And That's Why We Drink - E316 Em's Apothecary and a Tincture of Frenzy

Episode Date: February 26, 2023

Welcome to episode 316 at Em's Apothecary! We're here to cure what ails ya and bring you some creepy tales this week. First Em takes us on a wild ride through the seven deadly sins. Then Christine covers the also wild tale of Alice and Gerald Uden. And should we just talk about nervous poops? ...and that's why we drink!We can't wait to see you on the road with our brand new On the Rocks tour! Come get creeped out with us! andthatswhywedrink.com/live

hi hello christine oh how are you uh oh i am a-okay i just took my vitamins and you know we're just proud of you thank you waiting for them to kick in i've officially made an apothecary yes which i'm very excited but i'll send you a picture of it it's uh it looks very well you tell me what i need to do to update it because right now I think it looks pretty darn good. But I want to change up either the tray or something. I want it to look like a whole experience. You know what I'm saying? Sure. Right now I just have the spooky bottles. Which I'm fine with.

But we can do better. We can do better. You know what I mean? But anyway, I'll send you a picture of that. I'm sending it right now to Gio's Trio. Gio's Trio. Do you know I do that every time I think about Gio's Trio? No, I didn't.

But now I do. Anyway, okay. I sent you a picture. That's my apothecary situation. And I'm telling you, if you are someone out there who needs to start taking vitamins or supplements it is a fucking game changer because every day i wake up and i go every day i think i've gotta just i gotta get to the apothecary real quick but i hope it's open i sure hope i sure hope the the apothecary man is there for me today and this is this is good stuff it's good stuff right you're on to something here are these what are these, Tylenol?

No, vitamins. In Penelope's, why is it called Penelope's? Okay, so that was, that's one place out here that Eva's actually currently obsessed with. It's called Toothsome's Emporium or Sir Toothsome's Emporium or something. And it's like a restaurant that's also got a lot of like, it's got like a candy store. But it's all like steampunk apothecary themed and uh but so i went there before i even knew evo liked it but allison and i stumbled upon it and they have a whole bunch of like fun you know apothecary jars and so i was like and they're they're filled with candy but then i was like let's just get this and then eat the candy. And then I've got a PopCure jar. It's like best of both worlds.

I know it. And so anyway, there's a lot of bottles there. And only like half of them are currently filled. And I found some like DIY thing where you can like dye the glasses. They look all like different colors. This is like very much the early levels the early stages and then one day one day when allison and i like have like a much bigger place we plan on having a room that looks like half apothecary half uh spooky tavern half like witches area which no you put that in your zillow search right uh-huh well certainly we we have

requested an additional room right right that's close enough they'll know what it means they'll know what it means but so uh anyway when uh you know one day we'll have a big spooky cabinet that's unnecessarily large full of vials but this is my this is my starter pack i love it it's great um i'm i'm impressed it's not really as um you know thorough as as as my apothecary, which is otherwise known as my nightstand, but it is much more organized. Thank you. I am impressed by that. I'm very proud of your nightside apothecary.

Thank you. Anyway, that's my drink this week. I drink water with my vitamins, with my apothecary pills, because I am growing my apothecary. And why do you drink, Christine? Boring. You should be drinking laudanum or something. You should get some cooler liquids to go with your, I don't know, tincture. You could get a tincture. Tinctures.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Allison, by the way, tried to insert herself into this apothecary plan. And she was like, well, we should get jars and put a bunch of my lotions in it because at an apothecary, they would sell balms. And I'm like, you just want to play. You just want to be in the apothecary. You just want to be part of this. I meant you say I'm an only child, Allison. You don't get to have my apothecary.

Get your own. I was like, we can have a shared apothecary when we have like a big old house that has enough room for all of your bombs. Like as someone who she has like 60,000 lotions and she's like, we should put all my stuff in your apothecary. And I'm like, then then I'm barely involved. So anyway, then you will need to hire someone to run it. Well, we should have. I was telling her we should have like a bottom. Like if we have a big spooky cabinet is what I'm thinking.

Big cabinet. Yep. Bottom bottom row like coffees and tea leaves and jars. Love that idea. Middle one, maybe like lotions and, you know, skin care being good for yourself moments. And then a whole other row is just vitamins and supplements. The inside of you is taken care of. Okay. Hear me out. I would switch the lotion and the vitamins just because it kind of weirds me out that the coffee and the lotions would be like co-mingling almost. You know what I mean? You know, that's me trying to compromise with Allison because she's shorter and we'll need the shorter shelf. But I do think we should put all of her stuff on the highest shelf where no one can touch it. I do think that's a good idea. So I am with you. Oh, I was thinking lotions bottom now, because if Alison's shorter, she reaches the

bottoms. Any of the scents just kind of sink down. They don't dilute all of your tinctures. I see where you're going. I kind of like the idea of hiding all of her stuff, though. That sounds like a fun game. I think once you mentioned that idea, I jumped ship and thought I'm bored with yours. But yes, I love your apothecary. Thank you. We'll shop it. We'll figure it out. I love it. I can't wait to stop by, see what's available.

If you ever need anything, let me know. Get something to cure my woes. Yeah, so we'll see. I think you would like that secret fourth shelf where it's actually also affiliated with the Spooky Tavern, if you know what I'm saying. Ding! I'm into it. I think that's the Christine shelf. It's just like some codeine-laced alcoholic cough syrup up top for all my woes.

Okay. Why do you drink? Oh, I drink my tinctincture today which is just another water boring um because i got a haircut do you like my hair i chopped it all off you caught me in a moment when i was drinking water that was not meant to sound so everybody is now thinking christine's hair must look terrible. It looks very nice. Terrible.

Mid-big gulp. Ooh. Did you go to a new place, or do you have a regular? I did. Guess how much it cost. Ooh. That's a risky game.

$10. No, I don't know. Like, $60? What? $30. Oh, right in't know. Like $60? What? $30. Oh, right in the middle. Are you kidding? Do you know that I got Gio's haircut the other day?

It was $130. I'm like, my haircut was $100 less than Gio's. Like, what is going on? To be fair, every inch of his body is covered with hair. I know. He's like Gaston. Yeah, he probably did add a lot of anxiety to people's days when he goes into that hair salon. So like I know, I know, but like, wow, I just felt like, what is going on?

I'm like, I don't have any excuse. Like I spent two years not getting my hair cut because I have so many excuses. Like it's so expensive. And now it's 30 bucks. Are you kidding? Like I'll get my hair cut every day. I don't care. I used to like, I mean mean when I had long hair getting

my haircut was not an like a regular event but it costs a lot of money and I used to think like man people with short hair like they really just like make out like bandits but I have to get my haircut like every month if not every every other month at least and so even though it's do it himself you know he's like forget it I would love to learn how to do it myself. Like RJ cuts his own hair sometimes. And I'm like, that's honestly so impressive. But I think he just takes like a buzzer to it. I don't think he actually I just I'm very, you know, people with skills are just always so impressive to me. Hasn't Allison tried to cut your hair?

That was a COVID situation. I don't think that was a quarantine project that wasn't part of the apothecary's offerings no no no but i i do um she did a great job for not knowing what she was doing i was impressed i mean it's better than anything i could pull off so yeah we also i mean it was the perfect time to do it though because if i hated it we were still inside for another year so whatever that's fair that's fair but um but yeah that's all i don't really have anything too exciting well that's not true i'm literally the reason i drink in a negative way is i'm just like so overwhelmed by our upcoming tour in a good way in a good way in a bad way and a bad way

i'm excited for you to come rehearse and i'm excited for the day where we're like okay we've got it i'm very excited for that day and i'm honestly so angry it hasn't come yet um wow i really am so fucking stressed like the like like i'm so stressed this is the only time today that i probably won't be crying um and it's because i'm trying to be brave for you and there's just nothing in my apothecary yet that has been able to fix me um can you can you step it up please because i would love to in my apothecary yet that has been able to fix me. Can you step it up, please? Because I would love to visit your apothecary and cure my woes, which this is my big woe right now. The second I have something stronger than propranolol, I'll call you.

Thank you. No, I really, I'm just so beyond scared. I'm currently cold because my blood is running i see it's it's holy crap it's also so scary because we were so proud of the last show that like you just feel like this show has to be on par if not better and like the other thing is the first time we did here for the booze was in january of 2020 right is that right february a whole year february of 2020 and so this is the first time we're doing a new show for the first time in three years like this is in other words even though we had a long break and then had to go back with here for the booze we we at least knew how people reacted to things.

We at least knew which clips were funny and like, oh, some of this stuff will be. But now we're like, we just have to tell ourselves people will like it, but we have no proof of that. So it's kind of terrifying. It's like the first show, Phoenix, we're looking at you. You better laugh. We are very lucky because Phoenixoenix is has always been one

of our loudest crowds it's our favorite we always go there first i feel like and so um this is gonna be really i'm sure this comes out after that show and if phoenix happened to be incredibly quiet uh-oh i don't think they will be they're great they're every time we go there they and and don't worry guys we we are making a show there will be. They're great. Every time we go there, they... And don't worry, guys. We are making a show. There will be a show. We're just in that frenzied state of like... Right now, it's all a jumble and we're trying to put the pieces together. Let's be honest.

