And That's Why We Drink - E270 A Gold-Dipped Pickle and the Empurrress

Episode Date: April 10, 2022

It's episode 270 and "hesitantly on board" is our M-O! First Em covers a story that sounds vaguely familiar (and Christine uncovers the truth later in the episode), the Palmer House Hotel in Minnesota. Then Christine brings us the second in her two part series on the Chess Board killer, Alexander Pichushkin. And don't forget to check out our new show Rituals on Spotify! Maybe it will even get you into cat tarot as much as it has Christine... and that's why we drink!

look at us go eva who eva who she's uh on vacay with her family right now she's visiting her home she's visiting but it's also saturday it's also saturday so we we wouldn't expect her to hang around here anyway but we are going solo today we are we're uh taking things off course i suppose we are already hurtling off a cliff uh 10 seconds later uh i was just telling christine a second ago that well we were talking about her wall, and I never realized that it was gold before. You've slept in this room, like, three times. Exactly.

My eyes are closed every time I'm in that room. Okay, that's fair. What are you talking about? It's a wallpaper that, from, like, anthropology, it was fucking expensive. I don't recommend, and it didn't even come pre-pasted. Well, it was etched in gold, so you tell me. But yes, it's shiny. It's, like, gold and and cream colored and it's like an

accent wall here's a good here's a good like um hmm like a little like if i were to wish ill will on you but like oh excellent but like in an ink here's the thing i never want to wish physical ill a physical ill will on anybody but if i'm ever mad at somebody i always wish like slight inconveniences on them and that explains a lot in my my day to day life. Thank you for finally admitting. I'm just powerful. But if I were to manifest or wish ill convenience on you, I hope one day, if deserved, that your child decides to draw on the walls and only on the one etched in gold. your child decides to draw on the walls and only on the one etched in gold. Well, you make it sound, I love it because you make it sound like I have a wall literally etched in gold. It is not etched in gold, but it is shiny. I mean, if you're on YouTube, take a look

at that wall and see if it's etched in gold or not. Exactly. And I also, I suddenly was getting all these TikTok followers and I was like, how did this happen? And then I remembered on an episode, I was like, I'm going to do like weird shit in my house on TikTok. And I still haven't done it. So I plan on it. And I guess we can add this dumb wall to the list. Yeah, here's the first one. I was saying it to you before and then I stopped myself because I thought like maybe it was worth documenting, which now in hindsight, no, it wasn't. But do you know that there

is a pickle place? You stopped right there. You said, did you know there's a pickle place? And they said, wait, let's record first. And I said, I already can promise the answers. I don't know whatever you're about to tell me. So, so anyway, go ahead. Five years of producing a podcast. And I still think most things are worth documenting on audio and they're just not. Um, but there's a, most things are worth documenting on audio and they're just not um but there's a there's a pickle place where you can like uh like you can have it dipped in anything and then like one of the options is a 24 karat pickle where you get a dipped in edible gold and that's like oh my god where is that oh i knew you were gonna ask and i don't remember that's something m would do i'd be like i would totally eat that although edible gold's kind of nasty to be honest i feel like i wouldn't want to eat that i feel like

it would hurt my tummy have you ever had a coolickle there's pretty good uh yes my step grandmother step grandma step step grandmama um you know pam she makes them pam looks like the exact person who would know how to whip up a cool. Right. I know. And my mom was still horrified about the whole incident, but I think they're great. I love cool.

It calls, but the, the gold really threw me off, but then this place also like wraps it in like cotton candy. I'm not into that. There's a pickle. I guess there's limits to what you can do with a pickle. And the list is very small.

I think I would agree. I guess some people don't, but how much is the gold pickle? Do we have any idea? limits to what you can do with a pickle and the list is very small i think i would agree i guess some people don't but how much is the gold pickle do we have any idea it was like 12 bucks which like in terms in terms of gold real cheap in terms of pickles real pricey real expensive in terms of like gimmicks not too bad i guess yeah and also shockingly at the store you know what they didn't have because like they had a one had a bunch of the options where, like, you take, you core out the pickle and have stuff in the pickle so you can eat the pickle with stuff in it. A filled pickle.

Yeah. And, like, of all the things that they had there, not a single peanut butter filled pickle. I was going to ask. Which, like, peanut butter and pickles are, like, a common combo. Common is maybe not the word I'd use, but I didn't say popular, but it is universally a polarizing topic on are you pro or anti. Anti. I know you're not asking me, but I am anti. I'm pro. I thought I'd be anti, but then my babysitter, when I was a kid, she was pregnant when she was watching me and had like the peanut butter pickle sandwich craving. And I was eight.

And so I was like the perfect demographic to not judge her. And so she was like, you have one. If I have one and I ate it and I was like, shit, this is actually not that bad on a sandwich. I feel like it's less terrifying. I'm just picturing like just chunks of peanut butter on a pickle and that's

gross, but the sandwich, I could see why that could work. But, um, it's the salty sweet thing. I mean, you can do it. Do you ever do like the peanuts and coke that's pretty good no but I think I only

learned about that I think from you or somebody like a couple years ago I hadn't even heard of that being a thing oh it's very good I mean when I was little my mom would cook up like ostrich yeah you're really not the person to compare food with okay try picturing coolicles showing up at my house and how my mother reacted to that with her mother-in-law showing up with a jar of it. The ostrich would come back to life and be like, what is that? Oh, it certainly did. Oh, I wanted to say a fun announcement we have, which is that we started a new podcast. Oh, my God. Yeah.

And we haven't been able to talk about it on the show. And I feel like and that so it's with Parcast. And before I did get a few dms being like isn't that's why you drink over i understand if it and i'm like no no no and people were very kind in asking but clearly like very concerned and no no no no this is just kind of a fun side project and the good news is we're hosting it but parcast um on spotify are doing a lot of the legwork as far as like they did the logo and doing the editing and like did a lot of the research so it's it's really cool because we get to kind of do the fun part of just telling stories and it's called rituals before I forget to name it yes it is fun it feels a little like getting to be divas in a way because like

like no offense but like all the grunt work is on other people it's very fun to just show up with a microphone and just like get to like see the notes and go for it and it's like kind of deep dives into things that we've like touched on in the past so it's um like occult stuff which obviously is one of our favorite topics in the world and um you know it's all sorts of spooky stuff, but it's they do, you know, tons of research and kind of pull out some really fun stuff for us to just chat about. And I actually I found I think the first person who's tweeted at us who had never heard of us before and found the podcast and was like really into it. And I know it was such a cool moment. And I think they live in Germany, too.

And I was like, this is so exciting. So it's called Rituals. It's on Spotify. I do have one request to everybody. Oh, my gosh. It's called Rituals. It's on Spotify. I do have one request to everybody. Oh. Well, you too, I guess. You can join in. But if you happen to listen and you do enjoy it, I would really request that you give it a little five star because I'm having a little bit of a complex about it being four point five stars out of five.

Christine, this is like the third time I've heard you talk about it. I can't get over it. I'm being really sensitive about it, and I'm sorry, and it doesn't really matter in the end because we love it, and I know a lot of you guys do,

but I don't know. If you want to throw out a rating, that would be really kind because I think a lot of people heard it and are like, who are these whack jobs on my Spotify feed, and it's us so well yeah and also uh thank you to parkast for reaching out and wanting to work with us that was it's such a

so cool it was it's also been a lot of fun they're more um in case you're wondering what like the format is it's more of a bite-sized version of and that's why we drink i guess the episodes are much shorter but it just kind of gives you like really good talking points um we wanted to make sure that we were as inclusive as possible we i i think we can now talk about how weirdly aggressive i was in all of our meetings where i was like i felt bad because i was like christine i'm gonna tell him again i'm gonna tell him again i was like you fucking go man i will back you up and, Christine, I'm going to tell them again. I'm going to tell them again. I was like, you fucking go, man. I will back you up. And not that they weren't going to be respectful, but I was just so overly cautious that if we were going to be talking about things like the occult, I didn't want to do it. People's spiritual identities, practices.

Right. And so we actually do have practicing witches on our research team. I was about to say my favorite moment was when Em was so nervous about like addressing it again. And I was like, no, listen, like you say it, it's your whatever, whatever. I mean, of course I'm like, you say it, but no, you were like nervous about it. And I was like, no, no, like it's important. You, you know, get your thoughts out there. And, uh, I see this guy keep like trying to raise his hand and I'm like, cause we're on this big zoom call and he keeps trying to like insert himself. And finally he's like's like oh i'm actually a practicing witch um

and he has his he's in like runs his own coven or isn't like is like the leader and he's doing research i don't know what the right term is but he's the one he was like i i don't know what the right term is for like being in charge of your own coven oh oh oh yeah he was like yeah i have my own coven and i you know and i was like oh you should have spoken a long time ago i know parkas was like oh don't worry we have spoken a long time ago. I know. Parcast was like, oh, don't worry. We have the right people researching who know what they're doing. And it was just such a comforting, awesome. And I've always known from previous shows that Parcast's research team was great.

But I was just weirdly paranoid because we were going into this with all of our meetings with them saying like, hey, our demographic is largely very open minded, very into spirituality, very into, you know, witchcraft, a lot of people practice, very diverse. Like if we are hoping that people will want to listen to another show of ours, like, and we don't get, we're not, you know, number one in charge of the research. Like I need to know that I can trust that it's in good hands. And so they have been so accommodating and so wonderful. And we have talked about so many fun things already. We talked about tarot, the history of tarot, which I had no idea about. I have something. Oh God. Look what I have. This is a tarot deck that

I just found on my way upstairs and it is the cat's eye tarot. Stop it. So I was going to ask you, what's your favorite episode that we've, because we've only recorded a few and they come out every Monday. But what's your favorite episode we've recorded, would you say? Do you have a favorite? I am partial to the Arthur Conan Doyle history because, just because of how much I am publicly in love with the story of Harry Houdini against the mediums so um to finally hear the a different side of it was was very interesting yes I loved those episodes too they're so fun to um let em regale me with the tales all over again and I think tarot was also one of my favorites too I got to tell

Christina about tarot we found out that it was basically like old antiquated mash. That was like where Tarot came from. Yeah, poor Eva came. We saw Eva last week when we were on tour and poor Eva had to sit there and listen to us tell her about the history of Tarot because the episode doesn't come out yet. It's also weird

for Eva to listen to rituals because she has nothing to do with it. And so it's weird for her to just be an active listener. It's very weird. Anyway. Okay. Sorry. So I have this cat's eye tarot.

I found it on the way upstairs because I was going to talk about how that was my favorite episode we've recorded and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, oh, how fun. I'll just pick a little card for him. So do you want to, I don't know how to best do this, but by the way, look at the backs of them. They have these cats. And I found this on the way upstairs and I was like, I forgot.

I bought this with you. I think Eva was there too. It was when we went to one of those witchy shops in Kentucky when you were visiting me. And I bought a Ouija board because you still have mine. And it's going to stay here too, Christine. Okay. My first gut instinct, which is so weird, was the eighth from the left. Okay.

This left or this left? This one. Yes. Okay. This left or this left? The eighth. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. Oh, ooh la la.

What is it? Is it V la la. What is it? Is it Vixen? What is it? The Empress. The Empress. The Empress. Hey, I didn't even put that together. Also, the picture is like a cat in a wedding dress or something.

Oh, no, it's just fluffy. It's just the Aristocats, basically, is what it looks like. The Empress. Okay. is what it looks like the empress okay as i'm looking for the the description i just want to point out too like after doing that uh uh episode m brought me a wonderful gift and it was a uh a uh an original tear like a circular rider weight original tarot deck it's so it was the one we had like just talked about on yeah and i've gotten just really excited about tarot deck it's so it was the one we had like just talked about on yeah and i've gotten just really excited about tarot again um oh my god one of them is called the hanged kitty i don't like

that oh here we go keywords abundance protection the world of mystery does not beckon for this plush long-haired mother cat meow her world is one of comfort and abundance okay sensual and lusty in her appetites nurturing and protective of her kittens she's perfectly at home in her safe secure world uh a pampered queen okay we'll say amen put the emojis of the like sparkles around that a pampered queen um and i will say it was upside down which i know means something and i don't know what it means is it i don't know but means not a pampered queen's the opposite of a pampered queen um maybe i'm not lusty like I thought I was. Oh, man. That's a bummer. But yeah, so in a reading it says, it's in reference to an aspect of your life that's currently focused on mothering.

Not necessarily you mothering, but like a mother figure or somebody who feels like a mother figure in your life. Well, my mom's birthday is this week. Oh, hey. That's true. Okay. And you did on tour, you did a lot of like. I made a few venues shout happy birthday to my mother. It was very sweet.

