And That's Why We Drink - E371 Warnings About File Organizing and Smooth Coffee Shop Compliments

Episode Date: March 17, 2024

It's episode 371 and we're wishing you a happy belated Leap Day! We celebrate privately, not necessarily by leaping around, though. This week Em brings us a doozy of a creepy woo-woo cult in the Twin Flames Ascension School, as well as the background on soul mates and twin flames in general. Then Christine covers an incredible story of survival in the case of Holly K. Dunn. And join us on Patreon if you want to see us attempt to be psychic... and that's why we drink!Don't miss our very last few On the Rocks live shows! andthatswhywedrink.com/live 

You are so pretty. Oh, did you say that because that clip came out where you didn't come out where you said I looked like shit? No, I meant it when I said it probably. You did. You did. You stood by it, but thank you. I showered last night, so my hair is clean. You're welcome.

Very nice. What did I do last night? Oh, oh, I organized my little shelf right here. There's a shelf. How exciting. Yep. Yep. But it has, she's been dusty.

And so I, it was like a, and you know, I like my tchotchkes. I got a lot of things. And so it ends up, ADHD is so funny because I like, I so desperately crave, well, it's funny in a way where like, if you laugh, at least you're not crying. In a sick way, in a sick way. I like all my little things, all my little trinkets. And so that makes it harder later because I'm always hyper-fixing, I'm buying these

little things and impulse spending. And then to clean means to take every little thing off and have to dust every little thing. And then it makes you like want to clean even less. So I have a bunch of things. They were all needing a bath. So we have, we did a little late night cleaning. It took two episodes of Lawn Order, but we did it. Oh, that's not bad.

I was, I was going, I was going pretty quick. I don't think so. Yeah, that feels like pretty, pretty quick. I feel like I would, I get, I don't know. I don't even want to show you. I was going to show you my office. I feel like I would I get I don't know. I don't even want to show you. I was going to show you my office. I started organizing and it looks, you know, when you start some, you know, but like you start a project and then like it's such a big project

that like it gets so, so much worse before it ever gets better. Mm hmm. It's bad. Like, it's really bad. Oh, why do you think for the last year I've been showing this background and not the one with the Captain America shield? Because it's a landmine in here. It's awful. It's not happening. It's bad. And then I keep wanting to buy stuff to organize,

but then I just have more stuff. And more boxes you have to break down and more plastic. And then you have to bring out the tools and then the toolboxes. Minders and folders. I organize all our paperwork. God, we're so old and boring. Jesus Christ. I am.

Who cares? I'm like, I'm going to organize my files. I mean, you know what? Either people that are listening are going through it right now, have gone through it because they're older than us or younger and we're just serving as a warning that this will become you. Yeah, this is your future. It's useful no matter who's listening.

I have a few reasons why I drink Christine. Oh, good. Tell me everything. One is a good one. And I wanted to give a shout out to this person because I feel very bad. Usually when I get recognized in public, I like have some wherewithal to like talk back to them and like start a conversation with them.

But they caught me in the middle of like a phone call and I was just really frazzled. Today? No, no, no, this was, well, I guess it was yesterday cause I got my little drinky. No, no, no, this was um, well, I guess it was yesterday because I got this I got my little drinky Um I went to my local coffee shop where they know my name I'm very proud of that

I know their names and they know my order. I'm very proud of it. I can't ever move. Um, and so I've always wanted i've always wanted that little experience. So now that i've got it. Yeah, I get that I mean my coffee shop knows my dog's name. So I'm just pretty much content with that. Yeah. Well, so I was standing in line. I was on the phone with my mom, but I was in a coffee shop. So I really couldn't hear her.

I don't think she could hear me because she was on a bus. So it was the worst time to be on a phone. And I was waiting for my drink to get called. And in line there was this person who had really lovely, like Disney style hair, like red, but like clearly like dyed red, but like professionally dyed red. Clearly dyed red, that's nice.

Well, cause it wasn't like, you know what I mean? Cause like it wasn't like, it didn't look natural. It had like the like, it had like, I don't know. Like not like, I'm not saying like, oh, it was box died. Yuck. I'm saying it was like this vibrant color that like humans don't throw out of their head. And it was like big and fluffy. I kept staring at it.

And when I went by to grab my drinks, I was like, I'm going to say something. And I went, oh my God, I really love your hair. And she, they, I don't know their pronouns, turned around and went, Oh my God, I really love your hair. And she, they, I don't know their pronouns, turned around and went, Oh my God, I love your podcast. No. And I went, that was so fucking smooth. I was like, I don't even know how to respond.

And I definitely looked awkward. I definitely I like a meme like the Homer Simpson meme. I just backed away into the bushes and just walked out of the coffee shop because I was also on the phone with my mom. I had, I mean you had just given a compliment. It's not like you like ignored them or something. Like you, you initiated the conversation. I know, but usually after someone says they like my podcast,

I like make the effort to like say hi and like, you know, I'm, I'm aware that part of them might be thinking, Oh, they just spotted someone in the wild that they want to talk to. So I'm I'm aware that part of them might be thinking oh they just spotted someone in the wild that they've went want to talk to So I'm like I try to be kind about it and I just fucking Left and so I feel a little weird about that. So if you're listening, you're the reason why I drink I'm sorry. I didn't say hi And then the other one is I am going to be cleaning all day. So which we've already discussed. So Yeah, let's not go back to the cleaning. I can't I can't think about it anymore

Why do you drink Christine? Um, I don't know Happy leap day Why is there an extra movie day, I don't know There we go. Thank you. I drink. I day? I don't know. There we go. Thank you. That's why I drink. I've never. I don't know.

I've been in it. Do you practice privately or how do you? I do. Do you leap around? I do. I don't. I certainly don't leap. I haven't leapt anywhere in a long time, but no, you know, I guess I don't really have

a reason to drink except that, well, I guess I'll say the biggest one, which is going to sound really alarming. And I'm not trying to be alarming, but I have this... Oh, God. I'm already... I'll call the hospital. What? What?

It's not... Here's how it feels. I already told you about this. I just feel like this like sense of dread for the past six, five or six months, like something really big. Yeah, like someone's going to die. And I have been working for two sessions now in therapy only, because I've just started with this person, to figure out whether it's, well, she said we're not going to figure it out because that's not how this works,

but I'm trying to figure out whether it's a real thing, like a spiritual, like some sort of like intuitive knowing, or if it's my obsessive-compulsive disorder, back at it again, because it's very similar to how it might usually work. So I've just been in this weird head space where, like, every time I don't hear back from somebody or, like, get a, you know, get a weird feeling, I start, like, worrying something's wrong and that is not usually like me. I usually am not, like, very not like very worried about stuff

that I can't, you know, out of my- Who's the person these days you're scared of? I'm like scared to say it. I don't wanna like make a- Is it the person you've said behind closed doors to me? Yeah. Still, you haven't heard back? Oh no, no, I have heard back.

Well, I did, but other people, my family did. So I was like, okay, fine. That's fine by me. I don't care. They're alive, Yeah, so I was fine. I mean, I think everything's fine I just I'm feeling very weird lately and very like on edge which is exhausting and so I'm just like in this way. It feels like you know when you're waiting for the other shoe to drop sort of like But I don't know what the other shoe is So I'm like is there or even if there is another shoe, like maybe I'm just making it all up.

I don't know. So that's why I'm reading that book I talked about last time. I got to chapter three or four. I'm like so nervous that people are gonna be like, that is a, cause I like announced the name of the book. Yeah, like, I don't know. And I'm only two chapters in. Now I'm on like six chapter six, but it's a very woo woo.

Like it's like, oh, like open. I don't know. I was reading it last night. Is it IFS? Is that what you're talking about? No, it's called the untethered soul. And so I, you know, I like it a lot so far, but like give me, you know, take that with a grain of salt. Everyone again, I don't, I haven't finished it. I'm not even close to finishing it. But it is very- Didn't you say something about it,

that's, it's similar to IFS or we just talked about IFS and I don't remember in what context. Yeah, well, cause you said that you, that's something you were working on, but the idea is that you are kind of removing yourself. So yeah, the idea is basically that like, you are kind of removing your self. So yeah, the idea is basically that like, there is this like internal monologue like chatter and it's your own voice talking all the time incessant.

It does not stop. And the idea, I guess, from what I've gathered in this book is that you are supposed to, that the real you, you are the observer of that voice, like your soul, like your essence. Because essentially if you transplanted your consciousness into like say the body of somebody else, it would be a different internal monologue,

but you would still be perceiving it. It's so trippy. The point is you are not the little voice in your head, right, and the idea is like stop relying on that little voice. It doesn't know what it's talking about. It's like, if you listen to it, it says bullshit all day long. And then it just completely switches sides depending on how it feels. Like my example when, oh, we did a crossover, by the way, with live, laugh, larceny, everybody. It was so fun. I revealed like one of the biggest crimes of my life that I actually committed

I've never admitted publicly and so if that was really fun, so go check that out But I was clearly having like an existential crisis during that recording because I kind of went off the wall But I was saying I was listening to my voice because that's one of the pieces of this book is like start listening to it And that bitch does not shut the fuck up. She cannot stop talking. She does blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, on and on. And the book was like, imagine this person sitting next to you in the car, or imagine them talking to you and they never shut up. You're literally watching a movie and they're like,

oh, I should call Frank, or, oh, that car reminds me of the one I used to drive. If your friend were sitting there blabbing like that, you would never invite them again, right? But it's like, so you kind of have to find a way to like make, to realize that's not you. That's just like your blah blah blah blah, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk.

And it like, my example was I was driving down the street and I saw this mailbox and I went, what an ugly ass mailbox, like in my head. And then the same exact fucking voice in my head went, that wasn't very nice. Maybe they just really liked Valentine's Day and that's why they decorated their mailbox. And I was like, man, now I feel guilty

for bullying that person. Do you think karma is real? Hey, I wonder how Taylor Swift got that idea for karma. Like it literally is so out of control if you actually listen to it. It's like shocking how unhinged this voice is. And so you're trying to like notice that in your day-to-day life and separate yourself,

like realize that's not you, you know, and that's not like the truth of all. It's just some dumb voice that won't shut up. That's what I've gotten from five or six chapters. So I will update you and again, I'm sorry folks, take all of this with a grain of salt. I don't know much about the book or six chapters. So I will update you. And again, I'm sorry, folks take all of this with a grain of salt. I don't know much about the book or the author. Well, in some ways, the only reason I asked, I didn't mean to interrupt you on your own

journey about dread, but my dreadful journey, I was told to the IFS is controversial, which is what I'm doing. But I don't know how it's controversial. I have my own opinions on why it's controversial, but I'm currently ignoring all those reasons because it's fucking working. So, you know, yeah, take it with a grain of salt. It's, I, it works very well for me. I have, IFS helped me, helped me a lot

in like a very specific way with the phone anxiety thing, because it pulled like a very specific piece of me out that I was like, Oh, that's who's in there blabbing around. But yeah, I think this is a different thing. This is more just like your internal monologue dialogue with yourself that can be so crippling because it can like talk you out of things. It can like get you worked up. It can get you like changing your mind about things. You know what I mean? Like it's not your intuition. It's not your consciousness. It's not your soul. It's just like your brain taking all of it and blah,

blah, blah. And like commentating the world, narrating the world, which is once you notice it, it's incredibly annoying. And I guess he said like the pinnacle of meditation, which I want to start doing again, is when you like turn inward and your consciousness is noticing that you're conscious. It was like when yourself looks at itself, then you're like, really, you know, in the zone. It does sound like you walk right into like a tent

and never came out with a bunch of hippies. I know, I'm like, I was reading it like, I need to go to bed. I took a weird gummi. And I should probably reread this chapter tomorrow. But anyway, so that's where I'm at, just in a weird place. So that book was recommended to me because I've been like, oh, well,

I keep getting these thoughts. And so now I'm like, oh, okay. So a lot of those thoughts are probably just my brain being like, just like inserting itself and doesn't necessarily mean anything. Like it's just, you know, you can dismiss it. Like not everything from your own mind is like the truth or, you know, spiritual guidance. Sometimes it's just that annoying voice in your head. So I'm trying to, you know, spiritual guidance. Sometimes it's just that annoying voice in your head. So I'm trying to, you know, step back from that. But anyway, that's why I drink, sorry. That's a lot. Honestly, the sad part is, I guess,

we'll know in a few months if it was intuition or mental illness. So. Or both. Or both, maybe. Yeah, then that will. Have fun. Then we still won't know the answer.

But that's true. Yeah, that's a rough one. I mean, we talk about it in like a much more like general, maybe a more intense way on the show. But like in the world of like paranormal stuff, it's like a lot of people like you have to take it with a grain of salt because they might be thinking they're this big shot. And maybe it's actually just like a hidden mental thing. So that's, that's the thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

It's very timely that you mentioned that because I have a story for you. You do? Tell me everything. For the 371st time I have a story for you. I can't believe I have a story for you. Wow. And you're so surprised. I can't believe I didn't see it coming. This is a somewhat of a cult, a metaphysical cult. Oh my God.

And I think you'll like it a lot because there's at least a lot to banter off of, Christine. If nothing else, we have the ability to banter. I mean, honestly, if nothing else in this world, we still have that, so that's good. But we would find a way. Well, yeah. You can't stop us.

So this is the cult of twin flames. Have you heard of twin flames? Oh my god, yes. I've watched the whole docuseries. It's crazy. Oh, okay, great. Well, then you can chime in anytime. Oh my gosh, this feels like a crime story. Why are you doing this one? This feels like a crime story. You know, I had this on my list, so I should take that off.

Did you? Oh, yeah. Well, take it up with Saoirse. I don't know. Okay, I will. I mean, I think it's because originally the concept of Twin Flames is something that's like not necessarily crime-y. I think it's like it's... No, no, the concept, sure. Paranormal and spiritual, and then it just kind of devolved very quickly. But I've also covered other cults in the past. I've covered QAnon, where a lot of it starts out with a woo-woo paranormal spiritual kind of thought.

And then it just accidentally falls away. So, and I had heard of Twin Flames, but I hadn't heard of like the whole, I've heard about it in passing, like a soulmate. Like I just kind of knew the word and that was as far as I ever got. And I liked the idea of twin flames. I was like, that's nice.

Like that seems lovely. Uh-huh. And after reading these notes, I went, oh my, nevermind. Have you not seen the docuseries? It is a nanogram, so you gotta watch that. Well, here we go. This is a twin flames. And before we get into it,

I did want to bring up soulmates about like, you know, the difference between them. Sure. Because the, I think it was all the way back in Plato's symposium and he covers these, he does these like fictional speeches that are given to you by like real life people. So these people really existed, but he wrote, kind of like fanfic, he wrote these speeches for them.

