And That's Why We Drink - E310 The Town Shrieker and the Grape Escape

Episode Date: January 15, 2023

It's episode 310 and despite the movie-magic of our recording schedule we actually haven't recorded in a month! Tune in as we catch up on anxiety and nose piercings as well as all things creepy. First Em covers the wild history of the Banshee, who uses she/her pronouns, thank you for normalizing pronouns, Banshee. Then Christine breaks down Stockholm Syndrome for us and brings us part one of the case the term originated from. And get Ireland on the horn, because we've got some questions about spelling (and maybe grapes and cereal as well)... and that's why we drink!We can't wait to see you all on the road! Check out our tour page for show deets and tix! andthatswhywedrink.com/live

hey poop i wanted to do 2023 i told you to stop doing that because you're gonna ruin the magic i guess also did that on the last episode i know it's also it's it's only new year's for us it's been a exactly it's been a bit uh you already did that song well i did it again last week but we just don't remember because it was over a month ago that we recorded last it's like movie magic or podcast magic of like oh it sounds like you just heard from us yesterday but i actually haven't talked to christine and since the beginning of December. It's been a while. It's very odd.

And I don't know why we do this, really. For our own sanity. Is that why? It's also good for us to take breaks because then I miss you. And then I come back and we've got things to talk about. You know, we chatted briefly yesterday and I was like, aw. Me too. I thought more was coming, no i agree well i texted you hey can you talk for two minutes and you were like you like clearly were like

what do you want oh i thought well no the when we had been texting it there was like a really weird misunderstanding and so i thought i was gonna like hammer down on the semantics of the conversation. I know that's what I thought. I was like, No, I swear. It's just a funny thing. I want to tell you. You just went Can you talk for a couple minutes? And I went, Oh, I think I'm in trouble. And so you went lol. Okay. And I was like, Oh, boy, I was prepared. So when you answered the phone, I was like, I swear it's funny. And it's only two minutes. I promise. It was funny. I was like, I swear it's funny and it's only two minutes. I promise.

It was funny. No, I definitely missed you. I do like our breaks from each other. Not because I, you know, not in a bad way. I just, I like getting to come back and feel fresh with you. Yeah, there's a lot we've missed. How are you? What are you up to?

What's the 411? Oh, the 411. Wow. Well, I've been gone this this entire time the whole time we haven't talked i feel like i've not been here actually that is true i only got back a couple days ago um i've been on the east coast i spent a week with allison's family then i spent a while with my family in fredericksburg um and it was it was nice, but I'm dealing with some anxiety issues. And I don't know what that's about. But I've also heard that a lot of people are going through that right now that a lot of people are having like weird panic attacks for no reason. Oh, I haven't heard that.

But I'm also in that boat. So maybe I'm part of the mob. Maybe I don't. Yeah, I was. It's been actually really bad. And I'm like, not not in they've been moments where like the panic attacks were so bad i thought my ablation was reversing and i was having an svt episode and it didn't feel exactly like svt but it felt like svt was trying to happen and i and i was like even like on the plane ride home i like had to take a xanax i like couldn't breathe i don't know what my deal was but okay a couple weeks ago I'm not trying to I'm trying to just add to your story I'm not trying to overtake your story but that's it's just making me think because we went to Trader Joe's a couple weeks ago and I had um like

a full-blown panic attack like I have not had in years and the only other time I felt that way was the day my grandmother died and i was like having this panic attack and i like remember i sat down on the sidewalk and i was like blaze my grandma died and he was like what no she didn't we just heard about her last night and we got home and i got that message so in the trader joe's i'm like did someone die they're going something happened something bad happened and blaze is like oh my god the last time she said this it was true and i was i mean losing my ever-loving mind i was like were you also with the baby yeah and i was like i'm gonna

sit in the car and just like i but i called my mom and everyone took it very seriously and like called everybody in the family as far as i know nothing happened but i was like the only other time i felt like this was when my grandmother died and I was like something terrible is happening I'm having like a full-blown I mean maybe it was literally just a good old panic attack but I mean well like and I've never really had panic attacks I was like is this 30 like I don't know what the fucking deal is but like I like I we were it was after New Year's and after New Year's on New Year's Day we ends up having like the debriefing of new year's where we all talk about how new year's went. And I, so I was at brunch and like all of a sudden, like I had just drank a shitload of water. I had just eaten a lot of food. New year's, uh, night,

we actually, everyone was a 30 year old that went to bed at like one in the morning. So like, I actually had some fairly good sleep. There was no physiological reason why I should have, why this should have happened. But I was sitting at the table after just eating and all of a sudden i was like i think i'm gonna pass out and i like i like felt really lightheaded and dizzy and then all of a sudden my heart started going really fast no and i was like what the fuck is going on and actually since from new year's until like only a couple days ago i feel like i was just in like a forever panic attack and it was really brutal and i don't know i don't know like i'm freaking i i was freaking out like maybe it was my heart but maybe it was just then i went on tiktok and everyone's having panic attacks so maybe there's like some maybe it's a new covid or something i have no

idea but i it freaked me out so anyway i'm glad to hear i hate that that happened to, but I'm glad to hear that I'm not alone, that this happened for no reason. I didn't tell anyone because I was like, well, I genuinely was sure. I was like something somebody something has happened. Somebody somebody's either hurt or dead. Maybe you're feeling me on the other side. I mean, maybe I was. And so that's why I didn't tell anyone because I was like, I don't want anyone to get all flipped out or anything. But it was very bizarre.

And the next day I was like holding my breath for like three days, like waiting for somebody to call and be like, yeah, something happened. But I mean, as far as I know, I haven't gotten any news. So no one, no one's super duper important. Yeah, clearly nobody who they think is important enough to notify me, you know. But yeah, well, I mean, clearly nobody who they think is important enough to notify me, you know. But yeah, well, I'm sorry you're feeling I hope being at home has calmed your nerves a bit. It actually the second I got home, I haven't felt it. So I don't know if it's just all the like hustle and bustle.

Maybe or maybe I'm like, I think I felt like maybe it was the stress of like knowing I have to get back to work. And like I was I don't know. I have no idea. But anyway, that was that was a wild time. Happy New Year. Happy New Year. Oh, God. Well, I hope I hope, you know, well, obviously we've learned I can't hope for anything. And we just coast.

So we just let it happen. We look 2023 in the eye and say, all right, how's this going to go? Yeah. What are you drinking, Christine? Okay, wait, can I give you my updates? Since I haven't seen you in like a month? Yes, yes. I'm a cool mom now.

Got a nose piercing. Oh my God. Well, you are a cool mom. You didn't need the nose piercing for that, but you look extra rock star all of a sudden. Thank you. My stepmom said, what the hell did you do to your face was that have you not always had your nose pierced i thought you always did no i got this done like two weeks ago i mean i don't remember you having it i i thought you said like maybe

the whole closed up or something i thought you always know i've never had one i was my um like the big dork i am my my 18 year old-old sister had to take me. She made the appointment. Did she hold your hand? Because it was over the phone. She did not, but she did go first because I was nervous. Did it hurt? What does it feel like? It like stung a bit, but it didn't really hurt.

I will say my cartilage piercing on my ear, it took a lot longer to heal. I've heard that one's the worst. It just really hurt because I think I just kept getting my hair caught in it. And so it just always hurt. But this one, I mean, honestly, by the next day was like fine. How long do you have to keep that in until you can switch them out? Um, they said like 10 to 12 weeks before you can replace it with like a smaller. So now I got to get used to you picking your nose all the time. No, I don't. Cause I'm trying not to mess with it, you know, but I mean, you, you do know I'm a fidgeter, so it is difficult to not be. I don't know a person with a nose piercing that doesn't always look like they're picking their nose for a little bit.

Yeah, that's true. That's true. I'll try to keep my hands off. It's part of the culture. Yeah, it's part of the culture. We get to pick our nose now and it's acceptable, societally acceptable. Other update was that Leona started walking, like just barely. She's taking her steps.

But this morning, she walked like six steps, which was the most she's ever done. So that's an update. When was her first official step that you consider a real step? December 23rd. She took like three or four steps. And what did she walk to? From Blaze to me and then from me to Blaze. So you first. Sounds like she loves you more

i mean i why are you even saying that like it's a surprise true i didn't know she happened to be like running towards like a tomato or something you know i was holding a tomato interesting oh last update uh hypnotherapy on my phone anxiety did not work. Oh, no. Do you have to do more than one session? That's what I thought. But she was basically like, you're done. And I was like, I am. And then I went home and was like, I don't feel much better about it. I will say she definitely helped me get to the bottom of some of it. And the first like it was like a 90 minute session and the first full hour was like basically therapy. And so I was like, OK, so we just like kind of got to the bottom of some things but I still feel like I'm not totally sure and then

she did like a half hour hypnotherapy thing I just it didn't seem to do the trick so I gotta figure out and I it's it's too awkward now for me to try and go back because she's like I fixed you and now I'm like well I guess I gotta find someone new I don't know I that sucks I feel like if my father could be hypnotized away from cigarettes then like you I to me anything's possible I guess yeah I know I wonder I feel like her approach was a very like holistic way of looking at it like let's really delve into your feelings and i'm like i do that all the time i do that at therapy i do that when i journal i do that when i talk to anyone i speak to i do that when i podcast i always get to the bottom of my feelings i don't want to get the

bottom of my feelings i just want to stop being afraid of the telephone and so i know there was probably good reason why she wanted to really delve into the emotional part of it. And I was like, just zap it out of my brain, you know? Do that part. Just a little zap. Anyway, so that's- Well, I'm sorry, that sucks. Because I have feelings people might have been wondering because I had mentioned it.

You had such high hopes. I did, you know? And now I'm wondering if maybe, if somebody could let me know, maybe email the the podcast email or dm me if you know of any like hypnotherapy online like maybe some like courses i can do or i don't know let me know if anybody has tried it and it has worked for you because uh i don't think m's going to be able to figure out where the hypnotherapist that worked on their dad is, or maybe somewhere in Virginia,

my friend, I'll have to fly to Virginia. Who knows if they're still proud. It's a lot more steps. I'll do it if it takes, if that's what it takes, but you know, with the internet, I'm sure someone online can help me. I don't know. If my mom were here, she'd tell you to take like a Tony Robbins course or something. Certainly not that. No, I, that stinks. I, of all the anxieties i've got i don't have phone anxiety but i feel like if we put our bingo cards together maybe we've got the whole gamut i feel like you and i make quite a pair for that reason like you know we really do trade off on each other's issues i think so too oh anyway that's my updates i just wanted to let people know before uh everyone started signing up for hypnotherapy and then blaming me when they didn't stop drinking Diet Coke or whatever.

Well, I have high hopes for you that it will be cured eventually. Thank you. It has to be. I can't do this anymore. We'll role play phone calls with each other sometime. Okay, that would be fun. Ring, ring, ring, because you're not afraid when I call, So I'll just pretend I'm a doctor or something when I call. And maybe I'll just change your photo every time to like a different person and just be like, who's on the other end. I'll just start calling you and be like, well, the results are in and you still have phone anxiety because this is a voicemail and you didn't pick up. fail hello this is the voice uh the voice answering machine

repairman and uh you have over you are the worst client we've ever had i keep out i currently have uh i'm gonna keep it this way because i currently have 69 voicemails that i haven't listened to is that on purpose no but it is now once i hit I was like, I should just leave it at that. I literally have voicemails for years. Like just years. I are like, and like my mom will say like, why don't you check your voicemail? And I'm like,

you texted me to tell me to check my voicemail. Why don't you just text it to me? Yeah, exactly. I'm certainly not going to know. Every time you check your voicemail, it's like, it's 2 32 PM.

And I'm like, dad, I know what time it is. You called me. I truly, I can't think of a time that somebody our age actually left a voicemail in the last five years or I left a voicemail for someone in the last five years. I can't think of it. I always leave voicemails because I always call off.

Only because I call doctor's offices when they're closed intentionally because I'm a lunatic. I don't even think I would know how to leave a voicemail anymore. I haven't done it in so long. For some reason, I'm a lunatic. I don't even think I would know how to leave a voicemail anymore. I haven't done it in so long. I'm good at that. For some reason, I'm good at that. If no one else is on the other end. Other than my grandparents, which like, but then again, that's not like, I don't know anyone our age I've left a voicemail for or vice versa. Truly since college, maybe? Not even. Yeah, I guess. Can you? Anyway, here's my voicemail. I want you to see that for everybody.

That is like 389. Oh, Jesus. Okay, so you're worse than me. Yeah, it's a lot. It's a lot. Well, okay, now I feel a little less bad. Because I have 69 unread voice messages. But they're all from the last couple weeks.