And also the last line just says, this card suggests a nice, warm, fuzzy feeling of satisfaction. Like a kitten safely curled up in the protective shadow of its mom. That's very sweet. Oh, that's nice. And the the next one is emperor which i kind of wish you had gotten that because that would have been very funny but i also love a pampered queen so well if allison were here she would just be still on the floor laughing i just feel the eye roll from wherever she is right now i think she thinks i'm the biggest diva in the world because uh i don't know i like to think in a lot of aspects of my life i'm pretty laid back and chill but then allison who has taken on the role of like being responsible

but being responsible whatever that means of being the the priority person that i focus all my love and attention on and i demand the same back and i'm like hi i would i would like love now i would like attention please this card is making sense now i'm seeing it yeah i'm like hi i would i would like love now i would like attention please this card is making sense now i'm seeing it yeah i'm seeing it and you know what actually that makes a little sense because she's actually been gone i haven't seen her since we left for our own show and then she's not coming back till the end of april right when we leave again so we're going like a month without seeing each other and i have been very needy because she's not around to give me attention great glad I'm on zoom now hi excellent meow a pampered queen um I'm really pleased about that so thank you for playing along with me but anyway that was my long away my long I love it is that

why you drink this week because you found a new deck of tarot? Yeah, I am. And I just found it a little paper bag on the stairs. It felt kind of like a sign. Like, I don't even remember it being there before. And now it's there. And we just released, you know, hopefully that episode is coming out soon. And I'm newly into tarot, into tarot. Yeah.

Tarot. Thanks to you and your narration. Thank you. All right. Well, is that it then? we get going unless you have more uh more exciting uh kitty kitty news to share not kitty i know hmm the last three days i'll say why i drink i'm drinking water by the way today me too a hydrated queen I wish I wish I had like Fiji or something so I could be the pampered queen but um well alas neither of us do so well I gotta be honest since I came back I don't know if I don't

know what like my environment I don't know what's causing this but um no but since i since we came back i don't know if it's just because like i don't have a lot of time to get things done before we're back on the road or something i don't know if my brain chemistry has changed for the better but in the last three days i think i've been more productive than i have in like 10 years what really i've been so fucking productive. Yeah. And you and I have done some like shockingly productive things over the past five years that we did not ever expect ourselves to do. So that's impressive.

It has felt like, and like, by the way, I know I am currently not on Adderall because if you listen back to the last episode, I'm currently trying to figure out. What a doozy that episode was. It has not even come out yet. As of recording, it comes out what a doozy that episode was has not even come out yet uh as well as of recording it comes out in a few hours so we're gonna be bombarded with also uh if people are writing out to me and i'm not responding my instagram also got shut down and i don't know why so that's the whole thing right you're in jail on there i'm in jail i posted a picture of

allison like just standing and they were like we have removed your content you have broken community guidelines and now I can't log back on so you can't even log in I can't even log in anymore that explains a lot I keep tagging you and things oh and then I tried to tag em in something on a comment and it was like you may not do this and I was like I can't even mention em in this comment you're like really in jail and I reached out to like our manager and we have like people that work in pr that i was like does anyone know anyone on instagram that can fix this because like one i have sponsors that like i said i would post things for and like i can't super fucking awkward uh i like just want to like repost people coming to our live shows i haven't been able to do that

once so like it's just been a real headache so um then they were like well we don't we don't we don't know instagram stopped taking active requests so geez so basically i'm just stuck not having an instagram now but um how did i get there i don't remember anyway i'm being oh so for people wondering i know i'm not currently take i was on adderall and then they made me take it, uh, to stop taking it until I figure out my heart stuff. Cause they don't want to give me recreational speed until they know that my irregular high rate heartbeat is okay. Um, so I don't, I don't know what's causing it, but I've just been so stinking productive in the last three days. I scheduled like 15 different appointments and stuff.

Like I had, like i figured out all my health insurance stuff i have been getting stuff done to my car i went to the post office i have been cooking and showering every day and waking up at 8 a.m what i know and when i have ordered food delivered it's been healthy every time also love that like em's like i'm waking up at 8 a.m and i'm like really i feel like if i go back to our text chain like there are just times where i'm like em is a wall but i guess because i've been so it's because i've been doing so much others like i've been focusing on getting so many things done i haven't even been near my phone like so i've been like also maybe it's because i'm not on instagram like maybe because like i'm not using

social media. I don't know. I'm also kidding because I totally didn't respond to like three of your texts last night. But I wanted to also ask you, this is something you do not have to tell me, but are you like, are you on any new medications for the heart thing or anything? Like it's not, it couldn't be like a side effect of that. Wow. it couldn't be like a side effect of that wow um yesterday i got an echocardiogram and tomorrow i get um fit for a heart monitor and then uh and that's currently it they up my propranolol while i'm on tour but i mean you have seen me backstage on shows where like i still think

i'm gonna die no matter how medicated i am that That's correct. Um, so it's currently, there's a lot of band-aids while they monitor it, but they don't really know what to do yet. Well, I'm proud of you for being productive. That's very exciting. I know. I love that feeling when that happens on the rare occasion that it happens. Me too. I also have been getting, I, here's the crazy thing. Uh, I have, I don't know what happened, but I spent like six hours on this yesterday. I can send it to you later if you'd like to see my chaos, but I came out with a whole Excel sheet of all of my medical history, all of the doctors that I have, here's the categories that I have for each doctor. I have the doctor, their address and contact information, notes about my medical

history with them, including dates of appointments. I have my family history that's relevant to them listed, things I need to address for my next appointment, current medications, current diagnoses, and my next appointment coming up. Also my last appointment that I had with them and any notes that they gave me during that appointment. And I did it for like 10 different doctors. And then I have like a list of all these other doctors I still need to call and their phone numbers. And anyway. Oh yeah. Well, I found a tarot deck and opened it up. So you know what? I think we're even. Anyway, sorry for making this even longer than necessary. I'm very proud of you. That's very impressive.

Thank you. My mental health is like for once at 100. So it's very weird. Oh, shit. It'll come crashing down, I'm sure. Okay. Anyway, back on to ghosts because we've been talking for like 25 minutes. This is a very juicy one. But here my problem christine i swear i've covered

this before i swear i've covered this before i like when this happens because it gives a glimpse into like our kind of mandela effect approach each of us like the way we see the world yeah that's dramatic that's so dramatic i don't know why but i kind of loved it but um I I looked everywhere I looked through all of the episode lists that we have on our website by the way you can use that sometime if you ever want to because I worked really hard on it and uh it's nowhere I but I know not only do I know that I've read this research and it seemed familiar but it got to a point where in the research I was guessing what was going to happen next and it did I watched different tv shows to get more information on it and I had already seen the episodes and I was guessing what was going to happen next, and it did. I watched different TV shows to get more information on it,

and I had already seen the episodes, and I know I wouldn't have watched them if it weren't for research. So, like, I've definitely covered this before, and I can't find it anywhere. So maybe I covered it on, like, a whining crime or – Okay, well, what is it? So this is the Palmer House Hotel hotel in sock center minnesota i've heard of palmer but i think did you do a different palmer i've certainly done this palmer i just don't know where and i feel

like you're gonna recognize some of the things i say too because there were things that i saw in my research where then i like would write like a side note of like a something to comment when I got to that point in the story and I was like I've written this comment before so like I've definitely covered if anyone knows what episode number it is or where I've done this before can you please let me know because I feel like I'm losing my mind and it's and it's not it's not on our episode list weird okay I don't I recognize the name but i don't know if that's just like some other place i've heard of or not so maybe if you start and i recognize it i'll tell you okay also by the way it was i looked through like my own documents on

my computer to see if i've covered it before and apparently i never fucking saved the document so it was a real pain in the ass having to redo all these notes that i know i've done i don't it might be on a hard drive somewhere okay so this is the palmer house hotel and i would like to start with a quote my favorite quote from this episode of ghost adventures where zach bagans before he uh started investigating he saw a rainbow and he quoted i don't think we're hunting leprechauns on this lockdown and some pa was like please make a note to cut that out in the final edit and then a different pa was like we will certainly be putting it in we have to put it in um that's good okay so this is in uh it's a historic hotel in sock center Center, Minnesota. It is on the National Register of Historic Places since 1982. It is still in business as a hotel, restaurant, and pub,

which it has been since the beginning. So it all started in 1863. That's how long this building's been here. So it was originally called the Sauk Center House, and it was a boarding house and low-key a brothel. Oh, ooh la la. I think it was Lustful Kitty Cat. No, Hardworking Kitty Cat, who did not deserve whatever treatment they were given.

Yeah, Lustful probably the other way around. Yeah, the exact opposite. What's the card that was upside down, the reversed? Maybe that's what it is. I don't know. What was it? Oh, don't know. Maybe. The, uh, what was it? Where was it? Oh,

brothel. Of course. This was also the city's first version of a hotel, or I say version of a hotel cause it was a boarding house and brothel, but it was the first place in town that people stayed at. Um, four years later it was, uh,

bought out and it became known as the Minnesota house. And very quickly it changed owners again and again and eventually became the Apfeld House. I'm just thinking Minnesota, this could very well be a wine and crime thing. It might be. You know what I mean? I literally even checked our book.

I was like, did I write about this in our book? That would have been fun. It would have been. Spoiler alert, I'm so sorry. This did not make the book. But I was like,'s got to be somewhere uh and it wasn't our notes for our live show we did in minnesota either so it could very well have been on one of the episodes we did on their show maybe maybe i don't know it is minnesota so63 to uh i think within the first few years it changed a lot

and by the time it was called the app filled house and on june 26th and 1900 the building burned down oh no i don't know if it was the app filled house at the time that it burned down or if it had just been bought by someone else and then it burned down. It was kind of confusing to follow how many owners this building had. But at any rate, it burned down in 1900 and locals were allegedly happy that it burned down because it was such a stain on the town as a brothel and like a saloon and all that. So there was also rumors that the fire was actually intentional. So the town didn't have to deal with it anymore. Yeah.

If you're happy about a fire, you're going to be a suspect, I imagine. And I will say there were no injuries in the fire. So maybe. Well, that's good. That helped people not seem suspicious when they were happy, you know. So there was that fire in 1900, which is the most famous of them all, but there were a few other fires on the property. So in 1873, there was a fire when it was a barn from a cigar sitting in a hay bale. Oh boy. Um, another time was in 1885.

Uh, it's an unknown cause for how it happened, but there was a fire. And then in 1905, there was another fire where apparently eight staff members and boarders all jumped from the window. And I think they jumped from the window onto a trampoline and survived because after all those fires, still no deaths. Oh, good. Okay, okay, okay, okay.

I mean, traumatizing, but at least I'm glad they survived. Yes. So in 1901, so right after it was burned down, I guess the city was like, do we rebuild? Or like, what do we do with this property? And I saw something where like the city was like offering money to someone, like a stipend or something to buy out the property. I don't totally know what happened. But at any rate, R.L. Palmer in 1901 ended up buying the burnt out building and rebuilding and lived there with his wife, Christina.

Hey. And their kids, Hazel and Carlisle. And then also Christina's mom and brother, Renata and Alex. Oh my God, you really just threw me for a loop there. I was like, that, I should remember that. That is bananas. So the reason that they decided to buy it out is they were like, well, let's make it another boarding house. Or let's at least make it a hotel for traveling

salesmen. Because this property is only a block from the train station. So this is about to be hippin, hoppin, and happenin. That's right. And it was also was also fun fact one of the first buildings in the state maybe the country to have indoor plumbing and indoor and outdoor electricity so if you were a traveling salesman and you wanted the ritzy experience you'd want to go to the place with electricity and toilets and right next to the train if you're a pampered princess or pampered i wouldn't go anywhere else, and that's a fact. That's right. They also had a really large lobby for parlor games.

They had a restaurant. They had a pub. Basically, they were trying to turn it into, like, a very fancy one-stop shop where if you were in town for business, the only place you needed to be was there. I'm sure I would not have been welcome there, but it sounds like a fun time. You know? Like, I would bring my cat, Taro, for the parlor game and be like step aside they would take one look at my female voice and my short hair and there'd be a shootout or something i don't know and i'd be holding the tarot cards like wait no we're just trying to have some fun um so yeah so they ended up having a big lobby so that way not only uh travelers would come here

but also it was so fancy and one of the only places again with plumbing and electricity but even just townspeople would gather there so it was kind of just a place that everyone was bustling so some people think that the palmer uh, remember it burned down and then they rebuilt. So some people think that the Palmer house is actually sitting on the original foundations from the sock center house, which might explain some of the ghosts that like, see, so fun fact, um, Arthur, no, not Arthur author, uh, God, this is so stupid. Cause he's a famous person.

