And That's Why We Drink - E336 An Armoire of Brandy Snifters and Mug Madness

Episode Date: July 16, 2023

It's episode 336 and we have arrived... LEONA HAS SAID THE WORD "MOTHMAN". We've got one of our favorite episodes up this week, starting out with Em's deep dive into the UFO encounter of Snippy the horse - which sounds fun but, content warning, is one of the first documented cases of UFO related animal mutilations. Then Christine brings us the biggest true crime case we've never heard of in the Hall-Mills murders, that involves some wild town gossip and the rise of tabloids. And if you're the Mug CollectorTM of your relationship, show us your mug shots! ...and that's why we drink!Don't miss Beach Too Sandy, Water Too Wet's last two shows of the summer! beachtoosandy.com

okay last time we did zencaster things were very chaotic so let's hope we did it right this time yes uh and until further notice things are 15 seconds and we're good yeah we're rolling and we're not stopping yet. Okay, great. Now we're just going to watch the timer the whole time. I know. Well, we'll be waiting for some notification that's like, I don't know, the error sound from Microsoft Word that's like, I feel like I'm going to hear that from childhood or something.

That one? Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's the one. You nailed it. Hi. Hi, how are you's what's your vibe today you feel low energy to me and i don't like it i am low energy i like keep falling asleep during the day which is not normal for me so i'm like i'm i don't know i probably my iron's screwed up again because i always stop taking iron and i'm like i'm fine now and then you know christine goes away i'm drinking my large mcdonald's iced coffee classic maybe um maybe throw some iron in there yummy speaking of mcdonald's are you in on the the grimace shake train do you know about this trend

no i know about the grimace birthday but i don't know about the shake trend what's that oh oh you missed it but it was it's it's about to be over because i think it was just during june but well it was my favorite tiktok trend there's um so grimace there was a shake in honor of his birthday and by the way for people who don't know who grimace is because allison learned this month no okay because i was judging gen z so hard because they were like what is a grimace and i'm like who are you people like where are you from i'm not even barely from this country and i know who grimaces alison didn't know god damn he was my he was my favorite character of the mcdonald's crew he was my well the

hamburglar but really a delight in in the worst way but grimace is a champion i don't know how people don't know who he is it's his freaking birthday grimace is a good time he was ronald mcdonald's best friend and uh but so anyway they made a shake for him which the whole mystery originally was what does it even taste like? Because it was kind of just a vague purple flavor. It was just purple flavor. Some people were saying it would taste like a wild berry thing. Anyway, but so TikTok started this trend, I guess, from that mystery.

And like some people not knowing who Grimace was that like it turned into like if you drank the milkshake something spooky would happen to you and then it turned into like oh grimace is after you wait what oh it became a whole thing but then but then it it turned and now everyone feels really bad because now there's a trend going where everyone's showing like collages of like the most horror centric or cinematically scary tiktoks people made after they drank a Grimace shake. And then they're showing a picture of like Grimace from the 70s as a little kid. And it's like he just wanted to celebrate his birthday and all of you made fun of him. I'm so upset.

It's truly go look at my Instagram after this because I posted one of the TikToks that are like that. But I was fully invested in like the horror movie of Grimace and who is Grimace and he's coming to get you. And then all of all of the videos started turning into like pictures of like little Grimace and how he's so sad no one wants to celebrate. I mean, the fact that his name is Grimace, if you didn't know who he was, you'd be like, what the fuck kind of a name is Grimace? So I do get like immediate distrust. Every time we did a lot of road tripping recently, we stopped at a lot of McDonald's with Leona. And every time they're like trying to push those grimace shakes on me.

And I'm like, I'm good. I'm in the car for 12 more hours. I think my tummy can't handle purple flavor right now. We'll just stick with the usual. I am upset I never tried it, but I feel like i've tasted it based on everyone else's talking yeah i feel like maybe you know better than you think what it actually tastes like anyway i'm glad you're drinking mcdonald's um guess guess why i drink this week do you want to ask me i do want is it because you saw taylor swift oh no but that was definitely

highlight of my life for sure for sure what what leona said mothman she started saying mothman it wasn't even like she has a book i think you got it for called either you eva or i don't know it's called baby mothman and she we read it before bed every night and the other day she was like mom mon man baby and i was like you just said mothman baby I can't believe myself my ears right now so it's all it's the it's the ultimate maternal goal isn't it it was and I feel like I've like exceeded all my parenting expectations but the fact that I couldn't immediately call you because I had to wait for us to record was so annoying so I'm needs to know this and we were just talking the other day you

were asking me like what words does leona say and that night she said mothman and i was like oh my god i have to wait three days to tell em but anyway that's the big news on my end and i feel like it's pretty groundbreaking well nothing i have to say after that the whole episode is over now well imagine if she said grimace if she goes gwyneth with like a double lisp she says ote which i always thought was just kind of like a cliche thing but she's like ote and i'm like whoa kids actually do say that ote oh it's so sweet well so now that she said mothman we have to collect all of the cryptids out of her mouth. So try to get Bigfoot next. I feel like Nessie's probably easy, right? Nessie, Bigfoot.

Can she do S's yet, though? Nessie? Or would it be like Nettie? She calls her pacifiers her passies. And she has a teacher called Miss Cassie, and she calls her Miss Passie. That's precious. So I feel like she could probably say nessie okay cool okay and she has messy books and stuffed animals so you know

we have some teaching tools to utilize we all did a very good job of uh preparing her for indoctrination i mean literally like you had you threw me a surprise baby shower that was cryptid themed like she was this was destined well you know what else was destined remember when i found that happy halloween banner and i cut out the letters of it it's spelled like happy leona or something it literally spelled happy leona like the word leona is in halloween the word leona is also very close to lemon which i did not realize until literally my child was born and someone commented on my Instagram post. And I was like, well, it's too late now.

It's so yeah, she's destined for some spooky things. I hope she knows that. I think Christine. Well, how was Taylor Swift before we do anything else? I got to say, I feel like I played it down so much when I was like, I forgot I was going. I gotta say I feel like I played it down so much when I was like I forgot I was going um I it was like the best and I cried because you cried yeah there was I cried during Enchanted because that was the first song that like my brother told me like the the lore about years and years and years ago and I got just so into that song. And that was like my entry point into Taylor Swift.

And so I cried when that came on. It was. Oh, but I met I met a listener who gave me one of her Swifty bracelets, like the beaded bracelets. And and some body glitter. She put body glitter on me. And I said, I said, what's your era? And she said, well, my name's Sarah. So I'm in the Sarah era. And I was like, whoa. They said, well, my name's Sarah. So I'm in the Sarah era. And I was like,

whoa, they said, I'm, I have my own fucking era. Yeah. I was like, enough said, I'm not going to question you any longer.

Well, uh, did you, uh, practice your one, two, three, let's go bitch. Or that was so funny.

The person behind me, the girl behind me was like with her dad and she shouted it but like too early and then she was so embarrassed but then i knew it was coming so i got to do it with everybody and i turned around i was like thank you for doing she's like i'm sorry i was like no no you warned me so that i knew when to do it with everybody else she gave me like a heads up okay so i feel like that was like i somehow like actually projected into that person's body to give you a cue i was like i know you didn't learn in time horrified and i was like no no that was your soul preparing me for the moment don't worry i do i do feel so bad for her

though because she's probably not ever going to see taylor again and it was her one time i feel so bad for her okay well that's she might she might see taylor again i don't think this is the end that girl was probably she has to go now just to redo it she has to oh god anyway it was really funny and i turned around and she started apologizing to me i was like imagine if i was actually mad at you for that like what an insane thing to do and feel um but but thank you i uh i felt very prepared because of you m and because of your astral soul projecting into the teenager behind me it's a lot of work to make sure you're on top of things but that's especially when it's just pop culture trends nothing else but it's just

taylor and grimace yeah yeah at least i knew who Grimace was, okay, Allison? Okay, well, I don't really have a reason to drink this week, except I got myself a new cup, and I love her. I love her. I'm sorry, where did you get that? Girl, sorry, the ice is probably rattling on the microphone. That looks like Grimace threw it up. I liked it because it's giving ectoplasm it is and it's much more neon than it looks on camera like it's very like it's burning my retinas so i don't know how much more neon i could get m's holding a neon green like it looks like slime colored cup with a

purple lid a grimace colored lid um so there's nothing i love more than a bright neon dark purple contrast there's just nothing better it's true nothing like it and um i have been one of those people where every time i go to starbucks which feels like 15 times a day sometimes um every time i go i look at the shelves and i always point out a cup and i go oh that one's cute oh if i had to go when i'd get that one, that one's cute. Oh, if I had to go in, I'd get that one. Oh, that one's nice. I've done that. And I've never, I've always kept it together. And we know I love an impulse buy and I still have never done it.

That's impressive, by the way. And not only, I didn't even go to Starbucks and see this on the shelf. I saw someone say on TikTok, by the way, Starbucks released their summer colors. Oh, you went to find it. This was one of the ones that they showed. And I went, it must be mine. So I went out of my way to go find it instead of just like window browsing. Yeah, that was, you know, that was me with my cup.

I've never ever bought a cup. And then one day I went in and they had this really tall, my pink to blue. And then you were like, those are bi-colors. And I went, oh, yeah, maybe that's why I was like, I need that. But it was so beautiful and kind of studded. And I had no self-control. I was like, I must own this immediately. There is one mug of theirs I've gotten, which was, if anyone remembers, like six months ago,

they were really pushing these like teal blue ceramic mugs. And I one of those and now I have this one and now I have a mug and I have a water cup and I can never do it again but that's okay Em tells me all the time we're forbidden from buying them more mugs and then they go out and buy their themselves mugs and I'm like god Christine I literally got a mug this morning no you, you didn't. What is wrong with you? Like, and the worst part is there's so many mugs that I want to get you. And I'm always like, no, Em's going to kill me. And then like holidays, sometimes you give me two mugs. And I'm like, wait a minute.

Why is this a ban from me to you, but not the other way around? Like you think I don't have too many mugs? Because, okay, it's because I don't really have a real reason except I'm trying so hard to be good about mugs but I always I'm my worst enemy I because at least I put boundaries up with everyone else but I still fucking slip when it comes to myself buying mugs and Allison has told me so many times we're not allowed to have any more mugs I'm more scared of Allison if I'm being honest I'm more scared of Allison yeah I mean I kind of knew in the back of my mind like this wasn't really about me and m this is allison would kill me if i added more fucking

annoying mugs to your collection but oh i love a good mug but you know what recently i've gotten by the way allison while you're listening to this i got a bone to pick with you let's discuss right now oh no it's because okay so here's the thing realistically no one needs more than one mug maybe two when i come cleaning day or you know but uh we have easily easily like 40 mugs between the two of us there's it's just too many always but and and i understood her cries when she was like please stop the madness i want out i don't want these mugs anymore madness and i thought you know what that's a fair request and then someone really got into like the world of cocktails and homegirl literally is gonna go take a like a bartending like six week night class about becoming

like a full blast bartender what for fun and she first she takes an she takes an excel course in college and then in her 30s she's like i'm gonna learn how to make cocktails what is going on with this one she she has become so so into bartending and so into cocktails she demands that she by the way we're a family of two one of us does not drink. You don't drink alcohol. And she has demanded that we have every type of glass, every type of mixer, every type of shaker. So I don't know the words to everything. But our entire cabinet, which you've seen our kitchen, we are very fortunate to have a massive amount of cabinets. All of it filled with glassware that only she can use. So I'm like, you know what?'m gonna have my mugs that's and that's that you know what i mean you know what yeah you get

your own little drawer of mugs and that'll be your man cave thank you i feel like a dirty little a dirty little gremlin now because every time i get a new mug i kind of go i test the waters i'm like just hide it i'm like look what i got and then if she says something, I'm like, let's investigate your wardrobe. Oh, so you're ready to just whip open all the cabinets like a fucking poltergeist. Your armoire of brandy snuffer sniffers, whatever they're called. So anyway. Your armoire of brandy sniffers. What the fuck is happening at your house right now?

Anyway, it's a hot button issue with us where uh we just we don't have any room for plates we literally christine all the cups in the world we own four fucking plates four like if five people came over for dinner we wouldn't have enough you take a cooking class and you can buy any plate you want be like it's for my new hobby we literally if we if we haven't done the dishes recently we just don't have plates like that's that's it we it's but but we have enough cups probably to last the entire year without washing a single one so anyway anyway you know what i'm back to mugs so give me all the mugs you want oh allison's so scared right now i can feel it i said it and i do i do she hated it

i'm happy to be out of this equation. I'm just going to remove myself and just let you two handle this one. Anyway, that's why I drank because apparently Allison and I are going to duke it out over the mugs when she hears this episode. I think a lot of people, including myself, can relate to that, so don't worry.

If you are in a relationship with somebody and you're the mug collector, please post your pictures and tag us. We'd like to see your mugs oh yeah especially if you have some like quirky cool ones you know oh i love a quirky cool mug you have no idea eva got me a mug she's been breaking the rule by the way she's already because you break the rule every time and it's like you know what at a certain point even i were like what fuck it like fuck it if m's breaking the rules we're breaking the rules well for my birthday she got me a mug that it looks like a golf course and there's a hole cut out at the bottom and it comes with a little golf club and ball and the mug is the hole in one so

while you're come on how could we not buy you that like I mean and the golf club is a pen like how could even not look at that and go I mean I'm gonna skip this one are you kidding like hello what do you expect anyway so um also since we're talking so much about drinking and the show is literally called and that's why we drink and like 300 and a half episodes later i am starting this trend this is your daily reminder to drink some water you hydrated hydrated well i guess dehydrated uh funky people i don't know i couldn't i didn't finish the insult in my brain so but everyone drink some water okay i'm drinking coffee does that count

sure today yes it has a lot of vanilla in it and with that maybe we should start our stories today christine let's do it let's do it And with that, maybe we should start our stories today, Christine. Let's do it. Let's do it. Okay. I think you'll like this one. I think there will be parts where you hate this one.

