And That's Why We Drink - E350 Eyelid Licking Demons and Black Cat Broomsticks

Episode Date: October 22, 2023

Oh Christine, oh Christine, next week's Halloween! Episode 350 is a big one and has us in our heads and our hearts as we re-evaluate and discuss the word "spooky" and dive into our Halloween season tales. First, cat girlies to the front, Em takes us on a historical journey into the lore of the black cat. Then Christine covers the incredibly tragic story of Heather Mayer and the abuse and misuse of the BDSM community. And we'll be thinking of the Roman Empire like men do too now that we know it involved so many cats... and that's why we drink!Big trigger warning for Christine's story this week involving domestic and sexual violence.If you are experiencing domestic violence or know someone who is, the National Domestic Violence Hotline is 1-800-799-7233. You can also chat with them, or text START to 88788. We love you!

never never ever will we ever figure it out never a dull moment oh christine oh christine next week's hallow Ah, that's cute. Thank you. And I was on the fly if you couldn't tell. Why did I never realize that my name rhymes with Halloween? I also had to tell you your baby's name can be spelled out of Halloween letters. So, you know. You did.

I mean, you also told me that her name is a little too close for comfort to the word lemon. And thus demon. Oh, wait, that's true. I think I just don't see what I don't want to see. You know what I mean? That's a fun game to live through life. Yeah, it is actually. You should try it sometime. Well, happy pre-Halloween. Are you getting in the mindset? Are you ready to eat a lot of candy? Are you going to dress up? I literally, before we recorded, was like, I have to go get my candy. And I went and got a giant bag of candy. And by the way, folks, as we record, this is October 3rd. So the answer is yes, I'm already on my candy game. 3rd. So the answer is yes. I'm already on my candy game. Now that Leona's birthday is over,

I am in Halloween prep mode. How are you doing over there across the nation? Oh, you know, just checking, just keeping the West Coast safe for you, Christine. That's how I am. Thank you so much for doing that for me. And as of October 3rd, my home is going to be decorated in the next 24 hours um and i'm going to be decorating the front door nobody else in our entire complex decorates the front door you know really i know if i had an apartment like that's that's what i would do like make the front door all fun you know my my mom always said that when she lived in an apartment building growing up that was the best time to go trick-or-treating because you could just knock on all the doors down the hall and they'd all open the doors at the same time. And you don't have to leave the building.

And you would run down the hall and grab everyone's candy. That's such a dream. That's so nice. It's like Eloise, you know? It's exactly like that, except she was in the projects. Is your mom Eloise? Oh. But, I mean, she felt like Eloise when there was six people handing candy out all at the same time.

Yes, everything will be decorated. I don't have candy yet, but I will get there. And I don't have anything I'm dressing up as, but, you know, I'm looking at getting ready for all the events, all the jump scares I'm going to. Oh, I hate that. But everything else sounds like fun. Well, anyway, speaking of Halloween, and before we get into anything, I want to bring up last week because I'm feeling very, I don't know. I don't know what the right word is. I feel very.

Oh, well, we've already talked to our therapist. Well, I've talked to Em and em has talked to their therapist so I've just talked to a therapist through em somehow I just felt it just felt weird and weird isn't even the right word it's it's just kind of I feel I definitely feel bad and I feel um I'll tell you what I feel I feel slightly embarrassed I feel I'll tell you what I feel. I feel slightly embarrassed. I feel embarrassed. I feel kind of like I'm kicking myself a little bit. And I feel like what's the other word? We were identifying our feelings a little bit. By the way, when this comes out, it wasn't last week because it came out on the first episode we're talking about.

But it came out, let's see, three weeks ago when this comes out. Oh, God. A while ago. Yeah. Yeah. But but for us, let's see, three weeks ago when this comes out. Oh, God. A while ago. Yeah. Yeah. But for us, it was like yesterday. So. Yeah.

But I just I still feel kind of just weird about it. So we had been told a few times that this is, by the way, in reference to us using or not using the word spooky. And we had been told behind the scenes quite a few times that, you know, people had been reaching out saying that that word actually was offensive and we needed to, you know, you know, maybe. Nix it from the vocabulary. Nix it. And so that's why when we, you know, after we heard that enough times,

on the next episode we recorded we brought that up and we came in too hot and we i think we we both as you probably know after so many episodes we spiral and so we had been told this information um you know right before we recorded and so i think it was on the front of both of our minds to just like, you know, address it. And we should have definitely done more research beforehand. And that's what I'm embarrassed about a little bit. I'm like, I should have like, we should have known better by now that like, you know, we don't just take things at face value without like, more thought and research. And I feel that we kind of Yeah, like you said said jumped too hot into the situation

and I think we were almost I think some people felt like defensive a little bit because we just kind of were like uh this is the way it is yeah yeah and it just felt and like I mean I recognize that and um you know people have been debating online and most people are being very you know kind and trying to defend us and we do really appreciate that uh but it's caused a little bit of chaos and controversy yes amongst our listeners and we apologize for that that was not the intention especially during halloween season i feel like it was like a particularly touchy subject because this is the time when everyone's saying that word but i i think um we i don't know we were we thought we were doing the right thing because if you've been

listening long enough you know that we're always trying to be on the right side of history and we have a platform and we want to you know address things and help educate others but at the same time we have a platform and we should have like known what we were talking about before we jumped right into it. And so we were trying to do the right thing. And, you know, sometimes the right thing is also to say when you were wrong. To wait a bit, maybe. Oh, yeah, yeah. To talk about it afterward and be like, hey, you know, and like, we know that it'll probably die down pretty soon like the conversation online you know but um we just wanted to like we didn't want to just like go back and delete that part of the episode and then like pretend like it never happened like revisionist history we felt like that was just kind of um insincere and so we thought we'd just say something now

and just say you know we talked to several people who have said like you know I a lot of people who chimed in were people of color and we were like oh thank god like some people are putting their own personal you know uh spin on it letting us know what their experience is and that is something we should have done before we talked about it on this show we just heard it was we just heard enough times that it was offensive and we went okay well we're not going to say it anymore which usually works usually that works pretty damn well yeah but then all of a sudden there there were people saying like oh this information only came from one article and we hadn't even done any any research we were totally going off of like like people just reaching out and saying but that's

the one perspective i read like i read that one article i didn't like people just reaching out and saying but that's the one perspective i read like i read that one article it didn't like really dive into it and that is my fault and again i'm quite embarrassed about that um but yeah yeah anyway we anyway all that to say i don't know what's the what's the thesis statement m it sounds like 95 of people are saying that it's an okay word to say. And other than that one article that I guess someone else had read and relayed to us. And I mean, it sounds like it's an okay word to say, but I also,

you know, it's such a touchy subject now because we like, we've created like a big, we've created a monster teams almost. Yeah. And it's really not even that bad. It's, you know,

it's just a few people who are kind of debating, which is fair and understandable. I'm happy that there's a discourse about it. You know, like I want I if there's anything we want out of this podcast, it's that we want to, you know, educate other people like us to even just think about these kinds of things. So, you know, I'm grateful that it seems like most people are having civil discourse on this. Yes, yes, definitely. But now I'm kind of at a loss because I feel like, oh, it sounds like it's an okay thing to say, but now I'm going to be paranoid every time I say it. So maybe just, you know, time will heal that. Yeah, I think we just need to like wait to hear. I don't know. Wait. Yeah. Like you said, give it some time.

Like wait for other people's perspectives before we, you know, totally lean one direction or another. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And just apologize for, you know, creating a little bit of kerfuffle, which was not the intention of our statement. It really was not. No, we were just trying to do the right thing and it backfired. So whoopsies. Okay. I just wanted to address that before Halloween season was over. And then all of a sudden we like, you know, if we're ever going to talk about it, it should be during Halloween season, right?

I agree. And like, I'm like, what if we say spooky sometime and then people are like, really? Now you're just totally 180ing on your own thing? And so, yeah, we wanted to be fully transparent and say, whoops, we clearly hear you guys. We came in too hot. We came in way too hot. And we apologize and we will use this as a learning lesson, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, other than that, is there a reason why you drink, Christine?

Well, that's pretty much a big one. I did cry yesterday. It did break through the Zoloft. And again, I wasn't like upset with the listeners or anything. I was just embarrassed, really. And I think I don't handle that well, like the kind of shame of that. So I did a little reflection. I was telling Christine, my therapist called it a critique of our character because yeah is what how we perceived it at least

yeah yeah is that we we felt like um yeah we just we like we felt like we were being called like accused of being performative and stuff which you know is a fair thing to call people out for um but but we really were trying to be so genuine we really were yeah we really were but but i also it was like a critique on our a self-critique on our character too of just like oh like what is that like what do i need to work on so anyway it was a big emotional day for both of us yesterday but yeah um anyway what uh i had a different reason why I drink. Oh, I found an old picture of my... I'm going through my photo frames, my whole wall. And I found this old picture of a family member.

It looks like it's the first picture to ever exist. It's from the 1840s or something. What? It's the old... And they're apparently related to me um and i was like what if i just find all of these like old archived family pictures and put them in the picture frames on my wall and just make it look like i bought all these from like spirit halloween where it's like those pictures where you walk by funny and it may become a it looks like they turn into a zombie or something if you walk too far past the picture oh yeah so anyway I drink this week because I'm now going through all of ancestry I didn't have enough pictures so now I have to like scour ancestry to find my oldest

relative on each side of the family and I'm going to print them out and put them on our walls and make them permanent photos until Allison wants to change it. But permanent pictures of your home. I mean, exactly. That's a recipe for a haunting. But OK, you do you, I guess. I know. I'm like, would I will I feel like they're staring at me all the time? I don't know.

Yeah, definitely. I will if they're behind you while we record. We'll find out so actually that would be a great backdrop wouldn't it it's actually a kind of a ideal backdrop because it's like meaningful but also a little scary yeah we'll shop it we'll shop it anyway that's why i drink i'm currently going i'm i'm doing a deep dive of any photographic evidence that um you know people in my bloodline existed all those years ago so that's why i drink i love it well i drink because leona's birthday party was a roaring success how was it was it it was so fun it really went so great uh i actually took photos

this year last year we like barely got any pictures this year I like tasked everybody with taking photos I even gave my phone to someone else and was like just take photos for me so I'll post those online it was just really sweet and fun and it was like 70 people it was crazy who did you invite?

a lot of people came a lot of our family in-laws kids from Leona's toddler program, you know, friends in the area. How's the cleanup situation from that? Well, my mother-in-law was in town and I woke up the next day and my house was cleaner than it was before the party. Oh, my God. I was like, listen, I feel extremely lucky. And it was really great.

