And That's Why We Drink - E311 Vaudeville Canes and Hand-Clap Games

Episode Date: January 22, 2023

Welcome to episode 311 where we're having a very Drew Barrymore moment and we're basking in it! We hope you enjoy our cool and crazed energy today as Em brings us tales of the Tower of London, a spooky call-back to 10 year-old Christine. Then current Christine covers the second part in her two part series on the case that originated Stockholm Syndrome. And are you telling us Lady Grey and Early Grey are married?? ...and that's why we drink!We're hitting the road again next month! Check out our full list of cities for our On the Rocks tour at andthatswhywedrink.com/live

bing bong oh christine what's what's going on my friend i just saw you and then we both hopped on zoom well i saw you in person and then we hopped on zoom we both said i miss you i'm like we just saw each other but i don't know i uh we saw each other not even 24 hours ago no now it's been now it's been over 48 i spent i think it was approximately 24 hours that i was on an airplane yesterday so yeah it would have been 48 since i saw you but um yeah we had good time we're listen we're prepping for the tour folks so get ready we're trying at least we're trying we're trying well Christine what do you drink and why oh thank you for asking I've been struggling because you and I've been chatting um for like

half an hour before we recorded and I really wanted to drink this beverage this liquid death water but um I wanted to crack it open so i want to hear the crack let's crack into it oh no i like i like you did okay um so that's what i'm drinking what are uh and i don't know well let me think while you tell me what you're drinking and why i will i will think about why i'm drinking okay i drinking water. I'm drinking a lot of water today. And I... That's it. Good story.

I'm drinking water and I'm eating a bunch of salt sticks because I'm feeling a little dizzy. I had never heard of salt sticks. And when you brought that up, I thought was like a horse eating like sugar cubes or like licking salt you know that's fair that's fair it's uh like it sounds like a horse it tastes like a vitamin c it's not a big deal but it's not like really salty it's not salty in a way where you're like oh this is disgusting but it's like tart it's like tart. It's like sour. Okay. Interesting. Interesting. It looks and tastes like a vitamin C. For those of you on audio, which is probably all of you, most of you, Em just went blah with their tongue, and I got to see the product inside the mouth.

It was beautiful. You probably heard the weird shifting in my mouth. It's so gross. Sorry, everybody. But no, it was just more and more health stuff these days and so now i'm having fainting spells and we're getting older and older and m's fainting and it's just like oh yeah just another thing to warn people about when we go on tour that if i faint on stage um well then i faint on stage i don't know what to tell you anymore. Then I do my, uh, vaudeville performance that I've been saving up in my back pocket.

While my dead weight body is limp in the on stage. Well, Eva has to get one of those big vaudeville canes and just drag you off stage while I perform. Just drag me away. Distract the audience. Yeah. Um, yeah, I mean, I don't, I drink today because, i mean i don't i drink today because um i don't know i mean nothing like i feel like i'm in a i feel like we're kind of in a transition phase here because

we're like gear it's january when we're recording this i don't know when this comes out but like we're kind of gearing up for a lot of stuff this year and i feel like we're kind of just in the waiting phase um but uh leona started walking on monday like quite a bit so she's just like hobbling around with her little she does like lobster claws with her hands while she walks yeah i don't know why but it's very funny um so you know is she running yet i feel like the second you walk you can run yeah absolutely and then she just like face plants and i'm like okay let's let's take a and blaze always says i wonder where she got her impatience from christine and i'm like i couldn't tell you i've never right i have no it's over my head i have no i just like it's it's just completely unclear to me where it

comes from um but yeah so i mean you know things are good what's her favorite place to walk to so far she just likes to walk back and forth to people because when when she gets to them we're like yay you know and she just loves accolades i also don't know where she gets that from it's the weirdest thing so crazy i can't figure out where she gets her like love of attention and her impatience it's it's a bunch of it's got to be blaze it's got to be blaze like if you know him you know i know it i know it i don't even you don't even have to know him yeah it's embarrassing honestly um but yeah no i'm excited because um we're gonna be rehearsing the show soon and so you're coming to visit me we're not gonna say what dates just in

case i don't know but it's we're coming to visit each other to practice again for the show and it is a little stressful but um just because we don't totally know what we're doing yet but um we will figure it out venues are sold out and we still don't i mean don't get us wrong we will have a show but it's like okay we're we have a lot of work to do so it's like when a venue sold out i'm like great let's make a show first right right right before we actually get there um but we're doing it we're in it's in the works it's uh the hard parts are done so um i think there's there's a few hard parts i know i know i keep just i like i don't believe it like i keep saying that to myself but i remember prepping for the last tour

and it was like so all-consuming that i'm like okay just tell yourself that the hard parts are over and maybe you'll believe it i think we need like a weekend like a crazed weekend where we just crack it out. Absolutely. We need one of those like 4 a.m. like mad scientist vibe, you know, evenings. We've had them before. We'll have them again. We've had plenty. And I wish I just had like a button I could press. But I guess that defeats the whole point of it.

But yeah. It's fine. We'll get there. We'll figure it out. we're just scared right now i am also i'm also scared about truly passing out on stage so that's going to be a new disclaimer at the beginning of each of the shows i think of like if i pass out you guys are you guys win a q and a with christine until i come to how fun would that be we okay well until that day um there'll probably be a lot of xanax in my system so i don't have to totally think about it um love can there be some in mind because um yeah why what the heck eva gross just signed in are we still recording yeah yeah we're recording okay

it just said you have been signed out end meeting i'm like no please oh it says recording on my end okay i just hit cancel but it says you're logged in from another device well okay it seems like we're still on okay okay well we'll see if eva starts zooming somebody then uh she pops on to say hi you know i don't think she can unless i let her in so we'll see if we'll see what mood i'm in if i want to allow her presence the power you have it went straight to my head um christine i oh man i had a good question for you and i've lost it we'll figure it out during the after chat i'm sure okay anyway uh okay so that's why you drink this is why i drink now oh you said you drink liquid death i'm drinking water we've got i think

we covered our bases okay what this is a very frenetic energy you've just shifted to i know something happened what's is it the salt stick are you too much salt sick i think my energy came back for a second i think that's what happened. Be careful. Don't hurt yourself. Well, no, I was going to wet another thing that's just flying into my head and I'm just going to regurgitate it before it leaves. Is that you're in the middle of doing a two-parter, right? Yes.

I'm so excited. I remembered, I think, last night when I was like, what would Christine cover today? And I went, wait a minute. I don't think she finished that Stockholm Syndrome situation. Yay! Okay, you remember. Wow, good memory. I barely remembered what I was going to cover today.

I often don't remember. And for some reason, it stuck with me. I'm so glad. Yeah, we did end on kind of a cliffhanger. You, my little storyteller. I love a cliffhanger so you my little storyteller this is a cliffhanger this is why i'm not worried about our tour because i've got you as the author what if it's just a bunch of cliffhangers and then we don't ever the cliffhanger is if one or both of us become unconscious on stage and we fade to

black and then they have to come back next year to get the other half of the show one of us fades to black and then oh the curtains fade to black yeah it's just like the whole show just kind of crumbles oh good times good times i can't wait oh well i officially have um i guess since us recording this is the first ghost story of the year because last year last week was the banshee um but this is a ghost i love ghost stories i don't know if you know that about me but oh my god we should have a podcast together we should be friends i went to a dinner last night and i had to explain my job to people which was just the worst and because then i it's like i just stumble through it you think after all these

years i'd have a clean cut answer it's so hard because it's so bizarre and there's so many pieces to it like like in like there have been times where i just like like it doesn't i know this isn't accurate folks but like i'll just say like comedian because like i like i don't know what else to say but i'm trying to think of something distinct and like sometimes i'm on a stage saying things to make people laugh jokes right and like sometimes i say jokes here i don't know i but like to say paranormal investigator or true crime podcaster it just it opens itself up to so many like questions and way too many questions and sometimes i don't have time to answer the questions it's a lot it's a And sometimes I don't have time to answer the questions. It's a lot. It's a lot. Yeah.

I don't have time to answer everything sometimes. And I was at this dinner and I was like, how do I keep this kind of like, you know, so I don't accidentally like steal some sort of light in the room. Like I want to hear about other people. And if I say like, oh, I go on tour and also I, you know, we ghost hunt and all this stuff. Like I was like, how do I? Yeah. I want to hear about all these other interesting people. I just talk about ghosts and crime.

Everyone's got a comment about ghosts. And it's even like some people who are skeptics and they're like, do you really believe in that? And so like I get the whole gamut. And sometimes I'm just too tired. I just don't want to talk about it. I just want to eat my sandwich. God. Just like I came here for dinner. I want other people about it. I just want to eat my sandwich. God. Just like, I came here for dinner.

I want other people to talk while I eat my dinner. So please. Anyway. Somebody else entertain me. But it was, I just had a moment last night where I was like, oh, how am I going to explain this? And anyway, I don't know how we even got here. I don't know. I'm telling you, your energy is in a cool place today.

I don't know about cool, but it was. Cool was the word that came to mind that seemed diplomatic um but yeah like maybe maybe totally crazed energy i don't know the right word but maybe do you watch z-way have you watched z-way or clips of i have no idea what that is okay you would love it but there's there's a segment that uh interviews Drew Barrymore. And Drew Barrymore just talks for like 10 fucking minutes. And like the tangents she goes on that she creates for herself are incredible. And she totally gets away from the question. She creates for herself.