Uh-oh. What? But I think you'll like it at least for the title. Are you ready? Yes. This is the story of the UFO abduction of Snippy the horse. What the F is happening? What?

Okay. Okay. So before we get into it, I know you're very excited. I have to bring you completely down really quick because there is a content warning. The horse dies. This is the first case of UFOs being linked to animal cattle mutilation. I'm so sorry. Oh, no. Well, thank you for appreciating how sensitive I am like a big baby.

I talk about dead people all day and then it's like fucking a cow and I'm like crying over here. The irony is a little obvious but i know i understand though there's no controlling it i can't explain it well so i will if someone else is also um sensitive to animal i don't know if cruelty is the right word because we don't actually know what happened but mutilation um i'll bring it up when the time comes but it's it's gonna be quick okay but it the rest of it is worth it's it's gonna be quick okay but it the rest of it is worth it because this is the abduction of snippy the horse so you know and if you're a horse girlie this is for you yeah this is for you um and now me vicariously yeah

today christine is a horse girl i i am and i i i i i. I was trying to go with a horse pun. I was trying to go with a horse pun that rhymed with nay, and I couldn't think of one. You could have just said nay, not true. I don't know. Well, I could have, but that wouldn't have been funny either. I could have said, I could have said um this is anything this i'm here for the main attraction oh that's a good time did you google that no oh but that would be hilarious if i just fucking googled horse pun let me look at it do you remember that um that time i found

all my old like childhood homework and i sent you a picture of one of them? Oh, my God. I've never had such a delightful evening in my life. I miss that day. And I was like, look what I found. Do you remember when I showed you that thing? I don't know why I saved it. It has to be because of how ridiculous it was.

But I drew, I colored in a pear. Like it was the i drew i colored in a pear like it was a it was a like the shape of a pear and apparently i had to name it because i like it's it has like a spot for me to have written something on its belly and it was a pear with a smiley face and it just says horse on it and i don't and i i guess i named it horse i don don't understand, but I love her. Oh my God. I want that frame. I saved her. I want that frame so bad.

Once I'm done treasuring it, I will send it to you framed. Oh, speaking of frames, I found this picture all over again. It's my, oh shit. I found this picture all over again. It is my favorite picture of you and me, Christine. It makes me so happy every time i love that photo of us i also intoxicated it looks so blurry it looks just like you it looks like me in a blur yes it does my dress is like falling off of my boobs it's

my wedding dresses it's my favorite picture of us i love that photo i'm gonna find a place to put it in our it's so cute okay back to snippy the horse okay i won't stir up any more trouble i googled that one hang on hang on wait what was the sound that was the sound oh shit no i was trying to find the yeah i hope you i hope you accidentally hit the clapping next okay i'm just gonna pick one one pick a color i have no idea which one is which green oh man that was the right one Okay, well, okay, so here we go. This is the first or one of the first cases of UFO-connected livestock mutilation.

Snippy is a three-year-old, and I'm sorry if I'm saying this wrong, but I think I'm saying it right, Appaloosa. A three-year-old Appaloosa, which means that she... That sounds great to me. Do you know what Appaloosa is? What's a she? I don't. It sounds like Appalachia, but I don't know. So Appaloosa is the type, the design of your horse.

The design. I'm sure it's the breed, but I've been... Oh, Eva knows. Oh my God, Eva literally says, as a horse girl, I know it's a spotted horse. Whoa. Yes. So she's got spots. Holy shit. I didn't says, as a horse girl, I know it's a spotted horse. Whoa. Yes. So she's got spots. Eva. Holy shit.

I didn't know Eva was a horse girl. I did. That might have been before our time. Is she still a horse girl, Eva? No, former, former, former. Former horse girl. Okay, that makes sense. We talk about this stuff when you're asleep in the back seat. I know. When we're on tour and I wake up, the two of you seem much more bonded than you were before

and i'm like i missed something really intense has spots on its butt and you're like i'm going back to sleep now i don't want to be part of this so snippy is a three-year-old appaloosa mare which means that she she's a she um and uh she was born and raised in the San Luis Valley of Colorado on Harry King Ranch. And this is in the 1960s. And it's in the town of Alamosa, which that threw me for a second because I was like, she's an Appaloosa that lives in Alamosa. And I was like, that could be a real interesting like children's song. Seriously, at least Alamosa is not in Appalachia, because then we'd be in big trouble. If the song were an Appaloosa in Alamosa, not Appalachia, that would be real crazy.

That would be the world's worst song, but okay. Someone with music writing experience, please create that song. Thank you. So in Alamosa, the population is just a small town like 6 000 people and then the rest of it is much more rural uh and just to step aside really quick and give you a very vague very very quick summary of colorado's history with ufos is that from 1947 to 69, the government investigated over 12,000 UFO slash alien encounters for Project Blue Book, which I have not covered yet, but we will eventually. That's the government project that was studying UFOs during that time.

And in the 60s specifically, the government was trying to decide if Project Blue Book was worth continuing so the air force commissioned an astrophysics professor uh named edward condon to investigate ufos and extraterrestrials to like i guess join the force or something um and his findings he became known for writing this thing called the Condon Report. Okay, I feel like I've heard his name before, so that makes sense. I would like to also eventually cover him, but this is why it's too overwhelming to cover right away. It's because the Condon Report is over 15,000 pages long.

Oh my, pages? Oh Christ. Pages, not even words. I know. pages long oh my pages oh christ pages not even words i know i know it was written collectively by 37 scientists oh my god and it was called instead it wasn't called the condon report it just became that its official name is scientific studies of ufos um and so he wrote this after the government had him join on in the 60s. And ultimately, he decided after 15,000 pages of writing, he decided that there is really no reason for the government to continue any UFO investigations. It took him 15,000 pages to decide that. I know. I know.

Oh, my God. That's exhausting. i know i know oh my god that's exhausting also um i guess even though he was trying to say like oh ufos aren't worth looking for this was in like the 60s right after the 50s which is when like ufo craze was a thing so fair point so you can say it's not really worth your time but it's already in the zeitgeist it's too late um and of the of when project blue book was doing all their studies when they studied like 12 000 different et cases uh just to give you an idea of what they came to understand about ufos or what they released not to sound like a conspiracy theorist here but from what they're willing to publicly say out loud is that out of 12 000 reports only 700 of them are still unsolved which means they solved 94 of their cases okay bullshit i call bullshit that's what i think that's what i think so diplomatically, like allegedly they're like, boo, liars. Well, then you said it and then I kicked the door open and I was like, yeah, me too.

I was like, I just wanted to hear you say it first. We need one other person on our team. Yeah. So that makes it feel a little less overwhelming if I wanted to cover Project Blue Book because then I only have to care about six percent or seven seven hundred cases um but and i get that i do get a lot of them could easily be debunked with something or natural causes or a weather balloon or whatever but i feel like there's no way only six percent I feel like now that the government has straight up said aliens are real or whatever that announcement was a while ago. I feel like we should look back at Project Blue Book and maybe like, you know, look, just do one more glance over the cases.

Yeah. But I feel like that's still a lot. Like, like, however, 700 unsolved cases. Exactly. So maybe that is it. But like like that's still a lot in my opinion like even if one of those cases were unsolved or were a mystery that still counts right like i know jim harold says this all the time but even if one ghost story out there is true yeah then what then it's real like you don't need to prove that they're all real, you know?

I love Jim Harreld. Me too! That immediately made it so much more comforting. And not really, because it's like, oh, aliens must be real. Anyway, so the Condon Report, if you live near Colorado University, they own the Condon Report Report and it is now in their rare and distinctive collections. Cool.

I so badly want to go look at it. Me too. So badly. And I will say this, despite Condon claiming that the UFOs weren't anything to worry about, this was in 1969,

two years before, there were so many reports in this area of Colorado where Snippy the Horse happened, there were so many reports in this area of Colorado where Snippy the Horse happened. There were so many reports in the San Luis Valley that one paper in the area actually said that they were being, quote, downright plagued with UFOs. Oh, my God. But then two years later, Colorado. But then two years later, he comes up with this like famous report that says UFOs aren't really all that important but it sounds like all six percent of true stories happened

in San Luis Valley yeah the poor snippy is getting like no respect here yeah like put some dignity on her name you know she's been through a lot she has and you're about to hear how much she went through. So before we get into it, I just want to say, I just kind of touched on it, but Snippy was not the first story in this area. They really were, quote, plagued by UFOs. It seems like everyone had a story. There's a story of one student who saw a strange figure in the field. And when they drove toward it, both of their rear tires blew out at the same time um there were people who were seeing black triangular objects flying in the sky there were multiple people who were being followed by objects for miles um that were flying around above them there's also one story of two deputies who are

being followed by an orange globe um but that they didn't report it because they were afraid of losing their jobs. So that's also another thing about Project Blue Book is how many of them weren't reported. Great point. Great point. Another story is that there was this well-respected judge in town named Charles Bennett,ennett and he and his wife reported a ufo sighting they said that they saw three red orange circles similar to an orange globe uh three red orange circles flying over them at high speeds and they could hear the machines humming and the machines above them formed into a triangle together oh so we got a globe and a triangle.

And soon, maybe a rhombus. Oh, no. No, say it ain't so. So, on the same night where this well-respected judge in town swears that he saw a UFO, on that same night,

Snippy the horse met her fate. Oh my god, it was perfect. It was perfect. I talked right over it, but it was perfect. So, Snippy, a.k.a. Lady, not actually Snippy, Lady, she belonged to a woman named nelly and nelly was the sister of harry king of harry king ranch which is where she lived snippy lived got it got it got it

got it uh so harry king had a ranch with his mom and he looked after his sister's horse there. And the horse was lady. So snippy. There was there was one note that I found where someone described snippy and it felt like the closest thing I'll ever come to to be like to being my version of this girl is known to have walked into a room and lit up a room. Lit up the room with her smile and stuff. a room and lit up the room with her smile and stuff so snippy lit up the room with her smile uh she was known as a creature of habit because she would go out to pasture every day but she was very timely and would always come back right around food time and she loved her food and she loved attention. It sounds a lot like me. This is starting to sound a little familiar.

Snippy also had tarantula legs. Hang on. Nope. Wait, that's me. I thought you were going to say turrets. I was like, that's also you. I was like, which one are we going with? Tarantula legs.

Got it. oh these mixers are too powerful i only know what those two things do i'm scared to touch because i immediately forget when i press one of the buttons what it does oh god it's good if snippy had Tourette's I would like to I would feel closer to snippy I'm just saying agreed or tarantula legs I would feel seen either way I feel like she's probably got those big hind quarters you know so maybe she's she's got those gams you know she's got the gams that's for sure so when she didn't show up one night because she was usually very timely about coming in for her food. This is when Harry King of Harry King Ranch got very worried. He went looking for her.

And unfortunately, he found her two days later in a field. And there's nothing like total. There's nothing bloody gory. I'm about to say it's more like anatomy based in case that's like helpful for somebody to figure out if they want to listen to the next couple of minutes, but let's go. So basically it was snippy lying down. Her entire body is fine except for neck up. Um, her head was just bone there was no what there was no tissue no skin no muscle no sign of anything except bone it was just a skull

just a skull what the fuck and it was as if like scavenger animals had picked it all away but it was even too clean for that. And the rest of the body was there, right? Like with all the skin and stuff. The rest of the body was there completely untouched. Completely untouched. What the fuck? Plus, where the exposed bone began and where her skin ended around her neck there was no signs of biting

or tearing as if there were scavenger animals that came to pick at it the flesh truly looked like it had been perfectly cut from the body with a tool what the what the fuck it was so clean that no animal could have done it and all of her bones were still in place so it appeared quote meticulously cleaned without being jostled so like none of the bones were out of place or anything oh it just gave me goose cam like everything from the neck up just went away except her it just like placed there perfectly without being scattered about oh so harry um also looked around just yeah i'm sure i'm sure i would and he was looking for like any other signs of what went on he realized that her hoof prints in the mud ended a hundred feet or a hundred yards from where she actually was shut up shut up shut up and there's

no other prints around her actual body and it had been muddy so if there were prints they would have seen them what the fuck so it was almost as if she had been picked up at some point a while away and then placed here harry obviously freaked out calls his sister nelly who was oh no the owner of snippy and had to tell her what happened and so nelly comes out with her husband her husband's name is burl which no never heard that name before where what is burl even isn't that a name like burl ives isn't that a person burl Ives. Let's see. I'm sorry. His full name is Burl Eichel Ivanhoe. Wait.

Burl Eichel Ivanhoe Ives was an American musician and actor. What? You don't know Burl Ives. He did like Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer, like the original. Oh, OK. Stuff like that. I know his work. You familiar with his work.

That's the only Burl I've ever heard of. Is Burl short for something else? I guess it says Burl. Well, something Earl isn't short for anything else. That's true. I'll type in Burl name meaning. Yeah. Meaning naughty wood knottie not not not naughty you know but

knottie not nagotti nagotti wood tuft of wool cupbearer or butler okay okay a tuft of wool i like how both of us couldn't have harmonized better with the okay it it okay i mean that doesn't really give me any sort of helpful it taught me nothing while we're at it can you look up earl because that's another name i'm a little like probably it means earl like in like the title you're right you're right you're right i don't know maybe maybe burl's just meant to rhyme with Earl, meaning nobleman, warrior, prince. Yeah. I wonder where Burl falls on the baby list these days. Oh my God. Burl name popularity. Let's find out. Burl. Okay. Popularity number 26,692.

