And That's Why We Drink - E329 Sad Happy Hour and Night Nuts

Episode Date: May 28, 2023

It's episode 329 and there's nothing left to do but work! Tune in to hear some behind the scenes water cooler talk about the origin of our new Sad Happy Hour "business" meeting (so Eva doesn't bum us out right before recording). We've also got some wild, creepy tales for you this week, starting out with Em's deep dive into the world of Doppelgängers. Then Christine covers the case of the Red Barn murder, the death of Maria Marten and her step mother's strange dreams. And lastly, you won't want to miss Em having an existential crisis seeing a picture of a mole for the first time? ...and that's why we drink!

hi uh i don't know what to i mean i i'm nothing nothing's going on we just had a a long business meeting before this. And I'm just poor Eva. Every time we record, he was like, I just have a couple of things to go over. And then Em and I act like surly teenagers the whole time. And we're like, it's probably just me. But we're like, fine, whatever.

You know, we're just kind of like, you know, we're we're just I don't know. I don't know the right word, but it's like she was the messenger. And we're like just over all this. The oftentimes not great news she's bringing is not bad stuff. It's just like complications and logistics. And Em and I are sitting here like, meh, we don't want to deal with this right now. So we've developed a new procedure. Yeah.

a new procedure yeah we're now gonna have a sad happy hour once a week where instead of instead of eva telling us things right before we record she's gonna just have one meeting a week where she tells us all the stuff that like could possibly bum us out uh and we can kind of like troubleshoot and not not feel the looming pressure of having to record right afterwards so we're we're developing new strategies listen you learn you grow you evolve i'm excited to try it i like that we're calling it sad happy hour and it's me too and i was telling them i just got a shirt that says sad girls club and i'm so excited to wear this to our first inaugural happy sad hour and by the way anyone who is like you know reading into things it's like they're not really bad things. They're just us being babies about not wanting to hear about logistics.

It's just children. We're just children. We're just small children and we can't regulate our emotions. Or like poor Eva has been. And also, you know, we have another person that works with us, Katie, who's, you know, is also very. Does a lot of admin and logistics and smart stuff. Who's incredibly helpful. But they all, you know is does a lot of admin and logistics and smart stuff who's incredibly helpful but they all you know talk to venues before we ever go and so they're always telling

us like the behind the scenes stuff of how projectors work yeah they're like a slight problem like the projector shattered into a million pieces that did not happen anywhere i'm just trying to give an example but don't worry they're fixing it and emma and i are like helpless like what do we do like sad happy hour is going to be reserved for the times where eva kind of tells us like oh um something bad almost happened but now something good's happening but don't worry but it always it always she does send us through like a roller coaster you know yeah eva just texted by the way and said the projector shattering literally did happen in san diego but to be fair we were all there so it wasn't like you had to break the news we were all really uh watching it happen in in real time um that did happen yes but but uh we won't name names of

where and they did figure it out actually wait i think they i think everyone there knew because we were like sorry this show's an hour late. The projector fell off the ceiling. You know, just normal things. Just normal podcast things. Anyway, that's something that, you know, if we had more time, we would have been debriefed at sad happy hour. So yes. Anyway, I encourage all of you if you are a supervisor or a manager, I encourage you having a sad happy hour. Okay, we're encouraging. We haven't tried it yet. So we can't say it's a tried and true method you having a sad happy hour. Okay, we're encouraging.

We haven't tried it yet. So we can't say it's a tried and true method, but we're pretty confident. The concept is sound where it's happy hour. So people bring their snackies and their drinks and you just get through it. We're doing a two five. So you're at two o'clock.

I'm at five o'clock. So mine is like actual happy hour time. Yours is like prime snack time. So we're hoping this kind of works um but i think i it holds promise i would it does i think it's like this is just one way to get through the you know the less rigamarole the rigamarole yeah yeah yeah oh man i think i think a snacky's gonna really help me out here i just feel so bad because we sit there and we're like before he was like and one more thing well i also i do feel i feel very bad for you know eva and all of our lovely admin who help out but you know a lot of

venues we've been dealing a lot at the time with like uh ada compliance because i can't use stairs these days and it's a lot of logistical it's a lot of conversations about like you know can we do ramps how do we get you backstage blah blah blah so it's and it's a lot of back and forth so it's like oh i went back and i circled back and i per my previous email and so you know they handle all the difficult stuff we just have to sit here and complain about it you know so we are toddlers because we have to do nothing they have to do all the back and forth phone calls and we're acting like we're completely inconvenienced so um anyway that's probably the most diva thing about us eva thoughts on that never mind don't say anything i hear crickets that's not good okay well anyway sad happy hour it's something

that i'm both sad and happy to try so i'm kind of loving it because it also fits our brand like i know it's just a per like a it's an intra work intra personal thing but it really fits the brand of the show too so you know i don't know why we haven't been having happy hour and that's why we drink this entire time well Well, we have. We just never stuck with it, which is why I'm not 110 percent sure this will really work as well as we hope, because we've tried a couple. Like, remember, we were going to do like a monthly happy hour with like Katie and Eva and, you know, Megan on social media. And then like we did one and it just never happened again. But I think the problem was it went like three hours long and so we were like wow this is we never did it again because it was so much

fun but we also realized we took our like people's nights from a lot of time everyone went to bed at like midnight and i was like oh we did not mean to do that it just fell in that way um yeah anyway wow we're gonna try everyone like being involved in our like god talk i mean it's so boring sorry guys it's like the uh the water cooler talk of and that's why we drink you know oh how do we not have any specials called the water cooler i feel like that'd be fun i'm really into it yeah i think so let's work what special what we'll shop it i don't know like a special okay episode i don't know it's too late to make new things happen is it hang on it's not too late to make new things we just made a sad happy hour today okay that's a good point what if we do a water cooler maybe

that can be our patreon name remember when we couldn't come up with a name the water cooler yeah so we call it after chat well it's like a more but and that's why we drink sound because that's like office oh you're right you're right like we need like a water cooler at a at a pub you know what about uh open bar oh haven't we said this already i feel like i'm having like deja vu like we've already discussed this i don't know maybe it was in a dream i had um i don't know i like it though open bar you know just kind of i like it speaking of open bar uh i don't mean to brag but i'm pretty sure i'm employee of the month uh up in space at the star tenders academy so you are i i have not been told but I am saying I was on a fucking roll last night.

I'm so proud of you, Em. I had my shift. It was at one in the morning. I worked for about, you know, an hour, two hours and made about 120 drinks. Didn't mess up one of them. Fuck yes. I'm so proud of you. I would like a shirt that says employee of the month, you know, so.

From the grog shop. From the grog shop. From the Grog shop. From ye olde Grog tavern. Yes. Sadie made the most amazing illustration of your Grog shop on Instagram. Did you see it? I saw. I saw.

It's like beautiful. It was to die for. And it looks oddly similar to the bar I work at. I feel like maybe they knew they were onto something there because they really nailed it. I think so. Anyway, that's why I drink this week because I have declared myself bartender of the

week. The aliens really can't confirm or deny because they are not real. So there you go. You know what? With that attitude, of course not. But in my world, if your boss wasn't real you would just give yourself titles all the time so i'm gonna i'm gonna lean into it

can i tell you something if my boss wasn't real i would do zero work ever so you're already way ahead of me and i think you deserve employee of the month because i would do nothing well to be fair i'm your boss and you're my boss and we... Ah, fuck. That's why we're back in a sad, happy... Everything circles back to this sad, happy hour. Sappy hour? No. No. Had?

Hmm. Hmm. Open bar. Open bar. Let's just have an open bar and skip all the other stuff. Yeah. Why do you drink this week, Christine? I don't know, Em.

I'm just in a mood today and I made Blaze take me to Jungle Gyms and buy like 80 bags of candy. What kind? Oh my god, so many kinds. I did the pick your own, where they weigh it. I did that, of course, with gummy sharks and atomic fireballs

and these old-timey strawberry ones that I love. Love them. And then I also did gummy sharks and atomic fireballs and these old-timey strawberry ones that i love um and then i also did uh like the where are they i didn't bring them but like the kind of old school like amish candies the hard candies and i got them in like 10 different flavors and i shoved them all in my nightstand so at night i'm just like rustling around while blaze is trying to sleep that's like uh eva's girlfriend has uh night nuts uh i know way too much about this but eva's girlfriend has night nuts where she keeps nuts in her nightstand so she can rummage through like okay i want to say i want to say like wow you know way too much but also that is the kind of thing that rachel would tell somebody on their

first meeting without prompting without any prompt like i want to be like whoa that's really intimate but like no that's something rachel would tell how do you think i know about the night nuts i never said do you have night nuts i know i know but that's what i'm saying it's not that you're like in the inner workings of it's just kind of that's the kind of thing she will announce to you know no one in particular it's exactly how it happened and by the way i also don't think i asked what type of nuts the night nuts were but i was still told that was your big mistake they are almond butter covered almonds wow that's pretty meta i would say so if you're looking for some night nuts i always stand those if you want to be just like eva's girlfriend that's what you gotta do and. And I do. And we all know it.

So, yeah, I think maybe that'll be. I'll go to jungle gyms and see what's in stock. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Do you.

Boy, Christine. Well, that was a lot of a lot of banter. I have a headache. I keep getting headaches. And I feel like it's you. That's the problem. That's fine. That's probably true. Anyway, that's the end of my problem. That's fine. That's probably true.

Anyway, that's the end of my complaint. I'm sorry you have a headache. I would give you some stuff from the apothecary behind me. But again, you're not here. I have these two little apothecary bottles. You see, I've been putting up little shelves. Oh, by the way, I put this fake plant in my webby. Look.

That's so smart. Isn't that cute? Don't let Allison hear it she's gonna take my webbies and start filling them with dirt and plants we have plenty to spare wink okay no so I put a fake eucalyptus in it you know and I put it under the skull picture that somebody made us that's so smart I was so into it but I have little apothecary bottles because you left them in the rental car by mistake. Oh, did I? Oh, shit.

But I didn't want to. Why? Why did I have apothecary bottles in the rental car? Was it for my night nuts? What happened? I have no memory of this. Night nuts. Okay.

So our pal Jess, who does the newsletter, came to the show, the Boston show, with her friend Molly. And Molly brought us little gifts. And Molly has an apothecary and brought you two pretty little glass bottles. And then I found them in the backseat along with the Happy Meal toys that Eva and I gave you. Why would I have left those? I must have thought I was getting back in the car. Well, I kept them for you and I kept them. I kept the the the letter that came with it. OK, good.

So it's all here for you. But I'm just letting you know that they're here in safekeeping. But also, yeah, I think that speaking of apothecary, I do kind of have my own apothecary here. I have some Excedrin. So I think it's all of your fate pens. What my fate pens and my excedrin christine look these are all my like empty bottles that i need to use those are gorgeous i know i love them and so there's like i'm trying i have to figure out what to do with all the colored glass that really does it for me you have no idea christine i've

been collecting the colored glass and this yellow one by the way was like from michael's or something it was like really just in a craft like in the craft section it was like a quarter and then you know remember when that we went to michael's at one time and bought a bunch of crap for my house and it was halloween season i was pregnant and we bought all those like tests and tubes and whatever and so at halloween i always fill them and then i put a couple drops of food coloring and I make like different for Halloween decorations I fill all the vials with different colored water I feel like you could do that

with the bottles that you don't have anything in to make them just kind of like I have a suggestion for you with those tell me I think you should start putting your candies you just got out of your bags and different vials and so you can you can make your own little potions of your favorite candy concoctions stop i can't right there i can't of all that is holy i'm just saying like what if you put like little mini m&ms in one some

skittles in the other and then you just made a bowl for yourself for a movie night a little really i mean think about it think about you get a big bowl of popcorn. Then you're like, which toppings do I want? Oh, Christine. Oh, the possibilities are endless. Oh, wow. Why did Eva take up all our time to talk about bullshit logistics when we could have been having this conversation an hour ago? Now this is happy, happy hour. This is the real, where the magic happens. Eva, I would like our professional meetings to sound more like like this if you can do something about that

other bad part is that eva's internet is out so she went to the podcast department internet was out there too so she's somewhere at a starbucks just she's literally down the street like i feel like i have i feel like she's all of her twist and i could like let her into my home and she's just not here okay stay there uh oh poor eva she's probably already ditched us she's like well i told them what i needed to say and now i'm going home um okay well let's get into this now what i don't there's nothing left but to work christine unfortunately so oh but i think you're gonna have a real good time with this one i can't wait this is uh blaze's favorite word lore and uh okay um this is i guess a 101 on doppelgangers oh i'm so excited i thought you froze for a second um i did i did but just in

space and time just chemically um okay so this i really wanted it to be like a little creepier on so i wanted to be a little creeper so there are stories a very very few um i don't want people to think this is like going to turn to a whole listeners episode afterwards but um there's some little like snippets of people with doppelgangers i feel like this is one of those topics that's like pro like you need the anecdotes to like round out the story well i am glad you said that because i i but at the same time, I, I don't know. Let's just get into it and see what we, what we get. This is more informational at first.