And now the house is kind of quiet. I have taken three naps in the last two days because I'm so freaking exhausted. The amount of planning that goes into a party, no one ever appreciates it. It's wild. They came over and were like, all of this is for the party and i was like yeah and they were like this isn't like doubles you didn't accidentally order doubles or something and i was like no all of these boxes need to be opened and used it was many days of prep work which i know was not necessary and i always tell myself like oh i'll do really low key this year

like who do i think i'm kidding you know well? Well, also like, because my thought too, I would, I would turn into you, by the way, let's be clear. But my brain without a baby is like even my own mom, she's like, you don't remember when I did this? Isn't this for you? And I was like, I was fucking two. No, that wasn't for me. That was for the grownups. Yeah. So in my mind, I'm like, I won't really do anything like mind blowing until my child can even remember it. But I would still find a way to go over the top. But it's fun because it's sort of like, oh, now you have kind of an excuse to invite everyone

over. Exactly. It's like all the photos. And we did like a little guest book where people wrote in her copy of Hungry Caterpillar little messages, like a little guest book for the party. And people wrote her little notes for the future. And so every year we're little messages, like a little guest book for the party. And people wrote her little notes for the future. And so every year we're going to have like a different guest book, just little fun stuff like that. And I don't know, it was obviously I know it was more

fun for me. She was probably just like, what is going on here? She was like, pardon the pun. She was a social butterfly. Like she was running running around and just, like, high-fiving everyone. Once this one hour through the party, she would just wander around and pat everyone on the leg. Like, just even people she's never met, just pat them twice on the leg, keep walking. That's so sweet. Just say hi to everyone, do the rounds. What's it like to have a toddler now? She's not a baby anymore.

She's so big. She's not a baby anymore. She's so big. She's a little chatterbox. I can't wait for you to see her again, Em, because my mother-in-law saw her in August in Germany. And then she came this time and she's like, holy crap. Like she's speaking in full sentences. She's singing. She's making jokes. Like I feel like every week there's new developments.

Making jokes? Like she thinks they're every week there's new developments. Making jokes? Like, she thinks they're funny, but. Okay. Like, she makes herself laugh. So, I mean, which makes everyone else laugh. But, yeah, I feel like you two will have a good time whenever you reconnect again. It's about to, the era is about to begin. Yeah.

Because I don't do well with babies because I can't explain to them how funny I am. Right. Because you have to explain to adults how funny you are. Well, it's not clicking. It's not clicking the right way. But once she understands, oh, no, I'm a person. I'm the director of Funville. Then all of a sudden she's gonna be like i fucking like you

like originally like that's the fun crowd that's the one i want to be part of she's gonna be like you were just holding me like boring but like once i'm like hey let's do this this and this and all these things your mom won't let you do all of a sudden she's gonna be like oh that fucking guy yeah let's be friends you know oh funkle m is here to play funkle m waited two years but funkle m's about to get crazy so i'm about to throw down okay so um anyway looking forward to that um my story for you this week christine because i wanted to get into the halloween spirit um i thought you would appreciate this uh-huh this is the lore of the black cat so cat girlies to the front cat girlies to the front i'm here i'm here i'm here so here is a brief history a 101 here comes eva i'm screaming

eva and i are in the front row as someone who uh has a black cat both of you i feel like you'll really appreciate this episode shadow and moonshine shout out two of the best names i know shadow is like probably the most like obvious name for a black cat but it's one of those it's it's a classic like it's so good a black cat named shadow also growing up it's a great name for a cat it's a great name i had a black cat growing up um he did not have a cool name but i didn't get to name him to be well what's his name his name was rocky but like i want you i wanted a shadow i wanted a moons moonshine. Well, not a moonshine, but something cool, you know? I feel like Rocky was just kind of like low grade. Like it's a good name, but it's not original.

Like Buddy or something. Yeah. Which is also a good name. Don't be offended, everyone. I'm just saying like, you know, your classic, like Rufus, Buddy. Yeah. It's like there wasn't too much originality to it. I feel like someone just kind of threw that name out and it just stuck.

So I tried for a while to shop Rocket. No one wanted that. But Rocky. I wanted something dope, but whatever. Rocky Raccoon. So anyway, to all my cat girlies, here we are. This is the Black Cat. Now, Black Cats are often known as they're associated with Halloween superstitions.

They're often seen as witches' familiars. And in modern Western superstitions, they're associated with trickery and evil magic and bad luck. Uh-oh. Before this, we're going to do a deep dive into the history of the cat. We're going to do a deep dive into the history of the cat. And before this, many cultures for thousands of years linked cats with magic, gods, and the afterlife. So this goes forever back. Historically, cats started out in good favor with humans.

And this is like 10,000 years ago, it's thought, that we began to live amongst cats or cats began to live amongst us. 10,000. Jeez. I can't even. My brain doesn't work that way. But it's said that that long ago we began to live alongside each other. Fun fact, the very first evidence of a pet cat 9,500 years ago. Wow.

A pet cat? Pet cat. Wow. A pet cat? A pet cat. Aww. Because there's a 9,500-year-old burial site in Cyprus, and a cat is buried next to a human. They found the remains of both. And this, by the way, predates Egyptian cats by around 4,000 years. That had to be you had to that probably

that guy was probably like that guy in the neighborhood where everyone was like this guy with his like freaking cat that he's befriended like it must have been such a weird concept like it must have been weird he had the first pet cat you know but he he loved that cat he was the eva of 10 000 years ago he was he's like i give zero was the Eva of 10,000 years ago. He was, he's like, I give zero fucks what you guys think about me. He's my friend. So they were buried together. And I said that this was in Cyprus,

but Cyprus wasn't an area where cats were native to the area. So it's theorized even further that not only did these two become buddies, but humans must have brought cats with them to travel there. that's cute so they you know moved around together um this shows that humans were associating with cats thousands of years earlier than scholars originally thought because they originally thought maybe in egypt is when the relationship really got big that's kind of what i thought well it's thought that we began living alongside cats in the fertile crescent which depending on the scholar that could be modern day iraq uh turkey syria lebanon israel palestine or egypt so um everyone's got a different

opinion on where that area is but um they think that cats and humans started hanging out in this area because at this time in this area, that was where housing started attracting a lot of rodents because they would keep crops and grain storage near the permanent homes. Oh, right. And so since these homes were like the first to have food nearby all the time, this was the first area where rodents were just everywhere. And that does make sense. These settlements were great hunting grounds for cats who were hunting rodents or eating our trash to survive. And eventually the cats just kind of stuck around and we saw them as free pest control. So we kept them around and didn't have a problem with it. And I guess over time, we just started bonding with them

and they became our friends. So also fun fact, in ancient Rome, soldiers would keep cats in their forts because rats were known to chew on armor and equipment. So cats were important during war. Listen, look at them. They know their worth. They have known for 10,000 years.

They're like, duh. No wonder they're so snooty. They're just like, I fucking know. My father and his father before him, we were helping in ancient Roman wars. I'm going to get Moonshine's ancestors old photos from ancestry and hang them up behind me while you do your your ancestry wall i'm gonna have moon's ancestry wall behind me i am telling you if like like when men are always thinking about the roman empire i hope they're including the thought of cats saving the day you know if if i if that were like the angle i would probably also think of the roman empire every week you know right all of a sudden it makes sense i'm like that i can get behind yeah so cats might have had um an ancient spiritual significance uh in cultures that are now lost to time but later in egypt they definitely had a huge spiritual significance

um egyptians believe the cats were of this world and other worlds they could cross into both and that they were divine protectors of the underworld and so they were guides for the dead and they were peace bringers they also thought that cats represented fertility and power and justice and they were seen as protectors and hunters they were seen as both because not only could they control the rat population but the snake population so they were hunters for the rats but they were protecting us the entire time because they could also take down snakes that would kill us damn so they had a immediately they were known as like having a duality to them of like being protected protective but also dangerous um uh cats have also been associated with a lot of egyptian a lot of deities but especially the egyptian goddess uh bastet or bast who was the she it

looked like a female figure with the head of a lion. And then over time, it actually evolved into the head of a domestic cat. So I wonder if it was like, oh, because she's so fierce like a lion. But then people started making friends with cats. It's just kind of the depiction of her. I wanted to look a little more like my cat, Bob. So I'm going to alter it. The image changed to Bob. Aww.

But this goddess, she was the goddess of protection and good health and pleasure and egyptians also often depicted cats as dedicated to serving humanity so they again had a dual nature where they were um deadly but protective wow in japanese folklore cats were also dual natured animals because they could walk between worlds, but they were less serving to humanity. So they weren't really there for you. We were just lucky to be in their presence. Yeah. Well, that seems like we've come back around to that.

I feel like especially a juniper is like can confirm. Correct. Juniper is like now you're onto something. universe like now you're onto something uh they were known to cause either uh because they were seen as less serving to humans and they had more of a free will they were seen as huge problems because they we couldn't predict what they were doing and you can't like train them like a dog exactly i mean you can but not quite as easily. Well, so because of that, they were mischievous and they could either bring you great fortune or really bad fortune. So that might be the beginning of where we see us not totally knowing what cats are all about

every now and then, that they've got a little more independence to them. In Norse history, cats were, again, magical creatures who would bring good luck but only if owners treated them well so now they've got conditions that i could get on board with though like yeah you should take them well yeah i that i'm totally down for but all of a sudden it's like oh now we've got boundaries now we've got demands okay it demands exactly so cats were used in norse rituals uh in one of the stories to bind one of loki's children one of the ingredients was the sound of a cat's footfall whoa kind of ironic because i feel like you could never hear a cat's footfall have you heard juni walked down the stairs oh we almost called the police once we thought it was a man like a man was in the house

and it was literally juniper he's so effing loud like the house shakes when he walks down the stairs i'm sure there's a story to that of uh or a reason to that mythologically of like oh he's one of the ones that we would have needed for loki's children you know oh maybe he's like i'm just stomping around in case anyone needs to hear my footfalls okay well also in norse mythology Freyja, who was a goddess who rode a chariot pulled by two cats. And she was the goddess of love. So she was linked with fertility and sexuality and femininity, which is some of the things that cats became associated with. It was especially like the slinkiness, you know. Sure.

In Norse tradition, there are also early stories of black cats being associated with fearsome magic and power there's one story of a gigantic black cat um that could breathe fire and killed 20 men in just a few minutes so oh no that's called a dragon but whatever they're actually descendants kind of like how chickens are descendants of dinosaurs. Makes perfect sense. Cats are descendants of dragons. Makes perfect sense. Thank you. There's also an Icelandic story of a man who owned 20 black cats because, and he, sorry, he owned 20 black cats and he used sorcery to make them powerful.