Oof, Burl. Burl. That's a rough one. Wait, I want to send you the chart. There's a chart. Oh, it's like, like fucking crash. It's like a stock market crash. Hold on.

I'm sending you this. It just nose-dived. This is so sad for burls out there. Any burls out there? I'm sending this to you. Oh, also, even worse, Christine, I you oh it's oh also even worse christine i feel like it's probably tanked even further because it's burl spelt b-e-r-l-e oh i'm so sorry i did not do it that way can you look r-l-e b-e-r-l-e it filled in uh burl pants so maybe that's a thing um oh it's a baby girl name

allegedly oh um interesting oh i was gonna say that one's number 4576 and then it says that data is from 1926 wow it's gone that extinct name. And it says no data after that. Holy shit. So now that is not even remotely on the fucking board. Oh, Burl. Well, okay. Gosh. You know what? Maybe we just gave it the comeback it needed.

The real kick in the pants. I hope so. But also I wanted to mention that on this page it says, are you looking for a sibling name for Burl? Here's some great options. Belden. Belden? Belden. Belden Bray, which Bray and Burl.

It sounds like a horse. Sounds like horses. Burl and Bray. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like Belden, though. That's fun. It means pretty valley. Oh, anyway.

That's lovely gascon are they just are these the sims names it's like an ai was trying to write simlish or something. It feels like Xenon siblings have crash landed. It does really. Oh my God. If your name is Gascon, I'm so sorry that I'm making fun of it.

Not like I'm sorry for your name. I'm sorry that we're being so rude. But you know, Bevis means handsome face in French. Oh, okay. What does Gascon mean? Gascon means a man from gascony well that's a that's two on the nose okay that's a little on the nose it means nothing more than

that so um okay yeah oh well so good moving on quick okay gib please stop marmion these aren't names someone make a sims family with all of these names i'm begging you and make them all horses but then the dad has to be um what was his name again burl no our son i mean our sim oh cre, I don't know. Who are you talking about? I remember our Sim who would talk in Simlish. And he would say, Oh, Chauncey. Chauncey Bliss. Chauncey Bliss. What is the name Chauncey?

That's a good name. I could totally hear Chauncey Bliss going, Gascon, burl. Gascon, burl. It's time for your breakfast of oats and barley. Wow. Eat your barley, Beryl. I'm going to be ill.

My stomach is starting to hurt. Have we stretched this out long enough? This is the stupidest show. Does everybody want us to keep going? Is anybody here? Probably not. If you recall about eight years ago we were talking about Nellie and Burl.

So Harry calls his sister Nellie and she brings her husband from the Sims, apparently named Burl, and tells them the very unfortunate news of what happened to their horse. So they end up going over to Harry's ranch to see what happened themselves. And they noticed, all three of them noticed that Snippy's skull was so white and bleached that it didn't look like it was only two days ago that the skull was exposed to sun. It looked like it had been exposed directly to sunlight for years. Oh, but just the head. That is so weird. It's also weird because I guess in the world of like potential UFO abductions, it's like they've used some sort of technology that suggests sun exposure or UV exposure that we aren't used to. They also noticed that the skull had a bit of a pink tint to it, which I have no idea what that means.

That's weird. When looking at the field itself that Snippy was in, they also found 15 different circular scorch marks. And they were later described as similar to aircraft exhaust marks. I was going to say, so they're like landing marks. Oh, yuck. They also found, speaking of a UFO landing, they also found in the fields near these scorch marks six odd indents in the ground that made a three foot circle so almost as a ufo like a three foot ufo landed and its little six little legs landed into the ground okay they also realized that there was a 10 foot radius of bushes that had all somehow become flattened.

Ugh. As if, I guess, the UFO landed there. Yeah. They also, oh, okay, so they went to go look at these bushes because they were like, why is 10 feet of bushes all completely flattened? Nellie goes to look at these bushes and finds on the leaves a bunch of jelly substance what ectoplasm it was green uh but she went to touch it and it burned her hands that she apparently like let go of it really quickly and her hand continued to burn until she washed it ew that makes you wonder like what it could have been doing to her.

Yeah. And also like, I love that our soap on this planet is good enough to get rid of that situation. Great point too. I was going to say that's a great point because like my fear would be it would never leave my body or it would poison me forever. But it seems like dawn did a number on that and though i was gonna say in the world of 2023 social media if this story came out today you know people would be asking which soap she used and then that soap would use like would fully make it into like a media campaign of like we can take care of alien splotches you know okay but speaking of dawn like remember when the fucking oil spill and they were like the only soap used to clean ducklings.

And I'm like, yeah, Lord. And all the bottles have the animals on them to this day. All over that shit. Yes. Can you imagine instead like dove extra care or dove lotion just has a picture of Xenon on it because like it takes it gets rid of all of her oil spills a big circle and like a line through it like no more so she touched this jelly she like threw it back on the ground when it started to burn she washed her hands she also though found

a piece of metal in these bushes that had horse hair on it oh what so the i guess the ufo thought is maybe this is like scrap metal from the ufo and the horse had in fact been on the right in the craft they tried to like shove it into the craft yeah and it didn't work or something yeah i don't know so they reported the horse's death to the police but the sheriff sheriff declared Snippy's cause of death to be lightning. What? He declared this even though there were no storms in the area, and he hadn't even looked at the body. What a lunatic.

He just said, oh, your horse is completely missing everything from the neck up and there's jelly like substances and scorch marks everywhere lightning what are you hiding sir yeah i either he's an idiot or he i don't think he cares i think he's like oh that's a dead horse who cares yeah rude fucking rude days later uh a man named drhuler, he was like an award-winning pathologist. This part of the story feels fake. Not that in like a funny way, just like it truly logically, I don't totally understand. I feel like I'm missing a chapter here. But a man named Dr. Altshuler, he was caught trespassing in a national park and the cops

asked him what he was doing there. He said he was looking for UFOs. They said they were going to take him in for trespassing. And he said, please don't. This will affect my reputation as an award winning pathologist. OK. OK. Sure.

Weird reason. And the police said, fine, we won't. We'll let you go. But only if you help us look into this UFO case and in Colorado. Oh, I don't. This feels like the beginning of like a Disney movie where it doesn't totally have to connect entirely. They're just like giving you the beats.

Yeah, you just kind of believe it. Yeah. You just suspend your disbelief. It's almost like like my favorite movie. Catch me if you can, where they're like, OK, the only way you don't go to prison is if you help the FBI. You know, like now you're on the task force. Yes, exactly. And even that, I know that was based on a true story or maybe it was, maybe it wasn't.

I've heard there's controversy around that now. There's definitely. Oh, interesting. I've meant to cover that since like the day we started the podcast. I still haven't done it. Well, I'm glad you haven't because apparently the new plot twist in recent years is that Allah, catch me if you can, he even made that whole story up for the movie. What? I'm like, I don't even know if that's more or less impressive that we all fell for it or what. I don't know.

It was like that one detective wasn't enough. I have to fool everyone. don't know i leo ended up portraying him he did something right yeah i don't i don't know what the whole story is there but i've heard that there was i had no idea i would love for you to cover it so you can tell me because i really don't know what's true and what's not so uh i would love to. So, yeah, I'll catch me if you can. This guy apparently is now in with the cops on helping with an alien case. Which I love that his dream was to find a UFO and then he stumbled upon cops who were like, here's a UFO. He just happened to stumble upon one. I mean, that must be nice. He just happened to stumble upon one.

I mean, that must be nice. Can you imagine you're just looking for Bigfoot and then the people who find you have a direct connection for you to help with Bigfoot? They're like, you only get to remove this shoplifting charge if you help us look for Bigfoot. Okay, sure. That's what I was planning on anyway. It's like a lifetime quality in storytelling. It really is. There's a few gaps. You have to kind of squint your eyes for it to make sense yeah it's it's easier to just accept what's happening before you yeah yeah so uh so he goes to help out again award-winning pathologist so maybe he was

useful on this kind of case well with the goop and stuff like i feel like somebody a pathologist so maybe he was useful on this kind of case well with the goop and stuff like i feel like somebody a pathologist needs to analyze that he also was um apparently known for uh his history with blood contain our blood coagulation so i guess they were like okay well there's a dead animal if you want to look at that blood um so he goes to see snippy and he realizes that Snippy's abdominal organs, lungs and thyroid are missing. What? Poor Snippy. Nobody noticed the incisions that would have been needed to remove the organs because they were so precisely done that they got ignored the first time around that's terrifying so not only neck up is everything missing but apparently like neck down there are other things missing that were just so perfectly handled that

like no one even picked up on that's creepy that's so it has like vibes of when you of those like urban legends or whatever when you get kidnapped and you so it has like vibes of when you of those like urban legends or whatever when you get kidnapped and you wake up and like your your back kind of aches because they took your spleen out or something yeah you know what i mean like oh it's so so creepy he also realized that there was no blood oh so here's a quote i have done hundreds of autopsies you can't cut into a body without getting some blood. But there was no blood on the skin or on the ground. No blood anywhere. The outer edges of the skin were cut firm, almost as if they had been cauterized by modern day laser. But there was no cauterizing laser technology like that in 1967. Oh, so he's looking back on it and saying, now I can almost see what that would have been. Oh, that's even creepier. So there was advanced technology we weren't privy to at the time.

I just got goosecabed like into my hair. Oh, that's a new place. Yeah, yikes. The U.S. Forest Service even came out and did radiation tests on the fields. And they said that the area that Snippy was found in, especially the scorch marks and the metal piece that they found and all of harry nelly and burl's boots because they've been walking on the fields all tested positive for being radioactive uh-oh um news began to spread of lady's death and she was accidentally renamed skippy or no snippy because her name got confused with the name of one of her parents so it just got the proper name okay so yeah so uh snippy is actually one of her parents names someone else i saw another source that said like it was because like someone had

snipped into her to get her organs oh yeah i was like that's um by the way speaking of horse puns they fucking ate up using the word snippy on the headlines when the story was big they kept saying we snipped open town town is still snippy about no answers like that's so stupid oh my god it's even worse than i thought so uh yeah so basically one of the people that heard about snippy once the news started spreading was edward condon of the condon report and he was in the middle of writing the condon report at this time so you mean 7 500 yeah you know he'd only discovered 11 000 of the cases were unsolved um he decided he wanted to add snippy to his report and to do that he sent his own doctors to go look at snippy and he sent over dr adams who determined that no unearthly causes were responsible so

couldn't be a ufo i really i feel like i as a staunch believer who desperately wants all of project blue book to just say out loud that there are aliens yeah exactly i feel like edward condon has become like my arch nemesis because it seems like every time he touches a case he determines that it's like not a ufo smack the back of his head like what are you trying to prove here sir give me what i want and like me something anything and maybe scientifically he's right but like i don't want him to be so like he's probably not and i think we can both agree about that i think especially if he's literally been hired by like the Air Force and Project Blue Book, you don't think he's just doing PR for them. Like, hello, they're just giving him so much money.

No, I'll never have to work another day in his life. They're just telling him what to say. And who's Dr. Adams? Really? Dr. Adams. Come on. I could come up with a better fake name than that. How about Dr. Shmadams?ams dr burl bevis gascon burl burl dr burl yeah yeah yeah um so anyway they anyway anyway i was like really not having that um so yeah edward condon says that this is probably not connected to ufos i choose not to

believe him but okay yeah and ultimately the the general consensus is that harry nelly and burl all had to be lying about what happened just because nothing else made sense even though all these people there are pictures online of snippy the horse's body you can like see that like the skull alone so like something fucking happened and like how do you say it was definitely not something unearthly because like how do you even that seems like a negative like how do you prove that you know what i mean yeah exactly it doesn't even make sense to make that a theory we should start our own investigation team and um the answer every time is aliens you know i mean i think that already exists and it's that guy with the hair i think it's also it's also called it's also called and that's why we drink

we're every story right must be an alien i was gonna say also i think we've tried to start a task force like every episode we've ever done so i know one day so uh uh they ended up when everyone was like a sudden done with this or the story was getting kind of stale and they were like okay well we can't figure it out and you could have made this up for i don't know publicity they ended up uh moving snippy's body to a veterinarian named uh dr leary dr leary uh i didn't know this is something that you do apparently he boiled her bones and re-articulated them to like build out essentially a skeleton of like a display skeleton of her okay um like taxidermy without everything but bones right like where you like wire the bones together and all that right like at a dinosaur exhibit or something yeah yeah okay so they did that and during this he ended up finding out that there

were actually two bullet marks in her bones that hadn't been discovered at first. So this is his, so this is his theory. Uh, he says, I'm saying it's just a theory, but a couple of kids could have hit her with a couple of 22 slugs. Then the horse got scared, took off at a high lope and runs through a fence and basically did cookie

clothesline situation. Um, I've seen it before. I'm so, I'm so sorry for the sentence. did cookie clothesline situation. I've seen it before. I'm so sorry for the sentence. I've seen it before that fence wire can clean an animal like a knife slicing cheese. Which like no

need for the flowery words there. Seriously, that's so dark. Jesus Christ. So basically he thinks that the horse got spooked and ran off and accidentally like it'd be one thing if like he thought with a thin fencing wire like that maybe the horse decapitated itself but like to perfectly get 360 degrees of all of its skin even in between the bones does does not make sense. It doesn't really. And also, for them to be bleached and also for it to be such a clean line around the neck

doesn't make sense. Without bleeding? Yeah, that's true too. Like what? Like perfectly cauterized? From what? And then also, wouldn't flesh be everywhere? You'd think there'd be blood or hair on the fence or flesh.

Yeah. The skin would have had to come off. If you skinned your arm, wouldn't the skin have to be on the ground somewhere? Yeah. I guess an animal could have taken it or something. I guess an animal. Yeah, that's true. But, um...

