And That's Why We Drink - E252 B-List Ghosts and French Diamond Thief Girlboss Energy

Episode Date: December 5, 2021

Meet us at the floating ghost beer, because it's episode 252 and we're still at the haunted bar! Em finishes their two-part series on the Glen Tavern Inn and the Phillip Experiment that was done there to create a fake (or psychically real?) ghost. Then Eva takes us on a wild heist with French Adventuress Jeanne de Valois-Saint-Rémy aka self proclaimed Comtesse de La Motte, and the Affair of the Diamond Necklace she masterminded and inadvertently helped kick start the French Revolution. Join us for the hottest tea of the week and our very bad French accents... and that's why we drink!

oh welcome everyone to uh an hour into eva and i just hanging out complaining about everything gossiping about everything i infiltrated the conversation at one point to talk about Pokemon cards. I mean, it's a typical Tuesday here. Listen, waxing poetic. I went and got some lunch wine. What kind of wine is that for people who know what wine tastes like? So it's actually one of my favorite Trader Joe's wines. It's Cocobon, the dark. It's like a dark red.

And it's only like seven bucks so i love when people say good wine is also cheap a i i love breaking this the idea that like oh it has to be three hundred dollars for it to be good when it's like two buck chuck is pretty tasty yeah this one was one of my faves and felt like in a good you know homage to the boxed wine of when I first got hired, and we were recording at Christine's house. There's nothing I miss more than the stains of boxed wine on Christine's old wooden table. Aw, the good old days. Also, fun fact, RJ just came into my room, and he said that there was a, apparently our,

you know, you can't see it right now because well i don't want to give it away apparently outside of our apartment right now is uh a 1960s set apparently they're filming some some movie right outside it's the most hollywood thing that's ever happened from my bedroom but he was like look out the window it's the 60s and i was like oh i guess we have time traveled wait like they made the street look 60s so they could shoot outside and on a street wow clearly doing a period piece in an exterior shot for it there's like cars vintage cars all over the place the whole the building looks like i don't want to say where if i tell you what building people will know exactly what street i live across from yeah um but some pretty obvious buildings in Burbank um currently look like the 1960s version

of themselves so oh my god that's kind of like uh my friend when I first first moved back to LA from Colorado a friend of mine she worked in a stationery store she actually um one day texted us and was like you guys the um what was it it was the tiny park from parks and rec was they had set it up in the parking lot right outside the store where she worked that's so fun yeah so forever i like pass that that uh parking lot and i'm like the tiny the tiny park used to live there no i uh it was very it was weird to look out my window i felt like i was in Pleasantville all of a sudden. So anyway, that's the, that's if anyone wants to know what it's like to live in

Hollywood, there you have it. Anyway, Eva, do you have a reason why you drink this week? Oh my gosh, do I? I didn't even think. I know I like demanded you ask me last time. And this time nothing. And then the fine fine I organically asked you and for nothing okay I can think of something let me think well I in a good way I had a great weekend Rachel and I went to Malibu just for a night and she booked us at this like a gorgeous cute Airbnb that was a mini castle it was kind of like a tiny house are you kidding but it was like a like shaped like it was like one turret of a castle. And then you like spiral down this tiny staircase to the bedroom. So you're Rapunzel is what I just heard. Yeah. Basically,

literally, there's like a I'll send you that picture too. Although I look very sleepy because we figured it out like right when we woke up, we were like, there's a door there. And then we opened the door and we were like, out in the like the side of the turret we were like what what a perfect segue into a horror movie where you wake up realizing there was a door potentially unlocked all night long correct it was double locked thankfully so we found out the opposite that we were extra secure unless someone broke in and double locked it from the inside while you slept okay literally that was my fear because like the next night i was like, and if there's a fire and if there's like we watched Scream that night too.

So I was like, what if there was a killer? We would die down here. Yeah. Well, that sounds fun. Every time I go to Malibu, I listen to Miley Cyrus's Malibu on principle. And wow, when you're listening to that right by the ocean, I kind of like, I feel like it's the first time I've listened to a song and I, I I'm in the vibe I'm supposed to be in that Miley wanted me to hear it in. And I'm like, damn, this is a nice little catchy song.

It feels like Malibu once you've looked at Malibu. Yeah. Wow. Who are we? We're just like the LA divas today. Glam. So glam. Speaking of which, like not to sound even more like a Kardashian, but Allison and I just went to Calabasas and we had the best hummus plate I'd ever had in my entire life. So next time you head to Calabasas, let me know and I'll text you the restaurant. It was very tasty. Yeah. Fun fact, I used to spend a lot of time in Calabasas when I worked at Final Draft because the office used to be there. Fun fact, I used to spend a lot of time in Calabasas when I worked at Final Draft because the office used to be there. I mentioned Calabasas and the Kardashians together because I remember there was a Kardashian episode where like Kylie Jenner was thinking about moving to Calabasas. And all of her sisters were like, why the fuck would you move to Calabasas? What is even in Calabasas?

What even is there? And I didn't understand it at the time when I watched that episode. But then I moved to and visited Calabasas and I was like wow they weren't kidding there is nothing to do here don't they all live there now though because yeah yeah right fun fact a lot of celebrities live in Calabasas because it's like a good 45 minutes from like the city like LA proper and all that so uh 45 or an hour maybe would you say you say? Yeah, it kind of depends. I used to have to go in because we worked on East Coast time. So I would drive from my place in, you know, Studio City, North Hollywood area, and it would take like 25 minutes because I was driving at like 630am. Oh, not a problem at all. But on traffic-y situations, yeah, it's definitely a little

different. I know Justin Bieber lives out there with all the Kardashians. Yeah yeah it's definitely a little different but i know justin bieber lives out there with all the kardashians uh yeah it's very pretty but wow there really is nothing to do maybe there's stuff to do now that so many celebrities have moved there but um actually at that same restaurant with the hummus plate we were that was when we realized oh we're in calabasas this makes a lot of sense. Because they were giving us, like, star treatment. Like, for... This restaurant was, like, just like a... I mean, it was just like a regular restaurant.

It wasn't, like, a Four Seasons or something. But Allison, like, put her bag on the floor by her chair. And they, like, raced a chair over so her purse wouldn't have to sit on the floor. And they were like... Oh, my God. We know how expensive your purse must be. And Allison was like like it's for Marshalls like but they're clearly used to like I don't know Dolce and Gabbana shit like

I don't know anyway it was very very very bougie experience anyway a different a different type of experience to talk about is a super haunted house what do you, Eva? I'm so ready. I'm so excited. Let's all take a moment and applaud me for my attempt, my sharp U-turn into a segue that has to do with the ghost stories that I'm going to tell. Listen, I appreciate it. I appreciate a sharp U-turn segue. Thank you. That could be dangerous. Those things can be dangerous.

Physically, sometimes in conversation it's all okay so we have been recording these out of order which means even i actually haven't recorded together in quite a minute so i want to give you a recap on this story because for everyone else they just heard the other half last week but just to give you a quick summary this is the glenn tavern inn and this uh on the third floor it used to be like a speakeasy and a gambling hall and there was a brothel and some of the ghosts included like calvin the cowboy and oh yeah and there were some women who i guess were sex workers at the time who have been brutally murdered at this hotel. And they are said to haunt the rooms that they used to work in.

That's kind of the gist. I mean, it's a haunted inn. You can take a stab at what goes on there. Ghost beers just floating by. Honestly, I've yet to ever cover a story where that is what's happening. And once I do, we can just put the podcast to rest because I'll know exactly where I'm heading. At least I'll tell Christine where to head. Yeah, it's where we're all going to meet.

Yeah. Floating ghost beer. It's where we'll meet in the afterlife, too. And we'll just carry the beer to the next generation. And then I ended saying that there was, i don't know if i ended it exactly this way but i left you on a little bit of a cliffhanger because i said that there is a ghost there that may or may not have been seen or there may be some experiences there was a little twisty of like oh what does that mean get ready for this ride because since i've had a few weeks to do these notes, I ended up doing more research than I needed to.

And I ended up stumbling across quite a tale. So before we get into that, I want to finish up the general hauntings of the Glen Tavern Inn because the real part, it's going to overpower this story. So let me finish up real quick with some of the other ghosts's going to overpower this story so let me let me finish up real quick with some of the other ghosts that happen to be at this hotel yeah give me all the b-list ghosts and then we'll go to the calabasas ghosts oh my you know what let's yeah actually you're kind of it's santa paula so it's not far Yeah. So this part of the haunts I found from a blog called Paranormal World of Reynolds, which, by the way, this blog, chef's kiss. I don't know who Reynolds is, but you are handling the ghosts at this place. You really gave me a lot of information.

so apparently in room 308 investigators have done a seance and it was led by richard and debbie senate which apparently are big paranormal names in the area i'm wondering if they're like the n lorraine warren of like california um but so have i mentioned paracons before no i don't think so i don't know why we haven't gone to one, but Paracons are paranormal conventions. Oh, shit. I think we might have mentioned this before. But anyway, so the Glen Tavern Inn actually has hosted Paracons in the past. Got it. And they'll have investigators come in and do overnight stays, or they'll have lectures the next day, conferences, things like that.

Oh, I love that, because then's like the things that maybe happen like people can like immediately have feedback and like discuss and then like maybe change their strategies or whatever wow so remember everything you just said verbatim for the next half of this story okay so also did you like my like attempt at like a like a like i'm a fucking greaser or something my hair is at that point like, it's like kind of too floppy to, to do anything for itself, but it's also like not long enough. It hasn't fallen yet. So just kind of.

You did have that like perfect, like curl, like one single curl the other day when I saw you, that was just like, I appreciate that. You're always the one to mention that one curl. You're I, someone has to,

and I'm glad it's you. It's just very like grease lightning of you. you allison literally has called it the danny zucco so yeah i yeah exactly it's i like to think of myself as the non-scientologist john travolta so thank you um yes okay so richard and debbie senate they were at this paracon being held at the Glen Tavern Inn. And during this, I guess Debbie, it's very much Ed and Lorraine, where that one of them is like kind of a demonologist. And one of them says that they have some clairvoyant abilities, much like Ed and Lorraine Warren.

So during this, Debbie, the clairvoyant, she said she'd spoken to a man named Asa morton uh who was looking and this is a ghost by the way she's like talking to a spirit from beyond got it she makes contact with this spirit named asa morton who was looking for his daughter lucille who i guess lucille also ended up showing up during the session and making contact saying that she was looking for her father asa Morton. Oh my God. It's a ghostly meetup. Just like you, me and Christine. They're just, they're just trying to hang, you know?

And when she asked both Asa and Lucille about their history, I guess they were able to tell the group of investigators that they had both died in the home, which the inn now sits on top of. So it makes sense why they haunt the area. Got it. Another medium during the same session got a top of so it makes sense why they haunt the area got it another medium during the same session got a vision of a woman in a garden and later on investigators were able to find out that asa morton died in 1887 a year before his daughter who died in her garden so how did she die in her garden that's so sad i think she it seemed it sounded sudden like some sort of heart like a

heart attack or a stroke or something but so it's interesting that they didn't even have that information and they were able to later read about the property and find out that that whole plot happened that the whole story was true so also during that session they so they talked to asa and lucille and they also talked to another spirit which came forward named madge uh who's and madge said that her and her husband owned the inn so i guess they thought that it was a different time period and so she said oh me and my husband owned the inn she said her husband's name was charles and that he had just gone golfing and uh when the investigators asked oh where is this golf course he's at uh she said oh charles and that he had just gone golfing and uh when the investigators asked oh where is this golf course he's at uh she said oh charles uh just went golfing in sadaquay so research later found out

that quote they did own the inn and in 1957 charles died at the sadaquay Country Club while playing golf. Oh my God. Isn't that crazy? Wait, so this is a different family, but like the daughter randomly died in a garden. Now the guy randomly died playing golf. Well, they like were able to, so during this investigation, I don't know if it was like some sort of seance session they were hosting, but every ghost that came in was giving them information they were able to completely like find valid valid proof of later

so like they had asa and the daughter who died in the garden they were able to uh prove that or confirm that and then they had madge and the husband at who golf, and all that information ended up being true. Wow. So after the spirit of Madge left, another spirit came forward named Catherine, who apparently worked on a naval base. Hmm. You're gonna, I think you'll like this spirit the most,

purely because Catherine is spelled like Catherine Hahn, who I know you love. Love. Love. Love, who I also now love. Love. Love. Love. Who I also now love. And by the way, I don't know. I did tell you about the new, the WandaVision spinoff. You did. My brain is still exploding.

Yeah, yeah. Catherine Hahn's getting her. I can't even handle it. If the theme song isn't Agatha all along, I will absolutely scream. No. Like what could top that? Not much. Not much. I'm telling you a whole absolutely scream no like what could top that not much not much i'm telling you a whole lot of nothing is what so the the spirit of katherine han shows up

just kidding she can never die oh no she's with us forever and uh this spirit said i'm looking for a party and then apparently pointed to one of the people at the session and went you look like someone who knows how to have a good time is this christine as a ghost because this sounds so much like her i literally wrote the notes i was like i think catherine was misspelled it's actually christy so apparently catherine was a stenographer for uh the navy and she said that they kept female employees at the inn so she had to live there but would sneak men upstairs to have a party with them scandalous party for two and the investigators asked her if there was something that the team

didn't know about katherine or didn't know that katherine should mention like just give us more information about the the hotel or yourself so we can like corroborate that this is all true and they ended up getting EVPs on a recorder in response where a female voice said secret and a male voice said don't tell him Kathy oh I think Catherine partied a little too hard one night. I think. Oh, and you think that's how she died? Maybe. I don't know.

