractice or is malpractice an

accident? Hmm. I guess malpractice is not an accident because that's the whole point is like you did something um yeah i think hmm i would guess malpractice maybe is more negligence and exactly yeah and murder you have to be the opposite of negligence so you have to be really intentional i guess and thus it's manslaughter in which case it would be malpractice yeah malpractice no you're exactly right negligent act or omission that causes injury to a patient

um so yeah outright murder i don't know if there's a term for that except for murder super super malpractice super duper ultra malpractice super unprofessional now practice doing kind of the opposite of the hippocratic oath so there is this like strange kind of feeling that this woman has deborah massey and she's like there's like a weirdly high death rate coming out of one particular practice in town so the medical practice in question is that of a man named harold chipman otherwise known in town as dr death oh okay so he like already had the fucking nickname he had a nickname uh and you'll see how can you imagine being the person who's like i have a gut feeling something's not right let me just check and then you're like hi looking for harold shipman they're like oh you mean dr death and you

go well verbatim that's what happens later is there like we're looking into something and this woman's like oh you mean Dr. Death that's literally what happens so how else could it have gone how else could for her to be like oh I guess my gut feeling was right but I wasn't the first to have it so there we go for real like you're completely onto it. So remember that. Okay. Remember the one time in life I was right.

Okay. No, you're always right in my book. Yikes. Not true. But anyway, the medical practice was of Harold Chipman, otherwise known as Dr. Death. He, Harold Chipman is known as one of, if not the biggest serial killer in British history.

What? Dun, dun, dun. I know. He would later be tied to hundreds of deaths of his patients, the majority of whom were women aged between 49 and 90. So he was like, he's one of the UK's biggest serial killers in history. How many do, I'm sure you'll tell later. I'll tell you you but hundreds is

what you've got oh whoa so like this isn't like this isn't jack the ripper oh no my dude this isn't baby games yep tied to hundreds wow so big big time uh his occupation was the perfect he was always known as a kind, thoughtful, friendly doctor at his family practice. He would always go the extra mile for his elderly patients. So a lot of them feared going into the hospital and never coming out again, which is something you see, I think, with older patients sometimes who are afraid that they'll be left at a hospital and not be allowed to come home. And so he put their minds at ease by coming over to their house to kind of like more old-fashioned like he would go treat them at their house and so a lot of people were very pleased with that

kind of service and he sure did that some even said that he would visit them at all hours of the day sometimes even at night and he would walk in and say put the kettle on how are you doing and they would have a cup of tea and he would check in on them but he wasn't visiting just to have a cup of tea and some chit chat he was setting up their murder i was gonna say is he cyaniding the shit out of their drinks or something not cyanide but you're getting there arsenic nope okay i don't know but you're on the right track let's put it that way finally a case i can crack man you are on top of it today my friend wow family members would later find their loved ones at home having

seemingly passed away peacefully uh whereas the truth would obviously be a lot darker so we are going to dig into the harold shipman case and the inquiry that followed dr death here we go so harold frederick shipman sometimes known as fred but i'm going to call him harold because it's just easier it was born on january 14th 1946 good old cap capricorn uh in nottingham to working class devout methodist harold shipman senior who was a lorry driver truck driver for us americans uh and his mother vera he was the middle child and he was his known as his mother's favorite so he was a mama's boy and when he was a teenager his mother diet was diagnosed with terminal lung cancer and this kind of like turned his whole life upside

down when he was 17 he sort of became her caretaker and he would like be by her side at all times as she grew sicker and sicker and they had a doctor do you know the term gp no okay i think that's a more common term in the uk um i think i'm on so many forums now for for like pregnancy forms that i just know the term gp but it's uh it's like a general practitioner so it's like your primary care doctor basically i was gonna say pcp which is also a drug but yeah which is also but no i i if you ever like like if i'm trying to get like a like sign up for an appointment at a doctor they'll i'll see like pcp and i know it means primary care exactly so in the uk they typically say your gp is like your doc your doctor your like main primary care doctor probably easier because you can you know like you said uh mix up differentiate

between literal drugs a an illegal drug and uh a checkup yeah oh well so they had a gp or she had a gp who would come and visit their home regularly. And so Harold was always there kind of watching as the doctor came by and took care of his mother as she grew sicker. And she died on June 21st, 1963, when he was 17 years old. And many have speculated that this event was a huge turning point and would kind of impact the events that happened later in his life for example there are big comparisons between seeing this doctor administering morphine to help his sick mother feel better and then later he was found to be administering large doses of morphine to his own patients so that should answer the question of what what exactly it was wasn't pcp wasn't pcp it was heroin so um was he uh is there ever any speculation that his that he killed his own mom and that was like his first victim or they were

really attached okay he had yeah he just had a reaction to that that people think fueled him because he had actually had no interest in medicine until his mother died and then all of a sudden he was like hell-bent on becoming a doctor so i think just watching the doctor like come by and nobody obviously really knows but they think there's multiple theories but a lot of them hinge on this experience with like watching a doctor take care of his mother gotcha so uh there's a a documentary called born to kill and i watch this on youtube if anyone's interested uh and a doctor dr holmes says that because he was managing his grief oh sorry i skipped a whole line my bad you know how i do my like really like chaotic habits of clicking clicking i i miss that i miss watching your hands have an anxiety attack at all times it's sort of like the rest of me can compose itself if my hands are um and it is it

is i'm not just saying ocd it's it's before anyone yells for sure it's it's full-on ocd um so okay so obviously traumatic event for him he was 17 old. And the way in which he managed his grief is that he would often go running. So the night his mother died, he went out running in his school shorts and shirt for miles and miles in the middle of the night, sometimes in the pouring rain. And this was kind of his way of coping with grief. And some of his classmates were like, it was super weird. But I like i don't who knows how you're gonna react right like grief manifests in very odd ways completely i don't find it that weird like to be you could pretty much do anything after someone you love died and i would justify it

especially as a teenager like you don't know how you're gonna react to something traumatic like that so he would run and so interestingly, in this documentary called Born to Kill, which I found on YouTube, there's a doctor named David A. Holmes who says that because he was managing his grief by this intense exercise, which produces a lot of endorphins, it would have given him a euphoric high, which means his situation, he would have wanted to repeat it over and over to get that same kind of response, which checks out. It does. I mean, I think it's a little. I don't know if that explains his whole like pattern of murder, but it's an interesting theory, I guess. I think it's it sounds I mean, again, I'm not a doctor, but I would get it.