I love that. And I feel like I'm having a bit of a Drew Barrymore moment. Oh, honestly, could be so much worse than a Drew Barrymore moment. I love that. Anyway, I'm sorry for my energy today it's it's all over the place i'm loving it i'm absorbing it i'm just uh basking in it i'm just worried for other people who are not basking they'll be fine okay back to the ghost story let's do that because i at least i have a list of things to say here super okay so this is uh the story of the tower of london i've been there have you what

was it like it was spooky well that makes sense because they're like hey i was like 10 and they're like hey this is where they executed people. I'm like, oh, cool. A lot of people. Actually, you know what's so weird? A bunch of different websites had different numbers where one of them said only two executions happened here. And I went, I beg to differ. False.

I'm no time traveler or historian, but I can pretty much guarantee more than two executions happened here. You sit on a throne of lies yeah and then other there were other um sources that said like hundreds of executions i was like that sounds more right i feel like all your stories have these wild number number ranges that's part of my problem with my side of the storytelling with yours you've got like cold hard facts it's usually pretty pretty down to the digit yeah yeah and if anyone's like oh well you know if someone ever said anything about my research it's like honestly at some point i just gotta pick a narrative folks like pick your source right exactly i'm like i can tell you that everything's wishy-washy about this but then i just repeat

myself oh it's like the time we went to texas and you talked about the alamo and everyone in the audience had a very differing opinion from one another. And people were starting to bicker with strangers in the audience. And I was like, OK, that's a very controversial topic you picked. I really should have not gone to San Antonio and done the Alamo. It was great because it was like clearly people were very invested, but like people were not having it with some of the facts. And then some people were having it with not the other. It was chaotic.

That was weird. I remember having to like reel in the audience, but like. Yeah. They were like heckling each other. They were bickering. I was like, excuse me. This is our show. I was like, I'm really hoping that this doesn't make you guys all hate me, but we got to keep it down.

Let me go. Yeah. Like you and I are the only ones allowed to bicker. Okay. I almost wanted to make people raise their hands and be like, who agrees with this bullet? I'm going to say. I feel like you may have done that. And I think.

Sounds right. Yeah. I feel like you may have done a little audience participation and they were more than ready for that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then I, anyway, that was, that was quite a day. little audience participation and they were more than ready for that yeah yeah yeah oh and then i

all this anyway that was that was quite a day uh that was also the day that uh avengers came out and i couldn't go because we had a show and that was miserable i've never lived it down i've never lived it down i think about every day okay my god the tower of london sorry i'm drew barry mooring everywhere well i feel like i'm just throwing shiny objects in front of you, which is not fair. I feel like I'm just pushing you in a direction and then letting you go, which is... I know that I'm kind of at fault here, so I apologize. It's okay. So let's start with William the Conqueror, who's, by the way, sometimes called William the Bastard. Love that. Whoa. He was the first Norman ruler in England. And after defeating the Anglo-Saxons and taking over England, he basically decides that he needs to

build a massive tower fortress to protect himself because he probably just pissed everybody off. Right. And in the 1070s, he, which what a year. Oh my goodness. i know just as a silly american that means nothing to me in the 1070s he builds the tower of london and he even used stones from normandy i guess as an homage to himself and the tower took 20 years to build which i feel like if you need protection immediately yeah bad call like a quarter of your entire lifespan is is taking it a little far yeah like at this point you've already found a different place to stay safe while you're waiting for that place to be built so just stay there i guess once you start it's like well i might as well wait this project out yeah it's like i already spent the money um so over time like at that point

he might be fine with england and no one wants to hurt him he's like oh well now this freaking tower what do i do i guess i should execute hundreds of people or two depending on or two who retells the story later so over time uh future kings and queens also add more things to the tower including new walls defensive curtains moats and basically anything to further fortify the structure nowadays the fortress is made up of 21 towers because 20 wasn't enough and it is this lavish castle and was lived in for centuries um it was also used as a mint which is interesting um for coins it was it minted all the currency in the nation

oh my gosh and it also was a uh armory weapon storage space um it also was a space to protect all of the royal valuables which um speaking of royal valuables have you been keeping up with this prince harry nonsense not even a little even. I'm like the least royal, royal interested person that exists, I think. My friend, his book is crazy. Well, I just, I saw it on Goodreads and I just clicked in to see what the consensus was. And then I quickly clicked out

because I was overwhelmed, so. So in one of the chapters, he talks about how his penis got frostbite. Oh my God. And then he had to apply medicine that smelled like his mom's lipstick on his penis. It's really crazy. What the F? Okay, maybe I'm slightly more interested now.

But I'm still not invested enough. But I like to hear you tell me about it. Let's put it that way. The way he was able to insert narratives about his penis a few times was very silly. He calls it his todger, by the way. I don't. Okay. There you go.

Anyway, so speaking of like the crown jewels, you know what I'm saying? Speaking of his tower of London. His todger of London. Royal subjects. And so anyway, this fortress was known to protect royal valuables, which is exactly the sentence you could say about his underwear. So nowadays, oh, the fortress has 21 towers and many people died there for many reasons. Some of them were just natural causes, but there's also some violent reasons. And the tower still has a reputation for being reasons. Some of them were just natural causes, but there's also some violent reasons, and the tower still has a reputation for being violent. So in the 11th century, the very first

prisoner was incarcerated here. 11th century, that's... I don't even want to do the math. Ten hundreds. Okay. Yikes. Thank you for that. So a thousand? Is that what that is? Yeah. Between a thousand and eleven hundred. Okay. Yikes. Thank you for that. So a thousand, is that what that is? Yeah. Between a thousand and 1100 BC. Okay. BC, not BC. I'm sorry. AD. My mistake. This is a real nightmare for any historian. They've turned it off. Any historian, for any normal person, this is a nightmare. They're like, how do you not know?

Okay. 11th century. This was the first prisoner was incarcerated. And do you know when the last prisoner was executed here? No. Started all the way back in the 11th century and now. 1705. In the 1940s. Really?

The last person was executed for treason because he was spying for Germany in World War II. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my goodness. So lots of death. So during its time, the tower held hundreds of prisoners. Some of them were Catherine Howard, Anne Boleyn, and Lady Jane Grey. All of them were executed here on the Green. and Lady Jane Grey.

All of them were executed here on the green. And Lady Jane Grey, who's also known as the Nine Day Queen, she was crowned as a teenager. There's the really famous portrait of like... Right. I think it was her execution was the painting. She was crowned as a teenager, but she was quickly denounced for Mary Tudor,

a.k.a. Bloody Mary in episode 90, folks, if you want to go listen to that. she was crowned as a teenager but she was quickly denounced for mary tudor aka uh bloody mary and episode 90 folks if you want to go listen to that um but she wasn't catholic and he and she or lady jane gray wasn't catholic and mary tudor was and so people picked her over lady jane gray even though she was the rightful heir um and even her own father denounced her to save himself oh geez so she gave up the crown to mary she did it like willingly like okay you can be queen but then she charged lady jane gray anyway with high treason and sentenced jane and her husband to death oh my god which i mean her name is bloody mary you know like this can't be the it's probably the nicest thing she's ever done yeah uh in nine or in 15 not 19 anything in 1554 um jane who was 16 her she first saw her husband get beheaded and then she was also beheaded and it's

she's now considered one of england's most cited ghosts wow um fun fact lady jane gray is not the namesake of lady gray tea i don't know if you knew that there was a lady gray tea did you i do yeah okay good because it's not but it's not her not lady jane gray i think i thought it was it was uh named after lady Mary Grey. And she is married to Earl Grey. Sure. Right. Well, that I knew because I'm like, well, Earl Grey. Well, Earl Grey, Lady Grey. Like, I was like, well, I assume they're married.

Oh, I never. I literally never put the two things together my entire life. I was blown away. So his name is Earl Charles Grey. Okay. And I was like, are you telling me Lady Gray and Earl Gray are married? Yeah. It blew my stupid mind.

I had Earl Gray last night. I know. It's like your favorite. I'm surprised. Oh, my God. It took me. Anyway, if anyone else is as slow to the update as me, that's me. All right. slow to the update as me it's that's me all right so her uh lady jane gray her husband was named

lord guildford dudley of course wow what a name i want that to be my new favorite tea that tea would have some psychedelics in it or something i don't know that's a magic mushroom tea that's yeah lord guildford dudley that's actually it probably have like i don't know fucking gold leaf or something something crazy um his so he was the one who was beheaded before his wife was then beheaded and now he is seen as a ghost sitting in his cell and weeping which is very sad especially because he was just i don't know the whole story but it sounds like he was just married to her wrong place wrong time yeah yeah and like because mary didn't like her her and people she loved had to die that's how it sounds

with no information in front of me absolutely agree um so lord dudley is also said to be responsible for the word jane etched into one of the walls on the grounds. Okay, that's sad. That really fucks me up. She is sometimes called the white lady because, of course, there had to be a white lady. Always a lady in white. And Jane is said to be seen in white wandering, sadly. She doesn't speak and she's often seen by the guards the staff and visitors

oh my goodness spooky on christmas eve's she's said to leave the grounds on christmas eve she leaves the ground and she can be seen wandering the ruins of her childhood home which is at bradgate park oh i just got goose camp from that. I wonder why Christmas Eve. Also, on New Year's Eve, she is seen again near her childhood home, but in a coach, like a ghostly coach. And she's being pulled by ghostly horses, and they're heading towards church, and then the whole thing vanishes. That would be so cool to see. Well, apparently it's like fucking clockwork, and you can just go on New Year's Eve and like witness this, which I can't believe that's true because why wouldn't just every

ghost hunter in the world just go spend New Year's Eve there and just have the answer that goes to real? Well, it's probably not every person and every New Year's Eve, right? It just like happens on occasion. I don't know. One source says, and I i quote it said she's visited her childhood home every christmas eve since her death almost 500 years ago well maybe not everyone can see her there okay yeah there's got to be a reason right she's just she's just being a little

sneaky she's just saying i don't like you and you can just kind of hear her nearby i don't know but anyway in 1536 which we are very slowly time traveling back to the present um anne boleyn uh second wife to henry the eighth was imprisoned and executed for her adultery um and she's buried in the town in the towers of london's parish church um in the 1870s the chapel was locked for the night but the captain of the guard saw a light through the window and when he looked inside he actually saw like this is like a wild haunting to experience he saw anne boleyn's entire procession with knights and anne's ladies in waiting all praying and walking the chapel and he even saw anne boleyn herself but she did not have a head i was gonna ask oh my gosh spooky which like it's one thing to see first of all a celebrity ghost let's get let's start there

big big then you see the entire funeral procession. And she doesn't have a head. First of all, then how do you know that it was Anne Boleyn? A million people got beheaded. Just wondering that too. But maybe it was like her frock was extra fancy. Yeah. Maybe it was.

