And That's Why We Drink - E356 Spam Artists and Interplanetary Gossip

Episode Date: December 3, 2023

It's episode 356 and on Wednesdays we get the middle finger by text message! Tune in this week for some prank call talk as well as some creepy stories. First Em brings us a 101 class on mirrors - are they both an entrance and a dead end at the same time? Then Christine covers the heartbreaking and mysterious case of Darlie Routier. And for our next trick... and that's why we drink!Come join us on tour in 2024! Get your tickets at andthatswhywedrink.com/live

Christine shoulders are here just kidding they're clothed everybody I'm just as disappointed as you it's like she is wearing a horrendous possum shirt yeah from you that you bought I did buy it you know I probably fund possums more than anybody else on this you're the biggest advocate Tremendous possum shirt. Yeah, from you. That you bought me. I did buy it. You bought one for me, one for Eva. I probably fund possums more than anybody else on this show. No, you're the biggest advocate for possums, and you don't even know. You don't even admit it. I do it. It's one of those things where it's out of sheer love, because it's certainly not out

of understanding, but it makes you happy. It's sheer love for us, not for the animals. To make you, I don't know, like gross patriarchy, but you makes you happy. Not for the animals. To make you. I don't know. Like gross patriarchy. But, you know, the saying happy wife, happy life. I don't I don't know what the platonic version of that is. But if I keep giving you possum stuff, you're in a pretty good mood, which means I'm happy.

Happy partner. Happy. Howdy, partner. Partner. Happy partner. Howdy, partner. I'm sorry. Right?

Anyway. That's what they say. How was your Thanksgiving, Christine? Oh, God. Hi. It's good. It was fine. It was okay.

It was great. I mean, it was fine. But then Blaze got sick and then Leona got sick and then Blaze is just catatonic in bed and I've been just running around trying not to have a mental breakdown. So, you know. Oh, I got a weird text on Thanksgiving. Wait, I forgot. This is what I was going to tell you.

I even wrote it in my phone. Em? I got a weird. I got a manic energy today. It is. I apologize for that. But I can't change it. No, no.

So. I'll keep it together so you can be the main character. And then we'll swap. Thank you so much. Okay. Here's the text I got. This is not a joke. On Thanksgiving, I receivedgiving i received in the like

in the evening or at nighttime i received a text crap let me find it i even prepared for this to be my why i drink here it is hello i'm walt's great grandson like okay i'm gonna show it to you without because the phone number's in there too I'm Walt's great grandson. Like, OK, I'm going to show it to you without because the phone number's in there, too. And you know how like sometimes you'll get a text from like a spam and it's like, let's ride our bikes together. OK, I don't know. I get weird spam text sometimes. Right. So normally it's like either it's like a green.

This is like an iPhone, like someone's iPhone sent me this, which is unusual. Yeah, and this is... I'll show it to you. I'll try to cover the number so you don't see the number. But it basically says, Hello, I'm Walt's great grandson. Like, what? And you didn't say anything?

I think I said... I think I just like put a question mark on it, and then they never responded. But like usually if I respond to those, the spam ones, they write back like, Wait, what's the number? Can I text them? Sure.

I'll read it to you. Although what if this is like a listener who, what if this is a listener who like, Then why do they have my phone number? Like if they found your phone number then I directly, like that's walking right into a trap,

isn't it? Can you star 67 a text maybe just whatsapp them well no whatsapp whatsapp whatsapp no that doesn't work I don't maybe it will does whatsapp work does it show my number

yeah I guess it does huh Eva can you text this number for us no wait wait wait I have I have a fake email can I text this number for us no wait wait wait I have a fake email can I email a number no I don't know maybe I don't know

I wish I had a fake number do we have that google voice phone number we had a google voice number in February of 2017 so I doubt that it still exists because I don't think we ever use it um okay oh my god eva even texted us one of the things she wanted to discuss as like a business topic is whether we need a business phone number which is hilarious our business phone so i'm like

maybe we do need it just to prank call people order pizzas and also text walt's grandson well obviously okay hang on i'm going on my white pages account also great grandson like what are Prank call people, order pizzas, and also text Walt's grandson. Well, obviously. Okay, hang on. I'm going on my White Pages account. Also, great grandson. Like, what are you talking about? Could it actually be Walt from your original? I don't know.

Now I'm freaked out. But also, could it be, even if it is spam, like, that's a very weird thing to send me, of all people. What's the phone number? Okay. Elevator music when you tell it it's please stand by we have to step away and go get mine answer the door we just must discuss private things easily thank you for searching i'm searching i'm searching uh it's a landline okay so this is already old information from from huntsville or decatur yeah i hate to break you i've already done a i've already done a big search online for the number um and i i couldn't really find anything useful um interesting interesting and i'll type in walt i mean it's probably spam but the weird weird thing is that they used the name Walt.

It's really weird, right? Like, even as spam, it's like, you didn't know what you were doing. This is very specific. Oh, my God. Hang on. Okay, hold on. If it's just, if it's, I'm going to risk it. I'm going to risk it.

I'm going to text them. What are you going to say? I'm Walt's great grandson. Yeah, what do i say what do i say say like say hey is walt available i don't know say i have the all the money from walt's will do you want it and then i'm the executor of walt's will say that okay i'm the what if this really is the great grandson of someone named Walt and we're just like fucking with them?

That would be terrible. Also, by the way, I just wrote I'm the executor and it autocorrected to I'm the executioner. I'm the executioner. Now, if I received that text, I think I would have called the authorities i'm not really sure but i would have been a lot more alarmed i like that's kind of telling like that does if you know i'm the executioner is that what i write do i change it wait all right I'm the executioner. Send. And then I'll do, oops, autocorrect. I'm the executor. Oops.

LOL, autocorrect. Is it an iPhone? Or is it showing a screen? It's an iPhone. No, no, no, it's Android. It's Android. Oh. So maybe they changed, maybe they blocked.

Maybe it's spam. It's probably spam. Oops, autocorrect. I'm the execut blocked. Maybe it's maybe it's probably spam. Oops. Autocorrect. I'm the executor. Is this Walter's family? Oops. Is this Walter's family trying to get a hold of a great grandson? Wow. You're taking your role very seriously as the executioner. Oh, my God. Of his of his descendants. Will? As the executioner. Oh, my God.

Of his descendants. Will? Descendants. That feels more lawyer-y, right? Execution. Oh, no. You already said that. It's like, oh, the Grim Reaper is texting you.

Okay. Anyway. I mean, really, if I had received that text, I'd be a lot more alarmed. But also, this is a spam artist. Is that a word? Right. Scam artist? No. Scam artist.

I mean, they're scam artists. Okay. Well, if this is a spam artist uh tm tm tm then they deserve to be scared a little bit okay so there's one guy who um tried spamming me or a spam artist if that's what we're calling it and i uh pretended i was in the mafia and that he had the wrong guy and he shouldn't be talking to me and now try to spam artists your your grandparents and say they were like you or something that was a long time ago and my grandpa felt did not fall for it and pretended he was the chief of police um you guys have something

now you're the executioner so this is like clearly a family pattern well i told this one guy he said hey i'm something something something i forget what he said but it was very obvious that it was going to turn into a whole thing and i was like i thought i was like i told big tony or something like you got like you owe me money or something like something big tony chakaloli um and now once a week he sends me he has not quit this happened back like during like at least a month ago once a week he now texts me the emoji of him giving me the middle finger oh my god that's how you know that's how you know you've really done it you've won that's our whole relationship because i haven't forgotten you middle finger and that's you know what the worst part is like that's kind of also

our relationship so i feel a little bit like that's that's a little weird that we're so that they're such such similar vibes um i know i know but love you hate you know really close together so uh wow i know so um why do you drink so that's oh because i got that scary text in the middle of the night that said i'm walt's great grandson and i was like uh okay and then i couldn't text you because i was like i have to tell I'm on the podcast. So I've just been living with this internal fear, you know. I mean, yeah, I do actually feel bad if it is Walt's, real Walter's great grandson. Too late now. Whoopsies.

But anyway, OK, well, that's a good reason to drink. That's certainly on brand. Yeah, I figured, right? I figured that's a good reason to drink. That's certainly on brand. Um, yeah, I figured, right. I figured it's at least like, um, it's content. Oh, this is what I wrote. I responded, Walt, who? And then they just never responded, which I'm like, what kind of spam artist sends you a text to say, hey, I'm reaching out. And then you say, okay.

And then they just stop talking to you. It's like, that's. Do you remember the time that we were together do you remember the time we were together and um uh we found out my mom was getting scammed and so we oh my god we translated the the the nigerian and it said like god will curse all of your descendants and we were like oh no but it was it was good though because because uh we found out then you reached out pretending it was my mom and oh that's right and they had my cardinal something yeah yeah yeah and uh anyway we ended up finding out what he texted my mom which was another language and it was i'm cursing your family and we copy and pasted it to your

phone and you sent it back to him and then he sent you the middle finger or something then he sent me the middle finger yes that's right no you're 100 why is that their like final stance the best you can do is a middle finger okay yeah they're like this will get them i'm like em and i send that to each other all the time it's not as harmful as you think it is i feel like it's um like when you find out what other like curse words and other languages are and it's like oh this is supposed to be really offensive and it's probably actually really not all that offensive yeah it's like i learned what puta meant and we were like oh yeah yeah yeah i wonder if they think the middle finger is like the the end all of like the ultimate insult i mean maybe if i was seven

i'd probably be upset but um you know now i just think that's cute um so it really doesn't have the well if this guy he usually sends me middle fingers on wednesday so if he says anything tomorrow i'm just gonna yeah he's really scheduled with it um um wow you guys have like a more consistent friendship than you and i have i know i like are we like i should be surprised i i are you am i being replaced should we should i do a full uh like a ya novel about it where i actually start just like sending him compliments and then we become friends like what happens next fuck yes fuck yes 110 because as long as they're gonna be like when i bring him to dinner when i bring him to dinner they're gonna be like how did you meet and be like he tried to steal my money he tried to rob me and get my credit card information it's like a classic hallmark i saw

something in him but honestly his eyes he was just damaged on the outside on the inside i could save him and i did because i'm the executioner and then the title of card rolls um i execute bad vibes yeah it was all a misunderstanding um yeah anyway he's in a silly goofy mood so he's uh good times i love getting spam skip spam scammed spammed. It's a good time. So anyway, how are you? I don't have really anything as great to follow up with. I just got back last night. I've been gone since...

Are your arms tired? A second. And that's why we drank. Thank you, everybody. Goodbye. Did I lose you? is this thing on did your internet cut out something are you going through a tunnel so weird i'm going through a tunnel uh no i i just came back i've been gone since um like the beginning of november we i it's weird because i came home to me clearly frantically

packing and everything before we our flight took off. And I came home to what I remember being a very clean apartment. And I was actually in the middle of cleaning. And so I came back to like three week old clean laundry, just a big mountain of it on the bed. So it's like I happens not I like I know that I said on the way to the airport, just the way that this apartment looks, I know I said to myself, this is a future M problem, and now I'm future M,

and it is a problem. Oh, I hate being future myself. It's like, come on. Me too. Ugh. It's not fair. Anyway, now I'm in the middle of cleaning up past M's problems. Per usual.

At least it's clean laundry. I mean, mine's all dirty laundry, so. Yeah, but you know what you know my problem is and this is i don't know if this is like um let me count the ways okay i didn't sorry this is specifically is that how that works i don't think so if you anytime you want to just evacuate a conversation from now on i'm going through a tunnel i'll be right back i hit airplane mode oh sorry tunnel i don't know bye sorry i'm i'm standing in front of you but i am on do not disturb so um you'll have to talk to me later uh and then i turn around and look at even i go hey what's up and just totally block you on my delivered quietly it says red it says red um but also i was going through a

tunnel um i don't know if this is exclusively an adhd thing but i when it comes to folding my clothes it really is i know folding clothes is like hard for most people especially if you have some like neurodivergence it's like weirdly the hardest task you can ever do it's the worst and i can't do it and i don't it's the worst the hardest task you can ever do. It's the worst and I can't do it. And I don't do it. It's the worst. But I've caused more problems for myself because I have to hang all of my shirts. So I can't just like throw them into a drawer.

I can't even just fold them and put them in a drawer. You have to hang them? Every single shirt I own is hung. Why? Because we live in an apartment. We don't have enough room and we share a dresser. Yeah, dressers are hard. I just bought two more and I still don't have enough room. And we share a dresser. Yeah, dressers are hard. I just bought two more and I still don't have enough room.

Really? I bought them from an estate sale. So that's my fault. Stop it. Why again? That was going to be why I drink. But then Walt got involved. So I was like, well, fine.

First of all, if you're going to keep up this behavior, Christine. I am. Next. What do they look like how much did they cost what's the backstory behind them are they haunted they're gorge they're gorgeous probably yes it's considering i got texts from walt's great grandson right after i bought them um maybe they're connected probably not um no they're beautiful they're victorian they're from like the late 19 or sorry late 1800s. And they're these gorgeous wooden dressers. And they one was $82 in my bedroom. One was $82 in your bedroom. Yep. Like one's like a small one, right? Then one's just like my normal one. But we don't really have a closet. Like don't have you know i mean we have like the opposite

situation our closet is literally like it's it's very confusing and boring but um yeah we we have to share dressers for like all our sweatshirts and clothes um and so we have yeah and so i bought two new dressers and they're listen they were cheaper than anything on like fucking wayfair but they're beautiful and they're um they're they're, um, they're, they're a few questions. Haunted. Yeah. Oh, and they have little key holes and they came with the keys. Oh, that's fun.

You never get the key to. Yeah. One of them has a secret drawer. That one was worth the money. Yeah. It's hidden behind a panel. Super cool. What are you going gonna put in there

you're my baby my mini secret i don't know why my first thought was it was just like oh something small um yeah what are you gonna put you have to put something in there you can't just like oh yeah but you can't know what it is otherwise then the secret won't come true well i don't like that okay well okay my. Okay. My other questions. Hmm. What are you using each one for? Like, please tell me the secret panel one is for your coziest PJs. Okay. This is not.

This is going to sound like I'm making it up. I'm not. And I was never going to tell anybody this. But I'm going to tell you. Okay. But you won't tell me what's in the secret panel. Okay. No, I'm about to.

