And That's Why We Drink - E362 An Identi-Tea Crisis and Wobbly Mountain

Episode Date: January 14, 2024

It's episode 362 and our guts have left the building because we're going back on tour! But don't worry, we'll make an appointment with Dr. Leona to fix us. This week Em brings us to Vermont for the mystery of the Bennington Triangle, its multiple missing persons cases, and the wild theories behind them. Then Christine covers the terrifying case of Harvey Glatman aka the Glamour Girl Slayer aka the Lonely Hearts Killer and the woman who stopped him. And are we writing our needlepoint goodbye letters?...and that's why we drink!We are back on tour! Don't miss out on the very last run of our On the Rocks live show. Get your tickets at andthatswhywedrink.com/live

it's and that's why we drink and for us this is the first episode of 2024 maybe not for your ears but for our mouths and uh new year new us just, just kidding, worse us. Well, I guess new, but it'll just be worse. New and not improved. New and more disappointing than ever. Side note, Em, when you tested your mic, you talked normal. And then when we started the episode, you started shouting. So it is pretty damn loud. I don't know if I think you're blowing out the audio levels, which again, new and the same. Wow, that's so much better. Okay.

Is it better? Okay. Well, M apparently had to lower their volume to almost zero to get it to be like listenable. So I hope it actually works for you folks. We're still how many? This is like our seven. We're almost seven years in here and we're still just not able to fucking do a podcast seven years in i'm just amazed that i'm still so fucking loud i really well that part doesn't surprise me but the rest may be a little bit i thought we

would have learned um okay well trying that again happy 2024 christine yes same to you my friend how are you i i apparently i'm louder than ever so i'm doing good uh we have to be on a stage in like a casual 10 days nine days actually cool um my gut is non-existent she has left the building vacated the premises yeah she's carpet bagged her way up to the north i i truly if i think long enough about it i will throw up so i know i actually you're making me really nauseated and um i'd like you to stop speaking of nauseated you seem a little there i've been told that i really need to ask you why you drink and it sounded so stressful i'm just you know when you're as Em calls it what a slight minty beat yeah yeah um now I'm like on the verge of crying like what is wrong with me oh my god I'm like having

one of those weeks where I'm just like questioning my entire you know maybe not identity but like self-worth and um oh shit yeah yeah well so, so I lost my wallet again. Girl, well. See, even your own wallet doesn't want you to know who you are. I know. It's shaking your idea away. Yeah. Just vanished. Had a little men-to-be because I just was like, why am I like this?

And this was probably the fifth time in the last few months. No, in the last year. It was like the fifth time of 2023 that I like fully lost something important like I had just gotten a brand new license because I had lost the one before that and then I had gotten a new passport because I lost the one before that so it was like probably the fifth time I've lost something like incredibly important um in that just in that year and I had a slight like meltdown and was like why am I like I was on the floor of my car like looking for my wallet um and I had a slight and everyone in my family was very

kind to me about it like you know just very reassuring but I was like how can I was like how can you live with someone like this like I just had a full-on like crisis and my mom walks in the side door to like uh help with leona and i said i was just like in tears which is rare now that i'm on this high dose of zoloft and she said what happened and i said i lost my wallet again and she said no you didn't and i said what's wrong with me and she said adhd and i went yeah what and she was like well of course and I was like I feel like it's that gaslighting thing parents do I love you mom but like I feel like growing up I was always given the messaging like ADHD is not real you know it's just a thing people say when their kids are a little woohoo you know like all over the piper you know and i feel like that was the messaging i got from

like most of the adults in my life and so when she said that i was like what like coming from like i would never have even brought up the subject in front of my mother and then she just like spits it out and is like well duh and i was like am i like anyway i just feel really um on i just don't feel good and also um my tiktok got hacked by this guy in iraq in baghdad and he has been bullying me all week okay all week all week and then he sends his friends to bully me and they like yes he's like demanding 850 dollars for my account and then he said oh my friend is gonna reach out to you my friend it's like probably him on another fucking account okay and then his friend reaches out and his name is spy okay okay now and so i was just really frustrated because like i don't really care about you know social media but i'm like I had some fun videos I wanted to post of Leona.

And I had some fun ideas. My sister and I like did our annual cookie baking thing where we make like a video of our worst cookie. Like and he deleted everybody I was following, which is like thousands of people. He deleted all my videos, all my content, went through my messages, messaged you. And like random people was like sexting people. I was just like it felt so so and then i lost my wallet so i'm like everybody just take my identity i guess i don't have it anymore it's not right right apparently oh and so like this is how bad things have gotten this week um i'm drinking herbal tea i don't think i've ever drank herbal tea in my life for fun yeah because i just need

to like calm the fuck down okay and so i'm drinking it out of my chip coffee mug which oh my god i have not really gotten to show off yet and i feel bad because um i love that like coffee coffee i know and that's what it's usually for right like it's always my go-to coffee mug obviously but today i was like chip don't even say anything i'm putting peppermint in you relax okay and so it's covered in so it's from disgruntled pelican on um on twitter is their username uh slash uh uh cry like kermit i think spelled like um jenna marvel's dog relatable um but so this mug and i i've like never really given a shout out and i forgot who sent it so they finally tweeted and megan our social media person showed me and i was like okay good i can finally give it a shout out and with the proper recognition

but it is literally like a collage of chip coffee on a mug that's amazing there's one of him in a tiara i just i don't know if they made it if they bought it but it's just my favorite thing but the fact that i'm drinking peppermint tea having a menti bee with chip coffee it's time lost your identity i lost my identity in a cumberland farms gas station that part doesn't rhyme but um my this is the part that i promised my mother-in-law. She probably is like, doesn't mean she wants it. But I promised her that I would give her a little shout out because she drove straight to that. It was in Connecticut. Thank God.

She drove straight to that Cumberland Farms and got my wallet. Oh, good. Has shipped it to me. I found out it was there this morning. She went there immediately and has already shipped it to me. Well, a wallet is also so much scarier than just your driver's license. It's like, I mean, that's everything. Everything but my social security card because I finally took that out after everyone bitched at me.

Because that's still glued to the bottom of a bar floor somewhere. Okay. I like how I say, I took that out. It's like, no, I dropped it and it got stuck to a sticky floor. Yeah. And, you know, I was thinking about why I knew it was in that Cumberland Farms because I remember being in the in the stall with Leona after changing her diaper and like I had to pee and she goes, hee hee, which is what she says before she does something like

not good. Right. I know it's it's hilarious until it's not until it takes place in a parking lot. And then you're like, oh, OK. So she goes, hee hee. And I was like, I'm my pants are down. I'm peeing in a public place. And so she goes, hee hee.

And like tries to run under the stall door. And so I was like, ah. And so I pan it, you know. And so that's where I left it on top of the toilet paper thing. where I left it on top of the toilet paper thing um anyway so it's just been one of those weeks um where I've just been like trying my best and you know we're all sick Leonis it's just everything it seems to be chaotic and then every time I think about our tour coming up I'm like that's funny um so anyway I just blocked out the last 10 minutes but uh how are you today um i am okay i i really my only stress left is this is the tour i'm trying to put a good spin on it it's not totally working i am very very excited like in a how lucky am i that this is

my career kind of way it's it's it's a hard thing to explain to people because it like we don't want to sound like we're not grateful or don't want to do it like we beg for these cities like we want to do it it's just when it happens it's so petrifying i just i i just and also all my stupid health stuff i just don't know like i just have the additional anxiety of like, I have some sort of undiagnosed fainting goat syndrome where it feels like I'm just passing out for no reason and maybe it's anxiety-linked.

And if it's anxiety-linked, then I'm definitely more likely to do it on stage. Right, then it's just like building on itself, right? Yeah, so I'm just very nervous about the outcome. I know within 10 minutes of being on stage i'm gonna be having the best time of my life that's the thing is like we immediately the adrenaline kind of kicks in and you're like oh i know how to do this and i feel total muscle memory like this is where i like we really don't give our like audience enough of a shout out but like

every audience we've ever had has been so kind and wonderful. And like if one of us were to have like an anxiety attack on stage, like with a spotlight on us. Yeah. Everyone would be so like I have no doubt that people would be so kind. Part of me wants to like somehow trigger one for you. I can do it for myself if you want. Yeah, that'd be better. Because like we might get more Patreon subscribers.

I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. But yeah, you know what I was just thinking about too, Em, is like my Crohn's, which is very much also anxiety related or just like. Yeah. Oh, I feel like such a piece of shit complaining to you when you literally have Crohn's. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I don't.

No, no, no. I'm just saying, you know, it's like a similar concept where it's like, well, if you're not well, it like your body gets inflamed or whatever and freaks out. And it's like a similar concept where it's like, well, if you're not well, your body gets inflamed or whatever and freaks out. And it's like same idea. Of course, anxiety does not help the situation. And Em has always said to me, if you ever have to just get up and run to the bathroom, do not fucking worry. Just do it. And I've always been like, oh, yeah, totally.

That'll never happen. And then when we were recording last week, I was like, bye, I'm going to peace out or whatever that was. And I was like, and that's literally never happened to me where I'm like, okay, I'm really not well. And so I'm like, if that now I'm like, oh, my God, that does happen, I guess. So if it does happen, basically, I'm saying there's a chance for either one of us to just drop. Yeah. Okay. And we're sick. We're sickly. of us to just drop yeah okay we're old we're sick we're sickly it's like we're two old crusty dogs walking out of the stage and they're always shocked when we're still around like every holiday they're like wow they made the christmas card they must be hanging on when i sleep everyone when i sleep everyone's like are they breathing are you i know i know like are you sure they're okay under the nose make sure no if something, it's so wild because I was trying to explain it to my therapist. God bless her. I don't know if she understands the dynamic entirely because my anxiety is so unfounded

where like, I mean, like it is justified in some ways, but also the calling me out of being like, well, if it were to happen, what would go wrong after that? And like, honestly, nothing would go wrong because our audience is understanding, you're understanding, like we would figure it out, it would be handled, whatever. But then she even said like,

what about your co-host? Do you think your co-host would care? And I was like, I literally know my co-host wouldn't care. Like she's a huge bitch. No, but like you would not care. Like I am in such good hands., but like you would not care. Like I am in such good hands.

And so like all my fears. I would care like very much about you, but not about like. Yeah. Like leaving stage. Right, right, right. And same thing for me. It's just so wild that I still have all these anxieties, even though I must have some sort of linked like inner trauma about like thinking I'm going to get in trouble or something. I don't know,

but it's. Yeah. I mean, honestly, I've, I've, I've delved into a few things regarding my like bizarre aversion to the phone and I've linked it to some very bizarre specific things that have been like,

Oh, you know, so maybe that is something to like eventually, um, explore. Jordan, are you listening? Write that down. Are you?

Because does Jordan listen? I don't know. I really hope to God not. I really don't. My therapist once told me who, by the way, she ghosted me and I think she hated me, but that's probably anyway. So I need a new one. Anybody?

Anybody? Okay. So Jordan, are you listening? Can I be, can I work with you? Can I also Jordan? I mean, Jordan follows me on TikTok, which terrifies me. I don't know. I don't know if she follows me, but we found each other on TikTok. Oh, that's right. I was like, Em, how do you find a good therapist? You're like on TikTok. And I was like, well, cool. Let's see if Northern Kentucky therapists, any of them stand out on TikTok? We'll find out. Well, I, yeah, I'm doing, I think, a lot better than you are.

I have not had a total mental breakdown yet. I have cried a lot, but it hasn't been because of a mental breakdown. It's been like just getting overwhelmed and then having to go take a depression nap. And then I'm fine. Yeah. Okay. Well, that's good. I mean, I'm glad you at least know how to recover for your, for your own sake. How was your Christmas? What did you, I know this is like a

while ago now for listeners, but for me, what did you get for Christmas? What was one of your favorite gifts? Oh, well, thank you for asking. It was really lovely. We did the first, this is actually this 2023 was the first time in my life i've done like a christmas morning like with presents under the tree because in europe or at least in germany you celebrate on the 24th and so um what we did was like really ideal we went to my mom's house for christmas eve and did like our old school like family tradition and she plays this weird children's choir from Germany on my sister's Hello Kitty boombox. And my mom and my sister cry inexplicably.

And then we all like march into the room. It's like very bizarre now that I say it out loud. But it does sound, that sounds like something you tell Jordan, you know? Jordan, help. Jordan, I don't even have a TikTok for you to follow. And I don't have a Twitter because that also got taken away. So you know what? I don't know. I don't know how I'm ever going to find help, mental health help. Okay. But yeah, so we

did that on Christmas Eve, which was fun because Leona got to like run around. We had, you know, wine. We had built-in babysitters, like six adults running around um so it was great and then we went home got to sleep till leona slept till past 9 a.m like it's like she's a teenager i love it christmas day i was like fuck yeah so we got to sleep in unfortunately she was sick and she was like not interested in the presents until we slowly started being like what do you think's in this one but then every time she opened one she was like i just want to play with this right and which i understand and i'm like i appreciate that you're like taking the time because i imagine in the next couple years it'll just be like rip everything open right yeah but it was really fun to like get

give her gifts this year that were like that she could actually understand and appreciate that they were like presents. Um, and you know, I, I'm trying to figure out how the good old aunt to say, Inc. They will work next year. We were lucky to kind of not have to deal with that this year.

Um, maybe we'll do a lean into Krampus. No clue. We'll figure it out. But, uh, yeah, so it was really nice. And,

um, blaze got me some really lovely presents and he bought me a freaking dice and air wrap and i was like hello that was not that was nice so that's your favorite christmas gift that was like my big big gift right like i was like whoa i didn't expect that um i got him a composter anyway um but yeah it was very nice and i was like and he goes do you want one of these and i was like i think every like human female on tiktok yeah who has long hair and you know wants one of these but i was like i sorry i never ever would have bought for myself but i've always just like watched the little tutorials so i felt very um that was like a that was a very big surprise i

was very um excited about that and then the rest was just cute little stuff. He got me a garlic chopper that looks like a vampire. Like just silly fun stuff that's like, I don't know, that just makes us think of each other. So it was really special. And we had a good time. And then yesterday was his birthday and we had a great time. And on New Year's Eve, we were in a quality in Canton, Ohio or Youngstown, Ohio. So, you know, we can't celebrate it all, but we try our best. So how was your Christmas, Em? It was good. This was the first Christmas where a majority of people I did not get gifts for and that itself was a gift. Yeah, indeed. Yeah yeah it sounds like it i i feel like i got a lot of clothes this year i got uh my mom got me and allison like play tickets like play season tickets um uh i got a tie that i wanted like which i never wear ties i just wanted it that's gonna say put it on it has a it has deloreans all over it okay that's very fun um yeah it was it was pretty nice it was

low-key um i'm exchanging more gifts tonight my friend cole who you know uh you might know as hot cole because that's usually how i reference him to people because he's weirdly good looking yeah he like freakishly so like yeah he he's a very handsome he's my ex-boyfriend also so like yeah no big deal m m dumped him i i did dump him which like point of pride in some in some spaces i feel like that's my only power move i have left to play i'm like like well i dumped a hot guy so um him and i are having a sleepover tonight so you know the romance the romance isn't over yet everybody still alive i think we're i think we're exchanging gifts we're going out to dinner later we when we were dating every single date was at Olive Garden because when you're 14 Olive Garden is like the pinnacle the pinnacle of class indeed and so apparently we're actually reliving our dates and we're going to Olive Garden tonight and then we're coming back to my house to watch tv my god maybe he's gonna propose are you gonna put out this is

gonna be so fun for me you know he is even hotter than he was when we were dating. So that actually, so he might win that power play because like you dumped him, but now he's even hotter. So like, actually, I'm sorry to say that might not be your win anymore. I mean, I might give him a little snuggle, I think, you know, we'll see where the night takes us. But I think snuggling is about as far as it'll get. That's pretty far. It's pretty far. I mean, I'm a pretty, pretty lucky little person to be able to do that. You sure are.

