And That's Why We Drink - E265 Generation Xiinön and Intergalactic Instant Messages

Episode Date: March 6, 2022

Happy Twosday! Em's celebrating by sending themself the most precious gift from the past and teaching us all a lesson in self care. They're also bringing us a mind-bending, alien-related topic today in the Fermi Paradox. Are we the most advanced beings in the universe or are we the hillbillies of the universe? Grab your wine (and wine colored shirts in case of spills), because we're pretty sure it's the latter. Then Christine covers the second in her two-part series on the horrifically abusive Élan School. And tag us if you accept Em's challenge and treat yourself to something nice! ...and that's why we eat chocolate covered strawberries we scheduled to have sent to us months ago!

they should we should have done the thing where like we clap that was so bad when we tried that like normal it was fine you always act like it was so bad but like i wish you saw it on my side because you would have agreed with me well there's always lag, but that's the point of doing it so that you can match up the audio. I mean, I understand the point of it. It just sounded really gnarly on my end. But it ended up working. I feel like the clap always is worse than us, our conversation. I don't know why the clap always feels like it lags more.

Anyway, welcome to And That's Why We Drink, where we don't clap, if you can't tell. We expect you to clap for us um we'll hear it i promise i'm drinking i'm drinking some wine how are you i'm fine how has your day been i feel bad that we're recording so late oh that's okay m has you know important pop star things to be doing over there. So we had a late recording session, but that's okay. Like not just late, like 24 hours late. Oh, that's true. Right. Okay.

You're supposed to record yesterday too. And I totally last minute was like, I am not going to be ready at all. So I thank you. I appreciate very much you being so accommodating and not giving me crap about it. Half the time it's me pushing it to be late. So it's all good. But I love that on brand today you're drinking tea. I'm drinking wine.

Well, I am drinking tea. I'm celebrating today. Do you know why? It is 2-2-2, baby. Oh, yeah. I'm so happy for you. It's a special day. It's Tuesday. Oh for you it's a special day it's tuesday oh and it's tuesday

i didn't even catch written by the gods i think written in the stars how's your two two two two two been it's been fine i am it really has been just like a normal day, but I've been thinking about this Tuesday since I was a little kid. And so I always expected like I would have planned something really obnoxiously elaborate. And then the time came and I'm like, wow, I've had literally decades to like make today really special and I just didn't do anything. So I'm kind of bummed at myself, but also not at all surprised. Well, but also it's kind of out of your control. Like it's like how I felt about my 30th birthday. I was like, wow, I would have done something special. But it was like in the middle of a pandemic. It's like, there's not really much you can

do at a certain point. Like, that's true. But I do like to buy myself presents. And I could have done that. So I like even the things that were in my control, I just didn't even think about it until it was too late so anyway sorry that's okay it's i mean at the end of the day it's just a day but there was like a lot of like familial pressure for two two two two tuesday uh because it was like supposed to be like a power year and like it was supposed to be such a cool time and it's like our lucky number in the whole family and it was gonna be like a cool thing and as a little kid I always manifested it as like that'll be the day I get married lol so I know I put a lot of pressure on myself so now I'm like well just sitting here in my socks drinking

tea you're talking to me I'm talking to you tell me how you're celebrating today miss Christine oh my gosh well my baby has stopped sleeping so that's fun so i'm always tired i don't know i wish i knew and then i would fix it but um is that like a just like a thing that happens yeah you know it's called a four month sleep regression um because they're learning all new things and she's trying to roll over all night and the the that they have like new sleep cycles they like develop REM cycles and so they start waking up way more often and um oh you know I feel like everyone's gonna have a tip and I do appreciate tips but I will tell you I've tried so many things and I've taken all the courses and I've read all the books and I'm I am probably

not doing something right I'm sure I'm not but at a certain point I think she just wants to wake up and party you know every hour and a half I don't blame her because I don't have to handle it but have you have you done the uh the Dwight Schrute thing where he like waves his hand in front of her face because that seemed to work with cc when she was regressing or whatever it's called um well no but maybe that'll be tonight's middle of the night like just last ditch effort um what did he say he said it was something like sucking on a piece of lard or something what was yeah a suet piece of suet just go find out i guarantee you renata has that in her pantry oh Oh, absolutely.

Yeah, that'll do the trick. Sue it on a piece of string to the finger. Oh, I love it. Well, I'm sorry. I'm sorry you're probably very sleepy, which I apologize. No, I appreciate the apologies, but it's not needed because I have wine. My wonderful partner is downstairs with the baby for the foreseeable future. So we are ready to rock and roll. For a moment, I thought you were going to say my wonderful partner is recording with me. And I do apologize anyway, because if you are even remotely sleepy, my topic is a thinker. Okay, can I say this now? Because I'm sleepy. Yes, but I'm, I'll be fine. But of all days, when we had to push recording yesterday, I was like, well, it's because I had to learn astrophysics. And I'm like, this is the need to hear about it again, which means, oh gosh, it's going to be a long night.

I was, well, I don't, I really did think like, oh, this is going to be a quick topic because I had seen like it explained in like a TikTok. So I was like, oh, it took 60 seconds. Like, I'm just going to elaborate a little bit. Give us some wiggle room to banter. It's going to be the perfect, easy breezy topic. False. banter it's gonna be the perfect easy breezy topic false i i all of a sudden ended up with like 40 pages of eight point font information and i was like uh-oh i gotta start learning and i was like i guess i am just gonna tackle it the best i can and then i still had like 12 pages left when it was like an hour to recording and i for some reason up until that moment i was like i can figure it out and i then i got overwhelmed so anyway thank you for pushing and letting me have another day i'm happy i'm happy to learn astrophysics yeah i'm happy to get

uh what's coming today instead of 12 pages of it um today you're just getting two pages of it so yeah i knew i knew like the payoff would be good. And I think you'll have fun with it because it is a little bit about aliens. Yay, tell me everything. I did think it'd be worth it because I thought I was like, sweet, sweet Christine loves a good alien experience. You make it sound like I have no thoughts behind my eyes. Sweet, sweet Christine. She's over there with her wine. Poor Allison too, because I'm always like, sweet Allison, sweet, sweet. It really sounds like you're talking to a golden retriever with nothing between their ears.

The worst part is like, I really do mean it with only love, but it does sound extremely condescending. It's sort of like, bless your heart, you know? I know how gross it sounds, but the people who- I actually like it. If you know, you know you know yeah it doesn't hurt my feelings at all i actually kind of like uh embrace it it'll hurt your feelings when you can tell that i'm judging you and i go sweet christine sweet christine this astrophysics stuff is just not for you okay well here we go christine uh by the way i just wanted to say i haven't talked to you in a while and i sure do miss you and i love you a lot i miss you too you texted earlier like i'm excited

to see your face and i was like i was about to say em i can't wait to see your face and then i looked at my phone we got some good faces maybe they should i don't know do a little bumping into each other sometime maybe they should scratch around see what happens scratch around why i'm trying to yes and you and it's so hard literally from across the country it should be very simple i can't even get to you if i wanted to it cost me like 500 i would not put it past you and your dumb brain and your dumb face that's fair enough okay here is the topic and you might have heard this before act excited anyway this is the topic the fermi paradox oh i've heard it and i have no idea what it is okay so i i think it's i think it's for me it could be like fermi i don't know f-e-r-m-i it's Fermi. It could be like Fermay. I don't know. F-E-R-M-I.

It's someone's last name. Oh, okay. So I'm going to rock with Fermi paradox. Because that's what my brain's been doing for the last like 48 hours. So it's too late to change. Okay. So I'm going to give you the concept first of what the Fermi paradox is. And very quickly, I think you'll understand where we're heading.

Okay. Just to give you some fun facts. And by the way, I think all of these facts came from a website called Wait But Why, which I love. Okay. I love that. So shout out to them. So here it goes.

Our galaxy, just, you know, take a stroll through the- I'm so excited about this. Okay. Our galaxy. Just, you know, take a stroll through these. I'm so excited about this. Okay. Our galaxy. You are interplanet Janet. And you are just trying to soar through this theory with me. Is that a thing? Interplanet Janet?

Homie, do you not know about Schoolhouse Rock? Oh, God. Not really. I mean, I know, like, the main songs, but that's about it. Interplanet Janet, she's a galaxy girl. No, I literally don't know about that at all. When I was in like second or third grade, I wanted to be Interplanet Janet for Halloween so bad. Well, you got to be Xenon at one point, so you could probably recycle that.

Absolutely. They're somehow in the same line if you look at Ancestry. that absolutely they're somehow in the same line if you look at ancestry okay so interplanet janet our galaxy our galaxy alone just the milky way has a hundred billion to 400 billion stars dear lord okay so for every star out there i did not know this was like a thing but apparently for every star out there it is basically that means there's another galaxy out in the universe so for there to be 100 to 400 billion stars out there that means there's an equal number of potential galaxies out in the universe oh my god i have a feeling i know where you're going with this whole paradox thing because i already have a headache holy shit okay i try I spent so long trying to simplify this so it will not give you a headache. Too late.

One bullet in. So for every star in the Milky Way, there's a whole galaxy out there. Okay. Just to give you a better, cleaner idea of how many that is. For every grain of sand on Earth, for every grain of sand, there is 10,000 planets. What? In our Milky Way? Or in our galaxy? 10,000 stars. 10,000 stars.

Yes. Holy shit. Just to blow your mind. And for every one of those stars, there's $10,000 for Jeff Bezos. I didn't know where we were going, but yeah. So 10,000 stars per grain of sand on the entire Earth. So of all of those stars, about 20% of those stars conservatively, because some people say it's um or no they say five to twenty percent

depending on which scientist you're talking to it's five to twenty which to me is a wide range five five to twenty percent is a wide range five to twenty percent of those stars are sun like which uh is like more of an indicator that there is life nearby. Ooh, okay. So 5 to 20% of maybe 400 billion stars. Okay. So conservatively, let's pretend we're just rocking with the 5% situation. That still means there are 500 quintillion or 500 billion billion oh god sun-like stars so that's that's the number we're working with now so now holy shit between another wide range between 20 to 50 percent of those

now is that sorry is that still in our galaxy or is that just like just our galaxy oh my god what uh or you can, Oh no, no, no. Hang on. There's a whole galaxy out there. I think this is the universe.

This is the whole universe. Oh, okay. It makes me feel a little better. Or the more observable universe. Cause we only know so much about the universe so far. So if we're only working with 5% of those stars out there, only 500 quintillion are sun-like stars

conservatively again they say between 20 to 50 percent of those have potentially habitable earth-like planets or planets nearby that someone that life could be created on okay so between 20 to 50 percent of those sun-like stars have this potential. Okay. So if we're sticking with the conservative leaning towards just 20% of them, that's still 100 billion billion Earth-like planets that are theoretically habitable. Habitable. Sorry.

Okay. Oh my God. Okay. So life could, in theory, be created on 100 billion billion Earth-like planets out there. Got it. And if we were to be wildly conservative and only 1% of those planets had life on them. Right. And then of that 1%, if only 1% of them had life on them that evolved into intelligent life.

Oh, okay. them had life on them that evolved into intelligent life okay that would still mean 10 quadrillion intelligent civilizations are in the observable universe 10 quadrillion or 10 million billion if that's easier for you to swallow um like kind of i guess a little bit oh my god that many intelligent civilizations could exist okay um so in our galaxy alone so that was in the observable universe but if we're just talking about our galaxy the math basically breaks down to the potential of there being a hundred thousand other intelligent civilizations around us currently wow i just got goose cam so if that's true then some of them must be sending out signals but we can't hear them and so the fermi paradox is where the fuck is everybody i just got goose cam where are they oh god that is so spooky. Isn't it silly? I was like, now Christine is going to love this.