But don't. But don't. I'm only telling you. It's just between us. It's just between you and me. So we have a we have a sponsor which i'm sure you received the same gift basket now yep and and what are you about to tell me so today we had uh so once a month we have people come like help clean the house like we have somebody come clean the house and i was like well these our new sponsor sent us this wonderfully amazing gigantic glittery gift basket of sex toys

and lube and all sorts of stuff and i was like whoa so i put it in my bedroom okay and so i like open it there's glitter everywhere but i like open it whatever and they're like all over the place because i'm like whoa okay to be honest also my mom was over and she's like what is this and i was like see i would have just handed the basket to my mother and been like happy birthday but just go i almost did and then she said oh i could have fun with that and i said i'd rather jump off a bridge so i'm not giving this to you um and so then i opened it all up and it was all over the place and then the cleaners are coming and you know i do that classic mom thing where i'm like should i have to clean for the cleaners otherwise i can't vacuum the floor or whatever so i just have all

these like dildos and stuff and i'm like oh, oh, I'll put them in my Victorian dresser. Because it's the only empty dresser. So I jump all in the drawers. And now I'm just afraid that Blake's going to be like, oh, good. So it's your sex drawer. It's now a sex drawer, which was not the plan. And I'm sure it was not the plan of the person in 1875 who built it. You don't know that.

They had vibrators in. But I don't know that. That's exactly right. They could be like be like finally someone living out all my dreams you know yeah it's like oh it's all i ever wanted whatever the 1800s version of like a fleshlight was it could have been yeah yeah no yeah it could be the 1800 oh i don't want to know what they had a hoop and stick and their own version of the flesh i don't want to know like what was involved in the making or cleaning of that product um so anyway that's what i put in the drawer if you must know okay all right okay okay and i'll prove it to you not against that that's fine i should tell explains open the top

drawer see what happens but he's like very sick you know what would be really funny is if you had all your sorry i didn't mean to interrupt you um it'd be really funny if you had all your sex toys out for display and then in your secret panel was actually like just like a very tame book like just like the most boring thing my bible well you know what I'm glad I asked you know everyone wanted to know now everyone got exactly the kind of answer they were hoping for it's like I didn't even like it didn't even occur to me that you would ask what's in it. And then all of a sudden I was like, wait, because I was like, oh, there's nothing in it yet. I just bought them. And then I was like, wait a second.

This morning I literally opened the drawer and went like this and just dumped all of the lube and flavored nipple balm into this drawer. So Allison and I did see the nipple bomb and I went are we gonna use this I literally thought I literally thought it was a gift for my daughter because it came and I was like oh cute it's all pink I open it up and the first thing I pull out is like flavored nipple bomb and I went let's go play with something else um yeah um that well it I really appreciate I do appreciate the sponsor but also like it was such a fun. It was so fun to open. But also I was like, this was very fun to open.

I'm also so vanilla that I was like, this looks like I'm probably I you know, I have some pretty kinky friends. So it sounds like this is about to be a Christmas extravaganza. Oh, that's a great idea. My mom seemed really into it. And I'm sure your mom would be too. So maybe she's going to hear this and wonder what the fuck I'm sending her. Nothing, mom. You can handle that on your own. But my friends on the other hand, they're going to get free product.

Oh, wow. Anyway, I'm so glad I asked that question. I really thought you were just going to say like, oh, I haven't figured it out. But no, I absolutely did not foresee this going this way but here we are it's too late when you want to get rid of it can you leave the picture of the girl and her hat in there oh genius i love her genius i'm fucking doing that in the secret trail that's so smart i apparently i i guess the reason i drink um besides having to do three weekweek-old laundry, is for you. I think congratulations on your secret compartment.

Honestly, thank you. I never really realized how special it was until this very moment when you had me bring it up. So I'm very thrilled. We're all very excited for you. And now I really hope if anybody else has a secret passageway sex cabinet it's a dungeon oh you're you just have a very tiny one currently it's a dungeon it's two inches tall yeah it it can grow all right okay you know what it's grow or not a shower you know what i mean yes yes yes yes yes okay um okay let's get into this because otherwise i, I feel bad for everybody who wanted a short

episode and like, not that my story's particularly long or anything, but I just haven't seen you in so long. And we could talk about sex. Sex toys all day. Sex compartments for quite some time. Okay. so okay my um i have a a 101 101 situation for you today christine oh okay and i kind of i'm digging the 101s because i feel like it leaves a lot of room for banter which we're clearly incapable of so um this this will give us a prompt since we need to practice yeah um and i i thought about this topic

because i feel like it's not inherently this like scary thing or a creepy paranormal thing but um you know i think it's i think it's cool and i've wanted to know so now everyone else is gonna know so this is a 101 class on mirrors oh fuck yes and people might be like what why well no because i've always heard one of the things i did while i was um at thanksgiving every year i end up cleaning my cousin's room with her and it becomes like a good like 2 a.m hangout where we like watch tv and we both have adhd and so we really thrive under like parallel play to like i can't do self-care tasks she can't do self-care tasks so we just do them together talking about sex toys parallel my cousin please whoa i mean listen you said parallel play and i went what the fuck no for anyone wondering um parallel play is in uh an adhd method of uh being productive

where you really thrive with a second person there to do the same work as you and it encourages you to get stuff done so like i and it doesn't have to mean you're both doing the same work but just have somebody there to kill the time with you is a huge help so like i would rather you sit on the bed and like hang out with me and gossip while we're folding clothes and then before i realize it all the clothes are hung versus you're just kind of doing it okay that makes total sense um same thing with like studying a lot of people will like need a second person to like sit and do their their computer work with you so that way you get your work done so i get that anyway yeah we we both thrive with that um and she really needed her room cleaned and it's become this

thing where every year i show up and i'm weird but my version of relaxing is like decluttering and like seeing like a big task that where you see an accomplishment by the end of before and after so it works out well because she needs her room cleaned i want to clean her room and we just hang out all night and watch tv and gossip and shit and um i was cleaning her room we found this mirror and i was like oh maybe i should put it in her closet but then i was like i don't know but then if it faces the bed isn't that supposed to be bad luck and then it kind of got me into this whole you know mirror mirror mirror, mirror, mirror thing. So I thought, why not talk about it here? I'm so excited. Mirrors scare me. But I love them also.

They see, okay, I wanted to ask what your opinion is on mirrors. Are you all about the superstitions and the... Yes, a little bit. I think that there is a chance that they can open you to, I think just by their nature, they can be, it sounds maybe crazy, but i think they can be portals they do seem like and they give me the same kind of creeps as like um it's like an equivalent to a doorway like uh like a physical doorway of like oh just it goes into another space

yeah yeah it's like both uh an entrance and a dead end at the same time which feels odd that's deep thank you and for my next trick oh by the way that's my new thing um i don't know i don't know why but i've been realizing i actually really like it compared to your usual things that you bring to the table this one i'm actually kind of into i i don't know why i don't know where i learned from. I don't know if it just came out of my own head. But anytime I'm shifting gears now, I just go into my next trick. I really, really actually like it a lot. So for once, I approve. Do you have a bit that you do? I know we're smiling a little bit, but do you have a bit? All the time, but I can't think of, I'll probably do it in the next five minutes and you'll be like, that's the one.

It's very annoying, but I cannot even think about it. General derangement is your bit? What? Me? No. You'll probably hear it by the end of the episode. Probably every listener is like, yeah, it's X, Y, and Z, and we just don't even notice. Probably so.

I know with Allison, I have a bit where every time i impulse purchase something when she's asleep when she wakes up i go i've done the unthinkable and that's it's a personal favorite because i do the unthinkable just about every night so the unthinkable you'd never imagine and i act like it's a real crisis i'm like allison of course i've done the unthinkable this time it's it really is an 80th blanket so oh actually that's pretty bad okay anyway for my next act here is mirror 101 um i wanted to start with a fun fact because obviously uh according to the national library of, which I love that they're taking advantage of mirror history.

Good. Good. Cool. The oldest evidence of human made mirrors. You want to take a stab at how many years ago the first mirror was? Was it in Mesopotamia? We do talk, you know, it was, we do talk about Egypt for a second, but this was in

Anatolia, which is now Turkey. Turkey, yeah. And I feel like I've brought up that same area quite a few times in my stories. Probably. It's very much like a home of a lot of

inventions. Humanity, yeah. Just mirrors and ghosts. it's very much like a like a like a home of of a lot of i don't know inventions humanity yeah so uh they the first uh or the the oldest number we can find is roughly around 8 000 years ago was the first man-made mirror um i i don't know if you like me putting you on the spot like this but i'm gonna try it again i love it do you know what the first mirrors were made out of i feel like i've googled this before um opal seashell you're very you're close it's obsidian oh okay yeah obsidian mirror i've heard of that sure sure sure which um obsidian which i did not know this maybe this is very obvious to everybody else but obsidian is made out of volcanic glass i did not know that yeah it's like dark dark dark shiny i knew it was dark but i

honestly i know nothing about rock science of like oh why is this one this color versus this color i i fucking know nothing about that rock science or was it geology i i really just no no it's rock science oh okay um but yeah i i knew it was dark but i didn't know what how it got that way but it is because when lava cools i guess if it cools at a certain rate eventually crystals form but if it cools so fast that no crystals form you get obsidian oh then it's okay that's cool i did not know that so it's very fast cooling lava and obsidian is a rock that is very fragile and it fragments easily which makes it very easy to shape which is why it was used a lot in older times to build things out of or to carve things out of. So it was used a lot and with a lot of indigenous groups to create arrowheads or weapons in some way, because you can take one rock, hit obsidian rock, and it will carve things away or carve things out of it. Right. Makes sense.

Same concept with mirrors. They would take the glossier layers of obsidian and stack them on top of each other okay and i think they were like very very very like this is something that's not was not accessible to anybody but like the elite people near lava well i mean like the product of like an actual mirror was not just like a well i mean like the product of like an actual mirror was not just like a generic like item for families back then yeah i yes it becomes a very expensive item it's was originally obsidian and then about three thousand years ago so the first five thousand years obsidian things are slow going for mirrors for the first 5 000 years you guys slow start you know here's the thing about mirrors they are all about that long con they are here they said i've got time

and we're gonna we play the long game just wait it out yeah just wait it out just wait it out they go and for my final act and then you just have to wait and wait and wait. Yeah. I know. So about 3,000 years ago, mirrors are now appearing in Egypt, like you just said, Mesopotamia, like you just said, and China. Those are the... You weirdly know... Good for me. I said two old places. Well, hey, you know, if it were a random trivia question, you would have nailed it by guessing. That's exactly right.

And don't you forget it many mirrors made in pre-colonial mesoamerica are uh even by today's standards called incredibly intricate art and marvels of painstaking craftsmanship wow um there were mirrors even uh in ancient greece that after obsidian, they were made in Greece from very thin layers of incredibly polished metal, usually copper. You just polish, polish, polish, and then keep putting thin layers on top of each other until it's essentially a full reflection. In ancient China, it was the same concept, but instead of copper, they used bronze. china it was uh the same concept but instead of copper they used bronze so wow i like to think if i were on um antique roadshow if i saw now like a really reflective bronze i would be like obviously ancient china like i would look like such obviously this is i'd be like is this that'd be like this ancient china and they're like that's not bronze dumbass i'd be like maybe if it were bronze idiot like idiot who brings up who brings up

a obsidian mirror to antique roadshow idiot i feel like i'd be like this is literally like 8 000 years old it's crazy fragile um i feel like this is the least sensible sensical episode we've ever done like i don't even know what we're talking about anymore but i i just keep speaking i'm like what am i i don't even know what i'm saying ever at all anyway christine i missed you so much i feel like i don't know how to speak to people anymore after the holiday no no no no no um people have said that they like the the episodes where it sounds like we're on a phone call. This is it. If you want to know what a phone call sounds like, it's not good.

It's like it doesn't make any sense. A five minute conversation. Don't know her. It's always been at least three hours long. Okay. Here we go. So there's just reflective, polished reflective metals was the main thing at the time centuries later mirrors start being made of glass and i don't know enough about this again this is

101 not like 401 but i wonder why they didn't think of glass before like did anyone even suggest it and then at the meeting they were like that's fucking crazy let's stick with what we know stupid um i just feel like there was not that accessibility to glass like you had access to like if you lived by volcanic rock or volcanic formations you could probably access obsidian but i feel like glass don't you need to like make make it out of sand and all this i don't know i wonder this again about to show my true nature which is stupid but like at an ocean like like sea glass is that not sea glass is when um when like bottles and stuff break in and then they get and then they become sea glass they kind of turn into little they look like little stones but it's like from i'm pretty sure it's like from an actual like a

bottle of heineken or something oh so it's like am i wrong glass because i thought so should we google it let's learn together hang on no let's just pretend we know it what is sea glass i've already typed in the question i'm on wikipedia for sea glass are naturally weathered pieces of glass with which often have the appearance of tumbled stone sea glasses physically and chemically weathered glass oh okay you're right it's chemically weathered glass found on glass like from actual man-made glass that gets turned into kind of it like tumbles like a rock tumbler and becomes like pretty little rocks tricked this whole time i just thought i was like what part of the ocean is making pretty sea glass like this but i thought sand is how you make glass am i wrong well that would make sense because you

put you put like a dirt sand mixture and like rock tumblers to polish right right oh yes you do okay silica sand heating quartz sand or silica sand yeah so i feel like it wasn't something you could necessarily like really make unless you had the right all techniques all of a sudden i mean all of a sudden i have no idea how glass is made and i'm like actually you need to well we all know you need to heat it to temperatures above 3090 degrees fahrenheit and i guess if you have a volcano that's pretty damn hot right so it sure is how hot is a volcano wait while you do that i'm gonna look up what the hottest volcano ever was hottest volcano ever

oh my god it's not hot enough. You can't make glass out of a volcano because it only goes up to 2,190 degrees. And as we all know, glass needs to be made at least 3,090 degrees. Okay, wait, how hot is blue lava? There's blue lava? I think that's a mountain dew flavor. Okay, actual lava is red orange truly blue lava i guess is that because like when like fire gets too hot it becomes like a little blue on top is that what i'm guessing

because that's not on wikipedia so it's not helping me but truly blue lava would require temperatures of at least almost 11 000 degrees okay whoa which is how hot it feels in my apartment when allison turns the temperature to 74 by the way and that's why you have to buy 80 blankets in the middle of the night yeah you said it on me allison are you listening uh which is much higher than any lava can naturally achieve on the surface of the earth okay so blue lava can't exist. I didn't even know that and I knew that at the same time. You're like, that's kind of what I thought at the beginning, but we went on a weird journey to get back to what I already thought.

I knew I had never heard of blue lava because it didn't exist. And now I've been told it doesn't exist. It does exist in Indonesia on the island of java sulfur okay is there a lava specialist who listens to this show can you fucking tell us what's even if you're a magma specialist we'll accept that as well um if you dabble in the earth's crust that'd be great. Okay. Do you, let's see if there was, if you could make lava, any color, obviously it would be one, one, two, three, purple.