So now all cats are powerful. The cats terrorized his neighborhood and uh they ended up being called hell cats but hell was for the daughter of loki who is the goddess of the underworld so this brings us back to the original theories that they that's fun go in between both worlds okay so this is kind of the the early beginnings of black cats specifically being associated with the underworld and thus big scary monsters and thus the unknown. Yeah. Other associations with like cats being linked to sorcery or cats being linked to the dead or even like because they were associated in some way to femininity and thus, like I said, the slinkiness. Yeah.

were associated in some way to femininity and thus, like I said, the slinkiness. Yeah. These kind of associations really took hold after Christianity came into Europe or took hold in Europe. So now all of a sudden cats are really all about witchcraft and the dead and sexuality. So you can see how quickly we jump into. Now sexuality is like a bad thing because it represents like sinning or it's like the opposite of purity and all that. Yeah. Well, especially because it was linked to sexuality and femininity and God forbid a woman be sexual. Yeah, that's not that's a wrong kind of sexuality.

There's no such thing. It doesn't exist. It's true. It's all made up. so uh for one thing christian missionaries uh were especially critical of freya because she was a goddess expressing sexual power and she was associated with cats and so now not only her but cats are threats to christian beliefs yeah amen so stupid cats were also because they were associated with um sorcery uh they uh were now also associated with hecate who i've talked about and she was the greek goddess of magic sorcery

witchcraft so this further links cats to not just um you know sexuality and things that christian uh heavy christian beliefs were against but now if a cat is also linked to witchcraft, it's linking them to paganism, true evil, you know? Yeah. Throughout the medieval era, opinions on cats went back and forth because they were still seen as practical livestock, especially if you lived in a city

and there were more rodents. So having cats around just to keep rodents at bay um they also you know cats were still seen as good because they were technically protecting our food they were keeping homes clean and during the medieval era they were preventing disease so okay yeah fair point so in some ways it's like, we've got all these things going for us where we're against cats, but also they're a really useful tool and that brings them back in good standing. But cats being essentially nocturnal and more active at creatures of the old gods and forgotten magic and threatening Christianity. And they're still a little creepy because they move around at night. What are you up to?

And they don't see what you say and their tails flick around and they stare at you and you feel like they're reading your soul. You know, little things like that. Also, I'm sure like even the the original root of like all the way back to Japanese folklore of like cats are independent. I feel like that wasn't a big thing that Christianity was looking for either. It's like, you know, you have to like be obedient and all this stuff. And cats are like, I'm doing whatever the fuck I want. Cats are like, yeah, sure, whatever. And then they just like knock your water glass over and they're like, what are you going to do about it?

It's like, oh, my God. OK, you are a little scary. They really will do anything. one of deirdre's cats last time i slept over i woke up to it licking my eyelid like oh with the sandpaper tongue oh my god it felt demonic it felt really awful yeah certainly that nothing good was happening there no no oof woof that felt like that alone i was like be gone demon you know you did convert to christianity that day which makes a lot of sense now anytime i'm around that cat i just start saying hail mary protect me so these are now you know although useful they are seen as eerie creatures we don't

we don't know everything about them they They're linked to old gods. And to tip the scales even further, now we have one of the first rises of Satanist panics and witch trials and cats, especially black cats, are assigned to the devil because in medieval times, that was the beginning of this. There was one writer who even claimed that the devil would take form of a black cat to seek out followers. So if you saw a black cat, the devil was coming after you. Oh, boy. And when talking about this is the same medieval writer, he said, this is a quote about satanic followers hanging out with black cats and the devil. This is a quote quote the devil descends

as a black cat before his devotees worshipers put out the light and draw near and they feel him they feel after him and when they have found him they kiss him under the tail ew uh right on his little ew first of all the the first part of that was all correct that the devil does descend as a black cat and we all worship him but the rest of it like that's just gross guys then you feel around for him in the dark and yeah first of all can you imagine feeling around for a black cat in the pitch black and then grabbing a hold of its tail and getting anywhere near that cat. No, absolutely. And as if the cat would ever be like, okay with that. Come on. Right. Right. So anyway, that one sentence was a lot, even for 2023. So I imagine in medieval era, it really just

threw people into a tizzy. It must have been outrageous. Yeah. So now people are linking black cats to not just satan but you know satanic followers satanic rituals and also just general uncleanliness and degrading humiliation because you're kissing a cat on the on his little spot that's just bullying so now black cats equal devil and pope gregory the ninth actually heard these stories and declared himself that black cats were in cahoots with the devil so pope gregory was a little um trigger happy with that um so that being said though even though the pope was like black cats are bad a lot of and cats in general he said were bad but nuns and monasteries actually

ignored the pope a lot and kept cats in their churches and in their homes because they were still useful animals so i feel like it's um i don't know a good example of this but it feels like the cats are like yeah we've got a bad rep but like we still have a skill everybody needs we have something to offer yeah it Yeah, it's like you're... We still keep getting invited to the party. Yeah, it's like that... Yeah, I know exactly what you're trying to say. It's like that guy at the office that everyone fucking hates,

but he's the only one who knows Excel, you know? Okay, that is such a good way to put it. It's like, man, we really don't want to be around this guy. He's kind of a douchebag. But like, how else are we going gonna get these spreadsheets done exactly so that's how these cats are just prevailing after era after era after era it's like understood it's like that miley cyrus quote when she's like these motherfuckers are trying to kill me but i'm back i'm back and so they hate black cats every single one of the hate fucking black cats but they're still hanging out in your church, Pope.

They need them. They need them. So there are rumors that the Pope even launched an inquisition into cats. Like against cats. For God's sake. And he led Catholic followers to start killing cats in mass throughout Europe. No, that's not cool, man. That's really not cool.

So lucky for us, the truth is kind of unknown on this it's like speculative that that happened but in the 1200s the leader of the catholic church did take an anti-cat stance whether or not he also ordered people to kill them um so no matter what cats were hated this was a rough time to be a cat after this cat started showing up more and more as symbols of blasphemy symbols of sacrilege and it got to where a bunch of christian sects if they were trying to separate from the catholic church they were accused of worshiping cats not worshiping the devil or pagan idols but worshiping cats um so if they're like i don't want to be catholic anymore oh you're a cat worshiper uh loser meow meow yeah you know they were taunted

it's so evil so um more rumors led to the belief that devil worshipers allowed cats to even participate in their rituals with humans so now cats are becoming like i guess this is like anthropomorphic like they know how to like perform rituals with human beings yeah i feel like it's like they've even though they were trying to vilify cats they've now turned them into like these larger than life like characters that have like all this agency and control and it's like i think you're kind of doing the opposite of what you were originally intending to do you've made them a lot more powerful in people's eyes yeah you've accidentally um shot them to stardom i'm afraid like it's kind of weird i'm like what were you thinking was gonna happen well so it was it was still a way to um scare a lot of people in the

catholic church because since cats were able to participate in rituals they were seen as equals where this was an insult to the christian belief that humans are above all animals um okay okay i see so it's like oh if they can do these things they must be unnatural right okay okay okay so soon cats start popping up in accusations against witches all over europe um and there was actually just just one example of this in 1324 there's a woman named alice and she was accused by her own stepkids who were hungry for her money they accused her of witchcraft they said that she was using magic to seduce and kill her husbands including their own father okay and one accusation against her was that the only way she became a

witch was that she was having sex with a demon to gain power um and the demon appeared as a black cat and she would even have sex with the demon in the form of a cat on okay so now they're turning into bestiality shit great exactly and so and which is another like gross misconception of like the occult or you know satanists is like oh well they're just having sex with animals or something horrible so this is one of the first times we see an accusation like that. So it was incredibly outrageous then. But unfortunately, as more witch trials happened, this became a more common accusation. Right. Luckily, Alice fled town before she was tried.

But this accusation actually helped black cats in a bad way have solid footing and legal proceedings and being deemed as actually evil um that courts were taking this seriously the crazy part i think about too is like they have like if you really think about it they have no idea what the fuck is going on like they have no idea like we're saying like back then they were all saying oh they're they have all these nefarious plans and they're literally in their head or just like meow, meow, meow, meow. Like they have literally no idea what's going on. I want chicken. I want liver.

Yeah, literally. Meow mix, meow mix, please be liver. And they're like, oh, they are the spawn of the devil. It's just so weird. Like they had no fucking clue what was happening. No, they just had little fuzzy tummies and paws and they were just, maybe if they ever saw a fish in their life,

it'd be a good day. They were like, ooh, a mouse. Yeah. These poor cats. But also, yeah, it's just, it's wild that they could have no concept of what evil even is. And that they are perceived globally as this apparently.

They're part of a court trial they're like what's a court explaining taxes to an ant it's like yes it's like you're part of my tax deduction it's like what are you talking about religion and witchcraft and court trials and you're all at the forefront of this it's just so absurd to think about it's absurd oh these poor things and so i wonder if that was also part of like the power dynamic right of like oh well we can keep blaming these things that you don't have to what are they gonna do yeah they can't argue back well over time witchcraft and sorcery evolved into the public legal issue it became and courts started interrogating accused witches of conspiring with cats and so this evolved again

where cats weren't direct incarnations of satan but they were witches familiars and that to conspire with black cats you were conspiring with a middle man to satan um which is interesting because i feel like the flip side like they'd start as a middle man and be an evolve into the devil himself you think so whatever things are surprising listen none of this makes much sense so i don't know i'm trying to find logic here so soon black cats were said to help witches in all sorts of ways now that they were seen as their familiars they were known as maybe not performing witchcraft themselves but being um uh some sort of help meat for witchcraft so they were running witches errands like getting ingredients for spells or taking messages to the devil or bewitching your enemies and witches at one point were even said to ride cats like brooms

um which like is the most bizarre thing to be like i can't imagine sitting on a cat and the cat taking off at flight like geo's probably four times heavier than all my cats i could never even sit on geo and get any like he would collapse his arms all of his arms would splat out in different directions like a splat on the ground so i don't understand what type of logic that is but whatever yeah unless by cat they mean like a giant like yeah but yeah so that was apparently a theory at one point but i guess that's the magic of it that it defies physics right i suppose so so in several trials kids bet you know how kids were always like

coerced into saying things yeah it's under duress hate that shit they would say that um cats were sent to them by witches in town which i guess like that that makes me feel sad because maybe that's a kid trying not to blame an adult and oh they were trying to blame a random cat but they were saying oh a cat was sent to me by a witch and the cat made me sick so the witch is poisoning me in some way and some of the some of the sick kids reported that cats would be in the room with them even when others couldn't see them so this could have been mental illness this could have been coercion we don't know um but they would say that there were cats all around them how could nobody else see them and they'd say that the cat would keep them

awake all night so it would keep them from getting better from when they got sick or the cat would bite them and scratch them or like straight up speak to them and like oh god um other witnesses claimed that they did see cat shaped things moving under their blankets, but if they pulled the blanket back, there was never an actual cat. So, you know, take that with a very large grain of salt. I will. And black cats became a prominent symbol of the local witch and local witches were even rumored to be feeding cats her own blood or even breast milk just so

they were connected in some way and oh god crazy like so cats are also vampires like yeah they're like trying to find any ridiculous thing to get people riled up yeah i feel like i'm just listing random accusations from which trials at this point yeah um and this is where we have heard of the phrase before of like witches marks, where basically if you had any fucking blemish, they would use that as an excuse that you're a witch. They said that these witch marks were special nipples to feed their familiars.