So people know like what a doppelganger is. So, so it's German. Did you know that? The word? Of course. Yep. Do you know what it means? Yeah.

It means like a, I'm trying to think of the best translation. Doppel is like zwei. Like zwei is German. Double is two or like... Double. God, my English. I mean, doppel... Doppel is double or two.

And Genga is just someone who goes or walks. Yeah, so it's German for double goer. Yeah. It just doesn't have the right ring. Same ring, I guess, which is why we stuck with the german i was gonna say thanks for translating your german into more german um yeah that was so like not helpful i'm like i'm supposed to double means zwei you're like what the fuck those are both not english words anyway that's the most hoity-toity thing you've ever done no it's just stupid not hoity-toity so yeah it's german for

double goer and uh in 1787 there was a provincial glossary that defined a doppelganger as an apparition of a person living oh whoa oh i like that actually yeah maybe that has the the thing you wanted that's kind of the better way to describe it. And it's in English, too. That is a win, for sure. So the basic concept of a doppelganger is it's your exact lookalike, but it is not some random human who happens to look similarly to you. It is a non-human entity.

is a non-human entity oh the modern ideal it's the modern ideal of like your evil twin because a lot of people uh kind of associate doppelgangers with evil um but they aren't usually malicious most stories are they appear and then they're gone yeah the idea is pretty old for a doppelganger i mean it's been around at least since the 1787 Provincial Glossary. But the name itself was coined in 1796, like officially the word doppelganger. And it was coined by a German author named Jean-Paul, which is a French name. Interesting. How intriguing. So the name was then popularized by a famous spiritualist who I would like to cover

eventually. Her name is Catherine Ann Crow. And after she started talking about doppelgangers, it kind of took off there. There are some other names for doppelgangers. There's Double Walker, Shadow Self, Second Self. Shadow Self is good. Isn't that spooky? Yeah, it is so the second self or the additional self

or whatever phrase you're more familiar with that's its own like ancient concept at this point the second self and a lot of cultures and beliefs comes from the the thought that we have a physical body and a spiritual body okay and the spiritual body is your second self. Sometimes the spiritual body is called the subtle body. Apparently that's more commonly used in like Eastern practices. And then in Western practices, they'll call it the celestial body or the astral body. I've also heard radiant body.

There's body of life. It's a body. Yeah. Obviously. body there's body of life it's a body yeah obviously and uh this second body is said to be able to travel away from our physical physical selves often while being invisible which we have talked about astral travel yeah quite a lot on this show um but like i said a lot of times it's the second self is invisible so when it detaches from you and travels around nobody knows that it's happening um and this is actually

a process uh so physical by spiritual or self second self when the second self leaves it's often invisible but when it is visible apparently there's times where people see your astral body and not your physical body by accident and it could look like a doppelganger of sorts i like that it's by accident oops i i imagine right i don't unless you're like really trying for people to i don't know i don't know how that happens but apparently it's called by location oh when you can be visibly seen in two places okay i love that idea by location that's cool so when you're astral projecting in your sleep i'm gonna need you to really try extra hard for me to be able to see you so we can see if by location is what's why don't you just see

me by accident that'll be easier for both of us i know and i don't have to try so hard so uh fun fact pythagoras of the theorem uh he allegedly could bilocate and he would go to and this is what's weird to me i i i don't know too much about bilocation i thought i was going to end up in like a backroom situation and my head was going to explode from science um but apparently this you can intentionally split off and be seen in two different spaces and that is what pythagoras allegedly could do they say he could bilocate and be seen in different cities hanging out with two different groups of people at the same time oh my god so he was just like living it up it wasn't just like oh he would appear it's like he's actually living he's like being intentional with this and like

he's like zach and codying all over the place he's reclaiming his time yes for him and also like how on earth is that math theory the thing that he's known for if i'm saying like hello they're burying the lead he could literally carbon copy himself but it's like no big deal whatever so uh these concepts however of my location the astral body all this they all refer to two versions of you being in two places at once like your actual self but a doppelganger is not a second you it is another entity mimicking you i see what you're saying okay okay so these are different concepts okay so uh doppelgangers are not actually you you cannot control them you cannot decide where they're going what they're doing, what their plans are.

All at the same time, they are perfectly mimicking you and can fool just about anyone because they look, sound, move, smell, act just like you in every way, all the way down to your laugh, all the way down to, I don't know, insert very small mundane thing.

The hair on your chinny chin chin. Yeah, if you've got one little whisker you're maybe insecure about oh I do it's called my scar hair oh it grows out of my scar oh and every now and then Blaze will say um your scar hair's back and I'm like damn it I have to go pluck it my mom is gonna kill me for this and she already I think she's screaming no from her car she feels it I'm gonna say um she's gonna appear behind you as a doppelganger and be like i swear to god she's got she's got a little neck neck hair uh and she didn't know about it i unfortunately told her about it as like a teenager and so now one of our favorite pastimes is when i'm in town

i pluck it for her so that's so thoughtful so it's just the one uh yes because mine's just one two it's so weird and it gets really long i think i think everyone's got at least one and it makes no fucking sense it's another thing that makes you think bodies are crazy because bodies are crazy i'm like i pull this sucker out i got this scar when i was three years old and it's every for my whole life i'm plucking this thing out evo just volunteered information and said that she also has a chin hair and her girlfriend plucks it for her so i think this is what i'm saying about we know a lot about them and their relationship yeah but like just you know not because we pry it just kind of comes to us

like eva just kind of says it and then volunteers the i mean now she's dating someone who also just says it i'm not complaining you know i love to get this intel and i need to know i'm not the only one with the scar hair i love the info no i've got um i mean i've got coarse weird hairs like that just sprout nowhere you know what's so weird i have two hairs i have one right here it's like like where like what's the behind your bicep i don't know tricep sure one right there and then i've got one behind my like earlobe where hair does not grow like hair weird like but both of them are the finest blondest hairs that are never there and then are like i'm not kidding like three inches long like if you don't know this about m m has very dark hair this is like a strange it's like and it's like platinum white it happens one on my arm and one

behind my earlobe and i didn't ever know about the ear one until i was dating alice and all of a like a strange it's like and it's like platinum white it happens one on my arm and what a phenomenon and i didn't ever know about the ear one until i was dating alice and all of a sudden i like went to go like scratch my ear and i i could i could feel something tugging and i was like alice and you have to get it and now like one of our favorite pastimes is her looking for my ear hair i mean i swear to god it's like all three of us and our partners are just looking for our our hair our individual hair it's like blaze is like the our partners are just looking for our hair, our individual hair. It's like Blaze is like, the scar hair is back. You know, it's clearly.

I'm not a hair person. I'm a blackhead person. And every time, or any zit, Allison is in danger. Every time that she's got like a breakout, I'm like, let me at it. Oh my God. There's nothing I love more than like the little, than popping them. I'm so. No.

Oh, I can't. I just love it so much. Let's change the subject. Why subject why did this even come up oh because i said all the hair on your chinny chin chin there's literally no other reason than that but okay but great point if any of us were having a breakout or have a scar hair or something our doppelganger would have that too um they should and if you check and they don't then that's probably not me yeah if you ever meet me and i have flawless skin and my ears are not hairy then something's very wrong here something's awry um okay so uh it all it's also said that if you run into your doppelganger that is not good which i i've heard that before where like if you see yourself then it's an omen i've also i've heard that before where like if you see yourself, then it's an omen. I've also I've heard the like they're there to hurt you or only one of you can be in the space at one time.

Yeah. It's like something terrible happens. So it's very quickly gone into like a dark place where doppelgangers like imply evil in the UK and Ireland. They have a similar entity to a doppelganger called the fetch. Um, and so if a doppelganger appears when you're about to get hurt, um, or,

or appears, it implies that you will be hurt soon in some sort of omen way. A fetch specifically is a doppelganger that appears before someone dies oh no so it's almost like um an omen an omen and like like a black dog as an escort to hell or something it's like hi it's me it's you i'm you and i'm bringing you straight to hell okay that fits What's the Taylor song? It's me Hi I'm the problem it's me And so are you because you're me and I'm you

And so the fetch will Show up before someone dies I also Talked about that when we covered the banshee But The difference between the banshee And the fetch is that A banshee um but the difference between the banshee and the fetch is that uh a banshee is said to do this but not as a doppelganger so like a banshee was like a very beautiful woman a lot of times or just a random wailing human that would show up you know uh you know but a fetch

looks like you and it's going about your average usual day. So honestly, no one even knows. It's such a weird like this is an omen. But half the people that it's like 22 or I don't know the right word. But yeah, exactly. It's like, how do you even determine that? Yeah, that's very trippy. Yeah, it's like, thanks for the warning.

But also, I didn't know't know yeah but also that warning sucked send a better one next time at least a banshee is a great warning it's a beautiful woman who is just screaming bloody just fucking screaming like she gets your attention but you're like oh nothing good is happening now i get it like like, if I were recording with your fetch and they were talking about your scar hair, I'd be like, okay, and be completely unaware that this was a warning. What scar hair?

I don't have a scar hair. Yeah. Oh, wait, hold on. It worked! If you're lucky, by the way, the fetch might appear for a near-death experience instead of if you're lucky cool well if you're lucky usually it arrives to warn you that you're going to die but sometimes they appear to say like oh you're almost gonna die but you'll make it don't worry about it so it's like very unhinged because it's letting you know something really fucking scary is

going to happen to you. And best case scenario, you almost die. I just feel like I don't want to know, you know, like if it's going to happen no matter what. I just like why just live with that. That's that anxiety. I don't know. It's I don't know where i stand on this but it's another

catch-22 because like as someone who lives with constant dread and anxiety it's like i'm already there but how much worse could it be but right and like will it give me any sense of control maybe but is it worth it i don't know it's also one of those things of like final destination and evading fate it's like well if i get hit by a car then what if i just don't leave the house but then like a car could come running through the wall you know like you know it's i i have no way like we're it's becoming sad happy hour hang on um oh shit that's only for monday at five o'clock um so uh yeah the fetch is your doppelganger but will show up to i guess warn somebody maybe itself that you're about to go through something okay there's a story uh from ireland that this guy saw his

brother's fetch and didn't know it was a fetch just thought it was his brother walking up to him in a field uh he said hey to his, but the brother said nothing and vanished before his very eyes. And later, the guy found out that his brother was actually thousands of miles away. And I guess he must have evaded death because he lived for another 25 years. Okay, well, that's a good sign,

but that's so interesting. That sounds almost like astral projection where you kind of yeah go to a loved one like were you thinking about each other or something yeah weird um also like imagine just xandy just walking up to you but thousands of miles away though he sleepwalks so i can imagine it and it's horrific because he walks up to me and like his eyes are just totally red and glazed over and you'll be like hello what are just totally red and glazed over. And you'll be like, hello, what are you doing?

And he like won't answer. He'll just stare at you. So I do feel like I live with this pretty regularly anyway. What if he's never sleptwalked and it was always his fetch? Oh, it's the wrong button. I'm sorry. No, that was the right button. Okay, fair. Maybe fate led my finger to wrong button. I'm sorry. No, that was the right button. Okay, fair.

Maybe fate led my finger to that button. There's also a poet named Dora Sigerson Shorter who wrote a poem about a fetch where a man was waiting outside for his girlfriend, but she ended up being late. And when she got there, she said like, oh, I'm really sorry. I was behind a funeral procession.

And it was for this young woman. And it was really weird. They started digging a grave for her at a crossroads. Oh. And so she got freaked out and she took off. And the guy thought, I guess she has been late many times and he felt disrespected because he breaks up with her and and sorry i was stuck behind a fucking funeral but okay heartbroken the woman throws herself into a lake and drowns all night long though the guy hears his girlfriend crying and so he

eventually goes out to try to find her but he gets stuck behind a funeral procession and because it ended up being his girlfriend's and which like by the way the turnaround on a funeral is crazy i'm sorry to laugh but like wow they were on it it's like he went to bed there was a funeral um also he wasn't invited that's pretty rude right so in this story uh he gets behind a funeral procession and it ends up being his girlfriends and because she drowned herself and she took her own life she was going to be buried under the crossroads oh my god i get it so over time uh the fetch has kind of evolved into you know uh stories like that where you're you're almost able to see a situation not even a person right happening before you where you see your own

fucking funeral going by horrifying there are also stories of the fetch appearing to people uh like bruised battered burned like looking in incredible pain essentially foretelling how the person will soon die so no again i don't want to know so you could show up all bloodied and it's like a warning of how it's horrible one thing i thought was kind of interesting is uh the fetch has also evolved in folklore over time to be more of like a familiar to a witch like a little animal but they're known to i think i think this is right my understanding is that familiars are shapeshifters sometimes. And so the fetch has become a familiar for witches that can disguise itself as the witch. Oh, I see.