I literally just picked up their cup of tea to take a little sip watching my face. I was like, I knew exactly what I was bringing to the table. Hmm. Okay. So that's basically the Fermi Paradox. Trying to figure out where all these other potential life forms are. Where are you, alien? Why can't I find you?

Why can't I see you? Maybe they're who's or something. Maybe, hang on, we just have to sing loud enough and they'll come. Sing it loud for all to hear. And I'll. Now you're speaking alien life form language. So, yeah, so especially, okay, so if there's that many life forms out there, they must be sending out signals. But like someone out there, in theory, at least one of them has tried to make contact with us.

Especially if some or even most of those civilizations are older than us and therefore much more advanced and their technology is capable of making contact with us. Interesting. So to give you some context, Earth is only 4 billion years old. I know. Spring chicken. earth is only four billion years old oh my god spring chicken uh only four billion years old but there are other planets out there that could be double or triple our age so double or triple as advanced as us well if they're as stupid as we are they probably blew it up by now i feel like we're not gonna last that long they're like we've heard of earth we're out of here they're like we have our own jeff bezos and we went the same way you guys

are going i don't know if we're the one of the younger planets ish does that mean we're technically like the generation alphas or something like gen is it we're generation xenon the gen xenons stop it christine she's right now the new band like in um the the Disney original flick that we're going to create? Flick. Okay, we're certainly not Gen Z. You know, the talkies that we're going to be in. They'll love it. Let's go to the Nickelodeon and watch them.

So, okay. So if our Earth is only half or a third the age of some other potential civilizations out there, and if interstellar, that's the phrase, interstellar travel, which is just space travel or traveling from planet to planet or galaxy to galaxy. If interstellar travel existed somewhere in the last 10 billion years before we even got here, surely Earth could have been visited in the last four billion years right like it's just like where is everyone so our whole galaxy could be explored and colonized fun fact within only a few million years but in space terms that's like a blink of an eye so it's not like it would

take a lot of time theoretically to be colonized to be explored to be made contact with so like has it happened yet and we just don't know about it right so i will get into all the theories oh i'm so excited so this is where seti comes in set SETI stands for Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence. And it's an organization that basically listens for any detection of signals by other life. So far, there has been no luck. There have been a few times where, like, we thought we found something, and then it was always easily explained away. away so uh SETI basically looks for radio signals or non-natural signals to imply that there is intelligent life out there creating this on their own if that makes sense yeah um which in my opinion is its own like potential reason for why we're not making contact with anyone because it's a big assumption that they would be also sending signals with radio

missions you know like good point yeah so anyway that's my first argument of like we're taking a real wild leap there assuming especially if they're so advanced that's exactly what i was thinking like in 500 years even we'll probably not be using that same technology. Yeah. So an example of what they're looking for when they're looking for non-natural signals, if an alien were looking for us, they might look for our non-natural radio waves due to our television broadcasts or any... Our podcasts.

A podcast. Any, quote, accidental byproducts of civilization. So before they even got there, they would be able to see that, oh, shit's stirring about. And it would only be able to do that if life were there causing the stir. Right. Makes sense. So there's this scale called the Kardashev scale. And this is used to distinguish how powerful a civilization might be at colonizing other space what ew that's

so creepy so there's only three types and it's basically each of them are categorized into how much power they can harness as a civilization there's type one type two and type three type one which we are within the century it's predicted we will be a type 1 intelligent civilization. Is that like the highest or the lowest? Lowest. So are we zero right now? We're currently like out of nothing. Oh, got it.

So you can be none of the above also. You can be like. Yes, you have to, I think, graduate to type 1, then type 2, then type 3. You have to, I think, graduate to type one, then type two, then type three. So type one, which is what we are approaching within the century, is that we as a civilization can use or harness or control in some way all of the energy on our home planet. Okay. And then type two is that you can use or control all the energy of your host star. So like not just Earth, it would be like the fucking solar system.

The sun. Yeah. I imagine. Yeah. And then type three is you can harness all the energy of your own galaxy. Good luck. I know. Like, hmm, we can just channel the Milky Way.

Meanwhile, we like don't know where to put our trash. Okay. Good luck. That's why we're type zero currently we're literally killing dolphins with straws and we can't even yeah we're not figuring out i'm with you yeah so as far as we know i mean this could be we could be totally fucking wrong but there's no evidence suggesting it but um there is no such thing yet as a type two or type 3 civilization i mean as far as we know we're the most intelligent civilization to exist and we're barely a type 1 because there's no evidence of anything else yet a keyword as far as we know right as far as we know but the but the

math suggests if in our galaxy alone there's a hundred thousand intelligent civilizations and most of them are older than us there's got to be some that have the ability you would think so to have to harness either the sun or the galaxy's energy they know how to like put their trash away properly at least yeah the the math is there if if one percent of the probable intelligent colonizations in our galaxy were a type three civilization could control the energy of the galaxy that's a thousand intelligent civilizations yeah like if one percent of the 100 000 you know i mean like there's that's crazy yeah it's bananas that also shouldn't we be seeing so that becomes a whole question too of like well if at the most conservative numbers yeah there should be a thousand civilizations that can do this like

when we see changes in the milky way all the time if they have that kind of power was using the energy weird okay so since they uh yeah so since they would be like that since a thousand of these intelligent life forms could be a type three or capable of harnessing the energy of an entire galaxy we would notice them and we would have evidence of someone out there yeah you'd think so those are just some of the main questions with this fermi paradox so here here's some of the history of how the Fermi paradox even began. So in 1950, there were a bunch of physicists just like going to lunch. And I guess they started talking about recent UFO sightings, or the potential for interstellar travel one day. day and one of these physicists happened to be enrico fermi or fair me um he was a noble prize winner he was a nuclear physicist and he built the first nuclear reactor oh that's casual cool

okay first date flex uh he is called the architect of the atom bomb or the atomic bomb. Wow. Okay. So at some point he kind of makes the claim of like, well, where is everybody like interstellar travel? If there are, you know, the things I've just been talking about this whole time, he kind of just blurts out where is everybody.

And that is considered the moment where people started realizing like, Oh, we should do some research and figure out what's going on so around this time scientists have uh start exploring the potential for interstellar travel and uh they start looking at their options to make contact with intelligent extraterrestrials and there's actually a debate on whether enrico fermi was really concerned or interested in extraterrestrials or if it was about interstellar travel and I guess and like the astronomy community this is like a real hot button issue okay I was like who cares but I guess some people really do some people very much care

and so uh they say like well he was interested in more interstellar travel and that was it makes sense why he'd be so confused about that because we hadn't even gone to the moon yet in 1950 so like to him it just seemed impossible and that might have been more on the forefront or something because he was probably not discussing extraterrestrials specifically or that's like what this the camp believes um they prefer sometimes to consider it the heart tipler paradox instead of the fermi paradox because heart and tipler were describing more extraterrestrial concepts okay okay so i i did have to Google both to see if the information was different. So anyway, so in 1975 for the Hart-Tipler paradox slash the Fermi paradox, depending on who you are in 1975,

Michael Hart, he was writing about extraterrestrials visiting earth. And he basically said, we haven't seen evidence of it. And if they are smarter and bigger and badder than us, they would have colonized us by now because they can. And we would have seen proof of it. But there's not even like artifacts of it happening thousands of years ago. So I'm in the camp that they just don't exist. Blah, blah, blah. Okay. um then there was another guy named frank tipler who also wrote about this um along with heart and he basically said whether or not they exist how would they even have the resources of like possible to colonize galaxies like what does that look like how how is it cost efficient is it energy efficient like what does it take to actually colonize galaxies?

Right. So interesting because now as time goes on, it feels like it's more and more possible. But I guess his theory at the time was like, if aliens are real or if intelligent life is out there and they're colonizing galaxies, is out there and they're colonizing galaxies they probably have this contraption that is more or less a smart machine or smart computer which could travel through space for civilizations instead of them physically doing it so it was it was almost like they would send drones to colonize for them instead of like aliens having physically going go out and do it. Okay, that's interesting. So either way, if they were able to, that's his theory. But Michael Hart and Frank Tipler were both kind of like,

I don't know if aliens exist. Or if they did, where are they? And so this is kind of the beginning of what is referred to as the Great Silence. And so this is kind of the beginning of what is referred to as the great silence, which is very, very much the Fermi paradox of why have we never heard from any other life forms if they very likely exist? Like based on numbers, if they very likely exist. You'll probably get to this, but like maybe they just don't give a shit about it. You know what I mean? Maybe they're like, no, no. That's theory number three, Christine.

Okay. I'm like, maybe they're like not worth it because i think i ascribe to that theory honest hang in there i'll when number three shows up i'll be like christine do you have any thoughts it worries my hand yeah so uh yeah so they very much that's their idea is like this great silence or the paradox in general is just like we just don't know where they are and i believe it's because they don't exist okay so then by i guess during this time while scientists are gauging the probability of extraterrestrial life even existing this one guy named frank drake he decides i'm going to come up with an equation to figure out the probability that there are intelligent civilizations in our galaxy and how many so he comes up with this like as far as i'm concerned like arbitrary equation but it's

called the drake equation came out in 1961 and it's basically how many potential signals are out there that we should be detecting from intelligent life okay the equation is real fucking kooky so i'm not even gonna try thank you because i was like are you gonna read it to me because my brain won't absorb i can i can but it's like it would look like it would look like i fell into a puddle of the alphabet and letters just kind of splattered everywhere um but it's basically what is interesting about it about the equation is that it kind of splattered everywhere. But it's basically, what is interesting about it, about the equation, is that it kind of just becomes more and more specific of like how many numbers,

so one of them is like the rate that stars in the galaxy form, that number times the fraction of those stars with planet systems, and the fraction of those with that sustained life, the fraction of those that have organic sustainable life, the fraction of those with that sustained life, the fraction of those that have organic sustainable life, the fraction of those with intelligent life. So it kind of just goes down and down and becomes more and more specific,

but you multiply each of those numbers, and it's one of those permutations or computations or something like that. And it basically gives you the number of technologically advanced civilizations near us. So here's the problem with the drake equation is that many of these variables are completely unknown so you can just throw a fucking number there and you're gonna get a completely different number alphabet puddle

and like that one's a number puddle that's the number oh i'm sorry you could fall into a number but that's where i fell okay got it and so yeah it just it it becomes really biased because if someone's a skeptic they're going to pick different numbers than someone who's a believer and so right and it probably changes wildly depending on what numbers are in there yes and even though it's a very rough range like it's very wide it's all based on random numbers plugged into the formula and it's not accurate. It's, it was supposed to be like, I think a rough draft of an equation. And then it just never got perfected since the sixties. And so astronomers still use it for

like guesstimates. Oh, okay. Which is wild. There was actually a quote from national geographic in 2000 where someone said the Drake equation is a wonderful way to organize our ignorance. I love that. I was like, at least you're honest because like there's no one can use the Drake equation and think they're actually like there's no gotcha moment. Right. That's funny. Yeah. So despite not having a lot of information, one of the most recent opinions we've gotten is from the University of Oxford.

And they have a Future of Humanity Institute. Oh, cool. And they published a study addressing the Drake equation where they basically said no matter whether you're a skeptic or a believer, the numbers are always too high. whether you're a skeptic or a believer, the numbers are always too high. And they actually came up with their, I don't know if they came up with their own equation, but they came up with their own estimates of what the numbers should really look like.