Because I do every now and then go through and delete them. But so these 69 are from August 20th, 2022 till now. Oh, wow. Mine truly probably go back to whenever I got this phone. People will look at my phone and say that it's very overwhelming. Like for my emails, it says I have 3,500 unopened emails. Yep. Yep.

I'm not proud of it i'm just saying i'm aware that there's chaos involved you know i posted a picture recently on be real and it showed like it just had part of my computer in the background and someone said oh my god 639 emails you're giving me anxiety and i like shifted it over and the other tab had 3820 i was like 600 is nothing i have like total i have like almost five grand okay like sit down like this is no amateur hour 5k 5k well anyway i'm i'm glad that i'm back with you do oh last question i'll ask you did you get any good christmas presents oh yes i got okay you're not really probably gonna care about this but it's it's uh it's very exciting for me blaze got me

this rise garden which is like this cool indoor garden where i can like i've seen these it comes with like solar lights and you can plant like all your herbs and stuff indoors gardening of the future so cool and i'm so excited because it'll it like really walks you through everything so that you know i don't have to go outside and accidentally kill my plants well especially also now on the east coast with seasons you gotta yeah it's such a pain in the butt have you seen the um i don't know if it's ads or news reports but they're like building or there's like there's gonna be a tower made of it or something there's like like on the outside it'll be rise gardens or maybe on the roof it'll be rice gardens it's supposed to be like a self-sustaining building or something but anyway um i'm sending you a picture the one he got me

i'm very excited about it because i'm gonna grow lots of pretty things uh i think it's this one although i think it might be the smaller version because this one's very expensive. Well, it's very cute. Yeah, I'm very excited. I haven't even set it up yet. What about you? Did you get anything fun? Yes, I got a few things.

The two stars, which were from my mother, they always are. I think she really tries to outdo herself every year. were from my mother they always are she's she i think she really tries out do herself every year and she got me um one of the back to the future props um which is i can confirm as fully a replica like a true to movie replica because the guy who runs the etsy shop was the guy who made all of the movie replicas for like universal studios whoa so it's definitely the the hardcore that's pretty cool and then my mom also got me a i asked for it thinking there's no way she'll get this for me and then she did and like now i'm like very intimidated because now i have to commit to this hobby is a 3d printer i'm so scared i'm so scared gargoyles gargoyles so many gargoyles i know i actually did think i was like a whole colony of gargoyles for my desk a colony a murder of gargoyles

a school um no i i'm very scared because we know that i get really intense interests and then drop them about four days later um but a 3D printer is like, and I had researched, because again, this was one of my spiral interests where I dove deep into if I were to get a 3D printer, what would be the exact one I wanted? So I know it's a very good one. And also it just, I am very grateful that someone got it for me, but now I really have to like learn how to 3d print.

So all of a sudden I'm about to have a completely new trade under my belt. But it's like my cricket machine where like, I'll go a few months without using it. And then I'll be like, Oh, I could do something cool with it for this project. Like, it'll be like a cool tool to have for like other spirals.

It is. It is. That's very true. Especially because like I have dipped my toe in like, in like Avenger cosplay stuff. And so like I can at least try to make props and stuff like that. That's so smart. They also like have files online that like I can at least practice with.

It's really going to be quite a journey. And I think I'm going to get fed up a lot, but I'll keep coming back to it. But I, be quite a journey and i think i'm gonna get fed up a lot but i'll keep coming back to it but i the one thing i'm really upset about is like i made the troll hole to like every place like everything's filled i don't know where i'm gonna put this thing now and it's obviously going in the troll hole i have no idea it's probably gonna have to balance on this little stand but then where do i put this like fun little cube guy so i we might have to do a, a Reno rookie mistake,

not leaving space for more chachkas. It really is one of my, I'm like this whole like blank part of the wall. I feel like a lot of people might think like, Oh, my wall's off center. No, this is fully perfectly uniform.

Oh, except I just leave a big blank space. Cause I know I'm going to get more bullshit. So I thought that was the smart spot to, to leave a blank spot on the wall. I didn't even think about the floor. What about in the closet where you have the storage stuff? Maybe one of the shelves you can shift to the end.

That's why I drink apartment and instead put the printer on the shelf. Maybe. We'll have to figure it out for sure. Because they may have outlets in there too. That's true. I'll have to figure it out. sure. Because they may have outlets in there too. Mm-hmm. That's true. I'll have to figure it out. Anyway, I'm grateful but scared. Same.

And with that, we've hit 20 minutes without talking about anything paranormal or crime related. But no, Happy New Year. I'm happy to be with you. And I'm very grateful that we've still have a show after all these years i just i i can't believe it i just sometimes i think uh i don't know if taking it for granted is is truly what i do but sometimes i i don't let myself sit with like how that our lives are i think we it's hard to yeah i think it's easy to get like, not jaded either. That sounds so negative, but just like to get used to it.

And then suddenly you're like, hang on, this isn't a fever dream. Like this is my real life. I know we're, the two of us are probably some of the luckiest people in terms of like, like a career. Like I get to work. I feel very fortunate. Yes. And I only say that because I was just having like a moment of reflection a couple of days ago and I was like, holy shit, like I can't believe this is our life.

And I also this is it's not meant to be like a brag or anything. This is just like kind of, I guess, like a it's meant to be a warm PSA. So I hope that that's how it's taken. warm PSA. So I hope that that's how it's taken. But when I was home, um, I got, this sounds, this is the most like famous celebrity thing I'll ever say in my life, but I got recognized so many times while I was home, like more than I've ever been. And I don't know what it was, but I think maybe I was like, I've, I think I was just like down in the dumps before, uh, uh, the holiday break. And I think I was just feeling really overwhelmed. Is before uh uh the holiday break and i think i was just feeling really overwhelmed i just felt like i wasn't like either doing enough or maybe i felt like

you know i am just constantly terrified of like what the next move is and things like that and it was it it felt cosmic that so many people just came up and just like said such nice things to me um about the show and they wanted me to pass on hot highs and hellos to you but it was just like it felt really um rejuvenating and so it was it was very nice so anyone who did um pop over and say hi or say something nice i really appreciated it it really happened in a time where i really needed it so yeah no i love that i feel like that goes into again, it's not necessarily a brag. It's just like, especially when you're doing, I think a lot of people can relate, like if you're doing a job behind a screen, or you're doing a job, and you

don't necessarily realize like, because how could you like an impact you're having outside of like your own little bubble, especially nowadays, like pandemic wise and everything so yeah it's just like a reminder like oh people care about what you do and yeah it felt very rewarding and i needed to feel that so i appreciate you guys so thank you yeah thank you for for letting us seriously do this and as a as a secondary psa to hop onto M's PSA um it's listen we're not like special you know if there's something where you're like I wanted to I want to be doing something cool or cool hobby like that's what we thought and then we did it so you know hobbies turn into careers sometimes and it's it's a very wonderful thing so um I might leave all of

you for 3D printing is what i'm saying yeah that makes me nervous but i'll just the second i learn how to 3d print a her scene shifter action figure it's fucking over you don't need me anymore okay anyway back to like with the thing that we haven't even talked about here's some crime here's some paranormal i hope everyone that was us being sentimental but also catching up but now you're here for some spooks yeah um to the person on youtube who lets everyone know that you know when we start talking about creepy stuff um know that you're about 20 minutes we're aware so wait should we talk about something else real quick just to fuck them over just like let them wait a little bit longer oh my god someone's ripping their hair out pulling their hair out someone's like i'm trying to be nice and do a service okay oh okay it starts

my friend who does that it starts right now christine today we're talking about the banshee i feel like we haven't talked about the banshee. And the closest thing to Banshee I've ever really known, which is like so far removed, is like X-Men. Like there's a Banshee. I don't even know that. Looks like a blue werewolf or something. Okay. That's all I knew.

And also I heard like wailing like a Banshee. like a banshee sure or um it i think in in charmed there was an episode of the banshee where like she was seducing men or something with like her or i i think she was seducing them and then when they got close enough she'd like scream and their i think that too oh herpes maybe i've always combined the two yeah i feel like they're similar but that's probably just me being ignorant oh well welcome because i'm also an ignoramus on this so oh uh so i will say most of the information i got for this episode is from a dissertation by a folklorist named patricia lysate lysat lysat and um so i just wanted to give a shout out um and i tried to keep it you know as informative as possible instead of me talking about the x-men the whole time so here we go thank god

so the banshee who's is she her pronouns thank you for normalizing pronouns uh is a death messenger oh cool which like girl power chill so chill so she's known to what do you know by the way before i tell you what she does i mean basically less than you i know that she screams okay that is true the end okay and i know she's dangerous i think like she's like enticing but dangerous i think yeah my understanding was always don't get near a banshee yeah if you hear the screams consider that a warning and stay away yeah yeah okay well she's a death messenger and she's known to uh she's known to appear to people which i didn't know she appeared to people i just thought you heard her but uh sometimes she will show up um and you can see her and she's there to announce an upcoming or recent death which is very interesting that you just mentioned your panic attack i just got like full chills because i'm like was she in the trader joe's

remember are you a blue lady on the ceiling was doing there i didn't know why she was screaming so loud stop it christine okay so banshee is uh an irish word it means the fairy woman or it also means a woman of the other world. We mentioned a couple episodes ago that fairies and the other world we kind of nodded at that just not too long ago. And not too long ago we also mentioned how wild Irish names are.

And I want you to tell me how you think Banshee is spelled. If it's anything like Saoirse it's worse. Saoirse. It's worse. It's Worsha. I'm sorry to our Irish friends.

Let's see. Just guess a letter. B-A-I-O-S. Here, I'll give you a hint. Banshee does not start with a B. For God's sake, I thought that was my only give it. I was like, at least I got the first letter right. G.

No, I, you know, I actually don't know if this means a Banshee or Banshee, but it's apparently spelled A-N space B-H-E-A-N space S-I. Wow. So I think maybe it's on beyond c on beyond zebra wait spell it a n and then what b what i'm wondering if a n actually is just like the article like n okay so assuming that's the case so please don't make banshee spell with an a n right don't make banshee spell with an a n b h e a n space s i oh what's a oh that came up with a different okay i'm not even gonna pretend like i know what this is saying let's see uh it was like oh yeah you're right a n is just i think uh the article the article okay thank god because i was like what is going on in ireland banshee at least the blutter start at least starts with a b i feel like everybody in ireland when we

were you were like it doesn't start with a b they were like what the fuck of course it starts okay sorry ireland i really disappointed you what else is new yeah they're not surprised it's okay now it's they're both in quotes for me and so i didn't know if i didn't i thought an might be involved in the word i see i see i see but no okay thank god it starts with a b because i really almost lost my brain for a second there okay but so again it means the fairy woman or a woman of the other worlds and banshee comes uh she comes in many forms she always as a woman love that but she can show up young or old um she always shows up not just as a woman she always shows up alone she always comes alone she always leaves alone um and which is interesting because

when i hear death messenger i think of like grim reaper and like she probably brings you with her but she's more just there to kind of like you know know, in the old timey, like, hear ye, hear ye. And they're there to just kind of deliver the message. I like to think of her as that. She's the town crier. Yes. That's a great way to put it. The town shrieker.

The town death shriek crier. Yes. Yeah. She always shows up alone. Many say she's dressed in white, which in my mind, a banshee was never dressed in anything. So that's interesting. You pictured her naked. Well, I always pictured her as a werewolf X-Men. With fur. Okay, never mind. But so she's said to be in white, but I will say this is probably because of an old mistranslation where instead of calling her the fairy woman i guess that's a close translation to the white woman and so i think it's just over time

become the thought that she's in white for some reason i've seen they merged it yes but she really can wear anything she can be in a dress she could be in robes they can be of any color and a lot of people have said that she is seen with golden blonde hair, but a lot of people also say gray. And they also, a lot of people will say that it's incredibly long. And that threw me off for a second. But I'll get to why they say she has incredibly long hair. Sometimes it's all the way down to the floor. Whoa, that's spooky.

Maybe she's screaming because she's stepping on her hair you know like maybe she's just tripping in the woods i would somehow bring this up and i i guess i knew i would force it into conversation but like i've been doing a little daily yoga practice just like a very very little yoga with adrian shout out youtube and um today i did one of those foam rollers because of course i'm already sore because i never moved my body and i did the foam roller and i forgot that my hair was down and if you get your hair cut and that's the worst i just like smacked my head back and it was five minutes before we recorded i'm like i will definitely be telling em about this on the podcast i don't know why i don't know when but there you go stepping on your hair always happy to leave an insert for you be careful out

there folks it's like when we were in school in pe and they had those scooters no and you'd be on Stepping on your hair. Always happy to leave an insert for you. Be careful out there, folks. It's like when we were in school in PE and they had those scooters. No, no. And you'd be on your belly. Nothing safe. Fingers or hair. Nothing safe. If you had long hair and you were on your belly and you were trying to push yourself with your hands. Oh, my God.

