And That's Why We Drink - E290 Psychic Surgery Dreams and Christine's Principles of Magic

Episode Date: August 28, 2022

It's episode 290 and we're officially in the Troll Hole! This week Em brings us some nicks, knacks, nooks and crannies as well as the scary story of the Moundsville Penitentiary, just down the street from Mothman's hometown in West Virginia. Then Christine starts a two-parter for us on the wild and chilling tale of the Children of Thunder. Tune in to find out the most Gemini rule of all time... and that's why we drink!

oh wait ta-da the troll hole yeah you've seen it quite a few times now but um i think the the public is i was i was waiting for you to announce it yeah look how beautiful it is i forgot i was like it's silent i'm supposed to say something here yes here is here she is she's a little unfinished she's a little unfinished on this side where is it there um i know that i'm going to buy other unnecessary bullshit so i just left a space so smart that's so smart i know but anyway here she is from one angle in all her glory in all her glory there's a whole bunch of other stuff going on on the other walls but this is we're posting on patreon the uh the introduction to the troll hole video where

i got the full tour and m gave me the full tour and showed me all the different little uh And Em gave me the full tour and showed me all the different little nooks and crannies and knacks. Nooks and knacks and nooks and crannies. All of it. But just like how I told you from the very beginning of your time seeing the troll hole, my head perfectly fits the shield. So only when I do a quick dart does anyone see it. But once again, you know, we fidget a lot. So I feel like you'll move enough for it to be spotted every now and then. Well, anyway, I'm very glad.

The only thing I have left to figure out is lighting. I can't tell if the lighting is good. The lighting looks great to me. Really? Yeah, it does look really good. Like the background almost looks like in a good way almost looks like a green screen like you have a fake background up and i know it's real which makes it so much cooler but oh thank you well i i feel like it's a little dark behind me but i i'm i'm

not like a master lighter or anything so this is what we've got what we're working with great thank you oh my gosh okay well anyway, welcome everybody officially to the Troll Hole. What an honor to be here. Thank you. At the end, that's all I've got, I think. I'm overwhelmed now. Is that why you drink this week? Sure. Oh, yes. I drink because... No. I drink because... no i drink because what's happening but a dirty um i drink because i got my i'm supposed to get my surgery date today they're gonna call me but i have i have a feeling i know what day it's gonna be on and day why do you have a feeling because i already gave them

options oh i was like did you have a psychic dream about your surgery? Okay. I already gave them options and I gave them very few. Because they only do it on Thursday mornings. And I was like, well, there's only so many Thursdays left before we go back on tour. And I drink because I'm a little discouraged about the surgery. Just because I found out it's not a 95 success rate it's an 80 success rate which feels drastically different if it's pretty good but i feel like it's not enough to calm my anxiety from always being nervous that there's a 20 chance it didn't work and well is there a way to know if it's going to work or not really no i just have to wait for it to happen again no so

you're just gonna sit in the rest of time to wait for it to happen again no so you're just gonna sit in the rest of time just like oh it might happen again no don't do that just just listen just be like i'm one of the 80 percent of people because what's the point if it did work and then you just spend the rest of your life being scared it's gonna happen like what good is that what was the point i i but yeah i i appreciate the pep talk but also i and i there's no turning off the anxiety so i i don't know he did tell me he was like oh um yeah it usually takes people like three or four years to not have anxiety about it anymore once they and i was like three or four years i was like so i'm gonna have to wait that long until i am not stressed about this all the

time wondering because like i mean there's so many times where like like when i'm on a plane So I'm going to have to wait that long until I am not stressed about this all the time. Wondering. Because like, I mean, there's so many times where like, like when I'm on a plane or when I'm like, like things like that where like there's, if it happens, like I don't even have access to an ambulance. I don't have access to like fixing it. Like I'm just in constant pain. So like there, I'll always be worried, I think in times like that where there's no ability to get help. So that will suck.

But there's 80 percent chance it'll work. But I have been freaking myself out. And then on top of that, there's if it does work. So there was something else discouraging about it, too. I don't know. So I'm just kind of being a Debbie Downer currently. I'm excited to still get it. I'm hoping that it works, but I'll just always, I'll always wonder if it did work.

Yes, I understand that. Maybe it'll be true that like at a certain point you'll realize, oh, I haven't been worried about that in a little while. You know what I mean? Like maybe over time you'll just kind of realize like, oh, that has lessened, that fear has lessened. Yeah, it's just going to take a while. So I'll still be panicked on tour because I'll have only been like a week out of surgery. But I thought we were in the clear on that front. I did too. I'm really, I'm really not feeling it. But you know, we'll, we'll find out the hard way, I guess if an ambulance comes to the show, wouldn't be our first time. So, you know,

wouldn't be our first time would be our first time for us to be carted onto the ambulance wouldn't be the first time it would be probably the third time an ambulance has appeared at one of our shows oh it would be the third right because that one time in nashville nashville and then brooklyn brooklyn and wherever i am god everyone if an ambulance does show up because of me though they're everyone's gonna know i have to take that stupid adenosine and i'm having like a spiritual experience backstage oh boy oh boy oh yeah i'll hold your hand anyway why do you drink christine well emothy i went into starbucks and i'll tell you what I drink first. I walked into a Starbucks and I saw this beautiful bejeweled cup. Yes. And I love an ombre and I'm

just in like a pink phase lately. As you know, I'm just loving like the pink. Giving a little bisexual flag. Oh, I didn't even think about that. It is. I love that. Okay. So I went in and I was like that cup and it was like at the target Starbucks. And I was like, Oh my God, it's $25. You kidding me? And then I went up to the front and I was like, how many rewards points do I have? And they were like, Oh, we'll check if you have enough. And they were like, Oh, you have enough to buy two of those. I was like, hell yeah. So I bought one, but I have enough to buy another one if I ever need to. Um, but it's my new favorite cup. I just, I'm drinking water out of it,

but I'm very into it. It's just this kind of aggressively, like my mom came over and was like, what is that? And I was like, you know what? Don't diss my cup. I,

you know, I, I always forget about the points at Starbucks, which is so bad. I'm sure I've got like, that's why they were like, you could buy multi $50 worth of merchandise. I wonder if's a time a timer on that because i don't think so oh all right well that works out because i literally never redeem mine i never redeem mine either

because i always because i just never think about it me neither um and so and now you can do it when you order ahead on the app you can also uh use your reward points for that oh that's fun yeah that's fun yeah i'm learning uh what are you're drinking water just water i'm being born i drank a little too much wine last night oh but did you have fun oh i had a great time good by myself while blaze went to sleep early uh no here's what i'm doing. Okay, first of all, I want to give a quick shout out to Lisa Lampanelli because she showed up at my house last week. And it doesn't look like it right now. But do you remember that closet over there? That was just like piles and piles of like crap. And I remember because I tried. I tried being Snoopy one time. Yeah, you left me alone in your

house. And I couldn't even get through it. No, no, it's so much. She went through, she spent probably 18 to 20 hours just sorting my closets and she cleaned out, she took, I think like 12 giant boxes to Goodwill. She took stuff to the dump. She took stuff recycling. She went through my room over here and set up an entire like cricket space for my cricket machine. Oh, my gosh. And all my shipping materials cleared out the entire hallway, then went down into our bedroom and into the closet. Remember how you were going to do that closet? That's just like a shit show of piles of stuff. Yeah.

Cleared out the whole thing, like put the shoes in organized bins. I mean, it's like one of those TV shows. Like I felt like I was on that TV show, the home edit, and she like labeled everything. And there's like a box of cords, a box of like, uh, SD cards, camera equipment. It is, I've spent more time in this freaking podcast room. Oh. And then she hung up all my pictures. She bought frames for everything. There was a whole pile of like stuff to be framed. And she went and bought frames for everything. And then when I was at a soccer game with my brother and Blaze, I got home afterwards. She just hung stuff up and she's

like, you can move it. But I wanted to get it off the floor. And then she cleared out Blaze's office. I mean, this woman showed up for four days and we didn't see her for like the entire time. You know, she's pretty sprightly. Like I feel like every time I've seen her, she's on the go for something. She's always. And she always has her beverages, at least four beverages. It's just on the go with her to-go cups, you know?

I'm not, I feel like, I mean, it sounds like what she did was incredible, but I feel like you want me to be surprised. But this really is just like her vibe. She really just swoops in and is just helpful every time I've ever met her and she kept checking in like hey I don't want you to feel like I'm overbearing and I'm like no I needed someone to come in and say like keep donate talk you know keep donate keep donate and I just was like I needed this because my mom and I have tried to clear it out but we get too hung up on stuff and

like it's too personal you know what I mean and so she just came in and was like didn't give and I have tried to clear it out but we get too hung up on stuff and like it's too personal you know what I mean and so she just came in and was like didn't get and I every time I would like open a journal and I'd be like let me read this to you and she was like put that down it's not the time next object and I was like okay I I love I love the feeling of a clean place I've actually been on the move with that too granted I don't have like a four-story house not including the basement but um i i my tiny little apartment shockingly has a lot of apartments get so cluttered so cluttered i remember your other apartment you're like you're um when we first started the podcast and it looked really like it didn't look cluttered. But the second you open a closet door, it's all you have to hold everything in the home.