And basically they suggested that the likelihood of other intelligent civilization out there is like kind of fucking nothing, like not a situation. Their best guess from fucking oxford i think uh i think it's like a pretty serious situation here they say that there is probably a 53 to 99.6 percent chance that we are alone in the galaxy really blows? Blows my mind. And then they also said that there's a wide gamut, 39 to 85% chance that we are alone in the whole universe.

That was my next question. If they did that. Well, I don't understand the math or like, cause in my mind, if there is no proper equation or no like solution to. Right. If it doesn't work, then why?

How do you use? Like what equation did you use to get that? If you're avoiding the Drake equation that like there's no other equation people are using. So I don't totally know. All I know is like a big publication gave that kind of info and it's like kind of a real bummer. It is a bummer. It makes. It's very depressing.

So if you ask Oxford, they're like, the reason we haven't heard anything is because we're fucking alone. You know what? I didn't ask Oxford and I don't think anyone did. I'm certainly not going to ask again. I'm certainly not going to ask for a follow up. I want nothing to do with it. So here's my favorite part of all of my notes because I think it's like kind of precious. It's like kind of precious.

So the most when it comes to like the signals that we are putting out there, hoping someone will make contact with us and our efforts. The most famous deliberate attempt to communicate with other life is the I don't know if it's Arecibo or Arecibo. I don't know if the C is hard or soft. Arecibo message. Okay, that sounds vaguely familiar. So in 1974, we sent a radio signal to star cluster M13. Okay. This message, this radio message was written by scientists, including Carl Sagan and Frank Drake, the guy who came up with the equation. And the message is less than three minutes long.

It is made of nearly 1,700 binary digits. And, quote, when translated into graphics, characters, and spaces, forms an image. When translated into graphics, characters, and spaces, forms an image. So if for some reason this message got sent to them and they hear differently or they see messages differently, it would create a picture. Oh boy, what is it? So let me just... I'm so excited. So keep in mind it was 1974. Oh, I will.

What is this? Doesn't it look like a weird- alien message it looks like um minecraft it looks like one of those um oh my god what are they called where you put the pegs in the light to light bright light bright light bright it looks like a light bright Light bright, light bright. It looks like a light bright. Okay, what is it? I see a little man. So I'll say this.

So also if you were to play it, I would play it for you, but it's very annoying. It's basically very high pitched frequency sounds and it's like not enjoyable to argue. My dumb ass picture of them being like, hello, my name is Mr. Drake. I thought the same thing. Like, oh, they obviously speak English.

Speak English, right. like what am i the anglo-saxon aliens from star cluster m13 so uh to be fair this wasn't meant to be a direct message but more of just like evidence for others that we exist so if i don't think they were trying to do anything where they opened up a huge door to communication but it was more like if you catch this signal here's some very basic information that we are here yeah it looks like a cave painting that we would find and be like what does it mean like an alien hieroglyphic um yes so the message it really does just sound like kind of Morse code, I guess. Okay. But it has some like very rudimentary fun facts about our civilization listed in the message.

No way. Which I don't know how it's translated where we're supposed to pick up on that. I don't totally know what like what code they used. Well, you said it's in binary, right? It's in binary oh you're totally right okay so that could be it so here are the fun facts listed in if any dip or some wine i'm so excited about this okay if an alien were to hear about us this is the best chance of information they've got okay bring it on the numbers one through ten good job

like what are they gonna do with that be like these are some silly little bumps right right like okay anyway imagine an alien gives you like their number system like first of all I wouldn't even know it was their number system with no context right

so like I wouldn't even know what to do with it I would probably can you imagine like the like uh like what is the word archaeologist can you imagine like the archaeologist today who just like look and look and their entire life is dedicated to this thing from thousands of years ago and it might be like one through ten like so embarrassing it is embarrassing so okay so the numbers one through ten then really taking it up a notch from like kindergarten to at least high school the atomic numbers of the elements which make up dna oh okay they were like this they'll understand like okay i think it's to like prove that that's what we're made of in case

they're trying to like know how we got here i don't totally know but so it's the atomic numbers of hydrogen carbon nitrogen oxygen and phosphorus which like isn't hydrogen one didn't we already do that with one through ten they're like they're like crossing over. This symbol is over here and the symbol is over here. Oh my God. Then next up, because I really just skyrocket from here. The formulas for sugars and bases in the nucleotides of DNA. So what? They're giving them a guide to cloning us?

I don't understand. Like an ingredient list for human beings. The number of nucleotides in DNA. And then I think what this picture is, or part of it, a graphic of a DNA double helix. Okay. I see. Okay. Here's the thing.

If this arrived on Earth, I'd be like, big whoop. Tell me something interesting about you yourself you know like i don't want to know about your fucking chemistry like tell me about what tv you watch two truths and a lie the formulas for sugars and bases in the nucleotides of dna honestly like something slightly more entertaining like a funny picture of a dog like i feel like you could have put anything in here that would have been slightly more entertaining but okay today in 2022 i'm sure we would have sent like a cat meme or something like tick tock yeah i've been like you'll figure it out um i also like wonder like and i feel like you know when you're desperate to look for an answer and so

you'll almost give anything a reason like Like, I feel like if you're, I feel like if some, let's say I'm the alien that discovered this message and now I'm like trying to like go through it. I feel like I would find out like the number like 10. I don't know. And I would be like, I mean, that's the number of nucleotides in DNA,

but like, I don't think you put that in this message. You know, like, I feel like we, they would almost like totally miss the point anyway yeah it it's like what even is the point like are you trying to send it like it doesn't seem like there is a point it's like just a bunch of random shit yeah I feel like I'm insulting a bunch of people who work in this field and I apologize Carl Sagan who literally sorry Carl I'm sorry I'm so sorry like okay so here's another one the figure of a human which I guess is what one of those pictures is. That's the thing, that little red guy?

I think so. Like, that's the best this alien has. That's the figure of a human? They're not going to know what the fuck that is. Are you kidding? Even if they brought that on, like, a map and then came to Earth, they'd be like, where's this thing as they're talking to other humans? Exactly. No, 100%.

Like, what? Okay. Here's the next thing. The size of an average man, like, but not like, like height or weight or width? And also not a woman, but okay. Yeah, of course. Shoe size? Like, how detailed are we with the size here?

Or is it just like the number? Or is it just like the number six for like six feet? And also like we we expect them to know the metric system hang on right okay right and what if it's like okay i was gonna go back to penises but we don't need to talk about that every time that's fine i feel like they could be like 11 inches that's the average what about you guys oh you gotta learn the metric system they totally lied you know they did of course oh my god cuban oh but imagine if they had like that little red man though and they were like but this guy's three

like it was just you'll understand when you see by the way the way we're handling this i feel like every scientific community needs like two almost like gen z millennial mean girls to be like um that's stupid um hello do you know what i would think if i saw that i'm generation xenon and i have a lot to say okay so then there's also um the number of the human population of earth which was in 1974 so figure that one out for yourself it's changed yeah um also like really assuming like there isn't like a mass extinction by the time this message gets to them really really bold assumption and then i don't know what i don't know how in depth this goes but i just this is a whole quote by the way everything i'm describing this is all

from wikipedia the next thing that was listed in this message is the solar system which i don't know if that means like a list of the planets or like how the entire thing works yeah anyway and then the last thing that it mentions is the observatory that this message came from and the diameter of the transmitting antenna dish i mean that seems like so not interesting or important or important like there's so many things i feel like you would want to say like we come in peace we right i could come up we are nice we are nice please don't hurt me yeah we have dogs here be careful i don't know like anything so here's the most infuriating part of all of this oh no i want you to guess how long

it will take that message from 1974 to actually get to star cluster m13 you're kidding me um 100 years it is going to take 25 000 years to reach them and then another 25 000 years if they were to give us an immediate reply because now it has to come back the other way my god like and they had the fucking nerve to be like this is the population of earth here's a man it's like nobody gives a shit here 25 000 years ago this was our population by the way one thing they didn't fucking mention in that message the time it was sent like okay that was what i was gonna say like i received like i assume i assume if these other people are smart enough to send a message back they could probably trace it back but oh how awkward though 25 000 years later

that's like a catfish in the making. Like, they show up and they're like, you gave us a totally different idea of what it was like over here. We thought you were little red men who were three inches tall with 11-inch penises. And we are sorely disappointed and we are going home. Okay. Goodbye. Also, it'll take us 25,000 years to turn around and go back home. We're going to do the long drive home also

like what happens if 25 000 years pass and then that message gets to them and they're like like what do we think they're gonna do like holy shit we gotta get to earth like they know one through ten yeah wow they watch sesame street congratulations what are they supposed to do with this information the other infuriating thing is because it will take 25,000 years, by the time it gets there, M13 won't even be at that location. Oh, for fuck's sake. So, like, what is the point? They're just sending it into fucking the void, I guess. How awkward.

I feel embarrassed that this was sent on my behalf, you know? Like, I wish we all could have like taken part think of the people literally going to be born 20 000 years from now who are also going to have to be embarrassed because another 5 000 years have to pass until the aliens start laughing at us that's so embarrassing and also like if they're already realistically if they're already wildly technologically advanced compared to us and and now imagine another 25 000 years of advancements and we send them a fax from 74 like what are you talking about who is going to want to see us like you all you've all you've done is make it clear that they shouldn't come here that they want

nothing to do with us honestly that's so embarrassing of facts oh no so our technology uh obviously has not uh been able to detect any signals yet and the theory is that other civilizations equipment would be more advanced and could pick up this weird message maybe and maybe there's life elsewhere but we are the only intelligent civilization so far that we know of. And that might be because of the Great Filter. What's that? So the Great Filter is in a, this is like one of the bigger concepts in this paradox, the Great Filter. So the Great Filter is an event that happens in theory on every civilization at some point um and it stops

civilization from evolving any further and ends the civilization altogether so it's kind of just the thing that butterfly effect keeps us from existing anymore so the event could be anything it could be natural it could be man-made it could be solar flares it could be climate change it could be asteroids it could be nuclear warfare or even it could be an event so early in the civilization's existence that civilization barely existed to begin with and was immediately eradicated so the concept of basic molecules never becoming complex because of whatever conditions are on that planet. Like that could be the great filter.

And like because they never became more complex, life just never continued. Now by civilization, do you mean like the Romans or do you mean like humans in general? Just intelligent life. Oh, okay. So it's not just like a one cultural civilization. It's like overall, okay. Overall, just like an intelligent life form living somewhere else. Okay.

And so the idea is maybe a lot of these places that statistically intelligent civilizations exist, maybe there's a huge chunk of them where the great filter took them out before they could have ever become intelligent so even though mathematically it makes sense that they would have existed they just never even got the chance because they got wiped out too early right so technically they existed they just didn't get very far which would make the math sound but it would also explain why we're not hearing them because they never got further than being molecules they never learned how to make effects they never got further than being molecules. They never learned how to make a fax.

They never learned how to make themselves. They were literally... Why would they? Okay, fair. That's the saddest thing I ever heard, but okay. So the major points or the major concepts which lead to intelligent life, to I guess answer more your question of like what it means to become a civilization. Right. life to i guess answer more your question of like what what it means to become a civilization right there's a list of pivotal things that have to happen in order for you to become a civilization all the way from the beginning of the timeline you have to have a star system with proper

conditions for intelligent life to be created okay then there have to be reproductive molecules there have to be simple single cells then there have to be complex single cells after that then there has to be reproduction then the multi-cell life eventually it becomes tool using animals and which then ultimately becomes what our intelligent civilization is today. So it's like all these big evolutionary things have to happen for us to get even to here. And sex. And sex. That was the reproduction one.