I think it's it sounds I mean again I'm not a doctor but I would get it I guess I also because I don't know what any other option is part of me thinks like running maybe it's just a distraction or like something to get your mind off of it who knows I mean maybe it was euphoric I don't I don't know I could understand like I could understand endorphins but I definitely don't think it would get you the high you need of like killing yeah that's exactly kind of where i was i was like yeah i get that it would maybe boost your mood but i i don't know i don't know he knows more than i do i guess it's just hard for me to equate running with euphoria and i think that's why my brain can't comprehend amen and i do i do know that anytime you do work out you feel good about yourself afterwards so maybe he needed the run to like feel like some semblance like yeah there's definitely i mean endorphins are definitely a very real thing so yeah maybe

that is what was going on anyway so he's obviously heartbroken and all of a sudden he decided he wanted to study medicine uh a lot of people around him thought oh look he wants to get into medicine to help save people after his mother passed away which is pretty common right when like yeah i've seen that after you watch someone go through something medical or if you had you know medical experiences as a kid you grew up to want to continue on yes exactly there was a netflix show i loved i forget the name of it but it was set in new york uh it was like a live not live It was like a docu-series about- Live show.

Live show. A docu-series about a hospital in New York City. And this one neurosurgeon who's like the head of the neurosurgery department was saying after his dad died of, I think, brain cancer or something, he was like really devoted to studying it and learning about it. So definitely something but that's not the case with harold as we'll see oh i see okay never mind so scratch all of that at age 19 he met primrose oxtoby no he didn't yes he did he did not find jk rowling's like lost character Luna Lovegood's cousin yeah Primrose Oxtoby oh my god and does

she become a werewolf by the end of this she's literally an art and design student obviously obviously they're studying at the same university and like five months later she's pregnant so they get married right away they stay together for the rest of his life. Fun fact. Oh, wow. Okay. I didn't see it ending that way. I know.

I love that name, Primrose. Very pretty. I know. Wow. So before this, according to a former teacher speaking to TruTV, quote, I don't think he ever had a girlfriend. In fact, he took his older sister to school dances. They made a strange couple, but then he was a bit strange a pretentious lad so apparently he and his sister would go to dances and like they would dance

very weirdly like it wasn't like they would just go as friends it was like then they would do these weird dances together and people kind of like one on earth just you know how siblings like make up dance routines together i like to imagine it's that that's exactly maybe that's what it is they heard backstreet boys come on and they're like come on we know like we know what's step aside mom get the camcorder we're ready um so according to a report published after shipman's conviction he after he qualified from Leeds Medical University and went on to train as a junior doctor, after 12 months, he was able to practice medicine. And that is where his first murders took place. So the inquiry later discovered that in October of 1972, he had killed a four-year-old girl.

Whoa. Which was an anomaly because typically his victims were much older. Right. anomaly because typically his victims were much older right uh the girl was ill and according to the documentary the born to kill documentary the girl's mother left the room saying please be kind to her and they think he took this as his cue to allow himself to kill her uh like he he misinterpreted what she said as in like like give her mercy yes yes like exactly and i don't know if it was like he actually misinterpreted it or he used it as an excuse um i'm not sure and he definitely intentionally killed her because this have actually been no he fully killed her

like within minutes like his mother went to make a cup of tea said please be kind to her and he killed her and uh really rough because uh the child could have been at least with her mother when she passed but her mom was out making a cup of tea for a few minutes and came back and the daughter was dead yes so in 1974 he joined a medical practice in Todd Morden, Yorkshire as a family practitioner. And up until this point, he had been known to be kind of socially awkward. But all of a sudden, he kind of like blossomed and he became like outgoing and a respected member of the community. So like, I don't know if it was like he was maturing age wise or he just decided he started murdering people and was like, I found my calling. Now I'm now i'm

now i'm like so fun to be around like i'm not sure what happened he got like real uppity about himself like real confident yeah he got confident a switch flipped and all of a sudden he was like really well liked and popular and fun um which obviously was part of the reason it took people so long to even realize what was going on. His colleagues had no idea of his malpractice, but the inquiry into the deaths of his patients took note that at his time in Todd Morden, there was one instance where three of his patients mysteriously passed away within one day. So that was later on looking back.

They realized there were some suspicious things going on, even if we don't know for sure whether they were murders. Gotcha. So overall, there had been a spike in the total amount of deaths in Todd Morton from when he was there. In fact, in 1975, deaths increased by over 50% that year when he showed up. Oh my, 50%? 50%. Oh my god i know now immediately i'm like why did it take so long for people to figure this out it's really hard to believe and alone he certified 22

deaths over the 18 months he spent there and it just wasn't suspicious because a lot of them were much older patients and it was he was just able to say they were old and interesting i wonder then if he had interest in killing other people but yeah this was his safety demographic so he could get away with it you know what that's a great question but he like he just he kept with the older people so he would have the excuse but i wonder if he was really looking at every like 15 to 20 year old and being like i really wish i could right because he did kill a four-year-old and i wonder if that was like something he would have repeated if it were quote unquote less you know safer for him yeah exactly that's a really good question i'm not sure because he definitely had an mo but yeah i could have just been because it was an easy easier excuse out of convenience yeah yes so yeah i'm not totally sure um so he only spent 18 months in

todd warden because he became addicted to opiates oops oh so there is a drug called pethidine which is a narcotic and it's also known as demerol uh and i was like oh demerol i know that and blaze was kind of like well people don't really use that anymore. So I don't really know why I know about it, but I do. But apparently at Blaze's old hospital in L.A., they had a huge sign on the wall that said, we do not prescribe Demerol. Wow. Because it's like such a strong narcotic, I guess, that they try to avoid it. Good to know. Good to know.