Maybe. I don't know. I love that. Like that. She's still like if that even if that is the case, she's still partying in the afterlife. It wasn't like traumatic enough to stop her part. Like she was like, I'm still gonna have a good time. I feel like she would be the only woman who would know how to handle like casper's

uncles like those like those three real rowdy guys who know how to party i feel like they only let catherine come and no other people she'd be the only one that could convince them that the food's actually just dropping right out of them yes i think she she has a way with them probably um so later they ended up doing research and in an old newspaper they found quote hotel leased by government and lived in by bookkeepers and stenographers working at port hunami which was the the navy base so it was also completely confirmed everything katherine was saying holy crap the next spirit was elaine who apparently was confused because she wanted to be with her family this one's gonna kind of if you're stoned you're gonna have a good time so as katherine

would say so uh the next spirit was elaine who was confused because she wanted to be with her family she knew what dated was she knew it was present day and she said that she could see them they were like where are you what do you see she said she could see them working on her as in surgery and gave the name of a hospital that i guess currently existed oh so this ended up becoming a conversation amongst the investigators because eventually then she like faded away and they didn't get they didn't make contact again with her a lot of people think that this was not a ghost but maybe someone who was about to become a ghost and maybe someone who maybe died on the table like at a hospital nearby and she like somehow astral projected to the

closest group trying to make contact on the other side oh my god that's so creepy and sad i feel can you imagine coming back the next day and being like, they're like, oh, how was your surgery? And it's like, girl, I was on the other end of a seance. Like, that's how it went. And like- Yeah, oh my God, yeah, if you come back and like have the like, oh, I went towards the light.

It turns out it was a candle and some like randos at a haunted tavern. Yeah, she was like, I was getting my wisdom teeth out and now I'm in a haunted hotel and everyone's chanting around me? What is going on? Oh, that's so creepy. So anyway, that one kind of blew my mind because they assume they couldn't get, like, hospital records on a stranger or something, especially if it was present day.

So they have no idea what happened, but their hope is, like, someone kind of crossed over for a second and went back to their body. But it was a moment of astral projection versus ghosts, which then brings up the question of when you're doing seances are you actually only talking to spirits are you talking to astral versions of currently alive people i mean it could you could really god that's true you're crazy with it um so in room 208 women have been heard up there when nobody has been checked in they'll still hear voices and sounds of women um during an evP session, they got the name Mary, and then they got a male EVP one time saying, opening up the door, what do you want in here? We don't want you here.

So that's a polite way of saying get out. Get out, please. And when an investigator asked if the spirit could touch him, the male EVP said, yes, sir. Oh, I mean, at least they got consent. At least they got consent. That's nice. That's nice.

Yeah. And the other people walking by, I guess during this session, people walking past the room were really loud. And so the investigator closed the door so there'd be silence in the room. And they got an EVP of someone saying, thank you, which I love that it's like this curmudgeon-y like oh god they're being too annoying out there thank you for closing the door me as a ghost hi i'm old it's too loud i have sensory issues i have sensory issues i'm in the other world i don't want to hear you fools an investigator uh also heard sounds outside of the room one time so uh sometimes when you are ghost hunting if you pick up or if you see a sound in real life that you want to be able to

debunk right away when you're listening on the recorder later so if you're listening to the recording you hear a sound you might want to assume that it's a ghost but a lot of times in your ghost hunting you will out loud say oh that was the door closing just so you can kind of write it off so people are paying attention to that audio um so i guess they heard sound outside this investigator while the recorders were on heard the sound outside and he said out loud ambient voices from the hallway just to kind of debunk that sound gotcha and a female voice said uh so they said ambient voices from the hallway and a female voice said my room too as in like not just the hallway my room too yo me again as it goes hi it's also noisy in here there was another male evp that

said let us in the room old old man, let us in. And then one investigator said he was going to use the ovulus and he got EVPs that said, the what? Get away from him. So I love that they're addressing like, we don't know what an ovulus is. Like, don't come near us with that shit yeah and that works well with my personal experiences with ghosts because a lot of them if you aren't getting readings i know anyone who's a skeptic could just be like or there's no fucking ghosts by the way but if you're not getting readings one there could be no ghosts in the room okay skeptics two a lot of them if

they're from a much older time and they still think it's that day, they still think present day is like the 1600s. A lot of them are scared of a ghost tech that we use. So I have I have been in situations where I've had to where a ghost has told me they were scared of the machines and I had to teach them about the machines. And once they understood it, they were much more active. So it makes sense with my personal experiences that this spirit was like what's an ovulus like don't come near me with that i like that it was like what you said it was like a ghost that seemed like it was protecting another ghost almost like don't go near him like yeah i can see that's very scary and they were homies they were like don't come at him with that guy also on the

ovulus they got the words order and restore as in like restore order. Oh, God. So like the investigator was like, how can I restore order for you? And the female EVP said, please leave me alone. Honestly, fair, fair. Yeah. Get the fuck away from me. I don't consent to you being in my space.

This is my body and I don't like that. So then they switched to the spirit box, the thing that goes. Oh, God. and i don't like that so then they switched to the spirit box the thing that goes oh god and uh they got a male evp saying stop it and then they asked did you say stop it and the male evp said yes i did confirming and then another evp saying i'm from britain so there you go the other one's like but I don't want to stop I want to keep talking it's like I got a whole backstory we're doing icebreakers right here's a fun fact about me two truths and a lie the investigator said quote I verbally note that again we are in room 208 and an EVP says yeah I'm like'm like, yeah, we're all here. Here we are.

By the way, again, reminder, this is all from the blog Paranormal World of Reynolds. So give them credit. Please go check them out. This is like all, I hope not verbatim. I haven't done my notes in a while, but I like to think I didn't just copy. I don't think I copy and pasted this, but this is all from that blog.

So just please go give them credit. So there was also an EVP later that they heard of someone saying, I'm sitting next to you. And then the voice got closer to the microphone. Oh, no. And said, because I like you. Oh, my God. Wait, me again. Which like it could be very sweet it could be very creepy it

could be very funny it could also be very historically correct because this was a room where there were sex workers and maybe this was some dialogue from back then wow that's so interesting a different times they were in room 206 someone said is anybody in this room and they later got a voice of an older man saying i'm sorry let me just repeat it so it's it's as sweet and pure as i want it to sound so the investigator said is there anybody in room 206 and they later checked the evps and they got an old man saying, we're in 203. Glad to meet you. Oh my God. Is that not so sweet?

It's so sweet. It's like you're close, but I'm over here. I also like that they're like, we're in another room. But like, hi. Like you stay there. I stay here. Hi, Emily. Hi from there.

The final ghost I want to talk about, which is what's going to lead into this real topic today which is the ghost of pearl yes i think i remember you mentioning i mentioned pearl at the end and there is uh one i don't know what the right word is psychic medium clairvoyant i'm i'm unsure usually i just say someone with some clairvoyant skills. If that is not accurate and you are one of the three, please let me know. So I properly phrase it in future episodes. The one of the people that you're going to hear the name of a lot is

Heather Woodward, who I'm pretty sure is, is one of those three has some sort of clairvoyant skills and has done automatic writing sessions and things like that. So the ghost of Pearl, Heather Woodward, she stayed at the Glen Tavern Inn with a group of people. And during an automatic writing session, this is what she found out about the ghost of Pearl.

Heather says, quote, Pearl was of French descent. She wanted to be a star. She really liked to count her money. She has a very hearty laugh. She has a broader nose, red nails, red lipstick. Oh, so without you understanding any part of this concept yet, that was foreshadowing for something we're about to really get into. Oh, so hang on to that description of Pearl, because we're not going to talk about her again for a little bit because Pearl is actually a very big, is a part of paranormal history. She's not just a ghost of the Glen Tavern Inn.

She means so much more. My God, we're coming for you, Pearl. So let's travel back to 1972. coming for you pearl so let's travel back to 1972 the society of psychical research we know it well at this point if you have been listening to the show for a million years there is a toronto chapter the tspr and in 1972 they decided to run an experiment called the philip experiment okay which is the the main topic of this week's episode um so even though we started and you thought that we were covering the rest of the glenn tyward end it has become an episode under the subject line of the philip experiment oh and we're like going across the across the continent to the other side. We sure are.

I love it. A little California, a little Canada, my two favorites. So, okay. The Toronto SPR ran an experiment. And the experiment, I don't know if this is the official hypothesis, but an overarching question was, can we create or manifest ghosts out of sheer will so and i will get into what that means it it became a little tricky for me so i i will probably do my thing where i over explain it so other people are less confused than i was i'll probably be the most confused i'm happy for an over explanation perfect okay so uh this experiment

it was led by dr a.r george owen and it was overseen by dr joel witten and so the two of them uh created this experiment where there were going to be eight people in the test group so the eight participants happened to be one of their wives named iris a woman named margaret sparrow who was one of the original chairpersons of canada's uh chapter of mensa which is like the genius club oh my god yeah there was a guy named lauren and his wife andy there was an engineer named al an accountant named bernice a bookkeeper named Dorothy, a sociology student named Sydney, and Sue. And I don't know. And all I know about Sue is I think she used to be a nurse for the Air Force. I found for some reason she was like not I think someone just very honestly with good intentions accidentally left Sue off of the list from the original site and i had to go digging for the

eighth person so uh sue i i'm pretty sure was a nurse in the air force and she also ends up co-authoring remember i said one of the people was um one of the other people in the test group was one of the doctor's wives oh yeah one of the doctor's wives her name's iris and sue end up later co-authoring a book about the philip experiment oh my god i love that that's so cute uh so the people that were chosen all eight of these people they were part of the spr's membership but none of them had any admitted spiritual gifts so they were not really bringing anything based in mediumship to the table so they the the main point of this uh study was they were going to create a fake ghost like just amongst the eight of them they were just gonna it was basically like

a writer's room and they were going to create a fake fucking ghost with as much original backstory information as possible using pictures doing whatever they could to create a life. And then they were going to, after using this like collective group thing or this like collective unconscious or subconscious, they were going to try to make contact eventually with the spirit during a seance to see if they basically pulled something out from the other side. to see if they basically pulled something out from the other side. Ooh. If that makes sense. Yeah.

It's very like, like, like ghosty, like a ghosty version of like a Frankenstein almost of like you're creating, like bringing life to something. Like you're bringing afterlife to something maybe that like wasn't there before. Yeah. And I wonder, I feel like there was a bunch of like pocket hypotheses that like weren't actually part of the main study but there was i'm sure there's a bunch of little like sub questions about it like are we creating some are we actually creating a brand new being on the other side or are we using our collective group think and actually manifesting someone that already existed and we're just using our potential mediumship to to get information?

Like, I'm sure there's a million other side things that they could have been testing or at least wondering about while they were doing this. But the main goal was just to see if they could create or manifest a being purely out of will. Yeah, it's so interesting. Which is apparently called a thought being. Oh. I didn't know there was a term for it. It's also a tulpa, which I will probably cover that as its own topic later. So I'm not going to get into it.

But from what I saw, I think it has like, it has history and it was like a Tibetan belief. I don't know enough about it to talk on it. But I think the concept is like, are we creating a tulpa where we are thinking enough about one thing that we are using enough mental energy to manifest it even though it never existed before? Gosh, that's so interesting that also feels a little bit like i remember um i listen it was an episode of last podcast on the left once about it was like a ufo encounter i forget exactly which one it was but they were talking about how like the idea that that maybe some ufo encounters aren't exactly aren't exactly the way that people portray them but that they're more like psychic phenomenon that like they happen,

that they really happen like in real life. Not like you're just, you know, whatever the dismissive thing of like, you're just imagining it, but that it happens, but that it's like in some ways created out of the way, just the way that like your specific brain works,

your specific, like everything works. It's just like, I remember like some. Such an overwhelming thought. Yes. Correct. I remember being like, I remember like them. Such an overwhelming thought. Yes, correct. I remember being like, I'm going to think about that, like try not to,

but also like going to have to think about that for the next like, like every week for the rest of my life. It's one of those moments where like I would, if again, if I were like a, like a little stoner, I would totally put that in my back pocket for something to really think about. And like, I would probably not get very far,

but like, I would have a blast trying to like solve the Da Vinci code. That is what is a thought being. Yeah. Or like an experience, like a UFO of like how much was real, how much of it was, you know,

based in me trying to put pieces together and make sense of it. How much of it was my own manifestation how much i mean yeah like right like how much is create like you interpreting a situation that you don't understand into something completely different like that kind of idea is just so beyond yeah beyond so this is the ghost that the group created together so they sat around they were like okay this is the ghost that we're going to try to manifest with all of our might. His name was Philip Aylesford.

He was born in 1624. He was English. He was knighted at 16 years old. Oh my God. Good for him. I know. Like it's almost as if it's not real. Um, he was from a very early age. He, uh, joined the military. He fought in the English civil war.