Your neck got cracked for sure. Danger zone, baby. So anyway, that's probably what the banshee's up to in the wood she keeps going ah and the reason why she has long hair or i don't know if it's the reason why but it would make sense why people think she has long hair is because probably the thing i did not know at all about the banshee is that the banshee is often seen with a comb a hair comb what literally never once in my life would i have put those two things together a comb and a banshee so she's often seen combing her hair it was very long so she has to comb it

obviously and uh that's that's i had no idea. That was like the most random fun fact of it all. If at like bar trivia, they were like, what does a banshee hold? I would have thought like a skull. Oh, but not a comb, not a comb. Definitely not a comb. She's also, you know, I always thought of the Banshee as like this big, monstrous, hulking creature. But she is supposedly very small. Sometimes she's only a foot tall. A foot? Isn't that crazy?

Whoa. I pictured like a small person, but not like that small. Like I thought 4'11 max. Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Or 4'11. Yeah. I definitely didn't think she was. Well, so her hair is not that impressive. Okay okay if she's only a foot off the ground that's a great point it's like hey god your hair is like eight inches girl like relax you're not you're not special but uh yeah apparently she's like

borrower sized so oh my i had no clue um. I wonder if it ranges. Maybe she goes from a foot tall to like. Because I feel like the stories I've heard is like she looks like a normal person. Yeah. So she looks normal. She at least has to grow six times her size. I wouldn't say normal. That's a stretch.

But like at least size wise, I always pictured as like. Like an average height person. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it was even more jarring for me because i really thought she was like massive like a 12 foot monster in the woods oh jesus but apparently she can she's like one of those sponges where it's like grow a boyfriend you dip it in water and she just kind of blooms that's beautiful um what a beautiful uh metaphor you just created there thank you uh but so here's the thing though

when you encounter her i have just given you a lot of visual aids on what the banshee looks like but a lot of people don't actually see her maybe because she's so goddamn small but maybe she you're like afraid to step on her like it's honey i shrunk the kids or something but when you encounter her most often you're going to hear her not see her which is why i think even it's honey, I shrunk the kids or something. But when you encounter her, most often you're going to hear her, not see her, which is why I think even it's been passed to us, at least that she's known to scream and wail and shriek and all this stuff. So her voice is supernaturally loud. Duh, if you're one foot tall and your voice is loud enough for the whole town to hear. Apparently her voice shakes the ground. And I don't know how um appropriate this

is to say but allegedly anyone who's even hard of hearing can hear her oh okay um that she's so loud so it's like super not it's not even like normal sound it's like yeah it's like their sense others others feel the chill no matter how they need to uh but she apparently like i don't know it doesn't say it here but it sounds like she breaks sound barriers um the sound will apparently strike you with fear and you can feel hair strand hair stand on your neck and your blood will run cold the classic like dogs howling and cattle freaking out um so the second she's around she says i'm in town what are you gonna do about it she's also to throw her voice and that's i guess super problematic because you can't tell if she's miles away or right next to you i don't like that you can't avoid her then exactly yeah and even if you think you're safe

maybe she's standing right behind you uh so she's so good at throwing her voice that people have actually heard her from several towns over so here's the good news i got good news for you and all this christine you better if you hear a banshee you're probably safe because the dying person usually doesn't actually hear the banshee screaming oh that's comforting here's the bad news oh okay tell me about this first before i start going on my like little soliloquy over here oh no no let's soliloquy it what okay i was just gonna soliloquize real quick i was just gonna say um that is comforting because when i have a panic attack in the trader joe's um not only do i think someone else died but i really do feel like maybe i'm about to die so it is kind of like both you know i'm like either i'm in big trouble and or someone

i know is in big trouble um thankfully it turned out to be neither but in that moment i was like wow this is the end inside this trader joes this is where it was going to happen of all places um so at least with the banshee you hear you're like okay i'm i'm free and clear right you are but here's the bad news is that if you're hearing it it's because someone you love is probably gonna i don't know if i that's really not yeah that's not much better huh so at least you're physically okay but get ready for your mental status to not be great that's too bad that's too bad so her timing is always right before or like immediately after a death so the earliest she usually shows up is three days before a death so i guess your

best bet i mean you were even saying you were just sitting around waiting for a phone call so that's kind of the experience you'd have on a you know with luck that she would show up in time for you to be able to say your goodbyes but often she's known to just show up on the midnight before someone dies oh my gosh that's the most common time scary if she hears you talking about her or asking others if they hear her she'll stop screaming which like sounds lovely like she's like oh i didn't know i was bothering you so sorry i was trying to be quiet as i'm breaking the sound barrier yeah no clue i was a disturbance you

could hear that sonic boom i'm so sorry yeah and you can apparently also tell her to stop screaming and she'll stop which it sounds like she's trying to be respectful but really it's i think a a piece to her game where she doesn't want you to know where she is or she doesn't want you to oh my gosh so no and and when i say a lot of people apparently have said like stop screaming and if you insult her at all she can also you know probably re-prioritize what's going on and instead of letting other people know that oh this person coming up is going to die she'll make room to harm you in some way before she goes on with the rest of her tasks um she's known to sprain joints make people temporarily go blind so gosh i guess not kill you

but certainly let you know the like that was a banshee and you fucked up. Yeah. Yeah. That's frightening. So just general rule of thumb, don't insult a banshee. Okay. Too bad we did a lot already. It's like, you look like a hulking 12-foot monster. You're only a foot tall.

Sorry. Oh, I hope she's got a good humor. I so too because i'm just i'm just listen i'm afraid of you gal i'm not trying to insult you i'm just intimidated i will tell you which like we're going to get to it later but it's usually if men are insulting her so i think we're okay great she gets it she gets it she's one of us yeah um the girls and the gays you know the banshee's there for them so so your pronouns i get it she's look she's a woke agenda she's a she's a bad bitch okay okay so she is known to exist all over ireland and she has other nicknames um besides Banshee and Bad Bitch like I just said she is also called the Keening Woman and so do you know what Keening means yeah doesn't that mean

like uh howling or screaming of some sort yes um and specifically or more specifically Keening can be for the for the dead so howling wailing crying for the dead okay and her name may have roots as old as the 8th century so interesting that i mean i guess the word keening has probably maybe just been around since the 8th century but it is weird that you know she's existed somehow she's been a blip on the radar a twinkle in your eye since the 8th century interestingly some people actually don't think she's a fairy even in your eye since the 8th century. Interestingly, some people actually don't think she's a fairy, even though her name means the fairy woman. That doesn't actually totally surprise me because I never considered her a fairy, but I guess I didn't really know much about her to

begin with. You also considered her like an X-Men or something. So I don't know if you're really the right barometer for that. Fair enough so uh one of the reasons people don't consider her fairies besides not ever having thought about it like me is that um unlike fairies she has no friends oh girl she has no friends no counterparts no real community and i guess in a lot of fairy folklore there's usually they're one of many right oh that's interesting because yeah and you did say earlier she she appears by herself every time she's always alone yeah and so uh interesting that she's doesn't have a buddy um in fact there are stories that she actually might be a human abducted by fairies oh lord isn't that crazy like a changeling maybe but i i don't know i don't know enough to

say yes or no but okay she she the the one of the rumors is that she could be a human abducted by fairies but she's able to return to cry anytime someone she knows dies which is just so torturous that's awful terrible it's really terrible this would actually track because well in some versions this would track because there is one version of the story that the banshee actually is only linked to one family and it just seems like a lot of people because maybe the family has grown over the years but if you're a member of that family only you experience the banshee interesting so you could be a an ancestor to her in human form in this version she shows up to announce deaths in that house specifically but the town can hear anyone else

in town can hear her crying so that's why most people say they can hear her not see her okay some people also think that the banshee is a fallen angel or an evil spirit and even further this is not i don't want to say it's my favorite take but it's definitely like a wild twist um some people think that she is the devil herself screaming whenever a baptized person dies because their soul is going to heaven and not with her whoa that wow okay i didn't see that one coming yeah me neither honestly i really didn't um what's interesting what's interesting about the banshee is i feel like there's a lot of folklore that somehow christianity takes over in some way or morphs in some way but the banshee there's actually very few stories where christians have kind of sunk their teeth

in and made their own version of the story that just happens to be one of the very rare theories that christians have thrown in of like oh it's the devil and you coming wishing that they could have your soul but thank god you won't see the banshee because you've been saved like something like that yeah you wish so so that's just one case of the banshee another version is that the banshee is actually the ghost of a woman being punished for her bad behavior which you would i know that also sounds a little christian um it's mainly actually because you would think purity culture you'd think oh lust or you know being on being a strong independent woman god forbid right right right but it's actually more pride because she loves her long long hair so much and she's always seen combing

and so at least it's not this the deadly sin we thought it was gonna be um i had this deliver me a liquid death sorry oh i love a liquid death this isn't an ad by the way i really know shit i actually even told myself don't bring up the brand because i feel like i'm just always pitching different brands and then just like i feel like people think we we like put we talk like this is supposed to be like an organic ad i wish i were smart enough to do that but i'm we don't do that we just we just talk about things we like and don't like um but no i really do love uh an ld you know so another update i tried tony tony's chocolate only for the first time i never had it how was it oh it was great um the one i liked the best was the orange hazelnut ah shit what's the what's the orange one and not hazelnut it's the

sea salt caramel that's my least favorite but i'm not a caramel person trash but i gave it to my mom and she loved the caramel one okay i actually don't like hazelnut so that's you don't like nutella not the way sick in the head you know how everyone went through a nutella phase i was not part of that i'm currently long live my nutella phase i don't think it's ever begun or ended it's just been like ever present i remember when Nutella was like remember bacon and how bacon had like a real yikes I mean merch candles bacon band-aids

yeah they were really their PR folks were on it I feel like Nutella almost had the same agency running for them in terms of like hot topic merch I think growing up as like German we just always had it around so it was never like a new commodity to me. But yeah, I do remember people getting into it.

I fucking love that shit. Tony Chocolone. By the way, if they're listening, which I don't think they are, but I'm just going to scream it to the heavens whenever I can. There was one flavor that they had that was limited edition and it needs to be the bar that they always have. It was like Pharrell Williams or something was like they collaborated on it. Who the hell is Pharrell Williams? Isn't that from Black Eyed Peas? Oh, Pharrell.

What is wrong with me? Who was I thinking of? I have no idea. Is his last name Williams? I think it is. But he had some sort of collaboration with them. Maybe it was for Black Lives Matter or something. He's saying happy because I'm happy.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it was, let me see, Pharrell and Tony's Chocolone. There has to be at least one thing about this. Oh, it comes up in the suggested. Maybe it... I found it. there it is a black ambition it was called the black ambition bar holy shit it was delicious i don't know no i think it was milk chocolate because i'm not a big dark chocolate fan i know that's what i was wondering i love chocolate too it was um it had like pretzels in it and nougat or something oh i got you i got you milk chocolate with caramel almond

nougat pretzel and sea salt damn it was to die for and he must have when he made that flavor he must have said like throw an extra scoop of pretzels in there for the for the fans i love a pretzel in a chocolate wow it knocked my goddamn socks off it was so good man so pharrell williams if you're listening to and that's why we drank know that you make the best chocolate bar i've ever had use promo code drink no i'm kidding again this has not been an ad because uh our our network is probably like can you stop like can you just stop advertising brands that anyway um where were we um so sorry to interrupt something about oh she's a she is obsessed with her hair and so she may be committing a deadly sin um there are so this is where i was talking earlier about um uh usually she's more upset

with men disrespecting her right so the banshee it feels like this is almost like an irish um not a what's the word when like it's a story with a moral to it like oh like a um a fable or maybe like there's like something to be learned at the end but the the the banshee basically the moral of the story is don't be gross with women don't be insulted don't insult women don't disrespect women don't uh consent is consent and no means no so we love this um obviously but most of the stories where like something bad happens to a person is usually when a man is disrespecting the banshee and like even tries to like grab at her uh there's been a lot of stories where the men try to steal her comb where a where she's trying to like

comb her hair dare you they'll steal her comb some of them have tried to like grab her some of them have tried i mean like i'm sure let's just throw cat calling in there um but it's usually when a man is being real grody with the banshee and then she goes i don't fucking think so um so uh there are stories of men who see the banshee combing her hair and then they try to startle her and she drops her comb this in one version of the story the guy actually grabs it after she dropped the comb and he takes it home she's pissed and she decides that she's gonna get her comb back and then the story i guess she actually can't get into your house without like the door being open or

something but she was she was standing on the other side of the door being very threatening and he ended up pushing the comb under the door to like get her away he's like here you go take your stupid comb um another time there was a story where she stood outside of someone's house because he stole their comb and a guy had to um grab like pass the comb through the window and he used tongs to do it because he was like afraid to get near yeah yeah get get over you shouldn't steal someone's comb in the first place i'm not sorry i don't feel sorry for you well actually a lot of these stories tell you to use an item if you're going to hand the comb back to her oh so you don't get touched well so there here's a quote from one

of the stories the man handed out the comb on a spade and the banshee thinking the spade was his hand broken into so she's gonna block you up if you mess with her comb okay gotcha she's like i believe in vanity i look good don't ruin my time also don't fuck with me don't touch me back off a lot of banshee stories were cautionary tales oh that's what it is a cautionary tale there's a thing i was there it is about bothering women who are out alone at night um so if you try to grab or touch a banshee she might slap you and it's been said that she will, leave the mark of her five fingers seared onto you forever. Oh, shit. Which, like, you fucking deserve it.

