And That's Why We Drink - E284 The Troll Hole Em-porium and the Time Traveling Wedgie Patrol

Episode Date: July 17, 2022

Welcome to episode 284, where we have some dangerous banter wiggle room! This week, we're embarrassed we didn't know about Em's topic, the ginger biscuit-loving Tizzie Whizie. Then Christine brings us the second half of the tragic Oklahoma Girl Scout murders. And we'll leave you with this parting thought: if ghosts could time travel, would they watch us pick our wedgies? ...and that's why we drink!

oh christine what i just know that i have to listen to a part two of that i was wondering if you remembered or not who could forget i don know. Maybe everyone else who's gotten a week to not think about it, but certainly me who recorded the other half yesterday with you. Yeah. Two days of waking up to some gruesome stuff. It's tough stuff. Before we get into it, though, I would like to banter with you a little bit. Excellent. What would you like to banter about? I don't know. I just, my story is incredibly short this week and so i feel like we have some wiggle room to catch up on things or you know say hi i know you know this but that is a dangerous kind of path to go down of like we have so much time on our hands because

ah you know i was lying i was lying anyone can use it up real quick. The whole time I did not mean it. Okay, well, let's just do a good old-fashioned how are you and what do you drink? Yeah, great question. I was about to ask you. Well, I drink because I exercised today. Whoa, wait. Do you drink for a good reason or a bad reason? Bad, bad, always bad.

What was your exercise routine? What did you do? So I am not a person who, like, I was at one point in my life someone who was, like, obsessively exercising. But I'm not good at being a casual exerciser because I take everything a little too far. And so as people who've struggled with this know, it can be a slippery slope. Oh, yeah. So I've become very obsessive. And so I kind of cut back for a while. And then

obviously with the baby and everything, but I was like, Oh, I want to like be more active, you know, in like not a intense way, but just like be more active. And so I found this group and I went out of my comfort zone and I did this like mom's fitness group thing today. I signed up before I could talk myself out of it. And I was like, why did I do that? And then, um, and I, you take the baby with you. So I took Leona and she met some other babies and were you, were you part of like the stroller squad? Is that what happened? Literally called that. I think like it's something, it's something really funny and cheesy. And I remember being like, Oh my God, my brother's going to make fun of me. And I told him, he's like, no, I'm so proud of you.

And I was like, that was nice. Um, so I'll make fun of you. That was silly. But I am. I can't believe you went out of your social, I feel like you bragged about the wrong thing. You stepped out of your social comfort zone and that is much bigger than exercising. That's exercising your brain and your will. And it was fun because like everybody had, if they did have their kids with them, it was like super, I mean, everybody like gets it. So if the baby is fussy or is hungry, like you just stop and like, you know. But Leona had a great time. She was blabbing the whole time. And it was just really low key and very, very like easy, basic, simple, just like, you know, shoulder.

Did you make a buddy? simple just like you know shoulder did you make a buddy um they did like a bomb pops and water guns afterward and i had to go home because um leona was too tired and we had to record um so i feel like next time i'll have to stay in really so but yeah people everyone was really nice and i think i might try it again so i took you away from water guns. That's so sad. God, I knew you felt it somewhere in your soul. I felt that one. But Leona had her first popsicle and it was a disastrous mess, but it was very fun.

I can't imagine a baby with a popsicle has ever been a clean affair. She likes to hold everything in her hands, so it just went everywhere. Especially with her tight little baby fists. I can just see it seeping through her fingers like it's bleeding. Yeah, exactly. Like it was prey.

It was, of course, grape flavor, so it was a disaster. It stained everything, I'm sure. Everything, yeah. My clothes. Poor Blaze's car. But, you know, we had fun. But, yeah, so I felt like I was doing something totally way out of my comfort zone, both physically and socially. So I had an interesting day and I think I'm going to be sore tomorrow, even though I was just like walking the whole time. But I'm very out of shape. So what about you, Em? Well, first of all, I feel like an asshole because I've already yawned like eight times and like you sound like you've had an exhausting day.

I'm drinking a cold brew, so I am wired. Oh, okay, cool. I haven't had anything yet. I'm drinking a cold brew, so I am wired. Oh, okay, cool. I haven't had anything yet. I'm still chewing on sleep a little bit. So what about me? I don't know. I had a dentist appointment yesterday, which I was nervous about. And I'm still nervous about after the fact, because i was told it was a cavity but it was so

close to a nerve that they were saying if it didn't go well you'd need a root canal and uh after i left the dentist yesterday uh it still didn't feel right something doesn't feel right and i'm like so scared that it's like not gonna get better and then i'm gonna need a root canal so it doesn't like i'm not in pain but I'm just aware my tooth feels different they drilled the cavity yesterday and you just have to wait and see if it like did the trick I guess so or it should honestly like I've had cavities filled before it should like be completely like totally fine now and it isn't and so now I'm scared oh so but they filled it yesterday they filled it yesterday and it just feels it still now i'm scared oh so but they filled it yesterday they filled it

yesterday and it just feels it still feels a little sensitive whatever the filling is it feels a little soft it doesn't feel like it's like or i feel like if i bit down on like an apple the wrong way or something it would crack and i'm scared so far where where is it in your mouth like your molar it's one of the good ones it's one of those super solid ones that your molar? It's one of the good ones. It's one of the super solid ones that I need. Yeah. It's one of the nyah nyah nyah ones. Too bad. I know.

If it were like a little one, I'd say just rip it out. Oh. Okay. I'm that drastic about it. But this is one like I really need to perform well at all times. So, yeah. As a carnivore. As a carnivore.

Well, actually, I guess herbivores use these guys. I learned from the dinosaur exhibit. Oh, well, I know he's the canine sharp ones. Oh, okay. Well, apparently I'm an herbivore cause I need my crunchers. I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah. You got to grind it, you know?

Yeah. So I'm a little worried about that, but luckily my dentist is like a ridiculously close by. So if there's an emergency, I'm sure I can just stumble on in, hustle down there and be like, please, God help me. But yeah, I really it's I think maybe it's a mental game. I think it's probably fine. And I've just just twisted it in my in my own head. So but that's the bad reason why i drink the good reason why i drink or the progressively less stressful reason why i drink is because i think fingers crossed by the

time you're here the troll hole should be complete by the time i'm there oh my gosh how exciting i know you if it if it is you will know about it but if it's not you will also know about it but i'm i'm trying to hustle. I really want it to be done by the time you're here. Well, I'm expecting an Evite because, as you know, I'm – Christine, you fucking ruined it. That's what I meant by you'll know if it's ready. Oh. Well, I'm the one who started the Evite train.

I know. But I wanted to return the favor. And if it's ready, you will be getting an Evite. You have no idea how happy that makes me even if it's not ready then next time I want an evite I'll you'll still get an evite it'll just be a date much further in the future oh yeah or it'll just be like don't come by you're not in 2023 you let me know um but so I there's like one super big thing left that i have to get done for it um and then after that i'm like 95 done i think the rest of it is just kind of finagling so

i'm very excited i hope you enjoy it we're gonna have to do like a patreon reveal or something oh there will be a tour definitely i've put've put too much blood, sweat, and tears into this. Yeah. Sounds like it. I've tried very hard to be very functional and practical with my space. So every little bit of it has been used. Wow, Em, I'm so excited. I'm very proud of myself.

I am too. There have been a few times where I just stood there in the middle of the room and I patted my own back physically. And then I went, I'm so proud of myself so uh I believe in self-care and that was something I needed to do so but I it is it's healing something in my childhood for some reason I think it's like the room full of things I always wanted but was always told no you know what I mean oh I should make one of those that would be it's a blast yeah it's very fun so um it is chaotic also so the it's just very fun it's like a museum of all my hopes and dreams i guess oh let's do what you want with that it's like a uh uh hmm i don't know what the right word is but you know how like like there's like crazy words like phantasmagorium or something.

Oh, dear Lord. It has a gorium at the end. Emporium, maybe. An emporium. It's an emporium. There it is. It's a troll hole emporium. Yeah, it's a good time.

It's what it is. I can't wait to see it. You're going to have a blast. So I don't know. You better not be knocking it at all or you are not invited into the troll hole you better not what you better not knock it at all why would i knock it i don't know don't make you don't whatever you see in there you cannot judge you just gotta know that it's part of the ride that's what you're gonna think i'm gonna be mad you didn't nail the curtains to the wall like i do i mean i feel like i don't have a leg to stand

on here but you kind of do because every time you nail something to the wall it does work so thank you very much for uh finally admitting that I appreciate it I don't like it but I also can't I can't fight you like you're right factually speaking okay well anyway those are my updates do you have any good bad situations or are you just today just a day all about being proud of yourself just vibing you know you're a social butterfly oh my gosh i was like so nervous because i'm not used to being social with people um but it was fun it was fun it was uh very chill and it wasn't chill because it was 96 degrees out. So that part was not fun.