He became friends with Charles the second. Um, I, I guess through his military career ended up becoming close to Charles the second. I think at one point he was even a spy for him during the war. Oh. He ended up marrying a woman named Dorothea, who also lived in his town. But she was apparently a very cold woman, although beautiful. But he was very unhappy in the marriage. And while married to her,

ended up falling for a woman named Margot. And I guess Dorothea found out about margo at some point because uh philip ended up i guess having margo move in nearby like in his like living in the stable or some bullshit like like not a good life for margo but like flew too close to the sun a little bit and so dorothea found out that her husband was like sneaking another woman into their into their property and sleeping with her and so dorothea accused her of witchcraft and had her put to death oh shit mark so margo was put to death margo was put to death so out of guilt for what for philip

i guess causing her death or not standing up for her when she was accused of witchcraft or whatever however the story goes he had such grief that the love of his life was killed by his wife that he threw himself off of a high wall and he died at 30 years old oh my god i for a minute like forgot that all of this was written and like not i was like these people completely fake completely fake it's so specific it's like it really is like a writer's room it's just to to show how dedicated they were to making this being as real as possible uh i mean and also it leads to like questions about like the power of suggestion. Like when things are happening, is it just fitting into like your, your storyline that

you literally created? So, you know, so it's, there's, there ends up being a lot of criticism about the complete lack of scientific, scientific method here. But so we're ignoring that completely for the Philip experiment. So they created this completely random guy with that very in-depth backstory some members even visited parts of england they thought that philip would live and took pictures of it so they made like literally like a storyboard had pictures of his life and someone did a sketch of him uh just based on the things that they had all described

eventually they could all kind of have this image of what Philip might look like. So they were all able to sketch a picture of him. They had all these other photos of his life all like in the room with them. So they were basically surrounded by Philip and his world. They wrote a whole season and they even casted him. Right. This is so Hollywood.

I'm sensing a theme in this episode. They would also i think i some sources said for a few months but other sources said a full fucking year they would sit in that room and they would just meditate on philip and think about philip as hard as they could and just imagine his life and like really try to basically crazy making convince themselves that philip was real yeah that sounds like it goes into the territory of like what is it scrying when you just look into a mirror for so long that something like manifests into orca you know it maybe it's maybe like a like a bloody mary situation where you look in the mirror and eventually there's an illusion that convinces you that what you were looking for is what you found i don't know it's like how do you know what's real

or what's not i mean i guess it's all again the scientific method is not there fair so this was apparently one big old guess in the 70s so they that fall in 1972 so i guess it had to have been just few months, but it's still a long time where they were all really committing to like getting together and talking about Philip as if you were real and all this stuff. They eventually by fall start having sessions where they now are trying to make contact with Philip. And after a long time, after many, many sessions sessions i think this was also maybe the month to a year nothing happened during these sessions nothing happened at all then a psychologist who heard about the philip experiment his name was kenneth bartledore he heard about the experiment he said well no wonder nothing's happening when you're trying to make contact with philip because you're doing it in such a clinical way.

You have to do like an old school traditional seance and like find this guy. So the second that they switched up the environment and made it a little spookier, they started getting picking up on stuff right away. Oh, my God. Which is its own other whole experiment we could get into of like, oh, does environment really change the spirit world's activity that much? It could get we could get into of like oh does environment really change the spirit world's activity that much you know it could get we could get real crazy with it we're ignoring that of course because sub pocket experiments are not part of the philip experiment so they were dimming the lights they were like uh holding hands like you went around a table and they were really thinking about Philip and soon people started feeling a spirit in the room. They started feeling like a cool breeze hit them. They started hearing whispers. Most often they were hearing the table raps, which like I still

have to convince myself are not actual like Hamilton raps. Also, i like that of all the raps in the world i picked fucking lynn manuel miranda hamilton not like tupac like okay i mean it's current in your life i also just saw hamilton like two days ago so let's blame it on that before people like really like just drag me through the fucking mud for like not giving a single rapper any credit um but yeah so they started hearing table knockings table raps uh in intelligent response to questions about philip's life so that was the thing that really convinced them that they were talking to philip because if they said oh philip like did you die when did you die or you know how you know tell us about your wife were you married and they were getting intelligent responses but one of the problems that comes from that is that they were asking

questions they already knew the answers to because they literally created his fucking life so if they were saying like oh knock if you were knock once if you've been married and then it knocks it's like well yeah you literally created dorothea and like you know so again scientifically i'm sure skeptics brains are exploding right now and so people could very easily say that these responses they were getting were probably just from their collective subconscious that someone was knocking on something or making a sound or maybe they honestly did not know that they were making the table knocks, but they were creating some sort of sound that gave them the answer they were hoping for based on what they were literally looking for. Yeah. It's just so

interesting because I was thinking like, it is obviously like fodder for skeptics. Yeah. To be like, well, yeah, if they already knew, but then I feel like at the on the other end like obviously anything is good to have like a lens to look at right like if you're looking at something in a specific way like even when you're I feel like even when you're just kind of generally ghost hunting it's like you're you know that you might I mean I feel like if you know the area you would know the history and you would also kind of right that's true yeah you would know like some specific things too maybe not as specific because i feel like you're right like like you were saying before sometimes it's always it's like a little more impactful when you hear something and then can look it up later with no context and be like oh my god that thing but that's such a good point that like you could go anywhere and already know the context before

so yeah i mean like you could go to like alcatraz and be like, is there a prisoner here? Like, right. Yeah, exactly. Because I feel like it's also sort of a scientific thing of like you can never fully take away your bias. Right. Unless you do some like dead files shit and someone actually does not know the history of a very random area. I mean, it would have to be such a specific thing. Yeah. That's such a good point so that being said one thing that they could not explain was when the table started moving by

itself yeah and the tape apparently like to a point where to this day the philip experiment has not been explained like it like they can't explain the table moving and now i guess so much time has passed no one can like go back and see like if anyone had strings or wires or contraptions but all of their hands were together the whole time and the table started out as slightly shifting but other times it would move across the entire room and the room had thick carpet like there's no reason it should be just like gliding everywhere ew um sometimes the table would even just balance on one leg for them on command ew i don't that's creepy the table would dance around it would like rock to like the beat of music it glided up to certain people if they were late to the session

like a dog welcoming you home like oh my god it would run up to them it would chase them around the room it would corner people what and the table was all over the place she's the main character for sure she was definitely the protagonist of her own story potentially her villain story yeah her villain backstory so uh the group was also able to see physical evidence on command such as like getting the lights to dim or get bright again they never were able to explain this where they would say philip can you make the lights dimmer in here and it would and then it would intelligently come like bring the lights back up to brightness when asked. So, I mean, that's pretty convenient because, you know, sometimes when you just want a clapper and you don't have one. Literally, it was just Alexa before her time.

It was just Alexa's grandmama, you know? Oh, my God. So historical. What a context. Little family tree. I'm going to have to put my robot my robot into ancestry.com later and see what i come up with oh my gosh so during one session the group actually also saw a white mist floating above the table um at other times they said that the table felt like it had an electrical current

running through it because there was so much energy in the room um interestingly and also i'm sure this is as you said fodder for skeptics is that the phenomena would lessen if there were less than four people in the group that day so if they had only four if they only had like three or less people come in to have a session with philip that day there would be less activity of the day so you could see it from one end of like just like a seance the like, just like a seance, the more people or even a Ouija board, the more people doing it, the more energy you're giving the spirit. So that way you get more activity. Or a skeptic could be like, oh, there were less people around to like, pull wires and like move the table around or there were less people around to do to be giving off

the solution. I guess so. But that's like less skeptical to me just because it's like, I feel like it would be less inclined to be everyone. Maybe it would be like one or two people, you know, like it would be like maybe specific people. And I feel like, you know, it would be nice to know if they like rotated those people.

Like, and it sounds like maybe they were based on like, you know, if it was less or more people, like it seems like people are coming in and out. And so if it was like a rotating group of people that would maybe lessen the chance that it was, you know, if it was less or more people, like it seems like people are coming in and out. And so if it was like a rotating group of people, that would maybe lessen the chance that it was, you know, any given one or two people that were like pulling strings or doing whatever, you know. True. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, they were doing this for a long time.

They did this all the way into like 1975, I think, like three years ago. So, wow. I mean, if they it's not like it was always the same people missing sessions. I don't think so. Yeah. Or like if someone like was sick that day, like the activity would weaken. So it's interesting. Also,

another curious part is that in 1974, the group decided to take the summer off from doing their regular sessions, but many of them reported poltergeist activity, followed them home until the sessions picked up again. Y so it's almost like philip they had manifested this energy which followed them home this all it's it's it's such a shame that i can't hear christine screaming about this because it's it really does fall into one of her biggest fears which is if you give it enough mental energy it becomes true or it's more aware of you or it might exist a little more clearer so yeah and this would be christine's worst fear of like let's

create a complete random fucking ghost and now we've given it so much energy not only does it exist apart from our own group think but now it, it's following us home and causing problems. And like, it was completely manifested of my own doing. Yeah. And also because it's manifested and because like you either did or didn't set the rules for it probably means that there's a lot of like, you know, the kind of like Aladdin genie type, like, you know, like you have to be like really specific about the rules or like, maybe it doesn't have certain rules. So it doesn't like, you know, have like a certain thing of like like you can't follow this person home like some right entities might you know right yeah that is really scary we're actually coming up on something soon that is

that's such a great segue if only it got said like two minutes later but remember that remember that later but this is also like further proof of like again i did not do enough research on what a tulpa is uh yet so but what i have understood is that it's it's so much of a of a uh a manifestation from your mind alone that uh some people believe that a tulpa once it has been manifested almost separates itself from the person who originally created it. And now it's its own being. So it's not like you're creating a being that now still follows the complete storyline you started with,

but it has so much energy. It's now actually become real. You know what it is? I don't know if this is your generation. Did you watch, were you a SpongeBob person? You know, I did miss SpongeBob by a teeny bit damn it okay so

i know so spongebob does this i mean it's literally frankendoodle for anyone who knows what i'm talking about frankendoodle where no oh no eva we'll have to go frankendoodle frankendoodle is one of the most like popular spongebob episodes where basically he like i think he wanted a friend and he found this magic pen pencil or something where he just drew a version of himself like he or i don't know if he wanted a friend i don't remember how the beginning of it goes but he found this magic pencil and he drew a version of himself that looked kind of like a frankenstein version of spongebob and but he comes to life and becomes his own monster and starts like taking over the town. But so it's very much like in a very small way.

That's the Philip experiment where like he manifested a creature and then the creature just became its own being. And now there's like there's really no telling what it's going to do. So in some ways, I don't know. It's probably really insensitive to compare that to a tulpa because it's got its own history. But it is interesting that it's the concept of like creating something that becomes its own being outside of what you initially had intentions for. So I don't want to offend anybody. But Frankendoodle is the closest thing that my very ignorant mind can come up with so far. And I'm feeling a lot of Frankendoodle energy from philip yeah yeah so uh anyway so the group begins recording themselves now to see if

there's any visual or audio evidence that they can pick up during a session with philip because so much stuff is going on they just took the summer off and poltergeist activity was happening so they bring back the sessions they also start recording because they want to debunk this table moving that's going on. So now that they're recording it, they were able to get some of the actual table wrappings caught on audio. They sent that to the SPR, the Society of Psychical Research, and they were able to say that those knocks, quote, had a different acoustic quality than normally created table wrappings. What? Oh, that's so interesting because that is kind of scientific, right? It's like, you can recreate it in real life and be like, this is what this is. Yeah. With like a hand to the,

hand to the table. Yeah. It's not the same. Like, yeah, I'm like seeing audio. Like, I feel like, you know, I edited for so long. It's like, you can know so specifically, like I literally, I mean, I know Christina's talked about this too, but like, I know what all of your ums look like. I know what all of, like, almost all of the words are like, I know what that is. Like, such a randomly intimate relationship that you have with me where, like, nobody else on earth knows what my ums and throat clears look like on an audio file, but you certainly do.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, yeah, think of it like that, exactly. clears look like on an audio file but you certainly do yeah yeah yeah and so um so yeah think of it like that exactly uh basically after this very quickly word started spreading about the philip experiment and the media got interested canadian broadcasting did a 60 minute documentary called philip the imaginary ghost which apparently is now somewhere on dvd i don't know if that's true or not but also kind of rude we don't know if that's true or not. Also, kind of rude. We don't know that he's imaginary yet. Like, that's still the experiment.

Also, hurtful about my group think that he's still imaginary. He's very real. He's definitely presenting himself in certain ways. Sounds like a very good way to get haunted. Documentary producers. And also, City TV. I think they're also based in Canada. They did an episode of World of the Unexplained based on Philip. And CBS brought in a crew to film a session with a live audience for a television documentary called Man Alive.