I don't know. Also, she didn't have a head, which I think is a pretty good clue. Okay, that's true. But so many people on the grounds lost their head. That's true. Maybe one of them was crashing her procession. Maybe you just saw a pretty good clue. Okay, that's true. But so many people on the grounds lost their head. That's true. Maybe one of them was crashing her procession. Maybe you just saw a random procession. It was very fancy, you know?

For a headless person. Right. I'm not trying to gaslight this guy from the 1870s. Yeah, and I feel like you are, though. Like, I want more proof that it's Anne Boleyn. Did the dress of the body without a head say, this is Anne Boleyn? No, but it's probably like a royal gown.

Yeah, that's fair. It's definitely someone fancy. That I know. I just, I wasn't there, you know, if I could go back a couple centuries. I know. I would know better than anyone, you know. You would be able to look at a headless person and say, I know which royal that one is. I know it.

I know it. It smells like my mother's lipstick that must be hairy that's so it was just like the sickest line i've ever seen in my life in a book and the fact that it was like the duke of sussex you didn't read the book though my tiktok is covered with the audio book i feel like i i feel like i've read it at this point okay so in 1864 um there was another guard who actually saw Anne's ghost wandering the courtyard. I guess she had her head here. Interesting that she picks and chooses who gets to see her head.

She was dressed in white. So maybe she's a whole other lady in white. Interesting. Okay. She did not respond to him confronting her. Maybe he thought that she was just a random woman and he was like you got to get the fuck out of here yeah and she was not saying anything to him so he wanted to intimidate her gross um and he charged at her with his bayonet okay idiot what

are you gonna do like stab this random lady what a call like you could have just been louder or called for backup to like walk with you just not bayoneted her anything really anything else is fine anyway he charged at her with the bayonet and he basically runs straight through her which like that means he committed to stabbing that's what i'm saying like he was literally like hmm she's not responding i'll intimidate her by stabbing her through the stomach what it would have i mean this is still i don't agree with this but it would have been one thing if he pulled out the bayonet to seem threatening with no intention to stab a random woman just because she's not talking to you but let's just put it this way if the banshee were nearby that guy would be so fucked oh screwed big time so uh here's the thing i guess

then uh when he ran through her and realized it was a ghost he freaked out and his superiors almost charged him with fainting and abandoning his post but somebody nearby a general had witnessed the entire thing and testified that there really was a ghost and wow so somehow somehow he got off scot-free you faint on stage i'm gonna charge you with fainting during your royal duties or whatever with abandoning my post i mean yeah i technically would be um so i would understand i would understand i won't bayonet you though so i can promise that thank you i would like everyone in that audience to testify that they saw the whole thing. And I really just had a fainting spell. I was just very dizzy. So here's the thing, though,

is we never got confirmation that this was Anne Boleyn. This was just a woman in white. So this could be the lady in white that I already discussed. Yeah. Or it could be Anne apparently dressed in white. It could be Lady Jane in white. It could be any random ghost woman in white. But we're pretending that it is Anne Boleyn confidently. Mm-hmm. Okay. Anne is also seen pacing the chapel aisle and walking toward the altar that stands over her grave.

Oh, my. She's obsessed with this funeral. I, yeah, thank you. You know what? She deserves it though. I feel like- Agreed, I'm not dissing her for that because like I would be too.

I would want to watch my own funeral. It was a big event of her own life that she didn't get to attend living, you know? Right, might as well. I'm already so pissed that I have to miss my own funeral. I know, it's the thing I'm saying. Like, you want to know what people are eulogizing, you know? Mm-hmm.

What if I don't want them to say something that they're saying up there? What if I want to kick them in the shins and be like, stop it? Yep. You know? Then you can do it ghostly. I would love to look at people in my life, and if they're not crying that I'm dead, just remember that. And just put it in my little ghostly pocket and be like, you what noted put it in my ghostly pocket yeah you know uh all right so here's a fun fact that will quickly become a terrible fact cool there are ghosts that are

not human uh in this tower They are the ghosts of animals. Oh, fuck. In the 1500s, there was something of a sport No. called bear baiting. And it involved

chaining a bear and taunting it until it fought back. And sometimes the bear was forced to fight other animals. Oh, my god. Eventually, it seemed to end the same way every time

where a man just killed the bear. This is horrible. What is wrong with people? Not just animal cruelty, but some sort of animal torture of like, oh, the second you're chained up, we're already going to kill you at the end, but just for fun, let's... Like it's like a sport now.

Yeah. Humans are sick. So there are two ghosts of bears that are still on the grounds. That's so sad. Which they have every fucking right to charge people for eternity. One shows itself in the jewel room behind a door, which is interesting why it hangs out behind the door of a room um some say that it is guarding the castle but that makes no fucking sense because why would you guard a place that's terrible yeah um or like the why would i guard the place that tortured me

to death and killed me you know so that makes no sense to me. The second one, the second ghost is of a black bear that pops up wherever it pleases. And I like that style. That's a good vibe. Yeah. He's like, wherever I feel needed, wherever I am called, I will be there. I like that. It's wherever I'm not welcome. That's where I'm going to show up because, you know, that attitude is what I'm about

with this bear. He was first seen in 1816 in the Martin Tower. And I really just hope that he's living his best bear life. I hope that there's a patch on the grounds that has just like a well of honey. And I hope he has little berries to pick. And I hope he's got a lot of people to scare because he deserves it.

Absolutely. The best bear, not the best bear life but his best bear afterlife i hope he's having his best bear afterlife um so there's a story that goes that the guard was charged a guard was charged by a grizzly bear which can you imagine i mean that really is such a scary sight like all of a sudden a bear just shows up and is choosing a ghostly one a ghostly one i wonder if he knew it was ghostly you were still talking about when they were torturing them you're saying like this happened this is a ghost story of the bear got it got it got it got it his guard says he was charged by a grizzly bear and he tried to he tried to fight

it off with a sword but the sword went right through the bear and the guard was found frantic and he even had to be picked up and brought home because he was so catatonic traumatizing yeah especially like if this guard had nothing to do with what happened to those bears yeah true true he's like why the fuck like wait a bear do it i would i mean i can't even imagine i would never recover and apparently he died two days later oh no i don't know if he died from actual injuries or maybe from like the shock of a spirit spiritual panic i don't know if he died from actual injuries or maybe from the shock, the spiritual panic. I don't know. I also am going to die of spiritual panic.

Me too. Yeah. Many other animals are also seen as ghosts on the property. Well, also a lot of animals were held on the property when they were alive, including monkeys tigers dogs horses uh there were lions leopards pumas tigers jackals an elephant a polar bear that's awful well because this is because the kings kept a menagerie in the tower which was just the old timey way of saying a zoo. But like not even a zoo, just like a collection of animals that are being mistreated. And yes, a polar bear that's in not in an Arctic temperature. A polar bear in London.

Yeah. Next to an elephant who should also not be totally in London. So I feel like this is the next children's book. Like forget Paddington. A polar bear in London. I feel like that is the next children's book. Like, forget Paddington. A polar bear in London. I feel like that's the next story. So anyway, they used to have a bunch of animals on the property. And a lot of their ghosts are now seen here, although they are often harmless.

Going back to humans, there is one woman named Lady Arbella Stewart. She is the niece of Mary, Queen of Scots. she is the niece of mary queen of scots she was imprisoned here for a long time for having a secret marriage that the king felt threatened by and for all we know there was absolutely zero threat and the king just had a crush on her or something i don't it could have been anything but it sounds like he just didn't like that she got married um and so he imprisoned her and she attempted several escapes um she was caught every single time so poor girl she kept trying though and she was then put in the queen's house which is a part of a tower where she was taken care of i guess because she was related to mary queen of scotts it wasn't like

maybe the worst imprisonment situation i don't know but she was given her own room um she died anyway though because she allegedly stopped eating in protest oh no and died of starvation oh no there's another rumor that that was a cover-up story and she was actually murdered so but it was her fault sure yeah uh-huh now our bella haunts the queen's house where she was staying and she apparently hates women um that go into her bedroom i wonder if she hates them or she's warning them but um i mean i would hate anyone going to my bedroom i'd be like get out that's true but maybe if it was like if she was wrongfully imprisoned for just like being a woman that he liked or had an issue with i don't know i i don't know the full story but all we do

know is that whenever a woman goes in there alone well i'm not gonna test it so there's some spooky stuff that goes on to a point where they have had to make a rule that says no women are allowed in this room by themselves so i like you can go in with a with a chaperone though right right right maybe buddy system sometimes our bella's ghost is actually called the gray lady instead of the white lady um and that's really the only difference but one's white and one's gray um so there was a former resident governor of the tower uh and this is a quote from them when they stayed there soon after we arrived in 1994 my wife janice was making up the bed in the lennox room when she felt a violent push in her back which propelled her right out of the room oh shit

no so she must hate women okay got it or she's protecting them very aggressively getting propelled out of a room with the force of a push. And to finish the quote, no one had warned us that the house was haunted, but then we discovered that every resident has experienced something strange in that room. The story goes that the ghost is that of Arbella Stewart, a cousin of James I, who was imprisoned and then possibly murdered in that room. James I, who was imprisoned and then possibly murdered in that room. Several women who slept there have since been reporting waking in terror in the middle of the night, feeling that they were being strangled. So just in case, we made it a house rule not to give unaccompanied women guests the Lennox room. Okay, so she hates women.