And humid, I bet. Very sticky. Disgusto. That's what the popsicles were for, I guess. Alexa, what's the weather today? 75. No humidity. All right.

Alexa, stop. She always wants to tell you more than you give a shit about. October, and then we can talk about the weather. Okay. Okay, that's fair. You actually have like a fun, cool October. wants to tell you more than you call me in October and then we can talk about the weather okay okay that's fair you actually have like a fun cool October I get like thunderstorms and like leaves I know so listen I'm not I wasn't even gonna bring it up I brought it up it's my fault anyway I just wanted to have a little chat with you I just wanted to say hi I enjoy our

I believe it or not I enjoy our friendship friendship it is hard to believe at times but um uh it's it goes both ways my friend oh well uh cool well i guess i've got my story to tell but it is shockingly short i listen that's fine nobody's gonna complain i mine is long and depressing so i know but then i felt like an obligation to like really deliver this time and so like to fight off how like sad your story is no no because that'll just delay the inevitable you know you're right just get it over you're right okay well okay well if anyone was looking for a road trip episode it is not this one i i don't think but stop the car if you're looking for something to like you know you know, brush your teeth to, that's what this is.

So get ready. Don't brush your teeth that long. I feel like you're in No Wonder M has cavities. I feel like your enamel is all going to wear off. Okay. Well, do something that takes approximately 10 minutes of your time. so shout out because i as soon as i say this you're gonna know what i'm covering but shout out to a podcast you're recently on called that spooky for teaching us about this oh i'm excited it was a fun time this it was a fun time to be on that show and they were

very lovely um and so while we were talking at some point cryptids came up or i don't know i truly don't know how it came up all i know is we landed there which is that i was taught about the tizzy wizzy um i'll tell you how they have a pet hedgehog and they said the hedgehog's halloween costume is going to be the tizzy wizzy and we said i'm sorry what yes that, you don't know about the Tizzy Wizzy? And we were like, we're embarrassed. We didn't know this. I was embarrassed, definitely.

So shout out to that spooky. They were very, very, very, very sweet. Gracious hosts. And even if you don't listen to them, maybe around Halloween, check out their Instagram because maybe you'll see a picture of their hedgehog dressed as the Tizzy Wizzy. So this is in Lake Windermere, which is in Lake District. I guess it's called like the Lake District and there's a bunch of lakes in Cumbria, England. Cumbria, England.

Oh, OK. Sure. I thought we were doing like a Minnesota lakes thing and then we went somewhere completely different so I it felt very Minnesotan like Lake District yeah I you had me going but um so now I'm just kind of along for the ride okay well good phew so in Cumbria England there's an area called Lake District and it's a bunch of lakes and the one lake we're talking about today is Lake Windermere. And this was in at least it was either in 1900 or around the early 1900s. But I think it was 1900. OK.

There's a boat man, a man who owns a boat. And he notices that tourism is just booming in the lake district um so he decided to try to make some money off of it he was like how can i profit from this situation uh he's he's a he's a hustler i guess he's like ready ready to scheme and so he goes to what i thought was a pub in one source but then in another source it's called stag's head hotel so i don't know if it's like a pub in the hotel yeah maybe it's one of those old-timey inns i love an inn love a good inn and so he goes and has himself a little drink while he's trying to scheme and plot out his next strategy and uh he's going to see here's the thing he has some ideas at

first that don't land here's wait that's what i don't care about anything else i want to know about the failed ideas this is i only saw this in one source and i was like i don't know if this is just flowery writing and maybe none of this is true but but someone wanted to add more. I want to know. But since it's in a source, I will be saying it as if it's fact. So here are some ideas he had. He is going to charge people for him to dance on his boat. Starting strong? Also, you have to really believe in yourself as a dancer.

Yeah. People with no frame of reference are going to want to come see you. It'd be one thing if like also he'd like, by the way, apparently the reason he turned down his own idea was because he was like, well, then I have to get dancing lessons. So he from the start was not a good dancer like the the what you would call it the initial investment was too high because he didn't have the money yet to buy dancing lessons oh my god this is like he was starting out like an at a net negative yeah negative yeah exactly um so he was like oh wait that i'm not a dancer so that might not work um because who would want to stand there and just like clap along while i dance on my

boat and also i would but are they even welcome on my boat or like are they standing on the dock while i'm on my boat that's what i'm wondering uh and so he's like okay well we gotta we gotta mix that one so try then the next thing is he's going to the the way it was phrased, eeks me out. He's going to charge couples. I'm sorry. He said lovers to stay on his boat. Well, that. So now I'm wondering, is this.

Did you say it eeks you out? Yeah. Like eek you out? Sure. But I like eek you out. That's interesting. I think I have trauma from every time Eva's ever texted us eek. That's why I don't like that.

But in my head, she's saying eck because she spells it E-K. Yeah. In my head, I just hear eek. I want to hear eck. Oh, well, it certainly eeks me out. Well, it eeks me out. I say eeks me out a lot lately. I don't know where I got it from.

Clearly not you because you say it real weird. Okay. Maybe because eek sounds like freaks me out. Oh, maybe that. Yeah. I don't know. We could really tumble down that hill very quickly if we'd like to. It's just end in a trash heap at the bottom. Yeah. Except we're already in a trash heap above. So it just becomes one big trash pile. Oh, we accidentally went to the dump and now we're just rolling around well it reminds me in school there at cnu we had mount trash more which was literally a it was literally a park built on top of like a dump and so when it would

rain the park would smell like sewage because the trash under they literally didn't know what to do with the trash so they just put a blanket of grass over it and then they put some like recess equipment on it and so you would just go to it was literally called mountain trash more and you would just go to the park but you knew you were dancing around on trash and uh yeah whenever it would rain it would smell like garbage because it was coming through the grass. Yuck. Anyway, we start at Mount Trashmore, then we roll down the hill, and then we end up in more trash. That's how I see that. Just so much trash. Anyway, what a tangent.

You told me, you know, you told me we had time. What do you think is going to happen? You're right. You're right. You're right. I also always, there was a huge rumor that, like, at Mount mount trashmore um there were dead bodies under the grass sure of course which like why i mean law and order told me that there's dead bodies in the dump all the time all the time and you can smell it when it rains so it's honestly whenever megan's at the park you better look out because she's gonna let you know real quick if it smells like a dead fucking body if it's raining or not. Yeah. So, um, uh,

what was he doing? Oh, so yeah, he said he was going to lovers, aching, aching out lovers. He's going to charge lovers to sand his boat, which confused me because I was like, that could mean a lot of things.

That can mean a lot of tame things and a lot of X rated things. It could mean they're all kind of icky. Like, are you charging them to like have like a romantic one night like a picnic like a sunset boat experience or are you having them like rent like a motel by hour by hour or are you all i heard for some reason when i thought like charging lovers to be on his boat i really thought it was like he's paying like they have to pay to like go if they want to do it on a boat like that specific that's what i was thinking yeah like that's what i

mean like motel hour by hour yeah like you need a private place yeah exactly and they have that now in vegas with planes you can rent a plane for an hour oh um like is it off the ground or is it on the ground no it like does like a loop for like 45 minutes or 90 minutes or whatever. In the air. In the air. And like, it doesn't look like a normal plane. Like there's like the LOL cockpit, which I don't know why they didn't call it that, but whatever.

They called it like. Sexy time. Oh, maybe it's like the mile high club or something. I think it's like another play on club or something i think it's like another another play on words what about a g sex actually that works also um so they but like it like it's just the part where the pilot sits who like knows what the hell's going on behind him and then the rest of it is like literally just like a bed and pillows and roses and candles and like sexy music like it it's clearly meant for you to do you imagine if we went on there just

to like hang out and like just like play on our nintendo switches the whole time honestly i think that would be a blast i think it'd be so fun i think it's terrible for the environment um that you're just flying around for no reason but okay um we're talking hypothetical world but we're not actually going to do this but it would be think of the party you could throw on on like think of the possibilities think of the pillow fight think of the slumber party the 45 minute slumber party you could throw up there 45 minute slumber party uh but yeah i it feels like you know it's existed before so when i heard this oh we could charge lovers to use my boat i kind of felt like it was in the same frame of that he's just gonna like put some rose petals on the ground of his boat gross yikes uh he's gonna park it right next to like

low tide at the seashore and it stinks um so okay. Those were some of his ideas and he was like, this is not going to work. So I've got to come up with a different plan. So as he's sitting at the pub, trying to conjure up a little strategy here, a group of tourists, all these people come in into his town, a group of tourists come in and they make small talk with him, but they hear that he has an accent and they like lose their mind, makes me think they're american yeah definitely and they say oh my gosh you're a local please tell us some like local lore they happen to be like spooky kids and they were like oh we love looking up like all the haunted places and all this like please tell us some like spooky local lore also like it's not an accent if you're in their hometown. Do you know what I mean? People are ridiculous. I know.