And basically be the witch's doppelganger. Okay. And the version I saw, the source I saw was that, so like the witch never has to leave their house to go run errands they can just make a familiar now see you know i fucking love that like because my first thought and i didn't want to say it because i'm like this is gonna sound so stupid but i was like my first thought was man it would be nice to have somebody to just like go run my errands for me and stuff you know it would be lovely and hey which has found a way to do it so dream get yourself a doppelganger make one if you have

to man i might in scotland there's another similar being to the doppelganger called the co walker oh oh that's a good name too co walker uh it it's apparently a fairy being um who shows up uh kind of whenever like doesn't really have a rhyme or reason. It's not to warn you of death. Has no connection to death. It's just a doppelganger that appears. Yeah. So this co-walker will participate in everyday activity.

You might think that you just saw Blaze walk by brushing his teeth. But it was a co-walker who just wanted to i guess have the experience um i hope it's worth it because it's not really an exciting thing to do but whatever it's truly like even the most mundane things people will see a co-walker i was gonna say that is almost freakier though like it's why uncanny valley or something of like yeah like it feels creepier that there's no intention or no meaning or big bigger purpose yeah also when something mysterious or creepy or misunderstood appears you usually are you're prepared to be on edge yeah and i feel like if you just watch it

brushing its teeth i mean if you were watching jeffrey dahmer brush his teeth or murder somebody brushing his teeth is almost disturbing in its own way because yes like it has a what's the word a sinister quality to it for some reason and what's weird is i think what's weird about that is it feels sinister because it feels more human and it's like oh yeah that's a great point that's a great point it doesn't feel like an us versus them it's like oh you're weirdly you're just copying us right yeah so anyway uh anyway quickly uh the co-walker uh will just do mundane things and people i guess there's some people out there who have a gift where they can actually see fairies and if you have this gift you can also see co-walkers so i guess that means a lot of people don't see co-walkers it's people just looking like you doing things like you mimicking you without even wanting to be seen yeah so that's

an interesting concept like how do you even yeah i don't know maybe one theory is that anyone can see them and one theory is only if you can see fairies you can see them yeah that makes sense but apparently people who have seen them have have seen people that they thought were at a party with them or having you know they were up literally a pallbearer at a funeral and apparently they were just co-walkers and my question to that not to get like all like either existential or like space and time but if you think you're seeing somebody at a party who was expected to be there where's the actual person like yeah that's a great point like did they are they swapping realms did they cease to exist for a minute like yeah are they at home? Are they both at the party, but one's like getting punch and the other is on the dance floor?

Are they avoiding each other like a sitcom? Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. That's a great question. But this is kind of the creepier thing to me is like, how do these co-walkers select the person they're going to mimic? And apparently they will just pick somebody and then attach to them. No.

And throughout the rest of your life, they will randomly show up and mimic you. So it's never a one and done. It seems like, oh, five years later, people will still think they saw you walking down the street downtown, but you were sleeping. I don't like that. creepy i don't like that at all there's a 17th century folklorist named robert kirk who said it accompanies that person so long and frequently

whether to guard him from the secret assaults of some of its own folks or only as a sportful mimicry to counterfeit all of his actions so basically one theory is that they will select you because they're protecting you from other fairy folk okay and to disguise themselves as you is almost a distraction or to veer them away from you okay i mean i guess i'll take that so far it's the only theory where like they're doing it out of like love and protection and but i'm sort of like what are there strings attached like yeah that's like why like why you don't even mean like why me yeah also why just why do some fairies want to yeah what did i do and also if they want to get me did i do something wrong and do i deserve it

so is the person defending me like also an outlaw you know great question are we both now in trouble oh my gosh so many questions uh the other theory is oh it's not here to protect you it's just being an asshole and causing causing a ruckus i'm almost more happy with that theory it seems like a less dangerous like yeah you can fuck around if you want i don't want a whole fairy folk after me but you know if you want to just run around downtown go for it yeah if you want to buy me things and bring it home that's my guess if you want to do my groceries and brush my teeth fine here's the even weirder part though sometimes these uh co-walkers are still attached to you after death and people have reported seeing their dead loved ones still walking around because the co-walker is still

existing as them oh come on that's not fair that's wild and like i wonder like i sometimes wonder what's lore and what's that like if someone truly thinks that they saw yeah their dead loved one and they live in a space or a culture where the answer to that is fairies I wonder in like another culture that is like oh psychologically

you're having a flashback or something like I I wonder oh interesting point like I wonder where the overlap is but um still or like if it's an apparition I wonder. Oh, interesting point. Like, I wonder where the overlap is. But still. Or like if it's an apparition of your ghost versus like a doppelganger who's mimicking you. You know what I mean? Because I feel like usually if you see someone who's dead, you're like, oh, it's their ghost. But like.

Yeah. Huh. Oh, trippy. Intrapping. Okay, Christine. It sure is, Christine. It sure is, Christine. It sure is. So just a few similar beings or similar doppelgangers.

In Finland, there's a similar elf-like being called the Haltia. But this is known to be a guardian spirit, so we'll be like that. That's good. One type of Haltia is a, they're also called first comers because they show up first. These first comers in the Haltia realm are called the Etianen, and they mimic people just like a doppelgangeranger and these entities know what you'll be doing at every moment and beat you to the punch doing everything slightly before you for what that sounds like your annoying sibling being like like copying everything you say they

are but so and i think this one is more like of an astral realm because I don't know if people are actually seeing these creatures, but it seems more like a symbolic thing because what I'm gauging from it and my understanding is that these beings are the reason that you have like gut feelings and deja vu because you're sensing something that already lived out as you that's actually really cool so it's like going ahead to like it's not just to like mock you which was my immediate thought but to like yeah because remember these are these are guardian they're right so they're almost like going out ahead of you okay that's really interesting i I kind of like that. I'm back on board. And I kind of like that it gives a very warm reason for deja vu of like, oh, your guardian spirit has already gone out onto the path and has made sure everything's good for you and you can feel safe. Yeah, I like that, Em. Yeah, okay, I take it back.

Sorry. Your deja vu doppelganger is like fuck you yeah i was like well there goes my chance uh so i think that's very interesting and then in norway there's another being kind of like that that travels ahead of you called the vardiget um and i i assume they it does similar things there's another one called the philly jaw but they appear to your friends instead of you so instead of you having deja vu it's like if you had a dream about me or you just thought of me and then all of a sudden i call you in real life it's instead of it being a guardian spirit that um is making sure everything's clear for you and thus

you have deja vu uh the filly jaw is almost like giving friends a little announcement that i'm about to appear in your life oh i kind of like that too like knock knock it's like everyone's got like not a jester but the hear ye hear ye know? Yes, with the little trumpet. Yeah, exactly. So if you ever have a dream of me and then all of a sudden you see me the next day or something you didn't expect and all of a sudden I pop up, that is my-

Oh God, help me. That's my filly jaw telling you- Your filly jaw better fucking warn me because I need some ample warning before you just appear out. Like if I'm seeing you out of surprise, like usually I see you because we know we're going to see each other. Yeah, I need a warning for that. I feel like instead of a trumpet, I need like the Spongebob alarm clock fog horn.

You know, you need this. You're like, oh, it's coming. God damn it. I wonder if you have a dream of me and i have a dream of you and neither of us know we're about to see each other like at the supermarket are philly jaw also friends like are hanging out are they like just kind of getting coffee together before like the real deal storms in and they're like you know they're like oh god here they go again so uh yeah basically if you dream or think of somebody uh it means that they're uh it means you sensed their filly jaw arriving i kind of love that yeah that's fun they all kind of clump together my understanding is like they're all they all

fall into the oh they appear before you actually get there right so that is the haltia the vartigate the etiainen and the philly jaw and people have actually heard a vartigate turning on showers or they could hear footsteps of a person and it's this is interesting because it makes me think just like how we were saying oh is it um uh is it a doppelganger or is it like psychologically something or is it a ghost or is it right in this area a vartigate sounds similar to like a haunting because a vartigate will turn on showers they'll turn on the stove you'll hear footsteps the person you know walking around, but then you'll realize you're the only person at home. Okay, that's interesting. So a Vardigat, and by the way, it doesn't mean they actually like turn on the shower or turn on the stove, but the sounds of...

Oh, you just hear it. The sounds of the person that you live with or you know of are surrounding you. sounds of the person that you live with or you know of are surrounding you and so again psychologically i wonder if that's just like muscle memory of like you're used to hearing blaze walking around upstairs right like you hear right and i feel like your brain plays tricks on you yeah isn't that a common thing in i think was it ireland where they there's like a it's probably a same concept maybe you've even said it already, but like a person, a doppelganger sort of who arrives home before you and like you hear them open the door,

toss their bag to the side, take off their shoes, go up the stairs, and then you're like, where are you? Yeah. And then you look out and they're pulling up into the driveway. I feel like that's,

I think it's in Ireland. That's a really common. Very similar to all these other ones. That's what it sounds like. Yeah. You're sensing their little trumpet man like yeah you're you're sensing their their little trumpet man has warned you that they're on their way has thrown its keys so you know they're coming it's really nice there's a one example of this is there's a story

of a guy named jacob who was at home with his parents and they hear jacob's uh like carpentry tools being used and basically the whole family knew that oh well we're all here we're not using the tools uh sounds like the tools are going to be used shortly in the future and our doppelgangers are warning us of that i would have thought someone's broken into well yeah it's like that's a very calm way to look at it i suppose i like that all three of them are like oh the little trumpet man for the tools is letting me know that the tools will be used soon how thoughtful of him well he's just using a chainsaw in the garage it's just it's fine he's just saying hi what a good point like how annoying are carpentry tools when you're not using them and

also like dangerous like who's running the chainsaw and do they know how to use it? Have they had the proper training? Yeah. Does OSHA know that? Is there a doppelganger OSHA? You know, I there's nothing more annoying to me in the sound of hammering when I'm not the one hammering. Correct. So imagine you're at home and yeah, at 3 a.m. you hear a vroom, vroom, vroom. You are absolutely correct. I would be beside myself irritated. So anyway, the next morning, though, the neighbor comes over and asks Jacob if he can use his tools. So he needed them, by the way, to make a coffin for his son that died that night. Again, the turnaround is crazy. This isn't I don't know if this is a real story, by the way. I'm pretty sure this is like a like an urban legend so um but he says i need to make a coffin and my son died last night and it theoretically happened at the same time that jacob and his family well you know that's interesting because i feel like that brings it back to the omen almost like it's not just like oh he needs

tools it's like for for a death that occurred like it's almost oh oh that's interesting because i wonder oh man hang on my brain's about to explode because i feel like uh yeah it's almost a death omen of what's to come but at the same time it's a degree removed almost like it's like the tools showed up like the little trumpet man for the tools said this is gonna happen but then like there was actually a darkness to it that said death is coming yeah so is the trumpet man good or bad at this point i'm confused i don't know maybe there's a bad trumpet maybe chaotic neutral i'm not sure trumpet man does the trumpet man have a trumpet man oh god now we're really getting in it your head is it just on earth or like do aliens have trumpet men this is that why we are not powerful enough for this conversation i'm sorry i just have to say it fair enough

so anyway in some cultures as you were saying earlier, a doppelganger can also is also the concept of your shadow. Oh, so your shadow is doppelganger, which it is a doppel. It is a perfect image of you. I guess so. Yeah. And because it is, in theory, a doppelganger or a second self, you should respect it as such. So in Germany... Does anyone not respect it?