What? Oh, I forgot what we were talking about. But then red and blue, you couldn't make purple because the red and blue you could make purple because red and blue that's so true okay maybe green then because it's extra special because it's like it looks like ectoplasm i think never been done before right right never been done or pink because she's one of the girls pink would be cute i like pink okay theme volcano you know lava would be a great baby name so would magma but you gotta be careful because magma

is like so probably gonna become a douche there's no nerd named magma there's no one named magma obviously we know you can't be a nerd named magma there's no one named magma obviously we know you can't be a nerd named magma so that's off the table but like you know like lava she'd go through a phase where she's like call me love like la la yeah and it's like just because your name doesn't have a nickname you can't just make one up sorry um lava is such a like a i feel like that's like a san diego like a beach surfer lava my name is she for sure has vocal fry

there's no way oh def defo she doesn't go my name's lava she's lava she couldn't like you even if she could she would figure out how to not we'd know in case anyone's wondering because i also had to think it like i did take my medication today so i don't know what's happening but i do feel like i did too i actually took it like right on time also so i don't know i don't know what's happening but i'm loving the situation happening chemically inside of my head i think maybe i am too here's a fact that you've already said um centuries later mirrors were made of glass that's how we got here by the way um oh right and because of this oh i should have finished my own fucking sentence mirrors were expensive symbols of the wealthy elite because glass was so hard to access i literally okay i mean yes that's kind of yes

that's what we all landed upon um and then talked around for 25 minutes but yes okay great so by the way make glass there is no blue lava let's be clear okay well you know what magma experts weigh in okay because i feel like i'm right and m's wrong i feel like okay anyway so um mirrors eventually become even more commonplace uh only after trade routes open up that i'll have mirror markets which to me is a mirror maze that i can't imagine anything else carnival yeah mirror market that's kind of cool though that's fun like if you don't have access to mirrors and you go through a mirror mark and you're like holy shit i see me everywhere like that would be really trippy everywhere it would be like like when um like jack jack and the incredibles all of a sudden is there's like 10 of

him but it's the first time i've ever seen that it's like the spider-man meme when they're everyone's pointing at each other oh oh you you you yeah imagine if you went on a first date with someone to the mirror market and now they don't know which one's you that would be and they just run into walls they just run into mirrors because they're trying to find you they just run into obsidian over and over again oh classic classic first date mishap so uh trade routes open up so mirror markets are become a thing and on top of that um mirrors become more uh like a want because they the wealthy have them so all of a sudden there's demand for them but the modern mirror itself the one that we know was not popular until the 13th century in venice italy that's the beginning oh okay the process was created by layering clear non-colored flat sheets of glass

over a combination of metals like mercury and gold which oh my god gold is in a mirror not like you know you have the glass and then it kind of looks like all spotty i feel like that they would put like metals behind the glass to make it like reflect back at you and it looks all kind of weathered and like i don't know i just thought of like of all the things that go into a mirror gold was not on my list mercury also was not on my fucking list that like can't be i know about the mercury yeah no certainly not is it it's not still in mirrors no no it can't be i don't think so it can't be i mean and not not in an unsafe level at least i was gonna say so what if like a mirror

shattered like now you have mercury poisoning? Like what happens? I don't think so. I'm obviously not a scientist. All I know is I've been told not to ever. I just know I'm not supposed to touch mercury. I feel like it'd be weird to bring it home. And then what if everything shattered and now there's mercury all over the floor? I mean, that's literally what's in a thermometer. So don't break it and eat it.

You know, that's literally what's in a thermometer. So don't break it and eat it. You know, that's a good point. OK, these Venetian glass mirrors, because they were the first of their kind and they were made out of things like mercury and gold. These Venetian glass mirrors cost a fortune and were incredibly popular among the upper class. And I like to imagine that there is a mirror somewhere that sat in a room with a celery vase and they both just symbolized wealth. You got to believe it. You got. Well, I do. Also, I found a celery vase at my aunt's house and she didn't even know what it was.

Did you know that? No. Oh, my God. That's kind of fun to be like the bearer of such great news. I literally felt like I mean, as I'm here, confused about everything I've said so far. I was, I felt like such a history buff because I was cleaning out part of her kitchen and I was like, oh my gosh, look at this vase.

And I was like, did you know that this is a celery vase? And she was like, I didn't even know that was a thing. And then I got to do the whole history of the celery. That's so special. Did you put it in the closet with the mirror so you could actually say that a mirror and a celery vase were in the same room because that you could have really like your your own prediction could have come true that's actually i should have could have woulda unfortunately next time but um anyway so just like the celery vase uh mirrors are seen as upper class and they became so popular and so um again they were

still really hard to make and they only came from venice so uh they were incredibly hard to get because that they were very expensive and i guess there was some sort of kerfuffle that you know if i knew better how to do like newspaper research, I would have looked into it. But people were so desperate for mirrors that they had to write laws about who could and couldn't own mirrors. Surprise. It was the poor people. The poor people. Wow.

But they also had to write laws for mirror. I'm just calling them mirror artisans because i don't know what the right word would be mirrorists um if you were a venetian mirror maker they wrote laws that you could never leave venice ever because they were afraid that you would share the secrets on how to make a mirror elsewhere oh my gosh that's horrifying so all of a sudden it'd be like well then i quit and now they're even harder to make because there's less people making them you know you probably aren't allowed to quit yeah at that point like are you just did you get trapped into a career forever probably so as usual, limiting mirrors that way made the wealthy elite only want them more and made other people also want them more, but they didn't even have access to it. So go capitalism.

In the 19th century, a method to quickly make mirrors finally came out of Germany. So does that mean that from the 13th century to the 19th century, Venice was like the standard for a mirror? The hot spot. Probably. Imagine if like right at the beginning of the 19th century, you finally get a Venetian mirror and then this new method comes out and it's like. The Germans are like like i ruined it so there's this method uh comes out of germany and it's essentially coating glass with a thin layer of silver which i guess was more accessible and it was cheaper and the glass maybe i think was thicker and so the whole process was just more efficient it was easier to make

um it really wasn't that big of a secret and i like how the germans were kind of like what like it's hard like we just let everyone have this pretty pretty classic they're like engineering what like it's hard and i'm like yes it's very hard and i don't know how to do math but thanks why have we let why have we let italy have this monopoly for 600 years on something that's so easy to make just swoop on in so they now have mirrors which are much more like the standard mirror and they became household staples especially through europe first and the clear glass technique spread globally so uh since then we've had mirrors and since then people have uh been coming up with beliefs about their power. And I mean, think about never having seen a mirror.

I guess you've seen your reflection maybe in like water or something. Well, I think about that a lot. Yeah, I think about that a lot, a lot, a lot. I don't know why, but it has always kind of bothered me. Like, what if you went back in time and you just never had like you just wouldn't like. Like, what if you went back in time and you just never had like you just wouldn't like, yeah, looking in water or like a still pond or a bowl of water? I don't know. Like, that's the only way. It feels like the best you had was like, yeah, still pond. Because other than that, if there were no mirrors or cameras, your best bet was being able to afford maybe once or twice in your life is someone painting a picture of you. And like, right.

I hope that they're good enough that you. Yeah. And if they fuck up there, they're just gonna be like, no, that is where your ear is. You just don't know because you can't. No, you do have a constant boogie under your little nose. Yeah. That smudge is not a mistake. When I sneezed, it's actually part of your face.

You just can't see it. Truly imagine, though, like paying for an oil painting when you're like 30 and finding out that you have. You're hot as hell. But imagine finding out you're like a total uggo, you know? Yeah. Well, then honestly, probably for the best that you didn't know so that you lived with the confidence you know there had to be like you know how like you know time always is constantly evolving or a language is constantly evolving with time there had to be like some you know subtle phrase back then to be like i hope they don't get a painting of themselves you know like something of like oh yeah they're not paint

paint worthy yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah i like like your friend takes you out to dinner and they're like i'm gonna get a portrait of myself and everyone goes oh um we knew this day would come who's gonna tell her but yeah like i mean i can't even imagine because we've seen our own reflection before we even understand the concept of mirror. I mean, we're so small. I mean, it's part of like it's part of infant learning, like to look in a mirror and learn and understand. Like that's part of learning nowadays.

It's crazy to think there was a time when like most people never looked in a mirror. Never. And so for there to all of a sudden be a creation that is easy to purchase easy to create it can be done anywhere and it's like relatively cheap compared to the last several centuries well i mean this is the moment that people are game changer i have to imagine if tiktok was a thing back then there'd be a trend where people were seeing themselves for the fucking first time like even though they had tiktok so they could really just film themselves but they didn't think of that i know wait for me if there was a way to spread trends i feel like that would be like right here's a moment or like yeah if anyone has ever found like a postcard or

a letter from them being like we saw ourselves for the first time that would blow my damn mind that'd be so cool don't send it to m because em throws old things in the trash throw it send it to me and i'll keep it forever that i would keep like to see that like someone is discovering something that's so normalized today that's so cool i'm glad that you think this because i think about this all the time with the mirrors like i've spent a lot of my life thinking about like what what would it have been like to never look in a mirror which it makes me sound vain i don't mean it in a vain way i just mean like as like a self-identity way um so i'm glad that i totally had the thought yeah and also well okay i know we're spiraling i'm so sorry imagine like a like a what the beauty standard must have been then like you couldn't even really fix yourself if you didn't know what you looked like

you know like if you were they didn't have like walgreen swart remover you know it's like well shit yeah oh well anyway so ever since you're yourself you know what i mean no one has a quote that on reddit did anyone else here thank you thank you i can't wait to get canceled over it but um but yeah if people are saying like oh you have to have this type of cheekbone and you're like well what the fuck do i i don't know like i don't know you gotta tell me um yeah anyway so people started having you know all sorts of thoughts on mirrors and if they i mean it was such a powerful invention that there was power behind it already it probably probably felt magical almost. Yes. I know this is like a stupid comparison, but I've said it before. The first time I ever tried VR, I like cried.

I couldn't understand. I like my brain. No human brain was ever meant to see that. It feels like you've like elevated to like a next level of humanity almost. You're like, what? The possibilities are endless. I imagine. And even I've said this too when i did ancestry and i figured out like what one of my relatives names was and all i ever wanted to know was anything

about him i figured out his name i started crying i imagine the first time you fucking see yourself and not and like it's like an identity thing not even a weird morphed like like you're not seeing yourself off of some weird polished copper like you're seeing your whole ass body for the first time or like and think like even you know what it must see your family you can all see your family okay i was about to say think about like looking yourself and saying holy shit i look like my dad who passed or like oh my god i have my mom's eyes you know like i feel like things like that that you wouldn't even necessarily know how to recognize yeah or to have a mirror in a room where like that was like in a common room and you and all of your kids could like stand next to each other you could look at your just

wonder they're haunted i'm like you got a mirror from like 1850 and put it in your house and like you you see a family in it it's probably because they just stood there and stared at themselves all day and it's an imprint i don't know i feel like no wonder they're fucking haunted it also makes me like not very surprised that so many artists have like portraits of themselves that they did by looking in a mirror it's like well fair point it's like i want to remember this when i don't have a mirror nearby like you know or like i can i trust myself as an artist to do the best representation of what i look like so let me do it before someone else does it. I want people to know how hot I am and where my ear goes.

And I'm also Van Gogh. Exactly. So many cultures had a bunch of different beliefs come out of the invention of mirrors. And you talked already about some older places. So we'll start there. about some older places. So we'll start there. And many Mesoamerican cultures,

mirrors especially had powers in religious ceremonies and practices. And I don't know if that kind of started the trickle down effect of like, oh, these are portals to another space. But I think maybe it just blew their minds in general that they were like, this has to be a creation from not man like something yeah it feels like elevated yeah yeah and so uh they thought that there was a lot of power in them in ceremonies and in a lot of ancient Mayan um or Maya ritual

and burial sites there are mirrors that are often recovered in um like archaeological finds there's always mirrors because they were involved so much some mesoamerican cultures actually also thought that mirrors connected you to the other world so they started using mirrors when it came to scrying and divination although it was used more for viewing than like future casting it wasn't um like a mirror i feel like that's tricky so i just wanted to say that like i guess a mirror and a crystal ball are different things or are thought of as different things a lot of times i feel like like in broad broad strokes a lot of people think oh a crystal balls you can see the future which if you listen to our rituals episode on crystal balls you find

out very quickly that it's just kind of actually a mind trick to get yourself not really in a trance, but it's really a form of meditation and lets you think clearly. And it almost is a trance. I mean, some sort of a trance, but yeah, like a like a meditative state. Yeah. Yeah. It's almost like like listening to sleep sounds or something is how I equate it. It's like it's just kind of helping your mind empty and focus on one thing. And right. But glass in general and mirrors in general were used for viewing or I guess something on the same level versus, oh, I'm going to, I can have premonitions now. Right. Okay. Mirrors were therefore associated with powerful figures. A lot of shamans were associated with mirrors.

And then there was an Aztec deity named Tescalipoca, which means smoking mirror. And it was often depicted. He was often depicted holding an obsidian mirror. So cool. I love when they've got a deity who has like a little accessory like if you were gonna make a barbie doll of this deity oh yeah where's his mirror so um actually i don't even know if it's a guy i don't even know if it's a guy um what anyway um uh it's nice to know that if they made an action figure out of you you'd be holding Tezcatlipoca. Anyway.

It's nice to know that if they made an action figure out of you, you'd be holding an old dirty lemon and maybe your social security card after you found it on the floor. No, you'd be holding it. You'd be behind me like, wait, you dropped this. You'd be holding all my belongings. What a fuck you that my accessory would be your things. I know, that's the best part. And I'm just like free freewheeling around you'd actually have no accessories because you drop everything yeah i wouldn't be able to keep on keep your hands would just be free just and you'd have a confused look like where is it

you know i'd be like but i don't really care because someone will find it for me actually you're doing this you're going ah whatever it's fine in these belief systems it's um but the ones that i've already talked about it's mainly the mirrors themselves that are portals and doors but the like paranormal element or the like creepy element it's not focused on the reflection in the mirror it's that the mirror itself is a standalone powerful entity but there are but there are other beliefs that focus more on the reflection um a lot of mirror symbolism in history has for very obvious reasons uh been associated with vanity even in latin the word mirror is uh mirari which means to admire and sure okay and mirrors are also associated um in ancient greece with the cautionary tale of narcissus narcissus um do you know this story

yes where he stared at himself in a pond and was so yeah so he's a man who was so he was yeah he was so beautiful that he was beloved by all and one day he saw his own reflection in the water and fell in love with himself and ended up dying longing for himself but could never have him um and then so there's that's again its own cautionary tale about. Don't let yourself get obsessed with your looks. In some Christian narratives, there's also an inherent danger in your reflection because by seeing or appreciating your own reflection, they are considered graven images or a carved idol used as an object of worship. Right, like you're idolizing yourself over. Yes. Yeah. Especially like so there's amish communities and and again broad strokes

here but in amish communities it's generally believed that the likeness of yourself to show it at all is a sin and so to avoid vanity that's why a lot of amish people avoid being photographed and even their own like baby dolls don't have faces on them which cannot be an eerier sight when you first see it um yeah the reason the reason for it i've i i have seen amish dolls and i did not know the reason just yet and i was like that doesn't look finished i was like that's the creepiest thing i've ever seen it's like but now erase their face but yes but it but it is. Yeah. It's, it's intentional because their belief system is to avoid reflecting human likeness because they don't want you obsessing over looks or,

you know, anything like that because it's distracting you from a bigger picture. Today, most Amish people seem to believe that the mirrors don't actually capture, you know, your reflection isn't a graven image but they do still a lot of times avoid being photographed yeah um and i just want to put it out there because i always thought this as well and it was just pure ignorance the soul thing

yes i had no i didn't know i just heard it and i just kind of moved on with life growing up in ohio we would visit amish country a lot and that was definitely one of those ignorant stupid rumors we would always spread like i always thought it was real can't take a photo because i think that your souls there's yeah that's it's yeah it's kind of yes so let me let me state it for everybody else it is an urban legend that uh amish people believe that getting a photo of themselves or looking into a mirror will trap their soul inside of the picture or the mirror and it will prevent them from going to heaven um not true i thought it was true but that was also because i didn't have an amish person to like ignorantly ask a question about

yeah um but the the reality is that they don't think their soul is going to be trapped in there they're just trying to avoid vanity for their religious beliefs right um so that being said i have heard a tour guide say some pretty um ignorant things i don't know if that's to like bolt like boost up the tour or something but it gets spread very easily so if you hear it just it's not true like grain of salt or grain of sand grain of court sand oh oh oh grain of sand shard of sea glass i mean what else what do you say you tell me what do you say i don't know all of this is I don't know. All of this is improv. I have no idea. None of this is anything. Every conversation we've ever had was improv, for sure.