For fuck's sake. If you had a birthmark, apparently your cat was suckling from it to... God damn it. To have your blood in them in the 1700s to the 1800s this is when owning a cat as a pet starts to be seen as a good exercise and that's because this is in like royal eng England that like there, even though it seemed as negative and there's witch trials going on, they weren't portrayed very well a lot of times that's why you'll see that old english people had dogs as pets because dogs didn't have the association with acceptable right so in the 17 1800s it was mainly dogs they actually even said

that dogs represented the english because they were loyal and brave and steadfast and yeah and england thought that dogs best represented them but cats were still associated with like rodents and witches so um so don't get a cat um but now let's deep dive this is still in england and this is in the late 1800s where we see a shift because there's this is a bit of a deep dive but this was where i thought like should i add this to my notes yes and then i thought i should in the 1860s people are still getting mainly dogs they're not really into cats there's this one guy who fucking loves cats okay he fucking doesn't care he loves cats his name is harrison weir and he organized the very first cat show what he loved cats before anyone else he wanted

to prove to england how wonderful cats were by displaying them for the world and he called cats this is two quotes in one he called cats possibly the most perfect and certainly the most domestic of animals and an object of increasing interest admiration and uncultured beauty and then oh in comparison to dogs he said cats can unlatch doors or even knock with their paws for admittance they catch rats and mice they are full of scents the dog is generally useless and the cat a pet or not is of service the dog is useless i'm sure people love that yeah especially like fuck you england where like we've been keeping dogs for almost 200 years oh your animal that you associate with what a loser so he hosts his very first show in london at the crystal palace but there was such little interest because nobody fucking liked cats that he had to he realized that

the crystal palace where he was going to host the cat show right there one of the ways that they kept rats low in the palace was because they had all these fucking stray cats everywhere god so he hired workmen to catch the strays and enter them into the competition because he didn't have real entrance for his show because how do you have a cat show where nobody's going to bring in a cat because nobody owns a cat because nobody likes cats so he literally just but you're trying to prove that you that cats are great yeah so he just got a bunch of fucking stray cats and put them in his cat show stop it right now and the show ended up being a success and cats became more welcome in the eyes of the public and they actually show like was it like feats of strength

was it like it was like a like a like a like a dog show today where it's like they like go based on their hoops their no not like a events i think it was like a like a basically a pretty competition like oh so it's just like to show them to show them truly here's a bunch of cats sitting in cages right great although i wonder because there is one cat named fulmer and he was a champion show cat who ended up earning 150 prizes yeah he was so i don't know what the hell fulmer did besides like take a nap in his cage but um so anyway the he it ended up working out really well people liked cats by the. And this actually did almost like a 180 in England because cats went from being like gross pest control and linked with witchcraft to being, I guess, because it was like a cat show. It became cats became associated with like the upper class.

And they became connected to like upper class snobbery so oh my if you're wondering when people think that cats to this day are very like snooty it might go all the way back to the 1860s first cat show um this is bananas so it this helped them become more of a common pet because now even the upper class wanted in on this and in 1887 only like 10 years later harrison weir also founded the national cat club and the next cat show he hosted went from having barely any entrance and had having to use strays to having over 300 cats be entered into his competition fuck up that's hilarious ladies realm magazine they made uh an article they wrote an article about harrison weir saying that he had quote done wonders for the amelioration of pussy

and for that there's my deep dive of applause there's my deep dive um wow so as of the 1900s cats were in with england but a few years before that you know their the colonies in the u.s are being created and this is at the time when cats are still seen as associated with witches black cats are evil um and so when we get to the colonies in the u.s the witch trials become um you know even when they become a thing of the past the folklore of black cats has remained after all this time so um so okay so we're in the u.s now so in southern and appalachian lore now that the you know the stories of black cats have come over to the U.S., there's now lore talking about black cats appearing as familiars for devils and witches and malicious spirits. Black cats have also become associated with crossroads folklore.

And that's where people go to do rituals. And so people thought, oh, if you're at a crossroad, cats could be there. This is also possibly due to the association between cats and Hecate, because she's also a deity linked to crossroads. And today there are a number of superstitions about black cats still being maybe not evil, but still bringing an omen to you or bad luck. So that's where we are in today's world, where people say that a black cat crossing your path brings you bad luck. This could also be rooted in the belief that cats are synonymous with intersections, with girl crossroads. So that's why they cross your path. Oh, I never thought about that. Yeah.

And it could mean that the witch or the devil himself is passing by you. um and it could mean that the witch or the devil himself is passing by you and now we think of the cat the black cat itself as the cause of trouble instead of it being a devil we just think the cat is inherently unlucky right it's also said that black cats if they gather around a house uh that's oh no it said that black cats will gather around a house when there's a dead body inside, like vultures, which is eerie. An Appalachian superstition says that if a cat licks its fur backwards, trouble is on the way. Licks its fur backwards. So looking it down, looking at the other direction. Okay.

If a strange black cat looks through your window, the entire house will have bad luck. Oh. If a black cat wanders through the door of a wake, another family member will soon die. Oh, no. I will say if I was at a wake and I saw a black cat, I would get a little heebie-jeebies out of that. I'd be out of there. I'd be like, who invited this guy? Yeah.

I'd be like, go home. I'd be like, who invited this guy? Yeah. I'd be like, go home. Black cats will climb into babies' cribs and steal their breath while they sleep. Okay. That's a rumor, though. You're saying that's just a... No.

Obviously. Obviously, that's a rumor. I'm just making sure. That's one of the superstitions that if you have a baby, to not let a black cat get near them because they'll climb into the crib and steal their sleep. Yes, I heard that when I was pregnant. Yeah, it's actually an old explanation for SIDS. Yep, yep, yep, yep.

Due to their association with witches, black cats are strongly linked, obviously, to modern day Halloween. And saying a black cat on Halloween is said to be especially bad luck. I don't know if you remember this, but I had a black cat in the early 2000s. Shout out Rocky. In the 2000s, there was a rumor that kind of went everywhere. I thought this predated the 2000s, but I guess this was just of our era that on Halloween, people would try to attack black cats. i remember that because we also had we had two black cats shadow and smoky at that time and they were outdoor cats so we were like uh-oh exactly so there were psas about bringing your cat inside on halloween because people would try to kill cats to

avoid the was that actually true or not really i think it was just a rumor i'm sure there was some asshole who tried but sure just i think that was a rumor okay um but that was it was like to prevent bad luck you kill a black cat but the other rumor is that if you kill a black cat that cat will curse you a baby with jail time yeah i was like i'll fucking curse you if you kill a black cat the legal system will curse you despite their negative association some say that black cats are actually the total opposite and bring you good luck there's another appalachian legend that if you gently tug on a black cat's tail it brings good luck um vikings so try that with sure they love that i love i'm sure they love that theory. Vikings even kept cats on their ships for good luck and an old Irish remedy for sore eyes.

Get ready, Christine, do this with Moonshine. Dip a black cat's tail in cream, eye cream, rub the tail on your eyes three times in a circular motion, chanting, may I be cured.

You know what you can also do eyes for dry eyes it's eye cream it's like well it's fucking eye cream just rub that on your eyes you don't need are you sure it's not like cream like cream cream i think it's eye cream oh okay either way cream i imagine it's like it's i feel like you're doing something to your i don't think the black cat's tail is specifically doing either one i think you're doing something to your I don't think the black cat's tail is specifically doing anything. I don't think either one. I think you're just getting cat hair in your eyes and it's watering them up. And now they're tearing up.

And they're puffing up. Yeah. And then maybe you have an allergy. I don't know. Well, so there's give that a shot and let me know. I won't. But thanks. Another Appalachian tradition is to rub a cat's tail on your eyelid

to get rid of a stye. I would argue that causes a stye. Let's not do that either, guys. Let's not. And then there's also folklore that says that black cats can predict weather. And if there's one Irish rumor that if cats are scratching on a chair or sitting with their back to a fire, rumor that if cats are scratching on a chair or sitting with their back to a fire rain is to come oh if a black cat walks into your house we're almost done i swear if a black cat walks into your house through the front door it brings good luck to your entire home but now i'm confused if it walks through the front door but if it crosses your path is it a net positive what's going on oh does it cancel itself out yeah um many occultists today have older opinions on black cats and still associate them with protectors of bad spirits and

thus the black cat as a witch is familiar is you know still at play a lot of times right and today i want to see if you can guess today, the top three countries with the most cat owners are. Top three countries. Like, OK, the U.S.? The U.S. is number three with 43 percent of households having a cat. OK. Who has a cat? Sweden.

Sweden. No, it's it's number one is russia with 59 of households and ukraine with 49 of us wow i would not have guessed russia or ukraine so there you go so we come in third um all right and then the last thing i'm going to say this is my last fun fact and it is a quote from the collector um what the what the collector the collector it's a website oh okay that sounds very scary the collector it does the cat sounds like it could be a collector of souls yeah it sounds like a criminal minds character villain you know no no this is just an article on the history of black cats or cats in general i guess but this is what they had to say the british government offices are old and built in an area where there has always been problems with rodent

infestations since the early 16th century a cat has always been employed by the government to deal with the problem today the current holder of the title of chief mouser to the cabinet office is larry who has held the position since 2011 and has served through the three administrations of prime ministers i love him so shout out to larry for doing or lawrence if you're feeling a little more posh chief lawrence the mouser to the cabinet office the mouser okay i Cabinet Office. The Mouser! Okay, I'm sorry to scream, but that's delightful. Really delightful. So anyway, that's the last thing I have to say about it, but that is the 101 to Black Cat lore.

Oh, Em, you did such a good job. Thank you. I never even thought about that as a topic. It's so good. I thought, you know, that's a good pre-halloween situation you know question did you know anybody growing up who like truly believed in who was like anti-black cat like i'm curious if you had someone in your life who was like very anti-black i always heard about it as like uh like it was always understood to be a wives tale.