I never thought of it as fanfic, but that's so good. Like philosopher Wattpad or something. And then one of them, I think it was, I'm trying to pronounce it right, Aristophanes. He told the creation of humans, which I heard this story all the way back in college and it was very lovely. And I actually, I knew a very, very watered down version of it. But when I came out, I came out in college or right before college and the world was

not the way that it is today. Not that it was incredibly worse, but it was nowhere near as great it is in terms of people being generally accepting. Accepting, right. And so one of my friends who was struggling with the fact that I was queer, because I did have a lot of homophobic friends back then that did not occur to me, I could not have them. And shockingly, all of them grew into very strong allies

So I'm kind of glad I stuck it in. Oh good. Look at you changing the world. Yeah, it's me. That's right It's you I'm serious but the the very watered-down version I heard is the same version that she heard and It actually kind of broke her out of her homophobia. No way which it was just it's just a new lovely way to think of soul mates, which is Aristophanes talks about the creation of humans and Originally in this story which lol apparently this was a fake speech So a fake story and so the thing that broke a homophobe was a fake piece of information

Whatever somewhere this homophobe is like never mind. Everything's a lie So like, never mind. Everything's a lie. So originally, according to this, humans were born as almost like two people squished together. We had two heads. We had four arms, four legs, two sets of genitals. We were just truly like someone just sewed two people together, it seems like. Very criminal minds.

And also, I think our heads faced different directions originally, so that way both heads could be looking at... I don't know. Our heads apparently were in different angles on our body. And it was technically two beings put together. They had a connected soul because their bodies were connected. And there were three different types of versions of this person. So if you were looking at a two-headed, four-legged, four-armed person,

they either were two male heads, two male sets of genitalia, two women, two female sets of genitalia, and then another one who was known as the androgynous, which was one man head, one female head, opposite sets of genitalia. And then another one who was known as the androgynous, which was one man head, one female head, opposite sets of genitalia. Or I don't know what their genitalia looked like. Apparently, Zeus changes the genitalia later, but man, man, woman, woman, man, woman, those are the three options. And each pairing was very powerful, very strong.

Apparently, like they, they kind of in the symbolic way now, where it's like, oh, when you find your person, like they, they make you better or they make you stronger. Apparently, these two headed people could like even run on all eight of their limbs together, which I'm just imagining like a never ending cartwheel or something. That sounds like a mess. It sounds like you're going to get tangled up. Like, it's just bad news.

Nothing good can come of that. Sometimes I look at dogs running and I'm like, how do they keep all those little things going? You know, I think about it too. I'm like, wow, they must all just be so synchronized, you know, I know. But imagine double those legs. I'm like, oh my God, that's a lot of work. Remember last week we talked about how you put pants on a dog? Imagine the pants situation on this.

It feels like it's becoming a bit of a human centipede game of like where do the pants end? No. So apparently, fun fact, and obviously this again is rooted in science science but I do like the idea of it apparently the two two male headed bodies their body comes from the Sun the body with two female heads comes from the earth and the androgynous people come from the moon so So I think that's lovely.

And these people were so strong that the gods became threatened by them. But of course, but they were in a tight spot, these narcissists, because if they just destroyed humanity, just wiped them out, who would worship them? Right? Great point. But so they had to keep them around just less powerful. So Zeus, I think with his lightning

bolt, unless I'm throwing that in from Hercules. That's what I'm saying. That'd be some fanfic of your own. Zeus decides to cut every human in half, just like split them down. I do think he strikes them with the lightning bolt like bam and the whole they just kind of Split in half in some way where they don't bleed out, but okay So this would mean every individual if he split them up He would have more individuals to worship him, but they would all have half of the strength. Oh Well, so he won it's like a win-win for him exactly exactly Oh wow, so he won, it's like a win-win for him. Exactly, exactly a win-win.

So he splits them up and now every person has two arms, two legs and one head and he warns them that if they ever mess around or threaten him again, then he will do it again, he'll split them again. So I guess that means we'd have one arm and one leg and half of the face. Oh lord, we're just like hopping around. I know, it's like I wanna do my cartwheels again.

One eye, yeah. My eight legged cartwheels to do my cartwheels again. My eight-legged cartwheels. Imagine then all those people show up at like a relay race. It's like, tie your legs together. Yeah, the three-legged race, but you have eight of them. So do you just like hold five of them like a continental soldier? Like, carry your egg across the finish line. I don't know how those games work.

Me either. I was always bad at them. Oh, imagine, remember when you would do the, we called it the wheelbarrow when you had to lift them up and hold them by their legs? Oh, for God's sake. We do that with Leona at Little Gym and that's like, I'm sure the last I'll ever experience that because, no thank you. Happily, probably.

So not only did Zeus split these people up, but then Apollo turns our heads around. This is how I know that our heads were in a different direction. Turns our heads around on our bodies to face. This is so sick. To place to face the place where our other halves used to be. That's like some walking dead shit. That's like the that's shit. That's like the, that's just so cool. And

it was to serve as a reminder of like, don't mess up because remember who you already lost the last time you were threatening. So dark. By the way, this is like Plato's fanfic, remember? So like, this is coming from his own brain. Yeah. He, you know, in today's world, He would have made an excellent like a 24 director. You know, oh Yeah, yeah, he was like I'll do you one better. I'll one up it just a little bit Yeah, when they have like one house productions, it's like just Plato's symposium I mean, I don't know someone's probably gonna write it and be like well, obviously so-and-so movie was based on the Teachings of I mean, I don't know know I mean the matrix was the allegory of the

cave right that was yes yeah yeah I have heard that so you're kind of on top of it people have already I mean through if you ever read Plato's allegory of the cave is like one of the only things I've ever actually like read and enjoyed from beginning to end it is carbon copy like they didn't even write a script for The Matrix. They it's just the allegory of the cave. It's like anyway. Really? I like could not get behind the allegory of the cave. I was like, what the fuck are you people talking about?

I read it when I was like 17 and all moody and I was like, the world doesn't understand me. It was it was perfect timing. You're like Neo understands me. He's like, I'm going to go see the world for what it is, but all these people are just blind to reality. They won't even look, you know? So...

I mean, you sound like me. I think I was just busy listening to Tegan and Sarah on LinkedIn and not reading Plato, but yeah, love that for you. Good job. Also, I've talked about this before, but my teacher, like the teacher who like changed me, he was our philosophy teacher.

So he was meant to change lives if he's going to be teaching philosophy to 16 year olds who just like question everything. Whoever wants that job. That is quite a job to take on. Well, anyway, Apollo is just so cruel and turns our heads around to look at where our best friends used to be. Then he takes the loose skin from that's left over on all of us, because we're all mangled now, and he wraps it up tight around our bodies at the navel, creating our belly buttons.

I feel like Plato... Could Plato not learn about the birds and the bees? I feel like Plato was like, you know, someone's going to ask about the loose skin. I'm going to have to just figure out what to do with that. And just throw belly buttons. He over thought that one because I don't think anyone was thinking about the loose skin. I think we're all thinking about that. He just cut a bunch of people in half and twisted their heads around.

But sure, I guess he was covering all his bases. Sure. He took a weed gummy. I think he was. Yeah. Well, OK. Now, don't give weed gummies a bad name. But yeah, you're probably right. So when I heard the story what would I The very watered-down version in college. I don't know if this is true or not but what I heard was that after this because

These people were so scared of the event like the strike of the thunder or the lightning or whatever and then splitting in half They were so scared. They just ran off in fear and they ran off in different directions all loose scatter scattered and they all lost their person and so which that was kind of the the version I heard someone explain yeah queerness at the time because it was such a there was no spectrum there was none of this it was just, someone described it to me and my homophobic friend as, oh, well, everyone's missing somebody

regardless of who they are. And I was like, oh, that's very lovely. So props to the person trying to be progressive at a not as progressive time. But so they scatter, and so God splits up their bodies, but by doing this, he also split up their souls. And ever since this day, we have been wandering the earth, aimlessly searching for our literal other halves.

Imagine if we got split again and now we had fourth of a soul and it's like, well, we're never gonna figure this one out. Like now we need to find four of ourselves. Oh God. Well, you know what? See, as we gonna talk about Twin Flames a little bit, I feel like it would People would just kind of turn that into like well one is for love, one is for friendship, one is for something Yeah, but imagine the mess though. Like three's company, right? Four is a fucking shit show and a drama

Like the unnecessary drama Unnecessary drama Which is where I live though. I live on the corner of unnecessary drama and filth so Whoa, yeah, yeah, okay. Is that where your coffee shop is so you never can move I'll have Zeus split you in half so you could have another little a little space. Thank you Ernie Do you believe in soulmates? I feel like I've never asked you I believe in soulmates? I feel like I've never asked you. I believe in people who reincarnate together and have spent lives in different relationships with one another. But I don't believe like there's one

person that you're meant to, not in like the traditional like high school sense, like he's my soulmate, you know, not like that. What about you? I am about the same. I think maybe like we're all- I think we've kind of like talked about that element of it, like being like repeating lives with people, with souls that we've known before.

I feel like you've talked about that. I think we're all like stardust that kind of like, we happen to be part of an explosion all at the same time or something where like we just all our molecules feel relatable in some way. I don't know. What? Wait, oh, I was like, uh huh. Wait, you're I feel there's like there's something trippy about stardust and like we all can sense something John Green or whatever. Oh, okay. Sure. I'll take that. The fault in our star.

It feels very young adult. We're all stardust. We are all stardust. We're literal stardust. So I, but no, I feel like there's, I think physically, I think there is something about, I don't know, cause I don't know. I feel like there's a physical element and I feel like there's a spiritual element. And I agree totally with the spirituality wise of like, I feel like there's a physical element and I feel like there's a spiritual element and I agree totally with the

Spirituality wise of like I feel like there's a reincarnation. We keep finding each other. I don't think we're always the The same role. I think that no like the way I describe it to Allison. I think I've told you before about the nail salon Analogy Allison and I Have asked like oh do you think we like knew each other in a past life? And I feel like her and I never knew each other. I think this is a new time. Really? I feel like maybe she was like a mutual, we had a mutual soul friend. Maybe it was you. I was gonna say, do you think I did? Because I mean, I don't know. I feel like

you and I have definitely crossed paths in the past. Yeah, it't know. I feel like you and I have definitely crossed paths in the past. Yeah, it's annoying. I feel like we were siblings. That's the vibe I get. Yeah, something like that. And I feel like we had a contentious thing. Oh. Maybe I killed you.

Not contentious, but like a sibling, you know, like that vibe, which is like... Something. Well, with Allison, I've said, I feel like we were both up in like some Middle grounds like we weren't in like and we were in some astral plane This is like the story I like to imagine of how we came to be is that when you die There's like some sort of like waiting room where you're waiting for all your people before you like have a meeting with somebody about what your next life is gonna be like and in relationships you want to have with these souls. And I like to think that Allison and I were just like in a nail salon together as

two random people in the waiting room waiting for our own individual meetings about where our lives were going to go. And we just bumped into each other sat next to each other at the nail salon just kind of just started up conversation and we were gabbing and it was kind of fun. And then I got called in for my meeting and I was like, I don't know who that girl is, but bring her in. I thought she was kind of cool. So that's- And then she got moved away from her own journey of soul to be in North.

So somehow the worlds merged, I guess. But that's the story. I feel like there's, we even at, even in a different liminal space, I feel like we met at random and it just kind of worked out. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I just feel like there's a lot to, I mean, you should, I know you're not going to read

it, but you should read Journey of Souls or listen to it on Audible. Because that I feel like it was so mind blowing to me. And it's the concept of what happens between lives. And the way he answered that was by doing regressive hypnotherapy on tons of patients. And then he didn't even do it intentionally, but he noticed that as he was going through people's past lives, some of them started describing the in-between like, Oh, and then I decided to like, you know, and he's like, decided where, like where are you? And people describe it. And they were so shockingly similar,

all these people's recount of what it's like in between lives that he wrote this whole book on it and like spent his life, you know, researching that. So it's really interesting, but it sounds a lot like you're kind of waiting, waiting room analogy type situation. Um, I would, I would, if you, if I were you, I would highly recommend that book. Um, um, what was it called? For on audible, it's called Journey of Souls by Michael Newton. Oh, it is on audible.

I, there's a much better chance of me listening to it. Yeah. I listened to it. Uh, and I liked the audible version a lot Okay, it's really good Anyway, I ended up asking you a question and then taking most of the time to answer it. Sorry about that. No, no, no, go ahead Anyway, so he splits them up their heads are all turned about they have belly buttons now and in the moments when They would find each other because now they're searching their whole lives for each other,

and the moments where two halves actually would find each other, they became so desperately enmeshed with each other, they wanted nothing to do with anything else out there. They would almost like forget how to live. It was like just this intense, intense, intense connection. But to a point where they were starving to death, or dying of thirst because they didn't want to do anything but hold each other because they're trying to become one again. Is that like not the saddest thing you've ever heard? God, that's so fucked up. And so Zeus, I guess even narcissists feel bad at some point. And so he was like, Zeus, I guess, even narcissists feel bad at some point.

And so he was like, uh, okay, maybe I fucked up. Well, no, he's still serving selfish purposes. He knows if they all die out of starvation, then who's gonna worship him? Okay, fair enough. Well, so he decides that he's still not gonna give them their full powers, but he does feel bad enough that they aren't, you know, they

that they're this attached to each other. Traumatized? Yeah. So this is where he decides to rearrange genitals. Where... Oh my god. Okay, sure. Two halves could, so that way both halves could essentially have sex with each other and have

that like intimate connection They were desperately seeking by pressing into each other so hard What the fuck The philosophy is crazy Is Plato okay? Like is he gay and he was like trying to come to grips with it? Like what's happening? Well back then I don't think being gay was all that, it wasn't the way it is today. I don't know, I don't know what he was dealing with. He was dealing with something for sure.

I mean, it sounds like it. But I feel like every philosopher was dealing with something. Other, why are you questioning everything and trying to come up with new answers to things if you weren't going through it? Get a hobby. Just kidding, I love philosophy. I think their hobby was philosophy. I know. So yikes, the halves with different genitals

could now reproduce and the halves with same genitals could at least find satisfaction. Oh, okay. Woofaroo, like wah. Anyway, and here's a note, this is actually, Saoirse wrote a note in here saying that it's debatable, I'm just gonna read it straight from what Saoirse said. It's debatable, this is actually, Serge wrote a note in here saying that it's debatable. I'm just gonna read it straight from what Serge said. It's debatable whether this was actually

an ancient distinction of heterosexuality and homosexuality. The text actually defines love between two male halves is often between a man and a boy because this era of Greece often accepted adult men seeking relationships with boys, which is a whole other topic. Oh yeah.

But so we don't even know if homosexuality was a part of this. It's just we're just reading what was going on. Gotcha. Okay. So now that the people have found each other, the texts explain that they have just this unexplainable immediate connection, and they will somehow recognize

each other deep down and want to spend the rest of their lives together. They complete each other with their love and this is where the idea of other halves come from. Same with soulmates. And I just wanted to give that quick little one-on-one on the history of a soulmate or at least you know. I love that in one facet. That's the idea of a soulmate I at least you know I love that in one facet that's the idea of a soulmate I always heard of is like it's your literal other half that completes you which no they don't they just they just empower you in case you need to hear that. Hopefully they enhance you. They what?

They enhance you. They enhance you that's a great way they help you become your better self. Yeah yeah. That's a great way. They help you become your better self. Yeah. Yeah. But anyway, so now we're going to talk about twin flames, which is another concept. I think it was originally supposed to be similar to soulmates. The very, again, diluted version I heard was that it was essentially like a soul. I heard it in my sorority. So please take this with a lot of grains of salt.