Because unless it's written down on this fucking Microsoft Word document, I don't know what's going on. Okay. So, yes, not a real Amish belief, but they do believe that any likeness could be dangerous. So. Okay. amish belief but they do believe that any likeness could be dangerous um so okay uh there are european traditions out there called poppets i guess pop it pop it pop it pop it um they're essentially powerful dolls that represent a person in rituals so oh cool in this sense a doll is a reflection of you so uh because it's a reflection of you whatever harm happens to it can be done to you. It's what has become stereotypically known as a voodoo doll.

I see. Okay. Which apparently this was falsely attributed with voodoo. I did not know that. But during the American occupation of Haiti, a lot of Haitian practices were vilified. But, you know, this also this existed in other cultures so right okay you know many people think that once a person dies this is also something I heard growing up um not in my own home but enough that it didn't seem weird to me it felt like it was like kind of normalized is uh once a person dies mirrors in the house should be

covered or the wandering soul could get trapped inside no yeah i've heard that as well i feel like this is a stereotype that i i don't fully believe but i do weirdly respect uh like i'm you know i respect all beliefs but yeah i just wouldn put that out there. But this is one that like it doesn't sound as odd to me. This one feels more at home. I feel like we've seen that like when we went to, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, Winchester, where she was in mourning and would cover the mirrors. Like I feel like that was something we've seen like historically. Yeah. It's I.

Yeah. So I wonder if it's like criticize someone's like grief tactic, you know, so that's i yeah and it's also hard to like criticize someone's like grief tactic you know so that's gotta be it you know it's like well if that's what you believe or feel if your version like well if your version of grieving is putting a blanket on a mirror like girl do whatever you gotta do like yeah for real um also i feel like maybe it feels more normalized in my head because i did always grow up hearing like oh you know mirrors or portals to the other side so with that in mind it's like oh well if the soul goes to the portal on the other side they might you can like make that connection yeah yeah i feel like there's like some irrational rationale you know yeah um in more intense

logic there yes yeah yeah you got to take a couple leaps but not as many as others yeah yeah sure you tell me more intense forms of this belief of you know mirrors having to be covered there are other groups people who think that all reflective surfaces must be covered when someone dies all the way down to glasses of water oh wow okay because even that could trap the spirit which that that goes a little further than what i would comfortably kind of believe on my own but the thought alone is still like a if it's a what if and it's real like how scary like can you imagine your whole fucking life you have this big great life and they get trapped in a fucking dasani bottle i'd be like oh my god are you kidding me oh i hate dasani oh it would be

terrible i'd be so bummed out at least make it you know at least make a pull in spring or something oh god i mean again not to like fucking joke about people's beliefs, but, like, you're right. I know, I know. If that is a belief, like, that's very scary. That's very scary. Very scary. Or, like, I mean, it's one of those things where you, I at least, because I didn't grow up with that kind of, you know, understanding of things. But it makes you really wonder, like, what is reflective that's around you right now and you're not paying attention to?

And it's like, oh, I have to cover up my Captain America shield. Are you kidding me? Oh, no. That'd be the one thing I'd want to see if I was dead. I'd be like, I know. One last. Yeah. Put me in there.

And also it makes you wonder, like, what's the on a spectrum of reflection? Like at what point? Like if it's shiny at all, it's covered. Is that what it is? Or like, does your like watch count you know like your watch is it shiny the windows like my tv when it's turned off does that mean i have to watch tv all day just to get through it oh gosh okay fine i guess yeah it's hard life um so anyway i would like to sit with more of an expert on that and be like what what's the situation

so um many people believe that when a person dies, you cover everything up. Depending on the culture, this can also be seen as not just protecting the soul, but like you said, just being respectful and creating a non-distracting environment for people in mourning. So good on you for realizing that. Thank you so much. realizing that thank you so much there's a chinese funeral tradition where anyone who sees the reflection of the casket will suffer even more grief and could even bring on another death which that terrifies me but i guess no no no my thought is like because we're already all focusing on one spirit that any reflection is a portal for others to come through or you know sure that you're like just extenuating the the death so i wonder if that means like do caskets in china

or in in these areas at least i wonder are they like sanded down so there's no gloss on them just in case like i i don't know it'd be a cultural difference oh wait i think they mean i think they mean like to see the casket in a reflection of something else right oh maybe like to see the casket reflected in the reflection of the casket you're right i thought it was like if they see oh gosh the casket is like then don't you just not make it shiny yeah easy solution i was like i can fix that one okay good job um some lore says that your soul travels while you sleep which we've talked about this a lot so it's also best to avoid sleeping with a mirror facing your bed or to even have a glass of water beside you because the glass could be a reflection

which i always thought of it yeah well that just not the silver part. Maybe cover that up. Oh, OK. I feel like with a mirror facing your bed, I always took it an even darker route of like, oh, it's an open portal and like demons are going to come out at night. And maybe that's like, yeah, that's the and I've found it very fascinating ever since I was little. And I feel like I, for some reason, have a very like natural inclination to understand it. And I follow a few TikTokers who do like traditional feng shui and like explain it. And I just find it so fascinating. And for some reason, like the mirror thing, I just from day one, I was like, yeah, no, you can't put a mirror. I don't really know why. It's just in my head. I like, yeah, no, you can't put a mirror. I don't really know why. It's just in my head. I'm like, that doesn't you can't put a mirror by your bed.

It's just bad energy. I don't know. I don't know if it's because the portal thing, if it's a reflection, if it just looks weird. I have a mirror facing my bed and I've never gotten any weird vibes from it. I wonder if it's because it's so far away or I don't, I mean, I don't know. It's probably just more like if it,

if it's something that like bothers you, you know, I mean, I think if you don't feel weird about it, then I also wonder though, if there's a science to it, like, is it just like an uncanny Valley thing of seeing yourself at night in the

dark? And like, like could the, could you moving and from the corner of your eye it feels like a shadow walked by like i wonder if like you're setting yourself up for like fear a jump scare yeah yeah yeah maybe even if your soul doesn't wander which is we kind of just touched on this but even if your soul doesn't wander away and that be the reason you keep a mirror away from your bed but spirits who watch you through

the open portal they can reach out and find you so that's mainly the fear that they know when you're sleeping that's not good they know when you're awake they know if you've been bad or good bad or good so be good for goodness sake or they'll get you um all sorts of villains villains did i write that all sorts of i did write villains also every villain is lemons is that what you wrote um because you could probably i think what i i think what i meant was demons and i was just tired writing the notes. Villains! Also sorts of demons or dark spirits or whatever are supposed to live in mirrors.

I guess villains do. If you're writing the next Incredibles movie, by the way, this is your moment to make a mirror monster. Go for it. Since all villains apparently live in mirrors. And again, because it's a portal between two worlds, just as our soul can go to them at night, they can come to us at night.

So in Ireland, this is one superstition that if you look in a mirror at night, you can see a fairy, which is apparently very bad luck. You can also see demons or you could have bad visions of your own health. Yikes. Oh, no. bad visions of your own health. Yikes. Oh no. Eventually I imagine stories like this over time of don't look in a mirror because of our personal belief.

Oh, don't look in a mirror because of our personal belief. All of them kind of, you know, circled through the world and we get creepy, scary games like bloody Mary. Yeah. Which we covered in episode 90 and it involves going into a bathroom in the dark,

facing the mirror and chanting Mary's name. Sometimes, apparently, based on where you live, you have to chant Mary's name 47 times. What? Can you imagine accidentally doing it 48 times and now you have to start all over? Bullshit. Can you imagine saying Bloody Mary 46 times

and then accidentally saying Muddy Blary and being like shit. Now I have to start over. You know if you're doing it with like your little sister or something and she fucks up you. God damn it. You ruin everything. Do you know that I remember

recording the Bloody Mary episode because i was so freaked out i remember where i was sitting it was my old house in los angeles and we were both sitting there and i was i kept looking over my shoulder talk about feng shui the chair was like my back was facing the door and i just kept looking behind me it scared me that episode well if you'd like to go be scared and listen to apparently what could become our two-parter go back in time and listen to the bloody mary episode um these are some of the things if you count i guess between 3 to 47 times if you say her name that many these are the things that could happen based on where you live and what the cultural differences are some say that playing bloody mary leads to mary's

head appearing in the mirror with blood running down her face some people say her body appears with a bloody neck and no head at all sometimes uh drops of blood fall out of the mirror my god sometimes mary manifests physically and comes out of the mirror with a knife to drag you back into the mirror with her forever. And me at 13 is like, cool, let's do it. And every single person was like, sign me up. All children decided this is a good idea. Like, what the fuck? Speaking of which, because it talks about her bloody neck.

I got to ask because I just asked Allison earlier. I was like, where does your neck end and where does your throat begin and and how big is the threk you know i always thought your throat i always thought your throat was like in your neck like i thought this whole thing was your neck and like your throat is just the part where you swallow and i don't know i mean that's just in my own oh maybe i always thought your throat externally and internally was the part to the front and then the sides and back are the neck. No? Oh. So you think it was just like the back of her neck?

And she kept her throat? Like her tongue still flopping around in my hand. Oh, God. Oh, God. Oh, God. No, that makes sense. What was the belief that you had when you played Bloody Mary as a kid? What was the story? Which, again, we probably talked about in episode 90, but I don't remember.

It was much more tame than any of those descriptions. It was just that you would see someone standing behind you. Yeah, I thought it was like her mind was always her head would appear in the mirror. Like her face would appear in the mirror. Her head only? Was it floating or did she have no sick wow you know considering i didn't learn the word threat until two seconds ago um i don't think that was part of the game um but i just yeah i feel like the story i was told was like she would just appear in the mirror i don't think there was even like a more of a description than that you know what's wild is like for bloody mary it's like no one tells you what happens after she's appeared it's like do you just stand there and stare at each other and have a fucking

contest does she walk away somebody i think somebody just always screams yeah and then everyone screams and then mom yells downstairs like go to bed and then yeah you're all in trouble well like what if you saw her like what at some point maybe no one's lived to tell the tale oh no that's a good way to end it okay um some say that uh this is another um mirror stereotype that we have discussed over and over but some say hanging a mirror on a door also creates a portal for demons to enter your house. Oh, no. So if you put it on your front door, then you've technically erased the door. That's bad news.

But other people say that if you hang a mirror above a door, it keeps demons and bad spirits out. Sure. It's like reflecting them away. Sure. But I also, but like on the, if you're hanging a... Wouldn't if you're hanging it wouldn't it be the same wouldn't it be the same thing when you'd be erasing that chunk of wall yeah you'd think so i guess bricks are stronger i don't know i don't know some modern practitioners of witchcraft use mirrors to actually block negative energies even though it is common lore and stereotype stereotypical to say that mirrors

are only bad and only bring energy towards you so okay fair point a lot of people use them to push them out i wonder what you what like the speaking of like kinky people i don't know since you've got your weird little compartment you can answer this maybe but for the people who like put mirrors on the ceiling because they want to like watch stuff go down ooh la la what is happening there with the spirits oh they are saying next next portal please i don't think i need to be involved in this situation or they're saying oh i let me yeah i don't know is putting mirrors on your ceiling kind of like the cinemax for ghosts it's like oh let's flip through the channels go to portal now that you're like at a hotel and you're like oh shit i didn't mean to scroll so far you know

it's like hang on hang on hang on i didn't pay for this uh yeah maybe uh but maybe i don't mind but like what if i just scroll through one more time and just linger a little too long see what's but now now that we're here maybe we just watch and if someone like walks in the room i'm gonna keep my finger on the last button just in case. Right. We'll just go back to Nickelodeon real quick. Do you watch House of Usher? Is that porn?

What are you talking about? House of Usher? The fall of the House of Usher. Is it about Usher? I don't know what you're talking about. And all his many kinks? No. It's like, well, how did we get here it's uh it's uh it's that new netflix uh drama or uh horror series about um

ed ground poe no i don't even know what you're talking about no oh okay you know he did um he it's the same guy who did um uh haunting Hill House and Haunting of Bly Manor and Midnight Mass. Didn't know. I swear to God, I wasn't joking. I really thought there must be a connection to porn or Usher. Or both. Is it about Usher?

Or both. It's Mike Flanagan. Sorry, just to give cred. But it's really good. But there's a whole thing about him here. So I just. Oh, all right. Fun fact.

If you want to watch it. It's really good. It's all about a mirror, which is interesting because Black Mirror was very rarely about a mirror so i just oh all right in fact if you want to watch it's really good it's all about a mirror which is interesting because black mirror was very rarely a mirror a black one too obsidian oh just saying and just like that i'm um okay i promise i'm almost done i know we've gone for quite some time now i promise i'm loving it um but uh anyway there's another belief that okay we already did that blah blah blah oh some modern witches today say that they think spirits pass by and see their reflections and actually scare themselves and run away so that's like oh so instead of mirrors bringing things toward you even if they bring it toward you then they see themselves and freak out and run. So it ends up blocking energy.