And also, why were her hoof prints that far away? Like... Great point. You know? It just doesn't make sense but his big theory is oh the horse did this to itself okay okay to be fair the kids did it first if they shot him right shot her the horse so interestingly two college students later did admit to shooting snippy um this is in very very few sources it wasn't everywhere but some think that they that it could have just been

like maybe it wasn't them and maybe they just heard about it and then admitted to it because they wanted to be in on like the fame narrative like they just wanted to be part of the story um and because even if they shot her like explain the rest of her body. Like, yeah, true. All they did was admit to like maybe shooting her, which like we don't even know if that's true. But they never said like, oh, yeah, I went out with a scalpel in the middle of the night and removed every part of her head. Like that's right. Right. So anyway, there is one guy who had he was a biochemist that I guess came out and looked at Snippy, who was very anti-UFO.

He said, are we to believe that creatures from outer space with the ability to travel 100 light years would do so only to attack a pony? It's like, okay. First of all, fucking relax. And also, like, stop fucking dismissing her. That's exactly what I was going to say. Like, again, like Em said earlier, put some fucking respect and dignity on her name. All right? She's a horse and you are acting like she's just trolloping around and is worth nothing

to some aliens. But maybe she's really special. And maybe the aliens were studying something. Who the fuck knows? How would you know, guy? You know what're the best part of this biochemist he's gonna be the wildest thing we talk about today because so he again it felt very patronizing when he said pony instead of horse it was like he wanted you wanted her to feel small that was like dismissive yeah on top of that would you like to know what his story is a biochemist would you like to know what his fucking story is this guy would have been in

q anon oh god absolutely tell me he very very anti-ufo but also very anti-government it seems essentially his theory boils down to this the government has not been telling us but has deposited radioactive waste throughout the state of colorado there's just radioactive waste falling everywhere sure this led to colonies of radioactive ants because they were eating what because they were eating the waste the the radioactive waste that was falling what the fuck so now the ants are becoming radioactive snippy at some point got sick on a field and on this field must have been one of the colonies of radioactive ants snippy is so sick that she falls into the bushes, apparently in a perfect 10-foot circular radius, and flattened every bush.

And also, like, I don't know, rubbed jelly all over these bushes? Okay. Mm-hmm. And then after falling into the bushes, eventually faints in the pasture, which is where the radioactive ants come after snippy and eat only snippy's face off perfectly and nothing else that's his thought but like aliens is crazy i was gonna say wow um he should have kept his mouth shut because i feel like everyone would have believed him if he just said no aliens but then the second part everyone's like you lost me bud you lost yeah ants i like to think that like in an investigative journalist took him to like a pub after work and he really just started like drunk spewing theories and this is what the journalist got

but like oh now we've got gold this is a hook no this is a real hook but yeah i was like okay radioactive ants that's something that like my virginia family would still probably believe they probably think that radioactive it sounds like a facebook troll like post that got went viral but from the onion or something like and also okay so let's pretend that that happened um where what what happened to these radioactive ants where the hell did they go like they were there in the 60s and then they ate one horse face and they're all gone what happened like what's that great point maybe the aliens came down 100 light years to examine the ants yeah right yeah and now they're another another theory i found on like some like weird blog forum was that what if the

oh my god what was it I didn't keep it because I was like that's just not right but they were like what if the horse actually was an alien that died on the ship and they just like turned it into a horse to like fit into the scene like what if it was just an alien that they

found that was like and I was like what the theories are endless like it could be radioactive ants it could be like why would anyway anyway we can't even get into it because i'll lady if that wasn't lady then who was was lady an alien the whole time oh my god this is giving me a headache anyway so there has in uh recent years because i guess people did note that the field was radioactive apparently that's where the ants hung out too so there has in recent years actually been problems in jefferson county colorado with elevated levels of plutonium in their soil um to a point where the county is actually looking to like,

like maybe this is a lawsuit kind of situation. But it was years ago. It was near an old nuclear plant. Jefferson County is three and a half hours away from Alamosa, and they have done a lot to try to clean up the area. So and also that was in 2019, not 1967. So, yeah, there's it's a mo a moot point in terms of this topic. And the ants are still not explained.

Yeah, and they never found radioactive ants in actually radioactive soil. Exactly. Like, what are you talking about? Another quick theory is that in the late 60s, this was near satanic panic. So maybe they thought Snippy was part of an animal sacrifice, but there's no evidence of that. Although it makes the most sense currently, because at least like they would explain why it looked like a person operated on Snippy's head. That's true. That is true. I feel like if back then, I probably, if I lived in that time period,

I probably would have believed that. I think that more than radioactive ants yes i think for the time that that theory makes the most logical quote-unquote sense yeah um and to this day it's still a mystery her death is considered the start of the livestock mutilation reports and the stigma around mutilation in ufo lore um snippy's skeleton was moved from dr leary's after he like built rebuilt her and it traveled around town i guess like people like had a lease on her or something and she just ended up moving around so she was in a museum for a while she was literally on the sidewalk outside of the chamber of commerce um which i can you imagine being a tourist and there's just like an animal a horse skeleton outside being a child and being's just like a horse skeleton outside town hall? Can you imagine being a child and being like, this horse was murdered by aliens. Anyway, on to the store.

It's like, I'd be so traumatized. Well, here's my favorite one. Apparently, I don't know how this guy got a hold of her, but this one guy named Carl Heflin had Snippy's body for two decades in his house. And he collected a lot of weird shit apparently out in his yard there were two box cars like full-on railroad box cars one was filled with shower stalls and one was filled with doors um so he what he was i they call him a collector i'm feeling like there's some other weird tendencies going on there yeah he just maybe couldn't let things go i don't totally understand quote unquote yeah

yeah yeah so um of course he would have like a potential horse abductee skeleton also um and when he died his family was get going through all of his doors and shower stalls i guess and they found the skeleton and they were like i wonder how much this would be worth i guess they knew it was snippy and they were like i wonder how much snippy would be worth so they hired someone at uh an insurance office to sell it and they literally just they just hired this one guy named frank and imagine being frank you're like hello it's like 9 30 a.m and they're like we have a quick question for you like and also they hired him to just put it on eBay, like which is like the most like boomer thing I can imagine. It was literally on eBay?

They paid him to put it on eBay when like you could have just done that yourself. That's how he sold it. It wasn't I thought it was going to be like he went through some channels, some back channels, but no, it was just eBay. Cool. Well, I'm sure he was was like how the fuck do i sell a horse skeleton seriously why do you call him frank also i think this was it was 2006 i think this was like during ebay's like heyday oh yeah so i think he was just like i know this great new

service it's it's called craig's list and he's gonna help us i'm gonna call craig and he's gonna settle this fucking horse skeleton for me with the amount of stuff that's been sold on craigslist like that can't be the weirdest no definitely not i'm sure if you said like mauled by radioactive ants people be like oh cool i'll bid on that that sounds right so for so also that means for a time while frank was trying to sell it on ebay it was just sitting in like an empty back room in an insurance office so like imagine your first day at an at i don't know i'm trying to make an insurance group yeah you just and you just go into like the break room for a snack and there's a whole ass horse skeleton and you're like what is this if it was like geico and you could be like it's

just one of our new advertising campaigns you know know how fun we are on the TV. Yeah, or like Allstate with like the... Oh, the Mayhem guy? Mayhem guy? Is that Allstate? Yeah. Is that... I don't know. I don't know.

State Farm? I have no idea. Something. Imagine Jake from State Farm in this horse, you know? Jake from State Farm. Why do insurance companies have all these fucking gimmicks? I'm like realizing all of a sudden. You know what? But we just gave three of them a lot of good time so i hope they're happy what the fuck

so frank used ebay he started the bid at 10 grand for this horse skeleton or i'm sorry he started he started the bid at 50 grand um 50 grand i think because it was not only was it a pretty, I imagine, intact skeleton of a horse, but it also had like, you know, local history. It was potentially like the product of a UFO abduction. Right. I mean, if you're a massive cryptid fan, if you're Zach Bagans, like that's the thing you put in your cryptid museum, you know? Yeah. So the local paper announced like, hey, snippy the horse. Remember her from a few decades ago?

She's on sale on fucking eBay. And locals lost their mind. Everybody started writing in being like, no, no, no. Like I knew snippy. I'm part of the story. I'm part of the narrative. I deserve her. I actually, you know, my we're the ones that have the skeleton.

That's a fake skeleton. Like all these stories start circling one of them her name was sylvia lobato and she claimed that her mom was nelly's best friend okay and she was quoted saying i remember that day in 67 when nelly called our house my mother got off the phone and said, flying saucers killed Nellie's horse. Wow. Can you imagine just looking at your... Oh, my God. Can you imagine looking at your child and being like, guess what the fuck just happened? You'll never believe this.

Flying saucers killed Nellie's horse. You'll never believe what I just heard. That girl has to officially have full trauma because as a child, she was told, oh, flying saucers kill. And also cute little animals that you know. And then everywhere she goes she sees a fucking skeleton on the sidewalk she can't escape it it's like in everyone's house it's like at the bank she claimed she also saw the horse right after the flying saucers came and killed it

she says from the neck up that horse was peeled it was just pure it was just pure white bones the horse had only been dead for a night but it looked like it had been dead for months nelly was there with us and she found a piece of metal next to the horse it was covered in horse hair when she picked it up it burned her and she screamed and dropped it her hand was badly burned i was there and i saw it oh which like she didn't say anything though though like you couldn't have gotten from the papers at the time so like true i don't we don't know but also relatives of nelly after nelly had passed those relatives were saying they had grown up hearing the stories and they actually owned the skeleton or they knew where the skeleton had been moved or they deserved to now own the skeleton the chamber of commerce said

that they at one point owned the skeleton i guess when it sat on the sidewalk um and then they tried to start a save snippy fund to get the horse back um so even though they frank put it on ebay for 50 grand it only went for 10 grand and i guess the heir to the one that hired frank to help them out um he was like 10 grand isn't enough like let's take the post down i don't even want 10 grand for it so they ended up just like getting rid of the auction and they just moved snippy to a warehouse what and as of last year snippy's body is now in cooper colorado at the ufo watch tower which i think you and i need to go to eventually i was gonna say i'm sorry the what now the ufo watchtower is a watchtower a full 360 degree view of the valley um and it's on like the cosmic highway it's like a highway where everyone claims to see ufos but you can get a

view of the cosmic highway you can get a view of the whole area um and apparently snippy's body is now also there um but anyway even without solid answers snippy's death is one of the thousands of solved incidents in the condon report so even though there's 700 unsolved she is apparently one of the 12 000 which keeps me stressed out about the condon report because i don't believe it because they said that they i guess the solving was that nelly lied and all this was fake well yeah i could i could solve every crime ever by saying that i mean that doesn't i know so again thing again if it was like truly like a weather vane or like something like that could prove if there was evidence but now i feel like

all 12 000 reports are like i didn't want to do the work they're lying yeah yeah how are we supposed to believe any of that it was radioactive ants really like come on exactly anyway that is snippy the horse aka lady the horse aka lady the horse and her radioactive friends. Poor baby. I am shook by that story. I feel like we should post a picture of one of the headlines that you were talking about. Yeah. Oh, you can find a lot of them. Yeah?

Okay, we should look those up and post one. I'm looking up horse puns to close out my section. Oh, okay. I have a list from earlier oh okay do you have any any any good ones the only one i that i liked the best was um was my stirrup joke stir up some trouble um how about the rest this this story will have a cult following oh i saw that one too yeah okay well get off your high horse okay that's good that's good that's good and just like that we're done with snippy man uh speak is speaking of uh spur of the moment no that doesn't work okay that worked spur cowboy sort of but it doesn't make sense in the context of our conversation i'm sorry okay all right just because i'm not plugged into my mixer today i can't fucking

make any sound effects or your dumb jokes oh lord okay let me pull up my story because um i swear this might be one of my favorite stories I've covered today. And I don't want to say favorite again. I mean, we all know what I mean, right? Like it's obviously fucked up, but it's like one of the most, I think, interesting and bizarre cases. And unlike 12,000 of Mr. Condon's cases, this one is unsolved and remains unsolved. Oh, OK.

Yes. So let me pull it up. It is called the Hall-Mills murder. And the way that this has been described online is sort of like the most sensational case of the time that you've never heard of today. Oh, my God. sensational case of the time that you've never heard of today like oh my god yeah like somebody described it as almost like pretty much as equivalent sensation wise as the oj simpson case in the 90s like that's how holy shit wild this media circus got about this so what else was going on during this time for us to not even recall it quickly?

Like what was the time period for this? Oh, 1922, I believe, was the year. And I don't know, because to be honest, like I feel like there are some cases from. Well, I guess a lot of them have kind of just faded away over time. I wonder if they faded away or like the Great Depression and a bunch of World War happened. That's true. I mean, yeah, it was prohibition. Like there was just a lot of shit happening. So maybe that is what it is.

Like maybe over time it just got lost in the shuffle of all the other bullshit going on. But I'm here to revive the tale. So on its 100th birthday first birthday yes that's right it's it's over 100 years old now that is very true so edward wheeler hall is our first character he was born in 1881 and by the way there are some um a web of relations so you might need your gargoyles if that makes sense. I got my gargs. Great. So Edward Wheeler Hall, he was born in 1881 and grew up in a middle-class family in Brooklyn, New York. He met his wife in 1911 and her name was

Frances Knoll Stevens. And she, oh, sorry. My mom just texted me a picture of a vacuum cleaner okay my bad let me get back to this that sucks I have I have my like work my like do not disturb set so that my mom's texts come through because she's usually watching Leona while I record and then sometimes she just sends me a picture of a vacuum and I'm like this is not why I took you off my do not disturb list okay i i tried i tried to make a vacuum pun but it did not land that sucks yes yeah oh is that what you said yeah oh shit i thought i was making the pun about your joke sucking but well it obviously wasn't very good if you're if it just we both thought the same thing immediately. That's so I'm sad I missed it. I bet you I'm going to get tweets about that.