Yeah. Another time a man disrespected the banshee, she lifted him onto a windowsill and left him there for two days. Good. And when people tried to help him down, they actually couldn't do it, even the fire department, because there was an invisible wall somehow blocking them from getting to him. You've been punked. She was like, I said gonna stay here and that's that and that's that apparently people have insulted the banshee and thrown uh and she has thrown her comb at you and the comb if she throws it at you is like a fatal throw not like it's like an axe and she knocks your head off with it but it's like a it's a real indicator that you really pissed her off it's like an omen like i'm gonna throw my comb at you

the banshee's coming to get you or someone you love and there have been stories where um their family members have died the next day oh no that's terrible a lot of stories, I mean, I feel like I'm just like, maybe I'm over explaining. No, no, I love it. A lot of the stories discuss the danger of molesting a banshee. So there's a lot of stories where men have touched her without their permission. And so basically it's all if you see a woman out late at night, leave her alone. Yeah, I like that moral. So basically it's all if you see a woman out late at night, leave her alone.

Yeah, I like that moral. Yeah. So, so far, I love the banshee and I'm so mad that she hasn't been mentioned more in my life. Yeah, I feel like she deserves a little more spotlight. She would be running the feminist walks, like the marches. Absolutely. She'd be there for sure. Maybe she is there. Maybe she is.

Honestly, if you hear like just like a real cry, like just like a I'm proud to be here cry. Disembodied. Feminist. Feminist keening. Hopefully it's just a banshee really in her element. So another theory about the banshee is that so until until the 20th century in ireland and scotland there were actual keening women at funerals and their whole job was to keen for the dead um i don't know enough

about that but maybe i'm wrong it sounds like if the person didn't have enough people there to cry for them i've heard that that's a thing you could like have like body doubles like mourners to be at a funeral yeah okay so yes i mean i don't know that that's what that is but i have heard that that exists so maybe that's the vibe i'm getting so there were keening women at funerals um and this is a quote about them it says keens are said to have contained raw unearthly emotion spontaneous word repeated motifs and crying and elements of song so they would do it all they would sing they would you know there's a 1975 interview of someone actually having childhood memories of keens at funerals oh wow who talked about them saying it wasn't

just singing it wasn't anything you could describe it was a very melancholy chant, rhythmic, almost a spontaneous choir. Oh, wow. Oh, wow. That sounds powerful. So it sounds like you couldn't just audition to be a keener with like crying on cue. Like you had to, you had, there was more to it. Yes, I can see that. That's interesting.

So the theory is that banshees are the spirits of human keening, keeners. Whoa. Oh, interesting. Which I love that. That's really cool. I don't know if I love it, but it makes sense to me compared to some of the other stuff. Yeah. It's a really interesting idea. So one person said that his own mom used to be a keener and believed that she might become a banshee when she died she said something like oh and you know i hope i don't become a banshee when when i go oh my some families had their own on-call keeners for family funerals oh wow which i didn't even i had no idea this was a whole career but i guess you can find me in the book you know yes seriously and so banshees could be this is a little more detailed but i do like the sentiment in some way some families have their own on-call keeners and banshees another theory is that they could be those keeners coming back to cry for the family name

so they may be keeners returning to wail for descendants of the same family. Oh, interesting. And basically only when that family line dies out does the banshee disappear. Oh my gosh. So she's working nine to five, even after death. For real. She's like, the second I know of a death, I'm on call. So that kind of sounds like a, that actually sounds a little bad. It sounds like a purgatory, like you're still working.

A lot of work. Another theory is that Banshee might be your own ancestors coming back to announce a family death. I like that. I do too. It's like you're keeping it in the family, sticking together. Yeah, it's sort of like just a warning. It's like someone we both love is not going to be here for much longer or someone we're both connected to it's almost touching in a way

so there's a quote that i had never heard of before but apparently banshees are known to quote follow the max and the o's do you know what that means the max and the o's no so those it's supposedly that banshees are connected to old irish families who all all their names were max or o's oh that's funny o'brien mcdonald's um okay i like that a lot i like that a lot max and o's there should ireland get ireland on the phone you guys need a mac and cheese option get a mac and cheese option? Get a mac and cheese option for a craft mac and cheese box, and I would like the theme to be Macs and O's. And it's just macaroni and cheese in the shape

of O's. Okay. So SpaghettiOs meets mac and cheese. Anyway. Write that down, Eva. Do what you need to do, Ireland. I am rooting for you. Do your thing. Call it the Banshee... The Banshee... Hmm. We Banshee. The Banshee. Hmm. We'll shop it. The Banshee something. Banshee's breakfast. Banshee O's. Banshee O's. Oh,

no. I'm sorry, everybody. We're moving on. So Max and O's, yes, they're supposedly the old families of Ireland. And so if there's a there's a theory that the Banshees only follow the older families of Ireland. And even if you immigrate to another country, if you're still part of the Max or O's bloodlines, the Banshee will be able to announce your death. And it's almost a social privilege of, oh, I come from one of the longest standing families of Ireland. And so that's why some people experience the Banshee and others don't. And even if last names change, you might not know you're connected to one of the oldest families. And so it would make a lot of sense why it's so random. Yes, it would. I like that a lot, actually. It's just such a fascinating concept that it goes through generations. I love it. i also really like my max and nose idea for the food well okay i i'm yeah

just saying yeah uh so she might appear to um another thing that's because i was saying it's weird that she shows up randomly is some people might say well i'm a single mom like why is she coming to me or um you know she shows up for the sick and the elderly but sometimes she'll randomly cry for an accidental death. So, I mean, there's so many stinking theories about who the Banshee is. Or if there's multiple Banshees, maybe it's not just one. They are rarely heard of outside of Ireland. There actually is one story just to represent for you.

There's one story from 19th century Ohioio that claims that they claim that several irish spirits including a banshee just lived nearby just did i not tell you ohio some sort of weird ass portal for everything like cryptids and apparently banshees it's like oh my god this place they can't stop well you know what's interesting is that their thought process to why all these irish spirits all of a sudden showed up in ohio is because maybe someone immigrated there from an old family so maybe they were following them to ohio okay that's very interesting should i look up all the maxinos in the in town and see yeah do that okay that won't take but a minute. Take a few minutes. But so I do like the idea,

and it would explain why even in other areas, even though it's rare, if someone claims that they experience a banshee, maybe you're part of a bloodline. Interesting. Not only has the banshee said to follow immigrants, but she might also still report back to the family in Ireland. So even if you leave, your family in ireland so even if

you leave your family in ireland will hear if you've passed there are stories of people hearing a whale in ireland and then a few weeks later getting letters that their family overseas passed away that's sad so here um before i end things real quick i wanted to give you a few quick little stories about banshee encounters from the irish folklore commission shout out to them and this is one stories of a girl named eddie and she heard a banshee crying nearby and went to go see what it was she didn't know what the sound was and she found a woman combing her hair she thought that the woman was going to steal something or hurt her she felt in danger because the woman was hiding so she ran after her with a stick shouting to go away which means she had insulted it shit so the woman ran off into a

tunnel and eddie lost sight of her and when she got home she told her mom what happened and her mom was like homie that was a banshee and soon after eddie died and And Eddie died in a pretty tragic way. She was burned to death. Shit. For insulting the banshee, I guess. Eddie didn't know. Another story is of a girl named McKenna. And her sister was dying. And one night, the two of them and the rest of their group were sitting around a fire. And all of a sudden, they heard something pass by and then this awful

scream so they thought oh god what what happened so their brother goes to check um but there's nothing there the screaming has stopped and when he comes back it's almost like a mind game all of a sudden the screaming starts again oh boy he goes back to check and it stops he comes back to say nothing's there and it starts happening again it It happens all night until eventually, here's the creepy part, as he would come back and the screaming would start again. Every time it felt like it was getting closer to them. Oh, that's horror movie stuff. Eventually they realized it was a banshee. It went on all night and by morning uh mckenna's sister had passed away

oh that's sad so almost warning them all night long that it was coming yeah um another story is that there was one night there was this guy named john and he was walking home and past his neighbor's house uh where he saw the banshee in a tree combing her hair so i guess in this story she is not one foot tall um or he has fucking eagle eyes i don't know he just got new glasses and so he looks at her and he allegedly says good night but because she doesn't speak back to him i'm assuming he said something grosser i feel like there was a cat calling thing involved but he says good night to her she does not say anything back to him honestly he could have said good night because there's a lot of creepy guys out there who just try to find an opener yeah he said he said good

night she didn't say anything he said good night again she didn't say anything and eventually he was so disrespected that he said to her whoever you are i will make you speak and then he goes home to get his dog which like who do you think you are you little shit if he started with a dog she might have said hi to be clear seriously she's ready to talk to the dog not this guy uh so he she comes back and the dog wouldn't get near her the dog is scared of her now so he goes back to get his gun and to what to hold her at gunpoint to say good night to you seriously wow you win up so when he comes back uh she's gone she's missing a few days later uh because she had been sitting outside one of his neighbor's houses she was sitting out there kind of looking inside the house a few days later

one of the neighbors died and that night the whole countryside heard the wails of the banshee and somehow in this story john somehow got away with insulting the banshee and nothing touched him yeah i feel like that was a moment girl where you absolutely had the right to do whatever you wanted about that you on any decision you had there, but. I guess she was gone before she saw that like he was going to threaten her life with a gun. So maybe she didn't. He was already pretty nasty toward her. Yeah. I don't know what her. Maybe his punishment was that everybody in town knew he had. That's a good point. The banshee. That's a good point because the story has passed on. So yeah, it's like social punishment. I don't know. Yeah. Hopefully. And at the very least, on. Yeah. It's like social punishment. I don't know.

Yeah. Hopefully. And at the very least, we're not even hearing about general karma. I hope something kicked his ass. Yeah. And then I'll end on this. But fun fact, there's one neighborhood that has a stone called the Banshee Chair. It's a random stone that's in town. And this neighborhood claims that whenever you see, whenever someone in the area dies, the banshee will sit and cry in the banshee chair.

Aww. Just more proof that, you know, they either witness her or think she's there. Wow. So anyway, that's the banshee. I don't know if she's much of an escort to death, but she's definitely, like we said, the town crier. What a tale. Literal crier.

I mean, oh yeah, why did we even add on to that? She's the literal town crier. You said the word crier, and I was so excited as if I'd never heard that word before, but she's literally a crier. It is. It's literally what she is. I love it. Yeah.

Wow. Anyway, that's the Banshee. Good job, Em. Thank you. I love it. Yeah. Wow. Anyway, that's the banshee. Good job, Em. Thank you. That was a good one. Wow. Wow, wow. How to follow that up?

Well, I guess the only way I can really follow this up, Em, is to tell you a little bit about Stockholm Syndrome. Thank you. I'm so excited. Is this actually a story or are you just doing like a origin of stockholm syndrome and the psychology behind it so it's not that's what i was asking i was like so this isn't like an actual like both k oh there's also a case that you're gonna be that's where the name comes from from the from this case i'm gonna tell you

aha i see okay because i actually you know what i would like to hear every now and then which maybe i'm totally alone in this but just to broaden your topic horizons if you ever don't feel like doing a case i would love to just hear you do like informational reports on like how like on topics like stockholm syndrome like how'd that come to be or like a while ago we said there was another one what was the one i did about um people who are people who are like really with serial killers and like a romantic or who write to write yeah criminals i love i love that stuff i mean they sound like english papers sometimes of like and then this thing happened and this thing happened but i i just like information so i know and i i like those topics too especially because they do relate to crime so it's like you get both you get like the story of it but you also get like the original so if you ever feel like you just can't handle

something super dark but you want to cover a topic i'm so open to that yeah okay i will um i will ponder if you folks send in your ideas. I'd love to know what other people want to hear about. They're all going to write in and go, please don't do that. That's the worst idea. Don't listen to him. No,

but that one time when it's important to know if we're going to, if the, Hey, we're part of the true crime community. We need to be educating ourselves on things besides just like stories that feel removed enough for some people. Like, yeah.