Author Sinclair Lewis see this is the kind of this is this is the kind of thing um if you're not into it maybe check out rituals because it's so polished over there while we record I know polished is not a word you ever thought you'd associate with our names or voices but while we are recording we have a wonderful producer Jonathan who will literally just be in the background and then hop in and be like hey Christine uh actually it's pronounced this way or can you can you guys just say that line one more time so we have like a clue and it's so he'll interrupt us and be like um yeah you're gonna have to do that part all over but in such a nice way that like it doesn't feel like we're being we're definitely being like coached in a way that we shouldn't have to be after five years of podcasting but

like it's really nice to have somebody uh who's kind of just like ding dong um it's very nice i guess they're they must be editing on the fly for him to be like i know this isn't gonna fucking land so or he can just take one listen and be like be like, yeah, start over. Take two. Yeah, this is not up to our caliber. That's his author, not Arthur. I can read that. Let's do it again. So author Sinclair Lewis was actually, so fun fact,

Sock Center was his boyhood hometown. Is the sock like a sock on your foot? Pronounced like sock, spelled S-A-U-u-k oh that's not what i pictured okay and i think center is also the s-e-n-t-r-e bullshit n sorry c-e-n-t oh oh center like central like oh beautiful like a shoppy like a shop shopay yeah you get it okay i get it it's like instead of bakery they're going like patisserie and i'm like okay relax now i'm just throwing french around left and right so anyway sock center but i'm sure it was like something much fancier at one time and I know it's pronounced sock center because at one point there was a diner there or it's now called Nick's diner. But at one point it was a different restaurant and they called it the sock hop. Now see that I would. Okay. I'm so glad you said that

because as you were telling me about how to actually spell sock, I was like, there's so much room for fun nicknames for fun punny restaurants i'm so pleased about this well apparently nick bought him out wait yeah wait well what the heck nick nick was like i'd rather put my name up there yeah he was like i want something much more creative than sock hop how about nick's diner um normally so sinclair lewis not only is Sock Center his childhood hometown but he actually worked at the Palmer Hotel he was a night clerk and a bellboy there he apparently got quote hired and fired multiple times lol um and allegedly I only saw this in one place but allegedly he had a secret hideaway that he'd run off to in the basement to write poems.

That sounds like something I would do and get fired for my job at the library because I was hiding and writing poems. I wonder why he was getting fired. I wonder if like we're trying to just turn it into a creative thing of like, oh, he was just working so hard on being a famous author one day. I don't know. It's kind of a cute little, I like it. Well, here's the thing. As we go on to the ghosts, you're going to find out that if he had a secret hideaway in the basement to write poems, you will realize no one would have ever wanted to be in the basement alone. So I see. So I don't know how true that is. Um, fun fact though, he did use this hotel as inspiration for the minimashy house minimashy house in his 1920 novel novel what's wrong with me in his 1920 novel called main street and the whole town in that book is

apparently also inspired by sock center how fun which is if i were to write a book that was exclusively about one town because we just wrote a book about many towns. I would absolutely use Fredericksburg as my inspiration. And you would name the restaurant? The Sock Hop. Hmm. Fred. You would name it Fred's Diner. I'm trying to think of a fun,

Fredericksburg is like kind of. Oh, Fredericksburgers. That's true. We have seen many a Fredericksburger on a menu in our town. Oh, okay. Wow, so I'm not that clever. All right, I'll work on it. We'll shop it, we'llburg on a menu in our town. Oh, okay. Wow. So I'm not that clever.

All right. I'll work on it. We'll shop it. We'll shop it. We'll shop it. Yeah. So fun fact, the Minimashi House, I hope I'm saying that right, Minimashi House was inspired by the Palmer Hotel. So originally the building had 25 to 30 guest rooms and one shared bathroom.

Super. I'm already in hell. But then at the Palmer house, I guess was getting older. It started looking rough. Um, during prohibition liquor was sold here in the basement. So that kept up some revenue.

I think, um, I think that also caused rumors that there's tunnels under the ground. Could also be if there was a hideaway in the basement sinclair lewis was using maybe it went down to the tunnels oh maybe and they'd pass him while he's writing a poem like with their rum running like passing with liquor bootleg and he's now that's a crossover i'm just writing a haiku don't mind me it's uh the the real juxtaposition between good and evil, I guess. Beautiful, right? In 1916, the hotel's new owners expanded the building. And so I think it might have still only had one bathroom at the time.

I hope not, if you're really going to put that much money into renovating. And then time traveling to 1974, the Palmer House Hotel started growing even bigger because two men decided that they were going to restore it. And during this time, this was one of the first mentions of the hotel having ghosts. Because one of the two men who decided to restore it, he started writing about spirits being there. So I do want to say that was in 1974 that apparently we have the first documented ghosts. But I am going to tell a story in a couple bullets here that implies there were ghosts earlier than that.

So in 1993, the building was remodeled again with its new owners at the time and still current owners, as far as I know. In 1993, it was bought by the Freeze family, and they remodeled the whole place to go down from like 30 rooms down to 19 much bigger rooms, and they all had their own individual bathrooms. So thank you for making that call. All right, now M-per-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er That's how we feel most of the time on this show. Okay, so then in 2002, the Palmer House once again stood empty and threatened to be condemned. I feel like I gave the wrong year because the Freeze family has had it since the 90s, and they have still been there. Hmm.

I think that was, I used the wrong date, and then because I thought it's in 2002, I moved it to a different place. Excuse me. Sorry. Before the 90s, it once stood different place. Excuse me. Sorry. Before the nineties, it once stood empty and was threatened to be condemned. And then in 1993, the freeze family came in and remodeled it. Blah,

blah, blah, blah, blah. Now it has bathrooms. Now it has bathrooms. So, uh,

income, Brett and Kelly freeze. And apparently they bought it originally with another couple, but then they ended up backing out or selling their share um so now it's just brett and kelly freeze and uh they've had the place ever since they host paranormal events here and they even held their first lecture here in 2008 and it seems like kelly is much more attached than brett because anytime there has been an interview or media like any press about this house I think I've seen Brett once and I saw Kelly the entire time or all the quotes are from her

right um and she feels very committed to sticking with this house no matter how dark and sinister it gets so I personally feel like there's a bit of an attachment issue happening there um because things get really fucking scary and she is not moving she is very committed to staying um so like i said earlier there's no documented deaths inside this building but there are some rumored deaths on the property as well as reports of death nearby that could be contributing to the ghosts um one is that all the way back in the early 18 i think it was 1890 uh someone bought the house who he was originally a soldier and he was a part of like one of the bloodier battles that ended up being um his what was his name cassius sprague was his name. Whoa. And I guess he was a soldier that was involved in one of the bloodiest battles.

Uh, and he was also involved in the worst mass execution in our history where 38 native Americans were hanged. Yeah. Um, as in, he was like one of the perpetrators of this oh he was not on the right side of history no oh yikes okay um there are rumors if you watch the dead files episode he may or may not be the

evil spirit that resides here wow um and that's all we really know about him except that he ended up selling the house to the palmers later and making a bunch of money on it. But yeah, not a good guy. And I think the idea is that because he just came with such negative energy when he bought the house, maybe some of that energy stayed. I don't totally know. Or maybe he died there and he was so evil in real life that he's now his evil is haunting the house today.

Yeah. died there and he was so evil in real life that he's now his evil is haunting the house today yeah maybe he was attached to it like kelly is and and came back maybe after maybe especially because if that were in the 1890s uh there are hints of ghosts being there no way even before then so i know i said earlier that in 1974 is the first documented ghost stories but there is rumors that there were ghosts at least into the set into the 1870s cool because there was one guy that worked there um who was terrified of the ghosts at the hotel according allegedly so wow there so in theory there were ghosts even then which is wild because what would a ghost look like in 1870 like were they haunting you exactly the same or have they gotten more creative in the last 200 years or what interesting like is it the same

thing now when we see like an old-timey ghost we see them a lot of times like from the 1800s so yeah so like what were they seeing yeah like what what was the old timey was like the i don't know and i will never know this but who was the oldest who was the very first apparition ever seen and what did that person look like like a pirate like i like i don't know a little pilgrim i don't know there were definitely people well before pilgrim i know my shitty american education but um in my head if i were going to be haunted in america i feel like i don't know natives i suppose i don't know i don't know well anyway oh go ahead it also makes me wonder if like um spirits across different cultures are the same you know what i mean like do they haunt in the same way like maybe

certain cultures perceive spirits and afterlife in a certain way and that like manifests in their own yeah we we see it differently i don't know well also remember there was that chunk of england where like or i don't know if it was specifically England, but I feel like there was a time and a place where there was a huge, it was just all reports of like just random knocking on walls. That was like the whole thing. Like I think it was during like the Jeff, the talking mongoose era. I feel like I went through an era, like a part. I mean, that's where you drink where every story I covered was from the same time period in the same location and they were all the same type of haunts and so now i'm like were they faking it or was that a cultural thing i don't know maybe um okay anyway uh

yeah so in 1870 the guy that worked uh at the hotel who was scared of the ghosts even then this is where the story gets pretty fucked up and this is where i knew that i have done the notes before because i made the same comments that i'm about to make okay so in 1870 this guy who worked there he was also a freed slave named mose and he lived on the property and also worked on the property he He was terrified of the ghosts that were in this hotel. And the story I heard, not the story I have yet to translate for you, the story I heard is that some of the local people

who knew he was scared of ghosts dressed up like ghosts and chased him out of the hotel one day as a prank. Wow, how hilarious. The way I'm taking it, which is a complete guess and there is no proof, but I have a feeling that that is a very whitewashed version of there were racist people who didn't like a freed slave there

and they dressed up in white. Do you catch my drift? White sheets that have holes in the eyes. And chased him out of the building it sounds like that is a very plausible thing that could have happened yeah at the very least um there are parallels that cannot be ignored is what i would say so that is the truth and so also that makes me wonder were there ghosts in the 1870s he was scared of or was this part of the story that got telephoned to us interesting yeah um anyway he

ended up running away and he was so scared to come back even which by the way like i know it was 1870 but he could see they were people dressed in sheets so he would know they weren't ghosts and be too scared to go back yeah and yet he was too scared to go back right that says something for sure yeah to a point where he chose instead to sleep outside in the cold and rain that night cool great and came back the next day very sick and died on the property so you tell me what happened nothing fucking good nothing good so um anyway that's it's a very different story than what I think happened. But what year was that? That was 1870.

It was five years after the Emancipation Proclamation. So you tell me. I'm not gonna because I don't have the authority to, but I don't like any of it. So I'll tell you that much and so in 1929 another death near the property was jason rosenberger uh which to me someone named jason in the 1920s is silly that is a weird combo feels like a millennial name. Jason. So he was a cop who was working next door. And one night, I guess while on the job, I guess he got confronted by someone. He ended up getting shot in his eye.

And the death feels like a cover up because they were saying it was like his like an accident on his end, like with his own gun. But like, I guess the bullet didn't match his gun or something. So it feels like a coverup. And also I feel like the 1920s in Minnesota, wasn't that like, that was like mobster territory, right? I feel like something could have happened.

I'm not sure. I really don't know much about Minnesota. Well, 1920s was prohibition, right? So I feel like there was definitely some shady stuff going on so I feel like something in Minnesota was happening with gangsters I don't know why we wouldn't know that but so anyway he ends up getting shot in the eye and then all of a sudden

his murder was completely covered up um and he died 500 feet from the property. And the last person to see him alive was a night clerk at the hotel. Jesus. Okay. In the 1950s, there was a man who allegedly hanged himself in the bar by jumping off of the pool table and he was found the next morning. And then, and this,

I think it was the seventies or eighties where another person allegedly died upstairs. When was the alleged hanging? The fifties. Okay. where another person allegedly died upstairs by suicide. When was the alleged hanging? The 50s. Okay. So those are the only deaths that we, that have circulated enough that they may or may not be true. And so now it's just the ghosts.

So when Brett and Kelly first bought the place, they were not local, so they didn't know the history of the building. They didn't even know the place might be haunted uh they only found out later when locals started telling them yeah this place is probably really fucking haunted interesting and they heard it after things had been happening to them but they hadn't said anything publicly and so then all these locals were kind of confirming that's telling too yeah so i would buy a house and be like this house is hella haunted let's buy it i would buy a brand a house and be like, this house is hella haunted. Let's buy it.