Let's be just totally point blank here. Let's be real TMI about it. I'm having nervous poops every single day. Let's just talk about it. Oh, for sure. I'm scared always. And I just want to be, everyone knows what that feeling is when you just like your, your tummy doesn't feel good because you're so scared about something. It feels like it's like dropping every time you think about it. It's I've just been on one big drop this whole time.

And I just hate it. And, um, every time someone in our team is like, Hey, so like, there's an interview opportunity for next week. I'm like, don't you know what we're panicking through for the next several weeks, every second of every day. Do you think I have time for an interview? People I, and also I really, my, my own friends don't seem to understand that this is like a full flight or fight experience. And they'll be like, oh, when's your show? Oh, tell me all about your show. I want to talk about your show.

And I'm like, truly the last thing I want to do. I please don't. If you're going to ask about it, just don't, please don't be near me. Because I just, like the one moment I could think about how I'm not on stage is like now being complete with people asking me about being on stage. how I'm not on stage is like now being complete with people asking me about being on stage and unless you want to get projectile vomit unless you want to get projectile vomit on maybe don't ask any questions about it anyway we are I know it's it sounds so backwards but we are also like once we've got it figured out we will be somewhat excited and I say somewhat because I will be terrified until 10 minutes into the show when

my propranolol is kicked in um and then i'm gonna feel so grateful that this is our job and i'm gonna be so blown away and i'm gonna be so happy and i'll be like i can't believe this is what we get to do for but i remember when we were worried and then i know it's gonna sink right back it's the most twisted experience where like half the time i'm in complete peril and the other half the time i'm just so fucking stoked that this gets to be my life and there's never a gray space it's just it's so wild so anyway by the time this comes out we will be in the stoked period but we are talking about all of our jitters currently and uh that's it i know poor eva has been in zero of the brainstorming sessions um because em and i basically kick her out because we're like you you don't need to see us this way like not like this

not like this you know you see us in so many different states of behavior and uh of peril and of fight or flight but just sit this one out like you know take care of yourself because we're going to really send you into some sort of a mental black hole and so instead we've been doing it solo so Eva is coming to rehearse uh next week as we record this and has absolutely no idea what to expect so that's kind of fun we'll see she might need some of our propranolol or something I know she's gonna be making phone calls in the back like yeah we need some of our propranolol or something i know she's gonna be making phone calls in the back like yeah we need some help here okay well anyway that's why i drink okay yay what a good serious important big reason to drink and it's also why i drink every day of my

life um yeah i thought so oh all right well um hmm let's just jump into it christine why don't we let's do it we're obviously feeling a little chaotic and nervous about things today uh here is a chaotic nerve-wracking topic are you ready for it um i thought no yes i was like wow i'm ready for something to some escapism and then you were like no here's more of the feeling you're currently feeling but okay um it's a tinge of it's a tinge of frenzy but other than that it's an escape okay i'm in i like a little frenzy here is a touch of frenzy a touch of frenzy also known as the seven deadly sins not to be confused with the circles of hell which i did cover and i think episode 65 so i remember we were on tour i think during that too i remember you researching that i think on a

train or something that sounds maybe right maybe that was a dream I had. Anyway. What an odd dream. Come to my apothecary. I'll fix you right up. What does it mean? Read my palm and give me a tincture. I really, I would like a sign eventually in my apothecary that says tinctures. I'm going to make you one that says read my palm and give me a tincture. It sounds like, I just haven't heard that word before,

not before, but in a very long time. So it's, it's feeling right in my brain. It's one of my favorites. Tincture. It's, it's feeling bubbly in my,

in my head. If you know what I'm saying, that's the idea. All right. Seven deadly sins. And also a quick featurette of their affiliated demons. Okay. So, uh uh the seven deadly sins which i'm excited to talk to you about sweet uh raised christian child catholic catholic excuse me it is technically christian but i y'all sup y'all separate yourselves from the rest of the christians

what you think you're god yeah well yeah okay so the seven deadly sins aka the seven vices mortal sins cardinal the reason we separate is it's just like a very niche like if you're going to catholic school like everyone is like everyone who's been to catholic school is like oh i know what that's like you know what i mean like it's a very um nuanced nuanced form of uh It's a very nuanced form of childhood. Trauma. Yeah, trauma, precisely. So I just say that for other people who have also experienced that.

So you feel seen. I feel you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. Well, then all of you can probably harmoniously sing along to my notes as I talk about something you know much more about than I do. But fun fact is, you know that the deadly sins don't actually come from the Bible. Yes. That's why when you said the Catholic thing, I was like, I don't, this isn't a thing I learned about because I don't think it's a biblical thing. Where do they come from? Where did they come from?

So it comes from the fourth century. And it was a monk named Evagrius Ponticus who lived in what is today's Turkey. Okay. And he was an influential writer and philosopher. And he was a monk who had a very, very stern discipline. And he walked the real straight and narrow, super strict path indulgence he sounded like the exact opposite of who i'm inviting to a party i actually want to invite him to dinner because he probably will only drink water but i don't want him to come to my party because i feel like i need a better energy than that i'll have him over with

only one other person so if i'm getting overwhelmed the other person can maybe do the social dance for me. But other than that, I don't want him ruining all my friendships at once. That's right. Just one at a time. Yeah. So he wrote a lot about the spiritual hurdles that you could encounter. And this is why I'm talking about Christianity, because I feel like you've had at least some conversations regarding that i'm certain of it uh and of his spiritual hurdles that you could encounter on your path towards god uh this led him to writing about the eight

deadly thoughts oh instead of the seven deadly sins okay and i like that he felt like we needed to keep it real concise with eight like you could have like a hundred deadly thoughts and i like that he felt like we needed to keep it real concise with eight like you could have like a hundred deadly thoughts but he was like eight's probably you know the best like no one's everyone's gonna stop remembering after a dozen or so you might as well stick to like a you know a handful a manageable amount which actually is interesting because i do think seven is in psychology. I think the research shows that after seven items, you start forgetting things. That's why phone numbers are seven digits.

So I think eight deadly thoughts, obviously there's a reason that didn't land. And it's because we all kept forgetting one. There's one we can never remember. It's probably forgetfulness. It's like when you're trying to name all 50 states and there's always one you miss i always miss about 36 but you know okay well one same difference well so here do you want to guess what the eight deadly thoughts are they're pretty much the same as the sins i'm gonna embarrass myself and like not know um sloth um greed uh um gluttony envy uh uh anger which is uh uh what's the word for anger again that they use some fancy word they actually used anger for this okay never mind rage i don't know you're thinking of wrath but uh oh wrath wrath yes yes yes but it was actually originally called anger so okay see i do i have

monk and i um and i don't know lust did i say that already uh so you're pretty on you're pretty on board there's so you got gluttony you got lust you got envy which at the time was called avarice you got wrath which at the time was called anger you got sloth and then i think the i don't one of the ones that you did not get was pride which is still around i wonder why and then the other two at the time which no longer exist as sins were uh melancholy and vainglory oh melancholy well yeah that's tough yeah so um allegedly christians ended up taking some of this also from uh they took some of this knowing about it, and they also took from Hellenism, which was the pagan beliefs of ancient Greece. And also from an Iranian folk religion, which involved soul journeys after death and the kinds of things they might encounter as a soul.

And so all of this kind of led to the concept. Well, the Deadly Thoughts moved west. It got translated to Latin and then edited down to seven and basically all that compiled becomes the seven deadly sins so it yeah it gets edited down to seven and at one point someone took out sloth so sloth was out then they replaced it with envy but they already had avarice. So, okay. And then in the 13th century, we lost melancholy. We get sloth back. I love this exchange there.

Who decides these things? I mean, God. I feel like there's a council. There's got to be. Yeah, it's probably a council of one guy, and he just can't make up his mind. I don't know. It's actually he keeps switching it out for his diary by accident he keeps writing his feelings in the wrong spot he's like i'm not sad anymore and he's just like now i'm just sleepy um i kind of think of it's

it's more like uh like i've always been really fascinated i feel like there should be a documentary about this the people who work for like miriam webster who like once a year sit around a table and like discuss every fucking word and like i feel like there there's some sort of thing going on like that where they're like what gets passed and what gets left on the floor yeah i imagine there's some sort of like religion lawyers who would be involved in that council because you have to go through every situation of like well can you have have sloth for this but can you have sloth for that it took them hundreds of years to decide mass was no longer in latin so like i can't imagine any of this goes uh efficiently you know great point anyway that's the way my brain's imagining it there's just a bunch of people writing down everything they've ever thought about they're

just sitting at it it's all men they're all sitting at a table and they're all just bitching about this yeah it's so so important so uh so melon by the medieval times melancholy is out uh no melancholy yeah melancholy is out slothoth is back. Melancholy is out, Sloth is in. Yeah. Pass the word. Alert the authorities. These are the styles of the year. Fashion trends. Then Avarice. Oh, sorry.

Avarice is not the same as Envy. I got that mixed up. Avarice is the same as Greed. So the name just got changed over time. So Greed always was here, but she needed a new name. She needed a glow up. And we got Greed. Glow up.

Indeed. Reow up. Indeed. Rebranding. Then people decided that pride and vainglory were too similar. So they dropped vainglory. I mean, vainglory is a more fun word, but I do see why they had to get rid of one. I'm also like, if they're so similar, why didn't you get rid of pride? Like, what's the situation there? Great point.