I mean, I feel like even, yeah. When we talk about like stalking, I enough for some people like yeah i mean i might as well know yeah when we talk about like stalking i try to go over like you know the the tips and tricks and you know all that good stuff so i think it's definitely relevant um but yeah this is very important so the origin of stockholm syndrome the case that created the term and the psychology behind it. And this is actually a two-parter because it is quite a case. Like quite

a dramatic case. And if you're sitting here going, I don't want to listen to like a term paper. It's not. It's an actual crime case that happened in Sweden. Get it? Real quick. Can I plug my computer in i'm sorry i was about to say can i get a i'm gonna grab myself a little snacky real quick okay good good okay hang on i have some very stale cheerios next to me oh i'm listen'm listen. Still Cheerios are part of my life now with it with a

toddler. They never left and I don't have a kid. I love Cheerios. I think they're so good. That's me and my Nutella. It's like, you know, some snacks just stay for the long haul. Christine, very important question. What was your go to flavor of Cheerios growing up? Because I went through phases. Oh, interesting. I'm a honey nut gal. I have honey nut with me right now I think as I'm getting older I'm learning to appreciate the honey nut but when I was a kid frosted all the way and then my and then my mom was on a diet and so she thought getting the multigrain ones was like a thing I know so I ate multigrain a lot but if I had a choice it was frosted and now as an adult what I was just gonna say i don't mind plain which is

probably weird but like with milk i don't mind a plain i was gonna say now as an adult my go-to midnight snack is plain cheerios with milk it's like weirdly comforting somehow you know what's fucking great which i've probably said to you before do you know what my favorite cereal is and it's so raising boring it's a it's on par um crispix crispix i fucking love crispix i think i'm the reason i think i'm the reason crispix still exists you know i don't know if i've ever even really i like i know what it is it's like the the yeah but i don't know if i've ever even had a crispix i gotta say i'm a honey graham all the way i just love a honey gram. Honey gram? Oh, they're fucking great. Are you kidding me?

Well, it's your, now as an adult, what's the childhood? I'm sorry. I didn't mean honey gram. I meant golden grams. I knew what you meant. Honey gram is a cram cracker. You combined it with honey smacks. I think I combined it with honey gram crackers.

Oh, honey smacks. I never understood. That was my dad's favorite. And I was like, what in the 60s? No, thanks. Get them out of here. I love a golden gram. I love a frosted flake. I love a Reese's Puffs. honey smacks i never understood that was my dad's favorite and i was like what in the 60s no thanks get him out of here i love a golden graham i love a frosted flake i love a reese's puffs i love it see none of those for me i love really not even what about not honey to choose what about um honey bunches of oats that's my other favorite no what where did you learn to eat cereal

no i see i could understand reese's puffs because i went through the phase but i can't do it now it's too sweet now but i like if i had to get like a i'm calling a kid cereal but that's stupid like if i were to get like a sweet a sugary cereal sugary cereal um back when the chocolate was really good in cereal it was always either cocoa puffs or cow chocula but it's really been it's what a downhill like collapse for chocolate now it's like lucky lucky charms or tricks is my thing my least favorite those are the only two i can't stand really i love tricks cocoa crispies though like that a crispy i can always chocolatey that's good my i always do crispies i do tricks or i do crispics those are the main three that are not a tricks fan not a peanut butter captain crunch now that'll get your socks

we can agree with some banana sliced in there okay you really took me that's where we diverge two roads two podcasters diverge in the cereal aisle all right well back to this. Okay. Let's talk about Stockholm Syndrome after this inserted ad that was not an ad. For General Mills and General Mills only. We have, like, no self-control. We also just advertise, like, probably six different brands that are competing all at once. Kellogg's is pissed.

Yeah. I'm sure they were in there, too. Listen. Wow. Okay. So back to Stockholm syndrome. Let's do it. So a lot of this information comes from a book actually, which was written in 2020 or published in 2020. The author is David King, and the book is called Six Days in August. And I'm pretty sure they're actually making a film adaptation of this. So, and I've also watched a docu-series about this exact case, but for the life of me,

I could not remember what series it was, what show it was on. So I'll try and find that. And if I do, we can put it in the show notes. But this book, Six Days in August, is basically the first comprehensive telling of these events oh and the author david king interviewed all four hostages along with police and the criminals

involved because this is a very like complex layered story in other words get your gargoyles ready because oh shit okay there's a lot of like um there's a lot of, it's not, it's not too many moving parts, but it's just very layered of a story. And my gargs are ready. The gargs are ready. Get your 3d printer out because I'm going to need more than four. That's actually good. I feel like we'll get to it, but four is a good, a good amount to have for now. Okay, cool. So let's start off with just addressing the big elephant in the room. What is Stockholm Syndrome? So according to the Cleveland Clinic, Stockholm Syndrome is a psychological response to being held captive. People with Stockholm Syndrome form a psychological connection with their captors and begin sympathizing with them.

form a psychological connection with their captors and begin sympathizing with them. But this is already where it becomes more nuanced because Stockholm syndrome is not necessarily just about captors and captives. Cleveland Clinic says the diagnosis can extend to victims of any trauma who bond with their abusers. So it's not just like you're being held as a hostage. You can also have this experience with so an abuser i was gonna say is this i don't i don't know i don't know what the answer is and maybe you don't either but does that mean like if you were ever in an abusive relationship when you're like oh well i don't want to break up with them because you know they they're having a really it's a very minimal version like oh they're having a bad day and I feel bad for them and they didn't mean to do this to me.

They were just having a bad day. Yeah, essentially. It's pretty, exactly. It's like a gradual step into Stockholm Syndrome of like kind of... I think just the notion of, of any notion of siding with your captor slash abuser, it counts.

And truly believing it. And really feeling like no yeah exactly uh and and actually it's really interesting because um some people think that the psychological response is a coping mechanism to survive uh the trauma and abuse sure um and so it's sort of a coping mechanism in terms of saying like, just like rewriting the script in your mind, almost like siding with the person who's hurting you when from the outside, it doesn't seem to make sense. Sure. There are a lot of theories about why some people experience this trauma response while others don't. And this is probably one of my favorite fun facts about this topic. Some people believe that this is an evolutionary mechanism because for as long as humans have existed, there's been a risk of being captured by another social group, a warring nation, a different tribe, that kind of thing. And so it may be coded into our ancient instincts to bond with our captors uh it gives me goose cam such a wild

concept hadn't even thought about that but that makes total sense it does because i mean we do relate a lot of that like ancestral uh evolutionary stuff to modern day like when it comes to uh speaking in public like they believe that that's so terrifying because we don't want to be outcast from our social group because that means death, you know, like in the old times. Especially under the guise of like self-preservation or survival. Yeah. It makes total sense. Oh, let me assimilate. We still think that like our lives are at stake if we get, you know, kicked out of our social group or what have you.

out of our social group or what have you that actually makes it a lot more palatable to um it makes more sense with under that theory why it's it's so common to happen because it's just it i know it's such a maybe not a stupid thing to think but no i think i've never put that together and so it makes sense now like oh of course it happens to so many people because it's just a really a larger more macro version of like trying to just fit in for yes survival yeah sort of your survival instinct and again this is just a theory as to why this happens but i think it makes a lot of sense yeah um and so it's not only uh theorized to be a survival instinct, but also perhaps to just find happiness in your new life if you can't get back to your old one. So just a way for your mind to say, to adapt and say, this is my life now and I'm fine with it, you know, and like genuinely convince yourself.

Makes sense. And so all of this is very compelling, but here's the truth. Stockholm syndrome is not actually a legitimate medical condition. What? Yeah. So there was a 2007 literature review called Stockholm syndrome colon psychiatric diagnosis or urban myth where researchers looked at case reports involving Stockholm syndrome and they just could not find enough evidence-based science to prove it's real. In other words, there just isn't any consistent diagnostic criteria. Like there aren't enough clear symptoms and traits to point to to say this person has is exhibiting X, Y, Z, and therefore they have Stockholm syndrome. So they just were not able to develop a strong enough diagnosis. develop like a strong enough diagnosis so interestingly enough a lot of what we consider stockholm syndrome is probably just a mixture of traits from other actual diagnoses like trauma

bonding or ptsd uh kind of frankenstein together to form like what we now call Stockholm syndrome. It's sort of like too vague of a term, if that makes sense. Like they're just not able to narrow it down into, um, parameters that they can diagnose people with. So they just weren't able to label it as a real condition. Um, but it probably is just kind of a mishmash of all these other coping mechanisms that people exhibit when they're facing trauma. Interesting. Yeah, that's hard to swallow. But yeah, and you know what, I actually had heard this the first time I'd really looked into this was, I think it was either last year or the year before, when I covered, either last year or the year before when I covered, when I was writing the chapter on Elizabeth Smart for the book. And I remember re-listening to an old episode of ours, which is when I covered it,

like episode, it was within the first 10 episodes, I think. And I remember her mother, Elizabeth Smart's mother saying like, she did not have Stockholm Syndrome. And she was very adamant about it. And I remember feeling, and she was saying, Stockholm Syndrome is not real. She does not have that. And I remember thinking, that's so odd. Because wouldn't that explain why she went along with it? But I guess now looking at it, it's sort of like, just because these were her survival instincts to go along with her captors and stuff, doesn mean she had like some psychological condition. Like maybe she really was just- Had a strategy.

Yeah, that, yeah. Or was just dealing with her trauma in some way. I'm not really sure, but that was the first time I'd ever heard that. Well, that's double interesting because when you say Stockholm syndrome, my first thought is Elizabeth Smart. Exactly. And I wonder if that's why they've, you know, her mom has been so open about saying like, I don't, that's not what it is. I, you know, I'm not, I'm not a hundred percent sure. Um, but anyway, all that aside, uh, we're going to hop into what Stockholm syndrome actually comes from, like where the term comes from. So the supposed criteria for having Stockholm syndrome

often creeps into like bias, a very biased territory, which is another reason that it's hard to put parameters on it. So for example, the FBI might say that a symptom of Stockholm syndrome is having negative feelings toward authorities. But it's like, well, maybe that's warranted and it's not necessarily psychological. Like, I mean, in the story we're going to cover, you can see pretty clearly why the hostages have negative feelings toward the police. Right. Because they're like fumbling their case, basically, and like risking their safety. So it seems like it's not it's hard to put your finger on, in other words.

So the original Stockholm Syndrome case, pretty complicated, but very fascinating. So August 23rd, 1973, a man burst into a bank in Normalm, oh my gosh, here we go. Normalm Storg Square. Oh square oh god okay this is in stockholm norman storg square in stockholm sweden he was armed and wearing makeup a woman's wig and blue sunglasses okay he shot a few bullets into the air and shouted the party starts oh my god terrifying oh my god oh my god just oh chill so this dramatic entrance kicked off a six-day hostage standoff between two criminals and the police with four hostages caught in the middle. Six days this went on. 32-year-old Jan Erik Olsson walked into the bank that morning with two desires.

The first of which was he wanted 3 million Swedish krona, which would be 4 million today. And I believe that means 4 million krona today. And the equivalent of that in U.S dollars today is 380 000 okay so about 400 grand yeah about 400 grand uh in today's currency and the second thing he wanted is he wanted police to free his friend clark olufsen who was serving time in prison for one of his most recent crimes okay he wants three million krona on the one hand and then he also wants his friend Clark out of jail.