Okay, well, why did you? Because my, yeah, my stepmother was so, so against black cats. Not in a jokey way, not in like a, oh, I'm just superstitious. Like she genuinely believed that they would do harm if they were in her vicinity. So yeah, so when we had two black cats, she would park at the end of the street and we'd have to walk home because she was like i'm not even shitting you and i'm talking sorry the cats were not at her house the cats were at my mom's house but when she dropped us off at our mom's house like when she found out we got a black cat she parked at the bottom of the hill and we had to walk up because she was like i'm not letting the cat cross my

path and we were like it's wild that's not real and it's a kitten and it's like six months old it's fine and she was like i won't i won't so we were like okay i don't think i had anything like that with black cats but i do actually know quite a few people who are actually still to this day terrified to walk under a ladder yes oh yeah and she i will say she was it wasn't just uh preserved for black hats it was every possible uh superstition salt like i was taught how to throw salt over my shoulder at a very young age um the the ladders friday the 13th doesn't leave the house like all of it like hard core you know it's interesting to me the we've already covered the number 13 before but it i mean it is wild how like a superstition can be

can prevail so much so like to this day like elevators don't have a 13th floor hotels won't have a 13th floor like and it like dictates a lot of her life like no kidding i mean even like the uh sidewalk cracks like every little thing that you've heard as being like a potential superstition is something she takes like you know how sometimes you're like oh knock on wood just in case like for her it's a very very very real thing like it's based in reality sounds like a like a like a ocd thing too yeah i mean as somebody with ocCD now like or you know who's been finally diagnosed and understands what that is I look at it and I'm like huh you know but you know I'm no no doctor but uh it does have similar vibes to that so I

agree with you um but I don't know it's uh it's just something that used to drive me crazy because i would have to take my backpack in my school uniform and walk up you know that's wild steep ass hill just because she didn't want to that is a steep ass hill oh yeah it is right that's true you've seen it it's a steep ass fucking hill i mean also you were living in a cemetery like wednesday adams imagine if like a black cat happened to also be i have in your cemetery hilarious pictures of the black of our black cats uh sitting in the cemetery because people would go in there and see the black cats and you could hear them from our if i had my window open you could hear people being like oh my god a black cat in the cemetery.

And I'm like, Shadow, like we've been trying to train him not to go in the cemetery. But they would just sit on the gravestones. And I'm like, you two know what you're doing. You're just like a walking vibe. I just feel like they knew what they were doing. They were like, we know we're causing a ruckus in this neighborhood. They were like, we'll get him. We'll get him.

Don't worry. We'll get him this time. Yeah. I thought it was hilarious. Some people not so much but i love black cats i will say sorry i was just gonna say i love black cats but like my white so i have very white cat very black cat my white cat is definitely the more like scary one oh yeah juniper's terrifying moonshine is more intense yeah like if anyone's gonna be the devil himself it's definitely juniper not moonshine i was actually on um before people freak out no i'm not actually serious about it but i was bored last night

and for like chuckles i was on pet finder oh we all do that yeah don't worry it's like zillow but pets so i was like i was like let me just see if i were to adopt a pet right now which one would i adopt um and i've always thought i mean black cats are my number one favorite and i also really like the black and gray striped ones like the really tight stripes yeah oh yeah they're so cute um but white cats i don't like them i have a weird visceral reaction to them. And Juniper really confirms it for me. But you know what is his redeeming quality?

Is the different colored eyes. Oh, yeah. See, that cracks me up about him. He has those blue and green eyes. There's something about it where I'm like, I'm intrigued, but from a distance. But white cats and I seemingly have never gotten along very well. That cracks me up because also all we know know about juniper because he was a stray but he was born to um a black and white like tuxedo cat and then the mom was a turkish angora and so I looked up turkish angora and because they're they have that double eye color thing. And they're described as the Turkish prince cat breed.

And I'm like, well, that fits perfectly well. It's a very like Lady and the Tramp situation because the other cat was just like a black and white street cat. And the mom was like a princess, you know. What was their kid's name? Scamp. Lady and the in the tramp their son was named so i guess juniper is the scamp of the household although he's the opposite of the he's like the other other sibling who's like no i'm more like mom right okay got it got it oh but anyway i love my my kitty cats well good job em job, Em. That was really good.

Thank you. Thank you. I didn't know any of that. I'm ready to be bummed out. Okay. I feel like I fucked up because I did not bring like a Halloween-y episode because next episode is Halloween episode. So I was like, I'm going to go all out for the Halloween episode. This one is horribly upsetting.

Well, do what you do best, Christine, and tell us all about it. Sorry. I don't know if you can tell. My palms are already drenched in sweat because I'm nervous. Okay. So this is the story of Heather Mayer. And just a little note here. This case is still active. It's relatively recent. So a lot of this information comes from one particular source, which is a thorough investigative journalism piece by Andy Mannix. it it's one of those pieces where i'm like oh i'll just skim it but then i end up like

really invested and read the whole thing look through all the photos and the it's a really well done piece so if you're interested in that go check it out uh andy manix interviewed people involved in the case poured over official reports and listened to recorded police interviews to put together this story and because the case is open there's not really any like dateline on it yet or like any um you know contemporary tv shows that have covered it so it's like a relatively new case that's very um unlike you because i know i feel like characteristically you usually wait until you've got the answer at the end or a lot of people have covered it. Yeah.

I'm thinking that I think I think this is one that Saoirse reached out to me, our researcher, and was like, hey, what do you think about this one? Because like a lot of times I'll say, oh, here are the ones I want to cover soon. Like, let's start researching. But I think this one Saoirse was like, hey, I just like my my eye. It just caught my eye, you know, and I was like, go for it. So I was really new to the case as well uh and then sersha also wrote another note here saying i want to call attention to the use of the word victim in this story because uh you know as we're discussing the word spooky and all the you know the meaning of words um you know i'm not gonna say i'm not gonna

come in so hot like we did last time. But I'm going to say, you know, this is something I didn't really think about. But I guess it's just important to think about our words, you know, like think, think about language, even if we continue using it and stuff. It's always nice to kind of know where it comes from, know what it, its intended meaning is. And, um, apparently there are, uh, several people within the story who refer to be called survivors instead of victims, which I think is an affair, you know, but you know, there are people in the story who did not survive. And so for that, we would use the word victim in this case, but we're trying to use it as sensitively as possible. It's just, you know, it's just another word to kind of think about, especially

in the true crime space. I feel like these words are so loaded. And so just something to think about. In any case, this is the story of Heather Mayer. I want to, and I don't often do this, but I want to give a massive trigger warning for domestic violence, sexual violence. It's really fucked up. I'm so sorry, you guys. It's really fucked up. Ready? Mm-hmm.

As the mouthpiece for everybody. Yep. I'm so sorry. Ready? Mm-hmm. As the mouthpiece for everybody. Yep. I'm so sorry. Okay, here we go. So Heather Mayer grew up in Nurstrand, Minnesota, which is a rural and quiet town with a population of just 273 as of the 2020 census and heather's mother tracy detling was unfortunately already experiencing a very difficult life just one of those like um what was the phrase we accidentally used when we were trying to describe that book where we were like bad things happening only

uh by lemony snicket yeah a series of unfortunate series of yeah yeah yeah it felt like that was already tracy's heather's mother's experience because her first child lucas died of sids as a baby then her daughter at age 19 was in a terrible car accident and she became quadriplegic with lifelong cognitive disabilities just like freak accidents both both of them so far wow wow and so then there was heather and heather grew up despite all this trauma within her family like pretty quote-unquote normally for kids her age in this town she went to local church and football games she played, spent long weekends at a cabin exploring and having fun. Loved to read, especially romance novels. Was very witty, creative, had a

really fun sense of humor, loved to make people laugh. But she was also struggling pretty deeply because, I mean, these things seem to come in threes. Heather, Tracy's third daughter, third child, I'm sorry, was raped as a teenager by two men who gave her a ride home and refused to let her out of the car until she gave in to their demands. And so this sent her in a lifelong kind of anxiety spiral and just contributed to a lot of mental health issues she had, mostly disabling anxiety that basically made it impossible for her to function throughout the day. And it was, I mean, debilitating, you know, and that was starting at age 16. So she really struggled. She dropped out of high school. She started sneaking out and was you know having

sex with people and this was kind of a coping mechanism you know for trying to gain control back after being sexually assaulted she did eventually get her GAD but even work you know as an as an adult was difficult uh with the intense anxiety she had. She had a kind-hearted and protective nature. And just as an example of that, when she was 17, she met a teenage boy who lived under a local bridge, and she really wanted to help him. And so as she was trying to help him get back on his feet, they actually ended up in a romantic relationship in which Heather became pregnant, and the two of them got married. So Heather gave birth to their first son and then two more boys in the following year. So they had

three kids together. But unfortunately, you know, her marriage to their father didn't last. And by age 25, she was a single mother with these three kids. What Heather was seeking this whole time was some sense of community, like a place to belong somewhere where she felt like understood and safe. And she found that place in the BDSM scene. Sure. So BDSM, for those who don't know, stands for bondage and discipline, dominance and submission, sadism and masochism. And, you know, I think a lot of us nowadays are much more aware of how the kind of bad rap it got over the years is not quite correct. No, it's not. It's misunderstood. Do you know what I mean? Very misunderstood. You and I've talked about this just as like as a concept, you know, and I feel like people kind of have sometimes get the wrong idea about that community. surrounding BDSM. But to those who are involved in it, like that's the norm. It makes perfect sense because people who engage in BDSM, very strict rules and regulations to keep it safe

for the people involved, very structured, very welcoming place, unlike what you might hear, you know, on TV or in the media. So people who engage in BDSM often describe it as an exchange of power where one partner consents to submit to another partner who consents to dominate. So you've got like a dom relationship, sub-relationship. When executed correctly, it's a healthy, consensual relationship that gives people in either role a strong sense of control over their own bodies and lives and that's what's so appealing to so many people bdsm activities are called scenes because participants agree beforehand on what they will do as if sort of following a script that's been set in advance

yeah it's very i was gonna say it's also i know it's very, I was gonna say, it's also, I know it's very, very heavily based in communication and trust. So like there's no communication. That's a big one. Yeah. There's, you know, there's, you're not going into things without, I'm talking about it. Like I'm part of this community. I, I have friends though. So that's just about every question. Um, but yeah, it's, it's a very, um, you, if you're, if you're not completely transparent from the beginning and you're not with a partner you trust, it's not happening. Yeah. You need to be really on board with being, with following the rules to make sure everyone feels safe and has a good experience. It just can get twisted and abused by the wrong people,

as we will see in this story, unfortunately. So BDSM activities, they're called scenes because it's sort of like a scripted situation. They use strict boundaries, open communication, and safe words to ensure the safety of everyone involved and like the comfort of everyone involved as well. Many people who participate are actually survivors of past sexual violence and other abuse and they feel that BDSM allows them to reclaim control over their bodies and work through their trauma among like-minded people with shared experiences. And just to clarify, that's not to say everyone who is, you know know in the BDSM community is doing it because they were uh you know sexually assaulted that's not at all what I'm saying but

there are definitely some people who find it a very cathartic and healing way to deal with past trauma like that and that is where Heather comes in because because that is how Heather felt. She was like, you know what? This is a great place for me to feel like I'm in control of my sexuality and body after being, you know, brutally assaulted all those years ago. Research has found that not only are people in the BDSM community no more likely to experience relationship issues or trauma than the general population, but in many cases, they are actually happier and more fulfilled, which is interesting. And according to Dr. Filippo M. NIMBY, a researcher of clinical psychology and sex, quote, people engaging in BDSM are usually people who have thought a lot about their sexuality. They have explored and faced their sexual boundaries. Basically, they know what they like and they do it.