Obviously, pride was a little more important. No. So pride was also declared the leader of the other sins which i love that they clearly derailed in this meeting they totally derailed and they were like of all of if you were one of these who would it be and like it just became a conversation where pride became the main honcho yeah so now we have the following. Gluttony, sloth, pride, envy, wrath, lust, and greed. Those are what we've got. And indulging in them is called, they're called the deadly sins because indulging in them is deadly to the soul. That's why it is a deadly or mortal sin.

Got it. deadly or mortal sin got it um if you do any of these things too much or too often just things will not work out for you over time you'll lose friends you'll lose enemies i don't know well that's something for an author to figure out right about it something for not us to figure out so too many too much of any of these sins in your soul will be damned to hell. That's the nice religious twist to that. Cool. And they may not kill you, but you will pay for it eventually in some way. Great. Interestingly, I want to say, these are not unforgivable sins.

Like, they're not even commandments. They just happen to be deadly which in my in my mind as someone who did not grow up with any real religious teachings i always assumed that seven deadly sins should be up there with like the commandments it's like would think so but i yeah apparently they're not even fucking related but like but i feel like the ten commandments are so much more specific so it's like don't, you know, cheat on your spouse. And it's like, that's a very specific one. Whereas like these other ones, these seven deadly sins are more like behavioral qualities you can have. So I feel like maybe that's why you're supposed to like work against them. Well, I guess if it's like, don't cheat on your spouse, you would be partaking

in one of the seven deadly sins right so that already get that already happens by breaking one of these sin commandments right right that's true um i think the it sounds like i don't know it sounds like all a bunch of baloney so it does sound like baloney you know that's some oscar meyer shit right there last checked. Not that I'm saying cheat on your spouse. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying like all of this is just. Religion is silly, folks. It's an eye roll to me.

This whole thing about you're going to kill your soul. Like, come on. Yeah. Just be a good person, you know? Mm-hmm. Just be nice. I mean, I'm the goodest I'll ever get. And if I'm still going to hell, well.

That's just too darn bad. Then you might as well sloth around a bit and enjoy your life, okay? I'm the goodest I'll ever get. And if I'm still going to hell, well, that's just too darn bad. Then you might as well sloth around a bit and enjoy your life, okay? As the person who takes like three naps a day and eats a hundred snacks out of my nosh galosh, look, it's not my fault that maybe I'm one of the dead, I'm playing around with all the deadly sins. Yeah. Okay, so the Catholic Church's official stance on the seven deadly sins. They say that only God can see into a human soul.

And even if you commit these sins without asking for forgiveness, so if you just happen to be the dirtiest sinner there ever was, apparently, God could still forgive you based on the situation. So even though they're technically the seven deadly sins, they're still the seven very circumstantial sins. I can see that, though. It's like, oh, well, I was being lazy today, but I broke my leg and I'm feeling sad about something. OK, well, then God can forgive you for that. But if you're just being an asshole and cheating on your spouse and you don't care because you're a sociopath, then maybe God's going to be like, hmm.

care because you're a sociopath then maybe god's gonna be like i think that's one of my my personal peeves about you know those who partake often in the bible for sports yeah um well like i feel like a lot of people like to cherry pick and i feel like these concepts are so vague that anything could be right or wrong based on whoever's just opening their mouth and talking about it. That's exactly it. It's like, well, then, you know, I just say, bottom line, just like, you know, make yourself proud. Yeah.

Who cares? Self-care, yeah. So anyway, now we're going to get into each of the, do a little, a little, a mini deep dive on each of them. Demons, demons. Well well the demons come later so relax but hang on it will be interesting i promise you that so uh first to and this is maybe more of a crash course for people like me who didn't have to uh learn about this stuff i mean granted like

i know this isn't entirely biblical but but in my mind, I always associated this with religion. And so if you're someone like me who just always clumped them together and never really learned anything about it because you assumed it was religious, this is your crash course. So gluttony is excessive eating and drinking. I do the excessive eating. You do the drinking, Kristen. So we're already in trouble there. Ding dong. Here we are.

It's eating. And the reason why it's one of the sins do you know any do you have a clue no clue so uh it's because if you're eating more than one you could be eating more than needed for health and so now you're just being unhealthy which shouldn't be a sin but okay should not be a sin but i think it the deeper dive is that it has now, if you're not doing it for your health or to be full, then you are doing it as an act of pleasure. And so what? Heaven forbid. Catholics don't like that part. Heaven forbid that you enjoy something in your life.

You should be suffering always, but you should never be melancholic about it. Right. I'm like, I'm so over it, you know? be melancholic about it right i'm like i'm so over it you know and uh gluttony is also this part i could understand and it may be there over the years gluttony has just become like a warped translation but i could see this being one of the early reasons why gluttony was a no-no it's because it implies you are uh you have a lot of food and or resources um you just have a lot of things that if you're trying to flaunt your wealth you could be doing it to uh you could be buying expensive things that aren't necessary but you could be buying cheaper options and leave some

for others so it's sort of like you're being too lavish and like not too lavish not spreading the wealth yes right okay but you're not helping others who probably need what you are now. So much hypocrisy there. Over. I know. But yeah, I get what you're saying. Like that at least makes some more logical sense. So yeah, it could probably be better translated to an unnecessary abundance that you're not sharing with others.

Right. And that I can understand. You know, to a degree next one is lust uh which is uh i'm saying obviously but maybe you don't know lust is the intense yearning for something which is usually sexual but can really be anything um but the reason why this is a big no-no is because it distracts from gross righteous desires like serving god and some groups apparently this is beyond me some groups have taught that if you try to cool off your lust whatever that means or like cool your loins refocus your energy you can then use that

energy to help others which like oh i don't want that energy keep it away from me if you're redirecting your sexual desire your unfulfilled sexual desires into giving me a hand i don't want it can you imagine if someone's like i need help bringing these groceries in and then someone just comes running across the street and they're like well i'm really horny i can't wait to help you i'm can't wait. But God told me I have to do this instead. Okay. Well, no, thanks. I'm fine. Anyway, that's the suffering and that alone should be its own type of sin, but whatever. So there's lust and then there's sloth, which is excessive laziness, something I regularly deal with. And basically it means if you should be serving god but you are in the middle of serving

yourself and if you're resting then you're not serving okay i mean i think a lot of us can have have been working very hard to undo that exact thought of that exact uh construct that we've been ingrained with like resting is no good it's like yeah you know i imagine it also goes hand in hand with gluttony or something where like you're or not gluttony um whichever one it's like oh well you're yeah gluttony because it becomes an act of pleasure because you could add that into right like if you want to nap or you lounge around and now you're just being lazy and you just want to like yeah take all the time in the world instead of serving god okay who do you think you are well on top of you if you're not if you're resting you're not being helpful to god if you are excessively lazy you are wasting away whatever talents god gave you which is like

beyond disrespectful for not appreciating the skills he gave you when he could have given them to someone else how will capitalism thrive i mean no sorry i don't know i'm on one today you're you're sending me into a tizzy speaking of tizzies well so the longest uh deep dive I have for you is on envy. So it was defined in medieval times as, quote, sorrow at well-being, joy at harm. Which feels a little like schadenfreude or something to me. Schadenfreude, yeah, yeah, yeah. But so envy could be over someone's things, relationships, health, concepts, anything, just if you're jealous at all. things, relationships, health, concepts, anything, just if you're jealous at all. And if you envy what someone else has, the problem with it is that you'll eventually start to pray for their downfall so they don't have it anymore or so that you can have it.

And that is ungodly. That is unholy. Yeah, it's unkind too. I could see why, I mean, you know, just in a general sense, I can see why that one would be, you know, frowned upon. And I think it's human nature, obviously, but I guess all of these are. But yeah, I can see why, you know, you don't want to get to a point where you're wishing ill will toward other people.

You know, I get that. I get that. I get it. I get these on a human level that has nothing to do with like serving God. Exactly. Exactly. I get like, like all right if you have lust you know check yourself make sure this is like don't just like blindly follow it right

right right exactly so beyond the seven deadly sins envy pops up in a lot of cultures as a supernatural force of its own it doesn't it see which is weird to me that pride is considered the leader when envy can break off in all sorts of religions. It sounds like Envy's like the secret leader. She's a bad bitch. She's letting pride do the fronting. And meanwhile, she's in the back holding the whole thing together. She also lets pride be prideful and think that she's in charge.

But Envy's like, you're a fucking pawn in my game. That's right. You don't even know. And so Envy pops up all over the place. And in one of those ways is the evil eye. And so if you would like a deep dive with very, very, very well done sources, very, very well done research team over at Parkast,

please go check out our rituals episode on the evil eye, which is episode 23. I loved that episode. I don't think I've covered it on here before. We definitely can in the future, but I can tell you rituals was very well researched. I am very confident in all the information that we regurgitated to you via script and go check it out. So anyway,

the evil eye, just to give you a quick summation, the evil eye is part of many cultural and religious lores in Judaism and for Muslim people. It's been in there. It's in even places. It's just been in Greece, Egypt, Morocco, Romania, Italy, Turkey, Israel, Slovakia, Iran. It just kind of goes on and on that the evil eye is somewhere or at least known in some capacity. And the concept of the evil eye is when you have good fortune, jealous people can curse you out or not curse you out, curse you slash. It could be unintentional it can be intentional but just by looking at you with envy they're cursing you um and it leads to an evil eye where just the look alone is causing is damaging your your downfall yeah wow okay so this is why a lot of cultures

use special protections against the evil eye and envy in general. So a lot of people hang amulets, especially in areas that they want protection. And around the world, envy is this powerful concept. And even back in Syria in 3500 BC, there are carvings with protective symbols that are all meant to keep envy away so and just note as we're saying this they're like so evil eyes they're also called ocular amulets um i'm giving quotes because i don't use that phrase a lot. I don't know if anyone else has ever heard that before, but ocular amulets. And this is where I do a little spiel.