And so I just cleaned out my closet door. We had, did you ever watch the Friends episode? We're like, oh, yeah, the closet, the closet door. And it was just like water falled out. Her secret. Her secret. That's what my that's what my closet has looked like for a long time to a point where allison and i if we needed something from there we would just give up on the project

entirely we were like well i'm not opening the door so um and now it's officially clean everything's got its own beautiful its own little bins just like you which is so funny because i just finished labeling a bin for cords as you say that so anyway i'm i'm very uh aware of the feeling of cleanse that must be over here right now the thing about it too is that like it's it's one of those feelings where you know i'm messy and i joke about it and like i have a trash pile and stuff i don't like to be that way it's just like i'm it's just adhd yeah it might be i don't know what it is but it's some probably some sort of mental illness. But I'm just like a disaster.

And I just I'm so bad at organizing. But I like things to be clean and I feel so much better mentally if things are clean. And so having everything cleared out and just like organized and everything in sight. So like I know what I have and what I don't. The batteries are organized. I was like, this is life changing. And now what I do is if I like leave something out, um, then I say to myself, what if Lisa were watching? What would Lisa do? WWLD. And I go put it away. And so, I mean, right here, this is, uh, clearly very messy right now, but I was just doing my, my nails. Um, so, uh, that's going to go away.

I got to tell you, L ll would be real pissed at you she's not gonna she's not gonna love it okay um but uh the other thing i'm the reason i'm drinking the reason i drank so much last night side note is because i'm planning leona's first birthday party and it is so extra i'm literally texting people including you around the nation to be like come to this party because it's going to be a blast. And there's like several podcasters I'm inviting. I'm just so amped about it. It's going to be a good time. So no pressure.

Okay. But you're invited. I think you said there was a succulent situation. Oh, my God. There's decorate your own succulents. There's a photo booth. There is a bar. There's going to's gonna be okay let me show you this here's the invitation i'm gonna cover up my address for obvious reasons thank you finally

i know for once okay but look how cute the invite is oh she's a wild one yeah so we're gonna mail these out today um and no pressure because i know it's a big one. Yeah. So we're going to mail these out today. And no pressure because I know it's a big trip, but I'm inviting everybody that I can think of. Anyway, that's all. That's why I drink. But I'm excited for my ghost story today. Oh, thank you. Real quick.

What is this Marco Polo nonsense you keep sending me? Oh, oops. Did you read it? Did you watch it? I saw a. Is it a pre video that you sent me? I don't know. Um, did you send me, it was a drawing of a penis. Okay. I didn't know if you had seen it. Um, so is that what it was? It's an app. And, uh, I tried to send you a video of myself using the app for the first time apparently it's like you leave video messages for people so it's like facetiming but you don't need to be like on the

phone you know what i mean like i'm like hey how are you uh here's like okay here's the example oh hey what do you think of these merch options i like this one this one this one okay talk to you later and then like later, you can hop on anytime you're free and be like, circle the one and be like, oh, I like this one and this one too, but I don't like this one. Maybe we can, you know? And so it's kind of like a helpful little tool for that. Gotcha. All I saw was you go, hi. And then you just drew a penis and then the video ended or you can do that and blaze was sleeping and i was like blaze say hi and he was like please get out of our room um eva texted and said that her friends are also on marco polo so i guess that's what i'm saying is i keep hearing okay

eva i'm inviting you because i also want to be real christine has forced eva and I to be on Be Real. Welcome to the club. It's really, I don't know. It's fine. I'm just inviting everybody. Well, did you see my post the other day with the alien? No. I literally posted it for you. I posted my alien magnet poetry that you had given me. Oh, yes, I did.

Are they straight or do the, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, good. I'm just so glad. I'm relieved because I made that all for you. Oh, thank you. You're welcome. I appreciate it. So anyway, that's all.

So let's do Marco Polo for fun. I don't really know what it is, but I feel like we're going to have a great time. Sure. When Christine's having a good time, we all better be having a good time. It's like me and Slack. I'm like, this is our new reality.

Join it. Oh, I hate Slack. No. No, don't be surprised. I have complained about Slack. I know everyone else loves it and I'm the odd man out. I think no one loves it except in our group because it finally lets Eva take a breath every now and then. That's the only reason I have not complained about it.

I've complained about it in a way where we need to stop doing it but i will keep complaining about it because my head just doesn't just freaking group chats and you would just we would just ignore them i know i know but my head just doesn't work when we could just ignore them but you know what well i'm gonna marco polo you later about this. Yeah. Okay. Great. I'll not look at it. Probably. Knowing my habits. Okay.

Well, this story today, Christine, is another one of those episodes where I am convinced I covered it before, but apparently not. According to the episode guide, I'm kind of what I'm gaslight covered it before, but apparently not, according to the episode guide. I'm kind of gaslighting myself that the episode guide I wrote is not accurate or something, because I keep thinking I've covered things, and maybe I really haven't, but I don't know. It is the West Virginia or the Moundsville Penitentiary. That sounds really familiar, Em.

Right? Hmm. Right, right, right? And I wouldn't have covered it at a live show because we haven't been to West Virginia. Yeah, but maybe this is another thing where you were a guest on a show like Wine and Crime and you did it there.

Maybe, but I even looked through my notes. I couldn't find the notes. Oh, maybe not. But then maybe I deleted the notes? I don't know. Knowing us, it could be any of the above it could be in the recycle bin as we speak um yeah i don't know i'm sure someone will have something to say about it so you know go ahead let us know um but anyway i am kind of i guess i guess we've never covered it so here we go if we have here's a revisiting

if we if we have then like consider this just a follow-up you know yeah i i probably i feel like people are probably going to start getting annoyed being like do they just like not check to see if they've covered a story before i have i just don't fucking i don't see proof of it wherever it is annoyed like you didn't cover it. Just cover it. Okay. Well, then here we go. Okay. And if I've covered it before and it really irks you that badly, then go listen to another

episode. I feel like no one's going to be irked. We're just over paranoid. You know what I mean? Probably so. Okay. So here we go. Moundsville is in Northwest West Virginia.

Okay. Northwest West Virginia. Northwest West Virginia. It felt a little head, shoulders, knees, and toes there. It did. But I'm following. I am. Yeah. Okay. So it's by the Ohio River.

It's two and a half hours north of Point Pleasant, which is Mothman's home. That's right. And the town is named after burial mounds that 2 000 years ago were built by the adena community adena adena community um but only one fun fact not really fun uh only one of those burial mounds exists today so it's called the grave creek mound and uh that's the only burial mound left. And even though it technically exists, it's been messed with and excavated

probably in a not so tasteful way over the years. And items have been taken from the mound and put into a lot of museums. Cool, great, awesome. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It also happens, the last burial mound to exist in this town

from this indigenous community thousands of years ago happens to sit directly across from this penitentiary. Okay. So obviously people then use the horrible trope that this is why the penitentiary is so haunted because... Right, it couldn't be because it's a frickin' penitentiary. Right haunted because right it couldn't be because it's a freaking penitentiary right because because of this uh cultural difference we can't understand exactly there you go so anyway just wanted to give that a shout out in case um you read up on it and see like oh

it's on a native american native american burial ground and that must mean. You're right. It's like actually there are. We could have also caused the ghosts folks. Okay. So anyway. That is my little soapbox that I'm now stepping down from. So in 1876 the penitentiary was open. And it stayed open until. That's the year my house was built. Sorry.

Cool. I'm sorry. Every time someone says that i'm like i like to think of it in context like oh how weird that they were being built at the same time no i got you i i would have done the i would have shouted the exact same stuff random but also i didn't know your house that means someone was building your house during the centennial that's fun oh i never thought about that but you're 100 right all of a sudden like george washington is just walking around your house in my mind which i know is so stupid they know that's so stupid but that's how my brain is 1876 this was the year that christine's house was built and also the penitentiary opened and the penitentiary uh ran until 1995 do you have any special dates from 1995 i had a fourth birthday

and it was probably fun but i don't remember it what year was andy born 93 93 okay never mind i thought it would have been funny if you like forgot that like there was something else important that year yeah um so this penitentiary if you've ever seen a picture of it, it's got very spooky castle vibes. It's got like that gothic revival situation going on. And when they built it, it went about 25 feet tall originally. Now it's even more castle-y. originally um that's now it's even more castle-y but at the time it started at 25 feet tall and it went five feet underground to avoid escapees oh okay which like i hate the concept of like building something that you know people are going to try to escape out of disturbing so uh we also

see this a lot especially in that time i know i've talked about it with uh i think it's the old charleston jail um there's another jail i don't want to look silly and say the wrong name but i feel like i've covered this a few times now where this prison including those that i've mentioned in the past um they were built by the the original prisoners themselves just to add to the torture of like building a wall around yourself. Again, just like other buildings of this time period that I've covered, it seems several times at this point,

this building was meant to be a self-sustaining city. So it had its own bakery, its own library, its own farm, its own hospital. Eventually it had its own coal mine. And it was meant to be like a its own society and like a reforming kind of a place like everything stays inside yeah at the time it was reforming it at the time it was um like the newest of new with like it had like

it was technically like an occupational therapy of like you're you're not just going for the punishment you're going to become a different person theory i understand but it seems to never quite work out how they intended never works out it's supposed to be like this like like utopia of a prison and uh you know the the prisoners themselves work and earn and all this stuff and it's a place to reinvent yourself i guess but it just never goes well it never goes well um for example of course uh this was supposed to be a good thing but just like every one of these setups i've covered before there always seems to be a significant amount of abuse which i'm not surprised by because if you're making this a this little city or this setup where nothing goes in and nothing goes out no one's

gonna ever hear about abuse that's going on behind the walls where's the oversight yeah exactly so one version of the abuse was that the local townspeople could come into this jail and rent prisoners for forced labor lord i think that happened in the Missouri jail you talked about. I think so. Also, the Eloise Asylum, I think, was something like that. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. That one was an actual hospital, not a prison, I don't think.