OK. So he married his wife, Frances Knowles Stevens, in 1911, and he studied theology in New York City. The year is 1922. Now we're fast forwarding. 41 years old, Edward Hall, and he is living with his wife, Frances, in New Brunswick, where he worked as an Episcopal reverend at St. John the Evangelist Episcopal Church. So he's married to Frances and he's working as a reverend. Some people thought his marriage to Frances was just a marriage of convenience because when he was 28 years old, he had actually been courting a woman his age,

but then ended up proposing to Francis who was seven years older than him. Oh. And she was extremely wealthy because she was part of the Johnson and Johnson family. Oh. Oh, my God. So she had their privilege and wealth behind her so some people basically speculated that he married her for the money and for the lifestyle and it was also described in newspapers at the time because this is what people talked about when they discussed women that she was a homely woman and didn't look like she came from money so

frumpty dumpty is what it sounds like yeah that's what they were implying that like why else would he marry her like it's just it's just you know nasty imagine being famous enough that your name is in papers and that's all people say about you and they're like why else would anyone marry you it's like jesus christ what a low blow yeah yeah really really rude um however now that he has married francis he has he's this widely respected reverend he has financial power he's in a he's a pillar of the community so to speak and regardless why they married he and francis seem happy enough together so life goes on now we introduce the next character of our story her name is Eleanor Mills a maiden named Reinhardt she had been born in 1887

and had grown up in New Brunswick her father was a factory laborer and that she was one of 10 children. So she came from a lower class background, I guess, if you are comparing the Johnson and Johnson fortune and this woman. With anyone else. With literally anyone, but especially someone who grew up in such a blue collar family with so many kids. Sure.

So Eleanor, unlike Francis, was described as a great beauty. She was a talented singer and many people admired her voice. She made her own clothes, which were said to always fall and look really beautiful on her. And she loved to read. She said reading made her dream. She loved to study and learn. She even gave speeches about topics she read about to the people around her. And she also spoke German because that was her family's native language. So all around, she was a very interesting person, a beautiful person, and a very charming person so a lot of people admired her when she was 15 she met a man named jim mills who was 24 and descriptions of jim are slightly less flattering than those of

eleanor uh his brother said they used to call him simple jim when they were kids and he was described also as quote colorless as a catfish dim and meek okay just rude interesting okay but eleanor liked him and they started dating and even though he was nine years older than her she dropped out of school her senior year when she turned 18 and the two of them got married in 1905. What people didn't know is that she was secretly pregnant with their first child already. So they got married privately without telling any family, had their daughter, and then a few years later, Eleanor gave birth to their second child, a son. Now, here is where our two families collide. Okay.

Now, here is where our two families collide. Okay. Jim worked as a janitor at St. John the Evangelist Episcopal Church. Okay. Got it. He was the maintenance man and caretaker at the church where our other main character, Edward, was the reverend. Right.

Okay. Okay. So, they were a family of four. They had these two kids. Eleanor also worked as a a cleaner and she sang in the choir at the church and together the two of them had very little money to support their family but they did their best and unfortunately in addition to their money troubles they were also extremely unhappy in their marriage. According to friends and Eleanor's own children, Eleanor was a devoted homemaker. She made her family's clothes. She even made like home decor on a shoestring budget just to make sure that they were always in a festive and happy environment.

She cooked all day. She was very good at it. People loved the German food she cooked, very good at it people loved the german food she cooked but she and jim just never got along he would get irritated with her when she would use her money occasionally to buy things like a new chair for the apartment or something to make the the house a little nicer and they never physically fought but they'd get in these massive yelling matches and their neighbors often overheard their like verbal altercations back and forth and this is a few years down the road because i mean they got married right so they were happy at one point they did so they got married when in 1905 um and so now we're in 1922 22 okay yeah so their kids are like like preteen teenage years at this point and they've been married for a while. And, you know, she was 15 when they started dating. So, you know, it's it's been a long time and it's been like the only person she's been with. Got it. OK. I just wanted to I wanted to make sure they were in love at some point. OK. Got it. I think so. Or at least she got pregnant and they got married. Or at least she was 15 and he was a grown ass man. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Precisely. Precisely. Another thing that seemed to really bother Jim, which I can understand why this would bother you. I'm not shaming her for it, but I'm just saying I kind of get why this would irk the other person is whenever they would argue, she would cover her ears and start singing. Oh, I would lose my mind. I know, right? I would, like, lose my ever-loving mind. I truly... And she would do that or he would do that? She would do that.

Oh, I really wanted to be on her side, but that's a real red flag for me. No, it's really annoying. But, you know, to be fair, I don't know what he was saying. Maybe he was just a fucking verbally abusive man and she was like, fuck it, I'm done., to be fair, I don't know what he was saying. Maybe he was just a fucking verbally abusive man. And she was like, sure, I'm done. Like, who knows? I don't know the details. I'm just saying in my experience, if someone did that, I'd be like, this is a joke.

Like, I just know later when Allison and I have to talk about these mugs one more time. If Allison does that, I will absolutely scream. I'm going to buy you 12 more mugs if that happens. Basically, everyone around them, like their neighbors who weren't really close to them or anything, but just heard them arguing all the time. Everyone said they could not stand each other besides the fact that they were married. So at some point, Eleanor and Jim kind of of gave up on their relationship but at this time you didn't really get divorced that wasn't really the norm so instead eleanor moved bedrooms to share a room with their daughter charlotte and jim shared a room with their son daniel so despite living in

totally totally different social spheres the halls and mill Mills only lived a few blocks from each other. And of course, they both knew each other from church. There's Reverend Edward and his wife, the Johnson and Johnson heiress. And now there's Eleanor and Jim, who both clean at the church, and Eleanor sings in the choir. The Halls sometimes would hire Jim also for odd jobs outside of the church maintenance position. So they would like ask him to house sit while they went on trips or they tried to help them financially, if that makes sense. Like they would hire him for odd jobs and try to support the family. They also arranged a church loan for Eleanor because she needed a kidney removed at one point. And so they they like arranged the finances for that.

So they took care of the family as best as they could. And Eleanor and Francis, the two wives, were also friends. And Francis would give Eleanor small gifts like vegetables from her mansion's gardens. She's like, I'm sorry. You said these not only mansions, but you said garden plural. I didn't even think about that. not only mansions but you said garden plural gardens from the mansions gardens she's like has to share a room with her daughter because she's in an unhappy marriage and this woman's like one of my many gardens grew eggplants this year here you go like wow so delightful

woe is her she had just too many she needed to give them away so really you're doing bad anyway you know yeah and also eleanor could turn that into some beautiful German dish that she might share with the church. That's true. You know? She would also sometimes give her fabric because she liked to sew and make clothes. And in return, sometimes Eleanor would embroider pieces for Francis and the church. So they just had a friendly relationship.

And over the years, Eleanor became one of the most influential parishioners at St. John because she was so involved with the community and with the choir and many people started to think this lady's gone a little over the line like she's a little too involved in the church and has too much power over the rest of the congregation but the reverend edward always backed her up so people didn't really have much room to do anything about it nobody knows when but at some point edward and eleanor start having an affair with a capital a i think we most of us probably saw that coming i sure did the gargoyles start crisscrossing and making out with each other.

Just if you need a visual, everybody. They would keep diaries for each other and they would write each other love letters. And in the meantime, Eleanor would spend hours working at the church every day just to be around Edward. So it was pretty obvious to most people that this was going on. Edward would even go to the mills house, like sometimes several nights a week for dinner, like just to come over for dinner. So he was brazen enough that he would go and like sit at their dinner table. That's wild. With the husband. Yeah.

and like sit at their dinner table um that's wild with the husband yeah so kind of sadly charlotte the daughter said those years were the happiest she had ever seen her mother and according to her eleanor was smiling more singing more and just seemed content with life for the first time that her daughter had ever seen the couple tried their best to be secret about their relationship but of course as, there were rumors among the congregation. There were rumors throughout town. People just kind of knew this was happening. Sure. Also, if you can see a complete behavior change, too, and you wonder what the common denominator is.

Yeah. Those rumors about Edward and Eleanor were confirmed when the two of them were found laying side by side under a crabapple tree, surrounded by their torn up love letters. And both had been shot in the head. Oh, wow. Yeah. Oh, oh, simple, Jim. What did you do? So, on September 16th, 1922, 15-year-old Pearl Balmer and 23-year-old Ray Schneider found the bodies of Edward when they saw Hall and Mills under the tree from a distance.

And they thought that they were sleeping. So they tried to walk by to find their own more private spot. But on their way back from their little makeout session or whatever they were doing, Pearl noticed that the couple was still lying in the exact same positions. And so she started to get worried and she told Ray to go check it out. And so she started to get worried and she told Ray to go check it out. And when he went to go check it out, he realized that these two people were dead and they had been dead for several days. Can you imagine like the hindsight of realizing that you had been looking at dead people this whole time and didn't even. And then you went for a makeout session and then you came back.

Oh, God. Like what? I mean, I know it's like I know it was not like anything they could have controlled or they wouldn't have known but like i would lose sleep at night thinking about like oh i was just next to dead people this whole time and i was making out next to them and i had no idea it's disturbing it's like that thing we talk about like you walk by so many serial killers in a lifetime it's like oh it's like how many how many times was a dead body next to me and I didn't notice it? Oh, it's so eerie. Yeah. So they realize this couple was dead. They rushed to a nearby house to use the phone and call the police.

And Pearl and Ray told the police they had just been out looking for mushrooms because they didn't want like a scandal about their little romantic affair. Their tryst. Sorry, keep going. no no you can go ahead i was gonna say well weren't they also 15 and 23 is this just normal back then i was gonna say they were 15 and 23 yeah i didn't put that together until you just said that and then the couple you mentioned earlier was 15 and 24 uh-huh uh-huh okay yeah that's a little weird i don't think i realized that but they i guess were self-aware enough to realize this could be a scandal so they lied and said they were just out hunting for mushrooms on lover's lane as

you do so yeah i do that all the time mistake i know you do um see l see allison i told you m's just out mushroom hunting don't worry about it so ray led police back to the scene where he had found these bodies and uh showed them where eleanor and edward had been arranged carefully under a crab apple tree now i'm gonna paint this picture for you. It's pretty horrific. So their feet were facing the tree and they were lying on their backs roughly a foot apart. Their legs were both crossed right over left at the ankles. Edward's arm was positioned so that Eleanor's head was resting on his arm. And one of Eleanor's hands was positioned to rest on Edward's thigh.

So it was almost as if they were just like two lovers lounging in the sun. Just snuggling. Just snuggling. Edward was wearing dress shoes and a nice suit with a gold tie clasp that matched the gold ring on his finger. And he had a Panama hat tilted over his face, almost as if he was like napping and put it over his face to block the sun. Like it looked like they had been laying there sunbathing, which is why presumably these teenagers didn't realize they were dead at first.

Meanwhile, Eleanor's blue velvet hat was on the ground behind her head, almost like she was using it as like a little pillow. behind her head, almost like she was using it as like a little pillow. And she was wearing a blue and red polka dot dress that was described as clearly lower quality than Edward's suit. So there we already have like the social class discrepancy. Wow. And just the description of the news, it's already letting you know that it's already. Yes, exactly. It's it's rough. She also had a brown silk scarf wrapped around her neck. So police realized pretty quickly they were just over the county border. So one of them said, this is no case of ours. And just fucking like peaced out. He was like, I know this is going to be a wild ride. I'd want nothing to do with it. Right. I feel like some police force would be like, no, this is our, well, maybe I just watched too much Criminal Minds, but I feel like there's that trope of like, no, this is our case. No, this is our case. But this guy's like, it is not mine. You can have it. He went, okay. I was going to, I was going to quit next week anyway. Please don't make me do this. I was going to say, yeah, respect. Maybe he was retiring. I don't know. But he was

like, I don't want to be part of this. So went back to the house got a hold of somerset county police from franklin township and said hey we got a case for you we don't want it so as all this fucking rigmarole is happening uh a reporter catches wind of what's going on and he is from a newspaper called the daily home news and he arrives and immediately starts inspecting the bodies before the pulleys have even, like, notated anything. He found some sheets of paper with handwriting on them sort of ripped up into big pieces and, like, stacked between the couple. They were love letters from Eleanor to Edward.

Now, I have a sample of these love letters letters would you like me to read them to you more than anything on this earth okay excellent so eleanor had written this to edward oh honey i am fiery today oh bernie your reaction already immediately this feels like when you held my hand on stage and saying a love letter want me to read this more than anything else i was like oh okay i'm gonna fucking take my chance and run with it now i thought it was gonna say like some nicholas spark shit okay i know what direction we're heading now let's go oh honey i am fiery today burning flaming love the lord is always near

did you know which direction we were going no no why is the lord involved in this now okay always near am what the fuck do you think okay okay keep going the lord is always near in whatever we do even in our physical closeness okay yikes for we know he meant for his children to taste deeply of all things ew taste what What are we tasting? Basically, I think she was implying like our physical romance, our passion is A-OK with God because he wants his children to feel deeply and like feel the passions of the earth. It's like, OK, whatever you need to tell yourself to sleep at night you know if the lord is in bed with you whatever you say i would assume since you're having an affair with a reverend he would have something to say

about lust but i guess he's really ignoring a lot of things right now into it like no no god likes this this is different god likes this one he's into it on this on this page on this one okay so here's another note sweetheart my true heart i know there are girls with more shapely bodies but i'm not caring what they have i have the greatest part of all blessings a noble man's deep true eternal love how impatient i am and will be I want to look up into your dear face for hours as you touch my body close. Oh, gross. I'm sorry. I mean, I'm sure I know that's like, I don't know what's wrong with me. I'm so like skittish about. I just I just when look, I'm being I have it in the back of my mind that publicly everyone's going to hear me listening to this.