Oh, okay. I'm about to find out. In Germany, there are some who say when using a lantern, if you look at your shadow and it is headless, or if your shadow is not there at all, if it's distorted in some way, it means you will die within a year because your second self is already detaching from you it means step to the left until you are no longer being blocked by this windowsill so you can see your head again is what i'm gonna take from that because that's horrible that's horrible what do you mean you're gonna your head is gone so you're gonna die in a year also a year is a long time like if you're like oh within 24 hours at least for that 24 hours i can be anxious and once it's passed i'm like okay a year of like sitting on pins and needles hoping you're not gonna die and what if it's exactly to the minute a year so for 365 days and 23 hours and 59 minutes done yeah oh my god uh anyway so shout out to germany um also

classic they've even said also respect your shadow by never stepping on it because you're damaging it in some way possible i know well i don't know is it attached to your feet it is your your your toes are always kissing those little piggies are getting into each other they're snuggling veto veto so uh yeah don't step on your shadow uh because one of the theories is you and your doppelganger can't either be in a room together or they can't harm each other and so if you're stepping on your shadow you're harming your second self and it's an omen for you okay and other cultures there are like natural objects like stones that can you know spirits are known to connect with but we have obviously discussed that in full detail in our friendship of stones and crystals and all that being spiritually um so there is a theory

that if your shadow ever passes over one of these natural objects that a spirit is attached to the spirit can jump from the natural stone into your shadow oh that's interesting i think that's super cool but also if you ever touch anything eventually your shadow goes over it right like yes so no matter what if you're touching it your shadows already so i guess that kind of makes sense though because we have said if you touch a crystal it's you know you're you're letting the energy absorb through you right that's a great point so it's like that's just a more direct way of your shadow coming in contact with it yeah so i guess if uh if a crystal has any like dark energy maybe i hope also good

energy but if it has any dark energy attached to it it can cross into you through your shadow because it's going through your astral body first and then into you right right right um allegedly if uh oh allegedly one of the worst things that can happen to your shadow self or your doppelganger is for it to be harmed and that can mean much worse for you because if your second self is in danger your primary self is for sure in danger oh no so uh here's one quick anecdote that Catherine the Great apparently woke up one night to her servants freaking out because they just saw her sitting at her throne. But it was her own doppelganger oh no girl essentially ordering her own execution and shortly after she died of a stroke once her doppelganger had also been killed oh no oh no and although some say seeing your doppelganger could be dangerous or deadly german folklore they give us a pass and they say it's only deadly once you've seen your doppelganger three times

oh good thanks germans thank you um fun fact abraham lincoln claimed that he saw his doppelganger three times after his first election no one was three times he saw himself in the mirror or when he looked in the mirror he saw two of him oh one of them looked pale and ghostly oh no and he had one of his quotes about this was i was a little bothered but the illusion vanished which like boy a little bothered i would literally never sleep again i would be screwed he apparently saw it once a little this uh doppelganger a little cloudy then he saw it a second time and the doppelganger was clearer which is even scarier because i feel like that means a prophecy is being agreed it's like growing in power or something

yeah and then the third time he saw it his wife was even freaked out remember his wife was like because I feel like that means a prophecy is being agreed. It's like growing in power or something. Yeah. And then the third time he saw it, his wife was even freaked out. Remember, his wife was really into spiritualism. Yeah. And she interpreted this as he's going to serve two terms as president, but he won't survive the second time, which is correct. Wow.

She really took that and ran with it she really said like i know what this specific my specific vision and uh it was still right that's terrible um also fun fact the husband of mary shelley the writer of frankenstein uh percy shelley he also saw his doppelganger multiple times just before his death oh no the first time he saw it it apparently it looked him in the eyes and asked him how long do you mean to be content how dare you yeah which like what what's it to you first of all what do you even mean second of all how dare you how long do you mean to be content does that mean like how long do you plan on being happy or how long do you plan on being here? Yeah, I guess.

Right. Also, they talk to you. I thought like in my mind. Is it your voice? Yeah. Oh, I hope so. I don't. Well, do I?

I feel like. I don't know. I you know how like you hate the sound of your own voice on a recording yes imagine having to look yourself in the eyes and hear that voice absolutely i'd be like what's wrong with your face they'd be like this is literally what you look like and i'd go oh no i'd be like you didn't get that one whisker on your chin um a nice try and they'd be like you either that's why i have this uh so anyway he the first time he saw it it asked him that very eerie question the next time he saw his doppelganger was when he went into his own bedroom and saw himself standing over the bed

strangling his wife in her sleep what and then he died shortly after that's so weird that it was hurting someone else but then it was an omen of his own death that's so weird that it was hurting someone else but then it was an omen of his own death that's so weird yeah it's like are is it are both of you in danger can a doppelganger for somebody else be there to hurt you yeah isn't that weird i won't huh because you would think if it's connected enough to you that it looks identical to you and sounds like you then it cares a lot more about you or i wonder i don't know maybe that's the beginning of a really good like true crime mystery like psychological thing because it feels like a second version of you comes down and says how long do you mean to be happy

and then the next time you see him he's killing your wife like were you having a like a breakdown and what if she wakes up and she's and you're like it wasn't me but like you know and that also freaks me out like what if she was having a bad dream and felt like she was being choked and had no idea it was like her husband's spiritual doppelganger boy there's so many i like that anyone who's stoned right now is really like you know right out of their mind seriously because i was gonna ask was he on drugs i don't i'm not even joking like it sounds i don't know it feels like something like when you're having a nervous breakdown maybe you could like see something happening before you maybe he thought like an out-of-body experience like maybe he was choking maybe he was dissoci was dissociating. You know what I mean?

Like a psychotic break. I don't know. Another cool doppelganger story is this one guy named Johann Wolfgang von Goethe. Goethe. Goethe? Yeah, you don't know Goethe? Mm-mm. He's a very famous old-timey author.

Yes. Yeah, it does say author. I think I didn't. i forgot to say that um well he's had a doppelganger experience where he was riding his horse down his road toward town and he saw himself coming up the road and they were going to pass each other and he apparently him he saw himself dressed in a gray suit with gold trim looked very dapper and then that was kind of the end of the first half of that experience

but eight years later he's riding home from town and he sees someone you know gets about to cross him or cross his path and he realizes when he looks down that

he's wearing that gray suit i love those stories and he realizes he saw his future self it's so spooky uh i can't i truly can't think of anything creepier than that reddit story of like a guy eating a sandwich in the kitchen and one day later, he sees the other half of that. So it's I know I'm always telling this, but I wanted you to. The first time I heard it was on Jim Harrell's campfire. So I'm not sure if the original person told it on Jim Harrell's campfire or if like they just took the Reddit story. If it's the same person, I'm not sure.

But the person on Jim Harrell described being a little kid and running through his childhood home and seeing a man in a hoodie at the counter of his kitchen. And he like ran back and looked in and the guy was gone. And so he kind of never thought anything of it. And then, you know, decades later, he's back visiting his family's house and he's making a sandwich in the kitchen. And he sees something out of the corner of his eye and he turns and he sees a little kid run past and they make eye contact and it turns out he realizes decades later he was seeing himself and vice versa what and i don't know the episode if anybody who's listening to this knows the number please dm me or something because i i just I want to hear myself tell the story again.

But there's that one haunted house where the guy was living there and he would have like there would be moments where all of a sudden he could like see into the past. Like you could see the houses past. Yes. Like in the dining room or whatever. Yeah. Like he saw a whole family like having dinner and they like looked back at him and then they realized that him like they thought they realized he was part of the future and he knew he was looking at the past something oh my god like the house completely changed when he looked in that room and then he like blinked and it looked like his

house again or something so i if anybody knows what episode that was i want to know what that location was it was the story of a house yeah i feel like uh someone will know because i thought that that was a really really cool story um yeah i remember that one was one of the like the if we ever had like a best of 10 episode blah blah blah like goose cams i would say like that one for sure fuck me like that was so creepy but yeah i love that let's let's make somebody else find it for us i don't know what it is uh there's another story that in 1845 this is one of the most famous doppelganger cases it's the story of uh emily sagay sagay um i think it's french and uh she was a teacher at a girl's school and she was writing on the board

and all of a sudden saw her doppelganger standing next to her who didn't have chalk or anything to write on the board but was mimicking her movement to a T of writing while she was writing and was just writing in the air next to her. What's interesting about this

is what makes it the most famous doppelganger case, or one of them, is that 13 students in the classroom also saw the doppelganger writing in the air. Oh, shit. And this became the first of multiple sightings of her doppelganger around the school. Oh, shit. And here's a little plot twist emily already knew about this doppelganger because apparently this doppelganger is a regular in her life no she's like not again yes yes uh apparently she had to admit it later to the school that every

time she starts a new job her doppelganger appears and begins showing up at her place of business that is horrifying and so strange obviously people freaked out and so uh are people often freaked out when they'd see her doppelganger at her job so she would lose a lot of jobs no and she'd have to change jobs a lot so even though it was completely harmless people just saw her doppelganger like walking the grounds or drinking water or something um even though it was harmless in 16 years emily had worked at almost 20 schools no because she had to keep leaving and so one day bad one day emily's out in the garden at the school and the whole school is very small only like 40 girls but all of them could see emily

in the garden from her window uh from their window in their classroom right looking out they see her but then in their room a second emily appears she like, what are you guys up to? Are we snooping? Are we staring at her? That's horrifying. The kids literally tried to approach this second Emily and touch her, but they only felt cobwebs. Isn't that crazy? Yuck. And then she vanished.

Oh, yuck. After that, the principal had to let her go so i guess she's going to school number 20 um because parents started taking their kids out of school because they didn't want their kids anywhere near a doppelganger um many cultures are so worried about interacting with a doppelganger that they avoid even getting pictures taken of themselves because a picture could capture part of your soul and create a second you or a doppelganger and then and uh like today's modern versions at least in the u.s there's a lot of people who say if you interact with your doppelganger or run into your doppelganger or if the two of you make eye contact, then you're going to die soon. It's very quickly been turned into a death omen.

I also saw that apparently this has to be like a seventh grade boy thing. They said if you ever see your doppelganger on site, you have to fight each other. you have to fight each other and the and only the survivor gets to live as that person for the rest of time which sounds like the exact opposite of all the other advice we've been given to like avoid any trouble with this thing doesn't this sound a little bit like the jordan peele film oh knock it out us nope us us yeah like they're all tethered to each other yeah not i don't want to spoil it but it's a similar concept yeah i mean they are literal doppelgangers so oh well anyway that is uh wow um oh my gosh the lore of a doppelganger you really just revived my spirits after eva crushed them into a pulp i'm just kidding eva. I feel bad. Eva hasn't even told us anything bad today.

I'm just, I don't know why. She literally just said, hi, how are you? I'm at Starbucks. And we were like, poor Eva. No, I think this is called transference. That's not what it's called.

But Eva says she's taking one for the team, which what else is new? So can I tell one quick doppelganger story that I heard recently that I just loved? So it was on, of course, Jim Harreld's campfire. Please go listen to it. I feel like we love Jim Harreld. And I listen to it every single week when it comes out. And every time somebody says when he says, you know, so-and-so is on the line.

They heard about us from em and christine i lose it like i get i literally make everybody in the house listen and i'm like listen listen and blaze is always like yup it's happening again and he's very supportive but i'm sure it's very annoying but it's so exciting when people are like oh i found out about you through and that's why i drink it makes my day sweet and also and jim harold is our our podcast inspo for like it was the first show we both listened to and like would be fangirling about you know so yeah totally no absolutely i fangirl for sure even if you're non-binary or a big old alpha male bro we all know you got a fangirl every now and then girl every now and then you know and I

totally do with Jim Harold I'll go yeah that is what I do every time it's like em and Christine I'm like he just said my name and it's like okay well I've we've met him it's not like that weird but to me it's very exciting come to our live shows yeah but I'm like he said my name he knows who I am so I was a few weeks ago or maybe a few months ago. There was a story a woman called in. Oh, my God. It was it was crazy. She called in. She works at a hospital and she says, you know, I was taking I was taking a what are

these things called? A stretcher. A cart? A stretcher. A gurney? A gurney. Well, not. Yeah.

Is it what? What is it called when you're not dead and you're on one of those alive what a bed a bed okay i don't know obviously i'm very good at this and um like a hospital bed yeah like well like rolling somebody from like to the x-ray room or something you know what i mean yeah i think that's still a gurney okay so anyway she's like transferring a patient or something she gets in the elevator and there are two you know sets of elevators and she's on one and on the other side she sees a person who looks exactly like her and they make eye contact and in the other elevator like behind a bunch of people and she's just

staring at this person and then the doors close. And she's like, what the hell? That was so weird. And then later on in the day, you know, she forgets about it and she's going through her business, whatever. And, you know, it's the end of the day. She gets on the elevator and she's heading back upstairs and she looks over a bunch of people get in the elevator.