Oh, interesting. The live audience filming caught noises that could not be explained, lights going on and off on command, and most significantly, that darn table levitated off the ground in front of a live studio audience. Okay, that's definitely, well, I mean, I don't know. skeptical because I'm like oh it's almost as if if this were a hoax and everybody was like doing this like just to like get a really interesting story in an SPR journal it like it went over their heads and now they're about to do something in front of a live studio audience and they have to fucking bring it because before then the table never levitated it's not like unless the ghost is a Gemini or something they didn't tell me about that and like needs the attention of more people but then you could argue that there were more people in the audience. So more people gave it

more energy. It's exactly. But then also, too, I kept thinking back to like, I always love your, oh my gosh, the medium episodes of like the stories of like the, the people who would like do the old timey, like, you know, like, all the like cloth and, you know, various orifices and all of that. So it's like all of that happened in front of live audiences too. That's true. In my mind though, if it's like a live studio television audience,

technology is good enough for people to not be fooled by cheesecloth in your nose, you know? I don't know, but I mean, hey. That's true, yeah. Maybe not. Also during the 70s let's remember that was an era of like amityville horror and the enfield poltergeist and like all these huge demons like ed lorraine warren's career was just taking off so like one day i would love

to do just i would love to do an episode where i just do the timeline of what's going on all over the world at the same yes time just to be like well during this point this is also happening on the other side of the world so maybe just what sorry that also just made me think too that like if people are already if it's all about energy and like bringing in your own like energy if people are already primed to to like think about paranormal shit and then they're bringing that energy to it and if it is really energy-based it's like they're just skyrocketing energy i'm telling you there's nothing more interesting to me than parapsychology of like is it a demon or were you primed to to see that did you want to

see that were you hoping to see that did you manifest to see that or is it a good old-fashioned demon like like what is it so fun fact this live audience recording apparently there are clips of it on the internet but there is no full raw footage to be found anywhere but some random clips of it have been found by one of the original members of like the philip experiment their son i guess found a bunch of random clips i found two clips on youtube that are literally just called the philip experiment um but i can't tell if they were legitimate or a recreation of events because it looks like they're the actual people and i don't i don't know if they were recreating it for something i don't know i can't tell if it's legit or not but i know it's the

original people i think maybe they're actors i don't fucking know anymore um but everything is a thought experiment everything is probably not real so after the philip experiment got so big they also started having other groups do this i think it was done through different labs and different researchers but other groups started doing basically the same philip experiment but manifesting other spirits so uh i think only like a couple months later people tried to do uh the experiment uh by manifesting a ghost named lilith who was a french canadian spy during world war ii oh love lilith love lilith there was also sebastian who was a medieval alchemist love sebastian oh my god they keep getting better because then there was axel a man from the future because now i'm like wait are we summoning ghosts or are we summoning time

travelers because if i could have done that shit this whole time and then there's one that actually like got its own name called the skippy experiment because in uh sydney australia they created the spirit of a 14 year old ghost named skippy cartman and apparently she gave a lot of similar evidence that philip did with the table wrappings and scratches on the wall and stuff like that huh apparently i don't know if it was all of the experiments but an overwhelming amount of the experiments where they talked to Lilith or Sebastian or Axel, they all resulted in, quote, similar manifestations, including rappings, noises and table moving. So it's interesting that it makes you wonder, like, are they all real or are they all fake? And if they're all real, why are all these manifested ghosts showing themselves in the same

way like why it's almost like they have like some mo like oh well if it's a manifested ghost you can expect the table to move around a lot versus if it's a real ghost the doors will open like it's weird that it's all similar yeah or if it i wonder too like it would be super like you know a little bit less fun ghost wise but even if it's not ghost related if it's like something specific in like you know human brain chemistry that like if you're you know creating a story like that maybe it's like a storytelling part of your brain that then here like i don't know how that would connect to like you know tables levitating but i wonder if there is some kind of like connection there that would be like yeah you think about

writing on a piece of paper and then you think about a table and then like you manifest like a sound there or something, you know, right. It's very weird. Yeah. Like it's weird. It's like,

it's like, there's almost a clinical, it's almost like they're writing out like a, a textbook way that only manifested spirits will show themselves at first or something. Yeah. Or if you're like manifesting connections somehow by thinking about, Or like, Oh my God. Yeah. I true. Oh my God. Do I have any, no, I don't have any weed here.

I was like, this is like, do I need some weed for this? I'm telling you, this gets silly. Like if either of us were like stony baloney right now, it would be this. First of all, we wouldn't get through the notes. Cause every time I would just be this first of all we wouldn't get through the notes because every time i would just be like mind blown all over again correct correct so in many of the other experiments there were similar manifestations and this and this implied to the researchers that at least because it was happening consistently every time they tried to manifest a thought being um that anybody with enough mind power and enough willpower can create paranormal energy aka it was a big experiment in the fact that like the mind is fizzucking powerful and fascinating and scary and possible explanations for this beyond it just being a hoax and everyone

was in on it every time they think that the participants were just desperately looking for confirmation bias anytime something potentially paranormal happened they thought that their own collective unconscious could have actually created a tulpa or a thought being or some energy manifestation some so one of the arguments is like hey it just really fucking happened and really it could just be a manifestation of everyone's collective group think combined with a shared delusion um of like like kind of like full i'm guessing it's the same of like folio or whatever yeah christine likes to talk about where like it was just like this shared fallacy uh i mean they were literally sitting in a room for a year with pictures of this fake person like trying to convince himself he was real so like it's not hard to imagine they all were just

like working off of each other and ramping each other up every time there was a sound and it so it could have also been from what one of the doctors themselves think the doctor on the team he says that it could have been a combination of their sub psyches working together when it came to like the knockings and for intelligent responses but as for the movement of the table and the command of light switching on and off he could not explain it he was like i don't fucking know what that was a lot of critics say this is complete horseshit everything because there was no scientific method they believe that both the experiments were just a combination of confirmation bias and the uh ideometer effect which is basically i don't know if i said that right but it's the concept that um like with

ouija boards where they think like oh there's some sort of like hypnic jerk or or your body is you're you're subconsciously doing things because you want to see the answer interesting so it was some sort of like oh it was your own body subconsciously giving you what you want huh um but it does make you think that if like paranormal activity could simply only exist because other people's collective subconsciousness has wanted to find activity it makes you it makes you think in some ways about like every haunted location you've ever been to was it really haunted or does have enough people over the years just given it enough mental energy that something exists or that would explain why skeptics don't ever experience anything but believers do because they've just it's basically

just the power of suggestion and their own their own interest in finding something yeah it's like the paranormal the secret you gotta want it hard enough it's the secret it's the secret it's love languages it's probably a reality show mixed in there it's a it's a lot of chaos um and fun fact because you mentioned this earlier about like if it was its own individual being over time um and had they set rules for it or not set rules for it what i'm calling uh the frankendoodle effect uh is that fun fact is that one of the participants during one of the sessions actually made a joke to philip that if he didn't answer their question, then the group would just stop talking to him. It's like setting a rule for him.

And all of a sudden that day, all of the activity was completely halted. They did not get any more signs of Philip again for the rest of the day. And the group had to like convince Philip to come back and talk to them. So it hinted that a spirit and its activity or the individual being that you personally manifest can stop just as fast as it was created. Like if it was if it was truly just a thought or just mental energy, it can be destroyed as quickly as it showed up. That's so interesting, because that also is so, so human. Like, I feel like that's so interesting because that also is so so human like i feel like that's also

double-edged of like the cold shoulder is like probably as old as time right like oh you're being stupid to me well i'm gonna be stupid right back to you you know like that idea so i feel like that's also very like either right a skeptic could be like oh well like humans know that so they of course would like respond that way then again also if that entity is like you know if you're pulling from energy of like of course that would also be there for that right that's so interesting so anyway in 1976 iris owen and sue they wrote uh conjuring up philip an adventure into psychokinesis oh my god it almost sounds like a children's book. Conjuring of Philip. Actually, TM, TM, TM, TM.

Except they already have the TM, TM. But we get the second one. Also, in 2012 and 2014, there were movies called The Apparition and The Quiet Ones. Not to be confused with The Quiet Place. Or A Quiet Place. But both of those movies were loosely interpreted. Loose interpretations of the Philip experiment. So if you watch those

and you see any similarities, that's why. And now, very quickly, because I know I've been talking for a full 45 fucking minutes, and I'm so sorry. Oh my gosh, no, I'm so sorry. I feel like I keep interrupting you to be like, I'm, I'm, I have questions. It's a good one

to banter on. It just it's i'm sorry it's so long i i i walked all of us into a long episode because i felt the need to do more research than needed so now fast track that was the 70s come all the way back up to 2007 the couple of months before the glenn tyvernin had paracon oh my god i'm so ready for this and a group of investigators decided that they were going to recreate for themselves just like the skippy experiment and all these other uh replications they were going to create the pearl experiment oh my god what this is like mind-blowing this is like so I feel like you've just created this paranormal web of information. And now you're just like dropping these like bombs.

Like to be continued. And here it is here. It's the Charlie Day with the red string picture. That's exactly what it is. So they decided that they were going to manifest a ghost at the glen tavern inn with the goal of researchers coming in soon for the upcoming paracon oh my god to investigate her see if they could find anything for themselves and not in a way of like tricking them into thinking there was a ghost but in a way of like let's see if we can actually manifest new energy and get proof of it from other people. Yeah. So the

other goal, by the way, was to discuss the findings of the experiment at a one of the later lectures of Paracon. So they were going to let people investigate Pearl all the time. And then there was going to be this lecture that they had already signed off for at the convention, where they were going to talk about the findings of the Pearl Experiment and go back in time and talk about the Philip Experiment and what we've learned in the last 40, 30 years or whatever. So there was a whole plan to it. Genius. And also doing it in a haunted house where there was already several ghosts

and all of these investigators were already coming in. So they used the hotel's haunted history to create a fake ghost. And they basically like I mean, they did the same thing that a lot of the Philippine. They did it with a smaller time span. They didn't do it for years and years and like meditate on this person for years trying to conjure somebody. But they did know that the place was already haunted by a lot of sex workers that were part of the brothel. haunted by a lot of sex workers uh that uh were part of the brothel so they already had kind of that history where they can make up a legitimate story and it could easily fall into you know the zeitgeist of the glen tavern and it's ghost so they decided that her name was going to be pearl

and the story goes that pearl who was actually named jane but they call her pearl because uh she was wearing pearls when she died oh she was french she had a broad nose she wore a green dress which had a pearl necklace she had a loud laugh which can allegedly be heard in room 107 so they're not only just making up her backstory but making up her haunts in the building so people can are kind of primed to know what to experience from this ghost oh it's so interesting huh people hear her laugh in room 107 along with the sound of her twirling her pearl necklace um she moved out here originally to get into the movie business but she ended up working in the brothel and she was later buried in an unmarked grave she was killed by a tall cowboy who was in the speakeasy he had a big hat and a dark mustache

his boots are still heard walking towards her room as they did before he killed her oh and he strangled her with her own necklace while she was turned around and counting her money from that night and you can still hear the beads break off of her and hit the floor oh my god that is so specific again pearl's fucking fake um again forgot and they also not only like came up with this story and the ways that she haunts people but they also put in descriptions uh they like had printed descriptions uh sent out to the press uh like about all like let's insert her into like the list of ghosts that people are also expecting to see at the glenn tavern in they were trying to put her in as much media and as many outlets as possible so it looked like she was always part of the list of ghosts for the last hundred years.

So they found fake pictures online that seemingly looked like how they thought she would. And they were intentionally incorporated into her backstory so she would come off as more legitimate. This is actually an email that was sent out to the original members of the Pearl Experiment before Paracon actually happened they this was like one of the secret emails that was sent out hey everyone here are the words that we are using to thought manifest jane slash pearl to keep the momentum going please recite these words at least once a day and visualize and meditate on pearl's life at the glen tavern inn also please note that i've made a forum called the ghosts of of Glen Tavern Inn. By the end of the week,

I should have all of the ghost stories I've culled in the forum. Pearl slash Jane is mentioned as one of the ghosts. You can check it out here. This hopefully will catch on and give us some place where we can track sightings, EVPs, et cetera, even after the convention.

Also, Pearl was just mentioned in this article by the VCc star article additional information was added including her red lipstick and red nail polish so her her story is like already growing in before their eyes wow also not to be that person or to be super blasphemous but when you talked about like i didn't i don't know why i didn't think about it the first time you mentioned like manifesting or like you know thinking about something so specifically but that also sounds like prayer a little bit doesn't it oh actually maybe yeah yeah just i think sitting with a group of people and really thinking very hard about one person and hoping they'll come back

you know i don't know maybe sorry everyone currently practicing that is very blasphemous but just a thought i feel like a lot of things we discuss on here are pretty blasphemous so the original again just like the philip experiment there were eight people part of this pearl experiment one of them being heather woodward who we have been talking about since last week um there was also a woman named Amy. There was a guy, Chad. There was Sid Schultz, loving that we have the same last name, except his is spelt wrong.

Actually, I don't know if Sid is a he. Wow, that was really fucked up of me. Then there was someone with an even cooler first and last name combo, Dave Davey. And then a woman named... I literally almost spit. Then Maria, Kristen, Dave Davey and then a woman named literally almost spit uh then Maria Kristen uh and Bill Murphy who is like part of the sci-fi network on the show fact or faked oh cool and so all of them came in they were doing all this manifesting they were they were the ones getting those emails about Pearl

and doing all they could to create her as an individual being in their mind so by july 2007 they have their very first session together where they're trying to make contact with pearl and they do it in the lobby of the hotel they concentrate on her they describe her over and over again visualizing her and heather starts doing automatic writing so they make contact with her, but Pearl's only speaking French, which is very interesting because none of them spoke French, and yet they had created a French woman. Okay, that is really interesting. And so Heather, who is automatic writing,

was only getting broken phrases of French. Now, I don't know enough about automatic writing. If Christine were here, she might be able to give me more information. But my thought was with automatic writing, even if you don't speak the language, you should be able to write in full French if it's not you doing the writing. If you're just like the vessel there. If they're just using you as a vessel to be able to write, then in theory, you should be able to write any language in my ignorant mind. No, I would think so, too. I've always been super spooked by automatic writing because of that reason, because of like, not specifically language, but that it's so outside of you,

like it's something that's just flowing through you, you know, so I would assume. So that's where I'm kind of on the fence about this, because none of them apparently spoke French. But Heather also was saying like, oh, well, I was trying my best to automatic write, but I don't speak French. So I was only writing down like sounds that I could pick up. And it's like, well, if you were automatic writing, I don't know enough about automatic writing, but it feels like it. She just said, I don't speak French. So I was only getting broken phrases. And I I heard the word vu a lot she even said like because i was thinking about like the lady

marmalade video oh my god so she was like i know they were saying the word vu a lot so i don't know i don't know enough about any of that to make a full statement but it sounded kind of weird yeah but heather did say that she got the phrase which i guess can be translated to i'm better at french than you good night okay i mean which is kind of ironic yeah given the whole conversation we just said um interestingly after uh they had these sessions with pearl eight months later after they began manifesting her someone actually unbeknownst to them not part of the paranormal world at all just staying at the Glen Tower Inn got a picture in the lobby where they had done these sessions they got a picture in the lobby

of a woman matching Pearl's description twirling her necklace and you can only see her in the mirror what oh my god that's weird and creepy and and yeah and uh lapd had a like a forensic photographer come in and confirm that the picture was not doctored oh my god so i will are also argue for the skeptics that like this was literally an inn full of ghosts that died while working in a brothel and if they were trying to make pearl fit the description of other sex workers at that time it doesn't shock me that they would find the ghost of a sex worker when there were actual ghosts of sex workers there and they're just calling this one pearls you know what i mean so i don't know but i guess this like, because she had a Pearl necklace,

it was like very on the nose. And, um, but Bill Murphy, again, from, uh, the,

the sci-fi channel, or as my dad will call it, the Siffy network. Um, Bill Murphy said, these thought forms tend to break away and they start to give signs that they're thinking and behaving independently of those that created them in the first place.