Yes. Yes. it um so no good to know yes yes so he i guess would prescribe this to his elderly patients and he even overdosed one of them with it at one point that was one of the one of his murders uh but so he became addicted to pethidine and it became uh a problem so the granddaughter of one of his victims spoke out on the bbc documentaryman Files, which a very British crime story, which sounds like an SNL skit to me, but it's the name. It does sound a little too particularly perfect. Doesn't it sound so on the nose? I found that on Daily Motion.

I couldn't find it anywhere else. Maybe if you're in a different country, you can find it easier. But that was also really helpful and so she told in disgust of how her grandmother had been visited by shipman the trusted doctor of her and her husband during the day and then when shipman went to visit eva at the lion's home one day he basically killed her in front of her husband using pethidine and her husband thought that he the doctor was treating his wife so afterwards he made him a cup of coffee and like thanked him meanwhile ava or eva was in the other room dying of the overdose oh my god so he was just like fucking around and and his patients were like

thanking him for and i assume getting more and more confident over time that like oh look what like he's not even trying to like get away like he's like he did it right in front of the husband exactly he's getting really really bold exactly and like he's administering painkillers so you can sort of look at it as like oh he's trying to make her feel better but i guess she died of a heart attack or whatever but they don't know the doses he's giving them right so he was caught forging prescriptions for pethidine by his colleagues in 1975 and that's when they found out he had this addiction and he was fired and fined 600 pounds for forgery so wow that was

pretty much it uh he had two young children at this point, and he eventually got another job at Donnybrook Medical Center in Hyde in 1977. And he was very open about his addiction and the forgery and his firing. But a board of doctors kind of discussed it and agreed to let him join the practice because he had such a glowing report of being a fabulous, dynamic, and friendly doctor. His patients loved him so much. And he kind of said, listen, I'm sorry. I was going through a tough time. I had an addiction. I'm completely past that.

So they gave him a second chance, basically. Okay. Which is like, yikes. But also, I get why they did. Yeah. If someone's recovered from an addiction i understand why they were like okay you deserve a second chance at your career but also i wish they didn't in this case yeah i i mean like i totally like respect the choice but as someone who knows how

this ends i'm yeah that's that's it's like hindsight it's 2020 so he started working at donnybrook medical center in hyde and he worked as one of seven doctors, and he kept up this great reputation of being loved by his patients. He built trust with them, and he would always go above and beyond, meanwhile just killing them. They just had no idea. Awful. It sounds on par with our show, though. Yes, it does, doesn't it? So far, I can't say I'm surprised after so many episodes like this, but it, you know, it just doesn't get better. It doesn't feel good. Yeah. So he continued murdering and

reporting the deaths as just old age every time. And it would become a myth in some people who supported him later, like, oh, these people would have died anyway. But like, no, because most of them weren't even term. There were only two who one or two who were terminally ill the rest might have been older but they were fine they were like you say the age range was like 49 to 99 or something so like 99 to 90 yeah so if you have parents in their 50s like those are the people you're saying well they would have died anyway yeah or even like 60s or 70s like my dad is 70 and he's like way healthier than i am and i'm like if he just died suddenly i'd be like wait what happened i'd be

really upset like it's not like oh they were so ill that they were bound to die soon you know what i mean like it a lot of these were unexpected deaths um so it's just a myth that that is the case but i think it says a lot about like how people kind of view the elderly sometimes and how like oh well they were gonna die anyway it's like no these were people with families and lives and friends and activities and and also like probably maybe healthy conditions yes probably healthier than i am yeah 100 allison's mom i'm i think is 70 or 71 i would never challenge that woman at a game hell no that woman yes same with my dad like he does more sports and everything than i do in a week a lifetime without question uh she's healthier allison's dad is healthier

my mom's healthier my dad's healthier i every person i know who is several decades older than me is healthier than me also yes exactly so it would make more sense if i just like dropped dead they'd be like well that tracks like you know it was bound to happen uh yeah so it's just like kind of a really dismissive and awful i think to be like well they were gonna die anyway it's like no their families are devastated like whatever yeah so that kind of pisses me off. But anyway, so because these people passed away in their homes, oftentimes asleep, their families kind of just saw it as like, okay, well, they passed away, at least they passed away peacefully at home. You know, thinking, well, they passed away in their sleep, it was peaceful. So people didn't

question it. And they just it wasn't like there was a blood everywhere and someone had been strangled and there was a fight it was like they've died peacefully at home the way everybody wants to go so they just thought well okay at least it was best case scenario and so there's a medical advisor on the shipment inquiry named anise as esmail as esmail i think who uh talked about one specific case of an 84 year old man named joseph bardsley and he said in the morning one of his family had come to see him and he was fine sitting in his chair then giving him dinner and apparently up north dinner is lunch and supper means dinner what just fun fact for you okay how do you supper we said supper only because our neighbors the case selena and her family always said supper so we grew up saying supper for dinner

yeah well i said so for me supper is dinner but dinner is fancy supper right dinner is like a more formal like eastern dinner thanksgiving dinner supper is like come in for supper yeah or you go out for dinner if you're at a restaurant yes you're eating at night you're having dinner but if you're inside you're eating supper that's kind of how it was for us too um but i guess here dinner meant lunch and supper meant dinner okay just a fun fact so maybe i could just have a dinner and a supper i was actually thinking that i was like that that just means multiple dinners, right? First dinner, second dinner, third supper, you know, I'm in. So I got through that butcher box.