But I mean, if there's such a thing as being even gayer than me, it's him. So I think that we're- Oh yeah, folks, that's why the joke is fun. Sorry. Oh yeah, we're both queer. To clarify, neither of them are even remotely interested in the other one in that way so no no no now it's just it's platonic snuggles you know you understand garlic bread on garlic bread on garlic bread he's gonna pour pasta fagioli all over me and you know

it might get a little crazy so wow um anyway that's that's my final christmas gift is getting to hang out all night with a handsome man unlimited breadsticks baby i i didn't mean to like weirdly just brag about him the whole time i was trying to say i'm i might be getting more gifts later because i think we're exchanging presents oh i can't wait to see what it is um and can i just throw one thing out before i forget which is uh just like a fun fact for you all um so alexander my brother as many of you may know as andy won christmas like won leona's christmas because he got her a little vet like a veterinarian kit and it has like a little puppy and like a little you know and like i want as a kid wanted to be a doctor or a vet and she

took that stethoscope and has not put it down since Christmas Eve. Blaze must be so proud. Oh, my God. Like, everyone in Blaze's family. His mom's a nurse. His brother's a PA. His brother's wife's a doctor. Like, everyone's in the medical field.

And she runs around with this stethoscope. And, like, I don't know where she comes up with this stuff. Probably TV. Okay. But she runs up and she goes, breathe in and out. And then she goes, breathe in and out. And like, and then she goes, you're all better. And she ran around and did that to like every pet, every human, every inanimate object.

And so I was just like, because that was me as a kid. I always had like a little, a little stethoscope, little shot. You know, who's about to get healed the fuck up next week is going to because we're all going to be together. Yes. Oh, my God. It's going to be Eva because Leona and Eva have a very interesting best friendship. And I think Eva, you're about to play doctor with Leona quite a lot. Oh, yeah. You're going to get a lot of checkups and she checks on people's tummies a lot, which is very sweet. So Eva get ready to breathe in and out. Yeah get ready. Practice. Which actually is Eva says yes fix my tummy.

It does weirdly feel better. I think it's probably just that you're like oh that's cute and you like forget about your many aches and pains for a moment but it does actually work. So yeah anyway so thank you Zandy and Leona literally has never really attached to a stuffed animal but she takes a stethoscope to bed every single night so you know what i'll

take it it's it's every jewish mother's dream i know right i'm like listen there's worse things to be yeah well okay we've literally talked for 26 minutes, 27 minutes. Well, you shouted for part of it, so. Okay. Perfect. Perfect. Okay. Sorry. Oh, yeah. Also, I have a never-ending sinus infection. The end.

Okay. You make me feel a little better about myself. So that's why I drink today. That's all I want to do. And are you drinking anything? I'm drinking a de-peppy. Yeah. I'm drinking a fucking herbal tea.

Oh, right. Yes. Yes. Yes. Okay. Sorry to yell. Wow. anything i'm drinking a deep epi yeah i'm drinking a fucking herbal tea oh right yes sorry sorry to yell i've just sometimes i get a little bit over overstimulated it's okay call leona and dr leona she'll help you breathe in breathe out my nervous system okay i've got my little story for you today, Christine, it is the mysterious case of the Bennington Triangle. Wow.

If I knew you were going to shout so much today, I would have spent a lot more time helping you fix your audio earlier. But you sound great. Oh, perfect. Yeah. Why do I know that? I think because it sounds a lot like Bridgewater Triangle. Perhaps.

It sounds a lot like Bermuda Triangle. Perhaps. Bennington Triangle. I was expecting another Pukwudgie moment. Pukwudgies, I'm telling you now, are not included in the Bennington Triangle. Yet. We can find one and bring them over and then start populating the area. They're an invasive species at that point.

And I don't really want to be complicit in that. They have no natural predator. So they're really going to take over like those koi fish or whatever, like those hedgehogs or something. So Bennington triangle, it is a mystery spot or a mystery triangle. We remember our shapes, rhombus.

The only math class I ever got an A in, believe it or not, it was geometry. So that was only math class i ever got an a in believe it or not was geometry so um that was the only class i ever got a d in that's what everyone says everyone's like geometry is and i for some reason i've been meaning to look into this does anybody know my brain like geometry i get it in a weird obviously i don't because i don't know what a rhombus is but you know in general when i learned it back in the day i was like i fucking get it and nobody else got it. And then when it came to algebra, I was like, what the fuck? I don't know.

So maybe there's some weird mind, like the way that my brain works. I don't know. You know who else is really good at geometry? Spider-Man. Really? Yep. It's how he defeated Doctor Strange. He used geometry.

He knew where to swing because he knew the angles of the mirror dimension. I think that you've told me this and I was like, wow, this is quite a heavy-handed way to say like stay in school kids he well the exact line from the movie was you know what's cooler than magic doctor strange i remember math oh my god oh it hurts if that's not on someone's math poster i don't know. It must be. So, Miss Geometry, you know what a triangle is? Sure do. And this mystery spot happens to be triangular in shape. It is in Vermont, and it is full of unexplained phenomenon. Ooh.

The name was coined in the 1990s, but the actual area is pretty undefined. But the epicenter of it all seems to be glastonbury mountain sounds she if you were if you were gonna have a mountain do you have an idea about what you would name it because i wonder where glastonbury comes from it has to be someone's last name it has to be or like it's named after the the original town in england or something i feel like they're either called like something from another country or someone's name. I would call it wobbly mountain because Leona's favorite game is where she

climbs up her little like nugget couch thing and says, I'm queen of wobbly mountain. So I would probably just call it that. Eva, get ready to play wobbly mountain. Yeah. Cause I'm tired of it. I'll tell you that much.

I'm fucking sick of it. Cause it requires me to stand up and pretend to like and then catch her oh my god it's so much physical exertion the second she's of just binging tv age i know right on a pond it's gonna be crazy what age can i put her on tiktok i'm kidding don't don't yell at me everyone i feel like i would just name a mount i know it's so selfish but i would just name it my last name like i would just want to i guess that's not selfish it's what everyone that's what all the men did back in the day might as well that's true or it would be something like fuck the patriarchy mountain like it would be like it'd have a purpose like it would have like i i would be sending a message i'd want a certain group of people to know that this is for the girls, the gays, and the fays.

Like, don't come over here. Gotcha. So anyway, the epicenter of this place is Glastonbury Mountain. And the communities nearby this mountain are the ones that are having the strange experiences, specifically the towns of Glastonbury and Bennington. Glastonbury was once a successful mining and logging town but get this people are terrible and they cut down literally all of the trees all of them and then they didn't have a reason to live in glastonbury anymore because there was no point as a logging town without trees the fucking lorax i mean get with the fucking program they apparently apparently shot the Lorax at point blank range.

Yeah, I guess so. So I guess, yeah, once the trees were all gone, they were like, well, I guess we just up and leave. And so now it's become by the 1930s, this abandoned logging town that is completely treeless. Right. It was truly abandoned. In 2020, the population in Glastonbury was nine oh and at one point it was only three and all three of the people were one family and they all held all of the local government roles because there's nobody else that's called nepotism that's called someone's

got to do it it's called useless nepotism because like what are you even doing with that power this is the type of story where this is i like to think this is the humble beginnings of mayor max it's like look it was a family of three i i had to like step up and like really contribute to the family when it was only us for the entire one of us had like a checkbook so we could balance the town's finances i guess yeah my mom became the secretary by accident i became mayor i don't know we were all just trying to make the pieces fit we all voted for each other i think so now a lot of glastonbury is abandoned but the other area that has a lot of experience or uh weird experiences is bennington which has like a more normal population it's like 16 000 um once the mountain

was abandoned the trees did grow back which i love that the second humans are gone for five seconds mother nature like comes right back yeah i remember during covid when people were like oh shit like suddenly all these uh species are flourishing like in the oceans and dolphins and the rivers yeah yeah like what happened it's like people just didn't fucking destroy the planet. People stopped messing with everything. It was within like two or three weeks of everyone going inside. Yeah, it was very quickly.

I remember that was like the only positive thing I could find on the news that week. It was truly like imagine if people just stopped doing what they do for a month because in three weeks dolphins were back. Imagine in a month what would happen. Oh, God. So, so again same kind of concept as soon as people weren't in the area it began to flourish and now this area um that once didn't have trees the trees grew back and now this space to keep it i guess protected sits within the green mountain national forest so she's back she went she was bare bones she became part of the forest like anyone can do it um fun fact the forest has eight individually designated wilderness areas eight designated wilderness okay which i don't even really know what that means in my mind a forest a fort like the designated areas are like the part with the trees part of it that's water

that's kind of it like it's maybe there's an area for camping i don't really know it i am so stupid if i ever were to like talk to a park ranger it would be so clear i mean i literally don't even go outside so like they would know very quickly that I am not the person to talk about their job with. If I was like, how's work? And they were like, you know how the forest can be. I'd be like, oh, yeah, I totally get it. The region inside the triangle, which, again, most of it is Bennington and Glastonbury, but there's other regions. The main square footage of

this triangle is linked to five mysterious disappearances from during the 40s and that's what makes it so uh such a strange creepy area um because all of these cold cases happened in this one specific region in the 40s all of them all from 1945 to 1950 in a five-year gap there were five still cold case missing what the fuck um the first disappearance uh was a 74 year old named middy rivers and he was a hunting guide and he was known to be like the survivalist he was very good at being outdoors he should have not gone missing compared to yeah that's when it's scary forest i was gonna say like if we went missing they'd be like wow she read the lorax one time and thought she could suddenly be like a survivalist but if somebody who actually knows what they're doing i watched it and

that was okay i have you beat i guess if i ever go missing in the forest just know that like first of all why was I in the forest? But second of all, the second I entered the forest, we should have known I wasn't coming out of there. You entered unwillingly, first of all. Unwillingly. By someone else's hand. The second I'm in the forest, if I ever go missing and someone, like, tracks my phone to the forest, just give up. I'm already dead.

Like, it's not. I'm not coming back. It's too late. So 74-year-old Mitty Rivers, a hunting guide, survivalist, outdoorsman, insert word here. He's leading a group of hunters below the mountain, directly below this mountain with a lot of strange phenomena. And of course, the area that they're walking through is a place called Hell Hollow. Oh, my God. Which like, imagine during Halloween, though, they must go nutso.

I hope so. Although maybe it's like one of those designated wilderness areas and they're like please don't put like fake spider webs. Yeah the real spider webs are fine enough. Yeah we leave that to the spiders. So he was guiding these other people but he split off just before lunch and was never seen again. What the fuck which like let's discuss this is this is a weird part that no one even mentioned in in sources that i looked at but i love that he's the survivalist outdoors guy hunting guide yeah he goes missing and the group of people he was guiding found their fucking way out without him how does that make sense maybe they just

retrace their steps back i don't know but it is maybe they just screamed until someone heard them that's what i would do i would ah just stand still and do one long note um i i i thought that was interesting though like oh the guy who knows what he's doing and he's been in these woods before i would love to hear their uh side of it because I wonder how long did they wait for him? You know, did they look for him? Did they just assume he got sick and left? Like, I wonder how long they waited. See, that's it's the human questions like that where it's like it's the beginning of a horror movie of like, how long do you wait in the woods for a random person?

Like, if it's getting dark, like, you go, do you risk it and leave? Yeah. Like, is it a prank? Like, yeah, that's hilarious. He's such a prankster,

that survivalist wilderness guy. I know it was 1945, but in today's world, I'd be like, the second I get back to wifi, this guy's getting a one star review. Oh yeah, yeah,

yeah. I'm yelping the shit out of this. I am never coming back to this forest again. You and would use up all our battery like tick talking the like escape of the forest like this guy i uh so anyway he goes he goes missing the other four people we never hear about them again but allegedly they get home and uh an initial search goes nowhere and even though the search goes nowhere and they're like well i guess he's just gone 300 people including like army soldiers all gather together and they're like no we have to find this man oh my god they look for him for another eight days and after

going through the entire forest extensively they only found an empty bullet casing that matched his gun. Goose cam. And that's all we know about the story is just the only thing they ever found. They never found a body. They never found blood. They never found footsteps. It was. And it's almost more. I mean, you would have thought they'd find something because he I feel like sometimes you hear stories of people going missing in the wilderness and you don't know their last known location.

But like he had a whole group of people who said, oh, this is where we were. He went that way. So it's not like, you know, he just vanished in this like mass forest. Like they know at least where he would have left the group. So that gets like, I have goose cam on my scalp. That is creeping me out. You are welcome. A year later,

we have another missing case where there's an 18-year-old girl named Paula and she goes missing after hiking on a trail near Glastonbury Mountain. Despite other hikers seeing her just ahead of them, like they remember her walking ahead of them, she disappeared when she got, them she disappeared when she got she like turned around a bend like turned around a corner

and when they got there she was already gone what the fuck she was totally by herself they saw her but they were within earshot if she had been attacked by a person or an animal or something they would have heard her so when she turned the corner and then when they followed and she was gone, she was just vanished. Oh, I don't like that. After what happened to, oh, I'm sorry, my handsome ex-boyfriend just texted me. My handsome ex-boyfriend. He's like, please stop talking about me.