I guess that depends on which coven or belief system you're working with. Or how you're maybe using it as a tool. How you're using it. Yeah. Interesting. I do like the idea of like seeing yourself is so scary that you got to bounce. But it does kind of play off of the jump scare it does feel like it plays off of like certain like once you're a ghost you don't have a

reflection once you're a vampire you don't have a reflection so maybe they see themselves and they go holy shit i thought i'm not supposed to be able to see this anymore i haven't seen my wart in hundreds of years it's like all of a sudden i'm back in the 1800s and i can't see what if you never looked in a mirror and now you're dead and you're like that's what i looked like you know oh my god oh yeah if you were if you died before mirrors and now you can see a reflection you're probably like jesus what the fuck is going on yeah um huh i feel like that could I could really spiral with that concept. I know.

I'm sorry. I keep like leading us astray. I just, I just, we could really. Quickly. Quickly. Quickly. Quickly. Oh, this leads to the belief that vampires and other creatures don't have reflections

because they don't have souls. Apparently witches also fall into this category for some people that, which I that they're doing mirror work but like couldn't possibly have their own fucking reflection also i know witches and i promise i have taken pictures of them and they show up in the goddamn picture um but what which is i don't see any but there is newer folklore these days which i love that folklore has to change and evolve with the story. It's so cool. New folklore theorizes that vampires actually would have reflections in modern day mirrors because old mirrors were made of silver, which is what vampires couldn't be near. That just clicked for me.

I never understood that. But now they'd be able to be seen in a mirror because mirrors aren't made with silver anymore. Whoa, that is tripping me out. Which also makes me think, would a werewolf survive a bullet if silver isn't what makes bullets anymore? You know what?

There's only one way to find out. Grab the BB gun. No, but so it's just like, You know what? There's only one way to find out. Grab the BB gun. No. No, but so it's just like, oh, well, with new inventions, you, like, almost have to come up with, like, like, what if, like, what, what if the ingredient in garlic. Yeah. You know, what if that changed? What if we're, like, now, like, eating that out? You know, when they're, like, bananas, like, are different are different than they were like 40 years ago because they got yeah or there used to be

purple carrots another orange it's like well what if not all carrots you know like what if it's the orange carrots that you you're fine with but the purple carrots right anyway so so many mysteries nowadays vampires nowadays vampires would have uh no reflection or would have reflections, I guess, unless they went to an antique store. But another online theory has cropped up that vampires were only invisible in mirrors, not because they didn't have a soul and thus no reflection, but because silver actually cleanses reflections, which i don't know where that information comes from but that's one of the sources that i guess silver was oh oh oh no i do have it sorry i i missed a bullet um a silver bullet wow good one christine by the way speaking of au um i have alu yeah i saw a baby at the airport yesterday and i do this thing that everybody has probably heard at least once in their life if you've heard my voice where um when i get really

excited about things i have this kind of like gay little chirp i go ah like i just can't yeah with the hand i can't stop myself for sure i saw a baby and it was like a toddler. It was like Leona's age. And I waved to the baby. Baby, not interested. But then had a thought about it again and seemed interested all of a sudden. And then turns around a second time and waves to me with a big goofy smile. And so I got so excited. I looked at Allison and I went, ah! And the baby did it back.

No! And went, ah! Okay. Now that's delightful i was like that's precious okay now that would happen in a sitcom and i'd go that would never happen like that's how cute that is yeah i was like i think i accidentally just like taught him how to be a girly which i love yeah but which like i was like good for him good for him um okay so and for my next trick um there's a theory that uh vampires were only invisible in mirrors because silver actually cleansed their reflection because the reason silver was so popular at a different time was because it was a purifying agent or thought to be a purifying agent to treat disease um and so it was by being in a mirror it was treating disease or spiritual

ailments spiritual disease by getting rid of vampires which is what a vampire has okay so if that is technically true and with modern mirrors they would be able to see themselves then vampires have always had reflections there was just things in their way i see interesting i love this yeah um it's also said that when ghosts or demons walk by mirrors the mirror might crack or tarnish because it is trying to hold in their spiritual power which that terrifies me but it would also make sense why in a lot of like scary stories it's like oh and then all of a sudden this thing shattered or all of a sudden this thing you know imploded on itself interesting we've had people talk about glass just like breaking there

was one story on a listener's episode where like in college like her whole mirror shattered or something exactly what i was thinking about yeah sometimes the image of the creature walking by in the mirror is said to even permanently stay reflected in the mirror like a broken screensaver i guess oh no um which imagine if only like one time in her goddamn life could bloody mary do this where she's like oh well i'll just stay here forever then and then you can walk back and forth. She's still there. You've got the evidence, you know. Yeah. You got her. And her throat. Her throat.

Her throat, obviously. Obviously. And this one I think is like so smart. Mirrors used to be used by doctors and morticians to make sure they weren't accidentally burying patients alive because they would hold a mirror close up to their mouth to see if breathing would leave fog yeah i've seen that condensation on tv shows where they would hold the mirror up i had no idea yeah didn't even occur to me but i feel like that is like some of the smartest medical strategizing i've ever seen yeah yeah it's like DIY grassroots medicine. Mirrors have also continued to be used as divination tools for centuries. And I also thought I could just end on a few more superstitions.

And I ended specifically on Ireland just because we started with Ireland. But one is that if two people look in the mirror at the same time, one might die soon, which yikes. Oh, no. look in the mirror at the same time one might die soon which yikes oh no what about that era where we all like before selfies and we all had to take mirror pictures oh god and then you'd see all the dirt all over your mirror or was that just me like there's just like splotches on it and it reflects back on your digital camera oh god another one is if you look in the mirror at midnight on halloween you will see in the reflection your future spouse i personally think it'd be hysterical if you look in the mirror at midnight on Halloween you will see in the reflection your future spouse I personally think it'd be hysterical if you looked and now you're like is that my

spouse or is that Bloody Mary like it could be both she is a crush on me I feel like you'd look I feel like I'd look in and it would just be me and I'd be like yep sorry I'd be like it was those damn shoulders I knew it years ago. I love myself. I'm narcissists. Oh, I see what you're saying. I thought you literally meant if it was you. Oh, I meant it was just me. I got there.

Oh, you meant for you? No, I meant I look in it and it's me alone. You were like, what if it was me? Wouldn't that be crazy if it was me? Wouldn't that be crazy? And I was like, this is gay. I love it. Unless.

I mean, i'm just joking but like if only like let's go along for the ride see where it takes us um no i'm i'm gonna look at the mirror it's just gonna be me and they're gonna be like see you're alone forever ha ha good luck i understand yeah yeah anyway um uh okay so here's another one that i think is just so odd and it's only because i didn't grow up with it but when when I read it, I was like, I never expected this to be one full sentence. Um, you have to peel an apple in one continuous peel without breaking the skin and then look in the mirror to see your reflection. version of this is that you're facing the mirror you're peeling the apple don't break the skin then you throw the skin over your left shoulder and when you look at it later it will have formed into the shape of your initials the initial of who you're going to marry yeah i've heard that um which i think is super cool like it sounds honestly like a fun game it feels like a halloween

bobbing for apples kind of game yeah there's something about these apples yeah that are like part little teenage party games were apples just like the most accessible thing from these damn people i mean horses were eating them so they couldn't have been that special i mean not that horses aren't special but you know actually i'm kind of craving apples so that's my fun little treat after we record good for you gonna be a little crazy today huh you gotta have that's my fun little treat after we record. Good for you. You're going to be a little crazy today, huh? You're going to have an FLT fun little treat or else it's just not going to go well today.

Don't tell me. Also, there's a related ritual that if you cut an apple into nine slices, eat the first eight, and then throw the ninth at the mirror, your future husband will catch the slice. Wild. Has anyone done this with six asses yeah well i mean has anyone you wouldn't know unless you were the person on the receiving end and a slice of apple came out of your mirror right yeah like how else would you catch it i don't understand talk about facetime because then like you catch it then you look in the mirror there's a person you don't know do you throw it back at them like what do you do you know that's actually why um they named it apple why facetime apple because of the apple what was that a bad joke or is that true no it's not true i'm saying like because you said facetime original facetime i

said yeah that's why they named the company apple you know okay that is it doesn't it's literally the dumbest thing no no i took it literally and i was like face time just ignore me let's let's just um evidence that i will always blindly follow whatever you're saying i love that for me thanks okay last thing i'm gonna say is that newlyweds are supposed to stand in front of a mirror together this so get ready blaze um so so that their souls are bound together in the spirit world by their reflections no thanks that seems like a lot of pressure like getting married is one thing but like binding your souls together for eternity like yeah that's longer than marriage because marriage is just for life.

But the mirror is for death. As far as I'm concerned, a prenup does not cover that part of the commitment. Also, didn't they also just say that if the two of you stand in a mirror together, one of you is going to die soon? It is exactly what I thought. I was like, are we not supposed to do that or what?

I'm confused. It's also said to be bad luck for brides-to-be to break a mirror um and really anyone who breaks a mirror in ireland is said to have up to seven years of bad luck i have heard that one seven bad years that's definitely a big one yeah and also there's other customs where like i like a jewish wedding where you break the glass to for good luck so right you know everyone's got their thing everyone's got their flavor with a mirror. And then I wanted to tell you one last thing.

I wanted to end again on fun facts about mirrors. And I just wanted to give you a couple. One is that the longest mirror in the world is over 20 miles long in Bolivia. Holy shit. 20 miles long. Then I wanted to tell you that the first rear view mirror was invented by a woman.

Yeah, it was. And then what was the last one I wanted to say to you? Um, Juniper's, do you hear that? Juniper's throwing his entire body against the door. Like, no, I can't hear it at all. He was meowing and it was annoying, but I was like, I don't think it's getting picked up. And then he started hurling his body into the door and it's, huh?

Do you hear that no okay but speaking of hearing things the last fun fact i have for you is that mirrors can reflect sound waves not just light waves um they are known as acoustic mirrors and were used during during world war ii for detecting sound waves of the enemy really that's fun fact i did not know that and that is mirrors 101 i want to take 201 right now oh well hang on i have to do a bunch of research first i guess you have to take 201 first first i have to learn how to build a fucking mirror and something about volcanoes you have to know what sea glass is, which I think we have to start from the beginning. I feel like mirrors, not to sound like a mirror nut, but I feel like mirrors are a lot harder than they're given credit for.

I feel like thinking about just the thought of making a mirror, I all of a sudden feel like the dumbest person on earth. No, it's very trippy. I feel like if you get high and think about mirrors, it probably breaks your brain a little bit um i i also once learned from um vsauce which is like one of my favorite youtubers that i used to watch as a kid i remember that for uh that mirrors are actually green yeah and that if you put enough next to each other and do an infinity mirror where you look into one you can see eternity eternity, just endless, endless, endless.

It slowly gets greener and greener and greener and greener. Whoa. Fun fact. Green lava. That's where it all began. Oh. We found our way back. We always do.

We do. And that's why I drink. Christine, tell me why you drink this week. Okay. Well, first I have to let my cat in. I'm sorry. He really is hurling his entire body against the wall i mean it really sounds like ed ground poe speaking of um so i'm gonna go let him in real quick i so apologize and um while i'm standing

right there i have to pee you know you get it please stand by we have to step away oh it's junie i'm sorry yeah so i go pee i come back he's already in my spot and you can see his tail probably throughout the rest of the episode little tushy oh sorry about that i gotta move this so junie can get comfortable oh honey i'm sorry i whacked you clonk him on the head i did i clonked him in the nose i'm sorry bud he does not seem perturbed oh sweet little baby okay here we go. Now, I'm going to tell you a story that is, let's put it mildly, a fucking doozy. I will admit, the first time I learned about this case, it was a couple years ago. I cannot remember which YouTuber I watched, and I couldn't really find the video.

But I watched a YouTube, and it might have been taken down. I watched and I couldn't really find the video, but I watched a YouTube and it might have been taken down. Um, but I watched a YouTube video about this case and I totally bought the kind of narrative that this YouTuber was telling me like this true crime YouTuber. Um, and I feel like I had to reeducate myself on this case pretty intensely to like relearn everything. And let's just say I got kind of a one-sided story when I originally learned about it. And I have since learned that there's a much more to it than I ever thought or knew. And I am very, very curious because I'm assuming this might be the first time you've heard about it. I'm very curious to hear your thoughts once I tell it. This is the case of Darlie Routier.

I've heard her name pronounced Routier, Routier, Routier, but I'm pretty sure it's Routier and they live in Texas. So I don't think it's Routier, but maybe. Maybe it was. And then they go, my name's Routier. Routier something rootier yeah so rootier is the one i've heard like the most often so we're gonna say rootier okay and darlie and darren so you do you know this case but you by any chance not even not even okay no so it's also sometimes called the silly string case um don't know that either no okay i know the smiley face yeah the smiley face killer yep that's the thing too but not the same um so darlie and darren rootier met in texas when darren who was 17 worked at the same steakhouse where darlie's mom worked and according to

darlie's mom darren approached her and asked about her beautiful daughter he'd heard about and uh her mom introduced the two and darlie was 15 um and he said she walked in the room and i was just smitten they just fell in love and within four years they were married darlie gave birth to their first son, Devin, just about nine months after their wedding. So I can't do math, but I can do that math. Darren started a successful electronics company that made circuit boards. And this is the 90s. So pretty quickly they find some success because I'm imagining circuit boards in the 90s was like cutting it. Not as easy of a go as it might be today for some people. Right, right, right.

Like there's, you know, this is the dawn of Radio Shack, like the heyday of Radio Shack. So he is making these circuit boards and this means they are starting to make quite a bit of money. And neither of them come from money in their background. So this was a pretty new experience for them. So they bought a beautiful new house for their growing family in Rowlett, Texas. And like I said, they were new to having loads of money. And so they were known as being extremely flashy. And they basically spent and spent and were very open about how much money they had they like to show their wealth you know um they would they bought a boat they bought a used

jaguar they the car not the animal um they went used not rescued They went on that. Not rescued. That used Jaguar. Could you please tell Gio that, oh, we got his used. We got him used. He was cheaper. But gently used. He was really cheap. Gently used. He was used. I checked his Carfax.

It was not pretty. And so, unfortunately, he was very cheap. Yes. So they bought the car, the Jaguar uh they went on family trips and cruises uh they lived in kind of an uppity neighborhood she would wear these like really like kind of bawdy jewelry pieces um you know you know what i'm saying like they bought fancy watches they were like those kind of people um but they were really well loved in the community. And like their neighbors had nothing but good things to say about them.

They considered them a fun young couple. You know, they had these cute kids. They had their second son, Damon, who was born just a year younger than Devin. So they had two boys. Darlie was a stay at home mom and friends described her as fun loving, caring. She was extremely active in her son's lives and her house was actually sort of i mean which i think you had this kind of experience where like her house was sort of like the home base like all the neighborhood kids would gather

right and like yes play there and all meet together and she always took care of the her own kids but also like was a mom to the other kids in the neighborhood um kids called their house the in the nintendo house because of course they had an elaborate game room i feel like that's a very 90s like nouveau riche thing to like put a game room together it's like the dream right oh yeah to this day i want a game room i mean seriously i mean yeah me too i'm just thinking about how i don't have a closet and you don't have a dresser, but we want a game room so bad. Anyway, I guess I have a troll hole. So I guess the games could do.