But it had very similar... I kept thinking back to the Eloise Asylum as I was covering this. But so, yeah, the townspeople could basically uh force labor on these prisoners so i don't know if you're picking up on the slavery elements here but let me remind you that this penitentiary opened only two years after the civil war ended and we're in west virginia oh boy and uh not only is it two years after the civil war ended, but it's two years after West Virginia abolished slavery, but we're now, they now saw renting a person out for free labor was, uh, a step up, I guess.

Cause it wasn't technically slavery. This part's okay. It's like, can we all agree that this is fine? That's not good. So that was just one way that um the prisoners were suffering uh also there was uh the woman's wing which i feel like i've also covered this in a lot of old-timey jails is that the woman's wing was always considered a a better environment and the quality of life wasn't as terrible but i still don't totally know what that means like

there could have still been rats and disease and you know what i mean but it was maybe it was more spacious and so now it's just like that's all it took and probably more spacious because there were less women going to prison that was the only reason why yeah uh but anyway so the woman's wing was said to be more comfortable but who knows what that means uh the conditions throughout the jail were pretty darn terrible um health conditions were terrible disease was rampant the cells were about four by seven and even though this is already bad that they expected two people to share a four by seven cell three people were usually shoved into each cell um like i said disease was killing uh them in droves plus suicides were very common um no prisoners were safe from the abuse from the system or the staff but especially they weren't safe from other inmates in fact the department of justice called west virginia

penitentiary or moundsville one of the most violent prisons in the u.S. Oh, boy. Only what was it? Only 36 homicides are officially documented at this prison. But realistically, it's probably a much bigger number considering this jail is over 100 years old and it was one of the most violent prisons. I don't think only 36 people died. Clearly not documenting the abuse that goes on so what would motivate them to document the abuse that leads to death that kind of thing bingo bango christine yeah uh listen sometimes i know a thing or two okay like in 1876 your house was built i know you do real good facts what how what year was your mom's house built, the one you grew up in? 1862 or 1860-something. And we saw it was later.

One of our listeners who I've tried to reach out to, but I think she's either over me or changed her email address. I don't know. But she worked in a historic library. That's not right. Like where they have all the old the archives archives archival stuff and so she was able to help me look like backtrack my mom's house and when it turns out it was built like I think 20 or 30 years before like our paperwork says it was so kind of cool and I tried to reach out to her to help me track down information on my house but I think she's

she's moved on I don't know where she is or what she's doing but she's probably like this random person is trusting me with all their personal addresses it's probably not a safe person to become a friend with she was she was a professional in this field and so i was like i will pay you to do this but i don't know i don't know uh she might not do it anymore or who knows but anyway um if you do know somebody and you're not a murderer let me know what a caveat that you just have to blindly trust someone well i i wish you the best of luck to find out more information i would love to know more information on my mom's house too isn't that fun to like be able to look back i don't know i love

that history i'd like to know the ghosts like how'd they get there because we were we built our house so so on the land what was there so what happened yeah i think there might have been a farmhouse there before us and that's i know that doesn't make it better okay who do you listen who where are you my friend who helped me with the other house i don't want to say oh i. Oh, I thought you meant me. I was like, I'm right fucking here. And where did you go? Are you kidding me? Yeah, wherever that person is, help us. Remember yesterday when we were recording rituals and your camera froze and I said, oh, I didn't know where you went.

And you went, oh, I'm right here. I was like, okay, I know where you are. I just mean, I didn't know where you went because you froze. I was trying to calm you down i'm right here i was like well yeah i did figure that out i also definitely said it more frantically i was like i'm right here i'm right here and you were like i know that part i did figure out since you've been there for the last hour anyway sorry go go on go on side note um where were we the homicides so oh good the so the rec room in this prison was called

the sugar shack oh and it was known to be the most one of the most violent rooms in this prison so it was known to be a place where people got jumped pretty often so um just to tack on there was only 36 official recorded deaths or murders here. But in the sugar shack, I'm sure there was a lot of trauma, whether or not someone actually died. I think a lot of people got hurt here. On top of the violence from the inmates, the guards were known to torture the prisoners. And by that, I mean, like, really torture them. They even had torture equipment.

No, no, no of one of them was called the kicking jenny for whipping fuck and one was called the shoe fly for waterboarding and there was also a state-sponsored program to treat particularly violent inmates uh called operation ice pick forget it and operation ice pick was ran by a literal traveling lobotomy surgeon. Fucking hell no. Named Walter Freeman, Dr. Walter Freeman. Oh my God. And in 1952 alone, just to give you some of his stats,

in 1952 alone, Dr. Freeman did over 200 lobotomies in West Virginia in two weeks. In two weeks, he did over 200 lobotomies. Forget about it. I don't know if that was all at Moundsville or just like in the county or something, but I hate that he was able to probably make bank off of such a horrible thing. Like rack up those numbers. Like, oh, gross. I feel like if you couldn't imagine an operation being performed on you, you shouldn't be allowed

to perform the operation. I don't know if that's even a fair thing to say. I think nobody should have it. But I just, I imagine the lobotomy surgeon like doing that to so many people. And part of me is like, I just want that to happen to you. Just so you fucking know what you're doing to people yeah splitting their brain in half via tear duct probably right is that how they did it oh yeah they put the ice pick right in your tear duct yeah take back what i said nobody nobody should want to do it don't stick that in your eye you

know okay so anyway that is just one of the other ways they tortured them were like if you were violent enough or like realistically because we don't know what was going on behind these walls like if just someone didn't fucking like you and like they had power they would just like sign you up for operation ice pick you know so like god like if there was a guard who was particularly evil oh god okay moving on quick move on uh as for death row there were 94 men that were executed um and it's time 85 of them were by hanging and nine were by electrocution oh wow yeah the last man here to be executed his name was frank higher um he was uh being executed for killing his wife and he blamed alcohol for that and great

great great he was meant to be hanged but on the way down the rope decapitated him i don't know how that works no i guess it just was just really tight or pulled his head off yeah he was heavier than i don't know maybe right was able to hold i don't know the the physics of that so um even creepier witnesses claim to see him smiling in the gallows on the way to his death ew uh they say he was religious so maybe he was smiling because he was about to like meet his maker i guess but um but yeah that's definitely super creepy and this was one of the executions actually because his went so horribly wrong which like i don't know what a right version to an execution on death row

is but it definitely went not as planned right uh and this was one of the final moves in the area to end public executions in the state because it was just probably because it was too troubling for you know people who are picnicking at right hanging to watch and they were like this is a little much for the children we just like the normal hangings that don't decapitate people you know you're totally right they probably only moved to end it because it was troubling for others for everybody to watch right you're right god which is why after that executions just became private oh good yes you're good just behind closed doors you know so on to the ghosts we've got uh quite a lot to focus on here today is that smile is that smiling mofo there because i'm scared i'm so scared of him.

I don't know about any ghosts that smile in the shadows. Okay, all right. I don't know. I doubt there isn't some sort of dark energy by the gallows. Probably. If you saw one of them smiling, maybe you can guarantee it was Frank. I don't know. Forget it.

Oy. So in 1938, there was guy um that was on death row here named orville atkins and he was supposed to be hanged but the noose what this is like this keeps happening the he didn't get decapitated but the noose wasn't secure enough on his neck so when they dropped him he slipped out and he hit the ground 20 feet below and he was injured but the executioner just grabbed him and brought him back up to the top and rehanged him that's the thing when they do it over again like oh god it's like technically do i get to stay alive now because did i pass did i like escape death no you just have to do it again oh yeah it's awful um anyway so now at the north

wagon gate which is the entrance to the gallows people hear footsteps and feel someone staring at them and they say it's probably orville i feel like it could be anyone who died on the gallows um it could even be like the spirit of the executioner for like i imagine like having to like stay in some sort of limbo for what he did on earth or something i don't know yeah or just the general energy of so many people dying there and so anyway usually it's attributed to or the native american burial ground oh yes oh yes you're right you're right. But anyway, some people attribute it to Orville. I think it could be anyone that just feels like a place destined to be haunted, which is another weird thing. When I think of like building a prison around you, imagine building a gallows and knowing was, I guess, doing some sort of job there. And every night that he was working in this penitentiary in the North Hall, he would hear rattling and banging.

And if he ever had to go near there, he would sprint in and out. He did not want to be there at all. And while there, since he was the videotech, he started recording certain areas of the prison. And all the audio would always apparently come out sounding like a man heavily panting right next to the camera oh to be fair it could have been him sprinting everywhere he's like no no i'm way more in shape than that couldn't be me could not be me uh it could have just been me going up like a stair and like losing my breath uh so anyway he said it felt like something was always following him in those halls when he was working there and he claims that the

entity even followed him back to new york after his gig or jig all right apparently chip coffee someone tweeted at me saying chip coffee said the jig is up and i was like you know what that's i knew he and i had something in common what is wrong with you the jig is not a gig the jig like the dance like the yeah it's up oh my god christine okay i can't tolerate you okay here's another ghost his name is r Wall. And he was apparently jumped by prisoners who thought he was a snitch to guards. And there's no proof of it. I think they really just saw him, like, laughing next to a guard. And they just assumed he was giving them intel or something.