He said, are we still on for seven? And then a heart. Oh my God, you got a heart emoji oh my god i'm gonna kiss him i'm just saying i'm a little cheeky maybe but yeah we'll see how it goes i'll let him make the first move you guys can just share one big fettuccine noodle we literally that's exactly what's gonna happen we might leave in the tramp but you'll see totally platonic way obviously no no it's uh maybe not i don't know we'll see i'm feeling kind of crazy once i have fettuccine in front of me anything's possible that's true that's a fair point um so uh so because of what happened to midi rivers only a year before and they had an original search party they had

another search party of like 300 people looking through the area and they couldn't find him when a year later someone else goes missing and she's an 18 year old girl people are like oh fuck this so they have a search party of over a thousand people they have multiple law enforcement departments they have the national guard bring out aircraft searches and they never found her that's terrifying do we know what was her name do we know her name was paula weldon paula that's terrible and just totally went missing that was in 1946 she was last seen wearing a bright red jacket so now much like every hotel in the world there's a lady in red out there in the woods but they never found her never found the bright red jacket nothing oh that is so weird the most

baffling disappearance comes on the three-year anniversary of paula's missing to the day to the day shut up three years after her disappearance we're now in 1949 and 68 year old james tefford or tefford uh he was heading home to Bennington after visiting family. And he was last seen by his friends who watched him get on the bus stop. And 14 other people who were on the bus with him say that he was there on the bus. And all of a sudden, out of nowhere, on the bus, mid-drive, James is fucking gone. Luggage still there. What of nowhere, on the bus, mid-drive, James is fucking gone. Luggage still there. What?

He disappears from the bus? Like, poof, goodbye. So was this, like, near the fort? Was it within the triangle? It was within the triangle. Ew, so you're not even safe, like... In a car on the road. In a moving vehicle.

Like, his luggage was still there, and then he had been working on something at his seat and that was still there oh my god what the fuck he just somehow vanished between the last stop and the stop to bennington which is one of the bigger areas for this type of phenomena nobody saw anything shady happen nobody saw him talking to someone who dragged him off the bus he never followed anyone off the bus he was just there and then he was not. He just completely evaporated. The fact that his stuff and what I imagine was a really beautiful needlepoint he was creating were all left behind.

Maybe I'm projecting. He was actually needlepointing his goodbye letter to everybody. Oh, sad. Yeah, like what in the world? That's baffling. Yeah, they could only say that truly he was there one minute ago

and now he's not there dude if i lived in that town i mean no wonder only three people live there but if i lived in that fucking town on the anniversary of any of these i'd be like i'm going out of state bye yeah see ya i i mean in his needlepoint i imagine if he had been uh needlepointing like now you see me now you don't and then as he disappeared like fell out of the air pattern to buy at the local needle point store especially in 1949 yeah exactly um but yeah just totally vanished off the off the bus so uh that was another case and then the fourth case was a year later where there was an eight-year-old named paul jepson no paul vanished from his family pickup truck no and the the story goes that he was fed to the pigs by his own parents what that's the fun little story we've got going

so like that that's the theory or something i think this i think through a game of telephone that's the story it became because i also saw another source that said that he disappeared when his parents were feeding the pigs oh i see so it just got telephoned very quickly telephoned into he was fed to the pigs kind of a fucked up twist um so is the theory that they killed him, I assume? That's like when people are trying to logically figure out where the fuck he went. They're thinking that he must have been killed and fed to pigs. Because a lot of bodies have been fed to pigs and no evidence comes up later. So there was a manhunt for him as well. At this point, I feel like the police are tired.

They're like, Jesus Christ, people just keep going away small rural area right like it's not like we're in some big metropolis like they're bringing in the national guard every year to find people i mean the national guard might as well just put it on their calendar like right every year we do a conference in these fucking woods oh for god's sake like what is going on also interesting to me that if they're if you're doing a thousand person manhunt none of those thousand also went missing i feel like that okay i had that same thought i was like did they do a roll call because like because what if there's several more people missing now and we just vanished because people could have thought oh they just irish goodbyed for the day, they're gone. I don't like that either.

The irony of going missing during a manhunt for somebody else so nobody's looking for you. Ooh, wait, that's a good book idea. Write that down. Or what if someone spots you, but you're not the eight-year-old kid, and so they just turn their head away and don't realize that they actually found you and you need help

and they just walk away. Eva, I've kind of lost the plot but write that down anyway okay okay so they have a manhunt no results for eight-year-old paul jepson they just know he went missing when he was last with his parents um but a bloodhound tracked paul's scent to a nearby crossroads where the trail ended so it's thought that he walked off the trail and into the woods and was just never found again some people suspect that his parents murdered him but there's no evidence of that it's just kind of a rumor now right um which so sad because imagine your fucking eight-year-old kid goes missing and is probably dead and now everyone's just like

and like you're just getting blamed for it yeah yeah terrible paul's dad said that paul was obsessed with the mountain and maybe just wandered off and that he was lured away by the mountains um and two weeks later is the final disappearance of a 53 year old woman named frida she disappeared on a hike even though she was also just as experienced as that midi rivers guy she was like a backwoods woman a survivalist all these things um and only a half mile into a casual hike which a half mile by the way like i mean i don't i don't walk a lot but a half mile is it's not it's not far into the woods yeah especially on Especially on like a casual hike, which I assume means on a trail that on a, on a flat trail.

It's like essentially just a couple of blocks. I would imagine. Right, right, right. I don't actually know the right number, but I know if someone told me something's a half mile away, I actually would not complain about having to walk it all that bad.

Okay. Noted. You wrote that down too. Only a half mile into a casual hike with her cousin. She tripped and fell into a stream which is any of us could and probably have done that right um she told her cousin like wait a minute like we're so close to camp let me just go back and change before we finish on this one so i don't know she wasn't even alone i thought she was alone for some reason she's with her

cousin weirdly her cousin like then just like hung out in that little spot in the woods by himself. Like, didn't, like, go back with her while she changed. Like, what was he going to do for 20 minutes? Well, I don't know. I mean, I feel like. Climb a tree? I don't know. I'd be like, I'd just sit down and, like, have a smoke.

I don't know. Oh, yeah, that's true. What did you do back then? I have no idea. But I feel like that makes sense. Like, oh gonna go change my clothes yeah okay i'll wait here if it's only a few yeah i guess so either way it was she she ends up going back and this was by the way this was the same trail that paula was on in 1949 when she went missing um so she says i'm gonna run back to the camp her husband is at the camp and he said that frida never showed up so somewhere between that yeah and her cousin never saw her

come back so for her to only walk with an earshot of both of them essentially i mean if she was screaming for help someone would have heard but she vanished in such a short distance and she was so nearby that if she needed help someone would have heard her yeah and the search was even more extensive than paula's in 1949 which i think she was the thousand person one the thousand person manhunt yeah yeah yeah but what's sad interesting is that it was even more extensive than paula's manhunt because paula's father when they never found paula he was so upset that they never found her that he was uh he said that there were mistakes in the case and he wanted that to never happen to anybody again so his efforts helped uh found the vermont state police and improved protocols, search and rescue protocols.

So because of her disappearance and Paula's father's initiatives, the search for Frida was even more intense. Wow. Even so, they brought the National Guard out again, who are like, oh, my God, don't even tell us the address. We know how to get there by memory now. Give us a punch card at this point. The National Guard, the Army, local authorities and volunteers all failed to locate frida what in the world is going on until months later frida's remains were discovered in an open area where searchers had already extensively looked through this area and it was open no trees nothing so they would have

definitely found her which means that she was hidden during the search and rescue and only after the search and rescue efforts ended someone dragged her out there what the fuck is going on and when they did find her her body was so um decomposed decomposed that they could not determine a cause of death what in the world um this is getting really freaky so this leaves the triangle with five cold cases that we know of or that were like heavily publicized i'm sure i mean that was back in the 40s and this is like 400 000 acres of woods so someone else has unfortunately probably gone missing or been hurt out in these woods but these are the five cold cases that created the lore of the buddington triangle i mean and the wild part is like if it is a true crime situation these are all very different victim profiles like

i mean it's aside from the two women but like 18 year old basically a teenage girl a little boy an older man like a middle-aged woman it just seems all over and then the guy on the bus which also that wouldn't make sense for i guess a true crime necessarily but it's just so odd. So these are some of the theories then. The most obvious is that there was a serial killer that might have been active in the area and hiding out in the woods. Because, as you were just talking about the profile, the only thing that all these people had in common was that they all vanished in the winter near the end of the year in this in the same general area that's the only commonalities they have other than that they are completely different in age and gender in location i mean they were in the general the general area but like yeah i mean they were all within earshot of witnesses uh or at least three out of five of the victims were all within shot of your

shot of witnesses so it couldn't have been like an opportunistic killer because they weren't easy targets especially like two of them were survivalists who probably had loaded guns on them one of them definitely had a loaded gun because they found a bullet casing oh my god and so it's not like he was just if it was a serial killer, they maybe were like very new at it and were just picking anybody and not knowing who to be careful of. I mean, maybe I just wonder then with that final, it was so different to suddenly bring the remains back. Like maybe that one was a serial killer who was like, oh, I'll just capitalize on the fact that people are vanishing. Maybe I can just pop on in. The fact that people are vanishing, maybe I can just pop on in.

I mean, that does feel like it could be a power move of like, haha, I can up the ante now and literally bring the bodies back and you still won't know who I am. I'm assuming they looked at the husband and cousin for her death. I guess so. It was never determined. I'm so creeped out by that. So another theory was wild animals. Okay, sure. Like black bears in the area

could have taken them but again three attacks there were with three attacks there were witnesses that would have either been with an earshot or they would have literally seen a fucking bear or like yeah even if they didn't see a bear with that person there would have been like notices out in the woods that there's a bear in this area. Yeah, or they would have at least heard a struggle, right? Or some movement. Like a bear is not subtle. Exactly. There would have been tracks or blood,

especially since every single missing person was at the end of the year in the winter. So in cases where there was snow on the ground, there should have definitely been tracks or blood. First of all, bears hibernate. I went to third grade and I did learn that okay okay second of all degree red parka you think a bear you think a bear ate the fucking red parka no where is it you know well they also thought maybe uh an animal one animal killed frida and then another animal maybe dragged her body in it like out into the woods and that would explain why she was found all of a sudden well like if a

an animal big enough to drag a human being dragged her right to where people had been looking that means she probably wasn't that far away from that area and people had probably searched that area too right so or it could be a combo maybe an animal killed her and a person dragged her out into the middle of nowhere maybe a person killed her an animal so it could be anything and but with the wild animal theory like you said there should have definitely been signs of a struggle people were with an earshot of most of these people two of them had guns there would at least be blood of someone trying to shoot the animal to keep it away from them and the only like big cat that was considered a predator in the area was the eastern cougar and it had already been extinct by that point um a new big

cats wouldn't have started wandering that area for several more decades right okay and i you know it's so wild to me that they found the bullet casing because like that means they were looking very thoroughly right like unless they just happened to stumble upon it but that means they were looking for little clues and they i imagine when the searches got even more intense they were looking for a fucking red parka or whatever exactly anything i mean jesus that's so weird no it's such a good point that like something as small as a bullet casing means that like it's not that they were doing a quick scan scan right yeah they were looking looking so they would have found a

fucking red piece of fabric they would have seen like a human limb or something if someone got ripped apart any remains blood blood if someone got hurt um another theory which i do like this theory a lot is um that because this area was an abandoned mine shaft that maybe people since the mountain was once covered in mining operations and there were a lot of shafts that were placed randomly and wouldn't have even been marked right um people might have thought they were walking into a cave or maybe they got lost and they were trying to find shelter. Well, imagine just like falling into one of these old mine shafts and then like... Exactly. That's absolutely terrifying.

Which is, that's the theory, is that a lot of them might have just fallen and died on impact, which is why you never heard them cry out for help. It's why they all of a sudden just fucking vanished because they dropped immediately. That is so frightening. So that's, I think that's a pretty good one that even an experienced hiker isn't an experienced miner, you know, like. Right, right. And if they hadn't been marked and you take one wrong step or, you know, you go into one wrong little hovel or cave thinking you're just going to have your lunch and then, ooh. Yeah.

So I like that one a lot. But people also like the argument here, which is a good argument, is that people had never had issues with the shafts in this area before. So why from 1945 to 1950? Oh, that's true. so why from 1945 to 1950 why in this only five year period were people like experiencing just like a fucking cascade of mine shafts that you just yeah that's a great point unless like in 1950 they did some like massive overhaul of the safety yeah and like put signs up or something but like it doesn't sound like that is what i don't think that was what happened but i i agree that like that's weird if there are like especially that one girl who was like only half a mile away from her campsite.

Like if people are camping in this area and there's an accidental mine shaft you could drop into, they would have signs or they'd cover it up or something. Or you'd think someone else would have seen it or found it by now. Someone else since 1950 would have dropped in there by accident. Especially if they're doing these intense searches like search and rescue operations yeah someone would have stepped on something um so that's a theory as to why that doesn't work it also wouldn't make sense that frida and paula would have both fallen in uh like we're saying how people were scouring the area pretty good but frida and paula were on like one of the most common trails. So how are they the only two people in a well-marked public hiking trail to find a mysterious shaft?

That makes sense. Another theory is that people maybe who got lost died of hypothermia or starvation, but Frida was half a mile away from her campsite. She did fall into a stream and it was winter, so maybe she got cold, but it was half a mile away from her campsite. She did fall into a stream and it was winter, so maybe she got cold. But it was half a mile. She wouldn't have even noticed she had a cold yet by the time she got back to her husband at the campsite. And again, with hypothermia too, we know that people tend to shed their clothing when they are close to death from that reason. And there's no clothing being found. And there's no clothing being found.

And there's no roommate. I mean, I guess an animal could have. But for all five of them to just like inexplicably vanish. That's, yeah, probably a stretch. For like exposure. But like James was on a bus. Like what are you talking about? Yeah, that's true too.

Yeah, what the hell? And James is definitely the weirdest one. Because he was on a bus. So he couldn't have starved. He couldn't have had hypothermia. He couldn't have fallen fallen into a shaft he couldn't have been eaten by a bear could it have been like they stopped at a rest stop and he and like nobody realized he never got back on the bus i it it feels like i mean honestly james is such a weird one it's not even like on a hiking trail that my first thought is like he must have just like gone to the restroom and missed the bus like i feel like it could have been something easier than that but i don't know it people say that they on the last stop and then the stop

before bennington he was still on the bus as of that last stop so mid bus ride to bennington he should he disappeared that's really strange um and then because he's so weird and no one can place like his fucking story people's theories got a little more crazy and they started suggesting cryptids they started saying that the culprit could be this bigfoot variant in the area called the bennington monster oh and the only story we have of the bennington monster i'm telling you it feels like a game of telephone all over again because it's from the 1800s back when there were stage coaches sure and the first sighting of the bennington monster was when a stage coach was carrying people and had to stop on the side of the road because a flash flood made the roads too dangerous so this stranded stage coach is on the road the driver is looking around the area by the stage

coach to see if like they're parked in an okay area and he's using literally an old oil lamp this is the beginning of my horror movie it is i'm scared did you just say my lore that's your lore said i said oh my lord but also but also this is my lord this is canon for me and my i have an oil lamp now i thought you were saying shifter canon girl people are using the lantern to find you. To find my wallet, yeah. It'll never be found. It's literally the equivalent of you using your phone flashlight to find your wallet at the bottom of your car. I mean, I was literally doing that for over an hour yesterday.