Join me, won't you, Christine? Well, you start. I'll stand on the sidelines so I know what the spiel's about. It's just a sidebar where I just wanted to say that a lot of people out there will purchase and wear a lot of ocular amulets as a fashion trend or a statement piece. And some say that the evil eye transcends culture and religious boundaries and anyone can wear it. And maybe that's true.

I would personally suggest that you learn a little bit about it before you're just kind of wearing it. you learn a little bit about it before you're just kind of wearing it even then might have some really strong you know uh affiliations for some people um the bbc even said it may be worth considering its meaning beyond a mere trinket or fashion statement the evil eye is a remnant from the very dawn of civilization harking back to some of humanity's most enduring and profound beliefs to wear an amulet flippantly without such knowledge might not only render its protective abilities useless, but incur an even more potent curse. Whoa, okay.

I didn't see it ending that way, but apparently the BBC is warning you of curses. I'm warning you about appropriation. Yeah, you know, pick and choose. Whichever one kind of, you know, makes you aware whichever pick and choose whichever one kind of you know makes you aware faster read into that one you know i love evil eye i can't i can't i can't oh my god iconography um and you know in uh i can see both sides i mean you know when i went to greece they sell so many of just like evil eye on everything and in Turkey too. And it's just, you know,

it's a really cool design. And I think if you know, especially if you got it from somewhere where you're like, oh, this has a meaning to me, I think it's, I mean, again, it's not really my place to say, I suppose. But, you know, I bought several as like gifts for people when I was there. So I don't know. I feel like it's one of those things where it's it's so often seen in my face that I don't even realize that maybe it's something I should be paying attention to or read more on but it's almost like I kind of clump it in nowadays with even like crystals because a lot of people just have crystals or want to wear crystals but like you got to be wary of like well how was had this crystal come about was it in a an ethical way you know i just i feel like just everything comes with a caveat now

not that that's bad but might as well throw this on the list of things to double check before uh you know yeah that makes sense i can see that there's there's nothing wrong with being well read about things that you buy and wear so that's true uh so anyway that is envy and now we're going to go on to greed which very much goes hand in hand with envy because it also focuses on material worth and so it also goes hand in hand with gluttony by the way because it's about wanting unlimited resources and even when you already have enough so the only thing i really have to say about greed is it happens to be like envy and gluttony combined in which case i feel like it's not really needed i feel like there could just be six deadly sins here like if envy plus gluttony

equals greed then like why is greed one of these options here you know also six goes into six six six i kind of like the six but but yeah what are you gonna do we gotta we gotta call a whole council and it's a whole thing you know you said what are you gonna do not a damn thing christine and that's called sloth okay so the other one is wrath or anger. And it's intense anger at someone that ultimately becomes hatred. And Christianity tells people to put aside their anger and their grudges and leave it to Jesus. Leave it to God. And the Bible even says, leave your anger to the wrath of God.

Vengeance is mine. And I guess this is a way to teach you like patience. Vengeance is mine. Jeez. I guess that means like god's got it under control it's like that's great but also i don't want that i want it in my control yeah um and so i guess it's to teach like self-control and patience and forgiveness and leave it to god and all that. It teaches faith, really, I suppose. Yeah. And the catechism says, if anger reaches the point of a deliberate desire to kill or seriously wound a neighbor,

it is gravely against charity. It is a mortal sin. Whoa. Wrath has also been interpreted as not just anger and hatred towards other people, but anger and hatred towards yourself. So just like how it's wrong to hate your neighbor who God created. And so if you hate him, you were hating something of God's image. How dare you?

It's also wrong to hate yourself who God also made. And this could be how dying by suicide is considered a cardinal sin okay because you are you know you're taking god's control out of his hands or something okay or something or something like you get it you get it enough i get it so then the final one is the ruler of the girlies pride um i'm sorry it's really envy but pride thinks she knows what's going on here so uh so pride is the overindulgence which sounds like gluttony against me folks okay the overindulgence in your own self-image okay uh while ignoring others okay so apparently you can love on yourself as long as you also love on others the same amount, but pride assumes that you only like yourself and nobody else that much.

And pride apparently never worries if it's hurting other people, how it's hurting other people. It's just solely focused on yourself and not being of the people. So there is a professor named Professor Clark at St. Patrick's Seminary and University who said that pride makes people take credit for God's work, which, okay, there's that information. The older Sin, her big sis who like ran off and maybe deconstructed her name's vainglory and vainglory is what makes us seek human acclaim so it's very similar to pride where pride is yours all about yourself but vainglory is you are you're doing it for others you want like recognition yes which uh apparently a modern version of that would be like constantly checking your phone to see if someone texted you or checking your social media to see if you got another follower oh like validate

external validation basically exactly i think pride is like i can be the only one validating myself and that's fine but like vainglory is others need to be there um so luckily so that's first of all those are the seven deadly sins but if you want to counteract them there are seven holy virtues okay now we're talking uh these also come from the fourth century interesting but they come from a poem by i hope i'm saying it right well he's not around to tell me uh or someone will be though somebody will or alias or aurelius aurelius clemens prudentius yeah aurelius okay uh marcus aurelius sure okay never mind i'm sorry i'm so sorry my brain just absolutely never retained whatever you just said. Okay. So it comes from a fourth century poem by him where the saying patience is a virtue comes from.

Oh, I don't have that, by the way. No, not even a little bit. I'm like, that's my biggest personality flaw, I think. Is it? Interesting. It's one of mine anyway. I know that it's something that I really struggle with and that people I know really struggle with my impatience. Interesting. Of the seven deadly sins, which one do you think is the one that you suffer from the most?

Oh, that's a great question, Em. And I was going to ask you, but I didn't even think about my own answer. Maybe pride, but not in like a way of like being vain, just like needing like validation. I don't know. What about you my belt. Not for like checking how many followers I have, but as someone who from my own childhood trauma and now I'm a people pleaser because I crave acknowledgement and recognition. I guess that. That would be mine too. But, and not, and again, not in a way of like, I think I'm all that,

but just like needing the external validation. But it's like, do you like me? Could you just tell me you like me? Yeah, tell me you like me. I think probably sloth is my biggest one. Yeah, that's a big one. of external validation but it's like do you like me could you just tell me you like me um i think probably sloth is my biggest one yeah that's a that's a big one and i think um a lot of people probably think they have that when in reality we're probably just burnt out but i think it's burnout i think it's like my adhd like the the motivation lack or lack thereof yeah uh i think i'm good on almost all the other ones

like i uh maybe some gluttony greed i don't really have wrath i don't really have pride i think i'm all right what about envy i have bouts of envy but they go away pretty quick same like i i catch myself sometimes feeling that way. And then I'm like, yeah, I think, I think in the era of like, I don't know, X insert, insert thing here, supporting insert thing here. Like, I think we try very hard to like be open-minded of like supporting, you know, wanting to make a a unit and and be helpful and bring each other up and so I think a lot of times that I personally have ever felt envy I it's very easy for me to stop and say you're being jealous and they're doing a really good

thing and you're really proud of them you just wish that you were matching them yeah exactly it's sort of like look at yourself for a minute and be like okay this is like an an internal problem to look to address yeah exactly but i would agree that um i i'm i'm able to talk myself out of it yeah i think i think uh yeah i think uh lust i don't totally have a problem with i'm i think i think sloth i think sloth um and you say pride is yours i think so i think so so i was gonna write and be like nope that's not yours yours is x y and z is being a piece of shit a deadly sin because that's the one you've got um okay so here are the well let me talk about the seven holy virtues for a second. Bibleinfo.com, first time I've ever desperately needed that website.

They call the seven holy virtues a cure to the seven deadly sins. A tincture, if you will. A tincture, a balm, as Allison might desperately say. To cure your woes. A cure that just might slip itself onto my uh apothecary cabinet so for envy do you know you actually said it earlier i don't know if you remember that but do you know what the cure for envy would be oh because i described envy earlier and you went oh well that's it's just not blank nice kind yeah yeah so kindness is it's pretty much this is like opposite day like what's the word that means not envy kindness um oh cool for gluttony do you know

what cures gluttony uh oh uh um what do you call it oh my god what is wrong with me not determination like um hold on hold on hold on hold on hold on if you say i'm gonna be so impressed uh not to like feed into your pride but um uh willpower maybe pretty much it's temperance temperance oh interesting um and then what cures greed is charity okay it also says or love so you know if you've got one of them you're fine uh gross guess what cures lust uh abstinence chastity yeah same diff for self-control all right yikes uh pride is cured by humility and then slothfulness is cured by diligence or zeal okay well apparently i got no zeal to me no i certainly don't either and then

wrath is the last one and patience is a virtue so patience cures wrath so maybe that's my opposite wrath do you do you have a quick temper i i did i i used to i've really worked on it so maybe that's my opposite, wrath. Do you have a quick temper? I did. I used to. I've really worked on it. So maybe that's my natural one, and I just have overridden it. Your God-given sin. My God-given wrath, yeah.

