And That's Why We Drink - E235 Space Cowboys and Semantics Champions

Episode Date: August 8, 2021

Welcome to episode 235! This week we're diving into one of Christine's favorite paranormal topics, aliens! Em takes us to the supernaturally iconic Roswell to cover the Majestic 12 and the famed Roswell Incident. Then Christine covers the infuriating story of a very obviously suspicious sheriff's deputy with the disappearances of Terrance Williams and Felipe Santos. And Christine's baby is as big as a fanny pack now... and that's why we drink! Please consider supporting the companies that support us! Visit mejuri.com/drink for 10% off your first order! Stay cool, calm, and collected during the summer heat! Go to DAILYHARVEST.com/DRINK to get up to $40 off your first box!Head to Rothys.com/DRINK to find your new warm weather favorites today! Stay fresh, stay clean with Native by going to NativeDeo.com/atwwd, or use promo code atwwd at checkout, and get 20% off your first order!Become a member today by going to Feals.com/DRINK and you'll get 50% off your first order with free shipping!

someone asked in that q a what my favorite uh thing about you is and i talked about how you furiously double click all your texts when you're reading my severe ocd tendencies i'm not saying it's severe but I am saying it's wildly extreme. Well, I'm not saying it's severe, but I'm not saying my psychiatrist didn't call it moderate to severe. I will say it is one of my favorite things about you. It's a very precious little, you know, no one's perfect. I tried to explain it to my old therapist. She's like, oh, no, it's probably just a nervous tick.

And I was like, yeah, that's what I thought at first. But it's become such a compulsion that i like can't function and like i can't let people watch me on the computer because people are like like when i'm doing something i'm trying to show blaze something he's like if you highlight it every force like if you continuously highlight the sentence i can't read it and i'm like but i can't read if it's not moving it is a very it's very uh charming it's like oh she's not perfect oh she's broken just like us bust it up it's okay oh well welcome to and that's why we drink where i'm a little busted can we leave all of that in i don't think I realized that since now that I'm,

so I told Em, like, we can record now from the start because I can edit now. And so it's very exciting, but it also means, I guess, a more free-flowing, open-ended conversation is happening here. I was just saying my favorite little tics that Christine has.

So, you know, we've all got them. them it's like oh my my severe OCD good glad it's um glad it's serving a positive purpose because it's certainly not in my life but I'm glad it isn't yours it would be weird if I didn't recognize it and love you uh love you no matter what kind of crazy tics you got going yeah no you're right and i feel like when you notice it i was that's actually the point when i went okay because my brother knows that i do that and obviously like he's just we've known each other long enough that he just knows that i do that and um it never really occurred to me that nobody else has really seen it and so when you when we recorded together and you were like man you know one thing you do it's like you're just like constantly i don't know ticking or

highlighting i also well i like i i said it like a year after i noticed it i know that was like man this is just a personality trait now yeah and i i was like it's a fun personality trait aka a compulsion that i can't control. And so then I went to my therapy office and I was like, listen, this has now been brought to me from someone else. And I feel like now I need to address it because it's not just me noticing it anymore. And so, yeah, she was like, no, it's probably just a nervous tick, not OCD. And I was like, well, let's get to know each other a little bit more. We'll discuss. And pretty soon, you know, we had a full,

full list on the table. It was great times, but, um, good. Well, I can't wait to learn where your other ticks are. You know,

a lot of them, AKA checking under the bed before I go to bed every night, which is like, you know, pretty much the bane of your fucking existence at this point. That's fair. You know, it is useful when I don't have like a guard dog

with me on my travels because I can be like, Christine, check under my bed because I'm not going to do it. And I'm like, oh no, remember when I dropped my pen earlier? That was me trying to find an excuse to look under your bed. I already looked under your bed. But I'll do it again. Well, I think all of your little tics are very charming. I appreciate that, Em.

Some people think that I'm like joking about OCD. I'm like, no, I'm fully not. I'm not making that up as like a haha, I have OCD. It's like, no, that's a very pain in my ass. It's pretty insane. Pretty intense diagnosis, but we're fine. Listen, I've got a lot of it under control. Some of it, not all of it. Some of it. Like one. Maybe one. I still look under the bed. So that one hasn't been dealt with. It's like, dare we ask Lemon who you found under the bed if you're okay mentally yeah listen it served a good purpose for the show okay lemon never discovered you know what we said it earlier today but i was like anytime we've ever like been annoyed with each other it always became good comedy you did say that and that was such a wise sage remark you made earlier

what was i saying oh because you like spilled wine i snuck wine into somewhere where i wasn't allowed to bring wine and m was like actually pretty fucking mad at me and i remember like well to be fair i broke the straw of my wine brong dumped it all over the floor so like m had every right to be mad at me but i remember going oh i actually really ticked m off this time like m's not the whole but the whole time i was upset part of you was like you can't possibly be upset because you just like struck a great comedic story so like we'll never stop talking about this right it's sort of like that combo of like you can't be all mad but yeah it's like when my kid is gonna do something like horrifically stupid one day it's like i can't be all mad

because now i get to like make fun of you about this for the rest of my life. Now you have that ammo in your arsenal. Yeah. You have a fun story for their wedding. Yeah. You get it. For sure. Oh, I get it.

Anyway, how are you? And that's why we drink. Why do you drink? Oh, well, I am drinking this lovely. These are my new favorite. These San Pellegrino juice beverages is an orange and prickly pear. I love orange. Oh, that reminded me.

Fun fact. Tell me. So I'm sure you and the rest of the world know that Skittles, the candy Skittles. Oh, are vegan. Yes. Oh. Fun. Oh, I thought that's where we were going.

No, but they made the worst decision of their PR life when they took away the lime candies and replaced it with green apple. This happened several years ago, and I have not been able to look at Skittles. Oh, I don't think I knew that. But I feel like I love green apple and I don't like lime. So maybe I'm on the wrong side of history. You're about to find out some bad news. Are they switching?

Because apparently enough people wrote in to be like this is trash who the fuck made this call and so skittles is bringing back the lime getting rid of the green apple and they're like launching this like rebranding by like if you still you should see it in stores um but they are coming out with lime only skittles which for you is disgusting but but for me is amazing. So they're not disgusting. Like, don't get me wrong. I will eat any candy that's in front of me.

Okay, fair. Not my favorite. But it's like how Starbursts have like the pinks only bag. They have like to make up for lost time, the green lime Skittles only. Oh, that's hysterical. So lime's getting its like comeuppance basically. Wow. After getting rejected that's

pretty harsh i know right from like the underdog to the like supreme dog real seriously so i don't think i knew that even happened it's only limited edition so go get your lime skittles while you can and now sayonara green apple never liked it i love i mean i've never i don't think i ever noticed the difference clearly or I don't. I must have like, but I don't eat Skittles that often. You must have. I don't know. The taste was potent enough for people to be writing in.

It was just green apple. And I was like, wow, I've tried this a million other places. Yeah. I just like they just had a good line. I feel like the classic Skittles were like a combo that you got used to. It seems weird to switch that up. So I can get why that would be frustrating. I feel like an intern came in and went you know what's fun green apple you know what millennials love these days you know what gen z they're icon you know it's iconic with

gen z these days oh my god but anyway so you said orange i thought citrus and it got me to oh great well that was what i was drinking is a prickly pear orange situation. That's very good. And I don't know why I drink except my impending motherhood is coming up very quickly. We're at like seven weeks away. Or less depending on how quickly this human decides to enter the plane of existence. I'm getting a little freaked out. Oh, really?

Yeah. Finally? I've been freaked out this whole time. Oh, trust me. I mean, I'm never not freaked out oh really yeah there's finally i've been freaked out this whole time trust me i mean i'm never not freaked out to be clear i'm usually my baseline is pretty fucking high um but i even was like we need i'm speaking of ocd i was like to my therapist i was like we need to address this because it's getting worse and she's like does it correlate with anxiety i was like yes it correlates with anxiety. That is why. Aren't you the therapist? Wait a minute. So I'm trying not to like freak out every five seconds. But you know what?

We got this. It's okay. What's the thing that's freaking you out the most? Touring, man. I'm nervous. I'm just nervous that I'm going to be sad or I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

I'm just nervous. Sad like away from the baby? Yeah. And tired. I don't know. I'm just scared. But I think it'll be fine. And we have several months before that happens.

We have like an early test run of three days where I think Blaze is going to travel with us. So like, it'll be fine. I'm just, everything's scary. I don't know. If you miss the baby too much when we're on tour, I can just cry and scream and keep you up all night. I promise.

You'll be fine. There's enough of an infant with me anyway. I'll just be like, feed me! And then I won't stop screaming until you do it you're not gonna miss that baby at all i'll have a baby with me you're right that makes me feel better um but yeah we can color we could do all sorts of baby stuff we already do that we do color and coloring books and stuff on tour i feel like you're right you know you're prepping me exactly for for where i need to be i didn't know what i'm doing i did want to add let's see this week um the baby's as big as the crystal ball from harry potter and the prisoner of azkaban or

as big as a fanny pack i like how like the prop master had to be able to give measurements of that crystal ball so other people could understand the reference without having held it themselves yes and then uh actually when this comes out it'll be as big as the volleyball from Top Gun. That's weirdly. Jesus Christ. Weirdly specific. Or the Polly Pocket Adventure play set. So fun.

You have to shoot out a volleyball? Oh, don't worry. By the time we get there, it'll be a cabbage. Oh, my God. M. What? One of them is Kermit the Frog. Is coming up. And kermit the frog is coming up and kermit is if the baby's born week 41 which will be kermit kermit the frog and it will be i promise it will does that off

does it also fall on mothman festival because it's a little too on the nose literally plan now around the birth knowing that kermit is an option we could absolutely plan the exact date i would like to be in the hospital and i would like to set up like a like a ritual space where it's only kermit the frogs all over the place just to welcome in a new kermit we'll turn off the lights and like hum i don't know it'll be creepy as hell if you don't name the baby kermit if it comes out like on kermit week like i'm gonna be so fucking mad at you just saying um well week oh my god one of the weeks um on movie and tv props week 39 is bruiser from legally blonde which is very cute um precious basketball from space jam peanut pizza from teenage mutant ninja turtles it's a lot of fun that's that's uh that's not a firm measurement i feel like just yeah it

says 19 to 22 inches so jesus it's just big it's just a lot of it it's big it's large anyway i hope the baby comes out as bruiser from legally like and then you just have a little chihuahua named cremant yeah it's gonna be a disaster everybody. I hope it's actually just like a fully functioning puppet that comes out. No. And just goes like, oh, it's easy being green or some bullshit like that. Just a dancing Kermit. Yikes. Well, I don't envy you, but it's going to be, are you worried about the day of or the

18 years after? Well, a lot of it, you know, but they sound equally troublesome. They're equally troubling and they're equally scary. I would just say both all of the above. Are you going to like epidural it? Like what's the game plan? Well, you know, it's a very touchy subject. People get very, very judgmental. So please, if you're listening. Oh, do you not want to give? like epidural it like what's the game plan well you know it's a very touchy subject people get

very very judgmental so please if you're listening oh do you not want to give do you know i'm happy to share just to make other people feel like you know it's it's safe to share things like this but um yes i do plan to get an epidural that's the plan so we'll see but obviously there's a plan and then there's like whatever actually ends up happening so i don't want to get too hung up on any details but like my plan is to get an epidural so we'll see honestly i don't know enough about the controversy there but i think if anyone is in enough pain like that's a very valid option yeah so yeah i don't know there's anything wrong either way obviously but you know some people get kind of judgmental about it. Plus, you've also had like 80,000 spinal taps from that one night, remember?