She looks over and she fucking sees herself with the patient in the other elevator. And and she sees herself going like making the face of like wait what and so like she within the same day like saw the back and forth so they so they had the the future and past yeah but yeah and so she saw herself going like wait what the fuck you know like she saw that moment of like holy nurses deserve more naps i think i think well yes uh but also that i mean that is almost i mean it's freaky and i don't know if she was a nurse i don't know what her role was at this hospital but yes it was but she might have been a doctor i'm not sure but she was like i saw myself across the hall and she thought well maybe i'm just imagining things and it just looked like me but then at the end of the day she had totally forgotten and was in that other elevator and kind of glanced out and went oh my god that's me

it's so trippy it's it's a different type of existential fear that uh stories like that bring me because when it's future and past that at least it's not like a doppelganger where it's like there's another spirit mimicking me you know it's right this is just a glitch in the matrix because at least i know both versions of me are me who i love and trust and know and like i can feel safe to know that like we're both just freaked out at the experience that's a great point but it's still like a okay that's fully a glitch in the matrix how the fuck did that happen how did it happen and also like i feel like that just takes all element of reality away like you clearly we don't know how reality works yeah oh for sure and also in terms of like a glitch in the matrix you would think something like that

where there's a two-parter like you see yourself once and then you see the replay of it you would think if there's a glitch in the matrix and like god or whoever is up there if like if there's a technical difficulty you would think before the second event happens of like seeing yourself again they would like fucking fix it so like you'd be like well that was weird but i'm sure that says something about the hospital system the health care system and you know there's a lot there's a lot going on um but no that's just so creepy like the fact that doppelgangers we've covered hauntings we've covered glitches in the matrix we've i mean there's so many things we've discussed astral projection dreams deja vu it just they kind of find their way in any any type of way it seems like they almost somehow overlap in a lot

of ways which is creepy too because it's like they almost somehow overlap in a lot of ways which is creepy too because it's like wow it's all connected none of this is real it's all connected help help help me okay okay okay i guess it's my turn i story um let me find it oh okay i was like you seem lost christian but i am most of the time um thank you for noticing okay so this is a story that i actually uh heard about on box of oddities while we're shouting out podcasts uh who were who were my pals that you got to meet in florida oh they were so nice aren't they a delight uh cat and jg so much fun um and they i finally got to meet them in person because we were supposed to meet pre-covid and then you know that never happened uh but so anyway i heard about this on their show and uh it's called the red barn murder

and it's something i'd never heard about and it doesn't seem to have been covered on a whole lot of podcasts so i'm kind of excited to do like a little deep dive on this cool all right i'm gonna start off with a quote um you know just just pack a punch here and give you a little taste for what's to come. Oh, I love a taste. I'll give you a little amuse-bouche. Here we go. I never knew or heard of a case in my life which abounded with so many extraordinary incidents as the present. It really appears more like a romance than a tale of common life. What?

What? What? What? on the death of Maria Martin and her stepmother's strange dreams. What? Strange dreams? I'm scared to hit the button because I'm worried I'm going to hit the wrong one. So I'm not going to hit it.

Which one do you want? I'll do it for you. Is that on here? Yeah, didn't you hear me do it? Sorry. I just wanted to see if you'd it again hold on here it is oh that worked really well that works right that's nice i don't know what these other ones are that's beautiful m thank you you know what we could do? Tell me. We could put elevator music on a button. You'd have to hold it down the whole time I was peeing.

You're right. It would never stop. People are like, no, don't give them that power. Okay. So let's get into the story. It's a little bit supernatural as well. So I'm slightly creeping into your territory uh but only a little bit it's mostly a murder story just tipping the toes just a little tiny bit so this takes place

may 18th 1827 a young woman named maria martin left home under some strange circumstances her family waited months for word from her, but nothing came. The story went that she had run off to be with her new husband and she simply didn't have time to write due to all the excitement, but still something seemed off. Maria's family, of course, wanted to believe everything was all right because Maria had unfortunately been dealt a lot of unfair hands, both in romance and just in life in general. So I'll tell you a little bit of her backstory. Maria was born in Polstead, which is a tiny farming community in Suffolk, England.

And her father worked as a mole catcher, which... Hmm. A mole catcher. I waited for him to lift the microphone for that one i i was like this i was like oh okay well i hope that you know that means my attention was grabbed immediate yeah her father was a mole catcher i i guess that's not for the time maybe it wasn't too weird but in 2023 i don't think i've ever heard of that ever being someone's job besides like a terrier but besides a dermatologist i was thinking you know like a mole catcher like a mole catcher well i guess there used to be dog catchers

you know so i yeah at least disney said specifically yeah yeah because i think because it's a farming community and so you know moles can really create a lot of wreak a lot of havoc on your crops all right moles are just not my forte i guess i don't know you know we had moles growing up and they really do tend to fuck up your yard um so i imagine what what is a mole what is a mole oh What is a mole? Oh, M. Like a groundhog? You have so much to learn. There's a character in Germany, and he's a mole. Mm-hmm.

And I used to read all the books. I'm trying to remember the name of the book. And he's this weird-looking mole guy. Mole. What's his name? A European mole? Ew. Oh.

Hmm. Some of these are really not good looking. No, they're very scary. Looks like Alf. Where are its eyes? Do they have eyes? No, they live underground. I think they're blind.

They literally don't have eyeballs? Well, no, they have eyes, I think,'re i don't think they're known for their eyesight they certainly are not because i might with my eyes i can't see their eyes where are what they literally don't have eyes there's literally no that's that's its face oh i found them all okay his name is der kleine maul okay hold on der kleine maulwurf this looks like a jim henson muppet but like that's in storage because it never got finished oh no um this is the german mole i grew up with hang on let me send you a picture moles were a big part of my childhood just because. I've literally never seen a mole until right now.

Are you serious? I wish I never had. Oh, that's the, it's the ugliest animal I've ever seen. Oh, come on. It is not. It's, it beats out that gloppy fish that everyone always shows pictures of with big lips. Oh, that mole's cute. That's a cartoon though.

It has eyes. Okay. He's not that ugly. Oh, that mole's cute. That's a cartoon, though. It has eyes. Okay, he's not that ugly. No, he looks cute, the little cartoon. I mean, the actual mole is not that ugly. Look at this one next to a flower. Christine, look at this. What are you talking about? He's cute.

I'm going to send you this picture because I think you're not all there to be saying what you're saying. Just don't look up the star-nosed mole, because that isn't great for us. The star-nosed? Is there something worse than what I'm doing right now? Yeah, there is. I'll send you a picture of the star.

Yeah, look up star-nosed mole. Star-nosed mole. Oh, my God! Oh, my God, its nose looks like a... looks like the stranger things like it's a little demogorgon it looks like a butthole i'm sorry you are such a it looks like a sphincter that's you know what you know eva just texted let's become obsessed with moles christine in addition to possums so you know what fuck off can rot that is so evil that is so evil i just want the record to show that was not my idea um but i'm on board um megan eventually you're gonna listen to this i know you

are um you have to find the ugliest pictures of star-nosed moles so that everyone's on my side. No, no. Come on. Listen. This is the grossest animal. These poor things are being hunted. Someone's holding it. Ew. Gross.

Well, we've really derailed already. Okay. He finds moles. Great. Okay. Next. Listen, he's a mole catcher. Okay.

Which apparently was an important job at the time. However, it was like a very low class job, like it was something that did not earn a lot of money. So even though it was necessary, it wasn't like a highfalutin job. So his family, unfortunately, was, you know, lived, let's just say, lived an extremely humble life. However, Maria was a very beautiful young woman. Got it. And sometimes that just seems to matter more than the money part. Every time, actually.

I don't know if you knew that. It seems. So despite her family's financial status, she grew up surrounded by local boys trying to win her affection. When she was 17, she fell for a man named Thomas Corder, but his family was pretty wealthy. And so both of them knew that this match would not be approved of by his parents. Tale as old as time. The Mole Catcher's Daughter. A new German fairy tale. I'm still trying to process like that its nose can look like that and that it does, as far as I know,

does not have eyes. It does have eyes. They're just underdeveloped because it's underground. They live underground. They burrow in little mole holes. I've just never seen. They have tunnels. I've just never seen an animal that didn't have like very distinct eyes before. It was just it was a shock. That's all. OK, I'm glad. I hope you recover swiftly. Thank you.

You probably won't, but I hope you do. So she and Thomas actually courted in secret for four years, which in a small town, I think is a long time to keep that under wraps. I thought so too and that kind of all went out the window when mary fell pregnant with thomas's baby uh-oh yeah can't hide that yes precisely so once the baby was born of course they could no longer hide their relationship but what's even more tragic is that only weeks into being alive this baby passed away and this loss put such a strain on maria and thomas

in addition to everybody kind of finding out about this relationship and putting that pressure on them that they parted ways and they couldn't make their relationship last so when she was about 22 maria started seeing an even wealthier man named peter matthews and same old same old at 23 maria gets pregnant with this man's baby damn okay yes and she gives birth to a son whom they named thomas henry who fortunately survives so at least you know that has a good ending to it however peter refused to marry maria or claim his son uh again he came from a pretty wealthy family he didn't want to get involved even though fuck you you've been involved yeah long enough this is your fucking problem to deal with go hunt a mole or something no that's her dad's job he's gonna put him out of business

so he did however volunteer child support uh willingly so i'm at least glad that she was provided for um and he was very reliable with it and paid her well so you know what at least he left and he made sure to support them on his way out so there's that at least maria raised thomas henry among family so her father thomas martin her sister ann martin and her stepmother now this is a little confusing because her stepmother's name is mrs ann martin so basically her dad remarried and the woman he remarried had the same name as one of his daughters so there's and the daughter and then mrs ann martin who's the stepmother got it they all were very close they all deeply loved mary and her son regardless of the circumstances.

And Maria also had a half brother who was her dad and stepmom's son. So this is her half brother. So Maria was admired for being loving and loyal to her family. Her father held her very dear. She was a great writer. She was just pleasant to be around she was just a delightful person and so pretty quickly uh you know that plus her good looks i suppose maria started seeing another man and this guy's name was william quarter and if that last name

sounds familiar it's because he was the younger brother of that first guy she was dating, Thomas Corder. Oh, OK. OK. I was wondering if they were if the how small is the town? Very small. Very small. So she starts dating his little brother and they're once again dating in secret and nobody knows.

A drama. A drama. Also, like, like, that wasn't like a one night stand kind of thing. Like, she was with his brother for like four years in hiding. And lost a baby with him. Yeah, that's an intimate relationship. Right? Like, gave birth to each.

And if you're doing it in secret, like, you're not just doing it for, like, social reasons. Like, you're really in love with this person. Is she also in secret with this guy? Because I'd be pissed if I were the first brother. Okay. They're both secret. And so they are once again dating in secret because he comes from that same family, the wealthy family who would not approve of this relationship. So, of course, now there's almost this double fear of the family finding out like not only does the family not approve but also the brother like you said would probably be pissed if he found out that his

younger brother is now with this woman so they are like really keeping this under wraps and maria once again said fine fine we'll keep this a secret they frequently met in a barn that the quarter family owned on their property and it was locally called the red barn guess what happened next she got pregnant she got pregnant and you know this is time before birth control pills so if you're dating for years it's gonna happen you know it's not a surprise so maria got pregnant pregnant and William swore he would claim their relationship and marry her when the baby was born. Sadly, this baby died also a few weeks after birth. And it's just really, really horrible.

And William still wouldn't go public about their relationship. Why is everyone so ashamed of her? I know, because she's a daughter of a mole catcher. It's really sad. wouldn't go public about their relationship why is everyone so ashamed of her jeez i know because she's a daughter of a mole catcher it's really sad well i mean you know what that pisses me off it's like oh you're beautiful and i want to have sex with you but like nobody can know and i don't want yeah like she wasn't gross when you wanted to get naked with her exactly exactly it's it's it's very telling and like very transparent what's going on here. And it's just sad. So, you know, she really was hoping that this was the time that things actually turned around. But he still won't acknowledge his relationship with her publicly, won't acknowledge the baby. Because she wants to give it a proper burial.

And he doesn't want to because he's worried it'll draw attention to their relationship. And he's like, nope, we got to keep this under wraps. And so what he does is he goes and he takes the baby and buries it in a random field. Oh, wow. That's personal. Great. Yeah. And this really upsets her for obvious reasons.

But, you know, he says, we just don't want it out yet. But I insist on marrying you still. I will take care of you. Bullshit. Yeah, right. I know. It's like at this point, come on. The writing's on the wall, you mofo.