Fun side note, if you noticed, a lot of those virtues are popular names for daughters uh temperance oh charity patience chastity oh my god so really we need a whole list now of children named sins so if you've got a kid out there named i don't know. Sloth. Avarice. Sloth! Sloth is a great name. Maybe for your dog, but maybe for your sloth, but whatever. So historically, the seven sins were sometimes affiliated. Here's the part that you've been waiting for, Christine. Okay. Historically, the seven sins have been affiliated also with the seven planets of the time.

Oh. Or the seven luminaries so the known planets or celestial bodies of the time were the moon the sun mercury venus mars jupiter and then us earth okay that's it that's all they knew that's all i knew got it and at the time they thought earth was at the center of them and being affected by all the planets around it okay um theologists then thought that planets must be ruled by god because everything's ruled by god so uh god must have if we were being influenced by the planets around us that That was God's will. That was God's doing. And we are being sent good energy from God through these planets. He's using these planets as a work, I suppose, and sending us good energy or good influence through the planets. It's like old-timey astrology. Yeah, something like that.

But religious themed. Okay. Yes, it's got a good ring to it but certainly a religious theme to the planets which i never thought i'd say but somewhere neil degrasse tyson's like running off a cliff yeah so so god is able to influence the planets in a good way demons however they, however, they could not control planets and make them do things that were evil, but they could potentially intercept God's good energy from the planets. Oh boy.

And once they intercepted, the demons could morph that good energy into bad energy before it reached God's people on Earth. Okay, wow. So either way, good or bad energy is coming from the sky i suppose mercury and retrograde is still like lucifer himself i can confirm that that's true yeah okay so even further one theologist thought that demons could not so the theory is that oh well they can't make planets bad like God can make planets do good things, but they can at least morph the energy on its way to Earth. But there was one theologist who thought, no, no, demons can manipulate planets. And on top of that, they can take form as planets.

Demons can turn into planets. Cool. And by morphing into planets, I don't know if they're like making the real ones disappear and they're showing up as like Saturn or maybe Saturn never existed and they're actually demons. I don't know how it totally works, but basically sometimes the planets are demons themselves.

Or I don't know how it totally works, but basically sometimes the planets are demons themselves. And, uh, they're, the reason they would do that is because they're tricking people who would be worshiping God and praising the planets and all this, that they would accidentally be worshiping demons disguised as planets. Yeah.

And this is like, I feel like I'm talking to someone who's high and also a conspiracy theorist and also like kind of maybe slurring their words or something like this none of this feels logical i'm aware because i'm like no no the demons turn into planets and then you worship them it feels like you the part that you don't get is that Jupiter is a demon and now you're worshiping him. Surprise. This is actually QAnon part four. Oh my God.

It sounds like it. And Hillary Clinton is Neptune or something. And so basically these demons can trick you into accidentally worshiping them by if you're like looking at the stars and, you know, all that good stuff. So Christians also use this thinking when talking about religions with multiple gods. So if you were someone who believed in multiple gods, sometimes those gods were associated with planets and moons. So Christians would try to warn these people that if you're worshiping planets and moons thinking they're your gods uh you might actually be praising demons okay so once again they are just dipping their little toes in places no one invited them correct um and even further when talking about the concept of moon phases and how they they could affect our minds like you know

the the tides and the planets and everything affect our bodies which if you're into astrology people still you know follow that mindset um but just even further with this whole like q anon level belief system um if you think that demons are actually planets if you believe that like moon phases and all that are affecting your your system demons could be masquerading as planets especially during moon phases when you are most susceptible um because apparently on uh during moon phases your brain is the most moist aka most susceptible to their will or their energy in the world i don't even know where this logic has taken us, but it's not a sane path, that's for sure. It's nowhere good.

So in this thinking, specific demons became associated with specific planets that they would alter during moon phases and they could influence you the most during those times. Whoa. And soon, because there were seven demons who got associated with seven planets, the seven deadly sins just kind of tagged along. And now each planet had a different sin and demon. Oh, my God. I don't know. I don't know why those were the big two. And they could influence planets to confuse and tempt us to sin. And in the 16th century, this guy named Peter Binsfield, who was a bishop and a theologian, he assigned a demon to each sin because he was like, well, if there are demons assigned to the planets and we can assign the sins to planets we should assign the sins to the demons so this peter binsfield guy

in the 16th century said okay we are going to assign a demon to each sin and those demons became the seven princes of hell oh here we go so now i would like to tell you the demons and their associated sin hell yeah would you like to guess oh sure and also let's remember that tiktok sound that went around for a while yes lucifer or something like that yeah yeah so use that however you need and you'll at least have six of the seven oh i don't know any of them i know beelzebub. Yeah, yeah. So use that however you need, and you'll at least have six of the seven. Oh, I don't know any of them. I know Beelzebub, Lucifer, and the one you said. That's all.

Asmodeus. Oh my god, yeah, I don't know. So Asmodeus is lust. Okay. Sexy, by the way. I get it. I'm sure, I wish I knew the song so I could do it in order as modius is lust santanus is wrath beelzebub is gluttony uh then there's leviathan which is envy

mammon which is uh greed belphegor which I'm guessing is the same as like belphazar or something okay belphegor okay is sloth and then lucifer who i for some reason lucifer is number one in my mind which makes sense because he's associated with pride the number one sin a fallen angel um interesting i always think satan and lucifer are the same person Because he's associated with pride, the number one sin. Fallen angel. Interesting. I always think Satan and Lucifer are the same person. I always do, though. I know it's not right. I know it's not right.

I can't help it. So anyway, Peter was a well-known witch hunter and the guy who created the system and named everyone. He was a well-known witch hunter in the 1500s. So, of course, demons were like fresh on his little brain and satan and beelzebub were at the time getting very popular because in the 1500s where peter was he was in germany in the 1500s europe uh this was when witch hunts began erupting and satan and beelzebub were two of the main demons often uh attached to witchcraft and unholy sabbaths oh so and then what did he so that'd be gluttony and satan was wrath i don't know if there was a meaning to that but because he was probably

hearing those two names all the time he was very quick to drag them into his little system um oh i think there is a reason to it actually because i literally fucking wrote it down okay so could be why sorry i did these notes at two in the morning um so gluttony and wrath are satan and beelzebub and uh they played roles in witch accusations because witches were often angry at someone in town. There was always like they were after a man or they were after somebody or they hated the town or they wanted to curse somebody. So it makes sense why wrath was one of the main sins associated with witchcraft. And then Sabbaths often involved excessive feasts and that would be gluttony. Oh, that makes sense.

So it would make sense that those two sins are the witchcraft sins and you would name them after the witchcraft demons that keep getting mentioned. Sure, why not? Anyway, by the way, speaking of Sabbaths, they were excessive feasts often including flesh and blood. It was like the perversion of the eucharist but this is a note to say that witches just i have wanted to cover witchcraft in general um as its own episode um and really the topic i wanted to do was like misconceptions about witchcraft and like then i want to debunk all of it. Like, why do witches wear a hat? Why do witches have a broom? And then I wanted to debunk the historical traces of it.

But a lot of it was, a lot of roots of all of those stereotypes were actually rooted in anti-Semitism. Right. And I thought the episode episode maybe if people still think it's an important episode for me to do i am open to doing it but i thought more like oh that sounds like that i wanted that episode to be really fun and it turned into like a mega bummer yeah um so i just i tabled it but if anyone is interested i can still definitely cover it still important information um but which is indulging in

these feasts of flesh and blood is one of those things that comes from blood libel which was used to persecute jewish people um so just wanted to i don't know give that a shout out that if you're hearing the the if you're hearing what uh if you're hearing like you know the story like even in hocus pocus or any of like the movies that we watch like witches like come and eat little children right it is all rooted in some pretty dark shit yeah um so just wanted to mention it while it was like somewhat that's an interesting point yeah i think it's definitely a good thing to mention so anyway to get back to the seven sins they pop up a lot in literature like the Canterbury Tales, which was my 10th grade nemesis.

I hated the Canterbury Tales. It also came up in the Divine Comedy, which is a poem or it's a trilogy from 1321. And part of the Divine Comedy is Dante's Inferno, which I covered the circles of hell again at episode 65. I would like to, since it was episode 65, I'm thinking about doing a redo on that because really I should, I would like to do one, a three-parter of the,

of Dante's Inferno where there was the Inferno, the purgatory and the paradise or something. And it was, I would like to just cover the Divine Comedy in general because I'm sure that would be super interesting to hear it all back to back. But those are two of the main places where you'll hear about the Seven Deadly Sins. And there is, I mean, I was just going to say there's a bunch of other references that that mention it but those are the two main ones Canterbury Tales and The Divine Comedy but anyway that's the Seven Deadly Sins whoa what a trip dude I'm sorry I didn't talk about demons more but like

you know me too but you know I always feel that way it doesn't matter how much you talk about them i'd still like to talk about them more well here's uh another thing is i wanted to do more of a deep dive on why those seven demons were selected um as like you know the owner of that certain sin or whatever um but i was like i don't want to burn out material and like i could do like i could do a whole episode on each of those demons so and for the ones like lucifer and satan i'm sure i would like multi-part for you to do just a lucifer episode i mean come on that's that's gonna be a lot to take in. Oh, did you hear that? He just started barking when I said Lucifer episode. He's like, that's me.