So, yeah, it's a little too on the nose. The driver looked around the area of the stagecoach in the dim light of his oil lamp. looked around the area of the stagecoach in the dim light of his oil lamp and he saw in the mud very fresh impossibly huge bear humanoid footprints and you mean bear b-a-r-e right ugh um then a gigantic humanoid figure comes out of the trees and attacks the stagecoach oh no somehow with its hulk strength knocked the whole stagecoach with a bunch of passengers on its side so all the people go tumbling in the stagecoach and the passengers only saw the creature's eyes reflecting in the lantern before it ran off they didn't see a big fucking machine like a big massive monster um but they saw his eyes they saw those baby blue over and then ran away like it didn't like eat any of them

or something yeah right like isn't that like this feels like this has to be some sleepy hollow bullshit like yeah it's not more of that sleepy hollow bullshit. Yeah. But like, I think about like a monster coming out and chasing you, who was also perfectly already just walking in that area for you to see the footprints. Then he comes out and knocks everyone down, doesn't take a single victim and then runs off, but has the most beautiful eyes you ever did see. I would say perhaps the word we're looking for is contrived. Perhaps a bit contrived. Oh, okay.

You know, you sound like someone who would ride in a stagecoach in the 1800s. say perhaps the word we're looking for is contrived perhaps a bit oh okay you know you sound like someone who would write in a stagecoach in the 1800s i sound like someone who shouldn't be losing her wallet every weekend and yet here we are the fact that you would lose your wallet every day of your life and use words like contrived is such a that's why i keep having this little mentee bee i'm like what is the matter with me? Like, you know, how do I- I'm so smart. I use words I could try. How did I ace geometry and I can't fucking keep my license on me, on my person?

That's so unhinged, like mentally unstable. No, girl, that's just neurodivergence, my friend. Now you sound like my mom, my new and improved mom who somehow suddenly believes that that i've been saying it since day one homes you have been and i think we all knew i needed to wait for my mother to confirm it before yeah i could say it a million times but you really needed to hear it somewhere for the inner child you know yeah maybe that's what it was um so it attacked the sage coach knocked the doctor to the side ran Later on, there were other reports of the same monster. People were claiming that they, too, saw giant barefoot tracks in the mud. There were reports of a monster who was over six feet tall and covered in thick black fur from head to toe.

And by the mid-1800s, people were now reporting a local gorilla man and were so scared of it that they started forming hunting parties to track it down oh my lord it was cited many times walking around in the woods and around people's houses nobody ever shot at it so these hunting parties seemed like they were not working um and theories ranged from it being an escaped zoo animal to a prankster in a costume but like i feel like if i were a prankster in a costume but like i feel like if i were a prankster in a costume the second i read in newspapers that people had created hunting parties shooting at me yeah i would be like the prank's over bitch and also thought that i was like abducting children and stuff i'd be like okay this is no longer a funny prank like attempted murder like now like i'm

gonna go to jail now they're gonna ask where all the remains are and like i just got this on amazon i wasn't trying to be part of this police investigation i'm just covered in mud it wasn't even a hair i mean come on um also imagine you're just like a more than normal hairy person and now people are writing about the gorilla man in the newspaper that's tragic yeah that's gotta hurt so you have to have an insecurity by the end of the day it's gotta be embarrassing uh people also said like it might be an escaped zoo animal but there were no missing animals at the zoo and it seemed again like a hard sell that someone would keep wearing a costume knowing that gunfire was a threat to them um yeah people believe that this monster might capture and eat people in the mountains and then could

also somehow masterfully hide evidence. So that's another theory. Maybe it lives in the mine shafts like Mothman. Yeah. Or even like, was it Shasta Mountain or something where like there's a whole race of people out there who hide in the old mountains right yeah i mean maybe there's something we just don't know about that uses the empty mine shafts i mean that's creepy in and of itself yeah so i mean that's the other theory

then is that there's a monster in the woods who's taking people and has it feels a lot like um other cryptids i've talked about where it was only spotted for like a few years and now 50 years have passed and it's never been seen again but we still think it's out there eating people even though it's shown no signs it reminds me of what does it remind me of like um not pakwaji what's the what's the guy who cries because he's so ugly oh the uh the squonk squonk uh it's like that where it's like it's written about twice in close proximity and then like nobody ever talks about it again until now and we're still talking about it but that is bizarre and like the fact that this was actually like real evidence

of people actually vanishing is so sad like usually the stories are like oh you know like the the oil lamp story like oh it might just be kind of exaggerated but the fact that five people in like a child actually went missing yeah or the fact that there's people have put newspaper reports of this gorilla man from a hundred years before have now said like oh maybe that guy's still alive and hurting people like it could it could be anything like people have branched out too far where now i feel like almost no answer right it seems almost like way less clear yeah like the further out you get um people believe that the monster might be hiding evidence people also uh turn to two different legends linked to the mountain so now they're. If it's not the monster.

Then maybe there's some other lore. We need to be paying attention to. And that's where we get two different legends. Really one legend. From indigenous people. People have often said that. There's a story linked to the Abenaki people. But every origin.

I've found to this legend. And legend and also search has said the same thing is that um a lot of the legends origins aren't really substantiated and every source seems to come back to a non-native person writing about this in the 90s so okay yeah that sounds right just putting it out there it might not actually be an indigenous legend it might just be someone someone's decided to create one with someone this color yeah beyond yeah the story is that they're all four winds one north wind a south wind east wind west wind they all met at the top of a mountain and had a fight and their eternal combat cursed the mountain and people get confused by the wind up there and end up lost and never get home

oh interesting okay so it sounds a little puck wedgie like it's sending you astray almost yeah yeah exactly and glastonbury mountain is noted for its high winds and temperamental weather so that does fit the legend um i don't know why someone had to maybe make up an indigenous legend they could have just said i don't know it's really fucking windy because the 90s are wild and people decided they could suddenly put like um i mean myself included put like dream catchers up and shit you know i feel like that was a time when um we weren't completely aware yet of how inappropriate that was yeah you know i mean i'm including myself in that oh i'm including myself in that too i loved a fucking dream catcher i know and it took me years to be like oh gosh

imagine the people who like have one like tattooed on them or something i know i know that's gotta be really tough like uh but now you just turn it into like a really cool spider web or something you know yeah make it a spider web the kind that grows in the hell hollow or whatever deb the web put deb in there the web um so okay so the the winds are mad at each other and they confuse people and uh and it actually does fit the story because glastonbury is so windy in fact here's a here's a a little factoid for you um the wind direction is so inconsistent on this mountain that all plants curve differently no based on how the wind was blowing when they grew what the fuck isn't that fun that is bananas but also for a survivalist it's like you can't trust any leaf no true point

so i don't know where we're going i don't know um a second story is that somewhere on the mountain there's a mysterious this is a another in quote quote quote indigenous story okay okay um that somewhere on the mountain there's a mysterious stone that swallows anything that touches it and so if you're a lost hiker and you stand on the rock to get a good vantage point and like get your bearings you could be swallowed by the stone and vanish forever super even worse the stone can allegedly move at will so you never know which rock is safe okay Okay, great. Okay, I was going to say, somebody put up a little sign or something, but I guess not.

Another theory, your favorite UFOs. I figured that one was coming. It usually is. And in Vermont, it actually is the number two state that you're most likely to see a UFO. is the uh number two state that you're most likely to see a ufo i feel like maybe i've heard that only because i feel like i've seen like merch that has like a vermont with ufo like i don't know maybe i'm really i don't know maybe i'm thinking of our trip to portland i mean we'll be there soon again shout out to our tour but uh i don't know i feel like i kind of put that together somehow but i didn't know it was number two. What's number one then? New Mexico?

I thought that too, but it's Washington. Oh, wow. Interesting that they're both kind of like bored, like a Canadian in some way. And Canadian also. I wonder if that means like Vancouver and like Prince Edward Island or like the hotspots in Canada. Listen, I've been to Halifax and it's a weird place, but I didn't see a UFO. I'm still so jealous of you with Halifax. My mom and I actually said we're going to go on our own trip to Halifax. You should. I still, Blaze and I still say like, can we find some excuse to go back there?

Because like we went for his conference and it just happened to be our anniversary weekend and i'm like you need another conference is there a stay-at-home dad conference up in halifax this year i love that there might be a stay-at-home conference you have to go to i know i know i'm like it plays like that's not a thing so stop asking no um but yeah i would love you should totally go i mean and the fact that i know we already talked about this like years ago but they they have like a whole Titanic history. Oh, yeah. I still have the newspaper. You got me.

Oh, my God. That's right. OK. Wow. Anyway, it's a cool town. Cool place. The second I'm going to Halifax, everyone will know. Don't worry.

Oh, yeah. Well, I'll be just like awkwardly like FaceTiming you constantly. So UFOs are said to be a theory. facetiming you constantly uh so ufos are said to be a theory uh people have reported often there that there are unexplained sounds and lights in the bennington triangle along with radio disturbances it's led some people to believe alien abductions are the reason behind the missing people it's also led me to believe that i mean it does not take much for me to believe in that either i'm like i'm like well that's not a good barometer for that i suppose in my mind aliens almost make the most sense isn't that like scary when that's the i'm like am i in cubanon like i'm like why all of a sudden am i like so quick to believe the

fringe thing right like a reality check or like a inner intervention that's when i just i try to have this conversation with my own girlfriend and she gives me a weird stare down until i come back to reality i think that's when blaze and allison really are are our rock you know i know she has to she has to find a therapist to just be like i think i'm with an unnervingly strange person oh god the last theory is that there are The last theory is that there are Glastonbury wild men. Oh, whoa. Which is somehow different than the Bennington monster, who was also a wild man running around. Okay.

Same time period, the 1800s. Hunters reported, this is so fucking wild and inappropriate now but hunters reported finding a red-headed man in the forest completely naked and because of that they shot at him they shot at him oh my god wait and he went sorry in my head i when you said they found him i assumed he was like dead he's like running around sorry he was a red-headed naked man and they said that he seemed strange well because he had red hair i don't know because he's naked and running around the woods i mean naked is weird but like that doesn't require a bullet no certainly not you shouldn't just shoot at anything that strikes you as odd also i love that they were able to finally actually use their guns in their hunting group and shoot at a human being but they couldn't do it what they

were just looking for an excuse yeah um they said he seemed possessed by spirits which yikes that means this person might just have a mental health crisis yeah he might have been having a mentee b yeah i mean haven't we all um they shot at him and when he moved towards them this is how like fucking non-alpha male these people are are you ready they shot at him until he moved towards them to like protect himself and they dropped their guns and ran away so like they were they were big and mighty until all the sensible thing they've done so far i wonder if it's because he was naked and that's gay but maybe maybe a naked man coming toward you. Yeah, maybe that's what scared him off.

Rustle some feathers. Yeah, yeah. Just like you're down to use a gun until all of a sudden they fight back and then you run away. It's like, oh, well. Yeah. But he didn't get shot. He didn't get shot. And also, he didn't get shot.

They shot at him. He approached them to say, if you want to do this let's do this i don't know i'm guessing he he moved towards them in a threatening way and even though they had guns they dropped them and ran away which also to me is like the next part of this story is that the red-headed naked man should pick up their guns and chase them but well i was gonna say if they drop their guns like like now he's an armed redheaded naked man. Now he might need to be like handled. Now I'm worried. Now I'm worried.

Yeah, exactly. Anyway, this story was published in the New York Times. Your brother is in charge of newspapers.com as far as I'm concerned. So if you'd like to learn more about that, he can find that for us. People thought that the man was possessed and turned into some sort of supernatural monster who hunted people even though people were hunting him that seems like quite a stretch too to be like i looked at someone and i decided that they have been become a supernatural person who's hunting humans this is the closest equivalency i've ever seen to like a man being like called witchcraft like a witch or something yeah like yeah yeah yeah yeah it's like well she had a birthmark and she exactly

and she called me ugly so she must be killed and red hair like are you kidding what else could it mean it's like okay so um yeah they just out of nowhere i wonder if it's because they got cornered and they were just making up whatever story they could come up with maybe but in the 1960s there's another story of a wild man out in the out in the woods uh he allegedly lived in the caves and would climb down the mountain into town just to flash people and wave around a gun well okay here's what i have to say about this like derail territory now i'm sort of back on board because now i'm thinking so you hooked me back in you reeled me back in okay naked man okay connection there he has armed himself they dropped their weapons he grabbed a gun but then like 150 years later

he's back to still be naked and wave a gun around i really did think you said five years but you did say 150 okay that went from 1800s to 1960 so it's even past all the missing people understood okay okay okay okay so like is there now like a a copycat like another naked red-headed man with a gun running around what's going on it really makes i want to have more information for you because it's so weird i feel like i had some logic going in my notes and now i'm just spewing random worded sentences. It just sounds so deeply unhinged. Like, I don't know what is happening in this area, but it's not good.

Like, the wild man, because he was naked and redheaded and looked possessed to them. You're like sexually harassing people. Like, what happened? Yeah, yeah. And now there's apparently another one 150 years later doing the same thing. Also, in order to flash someone, I imagine you have to be wearing clothes first, right? To be like, flash. Yeah, so where did he find these clothes where are they the same clothes for 150 years just being passed down from redhead hunting gear like where is he getting it i don't know passed from yeah passed from his descendants it's just odd so he never physically harmed anyone

which i love that he is waving around a gun has been shot at yeah but he hasn physically harmed anyone, which I love that he is waving around a gun, has been shot at. Yeah. But he hasn't harmed anybody. He still freaks people out and is said to disappear back into his cave for months at a time. I would argue centuries at a time. sometimes are combined with the the wind legends and says that the wind spirits drove him and others mad and possessed them into protecting the mountain and being really now they live in the mines and all this yes so the story is that they now protect the mountain are super like i don't know so if they ever see anyone who threatens them they like take them away and that's how the missing people disappeared okay okay in 1892 so a guy out there killed his own co-worker

with a rock and insisted something invisible had told him to do it um so that's another thought that maybe he became a wild man when the winds confused him uh what year was that 1892 he killed him with a rock jesus i mean whoa yeah with a rock that's fucking hard that's a rough that's a rough like an intense yeah um he escaped custody when being arrested and disappeared into the mountains and the theory is that he just became a wild man and is on the loose, which so now like he was out there from the 1890s, just maybe killing more people with rocks because. Did he have red hair? Because I feel like. Was he naked?