I would buy a brand new house and be like, there's hundreds of ghosts here. I know. So when they first got the place, they needed to do some like basic maintenance. So Kelly's father decided to stay there and do maintenance throughout the day and the night just to get things started for them. So he was staying at the hotel by himself and pretty much right away he started hearing quote someone roaming around upstairs right above uh rooms 18 and 19 uh who would have heavy footsteps pacing before it sounded like someone sat on the bed and to a point where he was convinced that kelly had rented other rooms out and didn't tell him oh you know and i feel like it's always so undersold or not undersold necessarily,

but it's so much scarier than it sounds to hear footsteps. Like growing up at my dad's house, I constantly heard footsteps up and down the stairs, which were right outside my house, I mean, outside my bedroom. And there is something so petrifying about being like somebody is walking up the stairs toward my bedroom you know i'm like i remember i remember as a kid the first couple times i stayed home alone i was already on edge and i don't know what happened but the like wall of suitcases that we had all came crashing down by themselves no and for all i know something slipped or whatever but i remember thinking someone broke into this fucking house and my what am i gonna do i'm 12

that's the fear it's like it's it's either a real person or it's like some fucking ghost and it's like neither one is good yeah it's like which are you hoping is at that point so uh but yeah no there's really you're totally right there's something really uh eerie dark about knowing something if you feel completely like gaslit of like yes yes i know i'm hearing this i know i'm hearing this yes boy uh so one day uh they're working at the hotel and a stranger approaches Kelly and says that she had a dream of this place and that a man came to her and said it was time for his story to be told. Oh, boy. And basically she was weirdly descriptive about her dream and said that there was a body under the stairs. Oh, my God. and said that there was a body under the stairs.

Oh my God. So Kelly, I don't know, was open-minded enough that later that day, she went down to the stairs in the basement and used a spoon from the kitchen and started digging, and she found rib bones. No! She didn't get to find out if they were human or animal, but she went to go grab a box, or she went to go tell her husband or something basically when

she came back they were gone what she never found him again they were gone they were gone so i don't know if the ghosts like made them vanish because they finally rib i've been looking for that right did they like fade away because they'd finally been found and their story was told? Or did he like shove them back into the hiding place? Did he put them somewhere else? Especially if ghosts are known to like make things disappear and then show up in random spots. Imagine you just wake up and there's like a rib bone on your toilet. For God's sake, there's just like a rib in the hallway.

Yeah. What if you got ribs delivered and then he snuck one of the ribs onto your plate? Forget it. In the ribs. Okay, but my other thought is, you thought ghost. I was thinking, like, is somebody in the fucking tunnels? Oh, yeah. See, this is why I'm team ghost and you're team true crime.

I know. So, anyway, here are now just a list of all the things that people have experienced with ghosts. list of all the things that people have experienced with ghosts um by the way i also told that story first to maybe hint at like maybe she had disturbed remains you know sure okay or well to be fair he was like hey go find my remains right that's what i'm kind of thinking too i'm like did she do the right thing or the wrong thing i wonder well he said my story needs to be told. So I'm like. I feel like it just gave me more questions. Right.

Your story only became more muddled to me. Like because of all the potential rumored deaths we've heard of. Didn't know about ribs. No, didn't. Maybe it was like a prohibition thing. Like someone got killed in the tunnels that are also may or may not be there i don't totally understand i don't know anyway as for all the ghost stuff it's a list my friends so people smell cigar smoke in one of the rooms they feel random breezes in

the middle of a room that doesn't have a draft spirits will show up in pictures furniture will move on its own uh sometimes people have seen it move by itself instead of just hearing it equipment malfunctions or drains its own batteries and will turn itself on and off including like audio recorders and cameras so if you're there to investigate it will just shut all your shit off which is like an investigator's worst nightmare oh yeah um i imagine that would not be ideal can you imagine you put in all the work to like research and set up and investigate that place? And then you go check all the footage and it's just a black screen and you're like, well, that was for nothing. I mean, as people who worked in TV, like that's a nightmare whether they're ghosts or not, you know?

Right. Yes, exactly. People get touched, stroked, poked, pinched, slapped, shoved, their hair yanked, snuggled, and people feel paralyzed. Ugh. As in they cannot move when they feel something dark is in the room with them. Okay. People have experienced overwhelming sadness and just started crying for no reason, have been, like, inconsolable. People have felt pressure on their chest and tightness.

Like they're having a hard time breathing. Like someone's sitting on their chest. One guy felt something cuddle him in bed and then run their fingertips on his chest. And as the fingertips were stroking his chest, he said it felt quote, like being shocked by an electric fence. What?

Oh, that's very intense. So it's like, uh, it's like the worst of both because you're getting cuddled and held while also being electrocuted. So like, and of course he said he felt paralyzed and couldn't get away.

Of course. Um, multiple people have felt something push on the back of their knees so they'll fall. Even on stairs. Oh, wait. That's not funny. That's not funny at all. No, no, no.

As we laugh. It's only funny now that I know they're okay, so it is a little funny. It's funny when we know it's not supposed to be funny. It's not funny. it's not supposed to be funny it's not it's not funny it's not funny and i'm not laughing although i will say it was like a really good prank in college i don't know why on the stairs not on the stairs oh yeah anywhere else i find it quite hilarious but the stairs is like a little much It was a little much. People have gotten straight up jumped by something. Oh, God. Not funny. That one's not funny.

No. Especially in the basement. Some people have potentially even been possessed. So in the Ghost Adventures episode, which is season. I knew that's where we were going. On Discovery Plus, it was season eight, episode four. But I don't know. I've had issues with

discovery plus having accurate episode numbers different numbers yeah so on discovery plus it's eight four uh they actually show the clip of that investigator who got possessed during their own right there i thought you were gonna say it was zb got possessed that's where i thought we were going no but they showed theB got possessed. That's where we were going. No, but they showed the clip and had the investigator on the show. Oh, and the investigator was very scared. I'm not kidding.

I'm a kid. Nick would have freaked me the fuck out if it were the middle of the night and this happened. The investigator was not blinking like wide eyes and kept muttering. You need to talk to me. The dogs are down here and I've got to take care of them. Oh, I just got goose camp.

It's even creepier when you realize that the Palmer's son, there's some mention on some sources that he used to take care of dogs down in the basement. Oh, Carlisle. Carlisle. They even so they talked to her and she said she felt like she could see it happening almost like an actual projection, but she couldn't control it at all. Oh, no. And then they bring her down to the basement where it happened. And then when they have like one of the meters next to her, it was a millimeter. When they had it anywhere near her, it started spiking and making that high pitch noise. And as they got closer and closer, it started getting like to be a higher and higher pitch.

And eventually they just handed her the machine and it was like off the fucking charts the whole time it wasn't just like a chirp it stayed on at a high pitch until they gave it back oh no um so it's almost like something is inside of her or stayed with her or like at least remembering around her yeah yikes i don't know they were into her energy i guess um what a nice pickup line energy and uh but yeah so she it was that was really fucking scary to be honest and yeah um the one that is evil in the basement is alleged well i don't know if it's the one that's evil in the basement but there is an evil one allegedly named raymond uh on dead files they called him skeleton face yikes and so they think he's the one that is jumping people so god kelly who owns the place

says that she's gotten jumped uh by raymond in the basement uh here's a quote it was like i could see somebody with a dark cape come up to me and in the next instant i had here's a quote. It was like, I could see somebody with a dark cape come up to me. And in the next instant, I had a hard time swallowing. I just felt a choking sensation around my neck, but I kept saying out loud, I'm not leaving. I'm not leaving. Oh, I'd be like, I'm leaving. Yeah. I'd be like, girl, I'm out. I'm out. I'm out. Um, Raymond girl, relax. I'm out of your hair. You can have this basement. Ray, it's time to go. Um, Ray, honey, take your rib. I'm out of your hair. You can have this basement. Ray, it's time to go. Ray, honey, take your rib. I'm not, I don't want it.

Uh, and so, uh, what was I going to say? Uh, Oh, and then on dead files, apparently the medium was also experiencing like she kept saying like he's trying to jump me and I'm not letting him, but he's trying to attack me like he did kelly oh geez um and then other people that they interviewed have also said that they felt like they were getting jumped by this thing like if you go to the basement you just don't know if you're going to get attacked like it feels like a man is attacking you like that at all at all at all people also have had mood swings especially the staff who have to be

there all the time. They get irritable with each other. People get nauseous. They have headaches. Sometimes they have flu-like symptoms that just come and go in that day. Kitchen items will move on their own. Trays will be found in different places. A mixing bowl flew 10 feet across the room.

In the bar, glasses will fly around. They have smashed on site, they you can hear clinking throughout the room a glass bottle has also exploded on its own and silverware always changes position or goes missing to a point where staff don't even put out silverware anymore or if they do it's right before people sit down wow they're like keep your eye on this yeah they like they're like they're like without question the civil war will always go missing or rearrange itself so weird and you know the other day my well this morning my stepdad came over and said you know we found one of your forks and spoons

in our driveway and i was like oh what like yeah we found one of your forks and spoons in our driveway and i'm like normally i mean not, but some might say, Oh, wow, how spooky. I say, Did you just drop it out of your purse? Well, Like your social security card? house and I guess sometimes decides she wants to take her snacks on the road. Now I can't seem to figure out what she was eating with a fork and a spoon in her car that then ended up in the driveway. But the only thing I can think of that you eat with a fork and a spoon is spaghetti. Have you had spaghetti recently? In her car? Like while she's driving? I hate to say it, but I am a complex

eater when I drive. So me too too but like if i'm eating spaghetti you better believe i'm just shoveling it in a car okay yeah that's right i'm not i don't care about etiquette at that point about the etiquette or whatever you know what i mean i feel like i feel like the spoon and the fork it was two different food different instances yeah and then at one day she was like i don't want this in my car. So I guess I'll put it on the floor, which sounds like a very me thing to do. I'll keep this here on the ground for now. But anyway, so when you said like silverware going missing, I'm like, how intriguing. It's just Franziska the whole time.

She's just like eating snacks, Takis with a fork, I guess. Anyway, so I just thought of that. But I always do wonder because I feel like in these stories, a lot of times it maybe silverware is easy for spirits to manipulate because I feel like that happens a lot where silverware like moves or goes missing. Maybe it's light enough. I also wonder like metal. It's metal.

Yeah. I was going to say maybe there's something like there's a material property to it that makes it easier for them to touch or that they're drawn to. you know how dowsing rods like they can get drawn to that i wonder yes like oh i just bought a new set anyway we'll talk about that another time um but yeah like copper i know that that's a strong anyway or maybe they're like they're like moths and it's just shiny shiny uh so people also hear screaming, moaning, growling, whispering, cussing, their own names being called, all types of voices, male, woman, male, female, children.

They hear something mimicking their coworkers when they're alone. That's gross. Many employees have heard their name getting called in another room when they're the one closing for the night. People can hear knocking on the walls and the doors. Children playing in the hallway late at night when no children are staying at the house. People have heard a kid's ball bouncing down the hallway many times.

That's like a very common one. People have straight up heard explosions. What? Like a bomb went off. I'm wondering if that was like if it was from like gangster saloon brothel time maybe it was a gunshot that they're hearing oh maybe when you showed up and they were like what did you say earlier than a gun oh a guy got shot in the eye oh that too but i meant when you were um you were like if i showed up with my voice in my hair a

shootout i walked in with short hair and then you heard the phantom explosion of people's minds blowing up. I also wonder with the explosion sound. I already lost. Oh, with a fire. Like maybe during a fire, like things like pop and explode. Yeah. And also there's that one mysterious fire. So for all we know like it was

something made up go boom you know i don't know so there's also people get a lot of evps some that i found in different outlets were you little boy which there is a little boy people claim to see do you like me not really get lost okay want you whore oh woof that's bad in a turn of events there's also a female evp of someone saying happy birthday to a guest on her birthday really that one i like well that's lovely. I'm wondering if that is the ghost named Lucy, because she apparently hates men and the guest was a woman. So I will talk about Lucy in a second, but I like to think maybe it was her. I do too. Why not? Or a kid or something.

People feel, and also like, are you shocked that any of the female spirits don't like men if this used to be a brothel? Are you shocked that any of the female spirits don't like men if this used to be a brothel? And if somebody is also saying whore or whatever, yeah, clearly they're not having a great time with whoever that is. So maybe they just saw that there was like a girl's weekend on someone's birthday and she was like, I'm here for the fun. Happy birthday, girl. Have fun. So people feel drawn to certain areas. One person was drawn down the hallway and then heard a voice say come here first of all you're already being drawn you don't need to say it out loud like i'm already coming

right we don't need a full 4d experience um 4d experience a surround sound experience so dolby digital so don't be digital so uh people feel oh yeah people feel drawn to the area employees have quit because their mood shifts have been so strong and they get super irritable people get angry people get sick for no reason all the rooms can get either scorching hot and or ice cold within minutes of each other one time one investigative team actually got a range in one room alone in a span of 20 minutes the room went from 65 degrees to negative one sorry negative one yeah goodbye like zero wasn't good enough okay like we're gonna go right past wow uh faucet water will change its own temperature toilets will flush on their own. Bathroom floors get mysteriously wet.

Heavy phantom items will drop in the shower. So you'll think like a full bottle of shampoo fell in the shower and there's nothing there. That's really weird. Remotes, phones, and keys will all go missing. Lights and TVs will flicker by themselves. Books have been known to open and close themselves when you leave the room. The lobby lamps will turn on by themselves the gas fireplace and the pub will light itself even when it's not even when it's not functional that's not oh and also not safe and super not safe you would think like after

four fires these ghosts would figure it out honestly a door and a broom have both been leaning on a wall uh and then fallen on their own in a way that they had to get lifted off to to fall by the way i don't know if you heard that a door i did a door leaning against the wall i guess was like a spare door right lifted off the wall and then fell the other way can you imagine the slam that that would have made. And then the broom is like, I'm falling too. Whee! I'm sorry. I don't know why I insist on personifying every inanimate object. I can't stop myself. Very a Herstein shifter of you.