He's singing the song. Song to Lucifer. Lucifer. That's him. But yeah, so eventually I would like to cover each of the demons on their own. So I'm just kind of giving you like a little taste of them today. Like a taste of frenzy, you know. Yeah.

A touch of frenzy. A touch of frenzy you know yeah a touch of frenzy a touch of frenzy a tincture of frenzy tincture that was what i was trying to think of anyway that's uh the seven deadly sins good job m shank you all right um i have a doozy for you today. This is the story of Alice and Gerald Uden. Uden. All right. I'm not going to tell you any more because I don't want to spoil anything. Okay. I don't know a single thing.

So even if you spoiled something, why? Oh, I didn't either until I thought you were still talking. I didn't want to interrupt you. Thank you. You stopped mid-sentence, so I wanted to let you continue. You made a face like, oh, if I say one thing, you'll just know everything, and I don't want to let the cat out of the bag. Nope. I just was saying I also didn't know about this before, so this will probably be new to a lot of us.

The story begins in 1976 when 37-year-old Alice Prunty— Okay, so you might—I don't know if you'll need the gargoyles but it might be helpful just to like keep them on it because there are a lot of like partners that change like people you know change relationships and that kind of thing I'm on it they are all sitting here looking pretty we're ready first first up is Alice she's 37 years old and her name's Alice Prunty she was divorced three times and she had five children. And in the 70s, as you can imagine, this was a hard position to be in with divorce not being so common and being a single parent not being as common or at least not as acceptable in society. And so, you know, she was having a hard time.

society. And so, you know, she was having a hard time. So she decided to move to a new state where she could have a clean slate, a fresh start, and the gossip, the reputation wouldn't follow her there. Got it. So she decided to move and she took her kids with her. She thought maybe we could, you know, start fresh, get a comfortable life going for the five kids um and she moved to wyoming which i can imagine being uh you know a a state where you could probably start fresh especially in the 70s so she moves to wyoming and she moves next door to this guy named gerald uden okay and gerald is immediately taken by Alice, like just so enthralled by her. And he himself was also three times divorced. So they had that in common. Heyo.

And he had two sons in his previous marriage to a woman named Virginia. So now you've got Gerald and his ex is Virginia. And his two kids are named Richard and Reagan. Hang on, I'm getting the others out. Hang on. Okay, Richard and Reagan. They're the two little boys that he had from a previous marriage. And Gerald didn't have them by birth. They're not, Richard and Reagan weren't his children by birth, but he had adopted them when he was married to their mother, Virginia. So Gerald had once been deeply in love with Virginia, kind of the way he's deeply in love now with Alice. And back when he was in love with Virginia, you know, he saw her as a tough woman, just like Alice. She liked guns and target shooting, which was something he was passionate about.

And he fell in love with her outdoorsy sort of like Wild West spirit. And he loved having the boys around to teach them about shooting, fishing, camping. And he and the boys would rehabilitate orphan ducklings. Shut up. That's so cute. And they would eat dinner as a family every night. And he basically fell as in love with having sons as he did with Virginia herself. Within three months of meeting, they were engaged. But first, Virginia wanted Gerald to adopt her sons so that she could be allegedly, is what she said, fully independent from their father and this way if he adopted them as his

own kids then she wouldn't have to be associated with their father anymore and so he was thrilled he signed the adoption paperwork as soon as the lawyers gave gave it to him uh but pretty seemingly uh it seemed random it seemed very sudden virginia just up and left oh she wanted a divorce from gerald and he said he couldn't imagine why um everything seemed to be going well she took a mysterious trip to philadelphia with the two boys and when they returned they all seemed deeply unhappy so gerald starts wondering like what happened in Philly? Like was there another man in the picture? And she was unhappy now with their home life. But of course he couldn't stop her. So she left and officially divided their things and moved away with the kids.

And he agreed to pay child support for the boys, but quietly he was wondering maybe this was just a scheme to get a more reliable man on the hook for child support. Now he's the legal father of these children, so now he owes child support. Maybe that was the whole plot all along, like he's trying to get to the bottom of it. And at this point he's paying nearly double what her ex had been paying. Gotcha. But also that seemed kind of far-fetched, like what a wild plan to concoct and, you know, get the children married. It just seemed like also a little far-fetched. So he wasn't sure.

But that's where they left things. Gerald, for what it's worth, saw the boys whenever he could, but it never really felt the same. So when Alice stepped into the picture and moved in next door with her children, Gerald was like, oh my gosh, finally I get another chance to be a provider, a father, a husband. And he was excited to start anew with Alice. They met because Alice needed electrical work done on her new trailer. And the trailer park manager introduced Gerald as their local handyman. And pretty immediately, Gerald saved the day. Alice was pretty intrigued by him, and the two of them started a romance. There was something to be said for their history. They both had been divorced three times. They both had kind of tumultuous past relationships, and so they felt they could understand and confide in one another in the ways that, you know, other people just wouldn't understand.

As for Alice's previous husband, so she had one. The first husband was a cop in Illinois, and her second husband was a World War II veteran who had died of alcoholism related complications. He left behind a lot of debt, and so the widows and orphans pension for World War II vet families wasn't enough to support Alice and the kids, so she basically was working as anything she could, a bartender, a nurse, a bus driver, just trying to pay the bills. And she essentially had created this life where she was the type of woman who would do anything for her family. And Gerald was just smitten with this, with her, with her family. And within five months of meeting, they were married.

And pretty soon after that, they bought a new farm together where Alice could really start fresh and start a new life. Eventually, Alice told Gerald about her third husband. this guy's name was ron and he was a vietnam veteran who had been discharged from the army for mental health issues and alice actually had met him uh working as a nurse in a psychiatric ward and he was her patient so she said she knew it was wrong but she ran off with him uh they had this like whirlwind romance they got married and of course as many of these too good to be true stories turn out it uh was too good to be true and pretty quickly he began physically abusing her he told her he had killed children in Vietnam and he would do the same to her.

Oh my God. Yeah. Wow. Holy shit. You know, as we know now, there was a whole lot of undiagnosed, untreated PTSD going on with a lot of these veterans. And that doesn't obviously excuse that.

And, you know know killing children is a war crime so you know that's besides the point but you know just putting context here so gerald was happy that she confided in him and she was he was even more happy that she had fled this abusive relationship and moved across the country joined him him, found finally her true love. Eventually, Alice's adoptive parents, Sam and Vivian Barber, moved a trailer onto the Uden's farm, and they were all one big happy family. But there were two people conspicuously missing from this arrangement. And those people were the little boys they were richard and reagan

were not uh welcome on the property so gerald had unrestricted rights to see the boys and he wanted to see them but alice wasn't on board with this she was like they're not really your children they're not yikes they're not you know part of this family um they belong to your ex like get them out of here essentially she acted strange when the kids were around and she pressured Gerald to cut his visits with the boys shorter and shorter and that along with Virginia's kind of virginia was the ex the mother of the boys her kind of job hopping and unreliable housing meant gerald rarely saw his sons if he this is big yikes if he ran into them in public with alice he would pretend not to know them oh my god and they were kids and he real and like not that this matters like he should as their father should

be doing it either way but he also really loved them like it sounded like you gave like you were mentioning that he like really is so bonded with these kids yes exactly and now he's just totally 180 and like pretending he doesn't know who they are i mean it's terrible. So Virginia, the mom of the boys, his ex, moved the boys back to Pennsylvania for a time, but they got sick pretty often. And there was always some mysterious issue with Gerald's insurance anytime they needed it. And at this point, Alice is getting pissed off at Virginia, the ex, and is saying like, she's interfering in our lives. And so she starts sending these aggressive letters about the insurance asking for more and the letters that were asking for more child support. She starts writing back these like aggressive, cruel letters to Virginia.

She says, quote, If you get the idea that I don't like you, you're very correct. I have no use for any woman that does not have the mind guts and the backbone to stand on her own two feet and take care of herself and her kids by herself without raping some poor man's pocket any woman that can't do that is a worthless piece of garbage oh my god yeah I don't like her currently. Yeah, it's bad news. Does it change? Well, I mean, I don't care who wrote that. It's not nice.

I don't want to be around. No, I mean, like, do I eventually like this person or am I allowed to just, like, really judge? Well, I don't know. I mean, do you like, I don't like someone who talks like that, but I don't know. I didn't, I didn't know if we were going to find out, like, she wrote that by force or something. I'm giving no spoilers. Okay. Okay. So she writes this nasty, no, she wrote these.

Okay. Okay. That's what I needed to know. She wrote them. She didn't need, wasn't forced to write them. So it went on like that, calling Virginia virginia quote worthless trash and a con artist and she said virginia must have really worked to entrap gerald who apparently quote doesn't even like kids which like this is not true but anyway the letter finally ended with alice referencing a recent power plant crisis near where virgin lived. And she said, quote, I was hoping the power plant would explode and take you with it. Holy shit.