Oh, shit. So on his way down to the basement one day, he got jumped by people. And so now he haunts the bathroom and boiler room next to the basement did he die he died yeah oh shit um he was jumped after coming down the basement uh so people now hear footsteps coming down the basement stairs and sometimes if you're far away enough people even report hearing his voice oh god um some even claim to have seen him in the basement like as an apparition and he's wearing a khaki uniform and he vanishes away but sometimes he doesn't have his head oh i don't know what that means because i think his head was always intact when in his life maybe they're mixing him up with

that guy who got hanged and lost his head maybe he doesn't have his head maybe he just got lost he doesn't know what place he's haunting you know maybe but um but yeah so at least one apparition doesn't have its head and i mean i would bet it's that guy from but you know what do i know either way the people at least see uh someone in a khaki uniform and i guess that was rd well oh i see either way a head or no head i don't if it vanished in front of me which you have now experienced um that i don't know if i would want to be a part of that at all regardless of the head placement politely step step aside you know just yeah step back from the whole situation i agree um also so they use R.D. Wall in this example, but I think this is just kind of all the spirits of inmates. But apparently R.D. Wall was a very big fan of female visitors.

And he still is. So a lot of women who go into this jail will feel someone stroking their hair or touching their face and their neck. One woman decided to actually talk back to the spirits. I guess maybe they were coming on to her. And later she was covered in scratch marks. Ew. So, again, they say R.D. Wall is the one that's a fan of women visiting. But I feel like in a prison where men

probably didn't see women a lot it could be any ghost there right right right so anyway if you're a woman visiting this penitentiary good luck to you um and also don't talk back which is awful to have to warn you about but you might get covered in scratches so you know do whatever you need to do for yourself but i'm also giving you the warning now warning uh here's something super duper creepy too is a lot of the spirits will drain your energy and people's moods have changed inside of these walls uh one paranormal investigator actually felt super annoyed and uh assumed that like their energy was being drained or manipulated by someone so they took a picture in the room that they were in and they later saw a mist sitting in the chair next to her and i guess around the same time also got an evp of a man's voice screaming let me out

gross um another time on one tour this is like the nicest thing i have to say in all of these notes on one tour there was a group of women who were doing an evp session and they said uh oh is there anything you want to say we're about to head out anything you want to say and they got an evp of a man saying no have a nice night oh that's lovely that feels safe that feels like respectful yeah um okay so moving on quickly uh and with a sharp left turn women have also gotten evps of someone calling them a whore okay well they've heard uh banging on cell bars they've been called uh you know random words like that although there are some men uh male ghosts who i guess try to do the cat calling thing instead and so people

will get evps uh when a woman's in the room of a male voice saying like i love you or you know trying to be all gross and slimy sweet gross uh this is my favorite because i feel like i could i could have gotten this on an investigation one investigator was complaining that he had to bring equipment upstairs and he and they got an evp of someone saying i'll fucking carry it up the stairs then oh and then they floated up to the top with or without a head other evps have included threats including one evp that someone said kill kill kill do it now oh jesus not a fan of that forget it yeah uh in the kitchen there's a shadow man who you can guess what he looks like. And he shows up to people either in real life or even if other people can see him in real life, you might not see him until after the tour in pictures.

Oh, spooky. Which I love and hate. I kind of I hate it maybe a little more because it means someone was able to see him in real time but he intentionally wanted you to not know where he was or like yeah that's not good it's not like oh he can't appear in person it's like he can but he chose not to he he wanted you to not know where he was and only later he wanted you to be freaked out I just got goose cam yeah yeah I don't like that so if you see him in real life the shadow man is seen walking through a room, but he has no feet. That's fun.

I guess he's floating around. Slightly less terrifying than the no head, I would argue. Slightly less terrifying. Also, how many people have noticed he doesn't have feet for it to officially be reported? That's good. That's a good point. But yeah, so apparently he walks in a way where like,

it's very obvious he is walking, like not floating or taking strides. He's taken steps, but he's got no feet. And pictures, he, I guess is also seen in the room, but pictures have never been able to be replicated by investigators.

Oh, okay. so just like him shadow people in general or shadows and footsteps are all very common everywhere on the property i don't even want to list all the rooms because just assume the whole penitentiary is riddled with it um but people also hear running water in the medical ward um usually where the ice baths ice baths were drawn oh another form of torture um and people also report feeling like they walked through a bunch of cob webs like something's crawling on them that's no good i hate that because i feel like that means someone just like like just it feels like you walk through somebody or or something like a spirit or

something or a spider yeah i don't know which is worse uh there was one paranormal group called ghost hunters bluegrass oh is that a kentucky kentucky group maybe it's just zach bagans with a straw hat oh and a fiddle and and they tried to get a picture of the shadow man and this is probably my favorite story of of this whole topic but they tried to get a picture of the shadow man and as they were trying to get a picture of him all of a sudden all of them heard in real time sirens in the jail as if a prison break was about to happen like that loud in your face like riot sirens that would be terrifying they started freaking out so they looked out the nearest window and they saw the watchtower they saw its lights hitting the ground and like searching the searching

the grounds and then before they knew what was going on everything stopped honestly when they went when they went to ask about it later nobody else experienced this in the building it was just them what the fuck is that not the craziest i would just like the absolute bejesus out of me yeah total goose cam total goose cam uh one guide here actually used to be a corrections officer um at the jail when it was open so that's kind of cool he has the uh the intel the first person accounts and uh ceo turned guide said that there used to be an inmate named red who was stabbed to death in his cell that there used to be an inmate named red who was stabbed to death in his cell and she said you could still feel the anger and the energy in his cell when you would walk by and people have been pushed and grabbed in there and one time this now tour guide uh she was walking by his cell and heard

in red's voice morning mags and apparently like he said that every morning and without even thinking about it out of habit she just went morning red and right and she said right back to him and then she felt something touch her neck ew ew that i bet wasn't part of the original experience that was not supposed to be that was not supposed to be so one tour guide uh also literally had a conversation with a guy he thought was on his tour until the guy vanished in front of him i can't imagine what so was this like a former inmate who was like i guess i'll take the tour to see what this is all about yeah they might as well tell us what's going on i kind of i kind of appreciate that i feel like you might as well know what they're saying about you. I guess that's fair.

Yeah. Uh, but also like, ew, that now every time I go on a ghost tour, I like, I keep going to do a head check every day. we've had those stories,

I think for listeners episodes where people are like, oh yeah, there was a little kid there and then like holding my hand or whatever. And then, um, you know, the Alamo, there's like a little boy who will like go on the tour with you

and like the other kids yeah and he'll or there's like yeah it's like a teenage boy who i guess he would have been fighting and he'll tell them like the actual stories of what happened and how he died and then at the end they're like oh what about that little kid and everyone's like there wasn't a little kid on the tour ah i bet forget about it forget about it um other former employees of the prison have said that they got so used to seeing ghosts even when they worked there they were so used to seeing ghosts that they stopped paying attention to shadows whenever they were in their offices no which lets you know that this place was haunted when it was an active prison too true true um but yeah can you imagine seeing so many shadow figures it doesn't even phase you anymore like

that small potatoes yeah you're like whatever just show me something actually scary well they were saying like during like lockdowns when like nobody was walking anywhere they'd still see people walking up and down the halls and they wouldn't even think about it they wouldn't even think oh that's a prisoner on the loose forget which it. Which now I'm kind of not surprised if there was ever an escape attempt. They were like, let's just pretend we're a shadow figure. They'll never notice.

They'll never know. Several places are considered hotspots in this prison, but everyone can agree that the sugar shack is probably one of the bigger ones. In that room, it causes a lot of people to feel their residual energy and have their energy drained or have their energy manipulated. so people have reported feeling depressed rage terror violent desires and

suicidal ideation that's dangerous and as soon as they leave the room they're back to normal but the visitors have like admitted that when they were in there they wanted to kill even the people that they came on the tour with what the f no no no which like i never want to go there with you now because i feel like you'd take one look at me and be like i think i should have killed you years ago you're done uh one time a visitor got an evp uh and the evp said i see a cop she's a cop and the girl taking the evp was an officer no oh so they just like knew yeah isn't that so weird they like i don't know if they know something about you innately or does that mean they've like they can take a look at you and know your entire life up until that moment or did they could they just tell by the way that she was dressed or like

you know what i mean like maybe she had something on her that. Maybe. I kind of wonder like if ghosts, if time is irrelevant, I wonder if they have the ability to like, if since they're a soul, they can see your soul and see like your entire life story. Well, that would be terrifying. In that moment, right? Because they've got eternity. They could probably just do it all in like a blink of an eye and just be like, oh, I know everything about you now. It freaks me out.

Don't like it. So she got an EVP that said, I see a cop. And then later on the tour, she was walking by a cell and felt an invisible someone spit on her. Because they must have known she was a cop, too. Wow. someone spit on her because they must have known she was a cop too. Wow. Probably the creepy, one of the creepiest ones I've got for you.

And this is where I'll end it. Even psychics and mediums have obviously had experiences here, but there's one psychic in particular who next to one of the cells, she felt like she was being choked. And then when they went to the sugar shack, she saw demons in the sugar shack and she described them as looking like there's a quote dark red mucus covered frogs without any back legs dragging themselves on the floor i don't want to know that i'll say it again for people because what the fuck dark red mucus covered frogs without any back legs dragging themselves on the floor like what you can't i could never

come up with that forget it without back legs dragging themselves that's horrific if that weren't enough she said that a dark mist at this penitentiary attached to her and temporarily followed her home and lived in her daughter's closet it's a new sound that was a new sound uh i don't know what to think i don't know she said she said when it came home with her the family began hearing a baby crying in the house but it didn't sound totally human forget it i'm telling you forget it and it's a fucking mucusy frog oh yep and so eventually i'm just gonna hope that this advice is universal but the psychics said that they just ignored it and

eventually it went away so um that's what i i need to maybe do if there's ever something nearby just ignore it and hopefully it'll just go away i just feel like you need to know that i of course immediately googled this and there is a demon called bale or ball uh which presents as a frog cat and man combined almost. Uh, um, and it possesses the power of invisibility and it rules over six legions of demons. Holy shit.