Honestly, that one spinal tap, that fucked up spinal tap that like he missed into my spine. I mean, I don't think anything could have prepared me for an epidural as well as that did. I thought you were going to say nothing could be more painful. And I was like, don't count your chickens, my friend. Yeah, true. Fair point. But nothing could be really more scary because that was like, wow, I'm in the basement of this hospital. This is the eighth time he's trying to put this needle into my spine.

And then afterwards, they told me, actually, it's great. It's really fascinating because he's actually legally blind. And I was like, is that a joke? And Blaze was like, Blaze was so mad. He's like, wait, they put that doctor in charge? He is literally legally blind. And I was like, oh, I know they told me. Oh my gosh, maybe he'll be the same doctor that works with you. So you'll have and a legally blond little bruiser. Absolutely not. That man was also 80. so i'm like i i think he's probably retired in the last five years i hope because he really was blind he shouldn't be

putting a needle in my spine anyway whatever so it's fine the the professionals who do it it'll be fine but um yeah at least i've been enough pain with my crones and shit in hospital like just i'm just gonna take the epidural. You know what I mean? It's like, look, I have zero room to judge you, even if I knew what I was judging you on. But congratulations either way. You're about to literally push out a human being. So you kind of get to do whatever the fuck you want.

How about that? Listen, I'm going to write that down and make that my affirmation. I can do whatever the fuck I want. Look, and you know what? I would applaud it a thousand percent. All right. Do you want to get into the story this week? You're going to like it, Christine.

I can't wait. So this is the story. It's your favorite topic. What? Do you want to guess what your favorite topic my favorite topic um do you want to guess what your favorite interest is christine um could it be uh cowboys or aliens oh yeah okay yeah yeah yeah no it's aliens oh okay it's like i figured it was one or the other but i want to be a little more specific so i said cowboys but aliens is my guess i would like to combine them one day and cover like a space cowboy

for you a space cowboy i would be so thrilled i should have made that your america's hercene shifter as you were a space cowboy maybe like the space cowboy is like my romantic interest or the hercene shifter romantic interest there will be a sequel to america's her scene shifter and they will be falling in love with a space cowboy it'll be like that weird uh acon story about like space literature well they'll have a baby named xenon and then you know where it goes from there so okay so this is the story of the Majestic 12, aka the Roswell incident. Holy shit. Yeah.

The big guns. So the Majestic 12. I like the sound of Majestic 12 because you usually get like triple threat. You got Fantastic Four. You got the Jackson 5. You never get a dozen. Oh, cheaper by the dozen. Cheaper by the dozen.

The most famous dozen of all yeah the cheaper one um a baker's dozen which is actually not a dozen fun fact which is even better than a dozen a baker's lesson is also what i call the m special so just throw one extra for fun so okay this was, this was obviously in Roswell, New Mexico. This was in 1947, which, just to keep you in the loop, it was the beginning of the Cold War, which will come into play later. Fun fact, I just wanted to ask if you wanted to take a little guessy. In 1947, at the beginning of the Cold War, how many UFO reports do you think were seen in that year alone 1947 oh my god like in the world let's say near new mexico oh um

10 there were over in the last six months alone there were were over 300. What? Yeah. Holy cannoli. I don't know if it was officially New Mexico or just the Pacific Northwest, but fun fact. Wait, is New Mexico in the Pacific Northwest? West America. Oh, okay. West United States. I was like, I feel like it's not quite, but- Yeah, it's more Washington, Oregon kind of stuff.

Closer to Mexico than Canada. Fair enough. not quite but yeah it's more washington closer to oregon kind of stuff mexico than like canada um yeah pacific southwest i suppose i don't know yeah southwest i feel like that's like texas like yeah arizona so the this story so 1947 the air force comes forward and publicly announces that they have found a flying disc. And it was on, I don't know how to pronounce it. It's like Brazil, but with an E instead of an I. So Brazil. With an E instead of an I.

Yeah, so Brazil. Oh, I don't know. Wait, what is it? Is it a place? It's a last name. Oh, oh, I have no idea. I guess. I'm going to say Brazil.

Brazil. Brazil. Brazil? Brazil? Brazil. So the Air Force says that they found a flying disc on the Brazil ranch. Oh, I see. And this, in the newspaper articles, this is actually one of the first references where a flying saucer is claimed. Okay. So the account, or this actual sighting happened june 14th 1947 and the rancher

the farmhand his name was ww brazel although they call him mac and mac and his son vernon were driving on their property which was about 80 miles away from roswell and they saw quote a large area of bright wreckage made up of rubber strips tin foil and rather tough paper and sticks sounds like somebody's fort fell apart i was gonna say it sounds like when you go out into like the woods and try to like make soup as a kid with leaves like find a rock and you're like this will work as a bowl this is a sandwich exactly um so anyway there was apparently a lot of like metallic wreckage okay and others who also witnessed this from further away claim to say that the crash the crash left a bunch of scraps around confirmed by the farmer uh but they also said that the scraps were

taken away by high-level military and some reports even said that aliens were found in the ufo and taken by the military but the only real account we have is from mac and his son vernon okay so this made headlines with the roswell daily record uh they stated that mac tried to collect as much of the scraps as he could he didn't have a phone at the time so he didn't know like how to contact anyone to help him and so we just kind of like cleaned up he just went help yeah he's like i guess i'll store this somewhere and after hearing about other ufo sightings in the area mac decided that he was going to show other ufo sightings in the area mac decided that he was going to show this all these scraps to the sheriff it got passed through a couple hands eventually it ended up with the air force's bombardment group uh which took the flying disc for inspection okay and after having the disc for

a day they quickly debunked it as a can you guess it weather balloon weather yeah so this would have been part of their thinking based on the time frame and them calling it a weather balloon this would have been around the time as project mogul which i might cover eventually if we get really in depth if we ever get really in depth with aliens i'm gonna or ufos i'll cover it but it's basically like the classified government program where they set off a bunch of high altitude weather balloons right weather balloons to monitor nuclear tests from russia which i think i've come i've talked about a little bit in the past yeah um i think when i covered i forget what it was called but it was like it was the alien encounter where like 300 students saw it and

they thought it might be a weather blue so i've mentioned it a little bit before but it's called project mogul where they released all of these things to like test radiation that's right i do remember that yep ironically they were doing this in uh the earlier 1940s when russia wouldn't even have its own like nuclear balloons or anything worth really testing until almost 1950 so they were project mogul came up before there was ever even anything to worry about and then things ended up showing it was kind of like which came first the chicken or the egg and like did we cause like did we cause these things to even exist because we were afraid they existed so anyway fun fact there although this flying saucer was dismissed as a balloon um since they had stated in the press that it was a flying disc that kind of just like laid the bricks for ufo paranoia okay and the quote roswell incident stayed dismissed and unheard of globally and even nationally until the 70s.

So I always thought when I thought of the Roswell incident, like the thing that made Roswell so fucking crazy powerful and all about aliens, I thought it was going to be like we ran into 500 aliens coming off a UFO and they just like all had a party with. I thought it had to be something crazy for roswell to get sure all that credit yeah and it was just like a farmer and his son saw this thing in the sky and it crashed and it got mentioned in the paper and like a day later the story quickly changed and it was kind of what about all those 300 sightings yeah no like is that not why the 300 sightings was a diff was like a story from like new zealand or something no no sorry you said like how many sightings were there in new mexico in the year 1940 oh right yeah well even that so that i think that was all in or around new mexico but none of them were like so you're saying Roswell specifically got the credit from that incident.

Well, okay. Wow. Yeah. I would have expected it to be like, I mean, for the conventions that happen nowadays. Yeah. I would have expected it to be like Mothman size. It's like such a mundane story compared to like probably any of those other 300 random reports around the area.

Yeah. But in Roswell, New mexico specifically the thing that makes roswell so all about aliens was this like random blip of a story okay you never know i guess what's gonna stick i guess not so it ended up staying like i said dismissed for a while until the 70s and then it had this like resurgence so there was this guy named stanton friedman and i'm going to bring him up a little bit later too but he talked at some point he was a big ufo enthusiast and he ended up talking to military members who say that they saw the crash site and after talking to them long enough he ended up making this documentary called ufos are real and so that this documentary

that came out about this roswell incident uh in combination with the fact that two years later a book called the roswell incident came out those two things made ufo enthusiasts look back and be like oh why haven't we ever really paid more attention to this case okay so it was from 78 to 1980 when the roswell incident became like a thing all over again. Right. So back to whatever the Majestic 12 is, right? So that is a conspiracy theory surrounding the Roswell incident. And kind of what gives it the notoriety because I like I said earlier, it's like, why was this this random mundane UFO report compared to others like the big one? Yeah. to others like the big one yeah so the majestic 12 is this conspiracy theory that this incident even though it's like kind of boring compared to the rest is the one that resulted in a top

secret group being formed called the majestic 12 aka apparently in a lot of documents it's spelled as mj12 or magic magic with a j That sounds even spookier. I know. So it's kind of like if you were looking at like government files, it would say like MJ-12. I mean, it sounds top secret scary level to me. So this is how the Majestic 12 even became a concept. So this guy named Jamie Shandera, Shandera, he was at home. This was in the early 80s.