That's how everyone was like, well, it was bound to happen. Anyway, so they gave him his dinner. What happened was that Shipman was on duty that day. It was a weekend. It was a Sunday. He'd gone to do a visit and then he's on way home, and he stops at Joseph Bardsley's house. Yes, he was elderly, but he had everything going for him, you know?

He was all right, worked out, had friends and family, and yet Shipman chooses to have his Sunday lunch stopping by Joseph's house, and he kills him. It says so many things about the power of a doctor, how you have access, the way you can just go in and just kill someone. And he left him there with his shirt sleeve rolled up, just sat in front of his dinner. It was made out that he just died suddenly. Shipman certified his death as simply due to old age. So he's on his way home and he just decides he's going to stop by and kill a man.

Yeah, so this, I often try to stay away from phrases phrases like oh he's a crazy person because right right right right but this guy really seems like bananas unstable of like oh i like at the at the blink of an eye you know all of a sudden he's like oh i feel like killing this person also yeah he just has an urge to kill i guess like a very consistent urge like like, like not just like, oh, I've gotten my fix. I can wait a couple of weeks until I start planning the new one. He's like, I have an idea and I don't even need to plan it because now I'm like overtly confident in this and I don't even care. So they did say later that he murdered about one patient a month on average.

Oh, oh my God. Yeah. And he was active for a very long time. Like he was a doctor for a very long time like he was a doctor for a very long time nobody started like looking at their watch and being like okay it's been 30 days like someone's gonna die today are you kidding me because a lot of times they would be like in their 80s or 90s and he would just say you know he had an underlying condition nobody like but i would i i mean yeah i i'm with you but also i feel like if my ancestor happened to be in this space, I'd be very disappointed in them if they didn't think, hmm, before this guy moved in, how often were we getting deaths?

Like, what caused it now? Yeah. I mean, it's so frustrating that so many people died. Anyway, keep going. It is. No, it is. And I don't know. It's one of those things where, like, I guess you just don't know unless you were there yeah i don't want to i don't want to blame anyone right

it's hard to say like they should have known because it's like well but also i should have known like i just want to describe it it's very frustrating and again that was like the convenience of having a lot of elderly patients it was like nobody could like call the police and say my 89 year old grandmother passed away like in some ways it's a perfect crime but it's also just happening so often where i would just be suspicious i'm just i'm shocked that people aren't openly being more suspicious about it yeah well and you'll see why soon why it was why he got away with it too and because i think part of it was that he was moving around so he would be at that one place for 18 months but then

he developed that addiction he moved to another place joined a group practice and then he ends up next starting his own practice and that's basically where he suddenly has the power of no oversight uh-huh he has his own building, his own practice. And that's where things. So I think part of it is just that it was such short periods of time. Yeah, that like maybe the pattern didn't emerge until later. But so the Bardsley family told the inquiry later that when he died, there was actually nothing wrong with him.

They described this man, what was his name? Joseph Bardsley as fit as a butcher's dog, which is fun. But at the time, they thought it was natural. They just assumed he was older. Maybe he had a heart attack or maybe just old age. So they just went with it. So like I said, in 1993, Harold set up his own practice in Hyde and he registered roughly 3,000 patients oh okay and by the end with him and by the end they're all gonna be gone there's eight no I'm just kidding

but yeah but yeah he basically took and those three thousand patients most of most of them were his patients that he took with him to his new practice because they were they liked him so much that he just took them with him so if you think 3 000 patients in one a month who's pretty old is dying like maybe that's why nobody caught on right away i guess so i don't know also think of how like narcissistic you have to be that and it's also being you're getting enabled to have this narcissistic opinion too because before they die all they do is think of how wonderful you are. Yes. And it's extra sad.

Yeah. And it's like, they're so dependent and like caring. They care about him and trust him so much. It makes it really, really sad. And he was one of the most popular GPs in the, in town.

And a, one woman on the BBC documentary said all the old people liked him. And another patient named angela said he made you feel important he always made you feel that it was important to him that he was doing the best he could for you very well read he was always up to date with everything so he's just charming af like he just think of all the people who were not in his age bracket that he that went to him like there's got to be so many people if he was that popular as a doctor yeah and other people that went to him and a bunch of people had stories of like oh my god like i went to him for like a stomach ache like high cholesterol yeah exactly

that's a good point like younger people who but so many think like like how we get every now and then like a listener story is like my grandma knew ted bundy or something but imagine a whole town with like one of the most popular doctors yep like i don't know everybody's dying to get oh that's a bad bad but everyone's trying to get an appointment you know and like he's booked up because he's so popular i don't know how big this town was but in at least in friedrichsburg there was only like three doctors and everyone knew the name of all three of them right either you went to one or your friends went to the other two but like so everyone must have had a story in this town yeah he definitely had a reputation and um he had 3,000 patients I know the practice he worked at before had seven doctors in it so I think it was at least eight doctors probably more I don't know how big Hyde is but I think

it's outside of it's in like the Manchester area so I think it's not a super small town from what I can tell um but what do I know big enough or small enough that people knew him yes yes definitely and it was noted later that he was so well liked that a lot of the this is where it gets this is like exactly what you were just saying a lot of the murdered patients were found wearing their finest clothes their nicest clothes because they so looked forward to his visits jesus i know and so like seeing and talking to him was often a highlight of their week so when he would come over they would get dressed up they would make tea they would be so excited to see him and so a lot of them were found in their nicest clothes when they passed away that's we're killed i shouldn't say passed away we're killed it's so sad it just makes it extra heartbreaking that they were like