But it was like a twin flame is like a soulmate, but like your friend or something. Like it's like very close to a soulmate, but with a different purpose. I think it's like, it doesn't have to be, yeah, romantic. Yeah, it's like a platonic soulmate is your twin flame. In which case I used twin flame a lot when I was in school because I was like, well, that's the perfect way

to describe how I feel about a lot of people. So. But wouldn't it just be one person? I always thought you could have. I think a twin flame is like your other person. See, I always thought of it as just like. I don't think you're supposed to have multiple twin flames. I don't know, because to answer the question

in a different way too, I think you can have different soulmates. I think it's, so I, in my mind, I was like, I guess you could have different soul mates. I think it's so I in my mind I was like I guess you could have different. Not in the store, not in the traditional sense though like the traditional terms of a soulmate is like literally the other half of you. Yeah well I was doing it wrong. Whoops. But whatever I mean it's not like I was doing it right so. So there's this the concept of twin flames is not the same as soulmates because soulmates are people whose souls are similar to yours, but twin flames as this

cult kind of came through is that the twin flame is the same soul as you or is truly meant for you. The idea kind of arose from the 1970s new age spiritualist movement, where there is a super controversial spiritual leader named Elizabeth Clare Proffitt. Of course her last name is Proffitt. I feel like she changed her name on purpose.

She knew it. Well, was it Proffitt or Proffitt? Like F-I-T-P-H-E-T, because both of them would really fit for a cult leader. This one was P-H, which is... Oh, so it's even like a double entendre, right? It's like prophet. Yeah.

And she'll be like, but I'm not going to tell you how I spell it. You have to guess. Yeah, you guess. So she popularized this book called Soulmates and Twin Flames, the Spiritual Dimension of Love and Relationships. And today, she was just... That's kind of where this all came from. And it's believed now that twin flames are souls created at exactly the same time meant in some way to be combined into one, you have to find your twin flame, and then you will have this big shift in yourself where you are a heightened version of who you are, it's all connected to ascension and higher consciousness. Twin flames can be found in a lot of religions, or twin souls can be found in a lot of religions. These days it's largely heard mainly throughout Christianity, the concept of a soulmate and

that God created two souls to find each other. If you search twin souls, twin flame souls, twin souls, if you search it online, you'll find a lot of articles defending and condemning the concept. I just wanted to mention that I thought it was interesting that marriage.com has weighed in on twin flames. Well, well, well, the foremost experts. So to all the married people who are using marriage.com or the single people, I don't know what marriage.com is for.

Wait, I was gonna say, what is it used for? Because I think it's either, right, expressly for single people or expressly for married people. It's like, is it, is, are you supposed to read this magazine and then be able to get married at the end? I don't understand. Hold on, marriage.com. Let's see what happens marriage and relationship advice Oh, so I guess you could be not you could also be unmarried and just in a relationship. I suppose

Oh, what zodiac sign will I marry quiz? Oh God I Think you're gonna marry a Capricorn, but I'm not sure. Okay, this is the stupidest part. Does it say that? Oh, sorry. I didn't see the... It said start quiz.

I was like, this quiz doesn't even work. I didn't see the giant button that says start quiz. Anyway, I'll take this later. This seems like unnecessary. We'll do that for aftershad. Yeah, okay, after hours. After hours, yeah, sorry. So marriage.com weighed in.

They said 20 clear signs that your twin flame is communicating with you. And then it was like not even, it was like heart palpitations. Heart palpitations. I guess Allison's trying to talk to me through my chest because I have heart palpitations all the time. Maybe it's not Allison.

Maybe it's a beta blocker. Ooh, it's a beta blocker. Maybe it's me. You seem to get really fucking flustered when we're working together. So yeah. Only when your shoulders come out. Um, unexplained bodily pressure, okay? Dizziness, body temperature changes, and then it says kind of more movie cinematic versions,

like dreaming about a person, meeting them again and again in random places, them coming up in conversation. Like the first part feels like a WebMD symptom checker. And then the second part feels like one of those team quizzes that says- Just a list of coincidences? That's a list of coincidences or are you a stalker.com. Or like, does she have a crush on me?

Does he like, does my crush like me back? Like a Tiger Beat quiz, yeah. Like a Tiger Beat quiz, that's what this is giving, I think. Yeah, so that article taught me really nothing. Sorry, marriage.com, you did not nail it that time, but what do I know? I'm also not married, so maybe it was not for me.

Oh, there's a quiz called, am I bisexual on marriage.com? I'll take that next. Girl, I don't have to, you are. Do I have daddy issue quizzes? What's happening? Marriage.com realized that even they didn't know their own demographic

and they're just calling everyone out now. I mean, literally this one is called, should you get a divorce, take this quiz and find out. See, that's what marriage.com should be. Their website should be, where are you in your marriage? Are you good? Or do we have to evacuate? And at the back of every magazine, there should be a bunch of classifieds for divorce lawyers.

Well, I bet there are. And also, I feel like if you have to take the quiz, because you're really not that sure, maybe things aren't. All signs point to yes. Yeah, maybe things aren't going great. Or maybe you just need to see a counselor. I don't know, man. I don't know. I don't know. You know what? You know what?

Marriage.com really should do is because I'm on like staunch feminist TikTok. They should have a whole. Just like page on their marriage.com thing where they just post videos of women in relationships having to deal with weaponized incompetence and just hope that someone gets the message that way. If they need to find it on marriage.com. You know what I mean? Have you been-

I mean, I think marriage.com is more about quizzes. It seems that way, but if they're trying to bring in a new demographic, you've got to get with the talk. You know what I'm saying? Get with the talk. I bet they're on there. I wouldn't doubt it. They're probably already on there, Em.

Maybe they post sassy comments under videos like Duolingo. Uh-huh. Now, that could very well be. And people are like, who the fuck is marriage.com? It's not even verified. So I feel like it doesn't have quite the same weight as Doritos commenting on something, but you know, maybe someday.

Okay, where were we? Yikes. Oh, that marriage.com even has weighed in on Twin Flames, if you look it up. It seems to be a mainly Christian mindset these days, but you can find soulmates or Twin Flames pretty much anywhere. And twin flame also, this is where it gets a little extra woo woo, is that twin flame goes hand in hand with the spiritual concept of vibrations. Where people in your life can have

high vibrations or low vibrations and if they your vibration, then that's how you know that you're compatible. And those with higher vibrations are more deeply connected with spirituality and higher consciousness. They're also more positive and happy and kind. Good vibes only spirituality. Yeah, which like, yeah, I'm saying like, oh, it can be controversial, but every single one of us, if we use the word vibes, we are talking about vibrations.

It has seeped into our kind of vernacular. Oh yeah, it's definitely, oh yeah, for sure, for sure. But ideally, if you find someone similar to you vibrationally, then you're more compatible. And if you end up with someone with even higher vibrations than you, they can help guide you. They're more connected with higher consciousness. They're more positive and they're kind. And if someone has lower vibrations than you, you might see them as negative and unhappy, or they're trying to bring you down. And there's this metaphysical field of vibrational medicine, where people believe that frequencies can affect our health.

And they suggest that it's vital to avoid those who vibrate at lower frequencies to protect ourselves, which in theory seems like a good idea, like avoid people with bad vibes. But you want to say it or me? Yeah, I mean, well, you can say I know I'm probably gonna say the same thing, but like, I literally just heard part of it was, oh, if you find someone with high vibration, they can help you get a higher vibration. So if they're avoiding you and you're like, I don't know, it just seems like counterintuitive.

Well, also, it leaves the door open for a lot of room for interpretation. So if you're telling people, avoid people with bad vibes. I like that I was like, we're definitely saying the same thing. I thought we were too, but no, you made a better point than I was gonna make.

No, no, but that makes sense too. I hadn't even thought of it that way. It leaves a lot of room for people to insert their own biases. So if someone who goes into one of these, like kind of falls into this community and you happen to be really judgmental with people or if you're racist or if you are oppressive in any way,

you're just gonna say, oh, well, they have bad vibes or they're lower vibrationally so I shouldn't have to be around them. And it's like, you're just being a fucking racist. Well, you know, so. Yeah, I just feel like there's some, a lot of, especially with such a vague terminology, and like, it's almost like a self-diagnosis,

like, I'm vibrating on a higher level than you. Like, okay. Yeah, it feels like just like a different way to just talk about how you feel like you're better than somebody else. Yeah. So it leaves people with the ability to justify anyone they don't like as spiritually bad. Okay, I see.

And it's the moral of the story is that the real goal, if there is one in this is that you should be striving for like your own individual, personal, spiritual growth. Right. And if there is a twin flame out there, they can help you on your path while you help them on their path. And it should be this very loving give and take with others, if there is even like a real goal in all of this.

Is it a theory that like they, there are two people that were created this way by the universe or like, it's just a coincidence that there's somebody who's like a match to you? Um, my understanding is that it's believed that there is someone meant for you. Okay. So it's like, it's been like preordained basically. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. Okay. Gotcha. And once you and your twin flame find each other within this world of like vibrations and finding each other in that way, you can help each other grow and ascend to new spiritual depths and...

Right, okay. People like, allege that they can sense like a literal shift in their own soul because when the vibrations combine with someone exactly vibrationally in tune with them. They ascend to higher frequencies. It's kind of like how you would say like, oh, you're-

Or you're just horny. Or you're just horny. It's very similar to like- I mean, pheromones are a real thing. I don't know why everyone's acting like, oh, it's a vibrational connection. I'm like, it's called evolution and pheromones, whatever. Okay, anyway, that annoys me.

Not you, this concept. It's very similar to like when you, like if you find the right partner, they will help bring you up and you will bring them up and everyone will be at a heightened version of themselves because they only have good people on their corner helping them grow. And it's, I see where it could come from

or what it could stem from or what they think they're conflating it with, but it very quickly shifts. So many people- Yeah, it's like a noble pursuit. I appreciate that. And I feel like, I mean, obviously my views are very woo woo. Like I'm saying, oh, I think we are like

re-incarnating with each other. So I mean, I'm not like poo pooing it, you know, in that way. I just, yeah, you're right. I feel like it's very, it feels very, it's slippery slope. Limiting, like it feels like you're really boxing in something that doesn't need to be so defined. Yeah, yeah.

And that's how this cult comes in. It's like, oh, it has to be this way, you know Which never ends well, but just so weird I don't really know what I would be looking for in a cult if I were to join one because if the rules are too Rigid then it's like really strict and confined and then you're like, oh like that makes me want to doubt everything But if it's too big they don't last because they start and then they get you know Whoever's running it starts implementing more rules and more structures, but then you're trapped, you know what I mean? But I don't know what like, I don't know, because then it could be incredibly vague and it's like you make your own rules, but then it turns into like a real fiasco like this too.

Which I mean, I feel like that's how a lot of the hippie stuff started, right? It was like, oh, I mean like cults that were, you know, during the sixties, seventies, it's like, oh, we're all about free spirit, free will. But then like over time it becomes, but only like you can have sex with each other. You can only have sex with the cult leader and you know, like it starts evolving into this like really fucked up slippery slope, like you said. So yeah, I feel like in the wrong hands, this like kind of beautiful concept concept just turns bad really fast. Well, so people were, at this point,

considering their twin flame, the equivalent to having this big spiritual awakening, because they're like, if I can't ascend without my twin flame, then, or if I can't be my best version of myself without my twin flame, then I need this as a spiritual awakening I mean, it's this is the I feel like earlier when we said something I did like a very like half-sentence

PSA about like your soulmate does not Complete you. I know it sounds very like Probably to someone who you know, someone heard that and felt like okay Yeah, yeah, yeah Like you're like thinking too much into it. But it very quickly falls into stories like this or narratives like this of like, if you don't have your twin flame, you are not a whole person. You are not valued. You are not. It's it's like that rigid structure of a sudden.

It's like you don't really exist outside of now having this twin flame. Your whole purpose should be to find this other person. Yes. Obviously, I think people think, you know, surface level, like, I know my soulmate doesn't complete me. But the fact that there are deep-rooted values that we have been raised to believe. Some people really have to tear themselves away

from that narrative when they get older and realize, oh my God, I was really falling for the thought that I needed another person to be seen as worthwhile. And I mean, there's something to be said for like people who are, you know, who want to have that companionship and stuff. So, you know, I feel like it's just such a, it's just like such a gray area. Like there's something so beautiful and wonderful about having like the perfect soulmate partner, but then the word like completes you starts to take on a, can take on like a worse, more toxic meaning. But yeah, I mean, I think a lot of people do believe in soulmates and don't necessarily feel like,

Oh, I can't exist without them. You know, like I'm sure there is like a healthy way to look at soulmates. Probably. I don't, I don't doubt that. I'm sure some people listening believe in soulmates. But yeah, is a dangerous like word like semantics wise a very dangerous game. Yeah Yeah, that's why I did kind of a throwaway Mention earlier and I don't know if anyone like was annoyed by it But this is why I mentioned it because I'm like some people really it's a very Very quick shift into really thinking that if you can't find your twin flame you have not completed

Yourself your we're life's work is not done. You are not even as good as you could be, so therefore that might mean that you're bad. So it's just, it's very quickly psychologically damaging. It's like dangerous. Yeah, yeah, damaging. And some people believe that finding your twin flame can even unlock access to higher powers. This is where it gets extra woo woo.

Where you're not even your true self with your true abilities until you have your twin flame with you. You're suddenly at the egg race and you're like, watch this. And you and your eight legs are finally reunited. So you cross the relay win first prize at the company picnic. I can see how you're just run on all you just run on all eights towards the sunset and you just have the best. That's what I'm saying. You're you're you're I feel like that is I can see how intoxicating it sounds to get that power back because if

I won first place at the company relay race, I would tell you, it'd be a happy day for me. I know you're making a joke, but the literal next bullet I have is, it makes sense that so many people would be drawn into this ideology. It is very intoxicating. I dream big, so I'm thinking of the company picnic. I don't know what everyone else is intoxicated by,

but I wanna win the relay race. I've never won any physical contest or feat of strength in my life. It's about time I find my soulmate marriage calm I'm gonna go find find them not only can you find lifelong love if you find your twin flame, but you also Apparently feel a literal shift in yourself. You are improved you feel changed and so This is you know an early concept that feels really good. A lot of, there are a lot of eager followers because they're like,

I just want to find love and like what's, nothing sounds wrong about that. Like even if it's wrong, at least I found love. Blah, blah, blah. But this is in the words of Saoirse, when there's a new age concept with eager followers, there is someone selling something and in 2017 since you saw the Documentary, maybe you can help me with the name. Is it Shalya? Jeff and Shalya? Jeff and Shalya. Yes Jeff. I'm not gonna remember this. Oh, I remember Jeff and Shalya. Never mind. Yep Jeff and Shalya divine they did change their last name. So that makes me think this prophet changed her name too.

Yeah, I don't doubt it. They founded the Twin Flame Universe, which... This is where I think all the heat that's been coming off of you, speaking of flames, the... Cuckoo, cuckoo. Yeah, this is where... Your energy from earlier is because of this. Yeah, that's right. I felt like maybe I was a little too heated about it. Because I just kept thinking about this. This, for's right. I felt like maybe I was a little too heated about it, because I just kept thinking about

this. For some reason, this documentary just was so disturbing to me. And my brother watched it even and texted me and was like, that was really fucked up. It's just something about it is so upsetting. So that's why I was getting all worked up. But I've used the term twin flame. I think it's a really beautiful concept. So like separate from the cult,

I just don't want people to think I'm just like bashing every concept we're talking about. I think a twin flame is like, I mean, I used to use that phrase too, probably incorrectly, but I think they ruined the word. I was like mad. I was like, I love the concept of a twin flame. And now they've just ruined that word for me because they didn't invent it, right?