It is. To be so attached to random things. I'm so sorry about that. By the way, last night I took a break from doing my notes and watched the part where you realized all over again that it what was going on watched it you've never watched it christine it's so good it's so good uh i also like

i'm i i let's call me a pampered diva or whatever it is but like pat on the back i forgot how fucking good that episode was that was amazing people were like beside themselves about it i really did stay up all night i i remember originally having a completely different story until like six o'clock at night the night before and then i was like it's christine's 30th i gotta do something and i was like what if she was the cryptid and i went oh here we go it's one of those moments where you're like well god, goddammit, dumb brain coming up with ideas. Yeah, I know. It's an idea I can't ignore.

If I do, I'll regret it for the rest of my life. Damn it. Damn it. Damn it. Anyway, we should definitely watch that together. We should do a little commentary track on Twitch or something. Oh, that would be great. Wouldn't that be fun?

Who are you, fucking Zandy Schieffer? I'm trying and this poor guy, he does i'm like let me try it like i he i can't give him one thing to himself so so yeah that's what i'm doing okay anyway back to the personifying the broom going we and i feel bad about the broom by the way because i feel like he kind of got overshadowed but anyway that's besides he didn't though because he made it on to ghost adventures and the door did not. Well, well, well. Because he got lifted when the ghost was mad at Aaron. So.

Okay. I'm loving this. I'm loving this. So doors also slam shut even when they've been propped up or wedged in a way that they cannot close and haven't closed in days. And then the second you're in the room,

the door will slam shut on its own. Lovely. There are sounds of furniture being moved around. There's a sound of parties being thrown upstairs. There's walking and pacing in the room above you, including in vacant rooms and places where there are no rooms above you, but you can still hear as if someone is living up there.

No, no thanks. People have also heard heavy, like 30 pound weights dropped on the floor. They've heard people getting into bed, again, in rooms where there is no room. That is freaky. There's a ghost cat that meows. And by the way, it's me, the empress.

Just the empress. You're just looking at all your many bathrooms, counting them one by one. And the cat meows and jumps onto your bed. And actually one time they even thought that they heard a cat during an investigation. And so they took a picture of the dark room and later saw two little cat eyes in the picture. Which one's a fancy feast? Part of me wants to think it's precious and part of me thinks it's like a, what's harbinger for death or an escort oh no uh here's the creepiest one for me there's a snowman

decoration in the basement that they bring up for christmas that's like that is terrifying thank you for sharing the holidays no vulnerable moment with me they uh but it's like a five foot snowman and it dances when you plug it in and here's the thing it dances when it's not plugged into well fuck off with that i want nothing to i don't want it dancing when it's plugged in i don't want it dancing ever uh people have seen many apparitions uh many are scary as shit. Shadow people. Oh man. I had a picture. I wanted to show you of it. Let me do.

No, we don't have a lot of time. It just know it was really, it was like shadow people on the ceiling, shadow people coming out of doors, shadow people crawling on site on the sides of the walls. And that was the interpretation of the medium from, uh,

dead files. Yuck. She said that others looked fragmented one of them looked like it was dripping chunks of tar whoa people also see a tall and skinny shadow man dressed in 1930s clothing standing in front of your uh bed at night nice cool cool there's a woman in a red head wrap that has been seen and also in pictures has been seen in pictures and in real life um has been seen through the years especially in crowds when the hotel has an event and they think that that's hazel palmer the daughter oh um shadow figures are everywhere there are multiple multiple reports of

people just casually seeing them fly around some of them are as tall as the door frame uh there's a the apparition of a little boy with dirty blonde hair and green eyes who is seen all over the stairs and they think he's the one bouncing a ball in the hallway um kids also actually see this little boy by themselves and ask to go play with him oh god they think it might be carlisle um palm mr palmer's son also in there's a rumor that in the early early 1900s a boy allegedly died from the flu according to one source so they might be the same might be a different boy in room 12 there's a spirit of a maid working there uh who kelly calls jacklyn in one source there's also a woman in a wedding dress. There's a figure playing the lobby's piano.

Allegedly, the spirit of Louis Sinclair is there. There's photos of solid apparitions in the mirror reflections with you. Nah, no thanks. The apparitions look so real that you wouldn't even know that they weren't guests. And the staff have walked up to them to talk to them and ask if they needed help, and then they disappear. Woof. weren't guests and the staff have walked up to them to talk to them and ask if they needed help and then they disappear well um one of the best testimonies that i've seen from an employee is one that was closing up for the night and this is his story quote closing up in the pub and i was startled to see a young man standing at the bar he was a nice enough looking guy in his mid-20s and he asked if i if he could get a beer i said I thought so and checked out the taps to be sure that they didn't lock at night seeing that they

did work I asked what kind of beer he would like and he asked what my choice would be I jokingly said I like the brand with the canoe handle he laughed and said that would be fine he said what do I owe you and I told him I have no idea because I was the night clerk and not a bartender okay I was like is this bartender I forgot he was not a bartender. I was like, he needs to get some training. He's not good at this. I asked him if $2 sounded fair and he gave me a $10 bill.

Oh, oh, now we have another problem. I told him I don't have access to the chain to any change. So I told him that he would either have to have four more beers to give me all $10 or he could see if he had any other money. He checked his pockets and came up with five quarters. I explained that it was his lucky night and the beer happened to be on sale for $125.

I was still trying to figure out where this guy came from. He gave me the quarters, thanked me and went to the lobby. He headed up the stairs and clearly this guy was a hotel guest. The next evening, Kelly, the owner, was there and I laughingly revealed my ghost story from the previous night. And she went a little white and disappeared for a few minutes. None of the rooms that night had been slept in. No one had checked in. No one had checked out.

And the beer glass was never found. Oh, my God. Okay. Okay. Like, it was going to be creepy if it was like oh no nobody with that description is staying here but like nobody was staying there he was a glass vanished probably along with a couple forks and imagine having and francisco was in the corner hey can you imagine just not even talking to like like you're having a full-blown conversation with someone who's

completely which it's like talk about an intelligent spirit of like it is speaking back to you it is thinking producing thought regurgitating words and having a conversation with you it wanted a beer but like it wanted the rest of that ten dollar bill it was like it's like i know i'm a ghost but I don't want to spend this whole $10 bill. So here's five quarters. I'm taking my $10 bill back. I'm like, what is this ghost doing? It's so weird. Also, I wonder like, did the money look old? Like, I don't know. You would think like the money from back then what's, what's $10 in the 1800s. You know don't know maybe he was like trying to do like a weird like look how powerful i am look at look at how alpha male i am with all my money because i would

imagine a $10 bill at that time was like let me show you a crisp hundred for my beer looked like an old-timey person and he said he looked like pretty normal right that's also very weird so then it's like did this guy it's one of those things where you don't even think about it of like ghosts from 2007 aren't even popular ghost stories yet. So maybe this guy died near the property or maybe he loved this hotel when he was alive. And this is just a dude who died like 10 years ago. Or maybe it's a spirit that's just projecting as like a youthful person.

Like in disguise. Because if they can pretend to be children children you'd think they can pretend to be anybody else so true oh at least you had like a pretty neutrally positive yeah it seemed like a pretty inane occurrence like nothing yeah i wonder if like if it were smart enough to think about you know what to say next this guy and to hand off money and blah, blah, blah. I wonder if it had thought like, what's this guy going to do when he realizes I'm not here? Or do you think he even realized? Do you think he's in denial and thought, oh, I'm actually here having a beer?

Maybe. That is so twisted. Yes. So room 22 is Raymond's room, the super bad guy and you can hear things upstairs the whole time even though there's no room above him the most haunted rooms are 11 and 17 where people have been stroked while sleeping and they see the shadow man at the foot of their bed room 17 is lucy's room who was a former sex worker and she hates men she doesn't like people sitting in both chairs because if both chairs are taken up then

she has nowhere to sit and where is she gonna sit well it's implied that then she would be forced to be on the bed as a former sex worker yeah so uh if both chairs are taken especially by men she gets mad slams doors and she has been seen in the chair smoking. Here's the thing. She has been seen. This is from one source and one source only, but yikes. She has been seen in the chair smoking, and the left side of her face was completely beaten. And the right side of her face, the scalp was hanging off of her skull. Oh, my God.

Yeah. Who saw that and lived to tell about it because i don't think i think i would expire i don't think i would survive couldn't tell you i'd be so traumatized knowing that on ghost adventures during the walkthrough of room your chair he destroyed that fucking room he was just he moved the chairs where she likes to sit blah blah blah like during the walk through of room 17 they asked the spirit box is there any danger for any of the people in this house and the spirit box literally laughed and said zach bagans no it did not zach and bagans i'm not kidding like duh hello naturally zach then. Naturally, Zach then goes into Lucy's room.

He messes up the room. He picks up the mattress. He throws the chairs around. Like, what are you doing? Like, have some fucking respect. This person lived a life of trauma. He literally even said that he was provoking the ghost. Like, yeah, no shit.

And like, this person clearly is stuck in a place that she is uncomfortable, unhappy, feels threatened. And so you're going to go in there and take advantage of that. It really just, this is what we talked about in the last week's episode. Like it's, it's like fun. We like to watch it, but like this kind of thing, it really, it grinds my gears. You know? What was that other thing? He said something like the rain reminded him of orphans tears.

Like, Oh my God, that's right. Oh my God. So anyway, the rainbow reminds him of a little tears. Like, Oh my God, that's right. Oh my God. So anyway, the rainbow reminds him of a little leprechaun. So, uh, he goes into Lucy's room,

messes up the room and the REM pod starts chirping like crazy. And you can tell it's this woman being like, all I have is this fucking chair. Can you just like, and like, she already hates men. I'm sure she saw him coming from a mile away and was like oh um the the high-pitched static uh then a high-pitched static shock which you can hear in real time apparently hits zach and he feels like he got

shocked oh which is what happened to that other person yeah and it comes from nowhere. So then the spirit box in the same room literally says Aaron. Uh-oh. And then Zach says, what do you want to tell Aaron? And then in real life, everyone hears a growl. Aaron says, what was that sound? And the spirit box says, a spirit. Then the REM pod starts going crazy, and the spirit box says goodwin which is aaron's last name yeah okay that's not good like aaron's in trouble he's in trouble especially because then

he was the only person that was able to hear footsteps in the hall behind him leaving the room and as almost as if the spirit had like been done with them and left the room and he he heard the footsteps leaving down the hall. And at the same time, no more voices on the spirit box and the REM pod stopped chirping. Okay. So almost to confirm like, yeah,

no one was in the room with them anymore. Okay. All right. And then the, the basement is known to have the worst energy. Uh, many are terrified of that area. This is where Kelly got jumped.

The dark lore is that people died down here in the fires. I would like to put in my two cents and say that people died down here in the fires I would like to put in my two cents and say that people probably also died there during prohibition aka fucking ribs um the basement is not open to the public only for investigators and Kelly has seen shadow people down here has also seen a black wolf with red eyes what people have also heard barking um and again it's like is that the demon wolf or are those the dogs that the palmer son took care of that's right yeah and i would think it's the dog that the dogs that the palmer son is taking care of especially because if you can hear

the dogs barking and someone got possessed and the first thing it says is i have to take care of the dogs absolutely like that clearly must must be still replaying or something. Yeah. So in the basement, Zach gets super lethargic. He can't walk right. And then there's an EVP that says, make sure they go. They all hear footsteps and Zach gets scratched. At the same time, Billy is upstairs at nerve center

and he hears something walking around in the hall. And on that same floor that he's on, the camera that he's checking starts flickering as if something is draining the battery here's the weird thing and all the sources i found for news outlets kelly basically said that there were hundreds of ghosts but all of them were pretty much harmless and although she's a big advocate for respecting the ghosts and saying that you know please don't expect them to put on a show for you. She also kept a journal for a while documenting all of the guests' experiences,

and some can be still found on the Palmer website. All the news outlets sounded like it was light and fun, but according to Ghost Adventures and Dead Files, that was where I saw all of this information that the ghosts are super bad, super evil, she's losing business, and she's scared. And even mid interview on ghost adventures, Kelly starts having a panic attack and crying while the millimeter starts freaking out and everyone feels like they can't breathe. Oh my God. Then in that same interview and that same walkthrough with Zach, uh, they catch EVPs about Kelly saying, I'm following her. Zach says,

tell us everything. And an EVP says, no. Then Zach says, there are spirits here. And an EVP says they're coming to get you. And destination and destination fear. The medium,

uh, these are all the things that she saw a skeleton man with sharp teeth, who she thinks is the most aggressive of the mall raymond uh she saw him holding a woman by the back of her neck he apparently told her he was a murderer and he loved it and he wants to keep killing like he did when he was alive oh my god apparently he's from the 1890s with a lot of money which is why people think it might be that cassius spray guy because he owned the place in the 1890s and had a lot of money, which is why people think it might be that Cassius Spray guy because he owned the place in the 1890s

and had a lot of money. But she doesn't think it's the same person. She also saw a woman screaming and crying. She felt anxiety. Apparently, she heard, without having met Kelly,

she could sense that the living woman here is getting pushed out. The skeleton man is trying to jump people, which she didn't know any of this stuff in advance. The beauty of Dead Files is that the medium just goes in completely cold and just says what she's thinking.