This is a positive outcome on their sexual experiences and on the overall quality of their lives. So BDSM is often an extremely social activity with multiple participants. Some are engaging in the acts with one another. Others are watching. But the community is highly self-policing with widely agreed upon rules. And you have to agree to those rules before you join. Heather played a vital part in her community. She was a moderator for an online BDSM group with hundreds of members who also got together in person for casual meetups and parties.

And basically, Heather's job was to vet new members and keep out those people who are predators and were just trying to use BDSM to veil abusive behaviors and violate people's consent. Yeah, that was her main task as part of this group. Yeah, that's great. Many people relied on Heather and admired her dedication to protecting their safety, protecting their community. But unfortunately, even the most informed, self-assured people can, of course, become victims of abuse. Although some people, sure, are more vulnerable to abuse due to social and socioeconomic factors, mental health factors, what have you Abuse, as we know, can happen to anyone. So Heather, this is where the asshole comes into the picture. She begins a relationship with a man named Ahsan Karam, who identified as a dom or a dominant. Ahsan grew up in the Twin Cities, and he got into martial arts at a young age to defend

himself against frequent bullying. As part of this journey, he became a professional MMA, mixed martial arts fighter, but he retired early due to an injury. And that's when he began working as a security guard in St. Paul and also joined the local BDSM scene and became an active member. So Ahsan was 36 years old and he was already living with a 24-year-old woman named Bella Brie when he started seeing Heather for the second time. That's because he had actually dated Heather many years before, very casually.

So fast forward, they reconnect. He's already living with a young woman named Bella. And Bella was a student at the University of Minnesota, but she had to drop out for medical reasons because she was undergoing several back surgeries. So she was struggling to get back on her feet, literally and metaphorically and she was about to lose her apartment when she met asan on tinder and it felt like like fate right like oh gosh okay yeah let's just uh throw out the term that i'm gonna talk about in a moment called love bombing um asan immediately began to shower bella with gifts and affection this is oftentimes an abuse tactic within the dynamic of an abusive relationship uh often a manipulation tactic used to make someone dependent on the abuser or or almost give the abuser control make the

other person feel safe and taken care of before things turn in a darker direction before long asan asked bella to move in with him because she was struggling to keep her own living situation together and she happily agreed they got married in march of 2018 which was only seven months after they met and once they got married asan had bella sign a submission contract oh so yeah this submission contract named asan as bella's owner he would dictate when she slept when she woke up her exercise routine when she was allowed to eat, when she was allowed to eat, and when she was required to have sex with him. Failure to comply with the contract resulted in physical punishment. So apparently such contracts are not uncommon in the BDSM scene, but Ehsan took things beyond

consensual, which is where it becomes not part of the BDSM scene because consent is a huge part of BDSM. Yeah. I'm over, like, I'm, I'm down with people signing contracts and, you know, BDSM and all. I just, I already, you already said the asshole. You know what's coming, right? Like we know what's coming. I'm primed to hate this. Yeah. I mean, I've already told you it's an abusive relationship. So saying like he controls when she has sex with him is the biggest red flag we've ever heard yeah yeah yeah so just the fact that this is not about a consensual dynamic it's

about an agreement for him to control every aspect of her life without her consent is where you know immediately obviously yeah it's not about bsm anymore he just wants control of a person yes correct so he often had other women staying in the house under false pretenses as well uh there was one woman who moved in named morgan and he told even though he's married to bella at this point he told morgan that that Bella was an ex-girlfriend who was just staying in his house because her mom died recently. And since he was Bella's owner, he demanded, he ordered Bella to go along with this story and pretend to openly mourn her mother, who was, by the way, still alive, for weeks as part of this weird story he was telling women to like get them to stay in his house so essentially he now has a second woman living there under the pretense that oh Bella's just an ex-girlfriend and her mom died recently look how sad she is so yikes eventually Ahsan and

Heather reconnect and they start seeing each other again. And Heather began staying over several nights a week before moving into the house as well as the third woman under the roof in autumn of 2018. Heather and Bella became friends and Heather would go out of her way to make Bella smile, like surprising her at work with a picnic they shared, sitting on the hood of their car. work with a picnic they shared sitting on the hood of their car and before long asan of course started abusing all three women under the pretense of bdsm relationships this is where things get very dark folks he started beating them violently beyond anything they'd consented to with objects they never approved of, including metal pipes. Sometimes Heather's and Morgan's children stayed in the house, and the women had to endure violence silently so their children wouldn't hear it. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

Morgan later reported that Ahsan even beat her until he broke her ribs, and he beat them until they would sometimes pass out from the pain and then he would post photos of their bruises to social media under the guise of consensual bdsm being like look what a fun time we had whoa whoa this one's upsetting they're upsetting, but this one made me jump a little bit. Ahsan once took a video holding Heather's head underwater in a bathtub. So it's torture. It's torture. It's torture. She ended up with pneumonia, bronchitis, and an ear infection from that experience. Oh, my God.

She once texted Ahsan about his cruelty and abuse, saying, You are going to hurt someone or kill someone someday. Ahsan was drinking excessively, and despite the situation, Heather still wanted to help him. It was just kind of her nature. In one message, he insulted her and called her slow. Heather responded, I am not. I'm intelligent, resourceful, helpful, and kind. I'm not always perfect, and I have my less than pretty moments, but I'm a pretty good person who just chooses the wrong

men to be with. What's crazy is how smart you are, and instead of using it to have a great life and happiness, you would rather hide and do nothing and stay in all of this chaos. Wow. Good for her. I know. So yeah, that gives you an idea of that dynamic. wow good for her i know so that yeah that gives you an idea of like that dynamic i also so two questions one is and you may not know these but how was she able to say something like that to him without repercussion and two was she or any of these women because it sounds like they were able to leave and go to work and stuff like that, were they afraid to go to the police? Or did they think because I signed a contract, there's nothing they can do about it?

So I don't know the answer to the first question. I mean, my guess is that she probably was punished for that. punished for that. But as for your second question, I do have a little bit of information on that in a couple bullet points. So once I share those, let me know if that answers it or not. Okay. I'll get to that momentarily. I think I think it might answer your question. So, you know, true toather's protective nature and trying to keep people safe she often took beatings on behalf of the other two women whenever she could like she would try to step in the way to get to keep them to spare them from any of the the abuse what a so hero i know i know i know so in answer to your second question about, you know, was it fear keeping them? Was it the contract?

Well, in December of 2018, Morgan actually made her getaway in fear for her life. While Ahsan was at work, her co-worker helped her move into an apartment rented under his name so that Ahsan couldn't find her. an apartment rented under his name so that a son couldn't find her and what's really kind of a sweet twist to the story which is probably the only sweet twist to the story is that for more happily for morgan uh the man who helped her move into an apartment under his name they actually fell in love got married bought a house and had a child together so very like prince charming you know like he saved the day um but heather and bella were still stuck with asan and again i think this might add a little more context as well to your question but heather and bella were stuck there because in early 2019 police responded to a call from heather because she had broken up

with asan and he had attacked her locked her out of the house with her children still inside oh shit police had to break a window to get inside and asan actually tried to grab one of the officer's guns in the process so in the end he was taken to jail temporarily on domestic abuse charges and obstruction of justice. And Heather filed a no contact order and vowed to stay away from his son. But as we know, all too well, leaving an abuser isn't simple or easy. It can be extremely dangerous because abusers often follow through with their threats of retaliation. abusers often follow through with their threats of retaliation. Many abuse victims fear for the lives not only of their own lives, but of their friends, their children, their relatives, because abusers know how to make threats that are genuinely terrifying, like to threaten your

family, your children, your co-workers, like it goes beyond just a threat to your life. It goes to your own circle. The layers to the onion are deeper than, you know, yeah. And it's, it's breaking up with an abuser is not a linear situation. No, definitely not. Definitely not. One study actually found that 20% of homicide victims related to intimate partner violence were not even the the victims themselves. They were actually family members, new intimate partners, friends, acquaintances, police officers and strangers instead of the actual immediate abuse victims themselves. So 20 percent of deaths involved are like not even of, you know, it's just people who are collateral damage, collateral damage. And that's almost scarier a lot of times than threats to yourself because like the last thing you want is someone to hurt your parents, your children,

you know, as part of this. So, and it seems like oftentimes abusers will go through with those threats. So of course, Ahsan had emotional control over Heather, and she definitely feared what he was capable of. She had lived with him for a long time, and she also felt like this was her home. She had lived there for so long. She had known him for so long. Her children lived there. And victims of abuse are also conditioned to rely on their abusers for emotional and often financial security. So in the end, as you said, not a linear process by any means. Heather actually asked the court to lift her no contact order against Ahsan. She changed her mind while he

sent her texts instructing her how to downplay the abuse that she suffered. So Ahsan told Heather to tell the judge she suffered from bipolar disorder and that she stopped taking her medications. And that's what led to her accusations against him. Wow. Yikes. Wow. It seems apparently like even the attorney, his attorney, instructed Heather on how to lift the order, which was a huge legal conflict and also ethically

a big ethical violation um knowing about the abuse and saying oh here's how here's how here's what to say to the judge to get my client off the hook and the scariest thing too is like i can't imagine the um additional punishments or rage that she would be going home to and and even think about bella who was because now one of the girls has already left and didn't come back for a second heather was gone so poor bella was getting the brunt of three people exactly with with an angry man who's she's like the only victim left yeah the only i again i'm saying victim see i'm trying to think more sure you know open-mindedly or what have you or think about my words but yeah she's the only woman left as you said to like bear the brunt of this yeah when when usually it was spread across three people and he was already one level of angry

now imagine incredibly angry and she's the only one there. Right. Right. When Heather comes back, imagine like the quote punishment she's getting for putting him through all that turmoil. And if she doesn't follow his instructions and his lawyer's instructions, I'm sure that would only make the punishment worse. if he knows i'm just trying to think like an abuser at this point but just to follow along but like if if her whole thing was always like essentially volunteering his tribute every time that he wanted to hurt somebody and he knows that she wants to protect you know bella and the other girl like when she comes back her punishment might be watching Bella get beaten up or something of like look what you did you know yeah I have to imagine part of the suffering or stress or like turmoil in her mind too is like what's happening to Bella while I'm gone like yeah can I should I go back and like make sure she's okay I mean that's got to be one of the reasons that she even went back because you know he said something to her about like I'm gonna hurt Bella if you don't come back yeah it's something it's

definitely at least implied threats you know whether they were spoken or not but just a very very scary and complex situation and it just nothing I mean nothing angers me more than people who just say like, well, then leave, you know. I can't say. Well, it's just, there's no faster way to out yourself as someone who's never been through it. Right. Exact point. Great point. Great point.