They just like took the idea. OK, OK, cool. What if I was in a cult this whole time? You and I in college were like apparently in a cult. We didn't even know. Just calling everyone our twin flame. The only thing I know with certainty is that I was in college until 2014 and I was using the word twin flame and they didn't even found this group until 2017. So, oh, okay.

Right. So nevermind. We're not the first. Phew. Maybe when we heard about it, it was just like a very lovely concept. No, I think it was because I still think it's a lovely concept, like separate from this bullshit. You know, I really? I really do. So they found the Twin Flame universe,

which was a school for ascension to, quote, heal separation. Red flag, red flag, red flag. Yeah, anytime I hear about a school of ascension, I'm like, I want to like you so much, but I have yet to ever find one that was not a scam. It's so funny that you like, because at first I was like, yeah,

how many times do you hear? And then I was like, we probably actually do see School of Ascension way more than the average person because of what we do. Because of what we do, but also I live in LA. I feel like on every corner, there's some sort of school. There's probably one in your building. You should check.

Probably, I don't know. And so, yeah, school for Ascension. Because I really, I would love to live in a world where every single medium psychic clairvoyant person involved in Ascension really actually knew what they were doing and were just good genuine guides. And had good intentions. Yeah. I would love to drive past a school of Ascension and go, oh my God, I'm obviously gonna take classes there.

That must be good, because the intention behind is good. But yeah, you're right. It's like, you get so jaded over time, because you're like, man, all of these end up bad. I don't mean to be Harry Houdini here, but now when I see School for Ascension to heal separation, I'm like, ugh, no thanks,

drive faster. You gotta prove yourself, you know? One of these, I've gotta prove themselves and actually ascend or something, and maybe we'll believe you. Mm-hmm. Show me, make your spirit come out of your body and then go back in and then I'll fucking take your class.

Just like Houdini asked. He's like, I just need simple proof. That's all I ask. He literally said, I will pay you $10,000 in 1940s money for you to just do a simple thing. In 1940s. In 1940s. Um, anyway, so they created this school for Ascension

and Shalya claims that she used to quote, suffer from separation, but healed herself by achieving harmonious union with Jeff. Ugh, drive faster or whatever I just said earlier. I thought you were gonna say dry heave. I was like, indeed. Drive faster and dry heave at the same time. Jeff, who at one point was going

by a completely different name, which is not a fucking good sign of the leader of a group. Oh no. His name was Ender Iannithos. Okay. Fuck, I don't know. Thank God we're calling're calling him Jeff cuz that's not I wasn't gonna tolerate that bullshit Okay, not like Jeff was gonna be a more Whatever, okay Unless that was his actual name and I just came off like such an asshole

I'm pretty sure that name was fully made up. Let's just be the yander one was made up Yeah, I think so. I hope so. Otherwise, I just sounded like a real dick. But like, anyway, his name is Jeff. He made up Jeff. Okay. Wait, did he make up Jeff? Oh, I'm sorry. I thought that's what you were saying. What's his name like as a cult leader? I don't know. I think Jeff Devine is... Oh, Jeff Devine. Okay.

And at one point, he was going by ender I anathos. Oh Oh, I see. Oh, I see what you're saying I don't know what it sounds like it sounds like he made that up. But also like what if that's like a name I just never heard of his legal name is Jeffrey I am Okay. Okay. Okay. So he added the word Ethos to his last name, come on. An ender? Like what's he changing? Ender.

Like whatever. Whatever, okay. I said, I almost said, Alexander, I don't know. Told you we were siblings in a past life, it's coming out today. Truly, like the energy on this episode has to be bothering somebody. Sorry everyone.

It's me, I'm really sorry. No, I think it's all me. I feel off. I feel like this dread is kind of hanging over me and I feel like I'm taking it out on everyone. I'm so sorry. Well, you said at the beginning of the episode, I think someone's gonna die.

And then I gave you this wacky tune, so. No, it's good. It's, this is, I think I'm just taking it out on the story and I apologize for my kind of bitterness. It's like, it's a good day to have a bad story. Oh yeah, Ender's Game. But I thought, because I thought maybe Ender's Game. Did you read that M when you were younger?

No, but it is spelled like that, Eva. Yeah, so it might be Ender's Game. I mean, I don't know, that'd be an interesting, it's like a book series, a young adult I think. Well I would love if he named himself after a YA book and then put ethos at the end of his last name I mean Elsa maybe it's not why but I know it's like sci-fi. So It could be it could be Well, Shalya claims that she used to suffer from separation has now been healed with Jeff and Jeff said that he met Shalya online and credits her for his spiritual awakening.

And of course, their online courses are not free. They cost over $4,000 sometimes. And before founding the school, they ran several websites together, which offered healing services not yet understood by science. Can you believe it? I mean, yikes. Just yikes. This is where I say you and I know what

we're talking about and nobody else. But I've been talking about it. You know who chatters in my brain all the time? She's been talking about it for 45 minutes and she won't shut up. So I'm there with you. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sorry everybody else. This goes back to like the Frank Mesmer episode and all these people with like the healing of hands bullshit. It's just, we know somebody in our personal lives and it- Yeah. We have a connection to someone, a loose connection to someone that is kind of like in this world. So- Who may or may not listen. So if they are listening- We don't know, right. Exactly. Please, please God hear this loudly and stop what you're doing Drive faster, but also complete halt, please screech your eye heave, you know

Before founding the school they ran several websites Offering healing services not yet understood by science and Jeff claimed to have a gift to look inside a person and heal serious and life-threatening ailments including cancer and the clients had to adhere to his rules and If they weren't cured it wasn't because he couldn't help them. It's because they weren't ready to heal Now does that or does that not sound exactly like someone we know? Okay, I mean it sure sure does okay, okay sure wish it didn't but it sure does yeah yikes so

Then when they find their niche with this twin flame university because they already had these healing services blah blah And they're like we're really gonna knock it knock it down with our twin flame universe. We're gonna kill it Yeah, look out look out world. Look out world. And it actually does take off at first. Tens of thousands of people from around the world are joining, mainly online. They have like a lot of online forums.

They have a YouTube, they have Facebook. And this is 2017. Oh, is that why marriage.com is also directed if you type in twinflameuniverse.com because straight to marriage.com, they've just rebranded all these like pop quizzes. And honestly, the way you're describing the website, like people, I'm like, oh God,

is this marriage.com for real? Because I don't know. I don't want to dox marriage.com, but if anyone knows who the CEO is. They're just like, we're just trying to make a fun, like supportive, you know, support people's relationships. And I'm over here just like bashing the shit out of them. But anyway, I've spent more time on that website today than any other for some reason. So well, okay, so anyone who has been who has joined the

TFU, as I've been calling it, yes, they did call it TFU. So you're you're on to it. Great. It's like I meant to be there. like you should go to Walmart or CVS and buy yourself a t-shirt, just like you did with Newport. Or what is it? Not Newport High School, that's my local high school. Burbank High School, yeah. They joined, or people who joined the community would go on YouTube.

They found a lot of local Facebook groups to join, and members would share their experiences regarding their twin flames and the person that was meant for them, that was going to be the one that changed them and, I don't know, made them feel complete because apparently they didn't get the PSA that you don't need someone to complete you. So now their whole life's work is like, if I want the spiritual awakening, if I wanna be complete, if I wanna be valid, and if I wanna find love, I have to find my twin flame, and this is the only way to do it.

So many believe that their twin flames already were in their life. It'd be one thing if you're popping on, you're like, I don't think I've met my twin flame yet, I haven't had the feeling. Like, but it very quickly, very quickly avalanches downward where people are saying, my twin flame is already in my life.

It's my ex. How do I get them back? Or it's, oh, I know who my twin flame is. They're married and they have kids and they live in another state, but I know that they're mine. And very very very quickly it's looking rough all of a sudden everyone who wants to find their twin flame is basically

going into these online forums looking for advice on how to commit crimes and stop the shit out of people. I mean legit. It's like it was like so right in front like the writing was on the wall immediately right like people were like oh well if you know that your twin flame is that guy who said he wasn't interested and is your boss and has refiled a restraining order, well, then you just got to go get him. Otherwise your soul's not going to ascend.

And it's like feeding this like unhinged thought, these unhinged thoughts of like, Oh, well they have to be with me. So like, I have to get them. So since your twin flame is meant for you because it is predestined, preordained that they are for you and you are for them. People were not only feeling entitled, but were heavily encouraged by this program to it to pursue either toxic relationships that wouldn't work for them or they were the toxic one.

I mean, obviously they were the toxic one, but like to pursue these really unhealthy relationships or wreck other really healthy relationships. And they were just encouraged to, whatever lengths necessary. It was almost like at all costs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whatever length, like whatever lengths necessary. It was almost like at all costs. Yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever length, whatever it takes.

Yeah, they were encouraged by staff and other coaches of this program to just do whatever they had to. And this, I mean, so I've already done the whole PSA on this was already psychologically damaging because it's preying on people who already feel like they're not valued or they're not worth it or that they're not complete. And this is their, their one ticket, their one shot at like feeling like a

complete whole soul and they will be better for it in the end. It's so sad. But on top of it, it's picking people who like are not critically thinking with their feelings, with their relationships. It seems like they're already vulnerable or feeling unstable or feeling off-kilter in some way. And then these people come in and push them. You know what I mean? It feels like taking advantage

of vulnerable people. I mean, these are people who... either they already felt this way and were emboldened by the program or didn't even think about it this way and were then encouraged to give it a try. These are people that are now thinking, I need this to feel complete. And also, I'm allowed to ignore all of the massive social red flags and legal boundaries. and I'm allowed to... Yes, and legal boundaries. And the social cues, the legal cues, like anything,

like I'm allowed to ignore all of that if it doesn't match. Right. And honestly, what I'm gonna say later is that the demographic of this group was widely women. And honestly, thank God, because if this audience was a lot of men, I'm not saying all men or anything like that, but like, statistically, it would have become an incredibly more violent or dangerous situation

if we just took a bunch of men and told them you were entitled to whoever you want, go get them. So I think that's, it's already dangerous with the whole group being women. It could even be more dangerous with people who, you know, maybe would take it maybe a little more aggressively or have been socialized that already that they're entitled to things like that. So it's just an interesting point that like.

Yeah, it would have probably been a totally different dynamic, even though bad both ways, but like probably a different dynamic if it was a majority men instead of a majority women. Yeah, I'm not trying to say men are worse or anything like that. I'm just saying it's interesting that. Yeah, it would be different socially speaking and yeah, totally. I agree. Yeah.

So I just want to point that out that this is mainly women, but this is no matter who it is, it's people who are- It's still bad. It's still really bad. I just like with whatever respect I can muster, they are a little off hinge currently, or at least are being told to be off hinge. Are being encouraged, right? To be like, to eschew, is that how you say that word?

Eschew? I don't know. Like social, social boundaries and other people's boundaries and legal boundaries. Ignore anyone saying no. Like, yeah, like no doesn't mean no. I mean, come on. Exactly. That's what I was trying to make about, about my last point is that like, they're telling you no means no is not an accurate statement. And so, and also this is where I'll put the P.S. this thing is full of PSA's, but just to let's just throw it out there while we're here. Another reason why I make that point

is because a lot of men and a lot of women and a lot of hetero normative values say that pers perseverance is romantic and perseverance is sexy. And I just wanna put it out there that if you're someone who is listening to this podcast right now and you are pursuing someone who has told you no, fucking stop, stop. It's not, I don't know if this is your sign

that you're looking for, but like no means no. And- No means no, yeah, yeah. It's not romantic to, we all have that one grandparent who's like, oh I asked her on a date 30 times and I wore her down. It's like, that's not romantic.

That's fucking stalking somebody. Yeah. So if you needed to hear it from somebody else and you're listening to this podcast right now, please stop reaching out to people who have actively told you they're not interested. Yeah. And this was a fucking Petri dish of people

who were not interested in hearing a PSA like that. They were like, no, no, no, I'm gonna do what I want. They probably heard that PSA, and they're like, no thanks, not for me. Not for me, they just don't understand, yeah. But so one of the core tenets that makes this even. But so one of the core tenants that makes this even worse is that one of the core tenants of this Twin Flame universe that Jeff and Shalea put out

is that they believed that we are our own obstacles and no one is blocking our path to love but us. And so, again, this could have started as a noble pursuit of like, hey, look within before you make any intense actions or any big choices, like look within. I see where it could have started, it immediately devolves. One of the vital exercises for these members

was called the mirror exercise, where you write down something that is upsetting you, for example, like your friend isn't answering your phone calls and thus your friend is not Communicating well with you you write it down and you remove the person and insert yourself where you wrote the person's name So instead of it being my friend isn't communicating with me it becomes you're not communicating with yourself You need to have better communication with yourself So it's very self like very blamey

We're like and shame a lot of shame a lot of shame and like if you don't feel that part of yourself Then like you're not ready for the next step to ascend So immediately it's making people like feel fucking really bad about themselves Even when it's not logical like you can be mad if someone's not calling you back and like it have nothing to do with you Yeah But anyway, so how it that's just one of the things that added on top of this is that people who were already not feeling Good about themselves now feel even worse and are saying well I can't find love because I'm doing all these things wrong

By the way, also totally not paying attention to the fact that the one thing they are doing wrong is stalking people. Yeah, they're doing everything wrong because they're being told to do it that way. Mm-hmm. And so this got extreme because potentially unhinged people or people on their way to not acting in their right mind are now being told to pursue people that were toxic And if it didn't work out it was their fault Mmm. Yeah, or yeah people that were healthy, but they that they should continue to be more toxic because it's not working yet Yeah, they need to try harder basically So one member posted that she got a restraining order or her twin flame got a restraining order against her.

Another said that a twin flame had to stop communicating with her altogether. I'm sure in the documentary you watched, there was a lot of examples of so sad. But a lot of people are getting restraining orders. Let's just make that. Let's put it that way. Yeah. Good way to put it. These members were encouraged to look within and consider how these actually were causing issues. But then it's they're basically, like we said earlier, they're they're basically just being told like, oh, we'll ignore the restraining order because the law doesn't get it and

direct rejections mean nothing and you know, this person is meant for you. You have to keep fighting and to pursue is, you'll be thankful one day. So, another woman goes to jail for violating her restraining order. One is like straight up stalking, stalking, like violently stalking her, twin flame, like changed jobs, moved across the country. And one person who was stalking their twin flame was told by the program,

sounds like you're being guided to be closer and connected to your twin flame. God supports you on your next big step. After intense stalking somebody. So now they're just being like, patted on the back for all their hard work. Now they're like, good job, a restraining order. That means you're trying really hard.