Oh my gosh. Okay, wow. Yeah, it sounds like she does not like women. Okay. There's another story here, another ghost story. Not about our bella but of the lost princes which i hadn't heard this before and it just goes to show how far behind i am in royal family drama but in 1483 uh king edward the fourth died and his brother took in his two sons um who one was 12 year old Edward V, who was going to be the future heir, and nine year old Richard. The uncle immediately moved the boys to the Tower of London and allegedly for their protection.

That's why he brought them to the tower. But the princes were never seen again after moving in. Oh, no. tower but the princes were never seen again after moving in oh no a diplomat living uh there at the time he said that he used to see the boys around the tower at first but soon they quote began to be seen more rarely behind the bars and windows until at length they ceased to appear altogether already there is suspicion they have been done away with oh that's terrible and everyone suspected their uncle who became king richard iii of course of killing them so that he could then have the throne it's terrible uh but then again he was the king and no one can accuse him of something without

consequences um so everyone just i guess let it fly and 200 years later um a 17th century construction crew found a chest that was 10 feet under a tower foundation oh no with the skeletons of two boys no that's terrible these bones were given a royal funeral at westminster abbey and in 1933 early forensic experts said that the bones matched the ages of the princes but there are historians that still argue that this maybe isn't the two boys in which case that means there's four children that are missing i don't love that yeah i don't like that any better right so anyway now i don't love that. Yeah, I don't like that any better. Right. So anyway, now I don't know if it's because their bones were dug up and properly buried or if this was happening beforehand. I don't know the beginning of seeing these apparitions, but people claim to see two boys in the tower they were staying in wearing night shirts, looking scared and holding hands. Oh, come on.

Other times, though, they have been seen looking happy, giggling, running around, and playing together. Okay, okay, that's good. So their personality changes with the day. Same. Right, yeah. Can't relate. So that's the ghosts of them. In the same tower, there's also the ghost of Sir Walter Raleigh, who was imprisoned on the grounds multiple times.

He originally stayed there for over 13 years, and he's now seen wandering the tower with the princes. So there's quite a few ghosts in that area. That's the White Tower. Then there's the most gruesome execution that ever happened on the grounds of the of the tower which is in 1538 and it was margaret pole the countess of salisbury who i wonder if she is in charge of salisbury steak um potentially a food by the way i have not heard about since we were children do people that make that anymore i don't know i don't know if i ever knew what it was you know how like people you see like olive loaf and you like just never hear about it anymore jelloed foods yeah like like what happened to salisbury

steak i feel like that's a very 80s thing really i ate it all the time what is it i don't even know what it is i don't let's look at it sorry tangent ew combined ground beef breadcrumbs ketchup dry mustard worcestershire sauce bouillon and some salt and pepper okay it was like it was like a go-to meal it was like a go-to meal in my cafeteria but i think i feel like it was cafeteria food for a lot of people no cafeteria food I thought you meant at home no it was like like it was like school lunch food whoa no we never had that oh wild I ate it all the damn time okay hang on looks like a meatloaf kind of which looks like a meatloaf maybe they made meatloaf and called it Salisbury steak to sound fancier maybe oh what happened to salisbury steak okay although frozen foods are oh were they it was a frozen maybe that's why it was also lunch food they just threw it in the microwave for us yeah although frozen foods are still popular today

the portioned out tv dinners of yesterday okay that doesn't give me what i want since salisbury steak had become synonymous with frozen meals its traction has began to decline oh so it was like a very like quick and ready type of food yeah okay i mean people also always say meatloaf is a school cafeteria food and they're very similar so sorry hang on um there's an article dr james salbury, a germ theory pioneer, invented Salisbury steak to combat illness against Civil War troops. What? I am going to read this article later. There's an article that's called The Interesting History Behind Satisfying Salisbury Steak, A Close Cousin to the Hamburger. Okay.

Well, I can't wait to read that later. I can't wait for you to read that later and then tell us all about it next week. And that's why we drink. I have wondered if I were to ever start a podcast on my own, I think it would just be ADHD tangents where like every episode I would just cover a different random topic I hyper fixated on that week. I love that though. This time it's salisbury steak next time it's i don't know crocheting i don't know jigsaw puzzles okay we're dehydrated are you dehydrated christine always okay well drink up girl okay where were we oh salisbury okay oh it was the most gruesome execution on

on the grounds so uh that was 1538 margaret pole countess of salisbury um she was executed imprisoned and executed truly for being the mother of someone who committed treason oh come on i can't even imagine people just love killing women anyone anyone yeah anyone yeah bears so uh margaret was described as old and frail and she was 65 um and she was imprisoned at 67 so i think that she was described that way to make it seem like this imprisonment was particularly cruel um not we're totally ignoring that like she didn't do anything wrong but her age is what really made everyone feel bad um and she was given the quote honor of a private execution oh come on come on. Because she's old. So there's two versions to this story. The first one is that when Margaret saw the axe coming down on her, she panicked and ran, and the executioner chased her around.

And slashed at her 11 times with his sword before she died. Oh, no. with his sword before she died. Oh, no. There's a second version, which is no better, which is that the executioner was inexperienced. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Swung and

missed her neck. Oh, my God. Nearly cutting off her arm. Oh, my God. And kept trying, but like ten times in a row would swing and miss the neck and hit a different part of her. I'm going to freak out. That's horrible.

Until she eventually died. It's horrible. So I don't know which one's better. They're both awful. And keep in mind, she did nothing wrong. And she was 67 years old. Jesus Christ. People now hear her screaming on the tower of green.

Of course. Others have seen an apparition of her running away from an axe man. That's horrible. Other ghosts in some parts of this castle, for one, people hear footsteps in the halls, which were, I guess, at one

point, monks in their sandals on the stone floors. And in 1957, in the salt tower, one man saw a cloud of mist with the face of a young woman in it which spooky creepy um like a cloud inside and it's got a face absolutely not a cloud inside i was like this something's very wrong here that alone would have gotten me but the fact that it's also like anthropomorphized into a human is really freaking me out in the same tower there is the ghost of a jesuit preach named henry walpole who was you at preach priest priest did i say it stupidly so you said preach

i don't know oh shit well it sounded like you were like saying hey preach you know oh like i was trying to be cool i wasn't it didn't work uh there's a priest named henry walpole who was tortured for uh for naming other catholic contacts that he knew um and he wouldn't give them up and i guess he died and now people see a yellow glowing thing that gets brighter and brighter until it fills the room. So some golden light. They also hear murmuring like someone praying and they feel ice cold fingers on their neck. Oh, OK. The rest of it's OK, but.

Last one got me. That's not good. Henry VI was also was stabbed while praying in wakefield tower uh and that's where his ghost is now allegedly seen uh at midnight every night and he'll show up at the stroke of midnight like cinderella or something and in the 1980s there's another ghost story of a guy seeing two men dressed in early time period clothing. They're standing next to each other at the fireplace, talking to each other in smoking pipes. Oh, that's kind of cool.

That one's cool. And one of them suddenly turned around to look at him, stared back at him, and then both of the guys by the fireplace vanished. Oh, I like that they're just smoking their pipes. Yeah, they they were like this guy's fucking listening and let's get out of here can't we have a lick of privacy around i know um in the white tower there is the white lady um she's but here's the thing because we mentioned earlier earlier that Lady Jane Grey was the lady in white. I keep throwing myself off because I think that Lady Jane Grey should be the grey lady. Yeah, because it is confusing. There's a grey lady and they're all white ladies. Right. They're all white ladies.

Some are dressed in white, even though their last name is gray and some of them are dressed in gray even though they're it's so beyond um so confusing but then on top of that there's allegedly another lady in white um uh and she is known to fill the room with very strong perfume that people have described as cheap perfume oh that's rude that's so fucking rude that's rude um can you imagine also like that you decided when you became a ghost you're like this is gonna be i'm locking it in this is the smell and now everyone's like that's fucking foul and now you can't change it you're like oh no sad um apparently the smell is so overwhelming that people get sick enough to leave the room so she literally like not only is she being called cheap and tacky but like she's clearing out house

like uh wow that's powerful though she's probably having a spongebob i'm ugly and i'm proud moment of like like why won't you hang out with me i'm just gonna lean into it now she's also been seen standing at windows and waving to children probably because she knows if she gets any closer they will tell her she stinks um when uh there have been a few times where once you smell her perfume she will also tap you on your shoulder but uh when you look behind you to see what's going on you will only see a flash of white and then nothing when this has happened to people they feel that the world is quote closing in on them and their blood runs cold never mind i don't enjoy that yeah all of a sudden it's always got to be scary i'm like why couldn't this just why couldn't

we just enjoy what was happening i want to see the guys in the pot with the pipes that's about as far as i want yeah and i bet they have cologne that smells awesome by the way oh i bet well maybe i don't know what their showering habits were back then that's true that's true i wonder if everyone stinks does nobody stink you know like can you ever really pinpoint it must have been that way because you must have just been used to it you know part of me is like you would in a time when like cleaning habits were very different and everyone has like a funk to them yeah if someone can still pick out your bo that's how you knew that you smelled yeah if there's just like a general gross smell but you can't really like no one's picking you from the pile then you're like in the clear