And he says that he was literally just like going about his day and he heard an envelope fall through his mail slot and never found out who the sender was. Just heard something go through the door, went to go check. And it was a postcard from New Mexico. Okay. Or an inside. It was a postcard in the envelope as well as undeveloped photo film oh sorry there was sorry i i fucked up there was no postcard it had a new mexico postmark sorry so i was like that's nice like wish you were here thinking of you so the envelope he lived he lived in i don't know i didn't write that down sorry okay sorry i think i i thought you had said it so he's just some guy and he gets he's just a so he's

a random guy who happens to be a ufo enthusiast i got you okay second got you but he just like basically he yeah he got this envelope inside was this undeveloped photo film. It's like a roll of film. And he brought it to his other friend named Bill Moore, who was a big UFOlogist, a big UFO enthusiast. So the two of them together were like... I think Bill Moore was also very onto conspiracy theories. So when this guy got a random roll of undeveloped film from a stranger he was like oh my conspiracy theorist friend will want to hear about this yeah absolutely that's a person to call

for sure yeah so he goes and sees his friend bill and they develop the pictures and on the film were eight pages i guess they might have been like uh pictures of the pages or something. Like early scans. Early screenshots, if you will. Screenshots. But it was eight pages of classified briefing papers for Operation Majestic 12. Whoa. So one of the pages was a note from President Truman, which was authorizing the creation of this group called mj12 so one whole page was just him saying like i acknowledge that this is a thing it is being created okay and

i'm giving myself approval yeah yeah the other pages were allegedly from 1952 so it was 30 years ago uh and it was a note from the c director briefing President Eisenhower as he was coming into his presidency to let him know, like, hey, this is what Truman was up to. This is what the M this is what M12 or MJ12 is. And we strongly suggest you continue this work under your presidency. continue this work under your presidency so it was like from the cia director to the literal president saying like hey this is your hobby now yeah you don't have a say so other pages also described uh several ufo i wouldn't say several but a handful of ufo crashes and people involved in the investigations and potential cover-ups so So, fun fact, although several parts are redacted, making it hard to read, you can find these online on the FBI website. Oh, hell yeah.

I love when they still have those things up there. So, this is a sample of, like, what one of the pages said. On June 24th, 1947, a civilian pilot this is uh one of like the other random ufo crashes they talk about i think yeah i think okay on june 24th 1947 a civilian pilot flying over the cascade mountains in the state of washington observed nine disc-shaped aircraft traveling in formation at a high rate of speed. Although this was not the first known sighting of such objects, it was the first to gain widespread attention in the public media. Hundreds of reports of sightings of similar objects followed, and many of these came from

highly credible military and civilian sources. These resulted in independent efforts by several different members of the military to ascertain the nature of the purpose of these objects and the interests of national defense a number of witnesses were interviewed and they were there were several unsuccessful attempts to utilize aircraft in efforts to pursue the discs in flight and public reaction bordered on near hysteria whoa whoa so just like that but a bunch of pages like that giving you some intel on like what the government was up to and not telling the public yeah so the majestic 12 it was allegedly because we don't know if this is legit or not it was allegedly created after an incident by president truman to understand the physics of alien technology to prepare for future communications with

extraterrestrials and to even have the military propose uh responses for future encounters and like how they should react so in theory this one roswell incident apparently a couple others created this whole group just for the future because apparently it was happening enough times that truman was getting freaked out wow so according to uh the website ufo evidence.org which by the way i have to give them a complete shout out because i'm going to basically verbatim list what they said i was gonna try to you know put my own spin on it and and not use this verbatim but i mean they it's pretty brass tacks and it's exactly what i like if they did if they did it well we can just keep it encapsulated

so shout out to ufo evidence.org but here are so uh i don't think i made this clear yet but the majestic 12 the 12 are apparently all 12 of the people that are in this committee that are responsible yeah that are meant to be either learning about this stuff or being part of the investigations whatever it may be there are a dozen not a baker's dozen they didn't sprinkle in a 13th nope they they really held back on that man but um somebody else could have got a shot in there but no so the alleged majestic 12 themselves in the 1940s were i'm just going to go through all 12 of them one of them was

rear admiral roscoe hill and cotter and he was the so tell like just keep this in mind as i list like their credentials right these are the 12 exact people you want on your fucking staff if you're making a top secret classified ufo is the guy from blink 182 in there okay if it weren't 1940s yeah i feel like he's the 13 he's the baker's dozen like just sprinkle him on top blink 113 if you will uh okay so this is rear admiral Roscoe Hillencotter, who was the first director of the CIA. He was later on the board for the National Investigation Committee on Aerial Phenomenon. Wow. Then there's Dr. Bush, who was the chairman of the National Defense Research Commission and Office of Scientific Research

and Development, as well as the Joint Research and Development Board, as well as the National Advisory Committee on Aeronautics, aka Future NASA. Why is that? See, he was the chairman for all of those things. Oh my god. Then there's James Forrestal, who was the secretary of the Navy. He was the first secretary of defense. And interestingly, only two years in, he had a mental breakdown and died by the S word. But by the way, pretty tasteless, because I know that depression is a very real thing.

And mental health is very important. But a lot of people do use that as he seemed to have died under very odd circumstances and so some people think that he had implied he was going to talk about majestic 12 or like let the cat out of the bag and it's implied that there was some sort of assassination situation that like a suicide was a cover-up or something like exactly yeah um he did like i didn't write down all of the little things but i did read how it's under weird circumstances and there are a lot of people who like were swearing up and down to like first of all he

i know how this sounds like he wasn't someone who might have done that or if he was someone who'd done that that wouldn't have been the way he went or like there were certain things he still had in order that he would have handled first i see so not everybody believed this everybody everybody that was close to him was like i don't believe it for a fucking second sure um and then just the way that he went was like there were like random scratch marks on him that didn't make a lot of sense that implied like he was actually in defense. It was weird. So regardless, he was the secretary of the Navy and the first secretary of defense. So obviously he'd be on this group.

Then there was General Nathan Twining, who was the commander of the Air Force Air Material Command. There was General Hoyt Vandenberg, who was the chief of military intelligence. OK, the second director of central intelligence. He was the chief of the air staff, and he later became the chief of staff of the Air Force. I mean, like, first of all, how do people have this many credentials in one lifetime? How do you have the time? How do you have the time?

You're busy. And then on top of that, you're going to be on the Majestic 12. Okay. Then there's- Add another thing to your plate? Really? You have room? Are you sure? Like, who are you trying to impress at this point? 12. Okay. Then there's- Add another thing to your plate? Really? You have room? Are you sure?

Who are you trying to impress at this point? Oh my God, you're right. You've done enough. Yeah. Then there's Dr. Bronk, who was part of the Scientific Advisory Committee. He was a chairman of the National Research Council. He was the president of the National Academy of Sciences. He was also the president of Johns Hopkins University.

And he was an advisory member of the Atomic Energy Commission. Wowza. Okay, that's half of them. Sorry, it's so much. But like, just bear with me here. There's Dr. Hunsaker, who is the chairman of the Department of Aeronautical and Mechanical Engineering at MIT. He was the chairman of the National Advisory Committee on Aeronautics, a.k.a. Future NASA. And then there was Rear Admiral Sowers, who was the first director of Central Intelligence,

the first executive secretary of the National Security Council, and he was a special consultant to President Truman on intelligence matters. Okay. Then there was Gordonordon gray who was the assistant secretary of the army he was a special assistant to president truman he was a senior staff assistant to eisenhower he was a chairman of the cia's psychological strategy board and he was uh president eisenhower's assistant secretary of defense also just to throw another notch on his belt was the president of uh university of north carolina jeez and then i'm so sorry i know it's a

lot of words there's donald menzel who was the harvard professor of astrophysics the chairman to the astronomy department a renowned uh ufologist a consultant for the cia and a consultant for the nsa with ultra top secret clearance there was dr berkner who was a executive secretary of the research and development board who directed the studies of weapon systems evaluations and he was part of other cia ufo secret programs and then finally, there was Major General Montag, who was the commanding officer at White Sands Proving Ground. And he later headed special projects in Albuquerque, I'm assuming that were UFO based.

So that was a lot of words. I was hoping the last one would be like, and then there was Ted and he was a great guy. That's number 13. It's like, and there's the star from blank 182 um who we talk about a lot he had a great singing voice and you know just a gift for lyrics really he uh but so anyway that was a lot of words i don't expect anyone to have processed all that but basically that was a shitload of people with a shitload of credentials that were all top secret clearance or like the highest expert in their fields and all 12 of them are allegedly the people involved in the majestic 12 do you think any of them felt like the lowest on the the like ranking you know what i mean like

do you think any of them oh yeah a little bit like i'm i'm the odd man out or i mean they're all obviously all men probably all white i'm presuming oh yeah um i'm sure i'm sure all of them like were somehow intimidated by the rest but like also rightfully so with that kind of oh absolutely uh i would think maybe the guy who was like the president of like university of north carolina like just because like he wasn't like the director of okay that's true let's say he wasn't like the director of the cia or military intelligence he didn't like found nasa or something yeah i guess he didn't also found university of south carolina so like what was he really doing uh okay so of those 12 many of them during their time had testified about ufos before to congress and not one of them ever mentioned the majestic 12 and when these files came forward when like jamie and bill found jamie and bill it's like bill and ted's excellent adventure or

whatever when jamie and bill found this random reel of like briefing papers, by the time that that came out, all 12 of them were dead. So nobody could even confirm this. Oh, wow. Like I said earlier, conspiracy theorists say that there was an inside job to assassinate anyone who was aware of this program and was willing to talk about it or make it public. One of them being James Forrestal, who was on the Majestic 12, and also JFK. Y'all conspiracy theorists love JFK.

He never can escape for a fucking minute. Like, he can't even sit out one conspiracy. His body is somewhere being like, I have been gone for so long, please leave me alone. He's rolled over in his grave so many times that he's just probably burrowed himself further further to the core of the earth uh so anyway sorry that was a really weird thing to say and i i recognize it and i it was funny i apologize for no you did a good job but yeah so those are just two of the assassinations that apparently it had something to do with them in justice 12 in one way or another.