Exactly. And it gets even worse. So now the stalking thing, that's one whole chunk of this. Here's the other massive controversy, which I didn't even see this coming. This is like such a plot twist. In Twin Flame ideology, there's this weird emphasis on the divine masculine and the divine feminine. And basically that the universe created man and woman to embody divinity and to complete each other. It's already giving me like gross homophobic, like a man is meant to be with a woman, a woman's meant to be with a man. But so basically they think a woman can only embody her true femininity once she's with someone who embodies their true masculinity. Starts out homophobic,

or at least I'm reading it as homophobic because I'm primed for that, but it's really just sexist in general. It's pushing that masculine women just have trauma from low-frequency men. So, fun fact. It actually started as completely open. That's like, I think that's where I was trying

to go with it earlier too, is like, they said, your flame can flame or your yeah Your twin flame can be Same gender, you know Whatever and and so in the beginning there were a lot of there were queer couples involved But then like over time they said they got like some instruction that never mind It has to be one divine feminine one divine masculine so like but at the beginning there were quite a few it was like very accepting at the

beginning and that was like a big draw for people so we're gonna talk about that okay so it was basically it was sexist in general to push that you could not be. Yes, you're right in the beginning. I'm just trying to figure out how to frame the bullet notes now that we've thrown that in. Sorry, sorry. I know we said it started, but I was like, I think it started really like Lucy Goosie. Love is love. It did. And even even though it became so, yes, it became it was a learning to people because it was very open and it was very accepting.

And when they came out with these divine femininity, divine masculinity qualities that had to be perfectly paired for you to know that you found your twin flame, which, by the way, I thought never mind. I'm about to go off on a tangent. When I first read that, it sounded really gross right away because they were basically saying, once they meet a man who vibrates at a high frequency, then a woman can be her true self at her high frequency.

And it gave me kind of like high value man shit that a lot of men talk about on their podcasts of like, you have to be a high value man to be a high to be with a high value woman or something. Or it felt very like, oh, we just haven't found the right man yet. That was how I read it. And then you're right. I did my own like kind of back research on it and saw that it was very accepting and that it didn't matter what your gender was spiritually.

You could be very masculine or very feminine. It didn't matter what you looked like on the outside. And that lured people in, but then it got really fucking weird because let's just, I'm just going to skip ahead and go straight to this part. The universe basically said divine masculinity and femininity are not connected to physical sex, anyone can embody either. But because of this, former members

who were very masculine or very feminine have now spoken out about being pressured to change gender for their twin flames. Yeah. So the twin flame universe program or the school had a big issue because their community, as I mentioned earlier, is heavily made up of cis women, many who identified as straight. And so you've got a bunch of cis het women and they're looking for their soul mate in this program, but there's nowhere near as many Cishet men in this program.

And the numbers or the success rate is not going to look good. And so Twin Flame Universe was like, what do we do about this? I don't know if they ever had a formal meeting, but what morphed into it was. That was kind of why, to your point of, oh, well then they ended up making it like anyone could be masculine, anyone could be feminine. And it had to be like those two strict rules. I think that came out of this where they were like, oh, our numbers don't look good. We have to change up our plan.

That's so fucked up, dude. And so then their next plan of attack when they're like, we need to make our numbers look better. We need more testimonies that this works. Anyone can be masculine or anyone can be feminine, but it has to be a man and a woman. And if a very masculine woman comes in here, she's obviously a man and she just doesn't know it yet.

So that became the narrative where they're now forcing people into questioning their gender. Yeah, it's like, oh, you are a man. You just, your soul is a man. You just need to like realize that your soul is a man and then like act like it and embody it. Yeah, so basically they, yeah, it's rough. They were saying it was apparently it became very common

for the coaches in this program to tell two random members, often two Cishet women, that they were in fact twin flames. Which by the way, I thought you were supposed to be able to sense that the second you're next to them. Yeah, right. Okay. They show, I only say this because I know you didn't watch the documentary yet, but there's this, there's video footage of the Zoom calls when they would basically call in and say,

Shalee and I have really good news. We know, we've been told who your twin flame is. And they're like, oh, who? And it's like, Veronica. And she's like on the call and it's like, oh my God. And they've been working together for years. And it's like, wait, so right, you didn't, so they didn't inherently know.

But you've just gotten some. Right, I thought the whole point was that vibrationally, you just cook. Yeah. So now their whole ideals are shifting, and does that not sound like any other cult where they pull someone in and say, God told me who you're supposed to marry, it's me with the 57 wives.

Like, what? Oh, God. And I know you're 12, but it's time that we, you know, yeah, get married right now and have babies. So fucking dicey. So, yeah, to get pulled into a room with the literal. Sorry, that's just so wild to me. So be pulled into a room with the literal leaders and to say, oh, we found your twin flame. I know you were supposed to sense it, but no, it's actually been the most ridiculous

part is that it was like on Zoom, like a lot of the footage, because they're all in different places. So like when you're pulled into a room, you're literally pulled into like a Zoom conference. And they're like, here's your soul mate. Like it's so absurd to watch, because you're like, meanwhile,

Em and I are bullshitting on Zoom about like, I don't know what we are drinking that week out of a box. And meanwhile, they're on Zoom like, you are actually, your soul is a man. Like, I don't know whose job it is to like watch all the, or like go through all the footage of back in Zoom. It's a new concept because I don't know, there is no word for it,

but a lot of times I'll be walking down the street and like, or I'll be like walking past a building and I'm like, who else right now on this street is going through something I'm going through or who in that building I'm walking past right now is like having the best meal of their life or like something very specific. Only now am I realizing there's a digital version of that of like, zoom right now is like getting fucking reamed out by the call. Someone right now is in a cult.

Yeah. It's just like so wild to think about. Anyway, sorry. I didn't mean to take over there, but yeah. Cause a lot of it was recorded via zoom and it's like, so awkward to watch. It's like, but it also makes you think like,

oh, if you were told, if you're a straight woman and all of a sudden, Veronica shows up on zoom and it's like, this is the love love of your life you should start like falling in love with each other imagine like now trying to flirt with Veronica and like it's so I mean I can imagine it because I had to do that with boys in high school but like I'm at I guess I that's why I empathize with that I'm like to know that you're uncomfortable with this to know that you're confused to know that this doesn't make sense but like the world is telling you like this is this, to know that you're confused, to know that this doesn't make sense, but the world is telling you, this is your only shot,

you gotta do it. To just be flirting with Veronica and knowing it doesn't feel right, but you've been told by your leader, you spent thousands of dollars towards that. And that's the love part, is both of you feel that way. So it's like, you're both like,

ooh, this is awkward. That was literally me and all of my boyfriends who also came out as gay later. We were all uncomfortable. Right, exactly. At least you were like, we both know this is awkward. That was literally me and all of my boyfriends who also came out as gay later. We were all in touch. Right, exactly. At least you were like, we both know this is fucked up. So anyway, yeah, they would say, we found your twin flame and how convenient.

They were also already part of this community. So now the testimony. They're also spending thousands of dollars a month on this cult. So many of the community, like I said, were women and Ascensionension coaches, which is what they were called. They began telling these cis women that their spirits were actually just masculine.

So that's why they were attracted to someone with such a feminine spirit. And they could they now that they we knew that they were divine masculine, they could be paired with someone who embodied divine feminine. And you're just confused because your body doesn't match what your soul feels like. It's like they were so money hungry, they became pro-trans all of a sudden.

It's so weird. Well, they actually interview a trans organization leader or something. I don't know what their title was, but somebody who works with the trans community very closely. And they were like, this was just a mess because talk about the worst possible representation of what being transgender is. This is giving it such a bad name. And Jeff pressured, like just an example,

Jeff pressured one of his own employees who was part of the program to adopt a masculine name and he had pronouns. And this person was like, that is not, like, I mean, it's a lot of people, it's so weird because I feel like it's almost the inverse and not at all in the same way, but it's the closest thing I can, it's a lot of people. It's so weird because I feel like it's almost the inverse and not at all in the same way, but it's the closest thing I can compare it to

of like the inverse of questioning your gender is like, I feel like as I've been going through my own gender journey, I feel like people have been questioning me nonstop of like, are you sure? Are you sure? You must be confused. This is a phase. And now you're part of a group where everyone's like,

you're obviously trans, please be fucking trans, please be trans. It's like, whoa. You're way too comfortable with your own identity. Yeah, or just say like, oh, you're cisgender, you must be confused. It's like, what? Like, that feels like an alien world to me, that like, the exact opposite of behaviors I've received

are like, all in this one community, just out of force. Well, it's like asking somebody, like, are you sure you're straight? Are you positive that doesn't sound natural? That doesn't sound right? Yeah, it's like that doesn't match society at all. It's just so weird to hear this. It doesn't even click with me.

I mean, it's such a bad look. Like, come on. Well, so, and I do want to say that there are actually some members in the community who ended up genuinely being trans and were grateful that like they were in a circle where they were immediately affirmed and praised for the fact that they were, I mean, granted they were being affirmed for like going along with it, not because they were actually trans and like she doesn't celebrate for the wrong reasons. But yeah. But like, it would be weird.

I can't, it imagine such a niche experience. I feel like any trans person in that community like has to like have each other's phone numbers and like just a trauma bond, because like it's gotta be so weird to come out in a world where, you know, there's a lot of like hate on that. But you happen to have found the one circle who is just like so excited for you because-

I know, it's like wow you really them corporately nailed it. Anyway, as I say that others were in an incredibly vulnerable place and in need of support and they've spent like I said thousands of dollars on classes already they were desperate to just find love and they were willing to do anything to make it work not because not only because they felt like they wanted to just find love but because they've invested in this company that told them, right, this is your whole purpose. Um, even if it meant not like living as someone that you're not. So, yeah, if they refuse to accept this though, then they were ostracized,

which again is so wild because if you came out as not trans, they would say, Oh, you're confused and you clearly don't want this enough. And you just don't understand how the world works. It's like a mind fuck. Even further because of this, the Twin Flame universe says that, they said that promoting spiritual gender over physical gender, which by the way is called sex,

not gender, but whatever, they're using it loosey goosey like the rest of the world. Physical gender, yeah, yeah. Physical anatomy, here's a quick lesson for everybody since we're all about PSAs these days, your physical body and anatomy you were born with is your sex, your identity is your gender, so in case you were confused about that. And anyway, so they say, well, because we were promoting spiritual gender over your physical anatomy, we're obviously naturally linked with the queer community.

Like barf, what are you talking about? Come on. So that was one of their selling- And they didn't even ask for that. Like, come on. So that was their selling point of like, we're inclusive with everybody. It's like, by the way,

that immediately makes you sound like an organization and not like an actual belief. Because if this is a spiritual belief, it's not up to you whether or not you're inclusive. You're just promoting something that is out of your control. But whatever, I guess as a corporation making a bunch of money, I'm so glad you're inclusive. Thank you. Yeah, wow. You know they would put like a rainbow logo on their Instagram during June or something. They probably did actually.

I wouldn't doubt it. Trans folks who were a part of this group also, like you mentioned, worry that this is perfect bait for anti-trans laws because so many bigots out there believe that you can just turn people aka children. They never care about the adults turning, only the children. They never care about the adults turning only the children. But they think you can just turn people trans or and the irony of these folks being forced to convert the other way just adds to all that. It's crazy. Yeah. But I mean there are thousands, thousands and thousands of trans people who have had to go through a forced conversion therapy and this in a different way was like forced into converting.

But so it just it feeds the stereotypes that you can choose your gender, you can choose how you're going to live your life and and that you can turn other people just by saying oh well obviously you're a man so you should be a man. And a lot of, you know, bigots out there think that trans people are going up to little children with a lollipop and saying, don't you feel like a man? You should turn into a man. Right. They can like point at this and be like, see?

You know, and it's, oof. So, um, anyway, it just feeds into that stuff. So extra not good. And things continue to unravel as Jeff began referring to himself as the second coming of Christ. Former members said that they were actually planning to move to a compound together and share property where they could all birth and raise their children together in a generation of golden children, which the twin flames who could not conceive, but wanted to have children

with their twin flame, or like if you're a queer pair of twin flames, I guess, and you lived on this compound and you wanted to have children, you could do so by sperm donation approved by Jeff and Shalea. I cannot. And any money that they made during their IVF or any money that went to them through donations would all go to Jeff and Shaleah, of course. And the couple has gotten backlash, duh, with Twin Flame Universe being called a dangerous

cult, duh, encouraging and resulting in crime, violence talking, suicide, and Jeff and Shaleah obviously deny any issue and they say that they have the answers, people just aren't willing to hear them, the answers aren't always easy, and Jeff told Vanity Fair of all people, I'm the second coming, I'm what was prophesized, and I say that with humility, I'm so fucking sure of that. Okay.

But there's no other way to say it. Jesus got the same response when he was like, yo, I'm the son of God. I'm the Messiah. My purpose is to enlighten the world, not be gentle with it. Okay. He's so nasty.

I can't stand it. Family members of people drawn in by twin flames are trying to gather evidence for a criminal case or a civil suit against the couple. I can't stand it. Family members of people drawn in by Twin Flames are trying to gather evidence for a criminal case or a civil suit against the couple. Some members are facing criminal charges of their own for all of the, like, horrific events they have, uh, been encouraged to do towards people that they claim to love.

And, of course, despite their involvement and intense culpability, the Twin Flame Universe School tells the people who are dealing with criminal charges after being encouraged by them, they're telling these people go sort it out on your own legally, financially. We are not responsible. Yeah, that's not our problem. You signed a waiver.

Yeah. And that is the cult of Twin Flames. That is, I mean, honestly, I forgot about half the shit. How bad it got. It's a rough one. And then it's so upsetting. And there's a documentary on Netflix too. That's really good.

Christine is watching. It's like three episodes, I think it's really good. It's slightly lighter than the traditional true crime documentary. And I say slightly, cause obviously there's some so much hurt and damage that happens and death as well.

But it's less gruesome, I guess, than some other true crime. So if you're kind of like my brother on the verge of like, I'm not really into true crime, but like maybe cult stuff, that it's definitely a good watch. But yeah, there was also like drama between the two of them, Jeff and Shaleah, that got like wild. And you would really like, I think it like this. I think what I'm cleaning today, I'll, I'll turn it on. I would recommend, but yeah, they're still active. I just Googled it.

They're like selling tickets to their, to their conference. So gross. That's so gross. Yeah. It's, it's, it's so gross. Yeah. It's... It's rough out there, folks. The two of them are so fucked up together, too. If you need something like a train wreck to watch. And the sad part is a lot of these people have completely lost touch with their families.

And their families can't get a hold of them, can't find them. It's very... I mean, it's a cult, you know? It's just sad. I'm still in a lot of forums from when I did my QAnon episodes. I still follow people who are losing, they're still losing people. I'm like, it wasn't QAnon, like, aren't we done with that?

And it's just never done. And so I feel like that really kind of opened my eyes to the fact that like with any cults, you're always gonna lose someone. I don't know when it ends, you know? Yeah, and like, how do you come back from that? I mean, people were getting pressured into gender reassignment surgery and it's like...

Wild. What the fuck? Like that should not be something you get pressured into. It's like unbelievable. If anything, people pressure you not to do it. Exactly, exactly. I really can't wrap my head around a world where like it's opposite day,

apparently for trans people. It's the opposite day. And like, why can't it just be nobody but you gets to decide that? But nope, apparently everyone has to say one way or another. Yeah, very creepy, very weird. It's, and I wish I got to watch the documentary. I'll watch, I feel silly watching it after the fact,

but there were so many links I ended up following and like I found excerpts on YouTube. So maybe I actually watched something from the documentary. You may have. I don't realize it. And I think the way that I would say watch it too is like, even if you do know it, cause I mean, you, I think you covered pretty much all of it I mean like I'm all of it that I know

anyway but I feel like it's also interesting to see the clips of it like see the actual conferences and shit like that and like watch the zoom meetings like it just gives it a whole new dimension so fucking creepy. Yeah yikes. Anyway that's my um that's all folks. That's all folks. Can I pee before we go? We sure can. Okay I'm also gonna go get some water. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay, so I have a story for you today. This is the story of Holly K. Dunn. And it is a humdinger. Well, it's not humdinger. It's a doozy. I'll put it that way.