Oh, my God. This is getting so weird. Can you imagine being naked at work and then killing your coworker? That's like, that's a lot of information. Like, I would have just not gone to work with him that day. I would have not gone to work with him. day i would have not gone to work with him yeah i mean yeah i guess hindsight's 2020 right i mean maybe i don't know what was going christine if you ever show up onto a recording completely naked with a rock i i'm just gonna tell you to go

take a nap and be like girl you're you're really the mentee bees before this were nothing like what's going on yeah uh yeah no you know what i'm not even gonna i feel like i'm losing like i feel like i'm losing people in this story like i feel like the listeners have lost i feel like we've lost our interest on reality sort of and so it's every sentence makes no sense i feel like i'm just it's like i just wrote it's like i had ai create random sentences precisely and then it like started to go you kept saying add another sentence add another sentence and it got like more and more i promise we're almost done so if people are losing interest please hold on because i i'm also confused i also don't like it i wish i had so don't understand i wish i had more stability for you but i I don't. Let's just let's just get through it. So it became one of the many unsolved deaths near the mountain that that this.

Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry. That's a few down. So five years later, unsolved. I heard a rock was involved, but I suppose we could call it unsolved. Okay, so this co-worker killed his other co-worker and then ran off into the woods after escaping custody so they think he might have joined the wild men in the woods. Five years later, a hunter nearby was found dead. He was shot and then dragged several feet

and his loaded gun was placed beside him to make it look like he hurt himself. Ew! People then started wondering how a killer would have snuck up on a skilled hunter with a gun in hand. Who's like hunting other things, presumably. Yeah. And then why the killer wasn't even robbed, including his own gun.

Or why the killer? You mean why the hunter? Why the hunter wasn't robbed. It's a different kind of killer. I'm kidding. Don't don't yell at me. I'm just kidding. I just was like, wow.. It's a different kind of killer. I'm kidding. Don't yell at me. I'm just kidding. I just was like, wow, Em, that's a bold statement.

Why the hunter was not robbed. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. Modern hikers have reported that the mystery triangle in the area also has caused phenomena like compasses and gps systems to not work people get turned around all the time in the woods there are also strange voices that cut into music and conversations over the radio so when you're talking when you're walkie-talking with someone in your camp people will just start talking that you don't know and then fade away isn't that fucking creepy as hell i don't like that like so someone's listening one and they

can interfere with your like radio line at will yeah some think ghosts and malicious entities lead hikers astray uh until they have no hope of finding the trail again there's also of course the local legend about a cult living on the mountain and killing people who discover them which sounds very similar to the wild men theory. Yeah, just maybe a little more organized and they've got a leader. Yeah, exactly. Like they have to pay to be there, maybe. Yeah, they pay their dues, I suppose. Yeah. Locals tell stories of occasionally encountering actual cult members in Bennington when they come down from the mountain for supplies. To flash people? Oh, well well i don't know if that's part of their initiation maybe it's they're being hazed yeah but apparently they are really aggressive if approached and tend to threaten people so that does fit the story that there's wild people living

out in the mountains willing to hurt people who come near their home yeah yeah i mean if that's true then yeah totally and then i'll end on this it's just a random final theory that i'm sure kids tell around a campfire is that allegedly there's a door to hell on the mountain that opens up and draws people in and that could cause the luring of people astray. I mean, it's not the weirdest thing we've heard today. So honestly, why not? And that is the Bennington Triangle. That was very good. I don't know if it was very good i even lost myself halfway through so i feel like that's saying something if we're like totally derailed ourselves by the story then i i'm sorry to the people who like logic and structure and the stories because that just

was not it you didn't get it like you're here so you should have known but did you die no you're here but did you die uh also and there is a hair on your microphone that i keep thinking is on my laptop um it's on the side by the camera i don't know if anyone saw on youtube but like three different times i went like this oh try and get it off the screen and i was like oh my god that's on m's it was a cat hair there's a lot of cats that's why i thought it was mine i was like well em doesn't have cats but i guess you're in a different i i'm actually this room one of the cats is a big fan of so um so i know exactly which cat it was anyway oh boy thank you for telling me i'm sure that was bothering somebody except like also you but i mean it was

fine it wasn't you know did i die no did you die no all right emothy i have a story for you today that i requested um from sersha to to help me research because i've wanted to do this since well for a very long time um there's a couple of stories coming up that for some reason i felt were like nods to early episodes in which I said I would someday do these stories and then as I was researching BTK a couple weeks ago um I kind of remembered these guys were mentioned and I was like oh shit I've been wanting to cover them since February of 2017 so oh my god here we are many years later um the first one i'm gonna do is harvey glattman he is also known as the glamour girl slayer or the lonely hearts killer oh my okay i've heard of i think i've heard of lonely

heart killing hearts killer but i think i'm just thinking of sergeant pepper lonely heart and okay yeah good interesting reference i was gonna i i thought i knew where you were going i didn't um because there are several types of like a lonely hearts killer is also i think like a category of serial killer okay um and i'm pretty sure it's people who like seek out victims in classifieds or you know people who are looking for for companionship or romance become the victims if that makes sense like a lonely hearts killer they're targeting people who are lonely so here we go this is the story of harvey glattman So he was born in the Bronx at the end of 1927 on the eve of the Great Depression. Oh, thank God.

He came at the right time. He came at the worst time. When he was five years old, this is just a fun fact, he had his tonsils and adenoids removed. You had your tonsils taken out, right? I had. It sucked. Yeah, I heard it. Were you a kid or an adult? I was an adult. tonsils and adenoids removed uh have you ever you had your tonsils taken out right i had these it sucked yeah i heard it what were you a kid or an adult i was an adult when you're a kid it's not that bad but i was gonna say i feel like i've heard it's so much worse as an adult oh my god it's so much worse it's and you get fooled you get bamboozled because you haven't had your child

think oh all kids do that no no because they tell you it's gonna suck but they. They tell you it's going to suck, but they don't tell you it's like a 10-day healing process, and the first four are kind of easy breezy. Oh, no. And it's day five that kicks your ass, because that's when the scab forms. Or for the last four days, the scab has been forming, and then on the fifth day,

it falls off and you swallow it. Stop. It's literally like this. It's a big, and also swallow it. I mean, M, stop. It's literally like this. It's a big, and also when it's blue, because it's soggy from being wet. All right, I'm done. I'm leaving.

I think you need to understand, I'm actually really going to show up naked with a rock the next time we see you. It really is. I can't handle this. No, it's as disgusting. It's worse than you're even imagining because you feel it happen. And then you see it really it's it no it's as disgusting it's worse than you're even imagining because you feel it happen and then uh you hope it happens a lot like why did you get them out i literally i was like anything is better than not getting my tonsils out because i had

horrible tonsil stones what the fuck is that don't tell me i don't want to know i don't i literally can't handle any more information. A tonsil stone, you probably had one. People get them a little bit every now and then. It's not like every now and then a tonsil stone will show up in someone's mouth. It's just kind of like impacted food over time. Have you ever seen one of those white dots come out of your mouth when you press it? It smells like ass. No? I don't think so. So I had really, when you have tonsillitis, or at least, I don't know if there's multiple versions what i had though was my tonsils if you looked in the back of my throat it looked porous like a sponge like there was all these holes and so food kept getting trapped in them and the only way this is so foul but i kind of secretly loved it the only way to get the food

out was literally sticking your finger in the back of your throat and popping it like zits and getting all the tonsil stones out of your throat the literal fuck is going on here i like i like pimple popping stuff so i was like oh i want to see it come out of my throat but like doesn't really bother me as much they were like huge they were huge and it was like especially if you eat like bread or potatoes or something that like could easily get stuck in little crevices. The only things I eat. Yeah. Great. And for days it would just like compact on itself.

So then you had like this little ball of like old food. And so when it came out of your throat, it was just old food that was like beginning to like rot. Like how big is it when you said like, oh, if it came out of your mouth, like how big? Mine were always like the size of like uh like a tic tac like a tic tac big yeah they were bad and they were all the there was many and often it was very bad big and because i was always pressing on my throat on the inside like i was yeah i'm sure that didn't fucking help i was irritating it so i was getting sore throats all the time because i was putting my like dirty fingers into like holes in my throat like it was very bad and so i was like please get my tonsils out please take them out because

otherwise if i didn't push on it i could feel like food stuck in my throat but in the walls of my throat so i couldn't even swallow and put it down that's horrifying so but so but it helped right oh yeah i'm totally fine now i don't get tonsil stones anymore um god but i remember like because i can't witness i can't witness it and survive to tell the tale i just know i can't it was crazy in college it was like like a sick little like thing i would do is like look in the mirror and just like pop all my like oh i thought you were gonna say it's like a party trick and i was like no no once again why do you drink beer like a normal fucking person okay i know it's disgusting i know it's disgusting but i'm also one of those people who likes all the

like gross like no that doesn't like that doesn't really bother me the pot that it's the it's a scab that really makes me want to they just a few doctors don't even really tell you about that part because they know it's disgusting and you just don't even want to know like how do you even say it with a straight face i'd be. A scab the size of your entire throat is going to fall off in your mouth. Yeah. The thought of that makes me really want to vomit. Well, so the reason day five sucks

is when the scab falls off, now your throat is raw all over again. Oh! So all of a sudden it feels like horrible, horrible, horrible strep throat. Like probably the worst sore throat you've ever, ever, you've ever ever ever because your entire throat is open and exposed and trying to heal so i remember like day one through four i was like eating like normal i was talking like normal i was like oh this is like such a breeze they were saying it's going to be such a pain in the ass

and then one morning i woke up and i knew the scab had fallen off because like it really felt like someone had stabbed me in the throat a million times i just felt somebody out there go motherfucker because they probably have this coming i know there's that statistically someone listening to this has this procedure coming up um i just i truly like i feel like it's good you're warning them i think I just heard someone throw up, actually. So, yeah, it was me. OK, because you're making me ill. I will say it was the best decision I ever made.

Like, in hindsight, it was totally worth it. I mean, like, I got lasers in my eyes and like that literally didn't feel like anything. And so to me, this is just wild, heinous. Anyway, did everyone like 10 minutes of me talking about well you know it's funny you say that i mean it's not funny at all it's just foul and disgusting but um basically i give you this bullet point about uh having his tonsils removed at five years old um just as a way to say that seemed to be the only like health issue this guy ever faced like the only oh so he had a week of problems right is that a phrase i like it is it a week of

problems i don't know i also came up with something else recently that i thought was pretty good up with that christine stop you just said it and then we're like oh you'll just figure out what it means well it's a yeah i just said it i like it a week of you just had a week of problems christine i've never heard that before okay i have another one that i came up with for me and allison i call us um i i this it's probably not even that good but i think it's cool uh i call allison me allison and i just a pair of let me justs because we are whenever we're about to leave the house we go oh let me just do this oh let me just turn off oh let me just let me just that's good and so every time we're doing that i'm like oh we're just a pair of let me just aren't we that's so real though like oh let me just go

pee real quick oh let me just go grab my let me just get the keys let me just turn the lights off let me just let me just check if i have my wallet, let me just go grab my... Let me just get the keys. Let me just turn the lights off. Let me just... Let me just checkify my wallet. I don't... I was like, it made so much sense. Whoa. I was like, oh, we're just a pair of let me justs. That's really clever, Em. I like that.

I'm so glad. Thank you. Oh, my God. You don't even need to use words like contrived. You come up with your own beautiful vocabulary. I don't need to use words, bitch. I'm just... You can speak your own fucking language.

Anyway, so I tell you this to say he was typically like a very healthy i mean hate to use the word normal child like he you know had the usual stuffed chicken pox whatever he got his tonsils removed but otherwise his mom was like no like he was well adjusted he was well behaved and he showed no red flags at first so at three years old uh harvey was in his parents bedroom and his mom walked in and saw a sight that she didn't quite know what to do with um oh was he was he looking in the mirror and popping all of his throat sets i mean honestly um you could probably just insert that here yes um that is a troubling he was being a couple of let me justs or what he's being a little let me just so he had tied a piece of twine around his penis oh my and then attached the other end to a drawer oh my and was

like yeah yanking on it right like in a sexual way like to like to jerking off without using his hands no so it was almost like a he enjoyed the pain of it like a you know but he's three so also it's like he probably doesn't really know like you could just be exploring his body doing yes right and like it of course is normal for kids to do that um but this was just such like a very shocking thing for his mother to walk in on that she thought you know what maybe this is just him experimenting. Like, I mean, she handled it as far as I can tell from the research, she handled it as well as any parent would, right? She's like, okay, I mean, hopefully he's just experimenting and not going to hurt himself. And that's the end of it. Unfortunately, that was not the end of it. So when he was around 11 years old, this was in 1938, his parents left him alone for the day.

And when they came home, they saw that his neck was completely raw and bruised and burned. Oh, my God. And it seemed to be inflammation caused by rope burns. Whoa. So is he doing this to himself? He sure is. Yes. This is some autoeroticism.

And it's starting at a very young age and there was an episode about harvey glattman on um the podcast show serial killers and they mentioned that typically um this kind of autoerotic asphyxiation that kind of thing that interest usually isn't peaked in at least traditionally young men until age 19 is like about the average which is a fun fact for you all um and i guess one theory that they put out there was that perhaps when he was playing with string as a little kid like maybe he had like cemented that kind of fetish without realizing it at a young age by playing with like rope and twine. And then it kind of escalated really quickly. And by age 11, he was already.

Yeah, makes sense. Blown, you know, so perhaps that's what happened. But either way, you know, it's a jarring thing to come home, find your 11 year old like having, you know, tied a rope around his own neck. So this is kind of the beginning of when problems start to arise. That was the year they also relocated to Denver, Colorado from the Bronx. So when they relocated, Harvey, you know, being a preteen, he was really struggling socially. He had an extremely negative self-image. He had pretty average acne, just like any teenager might. But his father caught him masturbating one day and told him that that

would make his acne worse. Oh, fuck. So wait a minute. Why is that man with that woman who is being sexually positive and this guy is like i don't know and i don't know that she's even being sexually positive i think she just saw that and hoped like okay let's just hope that doesn't escalate like i think she just said like what am i supposed to do like it's a three-year-old but yeah so either way gross on the dad's part bad move bad move like trying to like curb his masturbating right like you know i feel like back decades ago probably pretty recently even it was very much kind of ingrained in you that that's a bad thing to do especially if you're you know religious or what have you um so i'm not surprised that his dad but you know his dad probably thought oh i'm just

doing like a harmless thing i'll just tell him like oh this makes you sick or i mean when i was little like my aunt told me when i pick my nose like it's gonna my nose is gonna get longer and longer right or like you cross your eyes and it'll get stuck that way yeah exactly exactly so i imagine that's kind of the intention behind it but it was obviously extremely damaging um and so now on top of these urges he had, he felt responsible and ashamed about creating his own like acne, his own self-image problems. He was ashamed about his body development. And one source claims, I don't know how true this is, that he was somehow also told that masturbating was a sign of homosexuality, which then in turn also doubled down on his shame, you know, back in the day, at least about masturbating. Despite this, he couldn't really help himself and he continued to secretly indulge in masochistic behaviors, which, of course, not necessarily abnormal or wrong, but physically dangerous.