I don't like this at all. And I probably shouldn't even be saying it out loud, but there is a creepy photo, an illustration that I'm gonna send you now since you've done this to me okay I'm gonna do this back to you so I'll do it in Geo's Trio and uh this is the sigil oh that is also part spider and we're not talking about it oh yeah I was thinking like it drags itself. I don't know.

And then the sigil almost looks like a frog, doesn't it? A little bit. Yeah. Oh, that's so weird. It's called Baal. However, to get that energy out of my home, goodbye. However to get it out of my home. Whatever, Christian, Jewish, anything.

I just, I need you out. Goodbye. I'm literally just googling all demon now which is just the stupidest thing i've ever done oh my gosh you've put me on this track and i don't know what to tell you but i don't like the mucusy frog i don't like it i need well that's it for me um that's the mountainsville penitentiary folks anyway um wow and that was spooky as hell i i know that like they're you know the the common ones or the trope or whatever but i freaking love just

like the classic hauntings like the classic jail you know i love a jail haunted house i love a hospital i love a i mean but also i mean like how sad but that's usually where most deaths have like a concentrated amount of deaths happen so and bad energy and bad energy too which sucks i've there was something i forget where it is but it's i don't remember what it was to begin with but half of it is it's in our book um fun fact if you want to go find it asylum 49 or asylum 94 but it's half the building is literally a jump scare halloween place and the other half is like still a hospital oh and both of them are haunted by the same spirits and so they'll like hop around um and one of them there's like a dark shadow figure that at 3 a.m or whatever a lot of nurses have seen like this

solid black mass go into a patient's room like open the door and then close it and when they try to open the door it's now locked from the inside and within like 30 minutes the patient's dead no no no no no no no and it happens in threes so if they see it happen one time they know it's going to happen another two times. Oh, for God's sake, Em. That's terrifying. That's awful. Also, well, go read our book. I was going to say, oh, I thought you were talking to me.

I was like, okay, fine. I'll read it. No, I was about to keep going, but there's even more to it. So anyway, that is the Moundsville Pententory. If I've covered it before i feel like i feel like i have because i remember hearing the sound the it two of my brain cells finally rubbed together when i covered uh when i said like the the torture device the kicking jenny i feel like i've heard that but we've probably talked about that in a different like that was probably not just here

i don't know but i'm sure someone will let us know. But anyway, that's it. Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow. Okay. Thanks a lot for that. You're welcome. I have a story for you today. And this is actually a two-parter.

Christine. Which means, you know, it's a big one this is the story of glenn taylor helzer and the children of thunder sorry all i'm thinking of is thor but okay the children of thunder yeah not quite thor but um maybe there are some similarities i wouldn't know obviously so you can tell me uh just to keep just to keep spirits high for one last second. I will say in the most recent Thor, he gives his powers to children. And so it's like they become children of thunder or whatever. Oh, I bet that's a much more uplifting version of this story.

It was the last fun thing I'll probably have to say for the rest of the episode. Excellent. If you Google, I was wondering if you google it yeah it is only about this crime uh cult it's not really about thor so um right well it was the movie was thor love and thunder and then he like fights with children it's like oh it's like there's love here too there is there was a little bit of love and now in in this version you're about to tell it's not a complete opposite no complete opposite no okay all right thunder here we go okay glenn taylor helzer was born july 26 1970 in michigan his parents jerry and karma helzer were highly spiritual members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the LDS Church. He was, and I feel like we've covered several branches off of LDS that have turned bad. And I'm watching that Keep Sweet, you know,

docuseries. Oh, so spooky. So he was raised in a devout Mormon household, along with his younger sister, Heather, and his younger brother, Justin. His grandfather, Doyle, led the family in prayers and scripture readings, and he often spoke of the time that Jesus Christ himself physically manifested in their yard. What? This is a grandfather. He's telling his grandkids, like, Jesus one time literally showed up in our yard and we spoke for hours. It's like, wow, you must be pretty damn special if Jesus spent an hour talking to you, you know? Let me guess, this happened before any of the grandchildren or children were born, so there's no proof of this. There's no proof of this, of course. But so Glenn grew up in this very faithful, highly respected family

among the church. He was highly active in the church, and he actually became a priest at age 16, which gave him the authority to baptize people and perform other holy sacraments. Whoa. Yeah, starting young. He was almost like a golden child of the church, of their local church. Soon after this, he received a patriarchal blessing, which is a sacred blessing granted by a man in the church called to guide and bless others. And according to one LDS website, quote, those who follow the council in their patriarchal blessing will be less likely to go astray or be misled. Foreshadowing, that's not true. Misled is one word for how this person ends up. I feel like they were immediately misled with this

Jesus is in our backyard situation, to be clear. Yeah, he didn't start on like a solid footing, you know, of reality and logic, I guess. Yes. So around this time, Glenn told his parents he was hearing voices. And this is where, you know, this gets a little bit tough to kind of pick apart, because in retrospect, it's entirely possible he was experiencing symptoms of psychosis. And, you know, he was at that age, you know, young, impressionable, had his whole life ahead of him. He's probably in his like late teens. And he starts hearing voices. And I just want to point out here, even though this guy does end up, as we said, going astray, so to speak, you know, I just want to point out this isn't because, oh, he had psychosis. And therefore, obviously, he was going to harm people.

You know, people suffering from psychosis are far more likely to be victims of violence than perpetrators. So I just want to, you know, point that out. Sure. That I recognize that. And according to a 2011 study on schizophrenia and public perception, people with schizophrenia are up to 14 times more likely to be victimized than arrested for violence. So, you know, there's a public perception that people can be dangerous. People with mental illness, especially severe mental illness, are dangerous. And a lot of times they end up being more vulnerable than the people around them.

Well, thank you for the PSA. Just a little side note, you know, and I'm sure we all already know that. But I just wanted to point out that I recognize that. And, you know, that's what partially why this story is a little tough. So despite the stigma, hearing voices was not Glenn's main issue. His real problem was his mother and their church. So his mom, Karma, told him the voices were the literal voice of God and were guiding him. So instead of kind of recognizing this as the, you know, the appearance

of a mental illness, she sort of encouraged him to listen to these voices. And she truly believed Glenn had a sacred spiritual destiny. He began calling the voices spirit and he believed every word they said. And she became utterly obsessed with her son and his gifts. She, to the point that she told her other children to obey Glenn's every word and trust him without question. Oh, for fuck's sake.

Yeah. So he was just put into this that he was in a vulnerable state and put into a very bad position as were his siblings yeah glenn even told his brother uh frequently i'm number one you're number two like you have to listen to me i was gonna say like think about like, the ego trip that this guy's got. Like, just like, oh, well, I have been given. I'm chosen. I've been given permission to lead you blindly, like, completely by faith. Yeah. Yeah.

And the voice of God is the one. Like, God has picked me to lead you. So you've got to listen, you know? God. Okay. So she was obsessed with Glenn and his gifts. She essentially played into his delusions. I mean, understandably, they were amplified because he was believing everything he was

hearing because his mom encouraged him to listen to the voices. He became highly self-important, speaking of, you know, ego, and truly believed he was chosen by God to travel a sacred path that no one else could. He even left high school that same year and basically earned his diploma independently because he wanted to pursue his role as a spiritual leader. This was like his new path. Wow. Despite this, Glenn seemed to keep it together, at least outwardly, through his teenage years. Family members described him as kind, respectful, full of excitement. I mean, he probably truly believed that he was on this like

sacred path. You know what I mean? Yeah. And so he looked at it as like, oh, there's so much ahead of me. I, you know, I'm empowered. And he was in generally good spirits. One of Glenn's cousins said he was like my mentor. A lot of people wanted to be like him. And Glenn's aunt, who once took her young children camping with him, said he was gentle with wildlife and insects and, quote, he taught my. And again, retrospectively, it seems like he was probably suffering from some pretty intense delusions. But all around, Glenn was pretty well liked. When he turned 17, Glenn signed on with the National Guard and got stationed in Utah. But he was upset by the military's alcohol and smoking culture, among other sins, quote unquote. Uh-huh. Yeah. Everyone's dirty. Yeah.

Yeah. They're not following the word of God. And so he started preaching to the other men about God, vices, et cetera. And they listened. They admired him. And he got this first taste of what it was like to influence and lead people aside from his family. And this gave him even more empowerment because he felt like, okay, I'm fulfilling this role that God has given me.

Well, yeah. I mean, it also, not just like a spiritual accomplishment, but I feel like it is just feeding into the ego of like, oh, it wasn't just my family who would believe me. It's all these other people are listening all the time and I'm doing a good job and I can keep doing this. And changing lives because he's looking at it as like they are going down this horrible path and I have changed their lives and led them to God. I'm saving them. And so this really fed into this kind of like complex, this like savior complex he had. savior complex he had. And so at age 19, he ended up leaving for a two-year mission trip on behalf of the church, which is a common rite of passage in the LDS church. He was ordained as a church elder and tasked with bringing, yikes, God, bringing God to the sinners in Brazil.

Oh my God. Okay. It's just one slight little insight into the problematic world of missionary culture. So he was the first church member in the area. So he was sort of an ambassador and he was idolized by people and became more empowered. And this is kind of where he's gone on this upward, upward trajectory. And this is where things start, unfortunately, falling apart. And this is where things start, unfortunately, falling apart. Following the voice of spirit, quote unquote, in his head, a.k.a. the voices that his mother told him were spirit, Glenn believed the apocalypse was close at hand and only he knew about it.