And so the great filter suggests that if something catastrophic happens at any point in the timeline, then we are no longer able to become intelligent life or thrive as intelligent life or communicate with other intelligent life okay um or like even if there's other intelligent life out there that somehow has survived up into this point like we have or maybe even further on if we're out we're out we can't talk to them right so one of the big theories behind why we haven't made contact with other life forms is because at some point in other civilizations or potential civilizations, a great filter-causing event happened and destroyed them early on. So because – I know I keep repeating myself, but I'd rather over-explain. No, no, no. It's good.

I'm actually following for once. Hey! I told you I learned astrophysics. I'm telling you, and I'm learning it. Wow. So because so many things have for us to have even gotten here, there has to have been so many things that went perfectly right in perfect order under perfect conditions for us to have even gotten past like, I don't know, like simple cells and like. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All the way to like being able to use tools and then like having our own intelligent civilizations like it's just like what are the odds right

probability wise that of those 1000 potential intelligent civilizations in our galaxy how many of them beat the odds and also got as far as we did totally makes sense so for us even like even though it's amazing that we're here it took earth billions of years to even get to this point sure so we for all we know could be a complete random fluke and that's how like we just happened to survive existing this long when most don't that tracks though like we're just all sitting here all depressed and you know in the 21st century and it's like we were just all a fucking fluke. I was supposed to be a simple cell organism. I was supposed to have a one-track life, and here we are.

I was supposed to be a fish in a puddle. What happened? Now we got to work? Are you kidding me? So most civilizations, the theory goes that because of the great filter and the catastrophic events that probably happened earlier on in civilizations, most civilizations probably aren't as lucky and something ended them way before they could ever make contact with us. Which then, like I said earlier, already it tracks mathematically that those civilizations could have existed, but it also tracks for why we're not hearing anybody because we might actually be alone. Yeah.

So this leads to the question, did we accidentally survive a great filter event? And like, if we're alone because it is so improbable for us to have made it this far, and very few do, did we accidentally survive an event that was supposed to wipe us out? Who let that happen, by the way? Who did that?

Who took a smoke break and let us survive? I feel like that wasn't supposed to happen. Well, here's the other flip side to that question. Or has the Great Filter event not happened yet? Well, that's also... Or is it happening currently? I mean, I would argue it's entirely possible. Climate change!

Climate change! A lot of's entirely possible. Climate change. Climate change. Yep. A lot of possibilities. Warfare climate change. I think it was a, there was a study, I didn't keep it in my notes, but there was a study, I think in 2018 that basically said our great filter event is the climate change going on right now. Well, I'm not shocked at all.

Like that does not surprise me. So here's the thing. If the great filter event hasn't happened yet, uh-oh, we're fucked. And we might cease to exist before we're ever able to make contact with other life. And the other really depressing version of that is even if we were to put out more messages or more signals, even if we put out the signals now, we might cease to exist before we ever find out that someone actually did get the signal. Because if you think about that one message from 1974, it's going to take 25,000 years for it to actually get to them. And in those 25,000 years, we could fucking die.

And by the time they hear this like fun little text from us or AIM message, basically. Yeah. By the time they find out about it, we've been dead for 20,000 years. So it's like. Well, they can probably see that message and be like, yeah, they didn't survive. Like they'll see the message and be like, sorry. I don't even need to look this up. I know this message is from beyond the grave.

They were faxing us. We know they didn't make it much farther. So here's. So if we did somehow survive it, though the and like we're not supposed to have made it this far then we can consider ourselves one of the very special civilizations to have made it this far and have advanced this far and we shouldn't and thus we shouldn't expect other civilizations to have done that to have done that too so this encourages one of the theories called the rare earth hypothesis which is basically that we are special and uh not every other civilization has

been able to get this far our planet's conditions are weirdly perfect to sustain life for longer and it implies less of a chance of intelligent life being out there. The opposite is the mediocrity principle. And that's we're not fucking special. Yeah. Well, I really hesitate to fall into that. We're so special, Kim, because it's just hard to believe. But yeah, OK. So the mediocrity principle is something that Carl Sagan and Frank Drake both stand by.

is something that Carl Sagan and Frank Drake both stand by. And I don't know if this was something that they said or if this is just more updated information, but our galaxy seems to be as similar to 77% of other galaxies. Okay, now that's interesting. So there's really nothing special about us. Our conditions are perfect for sustaining life. And therefore, this is more pro-extraterrestrials exist because if there's a 77% chance that other Earth-like planets have life like us, then they have made it and the Great Filter theory or the Great Filter event didn't wipe them out. Right.

theory or the great filter event didn't wipe them out. Right. So although this suggests that there's other life out there, this is an interesting caveat where it's like, it's like, okay, so there is other life out there. The mediocrity principle stands firm. There's a bunch of civilizations out there or there's a bunch of life out there but it doesn't always mean that it has become intelligent life it most one of the theories is basically that even though there is a lot of life out there maybe there is a fluke that we are

one of the earlier ones and therefore currently the more advanced or based on their conditions they take longer to evolve than we did and so even if there are like what is it a hundred thousand right whatever chances of there being life in our galaxy most of them could just be fucking cells and molecules some shit yeah so technically yeah there's a lot of other life out there but it is not even aware that it could make contact with us. Right. Okay. So what that then leads to is the concept of like, it's not a great argument for other civilizations actually existing out there. Because if you think about how long it took Earth to get us to where we are. Billions of years. First of all, billions of years to create,

to have all these creatures, to eventually evolve us into who we are today. And out of all of that time of Earth's existence to get us here, there is only one species on Earth, us, who have been able to even come up with scientific advancements to make contact. Right. If you think of all the time it took, all of the species out there on earth and out of all those species good point of life we're the only ones like what is what is that fraction or that number that very small number of success

of being able to reach out so when you think of like all of the other planets out there that probably have life on them, if it's anything like earth, there could be several, several, several, several, several thousands or hundreds or whatever types of species that are technically intelligent life, but they have no, there's no way they're going to be able to talk to us. There's just a lot of rhinoceroses. Exactly. A lot of pigeons. And it's like, I don't know. There's actually a theory that I talk about in a second called the water world hypothesis where there's a theory that

most intelligent life out there is just fish so it's like there's like yeah it's technically intelligent life but like your nightmare it's my fucking nightmare but also like not a chance in hell are we ever going to be able to make contact with them so like it's it's just really interesting when you think of like for earth to take this long to get one species that can make contact with you how long is it going to take any other to have only a handful i think you probably already said this but like a handful of people within our entire species who can pull that off. I feel like that alone is such a good point. Like think of every, not just like the population of everyone that's ever lived on earth, but the population of every living creature that's ever been on earth. And there's probably like, I don't know,

a thousand or two of them that actually know how like rockets work. Like, right. Like Carl Sagan. Like, there we go. The odds of that. Right. So like, I'm sure it's more than a thousand scientists out there, but like, you know what I mean? Like the number is so small. The probability of even our most advanced and intelligent life form after billions of

years. Right. So few of us can do it. It makes sense. So that's, to me, I think that's my favorite theory of, like, why we haven't heard from anyone. Because, yeah, they could exist, but, like... They're all fish.

Damn, there's, like, one of them. Like, there's one that could probably make contact with us. So who knows? Yeah. Or they're all, yeah, dolphins. So anyway, here are just... Now I'm done with all of the other stuff. This is just the possibilities.

Ooh, okay. This is just is just like the main running theories. So number one, these aren't in a certain hierarchy. These are just listed. Number one is that intelligent life could have already come here. And it was just so far before we ever even got here that even if there were artifacts or evidence of them being here we're it's not even part of our realm of understanding that they were aliens okay um so they could have been here but there's no evidence that we know of of it the second one which uh falls into the great filter is that maybe other life was interested in making contact with us but they became extinct before either

we got here or their signal got here okay makes like we just never got to make contact with them even if they tried they were already wiped out do you remember what number three is oh fuck i got all excited and then i drank so much wine um number three was they were like we don't want anything to do with you. Yes. That they're just not interested. They're just not into you. It's sad, but it's kind of a truth we have to accept. Uh, let me see where I, what I wrote down for this. He's just not that into you and I don't necessarily blame him. So here's the thing. They're not, they could just be completely uninterested. They could see us as inferior or not worth their time.

Also check, check, check, check. I mean, this falls into it too, but if we're so, if they're so advanced, why on earth would you go to such a primitive area? Like, I guess to take it over is my only thought. Right. Like, unless you were there for some dominance, in which case we should be so lucky that they were such a throwaway planet. They're like, we don't even want to dump like that would be too easy unless we've destroyed the planet enough that they're like it's not worth saving so um here's another idea about how they're uninterested though they

may be um so advanced on their own planet or in their own galaxy that they've already discovered and explored everything they need and every need of theirs is already fulfilled so they don't even they're not interested to right like expand that makes sense yeah it's not even interest in fascination it's like they're not interested in like changing their way of they don't need it right right like also they could be like they could be a utopian and they're like all we we truly just want everyone to leave us alone and we leave you alone and we're perfect where we are if they're a utopia they should probably avoid avoid one look at us and yeah they would be like oh it's oppression some here's another one some civilizations this is a very wonky belief but it falls under the they could be uninterested in us

there was one theory that some civilizations out there could be so technologically advanced that they basically have like a very well set up metaverse experience where they can just are what was it was like that black mirror episode or something or i feel like there was a tv series oh it was called upload literally called upload where they basically their day-to-day is they upload their minds into virtual worlds, and they just live there, and they are blissfully unaware of the physical universe around them. Oh, wow. So they're not even physically present. Check the fuck out.

Got it. So they could, like, upload their minds onto machines, and if they wanted to, they could even explore galaxies from, like, like working from home like like work from home like distant uh working remote or whatever but um yeah you literally just said that but like that could be the concept too of like they've just they're so advanced like the idea of even space exploration is primitive to them okay um another one is that this is like a common regular conspiracy theory that the government has found out that there are signals out there and just haven't told us about it about that too yeah another one is that this is my another favorite of mine we just live too far away from other life forms for them to colonize us. Basically that we're in the sticks.

Inconvenient. We're like. We're in the sticks. We're in the boonies of the galaxy. And like, so the first of all, the distance between our galaxy and theirs might be just not worth the trip. Or maybe it's so far away that they're like kind of like the facts from 1974. Maybe they're mid trip and it's just taking thousands of years and we don't know like we'll be right there or we're alien hillbillies yeah i like that theory beverly hillbillies but the earth hillbillies

so even if they wanted to talk to us uh or send signals to us maybe by the time the message got to us they would be extinct because of the great filter or depending on their civilization the distance from their galaxy to ours could be too energy costly and they it's not worth the resources sure and for all we know if we really are quote in the sticks here's the fun part maybe they have colonized and or are in full communication with other galaxies but we're we're just like left out we just have like full FOMO that hurts my feelings one of the original physicists that talked to Fermi that day in 1950 he basically said like what if we're just not part of like the metrop metropolitan you know galaxy conquests what if we're just like are they

out in rural bumfuck nowhere galaxy dare they and we just don't know it another theory is that these intelligent civilizations know better than to broadcast their location because of threats out there colonizing them they're're like, we know what happens. Yeah. Okay. Interesting. So other civilizations out there might avoid reaching out because they might be thinking. And also they might not know about other threats.