And so they said, tell us some spooky mystery from this area. And so the boat man, who never gets a name, by the way. The boat man. Maybe the strategist, as I like to call him, with all of his big marketing plans. I like that you say it's strategist instead of strategist but yeah strategist i also say eek instead of x i don't know sorry this is my american accent i don't know if you're familiar um okay so so he's sitting there and he heard oh tell me a story tell me a lore and i think it sounded like he couldn't come up with anything and so he's like

quickly scanning the room looking for inspiration to bullshit these people um so he's sitting there and he's like scanning the pub scanning the pub and there is a portrait of a hedgehog okay sure and he goes to them and he's like have you ever ever heard about the Tizzy Wizzy? Oh, boy. So from the beginning, we can pretty much guess the Tizzy Wizzy might not have existed. It's in his own mind only. He was like, this is my moment to really wow people. Here we go. Take it.

Take it and run. Well, he sure did. So he tells them that he himself has had encounters with the Tizzy Wizzy. tells them that he himself has had encounters with the tizzy wizzy and i don't know if he said i'm the first or only but um he certainly i don't think he made it sound like it was a very common thing to run into he made the tizzy wizzy sound very shy you're very lucky if you ever catch one um and then he convinces this group of tourists to accompany him to uh to the lake the next day yeah he just wants people on his boat he's such a weirdo he's just obsessed with getting people on his damn boat i see i'm one of those people too where if you have a boat i'm kind of obsessed with getting on it so i would be down to work with him you know what i mean like if someone

says i have a boat i'm like okay i guess i. What kind of boat is that? I'm picturing like a canoe. I'm imagining like a Tom Sawyer Huckleberry Finn boat. Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. Just a bunch of boards nailed together. I think that's what I was picturing when it was like I invite lovers onto my boat. And I was like, cool, that's going to be a great time. Maybe at best. But it might be fancier than that.

I don't know. It's like a Lieutenant Dan trimping boat, maybe. I don't know. At best. Well, we're in 1901 or 1900. 1900, yeah. I don't know the boat facts from that year, unfortunately. Well, you have officially given me something to hyperfixate on.

I'll know everything about boats by the next time we record. Don't worry. Oh, okay. There's a lot to know. So don't say i'll know everything about boats but next time we record don't worry oh okay there's a lot to know so don't say you'll know everything because i'll know everything about the style of a boat in 1900 in that specific year yeah great the more specific the more intrigued i am because i'm like oh it's doable to learn of course so anyway he is one of those people who just wants people on his boat he's like look i used to be really bad with my money and this was a bad investment because nobody comes on my boat with me so you need to come with me sure he doesn't actually

say that but instead he says come with me on my boat and we will go on a tizzy wizzy hunt since i know all about tizzy whizzies and you don't that is super fun it's way better than his like dancing and lover's idea imagine in today's though, you meet someone who tells you all about like a cryptid in the area and then just that random person's like, come with me on my boat to go look for them. Like ding, ding, ding, red flag, red flag. You could tell me anything and then say, come get on my boat and it'll be a red flag. Like you could say, I don't even know if there would be anything normal to proceed that with. Come get on my boat is just a red flag there is the stereotype that uh republicans have boats and so for me that's now if i hear i have a boat i have to be like who did

you vote for in 2016 before i get on this boat with you i mean my stepdad has a boat my sister has a boat but they're like the they're like um fixer uppers shall we say. Uh-huh. Yeah. But they're fun. That's very sweet. Yeah. I don't know if I'd trust getting on a fixer upper unless I was with someone who'd done it a few times. Well, that's the thing is only when my stepdad is there will I get on the boat because, yeah. Your stepdad can also fix anything. Yeah, exactly. So like even on the fly if we're, you know, sinking real quick.

We're not sinking. Their boats are not that bad. I'm making it sound really, really not sinking their boats are not that bad i'm making it sound really really trashy it's not that bad but um yeah they like refurbished a boat and reupholstered it and it's really nice but um wow i don't know that's very nice that's just some anecdotal evidence against your your uh republican comment i guess well thank you but i do know at least on the tiktok the side of tiktok i'm on it's a very common to get a video of like yes like trying to appease uh the republican so i can like spend the weekend on his boat oh lord okay so it becomes uh it becomes a trope so uh i don't know who this

man voted for in 2016 probably no one since he was probably dead. Yeah. And also, he lived not in the United States. So I don't think... Anyway. Honestly, this man could have lived on in many ways. He sounds a little out there. For all we know, he moved to the States and lived to be 100 years old. 116 years old in vote.

Could be. He takes them out on this little tizzy whizzy hunt and he has them lying on the ground with their ears to the to the to the woods to the ground um and he has them listening for a tizzy whizzy he's like lord he's like just just listen and let me know if you hear anything because if you hear a little squeaking that's how you know that the tizzy wizzy's nearby oh boy um and so they're all out by the lake by his boat listening to the tizzy wizzy on the ground and all of a sudden the one of them says i think i hear something i think i hear squeaking and the boatman goes quick follow me

and they start running through the woods sprinting through the woods oh my god he says he's uh after they're running for a while he says he saw the tizzy was he run off in one direction towards bell isle and a tourist says wait i was looking over there and i didn't see anything and the boatman said well of course you didn't they're amazing underwater swimmers you wouldn't see anything and the boat man said well of course you didn't they're amazing underwater swimmers you wouldn't see without without a trained eye like me oh boy are these people like for real and like they think this is real i they kept going so i guess they went on someone's boat i was gonna say they're also probably trapped on this uh on this man's boat so so and then they they did believe that when he was like oh well you obviously you didn't see it

because you don't have a trained eye like me sure and they're like oh okay so then they believe him and pay the boat man extra to take him on the to take them on his boat to go over to bell isle to keep searching for him to keep searching for the tizzy wizzy okay and obviously they find nothing um and after this the boat man realizes that this is a new way to cash in on all the tourists coming into town tell them to go look for the tizzy wizzy say it went towards an island get them to go on your boat so you went in two ways and charge them extra if they want to get on the boat to go over to bell isles on a hunt on a hunt for the tizzy wizzy um after all this and he realizes that he can cash in on this he starts taking people on tizzy wizzy hunts and he eventually uses the money to buy treats to lure the tizzy wzy out of hiding in hopes to get a picture.

So at least that's what he told a friend of his who was a photographer. He was like, I'm going to find the Tizzy Wizzy and when I do get a picture of him. So this is now 1906. And what a racket. Five years. Five years of him just, you know, moving and grooving. Bullshitting. bullshitting uh scheming and dreaming i guess we could we could do this for a while so the boatman in 1906 he takes uh he tells the photographer i'm gonna go get the tizzy wizzy once and for all and i'm gonna bring him back to take a picture

so we can use him as use the picture as promo for my tour sure of course he goes on his own tizzy whizzy hunt or so he tells people he puts out ginger biscuits for the tizzy whizzy that was what he apparently knew this guy was gonna love of course and according to what he told other people, a Tizzy Wizzy came right out at the sniff of the ginger biscuits, and he was now face-to-face with a Tizzy Wizzy. And our listeners, sorry, and our listeners at this point don't know what it looks like. So we have, because I know from the description that that spooky gave us, but like they don't even know how big this thing is or anything yet.

So this is going to be quite a shock to everyone's system. They do not. And I have a picture ready to send you when it's time. So these ginger biscuits, they pull out the Tizzy Wizzy. And the boatman allegedly finally catches a Tizzy Wizzy for himself. And it sounds like it was a real struggle to get a hold of the Tizzy Wizzy. The Tizzy Wizzy apparently was squealing and squeaking the whole time. They were really in fisticuffs with each other i suppose and the boatman then brings tizzy

whizzy to the photographer apparently this photographer was at lewis herbert's photographic studio which was opposite saint martin's church so a lot of these directions in case you want to be a part of history you have to go all the way to saint martin's church and then look across the street okay and at this uh photography studio is where he shows the tizzy wizzy to the photographer and the tizzy wizzy is still panicked and a little shell shocked from uh from his fight from being grabbed yeah from being captured and so the way to calm him down obviously was to give him more ginger biscuits and some warm milk okay well that's nice it would maybe calm me down too yeah and when he's calmed down the photographer finally grabs one picture of the tizzy wizzy okay and then the tizzy wizzy takes

off and one source even said he flew out the window oh no so now we can fucking fly and i have a picture for you i'm very excited i've never seen it oh no okay we'll hear have i geo's trio when would i've seen it oh you're certainly about to now send this is the picture the photographer took oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god so uh so this little character flies out the window after a with a warm belly full of ginger biscuits and milk okay and this is a description of him the body i guess everybody knew it was already a hedgehog kind of because i you said because of the conversation yeah but also you said there was a portrait of a hedgehog and he got inspired oh okay yeah so the description is uh this is from one source so i'm just gonna copy