excited for the day yeah and they really trusted him like you said and they wanted to impress him and uh it's just heartbreaking um so the first official who alerted suspicions about Harold Shipman to authorities was Dr. Linda Reynolds, who worked across the street at a group practice. And she was often invited to Shipman's office to sign cremation forms. And it became evident to her that Dr. Shipman had a significantly higher number of cremation forms than her own practice. And later, a lot of families said, yeah, he weirdly pressured us into cremation forms than her own practice and later a lot of families said yeah he weirdly pressured us into cremating our grandmother even though for evidence to hide

evidence yep exactly like he pressured so many people into cremation and so that was part of the reason nobody knows the final number of murders because there's no evidence left you can only go after like the cremation paperwork i guess yeah i mean that's it and like there's no evidence left. You can only go after like the cremation paperwork, I guess. Yeah, I mean, that's it. And like, there's no way to prove he did anything. So what struck Linda was that the majority of his patients who had seemed fine, had died in the afternoon fully clothed, often sitting in a chair with the door unlocked. So Linda talked to the undertaker Deborah Massey, who I mentioned way way up top who had also been alarmed by the number of deaths coming from this practice and also linda called the coroner john pollard who was like yeah we should probably flag this to police so according to the manchester evening news linda's husband nigel later said on trial that his wife his wife risked her and shipman's professional

careers by blowing the whistle on him without like full proof but that's just how convinced she was that something fishy was going on sure and she did receive a visit from uh detective inspector david smith and they told her they were going to open up an investigation but of course in this town rumors started spreading and they got back to harold who heard that people were getting suspicious and uh the BBC documentary one of his trusted patients remembers coming in for his 50th birthday checkup to ask Shipman how he was keeping up with everything that was going on and Shipman said take a look at all those these wonderful cards of support I've been receiving from my patients and their families like because he was kind of suddenly under the

microscope for and he he had a wall of support from his patients and their families being like we're with you like we know you would you know you're a great doctor don't let him get you down so that's how much he was loved like people just couldn't fathom which makes me wonder again like the fact that he had such strong relationships with these people and like knew their kids names i'm assuming and like you know made them feel like they were super special it's not just like he felt like killing and then planned that there was going to be this one person he really doesn't feel anything for like he had to yeah for months have been basically grooming them yes that was the word they used grooming that was literally the word they

used he it feels like he was either grooming them and keeping himself detached the whole time or he genuinely had a bond with these people and still went to their house being like i'm gonna kill you yeah and you wonder like if there was some twisted twisted view of like i'm taking them out of their misery but like they weren't even really sick a lot of the time or not not here you know did he grieve because he was like wow that was a really nice person it's a shame i had to murder them such a bummer yeah exactly it's it's hard to tell and like and also like are they is he only keeping really nice wonderful enriching relationships with people he plans on killing? Or is it everybody and he just, like, picks out of a hat?

Or is he months in advance committing to one person? That's a great question. In which case, how creepy is that? That, like, for two months, like, he was intentionally gaining your trust with the intent of you being dead completely and then he goes uh oh i'm gonna come over for tea and today's the day it's almost like uh as someone who does not garden i feel like it's someone who like makes like who like puts time into making a plant and then eventually it's like too big and you have to repot it or something it's like oh this relationship i've built it built it built it and it's this beautiful wonderful friendship now oh you're it's prime time to kill you right it's too bad i have to dump morphine into it and yeah yeah it's it's a great

question and like the frustrating thing is you'll see why but we don't actually get an answer so perfect uh anyway so three weeks later the detective david smith came back to linda said hey don't worry i looked into it there is nothing sinister going on and the inquiry is now closed so he also warned linda that shipman was quote a respected member of the community and she better watch what she says oh shit okay he is a pillar of the community and you should not you shan't i heard it you shan't put short you shan't put judgment on him okay linda geez so basically linda risked her reputation and then was basically given a slap on the wrist like how dare you talk about harold this way

okay and now harold is also like aware that people were suspicious of him right like all you did was tip him off that he's better about this exactly so this investigation by quote-unquote investigation by david smith would later be known as the failed investigation is what they called it oh okay so david smith didn't get away with looking good in this scenario in fact he got a lot of shit for the way he handled this investigation and so the inquiry the later inquiry the harold shipman inquiry would report that the main reason this investigation failed was that the wrong people aka david were in charge of it and the guardian observed that if the investigation had been taken more seriously,

they would have been able to save more than 100 victims. Wow, that's really horrific. Isn't that bad? That's awful. So, like we said, now he's just tipped off. And now everyone's like, oh, wow. And everyone felt guilty. Like, people even described later in

the documentary saying like i had suspicions when everybody was talking about it and then later when he was cleared i felt so guilty that i could have thought something of such a nice man like he was this manipulative that he could pull this off how gross is that it's disgusting it is in that time where he was getting away with it too you know he felt like such a goddamn king like yes true oh that's so gross he was eating it up like he was literally being invited to tea at these places i mean and like i'm sure the apology gifts and all of this oh yeah the love the cards and when he finds when everyone finds out that he's done nothing wrong the word of mouth of this story where it's like oh he's this exceptional amazing doctor i can't believe him yeah yep completely yeah and

he definitely just took it and ran and killed more than 100 people after this so the course finally changed course that doesn't make sense the case finally changed course on june 24th 98 when 81 year old kathleen grundy who was a well-known and popular figure within the hyde community she was an ex-mayoress which huh i feel like is that the ex-mayor is enough but i guess they called it mayoress yeah we are we and almost made me feel like she was the wife of a mayor before just the fucking mayor oh wait maybe she was what is a mayor when was i just invented mayoress maybe you're right oh you're totally right oh wait no it says the wife of a mayor or a woman holding the office of mayor yeah i don't like that it's so sexist it made me question my own like value it's like when people