They might just be paranoid about other threats. Because if they're also wondering about there's got to be other life out there, we should make contact. there's gotta be other life out there. We should make, uh, we should make contact. They might be thinking we can't possibly be the first ones to make contact, AKA whoever made contact before us. And we never heard from them again.

Something must've happened. So like we know better than to try because we're scared of the other people who tried and weren't successful. They could also just in general, be wary of potential threats. And so they're just keeping quiet um which also probes then come into play which are basically like big robotic machines that do the job for them and basically patrol the galaxy for new life so there's a theory

that extraterrestrials could have just created monitors and they're always watching the universe uh through these machines and and maybe these machines are um i don't know taken out other civilizations and that could be what's causing the great silence or the um the great filter it's like maybe they're just no maybe they're just taking out other civilizations one by one taking out threats and so they could just or everyone could just be neutral and aware of other life and like you know they just don't want to be a part of it so the next thing that's also very similar to this is the thought that there could be a quote super predator civilization oh i don't like that and basically they are the first extraterrestrial intelligent life form to have gotten here therefore they're the most advanced and i guess

to keep threats down if they find out there's any other intelligent life they just fucking knock them out and that would explain the great silence because everyone's taken out before they even have a chance to make contact the sub theory to that is maybe, because maybe we are the earliest or most advanced and maybe we're the super predator and don't know it yet. That sounds like some dumb shit we would do. Sounds like destroy everyone else. Sounds like Will Smith is going to make a movie about it in two years. So another one is simply,

we're just not advanced enough in our technology and they are making signals to us and we are just not detecting them. We're either, we have less advanced technology or, you know, either the technology is too primitive, like maybe they don't use radio waves, or their signals could be so advanced that we, they could be hitting us right in the fucking face and we wouldn't even know it right where like they could be so advanced that to us maybe it just sounds like random ambient noise and we're just ignoring it or maybe we're so focused on radio waves that we're not paying attention to the right frequency or um this was interesting

to me was that their technology could be so advanced we wouldn't be able to comprehend it i saw one quote where someone referred to us as like maybe we're just ants on an anthill and we're completely under and we're completely unaware of the 10 lane super highway next to us now that oh that gave me goose camp that which is true because like what if they're what if their version of communication is like weather and like every time it rains, those are aliens literally fucking talking to us. And we're like, ooh, clouds. Oh, it's chilly and gloomy out. I wonder if aliens exist.

Now we can eat corn. It's like, that's not the point. Okay. So that kind of segues pretty perfectly into one of my last theories, which is that other life is actually out there watching us from afar and interacting with us at all times. We're just not aware of it. So either they're interacting or they're one or there could be 100% even just like looking through a window for the most part.

And they're like, look, don't touch. We know you're there and you don't know we're there and we're observing you. So this is called the zoo hypothesis, which is basically that we are a zoo and that there is life smarter and more advanced than us out there that knows better than to interfere with us because they don't want to disturb our natural evolution and development. Oh, how nice. One of those theories is that we're supposed to actually graduate to a much more advanced version. And if they get in our way, we might destroy ourselves before that gets to happen. Well, I think that might be already happening. So if you want to step in, honestly, I invite you to.

Please rain bananas on us or whatever. Just help a little. On top of the zoo hypothesis where they're just watching us and they don't get in the way there's a spin-off theory called the laboratory hypothesis which is that humanity either either was or is part of a galactic lab experiment and that's freaky and the solar system is actually just a lab, and the aliens are scientists, and that's why we can't hear anything because we're alone. And even though it makes sense that there should be other things going on in other labs, we can't hear them. And that's why every day when I want to get my cheese for breakfast, I have to walk through all

these hallways and turn left and turn right and turn left until I reach my little piece of cheese. We're just on the hamster wheel. I'm just a little rat. Which also brings me to what I think is going to be your favorite theory, the holographic universe theory. Oh, boy. Or the planetarium hypothesis, which is that we are in a... Simulation.

A.K.A. the universe is empty and there's no wonder why we can't make contact with anyone because no other because no other life has been uploaded to the simulation that is so creepy so the idea is that extraterrestrial life is out there and they created us in a simulation which is why we can't reach them because it's like when the sims look at you and go you're like no ladder for you goodbye that's exactly it um and then i said earlier the water world hypothesis that basically most intelligent life out there is dolphins is water animals yeah dolphins uh and so if most of them are water animals i think what was his name andrew oh adam i forgot his name i thought i had in my notes i must have deleted it somewhere um but the the scientist who's all about the water world hypothesis um if you happen to listen to

this podcast i'm sorry i didn't mention your name. But basically he said like he kind of leaned into the rare earth hypothesis where like we are special and the conditions that got – the conditions and circumstances of our planet actually did help us evolve better than other life out there. Because just the way that our planet is set up, it's weird that for a water world or a planet with so much water on it, we ended up knowing how to make fire and have opposable thumbs. And like it is kind of actually a one of a kind fluke. And so most creatures that come out of planets like ours are aquatic animals. Interesting. in that realm intelligent life uh is most often other creatures that like the notion of making contact with other worlds is just like not even part of their comprehension so i'll end now on saying that humanity has been around for 200 000 years but we've barely scratched the surface in space exploration just to give you an, we've only had for 130 years, keep in mind the world

or the whole universe is like 14 billion years old. For 130 years, we've had radio transmissions. Yikes, that's freaky. For 100 years, we've had radio telescopes to try and actually see

if other people are out there. And we only found out about planets outside of our solar system younger than us. Wait, really? In the 1990s, we found. No way. So exoplanets are planets outside of our solar system. And our first exoplanet we found was in the mid-90s.

Are you serious? We are older than the discovery of exoplanets. Okay. So we are older than the discovery of exoplanets okay so we are like and that's planets in our galaxy that we only found out about like 30 years ago so we know fucking nothing so we really we have to be the most primitive compared to like the compared to the chance and the likelihood that there are civilizations out there, I mean, there is a range where, like, there is a chance that the oldest, most advanced civilization out there is 14 billion years old. And we discovered planets outside of our solar system 30 years ago.

So, like, we have to be the oldest grandpa at the party, you know? That's embarrassing. So we are still hopeful that we'll detect something. We just launched NASA's James Webb Space Telescope, which is apparently the most powerful space telescope so far. There's also the Perseverance rover on Mars, who is currently collecting samples, and he'll come back in like a decade, and maybe we'll find something there

um seti that organization that looks for the signals their biggest challenge currently is searching for signals in such a vast universe with limited resources that are not advanced enough so um even with their best technology sending a signal currently from us if we send a signal on earth the farthest it will broadcast is only 0.3 light years which apparently is not even 10 of the distance to our nearest star so we're like the idea of us sending a message it's really just kind of not it's going in the spam folder really it's not going anywhere is going to the spam folder and so basically their hope is eventually the fingers crossed that if someone wants to reach out to us specifically they will send a very powerful and direct signal that we will be able to pick up on despite not having top of the line

technology compared to what they probably have um also if when that happens we have to make sure that we are listening to the right frequencies at the right range uh the right region at the right time like it's very touch and go if we would ever actually know even if there was a signal coming our way because it might be so different than what we know holy shit and right now we have only one piece of evidence that intelligent life exists and that's us and for all we know we could be a total fluke and that is the fermi paradox what the fuck i had no idea. No idea. Before we get back into it, I have to tell you, I just went to go grab some water. And I did my thing that I love me so much.

I, here's what happened. Tell me. i here's what happened we tell me we know we love sleep me and we know how i love sleep me loves gifts as a love we love sleep them yeah we do so honestly i don't know if this was sleep me i don't know if this was three years ago me i don't know because i've told everyone here before that one thing i like to do is send future me presents um and like I'll just pick a random day like you know how they'll say like when do you want to send this today's two two two did you send yourself something I'm obvious I sent myself something and I didn't know remember at the beginning you said oh I wish I'd sent myself a gift I knew myself well enough to know that I needed to do it like years ago I guess you should have known yourself today well enough to know that i needed to do it like years ago i guess you should have known yourself today well enough to know you did do it what is it it's chocolate covered strawberries

and it says happy two two two two two future m you've been waiting you've been waiting a long time for today look at all you've accomplished up until now i'm so proud of you love past m m what the fuck i no one knows how to woo me quite like me you've said it before and you'll say it again and it'll always be true but okay here's my question is there a way to figure out when you sent that do you remember sending it not even a little bit you should check because because i wonder it just it would it would be knowing me it was years ago it would be so heartwarming to know like oh when you say look how far you've come and if it was like years ago even i wouldn't have known how far exactly

that's so sweet i am so nice that's so nice thing i ever heard i really i'm telling you everybody that like i honestly think it probably was years ago because what i like to do when i'm bored like if i especially when like i like if i ever got a paycheck and i had some like extra money i would intentionally go on like an edible arrangements or like a gift site and where they would show like the calendar and it's like when do you want the scent I would close my eyes and just pick a day and so it was like completely random serious it was completely random to even me and it would be such a surprise you know I always sign it to future m love past m but this one I did a whole message of like I'm so proud of you honestly m at the beginning of

the show you were like i wish i had sent myself something and lit and past you was like just wait i'm my own little we're gonna get it on camera that is what passed me dreamed of absolutely your past you was like wait till the camera is fucking recording look at this look at this stupid fucking box xo xo xo is full on hot pink valentine's for anyone who's listening it is hopping valentine with gold accent like it is look if you could marry yourself i would have done it years ago just telling me that i don't just did you say just telling me that just telling everyone that like if you're not dating yourself you can't possibly

date anyone else you have to love you first and i certainly do that's very deep anyway i hope you enjoyed astrophysics you know all right i need to get some wine i'm literally drinking this whole bottle oops um okay here's the thing i oh no no you did not do it christine oh shit your whole room is white as snow i mean never mind not anymore i just spilled all over my office see i'm smitten with who i am in the past with like i know how to really treat myself nobody needs to know how i feel about myself past christine really loves to fuck with future Christine. Past Christine has never said, look how far you've come because past Christine is like, I don't want to know. I'm going to close my eyes. Past Christine was like, I already know where we are, girl. And it's a carpet full of wine.

I guess they're like, past Christine is a little bit like there's only up from here, but we don't know how far up. Is it on the carpet? You got to do the push twist and release. Honestly, I'm very impressed with myself because it is all over this light gray Kelly Clarkson office chair that I bought from Wayfair.com. Kelly. But I put on this maroon shirt and I wiped all the wine off it with my shirt. shirt and I wiped all the see I wiped all the wine off it with my shirt it's almost like past Christine knew that future Christine was going to need a wine colored shirt and look at the shirt it says blame it on mercury retrograde I feel like that person that shirt ripped off our mercury retrograde shirt I'm just somebody one of our listeners gave it to me so I don't know where

it's from but it served me well in this very moment but I will say too when I wish I were more like you well full stop I know I know just take that and like swallow it and keep it in your brain but also you know that's true already but I also wish I were more like you because when I'm like I want something for myself I'm like but i want it right now i don't have like oh i do that too nice oh okay okay well okay there is the limit does not exist in terms of gifts to myself like i get future me gifts i get present me gifts i i i give past me gifts because sometimes i like to like heal my inner child and i do things that don't really make sense but like wait that's so cute okay okay wait i like that so it's like I'll buy myself chocolate strawberries now but I'll also just send myself some in the future yeah I'm sure I'm sure I did a two-for-one situation with this and like past me ate real good at night you know okay that makes me feel better because I'm like if I

were like buying myself chocolate covered strawberries I'd be like but I'm hungry now okay so you do both now that I can get behind look there I'm just saying it's a good it's a it's honestly the best thing I could have done for my relationship with myself no I love it and I'm okay I know we're going kind of long but I have a question so like when did you first start doing that because I feel like that's such a kind self-love thing to do and I don't have many of those things and I feel like a lot of us could use a tip like that like when did you first start I it had to have been on it okay well this is like really like it's about to get sad but I think I started doing it when I was in my last relationship, which, as you know, was. Excellent. Fucking bonkers.