And it really freaks me out because I feel like it's already a private moment between two people I don't know. And now I have to hear it. And you're telling it to me. OK. It's a lot of intimacy. I understand. I will say there was a part. I didn't keep this in my notes, but there was one article that mentioned that the I think it's actually an excerpt from a book.

But the author mentioned that one court clerk had to read this transcript aloud to the courtroom and he was like burning red like so embarrassed sure i'm sure like imagine having to draw straws to be that guy who has to read these aloud on the stand like you know everyone all of his buddies were like like kind of like laughing like cram in the back row yeah yeah yeah like trying to poke fun at him and this is like 1922 like now we hear scandalous shit all the time but like back then you know that was like whoo hot stuff but also what a weird way to like say to also like body shame in the same breath where it's like i'm in love with you but also like i've seen better but like no no she said that about herself oh no well that's even worse because

she feels that way about herself she said i she basically said i know there are girls with more shapely bodies but i don't care because i have you but also like she was regarded as like a beautiful woman so you know I don't know why she's being so self-deprecating but I guess it's just built into our society I mean it just lets you know that some things in history just never change that's true that's so true what a shame what a shame and I do have a response from the pastor here. Okay, I'm going to read the pastors and then I promise I'm done. For now. Okay. For now.

Okay. Okay. The pastor's replies were equally as passionate. Darling Wonderheart, he had written. I just want to crush you for two hours what the fuck okay i say that about like cute puppies like i want to like squeeze you you're so cute but crush crush i know he meant it in a different way than i do with puppies i hope so yeah i mean jesus christ i thought that was a given but thank you for clarifying

crush is a crazy that's a wild way to say this it is i want to crush you for two hours like what a very specific kink i don't know i don't know what it is but it's it's that's just a really aggressive way of saying i want to like be on top of you i guess so and i'm like to me i'm like oh that sounds nice because i like a weighted blanket not in like a sexual way i'll let blaze know someone can just lay on me and like suppress my nervous system that would be delightful you know what i mean but i don't think that's what he meant what was what was um maybe was it slang back then that we just don't know anymore and so it sounds crazier to us? Maybe that was normal then.

I want to crush you 19 times. It looks like there aren't many great matches for your search. Oh, well. Cool. Oh, no. Never mind. Interesting. cool oh no never mind interesting um what a what a what an odd way to say that it is right i was like what am i looking at right now like i just don't know it feels like it shouldn't be said aloud but i also i'm like but what does it mean like i don't know like i know what it means

but i still want i still want it to be changed. I still don't like it. He says, I just want to crush you for two hours. I want to see you Friday night our road where we can let out unrestrained that universe of joy and happiness we call ours. Okay, the rest of it was fine. But like, crush was crazy. That part was crazy. The rest of it was fine.

But like, Crush was crazy. That part was crazy. So he described, or he would sign his own letters as DTL, which was short for Deine Treue Liebhaber, thy true lover in German, because she spoke German. And then Mrs. Mills, I thought it was going to say DTF. And I was like, whoa, he is ahead of his time. Well, DTL, down to love. He was really DTC, down to crush. But, you knowc down to crush but you know it's like when they write to like dear abby and it's like down to crush in daytona

like yeah well how do i find someone to crush for two hours well speaking of like dtf like it does feel very jersey shore because they call it smushing because they are smashing because they smash into each other which is so gross so crushing crush and smash I guess it's the same concept they're a little too close for my liking yeah um so he would sign it thy true lover in German and Eleanor would sign hers babykins. Why? That was the grossest part of it all. I know.

It's the worst part. I saved the best for last. They would call each other babykins. So, yeah, that's cool. Okay. I'm so happy that they're happy. That's all I got to say about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, anyway, if that information were enough

to identify these two it was pretty obvious because the killer had also played placed edward's calling card like his business card at his feet like propped up on one of his shoes to identify him which also feels really gross and that's a that's a bold move for the killer to be like and by the way here's who it is like giving phone number yeah like that's such a in a terrible way but still a power move of being like oh you're gonna wonder who this person is let me let me hand you a clue because yeah why don't I just skip ahead yeah since you probably let me give you a head start trying to figure out who i am it is like a head start um but unfortunately they didn't take advantage of the head start because they were like never mind this isn't our fucking problem i'm gonna call a different police department and so while the somerset county police are on their way a crowd gathers and

like this place turns into a fucking mob scene so i don't know how back then like people at the time were so shocked they were saying in minutes like hundreds of people thousands of people started just swarming this place and i'm like in a day before social media like how did people get the word out so fast like it and this was not a big area this was not a populated area it was like a pretty small park like kind of out of the way and people just fucking came in droves to see these bodies that's wild it really is like how did how did like there had to have been a town crier where he just revered his way through town you know trumpet or something i mean this place got fucking swarmed and it was a total circus. They were passing around evidence like in a circle, like amongst the audience.

Like a show and tell? Yes. Yes. They were like passing around the calling card. Somebody like picked up the blue velvet hat and her scarf. Like they were like playing dress up. It's really macabre, you know. And every time I've like listened to someone cover

this story they kind of say like i'm so shocked and i can't believe it was such a different time and i'm like honestly if the police didn't cover up a crime scene this probably still happened today i don't have any doubt that people would like swarm a crime scene if they had the ability oh no people would at least oh people would certainly take stuff and you can then either try to sell it or like put it in their own weird collection or people would at the very least take pictures somebody would instagram live it yeah i mean but the picking up clothing that probably has blood all over it it's crazy that's it's that's it's too it's really far it's and you know

i bet it's also that kind of mob mentality of like well everyone else got to touch it so i guess i'll do it you know like yeah like diffusion of responsibility or whatever yes it doesn't feel as taboo if everyone else has already tried on the hat you know and so not only were they taking the stuff like off the bodies they were also peeling like bark and branches off this poor crab apple tree as souvenirs. And to the point that the tree had no bark left. And eventually I probably even put this in my notes later, but eventually somebody dug the entire tree up and just took it home. Wow. What a bizarre like what are you going to do with that?

I don't know. Sell it on eBay. But I mean, that's such a good point that you're making of like and we said earlier for something else, but like some things just don't fucking change. Like, no, like, you know, Zach Bagans in 1922 would have been the one to dig up the tree. 100 percent. Yes. And make it like a sideshow. And that's basically what happened. Like people were taking pieces of bark and just taking them home as souvenirs and showing them off. And people started selling dirt. So the tree got torn to pieces. This poor little tree had nothing to do with it. And so people started digging up dirt. But then again,

some things never change because other people started just digging up random dirt from other places and saying, this is, like, dirt from the crime scene. So they weren't even selling actual dirt from the crime scene. They were selling soil, like, from their garden and saying, I have a little bag of crime scene dirt for you. And people were fucking eating the shit up, like, buying it

making a spectacle i always i mean we're trying i know you're like not to get too high in the sky about this so like i don't want to get all like philosophical and deep but i really thought social media was part of the problem of like how we got to who we are but it's nice to know that even in a world without any technology we are still trash bags like it still happened like people are still scamming each other like yeah no 100 it's almost like social media just kind of propagated it or like allowed it to be easier for people but it seems like people were always this way and apparently morbid curiosity and all that yes i mean we've talked about like places where like barns that were just torn apart

plank by plank by people who were just like curious onlookers and wanted a piece of the crime scene and so i mean it's just thinking some things never change. So, of course, this compromises the whole scene. I mean, there are literally people there like, OK, this reminds me of your mammoth cave story. There are people there selling balloons and popcorn. I mean, there's two dead people under this tree and they're selling fucking popcorn and hot dogs. It's like a circus, like a true spectacle circus. So police show up and like all this has already been going on because it's too late like the the crowds have descended and um even though the scene

was completely compromised it didn't really matter because police barely collected any evidence anyway they didn't even photograph the bodies and i actually do have a photograph for you um it's from far away so you can't really see anything that dark but or like that specific or or grotesque but here's just a picture that someone else took of the bodies um i assume this is like they've been moved around a little bit oh definitely they've been because the hat is not wearing on his head anymore yeah their bodies are and like farther far away from each other yeah so like this has been totally compromised but that's how long these bodies were there like long enough for people to take photos of them in a completely different position which is wild though like like i'm i'm not saying like oh i get it like take a piece of bark from the experience like i

i understand that on its own is fucked up but like there's like tears to how fucked up i can get and i feel like seeing bodies with gunshot wounds to the head and just dragging them around just to put them in different poses like snow angels like that's crazy they're like that yeah that you'd think that would be like too human like too and human humane and yeah like too yeah too close to home like like too far to be touching if i saw a dead body no way would i move it especially just to repose it like what the hell especially with like a crowd of onlookers i I mean, it just feels so, so gross. It feels really disrespectful to like their. Absolutely.

If they knew that after they died, no one was like standing next to them crying. Everyone was just like posing with them. Trying their hats on like, oh, it's like a photo booth. Like it's really macabre. it's like a photo booth like it's really macabre so both victims were quickly buried without like being properly analyzed or autopsied and police had collected almost no evidence from the scene whatsoever so they decided to start questioning suspects instead so of course first suspects are the spouses jim and francis but as soon as police question them, they both insist they have no idea about any affair. They do not believe that their partners were unfaithful to them. They claim they have no idea. And they swear up and down that they're happy, healthy, their marriages are fine.

Jim said Edward was one of his closest friends. Their marriages are fine. Jim said Edward was one of his closest friends. Frances said she and Eleanor were very close and she reportedly paid for Eleanor's casket and burial. Like they immediately claim like no part in this. I mean, I guess technically even the love letters could have just been written by a random person to like make a point, you know, to like show. Yeah, that's true. And they were like, what do we write? Say want to crush crush her and and call her babykins it's like okay i guess that's

effective um so police questioned both of them at length about the affair and they apparently doubled down on their denial and i was listening to um i think it was true crime all the time unsolved cover this. And they talked about and I couldn't find the source anywhere, which is why I'm referencing the actual episode I listened to. But they were saying that the that the the spouse of Eleanor, Jim, tried to claim that the love letters were from Eleanor to her kids. No, I know. I know. that the love letters were from Eleanor to her kids? No. I know. I know.

I'm like, um. A confirmed no from me only. That's a big old no. Yeah. No, that's a big old no from all of us. What was the, like, God wants us to touch each other or something? No. Oh, gosh. Yeah.

I mean, like, what? So it's a no. No, it's a no. It's a no. That's a no it's a no that's like all i can say i think we all hopefully agree on that um yeah please if you don't you need to look within immediately yeah so police tried to determine where the two spouses were on the night of uh or at least before the bodies were found because from what they could tell, it had been like two days since the two of them had been killed. So that night, Frances had been spotted leaving the church in the middle of the night.

And when they asked why she was leaving the church in the middle of the night, she told police she had gone there looking for Edward when she realized he never came to bed that night. Jim had not been seen at the church by anyone, but he also told police he had gone to the church in the middle of the night as well, looking for Eleanor when she didn't come home. So apparently both of them went to the church. Neither of them saw each other. So they either just either they're lying. One of them's lying or they just happen to miss each

other. And apparently Jim said he turned the lights on at the church. And Francis said, nope, there were no lights on. It was all dark. So we don't know if this is a lie or if it's just like really convenient timing. But either way, both of them claim to go to the church to look for their spouse. Apparently, Eleanor and Edward were planning to meet up that night for their tryst. Apparently, Eleanor and Edward were planning to meet up that night for their tryst, and they had both been spotted by passersby headed toward Phillips Farm, quote, in a dreadful hurry. Mysterious.