That's a big ask. I feel like when you go to I mean I know they're unhinged currently but if you're robbing a bank I imagine you, I mean I guess I don't know how much is in a bank but I feel like you would request

the amount that you think the bank could offer you Like an accessible amount, right, but I feel like you would request the amount that you think the bank could offer you like an accessible amount. Right. And I feel like half a million dollars is maybe not just sitting at the bank. And also, like, think about how heavy that is. That's so like, yeah. How are you going to walk out of here with half a million, four hundred thousand dollar bills? What? That seems like a lot. And well, imagine if it's in coin form. I was going to say, and remember, it's in krona, which is three milliona which is three million so three million bills well you better have be in dollars but i hope you've got a u-haul out back geez well like also on top of the third thing put a u-haul out back for no reason i want a u-haul i want basically half a million dollars and also release my friend from jail

like that's a lot to add like it just seems again i know like they're clearly being beyond irrational right now but i feel like that part you at least think through well just buckle up because it gets you're gonna be shook by bewildered okay you're gonna be bewildered by some of this okay so let's get's get into the friend Clark who's in jail, right? So you said earlier, he's in jail for probably a reason. Like he's probably there for a reason. He's probably been convicted on something. Yeah. On something. And you were exactly right. So Clark, he actually was a well-known criminal. He was considered like a bad boy of his time. He was born into a troubled home and at 14 he had became,

he had become a sailor and traveled the world. And when he came back to Sweden, he started getting into petty crimes. For example, he would sneak onto the Swedish prime minister's property and steal grapes from his greenhouse. All right. But.

Okay. Well, I'll get to that in a minute. I've stolen grapes from the grocery store to be clear so i imagine just a couple yeah you just like you grab like two and you're like this bag isn't good and then you try another bag you know yeah yeah yeah and then you try another one another one another one eventually you've eaten you've eaten lunch yeah eventually you're in prison and i have to go rob a bank to set you free i mean if it's for grapes

i really hope that as a as a first offense they would let me go but i don't know who knows it doesn't sound like your first offense if it's about grapes but anyway so in 1973 26 year old clark had just started serving a six-year sentence in a Swedish prison. And by this point, after his grape thievery, the grape escape, he had already achieved national notoriety for crimes like theft, prison break, bank heist, forgery, and attempted murder. And so what you'd think automatically is like, oh, this guy must be

public enemy number one, but no, because the police were really fumbling the optics here because the issue was Clark was super hot. Like super handsome. And so, you know, now I'm worried because I always get so nervous when I call people attractive and then they look them up and go what are you talking about no no but if you think he's hot he's probably a gay man because i know your type that seems to be what's his name clark what clark olufsen you want me to send you a picture i got it i got it we can definitely send a we'll put a picture in the geo oh he looks exactly like um Oh, he looks exactly like the guy who played It, Bill something. The guy who played Bill something?

Oh, no. That was just a weird picture of him. Hang on. No, the guy who played in the movie It. He played the clown. His name's Bill something. Oh, I don't know. But that was just... Yeah.

Hang on. You know, he just had that kind of air about him. Hang on. Bill Skarsgård. wait that that's who's playing him wait really that might be what we've accidentally stumbled upon well he's playing him in he plays him in a miniseries um a swedish miniseries oh maybe i found just a picture so it might have literally been him okay because i'm seeing different pictures of someone who's also named clark olson and i offered to send a photo i'm gonna send one yeah yeah oh i did already send one oh did you in

geo's trio see it yeah so that was just kind of he has that kind of like swagger of like aha not bill scars you can't catch me you know yeah he does have a bit of like a it's the mustache it It's always the mustache. He has that air about him, but it's also the eyes where he's kind of looking at you like, uh-huh, what are you going to do about it? I mean, from the nose up, good looking dude. But then I feel like mustache to patchy goatee. But you got to remember it was the 70s.

So like, you know. Right. I'm sure he, maybe if I saw a smile, but you know, whatever. He's handsome. He's fine. For a mugshot where he's all beaten up, like he's looking pretty okay. Yeah, he's looking fine. He's looking all right. So in any case, Clark Olofsson, he is a good looking dude and he's also charming as hell. He knows how to pull out these one-liners. He is weirdly photogenic, very snarky with authority.

And he like nailed his one liners. And so people ate up his interviews and were like, he became like a folk hero, basically, in Sweden. Like people just loved him. In fact, one newspaper named him among Sweden's top 10 most influential people. Oh, wow. That's how beloved this guy was. This is feeling a little gross so far. Yeah, so the reason that people seem to admire him so much

was that he never harmed civilians. Like he never hurt anybody. It was sort of like a Robin Hood. He got like a Robin Hood reputation because he was robbing banks and refused to hurt people in the process. It's sort of like that gentleman robber I talked about back in the day. So at least we're not like we're not like I don't know if sexualizing or glamorizing. We're not glamorizing like someone who has physically harmed people.

Out to hurt people. Yeah. And he's definitely like doing bad things. So don't get me wrong but right people just appreciated that while he was kind of he was like a bad boy without going too far like he's good looking and technically harmless very technically harmless technically harmless depending on how you define harmless okay i get it i got it i got he had been known to shoot at police but like never shot somebody so it was like well we'll let it slide maybe he was missing on purpose to look yeah

i don't know yeah so there yeah yes that was kind of the vibe people are like well he just doesn't want to hurt anyone and he's so handsome and funny and like charming you know he just had that like vibe um so anyway it was not overly shocking to anybody that he had this theatrical friend jan uh who was ready to risk his own life to rescue him from prison so jan himself was a master safecracker with a history of his own bank heist and he and clark had become friends in prison and so once he was out he was like okay i'll get you out buddy i'll rob a bank and i will negotiate with police and we will get you out of prison that's the plan wild because if you just got out of jail for a bank heist why on earth would you risk going back to jail for a bank

exactly exactly quite a bold fucking move so the police were on scene so quickly once this uh guy walked in and started shooting in the ceiling that people assumed okay his plan was a bust he's gonna go on the run but no he had other plans big plans he shot toward police and actually hit one of them in the hand and so now they knew this is like high stakes very dangerous he's armed uh and he then says i would like to talk to someone with authority so jan made a male employee named beau nielsen tie up four women in the bank to take as hostages then he told beau to go find the police so he could open negotiations so beau went out as like the spokesperson and wildly the police said to beau okay uh go back down and tell yon that we uh will negotiate with him and beau was like

and tell Jan that we will negotiate with him. And Beau was like, no, I just walked out here to safety. I feel like, what year was this? 73. So I'm just wondering like what on earth was the hostage protocol at the time to be like, oh, tell the guy to go. I don't think there was one necessarily. Uh-huh, okay, sure sure at least not in sweden maybe and i will say sweden was known as a very peaceful

progressive country and maybe they never so maybe they never even thought of it this isn't something i think that was like a normal occurrence there but that's also like then in that case like maybe that's why they thought like oh he'll be safe even though he's walking back into. He'll be fine. He's not going to hurt you. It's a safe place. This guy's clearly for show. I don't know.

Yeah. No, but that's exactly what it was. And I think you're getting you're getting right into the heart of the matter, which is that the police started really bungling things up front because they were risking all these civilians lives. jungling things up front because they were risking all these civilians lives so it becomes pretty easy to see why the hostages turned on the police and said like you guys are the ones who are putting us at risk i see you know got it and so this is just the beginning of that so basically the police boat gets out he escapes as one of the hostages escapes and then they tell this hostage why don't you go back in there and talk to him and he's like no that's not my job it's like i'm sorry but there's now one less hostage in there you want me to make it a you want me to break even again to go back yeah it doesn't make

any sense so they wanted this random bank employee to go tell yon to put his weapons down and surrender as if that was going to go over very well so Bo obviously said no way in hell and he retreated to safety thank god so now Jan was in there with his three hostages 31 year old Birgitta Lundblad 21 year old Elizabeth Oldgren and 23 year old Kristen Enmark and he actually specifically chose these three women because he thought police would hesitate to shoot at women, especially young women. So they're 21, 23, and 31. Jan then moved the hostages to the bank vault where he felt he was safe from the police and where it would be difficult for the hostages to escape. And weirdly enough, this whole time he was speaking English to the hostages.

So they were kind of confused about where he was from so in the 70s like i kind of mentioned briefly a minute ago sweden was making international headlines as a socialist country renowned for its safety free health care free education progressive stance on women's rights robust welfare system swedish people thought of themselves as peaceful and progressive it's just you know it was considered like a wonderful peaceful happy place to live uh and so the hostages when they're encountering this violent robber and he's speaking english they're thinking well this guy's not swedish right so they thought he was just a foreign terrorist okay however he was a swede he was

just speaking english to conceal his identity oh okay he didn't want them to know he was one of their own i guess so along with his makeup and wig he really just pulled off this different identity even police assumed he was a totally different person. They could not figure out who the hell he was, even though he had really just been in jail for bank robbery. They couldn't place him, you know. They couldn't just like look up a record or anything. No, couldn't place him. So, of course, pretty immediately the situation became a media frenzy. People were gathering around the bank to watch it unfold.

And up to 73 percent of the entire country was watching this story unfold on the news especially through radio shows and um and this is where you're gonna get bewildered okay so in one of the first of many controversial decisions police agreed to one of jan's demands okay which one the half a million dollars are letting a convict out they decided to release clark from prison to join jan in the bank shut the fuck up wait hang on not kidding you so now they've got two people that are against them why yes did they ever release like oh an explanation not a good one they went i don't know i guess he would we thought that's what he wanted oh my god so they literally get him out of prison and deliver him to the bank to join his friend in this hostage situation it's

not even like oh we released him and he's safely at home and free. You can go hang out with him now. It's it's oh, let's bring him here. He's part of this. Let's add another criminal to the mix. Yes. Yes. So sure. Why not? OK. Several officers stood inside the bank and spoke to Jan, attempting to keep him calm until Clark arrived, hoping it would keep the hostages safe from his kind of erratic mood swings. So Jan was clearly getting pretty stressed under the pressure of negotiations. He was controlling his hostages. He was trying to stay out of the line of fire of police.

And when Clark showed up, police told him this was his chance to do a good deed they told clark we want you to convince yon to release the hostages and surrender which is also what they told beau earlier and beau was like fuck you we'll try it with like we'll try it with someone who's actually like not an upstanding citizen currently yeah yeah yeah and someone who also probably is gonna side with this guy yeah he's not gonna side with the police and so they're like this is your chance to do a good thing which i'm sure spoke volumes to this guy okay i guess they thought i guess they thought like well we released you and now you owe us yeah maybe you'll do a favor for us but he i don't even know how they didn't think flawed logic so flawed what are they he's

gonna feel guilty that they let him out i don't think so right um so they tell him this is your chance to do a good g good deed um at this point again they didn't really understand that who jan was and so they didn't realize that he and Clark were actually really good friends. Like they thought, oh, maybe they just he just knows of him as like a folk hero and he wants him out of jail. But it didn't even click for them that maybe he had some sort of investment in the person he wanted out of jail. Nope. They thought maybe he just saw him as like a folk hero. And did they just wake up this morning? Like what happened? What's going on are they toddlers what's going on earth to swedish police hello so clark who also had already been known fun fact for several successful prison breaks uh was like cool cool sure yeah i'll tell him to um turn himself in and i'll go back to

jail sure whatever you got it boss you got it boss and uh instead he walked in said this is a fucking great opportunity to grab some ransom money and go on the lam with my pal uh wow what a shocking twist not at all so over half the country was watching this in awe as police purposefully released a notorious and violent criminal into the bank to join yawn and his four hostages it's just like on god's green earth are you kidding me totally that shit so once clark arrived he promised yawn that he would keep his identity a secret and he did he never referred to him by name by name to the police to reveal who he was. For what it's worth, Clark's presence calmed Jan down. He stopped yelling at the hostages. He

stopped arguing with the police. And this allowed the hostages to calm down a bit too. Now that the general environment was a bit calmer and Jan's mood was stabler, they felt a little less threatened and at this point clark convinced jan to let him untie the women and he told them all he told them all they were safe and they would go unharmed they would go home unharmed as soon as the situation revolved so he told them you know what i'm gonna unshackle you. Go eat. You're safe. You're seeing now how they could have sided with the guys. These guys are aware of our safety.

Yeah. They're like more so than the police, at least. Yeah. The police are like, okay, well, now that we see that you're safe, go back inside where it's not safe and go report the news. And then these people are like, we're going to unshackle you. You're okay. You're safe.

We don't want to hurt you. And guess what? He said, why don't you go eat some food? The police brought some food for us. Go have a snack, fill your tummies. I would immediately side with them.