say oh a female pilot and it's like so pilot what pilot right yeah exactly uh so i don't know if she was a mayor or if she was the wife of a mayor you're totally right it could be that she was just the way we shouldn't have to take the 30 seconds to figure that out either by the way no but let's just call her the mayor out of like first of all she probably fucking deserves it and also even if she was the wife of the mayor i guarantee you she was doing more than that mayor ever did so i'm not here to slander any fucking mayors okay like i don't know i don't know what side of the political party this mayor was on or this mayoress was on i don't know what laws she deserves some perps yeah i think she deserves perks whether she

was mayor or not to be fair so let's just leave the mayor part out of it but that just tells you how high up in the community she was and like how respected and well liked and well known this woman was so she was found dead in her home and her cause of death was determined to be old age by her doctor none other than dr harold chipman and he happened to be the last person to see her alive that morning not convenient at all nope and one person who fully wasn't buying this story was kathleen's daughter angela woodruff and angela couldn't wrap her head around the idea of her mother's spontaneous passing to just to show how healthy her 81-year-old mother had been, she joked, she was just amazing. We would walk five miles and come in and she would say, where's the ironing?

We used to joke she was fitter than we were. I mean, basically, we were just talking. So she's already feeling suspicious about this. But then she gets a tip from another local lawyer who says, maybe you should check out her will. And this is what the will says. This is what her mother's will says. I give all my estate, money, and house to my doctor. No.

Are you kidding me? Okay. That is too bold. What an idiot. What a dummy. Yep. that is too bold what an idiot what a dummy yep uh my family are not in need and i want to reward him for all the care he has given to me and the people of hyde he is sensible enough to handle any problems this may give him my doctor is dr h shipman and it was then followed by a signature

that did not look anything like her mother's signature now here's okay sorry keep going here's part of the problem angela is a lawyer so okay she's like this isn't even like even if you weren't a lawyer this is like wait what but she's like also i'm a lawyer and i'm looking at this will going this is not my mother's will and angela runs all of her mom's financials and everything because she's her mother's lawyer and she's, I know that this is not my mother's will. What on earth is going on? I know what that, by the way, just lets that just further proves my point of like this guy was getting real confident.

Too close to the sun. He was like, oh, no one will even notice. It's like the fact that you are not paranoid at all. You already just completely evaded suspicion. Like, are you kidding me? Like, this is the time to really, like, downplay whatever you're up to. So some people actually think in the documentary,

some people actually speculated that maybe he was doing this to get caught. Like, maybe he had just gotten to a point where he, which then it's a whole nother psychological thing, but like, maybe he knew this was not a smooth idea and he just did it to see what would happen what could happen or best case scenario he gets a house worst case scenario he got caught anyway yeah like it's finally over like i don't know so some people people are in disagreement about what that was but either way it was stupid because angela's a

fucking lawyer and she's like this is not my mother's signature and it's also not my mother's will and so she took the will to the police and in a first for manchester police history investigators insisted on exhuming the body for a post-mortem which as we know takes a lot for them to for a family and for authorities to agree to exhume a body it's pretty traumatic typically for family members who have already gone through the process of putting their family member to rest right uh so this is a big deal and so the investigation was open kathleen's body was exhumed and in an autopsy they sent uh they sent i think it was part of her kidney and maybe some hair or bone fragment to be analyzed.

Okay. So Dr. Shipman hadn't been brought in for questioning yet because they wanted to wait for the results to come in. But meanwhile, journalist Michaela Sitford had been tipped about the police's investigation. So she went into town herself to do some investigating. And she said in the BBC documentary that straight away she bumped into two old ladies. And because Kathleen was so popular, she asked whether they knew her, and they said they did very well. And she said, oh, I'm looking into Kathleen's death. Do you know anything about her doctor, Dr. Shipman? And they said, oh, you mean Dr. Death? So that answers your question.

Or that basically proves your whole skit from earlier was exactly on point my skit that's exactly what it was too by the way so yeah yeah it was a skit it was called a british murder mystery or whatever they called it a few minutes ago bingo so they said oh you mean dr death do you you know all the old ladies die with him he's a good doctor but you don't last what so people like knew yeah you know but also after this whole thing of me just screaming the whole time how did someone not guess like they kind of did they kind of did and then went man we'll let this play out well kathleen can handle herself i mean yeah i don't know so sifford the journalist could not believe that this seemed to be common

knowledge and that there was a possibility now that it was not just kathleen that there were a lot more so three weeks later police received the toxicology report and it is confirmed that she had a fatal amount of morphine in her body wow now i want to tell you this is another stupid stupid move on harold chipman's part because he used diamorphine which is basically heroin uh and morphine stays in human tissue for decades there are plenty of untraceable poisons okay or drugs that you could use to kill somebody that upon exhumation would not show up in the lab report okay but morphine will stay in your body for like 100 years so fun fact i had no idea yeah so if you're trying to kill somebody don't do it is my answer but noted i will i will scratch morphine off the list step one but yeah so he used morphine so like he's screwed uh so they find this fatal amount of morphine in her body or diamorphine i'm not sure

how different they are but diamorphine is essentially heroin okay so in september of 98 harold was arrested for the murder of kathleen grundy and the fact that he was guilty was like so obvious at this point uh at one point he even claimed he had never seen kathleen grundy's will you know the one that said i leave everything to my doctor but then they found his fingerprints all over it so they were like kidding me well your fingerprints are on it and then he said he's never seen it but then they found out that it was printed on a brother type writer and she didn't own a typewriter and he did own a brother typewriter and he said oh she borrowed it and they were like well if she borrowed it between writing the will then when did she give it back to you right like it didn't make any sense so they were like okay he's clearly guilty so this

makes me think too that like that theory of him doing this on purpose to get caught doesn't make sense because he's clearly fighting getting caught right now yeah he definitely denied it so either he was just psychologically like you know how but they say like people go back to the scene of the crime. Like they do stupid things that they know they shouldn't do. So I don't, I don't know, man. I don't know. But he definitely denies it. So this opened a whole nother can of worms because now they're like, well, are there more?