Yeah. So he tells Maria's sister, Anne, that Maria would want for nothing and he would care for her and it's like you know what all she wants is a goddamn diamond ring just give it to her I don't even think she wants that you know I think she just wants you to not be in a barn with her only like she wants you to be proud of her

she wants you to say acknowledge that she is your partner anything it's yeah it's really sad but so of course he's going on all this it's blowing smoke up everyone's ass basically saying like oh don't worry i'll take care of her but things got more complicated because on may 18th of 1827 according to maria's father uh william the the partner the boyfriend showed up at their house frantic and he had shocking news oh god he said mr ballam the local constable had placed a warrant out for maria's arrest oh i already don't believe it. Okay. And the charge was having illegitimate children with multiple men, which was technically criminal at the time.

Oh, okay. Yikes. And the reason for being criminal is because a lot of times churches or local parishes would have to take on the upkeep or the care of these children and so it was considered like putting this burden on the state and church and society which is like okay but didn't the dude do it too no okay just the woman got it oh are you telling me there's something called the patriarchy that's crazy hang on i'm so tired of your extremist beliefs okay tone it down stop talking to me like that, dad. So this is what he shows up.

He goes, there's this charge out for her arrest. We got to go. And so Anne, her sister, said Maria cried all day in despair. But William said, you know what? I'm going to marry Maria. And that way she will be protected. Because if she's married, she won't be you know illegitimately raising these children so Maria got disguised as a man uh in men's trousers a

waistcoat and a hat and was kind of like bustled out of her home and taken away because William was like I'll I'll hide her until we get. Why couldn't you just get married like right now? I don't understand. So he had to go to a different town. This is the story to marry her because in town there was this warrant out for her arrest. So he's like, OK, so they had like crossed lines. Yes. Yes.

Go get married somewhere. Come back with a marriage certificate and be like loophole, you know. OK, got it. So William told Anne he had Maria's clothes in a bag so she could change later once they got past the constable they would go to ipswich and be married the following day and then maria would come home a quote honorable woman and not be accused of this quote-unquote. So they left. But a week later, Mrs. Ann Martin, Maria's stepmother, ran into William out and about without Maria. And she thought, that's strange. Where is she? And he told her, well, we couldn't get married right away. There was an issue with the license. So I sent it to London to get it corrected.

But this might take several weeks to process. And so in the meantime, Maria is staying in Yarmouth on the Isle of Wight with the sister of one of my school friends named Miss Roland, which like we've said it before, but a lot of details, too many details. Like people who make up elaborate lies like to just pepper in unnecessary details at this point i don't even believe that there was ever a warrant out for her arrest i think he was like let me get you out of town so i can kill you and then uh i can finally be done with you being a burden on me wow m you really are on to something here okay i'm just gonna say that is the well i i didn't mean to like i was expecting you to say no there really was a warrant out for her arrest and all

this there wasn't okay well you already really nailed it shit i didn't mean to spoil no no it's not it's not i mean i think everybody was a little wary about that so you're exactly right there was no fucking warrant out i feel like there i mean it just sounds like shitty man after shitty man after shitty man and like usually where there's shitty men there's not a lot of thought there's not a lot of critical thinking so i feel like the murder was not hard to concoct or figure out from here right right no i mean it was like what's the easiest way to handle this here Here we go. And I mean, you're exactly right. So he says, you know, once the license comes back, we'll get married right away. And William came and went from Polstead for weeks. And every time he left town, he would tell her family, oh, I'm visiting Maria

in Yarmouth. Don't worry. She's doing great. She's thriving. And so Mrs. Anne, Maria's stepmother, She's doing great. She's thriving. And so Mrs. Ann, Maria's stepmother, saw William sometimes two or three times a day and was always like, hey, how's Maria? Where is she? And he always said Maria was just happy and doing well and loving life. But the Martins were like, well, we haven't heard from her. And like I said earlier, she was a prolific writer she was you know she was known to to write regularly and they're like it's really weird that she wouldn't just write us a letter to say hi you know it's been like pass a note to you for us yeah yes anything that's a great point I didn't even think of that yeah or just like write a note to send back so you know Maria was not the type to cut contact completely with her family especially because she had had a three year old son at home, too. Like she had to leave. And it was really hard for her to leave her three year old at home to begin with.

So you'd think she'd be trying everything in her power to reach out. Yeah, definitely. So Thomas Martin, Maria's dad, also saw William in town often. By the way, bold to just be showing your face around all the time. You know, it's like like if just get out of town just go away like fuck off if you're gonna pull this stunt i was gonna say if i were to murder somebody you would never see me again you see my breakfast the next day like seriously like this is enough i don't i maybe i just know myself well enough in my level of anxiety I could not fake show

your face having not murdered somebody like I couldn't just go to your house the next day and act like I didn't murder somebody it would be written all over me I would literally never be able to come back if I had a chance of getting away with it yes exactly I feel like the best bet is to just like peace out especially back in days, because it's like it was so hard to track people. I feel like it could have been so. Think of all the murderers that aren't even on anybody's radar. They just got away with it all the time because all you had to do was just not come back. This idiot is like you literally change your name and nobody can track you. And, you know, I mean, we've seen it really change your name. Just say it. You have know i mean we've seen it not even really change

your name just say it you have a different name right not even right not technically change it yeah so this guy's fucking brazen he keeps showing up his her family is seeing him every day and is like where is she and of course they're getting more and more suspicious and every time uh her dad thomas asks this guy like where the hell is my daughter? William would make these vague excuses. For one example, he told her dad that, oh, Maria just has a really sore hand, so she can't write right now. And it's like, that's the world's worst excuse. OK.

I like how that, by the way, like, you could not use that fucking excuse in today's world of why you're not getting back to something. Oh, right. Her hand hurts. My hand is a little crampy. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't work anymore. It doesn't work these days.

So one day, Mrs. Ann Martin's son. So this is the half brother of Maria. And he's 10 years old. He tells his mother, Maria's stepmom, you know, saw william leaving the red barn with a pickaxe a few weeks ago well that'll do it and he just felt weird enough about it that he told his mother and she kind of it stuck with her right so mrs martin went and talked to william about it and said hey my son saw you leaving with this pickaxe a few months ago like what was going on at the barn and he said oh oh he must have confused me with someone else and she was like well he's 10 like he's not an idiot he's not an idiot he can recognize people

he knows it was you it's your barn so you know, it's just a strange thing to lie about. But so she went back to her son who insisted, no, it was William. You know, I can reliably recognize him. And so it was just a weird thing for him to lie about, especially because, like I said, his family owned this barn. Then when they kind of pushed him on it and the son was like, no, it was you i saw william said well i was in the red barn but i was just taking maria there um because she had to change out of her like man disguise and back into her normal clothes and they were like so you were there but then why did you leave alone with a pickaxe um yeah and why why did you say that our son must why

were you trying to gaslight me on my kid exactly you exactly like the second your story starts shifting like red flags so in the meantime one of william's closest friends a man named george gardner asked one day hey whatever came of that girl maria that you were dating awkward right and william uh ever the gentleman responded she's all right i suppose she's in the keeping of mr matthews who is uh who was her ex the ex who she fathered who fathered her baby her son so he just kind of was like man who cares who knows she's back with her with her old man so he's not even trying to keep the same alibi in the same town no no literally not even that's a great point not a not a single fucking thought not a

fucking thought and so basically the friend's like oh okay so he's but and by the way the other guy the father of her child is still in town too so like he's gonna be like no she's not with me you know it's just so it's just stupid it's so stupid god i it's just i know he's not gonna get away with it which makes me happy but if for some reason this were a cold case i'd scream oh that's when we really want to just rip all our hair out yeah no thankfully it does have not a happy ending, but like a conclusion, so to speak. So months go by with no word from Maria. And I really don't know what William thought would happen, like that they were just going to forget she existed, her family.

Like, I don't know what he thought would happen, but he just kept hanging around and she just never showed up. And eventually, when they start pestering him more and more he just leaves town for good he's like actually i'm moving which is i finally you know at least he's finally getting a head on his shoulders yeah get the hint so he leaves town for good and he he tells her family the marriage license finally arrived i'm gonna go off to yarmouth to fetch maria and we will bring her back to visit within the month well Well, obviously they never came back. Maria still didn't write and Maria's dad got three final letters from William himself,

but that was it. So one day in March, Mrs. Martin finally got the courage to tell her husband something that had been bothering her she said to him i think were i in your place i would go and examine the red barn and her husband's like why and she admits i have been having these nightmares about maria oh gosh and apparently they started before christmas so this is march and she said she's been having these dreams since right around christmas time that maria is buried in the red barn oh god and the thing about it was in town, she was actually known, Mrs. Anne, the stepmother, was known for having prophetic dreams. And weirdly enough, this was something that, well, I guess it wasn't weird at all, because think about how people reacted to witchcraft only, you know, 200 years earlier. But she really tried to keep this hidden.

And her husband was like, oh oh that's all poppycock like you know i don't know if he said that word but i'd like to think he did i didn't know anyone on earth ever said that word until oh my dad does so that's where i got it from i guess got it uh but so so interesting okay so i because right off the bat my thought is which maybe she has an issue with gore or something but i feel like if you had a vision that close to home like that physically close to home and that emotionally close to home i would just like maybe want to investigate myself before like saying something like that to her dad and like i don't know that's a personal thing but but the other thing that is much more pressing is like, how fucking stupid can this man be?

Not the dad, this fucking William guy. Because like so he's been going back to the crime scene multiple times. And like he also said they left town. He couldn't have literally brought her out of town. So there was no evidence of this. Like, like, what was the point of this disguise and all this nonsense yeah what was the ruse for like you could have just like i don't understand why you couldn't have at least said there's a warrant out let's go get married bring her to a town while she's alive so she's totally like

like falling for the bit and then get her away from everybody and kill her and there's just never proof like how do you i can't imagine a crime with less thought put into it like yeah it's it's really stupid and it's like of course i'm glad it's stupid because at least it means we got to the bottom of it but like it's almost insulting how brazen and dumb he's being because it's like wow you really thought nobody would fucking figure this out that's what i was about to say it feels insulting because like like she wasn't one of the reasons we hated him off the bat is because she like had done nothing wrong and was like for some reason not worth his fucking time to like commit in any way or profess public adoration for but like even in death she's not even worth thinking about for a death plan which

i know is like such a fucked up thing to say but like never never in a time when she's been a part of your life have you spent five seconds even considering anything like it's i don't know it's and then you're telling stories about her you're not even like committing quote-unquote to the bit afterward you're making shit up and just saying oh she's i don't care she's somewhere else it's very much the narcissist yes yes arrogant confidence cockiness that you can get away with that thing it's exactly that and it's just insulting and upsetting yeah so she's having these dreams and she like i said she's scared to tell her husband because he doesn't believe in any of this he doesn't like her talking about all of it because, again, this carried a big stigma to be like foreseeing the future, you know, and it just was something he was like, let's keep that on the DL. I don't believe in it. And you need to not talk about it and so shut up and she wasn't fond of it either but she kept having these dreams and they happened so often that she finally was like i have to tell him so she tells

her husband let me quote it here i have very frequently dreamed about maria and twice before christmas i dreamed that maria was murdered and buried in the red barn and she these dreams were so sort of realistic or so uh what's the word so convincing that she actually she had never been in the barn before but she said she had seen the inside of it and knew where inside the barn where this murder had taken place so she was almost seeing the inside of it in her dreams it almost makes you wonder if that's also like an astral projection thing your body is like is it a dream or are you really visiting there one soul is finding another or something yes yes so she tells her husband and her husband's like you know what fine i'll go

check out the red barn and i i also think the reason why she didn't go check it out herself is a she's a woman and it's like back in the 1820s you're probably not just gonna go on someone else's property and start like looking through there do you know what i mean oh was it not it wasn't her barn no no it was uh william's family's barn, this whole time I thought he killed her on her own parents. Oh, no, no. And I was like, you're so fucking stupid. No, no, no. His barn.

And so that's why she didn't want to trespass and, you know, look herself. It's probably dangerous. So finally, her husband was like, OK, you know what? Maybe you're right. Let me go check out the barn. So at first, Mr. Martin was like, OK, you know what? Maybe you're right. Let me go check out the barn. So at first, Mr. Martin was like, I don't know, this sounds a little too superstitious for me. It's just a dream. But once Mrs. Martin had one more nightmare and was like, I can't handle this anymore. I insist you go check it out. He was like, fine, I'll go. So he went to the red barn.

He took a man named Botel and they cleaned up the floor for a better view of the dirt. And they noticed one spot that looked a little bit looser than the other floorboards. Okay. And they started pushing dirt aside, and this spot gave way easily, like it had just never been tamped down properly. Mm-hmm. It was only 18 inches deep, and stuck his mole digging device into it. And he pulled out something that seemed to be part of a human body. And so, you know, of course, they dig down and they find a human body wrapped in a heavy sack.