Nonetheless, I mean, you know, there are adults whose lives are accidentally taken by auto erotic asphyxiation and let alone an 11 year old. Right. Like that's you don't really know the safety technique behind. I mean, it's just a dangerous thing to do. Yeah, totally. the safety technique behind i mean it's just a dangerous thing to do yeah totally so what he would do is he would typically tie a rope around his own neck and then he would loop it over an elevated pipe in the bathtub or a ceiling rafter in the attic and then he would pull on the rope to choke himself for pleasure okay but talk about upper arm strength well yeah it's like that seems yeah that's it's if one thing came from it you got upper arm strength i guess for you yeah it's uh it's just a it's it's i imagine it's a scary thing for your parents who in especially in what are we the 30s like to to discover you doing it's also i feel like um i don't know what the right thing

would be but part of me wants to be like let's educate ourselves on how to do this without hurting ourselves or something like but in the 1930s there was certainly no source material on that and that's why i like kind of give the parents a little bit of a break because like what the hell are they supposed to do like you know they were taught something even more outdated and and and backwards so like they're just trying to reroute him and like what you know they don't know and so even psychologists didn't know right so it's it's uh i imagine it was a really tough position to be in. And his parents were noticing that he was getting these injuries around his neck. And one day they walked in on him doing this and were like, no, that's enough. We're taking you to the doctor because they're like, something must be wrong.

So the mom takes him to the family doctor who, of course, is zero help and says, you got to give him, I guess, some slack, too. Why don't they teach him in medical school about an 11-year-old? It's like, I don't know where to even pinpoint the biggest problems here. They're kind of all over the place. But the doctor said, oh, it's probably just a phase and he'll grow out of it. And so they thought, OK, well, let's let's hope that's what happens. So she was concerned, of course. But the doctor just gave her some pills to give him, which we don't even know what pills they were.

But sugar pills or like, I mean, don't touch your neck pills? Like cocaine or whatever. Heroin. Mercury. Yeah. I don't know what pills, but he prescribed some unspecified pills and basically told the parents like, just write it out. This is probably a phase. So Harvey is described as being kind of a scrawny guy with buck teeth and big ears. And he was extremely self-conscious about his own looks he struggled

to make friends and he was terrified of girls his mom even said he would cross the street to avoid walking past girls on the sidewalk oh wow um and you know instead of maybe a more healthy coping mechanism harvey began channeling his inner turmoil into very intense anger and resentment toward women. Classic. Classic. So he grew resentful of women because of his own inferiority complexes. I mean, watch Criminal Minds and you'll get the idea. He started breaking and entering into women's homes at a very young age.

I'm talking like 12 years old. He starts breaking and entering into women's homes at a very young age. I'm talking like 12 years old. He starts breaking and entering into women's homes and he would steal small items, like not even necessarily anything valuable, just like lingerie, like random stuff sitting around just as like a kind of a power move, I guess, or like a way to claim ownership over women. Wow. At 12. That's crazy. Yeah. Yeah. And he eventually stole a handgun. And that's sort of when he realized like, hey, I could do this bigger and worse. Well, sure. It was like the second that you were getting away with it with a smaller thing, you have to...

What's it like? You have to... Escalate. Escalate. Yes. I mean, mean at 11 he's already experimenting with autoerotic asphyxiation and now he is now he's stealing guns and underwear literally and so it just really escalates like you said so instead of being afraid of women now harvey kind of turned this into aggression and uh he became bolder uh because like you said he got away with it and he escalated once again to stalking women instead of just like breaking

into their empty homes so it was said he would sorry let me say that again it was said that even when he was out walking around if he like bumped into a woman he would just even be an asshole then like he didn't even apologize if he like shoved a woman by mistake or like i mean not many guys don't i guess but like like he was like an incel in the making yes yes like very intentionally harboring like like you would call women females for sure right precisely So finally, like I said, as a young teenager, like 12 years old, he escalated to stalking women home, breaking in and attacking them. He would force women into their bedrooms where he would tie them up with rope, gag them and then sexually assault them. up with rope gag them and then sexually assault them and once he reached high school uh he was still struggling socially but then on the side he was doing these heinous activities uh and somehow still managed to do well academically so you know if you think about the parents it's like oh good

like he might be kind of awkward at school, but he's getting good grades. Yeah, they're like, well, he's checking all the boxes that we were prepared to worry about. Right. Like it doesn't necessarily. I mean, obviously, if they had known what he was doing in his free time, but everything else seemed perfectly normal. He even participated in extracurriculars like boy scouts and interestingly that is where he had uh i guess that's where his fascination with ropes and knots deepened i was literally about to say earlier i was gonna say like could it have started earlier because he was

like in in scouts or something yes that is also a theory that he was learning a lot about ropes he had perhaps already cemented that sexual fixation as a child not even meaning to obviously and now kind of getting to interact with ropes and learning how to tie things and that is probably a big part of it yes so he also enjoyed like pretty average normal hobbies like photography he was a paper delivery boy like nothing that unusual but in the off time in the in his free time he was continuing these like heinous stalking and assaulting crimes at like age 13 i mean he's a young kid was he like fully like essaying assaulting people or like just hitting them or like what was do we know what i think i think it really varied and i think part of the reason we say sexually assaulting is because there was such a range.

OK. And, you know, one of the I'm trying to get better. And Saoirse made a note of this, too. Like I'm trying to get better at really understanding, like the nuances between the different terminology. And so I don't I do know that it's it's pretty clearly stated that he at this point was sexually assaulting women. I know one particular case where he like masturbated while like having a woman forcibly tied up, you know, things like that ranged from that and is all over the place, all over the place. And, you know, part of it is, too, I i imagine in the 30s they maybe didn't so specifically differentiate or specifically name it um for what it was so we don't have all the details maybe to make it clear which level it was but at this point we do know at the very least, he's sexually assaulting women repeatedly. And at another point during this sort of ongoing hobby of his, he stole another gun.

And that's when he began targeting women in the street at night. And he would force them to take their clothes off at gunpoint just to humiliate them. Jeez. Yeah. And he would mug them at the same time. So he was taking money and then humiliate them. Jeez. Yeah. And he would mug them at the same time. So he was taking money and then humiliating women. And this was kind of his MO. So the police kind of caught on to this pretty quickly. In May of 1945, police caught him at age 17, breaking into a home.

He had a handgun and a rope with him. He actually also, side note side note fun fact not really he was known to carry a length of rope with him through his entire childhood which you know like looking back it's like oh god but at the time i mean he's a kid in boy scouts and he has some rope on him you don't necessarily think too much about it. I would have thought like, oh, you must be in Scouts and you're practicing knots. Exactly. Exactly.

Yeah. Trying to get your badge. You're learning magic because there's a lot of rope. Right. There's got to be a reason for why that's just like. But it feels even weirder to know that maybe he just wanted to like put his hand in his pocket and feel it, you know, like. Just have it. Yeah. Yeah. Just have it yeah yeah just have it yeah it was almost like he he he carried it with him um at all times whether he was like at school whether he was just at home doing homework or of course whether he was

breaking into uh homes i wonder if it was to make him like feel like he was in control because if something went wrong he could always use it against somebody like a token or like a amulet like some sort of like power like a weapon of sorts like a right to feel like he's prepared for for be prepared that's what they say oh god yeah i didn't even think of that yikes so police caught him breaking into this home with a handgun and rope um and when they questioned him, he like pretty immediately admitted to several other robberies, but of course left out the sexual assaults. So he was only charged for the robberies and his parents paid his bail to keep him out of, out of jail. So a month later, he really couldn't stand quitting for that long a month later after he was uh let out of jail he abducted a woman

tied her up drove her out of town and assaulted her but then he let her go and in fact he actually went so far as to call her a taxi and okay she got in the taxi they went their separate ways fortunately he let her go unfortunately he learned pretty quickly that he could never let his victims go again because she immediately of course went to the police and when she saw his mugshot because remember he had been arrested for robberies before she said that's the guy and he was once again arrested and despite this in the multiple arrests uh harvey graduated high school with good grades and was a model student imagine being like a teacher and like knowing his record and being like what is going on with this guy when he leaves my english class like yeah where's he? It's reminding me of when BTK would, you know, stalk his teacher outside her bedroom at night, also with a rope.

But, like, nobody knew that, right? Like, in this case, they know he's doing these things. Like, they know he was arrested for sexual assault. They know he was arrested for burglary, robbery. And he's still in school. So it's bizarre. That's so wild because in today's world, I feel like that wouldn't happen. I hope not.

Or maybe it would. I don't know. I just hope not. Yeah. But, of course, he's still struggling with other aspects of his life. And now that his predatory nature was exposed, he began seeing a psychiatrist who assigned him what we now know is an outdated diagnosis of split personality. Okay. Because, once again, this is the 40s uh we

don't really know what that would have translated to in today's world we can't you know assess him from from here uh but apparently harvey was deeply resentful of his peers and believed that nobody liked him and everybody had it out for him. And his resentment just grew and grew and grew. And eventually he was sentenced to up to a year in prison for his crimes. And when he was in prison this time, another physician examined him and disagreed with the split personality diagnosis and said, I actually don't think this guy is suffering any mental illness at all. And he knows right from wrong. So big 180.

And once again, we do not know. We can't diagnose him from here, obviously. So Harvey turned 18 in prison and he served eight months of his sentence. Upon his release, his mother took him and moved with him to Albany, New York, where he continued to stalk, rob and assault women at night. He had a real gun that he had stolen and he also had fake gun, fake handguns that he would use. And in one attempted assault, a nurse named Florence Hayden managed to escape. And that is how we have some of this information. Oh, okay.

Shortly after that, two more women that Harvey targeted also got away and reported the incident to the police. So now, even though he knows not to let his victims go on his own, out of his own volition, they're either escaping or making making their getaway and reporting this to police and all of a sudden three reports come in of this guy

and what he looks like and police are like cool we're on it so they arrested him obviously again how many arrests is this now like three or four this is the third but he's now in in albany so he he was arrested twice in denver uh sentenced to prison and then so maybe it's a four you know it's hard it's hard to say i'm not sure if it's the oh this is the third it's a third does he ever say is there ever an interview where he's saying like i know what i was doing was wrong because like part of me feels like he still has some sort of like empathy for or sympathy for these people and like because he's like you know he was calling that the only

reason he'd stopped calling cops or calling cabs is because he didn't want to be busted and arrested again like i'm not trying to say he's like a good person i just i feel like there's like still like a weird naivete or like a kindness or like a young innocence to something because with one of his victims he after sexually assaulting her had her lay in bed with him and cuddle and watch comedy movies and he just thought this was like an intimate moment they were sharing so oh my god there was definitely some wires crossed or at least a complete like refusal to acknowledge what he was doing was fucked up i don't know and i do know that what they what they've said about him is that he did not want to kill people that wasn't really part of you know his thing yeah he wanted to sexually assault them and then he learned the hard way quote-unquote that he couldn't let them live or

they would which is sort of like well i guess i had to kill them there was no other choice that's wild that his options were just stop sexually assaulting or fine you can sexually assault but you also have to kill them and he was like i guess killing is the only option for me i know what and you know you know what's so wild is that btk was sort of the reverse remember he said oh i would never i would never rape someone right but he murdered children right so it's like wow you guys have a twisted sense of fucking yeah morality or whatever you want to call it it's why i kind of this is like so sick but like imagine like a conversation between the two of them would be because they would have to like agree to disagree on incredibly fucked up things the other one is a monster yeah like why would you want why would you get off on

murdering a child well why would you rape someone and then just murder them out of convenience like i mean i don't know it's just totally wackadoo. But because these three people managed to escape, he was arrested pretty quickly in Albany. And he pleaded guilty to sexual assault and was sentenced to five to 10 years this time and was transferred to a maximum security prison in New York. He wasn't even like on the run after these things.

He would just go home to the address that the police already had on file for him. Correct. Oh, God. Wow. OK. Yeah. I mean, this time I feel like he's not thinking it through that like this is bad. I mean, he's literally like 18.

So it's like, what do they say? Your fucking frontal lobe isn't even formed yet. Like it's a teenager, which already the decision making you have to question. And then on top of it, all this illegal and horrible assault and shit. It's like, well, this is just a recipe for disaster. So in prison, Harvey was once again evaluated by mental health professionals. And this time he was diagnosed with antisocial traits, psychopathic personality, sexually perverted impulses, which again, the 40s, sexually perverted meant a totally different thing, you know, especially when it comes like medical terminology. I'm pretty sure for a long time, being gay was a perversion, right? Like in the books.

long time being gay was a perversion right like in the books so just one book just one book actually i think a lot a lot of books a lot of books um so yeah it's like we just don't know like three different doctors have already diagnosed him with multiple different things and have all contradicted one another we don't fucking know what the deal is. But either way, Harvey was a habitual offender against women. And that much we do know. In prison, just like he had in high school, interestingly, he followed all the rules and he excelled. And the prison guards loved him because he just did what they said. And he was a grade A prisoner. And so when he was 21 years old, he was paroled. i feel like behavior i feel like was he yeah i feel like if there aren't women around of course he's going to have good behavior

because right the people he wants to hurt aren't around and also i'm sure there's something there about like the male gaze of like like having men think you're great and wanting to kiss up to them or like feeling like you're uh like they are scarier and stronger and more dominant and so you can you yield faster or i don't know like and it always it seems like he was always able to blend in in that way even when he was socially awkward he was at least getting a's he was in extracurriculars he was in boy scouts yeah so like even before he knew like oh i want to i want something out of this. I want to get out of prison. Like he always was following the rules and like sticking to societal norms. Yeah. Like within those boundaries. So it's kind of weird. It almost to me, I can see why back then somebody would have said split personality because it seems almost like during the day you know only around men he's shockingly not a sexual abuser yeah yeah yeah and what did uh bta call it like factor x like oh it's not me it's like a totally separate thing

you know right and so i'm sure that was probably part of it too um but either way he was paroled because he was such a good boy in prison um and he was released to the custody of his parents once again and he moved back to denver with his mother back to their family home so per the conditions of his custody he also had to get a full-time job and remain in contact with the court system and he was subject to inspections for four and a half years by his parole officer. In 1952, which would have been four years later, Harvey's father died from complications related to diabetes. And this made it really hard on his mother. She had to kind of suddenly foot all the bills, suddenly make, you know, put food on the table for her and her son, who she was in charge of now. And because Harvey was at the end of his parole conditions, he decided he was ready to move out

of his mom's house and kind of get out from under her wing. So he had so far managed to put a pause on stalking and attacking women during this period where he was living with his mother okay he didn't even break and enter during this time like he just bare minimum good job man i know wow i didn't even rob anybody blue fucking ribbon and we're all so proud of you we don't know if that was because he knew like his parole officer was watching we don't know if that was because he knew like his parole officer was watching. We don't know if that was like living with his mom and losing his dad. Like we don't know why, but who cares? He just stopped doing it.