Humdinger. Holly Dunn. Yes. Okay. All right. I feel like I I just put it in my Rolodex brain I have philofax if it was it was I had to make a whole new folder because I've never heard of it before so great gotcha Make sure you put a buffering on a floppy floppy disk You know, I just so I just got new glasses and I There I am a creature of habit. They're the exact same glasses But I got new Micro cloths, which I'm actually committing to using those instead of my shirt from now on and

I got one that looks like a floppy disk, which I thought was fun. Oh, that's cute Anyway, that's your that's the last fun thing I get to say before a horrible murder. So this is the story of Holly Dunn. A lot of this information comes from a book called Soul Survivor and it's really good. I haven't finished it, I've read most of it. It's worth the read.

In August, 1997, Holly Dunn was just kicking off her junior year of college at University of Kentucky, UK, Lexington. Not far from me, that's where I got my first COVID vaccine. What's the mascot there? The wildcat. What team? Wildcats. Oh. Wildcats.

You did it. Good job. Thank you. Okay. So she's starting her junior year of college at University of Kentucky and she had rented a house the summer between her sophomore and junior year with her friends who also attended the school. And it was her first apartment.

It was a crappy apartment. That's how she described it. But you know, she's young, she's living with her friends. It's a crappy apartment. That's how she described it. But you know, she's young. She's with her living with her friends It's a good time So earlier that summer she had met Chris Meyer I'm not sure if it's mayor or Meyer folks, but because it's spelled kind of an MA IER And I've heard it both ways on on separate occasions, but he was originally from North Canton, Ohio and They hit it off right away. They met at a

Buffalo Wild Wings and Wek location. Great. Great. And do you know about how that was the original name of it? The original name of Buffalo Wild Wings? Yeah. I know I call it B-Dubs, but I don't know what, what was the, what was it? Buffalo Wild Wings and Wek was the original name. Oh, oh, I thought that was, in my brain I thought you were talking about like which location in Kentucky or something. It didn't occur to me that that was actually the full name. I had no idea. Oh, yeah, so that's why it's called BW3 sometimes, because of the three Ws.

Originally, there were three Ws, Wild, Wings, and Wek, and Wek is a type of sandwich, I think. Oh. I never saw it as BW3. I always saw it as B-Dubs. That was just always how it was said. Oh, really? BW3, I feel feel like was something people used to say too. That makes sense. And then they got the WEC. It's I think a...

Oh, a Kimmel WEC. You know what's weird? Speaking of like kind of knockoff twin flame situation, my best friend in college, she... I worked at Chipotle and we were very connected and she was like, well when when you work at Chipotle, I'm bored, so I'm just gonna work next door at Buffalo Wild Wings and we'll exchange. Are you sure she wasn't in the cult and was like, I'm just gonna move my workplace

right next door to you. Well, it was five minutes down the road from school, so. But it worked out because we would exchange lunch and leave food on each other's car for each other and stuff. That's so perfect. And it worked out very well. And we would figure out our own schedules, and that would be when we would work.

It was truly just a way to kill time when we couldn't be near each other. Well, it's genius because you get free food, but you're like, oh, god, how much buffalo wild wings can I eat every day? It's like, oh, you get to have a different restaurant that you're not constantly smelling and looking at for free also.

She ended up working there, and she told me the day it happened, she was like, Oh, we're getting a new guy working in the kitchen tomorrow. Like I wonder what he's going to be like. And then apparently that guy showed up and like stared at her and like a really weird way. And this, I, because it worked out, it's not creepy. I know it sounds creepy. I know it sounds creepy. I mean, we've all stared at people. I don't know.

Well, I haven't finished the story, but. Oh, oh, okay. I thought that was it. I thought that was creepy. But he stared at her in a really weird way. And then at some point they like, I think they were like in the office. They were like ran into each other

and like in the office in the back or something. And he said something like, I'm gonna marry you. Like, he like just knew immediately. Whoa. And they ended up getting married, and they have like two kids now. So, but I... I mean, you're right, like, because it worked.

Because it worked, it's okay. Other than that, like, it would have been creepy. But I remember him like being like, I just know I'm gonna marry you. He's like, apparently the moment he saw her just knew like that's my wife. Aww. Isn't that wild? That's nice. Apparently the moment he saw her just knew that's my wife. Isn't that wild?

That's nice. Anyway, B-Dubs. Maybe they are, maybe they are soulmates. BW3s. They should have had B-Dubs at their wedding, I'm just saying. They should have, that was like their, no they should have had Chipotle

since you were the one giving them to buy on their lunch break. So they met at a BW3's and they were celebrating her friend's birthday. And I would like to let you know how they, how, what his pickup line was. I'm so excited. He said to her, Oh, we have the same feet. You know what? Or perhaps, perhaps he said we have the same toes. It was one or the other and it turns out she had been wearing these sandals and he was also wearing sandals and

both of them had silver painted toenails. That's love. I know! I was like, it's fate. That actually, it's feet. They're twin flames. It's feet. It's feet. It's feet fate. I thought that was so adorable and random. And like, what are the odds two people go to a bar

and both have like, you know, this is just really fun and random. Again, if at their wedding, they were not wearing the same feet, I would be mad. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wearing the same feet. Yeah, well, I hope so. But anyway, so these two hit it off right away.

He was six foot five inches tall. So he was he was all the girls in the group were like, who was that guy? And she was like, that's a guy I'm talking to. Thank you very much. We have the same goes back off. So they were they were connected pretty immediately. And he was this kind of guy who, so he's six foot five, but he's like a gentle giant. He's very kind of 90s hippie. He wears like a knotted rope necklace he made himself

and carries around a little trinket box with stuff in it, wear sandals. His toes are painted silver. I kind of already got that he was a free spirit. Free spirit, yes, precisely. He loved the outdoors. He was a big fan of Phish with a P-H. Oh, the band, yes, I see.

The band, yeah, yeah. They have quite a following. They sure do. There's no casual, I've never met a casual Phish fan. And so he, just like most Phish, I've never met a casual fish fan. And so he just like most fish fans I've met, decided to go to the fish festival in Maine that summer. And so, you know, they had just started dating and he went to the fish festival, fan festival

and brought her back a like a ring from one of those like bubble gum machines and was like, I was thinking of you while I was there. So this is the kind of relationship they had, right? Very cute, very in love. He was attending the university's theater program and majoring in lighting design. And meanwhile, Holly had grown up believing she would become the first female president of the United States.

Okay, girl. I know. Okay. So, you know, she's growing up, she's very ambitious, but as she gets older, her plans change. And she was now studying accounting in school and wanted to help her dad run his hotel business. So she wanted to get in the family business. So she and Chris are at school together, they're very excited for their futures, the fall semester starts, and Holly had already moved back into her sorority house for the school year, and as everyone else moved back onto campus,

there were like, you know, welcome week parties and all that good stuff, like the week before classes began. And so they started attending these parties to like catch back up with old friends. And classes began Wednesday, August 27th. So Thursday, August 28th, it's second day of classes and Holly and Chris meet up for an off-campus party after they both finished school for the day.

He picked her up from her house and because this is just the kind of guy he was, he brought a megaphone and shouted that he was there to pick her up for their date. He's just like that cliche classic goofy rom-com. Golden retriever boyfriend. Golden great guy that everyone loves. And she apparently wore her favorite Birkenstock clogs. So you know they're a match made in heaven. These are a shoe team. They are so right. Birkenstock clogs don't show your toes. Maybe she took the nail polish off and was like,

I don't want to admit it. They have fashion from the ankles down. I'm telling you. Well, what about that rope necklace? He made it himself. And from the neck up. Okay, okay, okay. Yeah, I don't know what the hell they were wearing in between, but it doesn't matter

because the accoutrements are stellar. So they go to this off-campus party together with some friends and Holly was very excited to spend time with Chris, but they felt like the party was kind of lame, and they decided to just go for a walk before the sun set. Chris used to live in this neighborhood, so he's like, oh, I know this area, let's go for a walk. And two of their friends, Mike and Ryan, who apparently can't read a room, were like, we'll

come too. You know who couldn't read a room. We're like, we'll come too. And they were like. You know who couldn't read a room? Alexander Schieffer. He couldn't read a room on July 4th, 2017. Remember he had, oh, I guess he read a room and went to Starbucks. Remember when he third wheeled my first date with Alison.

Oh, he aggressively read the room. He was texting me the whole time like, Em keeps telling me not to leave, but like this is getting so uncomfy. I was like, I don't know what to tell you, bud. You invited him and he didn't know it was a date. So. Here's the situation.

He did not read the room until he was there and thinking I should have read the room when everyone was making plans. That I think. Yeah, I don't know why you invited him on your first date. I did not. You did not?

It was an obviously Alison did. Oh, Alison did. Okay. Well, that's on her. That's on her. Let's blame Alison for it. The whole time I was like, ooh, Zanny's gonna have a rough time. He literally walked to the Starbucks that was the farthest away on Google Maps because

he was like, I do not want to be around here. I'm gonna go get us coffee, bye. I gotta say, every July 4th, 2017 though, I do think of him. He is always, we always do a little clink, a little clinky just for him because he was a real homie. It's funny, I wish, I think he wishes

he didn't read the room so he wouldn't have been like, holy shit, get me out of here. But I was like, you guys are at some festival. I'm not coming down there to pick you up. Figure it out. I know. Well, you weren't there. You weren't in town. And I know when he's asking me, he's like asking. I was like, you stay put. I do feel bad because it was literally like 4th of July.

And we were only there for fireworks. And then I felt like he didn't feel comfortable to watch the fireworks with us. I felt really bad about it. But it was the the the chemistry was popping and I felt very bad in a lot of ways. Don't worry he picked up on that. He was like, hmm okay my bad, it was not supposed to be third wheel in here, but he went to Starbucks and like talked to me for a while so you know he was fine. I'm so I just you know he does have a special place. I feel like every uh every anniversary of me and Alison I like owe him a place. I feel like every anniversary of me and Alice and I like owe him a gift.

I'm like, I'm sorry. I feel like his ears probably ring. He's like, huh, that's weird. I get the sense. I should just send him a Starbucks gift card every time. Be like, you know what this is for. I think just the fact that we're all still friends makes it very funny.

Like, I feel like if it had ended really badly or like, I don't know, it would be different, but it's kind of cute. It's kind of cute that he gets to be in your love story. Boy, okay. So anyway, he did not, these two guys were like, we want to come on the walk. And they were like, okay, sure. You can come on our romantic sunset stroll, I guess. So the four of them decided to take a little walk around the neighborhood. Eventually they reached the train tracks and were like walking along the railroad tracks and Holly and Chris were so completely absorbed in one another and the

chemistry was popping as Em says. So Mike and Ryan were like, Oh, let's go to Starbucks. Let's go to Starbucks. Happy fourth. see you later. They decided to head back and be like, you guys can have your alone time. So the two of them hung out. They sat for a while on the grass near the train tracks. They just talked and like,

I don't know, loved each other. Just were basking in each other's company. And after a while, they were kind of annoyed because No train had approached they were like, oh, let's watch the trains and they were there the whole time Not a single train passed. So it was getting late and the sun had set and they were like, alright Let's go back to the party and just head home But as they start walking back down the train tracks

Suddenly a man steps out from where he had been crouching behind an electrical box near the tracks. Oh shit. And the man asked, where did your friends go? Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh my god. That's it.

That's it. Oh my fucking god. So Holly realizes with quick certainty that he must have been watching them for a while to know that they were originally four, now two. So he demanded money, but Holly and Chris didn't have any. All they had were some beers that Chris had brought to the party in his backpack, which I also love that when they went for a walk, he's like, I'm bringing my six pack. Like they I'm not leaving this at the party for these losers.

I totally don't. He would do really well. These days I've been seeing like essentially it's like a sling that holds like a whole six pack of beers. It's like a, and I'm like, he was like a fanny pack, like a big purse. Yeah. It's a cross body, but it's truly meant just for like six cans stacked on top of each other tucked away. It's like a really long cross body. Oh, oh, it like stacks. I thought it was just like the handle kind,

you just stick it in, but like- No, it's like, it literally stretches it from your shoulder to your waist, and it's six cans can fit. Is it just cans? Or you can't, I assume you can't do bottles. That is wild. He would do really well with one of those.

And his megaphone and his silver toenails. Oh my God. And like, you know, he wore that thing you wore, which was like, what do you call that? Like that like kind of a boho hoodie thing. Oh, the, the Bajas, Bajas. Oh, they're called Bajas. Okay, that must've known that subconsciously.

But yeah, that kind of like college like hippie look Um, yeah the stripes the stripes like very heavy sweatshirts. Yeah. Yeah Wow. Yeah I think you're the only person I was ever like I ever knew who actually wore those like I literally like mr Rogers with sweater vests. I had one in every color. I was always in one There was have any? Mm-hmm. I have one from college. I couldn't part with all of them, but I don't fit in it anymore, but I still have it. I can't really, I would love to have,

I'd like to have a new one, but I don't know any 30 year olds wearing them. So like, maybe I should just like leave it in the past, but they were actually like, they're very nostalgic. I can't wait until Gen Z is like, look at this that we've discovered, but they've like cut off the whole bottom of it. And it's like, like'll cry like a crop top.

I know. Sorry to dis Gen Z for a minute, but sometimes I have to. Yeah. So anyway, he's brought this backpack of beer, right? And he's like, hey, guy, like, we don't have cash on us. Like we're broke college kids, but you can have my beer and my backpack and, you know, whatever else. Apparently, he was very insistent that this guy like not do anything to Holly. You know, if you need to do anything, talk to me, leave Holly out of it. And so, you know, Holly and Chris are standing there, they're trying to get this guy away

by offering him beer and their backpack, but they don't really have anything else to offer. So all of a sudden, like this guy's not happy with, he seems really keyed up, really anxious, potentially on drugs. And they're offering him like, oh, we don't have anything. And he just looks so anxious. And they're like, okay, this guy is like something's up. And Holly is ready to just like kind of make this work. But all of a sudden, this man tells Chris to get on his knees and Chris does. And Holly didn't understand. Like she's like, Oh my God, you're six foot five. Like why are you letting this guy like tell you what to do? And this guy also started using the

straps of Chris's backpack to bind his arms and legs. And Chris wasn't fighting back. And so Holly at first was really frustrated, not frustrated, but like freaked out cause she thought, why is he letting this guy do this? What she didn't realize is that Chris had noticed the man was wielding an ice pick and had that at the ready. And so when he approached and said, get on your knees, Chris was like, okay, you know,

he knew he didn't really have much of a choice. So once Chris was tied up, he moved on to Holly and he removed her belt from her pants and used it to bind her arms behind her back. Chris, like I said, was pleading the whole time, you know, leave Holly alone. You can do whatever you want to me, but leave Holly out of it. He offered the man his car, his ATM cards, anything. And the man told them, the man was getting more and more anxious and told them both to just shut up.