Really horrific and awful. And so I was, I mean, this is about to sound really sad, but we're in a happy place now and it's fine. And we're just saying things and it doesn't have to come with an awe. But I think I was like, well, this person isn't treating me right. So I'll treat myself right. So. Damn. But good for you. I feel like a lot of people, myself included, have thought this person isn't treating me right.

I guess I deserve it. It started out really sad, though, I think, because when I would treat myself like they couldn't know because I would, like, quote, get in trouble that I was like, I didn't spend the money on them or whatever, blah, blah, blah. So I think it used to be like a secret little sneaky thing. And then now I like, I didn't spend the money on them or whatever, blah, blah, blah. So I think it used to be like a secret little sneaky thing. And then now I like, I see, I kept it. And I'm like, no, I should be proud that I like love me before anyone else. Absolutely. You should. I tell Allison all the time that I like love me the most, but like, not, not like a bad way, but like, if I don't love me, there's no way I'm going able to love on you and so like I give myself presents I get Allison presents everyone wins you know I'm so happy for you and I'm I'm honestly I felt so bad that I hadn't gotten you something for two two two and so I'm

so glad you got you something for two two two look I think on and to answer the question again I think part of me started doing it too because I felt kind of like a time traveler because i've always signed it as past a two future m from past m that part tracks 110 not surprised about that anyway are we surprised this is a long episode no no but wow and let's let's keep it all in though i feel like we've only no i love it we've done nothing but just bond i think it's really special and i i feel like um you're you've taught all of us a thing or two about self-love, you know? Before we get into murder, if past you, or if it could be present you, and you're talking about future you, if you had to get yourself a present right now that you know, like, in six months on a completely random date would just blow your mind, what would you

get yourself? Oh, me? Yeah, it doesn't have to be crazy it's something like this like if you could order something tonight to surprise yourself what would it be um that's such a nice question because you should everyone anyone who's listening this is your homework go on a website get yourself a thing and don't let it show up pick up make someone else pick the date but like let them pick the calendar date and you don't even know when it's coming and oh my gosh you know what's so weird is like i know i'm like all like being like all crunchy granola right now but it always happens to be on days where like i really need it and so like surprised at all i feel like that's how the universe works yeah and every time i'm just like damn like i knew me better than i

even thought that's so sweet yeah and honestly to answer your question i have no idea i've never thought about it i have no idea so i should probably do some introspection that's your homework i want to hear next week on the next episode what you got yourself as a surprise so cute i don't know i have no idea i have no idea i will think about it Think about it while we're talking about the complete opposite spectrum of topics, which is just awful and sad and gloomy. Okay, perfect. I don't know how else to segue into please tell me horrible stories as we're all about self-love right now. Hey, let's all love ourselves anyway.

Oh, that's the cutest thing. And you should give yourself a little letter like I give myself. Now, that's nice. I honestly, like, I sometimes tease you for that. Like, oh, your past self, your future self. But, like, the fact that you said today on the episode, like, oh, I thought I would have given, like, sent myself something. And then you did. So cute.

I'm telling you, I know me better than I even realize. But I know future me better than I know present me is the thing. But that's so nice to be known, you know, by yourself. You don't even realize. You know what? As much as I love you or I love my parents or I love Allison, I have to deal with myself for the rest of my life. That's exactly right. Everyone else has a chance to leave.

We all pity you for that, by the way. I know. Everyone else has a chance of leaving. I'm stuck with me., by the way. I know. Everyone else has a chance of leaving. I'm stuck with me. You're stuck. So I better treat me right, you know? Yeah. I mean, I think we can all learn a thing or two from you.

But all right. So today I have for you a part two. And it's been a long time since we recorded part one. Yeah. I don't even know what part one was. Yeah. So I will tell you. Part one. God god it was weeks

ago now uh part one was the so the whole story is the elan school which is that abusive as a hell school okay i'm gonna be honest i almost cheated on you and i almost watched the documentary you were talking about with this but i didn't want to find out anything that you were going to end up telling me so i have it saved in my list but i did not watch it well thank you for saving it because there's only a bit more but once it's done you really should watch it um but thank you for for saving it what was it called again so other people can watch it uh so the show the movie or documentary, I don't know why I said it so weird. I think it was on Prime or something.

Yeah, it's called The Last Stop. Yes. And it is on Amazon Prime, as Em said. And it's about this school. If you haven't listened to the last part, you probably should because it describes the whole background of the school and all the people involved um but it's basically this kind of reform school in maine and all sorts of kind of fucked up stuff is going on here we haven't gotten to really like the main story yet but um they had the last thing i talked about was basically how they had this thing called primal scream therapy where you would just like scream bloody

murder and try to get out all your feelings oh it was i mean it was bad it was like there was not a single rule that you couldn't avoid breaking without breaking a different rule like you can't you can't look up but you can't look down but you can't sit but you can't stand but you can't sleep but you can't be awake like everything was so wild. It was like you can't talk to people, but if you're quiet, then you're in trouble. It's like it's – There was even some – it felt like you're not supposed to date or be interested, but also if you're not interested, then that's a problem. But if you're a prude, then you're – Yeah, exactly.

And so there were a ton of – it's basically a lose-lose. And also like the punishments were like if you do that, then like other people have the freedom to like beat the crap out of you or something it was like like if you bother someone they have the right to hit you or something crazy like that i don't even remember that part i feel like i i either you did tell me there was physical abuse or i am already primed to where we're getting there. Maybe that's what it is. Yeah. So either it's been already said or it's coming up. But yes, you're completely right.

There is definitely physical abuse involved. So they had these encounter groups. They had this physical or this primal scream therapy. And they had these rules called guilt. And if you went against guilt, there were repercussions. rules called guilt. And if you went against guilt, there were repercussions. And I wrote, I think I already read the whole list of things that included guilt, which are the things you were mentioning, talking too quietly, talking too loudly, talking too much, not enough, reading or writing, speaking without permission, not eating, eating too much, rolling your eyes, like there were just a bajillion different things. And you were basically it's a lose lose, like you were screwed. So that was the

last thing I had read. And so there's a whole list, I said in the last episode, if you want the whole list, there's like 45 things on it. So I'm not going to reread it. But if you were caught doing a guilt, which is one of these bullet points, by staff or students who were listed as strength students, which is like when you were older or like you graduated from like a non-strength to a strength. If you were caught by any of those people, you were going to be punished. Punished. Yep. So staff would make the teens write down their own guilt. And so you would have to basically tell on yourself.

Like you would write down your own sins. Right. This is where I said it felt very Scientology because it's like you're owning up to things. Yes. Yes. You're being forced into like admitting faults for punishment. It's so weird. You're like blackmailing yourself, basically.

Like in NXIVM almost. I don't know if you remember NXIVM. But yeah, like, so it's sort of like you are writing your own blackmail. So basically they would have you write your darkest thoughts, fears, and worries, and then that would be weaponized against you. So these were often written on the clipboards of these strength students. And you'd usually have to write one guilt every day. And if you didn't have a guilt that day, then that was your guilt that you didn't have a guilt that day.

So isn't that wild? Like you're supposed to feel bad that you don't feel bad that you don't feel bad. Like you didn't do anything wrong so that's wrong yeah literally as i said earlier like you're in trouble for not like no you couldn't not break a rule without breaking another rule of like you're in trouble for not being in trouble what yes yeah it's a lose-lose like you cannot win so one way that you were punished for your guilt was via what they called learning experiences uh which came in all shapes and sizes and all levels of inventiveness which the word inventiveness is so uncomfortable to me in this kind of context because i'm like i don't like when people get

creative with things like punishment oh fair enough yeah with your stories about like alcatraz and all these different places every time i hear like inventive punishment, I'm like, I don't. It's also like, it's very interesting because, um, what was it called? Learning something. Learning experiences. Yeah. Cause so in there's, um, there's a few like fundamentalist groups I follow where like their punishment is called like training or like, or it's like not even like punishment

later. called like training or like or it's like not even like punishment later but so in duggar worlds one of the things that like fascinates me about them is that there's um different types it's like raising your kids is called training them which is like very punishment based disciplinary based where it's like i'm training you to obey and so like it's like the their way of taking the word learn or the concept of education always seems to come with threats yes yeah and i'm only comparing you know two fringe belief systems to each other not saying they're the same but it's it's just a weird it's interesting that it's common across all very in my opinion fucked up beliefs no i totally agree and i mean the phrase the word training is what they use in like the army you know so it's like to break somebody yeah right like they shouldn't go hand in hand you would think with like

raising a child but i guess that's how it is um yeah, they had these learning experiences. So some examples of this inventive punishment included the following. Split risks. And I know it already sounds bad. So those who tried to or planned to escape from Elon were deemed split risks. So whether you literally tried to run or you just looked out the window in a forlorn way and they decided you looked like you were trying to run away. One of the punishments was that you were given shoes without laces and forced to wear bright yellow shirts and skimpy pink shorts. OK, so there's like at the time it was very emasculating. It was emasculating.

Exactly. And that that kind of does come down to a lot of this um a lot of shame a lot of exactly like fully shame-based stuff um if you attempted to escape on multiple occasions your poison was a pink rabbit suit uh you wouldn't have any shoes and you'd wear leg shackles um and basically like you said the point of the punishment was to humiliate the student and restrict their movement so there were also costumes uh in addition to this bunny suit that was another form of humiliation they would force them to wear a costume that embodied the guilt they had committed for example every morning a girl called jenn, who had a crush on one of the guys, was forced to wear a whore costume. Yeah.

Oh, my God. As if a bunch of teenagers don't all have a crush on someone. Like, what are you talking about? Also, like, again, I don't mean to, like, direct this to other fringe extreme groups, but, like, that seems very based in purity culture no it is right like it's very fitting i think so yeah so she had to wear this quote-unquote whore costume and got up in front of the whole house and quote-unquote dance like she was a whore yeah and she had to do that every morning in like assembly basically yeah also like that's so like like i know this is like not the main problem here but like imagine you're that age though and it probably felt like the main problem

at the time that your crush is your crush knows you had a crush and is this is because of you like and you happen to tell one friend or you wrote about it in a journal and someone read it or whatever it may be. And now it's just on display and you're being humiliated for it. In front of your crush. In front of the crush. As a kid, that's the worst part of this whole thing. Really? Like fucking embarrassing.

Imagine the trust trauma of not being able to tell your own friends you have a crush. Absolutely. Or even trusting yourself to write it in a journal or like feel it or act on it yeah exactly um another kid was dressed up as a robot because they were deemed an emotional robot so some of them are very direct like direct costumes also we don't know what the situation was that kid might have been you know those might have been real psychological symptoms to pay attention to oh absolutely and the kid could have been like neurodivergent in some way or i mean it and a lot of these a lot of these kids were you know had were there because of

quote-unquote behavioral problems so we don't know why we don't know what the background was but one other kid was thought to be infantile so they were made to wear a diaper over their clothes. One girl, this is pretty wild, one girl had syphilis, so they made her wear a crown of bloody tampons. Which, like, what? Okay. Yeah, what does that mean? But also, I don't want to know. That doesn't necessarily correlate, but I guess someone thought it was a great idea.