the quote here a body of a hedgehog the wings of a dragonfly the antenna of a bee and a huge fluffy tail like a squirrel and really this is clearly a hedgehog with like a tail wings and antenna just like taped to it looks like it's wearing a bumblebee costume to me yes it does look like it's wearing a bumblebee costume and a tail a squirrel tail also um which means like the struggle must have been just like holding a hedgehog down to be able to tape this onto him poor thing um and this picture by the way uh we will have this on our instagram and it says at the bottom it says the tizzy whizzy found only in bonus bay windermere so yeah really beautifully uh painted sign and i will say i did not think this is how you spelled tizzy whizzy but it's me either t-i-z-z-i-e dash w-h-i-z-i-e

so i guess okay i i thought whizzy would have two Something, yeah. And I thought they'd both end in a Y. Me too. But, you know, clearly I need to take this tour because I have a lot to learn still. You know a hot nothing about this. That's right. I'm just saying. You know a lot about the stroller squad now, but not a lot about the Tizzy Wizzy. So this picture ended up being used on postcards that the boatman would sell on his future tours

and the tizzy wizzy is still known for this exact same description because it's the only picture to ever exist of him and he has a reputation for being very shy a good swimmer a fast runner maybe he can fly and also according to the boatman on his tours, you can only hear the sounds of his faint cries and squeaks when heard at water level. So keep your ear close to the water. Which means, like, does he live underwater? Is that what I'm hearing here? So the boatman did tours like this for the rest of his life. And many say that they only went on the tours just to meet him because it sounded so bizarro yeah and others in the town also began

hosting tizzy wizzy hunts and i guess some of them like would end with like it makes no sense this seems like such like a dude mentality of like oh it's gonna be funny man uh but there was these tizzy wizzy hunts where i guess you they would take you all the way down to like the end of the pier um or like underneath the pier to like finish out your tour and someone ends up getting like pushed in the lake at the end oh like can you imagine like it's not very nice in my mind in the early 1900s everyone was just dressed like many layers to the nines all the time especially if you're on vacation it's like how would you go to the movie theater in the airplane and like your finest church clothes you're wearing i mean you're going on a boat ride like you're not wearing like crocs like i am today

you'd be wearing something quite fancy i imagine yeah so apparently someone always got pushed in which makes me mad for them yeah i don't i feel like that place is probably haunted with just the the vengeful ghosts of those people who got pushed in let's see just the anger of wet clothes and so uh that was i don't know if they still do tizzy wizzy hunts but people in the area do still hope to find a tizzy wizzy uh at least their their tourist friends do in lake. And maybe if you have some ginger biscuits or milk, you might find yourself a little Tizzy Whizzy. I'm obsessed. I'm like fully just enamored with this thing. And I don't know what to do about it.

I love him. I don't know. I love him. I don't know. Especially do. I love him. I don't know. Especially, I have a soft spot for hedgehogs, and so this one just looks like he's just ready for Halloween, which is, by the way, again, for that spooky, when they said that they were going to dress their hedgehog up as the Tizzy Wizzy for Halloween, it makes total sense now that I've seen the picture. It makes sense, doesn't it? And it's such a great costume. Yeah, my brother's obsessed with hedgehogs also, so I feel like he even calls his group the Hogpen. That's very funny. Yeah.

Does your brother know about the Tizzy Wizzy? I don't think so. And so now I feel like I need to inform him immediately. Zandy Zandy Schieffer is about to get one silly present and it's the story life the surprise of his life oh and that was good thank you well thank you for thank you for letting me banter probably a little more than usual probably not any more than usual but thank you for knowing in advance it was coming because i talked to christine yesterday and i was like i i'm not used to my stories being this short I'm probably going to over talk out of nerves so I mean don't worry we

are already at 40 minutes so we've gotten pretty far into the episode already I just opened my phone and I have a text from Blaze saying I know you're recording but I took Leon to the museum I'm like wait what Blaze is such an took Leon to the museum. I'm like, wait, what? Blaze is such an active father. That is so nice. I'm like, all right. He's like, we wanted to walk in the AC. So they're just looking at dino fossils. I'm like, have fun.

We wanted to walk. Do you think babies can sense how miserable heat and humidity is? Yeah, she was so sweaty out there today. And I felt so bad. I had to put like little water on her to cool her down. Wait, even she was sweaty? Oh, very sweaty. Yeah, poor thing. Oh, little bad. I had to put like little water on her to cool her down. Wait, even she was sweaty? Oh, very sweaty. Yeah, poor thing. Aw, little baby. I know.

It was very hot out. So next time I will I don't know what else to do. She doesn't drink water yet so I'm like, I don't know. At what point do babies drink water? I think they can't, like she can but like she doesn't need to because she gets it from formula. So I think at a year old maybe you're supposed to start feeding them water.

That's so wild. In my mind, like we just drink water from the second we're born. I'd never even thought about that. Oh, I lied. Well, oh, yeah, you can feed them water at six months. But after 12 months, their main drink should be like water or something different. Wild. I never I never thought about it it i know it's kind of weird um does she have a new favorite food other than broccoli or is it so great question is it great popsicles i think so she's kind of over um

broccoli and butternut squash because i was like oh she loves it and so i just kept making it and i think she's over it um but she really likes swiss cheese and bread now that's my kind of person right there she's on her way to making herself a good old deli sub right there it basically ends up just being whatever i'm eating i'm like here this is not a choking hazard all right try it and she's pretty um i think she'll be a foodie like her father nice maybe she'll also be a bourbon drinker like him oh lord let's hope not at least not anytime soon well not anytime soon but it's it's in there i think it's in her heart she'll find it for father's day i got please i told you i think a bourbon uh bottle that had like happy first father's day love leona and he was like, so my infant daughter got me some alcohol.

And I was like, yeah, it's not the greatest. I liked it. I liked it. Okay. Well, the fun stops here. Yeah. Well, I hope everyone was in a tizzy with the tizzy whizzy. Yeah, I certainly was.

Now it's over. It's over now. And I will say last week I at least had fun facts at the start about Girl Scouts and cookies. Don't got that for you today. Okay. Thanks for telling us. But I got this end of the story. So at least we're going to get this over with and tell the rest of the story.

Not leave you hanging this time. So, previously on, and that's why we drink. Da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. Ding! Bark! So we are following the murders of Denise Milner, Michelle Gouzet, and Lori Farmer, three Girl Scouts whose lives were taken on the first day of their Girl Scout summer camp in 1977. If you're listening backwards, please listen to the episode beforehand first, because I'm kind of diving into the second half

here, so I don't really have too much detail here. So we've just discovered that two months before summer camp took place, there was a training weekend in April of 77 for the counselors. And on that trip, camp counselor Michelle Hoffman discovered that her tent had been ransacked. You remember that part? I sure do. Someone had eaten all the donuts and left a note beginning with the sentence, we are on a mission to kill three girls in tent one. Yeah. So they had like full warning before children even got there. note beginning with the sentence we are on a mission to kill three girls in tent one yeah so they had like full warning before children even got there and like what do you do you're 18 or 15

or you know i don't know i part of me wants to be like why didn't you tell the police but then i can also see an 18 year old thinking it's a prank but what do you do if you tell the police like they can't do anything do you know what i mean like maybe i've just watched too much law and order i just feel like olivia benson would take it seriously but then i think about like but in every episode someone gets killed so it's like nobody's gotten hurt yet well i really because you were saying in the last episode too the like a lot of people were blaming them but they're also kids i can understand at 18 thinking that's a prank or like someone being silly and like that's not that's not it but they don't know that yet so i don't know i mean how would you think that that's you just think someone has like a shitty sense of

humor and yeah exactly you know um and like kids are dumb like they some kids would probably do something like this and be try to scare the girl camp counselors or something like who knows especially yeah that's a good point especially in the woods when the whole point is like at the whole point but one of the big things you do is like around a campfire try to scare each other yeah exactly um and there was also this like effigy of a man hanging from a tree just like very spooky shit but um cap uh camp staff dismissed it as pranks of bad taste and like again i know people are always like tell the police but sometimes i'm like police can't do anything if you're like oh uh we got this creepy note it's like well what are we they didn't do anything illegal i mean they ate your donuts but

like what are you gonna do about it yeah um so i feel like there's just not much to do and like i'm sure i'm sure looking back of course it's like's like, oh, shit, we got a warning. But I mean, who would have thought? Well, this whole episode, I from the beginning, I've been saying, oh, imagine the survivor's guilt. Yeah, exactly. Let's just tack that on, you know? Yeah, it's hard to imagine. So as interviews were going on after the murders, police began drawing up possible suspects. And originally at the top of the list was a man named Jack Shroff.