And he kept screaming, don't look at me, don't look at me. So the guy ran back into the dark to find a duffel bag. And while he was back there, he started tearing up some cloth. And he took that cloth, the strips of cloth back and used it as a gag. And while he was tying Holly up, she decided to stick her tongue out to push the gag farther away from her mouth

so that it wouldn't be as tight when it was finally tied. So smart. So the man told them that he had a friend with him and that man carried a gun and he would be back very soon. And of course, there's no way for them to know if that's true or not. They just kind of have to take his word for it. Then he came back again and again to his duffel bag.

And every time Holly was trying to get out of her binding, right, but this guy would come back like within a minute or within, you know, a very short amount of time. So she's trying, fighting like hell to get out of these binds while the guy disappears for a few minutes or a few seconds and trying to get rid of Chris's gag. And so eventually after a few of these

like back and forth trips, she does manage to get some of her binding off and she's able to get Chris's gag off of his mouth. And as soon as she gets the gag off his mouth, he tells her, get yourself free and run. But she refused to leave his side and plus she was still tied up. And she said, no, no, no, like,

I'm not gonna try and escape. I don't think that's a good idea. So the man returned, like I said, every minute or two and told Holly to stop untying herself, stop looking at me, was getting more and more agitated. And Chris just continuously begged the man to leave Holly alone. And after a while, the man grew more and more agitated until he left again, this time with Chris laying face down in the grass, still bound.

And when he returned, he was moving very, very slowly because he was carrying an enormous rock. Oh, God. Oh, God. Yeah. Oh, God. So, absolutely petrifying. This man is carrying this boulder.

It's at least 50 pounds, this huge rock, and he's moving very slowly and Chris, as he sees this happening as well and is lying face down on the ground, tells directly onto his skull, killing him in a single blow. So not only did this horrific, brutal crime just happen, Holly just watched it from feet away. Oh my god. And this is like her new love, you know? So I want to say a point here too, and I don't know I don't know, I don't

remember if I put this in the notes or not, but well, no, you know what I'm gonna say later, cause I don't wanna spoil anything, so she started fighting immediately she's screaming, she's kicking, she's trying to fight her way free out of her bindings when the man puts this weapon that Chris had seen to her neck and said, look how easily I could kill you and shoves it into her neck.

Yeah. So at this moment, she's still alive, she's still conscious, and she realizes fighting this man is not going to go her way. And so she focuses instead on surviving or, this is so sad, at the very least, leaving behind evidence so people would know where she'd been. She said as soon as this man looked at her after killing Chris, she knew he's going to rape me. And he did. So... Oh, I have goose cam. The story is just so horrific.

So... She knows this man's going to rape her. And instead of fighting, you know, this man has stabbed her in the neck So instead of fighting she's decided she's just gonna try and stay calm and survive this ordeal if she can So the man rapes Holly Just as the first train blows by for the first time in hours, it's almost like So fucked up and poignant like the train comes right then. And so during the assault, Holly just stares intently at the man taking in every

possible detail. She is thinking, if I survive, we will get you. And she's noting his scars, his tattoos, his, his facial hair, everything she can think of. And at one point during the assault, she actually heard a sound coming from Chris, uh, who was laying next to her and it was a gurgling sound. And she asked the man to please turn Chris over so he wouldn't choke on his own blood. And surprisingly, the man did go over and he looked at Chris and said, Oh, don't worry about him. He's dead. And he was. So what she later found out was that it was actually a death rattle that she was

hearing. So she, he had been killed in just that single blow. So as the attack progressed, Holly continuously tried to scratch her own fingernails into the ground so hard that pieces of her fingernails would come off to leave DNA behind. Oh, Em doesn't, I forgot you don't like fingernail stuff. So she was trying everything she could to like,

she was picking her cuticles off to leave like skin behind and trying to leave evidence behind in case she went missing. And then Holly decided to try a new tactic with her attacker. She decided to try and connect with him. So she said, my name's Megan. What's yours? She said, she just came up with that out of the blue. And he said, my name is James Whitford Spoiler alert, that's not his name. Okay, and so she tries to she tries to connect with him and she's asking like what? Are you going through?

What are you like seeking? Can I help you? Is there something I can do? This is just like a survival tactic Yeah, and so after all this and you know, she, oh what's your name? And he responds then he tells her I won't kill you and she said and I believed him. So after the rape he even helped pull her pants back up she felt like okay maybe I've done the right strategy my tactic is working maybe I'll survive this after all. He took an earring out of her ear and one of her rings from her as a trophy. And she actually was not, she had been wearing the bubble gum machine ring. Oh my God, Jesus. I know that Chris had given her from that fish concert, but in the struggle,

she had lost it and she never found it again. So that's, it's a little bit sad. she had lost it and she never found it again. So that's, it's a little bit sad. Um, but so he took one of her rings, not that one, a different one, and an earring as trophies. And he then covered her and Chris up with a pile of leaves and walked away. And she laid there and she thought, Holy shit, I survived. And she even said out loud as he walked away, thank you for letting me live. and she even said out loud as he walked away, thank you for letting me live. But before she could get up and run like hell, the man returned and this time he had a large wooden board in his hand.

He approached Holly and began just relentlessly beating her in the face and head until she stopped moving. Then he left her there beside Chris in the dark, but Holly was not dead. She had lost consciousness and was badly hurt and was breathing very shallowly, so this attacker thought she was dead, but she came to a little while later. And all she could tell is the middle of the night, all she could tell was that she was covered in blood and her mouth wasn't closing correctly. Oh my God. So she knew she needed immediately to find help. And that's what she did. She looked around and she saw a window that had the light of a TV and she walked straight toward it. It

was about 200 yards away. And she walked straight up it. It was about 200 yards away and she walked straight up, walked straight through the screen door into this house and this is the house of several university students. It's off-campus housing. I mean imagine, you know how nobody ever locked their doors back then? Basically this guy describes it, by the way his name is Chad. He's a senior at UK and he is sitting there doing his homework and watching TV. It's like two in the morning, ends up being like 2 49 when he calls police, 2 30, something like that. And he's just sitting there like watching TV. He's the only one of his housemates who's awake. And all of a sudden the door opens and this woman like out of a horror

movie just drenched in blood and like beaten to a pulp just walks through the front door. And apparently she says to him, I've been raped and my friend is still out there. So he ushers her inside. He says like he's just, you know, very much jumps into action. He tells her lay down on my couch and she goes, no, I don't want to stain it. Oh my God. Oh God. It's like this girl's near death. And she's like, I don't want to stain your, imagine four college boys. Like that couch is stained already. There's enough stains. You're fine. Don't worry about staining the couch. But she's so, she's like, just even in this moment, it's like, I don't want to ruin your couch. So he ends up obviously calling 911 and the way he describes it is it looked like she'd been in a boxing match because her face was just so swollen.

You know, you can, you could barely see the features. He also couldn't even tell where all the blood was coming from, but he, he was certain. He said that she was going to die on his couch. He was like, I just looked at her and thought there's no way she's going to make it out alive. This the police or the ambulance is going to come in time. So he kept talking to her, waited while they waited for paramedics. Every time she talked, she could feel her jaw like swinging loosely. I'm so sorry. I know it's really brutal, but she could just tell that it was not properly, you know,

attached to her skull. He kept talking to her to keep her awake until help came around 2 48 AM. And Holly kept telling Chad that her friend, Chris was still outside. And she seemed disoriented, of course, and kind of like not even in the severe pain you would expect, I think just mostly in shock. So she was, of course, immediately rushed to the hospital and she was treated for a broken eye socket,

a broken jaw, facial lacerations, deep lacerations on her head that had to be stapled shut over her hair because they couldn't even like shave her hair off to staple them closed. They just had to stop the bleeding. So her family came to the hospital. Her father was actually several hours away,

but he apparently had a private pilot's license. So he like hopped in his plane and flew straight there. So there was so much blood in her hair when he arrived that at first her dad actually thought, he later said that he thought she had dyed her hair between the last time he saw her. Like she must have dyed her hair red. And that there's no way that was all blood, but it was. And that there's no way that was all blood, but it was. Next, her sister Heather arrived. And of course, despite seeing Holly's horrifying condition, she remembers feeling so, so grateful

that her sister was just breathing at all and so relieved. But then that was kind of quickly replaced with this guilt imagining like, basically the way she put it was like, I'm over here sleeping in my bed and you are going through this. And I can, I can understand that feeling. Like I'm not saying that she has anything to feel guilty for obviously, but like I can understand that feeling of like, meanwhile,

I was just like drinking my Starbucks and like, you know, if somebody I love is going through this ordeal or what have you. Um, and so immediately her family's just horrified guilt stricken that they didn't, couldn't have done anything. And eventually Holly kind of comes to, and she begins speaking to her family and she noticed pretty immediately that nobody was mentioning Chris. And she kind of knew in her gut, you know, because obviously we know he's passed, but she had like,

lingering hope. Yeah. That maybe, maybe he had survived, but she finally just outright said, tell me is Chris dead? And her father said, yes, he is. So Holly needed surgery. So on top of obviously the just like deep-seated trauma of a rape kit of all the stuff that goes on after a rape She also has to get surgery to repair her broken jaw Has to be wired shut and because of these surgeries she actually had to miss Chris's funeral Which is just really sad to me. Oh my god which is just really sad to me.

Oh, my God. But as soon as she was able to, she wanted to get in touch with detectives to help catch this guy. She was like the second she said, when I was in that situation, I told myself, if I survive, I will find you. I will get you.

And so the second she is able to, she connects with detectives. And she described this guy, two detectives, as a man, a male, five foot six to five foot eight in height, wearing glasses. She described these glasses as sort of these black rimmed glasses and that his eyes were just pure black behind these frames. Like she couldn't see the pupils, or the iris, it's just black. were just pure black behind these frames. Like she couldn't see the pupil, it was just,

or the iris is just black. So she said he had wiry muscles, but he wasn't really buff. He had wavy black hair, Hispanic accent. And so detectives collected DNA from Holly's rape kit. They entered the crime in the national database of Island offenders, hoping like something will ping. But a year went by and there were no matches, no tips, or there were tips, but they didn't lead anywhere.

And of course, Holly meanwhile is trying to recover on all fronts. She is struggling with like severe survivor's guilt as far as, you know, she kept thinking to herself, like, if only I had gotten, like, his bindings undone in time, you know, like, she's just replaying it over and over. I mean, to just be that close and to watch as the guy who knows he had to know he was gonna die.

Mm-hmm. And for him to just be saying, it's okay, this is fine. And to just watch... Ugh. ...something so... There's's okay, this is fine. And to just watch something so... I think this is probably fucked up to say. Like, it's one thing...

I think when we imagine the worst thing that we could witness, we all kind of have a general top ten of things that you could witness like when it comes like watching someone get killed I feel like you expect it would be like a shooting or a stabbing or like And you think that's the unimaginable and just that the way that Chris was killed with like dropping a heavy rock on his head It's like beyond what you already think the unimaginable is. It's like such a unique Way. Yeah, like youable is. It's like such a unique way. Yeah. Like you're not even, like-

It's something you could never even prepare, not that anyone could really prepare, but it's something you wouldn't even know to prepare for mentally. It's like on top of- How the fuck? On top of what you think the worst thing could be, it only becomes even worse because like, that's a worst case scenario you did not prepare for.

So it's just- Right, you couldn't even imagine. It's so primitive too to just drop a rock on the- It is. It's so like caveman. It's so- Yeah, yeah. It feels very- And I'll mention this now because you brought up the rock, but she described it later as-

She described it later as, to detectives, as the man having dropped it, then picking it up and bashing him over and over, doing it over and over. But police said, no, it only fell one time and killed him instantly. And she had to come to grips with the fact that she, her mind just started replaying it so many times that she later thought,

oh, that was real. That was how it occurred. But in reality, her brain just started like immediate loop of watching this even during the moment. Like she genuinely remembered him doing it repeatedly. And the police were like, no, there's no way. It only fell down once and struck him once. So there's just a lot of like stuff she has to figure out and process, of course, guilt, trauma, all of it. I mean, she leaned on her sister, Heather, which was good. She called her her rock through her recovery. And, you know, during all this, Holly is just the most badass.

She goes back to school because she wants to get her degree. You know, during all this, Holly is just the most badass. She goes back to school, because she wants to get her degree. She gets a job. I'd be like, school's a joke. I'd be like, that's not fucking happening. I'd be like, nothing matters anymore, right? Like, I could not imagine pulling yourself, you know,

even up out of bed after this, but she was just so determined and so willing to like, so determined to get past this and like still be who she wanted to be, which is just a really awesome person. Um, so she gets this job. She even got a job at like an outdoor bike shop because she wanted, she said she wished she had had more time to adventure with Chris before he passed. It's like the most heartbreaking thing. So this is what is happening to Holly as she's trying to recover. Meanwhile, in December 1998,

which was 14 months after the attack in Lexington on Holly and Chris, Dr. Claudia Benton was murdered in Houston, Texas. And she was found in her home. She was a pediatric neurologist originally from Lima, Peru, and they found her in her home. She had suffered stab wounds, blunt force trauma to the head and had also been raped. And thankfully, the only silver lining, her twin daughters and husband were out of town visiting family when the killer broken. So at the very least, you know, they, they survived the ordeal, but it's so horrific and so brutal and personal and violent and invasive. And in May, he struck again, this time in Weimar, Texas. He broke into the home of Pastor Norman Cernick and his wife Karen. He murdered both of them in their bed.

And the weapon he used was a sledgehammer from their own garage. Oh, and like, do we ever find out the fucking reason or is this just an act like an Israel Keys, you were there kind of thing? Do I think it's just a you were there. Wow. Not that it, you know, but. Yeah, just like an attempt to like understand question mark. But yeah, like I was a drugs.

Can you at least tell me drugs? Like what like what causes a brain to do that? I don't understand. Well, we'll get to that debate later. There's a little bit of debate on that front. But as police are kind of gathering intel from these crime scenes, or not intel, but evidence from these crime scenes, they get DNA and fingerprint analysis that connects the two Texas murders.

And so at first they don't realize the one that had happened in Kentucky was related to the two in Texas, but they do have immediately connect the two in Texas. And when they put those into the violent offender database, all of a sudden Holly and Chris's attack pinged and they said, okay, so all three of these murders were committed by the same man. We know that now by fingerprints, by DNA. So notably the houses of both of the Texas attacks were near railroad tracks. He's a vagabond. He sure is. He's a, he's a, he's living on the trains. Not a good one. Yeah. He's at

least moving on the trains. So investigators realized that yes, the offender must be stowing away on freight trains and this is basically a really, really hard thing for authorities to track because there are millions of miles of train track and how on earth are you supposed to know which train someone's hopping? Yeah, and very, very little security on top of like at a train station. Yeah, compared to somewhere like an airport or a rental car, exactly. It's like there's no records, you know?

And so that is how they figure he's getting around, which is bad news, right? Because they're like, well, shit, now we have no idea where he's going to end up. And so they're comparing case details. And when the police in Texas see that Holly's attack, Chris's murder were related, they're thinking, oh oh shit, like this is a dangerous fucking serial killer. We've got a literal serial killer on our hands.