So in some spots, the sack had started decomposing with the body and really all they could see was this green silk handkerchief so mr martin rushed home and asked his wife probably with like dread in his heart what handkerchief was maria wearing the day she left home and she says oh it was a green silk handkerchief and that's when he knew he had discovered his daughter's body so the coroner arrived quickly uh pretty immediately declared it a homicide and a jury was summoned to view the body before burial to get a total glimpse of what was going on and although this was the early 1800s before modern forensics obviously uh the coroner was able to determine that Maria was likely strangled with the green handkerchief she was wearing.

But they think she was killed by a bullet shot to the head with a pistol. Oh, my God. And she had been stabbed several times with a sword. Wow. He fucking really with a sword. He really made sure she was. With a fucking sword. He wanted to know for sure she was not horrible horrible

so maria's sister and martin confirmed the body's identity she was able to recognize maria's hair and her missing tooth on the body and also her earrings clothes and a comb she had on her the martins were brought in to make statements and Anne said she had not seen Maria since May 18th, the previous year when William Corder came to the house to take her away with him. And Anne remembered that he had a gun with him that day because he told her not to mess with it because it was loaded. Oh, wow. OK, good sign. So as the pieces came together, the constable said he had never once had a warrant out for Maria's arrest. And he certainly didn't tell William there was one. So there you go. Already a big fat lie.

Maria was already raising one child with her family and the child was 10 years old at this point and she grew up in this town so despite like any scandals that might have occurred or like the technical criminal behavior uh she was really well liked like the constable was not after her it it was all made up it was all fake so local authorities were quickly convinced obviously that william was responsible for the murder so So April 23rd of 1828, which was almost a year since Maria's disappearance, a man named Constable Ayers traveled to London to arrest William. Now, I have a quick fun fact for you here, which is that Constable Ayers, who went to arrest William, was assisted in this kind of mission by a man named James Lee. James Lee was an officer of the Londonennon police who later led the investigation into Springfield Jack. Shut up. I know.

It's all connected. It's all connected. So Constable Ayers had actually gotten information on where William was from his own brother-in-law, George Gardner. Remember the best friend who was like,

hey, whatever happened to Maria? Oh, yeah. Well, that guy is the constable's brother-in-law uh george gardner remember the best friend uh who was like hey whatever happened to maria oh yeah well that guy is the constable's brother-in-law so he's like oh i know where he is you know i again how did william not think oh the constable's brother-in-law is getting literally he's starting to wonder like he's getting curious and sniffing around and i've just lied to his face yeah and you you know you i don't even i feel like i don't need to see a picture of this william guides know exactly what he looked like and you know that he somehow managed to be 100 purely fucking shocked gobsmacked when the constable was like no there's no warrant out and he found a way to just truly be

flabbergasted that we tried everything work yeah he's like yeah it's it what i'm how i didn't see this coming that people you're 100 onto it because i'm gonna tell you all the ways which he tried to explain what happened okay i love this fucking story by the way christine 100 like you're you're really getting in the care the mindset of this fucking guy it's not hard when the killer is so stupid so oh my god it's embarrassing honestly so yeah he gets from his brother-in-law george uh william's best friend is like oh i know where he's staying in london so he gets the address and this constable goes and tracks down william of course what's weird his address what of course he gave someone his direct address yeah exactly george the one that fucking is related to the constable dummy and so the constable goes to the address and guess who's shocked to see him?

William. William and his wife. Oh, the plot thickens. I just, I gotta tell you. Wow. So his wife, Mary, a little too close to home in my opinion, is like, wait, what? a little too close to home, in my opinion, is like, wait, what?

And so, you know, turns out he had gotten married already within the year of murdering Maria. And he was married to a woman named Mary Moore, who is the daughter of a successful jeweler. And the two of them were already running a girls' boarding school together. And they lived there. Like, they were, yeah, which is also very ew in its own way. I don't want him

anywhere near children no or young women oh no oh no so i have another fun fact here i'm going to tell you how they met turns out william had moved when he moved out of town you know like finally he just peaced out he had placed a lonely hearts advertisement in the times and it basically requested uh women who had some means like who had money who came from money he literally said i need a rich girl yes that's how we're doing this and guess what he received more than 100 replies uh from the times weird i would have thought all of them would have been like, fuck you. Nope. They were like, sounds good to me because he comes from money, too.

So it's like a good match, you know? I guess so. And maybe they were like 21 year old spinsters. They were desperate. Oh, God forbid. God forbid. According to a book about this case by Judith Flanders, he had also placed advertisements in the Morning Herald and the Sunday Times, which received 93 replies in total. But he never even picked those up. He's like,

these hundred will do. I'll sort through these. Can you imagine having access to 200 eligible women who are just like without even looking at you? They're just like, I'm in. Yeah. No picture, nothing. They had no idea what a dummy they were going on i guess i guess not um and they actually ended up publishing all of these letters oh i need all of them i know in in a book the following year okay so here it's by anonymous but here's the name of this book that contained these letters 1828 by anon an accurate account of the trial of william quarter for the murder of maria martin of polstead suffolk to which are added and explanatory preface and 53 of the letters sent by various ladies in answer to quarters matrimonial advertisement that was not long catchy title um also i'm hoping you read that

out of your like amazon cart so because you're buying you went for my birthday just so we're clear i really gotta get my hands on a copy i gotta know imagine all the letters trying to win him over just from that lonely hearts advertisement i mean it's all the lucky women who didn't make it yeah yeah. Yeah. Wow. True. If you go on a date, folks on Tinder or Bumble or whatever, and you set something up and then it ends up just not panning out, you never meet them. They could have been a murderer. Dodge a bullet.

You dodged a bullet. Just just tell yourself, you know, even if you don't know, just tell yourself. Even if they're not a murderer, they could have been this stupid. Could have been a fucking dummy. Mm hmm. Yep. So these are published the following year, which i just think is a delight because sometimes you know nothing really was good back then but the way that they handled the media sometimes gives me a good laugh

like they would just publish this shit and i was like you know what i gotta hand it to them they they at least knew how to entertain you know like? We don't have electricity. We don't have TV, you know? But we do have... Women can't vote. But you know what? We got a good story for you. It's a good old alphabet, and we know how to arrange it in some juicy, juicy strings of sentences. We use our alphabet for entertainment purposes.

Good for you. So when police tell William he is suspected of murdering maria martin he said get this m you're gonna just die he said and i quote i never knew any such person even by name and the guy who's arresting him is the constable that he knows from his hometown like they know each other he's best friends with this guy's brother-in-law it's like like how does it's literally the dumbest thing that's ever happened like how does he look them in the eyes it's amazing like you imagine okay imagine like you're him i'm i'm the constable and you just said i don't know this woman that i've obviously discussed

with you before like the eye roll like i would my eyes would fall into my head i can't imagine i can't imagine the groan that came out of the constable being like that's the game we're playing legitimately and i wonder what you would say because what the constable said was hmm why don't you think carefully i would have laughed in his face i love that's such a classy line why don't you think more on this or whatever i just love like why don't you think carefully because it's sort of like you're treading on thin ice your pal and we both know how stupid you're being so why don't we just take one more shot at this try again it has to be like embarrassing like i can imagine i'm embarrassed so i i hope he's embarrassed i can't imagine you calling me out on like hey where's allison and me

looking you and in the eyes and being like who's allison and i mean yes it's the same fucking thing it's like as if i'd be like do you have a head injury I was gonna say it's almost like you have amnesia all of a sudden like there's no other explanation so he's like try again basically which is what Em would say I think I love the try again game and he continued to insist he never met anyone named Maria Martin which I mean obviously I don't even need to say this but it was such a stupid lie because they grew up together in the same tiny town. His own brother publicly had a baby with her. So like even if people didn't know about their relationship, like he obviously knew who she was. So like dumb.

OK. And so he's arrested. And on the way back to Polstead, police said they were shocked by how casual William was about Maria's death death as if he didn't care at all um which is not surprising to me it's a parent keep going you're gonna like this next part okay they had to stop for the night to stay at an inn uh and so one of the constables handcuffed himself to william to make sure he didn't run away and they had to sleep like that can you imagine having to sleep handcuffed to a murderer no no that's the bravest constable above my fucking payroll yeah not even a little bit i'd be like you're handcuffed to the wall yeah i was

gonna say handcuff to a fucking radiator yeah well i guess you want to make sure like you wake up if something happens but also like where's the like i would handcuff both of his hands at the very least because what if he tries to strangle me? I was going to say he could just turn around and strangle you. Well, anyway, so he got handcuffed to this guy. I guess nothing of note happened that night. William actually wrote a letter to his mom to give her a heads up about the charges. Like, hey, mom, quick side note.

Hey, girl. Hey, girl, some things are about to go down. He also asked her to please host his wife in her home and be kind to his wife and her family on his behalf, which makes me sick because he treated Maria like such shit. And now that he's married to a woman of means, he's like, please take her in and take good care of her. And it's like you asshole i i hope we get an epilogue of where the woman ended up where his wife seriously really pisses

me off so he apologized to his mother in this letter for the shame he was bringing to their family uh he told the constables that in the last two years one of his brothers had drowned and the other two had died of consumption and he was actually the mother's only surviving son. And now she was basically going to lose her last remaining son, which is like horrifying. And this, to be honest, seemed to be the only thing he felt guilty about, which is backwards. But at least he felt guilty about something, I guess. The next day, several magistrates visited William at the inn, along with a clergyman who encouraged him to confess to his crimes and pray for forgiveness. William said he did commit great sins, but this was not one of them.

So I would like him to list what he thinks a great sin is. Yeah. I'll let you round up the rest then just for our understanding. I'm going to be like, I don't know what a sin is. And I'd be like, oh my God. I've never met a sin by name in my life. Okay, sir. Okay.

Then William's brother-in-law, Mr. Moore. So this is Mary Moore's brother, the jeweler's daughter's brother. Does that make sense? The one he married in London who had no idea about his past. The Lonely Hearts winner, loser. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Unfortunately, definitely a loser. Yeah, unfortunately. So her brother showed up on behalf of Mary, his sister, William's wife. And he said to William, how could you send letters that you were living happily with Maria Martin when at the same time you were living with my sister whom you had married? And William said, I shall say nothing about it. So that was the end of that. Once they got back to Polstead and William went on trial, he actually faced nine different charges. This is because the coroner couldn't confirm Maria's cause of death. Hmm.

This is because the coroner couldn't confirm Maria's cause of death. So they were charging him with every possibility, including shooting, stabbing, strangulation and even burying her alive. Just to throw one more on the list. Honestly. Yeah. Yeah. He was also being charged for forgery over cashing a fraudulent check. I will say there was another issue that came up in, I think, one or two of the sources I read that this asshole before Maria had even died. And by died, I mean murdered by him. He had actually they'd gotten into an argument because he had cashed a check that belonged to her.

It was a five pound note, which in today's money is like seven hundred dollars and it had come as child support from the the other guy matthew matthews or whatever his name was he had sent it to support her son and his son and this motherfucker william just went and took it and he's been also like taking he's also been i don't know what the right word is is it embezzling like stealing from her yeah so i don't know if that was the specific charge but he went and just cleaned out her accounts which is like she doesn't have much and this is for her child and you're the one who comes from money but still you're like taking the last of what she has to pay for her son's food.

I think I'm becoming numb to how obnoxious this guy is. It doesn't even surprise me. I'm like, of course. And like this, of course, now is like the least of the problems because he did something so much worse. But it just goes to show like what a shitty partner he was to begin with. But it just goes to show, like, what a shitty partner he was to begin with. So, you know, this being a small town, many of William's own neighbors that he grew up with were subpoenaed as witnesses in the trial. There was a woman named Phoebe Stowes who lived in the cottage right by the Red Barn. And she said that one day in early May of 1827, although she couldn't confirm the exact date, William showed up to her cottage beside the barn and asked to borrow a shovel.

Okay. Uh-huh. And she said she only had one and it was pretty junky, but he said any shovel would work for what he needed it for. So she lent him a shovel and he went on his way. Maria's younger brother was then put on stand and he repeated his statement about seeing William leaving the barn with a pickaxe. A local man claimed he had been hired by William to sharpen his sword, which in my mind shows some premeditation.

Yeah, you don't forget a word like sword. Right. Definitely, definitely noteworthy. Noteworthy for sure. Definitely, definitely noteworthy. Noteworthy for sure. And then, of course, there were the letters from William to the Martins claiming Maria was staying with his friend in Yarmouth. But a quick investigation proved that that was obviously a huge lie and Maria was never there.