So Shroff was a local farmer and it was determined that the tape and nylon rope that was found on the girls and at the crime scene had come directly from his farm. Oh. However, Shroff was quickly crossed off the list as a suspect because he passed a voluntary lie detector test and they basically figured out that the murderer stole the rope and tape from his farm so wrong place wrong time for this guy yeah poor jack schroff yeah yeah not not a good time to be um owning that brand of duct tape i guess right so despite being dismissed as a suspect uh it gets worse for jack shroff because the media hung on to his name and like put his face on the newspaper with the title slayer oh my god basically hung him out to dry and oh shit he got harassed he was threatened um and so like what today's version of doxxed yeah basically and like which is so rough

because he was never even like really considered as part of the you know like he was suspected because of the connection with the duct tape but like he wasn't there was no other evidence like he was an early ruled out suspect exactly and he just got like stuck in his name. Got put on blast. Yeah. It was really rough. But then the police announced a new prime suspect, 34-year-old Native American Cherokee man named Gene Leroy Hart. And his middle name spelled Leroy.

I just want to put out there, most of the people I listened to in the documentary pronounced it Leroy. So I'm just going to go with that. So Gene was serving a 309 year sentence. Oh, my God. Why? For the burglary, kidnapping and rape of two pregnant women in 1966. Oh, so he is much more likely to have done it in my mind. Yeah, already.

Right. Yeah. Already. He had gagged both women duct taped them and left them in the woods to die oh my god but one of the women was able to break out of the duct tape and free both of them oh my god wow okay yeah talk about like a survivor story yeah and so you're thinking well he's serving a 309 year sentence. How could he have done this? Well, he had escaped prison in 1973 and was at large during the murder of Denise, Lori and Michelle. Okay. Got it.

Already looking fishy. So some other strangely convenient facts about Gene Leroy Hart. He grew up a mile away from Camp Scott and was familiar with the area um one of the pregnant women he had kidnapped and raped said that he had used nylon rope and duct tape on her as well and the same woman also remembered that he had made this is bad what she also remembered that he had made these strange guttural sounds as he assaulted her similar to what the camp counselors remembered hearing on the night of the murders well at least that's like some evidence there right like at least that's like proof pointing to a direction yeah i mean i think it's i know this word is kind of annoying but like circumstantial because it's like well you heard a noise that you thought was an animal

yeah i mean it's a it's at least a lead i would consider it a very solid lead i would agree yes um and the same woman said that she and the other pregnant uh victims wore prescription eyeglasses and she remembered gene trying them on so oh okay there was like that thing where he left the glasses at the scene i don't think it was her glasses but like he had taken glasses from another cabin and was like it's just super creepy interesting so gene was swiftly climbing the leaderboard as a key suspect and on june 16th three sniffer dogs called the wonder dogs showed up well that's my favorite part of this entire story. I know. I finally found something to not cry about in this story. They worked for nine days before the Wonder Dogs led investigators to a cave approximately three miles from Camp Scott and, fun fact, 100 feet from Jean's family's home.

Oh, okay. The cave suggested, like the state that it was in suggested someone had been living in it. And inside, they discovered photographs that had been developed of two women, a roll of tape which matched the duct tape at the crime scene, pages from a Tulsa newspaper which matched pages that had been stuffed inside, a flashlight found near the bodies at the crime scene, cigarette butts, four burnt extinguished tobacco piles arranged in a half circle, women's underwear, and a pair of sunglasses in a vinyl case that had been stolen from a counselor at Camp Scott. Yeah, I call that a ring-ding-ding right there. Right? That's a ring-ding-ding.

I think so. So they also investigated another nearby cave where they found writing on the wall that said 77-6-17, which is the date of the murders. And then it said, the killer was here. Bye-bye, fools. Whoa. Well, that's also a ring-ding-ding. Right? Icky, icky, icky. That's also ring-ding-ding.

Right? Icky, icky, icky. So the thing they kind of latched onto were the photographs of the women because they figured, well, if we figure out who these photographs are of, then maybe we can find who was in this cave. So Louis Lindsay, a prison employee and wedding photographer, came forward to police and he was like, those are my photos. I took them. But I was not in that cave. Oh, my God. And it turns out.

By the way, like, what if he's innocent? What a scary thing to have to admit knowing you're just like implicating yourself. You're like, this is so awkward. You're never going to believe what happened. But those are my photos. Girl, this is crazy. And you're not going to believe me, but hear me out out i wouldn't believe it either but just trust me so guess what uh he said oh well i was working in the prison's photo lab and i had a prison inmate working with me named gene leroy hart oh okay well that'll do it so basically he took the photo presumably allegedly

took the photos from the lab and like kept them got it like a creep um so now they're like okay we think we're onto this guy gene we're gonna uh we just need to catch him because he's still on the run so according to the mile higher podcast uh this now led to what would be oklahoma's largest manhunt at the time with the search costing 1.28 million dollars in today's money 1.82 million 28 but yeah 1.28 1.28 whoa so it was a huge search uh meanwhile with news breaking that the perpetrator was a man at large living a low-key life amongst nature surrounding camp scott 400 volunteer locals gathered together on june 24th to kind of just do like a four mile circumference around the camp to

try and find him uh and this is where things get dicey, racially speaking, just because when people, you know, find out that they're searching for a Native American man, the local Native American population understandably gets a little defensive and are like, okay, so you're searching for this guy. So some of the volunteers who showed up for this search were quite drunk and armed. And so it's almost like, it sounds to me like a pitchfork, you know, like, yeah. So I understand why the danger there was kind of present, like a potential danger. Sure. Um, and so, uh, some of the local Native American community turned up to monitor the event just to make sure things didn't get out of hand. Okay. It was just a recipe for trouble.

No discoveries were made from this search. So on the morning of July 28th, security guards at Camp Scott's Great Hall thought they spotted what they later described as a silhouette in the woods, and they went over to investigate. When they couldn't find the person they thought they had seen, they returned to the Great Hall, and they found a pair of shoes with Denise Milner's name on them sitting on the stairs in a bag. Ew. Well, ew, in a bag bag that just makes it extra creepy yeah yeah yeah and like they had not been there before because the security was just there so basically i see sorry yeah so they saw makes it extra worse out in the woods they went to investigate and when they came back someone had placed a bag with denise's shoes got it got it that was stairs that's so sinister and like it almost feels

like because if the cave said like the killer was here bye-bye it almost sounds like i got away with it but he's still lurking and he's like taunting them almost he's like watching his yeah crime scene or whatever watch watching what he did and come to fruition the aftermath of it it's gross and the fact that he kept that and giving them more leads of like oh you thought you found me but you only found this it's like stringing them along and it's it's pretty sick yeah so the tulsa tribune wrote an article the following day titled Shoes Mysteriously Appear at Scout Death Scene. And like just the fact that they thought they saw somebody like he lured them outside just to like put that there. It's so absurdly creepy.

So now they knew that the killer or at least someone linked to the murder because they had her shoes was clearly keeping a close watch and taunting investigators. So to test this, the guards went into the nearby forest and tied thin strings between the trees. And the following day, the strings between the trees had been snapped and footprints were found. So clearly somebody was like lurking around because this camp, for obvious reasons, had been like completely shut down. Yeah. So there should not have been somebody wandering around there but so they did determine somebody was lurking and despite it seeming that gene of all people was so close proximity wise it took 10 months of searching to capture him oh Oh my God. Why? Do we know why? Yes. So on April 6th, 1978, police received a tip that Hart was staying at the home of Sam Pigeon, who was an older

Cherokee medicine man. And according to the Mile Higher podcast, quote, medicine men in Native American culture are traditionally nonjudgmental and open to helping Native Americans that were true believers. That is what their explanation was. I don't I could not anywhere find any other explanation except that Sam Pigeon was just giving him a place to stay and be safe from the elements. And so he was protecting him essentially. And so the police went to Sam Pigeon's house and, sure enough, found him there. He was wearing women's glasses that were thought to have been stolen from Camp Scott. Yeah, because he was trying to mine. Creepy. Yeah.