That is kind of your game room. And I have this room full of full of haunted artifacts. So I guess that's my game room. Maybe we feel like adult game rooms. You can think about like how some people like there's the the cinemax for ghosts of watching you know through a a mirror or ceiling if my room had a ceiling full of mirrors they would just see me doing this in vr all day it would just be just like slowly turning just turning just standing in silence and then saying god damn it i didn't get a tip from that bitch at the bar

at the star bar what's it called stargazer what's it called uh the game or the show yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah but by the way i do have a shift later on today so i'm pretty excited about i haven't been there in a while so all right i'll uh i'll speed things up um if you wouldn't mind because they're i can already tell that it's gonna it's gonna be a busy day it's gonna be tough holidays it's right you're right people are recovering from a lot of locals coming back home yeah oh you're gonna have to but you're gonna get so many good stories from you have no idea and there's interplanetary she's always there yeah oh god i can't wait okay so anyway the nintendo house um because they had this elaborate game room and devin and damon were very happy children uh Devin was kind of the outgoing one

he loved to make people laugh he wasn't afraid of anything he was doing flips off the diving board like the minute he start learned how to swim he was like yeah like very like crazy fun loving kid and Damon was the opposite he actually felt he was more shy he liked to stay close to adults for reassurance and the R rutiers spent as much time as possible together and from the outside as it often tends to be friends thought the family had a perfect life but of course behind the scenes that is usually not the case for any family especially when that ends up in a true crime podcast so what was going on is that in september of 1995 darlie was pregnant with their third son whose name of course we got damon devon do you have a guess derrick dylan drake you were very

close oh thank you actually very close drake so darlie devon damon and drake and uh and uh damon and drake and uh and uh there wait okay sorry darlie darren devon damon and drake that's the whole family it's it's really kooky there's a lot of uh a lot of confusing names okay yeah a lot of d's so charlie uh darlie was pregnant with her son, Drake, and she started to struggle with depression. And, you know, it was the 90s. It wasn't that long ago. But even nowadays, people are still learning about, you know, postpartum depression, prenatal depression, like just all the kind of mental health hormonal shit that happens when you are carrying a child. kind of mental health hormonal shit that happens when you are carrying a child. And so back then, you know, this was probably something that wasn't necessarily taken as seriously as it might be nowadays. But she was very, very deeply affected by it, as evidenced in a journal entry in which she wrote, Devin and Damon are growing so fast, and I see myself getting older each day. I am now

seven months pregnant, and we're bringing Drake Routier into the world. I have had two dreams about death in the past several months. Both times I was hesitant to go, but when I did, it was such a wonderful feeling, one that you cannot describe. And both times I felt I was going to be with the Lord. So these are what her thoughts are.

And that October, she also wrote about feelings that many mothers face as they're trying to find like a new identity or like a new balance of identity, reconciling being, you know, your individual self and also a mother, a parent. the following. I really love Darren, her husband, with all my heart, but sometimes I feel like I'm missing something. I'm sure I have everything every woman could ever wish for. Maybe it's the excitement, things I used to do when I was younger, the thrill of not knowing, just doing whatever came up. I know I have a lot of responsibilities, but a little craziness once in a while sure wouldn't hurt. I want to grow old with Darren, but I don't want to feel as though part of me has to die to do it. I am young and I want to feel it and that just makes me sad and she got married at 18 and like you know I have friends who face that as well where they're like wow you know I feel like I kind of rushed not I won't say rush but like maybe did this step earlier and then felt whether it's true or not but felt like maybe

they missed felt like a loss of their youth or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because they were jumping out of being a married couple. Right. Like you're sort of skipping maybe something that your friends are going through and experiencing. Yeah, missing a chapter of life is a fair reason to be bummed out. Exactly. And so after she gave birth to Drake, the depression as you know, I feel like if you have this during your pregnancy, it tends to really be exacerbated after the birth. And she fell into a deep postpartum depression, which can be so, so scary. She was prepared to take her own life.

She began an entry in her diary, and it was a suicide note to her three sons asking for their forgiveness. And this just, like, makes—it's just heartbreaking. She wrote, I hope that one day you will forgive me for what I am about to do. My life has been such a hard fight for a long time, and I just cannot find the strength to keep fighting anymore. I love you three more than anything else in this world. I don't want you to see a miserable person every time you look at me. Your dad loves you all very much and I know in my heart he will take care of my babies. Please do not hate me or think in any way that this is your fault. It's

just that I, and according to a friend, Darren walked in right as she was finishing this letter and she already had the pills out that she was planning to use to take her own life so thankfully darren was able to stop her you know before she made that move and the friend uh who who knew the story urged darlie to get help and told darren you know you need to find a counselor for darlie to help her out and get her through this before she makes a decision like that. And unfortunately, they did not take this friend's advice. Wow. So they both recalled that it was just a few rough days. And then she kind of recovered and said, you know what? No, I've moved past those feelings. I'm okay now. But what doesn't help is that Darlie and Darren were also under extreme financial strain. And, you know, that's why I kind of mentioned the way that they spent their money on flashy things, on big purchases, kind of not really knowing how to maybe save their money or utilize it in a way that would last.

or utilize it in a way that would last. And so suddenly they are in debt. And at one point, I believe they owed, I think it was like $22,000, but that was in the 90s, you know, and so much higher now. Significantly more. So business had slowed down pretty dramatically. They owed thousands of dollars on credit cards and taxes. They were behind on the mortgage and their office rental space. And despite their financial situation, which was pretty dire, they were still planning vacations and trips and cruises. And Darren applied for loans to fund the trips, but because of his debt was denied. So friends said Darren and Darlie began arguing a lot and Darlie just didn't seem like herself. Later, there would be claims that Darren said Darlie cleaned obsessively

but couldn't keep up with her sons. He allegedly talked about her postpartum weight gain and said Darlie was exhausted and sick of everything. But Darren adamantly denied ever saying any of that when questioned. So we don't know if this is just like hearsay or gossip. But either way, on June 5th of 1996, their friend Barbara came over a little after five and noticed that the atmosphere in the house was very tense. Darlie was extremely upset. She was pacing back and forth, very agitated throughout the house. And Barbara, I imagine, backed out slowly and said, I'm going to leave you two to work this out. I'll give you a second.

I think I walked into theintendo house at the wrong time so she's like i just wanted to play super mario but i guess things are awkward so i'm gonna leave the your tetris will wait that's right what's a pong pong will wait uh till next week i guess um so barbara left and decided to let them work things out. And what happened next is somewhat unclear. In the original statements, Darren and Darlie both said they had an uncomfortable conversation about their finances, their cars and their boat. And they were both upset. Darlie was having trouble keeping up with the sons in the house. And that was the conversation that they originally said they had. But later, they both refuted that and said they never argued that night, despite the previous statements. And according to their final official testimonies,

that night was calm. They had a regular conversation about stressful topics like any normal couple and then just, you know, kissed and went to bed. And that was that. But the following night is when everything went tragically, tragically wrong. So Darren said of June 6th, 1996, when I went to sleep, everything was perfect. When I woke up, it's been a nightmare ever since. Damon wanted to sleep downstairs just for fun. So they did that like classic camp out in the living room, you know, which just like such a highlight of youth. I feel like, yeah, right. And it's to this day, I still want my friends to come over and do that with me. I know. And I'm like, I'm my contacts. Where am I going to put them? I have medication. I'm old. My back hurts. Don't worry. I'm depressed about it. I get it. I get it. Yeah. And then I cause you to pray. It's all cyclical. But yeah, they camped out on the floor that night and Darlie joined them and slept on the couch. Meanwhile, Darren and the baby Drake, who was

really an infant, slept in his crib upstairs. So according to Darlie, oh, my stomach turns every time this part of the story comes up. Okay. According to Darlie, she woke up at about 2.30 a.m. because her son Damon was pressing on her shoulder and she heard him say, Mommy. So in the dark, she saw the shadow of a man near the couch. He turned and moved toward the kitchen and she heard glass breaking she was still groggy but she followed him into the kitchen where she saw a knife on the floor which she said

she instinctively picked up the man escaped through the garage and darlie went back to the living room where she turned on the lights and found both of her sons, Devin and Damon, on the floor bleeding profusely. So this person didn't hurt her? We'll get there. So literally the next sentence is, it was then that she registered her own wounds as well, which she had no memory of getting because, again, she woke up when her son pressed on her arm. Right right she had a cut on her neck and a cut on her arm and uh we'll get into that a little more okay but it appeared

that she was suffering from amnesia about the attack she just simply did not remember it was like she blacked out a big portion of it. Like someone could have hit her in the head. Well, she didn't have any head injuries. It was almost like either a traumatic response or, as some people claim, a lie. So let's get into it. Can I say a really quick one?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Before I forget this note. I mean, unless there was head trauma where she couldn't remember, I don't understand already how she didn't feel an arm and throat injury, but she felt her son gently pressing her arm. Yep, that is one of the crux of a lot of the debate, yes. And this is one of the most, as I've learned, one of the most polarizing true crime stories. Oh, shit. OK. That's still debated pretty, pretty thoroughly and pretty angrily by people on the Internet.

And I got swept up in some comments and went, whoa, people really take this stuff really far. Well, thanks for dragging me in with you. I can't wait to publicly state my opinion. oh my god oh god it's a mess okay so they she realizes she has been injured as well um and it it it appeared she had suffered from some sort of amnesia surrounding the attack um perhaps brought on by trauma, perhaps a head injury, but she didn't really receive a head injury, so probably not that. Perhaps it's a lie. It's unclear. But essentially, her exact memory of the timeline of when she had been stabbed and when the boys were stabbed is very foggy. What she does know is when she saw the boys on the

floor, she started screaming. Darren, her husband, woke up and came downstairs to find Darlie in complete shock. He said she just kept shouting, Devin, Devin, Devin. He saw his sons on the floor and got to Devin first. Darren tried to do CPR on Devin, but when he blew into his mouth, the air and blood came out of Devin's chest because the stab wounds had punctured his lungs oh my god it's really fucking horrible oh my god that'll that alone is a traumatic event it's all incredibly incredibly traumatic so darlie called 9-1-1 in hysterics and i've listened to this call many times uh she screamed they just stabbed me and my children. They just stabbed me and my kids, my little boys. And this 911 call has gotten a lot of analysis, a lot of conflicting opinions from people.

Experts have had problems with the way that she's said my kids, my boys, but won't say their names on the call. my kids, my boys, but won't say their names on the call. You know, just things that are kind of like not necessarily a smoking gun, but kind of a weird look. Somewhat suspicious or something. Perhaps. And so there's been a lot of critique of that 911 call as well. Meanwhile, Damon was lying on his stomach. And in the 911 call, darlie is heard telling her

sons to hold on and be strong in an interview darlie said one of the boys likely damon who is still somewhat responsive said okay mommy and those were his last words oh it's horrible it's horrible and i'm sorry he wasn't even they weren't he was okay yeah so first responders arrived and devon had already passed um damon and darley were taken to the hospital and damon was unfortunately declared dead on arrival having succumbed to his wounds in the ambulance uh they'd been viciously stabbed but darley was also in bad shape as mentioned, she had a stab wound in her arm and she had a cut to her throat. And I was I was kind of waffling on how to tell this story because there's so many different angles to come at it from. But I'll just tell you that the injuries she sustained were later described as superficial.

And that was how prosecution uh presented the evidence and yet we know now which is this kind of information that i was saying i i didn't get until later that actually uh and i looked up the photos they're they're pretty horrific of her in the hospital um really okay yeah her stab wound in her arm went to the bone, like went straight to the bone. Oh, shit. And her throat was cut to only one or two millimeters from her carotid artery. Oh, wow. She had to be rushed into surgery. And, you know, one of the arguments, I'll just kind of spoil this part now, but one of the arguments was that she had inflicted this wound on herself to make it look like she'd been attacked. Right. was that she had inflicted this wound on herself to make it look like she'd been attacked. Right.

But, you know, to be a millimeter or two millimeters away from your carotid artery is something that's not easy. Deep ass cut. Also not not easy to like measure. Like you wouldn't necessarily be like, all right, great. I'll stop right before my carotid artery. Like, you know, the average person wouldn't really know how to do that. And what's more is that the reason that the knife, which should have killed her uh the cut in her neck should have killed her the reason it didn't is because a necklace she was wearing actually got in the way and they had to surgically remove the necklace and so it's not even like oh someone like meticulously sliced there but the way that it was presented to me in that first youtube video watched and you

know to more importantly the jury was that these are superficial self-inflicted wounds is how it was presented and this is where this is all getting very muddy and where people argue back and forth and back and forth about whether she could have done this or not well i don't even know like i don't know the rest of the story so I don't know when to time my questions. But yeah, just go ahead. I know. I feel like it's hard when you don't know the whole thing. So you can tell me, you know, I'll tell you later.

But are people is there a camp of people who say that it was self-inflicted but she although it's usually men was being a family annihilator and actually i mean she was already having suicidal ideation that's so interesting just taking the kids out yeah that's so interesting you say that because um i was listening to a few podcasts about this story just to hear what other people's takes were and i'd love to hear when other people find like sources that aren't, you know, on every other show. But on the Crime Junkie episode, I listened to, it was a two-parter and they mentioned family annihilators and they made a good point that, you know, family annihilators are typically, it doesn't really fit the mold of that because the husband and baby were still upstairs. It just doesn't quite fit that that kind of family

annihilator trope you know family annihilators are almost always men um but the financial strain also kind of plays into that where you're thinking like well maybe um there's a burden maybe they're a burden to her in her mind you know and i i don't know the rest of the story yet but i feel like maybe because so many family annihilators are men we don't have enough information on what female family annihilators would look like but i i wonder if she was thinking after her last near attempt she was like you know maybe it would be easier for my husband to grieve if he didn't also have to watch the kids or maybe i take the kids with me or something like something yeah i don't know it's it's odd because i feel like typically a family annihilator goes for the children and

the partner right to like move on to a new life and it feels almost like yeah it could be why hurt the kids and not him yeah right like it feels like almost maybe they got in a fight and like this was a for him to suffer i don't i don't know i i don't know it sounds like they were in love though yeah it's hard because it's like every theory kind of makes sense and then kind of doesn't. So it's like there's not one thing that really fits all of the clues, all of the evidence, all of the motives. It's bizarre. It's bizarre. So Darlie was in bad shape. Right.