Talk about a way to your heart, right? Yeah. But like not, I mean like truly I would say I'd be like there. I mean, I would still obviously have my guard up and I'd be like very wary that this was a trick or something. Sure. But like say i'd be like there i mean i would still obviously have my guard up and i'd be like very wary that this was a trick or something sure but like i'd be like damn

like they're definitely making me feel better than the cops are right now yep yep yep yep yep exactly and it only gets worse who have no protocol for a hostage situation who don't seem to be following any sort of logical no sense of urgency nothing, no safety protocol at all. So he tells them, okay, the police had brought food during earlier negotiations. He even brought a phone into the vault so everyone could call their families to chat and connect with their families and tell them they were okay. Immediately, I would just be, I don't know, I would at least be conflicted. I think the sense of relief would at least be a big player. Like I think I'd be at least relieved,

like thankful that they didn't immediately harm me. Yeah. Yeah. So Birgitta's husband was still at work when she called and her mom didn't pick up. She started crying and Jan told her, don't worry that they didn't pick up just wait and you can try again in a few minutes oh my god patient with them this does feel like the gentleman robber I

mean isn't it though yeah it's like I'm sorry you got caught up in this I I mean really if they they should have I know that they probably had to use hostages for like the dramatic flair but I wish they had just done this like on a lunch break when like no one was there or something you know but then they don't have any power because then the police can just shoot in and it's like they don't risk killing the hostages you know that's true um the women were surprised that their captors arranged the calls uh when police had offered no such thing and in fact some of the women's families didn't even know they were being held hostage until they called until the captors let them call home oh my god the authorities had not contacted their families to let them know their daughters and wives were being held hostage

so talk about that would be bad look front page news today. Front page news. Not good. It's like the the mom or whoever is like, I'm sorry, you're what you're being held hostage. Why can you imagine me being a mother? Fine. I mean, hey, mother, can you imagine someone just saying like, I'm literally a hostage right now in a bank robbery? And like, no, but and and by the way, my captor thought it was okay for me to tell you so

that you're not too worried about my safety and by the way they're feeding me and the police aren't telling anyone the police are trying to send us back in here so it was perhaps the first thing uh that started winning them over to their captor's sides this uh this connection that they gave them to their families like giving them things that cops won't yeah so six hours into the robbery clark found another employee who had been hiding in the bank oh shit yeah is the do you think take a turn uh no oh not quite not quite he finds 24 year old sven softstrom hiding in another room. So when he had heard Jan's initial entrance, he decided to lay low until help arrived, but then quickly realized help was not arriving because this was a standoff.

So Clark said, oh, you must be hungry. And he walked him back to the vault to join everyone else. And he told Jan, be kind to this man i was like this is sven sven everyone everyone with the class okay um again clark is now being painted whether it's manipulative or not is being painted in this positive light to all the hostages. But again, Clark could have just let Sven leave and didn't. He knew the power of having another hostage on his hands. And so Jan, again, did not know about this Sven guy in the other room. So Clark could have let him go and not told Jan about it.

But no, he figured having a fourth hostage was worth exploiting. So he brought this fourth hostage in. This is a sidebar, and maybe you're going to talk about it later. And this is not to sound victim-blaming at all. I think it's actually a fascinating... I feel like this part should be talked about more is like, now that everyone felt like these people weren't a threat, why didn't everyone in numbers like tackle them or something and get the gun out of their hands? You know, it's interesting that they were, they just felt safe enough. They didn't even feel the

need to tackle them. You mean as the hostages? Yeah, the hostages. Yeah. Because I think at this point they feel like they're not like these people aren't even a threat it sounds like to them yeah but i think they feel like protected by these people more than yeah more than the police like they almost feel like uh the police are more of a danger to them at this point than interesting than the hostage takers than the robbers because they're they're treating them kindly. And they do keep telling them, like, you'll go home as soon as this is over. And so I think they're starting to believe, you know, okay, well, they've followed through on all their promises.

They've been feeding us, being kind to us, taking care of us. Like, why rock the boat, you know? Why rock the boat? And, like, maybe they genuinely will let us out of here uh so days went by full of failed negotiations and at this point oh my god the police they are just dropping the ball left and right they've decided that jan is a man named kaj or k. I'm not sure how to pronounce it. K-A-J. Okay.

And they decide. Okay. We have figured out who this is. By the way. Again. Just to clarify. It's not this guy. It's not Kai.

It's not Kaj. It's Jan. But they just haven't figured it out yet. So they decide to send Kai's 17 year old brother. In. To. What on earth? Are you kidding me? They decide to send Kai's 17-year-old brother in to the bank. What on earth? Are you kidding me? To reason with him.

They're just integrating more and more hostages into the situation. Do you think they're high-fiving outside by their police cars going, we did good today. We were doing good. Good job. Good idea. It's like Family Feud. Good answer.

Good answer. Even though it's like family feud like uh good answer good answer even though it's like a fucking terrible answer so like that's gonna get zero points but good answer good answer so question in this movie is it gonna be like a comedy like when it comes out because how on earth are they gonna make this you know i don't know because this almost feels like the three stooges or the police or something like i know they've already done a series on Netflix. I started it. It made me feel kind of weird.

They were doing some weird, I don't know. It started with like a weird birthing scene where like he was like a full grown man as a fetus. And I was like, I don't love this. That's actually Benjamin Button. You missed. You walked into the wrong theater. It felt like it. It felt like it.

And I was just like no i'm not feeling this um so i'm sure i'm sure the rest of the series is fine but i just like couldn't get into it but um i don't know about this newer this newer one i wonder i wonder what the tone will be because it could be dramatic and it ought to i mean it's definitely i'm very aware that these people are still hostages in a bank robbery but like if you're doing it from like like it wouldn't be hard to find a way to turn that into a comedy at least like the bumbling cops like oh what's one more hostage throw the brother in there like totally and by the way a brother of a person that's not in this bank like remember they think it's they think this guy is high person that's not in this bank. Like, remember, they think this guy is Kai,

but it's not. It's a totally different man. So they send, by the way, a minor, a 17-year-old into the bank to talk to his brother. And he's like, that's not my brother. Like, he goes in there and he's like, what the fuck? That's not my brother. Why did you in there and he's like, what the fuck? That's not my brother.

Why did you send me in here? Oh my gosh. If Olivia Benson were here, oh my God, the entire squad would be fired. We talk about a banshee. She would show up and raise some fucking hell is what I got to say about that. That would be the real crossover. Olivia Benson and a banshee. Take on a bank robbery.

There's a joke in there somewhere i don't know if there's a joke but there is a oscar award winning film in the making there is an academy award to be to be had yeah okay so uh they send this 17 year old boy in with his friend to reason with kai but when they headed toward the vault yon who was not their brother or friend shot at them oh my god they retreated and police told them no no try again yeah they said don't worry he's not actually shooting at you trust me says the guy with a bullet through his hand yeah yeah and like what does that even mean they're not actually shooting at you. Trust me, says the guy with a bullet through his hand. Yeah.

Yeah. And like, what does that even mean? They're not actually shooting at you. What? Okay. Okay. So they tried again and they got shot at again. And Clark shouted at them to stay back saying, can't you tell he's serious?

Yeah. And Jan yelled that nobody named Kai was in the vault and they needed to leave so now police are hashtag embarrassed because they've just risked more than two innocent lives seemingly at random they hushed up the incident with kai's teenage brother and friend so that actually never really made the news they were able to like put that on like on the deal that one they buried that one for sure so meanwhile clark is using the phone to contact his friends in the press because remember he is known as this kind of folk hero yeah and so he has a little bit of sway in this in this media circus that's going on. And so several papers started publishing sympathetic articles, painting him as an underdog, standing up to banks and their greed. Many people felt he had a Robin Hood type air about him and he was basically milking it for all it's worth. basically milking it for all it's worth. Then he called his buddy, the prime minister.

Remember the one with all the delicious grapes? Oh, yeah. I forgot about him. Yeah. So he called the prime minister. No one even verified the caller questioned his identity. He said, this is Clark Olofsson. And they just put him through to the nation's leader. They were like, OK, he's available. Here you go. Can you imagine? I literally don't even know what that means. That sentence feels like something that came out of Parks and Rec or something. It makes no sense. So meanwhile, police continued to move sharpshooters into the bank lobby, occasionally engaging in fire with Jan.

The hostages at this point fully believe that the police are putting them in danger. Not only could they get caught in this like ongoing crossfire that's happening, but every time someone opened fire, Jan got more nervous and desperate. And he started talking about hurting one of the hostages to prove he meant business. Oof. Okay. So is he turning on them? He's turning on them. Yeah, a little bit. And so the hostages are now getting mad at the police. They're like, every time you shoot at this guy, he's getting mad at us and threatening to hurt us because he's getting so nervous. Also, like you're so scared to come in because you're afraid that he's going to shoot. Why do you have no problem aiming a gun at him while we're sitting here like come on

we're in there like trapped yeah like you had no problem also telling the minor like oh go and he's not really gonna shoot at you it's like shooting at you if you really believe he's not gonna shoot at people then you walk in like this is not my job be fucking bold and so excuse me oh am i boring you yeah a little no it's my own story okay um so like i said every time uh the shooting would happen he would get more nervous and desperate and more frenzied and on edge and so he started talking about hurting one of the hostages to prove he meant business and he promised the hostages he wouldn't mortally wound anyone but he said he would be willing to injure them like shoot their hand so to speak or their foot or their whatever to prove his point so they're now at risk again and clark said it had to be Sven, the man, if it came down to that, because he couldn't

bear to hurt a woman. So Sven accepted this so readily and graciously. We love Sven. Wow. He was like, I don't want any woman to get hurt. By the way, like like talk about a story for the rest of your life like that's that's so scary talk about hometown hero you know yeah talk about honorable yeah yeah so he says i will step up if i if somebody has to get hurt it'll be me

um he actually was so readily accepting of this that in interviews, Clark, who had suggested shooting him, remembers feeling deeply ashamed for even suggesting shooting Sven in the first place. What a little ragtag. I understand that this is supposed to teach us how Stockholm Syndrome came to be, but I already get it. It makes sense, right? It makes total sense like it makes sense right it makes total sense like just it's just a bunch of empathetic people and some of them were i mean some of them were definitely doing wrong things like let's be clear like i have not forgotten that but like to still have some empathy is like yeah you never hear about that in a story and there's i mean there's

that element of just like you know you see the two threats to you these criminals and the police and you're like well which ones are making me feel safer it's not the police so sure i'm gonna side with these guys like i can see why that would happen which like that just shows you like how um how little they were trusting either the police out there or the community in general because like the guy who's saying i might have to shoot you through the hand you're trusting him more and like he yeah he at least feels guilty about it like he's like at least the guy who has to shoot you i do hope that they had a conversation by the way beforehand but they were like how about you shoot the gun over there and i scream and we wrap my hand and it looks like he shot me now that is genius that way no one has like you can

feel ashamed all you want but like we just pretend yeah yeah that's good and that's really good any anything to keep myself from getting shot is kind of the route that i'm going the swedish police are gonna send you in in a minute why don't you go talk to them you have some great ideas. So Clark and Jan, the two robbers, continued to demand the three million krona. And they also wanted to leave. This is their new demand. They want to leave with two of the women to ensure their escape. So they said, now we want to take two of them with us. Okay.

Authorities refused to negotiate. we want to take two of them with us okay authorities refused to negotiate so when another morning came police asked to see the hostages to confirm their safety and they were shocked to see the women were in good condition but glaring at the police oh glaring so kristin said she just couldn't understand why the police wouldn't let cl and Jan leave with two hostages just to end the whole ordeal. On the phone, she told reporters that she genuinely trusted Jan and Clark, and she thought if they all left together with the ransom money, she would end up way safer than she was in the standoff. She was angry at police for repeatedly engaging Jan in open fire and putting all four hostages at risk and when kristen tried to talk to police they shut her down uh which was shocking to her and to the public it seemed unbelievably cruel like she's the victim and she's trying to speak

to them and say like this is what needs to happen and they are just completely shutting her down. But what Kristen didn't know is that Clark had previously told police not to talk to the hostages. OK. He said too many negotiators would confuse and stress, yawn out and get him riled up. And they were acting according to his demands. So they were basically shutting down uh shutting down conversations with the victims because of that so now kristen felt clark cared more about her thoughts and needs than the police did because they're just shutting her out he was successfully playing both sides essentially being manipulative enough to get the police to do what he wants and also get the hostages to think he's on their side yeah however the hostages were also getting angry that they felt they weren't worth the ransom yon demanded uh because they said if the police just handed

over the three million their ordeal would be over but it just was not happening like they let this other criminal out of jail as part of the ransom demands but they won't give the three million so they were like so we're not worth that right as the hostages we're not worth that okay eventually police offered to let the men leave with one of the hostages they were like we'll negotiate which also makes it sound like they're just commodities like you can't take two of the hostages but you can take one of the hostages it's like that's also not comforting not a cute look like which one like you're just gonna send one of them off and so they said you can leave with one of the women but the women refused to separate and send one of them with two criminals on her own and they could not understand why police would not just listen to their desires since they were the

hostages after all so on the phone with more reporters elizabeth said she trusted jan and clark she was only afraid of the police who might open fire and put everyone at risk again. Fair enough. Yeah, fair enough. So Clark and Jan felt trapped. If they didn't get their money and leave with two hostages, they would be going straight to prison. So they were kind of like stuck in this point. Meanwhile, police also felt trapped.