And he was found with items that were definitely determined to be from Camp Scott, including a blue mirror and a corncob pipe. Probably the only time I've ever heard of that phrase outside of Frosty the Snowman. Sorry, I've never heard anyone actually use one before. Me neither, but I guess maybe it's, I feel like that's something, I don't know, sounds like something you'd do in Oklahoma. It sounds like something that only Frosty the Snowman's ever done. I just like that there's a corncob pipe at the Girl Scout camp. Like who was using that? I feel like that was

like the tough one on the street. She was like, I don't know. I feel like that was like craft hour. They were like, now for Father's Day, we're all going to be making corncob pipes out of our leftover corn. I have no idea why they're're i guess maybe like a camp counselor in my mind this is like why am i gendering a corn cob pipe but i feel like it was like a like a dude that worked at the yeah i mean i said father's day craft so you know i don't know but it just it doesn't feel like something certainly like 13 year old girls are using yeah it was very it was a random thought that crossed my mind of like, who was originally using that? But who knows? But he took it along with a blue mirror. And when they seen a million times but also like you just said you'll never pin it on me without even being confronted so like how do you know what we're here for you all you just outed yourself also

you have things literally from like you there's so much proof there's so what do you mean you what do you mean it's so scary um i mean i think he knew i assume he knew why they were there because he was on the run and they had been looking for him for months so i don't think it was like why why are they here but because also i assume if they arrested him they said it was like for the murder of uh-huh but to say you'll never pin it on me is not the way i think an innocent person would respond if if i got arrested for that you bet your bottom dollar i'd be crying going i didn't do it like not you'll never pin it on me yeah it's just a very creepy way to respond to um very cold to yeah to yeah exactly um it's just a weird thing to say so two years later we're now

at march 19th 1979 the trial begins against gene leroy hart and uh you know it's hard to believe but i think i got a lot of um context from that docu-series I was talking about with Kristen Chenoweth because Gene had a pretty vocal group of supporters who were defending him and part of it I guess was that he was a local boy he had played football he was very you know pillar of the community yeah yeah people were like oh i mean even in the interviews in the show people were like no i like i know him he wouldn't do this and it's like just the ultimate example of you know people just not but also this guy was already in jail for raping two pregnant women did you think he was gonna do that you know what i mean like that's a good point

that's a good point was in prison for something hein, so he can't be that good of a guy. Maybe they just all thought he was getting pinned for the wrong things over and over again or something. Maybe, but I don't even know if he claimed to be innocent of the first crimes. Oh, yeah. You know what I mean? I don't know. Maybe these friends aren't totally with it, I guess. I don't know.

I guess not. I don't know. I guess not. I don't know. So he had quite a group of supporters. And then in addition to the people who knew him from high school, there were also people, Cherokee people, who were, you know, defensive of the fact that basically white people were accusing him of this crime and people were not convinced that he had done it so there was a lot of contention um you know for obvious reasons and so there was this fundraising event in aid of him so that he could afford his defense lawyer and it said there were about 400 supporters in the courtroom what yeah the fact that 400 people I really want that to be like one person and his 399 children. Like it's hard to believe it really is. Wow. He that's, and also goes to

show you how, I mean, we find so many pillars of the community doing this, like the, the power of charisma can really swindle somebody it's shocking it really is and um like i think the hardest part because i obviously like i said got a lot of context from this docuseries about like the racial tension and why people were automatically you know obviously feeling defensive and like feeling infringed upon and like you know they'd already been through so much at the hands of these, you know, of white people. So it's like, you're coming in here and now you're putting someone on trial.

So there's that. But then also on the other side, on the flip side, you think about the families and the parents of these three girls who show up and there's 400 people supporting the person that you think murdered your child. And it's like, it must just be such a hard thing to sit through i don't even know who to feel the worst for at this point i know i know it's it's just an awful i can't imagine them i can't imagine well i can't imagine being a mom obviously but the the experience of seeing so many people going against you when you're just trying to you're

just trying to find the person who killed your baby exactly exactly and i think that kind of got lost in a lot of the shuffle which was really sad and one of the moms who was interviewed i think it was laurie's mom said which i thought was really powerful really interesting she said um at the time she was a lot more naive and she's like looking back i see now like why there was so much more like at the time she was like what the hell is wrong with you people like this man murdered my child and she said like looking back she can see now more of like the inner workings of why this became such a heated uh debate almost but um it was just really hard on the families to go to court and have 400 people obviously sitting there being like he didn't do it and you're just trying to

find some sort of answers yeah and again this guy already was serving a 300 year sentence for raping two pregnant women so i'm like what on earth Like he is clearly not the pillar of the community. Everybody thought he was. Like, how did he not at least lose half of those 400 people in the first situation? Crime? Yeah. So it's, it's a toughie. And like, I don't even feel like I know enough to take any sort of, but it's, it's just, it's just tough. It's very complex. And, you know, it's, again, if you want more context, I would watch that doggie series. It's very interesting. testified against Jean, including expert witnesses, people associated with Camp Scott, and former colleagues and friends of Jean's. And the prosecution, which was headed by a guy named SM Buddy Fallis Jr., were more than confident they had enough evidence to convict him, even though the court had strangely barred the prosecution from referencing any similarities between this crime and the rape of the pregnant

women okay so basically the whole incidence of like they couldn't even talk about the other crime so they couldn't talk about gene's attack on these pregnant women in this trial got it got it which i sort of get but also it's like that to me is already such a powerful like an argument it's such powerful evidence of like look at what this person's capable of if you have people testifying like character witness like oh this guy's a great guy it's like really you know well especially if you have to keep like i understand like that was a separate trial and so you have to keep I understand like the legality of it, but like, it's so important to this person's character.

And like, if you're going to completely different people outside of that situation to be like, this person's amazing. Exactly. Well, that's not the true, that's not a full picture. It's not. And, you know, I don't even really understand the legality of it because he was already convicted of that. It's not like it was like up for debate.

You know, it's just weird to me. It wasn't even alleged. Yeah, exactly. And so I thought that was weird. And so they couldn't say anything like, oh, well, he was already convicted for using nylon rope at this crime. They couldn't like say, oh, the glasses. Oh, the rope. Oh, the duct tape.

So there was just a lot of that was lost. I'd be screaming if I were the lawyer. Oh, the duct tape. So there was just a lot of that was lost. I'd be screaming if I were the lawyer. So frustrated. So frustrating. And so the main pieces of evidence that the prosecution brought up linking Jean to the murder scene were a strand of hair and semen found at the crime scene. Uh, an Oklahoma state bureau chemist testified that the hair on the tape used to tie up Denise was an exact match to Jean or belong to someone who had the same microscopic characteristics as him. And I want to take a moment here, which I think they also brought up on mile higher podcast to say like hair evidence has, it's like kind of largely debunked.

I think now like it's, it's kind of like blood spatter where it's really not as specific and like, as we kind of all thought it was based on like Law and Order episodes and CSI. And so I think if you have the follicle, like maybe you can use that. But I think just looking at a strand of hair ended up being kind of more bunk science than actual factual evidence. But assuming that this is truly the guy, it did work in our favor this time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so for what it's worth, you know, they said, oh, this is an exact match to Gene. And again, I'm not an expert here.

So if I'm wrong about this, please forgive me. This is just what i believe to be true in my research but um so in relation to the semen sample this became a point of contention because gene told the court he had had a vasectomy and so there should not be you know sperm that could link to him however after some tests it was revealed that gene's vasectomy wasn't really successful oh yikes yeah yeah yikes and like it's owns totally separate way like i was gonna say like hmm i think gene himself has his own lawsuit he can be worried about i was like he probably didn't expect that but um that was what was found out because uh a lab technician testified that the

semen sample was in fact genes and so at this point it's sort of like how like this is obviously the guy is what not of what everyone's thinking what i'm thinking and what i think people um who weren't on his side were like well we got this in the bag, you know, like we're set. But I guess they didn't have as strong a case as they thought they did. I'll just put it that way. Sure. So Gene's lawyers had been hired from the city's Native American Center, and they were very, very successful in dissolving the prosecution's arguments. So in relation to the semen, prosecution questioned the the results arguing that what the

investigators were able to determine was only that the semen sample was a match for a non-white male with type o blood and so that's what they told the jury like that's all that they're able to prove um that being said if you really do the math on that, it only corresponded with 0.002% of the population. So, like, that part wasn't, you know, necessarily made clear, but it was very good lawyering of, like, oh, well, it could be someone else and, you know, just leave out the percentage part. Right, right, right, right, right. And so that, you know, I can understand why that would give enough doubt to the jury to be like, well, if it's just a non-white male with this type of blood, I can see why there would be doubt there. In relation to the bloody footprint that was found in tent number eight, it apparently didn't match Gene's foot size and the fingerprint on the flashlight didn't match him either. But what they didn't clarify was that the fingerprint didn't match

anyone because it was only like partial like a really small bit of it and so they said oh well the fingerprint doesn't match him but they said well there isn't a whole fingerprint yeah but they didn't clarify it doesn't match anyone because we can't match it to anyone so it's like a lot again it's good lawyering yeah it's like kind of telling Again, it's good lawyering. Yeah. It's like kind of telling it, spinning it in a certain way. And the defense also had a great roll call of witnesses, one of which was a local waitress named Dean Boyd. And Dean took the stand and told the court that she had seen a man named William Stevens in the cafe on Monday morning. And William Stevens was a convicted rapist. And so basically now they're like pointing to someone else as part of their defense.