So again, very much the Frank and doodle by Frankendoodle concept. Anyway, so that all happened before the actual Paracon event. And so at the actual Paracon lecture, Bill Murphy was the one that was hosting it. And the lecture was called Explore the Theory of Thoughtform Manifestation. And during their findings, they were able to talk about the pearl experiment they were able to show off the picture that this very unassuming visitor was able to actually get which like only confirms that they were able to bring a creature to life or bring an entity to life yeah and during this lecture this is like kind of left field ish but uh on top of talking about the philip

experiment talking about their findings that weekend because of the pearl experiment and showing off the picture people in the audience were also able to try a new mind and matter experiment in the audience of this lecture oh shit so they got to use this is from like princeton's one of their big science labs it's a an electronic machine called a random event generator oh okay so i guess there's this concept in quantum physics yikes i'm not about to get into that but like in a very very layman's terms, there's a concept in quantum physics where like your, like thought can control random events or,

look, this is for another day, folks. But they got to use this random event generator and the machine shows how atomic particles react to mental power or react to thought. And on a very, very microscopic level. But in theory, the more people putting that mental power towards something, the more particles that will be able to react or behave accordingly. Oh, my God. Whoa.

So the studies have actually shown that the more people thinking together about something cause more particles to, quote, behave more orderly. So literal mind control, like on a very microscopic level, but physical mind control. Where in theory, this means that with enough group consciousness or enough group collective manifesting uh you can affect physical matter aka from a paranormal aspect we can in fact conjure entities or tulpas or spirits or paranormal phenomenon just by thinking about it really really hard and this is the result of something called quantum tunneling which is just for another fucking day oh my god ant-man hello oh my god speaking of what we i can't i can't i can't anyway that is a very literal hour-long part on my end i'm so sorry everyone to the end of the glenn tavern in plus the phil Philip experiment plus the Pearl project. Wow.

Bravo. I never want to think again because somehow quantum physics seeped its little way in there and I hated it. That is for sure the thing. Like, the same thing that I was kind of thinking, like, talking about with, like, that last podcast episode and, like, UFO things. That's, like, the thing that, like, I will, like, I, like, your brain, like, simultaneously shuts off about because it's too much and also thinks about, like, nonstop.

You know? It's like. Yes. It's like I'm obsessed. And for that, I cannot ever think about it again. Yeah. Yeah. It's like what I assume my love for Doctor Who is, where it's like, I know I could go too deep too fast.

And therefore, I'm just not going to touch it with a 10- foot pole. Like, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I understand. Anyway, I apologize to everyone for how long this was, but I hope you're having a great road trip somewhere or you're really deep cleaning your apartment now. No. Oh my God. I loved it. Thank you for telling me that. It was so good. I look, this is Eva's last episode with us. And so I really wanted to make you hang in there for as long as possible. We've made it to almost early, early dinner time. Yeah. Early fall sunset time. It's I feel I feel so silly.

I'm sorry about that. No. Oh, my gosh. No. And I feel bad because I hope everyone is still on a road trip. And also so sorry, because I also went on quite a deep dive for you. And also a lot of similarities. So my story is also French.

It's also from like old timiness times. Fun. Yeah. is also french it's also from like old timiness times fun yeah so i'll just kind of try to go through as quickly as i can i'm really sorry that might not too it's okay it's okay this is just people oh well when does this one come out like around yeah i think it's like the beginning of december maybe end of hang on let me i can double check i don't know maybe people are traveling back from trips that's true let's cross our fingers let's hope yeah everyone's like no we're all at work and we're so fucking over this and we're just trying to get through we're just trying to get by sorry everyone okay so i'll try to go as fast as i can no don't don't rush yourself. We're all,

we, this is again, this is the last time that we're hearing Eva tell a story. So everyone, this is a, your last chance folks to hear Eva's sweet sultry voice, you know? Oh,

I think that's honestly partly why too, because I, so basically I, from the beginning kind of had big plans for the first story topic. I even thought to do was Eileen Wuornos, who I don't know if you know who that is. She's like a really big female serial killer. Oh, wow. That's the story that Monster is based on with Charlize Theron that she like, you know, changed her entire appearance for. I basically got too intimidated because it was

such a big story. And then I watched like the first 20 minutes of monster and was like no thank you it's just like i was like i i feel a lot and i'm scared yeah i get it yeah it basically was just like really really brutal and i thought you know especially after the last story i told that was very like intense emotional you really said i'm coming onto and that's why i drink and i'm gonna give the folks a reason to fucking drink i did i'm so sorry it was a lot so this one i just got really deep into so basically what happened then i looked up like so many other like stories and was thinking through so many other things and then i really tapped into like a night 80s 90s kid like part of my brain that was like hey remember how much you loved like Ocean's Eleven and The Italian Job and like heist movies

and I was like heists are crimes too so certainly are we don't cover enough of them and also like I love that I think a lot of things about you but i don't think damn that woman loves a good heist oh so like i feel like i'm learning something about you totally i fucking love a heist movie like the italian job watched that for like entirely too long like so much just on repeat where do you think you would fall in a category of the of a a group of, of people on a heist? Like, would you be, where are, where are you on that chain? I already got the answer because I think I loved the Italian job so much because I wanted to be her. I was like, listen, I want to go to a driving course. Like, I want to do that. Like fancy little, like it like, that's why I have a tiny Fiat. Cause like,

I just love the little, like you, for your getaway pursuit drives. It's like, I love the little like. For your getaway pursuit drives? It's like I'm the getaway driver. You know what? Good to know. Next time we're late to a venue or something, I'm going to be like, this is your moment, Eva. Get the fuck in the car. Here we are. Here we are. I kind of am the getaway driver sometimes.

I feel like it's like Christine does the long haul driving and then I drive us from the shows back to the hotels. You certainly do. And then I drive us from the shows back to the hotels. You certainly do. And we have had some creepy run-ins with people who were a little too friendly with us. And we were like, Eva, just drive the car. Just remember that. That's true. The one I won't mention, but I think the one you're telepathically remembering with me,

where we needed someone to escort us to the car. I think you were the one that zoomed us on out of there. I think so. Yeah, I think I was like in the car. We're in the car. We'll talk about it in the car. We got to go. Yeah.

Yeah. Anyway. So basically for this, for you, today I have, I started Googling best diamond heists, best female, like biggest female thieves, that kind of thing. So this took me to, it's a little bit different, but I'm going to take you on a journey today of a scandalous high-class con slash theft that involves gossip, diamonds, fraud, forgery. Stop it. Lesbian icons. Eva. Gross. And also probably helped kickstart the French Revolution. The end. Whoa. That is a lot to take. So I'm taking away. There's just, there's just, I got a lot

on my mind, but nothing's coming out of my mouth. So let's just move on. Okay, perfect. So this is the story of Jean de Saint-Rémy. I also like the automatic writing, do not speak French, and I'm so sorry in advance. But we'll also try to automatic write this French for today for you. So this is the story of Jean de Saint-Rémy, aka the Comtesse de la Moët, aka the French, she called herself the Adventuress, which someone call me that from now on would love that term. Next time you get us out of a sticky situation, you are the Adventuress. That's for sure. Thank God. Who is also the mastermind of an infamous scandal known as the affair of the diamond necklace shut the fuck up can you imagine being

like the main character of an affair and that's the name of it yeah so fun no it's really wild and like as i like i mentioned the french revolution kept popping up and i was like oh my god like every textbook ever from like world history or whatever. But it mentions this. Like as I was looking it up, it would mention like also thought to like a factor in starting the French Revolution was the Affair of the Diamond Necklace. And I was like, wow, the thing I've been researching. What? That's so wild.

Like, I feel like that's every robber's dream to make history books. You know, that's so interesting you say that because I have a little bit about that later on with oh okay Jean a little bit too just because like as much as I like I read a lot of like different articles and like oh yeah I should like state my sources here too there was an article that I originally found her in the top femtech leaders the top 10 most famous female thieves in history. But I also got a lot of stuff from Wikipedia, Britannica, the British Museum, some things that were, like, a little, you know, just, like, for lack of a better word,

a little bit drier, but, like, they didn't quite always put her motives in. And, like, I mean, they kind of did, but I was like, I think there's more. So, like, I kind of speculated a little bit on, like, her, like, need for, like, things like that. Like you were saying, like, you know, wanting to be a part of history type thing. Also, side note, I also did a tiny bit of deep diving into Marie Antoinette because this involves Marie Antoinette. My God. I know. And like her life and death and potential queerness,

which is where the whole lesbian icon thing. Stop. This is literally becoming like an episode of Degrassi. There's so many twists and turns. The whole thing is just me. This is, okay. I'm glad you said that

because this is very twisty turny. The whole thing is very like gossipy it's very like salacious so just get ready take me out i'm so ready okay so starting like any good 90s thriller action movie a la oceans 11 the italian job i'm just gonna list everyone and i think that we should all in the way of those movies, just imagine the little, like, you know, 90s, like, computery scrawl coming across everyone's, like, little thing of, like, you know, this person, the mastermind, this person, the computer tech, that kind of thing. So that's just to set the scene here. Okay. So first we have our adventuress. Her scroll would read,

Jeanne de Saint-Rémy, a.k.a. Comtesse de la Mote, occupation, none, but definitely the mastermind of this whole affair, both of stealing diamonds and also of having affairs because she has a lot of affairs. I want to be her. Okay. I literally wrote that in the notes

and then took it out because I was like, I think I do. I also don't need to write it every single second I also like I I just want to know like you've already won hottest tea of the week award because yes right before Eva started her story we took a potty break and I also posted my uh my request for tea time Tuesday so people are currently as we're talking submitting uh drama and you really just came in hot so oh my God. The real time gossip wait. I love this so much. I'm going to be thinking about that the whole time. Okay. Perfect.

Okay. So next up we have, so this is kind of like picture also like Daniel Ocean and just like gathering his team together. Mark Wahlberg. I've done it. Gathering. You've done it. You've, you've done the heist. You've gotten the team. I've, gotten the team. It's in my head, yeah. Perfect. So next up, so we've got Jean. Then, we start seeing a high-topped hairdo, lots of curls. We have Marie Antoinette. Occupation?

Child bride. Slash. Probably not the right way to say that, but she was 14 when she was married off to Louis XVI. She was also Queen of France. Slash, slash in this story she is the unwitting mark oh okay okay so after that we have some like character actor type names balmer and bossinge who were actually two jewelers they were a jewelry firm that was well thought of. Surprisingly not Gringotts Bank Goblins, which they sound like. But they do have a bunch of valuables.

One in particular is their $2.2 million diamond necklace, which is the target. Gotcha. Not to be confused with the Sorcerer's Stone. Well, there's a lot of things that we would like to steal what isn't there. I know. Now I'm just like mixing up genres genres which is very telling of all of my interests okay so next we have the cardinal prince louis de rhone who um i literally just wrote occupation dummy slash bishop and also one of jean's lovers dummy might be kind of harsh we can like reassess that later we'll see we'll see how we feel about it he's very like back and forth he was the former ambassador

to austria when marie antoinette was she is uh was austrian before she became the french queen she was bartered into the marriage basically like for political reasons um so she knew him he was in france but she knew him from austria and she hated him small little tidbit of tea i see okay so planting the seeds yes planting the seeds um he is basically his kind of whole thing is that he's trying to get back into her good graces because she's obviously so high up now gotcha um then there's mark antoine nicholas de la moat occupation unhappy husband but willing participant in as you will see um he is also a little bit the getaway driver ish kind of like vibe he's the eva of the group i see he's a little bit yeah um so there are only a couple more now, but this is also the

part where like Mark Wahlberg or Daniel Ocean would be like, okay, everyone's in place, but if I don't get these two last people, nothing happens. Like these are crucial people here. So second to last, we have Ratu Devayette, who is a master forger, a member of the French kind of seedy underbelly, and another of Jean's lovers. Oh, okay. Yeah. And last but certainly not least is Nicole Delivia, who is a Parisian sex worker and undercover actor. An undercover actor? I kind of wrote like that's kind of what I call her because as you see that's like not a thing yet I have lived in Hollywood for how long I've never heard of an undercover actor and yet it's only it's all I want now

just to be one you'll see how that factors in shortly okay so to set the scene picture basically I'm throwing another like mixed genre in here but like Bridgerton. God, Eva. Okay.