Oh, shit. Yeah. Oh, God. OK, so now he's going to really, really bring it. Yes. So he's now saying like, okay, this is not just like, you know, leading people to a life of morality. But now I'm like, you know, tasked with, I guess, saving the planet. Just like a slight little jump in responsibility. So he warned the other missionaries about this, but they dismissed him. And he wrote in his journal, it is impossible to turn my mind off, which to me is just really sad because again, looking at it from the perspective of mental illness, it's just sad to think that he was struggling with this. So he spent all of his time interpreting scripture and following spirit's guidance,

and he started preaching to the public about his revelations, which was a serious no-go because the LDS provides very, very super specific topic outlines for missionaries to follow in their work. They have a structure, they have a guideline, and he's going basically off script. basically off script. He told people that once the world ended, technology would be out and faithful survivors would have to follow warrior prophets to survive. So he is creating this entirely new dogma, essentially. And obviously he'd be one of these warrior prophets to lead people, of course. Of course. Of course. He'd be the leader of, he'd be the warrior prophet of the warrior prophets. The alpha warrior prophet of the pack, yes. Glenn knew this must be that sacred path his mother and church had been preparing him for all of his life. And, you know, I also want to point out that I recognize, too, that his mother

was probably trying to do the right thing and just misunderstood this mental illness. I mean, it's very tragic that she said, oh, the voices are true and you should listen to them. Yeah, that's a rough one. That's a rough one. It's rough. And it's like a tough place. I can't. I feel like I don't have I'm not in a place to say, you know, judge that.

But it does make it kind of sad to see how that progressed uh he even warned the mission president about the incoming global disaster that he was sensing and finally someone realized glenn was suffering from serious delusions and paranoia well thank god at least someone had some wherewithal well unfortunately he did nothing oh oh okay so you just like realized it and then went to sleep and was like yeah he just said uh no this guy is having delusions he is not well mentally anyway back to my life back to my cereal i don't know what he was like right he just noticed it and uh went back to doing his thing. He did nothing, obviously, to prevent the apocalypse, but he also did nothing to help Glenn. And so over time, Glenn became more

paranoid, and he couldn't decide if the church higher ups were simply incompetent, or if they were corrupt and concealing the apocalypse. So now he's thinking, oh, maybe it's not just that they're ignorant, maybe they actually know about it, and they're trying to hide it and they're evil. You know what I'm saying? Oh, OK. Yeah. Like maybe they also know. And the reason they're ignoring me is because they want to doom the church and have this like apocalypse come upon us.

So now he feels like it's him against the entire. OK, got it. Exactly. He returned to California at age 21, convinced that he had to follow spirit's command to take over the church and save its people. How on earth are you going to do that? Oh, well. What a tall order. I'm so glad you asked him because.

He's going to take over the church. If you're going to be a warrior, the alpha warrior prophet, you know, you better know what you're doing. Big shoes to fill. So in 1991, Karma, his mother, noticed the difference in Glenn, like the increased paranoia, that kind of thing, but didn't seem too concerned. She basically told him he was ready to meet his destiny. Oh, my God. I know. destiny. Oh my god, I know. And she enrolled him in something called impact training, which is a group awareness workshop, aka a seminar advertised to unlock your inner leader. Okay, a lot of buzz

words, I feel like, you know, yeah, that's a great way to put it. It's just like, what, what even is this? It's too vague for my comfort. According to psychology studies in large group awareness training, it's sort of like LSAT, but LGAT, L-G-A-T. I don't know if that's how you say it, but I'm going to say LGAT. Sometimes called the human potential movement, formal psychology research was seldom pursued. And basically basically success was based on customer satisfaction not actual research on how to train the human mind so this seems like a very dangerous what ass backwards science pseudoscience is this oh just get ready for what they did so this workshop the trainers would keep participants awake for days yeah i mean this is of course no psychology group no recognized psychology group

was like no one would approve sleep deprivation no one would do that to to better your mind no way yeah let's let's starve your brain of energy and then really work from there and then let's see what happens yeah so the trainers would keep participants awake for days, leading them in high pressure activities to induce extreme exhaustion and stress. And then as if that weren't enough, they would pit participants against each other in group lessons, insult them and encourage them to insult each other.

This feels like reality show science. Yeah. Yes. Yes. It feels like what, what will get us good TV. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, deprive them of sleep, deprive them of food, make them like whisper something about the other in each other's ears.

And give them alcohol would be the only one that's missing here. Yeah. Yep. And so one former Elgat trainer actually explained, quote, by spending approximately half the time making a person feel bad and then suddenly reversing the feeling through effusive praise, the programs cause participants to experience a stress reaction and an endorphin high. Which gives me the ultimate creeps because I was just rereading Gavin De DeBecker's book, um, the gift of fear. And he does talk about why oftentimes abusive relationships, especially domestic abuse, there is that like high of getting approval or praise, uh, or even parent child abuse. You know, there's that high of like, when'm not getting harmed i'm getting good treatment that's such a higher high well it's the it's like i was if you hadn't said it i was

gonna say it too because i was just like that just sounds like an abusive relationship right there just like oh you know when things are bad they're bad but when things are good they're really good they're really good and like you know they really know how to apologize they make me feel better after a fight and it's like yeah homie like they're just giving you the polar opposite situation like you you never know you never know a calm middle ground like and it's almost becomes this addiction of like oh you're seeking that that approval that high and because it's it's like you said so good when it's so bad it's so good to have the opposite um and so basically this is what they're doing to these people they're just putting them in these situations abusing them

and then uh treating them really well so that they get that endorphin high and it's like oh what this is just should be illegal i i don't know i don't know um so least shocking news ever some participants became so exhausted that they suffered stress-induced psychotic episodes oh shit experts reported that elgat sessions use the same thought reform techniques found in many cults which is intended to break down the trainee um and the topic is a bit controversial i I guess, in the psychology field. Not everyone agrees about this, but it seems like they're doing a pretty good job of breaking these people's spirits. I don't know.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I would say 100%. Right? They're having literal psychotic breaks, so you're doing a great job. At breaking them, yeah, I would say. At breaking them. Either way, Glenn left his training understanding the key to his future.

Either way, Glenn left this training understanding the key to his future. He now knew how to break down and manipulate people until they became fully reliant on him or fully loyal to him. So now he's learning abusive tactics. Yay. To get what he wants or to get what he thinks is his like path, you know? Yeah. He also learned basically there is no right or wrong, only results. And that's a quote.

I wonder what Jesus would say about that. I feel like it's very Machiavellian. Like the end justifies the means. Like it doesn't matter how we get there, but this is how I'm going to save everyone. justify the end justifies the means like it doesn't matter how we get there but this is how i'm gonna save everyone glenn now knew he was divine he knew he could do anything he wanted or needed to realize god's mission and uh that is a dangerous path he decided to go down well especially for him to say like it is okay to especially in terms of like it doesn't matter if it's right or wrong

it's all about results it's like oh so i can just like emotionally and psychologically abuse anyone necessary to get exactly what's needed and at the end of the day i can still pat myself on the back yeah because i did what god intended for me to do and whatever the voices say that's what i gotta do yeah listen to the voices the voices are right oh god yeah I got to do. Yeah. Listen to the voices. The voices are right. Oh, God. Yeah. It's a very, very scary setup for this whole story. So before he could take over the church and save the world, you know, just your everyday,

everyday work day, Glenn needed to hit some more regular milestones like getting a job and a wife. So this was steps one and two. So back in his hometown, Glenn converted his former high school classmate, Anne, so that they could start dating. And in 1993, at age 23, Glenn married Anne. Within a month, he started staying out late and started acting cagey. And she was basically heartbroken by his behavior. And all she wanted was some normalcy back in their marriage so her uncle stepped up and gave glenn a job at a financial investment

company where he got this sales role and i mean you know this is was an ideal role for him because he was so charismatic and manipulative and so he thrived as a salesperson. He compiled a pretty impressive client portfolio. Yeah, he was just, you know, killing the game. I'm glad you said that it was going well for him because I was nervous for a second that someone with that kind of ego was going to be responsible for people's money. And like it was, it was going to get bad. Like he was going to like take money or something. Well, you know, this, this was like a, I feel like a high point, you know what I mean? Like, he was like, oh, I'm good at this. But I think also ultimately not super great because it's like, okay, I'm just practicing my skills on people. Like my manipulation, I'm practicing my

charisma and how to get people to do what I want. I'm practicing my schmooze. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he did really well in this role, for what it's worth. And he seemed to calm down at least temporarily. They seemed relatively normal at home for several years. But behind the scenes, Anne and Glenn had serious issues. so here we get into the some of the darker stuff glenn was obsessed with porn and he was angry that ann wouldn't emulate the things he was watching oh yikes okay uh-huh they did couple therapy together and in therapy he complained about being sexually neglected by his prudish wife.

Oh, okay. And to make things worse, Anne had recently birthed their first child, a daughter, but Glenn didn't think that should interrupt their sex life. Gross. Also, let's remember that I thought he was doing all this for God, but now he like. Right, of course. But like now he wants like X-rated porn sex life uh at at every moment which is like that's what the voice has told him you know okay yeah so luckily i don't think you should worry because glenn had a solution to fix this problem i think i should worry actually whatever you should really worry i think you didn't worry he started advertising for sex partners in Brazil.