And oddly enough, even Eisenhower's great granddaughter swears by the fact that President Eisenhower thought that Majestic 12 was real. And Eisenhower even met aliens face to face a few times. Saying like, my great grandpa literally did that. That's way cooler than my stories about my great grandpa like literally did that that's way cooler than my stories about my great grandpa like he didn't meet any fucking aliens my great grandpa he well i don't know what he did but he certainly didn't see aliens it probably wasn't as interesting as this it's clearly not he also wasn't the president i guess that one would probably go first okay valid i wonder if he has a good story when you're that person you're like do i tell my

grandpa as the president first or as like an alien as like a really cool it depends on the party you're at you know like your audience you're got you like you just say like oh my great grandpa saw aliens and then like your drunk friend comes by and's like he was also the president but you're not even you're burying the lead yeah she's she's never going to tell you. Okay, so from earlier, Bill and Jamie, we know them well. They spent the next few years trying to prove that these briefing papers were legit. And I mentioned forever ago in this conversation that this guy, Stanton Friedman, had also made a documentary called UFOs Are Real. He happened to be friends with Jamie and Bill. And so they were like, this guy would fucking help us for sure.

Yes. And so all three of them were trying to help verify these files. They tried to keep a secret for a while. But by 1985, which I think was a year later, they got another clue because Bill got this time

an actual postcard in the mail. And it came from apparently New Zealand and it had a picture of Ethiopia on it. So that's a lot of information I don't know what to do with. This is a lot of clues, yeah. So he gets a New Zealand postcard, picture of Ethiopia. I don't know if that's just to throw us off. But it had a cryptic note on the back.

And it said, add zest to your trip to washington try reese's pieces for a stylish look try suit land okay i'm freaking out right now i love a good cryptic cryptic cryptic cryptic message and cryptic message all of the above also like try reese's pieces it's like okay this was the 80s like et just came out and he loved Reese's Pieces. Valid point. Like, you're not being really that crafty there. Valid point, yeah. We got it.

It's about aliens. Okay. So add zest to your trip to Washington. Lemons. Something. Assuming it has to do with. Something about extraterrestrials. And then for a stylish look, try Suitland.

What's suit? Suit? Like, suit's like a. Like a suit. Like a three-piece suit okay three suit uh soup like like soup plantation and i was like soup land sounds way cool i like to think they have like there's a campbell's factory where you just like it to make your own soup just unlimited soup yeah i used to think i was so cool in middle school when remember campbell's came out

with like the sip the absolutely the cooking sips i thought i was the cooleest when i would go to class and i would just drink my lunch and i was like oh your soup you can't do this wow like what what what a shame oh you just sliced your mouth open on that can trying to drink your campbell's well then also like i wanted to show off and then by lunchtime i didn't have anything to eat because i already drank my lunch oh my god i always thought those were so cool we never had them they were it was too wasteful of packaging my mother said that's fair enough and also like to in today's world that was like what two swallows like yeah and also it seems like a way it does seem like a waste of money too it's like why not just whatever but anyway it's literally just putting jealous of the kids you had them so you were cool in my eyes i was just putting a sippy

lid on a literal can of soup um but okay so anyway suit land uh they found out that suit land is in maryland it's literally a town called suit land oh it's a town i thought it was like a men's warehouse it so very quickly this cryptic note does not become very cryptic. I was going to say, we're already solving it. Your trip in Washington, E.T., and also Suitland, Maryland. So they found out that in Suitland, Maryland, there is a National Archive Center that had been declassifying files. declassifying files so they were like okay let's go to suit land in hopes that some hint is that we can find something from a declassified document that helps us verify all of these pictures right so while there they did find a note at these national archives from july 14th 1954 which was

probably two years after the alleged majestic 12 was formed and this note was written by eisenhower's assistant to one of the members of the majestic 12 general twining so the president's assistant and one of the members of the majestic 12 this was a note between them okay it said the president has decided that the MJ-12 briefing should take place during the already scheduled White House meeting of July 16th, rather than following it as previously intended. So all it does is just like mention MJ-12 as part of a White House meeting. It doesn't really say anything creepy, but it at least proves that MJ-12 is a thing. Good point. Yeah. anything creepy but it at least proves that mj12 is a thing good point yeah and it happens to be between two people who are very heavily involved in the conspiracy as members so during this time

they were still trying to keep things under wraps about a bill and jamie they were still trying to keep wrapped things under wraps about mj12 and what they were figuring out about it. But word leaked out to the UFO community eventually anyway. And by 1987, one of the people from the UFO community named Timothy Good also learned about these files. And I don't know how he got his hands on a copy of them, but he published them in his book called Above Top Secret. So even though Bill and Jamie and Stanton, their friend, all three of them were trying to keep this quiet. It ended up blowing up anyway, because this other guy published the pictures in his book. What an asshole.

So everyone knew at this point by 1987, everybody knew Majestic 12 was like a real theory. And these files, because now that everyone has seen them, or these briefing pages that were potential proof, they now have gotten sent to the FBI, who is now investigating the validity of these pictures, because they were worried that someone from high up was leaking top secret intel. Okay. And so the FBI went to the Air Force about it, but the Air Force said that no committee had ever been formed. But then again, that's like a breeding ground for conspiracy theorists to go like, of course, the military would not tell us that it's legit yeah yeah so in december 1988 the fbi had

to make a statement and all they said was that basically the air force says the documents were fabricated they're not legit and the document is completely bogus so womp womp but then again everyone could say of course the fbi would cover for the government so here though are some other legitimate arguments against the majestic 12 pages that we saw okay so well my first one is why would this random hobbyist just get them in the mail but you know that's just me that is pretty valid and no one addresses that but someone should and it's apparently you here i am hello i'm 13th on the list uh something to say so these are some um like formatting things that people noticed in the papers that like don't make

sense if they were official classified documents so one thing is that rear admiral hill and cotter he was a at the time a rear admiral not an admiral as the file says so somewhere in the file it calls him admiral and apparently that's like a two-star difference oh so it's a big deal so like they would not have accidentally stopped, not called him rear admiral. Another thing is that the files were that referenced Roswell called it a Roswell Army air base. But in 1947, it would have been called a field and not a base. That's so cool and interesting that like the semantics make such a big difference. I know you love semantics. I do.

I love them. I can fight about them all day. difference. I know you love semantics. I do. I love them. I can fight about them all day. So another thing is that terms used in these documents were too modern for the time. So they use the word media instead of press and they use extraterrestrial instead of alien, which would have been the more common words of the time. Another thing is that the formatting for the date on the files and the numbering system, like the numbers above on how to file it, they were not accurate for how things would have been archived at the time. And also President Truman's signature on some of the letters were too identical as if it had just been copied. Interesting.

And another thing is that one of the stamps across one of the papers said top secret restricted information. But that wasn't an official stamp until the Nixon administration. I see. So it's almost like someone was trying to make this outdated documentation at a later date to make it look like it was older than it was. um further proof which i don't i think this is the fbi is doing i don't i never got a clear answer on this but if you look at the papers now on the fbi list a lot of them literally have the words bogus written on them like all across the paper like almost like don't even pay attention to this it's completely bogus like i think that was but yeah like void yeah so i think it that was the fbi's doing but the way that in one of the articles i read made it sound was that it already said bogus and like everyone was ignoring that until like the fbi said it literally says bogus what are you i'm pretty sure the fbi wrote bogus i don't think everyone spent years trying to fact check this if it said bogus across it right

right but i wanted to make that that if you look at it now you will see that it says bogus all over i see okay now in 1992 there are allegedly even more majestic 12 documents showing up uh to different ufologists um which now that people are questioning how valid it is, it's like, it's almost like someone is like beating a dead horse and like giving, like trying to keep pushing this narrative, even though people are already kind of over it. Right.

Or people are already thinking it's like not valid. Some people swear that it was real though. So like solid conspiracy theorists were like still taking this super seriously. So when more documents were showing up, people were still looking into it, but other people were like still taking this super seriously so when more documents were showing up people were still looking into it but other people were like okay like we can already guess that this probably isn't legit in 1994 another film role was sent to another ufologist who happened to be friends with stanton so it's weird that it's like keeping it in the family

but the uh film role had part of a manual instruction list on how to take care of ufo crash remains uh like a little too on the nose my friend like a wiki how page like a like if you could print out wiki how and then rip it up a little bit yeah then there were like sketches of ufos there was a list of meetup sites between aliens and humans. And then there were investigation reports on the interplanetary phenomena unit. And apparently this investigation happened a month after the Roswell incident and was conducted by people from Majestic 12. Okay. So it was just like a lot of like very on the nose shit. It was almost like we can tell people are losing interest.

Let's like give you like more solid looking info so to keep the story going right right right like over validating it sort of yeah over perfect yes over validating it so interesting around the same time these ufo cover-ups were becoming such a big deal in pop culture i mean in the 80s there were so many movies about aliens that were like i mean even star wars had already happened mean in the 80s there were so many movies about aliens that were like i mean even star wars had already happened like in the 70s so people were all about this like ufo craze and it was such a huge deal that like the government might be covering something up that apparently the government literally put out two of their own reports addressing everything they could think of about roswell that they were willing to tell the public and in 94

there was one that was nearly a thousand pages whoa uh and it discussed everything they knew about roswell and then three years later they came out with another report that said um they couldn't trust eyewitnesses uh from the roswell crash because they got interviewed too late and so their stories might be convoluted and they were giving a bunch of excuses for why eyewitness testimonies to aliens are not real or shouldn't be taken seriously again conspiracy theorists could say of course these are the reports they would put out yeah yeah so um oh one of the things they also listed in the report apparently was that any aliens people had ever seen were just test crash dummies being carried in weather balloons okay which by the way is terrifying in its own right yeah i know so uh roswell was basically in their reports in both

these reports they were like everyone needs to stop taking this so seriously it was not aliens uh it's nothing more than like mass paranoia that started right during the cold war and it slowly morphed like in society into sci-fi pop culture and it just never left and like we made a mistake writing flying disc and one newspaper article and like there's a huge fucking craze so they were like really doubling down the fact like ufos and aliens are not real or not something to be taken seriously but the last thing i'm going to talk about is um a little history lesson for you because if they deny all of this why would they have ever even said in 1947 during this roswell incident why would they have so publicly and so confidently said we have collected and are inspecting a literal flying saucer at a military base.