One guy suggested in morning meeting that they should get a house dog. He was like, I think it would be really cool for us to get like a therapy dog, like a house dog. So they decided he would be the house dog. What? And they turned him into a dog. He was only allowed to communicate by barking. They made him walk around on all fours and wear a collar and a leash um so i feel like i feel like that that was farther down the road where

like the i don't want to say where the logic escapes people because this is already not rational but i feel like i feel like they at least in a, in a sick person's mind, who's doing this to people. I feel like there was like some fucked up, like one way thinking. Yeah. It was like a direct correlation. There was no like, but the dog thing is like,

so, so he didn't do anything wrong. And now it was just like a weird, like, I feel like they're getting bored and it's getting more extreme for like extreme sick entertainment and like nonsensical. Like, like okay he said we should get a dog so now he's a dog like what like i like looking at the cloud so now i'm the sky like what yeah that makes no fucking sense okay exactly so it was strange um but so they basically like anytime they wanted

anytime they wanted to call somebody dumb or say they had a stupid idea, they just humiliated them in some way. So there was another punishment called shot down. And shot down duty was for people who smiled without permission, God forbid. Which, by the way, like, well, whatever. I'm not even going to go there. But so smiling without permission would lead you to shot down duty um which means you had to do chores around the school like mopping floors cleaning toilets and washing dishes while wearing a dunce cap um there was a punishment called signs and that meant that some

students were forced to wear signs for days uh sometimes for weeks which spelled out their problems and guilts so i mean basically like a scarlet letter situation. Or even like basically like if you're a list of someone's guilts, I mean, you might as well just slap like someone's personal diary entry on their chest. Yeah, like crushes or whatever on them. And so at morning meeting, you'd have to stand up and read out your sign. And people were welcome to like confront you about the sign you were wearing. So I'm going to read some of them here.

They're just mortifying. So here's one. I'm Scott the hospital tot. I find it hard to see that I have guilt and it's killing me. I don't even know what that means. Hickory dickory dock. Responsible I am not. I fell asleep like a little sheep.

Ask me why I'm a dummy. Oh, wow. I am not. I fell asleep like a little sheep. Ask me why I'm a dummy. Okay. Oh, wow. So like, okay. I think like other kids are making these up too. I was going to say this sounds like a, like a kindergartner was trying to write a joke or something. Here's one.

I'm a pussy and can't express my feelings. Oh, that's wait. I dare I ask what was that person dressed like? Oh no, but that they were just wearing the sign. Oh, okay. They didn't have a costume. I was like, yo, that's just doubly mortifying as a teenager. Maybe a tampon crown, but no.

I think the costumes were a separate thing. Here's one that's not good. All I have to look forward to is getting raped in prison oh my god yeah yeah uh please ask me why i swear okay i mean i'll wear that one that one's fine that one's okay please confront me as to why i have so little self-control that i've become a blob. Oh, that was to an overweight kid. Oh, no. Please ask me why I'm a whore. And that's, that was a girl who held hands with a boy when the lights went out for five seconds. And so she was, but like, he fucking wasn't right. No, I don't believe so. So there you go. So here's, so I know you're in the middle of this, but here's my question though.

Was there, to your knowledge, ever a like shining teacher's pet? Because what the fuck was that guy doing? Like, how do you get away with not being, I feel like every single person 24-7 had a sign on them or was dressed in a costume. I feel like there was no,

quote, normally dressed my thought happy kid my thought is it's sort of like the prefect thing from harry potter where like it must have been some of the upper level kids who were the um strengths who were enacting the punishment on others i imagine that's the only way that you could be climbing the ranks or be successful is that like you were playing the system and like yeah and that's why a lot of the kids in the interview or in the interviews in the um docuseries said the same thing of like i only went along with it because it was the only way to survive and not be also eaten if it's like i mean this feels like lord of the flies that it's like

the kids controlling the kids but what is that psychology experiment is it the stanford experiment where like yeah they just let people experiment they just let people play the role of a cop or like a corrections officer and the other half played inmates and like it was just shocking how quickly the people in control just like got so fucking violent and aggressive for no reason like i feel like that's happening here where it's like you gave the kids who are desperate for acceptance you gave half of them a dose of power and now like yeah you give them power and then you say like if you reject the power then you get punished and it's like yeah okay of course you're gonna play into it and of course you're gonna take on that role and so that definitely happened a lot.

So my only thought about like teachers, pet type kids were the, probably the ones who were following the rules and doling out punishment, you know, along with the others. That's, that's my guess. But yeah,

so that was the last one. Please ask me why I'm a whore was the last one for the signs. There was another punishment for the signs. There was another punishment called the corner. And according to a survivor whose username was deleted, but this is on Reddit, children who tried to rebel or be free thinking were thrown into an isolation room where they had to stay for months at a time. They had to sleep at night on a dirty mattress on the floor of the isolation room. The mattress was brought to them at midnight and they were woken up around 7 a.m. Throughout the room,

they had to be sitting up straight facing the wall. If they weren't, they'd be beaten up. They could only urinate or defecate in a bucket in the room, a bucket which would sometimes be emptied onto their head. Yeah. Oh my God. So, like, pure and utter abuse.

No ifs, ands, or buts about it. They also would dole out spanking. I mean, not too much to explain about this. They would have the teenager bend over while each student at the facility was forced to spank them with a paddle and then there was something called electric sauce and that was when a concoction of garbage cigarettes mustard dirty water ketchup rotten food urine and poop would be poured over your head

and you were not allowed to clean it up until someone of authority gave you permission. So you just had to like suffer through it until someone said it was okay to go shower. This also feels very much like Sylvia Likens. Yes. Yes. It was like all the kids. They were like either I punish you or I'm going to get punished. So like it was just like everyone against each other for survival. No, that's 100% right. It's like, it's like, how much blame do you place on other kids? Because

it's like, they're being manipulated to perpetrating it. At what point are you the abuser? Yes, like just doing it for self preservationpreservation and also the psychological uh trauma that must happen being one of those people who's also participating in the abuse and it's like knows that you're hurting somebody but you're just desperate to not be the in the spotlight for a second terrible terrible terrible terrible so there was another one called general meetings and this was sort of like the encounter groups but escalated so if you disobeyed a rule a general meeting would be called by the staff and that person would be put in front of all the students then a broomstick would be placed at the foot of

the student who had broken a rule about four inches in front of their toes and once the words get your feelings off were shouted the students would sprint at full speed toward the student behind the broom, all the while screaming in that student's face. And they were forced to berate that resident, shouting verbal abuse just inches away from their face at the top of their lungs. So that's fun. Jeez. And let's see. The ring. This was probably the worst punishment of all of them.

For the ring, students would gather in a circle and the bully, a.k.a. the person who needed punishing, the person who committed the guilt, would have to fight against another person that they were guaranteed to lose against. They had boxing gloves and a helmet. So if the person the bully was fighting against got tired, there would be several other students to step in. So basically you versus the school in a fighting ring. Yeah, everyone. And so you'd be beaten to the ground as fellow students would cheer, like fuck him up, waste the little bitch beat his ass this is

part of the documented stuff people would scream and if your tactic were to not fight at all sometimes that would make it worse because then people would they would get angry and try to make it even more of a punishment on you um so now this is a rewind, but we're going all the way back to Phil Williams, who I mentioned last episode, who had died of basically an aneurysm at the school, and his sister had gotten a call being like, oh, your brother has passed away from this aneurysm, and it was really shocking and confusing. Well, it turns out he had participated in the ring, the punishment, before being sent to the hospital. And there was a survivor named Matt Hoffman who actually remembered what had happened. He had witnessed the whole thing.

And if you remember from last episode, I had mentioned that Pam, who's Phil's brother, had gotten a random call from a guy named Mark Bitz. phil's brother had gotten a random call from a guy named mark bits and he said he yeah he was like oh you don't know me but i know your brother passed away and i have information about how he died and it was not just from a plain old aneurysm and yeah so pam was like totally blindsided and mark was like i have a story for you so okay so mark had been contacted by matt who was the one that had seen phil in the ring basically when he was getting going through this punishment so uh he said he wanted to find justice for phil because quote i could have been that kid oh yeah so matt told mark he had a story and he said the

story of phil just collapsing because of a brain aneurysm is not what happened at all clearly matt wanted this off his chest, and he was like, I need to tell somebody about it, and so he chose Mark to call and tell him about it. Matt had discovered via message board that someone with the username DavBets wrote that on the Christmas weekend of 1982,

Phil was forced to go three rounds in the boxing ring before he went unconscious and started vomiting profusely. Phil was left on the floor for an hour before given any medical attention. And when Matt Hoffman read this news, he couldn't believe it. He needed more people to know about this if it's really what happened. Quote, I was like, you've got to be kidding me. Go to the FBI. So Ann Passion, who goes by Ann Bowen now, was Phil's department head at the time he died. She told the Sun Journal that Phil was a good kid, a fun kid who was doing the program pretty well. Everyone liked Phil. And the days after Christmas, one evening after dinner, Phil complained about not feeling well because he had a headache.

And staff thought he was manipulating the system. And because he said he had a headache and staff decided he was manipulating the system, he was thrown into the ring. So he was punished just for having a headache, basically. Which, like, very, very weird foreshadowing. Right? Right. basically which like very very weird foreshadowing right right that his head was hurting i mean anyway okay he was up against two to three teenagers but never fought back and ann remembers that he was defeated he was getting the shit beat out of him so much so she couldn't watch and after he was collected from lying on the floor he was brought into a dark office and ann was ordered to guard the door and when the staff member wasn't doing anything to help phil and got up from her post with the intention of telling the

staff member that phil needed something to ease his headache but the staff member snapped he asked me what the hell was i doing getting up from the chair without permission and told me that he would take care of it when he got a chance to she said this was a staff member this was an adult he continued joking around again and laughing i went back down and sat down in the chair this was then followed by sounds of a bunch of kicking around coming from the office she remembers so i opened the door and i said phil and he didn't answer and i see him flopping around on the floor and i screamed out phil needs help twice eventually staff not an ambulance took him away he never returned after this happened i didn't think about phil not that i'm a bad person i didn't think about phil because i closed my mind off it was so traumatic sure i've

never dealt with anything like this to this very day that was like the worst day of my life yeah and again like we talked about that too of the psychological trauma of being involved in doling out punishment without yeah because you don't have a choice and there's that i honestly like obviously i've never been in that situation, but I can totally empathize with, you know, or at least sympathize with the fact of like, oh, I just shut my brain down. Like I couldn't think about it because like I didn't need to have my own

fucking panic attack and then get in trouble for it. Yeah. Because like you're in survival mode yourself. Like you don't want to be punished. I mean, what are you going to do? Yeah. So a woman called Laura Alemang, who was known as Lori Tufts at the time, went to school at Elan from 1981 to 1985.

And she was also there when Phil died. And she has the image of him being beaten for 10 minutes straight and not fighting back once. She said he kept putting his hands up above his head. He was doing defensive moves. If you didn't fight back, they'd keep you in there longer. I don't remember exactly how it happened, but eventually he hit the floor. Ugh, I hate. I'm sorry.