It's really a shame it didn't. So like bullying to the nth degree via letter. True. But like also the dumbest way to do it because now we have everything on fire. It's all on paper. It's just so stupid. Okay. So Virginia's reply letter to that is lost but in the next letter that alice sent back to virginia she did take some of it back so she kind of softened and she said gerald never said he

didn't like kids she just assumed he didn't because he never visited the boys which is like isn't that your fault but whatever right yeah she also asked him and found out that he avoided his sons because he thought alice wanted him to so she kind of admitted to that saying like i know i've gotten in the way but she still berated virginia as a mother still called her a leech among other things which is like okay so you you step back on some things but and then you're like but anyway you're still a leech so that part's true it's like this person's got a case of wrath i think a case of wrath on her hands so court documents showed that gerald was faithfully paying his child support but uh but the problem was virginia was failing to provide good forwarding addresses

wherever she moved so she didn't get all of the checks. So there was a little bit of issue with like the mail getting to her, the checks getting to her. In 1980, she hauled the boys, Richard, aged 11, and Reagan, age 9, back to Wyoming to be closer to their dad and to clear up any further child support payment issues. and so they're finally like moving back to the area she wants them to be closer in proximity wise and relationship wise and she wants to make sure that these child support payments are coming through without any hiccups so she moves back to wyoming only a few months later however, Virginia and both boys were reported missing by her mother. Oh, God.

Okay. So we're going to September 13th, 1980. This is shortly after she moved to Wyoming with the boys. And Virginia's mother says, they're gone. I don't know where they are. And Virginia's mother says they're gone. I don't know where they are. So when they questioned Gerald, he told the sheriff that Virginia was supposed to meet him with both kids so they could go on a bird hunting trip, but they never showed. And the report, like I said, had come in from Virginia's mother, whose name was Claire, and she pretty immediately said, I think Gerald, her ex, had something to do with this. I think he has something to do with the reason they've disappeared. So investigators thought at first, you know, he was acting a little bit suspicious, mostly because when he found out that Claire,

Virginia's mother, was the one who was kind of pointing fingers of suspicion at him. He got really agitated and mad and really upset. And he told them they had no case, which seemed like a weird thing to say about his own sons being missing, but whatever. So he says that you have no case. You know, I have I have nothing to do with this. And essentially, he they couldn't find anything. They couldn't find anything on him whatsoever. They couldn't find any leads to arrest him. They questioned him and had to let him go.

Eight days after Virginia's disappearance, her mom got a letter in the mail that said, Mom, sorry I have worried you i am in trouble the boys are okay cover for me say i am in california will write when i can virginia this girl loves oh wait that was alice who was writing letters last time i was gonna say man this girl loves to just write down all proof on paper, huh? No. So this letter came to Virginia's mom and it was signed Virginia, her daughter. But this is a red flag because apparently Virginia, when she wrote to her mom, always signed her letters Gin, G-I-N. And she had sent hundreds of letters to her mother, had never once written out Virginia.

So her mother was like, this is suspicious. This isn't my daughter. She also had apparently fled to California. This is the story where she had no connections with five dollars of gas in her car and had left, as her mother found out, one thousand dollars back home in a jar. And her mom was like, she wouldn't have left $1,000 of cash if she took the boys and moved somewhere. So I know that's not the case. Yeah. Virginia had also never been in any kind of serious trouble. And so when she turned this letter into police, it led nowhere because of course it was fake. Then another letter came,

also forged. This time, Virginia said she was in Pennsylvania with friends, that she had gotten some money, which is why she was in trouble. And at first she was as vague as last time. And she told her mom she was purposefully concealing her location. Don't worry, though. Everything's fine. Signed, Virginia. Don't worry about me, mom. I'm good.

Yeah, don't worry. I'm fine. Everything that needs an explanation is not going to get one. Has no explanation. And that should be enough for you. So after the second forged letter, they're kind of turning up no luck until they stumble upon Virginia's car on the side of a road covered in blood. This is an important clue, obviously, but aside from, you know, signaling that something bad might've happened to her, it was a dead end. There was just nothing they could take from this. There was no evidence on the car or anything? Well well at the time there was no such thing as dna

evidence you know so it just nothing they could figure out eventually the sheriff just had to let the case go cold which obviously was devastating for virginia's mom claire who at this point is missing her daughter and her grandkids and has absolutely no clue where they are but thinks she knows who's responsible but there's just absolutely nothing they can do so the case goes cold and it is cold for years oh my god wow that is 14 years to be specific holy crap okay now we're fast forwarding to 1994 and alice's son approaches police and he says i have something to get off my chest. And they're like, OK, what is it? He says, when I was a teenager, I heard my mom confess to a murder.

And they're like, OK, we're listening. You know, turns out it was not the murder of Virginia and her sons. Get out. It was the murder of her ex-husband, Ron, the abusive Vietnam veteran. Ugh. Well, okay. So now there's a whole, this has to at least open the door for them to wonder about her later. It does.

Ding, ding, ding. Good call. So this is the story. Okay. So basically once her son, back in the day, was a teenager and he was with his mom when she got a little drunk, got a little emotional, started spilling some secrets. She admitted that Ron, his stepfather, his former stepfather, had been abusive toward her she was scared of him so one night she went into his room while he slept and shot him in his bed she said she then dumped his body she put him in a barrel rolled it to her car and then dumped his body down a mine shaft and fled town and never reported this to anyone and no one had ever come looking for for him so

that's wild because i feel like at some point they're gonna find a dead body recognize who it was and then see if he was married well they put it put him down a mine shaft and no one's oh right going down there it's abandoned it was an abandoned gold mine so there was just no reason to be in there um and so people just thought well he must have just gone off the grid you know. And police looked into this. They saw that this guy, Ron, had no paper trail. And they were like, OK, yeah, we can confirm he's probably dead. And so the kind of the tip you're sending in, you know, you're on to something here. So Alice had filed for divorce, claiming abandonment instead of, you know, reporting this death to the police.

And when he obviously failed to show up at the court date, she got this divorce request. No questions asked. So police jumped on the case, but unfortunately they couldn't turn up anything solid. As for the mine, they went to the mine and it was way too dangerous. They needed like much more money and more reinforcements to be able to go down there safely and look. So once again, they just had to walk away. And so the case went cold for another 11 years. What? Can you imagine getting the courage to finally like I know out your mom like that. And then now you just live for over 10 years wondering if the

police are ever going to. Imagine every day you're like, does she know that I told police? Yeah. Oh, gosh, that would be a terrifying thought. I can't. I would be I would be so scared every time. And you'd probably be like, was it worth it? Because nothing even came of it. Like, yeah, I don't even go anywhere. Oh, boy. Yeah, that's a really scary position to be in.

So it took another 11 years. But in April of 2013, finally, they were able to properly search the mine and they discovered a skeleton. They were able to track down Ron's daughter and she gave her DNA evidence and they were able to confirm that, yes, this was a skeleton of Ron. And just as Alice's son had described, they found this body in the mine shaft and there was a bullet wound in the skull. So they bring Alice in to be charged with his murder. And she resisted at first, but she finally broke down and admitted she had done it. But now she's saying, well, it was self-defense. and admitted she had done it. But now she's saying, well, it was self-defense. And she said one night, yeah, she changed the whole story. She says one night Ron, quote, went berserk and was going to hurt her baby.

So she shot him in self-defense. But the story she had told her son was that she just took the gun and walked in while he was sleeping and shot him. So, you know, just a different version of events. Meanwhile, Gerald hears that Alice, by the way, he's now 74 years old. Oh, my God. They're still together. So Gerald hears that his beloved 74-year-old wife, Alice, has been arrested. Police call him and say, hey, we've taken your wife in for something that happened in Wyoming. Yeah, something pretty big.

Yep, just a little something or other, like a little dab of something. And he just couldn't bear the thought of his beloved wife taking the fall for a murder that he committed. So he went into the police station. And he said, I know you've arrested Alice for the murder that he committed. So he went into the police station and he said, I know you've arrested Alice for the murder of Virginia and her two sons, but it was me.

I did it. What? He thought Alice had been arrested for the murder of Virginia and the two boys. He didn't know she was arrested for the murder of her ex-husband. Shut up.

So wait, that sounds like a, wait, so if all that's true, that sounds like a movie where like two that's true that sounds like a movie where like two people got married not knowing that they both had already killed their own spouses before finding each other or in the middle of finding each other so he knew that alice had killed her ex but it you know he didn't think that this arrest he he thought the police basically framed it in a way to kind of trick him. They basically framed it as like, we've arrested your wife for something pretty bad and you need to come in and like, blah, blah, blah. And so he thinks, oh, my God, they've arrested her for the thing I did, which means they either found a body or they found some evidence. So he goes in

and he's like, no, no, it wasn't her. It was me. And they're like, interesting. We didn't even bring up the murder of Virginia and your two sons. But if you're here to offer the information, we'll take it. So, oh my God, what a trip. So he goes in, he thinks, oh my gosh what a trip so he goes in he thinks oh my gosh she's been arrested for this uh they don't tell him otherwise to be clear they're like you can believe whatever you want and uh lucky for them he did because he came in and immediately confessed and uh this is the story of what what actually happened to Virginia and Gerald's two sons. So, oh boy, here we go. He had invited Virginia and the boys out bird hunting with him. So that part was true. And the boys were very excited. They showed up and they got in the car they drove out a ways and richard and reagan jumped out of the car when they arrived were playing where they parked on a lonely stretch

of rural road in wyoming uh gerald fired the gun a few times to make sure it was clean and wouldn't jam then he walked right up to virginia put the barrel behind her head and shot her oh my god she died instantly okay then he approached richard who had heard the shot but was facing away and didn't know that the last one had been at his mother so gerald walked right up to his son richard put the barrel behind his ear and shot him and killed him tragically reagan did see this happen and tried to run but unfortunately he tripped and gerald calmly approached him and shot him behind the ear as well oh my god he essentially killed his entire family in less than one minute uh the bullets were small and stayed in their heads, so there wasn't too much blood.