So turns out I learned later that her injury went straight to the bone and her carotid was like a millimeter away from being cut which would have killed her so they rushed her into surgery um there are photos of her in the hospital with bruising like from i think it's from her wrist to her armpit like these thick dark horrible bruises um and according to darlie's sister after her surgery darlie was groggy and just wanted to touch her son's photos and just weep. And she kept asking, why my boys? Why my boys? And her bruising from her wrist to her armpit was like really dark and disturbing. She had cuts on her hands that were consistent with defensive wounds from someone stabbing at you or from grabbing the knife as someone tried to stab.

or from grabbing the knife as someone tried to stab. And it was on her, I believe, her left hand, which kind of indicated it wouldn't have come from if she were stabbing with her dominant, which was she was right-handed. So, you know, it didn't seem like it was from stabbing herself. It seemed like a defensive wound. But other people, as I learned online,

have said, no, those are paper cuts. Those are not defensive wounds. She was just putting paper cuts on her hands. And I'm like, well, I, those are paper cuts. Those are not defensive wounds. She was just putting paper cuts on her hands. And I'm like, well, I guess you can say whatever. And we don't know. So everyone has a differing opinion on this. So the stab wound on her arm was also consistent with defensive wounds someone gets when they raise their arms over their face to shield themselves. Like the bruising was deep and dark on that part of her forearms.

And Darlie described the attacker as a tall white man with long hair and a baseball cap but it was too dark and she was too kind of out of it to make out a lot of details now at first the crime scene seemed to support her story so there was a cut screen in a garage window where the intruder seemed to have entered and exited the house and it had been cut from the outside there were bloody footprints and broken glass on the kitchen floor however the blood ended up being underneath the broken glass let me explain that better there was broken glass that she claimed had happened i think before the stabbings or before this person fled and then the way that the blood ended up being not on top of the glass it was almost police sort of took it and turned it into she was staging a crime scene by breaking glass after the attack that she had perpetrated so that was one of the

kind of immediate clues so to speak that law enforcement decided pointed the finger at her and uh there were also bloody fingerprints found in the house um including prints that did not match darlie darren or the boys oh okay yeah so that's odd i don't know if they mentioned barbara i don't know if they checked barbara who was over playing fucking super mario earlier but poor babs yeah perhaps he's like trying to get the high score on pong and no one will let her um in the hospital investigators asked darlie questions about her husband darren and she realized like shit they might be thinking he did this and so she made it clear he was not the attacker it was not him he was asleep upstairs and a nurse in the hospital said she had never seen anyone

as scared as darlie was when she was a patient of hers um the hospital she's at least acting very well yes yes and i feel like that was never highlighted when this case was kind of in the media because she was pretty quickly vilified and so it's interesting to hear this angle that she actually was like deeply terrified and the hospital staff was really focused on keeping her safe because she thought maybe her attacker was still on the loose you know and was still after her so in the following days Darley was released from the hospital and the Routiers buried the boys this makes makes me cry they buried them together in one casket um holding hands jesus i know it's fucking awful um at the funeral family had to physically hold darlie up so she wouldn't collapse in grief and at first the public rallied

in support for darlie and darren like they were really on their side obviously this is such a fucking tragedy but nobody knew that behind the scenes investigators were quietly building a case against Darlie whom they had suspected as the perpetrator of this from the very start okay so on June 14th the Routiers decided to have a birthday party at the cemetery for Devin, who would have turned seven a week after the murder. So Darlie's mom said to Darlie, let's just for one day try to get through it without crying a lot. She wanted her daughter to find a little joy and to celebrate the life of her boys in the wake of the tragedy. So the Routiers and their friends attended this party at the grave site along with several other children. They covered the boys' graves in balloons and other decorations. And then they all smiled and sang happy birthday.

And then she got out Silly String and began spraying it all over the grave site. I think you can probably see where this is going. And they were laughing. And a local news station of course filmed the entire event and aired it and that's when things started to go very south for darlie because people were shocked by the way she reacted to having a funeral at her son's gravesite a week after their brutal murder a birthday party yeah a birthday party and so she was you know smiling and laughing and um many people and sersha wrote this in here like many

people commented on the fact that she was chewing gum which sersha found odd but like i kind of get i do kind of get that because i feel like it's a fidget like a no she was just kind of get I do kind of get that because I feel like to fidget like a no she was just kind of like you know when like people are like smacking gum really loud and it's sort of like it feels very casual and like you're just shooting the shit you know yeah so she has like a big wad of gum in her mouth and I know this is a lot of people's pet peeves it's definitely one of my mother's pet peeves but like she's just kind of like smacking her gum really loudly while she talks to the reporters and it's like oh you know they would have wanted us to be happy and i know they're celebrating in heaven and it was a little bit like a little too casual a little too casual a little too soon a

little too upbeat for most people to kind of swallow um as like a grieving mother one week after the murder of her two boys you know it felt it felt off and i will say like now i've really changed the way i think about this case but at the same time okay i yeah at the same time though i like still watch that clip and go really yeah it's not a good look you know she's joking she's spraying silly paint silly spray like they're laughing it up and like you know out of context admittedly there is more context which we'll get to but out of context at the very least it's not a good look and i feel like if you are in a scenario where you're trying to say hey you know what i just realized too she didn't know that they were looking at her as a suspect so

maybe in her mind she didn't have to show like grief or something the grief that she thought people would want to see like she probably didn't even cross her mind um i don't know maybe that's the issue i mean i also i'm not a parent and i i i can't imagine you know't imagine acting that fine for one day and one day only a week after to celebrate a birthday. I feel like there would still be really intense moments of sorrow. And I also understand that people grieve differently. But I don't know. I haven't seen the video, so I don't know how it looks. But I'm going to take your word for it.

Yeah, I think there's just an inherent like discomfort when you watch it, like an unease where you're like. Is it like the Chris Watts thing where he was just acting a little too not concerned during the interview? Yes, it's almost. Yes, that's kind of the same vibe. Right. Exactly. It's like it's like, yeah, people grieve differently, of course. And we do talk about that a lot. And it's very it's like yeah people grieve differently of course and we do talk about that a lot and it's very relevant in this case but it's almost like in a public show like that it just felt very like people i feel like people on the outside who didn't even know the boys were still grieving so deeply and like to see you know a very kind of flippant like birthday celebration with Silly String and like all giggling and like eating cake.

It just seemed very like too soon, like not not the right vibe. I don't know. It's hard to explain because also like this all subjective. And again, like Saoirse is right. Like there's no reason somebody shouldn't be able to chew gum when they're grieving their son's death you know but it's just something like about the interview where she's just smacking her gum really loud that just feels very like hello are you taking this seriously you know and again like there's more imagine if it was just like a like a nervous i know and it might be like normal and she's like no it probably it probably is and like i feel for most people, they're like, what is your problem with the gum? I just know people who have such an issue with that, like sensory or like just pet peeve about people smacking their gum that I'm sure like that just rubbed people the wrong way.

So I just want to put that out there because I feel like it's easy to say, oh, well, why can't she chew gum or why can't she not against Saoirse but for people who've said like well what's the big deal for doing like a celebration of life and like of course I just think there's a human side to at least me or some people who watch this a lot of people who watch this and felt like there's also some people this is not by the way me saying like well some people are sensitive that's not what I'm felt like there's also some people this is not by the way me saying like well some people are sensitive that's not what i'm saying but there's some people who are like maybe reading into the situation because of course you would like maybe there's like a some people are just human yes like a heightened a heightened awareness that like what she's doing

and if it's something especially that like annoys you or makes you uncomfortable you're probably gonna not look so highly upon it or also like i would i would hope and i think i'm prepared to say that like a lot of us have never been in that situation so none i think we're also playing the comparing game of like what would i be like and it's not that so definitely and exactly it's like when i grieve i'm not going to spray silly paint all over my dead six-year-old's grave and it's like well you know what i feel like you're pulling the context out of it and you're not you don't know that you don't know what you do this is something i mean i've talked about this before but i

when on on my grandparents death days i like to do something that I know that they would enjoy doing. Yeah. I could see if I had a six-year-old who just passed away and I was still, like, trying with anything I had left in me to celebrate their birthday, they would have wanted a silly string fight. Like, I can totally see that. I think, like, maybe, like, the one-on-one interview with the gum smacking I could see myself feeling weird about. But I don't personally feel any weirdness towards, like, trying to throw a birthday party on your dead kid's birthday. Like, yeah, I guess it was just that it was like six days later and like it was such a brutal murder. You know what I mean? Like it wasn't like, oh, he died of cancer and we knew this was coming and like we just want to celebrate his life. And again, this is also subjective and I'm not saying like, oh, well, if he had died of cancer, it it would be okay that's not what i'm saying no no we're on the same we're on the same page i

think we totally are i think the public sentiment was like what the fuck like we're on your side but like what are you doing like because throwing this like big bash at your son's grave the one-on-one um interview that feels that sounds like it was a little cringe that part i would i can definitely see myself questioning more but like even if my mom you know or if anyone i cared about knock on wood please don't let this happen like if someone suddenly passed away if you died suddenly i would even if it was the next day i feel like i would try to be like but i also feel like you would like i mean maybe i'm wrong but i also feel like you would... I mean, maybe I'm wrong, but I also feel like you might...

You would probably do it in a more, like, almost reverent or, like, emotional sad way. I don't know. Maybe not. But I feel like there would be, like, sadness, right?

Like, at least some. Yeah. And so... It would be flip-flopping all day between, like, oh, you would really like this and then crying 10 minutes later. This would mean something to you.

I wish you were here, and i feel like um and i i say all this because this is what the public was shown and there is more context that we will get later but okay okay from this just this clip it's in my opinion not a good look uh okay i haven't seen it and like i said blind trust i am gonna send it to you um okay so yeah i'll send it to you afterward just uh just out of so you can see it and i'm curious what you think um oh we'll do that in the after chat i'll show you the video you can tell me what you think okay perfect uh after hours so Content. Hashtag content. Really sad, fucked up content. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, in any case,

the Silly String incident happened and the public tide kind of turned against Darlie, right? Mm-hmm. Okay. So the prosecutor on the case later said, I was really taken aback by her demeanor as a parent i found it disgusting and there's a lot of attack on you said character assassination

or character attack earlier and i like couldn't stop thinking about it because it is exactly part of this case a lot of character assassination is involved here um by the way i said that um not while recording no sorry it was earlier we were just like joking about something else in case people were like why did they delete that no no no no sorry good point good point that phrase essentially is what i was like ding ding ding that's what this case is uh a lot about about a lot a lot about forget it so english you know. Not your first. Not the first.

A few days after the birthday party, Darlie and Darren were called to the police station and they were excited. They thought there was a lead. Someone suggested they bring an attorney, but the Routiers believed like, oh, we're not guilty, so we don't need an attorney. Not true. Not true. Don't let anyone tell you that. Get an attorney if you're being questioned. OK, just just for fun. Just try it. Just just for fun. So they went in eagerly without reservations, thinking they were going to be told like there was somebody, you know, they found culpable or a suspect at least.

OK, but when I got to the station, investigators separated them, took Darren to the house house asked him to walk them through the night of the murders and after he did they said the evidence supported his story completely but they did not feel the same way about darley 12 days after the brutal attack they arrested her for the murder of her two sons darren's reaction was gut-wrenching. His mom said he felt like the boys died again, like when they arrested his wife. Yeah, your whole family's over twice. Just taking, yeah, it's like a whole nother blow. Yeah, exactly. Darren said at the police station he saw the investigators jump up and high-five each other in celebration when they arrested Darlie. Ooh, not tasteful.

And he was sick to his stomach. So not tasteful. He told police, you guys have the wrong wrong person you guys are making a big mistake but they were on this route and they stuck with it so the story made national news people had these opinions they'd already turned on darley after the birthday party at the gravesite but there was more fuel in the fire against her only a year earlier susan smith i don't know if you know that name but she notoriously murdered two of her children by driving her car into a lake while they were strapped inside and this had just happened a year earlier and so this was like

people were primed to believe like a grieving mother. Hmm. Are you sure? Or did you kill your children? You know, because the story had just taken the media by storm. And the Susan Smith story, which I have not covered, but I will definitely one day. She told police a black man had hijacked her car and kidnapped the kids. And she went on a week. Fucking great. And she went on a week long kind of wo went on a week-long kind of woe is

me tour publicity tour asking for her children back and then she outright admitted eventually that she drove her car into a lake and left them in the car um and guess why because she thought they were in the way of her new relationship with a man. Classy. So, you know, it happens. Fucked up, but it happens. And so people thought, well, maybe this is that same story all over again. And after nine days of a countywide search and public appeals to bring home Susan's children, she finally admitted it was her. And Time magazine put Susan's face on the cover, uh, with the headline, how could she do it?

And so now America was primed to believe like a mother could rudely kill her children and lie about it on national TV. And this is kind of where people's heads were at. Um, so just, just before I get confused, was that actually Susan or? Oh, I'm sorry. That was Susan's. Sorry. That was Susan's case.

Um, from a year before Darley. I didn't know. So that was Susan's case before Darlie. And so people when Darlie went on the news and saying, oh, man, I'm so you know, my kids have been killed. People were like, hmm. Got it. I don't know if you actually mix up the names. No, sorry. Yeah. No, they were primed to be suspicious of Darlie. Got it. Pretty immediately. Darren Routier even told interviewers that the police brought up susan he said police told him she just snapped she's another susan smith like they literally just looked at her and said she's susan smith 2.0 um and so darley's trial as you can imagine was very polarizing people picketed with free darley signs outside. Others demanded the death penalty. And she was

only charged with Damon's murder and the murder of a child under six qualified for capital punishment in Texas. So prosecution felt it was the only necessary charge. But on top of that, it wouldn't qualify for double jeopardy because they could if they failed, they could try her again for her other son's murder because it would be a different crime technically. failed they could try her again for her other son's murder uh because it would be a different crime technically so they just charge her which seems a little fishy to me but whatever um they just charge her for the murder of her one son so that if that didn't go they could charge her for the murder of her second son i get it but like it's a little kind of a loophole so the prosecution had no confession no motive and no solid physical evidence proving Darlie killed her sons.

But they aim to cast doubt on her story about the intruder. Doctors testified that Darlie's wounds were self-inflicted. However, the extent of the bruising and the defensive nature of the wounds made that difficult to believe. the wounds made that difficult to believe. Some have called the wounds superficial, and that is what the jury was told. But again, like it came out that it was really not superficial. One went to the bone. One almost sliced her carotid artery. She had to have surgery. You can look up the pictures. They're pretty brutal. Next, prosecution claimed there was no evidence anyone entered or exited the house through the window with the cut screen. And they looked at the mulch and the dust and said there's no way there's no footprints according to them the dust on the windowsill was undisturbed as was the mulch in the flower bed outside the window but in a later documentary Darren demonstrated that the window is so low

to the ground that the intruder could have just stepped in and out over the windowsill without stepping on it. Like it's such a low to the ground window. You wouldn't need to like hoist yourself onto the sill. Right. You could just step over it. There's no disturbing needed. Yeah. You don't need to disturb the dust. Exactly. He also showed cameras that the flower bed was seven feet away from the window. So just the fact that there was no footprints in the flower bed. Well, it was seven feet away. Why would they need to be footprints in the flowerbed to prove someone climbed in the window? It didn't make sense. The intruder would have only had to step on concrete to enter and exit the window. In other words, they wouldn't have left the footprints. So prosecutors also

brought up a seemingly disturbing note from the 911 call Darlie made, which I mentioned got a lot of shade and a lot of heat. In the call, Darlie told the operator she picked up the attacker's knife and was worried that perhaps she had disturbed any fingerprint evidence that might have been on the handle and could have caught the killer. odd because people said it was really bizarre that somebody on the phone with their children actively dying in front of them is saying you know um oh no i picked up the knife like is that going to ruin the evidence for you know they said like that's just not a normal reaction um however uh you know the thought was common sense is no mother would be focusing on like, oh, should I have left fingerprints on the knife when your child is dying in front of you? But again, the context was missing because in the 911 call, Darlie was crying on the phone about the attacker and told the operator about the knife she found. And the operator exclaimed, there's a knife. Don't touch anything.