This is really fucking horrible. I remember him going into convulsions. I remember him spasming, asking what's going on, and they pushed everybody back at that time. She said, I will always remember Phil Williams' name. When a kid goes into convulsions in front of you i remember phil because i remember his curly hair and i remember he used to have headaches all the time he always had his head down on the table oh my god it's awful and like god forbid like if you were someone who had seizures or something and like you had like or like a heart condition or something

at this school like i know with confidence they were not giving you medicine or taking you to the doctor or if anything they would use it as your guilt and they would like be like go for the heart go for you know like strobe lights in front of someone's eyes i don't know. Yeah. They would use it as a weapon. A weakness. Right. Exactly. Oh, God. It's beyond fucked up. A staff member who has chosen to remain anonymous remembers Phil as the short fella who'd often be sent into the ring. He did not know Phil had died this way until way later. Even Phil Williams' death certificate wasn't wholly truthful. The doctor, who had refused to comment, didn't fill key portions of the certificate, including whether or not an autopsy was performed. So this went all the way to the end.

People were still covering up for this place. I was going to say, I don't know if you know the information or if I need to be reminded, but why were doctors friends with the owners of the school and everything? Why were they covering up for him? I don't totally know. I don't know why an autopsy would be fudged. I mean, I imagine that this guy who, like, somehow swindled people to let their children be here, I'm sure he like had connections or something had connections or somehow tricked people into like oh don't tell anyone i mean

whatever right the fact that this place was open for decades without any sort of oversight makes me think like yeah they had their ways um but i'm not totally positive uh but so the school made such an effort to conceal what had happened to ph Phil hours before he died that he wasn't even rushed off in an ambulance. He was escorted quietly in a car. And the staff member commented, it was uncommon that students would go to the hospital, but it happened. Late at night, a house driver would take them. You have to understand that in the 80s, Elan was losing a lot of credibility and they were doing whatever they could to maintain revenue. So it was events like this, which led to Elan closing in 2011. So it was only 11.

Whoa. I know. It was only 11 years ago that this place shut down. And was it that horrible the whole time? Yep. Pretty much. Okay. Okay. Pretty much. At least... Thank you for your honesty. Yeah. There may have been ups and downs, but there was never like, oh, finally, it's healthy and safe. There was evidently no teaching being done at the school. There was no time, obviously. I don't know where they would have found the time to actually do classes. And nearly everyone who attended were traumatically terrorized

just being students there. So the death of Phil Williams Jr. wasn't the only murder linked to the school, believe it or not. Probably not that hard to believe. But a student named Michael Skakel, who was a Kennedy cousin, and an Alon, remember how expensive this fucking place was too. People were paying for this treatment. Can you imagine being like, I mean, anybody, but like a Kennedy in the public eye or something and like your kids going here?

Like how did that, how did they not yank him out immediately? How did they not sue this school? I don't know. They thought this is the way to treat their behavioral issues. Okay. So Michael Skakel, a Kennedy cousin and Elan alum, murdered a young girl called Martha Moxley. I don't know if you know the name, but it's a very famous murder case. And that was somewhat linked to Elan, but that's a totally different story.

So that was also a very highly publicized case related to the school. So social media and Internet activism on Facebook, Tumblr, Reddit and other sites is what finally brought survivors together and helped with the takedown of basically this fucking torture chamber, which then officially closed April 1st of 2011. And so, Elan's executive director, Sharon Terry, commented, the school has been the target of harsh and false attacks spread over the internet with the avowed purpose of forcing the school to close. Wow. Big fucking whoop. So, Catherine Whitehead, who's the founder of the Community Alliance for the Safe and Ethical Treatment of Youth, was grateful for the power of the internet, despite whatever the fuck Sharon was saying. She said, the internet has been absolutely critical because survivors are spread out across the U.S. They get sent to a program and then they have to go home. When you connect to

other program survivors, you recognize that this is a large-scale problem, not an individual program's problem. That has been critical in bringing people together. It's an incredibly effective organizing tool. Which you have to think, like, a lot of this stuff probably did not get fixed until the internet. Oh, no. Because how would you know other people are dealing with this and it's not just you or it's not just a couple people you know yeah they weren't fixing it unless there was a fear of like getting canceled yes like exactly exactly so not even just the students connecting with each other but also the threat of like we have power because we can tell people about it i in a i mean i to be a fly

on the wall of two students who went through this for years, reconnecting years later and being able to talk about the deprogramming they must be having to go through would be fascinating. I mean, I wouldn't want to, you know, I mean that in the most genuine way. I don't want to be like, oh, I'd love to exploit these people and hear their stories. No, no, but i totally agree to know like like to be able to finally bond outside of that world with someone who gets it would i can't even imagine how powerful that would be too i was about to say it must be really powerful to know like hey i'm not gaslighting myself this really happened um and i'm not the only one who experienced it so as for for Phil Williams Jr.'s family, a police investigation into his death was finally launched in March of 2016.

And I don't know whether the case has closed since the latest article about it was written, which was January 2017. And since then, the case was still active. But Phil Williams Jr.'s sister, Since then, the case was still active. Okay. But Phil William Jr.'s sister, Pam Newell, commented around that time that, quote, each day that the case is open, I have more and more hope. I'm never giving up hope on Phil. I just really think he should have some justice.

They should not have put him in a ring with his head problems. They should not have put any kid in a ring. They just should not. If that was me putting a child in the ring, I would go to jail. Come on now. Why is there any debate about it? Let's go. R line them up move them out men oh my god i like her let's go but it's so true it's like if i ever thought are you kidding even potentially endangering a child you better be fucking kidding me are you kidding like in what planet is that okay you suddenly give them tens of thousands of dollars and it's okay that they're treating kids this way it makes no fucking sense um so yeah the documentary is called the last stop uh it's on youtube and amazon prime if

you're interested it's it's it takes a deep dive it's obviously pretty dark but it's not it's pretty much all we've talked about here. Yeah. And it's survivors who talk about their experiences. It's pretty cool to hear them talk about it, you know, first person and explain what happened and kind of see where they are now. It's not all sunshine and roses. Like some of the students who went through this are like, hey, I've been fucked up for a really long time, and I'm still trying to pull my way out of it. So I don't I don't know how people can fully recover from totally years of that experience. Exactly. So it's not all like, oh, come up in story. It's like, you know, people are still dealing with the aftermath, obviously. But it's a really great docuseries.

I recommend it. It's very powerful. And on the website, which is elan.school, that's E-L-A-N. This was once the official Elan school domain, but it has now been reclaimed by survivors who share their experiences as well as one survivor called joe who draws cartoons to describe what life was like there so wow yeah so basically the the school's website has been taken over by survivors and is now just people describing their experiences um on the website uh joe draws cartoons of what it's like and yeah that's the story so even though phil died of you know a casual brain aneurysm not yeah uh-huh uh he was in this he was a kid who experienced a

lot of headaches and then he was um put in the ring as a punishment and was beaten severely and died as a cause as a result of that so very fucking tragic but it is nice to see that people are you know finally his family's being taken seriously and like it's actually being somewhat looked into so yeah that's the story of the elan school pretty fucked up but there you. Wow. I can't believe it was around only 10 years ago or so. It's weird, right? Wild. 2011. I mean, it's gross.

Wow. 2011. That was like right around the time we were graduating. So there's people like our age who've had to deal with that. Yeah. I was very much in college at that point point which is like i was older than the kids at this place yeah and it is cool too in the documentary because you can see kids who or you can see adults now who were there in the 70s 80s and you can see it uh people who were there as

kids in the 2000s so you can kind of hear experiences from like decades apart at the same school. And it doesn't sound great no matter what decade they were there, to be honest with you. Oh, my God. Wow. Thank you for, thank you also for making that a two-parter. I feel bad that mine wasn't more of a two-parter because it was definitely long. It was good.

I mean, mine, I remember when I did it last week was like wildly long. So this is probably for the best. What, you said your baby was crying earlier. Is she finally asleep yet, you think? You know, for now. Oh. Everything's temporary in my life. Even my sanity.

What is your. Oh, especially my sanity. What, like, what kind of hours of sleep are you getting? Consistent hours. Last night I got three and a half. Yeah, it's not great. I'll be honest with you. It's actually really bad.

And I feel like I want to say, hey, does anyone have tips? But I know even just by Googling that the tips come in by like the thousands. And so I'm hesitant to say that i i will say i've taken the i'm hoping this is just a temporary like four month sleep regression thing and she's gonna go back to because for a while there she was sleeping six hours at a time then she was sleeping like a monster i was so proud of her so nice and i was like i am so fucking lucky and she would sleep like six hours and then like wake up to eat and then like sleep three more hours and I was like this I can handle now it's like every 90 minutes she's like I would like to eat six ounces of food now

wow good morning I'm hungry and so I don't know I'm'm like, everyone's like, oh, just let them like soothe themselves back to sleep. And I'm like, yeah, but then she decides she's starving and she won't sleep. So anyway, I don't know. I mean, I've said this before, but when it came to like buying a house, getting married, like having pets, I have always appreciated you being the guinea pig. What do I do that for? I don't know. I think I'm just too impatient to wait for anyone else. I'm like, I'll do it. I'll do it. I have only patience for any big milestone where I have to adjust to change. And because of you, I feel like I know exactly

how to buy a house. I know exactly how to get married. I know exactly how to have pets. I certainly know that when my baby turns four months old to not be very happy. To say, Christine, I'm going out of town. Something might happen. Could you watch my baby turns four months old to not be very happy to say Christine I'm going out of town could you watch my baby for a few weeks don't ask how old the baby is four months is nothing don't even think about it it's fine don't even think about it although I will say um you might not I want to correct you you might not know how to do it but you will know how not to do it so I feel like that's a powerful lesson I'm teaching you how not to do things but you will know how not to do it so i feel like that's a powerful lesson i'm teaching you how not to do things so i will write i'll give you my journal or whatever for for your future life

one day when i decided to take a big milestone just give me a list of everything you did and like one to ten how badly it went i'll just i'll go zero zero zero zero all of it is a zero i i really feel like a guinea pig i'm yeah also the oldest of my siblings i feel like everyone's just watching me like like like cringing every time i make a new turn um so hopefully hopefully i'm just the practice you know i'm the guinea pig i'm glad you volunteered i i don't know why i don't i don't know why i did it but i did it it's okay i'm proud of you for doing it is too late that's yeah you can't back out it's too late well good stories all around uh sad stories but um i gotta be honest my eyes are lingering over

here you go i'm so sorry i should have told you to eat that while we were recording you could i we both knew we would have gotten some nasty messages about the people who don't like the sound of chewing which is understandable by the way someone would have had a problem with it so i've just been okay will you go enjoy that thank you and you go buy yourself a present for a random future date how fun is that i love that idea why do you think i do it all the time it is so fun only a few things make me cry and i'm getting emotional about that the best part first of all How fun is that? I love that idea. Why do you think I do it all the time? It is so fun. Only a few things make me cry and I'm getting emotional about that. The best part, first of all, everything makes you cry.

Shut up. Second of all, it's also like the best part about getting yourself a gift is you know you're going to love it. Yes, I mean, you're right. There's no question. It's not like someone else got it for you and you're like, that not really my favorite flavor i would have gone with a different design it's the wrong flavor yeah right or something like it's like you know you know what you want it's it's it's the simple things baby i'm like so happy for you i'm gonna cry okay i gotta hang out because i'm gonna cry actually okay i'm gonna go do my homework and figure out

what i want in the future because i don't even know and everyone else by the way if you treat yourself to a random surprise in the future tag me when it arrives to your home do it and i'll i'll share it on my story because we want to know we need to advocate advocate for self-love share the podcast too or tag the podcast too because I feel like we could make that like a cool movement, you know? Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Self-love something. I feel like that could get X-rated pretty quickly.

Okay. Never mind. Self-love sexy time. And that's why we buy ourselves things because we all deserve it. And drink. Because we love ourselves sexy time