yeah i wonder like if like when somebody else like just stretches and their armpits are exposed and everyone's like oh dear god you know like is is that how you know you're the stinky one that you need to take a like at least one more bath a month yeah just one but also like your bo has to be incredible because weren't their clothes like really thick and like wool and shit sometimes like yeah you think you'd be able to contain most of it maybe they did i also wonder like you know if you don't wash your hair eventually it kind of like just figures itself out is that how a body works if you don't wash it long enough does it just kind of stop smelling that's what uh i had to do to start on like the native deodorant is like I had to stop using like chemical deodorant

and it took like two weeks to really like stick and now and now it works I mean as far as I know it works fine um but it like your body needs to like adjust so I think it does like if you're not putting like chemical deodorant on i think after a while it like just kind of resets oh interesting like blaze doesn't even wear deodorant because he doesn't blaze is a freak of nature so please relax on that okay like i have yet to hear a bad thing about blaze and i've known you for how many years now i put on deodorant like three times a day i mean this is before like i do really like i use native now i know this is not an ad i'm just genuinely saying but back before when i would like play volleyball and stuff in high school and like i would need to put on like clinical strength

deodorant like multiple times a day i was i mean blaze and he's like uh i have a stick of deodorant but i had it for i've had it for three years because i only rarely use it like what the fuck he's really just like a force like i don't get it if i don't wear deodorant it's game over for every single person near me like you same you know when i'm not wearing deodorant that's let's just put it that way that's why our native ads are so intense no really it works no i um i thank god for deodorant because i'd be like i'm so sweaty my eyes are so sweaty like exiled from a town if we didn't have deodorant imprisoned in the tower of london probably you know what's interesting though is a lot of people have commented and said that i smell really good so i like that's just the deodorant working. Maybe that's your funk. Maybe. Maybe I'm just maybe I'm just convincing everyone. No, I think you smell nice. I have I've

never known you to have any sort of smell to you. I think I smell fine, too. But I know what I smell like when I'm not smelling fine. That's pretty wild. Um, where did how did we get here okay i don't know anymore so back to this i only have a few uh things left but um in the white tower which i think is the same tower as the princes and sir walter raleigh um you can also hear the tortured screams of guy fox who was he was prepared here for his execution which i have i have no idea what prepared means like i don't want to know what you like clean the neck like you sharpen and blade i don't know um also here there's a ghost uh that has been heard and one time a guard was hanging out there and he took off one of his shoes he like had to like i don't know maybe he had something to show yeah but all of a sudden he heard behind him a voice say there's only you

and i here and he responded back just let me get this shoe on and there'll only be you because i'll be running out the freaking he was like give me about a 60 second countdown and that we won't have this problem anymore i'd be like i'm out of there i don't need my shoe you can have it yeah take it in the 1800s uh the keeper of the crown jewels lived in martin tower with his family um and his family actually saw a ghost and this is a whole quote from him where he said that his wife said good god what is that then the keeper this is his um i don't know series of events i looked up and saw a cylindrical figure like a glass tube seemingly about the thick the thickness of my arm hovering between the ceiling and the table its contents appeared to be a dense fluid white and pale azure like the gathering of a summer cloud okay and and incessantly rolling and mingling within the cylinder this lasted about two minutes then it began to slowly move before my sister-in-law

then following the oblong shape of the table before my son and myself passing behind my wife it paused for a moment over the over her right shoulder instantly she crouched down and with both hands covering her shoulder she shrieked out oh christ it has seized me even now while writing i feel the fresh horror of that movement whoa and eventually the spirit let go of his wife and vanished but nobody ever saw it again nobody knows what it was nothing ew that creeps me out that that's like too specific like that's the kind of thing where like a summer's cloud but i'm like i don't think you would make that up like you could exaggerate like oh i heard the ghostly voice and i stabbed it with a spear but like an ob like a cylindrical shape that hovers above your shoulder it's just so

bizarrely detailed you know it's so weird because it's so different than any other ghostly thing i hear about i don't know if that makes it more or less credible like i'm like it makes it more to me because i'm like what a weird thing to make up like yeah that's why would you make that up i mean I'm like, what a weird thing to make up. Yeah, that's true. Why would you make that up? I mean, I'm sure someone would, but if all these multiple people were like, no, this strange cylindrical object was hovering above us. It's odd.

It's very odd. It's a weird story to make up. Wouldn't you make up a story about like, oh, and then this soldier appeared and like, I don't know. You could say you saw Lady Gray or you could make up a bear. I don't know, but a cylinder saw lady gray or you could make up any a bear i don't know but a cylinder yeah it's very weird i think it is i have no idea and the fact that it's like passing through everybody and like and it can grab you i wonder i mean my i have no reason to think this but the only thing i can come up with or like on first thought is like maybe it's like one of their family members who was passing and like came

to say goodbye to everybody or something because it was like. And they're like, oh, God, it has seized me. But honestly, if you died and all of a sudden showed up in front of me, my first reaction to it would be, ah, you know, so like, oh, good God, what is that? You try to give me one last hug. Oh, God, it seized me. You know. So like, oh, good God, what is that? Are you trying to give me one last hug? Oh, God, it seized me. Okay.

To be fair, I would be wearing the tackiest perfume of all time. So that would probably seize you before anything else. No, but I just wonder, I guess, but like, why would it be in a cylinder and why would it be so scary? I don't know. Whatever. I don't know. It almost sounds like it's like it almost sounds like something a spiritualist or like a like a table tilt, like table tilting, table turning. Why can't I think of what I'm talking about?

It feels like something from like the spiritualist era of like something you'd see at a seance and you find out later it was fake i don't know but um okay last thing is that there is a spirit here called the oppressive force or nameless thing that sounds like what that fucking cylinder is well this one is malevolent and stalks guards at night and something it's attached to henry the eighth's armor because it appears in the room that the armor is displayed in and if the armor is ever moved then the energy will follow the armor oh no and uh some people that experience the spirit say that they feel like they're being crushed alive by something or arms are being wrapped very tightly around them until they can't breathe one guard was attacked by the spirit and he actually even saw even though this

thing was invisible he somehow in the corner of his eye saw a cloak and the cloak wrapped around his neck and he escaped the room but there was red bruising on his neck where the cloak was and many have had to flee the room when they experience this feeling some even think that they see a demon-like figure on the ceiling when this is happening um and anyone can go visit the armor if you'd like but just know that you might get choked out so don't dress like a guard don't dress like a guard yeah definitely um anyway that is the tower of lond Wow. And that's just some of the ghosts. I mean, there's got to be hundreds. There's got to be more. What a tale. Did you like my glug glug of my water?

No, not really. Hydration reminder to anybody who has a water bottle and you've been neglecting it. Take a swig, folks. Okay. All right. One second. Take a swig. For your water.

What's the word? I don't know. All right. We'll do it at the same time. I'll do a little gluggy. Ah, good job, everybody. I'm very proud of you. Hydrate.

If you're drinking a glass of wine, that counts, too. Yes. Just drink something. That's all that matters. Yeah, that's all that matters, right, doctors? Yeah, you get it. Okay. All right.

Okay, we're going to talk about Stockholm Syndrome, the rest of the story, part two. I don't want to say what do you remember. That's a very open-ended question. But do you, how much of a... I don't remember names. Okay. question but do you how much of a i don't remember names okay but i i do remember that there was originally there was one guy who goes into the bank he says i need an exorbitant amount of money and my friend freed which by the way i don't know maybe i'm just hoping for things but it just feels i feel like there's some something queer going on i feel like there's i don't think so, I feel like there's something queer going on.

I feel like there's... I don't think so. No? I feel like they're just very, very good friends, and he was willing to go rob a bank to let him out. The second guy was just like a folk hero, so people were just like obsessed with him. He was like a celebrity, remember? I know.

Yeah. I mean, maybe this guy had a crush on him because he was known to be quite handsome, but I don't think they got together or anything. Damn. I just want everything to be a little gay all the time. Me too. Trust me.

And if it were, you know I would be aggressively highlighting that aspect of it. But unfortunately, there's also some other sexual stuff that happens. Oh, shit. Not between them. So I have a feeling. Okay. It was not mutual. Even if there was some queerness happening, it wasn't mutual.

Damn. Okay. I was just manifesting. But okay. So he says, I need this guy out. They bring the guy to him, which is like the cops. Just like let him in the bank. Just let him in.

Now the two of them are in there with, I think, four women. And then they find this one guy later. He's hiding. He's hiding. And they're all like, we don't want to hurt any of you. We just like, we want to. They basically were like feeding them or something at some point and slowly earning their trust. And not even like, I don't think strategically earning their trust.

They just happened to be gaining their trust because the police kept making so many mistakes. Bunkling it. And like did not know how to handle a hostage situation and they were like you know more than i do about this story they were bringing like they thought someone else was in there that was the shooter so they brought that guy's little brother in and just basically sent in a minor into a hostage situation to find nobody he knew and then oh no they were just doing all these things were like the the only thing they're not doing is saving these people um oh my and so now it's become like the hostages and the

criminals like not working together but like definitely feeling safer together than they're feeling safer together exactly and remember the prime minister even called uh and and like didn't help the woman and then the woman's mom called and was was like why were you so rude to the prime minister and she's like yeah i'm being held hostage right now oh yeah the police weren't even like telling anyone's families that they were yeah they found out later that like their families oh they found out when they when the criminals let them call their families. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Their families were like, you're being what? So I don't remember where we ended, but it was like the cops finally hatched a plan that they thought would work or something.

Oh, yeah. Man, you really remember probably more than I do, honestly. I'm telling you, I'm shocking the world right now because I often... You're shocking me. I don't even remember half of yesterday. No offense. I hope you don't take it. No, no.. I don't even remember half of yesterday. Like I, and I, no offense. I hope you don't take it. No, no, I certainly don't. I'm just impressed. But after you, after you tell a story, it often, it stays in my brain for about a minute, like a couple days.