So that's one of the big arguments of like, we can't trust anything you say after that, because you that was the first thing you wanted to tell everybody is that you found a flying fucking saucer. Yeah, yeah. So why would they have said that at all? Yeah. So why would they have said that at all? So here is history class with me, your teacher, on UFO enthusiasts and how they came to be and how the military portrays or sees UFO enthusiasts in UFO culture at all. I'm intrigued so ufo enthusiasts are pretty similar in many ways in the venn diagram it's a very big oval in the middle with conspiracy theorists so when you think about conspiracy theorists usually they are older white conservative men who think the government is

hiding something and the quote patriotic thing to do is discover all this info and divulge it to the masses. And a lot of UFO enthusiasts think the same way. Fit the bill. So things have not changed, shocker, that they, people, conspiracy theorists were as they are today. I feel like I described a lot of conspiracy theorists today they were pretty similar back then when it came to ufos especially during the hype of ufo paranoia uh since it was like a time of worry and all these alien reports were coming in so just this mass hysteria really

fed into conspiracy theorists belief of aliens. Right. So apparently one of the things that they were known to do, these UFO theorists is they would regularly stock air force bases for proof of UFOs and they would bring their cameras with them to try to get pictures and photo evidence of what they had seen at these classified bases. But during the cold war, the air Force realized that these conspiracy theorists might actually leak legitimate top secret photos of on like experimental weapons that they planned on using during the Cold War. And they feared that Soviets might actually go undercover in these UFO groups to either

get closer to bases or to find out through photos what fellow enthusiasts were sure finding sure so what's ironic about this is that the ufo enthusiasts who thought that they were being helpful to national security were actually the threat great point so this freaked out the air force and they were like what the fuck do we do with all these people coming onto our bases and thinking that like they're gonna like you know tell the world our secrets but by but by exposing our secrets they're actually like really putting us at risk uh-huh so uh ufo especially at three different bases, there was the Kirtland Base, which developed modified aircrafts. So they were like taking like planes and airborne vehicles and like zhuzhing them up.

And there was the Holloman Base, which held classified experimental designs and Area 51, which test flew these experimental designs and area 51 which test flew these experimental designs uh-huh and these were like three of the main bases air force bases that these ufo groups kept going to and aka these this is where the air force did not want conspiracy theorists going at all like these like these are the last three we want you to accidentally leak pictures of right so they thought like maybe we could just arrest people for trespassing but then they thought maybe that implied there was something like super juicy intel wise and they didn't want like anyone on the other side to get suspicious that's a tough spot to be in yeah so the government chose to gaslight them, which like. Oh, how nice. Probably not the first time or last time that's ever happened.

So they decided that they were going to be tricky, tricky. And they confessed that all the UFOs and aliens were real. And all of these UFO groups were legitimate in their concerns. You got us. And it was to distract them from noticing the actual experimental equipment being built on the holy shit and this was assuming that people on the other side would care less about that than like their priority of like what the u.s's capabilities were during war they were like oh if we if we have them worrying about either aliens or like our nuclear power like our nuclear uh weapons we if we have them worrying about either aliens or like,

our nuclear power, like our nuclear weapons, they're going to care more about nuclear weapons. So if we make this all look like UFO stuff, they're just going to ignore it. Wow. Wow. So this led to several deep layers of the government feeding people disinformation, especially people who were already skeptical and suspicious but the plus side is that they decided that they were going to use this to their advantage with ufologists and with ufo groups believing all of this stuff the air force tricked them again and formed alliances with them and said if we give you info and intel about all these aliens we're finding, aka this is all bullshit, but if we give you all this intel on what we're, all these classified UFO reports,

then can you tell us what other people in your UFO groups are up to? Because they were afraid that they might be like Soviet spies undercover. So basically they made this they started fabricating fake proof of aliens just to get these ufo groups to turn on each other so they could find out what everyone was keeping track of and what pictures everyone had and were positive they were doing that they're not just now saying that as like a this leak was apparently like a whole fucking thing i like had so the nail in the coffin on whether or not the majestic 12 is legitimate or not is that jamie and bill who found these this undeveloped film and found the original briefing papers bill moore eventually

admitted to having an alliance with the air force even before majestic 12 was on their radar like before he ever knew anything about it so a lot of people still say the majestic 12 is legit and to be fair i definitely believe there's a council somewhere keeping tabs on ufo shit oh absolutely that much i don't doubt yeah maybe it's not the majestic 12 but, but there's some Majestic 12 inspired group, I guess. Yeah. But apparently he was telling the Air Force about his friends in his UFO group, and he thought that the Majestic 12 files were like a reward for doing a good job at like outing all of his friends and what they were up to and what they were learning about UFOs from sneaking onto the bases. So he ended up getting deemed a traitor in the UFO community. Yeah, no shit.

But one piece of intel that Bill told the Air Force about was this guy named Paul, who was building equipment for even the Air Force, but he was building a bunch of like crazy instruments and he was a big UFO fan. He believed that aliens were living on Air Force bases. And so he started taking his own plane and flying above the bases and taking pictures. And he accidentally got these pictures of aircrafts that were not supposed to.

They were like super classified. Like he should have not gotten pictures of those aircrafts. And so to shut him up, the Air Force said that they were like UFOs and aliens were involved in the crash. And they even built other fake alien related stuff so that Paul would take a picture of it, like like as if he was getting away with it. But they like placed like planted things that Paul would take pictures of. So he would get distracted or misled to think they were aliens. Or in case it got leaked, it like wasn't actual information that could be used against them exactly so uh but apparently bill was helping them like was helping conspire with the air force to

like trick paul who i guess might have been one of his friends but anyway bill's credibility completely nosedived when it came to his backing that the Majestic 12 was a thing. There's still a lot of controversy around it. And many people note that in the same year as the Roswell incident, even if the Majestic 12 isn't real, it is interesting that the same year of this UFO crash, the National Security Council and the CIA were created. And only a few years later, so was the NSA. So they're like, something happened that stirred the pot and all these councils started getting created. Okay, you're thinking like a realist here.

I mean, I'm just saying, I know there was a lot of groups formed during that time. On a show called Ancient Aliens, one guy hacked into NASA and the Pentagon servers and actually found what he considers proof of Majestic 12, although we don't know what that proof is.

So, what could that mean? He's just like, trust me. I promise. And then there's also people who think that the M in MJ mj12 might not actually mean majestic but majority because there's a free there's allegedly a freemasons alien contact program called the committee of the majority and it's supposed to lead to like a new world order so they think that mj12 with all these powerful people might actually be affiliated with the

Freemasons. So some people think it might not just be aliens, but like world domination. Others say that Majestic 12 could have existed, but maybe is now defunct, or maybe one of the departments is in connection with Area 51. Some people think it could be bogus. And the last thing I'm going to say is Roswell is obviously a massive UFO tourist destination now, but it does have an annual UFO festival, which is where we should go the next time you're pregnant. I was going to say, or just the next year so I can imbibe in some alien-themed cocktails. But yes, I am definitely in for our 2.0 baby moon. Anyway, that was the story of the Majestic 12.

Wow, dude, I i just i think alien shit is so fascinating and then whenever the government gets involved it like instead of like making it less likely to me it just adds more creep factor to it because it's like every time the government gets involved in such high levels i'm like i don't know there must be something going on if they're so concerned about. I refuse to believe that there isn't at least one legitimate pseudo-Majesta 12 group out there. There has to be. High ends and experts in the field. Just for the sake of keeping an eye out, you know what I mean?

Even if they're just like hall monitors, you know? Yeah. But like, just keeping tabs open. No, I completely agree. Anyway. Fascinating. I love alien stories. Thank you thank you em that made my day you're welcome i mean it would have been nice for a space cowboy but next time i can i can find you

a space cowboy i don't know how i'm gonna do it but i'll even if i have to make it up i'll hear scene shifter listen we got xenon out of our own brains so i'm sure we could that was not a work of our brains that was a work of your your hands, and your hands crafted that gift. And my mental instability. Yeah, it's a beautiful record. Hey, your mental instability gave us Xenon, and you double tap on highlighted text. And lemon.

And lemon. Think about it. I'm not saying mental illness is 100 hundred percent a bad thing you know like there is some good that comes out of it it's advantage yeah you get it oh yeah yeah he gives you his report card oh wait roughing it roughing it let's see oh he played some today look at him he usually gets low energy I'm not much of a player I prefer to just hang out and watch my friends

play but today he got medium energy I played some with my friends and rested some okay that makes me very happy that's so sweet it's very rare that he gets that you know what he is doing what he needs to do okay

he's like me on the playground like he just kind of skirts on the outside and like eats grass and looks out the fence longingly it's like me in elementary school yeah just a little bit emo all right well on that note i have a story for you today um and this is a story uh that i discovered on the show i've been binging like crazy uh gosh what it's called disappeared oh okay and it's on discovery plus which probably by now anyone who follows me on social media knows that it's like the only like basically brand i work with at this point because i'm like it's just so on brand that i'm like i watch it anyway all the time i might as well you know i also steal your password yeah and i know i made you a profile did you see it yeah it was so sweet did you see it no obviously not because you just called it sweet okay why

what did you name it oh you every whenever you want to watch ghost adventures you'll find out i'm gonna go find out while you're talking i'm gonna go find this thing yes so it's probably like ugly poopy head or something well you're pretty much on point there far off for you okay hang on poop head oh my gosh a picture of an alien it's just poop head how did i guess that so it's actually scary how quickly that was weird you just knew it's like a classic poop head move you know just it's classic poop head action um that's what i did so i apologize but yes I've been watching a ton of Discovery Plus as usual. And I found this disappeared episode. And I was like, at first I was like, oh, this is as always like this is just sad and whatever.

And then it took a twist. And I was like, holy shit. Like, I didn't see that coming. And so it ends up being like way more bananas than I expected. So I'm excited for kind of a twisty turny episode today. I love a twisty turny top, topsy-turvy situation. I know, right? So this is the story of the disappearances of Terrence Williams and Felipe Santos.

So we are in the South. We are in Chattanooga, Tennessee, and 27-year-old Terrence Dion Williams, he is moving from Chattanooga down to Florida. And Terrence is really close to his family he's um he's his mother especially they have like a very close bond which of course makes it all the sadder when when the show starts going and she's being interviewed but um they're extremely close his mother's name is marcia she's kind of a recurring character in the story and Terrence was moving down there and it looked like a like just a it's always I feel like it always happens this way in this show where it's like they were getting their life together they were

finally like feeling on top of the world and like happy and content you know and it's like it's always that they either had the perfect life and they were perfect people or they weren't perfect people but were like finally like getting themselves on track and feeling good about themselves. It's always something hopeful. It's always like the positive gets smashed into a million pieces. It's always hopeful. So Terrence was moving down and according to the Disappeared blog, in 1995 he had pleaded guilty to a robbery and was sentenced to 11 months in prison, part of which was probation. pleaded guilty to a robbery and was sentenced to 11 months in prison, part of which was probation.