Oh my God, that's what happens when Chip Coffey shows up on Country Spirits. It's the best. It's so much fun to watch them come in without knowing and seeing what they see you know and this is all the stuff she saw and it's very eerie that she got 1890s a guy with a lot of money there was a lot of murder here um the living woman here is getting pushed out something is trying to jump people she said that she saw five to six shadow men that hang out upstairs and she said that they are mentally ill in a way that is very dangerous. And they're probably people who have killed in the past.

Oh, my God. Which when living people stay in a home full of mentally unwell and unsafe spirits, they can begin acting erratic, which is confirmed by Kelly saying all my employees are acting really irritable. Oh, gosh. She also sees smoke and can't breathe, unknowing that there were four fires here. Uh-huh. And she also senses a man who was shot in the eye. No way.

And that is the Palmer House Hotel. That is so, so specific. It's so specific. And also, I am so sorry that I was rapid firing as quick as I could. No, no. Because I know you have your story to get to. No, I'm sorry.

You felt like you had to rapid fire. I know that's.... Wasn't that spooky? It was really spooky. And I've, I've never heard that. I don't think. And again, I say that with a grain, like take that with a grain of salt. Cause you could probably tell me all of your stories and I'd be like, I've never heard that, but I really don't recognize it. Well, I want to say that I got this story suggestion from the Patreon Facebook group because I reached out and asked for suggestions because I haven't done that in a while. Yeah. And this was from Jasmine, who said that, I mean, they seemed apparent. There ended up being a thread where other people were saying like, oh, I saw like I know someone who got a full apparition of a little girl in a uh nightgown there and uh they i don't know i opened it up

they didn't see her with their eyes they were snapping photos randomly and caught it yep okay so anyway there was just a whole thread where people were saying oh you got to do this show or this up this story and i guess i haven't covered it here but if i have let me know interesting um oh i figured out where you did it where i had a feeling the whole time and i i figured it out where was your more morbid episode oh okay i was like i know i've fucking seen because i just before because i just looked it up and i saw uh lucy it says there are boys with no eyes which like i don't know what that's about but yikes um lucy won't take your shit oh so that was probably oh there were three things you talked about and so one of them was the palmer

house hotel aha okay okay there you have it that sense. And I did, I did actually listen to that. So clearly I have heard the story and I just, but I think when I'm not responding to it, it doesn't stick in my brain very well. I totally get it. Well, I love it. And I might also add that to my discovery plus watch list today. It is already in your queue,

my girl, because I watch it on your account you little you just go to recently viewed christine you'll find it you'll find empress what are you called empress yes you're impressed the the the pampered queen okay um all right so i probably have to give you a recap of what story I'm doing because this is a part two. Is it? Oh, wow. Okay.

I know. That's kind of how I felt. Just like clarity for everybody else. It's been a while since we recorded. We've literally traveled to five different cities. Like at least since we last did this. Yeah. So this is the story of Alexander Pichushkin, the chessboard killer.

Oh, okay, yes. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, so basically... I remember the chessboard, he was trying to fill it out with tchotchkes from his kills because he was trying to beat out someone he was inspired by who also killed. Correct, exactly. And so he wanted... His goal was to beat this serial killer that he had spotted on the news and

he wanted to outdo him. And so the, basically just the last thing I mentioned was how there was this woman named Maria who had been attacked and she was, she had been thrown down a well and was in the sewer yes yes i mean traumatizing so she couldn't get out and then she uh climbed up but she the thing was too heavy for her to lift and so she screamed and she saw a girl run away and then the girl actually ran away to go get some help with a security guard and then that's how they found

her and then she was able to tell people who the killer was because he gave his actual name and address and then do you remember what happened after that they found the chessboard no i don't know um so what happened was that uh she gave the oh yes they like they like told her they they covered it up or something they told her because she was like she wasn't a yes a citizen or something yes and the officer did not want to participate in this uh arrest and said and he was basically being lazy and said uh threatened her with, you know, her illegal status in Moscow and said, we'll only, you know, let you go. And we'll promise to tell your boyfriend you're safe. And we'll tell him where you are and to bring some clean clothes for you. But only if you pretend you fell into the well.

Yeah, well, first of all, Cal surprise. And second second of all he did end up going to jail for negligence later right he did he did okay and um happy endings ish yeah it's at least somewhat of a somewhat of a bright spot um and then supernenko the future senior investigator later commented his only motive was i do not want to work that's all he did not need to search for anyone or prove anything if only he had worked properly then patrushkin would have been detained we would then not have seen more than half the corpses so basically half of the murders hadn't even been committed yet and they're now on him yeah and if only he had followed through with her saying this is his name and this is where he lives like us like

a smoking gun it wasn't even like he it's not even like he was lazy and didn't want to have to go play detective like he could have from his desk solved it like he had the answer he could have just written it down and been like he could have just told a different cop i'm on my lunch break yeah can you go deal with this? It's really horrific. And I think it also speaks to like, just not taking women seriously and things like this, where it's like, okay. Yep.

You're fine. We'll call your boyfriend. Like it just reeks of icky, icky stuff. Okay. So after Maria, Petrushkin attacked someone that he didn't usually attack. And now, I don't know if you remember, but he was known to attack often older gentlemen, older people who worked in the park, or no, who didn't work in the park, who played chess in the park, because he felt like he could get away with it because people wouldn't go

looking for them. So he didn't care. He usually didn't care who he was killing. It was not about that. Okay. If that makes sense. Yeah. And so Maria was kind of an anomaly because it was like, oh, somebody would notice she was missing.

Her son did notice she was missing. Oh, yeah. She left him a literal fucking note, right? Yeah. She'd even written a note. And so the next anomaly basically was this 13-year-old boy named Mikael. I don't know how to say it in German. It's Mikael.

Mikael, I'm going to say, like Michael, basically. Okay. Last name Lobov, and he's 13 years old. So big yikes. Wait, that was who he killed next? Yes. Oh, God. Okay.

Yeah. So that was like kind of another anomaly in that it's not just kind of the old loners at the park. It's like he's now going after people who are more risky. Anyone is a fair game at this point. Yes, exactly. So between Maria and Mikhail, Petrushkin would murder 48-year-old Vera Sakharova, 46-year-old Boris Nesterov, and 41-year-old Alexei Fedorov. And that all occurred within, let's see, February 27th, March 7th and March 8th. So like within a week or two, like really back to back. And now tell me if I've said this before, because I'm not sure. I had a point where I broke the

episode in half. But part of me thinks maybe I've already done this and I moved the episode break to later. So let me see. Let me know if this is familiar. If not, we're just going to have to reread it. So it was thought that Petrushkin met young Mikhail around the metro station where a lot of kids his age used to hang out near the flower stands and

dumpling kiosks no you did not talk about this we didn't right because i was like i would have remembered dumpling kiosks we would have made a joke about wanton about wanton wanton yeah it's funny we we did a live show and unfortunately there was like a minor medical emergency during the show it was in brooklyn and um so you know we put up the lights like we want to make sure uh this person was taken care of by the way shout out to gabby i uh i don't know if i ever told you this m but i met two of the nurses they approached me at a bar after the show and we're like hey we were the nurses that came and helped and then they were like we met tonight helping gabby and then that now they're friends and they went out for drinks and it was very fun.

But anyway, they said, I hope I hope you know that you caused friendships at the very least. Yes. And honestly, it was I don't like they mentioned briefly like, oh, she might have been a little embarrassed, whatever. I don't want you to ever feel embarrassed if, you know, especially with a medical emergency kind of thing. And we just got to do a Q&A and about ourselves more so honestly it was a win-win for us but i'm glad you're safe and healthy and and so someone during the q a asked what my dinner plans were and told me about a wanton place and it's very basically said it's a wanton place but but if you log into their website or go onto their website they spell it wanton and so it's just like a perfect little setup um but anyway so yeah dumpling kiosks so i'm sure we

have not covered this yet similar to his other victims patrushkin went on a 20 minute walk through the forest with mikhail but this is also more fucked up in my opinion because he's 13 so he's like a grown man walking this 13 year old kid he had cigarettes and drinks when out of nowhere patrushkin struck him on his head and like maria shoved him down the well to die uh fortunately like with maria porch oh patrushkin didn't realize that he hadn't actually killed young mikhail so apologies wow i did yeah i did say oh he was his next victim he was his victim right but he did survive thankfully damn at that point i would have be like if i were maria i would just like

leave the the heavy thing that you like the super great i would just leave that open at this point and be like hopefully if people can get through there they can just open all of them in town in case anybody goes to one of the now i'm worried that the same thing's going to happen where he can't lift the heavy thing and he's a 13 year old yeah terrifying um so he he didn't realize uh again fortunately that he hadn't actually killed young mikhail so as fortune would have it, Mikhail's jacket caught on a piece of metal in the well. And so he was like caught and he was able to crawl out. Get out.

And Petrushkin had already left. So unfortunately, like with Maria, the police weren't really interested to hear his story. Wow. Two for two? whoa now a kid comes and says hey this guy we know who he is did this to me and again god dismissed was it the same cop oh i'm not sure because if it were i would be like beyond even more infuriated that like if you could have excused it in your mind as like that was one person with a crazy story. You have full confirmation now and you're still. But honestly, I think I'd be more relieved because it's like at least there aren't two people who are hearing about this horrific predator and are like, oh, it's fine.

You know, I can't decide which is worse. It's like either this one person. But yeah, either way worse it's like either this one person but yeah either way it's really bad um he reported all the details but he was dismissed and he was sent home so this is also talk about ptsd trauma uh mikhail would even see petrushkin out and about the following week like he was walking around and he's like that's the guy who tried to murder me so he screamed he called for an officer's attention to alert them to the fact that his murderer was having a casual stroll a few feet ahead of him but basically they were

like you like go home you're a child they totally fucking dismissed him and unlike maria it's it's blood boiling honestly that's a great that's a great way to phrase it it's like so infuriating unlike maria and mikhail the majority of patrushkin's victims were men he already knew and a lot of them like i said were either experiencing homelessness or had very few friends or family who would miss them if they were to disappear um so for example patrushkin would murder one of his friends named yev who often played chess with him um and nothing ever came about uh patrushkin's tactics would change ever so slightly uh after his dog died and while he which is like interesting because i feel like there's an element of empathy that you don't often see like he again we i know i mentioned this but it was a while ago that like he actually was really fond of animals and right cared for them a lot so it's it's an

interesting kind of juxtaposition. Um, but I guess once his dog died, his tactics changed. And while he claims he was kind of, he was upset about the death of his dog, he actually, uh, profited from this piece of news. Um, so his dog died in like, yes, he said he was distraught about it, but he also used it to his advantage because remember when he would tell his victims, oh, like, I'm feeling really sad. Can you come, you know, meet? So now he's doing the classic I lost my dog. He's doing come with me thing. This thing.

Yes. So very disturbing. Yes. So very disturbing. He says he felt a deep sense of loss. And it sort of mimics the time that he lost his grandfather and this stirred up buried emotions. And so he used this tactic on Yev. He made his way to the park, found Yev to tell him about his dog passing. And he asked him to come pay tribute with a with a dog um which yev of course accepted and they did the same rigmarole all over again after they'd walked to the empty part of the park

patrushkin struck yev on the head dragged his body to the sewer and dumped him inside and he actually alleged to killing another 20 people of a similar demographic in pretty much the same manner. 20 more? 20 more in a matter of months. Which is a lot. Oh my God. They were only able to confirm six, however. But still, not good either way.

So the six that they were able to confirm were between the ages of 40 to 46, all seem to be in that same kind of demographic as Yev. And in his 2006 confession, according to The Independent, he admitted that he'd killed Valerie Dolmatov, his neighbor, because of a fight they had over their dogs 10 years earlier. What? A tabloid. Can you talk about a grudge holy shit about a fucking grudge which uh astrological sign holds grudges you think i'm just wondering i don't know because i don't it feels i mean i'm always just gonna lean into scorpio taurus taurus loves the love taurus kind of stubborn. Okay. Interesting. I, I'm just taking a guess in the dark. I'll, I don't know. I feel like that's a good one.