William's friend, George, who's just been kind of in the middle of all this, testified that William lied about having a relationship with Maria. And then the constable talked about how, oh, I arrested him. He said he'd never heard of Maria. So basically, they're just piling on to the sky, which he obviously deserves. And so at this point, William has no defense to fall back on. He's cornered. And so his attorney tries to claim that Maria died by suicide. Of course. Right. Right. She so the attorney claims, oh claims oh well they were having an argument and so she took the gun and from him and shot herself and everyone the most sound thing i've heard all day it really really fills in all the gaps right like um especially the part where she got stabbed by a sword like i guess she did that actually she actually grabbed the sword from him

oh i just kept running it into herself she ran into the sword shot herself and strangled herself and buried herself so you know and died all of those ways independently at once yeah it was pretty impressive right so they actually had never met it was what's why oh that's true he wasn't even there he'd never heard of her before you're're totally right. Not a day in his life. Honestly, that's pretty impressive. You're right. You're 100% right. So basically, this is their new claim. And of course, nobody fucking buys it. Nobody thinks that she really took her own life. And actually, William did not seem surprised at all. I think he realized when the jury returned a guilty verdict, he was like, OK, I knew this would happen.

And he was sentenced to hang the following week. So as you can imagine, the trial itself was a circus. People, hundreds of people were gathered outside yelling, singing, dancing. The public had already determined that William was guilty. The judge was not a fan of that. You know, he believed in a fair trial and was worried the jury's opinion would be skewed. But it didn't matter because William was like. He just kind of accepted his sentence. He didn't really try to appeal or anything like that. The day before William's execution, he signed a confession with a new version of what happened.

He said, oh, well, now I'll tell you what really happened. So buckle up. He said they got in an argument in this barn. And when Maria grabbed his arm in anger, he instinctively pulled out his pistol and accidentally shot her. Oh, wow. Someone's trigger happy. Yeah. And also, like, he said he didn't stab her and i'm like okay then who's like the new someone came in and poked her with a sword 40 times it doesn't make any sense

so he's like no i shot her for sure for sure for sure but i didn't stab her even though my sword was really sharp like come on idiot so i don't know if he's just trying to get into heaven or what like i really don't know by saying it's an accident but he does claim this is an accident um and so you know the execution goes forward it's a spectacle uh is the uh what do you call it understatement of the century between seven and twenty thousand people showed up we don't know the exact number reporters were especially shocked by how many women were there because apparently a hanging was not considered appropriate for women especially women with wealth and standing i actually have a quote about this which is is kind of fun. So, OK, according to one account, the number of respectable ladies present is at once a convincing proof of the intense curiosity which prevailed in this county to witness every action of quarter.

For we are sure that nothing but this could have induced respectable females to have been present to witness a catastrophe so uncongenial with the delicacy of their sex one lady when gently chided for being present said that she had a right to witness the end of the man who had inhumanly butchered one of her sex oh i'm like yeah yeah girl she's like you know what he murdered one of my kind so i can be here fuck you i i'm also okay so here's the thing my brain did that thing where i heard flowery words and started just shutting down oh yeah i figured maybe that would happen but i know that if that happened to me that certainly happened to him and i like that she humbled him that way. Yeah, she absolutely humbled him, which I love. Basically, they were like, oh, this is such a unwomanly event. Why would you come here?

And she's like, you know what? He killed one of my own so I can be here. And listen, I don't agree with public hangings. That's the least of what I like, you etc i think we know that that's for sure yeah so but but in general i just think that's a lovely like uh retort it's a yeah it's a good comeback of like fuck you he did this i'm allowed to do it like i'm allowed to be here for my kind me also like why are you chiding this stranger for being there like fuck off anyway it just really pissed me off so i actually have a

picture um i have a couple pictures here this is a crowd uh that had gathered at the hanging um which just kind of goes to show like how many people it's a drawing uh depiction i'll send it to the group yeah oh wow that's a lot of people it's a big crowd that's hundreds of people and again this is like a really small town so this was people were coming in from all over coming in from all over which i can't i can't process the fact that people used to travel to watch someone get executed that's beyond and like have picnics and shit yeah well we could get into that forever so in his final moments william addressed the huge crowd and he said i am guilty my sentence is just i deserve my fate and may god have mercy on me i was gonna say let

me guess now he's doing it for jesus for god of course of course all of a sudden so he can get into heaven in the last moment well obviously m so i have one more photo here oh okay so it's like a it's like a sketch of the hanging itself and i just it's so wild to me that at the top it says this print is given gratuitous so like this print is given for free to the purchasers of weekly dispatch so basically if you bought that paper like you got this fun free print this poster included like when i used to get magazine subscriptions i always wanted like the the centerfold it was like a like a tiger beat poster of like dream street but with this magazine you can get a hand-drawn sketch of someone who was at the execution a noose jeez louise oh my god oh and don't worry it also explains at the bottom here um let's see hangman hang the hangman is adjusting the rope around the prisoner's neck while an assistant

is supporting the wretched man okay well anyway if you have to caption your drawing, your drawing probably wasn't that good. Great point. I mean, it was a great drawing, but I think I think I'm sensing some insecurity from the artist. Yeah. Yeah, I think we get it. So that is the picture. So there were a couple rumors that kind of circulated afterward. And this one is pretty wild. I don't believe it's true, but it's it's interesting how people's minds work. One of the rumors was about the dreams Anne was having. And Anne, the stepmother, was actually only a year older than Maria. So her stepmother was only a year older. And one rumor stated that she, the stepmother, and William Corder had been having an affair as well.

What? And that the two had planned the murder to dispose of Maria. And that her quote unquote dreams were just a way of getting William pinned down for this so she could be free of the drop like free of the of the blame but again this seems like quite a stretch um what a stretch yeah it sounds more like if they were in on it together she got guilty and like used for that but also like honestly I'm surprised this story ended without all of the men turning on the woman with like relatively witchy gifts like i know that could have so easily and i can understand like a hundred years earlier it probably would have gone that way i mean how easy like oh you're only a year different than his daughter you're jealous

of her or something like she's so beautiful she's so loved around town yeah i know you're totally right and that's probably why she spent months not saying anything about her dreams, you know? Yeah. So once this guy was hanged, his body was put on display for a whole day with the skin of his chest peeled back so that everyone could see his muscles. What? Why? Because it was the 1820s. I don't't know what the fuck is the reason for that oh it

gets weirder so they hang on hang on sorry okay say it again say it again he got they they skinned his chest uh-huh they put him on display with the skin of his chest peeled back to display his inner muscles okay and this was basically just put like since he's a criminal basically they were like well we can kind of do anything we want and since the average person wasn't able to like see something like this in their everyday life thousands of people came by to like witness this so they turned this into a fucking science class or something yes wild and they also did a demonstration in front of students at cambridge where they attached a battery to his limbs to demonstrate the contraction of muscles and like how you could kind of make a body move even after death which is so disturbing god uh-huh

um and now i have one more photo for you here or one more picture if it says muscles contracting from a battery christine sorry i won't i promise i would not be doing that um so here's just like a little uh penny dreadful uh-huh of uh of this story it's just like a little that's violent yeah it's kind of disturbing and this was turned into like a whole theater play like people it just had so many different aspects to it like the the murder the uh the supernatural dreams the execution definitely could be thrown in as a theater production yes and it was here's actually i'm sending you a picture now um of an illustration of a man doing a puppet show for children of okay that's a lot it's called

the murder of maria martin in the red barn for kids and at the bottom interestingly it says the peep show which you know you just take that and run with it i guess so uh i have another random fun fact for you which is that doctors uh they didn't have access to his brain so they used his skull and did some phrenology on it um you know where you kind of touch the bumps the bumps and all that uh which you, this is my my time to point out that phrenology is a totally bogus science and is rooted in everything bad. So racism, sexism, eugenics basically has been used over the centuries to prove that certain races are superior. And it's all bunk science. Obviously, none of it's real.

So, you know, just just so everyone's aware of what you will with that. Yes. But so, of course, they examined his brain, him being a criminal and all or not his brain. I'm sorry, his skull. And they they determined that the parts of his skull that represented secretiveness and destructiveness were more developed. But then the areas that housed good traits like benevolence and kindness were underdeveloped. It's like, OK, well, I could have told you that from not looking at his skull. I was going to say, I think anyone with like, I don't know, two ounces of common sense could have said all that yeah exactly like i don't

need his bones to tell me um so in the final act of his sentence william's body was flayed uh his skin was tanned and used to bind a book what was the book oh let me tell you the book? Oh, let me tell you. Was it the book about his 93 love letters? Oh, wait, no. What? Sorry. I thought you were going to say. It was a book about his crimes. So it was the story of the Red Barn murder.

And then they bound the story in his own skin. That feels like it's its own crime. I mean, to me, at least least so who would want to pick that up i mean i know i was gonna say i get it no i don't i know i was gonna say like to hold a book like that was of the person i know that was like a person oh kind of a common thing back that not a common thing but like remember there was one in boss a library in boston that had like books made of skin yeah it was like kind of a thing but i don't really this seems just like kind of showy and weird um and so yeah so they basically wrote a

book about his crimes and then made the book out of his skin. I was like, what the fuck? That is crazy. If there was a museum for serial killers, like the Zach Bagans Museum, there's the room that is all about serial killers and there's Charles Manson's actual glasses and shit. And it is weird to be so close to that stuff and not in an enjoyable way, by the way, it's like very gut wrenching.

And I guess if you're into that kind of stuff to hold a book about a criminal and it's made of the criminal. Yeah. Yes. If that's your thing, but yeah. Other than that, I can't imagine wanting,

it's the same concept of like, would you wear a shirt that a killer wore? It's like, do I want shirt that a killer wore it's right do i want to read a book while i'm touching of his skin the killer no no i'm not even a little bit to be honest i'm super good thank you i'm super good without that um so this is the last of it basically his widow mary moore um apparently advertised for sale the glasses he was wearing at the trial so i guess to make some money off it i'm not sure i just said yeah someone's gonna probably buy it and a tobacco box that featured maria's face on it which is like oh i don't know about that um and so the book

itself and uh the other remains including his death mask that they had made, are actually still on display in Suffolk at the Moises Hall Museum. So if you really are interested, you can go see it. In 2007, a woman who was apparently distantly related to William, though not by blood, requested that these items be taken down and buried in a respectful manner. But a man more closely related to William and by blood said, nope, I'd like them to stay in the museum. So in the end, the woman withdrew her request and the display remains today. Wow. Huh. The end and what a scandal what a man you really that was a good roller coaster man you know when i say good one i obviously don't mean good one but that was um definitely one full of banter that's one that yes if i were sitting at a restaurant and i overheard someone telling that story i'd be like girl what like i'd be like em are you listening to anything i'm saying you'd

be like no because you are not as interesting as people at that table christine shut your mouth we'll talk later i was like we're listening there are times so you know you're in good company at a restaurant when uh you're sitting there and both of you without saying anything like mutually agree to shut up because it's my favorite activity it's my favorite um i'm just gonna send you a picture of the red barn too while we're at it but basically uh the red barn just like everything else that seems to have happened in that era excuse me was taken apart piece by piece by looky loos who wanted to come and storm the crime scene. And so people were taking planks of wood and like making souvenirs and just, you know, all that gross stuff. So it basically was like picked apart.

But here is a an illustration of it from back in the day. Wow. Well, Christine, well done. Thank you you i'm sorry it was so long i i really thought oh this is gonna be a short one it whenever there's an opportunity i had like 45 minutes worth of things to say about that stupid fucking mole with i was gonna say i had you at mole and then we were kind of downhill from there so to speak i stand by what i said that mole looks like a pokemon gone wrong it's there's something it does look a little bit like a pokemon glitch and you kind of like forgot it's half its face or like yeah you certainly forgot the eyes and the nose okay i see it all right you know what um someone who listens probably has a mole and is

incredibly offended i'm sorry but i'm offended so it's honestly it's a shock to the system when you see an animal without a face um please okay well anyone thank thank you uh so much for listening and uh when this comes out we'll be almost 31 and 32 that's so beautiful we started this at 24 and 25 dear lord not to like totally age us

can you save that for sad happy hour please because I'm not ready to discuss it alright if you guys are if you're part of our patreon you you want to go to us, talk more because two and a half hours was not enough for you. You can do that. We're going to go have an after chat.

So we'll see you there. All right. Sounds good. Oh, I've never get used to this. And maybe when I'm when I'm 40, that's why we drink.