And he also spent 50 days in jail after a DUI charge and then driving on a revoked license. And he had separated from his partner. So he had a child support case coming up in relevance to his four children. And if he didn't show up to this court case on January 14, 2004, it would have meant he had to serve 60 days in jail and pay a five thousand dollar fine um but he was also very close to his kids he was like very concerned with paying child support like it wasn't he wasn't the type to kind of run from that he was on top of it he was trying to be on top of it yes so terence had just gotten a new job working at the Pizza Hut in Bonita Springs, Florida. And he moved into, I know. What year was this?

2004. I saw Pizza Hut Prime. Okay. Pizza Hut what? It was like Pizza Hut Prime when like everyone was going to Pizza Hut. It was like a cool place. You said pride. I was like, did they make their own festival?

I was pretty proud of Pizza Hut. They had some good stuff. They have something to be proud of, I guess. So he had started a job there, and he moved into a new apartment in East Naples called Randall Circle, and he shared this apartment with a roommate.

And so being in Florida, he was able to see his mom way more often, and according to the Disappeared blog, he and Marsha would speak on the phone daily, which is very sweet. That's so sweet. More than I talk to my mom, and she lives down the street.

I was literally going to say, don't tell my mom that that's even an option. I think my mom would be like, don't tell Christine that's an option, because she won't leave me alone. But yeah, don't tell either of us. And he would spend Sundays driving with her to the mall shopping they would eat dinner together and he drove his mom to work every day so they were like extremely close and if she wasn't free his housemate his roommate Jason would drive him in and Terrence had a suspended license so at this point he wasn't able to drive so if he needed a ride the roommate either his mother or his roommate would drive him so at around midnight on january 11 2004 terence was invited out to a party with some of his pizza

hut co-workers so pizza party pizza party oh my god so fun i bet that was a good time you know like at a party you want to have someone bring a whole thing of pizza and when you work at pizza hut you could just bring like five pies for free but you're probably sick of pizza that you know i was like that's genius but then you're right you're probably around it all day it's like when i worked at chipotle the last thing i wanted to eat was a burrito and it makes a whole lot of sense if i found out there was going to be like a chipotle like taco party i'd be like that's when you need to partner with another fast food chain and be like you guys bring um you guys

bring taco bell we'll bring pizza we'll trade well that's why you got to work at one of those like those like you know they've got like a kfc taco bell combo you got to be friends with everyone there and then the kfc people get tacos create an alliance of sorts yeah no it actually makes a lot of sense um wow genius so they had a pizza party probably sans pizza probably plus tacos i don't really know um don't quote me on that but they had a party and he clearly wanted to go out but uh he had a suspended license and so he was not supposed to be driving but he decided to push his luck and he decided to drive to the party anyways this is where it all as we can probably guess starts to go downhill um and get sad so he had this white

Cadillac that he was very proud of that he loved and he decided to drive to the party anyways and the following morning Jason found it strange when he discovered that Terrence wasn't home Jason called Terrence's mom Marsha, which I love that the roommate is like close. I know like how invested is this mother with like that look like honestly though I'm my mom and RJ text each other and it's sometimes an odd pairing. Yeah I guess that makes sense. I guess it makes sense yeah whatever. That's kind of cute. So Marsha knew this wasn't a case of terrence having disappeared himself because he as you know like talked to her every day basically

and it wasn't like him to not tell anybody if he was gonna stay over somewhere or not come back until the next day um and so they she reported a she filed a missing persons report pretty much immediately and according to chattanoogan.com which just what a fun name uh a few days went by and no one heard from terrence and of course now his mother is like in full panic because she literally talks to him daily oh yeah and he depends on her for a ride to work so just very odd um and of course the police you know are resistant at first he's a grown man so it can be really hard to submit a missing persons report on somebody who's a grown-up and you know they say like oh well someone's allowed to leave without telling anybody so um it's kind

of hard in these instances to file a report but she's unable to get assistance from the police so she petitions her family in tennessee to help track down her son and although they don't find terrence within a few days they find his white cadillac oh and the cadillac has been sitting in a wrecking company's parking lot oh it got towed yes exactly and so knowing he was driving the car without a license or insurance his family fears he's been arrested and that's why his car has been taken and he is not responding to his phone calls so they quickly learned the car was towed from a cemetery the morning after terrence was last seen at the party and so marcia goes directly to the cemetery to

question the employees and she's told a pretty weird story so she goes to the cemetery and they're like yeah we know exactly what you're talking about uh they had seen an officer a police officer pat terrence down and then put him in the back of a police car oh no and then the car was towed shortly thereafter and so they're like oh okay so we have a lead like the police arrested him for driving without a license yeah they gotta know where he is yeah someone has to know um so the police officer who had signed the tow ticket for the car was an officer named steven caulkins good old steve steve becomes i like that it's like almost like oh wait steven hawking no that's stupid what I thought it sounded a lot like Stephen Hawking thank god I can edit these now I'm sorry even I even my own brain was like shut the fuck up I saw you like

pause and like regret it already and then I was like maybe I should just keep talking but then I was like it's too late I'm has to get it out it's too much it's okay it's slant rhyme sort of not really stupid just it's not worth my time or yours or anyone's oh don't worry I've already It's too much. It's okay. Slant rhyme? Sort of? Not really? It's stupid. Just, it's not worth my time. Or yours. Or anyone's. Oh, don't worry. I've already counted the seconds that have been wasted away in my life.

Thank you. Just kidding. Stephen Calkins, he is the officer who signed the tow ticket. So, of course, they go to Stephen Calkins. And they're like're like hey you towed terrence's car and he goes taryn hmm i don't remember that and also i don't know anyone named terrence oh fuck off well unless unless someone like stole this man's car and pretended to be a police officer and had his badge and his okay am i allowed to say fuck that on this so far? Are you allowed to say fuck that on the podcast? No, I mean, like, am I like, are we allowed to hate this person?

Oh, you can hate whomever you want. And I. Okay, currently fuck this person until I find out that like they're the hero or something. I do always love when you kind of are hesitant about like hating on somebody. It's been enough times. And I have to lead you in the right direction. It's been enough times where I've right direction it's a bit enough times where i've like cussed someone out and then i find out like two seconds later i'm like and they were

the victim oops yeah yeah and i'm like no and so then so like i'm no no that's the one who was murdered and you're like oh i loved them just kidding no so officer caulkins is like who's terrence and they're like are you fucking kidding me it's like been what a day a few weeks right um so according to a great blog that i love called it's crime o'clock somewhere um by a woman named kylie cheo's home from take care happy puppy he's sneezing everywhere okay oh he's that means he wants to play he's rubbing his face all over the floor uh that's charming okay um so he plays the terence who card and they're like uh that's sketchy because it's only been a few days you don't remember signing this toe card with your

signature on it so according to this blog it's crime o'clock somewhere um on top of officer caulkins having signed the toe ticket a witness at the cemetery had overheard Officer Calkins spouting some racist remarks over the dispatch on the night of Terrence's disappearance. And interestingly enough, on the disappeared episode, they have the actual audio of the back and forth. And it's like, oh, it's like skin crawling. Yeah, it's like, oh, it's like skin crawling. Yeah, it's vomitous because you can hear like knowing the story context of the story and then hearing the call is like just so ick. So at one point, Calkins had commented, oh, there's a homey Cadillac like he sees like a homey Cadillac. OK, he calls it. Yeah. Next. And he says it's blocking a road. And remember, he literally said he has no clue about this Cadillac.

He has no clue who Terrence is. So there's literal dispatch audio of him being like joking about, you know, this Cadillac being in the road. Even if you have amnesia, it happened, my friend. So let's get it together. You either need to see a doctor or you're full of shit. And then to contradict himself again, at 1.12 p.m. on January 12th, Calkins had also asked dispatch for a background check on a man named Terrence Williams.

So he literally requested a background check on Terrence Williams. And now he's going, I've never met a Terrence. I don't know who that is. So hearing this, Marsha and her husband, Terrence's stepfather, filed their first complaint against Steve Calkins. And because this was escalating into a bigger issue within the police force, the Florida Department of Law of him like joking around about the car and calling him by his name terrence um and the multiple witnesses at the cemetery who saw this happen um according to the claremont son caulkins changed his story wow what a shock uh cal surprise you know i just i'm always blown away like i certainly could not get away with like i don't know what this guy did

so far i'm gonna assume maybe nothing great let's just put it but like i i don't i could never i know i can never get away with anything because there's so many gps checkers and cameras and whatever like there's recording equipment everything there's so much stuff in society that like i know i could not get away with something bad which by the way shocks me that so many people do get away with it but also like for this guy to just be like oh yeah i'm fine i'm gonna be in the clear it's like yeah you were literally being recorded like i've never heard of him and it's like two days ago you called somebody and asked for a full background check on first and last name at least turn off the camera if you're gonna like yeah many do okay anyway anything it's

just so yeah it's like brazen it's so brazen of like oh i don't know what you're gonna like yeah many do okay anyway anything it's just so yeah it's like brazen it's so brazen of like oh i don't know what you're talking about yeah it's just like be like i i i shy from using the word like entitled but it feels like very like bold very bold to be like it does and it is somewhat entitled of like well what are you gonna do about it yeah um so that's exactly what happened is he changed his story immediately um so he now says he had pulled terrence over because his car appeared in distress which again goes against like the whole homie cadillac thing but he says oh the car was seemed to be having trouble um and so he said he stopped he then Terrence the the driver asked him for a ride to work at a local Circle K so he agreed and he drove him to Circle K okay now there's some weird

things here first of all do we remember where Terrence works oh the hut the hut he doesn't work at a circle okay so people are like that's odd but okay um and so why he asked him to drop him off there and like when they asked officer caulkins this he says uh well maybe he lied and was giving me a false giving me a false place of work uh to drop him off so that he was could have so it's like i guess yeah sure but the other weird thing is terence had a suspended driver's license like why would officer caulkins just be like sure i'll drive you to work no problem no ticket nothing like see ya yeah like he definitely like could have like reasonably gone yeah oh you know like pretty big trouble like he had just been on probation he was driving

with a suspended license like it's not great uh so they were like well why would he just let him walk free like that's so strange um and he just was like oh i felt bad he seemed like a nice guy and they were like all right so just like an odd change of pace here with this story but now they had a new lead and they were like okay fine circle k we'll check out the circle k so when police went through circle k's cctv footage shocker there is no sign of caulkins or terrence on the night of the disappearance so people who are working at circle k on that night also never saw a police car in the parking lot so that was another odd thing yeah and uh despite all this caulkins stuck to a story that terrence had asked for a ride to his job at the circle k and that's what he did and

he just let him off with a warning so that's the story so caulkins continued to butt heads with witnesses because again the bystanders at the cemetery are like pretty adamant about what they saw they estimated that williams and caulkins exchange happened in about half an hour but officer caulkins says oh it was it was more like a few minutes it was like maybe 10 minutes max but remember first he said he didn't even have this exchange so it's like right are we gonna believe here okay and also like i feel like if you're going to if you're the nice enough cop that's going to let someone who's, like, actually, like, kind of in trouble get off with a warning, I feel like that makes you feel like a safe enough cop to, like, tell the real story about where you work. Yeah, if you're already, like, in the clear and you need a ride.