Okay. This is his plan. And he would assess, this is what he's proposing at least. So he would advertise for sex partners in Brazil and assess around 100 female applicants, narrow it down to 35, and then sign two-year contracts with them, which required alternating shifts to ensure he could have sex with someone every day. Sorry. Sorry, that's just not what I saw coming.

But okay, sure. I mean, what else is new? It's just so off the wall. So unsurprisingly, this did not work out for him. And also unsurprisingly, the therapist diagnosed Glenn with narcissistic personality features. Well, fucking finally. Yeah. He's like, don't worry.

Don't worry. Shrink. I got a plan. And they're like, oh, dear Lord, this is worse than I thought. The second you said that him and his wife started going to therapy, I was like, day one, I hope this therapist has something to say. It's like, ding, ding, ding. I think I'm going to write about this in my memoir someday. Yeah.

Yeah. So he quits therapy. He started attending more of this group awareness training. And on top of that, he started drinking and doing drugs. Just perfect. The perfect storm kind of coming together. So Glenn's younger brother, Justin stepped up to help and raise her baby, which is, I think, very sweet. So her brother in law stepped up to help raise the baby

while Glenn unfortunately spiraled into addiction and deeper delusions. So at age 26, Glenn left his wife and child and moved in with his younger brother, Justin, who had been basically living an unassuming and content life until Glenn started using his tactics on Justin. Oh, man. So, man, I really wanted him to be the unsung hero of it all. The hero. I know. It's very sad. So over time, Justin, who had been previously grounded, but remember, had been raised by his mother to follow Glenn with no questions. Everything Glenn says. Yeah, is right. And so he already has this kind of like background of being inferior to Glenn and doing what he says. So he starts to believe Glenn's delusions and they're living together.

So he's just around him, you know, 24-7. So he starts to believe Glenn is correct about his delusions about God, the church, the apocalypse. And meanwhile, Glenn kept sleeping with his estranged wife until their second child was born. So they were able to procreate, I guess, was his plan. Tensions increased at this point, and they finally divorced. And in the lds community this was deeply deeply shameful um it was considered you know very very shameful to divorce so glenn found himself for the first time in his life on the wrong side of church opinion and uh finally for the first time this is what did it yeah okay i was gonna say he's been on the wrong side of society's opinion for

quite a while but at least of my fucking opinion but whatever i guess mine doesn't fucking matter um so he was shocked and furious uh he was like excuse me don't you know i'm supposed to save you from the apocalypse right don't you know that i and my 32 brazilian wives are going to spare you from a fiery hell? I don't know. I would love to sit down with him and ask in detail how he got there, but okay. I just have a lot of questions. But, you know, they were like, sorry, dude, you are not following protocol. And he, at this point, became even more obsessed with spirit, aka the voices in his head and his spiritual work in fact he wanted to quit

his job to focus on spirit and his destiny full-time his cousin moved in with him and unfortunately his cousin had been diagnosed with both bipolar disorder and schizophrenia so now he has somebody else extremely vulnerable that he can coerce. Yeah. Maybe they're enabling each other in some way or. Yeah. It's not. Yeah. It's not a good combo as we can kind of probably predict. Glenn asked his cousin to coach him on how to fake a psychotic break.

Oh my God. Yeah. Wait, Glenn asked his cousin. Yeah. Okay. Whoa. God. His cousin had cousin had you know schizophrenia and bipolar and so he said can you teach me how to fake a psychotic break because i would like to leave

my job and live on disability so that i can pursue my spiritual calling i'm sorry every bullet point feels less godly but oh yeah oh yeah oh my god that's so sad so did is the cousin do we know if he's the one who is the one who said that later like did he admit that or did like later did glenn say this like oh no i just asked that's a great point i'm not sure where we got that intel i'm not sure either way like it's like i feel bad for both of them yeah it's it's just like a toxic relationship at the very least it's a toxic relationship yeah um so glenn came up with other strange schemes uh to raise funds for his holy mission he suggested they start an escort business uh where they would recruit women with his 32 Brazilian

wives. Hang on. Yeah, no, those those are separate. Those are only OK. So they would recruit women as sex workers to make money. And remember, this is to raise funds for his, you know, holy journey, his holy mission. So he asked his cousin if he'd be willing to kill people. What? Because he needed someone to be the muscle behind this operation. He asks a lot of favors of this cousin and they're all tall orders. Tall orders. They're all big asks. They're all giant asks.

And his cousin agreed to this. Okay. But said, I'll only do it if it's in the name of God. And he says, oh, yes, absolutely. This is a spiritual matter. This is God is, you know, directing me. And so we got to do it. They made business cards for this business, but they never actually followed through. What do we know what the business was called? No. And I want to see this business card so badly and I don't have access to it. But I just can imagine.

I know Vistaprint wasn't around, but their Vistaprint order of like. I think someone from Vistaprint should have called the police if they were in charge of making these cards. Or Kinko's or wherever they were getting these printed. So they made these business cards, never actually followed through on it. Thank God. printed. So they made these business cards, never actually followed through on it, thank God. Glenn's sister Heather at this point was alarmed by Glenn's behavior and wrote letters to church elders pleading for help on behalf of Glenn. Instead of helping him, the church excommunicated him. But at this point, he didn't care because he was on his own righteous path. He didn't need the

church to be supportive of him. He only needed spirit's command and his own followers. Well, yeah. I mean, if his whole plan is to overthrow the church, why would he care what the church thinks of him? He already knows they're not going to like him when he overthrows them. Exactly. He already thinks they're the bad guys, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So Glenn next starts dating this 22 year old waitress named carrie and she looked up to him again someone very vulnerable as the first person to treat her well

after a traumatic childhood and abusive relationship so glenn essentially tricks carrie into trusting him and attending one of these group awareness workshops, you know, where they deprive you of sleep and insult you and abuse you. And so he convinces her to do this group or tricks her into going. And the trauma of the seminar essentially opens her up to just unflinchingly following him. She became like basically putty in his hands. Oh, Carrie.

And it gets worse because to further bind her to himself, Glenn then secretly dosed her with ecstasy. And basically turned her into a regular drug user because she was suddenly addicted to drugs because he was just dosing her and then she needed the drugs, you know? Oh my God god it's so twisted and and she became a regular drug user and they sold drugs together at rate at raves to

make money um carrie helped glenn officially fake his psychotic break that he had asked his cousin about and he took anti-psychotic medication while finally collecting these welfare checks he wanted so badly so i don't know anything about um i i don't i don't know anything about his his antipsychotic something he should have actually been taking all along i you know i'm not sure actually i think he just took those because they were prescribed after he faked the psychotic break okay so i think these were just for show i was just hoping that at the end of the day like he accidentally drugged himself into like having some better state of mind yeah no i think uh i think well from uh what comes up

uh no it didn't unfortunately didn't have the fun side effect of bettering his mental health. Got it. Eventually, he and Carrie became addicted to cocaine and meth. He forced Carrie to, yikes, get breast implants to become a model. Okay. Wow. And she began working part-time as a stripper to pay for the procedure on her own dime because he didn't even pay for it. Of course not.

He said you have to dance to make the money to pay for your procedure. And for God, by the way. But it's all for God. Yeah. Meanwhile, Glenn searched for more young women to recruit as quote unquote disciples. He briefly dated one woman who quickly realized she was in danger and broke up with him thank goodness but not long afterward he and his brother met 24 year old don goodman at a murder mystery dinner party which i guess is nothing sacred anymore is what i have to say to that freaking murder mystery dinner party so fun the real mystery is like, what is going on? Yeah, they didn't sign up

for like the real deal murder mystery party. But here we are. So Dawn, unfortunately, had recently hit what she described as rock bottom. She had attempted suicide. And so she had converted into the LDS church during her recovery and had found peace and hope there until Glenn showed up. And like he had learned in his frickin group awareness training, he began showering her with affection, which is something she was not used to. And she did that, you know, classic response of fawning. Glenn convinced her to attend one of these group awareness trainings. And this kind of broke her down and binded her to him like he had done with Carrie. And he started collecting, it's a terrible word, but it's what he did,

like collecting roommates and friends and bringing them to these trainings until everyone close to him was just like into this philosophy and fully trusted his leadership. It's disturbing. It's disturbing, like the levels of manipulation how many people in his immediate life at this point are being affected by him everyone right a lot yeah i would say everyone probably okay um and the people who realized they were in trouble like got out of there you know how and did carrie carrie didn't end up ever like i don't know i feel like that was a very i was expecting that story to end where like he became like another wife and like he got her pregnant and things, but that was just a kind of a

random that flew in and out of his life or? No, she's still involved in, in this whole circle. He's just now adding to the people he's already gotten. So he has Carrie, he has Dawn, and now he's, you know, bringing more and more roommates and people into this like circle of his, his disciples, quote unquote. So Glenn dedicated all of his time to giving these friends individual attention to keep them complacent and dedicated to him. So there's this, we just talked about this on rituals, but this like level of persuasion where he's giving them individual attention. He knows how to keep them on the hook, basically.

And so over time, he focused especially on Dawn, and he revealed his life's mission to her as the, you know, warrior prophet and explained to her how he would follow God's word to save the LDS church from its corrupt and incompetent leadership. At this point, he believed it was his purpose, not God's, to usher in the apocalypse himself. Wow. So he's almost like above God now, which is like, well, I think we saw this coming. I saw it coming a million miles away. Yes.

Oh my gosh. I'm like, it's just, we're finally here. But yeah. Yeah. I feel like the second you think you're higher than God, but also doing work for God. Like, don't you think God should be just working for you at that point? And then I guess I don't know. I can't wrap my head around that level of, you know, crazy, crazy stuff.