Several people near the farm, this is like where the lover's lane is, reported hearing gunshots and a woman's scream between 9 p.m. and midnight. Based on those accounts, along with the amount of blood at the scene, investigators determined that Eleanor and Edward were killed where they were found, not moved there post-mortem. Okay. That was like the only determination police made correctly because the crime scene had been horribly contaminated they hadn't done a detailed autopsy like they really just missed out on a lot of clues and they ended up having to exhume the bodies to determine the cause of death like they hadn't

even determined cause of what and this is a murder oh my there's buried them who like was in charge of training these police officers i have no idea but the first one said we don't want to do it right called the next one so it already started off rough you know like journalists got there before police did like that's how bad this was so right right right they did exhume the bodies and it turns out eleanor had been shot three times in the head and edward had only been shot once now this is where it gets pretty graphic eleanor had also been nearly decapitated post-mortem which was extremely intimate and violent and yikes her tongue and larynx had been removed oh what does that mean symbolically there's something there so the thing most people speculate is that because she was a singer in the choir and

she was known for her beautiful voice oh the tongue and the larynx were symbolic in that way interesting okay that makes sense just really gruesome and so to think like it definitely like i think uh fbi what do they call it a one of the uh oh my god christine you watch so much criminal minds what are they called where they what is wrong with me um criminal profilers i feel like they'd have a field day with this because it's like so obviously symbolic at least to me and uh she was so brutally attacked and he was just shot once in the head and left alone i feel like i feel like then it was the wife his wife that seems to be most people's like inclination based on because the anger toward the woman even though like if someone's cheating on you you should be mad at the person cheating

on you not the other person a lot of people get angry at the other person instead and i feel like blame yes yes and i feel like she would homewrecker type comments yeah kind of thing yeah interesting yeah and so and and the anger about her singing like that could really play into it so this is all stuff they did not know because they buried them and then had to exhume them and then found out that her tongue was gone like they didn't even do a fucking autopsy at all so of course it's like unbelievable that none of this was notated at the time of the murder um the media is all over this and police are so far behind that like they are not anywhere near an arrest now as you mentioned earlier the 1920s uh like this is such a time of upheaval and it

would like continue to be um because for years papers in the radio had covered like World War One, the 1918 flu epidemic, and people were just exhausted. And now it's the 1920s. It's the roaring 20s. People are looking for thrills. People are looking for distractions. And so these fancy little things called tabloids were introduced to the populace. And they first became popular in the UK around the turn of the century. And a tabloid basically covered social gossip, scandals, and crime. And one popular tabloid proudly advertised, quote, 90% entertainment, 10% information. Honestly, at least they were honest about it. That's what I'm saying. Like, at least they're self-aware. You you know it's like we say we're not reporters we're entertainers because we don't

want the we don't want the response like not the responsibility yeah that's the wrong way to put it but like i don't want anyone to feel like i think i'm like fucking new york times reporter or something um yeah there's a certain point where it's like entertainment rather than real reporting. And so this is a huge story for the tabloids to just fucking run with. They used huge photos instead of excess text, which traditional reporters, of course, found like cheap journalism to put photos in. reporters, of course, found like cheap journalism to put photos in. They were smaller. They were easily like taken around town to read and they were cheap and they were much more available to the working class for that reason. And they also made room for more women reporters because there was just more room, I guess, for women to step in and become journalists at a tabloid than a traditional newspaper. And several women actually became highly paid and well-trusted, like high profile reporters in the tabloids, which is kind

of cool. I feel like that'd be a cool documentary. Well, they're women, so they only know how to gossip. So I guess you have to start at the low rung and then eventually they trust what you're saying and then you become a real reporter. Yeah, think that's probably how it went um so you know you gotta take what you can i guess so people of course became obsessed with tabloid media and the salacious topics that they covered and you know a lot of traditional reporters called this like lowbrow journalism but a tabloid editor of the time said that they represented america's transition into a new era because quote tabloids were just as inevitable as jazz they are feared because they are jolting the pillars of conservatism

okay so people were into it and people especially were drawn to stories involving sex, money, and murder. And it was said that the best story involved all three. So ding, ding, ding. Here it is on a silver platter for the tabloids. So it was no surprise that this case became a media frenzy. This was like next level. There's an heiress involved uh like two people from totally different social classes um an affair you know romance intrigue the whole nine yards

um interestingly to charlotte eleanor's daughter who was a teenager at the time made the story even more popular because she was a flapper oh and so because she was like kind of embodying this like new age feminist movement she became like a character in the story as well and so it added even more intrigue and drama to the whole thing wow oh my god yeah it was quite a tale so charlotte was young she was pretty she was ambitious she was like this picture of like the new era of the 20s and weirdly enough francis um the the johnson and johnson heiress the wife um she sent a letter to charlotte so edward's wife widow, sent a letter to Eleanor's daughter, Charlotte, saying, don't worry, you'll be looked after. Ew. Isn't that sketchy?

I mean, now I'm starting to think it's her this whole time. For sure. I'm thinking, I mean. She felt like she needed like a contingency plan or something. Doesn't it almost feel like she's like there's some guilt or something there like some responsibility but may i mean maybe it was just a responsibility of like you come from a poor family and i'm really wealthy i don't know i don't know or maybe she was just close to the family i'm not sure but apparently even though she sent this letter to charlotte saying she would be looked after uh charl not like Frances. So sure. She felt Frances was

too old school, too conservative, too Victorian. She didn't like flappers. And Charlotte actually suspected that Frances was involved in her mother's murder. And OK, well, that does it for me. Right. And she spoke out publicly about it it so talk about like adding more fuel to the fire now this young woman is saying i think francis had something to do with my mother's death can you imagine like lord can you imagine if she let's say francis wasn't responsible and she was just trying to do like a nice thing and like poor friend i know i and the response is like publicly being called out as like i think you're the murderer of my mother and like she was just trying to do a nice thanks a lot for trying to

support me yeah you've murdered a bitch i it's like jesus she can't if she's innocent she can't catch a fucking break this woman she's called homely she's called like ugly and like only her husband's cheating on her now she's a fucking yeah now her husband's cheating on her now she's called homely she's called like ugly and like only her husband's cheating on her now she's a fucking yeah now her husband's cheating on her now she's a murderer i mean lord god oh and oh man yeah but i do think uh if charlotte has a gut feeling i could write that gut feeling it does sound like francis trying to like tie up loose ends or something that she would have caused yeah i agree and like none of it is you know real hardcore evidence but it's definitely intriguing and i think that's probably why most people are kind of on our side with this like that's what most people tend to believe so when she realized when

charlotte realized that local police are basically fumbling her mother's case i think that's like understatement of the century but whatever uh She wrote a letter to the New Jersey governor and she said she was worried that justice would fail her family because they didn't have money for legal funds. And when she when he didn't respond to her letter, she went to his office herself to ask for a meeting. I just picture her in a flapper stress. I highly doubt that's what she was wearing. But I'm like, what a sight. She like storms in and asked to see the governor and he's apparently not in at the moment so uh-huh when he found out that she had come looking for him he actually publicly addressed her in a letter that was published in the newspapers promising to put state investigators

on the case he said she didn't need to worry about money because he would personally see to the case with state resources. I love how petty these people are, where it's like, I won't look you in the eye, but I will make the paper tell you and everybody my thoughts. Yeah, you can find out about it in the newspaper. It's like, oh, I don't have time for a meeting. I don't like you, and you better know about that on page six. Yeah. No, but he's saying he's going to fund this. He's going to put his own money, like state money toward toward solving it. OK. I don't know if that was like a dismissive way of being like, it'll it'll get handled

instead of like, actually, I think. Yeah, I think he basically was put on the spot because she's like talking to all the papers and tabloids. And she's like, I want to see him. And he didn't even respond to my letter. so he's like no look everyone i care about this case that that's my understanding of it um what a good way though if that if that was her tactic of like embarrass him until it gets handled just fucking pressure him by showing up at his office and then talking about it in the tabloids yeah it fucking worked too because this guy's

saying he's gonna put state money toward it and he's personally gonna see to it that this thing gets solved so of course now the public's even more fired up because the governor of new jersey is like personally invested in this case and an ambitious teenager has like convinced the governor to get involved and so this is like such a tumultuous and progressive almost situation and there's all this pressure from the media of course and now the governor and so police in both Somerset and Middlesex County are like scrambling to make an arrest and they know it does not look good in the papers so interestingly enough suspicion soon turned to francis's brothers so one of her brothers was a skilled marksman who worked for arms dealers but he seemed to

have a solid alibi her other brother william became a suspect because police thought he was unusual uh that's pretty much all they had to go on um his name was william he was called willie by locals he was a friendly man who hung out in the hungarian immigrant neighborhoods he was known to sit on like stoops and chat with people all day um he would even he's also obviously from the same johnson and johnson fortune so he was known to help people out with money sometimes, sending gifts to neighborhood kids. He had a lot of trouble holding a job. So he would spend most of his days hanging out at the local fire station. And he was actually called by the firefighters an honorary member of the firefighters. He obviously was not allowed to actually fight fires, but he was allowed to dress up in the firefighter uniforms and like try on the helmets and many people describe him as childlike

but he was actually extremely intelligent and could like memorize entire books of facts and like share them with people so in retrospect it's it's believed he was autistic in a time before that was a diagnosis and so you know looking back people just called him like weird you know and it's like he's not uneducated or unintelligent it's just he maybe doesn't have the same social skills or he has different skills than other people you know so looking back that's that's why police were like this guy's weird let's fucking home in on him and great great great great yeah so the problem was william actually did own a revolver that matched the bullet wounds oh so they they yeah so they take that gun and they're like well we think we

have a clue here turns out the gun had actually been like shaved down and permanently disabled for william's safety like he owned this gun but his family had like disabled it so that he wouldn't accidentally hurt himself or harm someone else so this gun didn't even work so like couldn't be him strangely his fingerprint was also on the calling card that was on the on the shoe of William Edward I'm sorry yeah but it had also been like handed around this huge so many people yeah and he had actually spent a lot of time with Edward as his brother-in-law so like it's it's not that weird he probably just had picked it up at some point and looked at it sure um but still because you know he was vulnerable police picked william william up one night randomly and interrogated

him for hours without a lawyer present and they didn't even notify his family and luckily for william he really didn't say anything that incriminated him and so they eventually had to release him and when francis his sister found out about this she was pissed pissed she was outraged that her brother had been interrogated without any notice without any representation and now the tabloids jump on that and they're like wow not only do the police have zero leads but they take this poor guy who's you know beloved in our neighborhood and like fucking treat him like like a criminal and so people are now believing like this investigation is going nowhere police are getting nowhere and uh there's just no faith in the police force whatsoever so police circle

all the way back to pearl and ray the 15 and 23 year olds who were mushroom hunting, wink, at Lover's Lane, allegedly. And they had discovered the bodies. And so police were like, let's get back to them and question them again. So Edward had actually been discovered without his gold watch that he always wore and without any cash which he always had on him and so police were like well maybe pearl and ray tried to rob edward panicked and killed them but also my thought is like there was a whole crowd trying on their clothes like someone probably took his fucking watch and walked away with right right no like point as much as i'm like oh that's weird that he didn't have cash on him like well

yeah but people are trying on her brown scarf that covered anyone could have fucking missing larynx like someone could have even like just openly said i'm taking his watch he doesn't need it anymore yeah i my first instinct when i read that was like someone took it someone has it i bet you yeah like just some looky-loo and then felt too i don't know it's probably in somebody's like safe deposit box somewhere and they don't even realize sure um so allegedly both had been missing before the crowds arrived at the scene but again they didn't take any photos they didn't write anything down so we don't even really know that uh so still police interrogated pearl ray and two

of their friends that they had been hanging out with that night 21 year old clifford hayes and 15 year old leon kaufman after the first interrogation police didn't have much to go on because according to their story the three men had seen pearl with her no good father who appeared to be drunk and pearl was crying that night. And Ray said he planned to fight Pearl's dad. Now, remember, Ray and Pearl are in a kind of scandalous relationship as he is significantly older than her. So it was rumored that Pearl's dad was not only violent and abusive, but actually sexually assaulted her. And so they see Pearl crying. They appeared to see her no good father somehow abusing her. And Ray says, I'm going to

fight Pearl's dad. And Clifford revealed that he had a pistol with him and that they could use that pistol to fight Pearl's dad if they needed it to protect themselves. So Ray Clifford and Leon started following Pearl and her dad, but they apparently lost them in the dark at some point and it was late. So Leon, who's 15, was like, I got to go home and left the other two 23-year-olds or 21 and 23-year-olds to their own devices. And they are still on a mission to find Pearl's dad. So they see a couple under a crab apple tree in the dark and they think it is Pearl and her dad so they sneak up on them.

Without warning Clifford takes out his pistol and shoots both of them. Ray yells my god you have made an awful mistake and both men fled the scene immediately. So this is what they tell police. They even sign a confession confirming the story and police announce they are arresting Clifford. Wow. The problem with this story is that the confession was extracted after police had kept Ray and Clifford awake for 24 hours in separate rooms.

after police had kept Ray and Clifford awake for 24 hours in separate rooms. And for the full 24 hours, detectives aggressively questioned both men and basically forced a confession out of them. It's like, it's just a coerced confession. There's no reality to it. So even as Clifford was being removed from questioning for his arrest, his lawyer shared a statement saying, and this is on Clifford's behalf. So, Clifford said, Do you think I'd be fool enough to stay around here for three weeks if I had committed this crime? I am innocent and they know it and so does everyone in New Brunswick. Now, luckily for Clifford, he was a very well-liked and well-known person. He had been honorably discharged from the Navy and had served in the war.

He was known to be very kind and loving. And so people immediately were like, you're trying to tell us he just randomly murdered these two people and shot them point blank. It doesn't make sense. So again, the police are failing in the eyes of the public. At this point, i get why that original cop was like i don't want this like i'm just getting me too if i know what a mess this would be i know oh my god so when this comes out even charlotte jim and francis so the two spouses

the two a widow widower and then the daughter all spoke out saying we don't believe clifford or ray had anything to do with their deaths and they said investigators are just fishing and that's all this is yeah so even one of edward's sisters said we are all mystified by the arrest of this boy i simply cannot understand it none of us can so like it's just a mess meanwhile pearl comes forward to defend clifford she says her boyfriend ray had once threatened her with a knife so if anyone had murder in them it was ray not clifford okay it's like listen i know them better just trust me on this one just trust my it's my boyfriend not the other one it's like okay jeez but what's more is clifford only confessed to shooting the couple he didn't know about the cut throat he didn't know

about that because like he how would hadn't how would he and so that part just was not even taken into account so basically it was not them anyway in the end there was so much public outrage that police realized they had like really fucked up uh by arresting clifford and so they interview ray one more time and ray's like yeah i made that whole story up and i feel terrible oh my god so he gets two years in prison for perjury oh my god i'm like you fucking like forced him to confess whatever okay so he basically gets prison time two years uh and meanwhile police release clifford and he arrives home to hundreds of locals waiting to welcome him like oh my god thank god you're free we knew you were innocent yay so now the murder investigation is back to square one i argue it never left square one but whatever

and this is when i think my favorite witness of all time steps forward her name is jane gibson otherwise known as the pig woman oh my god wow she's no she's known as the pig woman because she raised hogs near god i know near de russie lane where they were found she said that on night at 9 p.m on the night of the murder her dog started barking and she suspected someone was stealing her crops so she got on her mule, as you do, and rode down the lane. She saw four figures in the dark under the crabapple tree. She heard a woman scream, don't, three times. Then there were gunshots and another woman cried, oh, Henry.