If this guy was threatening, then, like like you wouldn't want to tell him where you work yes if you didn't want him to know your identity or whatever but if he did like you're right like sincerely say like you're fine just tell me where you were i get it i've been there i'll give you a ride yeah yeah yeah it doesn't make much sense exactly so they're saying it took a half hour he's like no it's only a couple minutes and when he also didn't happen but also i forget who that is i have no clue um terrence who what uh so also he when he was confronted with these discrepancies he stormed out in anger alleging that the sheriff's office was twisting his words and they were out to get him for political reasons because it was an election

year because he worked for the sheriff's office so like now he's turning this into like a victim thing like i'm being attacked um it's like cool that's not it's not really about you right now but i guess it is so where is the guy then since you're yeah oh victim oh victim please tell us where the guy is yeah then why don't you fix this please like make it make it all go away quickly, you could not be the victim if you just tell us what's going on. Yeah, exactly. Like, you're the one acting suspicious. So the FBI went through Calkins' GPS. Like you said, there's fucking GPS on a police car. And so they go through his GPS to search for all the relevant areas that could be linked to the case, but they couldn't find anything. His phone records also weren't helping him out because it there was

no indication that caulkins ever called or got in touch with the circle k store to confirm the story or to check up so nothing was circle k that seemed to just be kind of made up um and remember that it comes back into play it's just this is just a wild noted so with still no sign of her son marcia williams filed another complaint against steve off officer steve caulkins and with his poor conduct lack of cooperation uh he three polygraph tests that showed evidence of deception aka he failed three polygraphs solid derogatory language and negligence that is now like publicly released on audio. A all of this led to him being fired. So he was fired from the police force and the disappeared blog writes how Calkins appealed the ruling, but it was upheld and his dismissal stood.

He refused to appear before a grand jury was not charged with a crime and subsequently moved to Cedar Rapids, Iowa with his family. So he just was like and that was just the end of it bye um almost not quite okay not quite in the grand scheme of things the story is very much not over so i remember you saying the disappearances multiple people great that is exactly right um so marcia williams is contacted unexpectedly by miami's mexican consulate okay and after hearing about the tragedy of martha's son's case the consulate thought the case sounded strangely familiar oh shit and it turns out that steve caulkins was a name that had been floating around the Mexican consulate recently for very similar and suspicious reasons.

Oh, God. I was going to say, because I was like, if this guy's already getting fired and we haven't even gotten through multiple disappearances, where do the others come in? And apparently there's a prequel to this story. Got it. Okay. Not in Cedar Rapids, Iowa. They already have it. Got it. Okay. Not in Cedar Rapids, Iowa. They already have it. Got it.

Okay. Exactly. So a couple months before Terrence's disappearance, on October 14th, 2003, at 6.30 a.m., a young man named Felipe Santos was on his way to work with his two brothers when they got involved in a small fender bender. And this was not good because he did not have he was living here in the united states from mexico didn't have proper identification um so already like bad to get mixed up in the police force in that incident um but he is in a fender bender he has to be there for

you know to talk to officers and uh guess who fucking shows up on scene uh to is it mr stephen hawking i think so he rolls up in his wheelchair no it's not stephen hawking unfortunately that might have been a better ending but no uh that's a much better ending because then they would have probably just hung out like talked about stars talked about time travel cosmos yeah it would have been a good time wow what i would give to be friends with steve if only um r.i.p so uh steve caulkins shows up wow how shocking um he was caught in a pickle he was driving without a license without insurance and so he was put in the back of the police car having been cited for reckless driving and driving without insurance and the police officer who had stopped him was a lovely man named steve caulkins uh it's worth saying at this point that felipe santos is mexican terence williams is black and steve caulkins is white i don't know if anybody

guessed otherwise but that's pretty i mean maybe maybe we shouldn't be assuming things, but I certainly did. Yeah, based on the derogatory statements and stuff, it's at least there's definitely some racism happening. So yes, this is just to give a full picture. This is where all three of them stood. And after this incident, the 24-year-old Felipe was never seen or heard from again. So basically the last time anyone saw him

was being put into the back of steve caulkins's car wow so uh felipe santos had been born january 1st 1979 and had recently moved to florida illegally to earn some money doing work on farm fields and construction sites to send back to his wife apollonia cruz cortez who was taking care of their newborn baby and when santos's boss heard that felipe had been driven away in a police car they immediately contacted the jail thinking he'd be there and that they could bail him out but he wasn't there so when authorities asked caulkins what had happened after you drove away with him in your car he explained oh i decided to let felipe go because he was cooperative. And they said, oh, what did you do? And he said, oh, I dropped him off at the local Circle K.

Oh, so like, this is just the same fucking store. He just literally, he's so fucking lazy. He couldn't even come up with a different fucking. A different fucking store. A different alibi. He couldn't say CVS. He said fucking Circle K. And they were like wait wait wait wait he couldn't he couldn't say like it would be really ironic if he said pizza hut but like i mean like wow okay so this guy really just doesn't even try

in florida you could turn this way and be like walgreens i don't know like well also it makes sense now if he was saying like like why he he was so prepared to get away with it. You know what I mean? Yeah, he'd already done it. He'd already done it. Probably they put him on the spot like, oh, where'd you go? And probably he just couldn't think of anything and just said Circle K because it was what he said last time. Right.

He was like, uh-oh, I've been here before. It just repeated the same story. Jesus. before uh it just repeated the same story so when when the mexican consul is like wait a second circle k like this is same guy same storyline same mysterious disappearance and circle k like it's just within months apart it's very very very fishy so fishy i would at that exact moment i'd be like okay we're done here like yeah uh-oh pack it up like come back from fucking iowa or wherever you are uh i do iowa i don't remember um so when they hear this marcia uh hears this and this she learns that the santos family also filed a missing persons report but obviously also did not find felipe and according to a 2012 news press article the whole investigation felt really off to felipe's family for obvious reasons um his wife questioned the quality of

the investigation citing the fact that she had never been contacted by investigators when they were investigating his disappearance really his own wife they never she's like nobody ever asked me or like reached out to me contacted me i'd be pissed i'd be pissed too are you kidding me who's the first person you talked to when someone was missing their fucking spouse like hello it's so very very sketchy very fishy that like oh we investigated it like obviously not yeah very well no you did not no so by hearing the news about the similar tragedy that the santos family were going through the common link was obviously very, very clear. Steve Calkins, who had previously been a farmer from Illinois, was a 17-year veteran road deputy with a clean disciplinary record who had worked for the sheriff's office since 1987. he is married has three children and he had been recognized twice for quote saving lives and has many letters of thanks in his file from citizens helped since he worked sorry since he joined the

sheriff's office in 1987 and that's according to the sheriff himself don hunter uh these included helping to lift an overturned pickup off a man who was suffocating underneath and in 1997 he helped give cpr to a 78 year old man suffering a heart attack um but i guess you know that doesn't clear you of being a horrible it only takes one only takes one one really awful thing for us to our entire opinion to change and like the fact that this santos thing wasn't even on his record and like that had happened several months before so which makes me also wonder were there other things on his record you know what else hasn't come up yeah um internal investigators found that there was no clear reason caulkins would have uh targeted santos except i'm like well i find a clear reason but okay right but sheriff don hunter has further commented that we have found no evidence of any

foul play but this is too strange too odd for me to dismiss it offhand as mere coincidence in my 25 years with the department i haven't experienced anything like this so at least the sheriff himself is like listen i don't know how to explain this one away like at least look at least he's on top of it like at, at least he admits that something's up. Yeah. I mean, to be fair, he let him just move off to Iowa, but without any, like, you know. Not a cute look. Not a cute look, but whatever.

Not at all. He's also gone on to say that both, this is also kind of problematic, but he's also gone on to say, the sheriff has, that both men had reasons to drop from sight. And there is some evidence that Santos may have headed to Mexico. And everyone's like, well, what is it? And the family's like, we don't have it. Yeah, the wife is like, let me know why he went to Mexico. Yeah, whenever you decide to give me a call eventually, let me know. That's a problematic statement there.

Like, both had reason to drop from. Like, tell me what they were then yeah like what like what and i guess the one for um terrence was the custody court hearing but his his mom was like no no like he was ready for that he was prepared to pay it he had always been prepared to pay it this was not an issue of him trying to like escape payments you know it's wow so anyway on august 30th 2018 marcia who obviously has not given up um on bringing about justice for her son joined forces with none other than tyler perry uh beloved filmmaker of media fame that guy is all over the place he is all over the place i don't know what is up with him, but every time. The ubiquitous Tyler Perry.

I feel like he's this generation's Bill Murray. Oh my God, yeah. It's just like, how did he show up in this narrative? He owns a baseball team too? What is going on? It blew my mind when, I mean, this is nothing like this story, but when Prince Harry and Meghan Markle, when they needed a place to stay,

and Tyler Perry just offered his house to them. It's like, what? What are you doing? I just love when celebrities are kind of like, well, I can just do what I want now, I guess. I'm here. So take it or leave it. I'm just going to do my thing. You guys can take it or leave it.

Yeah. So he gets involved, which I love because obviously this is like a social justice thing. So he gets involved, which I love because obviously this is like a social justice thing. And he he and Marsha, he helped Marsha file a wrongful death lawsuit against Steve Calkins. Wow. So Tyler Perry offered a $200,000 reward for critical tips in the investigation, which is just awesome. But unfortunately, a judge ruled that the evidence against Culkins was all circumstantial and the arbitrator found the case didn't show caulkins in a good light but ruled the plaintiff's arguments lacked evidence to

show that his acts actually led to williams disappearance so they're like it doesn't look great but like we can't prove it and it's like it's just so frustrating i'd be like can you please look harder but like you can though right like just squint a little more yeah one more time we could sit here in silence and stare at each other until it's too uncomfortable for you to not go look a little harder that's a great tactic actually i learned that in journalism school just hold out on the discomfort until somebody breaks and don't make it be you make it be yeah too bad i always broke it anyway. Too bad I always broke it anyway, even though I was the one. Oh, I'd always break.