And so she testified that he was looking really nervous and she saw him lurking around the cafe. And then an 11 year old scout, Girl Scout also took the stand and told the court that she had also seen William Stevens around the campsite before the murders. Wow. A friend of William Stevens named Wayne Peters confessed to loaning Stevens a red flashlight and said that on June 13th he had come home, he had come to Peters' home with bloodied boots and scratches on his body. So now they're building a whole case against this other guy. Wow. So he really, this guy really was like shockingly not wrong when he said, you won't be able to pin it

on me. Yes. That's sick. That's really gross. The cockiness was like warranted, I guess. I really wanted him to have to eat his words. I know. I know. It's very frustrating. So to top this all off, the friend Peters told the court that one night when the two were drunk, Stevens confessed to the murders. And I mean, I'm thinking, isn't that hearsay? Like, oh, he said he did it, whatever. So though Stevens predictably denied having anything to do with it, they collected samples from the scene. samples from the scene. They didn't match him anyway, so I don't think they were ever going to really build a case on him, but it was more just to throw doubt about Jean into the case. So the trial lasted until May 30th, 1979, and the jury only deliberated for five minutes. Wow. And it was not good up for us, was it? No, they found Jean not guilty of the rape and murder of Denise, Lori and Michelle. And for them, there was enough reasonable doubt. I think the prosecution really felt like they had it in the bag and were feeling a little too confident and didn't think through like all the ways that this could have been spun. And according to Denise's mother, Betty Milner,

she remembers that after he was acquitted, people started cheering and rejoicing, and it just must feel so awful to be sitting there. Yeah, I just can't imagine. No. And so he did technically win this case, but he obviously had to return to prison for his 300 year sentence anyway. Right. Hope you enjoyed your vacation out here. Yeah. Must be nice. But honestly, like it's still not really I mean, I guess there is still some victory in the fact that like, oh, he would be accused and proven in front of everyone to be guilty. But it still wouldn't feel good to know that like well he was already going to live out his life in jail anyway i feel like he wasn't given

up proper i don't know what the proper punishment would be but it's like someone beat us to that with a different i know like he was already in prison and it's just so frustrated yeah it's very frustrating and i mean i wish at least they could have gotten some justice, which, again, that's something like I think we probably can't even understand because we're not in that position, thank God. But yeah, I imagine it would at least be really a sense of closure or at least from what I've read and heard people say that like when nobody is convicted, there's just this like question mark almost even if you feel like you know who did it yeah so this 300 year sentence was cut short when two months after the verdict gene leroy hart died of a heart attack in the um prison's like exercise yard basically wow i feel like all of this was very unfair he was 35 only i know wow i don't know how to feel about that i don't like it i don't like it at all but i just like damn like didn't even have i i mean i guess you're dead that's that's a pretty bad punishment but also

like you don't even have to suffer for as long as my brain tells me rightfully should have. Yeah. And there was a little bit of controversy surrounding that because some people thought he's been he was poisoned or that like somebody had killed him. But then they did an autopsy and they determined that he died of a heart attack. And when they spoke to his mother, actually, she explained that his brother had died of a heart attack and when they spoke to his mother actually she explained that his brother had died of a heart attack in his 40s so oh shit they just had clearly like a you know bad genetic heart situation going on and so um this is probably not gonna be surprising but it's still just kind of like i don't know affronting um his funeral uh was attended by 1300 people i'm sorry did you say 1300 yeah 1300 people went to his funeral and i assumed they were all like to like to like friends

more than him yeah i really wanted to be 1300 people saying that's right fuck you yeah no no wow wow um also how do you know 1300 people that are willing to travel to a funeral well i know that's such a all the locals i think it was just people in the cherokee tribe who were like just or you know or his friends from high school or people who are supporting him not necessarily knowing him even just like supporting him on the basis of like we don't think we think he's getting unfairly um uh accused or you know what have you um because he it was like a big media sensation and i think part of the kind of icky part too is if you watch some of the press conferences you can see them asking him questions in press conferences like and he's looking all smiley and they're like oh well uh what do you

think about watergate and it's like oh what this guy is accused of raping and murdering children and you're like hey bud what do you think of watergate what are your yeah what's your hot take on politics and it's like just a so schmoozy it does it's so weird to me and like talk about eking me out i felt like i felt really weird about it and like even if because this was even before he was um acquitted so it was like he's on trial for this whether he did it or not it's like just so weird to me that he was able to get such a kind of rally going for him that's so weird it is it's very weird um especially of all crimes you know you'd think like yeah this is not the one he's got a handful he's got yeah he's got a really bad really bad like indefensible crimes that like

he's being accused of so it's hard it's hard to wrap your head around i guess um there's been a lot of further speculation obviously um especially after he passed away so suddenly and there was not any closure really um so here's some weird shit that like went down afterwards so in 1989 a reverend named Gerald Manley, who attended the preliminary hearing and the trial as an observer, came forward to the media to reveal that he had been present during the murder. What? I know. What? Sorry.

What? Come again? What did you say? Next I'm going to hear like 1,300 people attended the murder. And I'm going to be like, what is going on with this story and so he told them there were four perpetrators okay and he said one of whom was called leroy which i assume he's talking about leroy um and he would be able to identify two of them although although maybe Leroy. I think he's talking about a different Leroy, I guess, because he says he was present and he one of the guys was called Leroy and he would be able to identify two of the other perpetrators. So this is his story.

According to Dallas News, he had gone in to tell the police his story six times in three years, but they were unconvinced of his involvement. Oh, so already weird situation. So a private investigator named Ted LaTurner spoke to Manley, who revealed the full story under hypnosis. Okay. What is going on? Hang on. I know.

As well as passed a polygraph test. So at the very least, I think this guy believes his story. Whether it's true or not, I think he seems to be convinced about it. Okay. And so Gerald is a Methodist pastor. He lived about 11 miles away from Locust Grove, story whether it's true or not i think he seems to be convinced about it okay um and so gerald is a methodist pastor he lived about 11 miles away from locust grove and he told the private investigator under hypnosis i think that on june 13th 1977 the day of the murders he had been driving and ran out of gas when two young men stopped to help him he befriended the men who

had been drinking and they drove him to get gas and in the car he overheard them discussing how they had stolen a purse from camp scott and stolen wire and tape from the shroff farm oh shit gerald the reverend or the minister decided they were quote in need of a christian influence girl what girl what oh my god okay so that feels like that's like a ding ding ding to me so he's like these fellows are up to no good and so either way they get his gas drop him back off at his car and he goes off to meet a friend in tulsa but they all keep in touch oh thank god old friends but i guess gerald meets up with them later that week and they play dominoes together and have a great old time hanging out and then on the night of the killings

he drove around the locust grove area in search of one of his acquaintances parked his car and went to sleep near camp sc. Sometime later, he was awakened by one of his domino partners who wanted Gerald to come with him to go down to where some of the guys are. After a brief drive and hike, he found himself in the Girl Scout camp being led by his acquaintance into a tent. In the darkness, he said he could see at least four men in or around the tent, two of his domino partners and two men he didn't know. Oh, shit. He said once inside with only light from a partially covered flashlight, he said he saw the body of a girl on the wooden floor

and he saw two sleeping bags containing bodies. Whoa. He said, I was scared to death. I didn't know whether they'd kill me or not. After he had been in the tent a short time, the men decided to leave carrying the bodies with them about 150 yards down a path leading to a service gate. The men became frightened,

dropped the bodies and ran in separate directions. And he said with the first hint of sun coming up, he finally made his way back to his car and drove nearby to a town called Chuteau to have coffee. Oh, this was a very, that was a lot of chaotic turns like what is going on here so yeah i don't i'm very i don't know what to say and i'm realizing that i said like on the day of the murders he befriended these guys and they stayed in touch

but that doesn't make sense because right i think I must have written that down wrong. I assume he had met them when he ran out of gas that one day and then they met up later on the day of the murders to play dominoes. I'm assuming is what happened based on the story. But he explains that he had coffee and didn't tell anybody because he was afraid of the men. So he didn't call the police. Okay. didn't tell anybody because he was afraid of the men so he didn't call the police okay well it's just hard to believe that a minister who sees three dead bodies of little girls like just goes have a coffee and it's like like unfazed i'll just keep my mouth shut yeah it's i think i need a cold brew like that's what that's it me too um he's just so bizarre so though the state investigation bureau director robert hicks said that they couldn't find

any corroborating evidence to support gerald's case several people who knew the minister said it was uncharacteristic for him to lie or attempt to draw attention to himself but i'm i'm like but yeah but y'all also said that uh that what's his name was that leroy that heart was like a fucking pillar of the community so i don't know if i trust your trust you on that but it's just odd so like it's hard to know if this is something that really happened if he just kind of developed the story subconsciously and like it came out during hypnosis if he's like just disturbed like i don't know what the i don't even know what answer i want i don't either i don't either i can understand like not wanting to say anything because you're scared they'd find you since they like know where you play dominoes i guess but like i feel like i

would just i don't know i feel like and it did say that he went in six times to police after Gene's arrest, and they just didn't believe him. So I'm like, it's not like he never told anybody. It's like they just dismissed him. I mean, maybe he's telling the truth. I don't know. I don't know. I really don't know, actually. And I want to add to that, like, there was there were reports of people at the camp saw multiple flashlights or lights. Well, that was then that would make sense.