I know, the elevator pitch of this. So it's 1784 in Paris. So like frills, high court, gossip, so much gossip. Kind of like that duty bound high class privilege type gossip, but against the backdrop of most of the rest of France just being like completely destitute and starving. Okay, got it. Yeah. It's kind of like a powder keg of a moment, a lot of sources said in terms of like, that this so like 1784 is only five years before the French Revolution starts and the storming of the Bastille. So like, a lot's going on, just like, okay, one where it's, it's a it's a politically tense space yes yes one

could very much call it that okay um so let me paint like a quick little still life before i go into some backstory so in 1784 our girl jean um was pining for a better life she was in an unhappy marriage and even though she had two lovers that we know of um she was like i need some more money titles something hashtag dream big type type vibes i was getting from her okay most of most sources were like she didn't have like it goes along with like the french situation at the time like everyone was very destitute so she i can get into this a little bit later but she had some money coming in but not enough for her like sort of lavish lifestyle and also like you were saying i think she had a little bit of like a like an attention seeking in like a you know who i'm not judging in like a way that i think is kind of her just wanting to like be friends with Marie Antoinette

and or like seek influence and she's she's shooting her shot at climbing the ladder yes exactly I think that's kind of exactly what's happening most importantly she's really interested in this moment in getting an audience with Marie Antoinette most sources say right that she wanted to ask Marie Antoinette for a bigger stipend which which I'll get into in a minute. But yeah, I think she wanted to live that like 1700s influencer lifestyle. Look, whatever the 1700s like Pinterest board would have looked like, she had it. Her account was followed by many, you know? Yes, yes, yes. She was like looking for followers I think so everything kind of snowballs from there so this is also where like I was like oh Marie Antoinette kept popping

up so I like really dug into I like started looking her up and then realized that's like a big I just kept looking more and more into her so this is like a little bit of my deep dive into her backstory do you know anything about Marie Antoinette? Nothing that I didn't learn from the Elizabeth or Kirsten Dunst movie. Yes. That's all the information I've known. Okay. Well, that's perfect because I ended up watching that instead of Monster.

Oh, okay. Backtracks. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Which that movie is actually really interesting and a lot of sources were saying like you know much more of like a sympathetic feminist-ish like kind of lens to look at her because history has painted her as kind of like basically the French people kind of

turned on her in a way that she was like it's just really double-edged like she gotcha was married she was playing this role, this very specific, like, you know, Royal court role. Whereas the French people really like started seeing her as like the epitome of like the symbol of, of like what was wrong in the country.

And it like, wasn't necessarily her fault. Like there were a lot of things that needed changing. And also she was kind of just that needed changing and also she was kind of just playing her role and also like really young like there was like a whole there's like a lot like she was a literal 14 year old and like can you imagine the pressure like yeah exactly so my little bit of backstory here with marie antoinette is that she was the queen of france from 1774 to 1792 and was notoriously the last queen before the

French Revolution. So some like really wild TLDRing about the French Revolution. Right, right. Yeah, like quite, quite a layman's summary. Yeah, yeah. Like, please don't quote me in any history book. No one could. No one could. It would be so clouded by actual solid information. Yeah, yes, yes. Is that basically like ended monarchies in France and kind of helped kickstart democracy in France and other places like hello, Hamilton fans, the American Revolution was also happening around the same time. Okay. At this point, France in particular, like I said, was experiencing a huge class discrepancy. France in particular, like I said, was experiencing a huge class discrepancy. Like I mentioned, the royal court was just kind of like royal courting.

And the meanwhile, people were like some sources said, quote, rioting in the streets for bread is how. Jesus Christ. Yeah. Like dire things were. It was kind of a combo of like a lot of things but like it seemed like a lot of the bigger things were like bad weather leading to bad crop harvests really bad taxes um extensive wars and the state actually also paid for all of the royals so oh yeah it was like kind of a weird like big bit of things amongst a lot of other things again tldr i'm so sorry so this is also like i had a little bit of a side here because i was thinking about like the movie if you remember like has those scenes of

like i just kept thinking about how like trapped she was within this like really lavish lifestyle like i feel like we saw a lot of that with, like, Meghan and Harry recently. And then in the movie, you see there are a couple scenes of, like, Marie Antoinette waking up every morning and not being able to get dressed. She's, like, freezing and she's not even able to get dressed until the right, like, quote, princess is there to, like, help her get dressed because that's a privilege. Like, she couldn't even reach for anything. People had to hand it to her because that also was a privilege. reach for anything people had to hand it to her because that also was a privilege so right just like the trappedness of like the things that are like duty honor bound all of those things um also that's a little bit of my queer foreshadowing not in the movie but in my notes of the princesses just in my own heart yeah just in my own like here we'll like just lay a little

groundworks for that just remember the princesses for later okay got it so i had a little bit here just of like the movie paints a much more sympathetic picture of marie antoinette than has like generally been the case because when i started researching this i was like oh she's terrible then i was like oh she's like a woman in history it's like go figure like she probably isn't 100% to blame. Right. Yeah, exactly. And it's like, you know, super nuanced and like all of the things that just, you know, almost anything is. So it's obviously not super redeeming that like, you know, we've all been in places and able to bring ourselves to a more conscious place of other people's plights. But again, she was so trapped and so isolated. It's hard to be like, yeah, she deserved to die for that. By guillotine, by the way. but again she was so trapped and so isolated it's hard to be like yeah

she deserved to die for that by guillotine by the way like she was like yeah yikes yeah so basically she was super villainized throughout the ages and especially at the time she was yeah again seen as the symbol of people's oppression one of the big examples that i thought was like super interesting that i feel like i kind of heard of and they mentioned in the Marie Antoinette movie is that the phrase let them eat cake which is like yeah really notoriously attributed to Marie Antoinette but it's apparently pretty like well debunked that she never said that oh really yeah so like the story of it was supposed to be that like the French people were super pissed at her for living this like really opulent lifestyle and like she did like she gambled a lot she drank a lot she had a lot of like parties with her like really close friends but apparently at the same time like so I

guess the story goes that the kind of the lower class folk were saying like hey we don't have enough to eat and she just kind of in a hand-waving way was like, well, let them eat cake. Like apparently it was meaning like brioche, which at the time and in general is like way more of a luxury than just plain bread because it has like eggs and milk. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah, but most historians say she never said that. And actually in the movie, someone like reads her kind of like a pamphlet of like marie antoinette

said this and kirsten dunst character is she as kirsten or kirsten dunst as her is like i would never say that so weird okay interesting yeah so basically to set the scene like rumors were swirling about her constantly about yeah her like lavish lifestyle her partying her orgies they said her affairs and here we've made it to people saying that she was a lesbian aka that she also had female affairs okay so historians definitely have some things to say about that they think that they can prove at least one affair with a man but most refute the idea that any of her children she did end up having children eventually that any of her children were illegitimate and by the way is she still 14 during all this she becomes queen at like 1920 so she's like a little bit older i was like damn like they are really

like throwing this poor little minor child through the like that she is responsible for affairs at 14 i was about to get real heated okay well kind of though because so when she first got married she was 14 and the first immediate thing is like hey you have to start having sex and all of the conjugal quote conjugal visits between the king and the queen were recorded like people would come in and look at their sheets. Oh, ew. I know. Wild invasion of privacy. Oh, my God. Yeah. When she was 14. I know.

Oh, my God. Okay. But if it helps, I don't know if it does or not. So she was under this massive amount of pressure. Louis XVI, her husband was like really notoriously. It's kind of unclear because history kind of paints it a lot of different ways, but it sounds like he was either really like maybe a combination of really shy and or like maybe had other, like identified other ways. Maybe it's sort of unclear, but basically

for their first seven to eight years of marriage, they didn't have a ton of sex. She didn't start having children until like eight years into their marriage okay weird because like wasn't he like known as like was this the same guy he like he was death he was killing people because they couldn't provide him a son no i think that's someone else because this guy was like really he was really reclusive louis the 16th that sounded like so i was like it's weird that he would like hold off on trying for so long okay no no i don't think so i mean i didn't look into him a ton but he in i mean in the movie and in my like research that i did it sounds like he was just like very removed very into like the very specific things that he was like he was really into locks

and so he would just like why yeah just like was like i my hobby is locks and would just like mess around with locks all day long like key locks yeah he liked locks was he was hmm was he neurodivergent because it sounds like a really, it sounds, I would really like locks. That sounds like something I would be so into, but I don't know why. And I, hmm, that's interesting. Honestly, like in the movie, he's played by Jason Schwarzman and he's played in like, it's hard. It's like such a fine line. Like it, it does play a little bit neurodivergent. It also plays a little bit, just like super shy, play a little bit neurodivergent. It also plays a little bit just like super shy, like not around, like not have not been around any romantic partner at all. It plays a little bit like maybe he's,

maybe he identifies a different way. Like maybe he has like some aspects of queerness to himself as well. Maybe it's super unclear. I mean, it could be a lot of things, but the fact that locks are being so highlighted right now, I'm'm like is that like a hyper fixation situation because yeah i could 100 i mean again like i am aware i'm one of those people who just got diagnosed within the year and now i just attribute everything to like some sort of neurodivergency but like it's just like i could really find a way to get into fucking i mean and i could really find a way to ignore all other tasks to learn like like xandy christine's brother obsessed with lighthouses oh my god we had we had one conversation about it one time and i have really gotten into lighthouses lately like so like now you've said locks and now i'm about to like completely forget everything else i'm supposed to do today just to go look up like what what was so interesting about them then I'm like okay keep going sorry

well no it makes sense too because it's like well there's so much involved in locks I don't know how to fucking make a lock like if it was interesting then imagine how interesting it is now I yeah anyway I'm sorry that was that completely took away from like any point you were trying to make sorry listen no it did not because it brought us back to the italian job which the other job that i would have liked which was hyper fixation my hyper fixation which is charlie's the rose character who is not only the getaway driver but she's the lock pick which is just the most fuck up really wow that was a perfect circle okay uh we brought it all back around it always comes back to charlie's the room i mean kind of in monster too i like didn't even realize but

when i like started anyway okay here we go we're just moving on from locks okay please god um so yeah she did eventually start having children but it kind of that also like was one of the places where it started building like the idea that she was you know was more interested in women like couldn't seduce her husband like all of these other things that obviously are not great so marie antoinette the more i looked up i like got one whiff of it and then was like marie antoinette queer question mark google you know just like what's here and then she came up she kept like articles kept coming up about how she like naming her as a queer icon and I was like do tell tell me about this so apparently the basis for this is the rumors but also that some historians think that there

could be some truth in it um her husband being distant the public hating her she really did like whether she was queer or not she really retreated from public life and relied more and more on her ladies-in-waiting aka her princesses yeah who helped her the ones who like you know would do all of those like daily tasks for her also i'm sorry but like the princesses that were like helping her get dressed are you like is there is there a queer beginning to a fantasy i don't know there's not i don't believe so sounds pretty gay from the get-go my friend so okay yes so one of the princesses was princess de lamballe who marie antoinette liked so much that she elevated her to the highest position she could,

which was the superintendent of the household. Oh, damn. She gave her, circling back to stipends, she gave her a really big stipend to live off of. And during, they only had a few times where they were actually apart. During one of the separations, they would exchange, like, love letters, basically, of, like, you know, how much they missed each other. Really notably, so, like, one of those separations, Marie Antoinette also had her, the princess's portrait drawn on the mirror that she used most so that she could see it as often as she was there.

So gay. Okay. Sorry. I, like, in a lovely way, like, I just, I just like spreading little love letters on the mirror to each other. So sweet. It's very sweet. And then it turns a little bit sad because Marie Antoinette was killed. So.

Right. Right. Spoiler alert. This is one of the more like gruesome parts of this before I get back into the diamond heist. But it felt very true crimey. So I felt like I had to mention it so this princess um Lambal they the second separation was when Marie Antoinette before she was arrested but when she was sort of like fleeing ish like she basically couldn't travel to see the princess and so one of the things that they exchanged during that time was a lock of... A kiss?

Was it a kiss? No, it was a lock of Marie Antoinette's hair that's really, like, it's really, or really was really blonde. And so it was said that, or in the letter, it said that it was bleached by sorrow that they couldn't see each other. Oh. Yeah. So they basically exchanged a kiss. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So, and this was right before she died well and it's interesting you say kiss because here we go just real quick this is a little bit this is very brutal um so when marie antoinette was arrested one of the last well this is sweet one of the last things that was taken from her was a portrait of this princess that she had on her and the princess was also arrested for her association with marie antoinette and the princess was killed by a mob and her head was put on a spike and like paraded around the city oh my god i know and eventually it was taken to marie antoinette's the window of her cell and people were chanting like give her one last kiss because she was like it was like i know it's so sad i'm so sorry it's so so sad um oh no i know oh that's awful it's really really bad um but yeah

moving on from that quickly and with haste as as you said, this is also really sad. But Brie Antoinette herself was tried and executed by guillotine in October of 1793. She was found guilty of high treason. 1973? I'm so sorry. 1793. Okay. Yes. So sorry. I was like, oh my God, the same time as the Philip experiment. Crazy.