But he loaded the three bodies into his vehicle and drove away, and he figured there was no way to pin anything on him. And when he was brought in for questioning many, many years ago, he basically just kept repeating the same story that Virginia and her sons never showed up for their get-together, so he has no idea where they are. And that was it and when they found out you know why when i asked why would you do this your own sons he basically said i i got no pleasure out of it which is like do you think this like this wasn't that easy for me like come on what and uh apparently he saved fourteen thousand dollars in child in child support costs and that was that was oh well i'm sure that was uh that was the only reason yeah fourteen thousand dollars yep wow like it's one of those things from like at least a million dollars to kill your family which is like such an which yeah backwards way of thinking but like you hear 14 000 you're like it really was

basically for free like you just wanted to it just at that point out of the picture yeah like you were just so mildly inconvenienced exactly it was an inconvenience that's the best way to put it it was literally just an inconvenience oh my god oh my. Oh, my God. I really I didn't think it was going to be him. This this whole story, because he really you very well told me in the beginning how much he loved his boys. I know. And it's like so fucked up because he adopted them immediately, like was just like took them out, like loved seeing them. It's just so fucking twisted i don't know i don't know but he walked right in there and he said i know you've arrested alice for the murder of virginia but she didn't do it i did and police are like stunned because

they thought they would need to do a little more tweaking to get him to like confess but he immediately confesses and he tells them like i said i didn't get any pleasure out of doing it none but it did stop the child support oh my god what kind of sicko but also like what like double jackpot for the police that day like at least they got two murders two of them figured out two of them and they just walked in and told him i so like wow it's so fucked up and you know now they've got him whether he likes it or not so on november 1st 2013 gerald pleaded guilty uh in trial for the grizzly killing a few months later alice went on trial for ron's death gerald was found guilty and sentenced to life in prison and Alice was found guilty of second degree murder so

basically um lack of premeditation because even though she used self-defense as her story the jury believed that uh Ron was in bed when he was killed that he was sleeping so it's sort of like a mix of you know she didn't plan the murder but also and he had been abusing her but also it wasn't like in self-defense in the moment if that makes sense right so ultimately Alice was also sentenced to life in prison and only a few months after her sentencing she died in prison in her 70s suddenly Gerald rings up his lawyers and he says, you know, now that I no longer have to protect my wife, I actually want to admit that I never hurt anyone. Oh. Oh.

Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. That's oddly convenient. So weirdly convenient. He said, in fact, Alice had shot and killed Virginia and the boys, and he only took the fall to protect her. In fact, Alice had shot and killed Virginia and the boys, and he only took the fall to protect her. Now that she was free, a.k.a. dead, he could finally tell the truth.

And so the courts were like, nah, man, like you literally walked in and said you shot your own sons. And now you're like, never mind. It wasn't me. It was my dead wife. Like likely story. So, you know, whether it's true or not, I don't know. I mean, it seems like both these people were capable of shooting a gun at someone else so i don't i don't know if it wasn't him i feel so bad for him but also if it was him which i'm pretty sure it was but if it wasn't him why are you covering up for the woman who shot your own kids like exactly i don't have any sorry for that because it's like you should fine stay in prison you literally let their grandmother like live the rest of her days without knowing what happened to her grandkids because you wanted to protect your wife if they if she was the one

who shot them in the head i don't know something's twisted whether whether he did it or not there's something like really twisted going on i'm pretty sure he's just trying to get out of it. But I also I mean, I don't I'm not an expert, but that would be my gut, my hunch. Well, that was also the court's gut and hunch. So they were like, nah, we're going to keep you where you are. So, you know, still in prison, he continues to serve his life sentence in the Wyoming State Penitentiary. And he maintains his innocence to this day, which has now been 43 years since the crime and he says he did it all to protect alice which again like if alice murdered your entire family

explain yourself then like i'm sorry you know you yeah it's not a very good answer right like you loved her so much that you didn't care that she shot your nine year old son. Like what? It's beyond me. It's beyond me. Also for the detail he was able to provide and everything. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, they never found the bodies. So, you know.

Who knows? But apparently the daughter, Alice's daughter, who was actually interviewed in an episode of Snapped I watched about this story, said that when she was younger, she remembers her stepdad, Gerald, making an offhanded comment about you got to have pigs around to take care of the body. Ew. And they lived on a farm and they had pigs. Oh, my God. And they had pigs. Oh, my God.

So whether he did it or not, he and Alice both clearly knew about it. And at least according to her. And, you know, I think they probably both knew about each other's crimes. You know, she told him about killing her ex and throwing him in a mineshaft. she told him about killing her ex and throwing him in a mineshaft and he what if he shot the kids and virginia i'm pretty sure she knew about it too yeah they just held each other's secret they both covered for each other uh you know it's it's really twisted either way and the way they described it uh in the episode of snap too it was this one guy who's an author i don't know if he's has a medical degree so i don't i don't think that this is like an official diagnosis but either him or one of the investigators said you know i think this was a narcissist and a sociopath got married and both

had just like these really dark pasts that they were just able to happily cover up for one another that was yeah assessment of the situation oh my god and also the pig comment really gets me because if he said that before he ever technically hurt somebody oh this was after oh after after they disappeared gotcha i was going to say like has he done this before okay that makes sense interesting you mentioned that because there is another theory that uh that the that ron the ex-husband was not alice's only victim one of the theories goes that her second husband who died of uh alcohol related uh problems was maybe poisoned and that is one of the theories. And there's no, you know, set in stone proof for that proof of that. But the daughter who was interviewed said she believes that her mother killed her father, who who was that husband.

And she she thinks that she poisoned him because apparently, you know, the autopsy results are conclusive with poisoning. And they actually got a warrant to dig up the body. And they actually were going to do testing on it to see if it contained traces of poison. But the body had been embalmed. And so they weren't able to, like, trace anything. Wow. But investigators believe that it's possible that she also murdered her other husband so you know it's just like a big shit show of a family right there yeah this is i just

hmm yeah it's it's just like when you wonder how many times in my life have i walked past a murderer it's like can you imagine if you not only walk past murderer but you're a murderer and you marry someone who will become a murderer and it just sounds it totally sounds like a show you're right like it just sounds like a law and order like plot twist or something one of those dark comedies where people like have a secret but then they find out their partner also has a secret and now they have to hide from the cops and i don't know it's yeah yeah yeah yeah well people have presented twisted takes on the couple um calling them crimes of passion and love like what get out of here with that nonsense i'm sorry i mean think about virginia's mom claire who

unfortunately died in her 90s but still never saw the case solved and even though she knew gerald had something to do with it she never got to see him sent to prison um and you know there's no love there uh just fucking twisted just whole nightmares yeah so that's the story the end ah well certainly a plot twist i really didn't did not see uh that coming i thought it was all going to be alice all all all out alice and then really really did a number on me there christine with that storytelling just walked in and said no it wasn't her and they're like what wasn't her yeah how convenient that they hadn't let too much information out i know pride him more because then like he'd have just gotten away with it yep exactly and he yep could have gotten away with it wow well good storytelling christine thank you i uh

you know i was framing the whole story in terms of the sins. And I was like, oh, well that's, that's greedy. That's prideful. You're going to look at everything through that lens now. Yeah.

And then at the end you said crime of passion. I was like, and there's lust. I got them all. We nailed it. I had a really gross warped bingo game to play. Bingo card. Yep.

Oy. Well, thank you everyone for listening. we do we have our after chat we gotta go yeah we actually have two after chats we gotta do which uh i'm excited about so i get to talk to you twice oh my god it's your it's your dream come true i really do love talking to you in the after chats because we finally get to talk about something that isn't true crime and paranormal and like no it's like people can tell that we actually do talk outside of that and by the way we could talk for the rest of eternity which is why we're we are recording these because um we might as well you know utilize some of it to to bring our patrons in on in on our bullshit conversations but sometimes they're not bullshit well that one time i remember

we i was trying to think of that i think i want to go pull that up we did a swedish hand clap game together in one of the after chats and i sang the entirety of mary mack and then in the episode after that we discussed all the pitfalls of mental illness so you know they really range from like they're really chaotic to serious if we had a podcast that wasn't about true crime, we would definitely never run out of material. What a mess it would be. What a fun mess, though. It would be fun. Anyway, I'll see you over there, I guess.

And if you would like to go listen, please join Patreon and check it out. We'll see you there. And that's why we drink. Clink.