Right. Yeah. But it's hard. It's also hard for me to believe that for people. And then I guess it would make sense for some things with like the footprint and the fingerprint not matching up or something like that or yeah i don't know but then you would have thought like well i was gonna say laroi would have happily told people like oh there were three other people but then like no he wouldn't have because he would have been implicating himself that he was

there to begin right so right right right. This is a thinker, man. It's a thinker. I still feel like he did it. No. Me too. I wasn't there. But what I would tell myself at the end of the story is, oh, it feels like he did it. No.

Yeah. I mean, but it's just like, did he do it alone or did he do it with. I think he did it alone. Three other people. Yeah. I'm inclined to think that way too um and it's like i i just feel like it's so hard for it would be so hard for four people to pull this off and not ever say anything or get in any sort of yeah trouble or not say something while drunk sometime and right it's just weird to me that if it did happen and there

were four people who all got away with it it's like in a bad way impressive yeah yeah yeah i mean and i wonder if it just died with gene when he had the heart attack and that was a lot you know i don't know i don't know um so anyway the Farmer, Gouzet, and Milner remain unsolved, unfortunately, and everyone, especially their families, are still hoping for closure after all this time. And though there is plenty of evidence to suggest that Jean Leroy Hart is responsible, it's another common theory that this could have been multiple people. I think you and I were both kind of stuck on that. And the girls at camp specifically describing there being multiple flashlights is part of that evidence. And so firstly, we have to take into account Gerald's story, the pastor, even though it seems a little wacky, like, you know, maybe he's telling the truth and this really happened. Secondly, Sherry Farmer, Lori's mom, has commented saying, I have always felt in my gut there was a girl

present. Oh, what? Interesting. And she said, and given the DNA results, you have to wonder if there wasn't also a female who took part in the murders. And in that quote, she's referencing how in 2008, the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation retested samples from the crime scene and found that one of the girls pillowcases contained a DNA sample that didn't match any of the girls but at the same time like at a Girl Scout camp it wouldn't surprise me touching everything yeah it wouldn't surprise me if like another girl's hair got on their pillow or something so right I don't think that's like a slam dunk um and then in 2011 uh john russell a man convicted of embezzlement and check fraud who served his time in ottawa county jail said

that another inmate named carl lee myers who was guilty of the 1996 murder of Cindy Marzano also confessed to being the Girl Scout murderer. Oh, yeah. Jeez. Okay. Just casually. And before Myers died in prison in 2012, authorities were able to link him to the rape and murder of Sean Williams, but not the Girl Scout murders. And John Russell, the guy in prison for the embezzlement and check fraud, said he wanted

to make a film about the Girl Scout murder case called Candles. Gross. But that hasn't come to fruition yet. So I don't really know what that's about. So we've pretty much reached almost the end of the story. And so I guess let's just bring it back to Lori, Denise and Michelle's families. I guess let's just bring it back to Lori, Denise, and Michelle's families. Ever since Denise's murder, Betty Milner spoke to Tulsa World and explained, this makes me very sad, that she was too overwhelmed with her daughter's death that she has been unable to visit her grave after all this time.

I don't blame her. It's so tragic. I think everyone, everyone grieves different. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Michelle Gousset's father, Richard, went on to found the Victims Bill of Rights in Oklahoma, born out of Richard and his wife feeling like law enforcement ignored them. According to Ranker, he established this bill to keep victims and families involved in every step of the legal process. The compensation board helps provide victims and their family members with money to assist with expenses like medical bills. So that's pretty awesome. Lori Farmer's mother, Sherry, went on to create something called the Oklahoma Strand of Parents of Murdered Children Organization, which provides families with care. And according to News on 6, quote, losing her daughter, Lori Farmer, in 1977 changed her life forever. And she has spoken up since that day to make sure laurie's life will always matter and so as for camp scott it was immediately shut down

and remains abandoned to this very day uh and there are photos and people go there just to like kind of lurk around and like it's very spooky as you can imagine it's just like an abandoned girl scout camp where three people were murdered it's very i, as you can imagine. It's just like an abandoned Girl Scout camp where three people were murdered. It's very spooky. I can only imagine the people who have gone there just to do a Ouija board or something. It's not cute. Don't do that. Don't do that, folks.

And so anyway, there's a lot of sources, a bunch of sources. A lot of people have talked about this and covered this. a bunch of sources. A lot of people have talked about this and covered this. One of the websites that was most useful is called girlscoutmurders.com, where they really go through everything, as well as the YouTube documentary, Someone Cry for the Children, the Oklahoma Girl Scout Murders. And then, of course, the docu-series I was watching on Hulu called Keeper of the Ashes, which is sort of partially hosted by Kristen Chenoweth, who's from that area. And that came out in May. So that was like a very recent. So wild. Great timing for you to cover it now.

Because I put it off for so long. Yeah. Well, yikes. And it's just like so rough because there's no closure and like you really wanted to get that justice and it just never happened. And yeah, it's just sad. So, I mean, hopefully you never know. Like, you know, 50 years ago, nobody knew we'd be able to analyze DNA someday. So maybe there's some way we'll be able to close the case. But yeah, I definitely think one day there's going to be some practice we do now where they're going to be like that was not good but we've got something so much better yeah like when i mean yeah who knows what someday they'll be like face palming about yeah you know like how we now like how people would like clean up like uh crime scenes or like move everything around or not

touch things or now now i'm just like what in the world were you doing i feel like thinking people are totally gonna do that one day they're gonna watch law and order and go every episode's oh yeah we're gonna like take photos of a scene they're gonna be like a photo you're not taking a holographic right gram blah blah blah a time rewinder to see who did it i I've always assumed at some point there's going to be a time rewinder. I think about that a lot, Em. I think about it weirdly a lot because I feel like then

they're going to, I think it's going to, when time travel is invented, if it hasn't already been invented, but if it's been invented in the future, that technically means it's been invented in the past. You just gave me chills. I'm just saying, if you can go to the past from the future, you can time travel in the past. you just give me chills i'm just saying if you can go to the past from the future that's a really time travel in the fucking good point uh it is weird

that in the future that we don't know about yet maybe they are solving crimes already and they're just being sneaky about it we don't even know that is a very interesting point um oh my gosh that my head talk about headaches i'm like overwhelmed by the thought. I used to get, have that thought whenever my brother and I would get into like a really bad argument. I do too. I do it all the time. Anytime I do something, I'm like not super proud of, like, I don't know what it like, if I pick a wedgie, like something stupid, I'm like, someone can see. Oh, I'm talking about like, if we'd get into an argument, I'd be like, I want to rewind time to prove to him that I was right. Like, I'll be like, no, I said this. argument i'd be like i want to rewind time to prove to him that i was right like i'll be like no i said this and it'll be like no you said this no i said this and there's

just like no way of winning and i'm like i wish we could just like rewind for a few seconds i would love to play that game with allison because there's a lot of things she says that she does not remember and i'm like girl we've done this you said that yeah exactly so that's when i think about it but who knows no i see i'm always paranoid i'm like what if like time travel already exists and i imagine people who are a part of like the time travel patrol or whatever it is they also like get like invisibility cloaks or something yeah there must be some way of covering your tracks if it does exist because well if it didn't exist by time time travel exists you can just go

further into the future and grab that technology and then you've got it like once you've got time travel anything's possible whoa but i always think that like someone is this is like like the definition of fucking paranoia but uh i always feel like anytime i do something like pick a wedgie and i'm by myself i'm'm like someone, it has time traveled to this period and is in an invisibility cloak and is staring at me from the corner of the room and just watched me totally embarrass myself. Well, that would be weirder for them. Sometimes I feel like it's like my ancestors being like, I wonder what grandpapa was like. And it's just me picking wedgies all the time. Yeah, well, that's the thing too that I think of is like, I just

always assume a ghost is watching me like pick my nose or whatever. I, well, that's the thing, too, that I think of is, like, I just always assume a ghost is watching me, like, pick my nose or whatever. I'm like, there's definitely a ghost watching me do this. I guess that's true. And I like to think, oh, well, ghosts are at least we can guarantee those are from the past, not the future. That's true. But I don't know. Do ghosts see time the same way? Because

they might just be interdimensional and can go wherever they want. What if a ghost that is haunting you right now is actually a future relative of yours that died and they're just fucking around honestly it could get crazy that's why when people are uh when you're on a ouija board and you don't know the name maybe it's your future great great great great grandchild's who died and then is traveling through time just to check in on everyone there's nothing better to do than play ouija board with you i would if i were a ghost and had is traveling through time just to check in on everyone. There's nothing better to do than play Ouija board with you. I would.

If I were a ghost and had the ability to time travel now, absolutely I'd be going back to see my old parents' parents' parents. I don't think I want to know what they were doing. I think I would just be disappointed in them. Well, there's certain people I definitely feel that way about. But there's other people where, like, I gotta know. I want to know, like, what some people were, like, up to as little kids. I think that'd be so fun. What if can't okay well never mind okay it's my own brain is breaking

you're probably just picking their wedgies just like you i know it i know it well we got to do a little aftermath but um i have to pee first so let's wrap this baby up and that's why we pee