Okay. Yeah. I was kind of like, wait, what are the numbers? Because I think i'm like number dyslexic like there are so many times that i just like flip numbers so that's probably what i did um okay so she was found guilty of treason depletion of the national treasury and conspiracy against the state but even after her death so this is kind of an upswing here she became sort of a code word for queer people at the time where i know so like kicking off this like long-standing tradition of marie antoinette as a gay icon which is where like a lot of people were saying like a lot of the so like even as recent as i mean as recent i guess this was a while ago now but madonna dressed as marie antoinette

in her vogue video so it's kind of come through the ages, but at the time, yeah, it was said that, you know, obviously it wasn't super safe for women to be like, hi, are you queer as well? So one of the ways they would do that is that they would start wearing their hair in like a higher up fashion as Marie Antoinette as like a little code, or they would say things like, um, have you heard the rumors about Marie Antoinette as kind of like a little code or they would say things like um have you heard the rumors about marie antoinette as kind of like a little code to be like hi are you queer too oh my gosh

that's so that's kind of like the original like the earring in one ear or like today's today's this with the rest just little codes yeah little symbols it sounds like also because uh it's i think it's kind of outdated now but originally a way that you would ask people if they were gay, especially if it was a gay man, you would ask if they were a friend of Dorothy's. Oh, yeah. From Wizard of Oz. So maybe Are You a Friend of Dorothy's was the new and improved version of Have You Heard About Maria? it makes no it makes so much sense that like you know throughout the ages in unsafe times and places that you know queer people have had to resort to different ways to find each other which is obviously all these years later people still have to do it isn't that nice oh god it's

like oh well my friends it is really terrible on i think you'll like this quote to to bring us out of the doldrums here kayla goggins a writer from one of the articles that i read that was sort of like you know going through the queer history of marie antoinette this quote i really liked of hers was whether she was or wasn't gay is almost beside the point marie antoinette may have helped facilitate over 200 years of lesbian hookups making her probably one of the first modern lesbian icons. Okay. That reason and that reason alone, I'm a big fan. Yeah. Right. Big fan. Yeah. Yeah. That I love. Okay. Yes. So yeah, that puts like such a twist on Riantonette. You can see why I like rabbit, like just deep dived into this. Yeah. But so sorry i haven't even started the diamond heist yet so oh my god okay let's go there is still a diamond heist so basically all of this is to set

the scene that so we're going back to 1784 all the gossip swirling around marie antoinette also giving that kind of the context of like oh god this eventually leads to the way the french people see her um and then the french revolution so all of a sudden marie antoinette in 1784 starts hearing a new rumor about herself that she is refusing to pay balmer and bossinge our our gringotts goblins uh-huh specifically for a very specific diamond necklace okay so i'm gonna send you a picture of this diamond necklace real quick and see what you think of it because listen god bless but it's not my taste oh god okay i'll let you know when it gets there you'll know when i either agree with you or i'm obsessed so it'll be one of the two okay I just sent it to you

it should show up it's so pretty I mean it's a lot like that's that caused history right? yeah but also again like just like how imagine wanting to be like a robber that makes

history books imagine wanting to be like the designer that makes history books like this was not this was not it though like I mean it made history books but like I don't it certainly didn't deserve it compared to what I think other some other jewelry out there does that's it looks like curtain drapes oh my god it kind of does yeah okay well I love that you said that because that segues so perfectly into the backstory of this necklace which is that so the jewelers basically bankrupted themselves making it and trying to sell it because it was so it was so expensive that once they made it they were like oh fuck like only a high certain few people can actually buy this. But we need to also sell it very quickly to get our money back from it.

Sure. So they had initially tried to sell it to Louis XVI's father for his scandalous mistress, Madame du Barry, who was in the Marie Antoinette movie. She's like the salacious. Everyone is like gossiping about her. And then she like like skitters off as the king gets sick and then she like leaves because he's sick and is like about to die okay that was like the original intention was like oh we'll make it the king will buy it for his mistress but he doesn't do it so okay he for whatever reason also maybe thought no thanks um and then he died so they were like uh-oh what do we do now

right so they tried again with louis the 16th and marie antoinette and she was like also no thanks and actually some sources say that she said something along the lines of like we need more ships instead of diamond necklaces oh which i i stand by that yeah right it's hard to know exactly where that fell but i was kind of like it doesn't that like turn the tides a little bit in your favor that she's like you know pushing aside opulence for like maybe something more political but like yeah didn't really whatever i think didn't make too much of a dent in that. So basically at this point, the jewelers are like, shit, like we, no one who can afford this necklace wants it. That should tell you something, friends.

Maybe step out of the jewelry game. Yeah, right? Yeah. It's not going well. Not for you, yeah. So how did this rumor start that she not only wanted the necklace, but had actually acquired it and was somehow stiffing the jeweler? Oh, okay.

Yeah. So this is where we meet back up with our adventuress, Comtesse de la Motte. Uh-huh. So let me real quick rewind and tell you a little bit about her because she's really interesting as well. bit about her because she's really interesting as well jean de valais saint remy was born in northeastern france in 1756 and grew up super poor her father was always drunk and made ends meet by what wikipedia called quote expedience which when i looked it up said it meant convenient and most likely immoral activities so oh i have no idea how he did that. Yeah.

I like the definition though. Yeah. Yeah. It was very like, like alluring in a way to be like, that only gives me more questions. Right. All of a sudden I,

wait a minute. Don't go anywhere. Yeah. Yeah. So her mother was a court servant and Jean was one of six, although three of her siblings died in infancy and sadly she and her uh remaining two siblings so the three of them were neglected and often had often had to beg for food to stay alive oh shit yeah it's disputed exactly who saved the

kids but one of two families and or a priest stepped in and saved Jean and her brother and sister. Okay. And in a fun plot twist, one of these families had the kids' genealogy looked into at Versailles, and it turns out that they were from a dormant royal line. No way. Yeah, like maybe though. Oh, you really sold it like they had stumbled upon like a greek god or something okay well i think they they kind of had like in some ways because they pretty immediately there was like a program set up in place at the time where like if you were from a family like that that you there was

like a an assistance program where you got again a stipend for that okay got it but it's also really questioned like because of the way that she later acted people were like well was she really like it was very kind of gotcha okay got it back and forth even on top of the fact that her lineage back to this royal family was through quote like illegitimate like through illegitimate children okay um so she was descendant from king henry ii through the valet royal line a family that had ruled in france from the 1200s to the 1300s but had basically run out of heirs and it was through illegitimate children that she had like descended so there was still like a lot of again gossip kind of swirling around that too that like it did seem like she was related but people were like you

know had little tidbits right okay to gossip about i would yeah yeah yeah i mean i i like to think i'm above that but i feel like if I had that kind of information I would tell somebody yeah honestly a lot of this felt like how culpable would I have been in a lot of these like gossipy situations you know because it's just something like that I feel like I'd be like oof that's that's I at least have to I need one tell I need at least one good tell that's it yeah I mean it's just so because I like even moving on from that, so, like, Jean went to boarding school. She and her sister were supposed to become nuns, but, like, that was very much not in her character. So while her sister was becoming a nun, Jean, by 1780, had already married Marc Antoine Nicolas de la Motte. While she was heavily pregnant, which obviously was like a no, no at the time.

Yeah. Yeah. She like gave birth only a month after the wedding. And sadly her twin, she had twins. They died within a few days, which is really sad. But that's again to kind of show that like she'd lived kind of a fast and scandalous life at the time outside of, you know, but like was doing it her own way i don't know she was making it special making it yeah yeah so it's at this point that she really starts to capitalize on anything royal so at this point

jean and mark antoine decide to start calling themselves the compte and Comtesse de la Motte Valais, which is her, like, illegitimate lineage. Okay. And most sources I read were like, why? We don't know. We don't know why she started calling herself, or why they started calling themselves that. Just picked it out of a hat. Or, like, at least from their lineage,

they just wanted to rescind their current name. Yeah, exactly. It's like like okay for the reach for the stars you know sure manifest yourself a new identity do what you need to do that's okay yeah so they start calling themselves that and uh she starts to kind of target kind of like try to insert herself into the front louis the 16th royal court including wants to be around and close to marie antoinette close like oh you know no ish but there is a bit at the end that i'll remind me when we get to her Okay. I promise. Thank you. So here's some more tea. Turns out that she was really bad at living within her means and her husband, you know, he had a job. He was a gendarme, which is a French

police officer, a military person. But she was always kind of reaching for more. And so she, again, kind of like I mentioned before, was really interested in kind of bumping into and maybe casually becoming friends with Marie Antoinette and maybe possibly asking her for like a like a bigger stipend because like, oh, hi, I'm royal and I'm a comtesse. And like, did you know that? And yeah, just doing a little elbow bump, a little bump in the bows. Yeah. Climbing whatever ladder is needed. Yeah, just doing a little elbow bump, a little bumping the bows. Yeah. Climbing whatever ladder is needed. Yeah. Exactly.

And it is really interesting because it's not super, like, looking at kind of the context of it, it's not, like, super out of reach because, A, Marie Antoinette was already giving stipends to people that she really liked, whether or not she was actually romantically involved with them. She had. Right, including, like, the, well, I well i guess not including i was gonna say potentially romantic i mean she was even giving it to her like princess the person like let her like all of a sudden climb the ranks to like a housemaiden or whatever it was so yeah exactly and like there were other people too that i i didn't mention but there were two other um there was another there was someone she made a duchess basically and like gave her this like 13 room apartment in Versailles and then um there was someone else a friend an English actress um who talked a lot about yeah like her so she is helping people that that are in her circle exactly yes yeah so I think Jean was like can I be in that circle and then B it also turns out that at the

time if you wore fancy enough clothes you could go into Versailles and uh what I think it was Wikipedia described as quote um just viewing the royal family so you could go in and I've heard of that where like they would literally be having like dinner and you would just like walk just stand outside of the room and just watch them eat dinner or something. Yeah, which is a weird concept to be like, oh, if you like they cared so much about like order and like lineage and all of that. And then they were like, but if you dress fancy enough, we'll let you in and you can just come watch. Yeah, it was like I imagine that's like the tourist trap of a century, though. I mean, yes.

Can you imagine that in today's world in hollywood like oh watch the avengers have dinner together are you fucking kidding me i would be the first person in line so i could understand how that was alluring and like a good way also some people could see it as like a network potential that's yeah that's definitely true because i think that was very much what gene was trying to do was to like get in that, you know, just that network potential. Exactly. Yeah. So Jean put on her Sunday best and she went to court a ton and tried to kind of bump into Marie Antoinette.

She really hoped that the queen would notice her and the queen did, but not in the way that she wanted. Oh, God. She embarrassed herself herself didn't she kind of well it's kind of like the thing of like it seems like marie antoinette probably she had some preconceived notions about her like i think she probably asked around about like saw her asked around about her and then she heard probably a lot of the backstory of like children out of wedlock like you know all had an unhappy marriage had some lovers trouble trouble trouble yes so i think the queen was like no thank you gotcha so yeah it's kind of like at this point oh um right there was also that she was in an unhappy marriage she had taken uh one lover rato deau de Villette, who I mentioned, who is the sort of local, they called him a gigolo.

I hope that is still an appropriate term. If it's not, I definitely want to be sensitive to that. He also was a fellow gendarme to her husband. and she had taken another, another, she had become mistress to another person who I mentioned before, the Cardinal Prince Louis de Rohan, who was again, the person that Marie Antoinette knew from her childhood and didn't like.

So I think she was also kind of. Oh, okay. Yeah. She did not make herself look good. She was not looking shiny and bright and new. No, and like not through any, like it's hard to know. Like she probably wouldn't have known that.

She probably was just kind of reaching and was like, oh, this cardinal. Let me like, but then picked the wrong person. Like it was just someone that Marie Antoinette was like, no, no, not him. Okay, got it. Yeah. So just bad luck of the draw. Yeah, exactly. okay got it yeah so just bad luck of the draw yeah exactly so marie antoinette refused to meet with jean and it didn't really like it was i initially wrote this part as like and then it

forced her and i was like i mean she could have just done nothing like it didn't force her to do anything but it really was like the turning point of like here's here's where the diamond heist really starts coming into play uh-huh okay yeah so um here is the scam let's go we're here so jean knew about the necklace and the fact that the queen didn't want it and maybe wouldn't be paying too close of attention to it is what i was thinking sure yeah like oh well no one's looking at it anyway. So if I snag it, they just go missing or something. Yeah. It's kind of like, oh, no one famous or fancy wants this necklace. Like might as well try to capitalize. I'll take care of it. Yeah, exactly. So with the help somewhat unwittingly of her husband and both of her lovers,

Sheen concocts a plan. Wow. Okay okay i love that they're all a team kind of you'll see how it's like kind of interconnected and like okay some of them are a team and some of them like the cardinal or not gotcha okay so first jean suggests to the cardinal that marie antoinette did indeed want the necklace making it seem like they were closer her and marie antoinette did indeed want the necklace making it seem like they were closer her and marie antoinette and that she knew this and had confided this in her oh okay yeah and the cardinal was like go on i'd like to know like he's trying to get into marie antoinette's favor so then jean has this other lover who is a forger. A forger.

Yeah. Okay. She starts having the forger, Ratouille de Viet, starts forging letters to the cardinal from Marie Antoinette to the cardinal, talking about how much she wanted the necklace, even though her husband wouldn't buy it for her. Oh, okay. Yeah. So they kind of write back and forth, Marie Antoinette being like, hi, I would like this necklace. Hello, Cardinal.