And how do we figure out if there are more? So they start looking into other patients who had been, who had not been terminally ill or had not been suffering from long-term and were like, huh, who died suddenly. And they especially looked at patients who had been found dead with a cup of half drunk tea or maybe a cigarette or a plate of lunch in front of them. And they reviewed Chipman's reports. they reviewed Shipman's reports. So they found out that in the case of Kathleen Grundy, Harold Shipman had gone back into his computer records and backdated all of her old records to say,

oh, by the way, Kathleen was addicted to heroin. Are you fucking kidding me? Okay. And the idiot also didn't realize that he was, everything he changed was timestamped. So like, he's going back and like timestamp everything saying she was addicted to drugs. And all these people are like, this woman was an ex-mayoress. He's going back and timestamp everything saying she was addicted to drugs.

And all these people are like, this woman was an ex-mayoress. She's not running around Manchester scoring heroin. What are you talking about? That's not what happened. So they made a case to exhume 12 more bodies of Harold Shipman's patients, which is unheard of. And these were all elderly women who, when they died, no one had reported there being anything out of the ordinary and four weeks after being charged for the murder of Kathleen Grundy he was charged with three more murders who would the bodies had been discovered to have died via diamorphine and the BBC documentary observes that

this is a murder story in reverse one where we had the killer and one that forced families all over Hyde to consider the possibility that the natural death of one of their loved ones might have actually been murder so it was sort of like a backwards murder case where they thought their family died naturally and then they found out it was murder you know what I mean like yeah that's awful weird weird like also finally grieved and now it's like yes well actually now we're digging up the body and maybe this peaceful death wasn't as peaceful as you had thought exactly really traumatic so there was a family named the wagstaffs and they uh originally leapt to harold's. And they were like, he is a trusted doctor. He takes care of our whole family.

However, Peter Wagstaff's mom, Laura, had died under Shipman's care. And so Peter was like, actually, maybe I should think about the day that my mom died. And maybe there's something to this. So Shipman had been present at her death. And he certified that it was the result of a heart attack. And so Peter started becoming more suspicious. And this is how he described the day that his mother died driving to work i see the well this is him remembering the day that his mother died okay driving to work i see the billboard outside the news agents and it says another three bodies to

be exhumed and at that point i'm thinking it can't all sort of be rumor and innuendo there has to be something in this so i think i'll just check out what he actually told us when my mother died he told us that my mother had phoned the surgery and he arrived at my mother's door my mother was gray and sweating and he escorted her up the stairs and took her pulse which was racing so he phoned for an ambulance and went down to the car to get his bag but by the time he said by but by that time, he said she'd then died. I phoned a British telecom and said, can I have the phone bill from 14 Rock Gardens on December 9th? I wanted to see evidence in regards to Shipman phoning the ambulance because he didn't have a mobile phone. And then I think about a week or so later, the mail came with the British telecom bill and there is no record of any phone calls to the surgery.

So to Harold's office. So basically his mom didn't even call Harold. No records of phone calls to the surgery or phone calls to the ambulance service. So if nothing else, he's lying as to what happened that day. So he didn't call anybody. She didn't even call for the doctor. There's nothing to indicate that things went the way Harold said they did. So by March of 1999 seven

months after exhuming kathleen grundy's body he was charged with 15 murders including laura wagstaff wow the court and police believed that for a jury to rule on over a hundred cases would be too much and they didn't want to give him any wiggle room to like sure weasel his way out of any of these so the heat they just stuck with the 15 murders and it was still even with just 15 just 15 the biggest murder trial in british history wow right i'm still upset it's only 15 though because if it's allegedly hundreds you know then i i want him to suffer but it's still sort of at least he got that notoriety. Yeah, so they were worried that if they did more than 15,

that like his lawyers would somehow find a loophole or there'd be enough reasonable doubt to not put him away. So at least he was put away. But yeah, it's only a small fraction. Yeah. And weirdly enough, since it's the biggest murder trial in British history, but it barely got as much attention as like the Fred and Rosemary West trial and a lot of the other big trials in the area.

And it's speculated that, again, this might be just how we perceive the lives of older people, that it's like not as exciting when someone's murdering older people. You know what I mean? Like, so it's a little bit i don't know a glimpse into how the media how how what we get riled up about and what we're fascinated by that this guy's literally one of the biggest if not the biggest serial killer in british history

and like he didn't even get the press not that any of them deserve press but you know right right so at the trial it was detailed how he killed each victim um it was pretty straightforward because there were no macabre crime scenes to analyze there was no uncovering of disposing the bodies uh he was found guilty after six days of deliberation of murdering 15 patients and according to most who know the case that's only the tip of the iceberg right so yeah i guess i guess 15 is still like over a year of deaths though yeah it's still a big list of people and a lot of families too um so at least they got some justice so according to murderpedia he was

sentenced to 15 consecutive life sentences and recommended that he never be released he also received four years for forging the will of kathleen wow so of course now other families are questioning what happened to their loved ones who had also been treated by harold shipman and died under his care so in may 2001 a full public inquiry was open to look at his deceased patients they analyzed a total of 493 deaths over 23 years wow and they summarized on average he was killing a patient per month and the total number was likely to be 284 but we can't be 100 sure because of like cremation and all that which plus the 15 would be 300 bodies uh i think 284 includes the 15 oh okay wow still 284 bodies yeah but like toss in a 15 more