And then after that, like we're already on to the next true crime and just all of the information usually gets so muddled. I mean, it's a lot to take in and then absorb. and just all of the information usually gets so muddled. I mean, it's a lot to take in and then absorb. Like, especially, I always find too, when I'm, when you're telling me a story, I'm telling you a story, it's, I feel like we're like on because we're like doing a show,

like where we know other people are listening. And so part of me thinks my brain turns off a little bit. Like, I think so too. You know, the memory part. I'm not like absorbing it as intently because I'm like responding and, you know, anyway. But yeah, so I think so too. You know, the memory part, I'm not like absorbing it as intently cause I'm like responding and you know, uh, anyway, but yeah, so I do not know. I definitely don't take offense. I'm just incredibly impressed because, um, you basically reminded me of things I had forgotten. Well, get used to, uh, never being surprised again. That was, that's maybe a one

and done. Never being surprised again. Um, okay. So let's let's see uh so mental health professionals at this point are like okay to to rescue these hostages and hope for the best outcome we have to resolve this asap and so they tell the police like figure it out you can't just leave them in there for they've been in there for days like you can't just leave them in there forever so in a final effort to end this unfolding drama police hatch a plan they decide they are going to drill into the vault and release tear gas to incapacitate jan and clark who are the two criminals and then attempt to i guess drag out the hostages like rescue them so this is their grand plan. They're going to gas the place. Yeah, I remember this.

And hope to incapacitate the criminals and take the hostages out. So they consult with a chemical weapons specialist who says it will take way too long to knock these guys down. Like they're not just going to like breathe and then fall over. It's going gonna take a lot longer and that would give them time to harm the hostages so they're like this is not a good plan because if they know they're being gassed like and they only have a few seconds left before they are knocked unconscious like they can do something erratic and the tear gas of course like you mentioned last week would also harm the hostages.

So it's like, well, you're just now gassing everybody. It's just not a good plan. But police said, OK, OK, cool. Well, we're going to do it anyway. So that's good. I love when you, you know, consult with an expert, a specialist in their field and then say, cool, cool, cool. But I don't care what you say. Yeah, I'm doing it

anyway so thank you so much for the advice um so police persisted they set to determining the vault size and the right quote-unquote dosage of this tear gas uh and police then start drilling into this bank vault okay it sounds like a bad uh it's like you couldn't just open a window or something like why are we drilling into a vault like that sounds so dramatic it sounds like a cartoon where they're like it's like wiley coyote like an anvil is gonna come crashing through yeah so they started drilling into the vault and of course the noise of this inside the vault is overwhelming and terrible and like saying like did they think no one was gonna notice they were gonna notice this drilling yeah so over the

surveillance microphones they could hear the women screaming don't stop help please because it was so loud and unbearable one officer started shouting that the men must be raping kristen because of the screaming and it was like no you're just bursting their eardrums asshole that's the most um i don't even know what to call that but like just so not taking responsibility like no like oh this horrible you also like by the way like i am, like, they are still criminals who are committing a robbery and are traumatizing these people, despite how much safer they feel with them versus cops. Like, I am aware that they're still not doing God's work. But at the same time, like they're not doing anything nearly as bad to be given that kind of blame or that kind of reputation of like, you must be doing this as you're holding a massive jackhammer trying to gas everybody. Like it was just that feels so gross. There's something so like.

So detached. Yeah. It's like you said, just like putting the blame elsewhere without even thinking. humanity putting the blame elsewhere without even thinking and by the way um this has bad consequences because all of a sudden these like headlines like people hear this and they're like what one of the criminals is raping one of the hostages and so headlines like it just becomes like news that this is happening when like this guy just said it um but kristen the whole time was yelling at the police to stop drilling because it was so freaking loud. And one officer did realize this and said, no, no, she's yelling at us to stop drilling.

But the others basically like shut him down and said like, no, no, we're going with our version of the story. So gross. And so Kristen later said that during this time when this was when everyone was like shouting and accusing and whatever and she was trying to explain herself clark held her hand to calm her down which made her feel quote enormously secure so like really they are bungling this to the point that the people holding them hostage with weapons are like the heroes, you know, it's just. Yeah. And like the irony of like, oh, she's screaming because she's terrified of the people that are actually making her feel better because you suck.

Because you're doing a stupid thing that experts told you not to do. Wow. So some people even thought the horrible noise of the drill would help them because it would wear down Clarkark and yon emotionally that's how loud this was that they were like this will be like psychological torture but then also to the victims so it's like this is not a good situation and at this point yon uh is panicking because he hears them drilling in he realizes okay they're going to gas us, you know. And he was terrified of the situation. And he, for whatever reason, was terrified of the lasting damage that tear gas might do to his body.

So like the weapons specialist had said, he started rigging up an explosive to fight back. Oh, my God. Because he realizes what they're going to do. explosive to fight back oh my god because he realizes what they're gonna do and so clark tells him to stop because if yon blows them all up that would do way more damage than tear gas and yon was like nope i'm doing it i'm building an explosive it's just like oh yeah so he yelled at the police and he said i have rigged an explosive that will block the drill. And the officers called him a bastard for abusing the women in the vault. And Jan said, what a shitty thing to say, you know? I have never abused a chick in my life.

So they're really offended by this accusation. And he's very proud of that. He's like, I'm a bad guy, but not to women. So please relax. I love chicks, okay? Yeah, come on. They're snazzy, say. Come on, yeah.

Read all about it. read all about it read all about it i love me a sally you know take her to the picture show okay um so that's actually our new podcast where we just talk like that for an hour every week we're gonna get fired from podcasting what do you mean say come on now study come on the women shouted that they were unharmed and that the men were not harming them but it was the police ensuring their demise if they didn't stop drilling they were like you are going to get us killed police if you keep drilling so jan screamed that he put the women under the line of the drill so any more drilling they did would drop concrete on them and hurt them he said sven was standing on a chair within its path and would be killed if they kept drilling the concrete would fall and kill him so on the phone brigitta pleaded for the release of clark jan and the rest of the hostages

everyone around them was yelling jan the police of Clark, Jan, and the rest of the hostages. Everyone around them was yelling. Jan, the police were yelling. Jan said Sven and the women would die if the police kept drilling. They replied they would not stop drilling. And if any harm would befall someone, it was Jan's fault, not theirs. Which I'm like, you're the police. You shouldn't be saying, well, too bad. If someone gets hurt, it's not our fault.

Like, oopsies. Yeah, you're literally causing potential damage so it seemed like nobody was thinking of the hostages as like people who could make their own say or you know neither side is putting them in a safe position um they're caught up in this like weird senseless battle between jan and clark and the police so eventually jan did move everyone out of harm's way to the back of the vault but this was all just like a crazy commotion happening and he put a blanket over their heads uh because i i assume because of the tear gas and clark told them to cover their eyes for safety and open their mouths to release pressure from their eardrums oh what in the

world okay i don't know elizabeth remembers wondering why the police hadn't told them that like you'd think the police would be like here's how you you know survive this attack we're gonna do to save you quote unquote um so again it felt like her captors again are caring more for her and her safety and her well-being than the police. So this is, again, the birth of Stockholm Syndrome as we know it. Also a reminder, like, just an added way that I would have lost faith in the police is that, like, if they were making—this is a couple bullets back at this point—but if they were drilling into that vault and making those terrible sounds and knew that they were going to be making those terrible sounds for a long enough period of time for criminals to react like i would again think like oh they really don't care about my safety because they're about to in theory if these were any other two criminals they would piss them off so much they would just kill us all now also yeah that's what the weapons guy said that'll give They'll know what you're doing and it'll give them time to hurt the hostages.

Sorry, I'm just still hooked on it. Yeah, I know. I mean, it's exactly right. It's like, why are you doing this if you know this is going to cause us more pain? Anyway, sorry, I didn't mean to jump back, but I'm just still on it. I'm just like, it's somehow like the dumbest of the things I've done so far. It's so dumb. And it's also like extra dumb because it's not like they thought this was a great idea. Someone literally told them, please don't do this. It's a bad idea. And it's going to cause more damage than you think. And they were like,

that's fine. You know, it's even worse because they were told the consequences and did it anyway. First, because they were told the consequences and did it anyway. It's like, oh, God, it's infuriating. Anyway, sorry about that. No, no. So Jan's explosive that he had rigged did damage the drill and concrete began to fall from the ceiling. It took a while for them to repair the drill. And finally, they were able to actually break through the vault. They broke a hole through with the drill.