Like, do you want to be back in my good graces? And the Cardinal's like, I do. Yes, please. 1,000% I do. Yes. Okay. Yeah. So to the point, I guess to the point in the letters where the letters actually

suggest quote marie antoinette suggests that they should meet up somewhere to talk about the necklace okay yeah right and a formal quote formal reconciliation at court is what the cardinal was wanting from that okay so enter nicole delivia from the beginning our undercover actress there we are yeah i was wondering we are here okay i actually totally forgot about her she was so undercover but i now i'm back to being very confused about her purpose so so she basically she hired her basically paid her to impersonate the queen in versailles like in the gardens of versailles apparently so well that no one noticed i guess it was also that it was night too like it definitely said that it was like specifically nighttime so i wonder if they like you know we're like oh i can't come closer you know, we're like, oh, I can't come closer. You know, maybe it was like a situation. I'm just off to the bathroom. Yeah, exactly. Talk to me through this hole in the flowers.

That's not a French accent. I'm so sorry. It's actually so not French at all from either of us. What were we doing there? Oh, God. But yeah, so I'm thinking some kind of like subterfuge was used there. And also like to give Nicole Delivia some props, I feel like maybe like at this point, Marie Antoinette was so like caricaturized too. Like she was painted, drawn everywhere, like in pamphlets and like cartoons and things. So I wonder if she too just like took it, learned from it and was like, that could, yeah, I can do that. Yeah, fair enough. It can't be that hard right she's everywhere right now she's so big so yeah so they actually talk in the in the um the garden they talk about the necklace and their reconciliation and the cardinal is like all right we're doing this all right so riding high from this encounter the cardinal is like all right we're doing this all right so riding high from this encounter

the cardinal was like wow i'm about to have it made in the shade yeah so he basically puts the necklace on his credit card what now yeah that's why i called him the dummy because i was like he he's the one that i mean i feel bad cause he does get played pretty hard, but he also just like falls for it. He just so blindly just like put it like, there's going to be receipts on that. Right. Like there's going to be like,

okay, that's where we're heading. Okay. Yes. Yes. So he, for sure he, so he goes to the jeweler and he signs a contract with the jewelers,

pledging his credit to pay for the necklace and installments thinking that he's going to get the money from marie antoinette okay i got he can just pass it along that he's like this intermediary doing this favor for her but she's like the monetary you know gotcha hacker of the whole situation um so of course, who better to deliver the necklace to Marie Antoinette than our friend Jean? Okay. How does this go, Eva? Tell me.

So yeah, we're at the point where things are about to fall apart because... Okay. Wow. If someone make that a sound clip for everyday everyday life we're at the point where we're about to fall apart yep we're just things are about to go uh go wrong i'm there right now all right yeah i know what i know what that feeling is like okay here we are um so yeah so basically we're at this point that like the cardinal, he hands the necklace over to Jean, thinks he's going to be living the high life with Marie Antoinette.

Instead, Jean gives the necklace to her husband who immediately starts selling it off in pieces. So like takes it apart, diamond by diamond, sells it in Paris. And he actually immediately just like skedaddles to London. So he's gone for like the whole of the French revolution. Goodbye. Okay. Bye bye. skedaddles to London so he's gone for like the whole of the French Revolution goodbye okay bye

like I think he's already kind of looking for a way out of like I don't think the marriage like I don't think either of them were like we want this to continue I think they were like let's do this then maybe never see each other again it's like this is our this is our one last ride or die moment together I think yeah that's what it like kind of read like to me. I have no clue, but like, that's what it felt like. Um, so those two are like, wow, we're rich now. Look what we've done. Meanwhile, the Cardinal is like waiting for Marie Antoinette to talk to him in court and get his money to make these first payments. So like stressful situation for him. And meanwhile, the jewelers are also waiting for this first installment of the payment like hi we gave you this necklace and you i think they put down some kind of like deposit but they were like okay first installment time to pay up and the cardinal's like

waiting waiting as you can guess those things do not happen so he does he just get like fucked over for this then because he was never able to pay it back kind of he's like kind of like the the first smoking gun character out of all of them of like oh well that guy's in trouble well the ending is kind of interesting because this is the point where like literally like so basically the points now are like it basically just what happens to people at the end is like really interesting because he is definitely like the fall guy but he doesn't fully like his fall is not too hard like he doesn't fall too hard which is kind of interesting so basically the jewelers are coming to the cardinal and the cardinal is like listen

on the down low i bought this for marie antoinette and like she's good for it look how rich she is like just don't make a big deal about it but like we got to go to her for money so the jewelers go to her and that's where it really starts unraveling because marie antoinette is like listen not only do i not want this fucking necklace but i hate all of these people involved can you literally imagine getting just trapped in this weird little scandal where it's like i don't want that weird shitty product and also like i who told you i even speak to these people right it was kind of like i felt bad for her because i was she had i feel like she was like even if i did want this like wild necklace like i wouldn't go to these fools for it like it feels like a lot of

this could have been explained away with logic and everyone just kind of actively didn't pay attention to it you know that's so interesting because i feel like a lot of what was happening at this moment was very not super logical like the french people obviously want to change and they also were using ran to a net as like not a super logical like placeholder for that. And there was just so much gossip. And like a lot of this seems like just such a like a moment in time with all of that, says me, the French historian. Hey, between the two of us, that is absolutely who you are. Oh, God. So obviously the jewelers are like this sucks, but like they go talk to Marie Antoinette and that's when it like really starts coming apart.

And then a lot of sources say that it's somewhat odd that the king and queen make it public. So like they could have just done it all under, you know. Right. Like why is this becoming like a scandal that everyone knows about? Like why exactly like in their version of like a People magazine or something like I feel like it it. like in their version of like a people magazine or something. Like, I feel like it, it. Yeah.

I mean, you already said, but like, why is this getting blown up when it could have been such a private matter? I guess because it was like, I imagine it would be really sensationalized if I found out that like a famous person I follow all of a sudden had like this like little group of misfits that allegedly they were friends with.

And then also like there was some scandal about stealing joy. I mean, I would, I, in terms of like my interest and like tabloids for like the 1700s or 1600s or whenever it was. And she is a woman of like very polarizing opinions or people don't maybe even all one negative opinion towards her.

Like, and now there's this massive scandal. I would totally fall for for it i think i wouldn't even think about the logic i'd be like well that tracks and also there was no such thing as like internet or even like the concept of like checking evidence like checking yeah no 100 it was like his word against her word against you know the jeweler's word like it just was like, and it just like, I had this later too, that it's just like, you're so exactly right that this story, like the king and the queen basically were like, we need to uphold our reputations. We need to come out and like tell everyone, blah, blah, blah.

But everyone already kind of hated them so much and had such a specific idea of how like lavish and like opulent their lifestyle was. There was no way that they were not gonna believe it that they were like oh right you didn't like create this weird little subterfuge moment to like get a diamond necklace and like ruin our country like why would yeah it feels it feels like it's if i were mad enough at a person and something that ridiculous came out i could almost believe it especially if it was someone with that much power and that much like notoriety like you could probably tell me anything about anyone and like I would want to check it before in today's world at least I would want to fact check it before I like ran with it

but I would be shocked nonetheless I'd be like wow if that's true this is pretty crazy right and it's like it's interesting because I feel like we like I don't know a ton of the lead up but it does feel like we now have been through so much more in terms of like fact checking and reality versus like, you know. And reality, yes. Yeah, you know, all of that, that like, you know, we might be more inclined to think through those things. Whereas like, I think in that moment, it was very like, yeah, like you're saying, there's no other sources. There's no, there's nothing else except what people are hearing and and people are also like meanwhile while they're hearing this they're starving like they're dying they're like not in a place yeah they're angry

yeah yeah so again like super powder cake moment so basically the king and queen make it super public they have basically everyone arrested like involved in it um mostly gene and the cardinal are publicly arrested and brought to trial yeah it's thought that they did this to salvage their reputation but it really did the opposite that the public hearing all of the details were like no we still think you're at fault king and queen right um so the cardinal was actually tried and found not guilty um so the king actually had him exiled but had him exiled to his own property so he was just like so he on house arrest yeah kind of like house arrest exactly but probably on like a big enough piece of land that he was like yeah okay i'm fine okay um because he actually lived out the rest of his life in exile there at his property.

Oh, wow. Um, yeah. In the South of France, um, Jean's lover, the forger was also arrested, found guilty of forgery, which like, I guess that makes sense. Cause that's probably one of the bigger crimes. Literally known as the forger. I imagine it would be in trouble for forgery at some point. Yeah, exactly. Um um so he was exiled as well not imprisoned thankfully i actually thought that our uh our impersonator slash undercover actor nicole delivia was going to get the roughest treatment because she was a sex worker and she was the one who actually impersonated the queen but she was also acquitted she was let go um even for impersonating the queen.

But as for Jean, she was found guilty and sentenced to life in prison in addition to being whipped and branded. Holy shit. Yikes. Wow. But the public really sympathized with her and still blamed Marie Antoinette, obviously because of just everything. And so Jean was actually in prison. But by by 1989 which was when the french revolution started so by that time jean had already escaped prison quote dressed as a boy oh made her way to london and published her memoirs the memoirs were what what were they what i just was gonna try to say it basically is like

the title of it is like the memoir justificance de la comtesse de la valet de la mode it's basically her be i think it's like the memory like my memoirs of like my justifications for my actions like describing everything okay but like it's giving girl boss energy like i'm kind of here for it yeah you know what you do what you needed to do girl that's okay yeah yeah she definitely goes down the trail of like uh slandering marie antoinette she talks about she's kind of like oh what was me like marie antoinette did all of this kind of capitalizing on the public opinion of her but she also did mention that uh she and marie antoinette had a bit of a like a love interest that was only mentioned in like one tiny little bit of a detail so there's not much there but just enough just enough to yeah to hit the sweet spot that i need right right

exactly um and then so this story just like kept getting wilder and wilder. So like really to close out on a full dramaful note from Jean here, she actually died in London almost exactly two years before Marie Antoinette was killed in 1793. I quote, as a result of her injuries sustained from falling from her hotel room window while hiding from debt collectors. Whoa, holy shit. She just never had it easy okay so that's wow yeah and it gets really bad that's a bad one yeah a newspaper at the time actually reported that she had been found quote terribly mangled her left eye cut out one arm one of her arms and both of her legs were broken oh my god yeah it's almost like like maybe she fell and also there was some fell onto barbed wire what the fuck happened yeah it seems like i don't know maybe with like debt collectors it seemed to

imply more there i mean i don't fully know at all but geez okay yeah shit so she just had a rough start and a rough ending too yeah exactly and meanwhile marie antoinette's reputation would never recover from this most sources quote the affair of the diamond necklace as one of the straws that broke the camel's back when it came to the start of the french revolution it was scandalous and about wasted money and opulence and obviously marie Antoinette, who the French people already, like we talked about, symbolized their oppression. Especially when she was, you know, in their eyes eating cake and sneaking diamonds in the dead of night while they were all dying of starvation. Right, right. Like, just on a fun little adventure with all of her millions when, like, people can't even eat fucking bread.

Yeah. Yeah. Oof. So, yeah, that that's basically it everything boiled over right after that the french revolution started in 1789 along with the storming of the bastille and then the killing of marie antoinette in 1793 so that's basically that story but i do have a small little current day fun fact fun ish kind of bittersweet fact um in terms of royal families and queerness so actually only two weeks ago as of now it's october 26th um the netherlands my old study abroad haunt, they actually just announced the prime minister there. They still have a royal family, but they do have also a

prime minister. And basically the prime minister recently was just like, they were the first country ever to be like, hi, royal family, you can marry whoever you want, including queer partners. Yeah. Fun! So, God bless the Netherlands. They also were actually the first country God bless the Netherlands. Truly they also were actually the first country truly they're

also the first country to legalize same-sex marriage just in general for like the general population um over 20 years ago too that's so nice so love them love the netherlands love the netherlands are you kidding me yeah and uh yeah that's the story. I'm so sorry. That was so long of. Hey, this was this was long all the way through. It was not just you. So I know I'm I'm so glad that we had. I mean, thank you for teaching me about like lesbian icons.

I'm never going to say no to that. And thank you for being on for a whole month of and that's why we drink i hope everyone had a good time listening to sweet eva you know i uh what's so fun is i had just done like an instagram live uh maybe only like a week ago and people were saying like what are you going to do once once christine's like you know on maternity leave like are you just going to do the episodes yourself in that instagram live like six different people said, like, it'd be really cool if Eva comes on. And I was, I couldn't say anything, but I was like, oh, that's, it's a nice little validation that everyone's going to dig you. So that's so sweet. That made me cry a little bit. I really

was. I hope I did well. I hope I did the tiniest bit of justice to Christina all. And yeah, I just really enjoyed it. So thank you so much for having me on and letting me wax poetic about so many things. Well, next week, we are going to have a new guest host come on for the next month and someone that people might also enjoy getting to listen to. And then after that, we've got some more people coming on. So thank you, Eva. We appreciate you and we love you. And also everyone give like a nice little good vibe to Eva because you had to experience doing hours of research

and sometimes it's overwhelming. So I'm very proud of you. Oh, thank you. I appreciate it. It was super, again, I had such a good time doing it. So I just, yeah, I just appreciated it. Good way to end it. You know, queer history in some way.

You know, I figured I had, I started it. I started it with, you know, so a little queer story. Oh yeah, you started with lesbians. You end with lesbians. I mean, you know, you gotta do what you gotta do. You just, you gotta do what you gotta do. Yeah, exactly. And that's why we

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