You wouldn't even have a chance to hear the silence for me to break. I would just be like, OK, I'm talking now. OK, I gave you a chance. That's why I have a podcast. Poor Allison. Her family, they're really comfortable in silences. And I can't tolerate it. And even they've made it in, I don't know if it was because of me

i know allison's listening to this right now allison tell me when you tell us the truth her and her sister do this thing where like they intentionally don't say anything on the phone just to like like ride out the silence i like they i've heard them a few times go like they'll they'll keep saying like okay like when they're about to hang up, they're like, OK, I love you. And then the other one goes, all right, I love you. And it gets really like slower and slower and more and more silent. And eventually I have to be like, can the two of you hang up? I can't talk. I can't do it.

The tension is too much. It's like I can't take it. And so I don't know if they do it because like I don't know if they do it when i'm not around i have no idea but like it makes me so uncomfortable i i was raised by a woman who's terrified of silence and now i am and the fact that i'm with someone who loves silence i'm like we are not meant to be in this your job relies on you to be not silent all the time yeah i mean well a lot of times people will be like wow you're a social butterfly it's like no i'm just scared of silence i'll just talk until you like me because i don't know any other way like leads me to not shut up because i need to like

make sure everybody's having a good time good time i don't know we sorry i derailed you there sorry no it's good i love talking about all our issues there's so many we could we could do this forever so they said basically he sure sure he didn't cooperate he lied uh to law enforcement and he got fired but like we can't say that what he did led to the disappearance and it was like you put him in his car your car and he never showed up again two people yeah but okay um so the civil rights attorney representing the family of terence williams was named benjamin crump and he forgot to file a motion in time so the court's decision could only be undone by a judge so when he asked for a new trial stating that the covet 19 pandemic made hitting that deadline really difficult and that's why it was delayed which is like so frustrating um because i know the courts got like fizzocked by covid um yes big time

and so despite that in february 2021 judge lauren brody ruled that the arbitration was final and caulkins has been cleared of any wrongdoing no matter what he can only be held accountable for the alleged homicides if there's an actual criminal charge, not a civil charge against him. So we can only hope that something more evidence comes to light. But in thinking about the criminal charges against him, one theory that makes sense of what happened in this case is kind of where I guess a lot of people's minds went. I think mine definitely. Do you remember Neil Stonechild and the Starlight Tours episode that I did in Canada where it was the Starlight Tours? Do you remember Neil Stonechild and the Starlight Tours episode that I did in Canada where it was the Starlight Tours? Do you remember what those are?

No, but I remember asking you if it was the Hollywood bus tour. Like an asshole. Was it? It's something about, is it native people? Yes. So it was the disappearance of First Nations 17-year-old Neil Stonechild in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan. And it led to the exposure of this unspoken, systemically racist practice amongst the police force where police in Saskatoon would target a First Nations or Aboriginal man who was out drinking, coax them into the police car, mislead them, saying they're going to drop them off at the drunk tank. coax them into the police car mislead them saying they're going to drop them off at the drunk tank but police would then drive them to the outskirts of saskatoon kick them out of the car and let them

try to walk their way home through freezing temperatures which often ended up in death because of you know um fucking hypothermia frostbite and they would they would end up dying and it was sort of like i mean it's murder but it was like indirect murder because they would be like oh we just dropped them off but like you did like full negligence like well that's what i said last time i was like intentional negligence yes exactly like it's like an oxymoron but it's like you knew what you were do what what it would lead to like you wanted an out but you did it so that you would have an out yeah it's it's like fully like you didn't hold the gun and shoot it but like you it's yeah you set the perfect setup for somebody

to be killed and and you did it intentionally and for very horrific reasons so that's what a lot of people kind of look at this and go like well maybe um maybe he dropped them off in the everglades and said like find your fucking way home, bud. You know, I mean, we have proof that he was racist. We have two guys who were not white and who got in the back of his car. Plenty of witnesses and never were seen again. Both went to Circle K, which sounds like a euphemism now and uh just never showed up again and it's like i would check circle k man i would dig that whole place up and be like what is going

on over here circle k what like the basement i don't know like that the surrounding property i'd be like well that's the other thing is like the cameras they went through every minute of footage there's no nothing nobody showed up there so like he just said circle k and like what did he mean i don't know maybe he just made something up um so some people think like they dropped them off he dropped them off of like the everglades or somewhere where they like wouldn't presumably find their way back or die of heat exposure who knows just horrible um but either way terrence and felipe have still not been found. And after five years of being missing, they have both been declared dead. So Benjamin Crump, the civil rights attorney who represents the family of Terrence, has demanded Calkins come forward to speak the truth of what happened.

He has commented, the last person to be with them that anybody witnessed was the then Collier County Sheriff's Deputy Calkins. These two young men disappeared off the face of the earth, and the last man to see them was this deputy. His stories were so inconsistent, so unbelievable, and even though he had all those inconsistencies, there were no charges brought. This lawsuit is going to formally say what people for the last 14 years have been informally saying, that he intentionally murdered Terrence Williams and Felipe Santos. And he continued at one point, my God god it's long overdue that he answers questions

calkin sleeps every night in his bed peacefully while marcia and terrence williams children haven't had a peaceful night of sleep in the last 14 years and nor has the santos family so it's been over 17 fucking years um marcia williams is still searching for her son and felipe oh my god she has appeared on a ton of true crime programs hashtag disappeared my favorite personal favorite and it's it's really obviously heartbreaking but like really cool to just hear her side of the story when you're learning about this and like there's something about like hearing directly from the people affected that makes it so much more powerful yeah it's got to be so convincing of like hey what the fuck was going on like the person who talked to you every single day multiple times doesn't know what happened to you.

And she's saying, oh, and the police officer saying like, oh, the sheriff saying he had a reason to go. And she was like, trust me. Like he didn't. You know, it's just so much more compelling to hear to see somebody being like, no, trust me. I know him. I know my son. Everybody knew him he you know so this is sad but in 2017 marcia said you know my biggest wish i wish i could win the lottery

if i didn't have to work and go on i could spend all my time searching for my son between work and searching for him when i can i'm tired and i feel so guilty about not doing more. 17 years now, she's been just searching. Girl, you've done enough. Oh my gosh, you've done all you can. And so if you have any information, obviously, regarding the disappearance of Terrence Williams, I always just urge people to look up a photo. You never know. You know, maybe you've seen him at the Pizza Hut.

Who knows? Anything. Like, if you have any information, please contact the Collier County Sheriff's Office. You can call 1-800-780-8477. You can call Crime Stoppers at 1-800-780-TIPS. Or you can email a tip or call the Q Center 24-hour tip line at 910-232-1687. I know that's a lot of numbers, but we can put that in the show notes. Or you can Google Collier County Sheriff's office and see who to contact.

So at least we know that this asshole is not working there anymore. So at least they got rid of him. Fair enough. But it's like he's still just living the dream, fishing in Iowa and like motherfuckers up having a great old time. And who knows what, I mean, mean we don't know but it could have not been the last time that happened for him too if he's you never know it's not a safe man i would i would argue to be having run around the streets but whatever so you know just another fucking

terrible story for you you're welcome yikes well thank you again for that. Although I did appreciate the, I mean, I always like trying to figure it out. But for some reason, I always start these stories thinking I'm going to like what an asshole I am to think like I'm going to solve it. Like in my head. There's always that, that I get that though. There's always that desire of like, maybe I can help. Maybe I can fix it. Maybe I can solve it.

But I never can. But sometimes people do you know you never you never fucking know and i just that's why it's sometimes so compelling to do these like miss you know unsolved mysteries because it's like somebody knows something that they don't necessarily even realize could be helpful you know yeah that would be a a nice goal to meet one day in in my life or in our life on the podcast is like to be able to like help solve something oh i've i have written that in my in my manifestation journal many times um solve a cold case so i'm manifesting it don't worry if they if someone needs to know like i don't know how many

steaks can one person eat in a single day like if that's the answer that they need to solve a crime i would be the person who could help i'd be like i can tell you it's none of us doubt that for one moment you'd be the first person to call it's the only thing i can think of on how i'd be able to i don't know any other information anyone else could probably i think the only way really or realistically a lot of times is if you have some sort of connection like you're like oh i've seen that guy you know what i mean like if it's just a fluke like i saw that guy working at starbucks or you know something like that where a sighting you know i feel like that's the only real way um unless you kind of go out of your way

to like really try and solve something if you had to if you got to solve a mystery, but it was like a random piece of information, like a random interest, what would you hope that that mystery would, like, what do you think your topic would be that you could consider yourself an expert on? Wait, what do you mean? Like, what would yours be? Steak? It would be steak or naps. Yeah. Oh. oh like if you if you if you had to solve a with like a with like a fun fact that only you would know what like what would you oh my god your random fact would be the way the one that saves

the day it would be like spelling or grammar like something like really stupid semantics semantic literally semantics spelling grammar it would be something like really nitpicky like actually you're using that as an indirect as a direct you know i feel like i would be very very nitpicky about that that's fun fact whenever i have to like write a text or like i felt like a serious text i'll send it to christine be like can you edit it for me because i i don't know what i'm doing and you're better at this than i just because i learned english as a second language and so it but still really young so I think I learned it in like a different way from how most people do. I don't know.

Hey, if you had to solve a mystery with the fact that Skittles are vegan like you were going to be the one that saved the day before me. I've tried. I yell it so often I hoped by now I would have solved something but clearly not. Yeah. Maybe back to the future trivia for me. Oh, you know, I don't know. I think you'd be pretty good at like maybe a Bob's Burger trivia. Oh, that's fun.

There really should be like a murder mystery that's rooted in having to know fun trivia. Like it's like a trivia game, but a murder mystery. And the only way you win is like you have to know random fucking knowledge to be able to could be like an escape room an escape room theme you know i feel like they do those random themed escape rooms we could do like a an animated an adult animated that would be pretty fun though that's a lot of collaborating but i would be a lot of work but i would have a blast anyway catch you at our weird animated escape room where skittles are vegan and uh and that's all you need to know i'll be trapped inside with linda belcher and i will be drunk no not pregnant drunk just drunk drunk on skittles lime skittles only uh i guess that's it we'll see uh next week what is today what is this hell if i know it's

early august so we'll see you on the 15th of august cool we'll see you at some point in august at the very least and that's why we drink