And unfortunately he started up again in January of 1957. He is now 30 years old and he decides he finally has this freedom. He finally gets to do what he wants. He's not under the thumb of the court system and he moves he finally has this freedom he finally gets to do what he wants he's not under the thumb of the court system and he moves to los angeles so it was in los angeles where harvey ultimately escalated his crimes from just sadism and sexual assault to murder like i said he had done some extracurriculars in high school as a perfectly normal little boy, and he got back into photography in L.A. Right. And that seems to be like a fitting lifestyle choice if you're moving to L.A. in the 50s. And if you have some like adjacent voyeurism abilities.

Uh-huh. Yes. Yes, exactly. And so it was like the perfect cover like the yeah like the perfect hobby quote-unquote to take up for him he advertised himself as a legitimate professional photographer seeking models and he told them these would be sexual but fully clothed photo shoots for pulp magazines so he would basically tell women i work for a pulp magazine and they're you know basically i don't know if you've seen these kind of photos from back then but like they would have women kind of in like a in bondage sort of and they'd be but they'd still have clothes on like they weren't in the nude but this was just kind of a thing. This was one of the things back then in the magazine, in the dirty magazines. So he tells models, hey, we're going to do this, but don't worry.

You can be fully clothed, but I am going to tie you up. And it's just a photo shoot for the magazine I work for. In August of 1957, he reached out to Judy, whose full name is Judith Ann Dull, and she was a 19-year-old model who lived with two other young models in LA, and the three of them were really close and helped each other find work as often as possible. She was estranged from her soon-to-be ex-husband and was very overwhelmed by the stress of a messy divorce. And on top of that, her soon-to-be ex-husband was also trying to take sole custody of their 14-month-old daughter, Susan. And he had actually come to her home and taken Susan while she was

working and left a note saying, like, I'll see you in court. So she's in like just utter turmoil and her ex has taken her baby and she is low on funds and just trying to make it and trying to get out of this messy relationship. So she's trying to make some money to fund her legal battle and prove that she could support her daughter and because she was a beautiful young woman and modeling was all the rage uh she was able to get a good amount of money modeling doing gigs in la okay so when she hears from harvey who used the pseudonym johnny glenn uh he seemed perfect classy perfectly normal perfectly friendly he actually came and met her roommates and they all said, yeah, he seems like a great guy. And he takes her to his studio for the photo shoot.

He had actually outfitted his apartment to look like a studio. And he basically claimed the shoot was for this detective magazine and she had to be tied up and kind of look like a, what do you call it? A damsel in distress. And that was kind of the vibe, like, oh, just look scared. I'll tie you up. So he ties her up and gags her. And of course, now he has her exactly where he wants her. And he turns and when he

turns back he's holding a gun and at first she's confused she's like wait is this part of it like is that a prop is that like right is that a prop like what is going on here but very quickly she realizes no no her life is in danger he rapes her multiple times at gunpoint uh and then he forced her into his car uh drove her out to the desert and strangled her with rope and he left her body there and and he thought leaving her body out there he said no one will ever find her it's so remote of course it's not quite what happened so like down the fucking street i mean judy's friends and roommates were like hey where the hell is judy also we literally met you like that's wild that he didn't have like a disguise that's almost so cocky so cocky that you can get away with it and he was getting away with

multiple mug shots out there right it's not like oh there's no photo evidence of him anywhere like the police i mean at least in albany and denver have mug shots of this guy but yeah i guess a fake name is all he needed so judy's friends and roommates of course immediately get concerned when she doesn't come home um and of course because she is a beautiful young woman uh this is a very compelling news story and journalists are putting this story on the front page along with her missing case and when her ex-husband was quickly ruled out uh detectives were like okay we'll look into this johnny glenn fella but there was just nothing they could do like even though also his name was fake like they couldn't even look him up his name was fake exactly and like they didn't really have much else to go on so of course harvey is like great at it again and he next pursues this is why he

has this name ads for singles of the lonely hearts club uh He joins this LA club where people who are seeking companionship, you know, put themselves out there. And this is where he arranges a blind date with 24-year-old divorcee Shirley Ann Bridgeford. And Shirley had two sons under the age of five. She really wanted to date someone who was serious about a relationship and becoming a parent to her kids and when she heard that harvey who was now using the name george williams wanted to take her out for a date she was very excited very nervous and she arranged for him to pick her up at home where her mother her two sisters and her brother-in-law all came to meet him and sign off before oh my god so he is seriously pulling off this like good boy like following this is almost

weirdly like it's it's like so stupid it just might work you know what i mean like it's like outrageous he's meeting the entire extended family i feel like i just watch a lot of law and order and i feel like if they had someone who was just showing up everywhere with his face so obviously in like how is how is he not being caught this is i mean it's it's pretty wild and i i i don't know i imagine being in la probably helped because i feel like it was just a looser place in the 50s you know and like especially in a world of like free of like um of gigs like gig work like photography and modeling I imagine there's just a lot of like moving parts moving people um fake names too probably uh so yeah I'm not sure but whatever he was doing unfortunately was really working because all of them, all of her family said, this guy seems legit.

George, nice to meet you. And she got in his car and he took her on a date. So in the car, the plan originally was to go dancing together. But in the car, Harvey said, hey, why don't we go out for a dinner and take a little drive instead? So she says, I mean, all right right and he takes her to the desert and that is not the if someone of all the locations in los angeles if someone said let's go for a drive and they took me to a desert i'd be like turn around you missed something forget it where's the view i was gonna say that the the americana is back to say that the Americana is back there. The AMC is back there.

I don't want to leave any further than this. So he took her out to the desert. And of course, at this point, she knows things are not good. He rapes her at gunpoint. He forces her to pose for photographs, which is just deeply troubling to me and uh then he strangled her to death like he had with judy and he took photos of that as well so he and interestingly i learned something which i did not realize and i kind of embarrassed i didn't know this but i guess there are two forms of um so you know how you say like oh a serial killer takes a trophy home i guess in this

case it's not a trophy because a trophy is actually meant as like a brag like to show off what you've done oh almost as like a like a haha got him yeah but this is more something for his own like secret pleasure later like he wasn't gonna show show this anyone or share it um which i guess is a different thing from a trophy so i didn't realize that but fun fact for you in the worst way so shirley's family of course report her missing and are like um this guy named george came over and took her on a date and she never came back and police are like well that sounds a whole lot like our friend johnny glenn so ding ding ding ding ding ding i think we're we're putting this together um but of course they have no way to track them track him down like there's just nothing they can do with these fake

names and so they suspected all they could do is suspect he would kill again and wait until he did and that is exactly what happened so this time harvey targeted another model, 24 year old Ruth Mercado. And Ruth was born in New York. She had served in the women's air force before she was honorably discharged and relocated to California. And people described her as kind and reliable. She was hustling out there. She was trying to make it in the film industry. as a mexican woman she had dark hair dark complexion and at the time you know it's probably still definitely still you know the industry is prioritizing light-skinned blonde women and so at the time she was not considered an all-american girl in the traditional sense that you might see as you know in a modeling gig oh yeah so she was struggling she was trying

to make it as an actress and uh you know uphill battle and so to support herself she modeled on the side and she found pretty good success in the modeling world and when she heard from harvey uh under an assumed name again uh i don't know what name this time. I can only imagine it's Bob Smith or something stupid. He entered her house under the pretense of a photo shoot. And like Judy and Shirley, Harvey raped her, forced Ruth into his car at gunpoint, photographed her in the desert, and then strangled her. So he has found himself like a pretty solid MO at this point. Yes, yes, yes, yes yes it's like it's all kind of condensed into these steps now yes with the desert the drive the car

everything so harvey this is disturbing and maybe goes to what you were saying about like what is going on in his head uh he later said he really liked shirley and he tried to talk himself out of murdering her, but he just couldn't manage. Oh, my God. Like. Couldn't manage. He couldn't manage to talk himself out of it. Like, couldn't out-logic himself. Yeah.

Or, like, he had the urge or, like, ugh. I think it meant. Yeah, that's true. It's not totally clear. I'm pretty sure it was more like, well, I just couldn't think of another way. You know, I couldn't convince myself of any other way to like spare her life. I just knew I had to do it. Is the, at least the.

I don't understand how an option is to just like not do this to people. I don't understand how like. I know. They've just said like, well, I'm backed in a corner. It's like, you're literally not. It's like you walked into that corner, you idiot. Yeah. You created the corner.

It's this like compulsion, like this, like, ooh, I don't know. I don't know. It's something hopefully we'll never have to understand, you know? Yeah. So some time went by before Ruth's landlord noticed her mail was piling up. Um, and when he let himself into her apartment, he found her dog and bird nearly dead from neglect. Thankfully they survived, but of course that's horrifying.

Um, Ruth became another missing person's case with absolutely no leads because this time there wasn't like the whole family to meet george before like there was a line of people that like showed up to shake his hand right and even then they didn't have a lead but so now you know they definitely don't have another lead and so all detectives can do is note how similar this case is to Judy's. But they still have nothing. You know, they're sure at this point Judy and Shirley are dead. They assume Ruth must also be dead.

And, of course, because this is what they do, he kept on going. 28-year-old Lorraine Vigil had just signed on with a modeling agency in LA. And apparently she decided this is a kind of weird intersection of his serial killer names or MO because she was very lonely and decided to start modeling as a way to meet people. And so when Diane, who worked at the modeling agency, reached out, she said, OK, just a heads up. There's this guy out there using fake names and murdering women. Wow. Yeah. OK.

And she said, Lorraine, just be alert. You know, this is a scary industry. Don't if like trust your gut. Don't you know. Don't get abducted by this crazy man. So, of course, she gets a call from Harvey. Oh, I'm sorry. Frank is now his name. Oh, oh, okay.

My mistake. So Frank arrives to pick Lorraine up and she says, can you show me an ID? Good for her. To confirm your identity. I know. and she says can you show me an id good for her to confirm your identity i know but of course harvey being ever so cunning uh makes up excuses about why he doesn't have one with him and lorraine gives in to her sort of like polite side or her you know uh i need money side or what have you uh and when i went against her gut judgment and left with him got in his car so they were supposed to go interestingly to diane's

the woman who called from the modeling agency at her studio to do a shoot but pretty quickly um lorraine realized something was wrong because harvey aka frank tells her there's a change of plans we have to go to my studio instead so now she's thinking oh god i already had a bad feeling about this yeah and now he's saying we're going to his house or his studio so she said she noticed that things were really wrong when he began speeding down the highway, like really fast. And she thought, shit, like this guy has bad intentions. And he wasn't answering any of her questions. Oh, that's terrifying.

I can't even imagine. Terrifying. Just sitting next to someone who's. Who's just like speeding the car away from any safety. Who can tell that you're freaking out and isn't like reassuring you. Yes, exactly. It's just, ooh. So at this point point she's even

considering like can i jump out of the car yeah when he slows down at a red light get out yeah yeah is there any way for me to get out of this um but before she could you know figure that out harvey abruptly pulled off the road claiming he had a flat tire and of course he did not he jumped out brandished his gun and told lorraine he was an ex-con who would kill her if she didn't cooperate. So at this point, she has no choice. He ties her up with both hands and she kind of realizes, wait, he's tying with both his hands. He's not holding his gun. Good girl.

I know. So she turns to try to take it from him and he goes to grab it. They begin struggling for the gun. Harvey is cussing at Lorraine. She's sob grab it they begin struggling for the gun harvey's cussing at lorraine she's sobbing of course and the gun goes off and it shoots her in the thigh oh fortunately just a graze and okay just a graze but you know thankfully no femoral artoration right right right right nothing lethal so it grazed her thigh and this part also goes into the psychology like what the fuck is going on with this guy he was somehow horrified that she had been shot and

he exclaimed i shot you yes dumbass what what the fuck is going on so at this point lorraine bamboozled he's so fucking bamboozling. When you said earlier, like, hey, what's his thing? I'm like, Tony, I don't don't ask me that. That really does feel again like an 18 year old who doesn't really want to do this part, but like feels like he has to. It's like, what? I got you with a gun that I was holding against you. I didn't mean to hurt your leg.

Like, OK, I was just going to strangle you to death. I mean, if I were if i were with somebody and they act that surprised that they shot me i would take that as permission of like oh this guy doesn't want to shoot me now i'm gonna kick his ass like yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah so basically she did take that moment she was like okay this this is my fucking moment and she bolts she's been shot in the leg remember okay but she i love women i know i know and it's like so horrifying that the world is this way and continues in a lot of ways to be like this but oh my gosh i mean so she fucking runs for it and harvey chases after her and actually

like out of a horror movie like tackles her to the ground oh my god and now they're wrestling again and Lorraine manages to pull the gun from him and just right as this is happening a highway patrolman happens to be driving past thank god I know it's like the thing you always wish would happen in a movie like this but never does well it does happen in a movie and then you find out that he's the accomplice oh right true yeah yikes okay thankfully that's not like this at all so the highway patrolman is driving down the road sees them struggling and pulls over to intervene so lorraine is able to break free thankfully run to the to the officer and she tells him harvey was trying to kill me um hands this officer harvey's gun because remember she has gotten her hands on it and so he's fucking screwed he is arrested immediately um there's nowhere for him to go she has his gun

now the police officer has his gun and pretty quickly he surrenders and he tells the patrolman when he asks uh that he wasn't sure and this again bamboozling he wasn't sure whether he planned to rape lorraine but he might have i feel like that's the closest thing to a lie he was able to concoct it's like we know exactly what your plan was exactly like you absolutely were planning to rape her and also on top of that murder her so nice try yeah um but of course lorraine um well deserved became like this sensational story of you know heroism and she tells reporters that she knew something was off about harvey but she kept reassuring herself that you know no she was probably overreacting so you know that's when you get gift of fear

Gavin DeBecker you know the whole I was waiting for it I know I know see something say something had to be had to be said but man that gut that instinct that reptilian brain that lizard brain of yours is uh is is pretty powerful so uh you know listen up so she later said I did not become alarmed until we entered the Santa Ana freeway and he began driving at a tremendous speed. He wouldn't answer my questions or even look at me. So chilling. Oh, I got goose cam just saying it again. And of course, that's when she began jumping or considering jumping out of the car, didn't get the chance to and then made her brave escape.

didn't get the chance to and then made her brave escape so in custody harvey tried to convince authorities that his attack on lorraine was just totally impulsive and it was not premeditated whatsoever but as he went over how and why he decided to attack her it became pretty fucking obvious that uh he was very experienced unfortunately in abductions and assault and they were like okay this is not a one time thing with this guy. Not your first rodeo. Not his first rodeo. So they hook him up to a polygraph and ask him about Ruth. And like a fucking child, immediately he comes clean and panics and is like, yeah, you're right.