Great point. attorney apparently instructed heather on how to lift the order which was a huge conflict of interest an ethical violation and the judge even commented that it would probably be good for heather's children to get back together with asan to have a stable family life with asan who said that the judge oh oh yeah oh yeah are you kidding me inf me? It's infuriating. It's infuriating. So the order was lifted in June of 2019. I mean, it was at Heather's request, but still very shady situation. Two weeks later. Okay.

What? Nothing. I was going to ask. I hear 2019, and I know what's around the corner which is 2020 well does okay let's just go back to 2019 because so june of 2019 the order is lifted lifted two weeks later at age 33 years old heather was dead oh on july 4th 2019 police responded to the house heather shared with his son to a call from bella apparently heather had hanged herself in the basement when police arrived a woman woman named Holly was doing chest compressions on Heather. She immediately told police that Heather had bipolar disorder and hadn't taken

her meds earlier, which was kind of an eerie echo of Ahsan's manipulation tactics. Like, tell the judge you have bipolar. Initially, Holly reported that Ahsan was at work when Heather died, but a little bit later, she actually told police that a son had been there when Heather died and he'd help her. He'd helped her take Heather down from the chain before they called police. Then she explained that he fled the scene while Holly did CPR. And Holly explained it by saying, we know how it looks because of like the domestic violence. Yeah. Yeah. how it looks because of like the domestic violence yeah yeah so police briefly spoke with a son at the house later that night and he told them heather had willingly climbed into the chain

which strangled her and that she had the keys and could have released herself at any time he said he left heather alone in the chain although he did check on her several times throughout the night and when he found her dead they called the police right away according to him the police asked asan to do an interview and asan told them to contact his lawyer but there is no record that the police ever followed up with him again what what they observed the scene. They saw sex and drug paraphernalia in the basement with Heather. She was undressed. And they immediately ruled the death a suicide.

And said, the end. Case closed. That takes my breath away fully. It is breathtaking. In the worst way. I wish this was the first time on this show I had something nasty to say about the police and their lack of investigative skills. How do you... What?

Fortunately. Okay. Death investigator Brianna Dibble of the Hennepin County Medical Examiner's Office was not convinced. One person had some, you know. A woman, by the way? A little insight. Yeah. Yeah, a woman. Funny. She had investigated hundreds of deaths in her career and she had never seen a woman commit suicide while naked.

That was actually the thing that stood out to her the most. Oh. Oh. Heather's children were upstairs and she thought it was unlikely Heather would risk one of them finding her without clothes on. And like just seriously strong note here, this is not to shame victims of suicide who like would take their lives in other circumstances. Right. Brianna herself, just based on her own professional and personal experience found this very unusual and it was a red flag and she also noted the many injuries covering heather's body police told brianna not to bother with any homicide investigation protocol regarding heather's body

they had even covered her with a dirty sheet which contaminated the scene oh my god i know oh my god Oh, my God. I know. Oh, my God. But Brianna followed homicide protocol anyway. So she did, but the police had already made up their minds. This is when Tracy, Heather's mom, comes back into the picture. Okay. Tracy gets a call about her daughter's death, and she rushes to her grandchildren and then asks police if a son had killed Heather. She did not believe Heather would die by suicide, especially with her own children in the house. And Tracy already knew about Ahsan's abuse. She had actually pleaded with Heather to leave him, and she was convinced

that Ahsan was actually the cause of her daughter's death. However, the county ultimately decided not to file any charges related to Heather's death. And this is when Tracy went on a rampage. She demanded everything from the county. She wanted documents, reports, everything down to police body cam footage, all of it. She wanted access to all of it. And as she was getting this information, she realized very quickly that things were not adding up so after bella's initial short interview with the police the day heather's body was found she later told investigators that isan and holly had actually coached her on what to say she admitted it was all about just making sure i don't say that he left her there that she did it herself so now bell is basically saying asan made me say all

those things to police like oh no it was all her right i mean i feel like we all saw that coming to do with it exactly she said quote he was there with her and he left her there chained by the neck in the basement by herself while they were doing alcohol and cocaine. I don't think she took her life. And that's like a damning statement from someone who lives in the house, knows Heather very well, is close with her and is in essentially the same relationship with a son that Heather is. So it's someone who really intimately knows the details of this relationship. So if she's saying, I don't think she was the one who took her life, like that should count for something, in my opinion. Yeah, definitely. So it was vital for Ahsan that everyone believed Heather put herself in the chain and had access to the key to free herself at any time.

at any time but bella said that when she discovered heather was dead and tried to call the police asan and holly said they needed to find the key to get her down first so she helped them search for 10 minutes until asan said he found the key right at heather's feet which bella said did not make sense to me yeah how convenient how fucking convenient he unlocked heather took her down and told police the key was right there for Heather to use all along. She just didn't use it. Uh-huh. Mm-hmm. Bella also told police she had seen Heather in handcuffs with her hands behind her back the morning she died, and the autopsy photos showed contusions on her wrists.

So if Heather were handcuffed around her back, she wouldn't have even been able to use the key that was supposed to take the chain off of her neck. The second that I heard, oh, she had the key on her. It's like, no, she didn't. What are you talking about? Or if she did, if she felt herself dying, she would have done something about it. Like, so immediately I knew that was bullshit. OK, well, he's claiming it's suicide so he's saying oh she must have like tossed the key or you know intentionally not it sounds like key nobody else is playing that game no and and it doesn't make a lot of sense

especially if her hands were literally tied behind her back yeah okay like that's like was she houdini no yeah exactly exactly so i love this about tracy heather's mom she guesses her daughter's passwords and accesses her social media which i love uh her social medias and texts and she finds messages where heather says asan did not respect her safe word red uh red is actually somewhat of a universal safe word in the BDSM community. And a common safe word is actually useful in social settings so that if there are multiple people involved in scenes, they know, everyone kind of knows when a person is asking to pause so they can keep a scene safe, even from the outside, which I think is really cool. So smart. I didn't even think about that i know fun fact so when someone uses their safe word the the supposed way that this is supposed to go

is that everyone involved in the scene should stop to see what the person needs immediately no hesitation no it's safe word means stop in messages heather described asan violating that rule and this breaks my heart like really makes me upset it says she texted him i said red so many times oh it's fucking heartbreaking so you know she was like desperate she's trying to get out of the situation oh my god in another message to asan she accused him of using kink to justify abuse which is absolutely what's happening using heather's phone tracy got in touch with morgan the one who had uh you know left uh a while before the third woman that had been living there and she agreed to make a statement to the police as well about asan's abuse and she also sent tracy an image from assange's social media in

which he was subjecting heather to violence and humiliation under the guise of bdsm online and sharing these things without her consent ready for the caption he wrote under uh one photo um what he posted a photo of her of heather uh you know in bad shape and wrote pray for this bitch y'all she's got a rough month ahead of her and bella was able to confirm that the photo was taken while heather's protective order against asan was still active so whoa the reality was that heather never actually managed to achieve any distance from asan to consider her options and leave for good so even when she had that statement in place he was still managing to keep her under his thumb and it confirms us saying like imagine the punishment she's going to get from precisely precisely like that piece of paper did nothing as we see time and time again

morgan sent investigators a video of asan choking her while she was drunk and high and when apparently she didn't want to participate in scenes or record them asan would make her drink alcohol and smoke weed until she was unable to refuse. And the flip side of that is unable to consent. So she said, quote, in the video, you can see that I'm just not there at all. The investigator she spoke to, this is going to make your blood boil,

remained skeptical that any crime had occurred. He seemed to think willingness to participate in BDSM meant Ahsan's victims automatically consented to everything and therefore couldn't be abused. I mean, that's like people who... So she was asking for it. She wanted it, yeah. And this is like the same, in my mind,

a very similar thought process as people who say oh if you're married you can't be raped like by your partner because or like if you're a sex worker you're asking for it yeah for rape yeah exactly it's that same idea of like well you agreed to this uh contract so it's very dark very dark oh my Oh, my God. And even. Yeah. And it just goes to show you how, you know, I'm not even not trying to accidentally become like, you know, the advocates of BDSM here. But like this just goes to show you that, like, which, like, I mean, I guess we can be the advocates of BDSM, whatever. But I think they didn't ask for us to be.

But I didn't ask for us to be but i didn't ask for it either but um like this just goes to show how much further we need to go in educating people because all that so he was just riding off of a misconception again of like oh well you're a bunch of like sex freaks and yeah beyond comprehension pain and getting tied up so So he beat you up. Isn't that what you wanted? There's just such a lack of understanding of nuance of. What a fucking asshole. Oh, my God. It is.

It's deeply disturbing. He actually he went on. So there's more for you here. He compared Morgan's, quote, participation in the scenes to being coerced into a boxing match. He said, quote, You can't come back a month later and say, hey, I didn't agree to get my ass kicked, but at the same time, you agreed to fight. Oh, my God.

It's, it's, I don't know that person. That ain't it, buddy. That ain't it. It's, it's, I don't know this person, and I'm not trying to, like, you know, throw direct accusations at this person, but people who say things like that i i would never allow you to like keep my drink safe like no like you're telling me that like like i wonder what your history is with women like or anyone like i'm just i'm just if that's your the way that you think, I would, I'm just curious what else is going on behind closed doors.