And Darlie sobbed. I already touched it and picked it up. don't touch anything and darlie sobbed i already touched it and picked it up and then she kind of realized what the person was implying and she started crying about ruining potential evidence so it wasn't like she just like popped into her head and said oh no i ruined the evidence it was like no no she was instructed and she realized she had done something wrong and it upset her in the moment that makes sense yeah i think so and then there was a broken her in the moment. That makes sense. Yeah, I think so. And then there was a broken glass in the kitchen. Darlie said she had heard a sound like glass breaking. But again, the blood was found under the glass. Investigators said the blood should have been on top if she had

like bled on it as she was running after, you know, the attacker. But experts weighed in that unfortunately, the crime scene was extremely contaminated before the investigation even began because Damon was still alive. And, you know, if in a scenario where victims need medical treatment on scene, evidence just has to be displaced because priority number one is treating the victims. It's like, you know, we don't have time to figure out what to touch and what not to touch if we're trying to save someone's life. So the scene was compromised long before investigators even got there. there's no way to say like it wasn't even her fault no or we don't know there's just no way to know if if it was disturbed but there is a chance that it was disturbed you know and it was not her doing um but it was originally of course like pitched as there's no way this could have happened unless she planted it but that's obviously not the case so the defense argued that you know the glass could

have shifted in the chaos of the medical the emt's arriving on scene and then there were the bloody prints in the house that didn't match darley or anyone else living in the house and presumably not babs either so they never found a match for those prints never found a fucking match for the bloody fingerprints but they appeared to be an adult's prints okay on to the knife if darley's story is true the murderer used his own knife to cut the screen and enter their house but then grabbed a kitchen knife from inside to attack the rootiers which seems odd he already he would have just used his own knife. You'd think so.

So investigators found fibers on the kitchen knife that they said linked to the window screen. So they believed that a knife in the block had been used to cut the window screen. So someone inside went outside to cut it. And did the cut, yeah. Someone inside went outside to cut it. And did the cut, yeah. However, turns out the fibers that appeared to be from the window screen actually also identically matched the brush that investigators used to dust for fingerprints. And these are like microscopic fragments. And they had dusted the knives for fingerprints, so it could very well have been their own brush.

The fibers from the brush, not from the screen. And actually, like a later attorney, Darlie's new attorney, said he tested, I think, seven knives that had been brushed for fingerprints. And four of them had those exact same fibers on them from the brushes. four of them had those exact same fibers on them from the brushes. So there's a very good chance that that was not from the screen and that it was from just the evidence collection. So there was no blood evidence supporting that Darlie was stabbed on the couch. Her blood was found near the kitchen sink, and that is where investigators pitched that she had stabbed herself over the kitchen sink

to, like, inflict her own injuries and there was also blood spatter on the back of her shirt which matched the boys and seemed to suggest it got there as she raised the knife above her head during the murders wow like a full-on like the movie psycho in the shower yes yes horrifying but the defense argued that the boy's blood could have ended up on her shirt at any point after the attack as she tried to save them you know if she's on the floor if she's trying to hold them you know yeah darren also testified that darley went back and forth between the kitchen and the living room to get wet towels as an attempt to just like help the boys and it's not clear why she like wet the towels but also she

was in shock you know and so it's like who knows why she wet the towels she maybe was just thinking like i'll clean up their face and who knows who knows what she's thinking but she wet the towels and that could have been where the blood came from in the sink maybe from walking back and forth and the bloody towels found throughout the scene did support that so it was pretty clear that she had wet several towels and it could very well explain why there was blood in the sink so darren and darley left bloody barefoot footprints in the house but there was a bloody boot print in the garage and one of the officers on scene was advised that it was likely left by an officer who tracked in blood.

But that was never checked. Nobody. They just said, oh, it was probably just a police officer walking through and accidentally. They never even checked? No. No. Okay. Well.

Fucking sucks. No comment. So finally, a key piece of evidence was a sock, which I didn't even hear about in the initial telling of this story. Oh, really? Okay. I think maybe because it was like, the video was probably like five, 10 years ago, maybe. So maybe it just hadn't been released yet. Sure.

Because it is a more recent update. But a key piece of evidence was a sock from the house found in an alley down the road near a sewer, like a sewer entry. How'd they even find that? Yeah. yeah well and it took them a while but when they were like just looking you know in the neighborhood they found this sock and when they tested it the blood on the sock matched damon and devon it was found near a storm drain and people speculated the murderer tried to throw it in the drain as he escaped and the sock is so interesting because it just throws a huge wrench into the story. Yeah, it's like, were these clothes taken?

And why was that thrown in the sewer but nothing else? And did someone leave and then come back? Right, right. The timeline doesn't work if it is Darley. Because just to show you how the timeline just does not work. So another important thing is that the sock had none of Darlie's blood on it. It only had the boy's blood on it. OK. And she was bleeding heavily from her arm and hand.

So it would have been difficult to avoid bleeding on the sock when she carried it down the street. If she somehow planted this like 75 yards away or whatever sure and it also screwed with the timeline because experts testified that damon could only have survived his injuries for roughly nine minutes darley's 911 call lasted six minutes and authorities arrived within a minute of the call ending so that means darley would have had only two minutes or less to finish stabbing her sons, go to the garage, cut the window,

run out the back gate, 75 yards down the alley, barefoot in just a t-shirt, drop the sock without getting any blood on it, run 75 yards back, which is by the way, a total of one and a half football fields of running. Then cut her throat and her arm at the sink,

clean up most of her own blood, stage the glass and knife, wake up Darren, and finally call 911. It just is so implausible that this would have occurred this way. Unless the sock was able to, like, travel on its own, like a random dog in the house ran with it in its mouth or something like yeah and they don't have pets they don't know no no not that i know of and and part of the issue too is like if it was by a storm drain and someone was disposing of evidence who knows what else is down that storm drain they never checked you know it could have been they

could have dumped other stuff down the storm drain and the sock just didn't go all right. Wouldn't it? Wouldn't they also want to that? I feel like that's like a weird accidental. I know this isn't how it would go, but in my mind, it feels like something like, oh, it got stuck on one of the investigators and then it fell off when he was walking back to his car and then the rain washed it away. fell off when he was walking back to his car and then the rain washed it away like because i can't imagine if you're gonna throw things away to get rid of evidence i would think there's several other things beyond a random sock that would have been like vital pieces of evidence you could have gotten rid of no well i mean like the knife and everything yeah that is true because the knife was left at the scene which is when they have like tried to throw i would have tried to throw my the fucking weapon away if i was trying

to get rid of evidence not a random piece of clothing it's a fair point it's a fair point and like we don't know maybe there was other evidence that they did throw down the storm drain and only the sock you know got stuck and didn't make it down um but there is more about the sock uh okay okay that i've heard which is just a theory and there's no proof substantiating this but basically one theory is that perhaps it was used to chloroform uh darley and perhaps that is why she did not wake up when the injuries were inflicted perhaps this was a sexually motivated crime perhaps they looked in and saw darlie sleeping on the sofa didn't realize the kids were on the ground until they broke in um perhaps they put chloroform on the sock put it on her face um after killing

the kids had to dispose of the sock you know it's just a theory some people say well you would have smelled the chloroform there would have been a burn on her mouth some people say no chloroform has a really short half-life you would not have smelled it so you know i don't know um but that is just one thing that i thought was a little intriguing yeah definitely intriguing definitely intriguing but the major question remained if darlie't do it, who would break into a house at random to stab three people with no apparent motive? And Darley's defense claims it was most likely a burglary gone wrong because the night of the attack, neither of the Routier's cars were in their normal parking spot in the driveway. So it appeared as if no one was home. was home. About a week before the murders, a neighbor actually saw someone in a black car parked outside the Routier's home staring at the house. And when she approached the car, they sped off before she could talk to them. Perhaps someone was casing the house for a future robbery. And this was a very tight knit neighborhood where people noticed unusual

behavior, new people. The neighbor then saw the car again at 1 p.m. on the day of the murders and even made an official police report. There is no evidence that the police followed up on the report or considered it as a lead in the murder case. They just said, oh, must be a weird coincidence. Anyway, just let it be. Darren admitted he was so desperate to get out of debt that he actually had considered hiring someone to stage a break-in and steal valuables from their house so that he could make an insurance claim. Holy shit. Okay. That's a bombshell. He said it was on his mind. He brought it up in conversation around several people, but decided not to go through with it. Brought it up with several people. Mistake number one, my friend. Jesus Christ. Big mistake. And so he decided not to go through with it, allegedly, but it could be possible that he set it up and it went terribly wrong.

He said originally it was supposed to be while they were on vacation. Maybe whoever got the idea in their head saw that the cars weren't in the driveway, thought, oh, they're on vacation. I'll do this burglary. I have no idea. Ed saw that the cars weren't in the driveway, thought, oh, they're on vacation. I'll do this burglary. I have no idea. But as for motive, there was speculation that Darlie wanted to collect the boy's life insurance, but their life insurance was only a few thousand dollars and the funeral alone cost much more. So the money went to the funerals and Darren's life insurance policy was nearly eight hundred thousand dollars. And he wasn't attacked at all.

He wasn't harmed in the slightest. So it doesn't make sense that she would kill her own kids and not her husband in that case. Ultimately, the prosecution aimed to portray Darlie as a bitter woman trapped in debt and an unhappy marriage who didn't want to be a mother anymore. Despite the 911 call, the descriptions of her nurses as being terrified, she was described to the jury as strangely calm on the night of the murders, which I'm like probably shocked, but OK. And they said she didn't act the way a mother should when her children are murdered, which I would love to see you act that out, Mr. Policeman. OK, fuck you. They said she didn't try to save her sons, even though like she just saw blood and air coming out of her son's lungs when her husband tried to give CPR.

So, okay. Witnesses were called to discuss the fact that Darlie—this is going to piss you off, too—discuss the fact that Darlie had breast implants and blonde, bleached hair and didn't go to church a lot with her children. Who said this uh witnesses on the stand were brought the uh the prosecution and those were the thing those were the damning things they could say about yeah yeah it was basically like we said character assassination they were like look at her she went clubbing on mother's day she's like yeah with friends like mom friends i'm fucking go clubbing on Mother's Day if I had children. Jesus Christ.

It's crazy. The prosecution even showed the jury the video of Devin's birthday party at the grave. And they told the jury, you see, this is not the picture of a grieving mother. But here's where I tell you the context of that video clip, which I did not learn until recently. And apparently earlier that day before this kind of birthday party, which the way was not darlie's idea actually like it was someone else's idea entirely i think her sister's and her sister also brought the silly string so it was not like her idea um but this part never aired earlier that day darlie and her family had a somber i think it was a two-hour prayer vigil at the side of the graves

where she was just completely falling apart in pieces like spent two hours in full grief and uh okay like you shouldn't have any tears left right that part was never shown so it looked like she just showed up and was like we birthday party silly string but like there were hours before that where she was just sitting and grieving and and falling to pieces and that part was never shown um and indeed the silly string clip ended up being the most damning piece of evidence in the whole case um because darlie's mother said they ended up deliberating on the silly string silly string is not a lethal weapon but they asked to what the jury asked to watch that video 11 times and it ultimately 11 times and it ultimately kind of sealed the fate of of darley on february 1st 1997 darley was found

guilty and sentenced to death by lethal injection um because her son was younger than six and in the state of texas that is a felony capital punishment felony um juror one juror named charles sanford by the way the jurors some of these interviews are so fucking infuriating like one woman is like she had this blonde hair and big boobs and wore tight clothes and it's like okay you fucking woman i can't even woman like fuck off i feel like my brain pisses me off flat lines at the thought of having to deal with someone like that insanity i don't even have the words because i i i would have to dumb them down even if she was guilty like that's fucking irrelevant you know like it's still relevant yeah no matter what relevant so one juror charles sanford said the jury watched the birthday

party video 11 times during deliberation and only later did he see the footage of the prayer service and he actually said had we been shown this other tape so that we'd been able to see the whole picture of what happened that day i believe i would not have voted to convict Mrs. Routier. So like he literally said, if I'd seen that, I don't think I would have, you know, pegged her as guilty. So there are those believe that perhaps Darren himself was the murderer, or maybe he at least knows more than he's letting on, especially with the burglary schemes he had considered. he's letting on, especially with the burglary schemes he had considered. In a 2002 issue of Texas Monthly, reporter Skip Hollinsworth wrote, when I told Darren that the complete truth might help get his wife a new trial, he insisted that he wanted to do what he could for Darlie,

quote, but I don't want to end up with some kind of bullshit charges brought against me either. I don't want to help her at the expense of my life. And the thought there reading between the lines is like, maybe he does know something that could get him in a lot of trouble and he doesn't even want to go there and risk going to prison himself. So Darren and Darlie eventually divorced in 2011, which Darren said was a mutually painful decision. And he ended up raising their youngest son, Drake, in a new home after the bank foreclosed on their house during the trial and he routinely took drake to visit darley in prison and believe it or not as if things can't get worse as a child drake was diagnosed with cancer but has since recovered jesus christ okay i'm glad he's okay now one

thing after another and fortunately according to dar, he has had a mostly normal and happy childhood against all odds, which is great. Against all odds. Oh, my God. Yeah. The case remains obviously extremely polarizing. People are either staunchly for Darlie or against her. It's hard for people to stay on the fence about this one. Darlie and her defense team have filed appeals over the years, but she remains in prison on death row.

And as and as of as of 2023 she continues to maintain her innocence all along her family and darren have stood by her side and are positive that darlie is innocent and that somewhere there's a man who's gotten away with an unimaginable crime and that's the story of darlie root. That's a good reason to drink. Also, my dad is downstairs, so I... Okay, you're fine. Have fun with your father, and thank you for really just finding a way to

emotionally wreck all of us and then bail. Yeah, welcome. You're like a common straight man. That's what they say about me. That's my claim to fame. And? That's why we drink