because who knows i mean that's just what they can like confirm so terrifying terrifying i got what point do you lose track where like how many people have you killed you're like i don't know like 284 god it must be close to 300 by now yeah i mean you're really it's yikes it's a big yikes i wonder if he's still getting like the same adrenaline high as he did the first time like you think after 284 like it's just like boring at that point i'm surprised they didn't get more reckless or more dangerous like the the amount he was yeah because it was clearly reckless at the end they're trying to get the will changed to to him but that seems like a one and done type of deal like it didn't

seem like it was escalating to that yeah and also if he hadn't done the whole will thing like how many more bodies would he have killed totally probably a fucking lot another 284 284 at 6 a.m on tuesday uh january 13 2004 while in Wakefield Prison, Harold Shipman died by suicide. He hanged himself in his cell and he took with him the knowledge of how many people he had actually murdered and any understanding that we might have gotten about what his motive was. A lot of his victims' families felt robbed, which happens when prisoners die before they get answers it's sort of like he was the only one who could have told us any sort of information so one of shipman's colleagues remembers uh shipman once saying in passing that old people were a drain on the health system but other than that he never really gave a motive for anything um others believe that maybe he was

recreating his mother's death scene in order to satisfy some like masochistic need oh or that he could at least be in control of the situation yes like he was control of life and death exactly and watching the gp administer morphine and then he would do that over and over again maybe that's what he was replaying um but either way until the day he died he maintained he was innocent and had killed nobody so like yikes um so it was kind of controversial when the news got out that he had died british tabloids including the sun ran a celebratory front page headline that read ship ship hooray uh so kind of chaotic uh energy there in the media and he left behind primrose who he's still married to and his four children who from what i can tell they had a complicated relationship but they

maintained his innocence for a very long time according to grunge.com the closeness of harold and primrose even as shipman's guilt was ascertained was eyebrow raising quote she attended every day of his trial and made weekly visits to wakefield prison where some reports suggest that the couple would hold hands kiss and appear not to have a care in the world and then the guardian claims that primrose baffled relatives of her husband's victims as she queued for food with them during breaks in the trial and tried to make small talk with like his her husband's victims families um she even brought a box of chocolates to share with the victims in court like what do you think the families were gonna do like they

were just gonna look at her and be like you can go fuck yourself like seriously talking about she legitimately thought he was innocent wow so it was only big P. Are you kidding me? Rosie. Come on. Rosie. Are you kidding me? Yeah. So people basically attribute her behavior to pathological denial of her husband's crimes. And it was only in the final days of his life that his wife is believed to have suspected Harold of any of the crimes. Because one of the final letters he had received from her read tell me everything no matter what according to the guardian so they think maybe she was finally coming around and that could be one of the reasons he took his own life is that like she was finally starting to stop starting she was finally not no longer believing his innocence um some people

believe that if he died before i think if he died before age 60 she would still get uh payment pension i'm not really sure but uh so they think maybe that's why he died but nobody really knows obviously and uh all four of his children have since changed their names after his arrest and it's thought that uh he potentially died by suicide to inherit this pension to give to his family. And so that's that. There is a garden called the Garden of Tranquility in memory of Shipman's victims. And it's in Hyde Park, Greater Manchester. So you can go check that out and pay your respects.

But otherwise, that is the case of one of Britain's most prolific serial killers in history. Wow. Wow. And what years was he active? I don't know. So he was put in jail. So the inquiry was opened 2001. Okay. Sorry, he was found guilty in 2000. Okay. okay sorry he was found guilty in 2000 okay and he began practicing oh god in like the 70s wow so 29 years i think they said total jeez at least 400 some deaths under his care so 400 divided by 30 yikes yikes and his wife at least it sounds like she's kind of waking up to

it but also like can you imagine the process of realizing how do you cope with that i mean i can totally i mean we're like you know jabbing at her like come on like get it together of course he did it but like i can't imagine having to really sit there and think like wow the person i have been the most intimate with in my entire life and have known for this long have four children with could do this yeah yeah and i mean that that must be come with its own set of remorse and trauma and guilt and to to cope with that and to even just wrap your head around like your whole life you were with somebody you couldn't you didn't know you couldn't trust i would literally book an appointment for a therapist sit down and be like okay i've never allowed myself to think about this

but i'm finally about to not compartmentalize this so get ready for a floodgate of feelings yeah you better have like it's like i want a pin hope you're free all day hope you're free all day because i'm about to lock the doors lower the blinds fire up the smoke machines uh like whoa i uh no i i would imagine you would have to like book the entire day and be like, I'm about to in real time process this with you. So get ready. Yeah. That must be just a lot. So here we are.

Yikes. Yikes. Indeed. So that's the story. And guess what, folks? Next week is our birthday episode. So get ready. Sharp left turn. sharp left turn yes left turn there was a lull in conversation so i made it about us that's totally fine wow no yes it is

our birthday next uh week yikes i hate it um no you don't we love our birthdays i love my birthdays but i wish i was going i was dropping in age not rising well so does everybody but you know what at least you're still in your 20s for another 365 days that is the truth although i'm already in my 30th year so that's true or i will have been when this comes out but anyway uh yeah i'm looking forward to presents galore that's that's what's really keeping me alive during this. Presents and events galore. Turn on the smoke machine.

Fire up the smoke machine. Put on your heels. And yeah, I'm excited to have a reason to celebrate myself because Gemini season. Yay! All right. See you all there at our birthday bash. And that's why we drink.