Police told Jan he had 20 minutes to send his gun and explosives up through the hole on a wire, or they would commence their tear gas operation. The drill had damaged an electrical wire and the light went out, so now they are all sitting in the dark. Extra creepy. Clark, meanwhile, asked them to send down water and tampons the light went out so now they are all sitting in the dark uh extra creepy clark meanwhile asked them to send down water and tampons because one of the women had started their period a true gentleman he's like i gotta get you some tampons to not even be grossed out by the way that's a real man oh and then the women heard the police laughing about the tampon thing that that alone the rage that

would come out of my body it's just like so inferior like i would want to throat punch them like like the criminal is more a feminist than you the criminal could be like right yeah this is a natural part of a human body um and the police are laughing at you as they're risking tampons like really as they're risking your life as they're risking tampons like really as they're risking your life as they're risking your life i really that would be that would be the last thing to do me in that was the that would have been like the first like and final i would have been like you're done yeah um so yeah of course they hear police laugh and of course that offends all the women you know it's not just like the one who's on her period so sven yelled we need some menstruation pads do you know what that is and then clark shouted tampons and

police are just laughing um and they refused they were like nah we're not sending that down like really truly the immediately loss of complete faith totally like they clearly don't even give a shit about the basics you know so police refused to send tampons and instead they readied to gas the vault but jan had concocted another plan in the dark he had fashioned four nooses oh shit yeah he leveraged them up high and then put them around the hostages next wait a minute okay he said if the vault were gassed and stormed the hostages would hang uh and imagine you know they tear gas a place hostages presumably fall unconscious they're gonna hang in it they're hanging on a rope so this is now a new the newest development uh in this nightmare so clark told police to stand down and police refused they said they would gas the chamber and sven took the line

and said doing so would seal his fate with sven is the um the hostage the male hostage he said doing so would seal his fate along with the women's and they would all be killed and police said they would get them out as soon as they could and sven said yes well if you turn on the gas you do not have to get us out you can bury us in the same place you can bury us here because we'll be dead like sure yeah he basically said well you know what no no reason to come get us because we'll already be dead everyone is just exhausted at their wits end at this point um and one officer asked with tears in his eyes what are we going to do now like they're just so at a loss at this point so police

are like you know what we're're going to withdraw the gas. And they did. And they covered up the hole in the ceiling. Okay. They held a press conference announcing that they would all go home and rest. And they did. Oh, my God. So they just went home and slept.

And they stopped talking to Jan and Clark. They just went home and slept and they stopped talking to Jan and Clark. They went home to rest while the hostages were still stuck inside awaiting their uncertain fates. So at this point, the public is also losing its like rose colored view of Clark. Like Clark was kind of this folk hero and now people are getting not so hot on him anymore. The police had an open hotline encouraging. This is just hilarious. Encouraging people to call in with suggestions on what to do next.

Yeah. So they were like crowdsourcing ideas. I can't even imagine. Like the second the police come to us and say, what should we do? I'm like, that's literally so not my pay grade. I would call and and be like give her a fucking tampon you asshole yeah truly like you already made a hole through the vault just throw them in that way like it's not that so of course people you open this up to the public of course they're gonna get some wild suggestions so one of them was let them out but mop the floor outside the vault first so when

yon walks out he slips and drops his gun like like a clown and a banana like what just cover the ground in banana peels okay i mean again this is like a cartoon okay and you know what the worst part is in my mind i'm like they probably did consider this you know they're like oh write that one down at this point i feel like they would take anything except solid advice like actual advice right yeah so someone else said to use a really really really big magnet to suck the gun out of his hands and you know what they said they would put that one at the top of the list they said where do we get a big magnet? Somebody source a big magnet. Quick, let's call Bugs Bunny and get his big magnet over here.

So more psychologists joined the let them leave with the hostages side of this argument. And at this point, it seemed like the safest option the police had, and they were desperate. So safest option the police had and they were desperate so thankfully meanwhile in the vault yon let the hostages out of the nooses thank god um and police listened in as the whole group chit-chatted about everything i mean at this point they're just in there like what else is they gonna do besides just chat i feel like at this point they're doing like you know how like all the girls in uh elementary school when you're waiting at like pickup for like your weight I don't know what you would call it but like when you're waiting for to get picked up at school everyone was in a group just doing like those like hand clap games oh my god yeah I just feel like that's what they're just doing

that over and over I wonder what the Swedish version of that is. I'm not sure, but let me know. So police are listening in and the whole group is just like chit-chatting, playing games, icebreakers, you know, the whole nine yards. They're talking about everything from their hopes and dreams to Sven trying to quit smoking. Like they're just chatting about life. One of the women said the other bank workers were lucky not because they weren't hostages but because they were all on vacation now because the bank is closed oh that's a good point okay uh and Sven said no way their

bosses surely put them to work in other banks and guess what he was right they did not get a vacation they had to go work in other banks oh my god so they had philosophical questions about like morality about right and wrong the women asked clark and yon about prison like what was that like about life choices they had made they had they were telling jokes they were laughing together uh the next morning police lowered a bucket with sandwiches milk toilet paper and tampons so blessed be thank you damn time blessed be thank you so the group dug in on the food and jan made the hostages wear their nooses again anytime he thought the police might be looking. So he's like, just put these on to like trick them, sort of.

I honestly, at this point, if I were one of the hostages, I would just be trusting them. Like, they're not really going to hang me. I would hope so. Yeah. I mean, it doesn't seem like it. They've proven they don't want to hurt me every other time. They bonded, all of them. Man.

They bonded, all of them. Man. So every time that he thinks the police might look through the hole they made, he made them put the nooses back around their necks, but he would give them breaks. And Clark whispered to them, going off your point, that if the gas really did come, he would cut them all down to save their lives. Yeah. It seems like this man does a lot of things, but he does not want to be a murderer, especially to women. He really doesn't. Like, neither of them do.

So they stood in shifts and Sven volunteered to take the most time spent in the noose because he wanted to give the women more of a break. And Jan told him that was very respectable. I mean, Sven, I hope, grows up to be a hometown hero. I hope so, too. The police, give him a cigarette. You know, he's trying to quit smoking. But like at this point, he deserves one. If you're trying to quit and you're in the middle of this scenario, you should get back on cigarettes. Yeah, honestly, if nothing else, you deserve at least a smoke.

Just a puff of someone else's. Come on, you know? So the police drilled six more holes in the vault, and the gas plan was suddenly back on the table. So Jan shot up through one of the holes and caught an officer in the cheek with a bullet. Like, just shot through it and managed to to hit this officer and when this was announced on the radio they heard people and the people inside the vault heard this they started cheering like sorry when so they announced it on the radio that one of the officers had been shot through the hole and so the hostages started cheering when they heard this, when they got

the news on the radio. They were like, Jan's bullet hit one of the cops in the face. Yay. You know, that's how, you know, we've all really bonded when you're, you're all high-fiving. Seriously. Like that's how, you know, they've turned on you, you know, and you know, it hit him in the cheek. It didn't kill him thankfully, but you know, still oh my god so on the final night of this whole hostage situation ambulances were on standby outside of the bank they had oxygen blood anything else they might need to treat potentially major trauma depending on how this played out right so the police asked the media to stop reporting on new developments to avoid alarming jan or clark because they had a radio down there and they could hear what was going on.

So the radio station said, sure, sure, sure, sure, sure. And then announced the arrival of the ambulances anyway. So now they knew that things were getting heated. Yeah. So at 9.05 p.m., the hostages were not currently in their nooses and police unleashed the gas. Everyone collapsed, coughing and choking on the gas. Earlier, police had locked the vault from the outside so that they were stuck in there. Inside, the hostages screamed and begged for the police to open the vault and let them out.

But police would not release anyone until jan passed his gun up through one of the holes they had drilled wow okay so jan yelled i will not sacrifice you all that was never my intention and he surrendered the gun wow police yep wow i actually didn't see that coming yeah i know me neither police opened the vault i mean i did because I know the notes. When I was researching, I also didn't see that coming, to be clear. Police opened the vault, but they couldn't get anyone out because they were blocked inside by random debris. So they were still trapped. Meanwhile, no one was sending down a wire for Jan to surrender his gun. Interesting. Why?

How's he going to surrender his gun if you don't give him something to put it on? She's going to throw it really high and hope someone catches it? What in the world? What a dangerous game that would be. So he kept yelling, announcing that he surrenders and demanding the wire so he could give them the gun. And it's just not happening and the hostages meanwhile are crying and begging to be released so the police outside the vault didn't know that they were blocked in by rubble and they could not figure out why the hostages were not

walking out of the vault yeah so they commanded the officers above to pump more gas into the vault. It's just like the biggest shit show. I'm just mad about all of it. Yeah, it's infuriating. So frustrating. So they tell the officers up there, well, they're not coming out. Pump more gas in. And there's just more screaming as a result of this.

Doctors had determined that they only had 15 minutes to expose the hostages along with clark and yawn because before the gas became truly dangerous like and could do lasting damage or kill them and it had been half an hour of this tear gas and luckily the police had made an error and the canisters sprayed the gas horizontally rather than vertically so a lot of it was just getting sprayed against the walls instead of directly into the hole so it was sort of like just hitting the sides of the hole instead of down like how you like you said luckily they made a mistake and i'm like unsurprisingly they made a mistake luck unluckily they made lots of mistakes luckily they made this particular mistake yeah yeah yeah yeah and so they are fortunately not getting a hundred percent of

the brunt of this tear gas um but obviously still horribly torturous to be in there finally after a total of 45 minutes police got the gun and explosives and told the group to come out hostages first so the women told clark and yawn to walk out first oh oh okay oh that's smart because they're like they are obviously not going to shoot the first people that come out yeah because they said hostages come out first and the hostages are like you guys go but you know at this at this point i feel like the cops would see two men and go, those are the women. All right. The next two people. Yeah.

You never. Yeah. I wouldn't trust them to even know the difference at this point. No. So the hostages tell Clark and Jan to walk out first. And they do. An officer pressed a gun against Jan's neck and threatened to shoot him even as he was being handcuffed. And I know police restrained

clark to a stretcher but a recording caught them hitting him in the face and hanging him despite having him in secure custody yeah wow doesn't that sound fucking familiar um so kristin yelled at them to stop hurting him as police police interviewed the hostages, they immediately began asking about rape, like right away. And Sven said that Jan had been pleasant toward the women and that all three women had confidence in Jan and Clark. Kristen criticized the police for the whole operation and told them to send her regards to Clark

with a hug and a kiss. Uh-oh, someone's falling in love. Ooh. Major media outlets like the new york times said quote reliable police officers had confirmed that the women were undoubtedly sexually assaulted like oh my god how reliable can we reliable is a stretch a very big stretch psychiatrists reported that the hostages simply had shell shock, which is modern day PTSD, former parlance for PTSD, and couldn't accurately describe what they'd been through, including rape. So that's why they weren't saying that's what happened.