I feel like Taurus and I feel like Scorpio could, could do kind of like a long, like a long game. I think like any hardheaded fiery personalities, like I think an Aries would certainly hold a grudge. I mean, I'm just guessing here. Okay. I don't know. Interesting. Let me check his birthday. I'm curious. If he's a Taurus, it'd be very funny. That would be. would certainly hold a grudge i mean i'm just guessing here okay i don't know interesting let

me check his birthday i'm curious if he's a taurus would be very funny that would be um a virgo if he's a gemini i'm gonna scream a virgo could be interesting too this is a fun game it is right i feel like it is a fun game um he is a he is an aries oh all right that's fine okay fire sign that makes sense you did say that right i did say aries yeah i mean they like vengeance they sure do yeah but also like are you kidding me like okay first of all you're killing anyone relax but also like for a 10 year a fight 10 years ago about your dog like yeah i feel like this guy was just looking for any reason anything like get over any reason yeah uh but no like someone had to die because of a fight think of a fight that you had 10 years ago and someone's

gonna come kill you today because of it are you kidding me i'm like wait what i don't even remember yeah like oh my god that's awful so yes he admitted that he had killed valerie his neighbor because of a because of a fight about their dogs 10 years earlier and a tabloid uh reported mr petrushkin's beloved mongrel apparently sniffed valerie's dog and Mr. So nature happened. Animals interacted with each other. Yeah. So basically Mr.

Petrushkin's beloved dog apparently sniffed another man's dog. And the other man shouted at Mr. Petrushkin. So shouted at him to take away his enormous mongrel mutt. And so 10 years later decided vengeance must be had and for God's sake, murdered the neighbor. So let's check into 2003. Petrushkin was still living in his mother's home, but now hissister katya had gotten married and her husband had also moved into the apartment and they lived in the bedroom while petrushkin and his mom slept in the living room very cramped setup but even with them basically living on top of each other no one at all suspected what he was up to nobody had any clue so how how how like and also like how good of an actor is he where

he's coming home and just easy fucking breezy like he just shoved a bunch of people in a sewer grate i mean well i know i always try to like put myself in their shoes but like in the in the killer's shoes but like my i don't have a killer's mind. So I guess that's not a fair thing to do. But if I, if I killed somebody like a nervous wreck is beyond an understatement. Like there's no, there's no fake and that something happened. If I ever killed someone, you will know, like, and I, even if I think I'm hiding it, you'll know. Absolutely. For him to just be piled in there with roommates and everyone's just like oh let's just watch a tv show let's just hang out what what i know and i i think i don't know if it's like oh because now he's done like 40 of them and he's just used to it or if he's

always been this calm cool and collected i don't know um but yes so they had no idea they had no idea what he was up to and gq actually gives a detailed account into the murder of Alexander Petrushkin's 32nd victim, who unfortunately is not named. And it was an early evening in spring 2003. And this victim was a middle-aged man. And as investigator Fyodor Sova describes, as always, Petrushkin waited for hours until his victims were all alone. In the case of 32, that's what they called the victim. Really? Yeah, not sitting well with me.

I don't know what the right thing is, but still. I guess in the case of this victim, he had been smoking and drinking on a bench, legs crossed, next to a bus stop around the corner from Petrushkin's apartment. It was warm outside and there were too many people around. Petrushkin would have to wait around an hour before everyone but this man disappeared. So it wouldn't take long before Petrushkin and this man were walking to a remote spot in Bitsa Park. And Petrushkin remembered that he was in a foul mood. And so in fear that he'd just leave, Petrushkin tried to cheer him up.

And how did he do that, you ask? Well, he asked him what he would wish for if he were granted one wish. And this man replied to stop drinking. So Petrushkin then smugly replied i promise you today will be the day you stop drinking oh god i hate that and so apparently uh the man asked no questions about where they were walking to uh instead the man who was drunk at the time, just kind of followed along. There wasn't even a spiel about the dead dog.

And Petrushkin never revealed what he and this man were otherwise talking about before he struck him with such force that he was so severely injured but barely alive and then was pushed down a well. Oh, my God. oh well oh my god so this was clearly one of his favorite tactics um to hurt them in a way where they were still conscious by bashing them in the head but not like wanting them to suffer yes exactly uh it's it's sick um and so as patrushkin considered murdering more and or sorry, continued murdering more and more people, he also began forcing. OK. What? This is something I mentioned in the last episode, and I kind of gave the gave the impression that this was a postmortem thing only. But it seems like maybe it wasn't a postmortem thing only but it seems like maybe it wasn't a post-mortem

thing only what so as patrushkin continued murdering more and more people he also began forcing broken shards of a broken vodka bottle into the victim was not dead before he plunged the 30 feet to the bottom the impact would then finish the job um and that became his signature move and this feels particularly fucked up when you think about the man who said he wished he would stop drinking and then this was done to his body and he was thrown down oh well i and i feel like the wow and i feel like the shards now going into people's heads i feel like that's in a sad way almost expected now because i feel like after 40 people of just hitting them in the

head like you need something new like you need like a yeah like escalating it's yeah like it had to so i feel like just hitting someone in the head wasn't good enough because it maybe you got too used to that level of them suffering and you need to make it worse that's a good point and we've also had that um other kind of hint that he wanted the glory, the attention to beat this other guy. So I bet he liked having a signature move across the board would like indicate it was him, you know, which is just sick. Wow. Yeah. It was around this time that more and more people were becoming aware of the murders that were taking place. Bodies would appear at a nearby wastewater treatment center, but it would take time for authorities to connect the Bitsevsky Park disappearances to the bodies that had made their place through the sewage canals. So it took them a while to figure out the connection of they came from the park where these other people had been initially killed, where he just left the bodies.

Wow. Very dark. Oh my God. Very dark. Also, science is kind of amazing because I wouldn't even know where to begin to discover that. Me neither. To be able to follow the sewer tunnels and water flow? Hell no. According to GQ, it is believed that at least 13 corpses, including possibly that of victim 32, are believed to be stuck somewhere in the sewage system.

Still? Yeah. Oh my god. Wow. This is a really fucking dark story. Yes. I mean, it has been dark but just it just keeps adding more and more um but that being said many bodies never turned up at all

so we're not sure what happened and it wasn't like people weren't aware of the murders that were going on it became kind of like a known thing that this park this bits of park was like a fucking murder field basically um he had been operating four times in this four times four years way more than four times but four years in this area and he basically began leaving the corpses exactly where he had murdered them at this point so bits of park was becoming uh more known as the bad part of town, all thanks to what people began calling the Bitsa Park Maniac or the Bitsa Beast. Whoa. And only during his trial would his body count be confirmed for this period of his life.

And there is a long list here. I'm not going to read every single name. You can find them online. A lot of them I also know i won't be able to pronounce and i don't want to give um i don't want to disrespectfully attempt to say people's names and incorrectly you know the number though yeah so in 2003 he murdered 10 people which is like almost one a month yeah three four five six seven eight nine and then in 2005 he murdered 11 um and so those uh i don't know why i'm still shocked at everything you're saying it is it's almost like you can't comprehend it but then when you put it into kind of a number or like something

we can grasp onto it makes it so real and visceral. I keep thinking it's done and then you just keep going. It keeps happening. Yeah. Well, good news. So that last one, the 11, were in 2005. Okay. And so it was in February of 2006 that Andrei Supranko was hired as senior investigator on the case because it suddenly

became glaringly obvious that they were dealing with a serial killer like an understatement of the century um and clues as to who the murderer was were few and far between because um whoever was doing this was good at leaving no trace behind and at one point it was believed that or leaving every trace behind but the cops are like no right i was gonna say i'm sorry i feel like there is evidence here yep like plenty like his name and address also um i don't mean to have you scroll up in notes or anything but do you know how old he is at this at this point um no that's a great question so 2006 and he was born in 74 okay so that's what 20 that's 16 plus 6 is 22 no 32 32 you're so smart okay but isn't that wild he's 32 and he's murdered i mean dozens upon upon dozens upon dozens of people

and has not gotten caught. I'm just disturbed by that. So the clues were hard to find. At one point it was believed that because Bitsa Park was near a psychiatric sanatorium, perhaps a sane patient who was allowed to go on walks in Bitsa Park or a former patient was responsible. So I love that we're immediately taking the mentally ill and saying, oh, well, that must be the killer. Someone, you know, that old trope of someone's loose from the mental hospital and is doing this, which just yikes, big yikes.

After inspecting some of the corpses discovered at the wastewater treatment center the ones that had gone through the sewer the one conclusive piece of evidence that emerged was that this psychopath was using a hammer to to uh knock them unconscious or not even unconscious but to to kind of surprise attack them before killing them. Oh, God. Anything would have been bad, but now that I know that it's a hammer, I don't. There's something about a hammer that's like it's small, but so heavy. I think because we've all accidentally like bumped our finger with a hammer.

Can you imagine that hitting you in the back of the fucking head? Oh, my God. Yeah, it's not. It's not good. So after inspecting, blah so as part of the search one day authorities had around 200 police officers in the park to confront anyone they thought was acting suspicious um and that day they happened to a to arrest a trans woman who was right carrying a hammer uh which they claimed to be caring for protection and news of the bits of park maniac being captured was leaked to the media because of this but alas

within 24 hours thank god the woman was able to provide an alibi and was deemed innocent okay good but can you imagine being like oh no this hammer i'd just keep it in my purse which again sounds like something i would do like this fork and this hammer yeah i 100 like it's a it's a bold choice of weaponry but i totally get being a trans woman at that time or even today and having a weapon on you just in case absolutely yeah not a good look when they're looking for a hammer and she's got one of all all things. Yeah, of all things. It's like, oh, this is awkward. I feel like if the police ever were looking for someone that had anything at all on them,

that was a little crazy. I feel like they would just have to run into you and find your bag. I'm in trouble. I'm very much in trouble. A real mess. It's like when on Let's Make a Deal brady like just says a random item and it's like if you have it in your purse you win and i feel like you would win every time i just wish i could play that that's another thing i thought maybe i should do on tiktok like a let's see what

we pull out today i don't know we'll see i'm just always be your social security card and then you would show that to the public on tiktok and then my identity is now stolen yeah um wow so patishkin even remembered according to the podcast serial killers that one night he was at home watching tv with his family when a news report flashed about the recent arrest of the bits a maniac and he felt kind of mixed about it because like he knew obviously it was himself and so when they arrested this woman uh they so he he he enjoyed the conversation with his family where they were like wow i can't believe they caught what like what a sicko i can't believe they caught that person um so he felt kind of like excited about that but he also felt hurt that his work was attributed to someone else.

Oh, get out of here. Like, he wasn't getting the credit, you know? Forget about it. Okay. So, of course, he would go on to murder 55-year-old Yuri Romashkin, 68-year-old Stepan Vasylenko, 24-year-old Mahmoud Yoldyshev, and 48-year-old supermarket worker Larissa Kuligina

before Alexander Petrushkin was officially caught and arrested on June 16, 2006. yoldashev and 48 year old supermarket worker larissa koligina before alexander patryoshkin was officially caught and arrested on june 16 2006 after the murder of marina moskaliova so initially patryoshkin denied everything but within a few hours he would confess oh what did you do I stepped on the mixer. Oh my God. I was like, yo, not tasteful. Okay. The only thing I will say, at least it went to when he said he, uh, he denied everything. Right.

Yeah. No. Can you imagine if that was like an applause or something? Oh my God. Well, then I would say, oh, that went to him being arrested, but none of it. Sorry. That was not, that should have not been funny,

but it was, you, you got me. It really was an accident. Because it was an accident. It is funny. It was definitely not intentional. I want to be very,

very clear. That really threw me off. I was like, did I do that? I freaked out. Nope. It's usually me. Don't worry.

But yeah, so he claimed he had nothing to do with it. Womp, womp, womp. Nice try, buddy. I'm going to put that spin on it. Sure. So, but a few hours later, he confessed to police that he had met with Marina for a picnic while they sat for hours alone while he was contemplating whether to kill her or not. What a tough decision. Wow.

Must be rough. He eventually decided to take her life as life would have become torture for him otherwise. Wow. That's what he said. I believe it. If he didn't kill her, his life would become his own personal hell and he would just torture himself forever. Well, obviously,

uh, in his confession, he told authorities all about how the majority of his victims were men. Although there were around three who were women, um, according to the exile by Marsha Levine, Petrushkin told police that he knew 20 of his victims from playing chess with them in the park. In fact,

10 of the maniacs victims lived in the same four building complex where he lived 10 of them can you imagine the people living in that apartment complex being like everyone here is dropping like flies i'm so scared disappearing or like even like people going to play chess there 20 people who play chess there all died i'd be like we're not allowed no one's going to the chess park anymore hell no. And so with nearly all of them, he would coerce them to go to Bitsa Park to tell them about his dead dog. He'd invite them to share a vodka to mourn his dog's death.