They said they couldn't possibly trust Jan and Clark on the loose with two innocent civilians. And people felt this would be a fair argument if police hadn't put Clark in the building to begin with. reason that he's there yeah you can't say well we don't know if they're safe with the two criminals when you put them in a room with two criminals and now you're worried about putting them in a room with two criminals yeah amen it's like well why is he even here oh oh wait i remember right you shuttled him over so at one point kristen called the prime minister directly this poor prime minister is getting like so many phone calls uh he's just trying to lounge in his grape garden or whatever the fuck i'm surprised he hasn't called anyone he's like can we not just have him directly have contact with me like can't someone take a message for me or something some but don't i have an assistant it's like why is he being perfectly

right away being dispatched right to my personal source? Yeah. Yeah. I was like, I've got a nation to take care of. This is embarrassing. I'm busy with my grape orchard. Okay.

Leave me alone. So Kristen called the prime minister directly. Also love that they all just happened to have his direct line. I know. It's like, what is he on speed dial? From inside a vault. They're like,

we have his line so like that makes me think now that like clark or whatever just like was now giving out the prime minister's number he's like we'll skip through the secretary oh you don't talk to him oh hang on maybe you just don't have his new number here here's it is oh here's his new number yeah he gave it to me when i when he caught me in the grape garden the other day. So she calls the prime minister directly and she criticizes him over the phone for playing chess with her life. He tried to defend his position and his reasoning, but she told him she now saw the police as the enemy for putting her in danger and failing to save her. Fair enough. In a later interview,

Kristen says the prime minister asked her, would it not feel good to die at your post? Ooh, she was shocked, but the comment never made it onto the radio or TV. The prime minister denied ever saying it, but Kristen insists he did. And she says the phone call was edited to cut out several minutes of their

conversation and for what it's worth no one involved in the recording has ever denied that parts have been cut out so it's entirely possible to tell somebody a young woman who works at a bank wouldn't it feel nice to die for your job are you kidding i poof asshole that's a rough one and that was a prime minister is that that yep so he's allegedly allegedly but like he would so he would have been fine dying at his post yeah that's what i was thinking i was like hmm interesting so like if clark decided to walk into your place with a gun like wouldn't that feel nice maybe you would have been fine with it since you guys just text each other or something. Since you guys are BFFs or whatever. Jeez. Yeah. So she got that horrible call and was shocked, was not happy about it.

The recording of their phone call ended up all over the news. And Kristen's mom actually called Kristen in the vault where she was being held hostage to scold her for being rude to the prime minister oh because they played that conversation on the radio well that's a narcissist mom right there i think i mean that is just that's a toxic mother right there that is so toxic to feel like oh even my own mother thinks well like first of all wrong well not only that but like like her first thought isn't i'm safe like it's like oh thank god you're safe and you deserve to want to you know be mad that nobody was there for you nobody i mean no one even told her if i were the mom i'd be like no one even told me that she was in a hostage situation or if she

was safe. The police didn't do their job and she defends herself. And now I'm going to be mad that one, she's like alive to haul someone off, but also that she said it so rudely. She said it in a rude way that's going to make us look bad in the eyes of our neighbors. Also, like, by the way, if it were a man, would it have come off rudely? Just saying. Honestly, no, probably not. It would it have come off rudely just saying honestly no probably not it probably would have come off as noble if sven had gotten on and said you're playing chess with our

lives with the lives of these young women he'd have been an honorable man what a hero yeah no you're 100 right so oh so frustrating this wow talk about getting riled up. Happy New Year. I'm telling you. Like, it's complicated. It's not, like, super convoluted. It's just, like, so bananas that it's, like, all over the place. I just feel like ACAB is becoming, it's not just the United States in this case. Well, I mean, we're in the 70s. Like, this kind of thing just seems to be pervasive, you know? like this kind of thing just seems to be pervasive you know um so these hostages at this point have no friends on their like nobody on their side they feel like clark is on their side but he's just manipulating them uh the police are endangering them and don't seem overly concerned about their

safety and now even their own parents are scolding them for talking back, basically. They're like, they're truly getting no help from anybody except the criminals. Except the criminals. And so this went on for days. It just kept going on, continually escalating. And at this point, police felt they had finally figured out Jan's true identity. Police felt they had finally figured out Jan's true identity. And they talked to Kai, who called to confirm his innocence and be like, you sent my little brother where?

Yeah. No. Oh, I mean, that's that's a lawsuit. Absolutely. Right. Like, I've had nothing to do with this. You sent my brother in there. Can you imagine if someone thought that, like, you were somewhere and then had Francisca go be like the hostage negotiator for you and you weren't even there? And it was like some other random criminal.

Oh my God. So he contacted Swedish authorities long distance from Honolulu to criticize them for, this is also a lawsuit by the way, for plastering his name and face all over the news saying he was the one holding up this bank when he wasn't even in the country he was in hawaii he was like i'm on vacation and you're just plastering my name all over town wow um and in a later interview he joked i'm perfectly capable of blackening my own reputation, which I really enjoyed. Honestly, that's a good zinger right there.

I agree. I agree. It's like a low blow that you think you have to tarnish my reputation on my behalf. It's like, oh, like what? Like it's hard? Like I need help, right? So inside, the hostages continued bonding with each other and their captives. And again, I think this is where it goes back to the elementages continued bonding with each other and their captives.

And again, I think this is where it goes back to the element of trauma bonding. That trauma bonding is probably a big part of this. In many ways, what happened inside would go on to be used against the hostages on the outside, of course, to pathologize them. For example, a tissue was discovered in the vault with semen on it and it turns out one of the women had said she'd kissed jan and had encouraged him to take care of himself in order to relieve his tension and she said she had done it in a way to ingratiate herself with this guy uh try and secure her safety the safety of others by kind of treating him in a romantic and sexual way an intimate way that she thought would you know bind them in in a in a stronger way bind them more intimately

yeah so in my mind i consider this a survival tactic and i think it's a brave one it takes mental fortitude it's something she probably would not have wanted to do but instead when this news came out people said she was a victim who had been assaulted and just couldn't admit it oh my god that's i was worried they were gonna twist that one that's a twist easy one to twist for sure and it of course it was monstrous for yon to sexually engage with a hostage like the power dynamic alone of course it's it's a heinous thing to do but it was also wrong for the public to dismiss almost infantilize her yeah saying also i mean she's literally if this is the victim of a

robbery like she's gonna tell you exactly what happens in hindsight like yeah she's not gonna lighten it and say like oh i wanted this or i did this or i was in control of the situation she's not gonna say that like unless it was true and like she's saying this was a strategy i tried and it worked yes and like i mean she really did she said, she's saying this was a strategy I tried and it worked. Yes. And like, I mean, she really did. She said, you know, this was, this was something she understood the situation she was in and she used whatever tactics she could to her advantage. And you know what?

Like it worked. And that's, I think people really like infantilized her and said like oh poor thing she didn't know what was going on and she got like roped into this and i think maybe that's where some of the criticism of stockholm syndrome comes in where it's sort of like oh they're just like brainwashed into this and um yep it's not necessarily brainwashing it's more a lot of times it can be a survival tactic like a something you you wouldn't understand unless you were in that scenario yourself i i can't imagine the layers there of like doing what you have to do to get out of a situation and then being brave enough later to tell your story and then people who weren't there like

that's not true and it's like are you fucking kidding me like oh poor thing she just doesn't want to admit it it's like oh it's so patronizing as someone who is team freeze and fight or flight like for her to have even been able to think up a strategy absolutely i can't even imagine having the grounding stability to do that. And they're still telling her, oh, you have no idea what happened when she was fully aware of the situation. Absolutely. The bravery and the risk to her safety, to everyone else's safety, the risk of that is so high. And I mean, it could have escalated.

It could have gotten worse. He could have reacted violently. He could have assaulted her. He could have it could have escalated it could have gotten worse he could have reacted violently he could have assaulted her he could have raped her like we don't you know if if those were the risks and thankfully you know that didn't happen as far as we know but like according to her she was trying to just you know develop intimacy with him in order to protect the lives of herself and the other people with her which is a quite a brave and uh impressive thing to do in my opinion so as the days went on clark was still acting optimistic and snarky but jan was just getting more frenetic, more nervous, more on edge. Sven, Kristen, Elizabeth, and Birgitta were emotionally and physically exhausted.

They wanted to be home with their families. They were missing family events and parties they'd look forward to. And meanwhile, they are still living in constant danger. So resentment toward police among the hostages at this point is just growing and growing. Meanwhile, psychologists were getting involved and they were reporting on the potential danger to the hostages' mental well-being for obvious reasons. So one forensic psychiatrist, Jose Gonzalez, who actually had once examined Clark in the the past he described clark as gifted and not at all dangerous to his hostages he trusted clark to act humanely and couldn't imagine any harm coming to the hostages under clark's charge even with the unknown wild card in the room and so that's just another example of how even the people hired to analyze clark were on

his side and respected him and thought he was just like a great dude you know man folk hero i just wow talk about us i mean i don't know how he does it i I don't either. Wow. The charisma. Jesus. It must be next level. Yeah. So no one in Sweden had ever killed a hostage before, and no one thought Jan and Clark wanted that in their reputation. But at the same time, the trauma of being trapped in such a high stakes situation for so many days was obviously bound to inflict long lasting trauma. Yeah. So mental health professionals said it was urgent for the hostage's well-being to resolve things as soon as possible.

So now psychologists are reporting back to police saying this needs to wind up or they are going to be irreparably damaged by this experience. Like we need to get them out of there. So in a final effort to end the unfolding drama police made a plan they were going to drill their way into the vault and release tear gas to incapacitate jan and clark and attempt to rescue the hostages so hang on so we're going to use a loud ass drill they will absolutely know what's coming then throw chemicals into the vault that will only knock out two of the six people there i imagine the goal was to knock all of them down

and then just drag out their bodies or arrest the ones that you know i don't totally know and guess what you don't totally know because that is the end of part one oh christine gotta cut it off i'm so sorry I don't totally know. And guess what? You don't totally know because that is the end of part one. Christine. Gotta cut it off. I'm so sorry. There's like five more pages. Talk about a plot twist.

Are you kidding me? I know. This is crazy, right? It's the grape escape, as we said earlier. It's the grape escape. We're gonna get him out of here. Oh my gosh. Wow.

I got nothing to say except wow about a million different times then the only thing i gotta say is it just gets crazier like you don't think it can and it just does i don't even know how that's possible i know me neither but it somehow somehow they make it work i can't wait to find out how this ends it's just like a shit show of epic proportions i didn't even know i had no it didn't even occur to me that stockholm syndrome would come with like an origin story yeah or from stockholm i just it just didn't even occur to me i was like oh this is just named after someone a person or yeah yeah wow but to have like such a bananas background story it's it's crazy it's you know what and i'm so glad that we actually do have a two-parter because i'm going to find because i

really enjoyed i mean this was like two years ago i watched this series or this it was just like a documentary like a one-hour thing about this case and i feel like i didn't do a good enough job looking for it so i'm gonna look for it and next episode, I'll have it ready for people want to watch it because I think they did a really good job. Gotcha. Okay. Yeah, no, definitely find it. Definitely. I am very excited. Wow. Wow. Great story so far, Christine. This was definitely a good one to start the year off. I thought maybe. Yeah. Thank you. I'm so glad you liked it it feels i mean again this is one of those stories where like very rarely do we get to have one of your stories never have like a wounded victim ever i mean they're still traumatized absolutely a whole

syndrome was named after them yeah but um but yeah it's nice that there have there are no murder victims so far which is of a rarity on this show. It's a rarity to get halfway through a story and have no murder victims yet. Oh, no. What do you mean yet? Well, I'm just saying I don't want to give everything away. Okay. Okay.

Okay. Okay. Well, thank you, everyone, for listening to our first episode of the year i don't know where we are in the in the timeline currently but uh i hope everyone's having a good year so far i hope everyone's feeling safe and warm and if you were trying to grow as a person i hope you feel some growth and i hope you uh liked our little stories you got a whole i don't know like 50 more this year was fun banshee was good um and if you are a member of patreon if you want to go and uh check out our after chat after this episode uh you can do that also reminder that we have um we're going back on tour next month and

if you have not gotten your tickets yet please go do that. We'll start mentioning that in the beginning of our episodes. Maybe. But if you want some tickets for our new show, you are welcome to do that on our website. Yay. Thanks for listening. And that's why we drink.