I did it. And all of it feels childish. I mean, even when he shot her and he's like, oh, no. Like and it's like or feels so like when when the cop showed up and he's like oh no like and it's like or it feels so or like when when the cop showed up and all of a sudden he like didn't even know how to lie he was like i mean i i might have like so yeah the second they're like it's a lie detector he's like oh no you know i mean he really he still has like a child's brain like yeah that's what it feels like that's what it feels like and he's in his 30s at this point so he panics he comes clean

and he actually thought the police had already searched his house and discovered the metal toolbox where he kept the photos of his previous victims but he just said it he in fact they said i'm sorry you're what and uh i mean he was like i don't know again basically yeah and they said okay well well i guess we'll go find it so they did so he thought oh i'm foiled they've caught me and he told them everything they he said i i killed ruth and i killed shirley and judy and they were you already knew that and yeah exactly but you already saw the toolbox in my basement it's like wait what yeah so you know of course nobody had discovered yet, but now they knew what to look for. And they did quickly uncover his photographs along with his items that he had stolen, like underwear and other things that I in the past would have said were trophies.

But I guess they're now like, I don't know, mementos. Yeah. And so he didn't seem like to answer your earlier question remorseful about the crimes um he basically said the same thing i've said over and over that he he didn't he he thought he regretted killing the women right he's like oh i wish i didn't have to do that right he almost felt like oh that was an inconvenience rather than like actually regret poor thing yeah right and so he basically said like well I didn't have a choice like that's his logic you know like I could be identified last time I let someone go they

arrested me so that's yeah and then I guarantee just in his own head he's gone that stupid bitch what a yeah right right right she betrayed me We watched comedies together under the blankets. It's like fucking twisted. So the only person he truly seemed to regret hurting was his mother, who just try as she might had really tried to push him in the right direction. But was now devastated to learn of Harvey's crimes. Still at it. And her name was Ophelia Glattman. And she, as we can probably guess,

has always downplayed how bad things were with her son. You know, despite knowing about the assaults on women because he had gone to jail for them and pleaded guilty, when she found out about the murders she was said to have yelled oh my god in heaven not my boy he was always so good he never hurt anybody girl like there is definitely a uh lying lying to yourself thing happening there's a there's a denial that i can denial yes that's the big word I was looking for. Definitely denial. But I mean, you know, she had one son.

Her husband has passed. Like, ugh. It's got to be guilt inducing to think, oh, I knew something was up. You know, you don't want to admit to yourself, I knew I could have, you know, I could have probably said something or done something. You have a guilt. Yikes. Yeah. Yikes.

But of course, there are photographs and there is no way she can talk herself out of this You know, I could have probably said something or done something. Got a guilt. Yikes. Yeah. Yikes. But of course, there are photographs and there is no way she can talk herself out of this one. Like, no denying this one. So Harvey continued by leading. Sorry, that's not a sentence, Jack. So Harvey went even further. He led police to the site of the murders and they were able to recover. Fortunately, the skeletal remains of Ruth and Shirley. And Harvey was once again medically evaluated and it was determined

that he was not mentally ill once again and could determine right from wrong. So all of them are out the window and now there's nothing wrong with him except he's a serial killer. Yeah, except he's a serial killer. So Harvey not only accepted his guilt, he actually requested that he not be spared from the death penalty. He requested that he be put to death. And he was on September 18th, 1959. And so. Do you feel like that was his last attempt at control, though? Like, I feel like he ended up just getting what he wanted.

That's a great point, because, like, with Richard Ramirez, who overdosed in jail, intentionally overdosed and took his own life, and with Israel Keys, it was more of a power move than anything else. It's like, well, if I'm going to be here anyway, at least I get to make the say. Yeah, I guess, yeah, I guess the more apt comparison is Israel Keys. Yeah. Like like a now you'll now you won't know everything like I'm taking it to the grave. So that could very well be. It seemed like he definitely had a power struggle and a lot of resentment toward his peers and toward women. So he was executed on September, although I feel like with Israel Keyes, it was suicide before he was executed. You know, I feel like the power, usually the power move is like to die by suicide in these cases because you're like taking your own life. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know.

I don't know. Psychologists? Weigh in. Weigh in. Jordan? Oh, gosh. don't know i don't know psychologist weigh in weigh in jordan oh gosh okay so he like i said was ultimately executed in 1959 now we fast forward to 2008 okay this is nearly 50 years later colorado investigators announced they suspected harvey in an unsolved murder of a jane doe whose identity they suspected was a young missing woman

named katherine e farrand dyer and when they looked into this and they announced they thought he was the suspect they were looking at katherine was like um hi i'm here i'm alive and well and in my 80s and living in Australia. And so they're like, okay, that's great. We're so happy that you're alive and well. But who the fuck is a Jane Doe? Now we're back to square one. Exactly. There's another person who's missing and an unknown. And so, you know, they had to start over. Not start over, but they had to really go deeper. They had to go deeper.

really go deeper they'd go deeper go deeper and uh the remains themselves had been discovered in 1954 having been abandoned and stripped of her clothes and it matched you know the mo and the timeline of when harvey was was running around and this is when he would have been living in denver so it matches the area as well. Investigators actually believe that she might have, in fact, been his first ever victim. Okay. So eventually the Jane Doe was fortunately identified. There was this woman named Michelle Fowler who was determined to track down her missing great aunt. And she had never met her.

Her name was Dorothy Gay Howard. And she had never met her. Her name was Dorothy Gay Howard, and she had vanished when she was 18 years old. And so, you know, fast forward to 08, Michelle Fowler is like, I would like to figure out what happened to this missing person in my family tree. And so she began cold calling women with her aunt's name in the phone book. But like time and time again, it was was not her aunt so eventually she came across this story about jane doe and she reached out to a local historian named sylvia pedum who said why don't we do a dna test fucking dna for the win yet again yet again love it so sylvia the the local historian had previously raised money to actually exhume this Jane Doe's remains. And that's how Michelle like stumbled upon this whole story.

And so they took, she had already taken the DNA test of the Jane Doe. And so now Michelle was able to take a DNA test. And, you know, at first they were hesitant about it because she wasn't, Michelle wasn't, but her family was because they actually all believed that Dorothy was alive somewhere. OK. And they had sort of just hoped that like she had left kind of maybe a toxic family relationship or.

Yeah, they still had the hope. Yeah, they had the hope that like, oh, well, things didn't work out, but she's OK. She's happy. Yeah. Yeah. They didn't want to know the hope. Yeah. They had the hope that like, oh, well, things didn't work out, but she's okay and happy somewhere. Yeah. Yeah. They didn't want to know the truth. Yeah. So they were a little scared to find out. And so when they did the DNA test, it was in fact confirmed that it was Dorothy.

That's rough. And so one of them said, just to give you an example, my dad died thinking she was going to come and see him again there was just a lot of like fear of knowing you know the truth and have no deal with that yeah and i imagine that was a very difficult time and i also imagine it was probably i i hope at least that it was healing in some way you know to like know the real story and to put her to rest um but it must be shocking to learn she died at 18 years old. And you've thought maybe she was alive this whole time. So that must have been very jarring.

But authorities remain convinced that Harvey was likely Dorothy's killer. But the lack of evidence, especially now that so much time has passed, makes it nearly impossible to really determine whether he was the one who did it. But, you know, circumstantially, the pieces absolutely add up. And I wonder, I wonder, I mean, I'm sure they've looked into this, but like that toolbox of photos, I'm like, maybe he just hadn't taken photo started the photos yet. Or maybe they were tamer, like maybe he was only taking like, abstract, like, maybe like of just like a body part or something. Or like of a rope or like of a piece of clothing.

Like something that was kind of. He definitely gives me the vibe that he thinks he's fucking deep and brooding. Artsy as shit. Just like fucking poet BTK. Like what's going on with these guys? You know he would have read the poem and been like, now this guy fucking knows what he's talking about. I feel like he would have been like, this loser thinks he's an artist oh yeah i could look at my pictures of those narcissists like there's not room for both of them to be geniuses great point that's a great point and

that is my psychological assessment of the situation you know what i would like eventually i would like for you to write me an didn't you write me a poem recently was it for cryptid poetry slam oh you wrote me something did you write me a poem probably but someone wrote me a poem or was that a dream you had maybe i just really want you to write me a poem i mean obviously i'm getting the hint okay i only have no five months to the day no six months to the day it No, six months to the day. It's January. Wait, no. Five months to write you a poem. Whatever you would write, just know it would be better than BTK. Honestly, that is somehow reassuring and also somehow insulting. I don't know. I'm just saying you could suck and it would be better than him.

Okay, that's great. As long as it's not the other way around, I guess. Would you like a poem or what would you like in return? Well you will barter you get me a poem and i'll get you something i love a limerick maybe i wrote you a limerick that's the next thing i would do okay we can write each other limericks that'd be great there was a podcaster named m who kept poking at their own phlegm oh shit oh my god listen i'm telling you i i i'll have to think about it a little longer than you really just fucking free flowed like listen like nikki minaj are you here i don't know like it's 2024 anything is possible what high hopes let's replay this one day when it's not january 3rd and it's much later into the year.

I, okay. When you were like, anything's possible. I know. Yikes. Big, big, big, bold statement to make three days in. But you know what? Patreon, we're actually currently adding a bunch of fun stuff or like at least, you know, tossing around some fun little new bits and segments.

Maybe one of these days I'll complete the limerick and I'll videotape it and it'll be, I'll put it on Patreon. We should do a limerick contest and people can finish can finish the limerick for us okay now that's fun okay patreon do some work write a poem there was a cryptid in kentucky uh her name was christine and she was lucky. Something, something, something, something, something about losing your wallet. But then finding it, that's the lucky part. Yeah. Wait, wait, we'll do. There is a girl from, there's a cryptid in Kentucky who was always very unlucky.

Yeah. Something, something, something, something. She can never find her wallet. Good one. Okay. Unlucky. She. Wallet.

Ballin. She waltzed in a store and went right out the door, forgetting she. What was it supposed to be? Oh, wait, it has to rhyme with Kentucky Unlucky. Oh. Doesn't it? Forgetting she, Oh, wait, it has to rhyme with Kentucky and Lucky. Oh. Doesn't it? Forgetting her identity.

What the fucky. Okay. Sure. Listen, again, I wanted to quit while I was ahead with that first half of a limerick and then not fuck up the rest. But I'm going to come up with a good one. I'm going to finish it. But I do have two bullet points left so sorry to barge back in on the sad stuff but um you know i guess it's somewhat redeeming that at least we know who this jane doe is even though we cannot necessarily confirm that um harvey was her killer. At least we know her name and they were able to put their family member to rest.

So in 2009, Marlene, who was Dorothy's sister, told reporters, I'm sorry in a way that my parents never found out what happened to her, but I'm also relieved they didn't find out how she died. So I think there was a lot of like conflicting emotions about that. And she also expressed her gratitude to the citizens of Boulder, Colorado, who had donated their own money to bury the Jane Doe and to put up a headstone.

And she said, please thank them for taking care of her. They must be very nice people. And so that is the story of Harvey Glattman, the Glamour Girl Slayer. I mean, Jesus Christ. Glamour Girl Slayer. It does sound like an 80s slasher movie. Yeah, it's an annoying thing to say out loud. I always, you know, when we first started this podcast, I loved when people had a nickname and now I just don't want them to have it.

You know, I want them to have earned it in some way. i just don't want them to have it you know i know i've earned it in some way right it's like well they probably like having this they fucking larger than life identity yeah if we wrote a limerick about him he would lose his mind which is why i'm gonna stick with the shifter i'll talk okay like let's not wing it because that could go really bad wait i think i have an ending oh for what there there was a cryptid in kentucky okay i'm gonna fix the i'll fix the um the syntax because it's a little off which what is it there was a there was a there once was a girl in kentucky or there sure there once was a girl in kentucky okay who was always very unlucky who felt she was always unlucky. Okay.

Thank you. What was the store door one? She went into a store, then went right out the door. Because she left her wallet at Bucky's. At Bucky's! Oh my god! Okay, we did it. Em, you're a fucking genius.

Could you tell that when we wrote a book, Christine had to do all of my grammar edits? Because I... But that's what I love. But then Em added all the funny stuff. So it was like a perfect combo. It was like, Em's the funny one. And I'm like, actually, that's not how you spell there. Not that you ever actually fucked that up.

But I literally, I don't know why I never learned grammar. And the way that I speak is so grammatically incorrect. And I... It's not that. No, I don't think so. I think my tone or my tempo or whatever, everything is always a run on sentence. I mean, I think that's probably normal for most. I think that's normal.

I think I'm just, again, mentally unwell in a way that somehow only gives me the gift of good grammar and spelling. I think it's just a side effect of all the the bad parts well anyway everyone i'm very glad that we finished our limerick bucky's if you're willing to put them on for us i mean that was good um brava like i bet i wonder if anyone out there was like you just said she went into a gas station bucky's is a store no i know i know i know but i'm saying like i wonder if anyone was like hello bucky's like i wonder if anyone else put it together but i sure didn't so you really blew my socks off just now

thank you okay well next oh are we gonna we're not gonna be at a bucky's anytime soon are we okay how about this what there once was a girl in kentucky who felt she was always unlucky she walked into a store and then right out the door she had left her whole wallet at bucky's yeah perfect so now we're gonna you have a cricket machine and i know you have a bucky's koozie holy shit or no you should get you oh next time we're there you should get like one of their little wallets at bucky's and then put that that limerick and put your cricket limerick on there listen it's x it's it's genius and also like i don't know about who felt she was always she was fucking unlucky thank you like she was always on luck it wasn't even felt unlucky you're obviously with evidence unlucky okay well it doesn't work with the syntax.

So you know what? I'm going to find a different verb. I'm going to find a different verb. Who everyone knew was unlucky. Oh, that's good. Okay. That's good. That's very good.

That's very good. Excellent. You're fucking nailing it. Thank you. Everyone, if you would like to see us live for some reason, you can. Why wouldn't you? You can find us on tour. by the time you're listening to this we've already finished our first leg and i don't know how we did i hope we did good um i oh you

know what else is perfect about our limerick oh okay bucky's just opened their first kentucky location and i've been there we can go together yeah but like also the thing was about a girl in kentucky and they just opened a kentucky location i mean how perfect so it actually works now like story-wise it actually like it like there's no plot holes uh-huh uh-huh okay is it near you what yeah uh no it's like an hour and a half away so it's near you i mean yeah it's near enough like let's fucking go exactly but put an air tag on me first. No, I'm just going to tape one to your wallet.

Just tape it to my body, maybe. I don't know. If you would like to come see our show, we still have some tickets left. Go to our website, and that's waydrink.com. And come see us live. This is everyone's last chance at seeing our On the Rocks tour before the fall when we have a new tour out. So, um, come see us.

Please. We would love it. Even if we faint on stage. That's why we drink.