So, but I don't know. Yeah. The delusions have gotten really, really elaborate. He believes he needs to usher in the apocalypse. He develops a list of proverbs that he calls the 12 principles of magic. And he commanded his disciples to obey these principles and finally had a plan to enact his holy war.

Oh boy. Okay. So together, Don, Justin, and Glenn would raise enough money to travel to Brazil and recruit orphaned children as future soldiers for his cause. Oh, my God. It gets so much worse every time. It just keeps getting fucking worse.

It's like, well, at least orphans aren't involved. And then all of a sudden. Surprise. Yeah. Man. Okay. And you said these are these 12 rules of magic. What do you call it?

Yeah. The 12 principles of magic what'd you call it yeah the 12 principles of magic huh i don't have the list of them here i didn't know if like can can we find that online later i wonder what that even looks like it's probably not very sensical but i you know i'm still curious um well you can buy the uh album on oh wait what oh no that's a different yeah there's like a cd there's a cd on amazon uh i'll just trust you with that i just was curious what his 12 principles would be but but oh i got him oh i found this on lds movement.pbworks.com. Okay. It's quite a website. Okay.

Here we go. His program was centered around the 12 principles of magic. One, I am already perfect and therefore can do nothing wrong. That's also my principle of magic. I have one principle of magic. It's just the Gemini rule. What's next? Hang on.

Christine's principle of magic. It's just the Gemini rule. What's next? Hang on. Christine's principle of magic. Was that meant for everyone to believe or was the belief that he's perfect and everyone needs to know he's perfect? I believe it's for everybody. Okay. Well, that's nice and generous. I guess so. I guess so.

Two, there is no such thing as right and wrong this is like if you ask a child to say like the opposite of the golden rule or like the opposite of what morality is it's just like so transparent uh three i am all powerful and therefore the creator of and accountable for everything that occurs in my life now that sounds like some of the secret bullshit. Yeah. Yeah. Four life is always right. I embrace all of my results. Five, all of my results I have created to learn from at some level. Six, I know nothing. Oh, wait, wait, hang on. Sorry. Is one of his principles. I, everything I do is right. And I know how to do everything and i'm the best and then the next one i know nothing literally i life is always right everything i've created and i know nothing i believe nothing i simply perceive without fear okay i also know nothing but i also know

nothing yeah okay i am already perfect that's my first one and can do nothing wrong and i know nothing those are my two principles i'm perfect i don't know i don't know anything uh seven it is of no concern to me how accurate or inaccurate my perceptions are and therefore i am always right what is going on this is banana grams is what this is the the thing is like first of all i want to say i'm very aware that like this person is mentally ill like we can't forget from a very sick mind yes but imagine like the people who are also trying to like they're really investing their themselves in following your principles and this is the booklet they get and they're just like um so which ones do

i follow today like what so am i right or am i not right or do i perceive or am i wrong to perceive or do i not know anything at all yes it seems like they kind of contradict one another which again like this isn't coming from somebody who is of sound mind right yes what is it what are the what are the rest of them okay so here we. Eight, unconditional fearless love is the most powerful force in the universe. Okay, I love that one. Number eight I can vibe with. I kind of like nine except out of context. So nine is spirit knows.

That's it. I do love that. Kind of witchy. I like it. Yeah, I love that one. Ten, I gain total control by losing all control. Wow, some of these sound like they could be in a self-help book. I feel like Tony Robbins wrote this. For sure, for sure. Eleven, life is such a precious gift, and when I give back to life,

immediately life gives more back to me, and therefore I am forever in its debt. What goes around comes around. Keep in mind, he asked his cousin if he would kill for him yeah that's true 12 there is a higher power than mine and that is my savior jesus christ the son of my father oh okay that one i don't vibe with as much but you know i liked um like conditional unconditional love or something i liked spirit knows and i liked i don't know and i guess i'm a quarter in belief with him honestly more than i expected yeah me too yeah me too okay so anyway he had these 12 principles of magic yes yes and again i know we were laughing but i want to point out too like we're well aware this is you know somebody we're not laughing at his mental illness we're just laughing at like i just feel

like if it was if anyone handed if anyone handed me that i would be like some of these i'm down with but i am confused i am i do have questions before i dive in wholeheartedly you know yeah um so he has these 12 principles magic magic and they were supposed to obey these principles um and he decided to start this holy war they decided to recruit orphan children children from Brazil as soldiers for the cause. And the children would be trained as skilled assassins who would travel to the United States, kidnap the LDS church leaders, and smuggle them back to Brazil. The children do this? The children do this.

The children are responsible for like... They're warriors of God. Grand kidnap. Yes. Got it. for like... They're warriors of God. Grand kidnap. Yes.

Got it. From Brazil then, the hostage church leaders would write letters declaring Glenn as the new true leader of the church. And the nine million Mormons

of the world would gratefully accept him as their savior. He would then develop his own awareness training called Transform America to create a state of peace and joy.

Hmm. Okay. So he's got a plan. It's not a not one I'd, I'd write up, but it's not a great plan. I feel like even in his mind, you know, I'm like, I feel like you're banking on a lot of successes to happen in a row that probably won't happen. I feel like he looked at it and should have at least seen one, one area where he's like, we should have a backup plan. Yeah. You'd think that like maybe plan B, but I guess not, you know, if he's really convinced it's going to work. Especially now knowing his like principles of magic. I feel like some of his principles were like, I'm responsible for whatever happens. And it's like, okay, we'll be ready for this to not go great. You know? Yeah. But spirit knows, you okay, we'll be ready for this to not go great.

You know? Yeah, but spirit knows. You know, maybe spirit told him. You know what I mean? I don't know. I feel like you could really use a lot of these in whatever context you needed to. I feel like he wrote each of those principles in a different mood. And like, so just no matter what's going on, he's got an answer for it. It works for something.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Dawn hears this plan and she's like all right i'm in full stop uh carrie on the other hand finally hits a breaking point at this point uh she packed her things and left and actually later became a professional model and playboy centerfold all on her own all right so proud of her all right girl. Overcome your trauma and be successful. Love that for you. Their other roommates moved out too, thankfully. So now Glenn had most of his disciples gone, and he turned fully to Justin and Dawn as his loyal soldiers and decided it was time to enact his plan to take over the church and save the world.

But first, he needed $20 million to do that. Oh, wow. Don't we all need $20 million? To do the big plans in life that we have. Yeah. So selling ecstasy at raves wasn't really getting him close to that $20 million. So he decided on a new plan, which was to commit extortion and murder instead. And this way he would, you know, create a state of peace and joy at the end. But remember, the end justifies the means. So if he has to murder and extort people, you know, it's all part of God's plan. They're just a pawn, a pawn in this chessboard of life. Exactly right.

So in Glenn's mind, he could do anything he wanted or needed to in order to carry out spirit's holy orders. And God would approve of this. He was above the law, above the church, and above all morality, because nothing is right or wrong. He was morality. It was like his own sense of morality. It was simply God's word and his destiny. There were only results. That's all he wanted. So Glenn told Don and Justin that together their trio made up a holy trinity called the children of thunder i see okay i forgot about the children of thunder title here okay and together they would usher in the new age and save their people their path laid about before them the children of thunder set to planning a series of crimes which included extortion abduction and murder to access money and set into motion their divine mission and you know what's the end of part one wow that's a lot of information that i don't know where i'm gonna store it but

i will say you know i it just feels extra icky that there are children involved because for someone who's trying to schmooze and manipulate and it's like, who better than children who like just, you know. Better than children who've lost their parents and like. Like they're looking to anyone to guide them. Or like affection or anything. Forget it. Forget it. Wow. Talk about a juicy story.

I'm shocked I haven't heard of this because I feel like this would have been in all the papers. Maybe it was when I was too it. Wow. This, uh, talk about a juicy story. I'm shocked. I haven't heard of this cause I feel like this would have been in all the papers. Maybe it was when I was too young. Yeah. I don't know. Um, it's, it's pretty wild. It's pretty wild. I feel like every time I hear of one of these new cults or, you know, off like fanatic offshoots, I'm just shocked that i hadn't heard of it but boy whatever well man that was a good one and i don't i mean it was like i do obviously i'm not have i sympathize with everyone in the story but i don't feel like i want to go cry into a pillow after hearing you report on a story for once which is nice yeah yeah so i feel like i can breathe relatively easier than normal so maybe after part two we'll see okay well i don't even was that a sneeze sorry excuse me

yes the fuck was that i thought that was like a cat got i don't know thrown down the stairs that's how i sneeze i'm so sorry i can't sneeze quietly I have like a dad sneeze and Allison hates it it's the loudest sneeze on earth but that sneeze was sounded like a it sounded like something that was happening to a cat so oh no in case you need a description one day for how you sneeze well uh I look forward to next week and I it it sounds like it's going to just get worse and worse. I can't imagine it getting better and better. So, um, it's not good.

I'm happy to, to end here for a while and take a breath. Yeah. Yeah. We'll get to the murder next week, you know? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, until then, if you'd like to hear more, you can follow us, uh,

on Patreon. We've got our after chats and we're going to go record one of those and chat. We've got the tour of the troll hole. We've got the tour of the troll hole. We've got the tour of the troll hole. We've got. What else we got going on? We're probably. Are we coming up on September?

We've got our shows coming up. Our. Our encore shows. We're here for the booze. Our fall tour. So excited. So. Anyway.

If you want to. You know. See us around. You can do that. I suppose. See us around town you can do that, I suppose. See us around town. And that's why we drink.