Yikes. Swedish psychiatrist Nils Beira, who worked with the police, coined the phrase normalmstorgsyndrome. And normalmstorg was the square where the phrase normamstorg syndrome and normamstorg was the square where the bank was located so they called they were calling it the normamstorg robbery so he coined this term calling it a syndrome and then this later developed into stockholm syndrome which i think was probably easier for uh english-speaking folks to say than normamstorg which i'm also probably not saying correctly. But yeah, so he coined this phrase Normam Stork syndrome, and then it later became Stockholm

syndrome. Got it. So one police officer named Morgan Rylander challenged the police narrative after the ordeal. He said that Jan never strangled any of the women, which the women also confirmed. And this was a huge deal because the alleged strangling that they were talking about was the justification police used to send Clark into the bank in the first place. And now they're saying there was no strangling. So why would you send this guy in there? He challenged several other claims police made about Jan's actions, and police ended up stating that Morgan, just like the hostages,

was simply suffering from trauma and was just confused about the events. I mean, gaslighting. Yeah. All in all, the victims of the events viewed Jan and Clark positively, as we've definitely realized. Clark was able to get off free from the event, but he had to go back to prison to complete the six year sentence that he had been serving when they took him out. All right. Well, at least he didn't get charged. prison to complete the six-year sentence that he had been serving when they took him out and all right well at least he didn't get charged to be fair like he had nothing to do with it they brought him yeah they brought him there they brought him there and then he didn't do anything so he didn't

do anything exactly sven visited jan in prison uh sven is the the male hostage. Visited Jan in prison. They're becoming buddies. He actually ran into Clark at a nightclub by chance and shared a table with him. You know, I don't know how I'm supposed to feel, but what I am feeling is like, I'm glad that they are fine. Right? I'm glad this is bizarre. This is kind of like at the end of a rom-com when you get like a year later oh my god you see everyone getting together and like sharing a drink and laughing about all the all the hilarities of the past i can understand the like the the psychiatric the like a professional confusion about like how can someone share a table with someone who,

you know, held them as a hostage. Who put a noose around your neck. Right. Yeah. But then at the same time, like with all the nuance to the story, it's like they were,

they were of the two evils they were dealing with. They were the lesser of the evils and therefore probably feel less threatening. And they at least were ensuring their safety and i mean talk about trauma bonding with somebody you're getting tear gas together you're i think it's one of those things where like it's probably very easy to look at that story and go like how fucking dare they or like i can't believe they would want to be friends or be civil to those people like that's certainly a unless you've been in

that situation shut the fuck up absolutely i mean this guy you don't know trying to get tampons for you and like treating you with the utmost respect that alone the brownie points are through the roof like i know a man back then like especially back then like fighting for you to just get a fucking tampon while the people who are trying to save you are laughing at you or laughing about it i mean for having a uterus like fuck off like and you're you're right like it's definitely very nuanced like don't get me wrong this sounds very traumatic and nobody should be held at gunpoint or like right have a noose around their neck to to threaten the cops okay like i'm fully on board with that i i don't want to be a hostage

in any under any circumstances but um but yeah there's so much more nuance than just that blanket story i can understand how it became like a phenomenon like an us against them almost that like that psychologist wanted to study of like how does the human brain you know act this way i totally get the how wild of a story it is i think it's yeah it's like fascinating i think it really does just come down to to nuance and you had to be there and that's kind of it yeah to be there is like this if you had to be there was summed up in one story like this is definitely it yeah yeah and weirdly enough uh sven actually continued working for the bank uh for many years so wow he just i hope they gave him the promotion of a fucking lifetime i mean really he deserved or at least longer cigarette breaks since a really

good christmas bonus yeah i assume he didn't stop smoking after that. But I don't know, maybe he did. Kristen entered a, okay, well, you already called this, entered a romantic relationship with Clark for a time, but that ended eventually. way she chose to survive an unreal situation and again like i can't imagine how like it must have just been the ultimate like you had to be there you can't tell me yeah what i was suffering from some psychotic delusion or whatever if if you weren't there like i mean especially like if if like one of your big things is you want to find someone who will take care of you and in a in one of the most traumatic times of your life he of all the people was the one taking care of you i mean to be fair he didn't start this whole thing yeah like he just showed up and he was like he just showed up yeah but he did join in on the hostage thing so like for what you know it's not a great power dynamic but it could also be you know i mean there's a lot of uh people who have survived some really tough things and uh i'm trying to figure out like not that i have a

politically incorrect way but i'm trying to make sure that i'm inclusive but um you know there are stories of people dating somebody or meeting somebody and they have a really bad experience with them and will stay in a relationship to try to justify or show that they weren't you know what i mean like there's um i don't know if this was her situation at all it doesn't sound like that for her but um there are a lot of people who will get into a relationship with someone who didn't treat them well even before they were dating or something or maybe they were assaulted by somebody and they'll choose to be in this relationship because they don't want to seem weak like they have some agency left in this oh interesting and so maybe it was i truly do think maybe there was some trauma bonding and real feelings there i that's my

what i'm guessing but it could have also been, I was in a traumatic moment with somebody and I want to feel like I have some control or some say of how this ends. That doesn't make some sense. You know, so maybe she was just trying to write part of her own narrative. Yeah. I don't know. And I mean, it sounds like she was frustrated with the way that she was portrayed in the media as having this syndrome that she had no control over. And, you know, she was being blamed for surviving it in a certain way. So, yeah, I think what you're saying makes a lot of sense. And obviously, we don't know. But I think any of the above would make some sense.

And Kristen actually herself became a social worker. And she says it's her goal to listen to those whom no one listens and respect those whom no one listens and respect those whom no one respects which i'm like that's that's a lovely a noble pursuit yeah um elizabeth had begun had become good friends with kristin in the crisis and they actually traveled together to find relaxation which is kind of nice elizabeth quit the bank uh can't blame her for that and moved back in with her family to heal can't blame her for that and moved back in with her family to heal can't blame her for that either no definitely not forget to return to her husband and children and

she worked at the bank for another 30 years holy shit still lives with her husband in stockholm so wow wow clark was in and out of prison for decades until his final release in 2018 when he escaped sailed the mediterranean robbed more banks went to prison escaped again etc that man just won't learn i know and then in 2018 i think i probably worded that wrong but in 2018 he was fine that was his final release uh from his cycle of robies. And now we're going on five years of maybe good behavior. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Jan served his time for the bank heist quietly, just waited it out under the radar. In 2020, author David King released a comprehensive book on the ordeal called Six Days in august and um that is what most of

these notes are based on when david met with clark he asked him about the normum store robbery and clark said fuck it was fun what well you know it's certainly one of those i imagine it was he got out of prison for a day for six days and got to it was certainly uh definitely something he got to go back to jail and have a story for everybody at lunch the next day where have you been it's like you have no idea what i've been going through like were you in solitary oh no quite the opposite really i was bonding. I was making friends and playing hand clap games in a bank vault. Oh, my God. So when David talked about the same, David, the author, talked about it to Jan, Jan expressed, unfortunately, deep regret. He said he had no right to endanger innocent people's lives for his own gain.

And if he could go back and undo what he did he would what a freaking story so that is the story of stockholm syndrome and how we got that phrase and uh where it comes from and why why it might not really be a real quote-unquote thing real syndrome which is something i mentioned in the beginning last week yes uh you know it's some people think this is just it's not a real psychiatric diagnosis which now we can see like why why it was so nuanced um and that it might just be like a uh a mishmash of traits from ptsd uh trauma bonding and that kind of thing kind of mashed together. Or just like self-preservation.

Or self-preservation. Yes. Anything. And, you know, I forgot part of this. Where did I, did I say this line? Maybe I said it last week, actually. Oh, I did. Sorry. So I mentioned, I don't, did I mention this? That a tissue was discovered in the vault with semen on it? Yeah. Yeah. Oh,

I did mention that. Okay. Um, and one woman said that she had kissed Jan and encouraged him to take care of himself in order to relieve his tension. Um, but this was like a survival mechanism. Honestly,

it makes so much sense though, because like get the tension out of this man who has a gun in the room, you know, like, and also like, um but this was like a survival mechanism she was honestly it makes so much sense though because like get the tension out of this man who has a gun in the room you know like and also like you know sexually arouse him so he doesn't want to hurt me like you know i mean it's actually kind of a genius move very very smart and it worked you know he they bonded uh mental talk about mental strength to be able to go through with that and not you know yeah i don't know i just thought that was really impressive but of course everyone then took it to mean oh um she was assaulted and she just doesn't remember was just like fuck off yeah definitely a you had

to be their situation and maybe that's what a lot of stockholm syndrome is 100 and wow what a good story christine whoa what a fucking this was a good episode i feel like we gave ourselves a little doozy here i'm very proud yeah this is quite a quite a tale yours and mine i uh oh man we were supposed to talk about being having a tour again at the beginning or maybe we kind of did but reminder again that we are going on tour soon and you can go get your tickets online at our website so um we never do what we're supposed to do sorry i know i really i did like i did like our stories this week christine i'm excited to hear what you've got next week me too wish me and last week in our after chat we talked about different types of cereals from the 90s um I think we said we were going to do a two-parter of that. Oh, my God.

But now I also want to talk about Salisbury Steak and Hand Clap Games. So we might do that instead. We have a lot to discuss. Okay. So if you are a member of Patreon, go hop over and check out our after chat after this episode. We'll be waiting. And very excited to see you over there where we just are just continue to ensue chaos you know yeah yeah yeah yeah it never ends and that's why we drink