She claimed the pair at the scene was Frances Hall and her cousin, Henry Carpenter. Jane said she returned a few hours later looking for a shoe that she had lost in the commotion. I guess it fell off her mule. I don't know. Okay. And when she found, when she was looking for the shoe, she saw Frances Hall sobbing over her husband's dead body. So finally, prosecution is like, oh, we finally have something to pin this on. So the grand jury convenes to decide whether or not to indict Henry, the cousin, along with three anonymous suspects.

And after several days of testimony, Jane Gibson, their like star witness witness starts making people a little skeptical because while she was insisting she was telling the truth when she was asked to look at henry and be sure that that was who she saw she see she said i feel that he is and so people were like okay well you obviously don't seem very convinced and she said well it was really dark so already like not a good start and then oh it gets worse because her credibility was also called into question when several neighbors said she was the sort of woman who would make something like this up for attention oh my god fucking rude wow i wonder if she oh i feel like i would i'll lose sleep for the rest of my life if i heard that that was my reputation and i was just learning it in this really intense moment in this horrible moment

and you're like that's what they've thought about me this whole time and then the newspaper's like oh yeah the pig woman i'd be like are you serious right now like hello can i not get any respect wow i would like name a woman in this story who has had a good time. No, exactly. Not not one. Maybe the flapper. Maybe. But her mom. Yeah.

So maybe not. I don't know. It's all bad. So initially, the press had been really kind to Jane as like they described her as a sturdy witness and comparing her to the pioneer women of old. But like really quickly, they turned on her and started digging into her marriage history because she had been married twice, God forbid. They started attacking her character.

And during her testimony, one tabloid described her as the following. Are you ready? Quote, erratic, obese, disheveled, and suffering from a mortal organic disease. Where did they come up with this shit? That's so, so fucking brutal. Literally, where do they come up with this shit? Like, how did you come up with something so fucking rude? I like how you started it with, were really they were really nice at first

all they did was call her pig woman but you know by the end they were like she's a pioneer pig woman also like amy schumer had a special like forever ago where she was talking about how like she uh she got hit on by a guy and he was like i like you because you're sturdy and she was like what the fuck does that mean so when you said they called her and he was like, I like you because you're sturdy. And she was like, what the fuck does that mean? So when you said they called her sturdy, I was like, oh, my God. Yeah, you know that they were talking about her appearance. And I remember in high school, a kid said I was I heard from a friend that this other kid said I was. I would be cute, but I'm too boxy to be cute.

And it's literally lived in my brain rent-free from the age of 15 until now. My bully called me Big Bird, and I still think about it. Sorry, that's so rude. And I found out because I was reading her emails that she was talking about me to somebody. So she didn't even say it to't even say to my face that's even worse to find out it's behind your back because then it's like oh they're not even just trying to be funny like they're they mean that insult it was a it was an email it was a subject line that said in her inbox is that m m schultz and so i was like obviously i'm gonna click that can

you be yeah and then it was obviously it was her and her little minion. They were just talking about me the whole time. And I still think about the big bird comment. It's very rude. Literally been half my life ago. And I still think about it. I know. Me too.

Literally half my life ago. Someone called me boxy. And I'm like, they said I would be attractive if I weren't so boxy. And I'm like, what does it mean? Let me speak for all of the people who are like so goddamn thirsty for you that listen to the show. You are so smoking hot. Mr. Tarantula legs. Okay, you know what?

Actually, I take it fucking back. Goodbye, you're ugly and boxy. No, in the best way. That's not what I meant. I meant it in the best way that people love how tall you are. Oh, I didn't get that when you called me tarantula legs. You called yourself tarantula legs you called yourself tarantula legs to be fair i'm just reiterating i thought this was building you up but apparently

um it's just hitting a nerve i'm sorry christine because nobody else uh is able to say it i'll just speak for them you were so smoking hot and uh you are and uh not boxy and even if you were you'd still be smoking hot so don't tell this sam fleming i made that name up uh who called me that when i was 15 that's interesting you want to still protect their identity i'm i shout my bully's name everywhere once if i did it on stage oh i remember that i feel like he doesn't even know he ever said that like it was so long ago and he probably just said in passing and then someone told me and like it burned into my mind. And I think probably he doesn't even know who I am.

You know what I mean? Like it's one of those. My bully knows who I am. Oh, I'm sure of that. Yeah. Well, they had a whole email thread about you, so. Well, also they were my bully from first first grade to 12th grade she was just terrible but also like you know what if you're gonna be a bully be prepared that there is the

slim chance that the person you're bullying one day is gonna grow up to have a microphone in their face for work and you might get mentioned so genuinely you wanted to act like that for 12 oh well chelsea literally if being nice literally if being nice is not gonna convince you then just picture your name splashed across a podcast okay yeah and then see what happens sorry i grew up and now have an audience and you treated me like crap for 12 years so i I guess I'm going to talk about it. Whoops. Shape up. I'm sure maybe I like to think she's maybe nice now. I don't know. I don't know. Maybe she stops her old tricks.

God. Who would know? Who would know? I want to find out. I'm sure you'll find out way too much for no reason. I'll do some digging. Yeah. I'll send you an email later called just chelsea like just how how she did that to you with your name i'll be like and i'll hope she finds it someday um anyway so this just gets weirder because so they're saying

all these horrible fucking things in the tabloids about her. And the problem is she actually was really sick. Like she was on her deathbed at this point. The pig lady, a.k.a. Jane. And they wheeled her in on a stretcher to testify. I have a picture. Okay. Hold on. Also, can I ask why on a stretcher?

Was she injured? I feel like you just said injured i feel like you just said she was on her death i said she was on her deathbed she's very ill and on her deathbed so they wheeled her in on a stretcher here's a picture oh wow okay very like what the fuck it's like a creepy old-timey hospital bed and it's just a bunch of like men gathered around her while It's like a creepy old-timey hospital bed, and it's just a bunch of men gathered around her while she's laying flat. It's really jarring. It is. Is she even considered fit to testify or anything?

Well, good question, because apparently now that she had this like supposed disability people were like how do we trust her you know like she's she's not sturdy she's weak and she can't testify so now it's like she i sent you another uh i sent you like an actual daily news article. Do you want to read the headline for everyone? I mean, come on. Okay, I'm only laughing because this is just so fucking terrible. It's so horrible. Pig woman identifies for.

Like, what the F? Like, why can't we just say her name? But also, like, I mean, i get that this was like literally the like year tabloids were created and there was just no rule or rhyme or reason it feels like it was a lawless land those tabloids yes but they just fucking ran with it and i'm sure it was i'm obviously pig woman is more catchy than anything else that would be respectful. I get that. But like, wow, in today's world, I just can't imagine anyone calling somebody that. It's hard. It's horrible. And what's even weirder. So people are already questioning her like testimony now because they're saying,

how do we trust her? What's even wilder is her own mother was sitting in the courtroom the entire time she testified, screaming, a liar a liar a liar the whole time her daughter was testifying wow like her own mother it doesn't i don't know why i don't know what it means but at this point her testimony shot nobody believes her so after five days the grand jury is like we can't indict these people. Like, how are we? There's not enough evidence and we don't trust her testimony. So Henry and the others walked free. Francis ended up filing a defamation lawsuit against the city.

And I'm pretty sure against the Daily News or against one of these tabloids. And that defamation lawsuit was settled out of court. Jim's only comment was that it was a shame justice wasn't served. But basically, the story remained super popular for years. Every now and then, a reporter or PI would revisit it, and it would spark more public interest. And people just hoped that one day it would get solved. But it really wasn't until a decade later.

Actually, you kind of did ask this question at the beginning. So about a decade later the Lindbergh baby kidnapping became a huge story and that's kind of when this story like lost the last of its popularity in in the public sure so that sort of replaced it as like the new big true crime story and so it basically just fell out of the public spotlight and for what it's worth uh the case today is credited as America's first true crime story because no story in U.S. history had reached such a wide audience, like no true crime story. And it basically launched the popularity of tabloid media, which is why I assume it's sometimes called similar to the O.J. Simpson case, like just media frenzy, you know. So although most people treated it like, unfortunately, exciting gossip, people like Charlotte desperately wanted justice for her mother. And she hoped eventually to hear a deathbed confession, maybe from Francis or from somebody else. But the case remains unsolved today and everyone involved in the case is dead

so it's unlikely that we'll ever know who killed these two wow and that's the story and also like it also is like just another psa for like police training needs to be taken so much more seriously they literally just they found out after they exhumed the bodies that they had been shot three times. Like, what? What? It's just another reminder that people that are dressed as authorities

doesn't mean that they are the authority on something and they really need to get it together. Yeah, that's so true. And one fact I forgot to mention, on something and they really need to get it together that yeah that's that's so true and um one like fact i forgot to mention which is probably not relevant but uh eleanor's bullet wounds also showed um signs of gunshot residue which means they were really really close up and uh edwards didn't so it's almost like she just got such a more brutal demise and i wonder treatment and i wonder if it was because it was more personal for whoever killed them to hurt her

or if it was just because she was like a woman or like i know it's hard it's it's like impossible to say but it feels gut instinct it feels like it was personal especially with the throat and the tongue and she was known as being this beautiful singer um yeah but yeah i don't know who it was but i can't imagine it being anyone other than one of their spouses right and just doesn't it doesn't make sense was so bungled just makes me think like well probably they just didn't catch the right person like i mean you know you know what the like the most like damning piece of evidence for me is that it has to be one of the two spouses is that like everyone seems to have ignored after your initial telling of it is like

all those love letters like they had to be found they had to be found the only reason they were ripped up around them was because someone clearly found them which means it was in one of their homes which means they had access to their home or they were in the church where the two were you know they kept them maybe at the church because they had both sides they had letters from edward and from her so maybe they were keeping them somewhere oh yeah interesting yeah but i mean that that feels like i mean hello the ripping up of two love letters tearing up the love letters come on that's not even symbolic that is directly classic trope like someone was mad because of your love

letters nobody other than spouses would give a shit who else besides like a kid maybe a child but i don't think or like i mean the the family member but like the the son was 12 i mean but the like i mean like the love letters is like that's not even a clue to me like that it's like i don't know what the right word is but that's i don't it's not a hunch it's that it's not even in hunch territory anymore but like literally right in front of your face murdered with a bunch of your own ripped up love letters back and forth with each other the only person who would be that upset is a scorned lover so when you're cheating exactly exactly like if i if i found a couple and i found out that they were cheating and i found love letters between them and and their you know side person i wouldn't first of all feel the need to kill them and i

certainly wouldn't like be like and by need to kill them and i certainly wouldn't like be like and by the way here are your love letters like i feel like if you're just like a parishioner of the church they worked at like it doesn't make sense it doesn't make sense and there was one theory that they were maybe planning to elope so maybe there was like maybe they told and you know what there's one important thing i want to add real quick which is probably obvious to everyone but like reminder that she comes from this massive fortune like money can do so much like money can do anything you can especially in the 20s with so little dna and everything honestly didn't have that you know it'd be real fucking crazy if it was francis who is the heiress you're talking about imagine if she killed them and then like alerted the media herself so she knew that everything would get touched.

She called TMZ and said herself scoop. That'd be interesting because she probably knew people would fuck with it and like she it would be a better chance of her not getting caught holy shit the the the name tag the like the business card that's still an interesting move like i get that it's like a i said power move earlier but it does feel like i'm giving you a head start but that sorry i just caught a fly in my hand i saw that with my own two eyes am i the karate kid that was crazy um no uh okay sorry but i feel like um uh the calling card the calling card feels weird and i i get that it's like a it's giving narcissism and cockiness though and i feel like no one in this group no one kind of showed signs of that maybe it's kind of a weird i wonder that's when i want

the profilers to get involved i'm like what does it mean and i wonder if what if the card was just amongst the letters you know and he was like here's my here's my calling card to to eleanor like back when they first started talking and maybe that's why he was in, here's my calling card to Eleanor, like back when they first started talking. And maybe that's why it was in the letters. And they just were like, I don't know. Who knows? But another weird circumstantial thing is that apparently in the year, in the like, it was either weeks or months following the murders. the murders uh apparently francis mailed her clothes a bunch of her clothes to philadelphia and had them dyed black so she was what so she was already preparing for a funeral

no it was after the murders she like after the funerals after the murders she like had some of her clothes sent to get like deep cleaned and then all dyed black and like it could be a morning thing or it could be like those are compromised pieces of clothing i don't know oh i was gonna say it was a morning thing because a hundred years ago was the winchester house story and when her husband died she wore black for like a long time like three years or something like it feels like but it still feels like she moved quickly like it feels like in this whole story i never heard about jim or francis grieving their partners which i'm sure they did in some way right but like it sounds like she immediately went into like task mode and it was like which i guess is its own way of grief i think part of it also was that she had them mailed so far away like almost yeah like it didn't like to the people who

get them away they thought it was weird because they were like why don't you go to your usual like taylor like i don't know i i guess that for some reason or another, there was a lot of suspicion about that fact. I don't really know why. Well, she got away with it. If she did it, she got away with it. Yeah. Man, I think this is one of my favorite episodes we've done in a while. I was thinking that during your story. I was like, this is... of my favorite episodes we've done in a while i would i would say i was thinking that during your story i was like this is like what a story eva write that down three three

six in case in case we need an episode one day in case we somehow need to recommend something um we talked about burl a lot so well who could forget burl well christine well done everybody well you and me um i guess is that it until i see you when we record again yeah when do we record tomorrow probably maybe i'm not sure i don't know who knows maybe not oh i'm so excited to go have a little lunch now make myself a sammy yeah we're having a good time well thank you everybody for listening and um i guess uh i don't know until next time until next time i had a i had a plan and then it went away so i guess we'll just leave you that say and that's why we drink