I don't trust, I don't trust you. Let's put it that way. I don't really trust you with my safety. No. No, no, couldn't. But with pressure and evidence mounting, police reluctantly agreed to reopen the case, and the investigation led to another survivor of asan's abuse 32 year old gabby schmeichel she was new to bdsm and was looking for an experienced and caring mentor she followed morgan bella and heather on social media and thought that if experienced women like them associated with asan he must be a safe person which is a fair assumption right she's like i trust these women i know that they've you know they know what they're doing in the bdsm space with Ahsan, he must be a safe person, which is a fair assumption, right? She's like, I trust these women. I know that they've, you know, they know what they're doing in the BDSM space. And

if they're all with Ahsan, like he must be someone I can trust. Right. Obviously, unfortunately, that was not the case. So the day after Heather's death, Ahsan arranged a meetup with Gabby. She noticed there was a weird vibe in the house but nobody told her that heather had been found dead the day before in the house she was just like this the vibe is off yeah the vibe is off yeah you're right girl run the vibe is off trust your gut trust your gut isan told gabby if she wanted to be involved with him she'd need to pass an audition which for fuck's sake yeah i knew you would love that which entailed her allowing asan to do anything he wanted to her with no safe word and no limits what yeah so he's not even fucking playing the game anymore no he's not even pretending how and right after a death just

happened to you when after heather's death wouldn't you be so anal to make sure that you didn't look at all like a dangerous right person like and now this is when you're picking to just say, oh, forget all of the rules in this very rule, like very heavily rule oriented space. Yeah. Yes. Rule or rule oriented industry or field or whatever. And to be like, oh, we're not going to do a contract. We're not going to do a safe word. If you don't have a safe word, I don't know enough about BDSM. So this could be I maybe I don't know enough. But in my my interpretation of it is if you don't have a safe word you're not doing BDSM like I feel like that's not how it works it feels like there's a very stand there's a standard for these relationships like yes the safe word is there

for a very important reason arguably like one of the most important reasons to keep everyone safe i mean i can't imagine a bigger red flag yeah big red especially if he's saying like oh yeah i'm definitely safe to be around but in order to get to that relationship with me you first have to do this the opposite you have to feel completely unsafe and have no limits and no safe word but you're also totally right you're totally right that like she would have seen that like oh these other people who are really confident in the bdsm world are with this guy so like maybe like for years maybe there's something maybe i shouldn't be as worried like i can totally see the mind game of like yeah and she's like brand new to this this whole experience so for her she's like well maybe that's normal. You know, how would she know? Yeah. It's really, really dangerous that he's like giving this false reality to people of like what BDSM really is not.

there was no consent there was no saying no this man is trained in jujitsu he's an mma fighter what am i going to do against him and he beat her relentlessly until she fled for her own safety but somehow asan convinced gabby to give him another chance which makes me think he must have some narcissistic qualities about him to be able to charm these people right back into his life you know what i mean like she fled and he somehow talked her into coming back for another chance i mean he's he's had some narcissistic tendencies from the beginning yes yes i guess i mean he must be more charming than i'm picturing him to be because yeah i yeah he's got something manipulative something that he's drawing people back with you know and so he she gave him another chance but the abuse continued until she filed a police report against him the police told her there wasn't really a case because it all happened

in the context of bdsm and her report went nowhere. I want to lose my surprise. I know. Meanwhile, Tracy, thankfully, this is Heather's mom, had made some headway in her daughter's case. Ahsan was going to be charged with violating the protective order Heather had against him before her death. So at least something is moving. His lawyer was also being investigated. Remember, because I said she was coaching heather to help her own client which was like a big no-no and meanwhile asan moved on to another woman he met on a dating app named stephanie chow asan had moved he moved to tucson arizona and immediately jumped right back into his old bullshit.

Ahsan subjected her to the same violence he used on the other women in his life until Stephanie knew she was in grave danger. One day, a domestic violence call came in to the Tucson police. The responding officer arrived to find Stephanie sprinting at full speed down a sidewalk with Ahsan in hot pursuit. Terrifying. Ahsan tackled Stephanie to the ground right in front of the police cruiser and started attacking her until the officer forced him back at gunpoint. One of Ahsan's and Stephanie's neighbors told police that Ahsan had been harassing them relentlessly.

He had even broken one of their windows and smeared it with his own feces. Oh, we have entered into a whole new territory now. What the fuck is he doing? Oh my God, that's a full... He is not with us. He is not well. There was also a national warrant out ordering his extradition to Minnesota

for missing a court date. So authorities were supposed to escort him to Minnesota, but instead a judge let him out on a bond and fun fact christine nobody contacted stephanie to warn her that he was coming back to their home christine dude like it's like it's. I don't even know what to I don't even. There's no words, you know. So Assan waltzed through the door, the front door, and Stephanie was sure he would kill her. But thank God he didn't.

Thank God he didn't. But it still seemed like Assan's reign of terror would never end, like he was just getting away with it left and right. Again and again, the women who were reporting him were dismissed and accused of consenting to their abuse and probably getting worse abuse, like you said, as a punishment for reporting him. Yeah. So finally, Ahsan went back to Minnesota, where he stood in court on charges of violating Heather's protective order against him. And he had also been convicted of violating a protective order Bella had against him. Ahsan's attorney argued that Ahsan loved Heather and that she and the other women consented to everything he did. But Bella spoke up and said, nope, wasn't consensual at all. Good. Good girl. Good job.

I mean, that must have been very hard to say in in a setting like that oh my god i'm so proud of her me too the judge ultimately sentenced asan to the maximum penalty for this crime which was only 90 days in jail uh but for tracy this was the first moment of justice she had actually achieved for her daughter so she walked out of the courtroom with her hands raised in celebration but upon asan's release within 90 days, he went right back to his old habits, of course, because they always do. He went to Florida to stay with Holly. Oh, my God.

I know. In September, Holly's friends called the police and sent them to her apartment where Ahan was holding holly captive holly had tried to break up with asan and he choked her until she was unconscious took her phone and held her against her will for 36 hours subjecting her to torture torture this is a feat of genius holly finally used her apple watch to message a friend who called the police i'm so fucking proud of her too i know yeah i know thank god so asan was charged with assault battery and a first degree felony for kidnapping that could

mean up to life in prison but of course, Ahsan and his asshole attorney argued that this was all consensual and was all just part of BDSM. But Holly had spent two months in inpatient psychiatric care recovering from the trauma of this ordeal. And that pretty much showed like this was not consensual, right? Right. Years earlier, Holly really had loved and trusted Ahsan, and she had truly believed that he was innocent of any wrongdoing in Heather's death. And now she says she knows he is capable of very real violence. She said, quote,

I really feel like the only people that know what happened are him and Heather, and obviously Heather can't speak for herself anymore. So ultimately, six women have accused Ahsan of abuse across four states. Four women have filed protective orders against him, and he is violated too. As of the story published in June of this year, so June 2023, covering this extensive case, charges were still pending against Ahsan in Arizona for assault and in Florida for kidnapping. The Minnesota Supreme Court also enacted a 60-day suspension on Ahsan's lawyer's law license in arizona for assault and in florida for kidnapping the minnesota supreme court also enacted a 60-day suspension on asan's lawyer's law license and put her on a two-year probation

for her involvement in having heather lift her protective order against asan after he had already violated it no they should be disbarred disbarred she should be disbarred. So Bella divorced Ahsan, thankfully, and she made plans to go back to school and finish her degree. She and Morgan actually launched a website called What Happened to Heather, where they detail the abuse that Ahsan subjected all of them to. And to women in the BDSM community, this story is basically the stuff of nightmares. And to women in the BDSM community, this story is basically the stuff of nightmares. Like it's a worst possible case scenario that somebody that you feel like is a safe person to be with is violating your trust, violating your safe word. Especially when this is your place to reclaim your sexuality from assault a lot of times. Yes, yes, yes.

I mean, this is supposed to be exactly where you don't have to worry about that. The opposite is what's supposed to be, literally, yes. You're supposed to be recovering, you know, from any trauma. You're supposed to feel like you're in control and in charge of your body. And it's almost like he's utilizing that against them. Think of the violation, not only of trust with a partner, but now any partner ever, first of all. Right. trust with a partner but now any partner ever first right and you have now probably been so traumatized that you have now lost a lot of relationships because you don't want to be in that community anymore so like it must be hard to re-enter that and trust people that you don't know

very well yeah ever i mean that's it's not just a singular violation it takes away a whole community it's yes um and oh my god i imagine it'd be hard to feel safe again in that community just because it's one person and what uh i mean that's the downside i guess to like whatever you know kink culture is or whatever bdsm specifically could be is that there are still manipulative people out there who can take advantage of the fact that a lot of people don't understand it yeah so you can i mean he literally just said oh no that's not bdsm and got away with it like a million literally in hiding in hiding in plain sight you know totally taking this taking advantage of a community and making it about something that's not what it's really for.

And it's very scary that people can hide like that and then get away with it. Just knowing that he can work off of other people's ignorance. Biases. Yes. Yes. Exactly. So, yeah, like I said, this, of course, is the stuff of nightmares to women in the BDSM community or people in general in the BDSM community. But it's also unfortunately nothing new.

Women who survive abuse and who are also open about their sexuality are often dismissed as having consented to that abuse. And that really is a tragic and disturbing reality. Additionally, abuse survivors and victims continue to be blamed for their own suffering. It must just be such a slap in the face and be basically re-traumatizing you, you know, if people don't take you seriously, if you come to someone who's supposed to protect you, whether it's your loved ones the police whoever the amount of times people are saying well you asked for it or you wanted it or well what did you expect or right and then on top of it you've just got the general ignorant people to domestic violence who

are like well why didn't you leave and i mean every level of it you can't you can't just have autonomy or feels like you're just like knocking on a glass wall and people are just like sorry nothing we can do it's yeah it's a scary scary thought well morgan and bella who are now close friends and roommates believe it or not and who both have a son thank god out of their lives launched a non-profit called heather house which assists survivors of domestic violence and i think that's really special that you know they were able to reclaim you know something something special uh and and make make something great out of it um yeah i'm just uh that's the silver lining i suppose

and that's the story that's the end christine that's horrible um I don't know where to go from there. I'll end us here. If you are experiencing any domestic violence or know someone who is, there are places that can help. The National Domestic Violence Hotline is 1-800-799-7233. They also have English, Spanish, and 200-plus interpretation services available. You can also chat with them, and you can send an SMS. You can text START to 88788. And, you know, we love you, and you got this. A general reminder to people, too, that the universal hand signal for I need help or I'm in a I'm in a violent. Domestic violent situation, please help me, whether you're on Zoom or you're in front of people, is to have your palm out.

If you can see the screen on YouTube, but if not, stick your hand out, put your thumb into your palm and then close your fingers over your thumb. And that means help me. So if you ever see someone doing that, please see something, say something. Didn't that happen? Wasn't there someone who did that in a car window and got rescued? I think so, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

window and got i think so yeah yeah yeah so just a reminder that if you see someone close their fingers over their thumb they might be asking for help so yeah it is called the violence at home signal for help yes so it's almost like you're you're getting uh it looks almost like you're getting trapped like you're being held against your will is almost the interpretation um yeah so uh well if if you know we can learn from anything it's it's to educate ourselves more on on bdsm and be there for people and stop asking people why they don't leave when there's things going on um well i don't know how halloween theme that was but it was certainly scary certainly was very frightening yeah of all things but i promise next uh episode will be a halloweeny in theme cool okay cool well uh thank you everyone we're gonna go do our after hours uh i have a a topic is that okay

i i've already prepared a uh a little true crime quiz for you oh christine loves a quiz all right we're gonna go keep hanging out if you want to listen go join patreon and um we'll see you over there and that's why we drink