And then he would lodge that vodka bottle into their skull and push them down a well. So. Wow. In Masha Levine's analysis into the psychology behind his attacks, she notes that Petrushkin didn't rape his victims, but he got sexual kicks from sexual substitution.

So unlike Chikatilo, who was his like idol, uh, he wasn't about the slashing and cutting. He was more into. What? What? This is a quote.

So I'm going to say it, it uh skeletal penetration also known as skull fucking uh-huh um so after he got his victims wasted he'd bash their head in with a hammer then stick empty bottles and twigs into the holes he'd made in his in their skulls wow uh yeah he later said i like the sound of a skull splitting oh my god wow yeah um whoa he sometimes mixed it up a bit he strangled a few of his victims or even tried out a homemade single shooter uh that he made out of a pipe um a single shooter what is that like a i think like a gun like some sort of something that okay shot something sure yeah sorry you had me at at skull fucking that was that's all i i'm out i'm far out far far away uh so peter savodnik breaks down patrushkin's motive in the gq article he comments unlike andre cicatillo a sexually dysfunctional sexual predator or ted bundy who

preferred college girls patrushkin didn't want sex he sought something purer an untainted death this is not to say that killing was not sexual for him the way the maniac talked about killing he would tell the court that one's first murder is like first love made it sound like a biological imperative he said he sometimes ejaculated when he killed okay okay uh he even later went on to equate murdering to a perpetual orgasm okay okay uh natasha fai fai et asova daughter to boris fai et asova patrushkin's 36th victim remembers that it was strange that he only wanted to kill people he knew if he had killed people he didn't know in another neighborhood it wouldn't have been as bad but he killed people he knew uh fiatasova was especially heartbroken because she knew pachushkin well she was very good friends with his half-sister katya

there was a total shock when we heard it was Sasha Pashushkin. He was always very calm, always by himself. Wow. And he confessed to murdering a total of 61 people. Holy shit. It's a lot. I don't even know 61 people. Me neither. And all in that park.

Wow. Yeah. Police would only, only be able to link him to 49 murders um but again there were a lot of people that was those were the only ones they were able to like track down and like connect to him but like the way that he operated and the way that he kind of picked on people who didn't have like family friends like i would not be surprised if the number was higher than that 49 they found um he spoke about his kills with a strange pride reflecting that he felt like this is disgusting felt like the father of all these people oh since it was I who opened the door for them to another world.

So like the mother is the giver of life and the father is the giver of death? Is that what he's thinking? Like he's like, he's giving them a existential new spiritual life experience. Yeah. I don't know. Like he's opening the world for them. By the way, like, I don't think we need to say it at all but like the confidence and the arrogance of a man at all let alone when he's got this weird power that is backed behind him like he killed 61 people it i want to it's like it's not like if you're a

dude who is super arrogant and like you killed one person and you think you're going to get away with it and then you get caught right away. Right. Like this guy has successfully been getting away with it. So his arrogance must be like overflowing. Absolutely. The cockiness. And then like for him to be like, first of all, this one guy was a killer and he is not,

I'm, I'm a higher value than that. So I'm going to kill worse and better and more. And then on top of that, I am the father of these people. And also I consider them my children. It's like, they're my children. Also,

I'm going to do stuff to them after they're dead. And I'm going to throw them up into fucking wells and stab them in the head. What? It's horrific. And it's, it's so nonsensical and it makes me really want to hear a lecture on on forensic psychology i'm just so curious what

did you say earlier blood boiling uh it makes my blood boiling that's just like i'm trying to think of the word that this is the experience i'm having and I think yeah I think that's what probably what I said um so at the time of his confession he also felt a strange pride in as you just kind of alluded to being able to supersede Chikatilo's final body count um he did feel sad uh but just because this was kind of an inconvenience uh he said, if they had not caught me, I would never have stopped. It doesn't sound like it. Yeah. Nobody's surprised by that.

I feel like if your whole goal was like fill out a chessboard, like at that point, this is your new normal. You don't just stop once you hit the end of the chessboard. You start on like checkers. Yeah. Like you keep going. As mentioned previously, Patrushkin was highly cooperative

with police and his trial began september 13 2007 and on the documentary uh journalist yana sharinskaya who attended the trial described his behavior as a performance because he wanted the attention like he just loved that the attention was all about him wow my eyes just rolled all the way back into it hurts right how much your eyes roll uh in the trial he was kept inside a glass cage whoa similar to how andre chikatilo was also 14 years earlier kept inside a glass cage during his trial but despite but despite the fun of this glass cage, there were also two things that irked him. He pleaded with the court to bring his total body count up to 60 with three surviving victims because they were only trying him for 49. And Chikatilo's number was 54.

And so he was very annoyed that even though he said he killed more than that, that they were cutting it at 49. Wow. And now he would be, quote, denied this eternal fame, as he put it. Secondly, according to GQ, during the trial, he remembered how when he was committing the murders, he sometimes had to hurry up and finish someone off

so he could rush home and shower, in some cases scrubbing the blood out of his hair or from under his fingernails and watched the latest installment of tv adaptation of alexander dumas countess of monsoorow with his mother that was the show that they watched together i think i mentioned that briefly last episode but he could never miss an episode and so he would say oh it was so frustrating sometimes i'd have to like like rush a murder so i could get home to watch this with mom uh-huh yeah so alexander patrishkin was convicted on october 25th 2007 for 48 murders and three attempted murders he was sentenced to

life in prison with the first 15 in total solitary confinement whoa which i guess finishes this year whoa so yikes i don't think he's going to be a more stable person after that i would argue impossible yeah yeah um in prison alexander patrushkin uh has written to over 80 women who admired his work what the fuck is going on with these people like i like to think that all women are on the same page but like what the fuck is going on with these people like i like to think that all women are on the same page but like what the fuck is going on with these certainly not oh my god otherwise we'd be in a much better place well yes those 80 80 people in my opinion certainly would yep uh there was one woman who stood out and in 2016 journalists discovered he had proposed to a woman called Natalia, who had first written to him in 2014. Natalia was an employee at a Siberian children's shop.

Hopefully has been fired since then. Right, yeah. And first saw Petrushkin on a news program and fell in love. Wow. She has commented saying that she is proud of her groom as if he was a hollywood star her groom hollywood star are you kidding me disgusting unwell so so unwell like i say i'm unwell like that's fucking unwell despite the uh engagement the russian prison system forbade them from continuing contact and getting married uh they were like we're drawing the line here however still to this day Natalia is able to see her

loved one every day in the form of a tattoo on her arm get out of his face and that is the case of Alexander Petrushkin, the chessboard killer. The chessboard thing wasn't really much except that he tried to fill out a chessboard with his victims and also killed people playing chess in the park. So I guess it sort of fits. But it wasn't as kind of like about chess. Yeah, exactly. It's rough because there is not a lot of information on a lot of his victims so i just want to point that out especially because he picked a lot of people who were considered loners and that kind of thing um but yeah uh it's it's a pretty disturbing one

and um whoa i'm gonna send you a picture of the chessboard here. Yeah. And the chatter. I'll text it to you. Okay. Oh, there it is. 157. Oh, I see.

What a weird way to even do the chart. But okay. Wow. That's super eerie. Do we know where this chessboard is now? You know, I don't. Like, where did now you know i don't i assume it's like where did they put this kind of i assume it's in custody somewhere but i'm not sure yeah i guess it would just be like held somewhere yeah oh that's so eerie you know what this is such a kind of half

off question but like the one of the main things that make me think that like ghosts might not be real is like, how do you kill 61 people and you're not being haunted by every single one of them? I think that every night. I just feel like if if you're a killer, you should have the the the most demonic things happening to you. Like, I mean, that's it's such a weird a weird small like my brain's having a moment and thinking about that kind of stuff but i just think like 61 people like how do you not have bad energy following you at all whether it's a ghost or not you must right i'm sure he does he's in solitary confinement he's probably fucking tortured yeah i just wonder how you just you like okay 61 people how did you get to i don't know 43 and like just walk around with an air of confidence and like not even realize that like

the world fucking hates you you know it's twisted it's just wild very twisted and it makes me sad and it makes me wonder if just that really terrible head injury would have done anything if it had been prevented. Right. Didn't he get hit in the head with a swing or something? Yeah. Boy. Yeah. I also feel terrible for people who have had head injuries and have to deal with that stupid trope.

It's terrible. Yeah. It's terrible. No, I had a head injury. I'm not a killer. You know? Awful. like it's like no i had head injury i'm not a killer you know awful anyway a lot of a lot of tangents we could get off on but i know that you also are running off to something right now

so yeah i just gotta go help the baby uh go to sleep but yes there is also a photo of the tattoo on her arm and it's doesn't look like him are you sending it to me yeah let me send it to you and then you can go talk to your baby what a weird life what a weird life you live just having to deal with dark shit and then just go be with a little sweet baby it's really lucky that i'm extremely good at compartmentalization because i'm very good at that oh ew the tattoo is literally like a shadow figure of him and a chess board so like it's not i didn't even realize that's a fucking chess board so like now the purse so now it's like you're not even ignoring that part of his life to try to love the other thing oh he's moved past it you're saying we're both celebrating it you're saying i want to mark my body for the things that

he wants to be known for and i want to know him for that makes me so ill that's fucking disgusting and this is the this is the actual person his wife or girlfriend or whatever yeah or i guess they're not allowed to get married so it's his fiance i feel like i mean I'm sure this is like a, probably a controversial topic, but I wonder what the, like, how do you, I guess, technically she hasn't done anything wrong, but I feel like if you are falling in love with someone who has murdered 61 people, like, shouldn't you yourself maybe like be on a suspect list or like a not that you've done anything but like maybe like a let's watch out because their their values are a little wild list yeah yeah like put put them on a i mean i'm sure i'm on a fucking list for saying some of the shit i say in text messages so maybe i don't i hope that's not a controversial thing to say but like i just think like who is this person that fell in love with you and like, is cool with this? Like, just totally fucking cool with you murdering 61 people.

And I was like, that's not a red flag. That's not worth thinking about. Yeah, at least put a little red flag in her and like, just, just make sure if something happens, like, check out where she's at right now. Like, what does girl talk over coffee look like with this person? Do they tell their friends like, yeah, it was 61 people, but like, whatever, whatever.

Or, or is it like, yeah, that's not good. We're like, for sure. Trying to like compartmentalize that and not think about it while I'm dating him.

Like, like, like I want to know the mentality. It's on my arm. So I never stopped thinking about it. Like, right. Like you wanted to get a tattoo.

You want to get the thing that was marking all the murder victims on your arm. Like his trophy. So like what's happened? Like are you good? Like you're not. Well, I think a therapist needs to be involved. A therapist would have a lot to say about this entire relationship.

If a therapist has a lot to say about my relationship, then I think like this one probably has a lot more layers. Yeah. say about my relationship then i think like this one probably has a lot more layers uh yeah i'm i'm like not trying to like do any sort of like direct slander or anything but i'm concerned that people have have these like like i feel like i think you know what i mean i mean i absolutely do and i know what i mean know what you mean But I also think that this person saw him on a news headline, a news program, obviously discussing the fact that he murdered men, women and children, 61 of them, and immediately fell in love with this person like that. There's not I don't think there's any way around saying you know what though fucked up that is like i actually like have a bit of a request for you eventually i think this before we like give our own opinions which like i mean we're already giving our own opinions but i think it would be a really interesting topic for you to do is the

psychology of people who fall in love with serial killers because you've requested that before have i because i'm thinking about this and i'm like i feel like i'm making this one person um like i'm like isolating the experience but i think about like all the women who were just so in love with ted bundy or like i mean there's clearly something well i mean think about this guy like he had a ton of people he just picked her as the one that's right so yeah so i mean i think about this guy. Like he had a ton of people. He just picked her as the one that stood out. So, yeah. So, I mean, this woman is not alone in thinking like this. It's just a completely different way of thinking than I do.

And I would love to see if there have been studies on the reasoning behind this kind of stuff or how they're able to reconcile it in their head. You know what I mean? Absolutely. I just wrote that down. So thank you. Cause I hope it's not too controversial of a topic, but it's like, just all I'm trying to get at is I'm fascinated and confused and would love

to understand. That's all. Absolutely. And we'd love to get some more insight. Um, no, I totally agree. So we will look into that eventually.

Sorry for the very long episode, everybody. And I know you got to go see your baby and completely melt away from the last two hours. I hope I can. I'll try. All right. Well, I am excited to eventually hear you talk about that. It doesn't have to be next week, but I am thinking about it and I am hoping for it. Okay.

It'll be, I will do it soon because I think it's a very fascinating topic. Okay. And? Okay. I love you uh that's why we drink i love you too thank god i was worried you wouldn't say it