And because these attacks were all near train tracks and were all surprise ambushes at night, they described him, one detective described him as the boogeyman. They were like, he felt like the boogeyman. Like we didn't know where he'd end up. We didn't know who he was. He was just attacking in the dark and we couldn't predict where he would be. He once killed, for example,

two women in one day, 90 miles apart. Wow. And then fled to a different state the day after. So like that's how quickly he was able to attack and move on. So it feels very no rhyme or reason. Right. He's just like out there like the whenever he gets the urge, he pops off a train. Right. And just goes for it. Yeah. Finally, fingerprint evidence from Claudia's murder was used to identify a suspect.

This was a man who had repeatedly crossed the US Mexico border. So he was in documentation and he had been consistently voluntarily sent back to the Mexico side every time he was caught because he had been crossing illegally. And it was devastating to realize that this guy had been in federal custody multiple times because he kept crossing the border. And so for briefly, he'd be in federal custody and then sent back to Mexico. And they were like, shit, so we've had our hands on this guy

in between the murders, but like nobody would know that it was him, right? Oh, it was him, yeah. Right, like there's no reason to suspect him of a murder in Kentucky, you know? So the suspect became very quickly one of the FBI's top 10 most wanted for obvious reasons and Holly, meanwhile, feels like she's trapped in this gigantic waking nightmare because she's the survivor of this guy and nobody knows who he is. Nobody knows like where he is, where he's going to show up next.

The media called him the railroad killer because of the proximity of the railroad, of course, to his crimes. So now her bogeyman, so to speak, her attacker is not only like her nightmare, but also like now all over the news and has this like crazy nickname, the railroad killer. And she doesn't know like, is he gonna come back for me?

Does he know I'm alive? You know, it's just the fear there and the guilt there, I can't even imagine. So they do this nationwide manhunt for this guy and authorities stop trains at random, which I was like, I don't feel like that's going to work. I feel like there's too many trains to just stop at random, but I guess maybe they had like some pattern or some like clues. I don't know, but they apparently randomly stopped trains to search them. And would basically, which I think is actually kind of smart. They would fly a helicopter over as they began the search of the train to see if anyone fled like from the train.

I think that's actually pretty smart. Yeah, it is. It is very smart. I feel like that is the way to do it, because the second he sees you. You know how his dad would have taken his private plane and been like, I'll follow every fucking train. Oh, yeah. True.

Every train. I will do it. Every railroad. Yeah. So pretty smart. And meanwhile, tips are pouring in. But detectives told Holly that basically, people were just seeing.

They had obviously a sketch, but people were just seeing a they had like obviously a sketch, but people were just seeing a Mexican man and saying, Oh, that looks like this guy. Right. But it's like, no, just because it's a migrant worker doesn't mean it's the same guy. You know? So it's a lot of them were just kind of dead ends. And they told Holly that in truth That the suspect had kind of a common unassuming face like he he was he was the kind of guy that was kind of difficult to pick out in a crowd, so Thankfully she had paid such close attention by the way to like all his scars and tattoos and things just to prove that like she knew

What he looked like But most shockingly he ended up being arrested by immigration officials and deported on June 2, 1999, while the manhunt was underway and authorities just didn't get the memo that this guy that they're now releasing again is the guy that everyone's on high alert for. It's moments like this where I'm like, how do we, how is this a modern system? I'm like how- How does anything work ever? If this is how things go. How does anything work? It makes, this is like, not to sound like my philosophy

teacher from high school, but I'm like question everything. Like all of a sudden I'm like, I can't, this can't possibly be the best we can do, you know? It's, it's, it's, it feels outrageous. Like a comedy of errors, like really? this is the reality we live in? Great. So of course now things are utterly hopeless for Holly. They're not, but that's how she feels. She begins to fear that her attacker

is gonna see a news flash that she's still alive and come and find her. But then a tip came into the TV show, America's Most Wanteded and the caller said, I believe I am the railroad killer's sister. Which by the way, you go girl being like, I'm going to wrap my brother out. I don't even fucking care. For real. The caller claimed to be the suspect's sister who lived in Mexico and she was in touch with a mutual acquaintance of her brother and believed he was tired of running

and might be willing to surrender. So she tells this to the police. And at this point, he was wanted under multiple aliases for his crimes, both in Mexico and the US. And she believed that like he was kind of having a nervous breakdown because the pressure of running, being a fugitive was too much. So they thought this was like at least a good sign, like maybe he'll break,

like maybe we can get him. He's clearly like exhausted of being on the run, kind of like that guy from last week that I talked about. Yeah. So finally on July 13th, 1999, this man who they now had a name for, his name is Angel, Angel, Angel? Angel? How do you say that?

It's not your fault. I think you do it with a German accent. Angel. Yeah, I do, don't I? Okay, well how's the last name? Well in German you say Angle, so. Oh. Resendes, so, resendes.

Listen, the one source, everyone called him Angel in all the sources. So I mean, I would probably just say Angel because in the US that is how he is known. But in like, there was a British version of this story that I watched and he's like, Angel Resendez. And I was like, okay, he's trying way too hard. So I feel that I am a little confused and I apologize. But Angel or Angel Resendiz traveled with his family to the El Paso Bridge border crossing

to turn himself into US authorities on July 13th, 1999. And his sister later received over $80,000 in rewards for facilitating the surrender. I know, I was like, yeah, yeah, she deserves it. That must have been a really, really rotten time. So Angel was indeed an unassuming man. He was short, skinny. It was difficult for people to imagine that this guy could be so physically vicious and brutal of the things that he was accused of doing. physically vicious and brutal of the things that he was accused of doing.

I mean, imagine like a six foot five, like Chris was six foot five and he incapacitated him and murdered him. You know, so it was, it was hard to imagine, but of course the evidence quickly mounted against him and that left little question that he was the one, uh, the railroad killer. So prosecutors were determined to seek the death penalty for his crimes and with no way to prove his innocence of the acts themselves, Unheld decided, oh, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to plead not guilty by reason of insanity. And the prosecutor, I know, I roll.

And the prosecutors were actually really nervous because they thought, you know, there was an interview with the main prosecutor and she said, we were worried that people would look at him and go, yeah, like he must be insane. You know, how could a person do this in their right mind? Which like, they can. There are many people who do, unfortunately. We want to believe they're not in their right mind, but unfortunately they know full well what they're doing is wrong.

So they were a little nervous. The trial commenced in 2000 and Angel was considered mentally sound, thankfully, and capable of determining that his actions were wrong. So he was found guilty and Holly traveled to Houston to testify during the sentencing. And she described it as the most difficult day of her life. But she was also very like, what's the word, vindicated, you know, to stand there and speak. And the prosecutor asked her, the first question that they asked was, what did you do last week? And she said, I graduated from college. And that was, I know.

She's just a power move every time. Every time. And that was sort of her way of saying, you didn't break me. You didn't ruin me. You didn't end me. You didn't even kill me. And good luck in there.

And so she was not looking at Angel the entire time. Obviously. I would. Of course. No, certainly not. But of course then when she was finally asked to identify her attacker in the room, she of course had to point him out and describe him. And apparently she looked at him and said, it's the man in the white button down right

there. And apparently it was such a, like a, uh, a rush of either fear, adrenaline, or just stress. She nearly fainted, um, and almost collapsed on the stand, but she managed to complete her testimony. And, uh, the authorities working on the case said it can be difficult to express the human aspect of murder victims in trial because they can't be there to speak for themselves. So Holly knew, you know, I'm the, this is why the book came in, the sole survivor of this guy. Like, yeah, I'm the one who doesn't

have to, but like should speak on their behalf. And as she's like one of the strongest people I've ever heard of, she was like, yep, I'll do it. And so she spoke up, she pointed him out, even though she almost physically couldn't handle it. But what serial killer prosecutor gets the chance to have like an actual survivor who witnessed an attack and gets to stand there and say that's the man. As they say, a slam dunk. A slam dunk, nothing but net.

And so this was, you know, obviously a big boon for the prosecution and she was able to advocate for herself and the rest of Angel's victims. He was sentenced to death, which became controversial because Mexican authorities were trying to work with the US to have him extradited and the death penalty was not legal in Mexico and they didn't want a Mexican national to be executed abroad. So this becomes this whole international affair. But the US refused to extradite him and the courts also denied his appeals, which detailed diagnosed delusions in which Angel described himself as unable to be executed because he was half

divine and therefore immortal. Okay, Jeff. Yeah, I know, literally divine. Get a grip. He was executed in late June 2006 after his first appeal was denied. Holly chose not to attend later stating, I'd already seen one person die in front of me and I did not need to see another. That is fucking fair girl.

You do what you gotta do. And also just so chilling. In the wake of her attack, the trial, the execution, all of this stacking on top of itself. Holly was trying to heal. And in 1997, at her outdoorsy shop where she worked, because she was trying to have some adventure that she never got to have with Chris, she met a man who worked at the same store named Jacob, and they fell in love. And I don't know if he said, I'm gonna marry

you. But apparently, you know, on the first day in the kitchen or whatever your friends friends, friends, friend did. But he apparently was, okay, I'm gonna get teary eyed. But in my mind, I'm like, I feel like this is one of those stories where Chris like sent someone to help her because she said like this man helped her heal and helped walk her through everything, was sat through all of her trauma, was patient, was kind, was gentle, was strong. And she said, this is just the person that I needed to find. And the fact that she found her twin flame and the fact that she found him at the store she started working at in Chris's honor, I don't know.

I find it really poignant and beautiful. So in that way, I do believe in soulmates, twin flames, but not in the weird ass way that Jeff fucked it up. So he made her feel safe, unjudged, as she slowly worked through all this trauma. And she kept her memories of Chris close to her heart. She displayed photos of him in her home that she shared with Jacob. And he encouraged her to keep photos of Chris and keep his memory alive, which is just also

so beautiful, an understanding, especially for two young people. I just think that's so great. Yeah, to just be that mature. Mature. Yeah, it feels very mature. And they did ultimately get married and Holly continued. I know. It's like finally some happiness at the end.

Holly continued healing. She began doing talks, like giving talks to support other survivors of violence. And she found that talking about what had happened enabled her to connect to emotions she may have otherwise avoided and not look at them. But now she was able to talk through them and work through them. She's been on a lot of docu-series, you know, like the kind of specials on Discovery Plus and all that. And Chad is actually in a few of them.

Well, like he describes, like, oh, I'm just watching TV and this girl shows up covered in blood. So Chad, the college senior gets his little five minutes on screen. And so it's kind of cool. She's still speaking out. She actually founded Holly's House, which is a child and adult advocacy center,

which provides a safe reporting location for survivors of crime. That's in Evans, Indiana, I believe. I want to say Illinois, but I think it's Evans, Indiana. I could be wrong. Anyway, it's called Holly's house. Ultimately, Angel was linked to 16 murders. Whoa. Do we know what the number Holly and Chris were? You know what? I should know.

But I don't know actually what order it all happened in. I do know the way it's framed in a lot of stories, like in a lot of articles or not articles, but like recountings of the story, they kind of frame it as this serial killer was like going through and killing all these people and nobody knew there was a survivor until like they all linked it and they were like, Oh my gosh, somebody survived this, the railroad killer. It was sort of like, there's, he's this like bigger than larger than life guy running around killing people and, um, nobody knew that somebody out there had survived his attack, you know,

cause they hadn't connected it to the railroad killings yet. So I don't know quite what order, but it sounded like he was pretty prolific and pretty like fast because the fact that, uh, you know, he had, he killed two different women 90 miles apart in one day and then flood down. That's, that's pretty, and it sounds like an insatiable hunger for this. Yeah. Yeah. It's one of those where you're like, you know this is never going to stop. Oh no. After 16? And it's, I have such a hard time because it's like, I look at the prison system and

it's just like one of the most sad and broken parts of this country, I think. And it just feels so hopeless. But then, you know, and I'm like, I am not for the death penalty. And in fact, I'm against the death penalty. But then I'm like, well, but we have to have some system in place to put people like this away. You know what I mean?

It's like, how do we, I don't know, that's a bigger story for another day and for smarter people than I, but you know, it just starts my gears rolling. There is a, I'm very pro, people should be going into like rehabilitation places or getting actual help. But then there's also like, there are those weird one-offs where you're like, I don't think that person can be helped.

I think there's just like, I don't know what to do after that. But then the prison system is so flawed. It's like, well, I don't know what to do after that. But then the prison system is so flawed. It's like, well, I don't, I'm not supportive of that either. I like, I don't know what the right answer is. It's like, it's so it's like the healthcare system. It's like, it's so big and unwieldy. I wouldn't even know. I mean, especially me, but I think most people wouldn't even know where to begin unraveling the mess of it. It's just, it's, um, it's like a designed to fail type of system, right? Like there, it's just, it's not even broken. It's just designed this way. Like it's just designed to be fucked up. So it's, uh, it's just a tragedy anyway. Um, so yes, he was linked

to 16 murders. The oldest victim was 80 years old and the youngest was only 16. Terrible. Oh my God. So I'm going to read the names of the victims we do know that have been linked to him. Their names were Michael White, Jesse Howell, Wendy Von Heuben, Roberto Castro, Christopher Mayer, Leefy Mason, Fannie Whitney Byers, Claudia Benton, Norman J. Cernick, Karen Cernick, Noemi Dominguez, Josephine Convica, George Morber Sr., and Carolyn Frederick. And there was also a John and a Jane Doe.

So they were, they're still unidentified. Holly still speaks out about what she survived and gives talks and, you know, holds seminars. She is very, very involved in self-defense and promotes self-defense as something that all people should learn. And she said, you know, just the fact that I was able to sit there and I was, I knew enough at least to note where his tattoos were and his scars and try and talk to him and get, you know, she said like that's things, those are things that people, all people should learn and you know, so that you at least have a fighting chance

potentially in a situation like this. And she believes it's her duty to live her life to the fullest for Chris and for all the other victims. And in this kind of advocacy work, she finds peace with that survivor's guilt that she's been holding on to so long. So it's kind of how she copes with that guilt. And she believes she's, you know, living a life that honors Chris and the other victims. And in one interview, she said, I want to be the best person I can be because they didn't get that chance. I want to live for them.

I want them to be remembered. And it makes me cry a little bit. But every, I think it was every year, maybe every few years, Holly and Chris's friends all get together to like celebrate Chris. And Chris's family was actually extremely supportive of Holly. She was really nervous because she felt this guilt of like,

I survived and your son didn't. You know, and so, but they apparently got very, very close with her and were very just kind and supportive as she healed. And Chris's sister, who was like his best friend, reached out and was also very warm and loving with her despite their grief. And so much so that they actually shared some of Chris's ashes with his friends.

And they all got little trinket boxes like he had and put the ashes in their little trinket boxes. And they actually had his original, his original trinket box. Um, and they, uh, went to red river gorge here in Kentucky, which is a very, very beautiful spot. I've been to a bachelorette party or two down there. Um, but it was one of his favorite places to go and camp and hike and just like be outdoors. And so they all went down there and they scattered some of his ashes over

the gorge and they threw the little, his little trinket box into the gorge as well. And they continued to meet up and connect and celebrate Chris and celebrate his memory. So that is the story of thank God the survival of Holly K. Dunn. Wow. What a... Oof-a-doo-fa. What a bad story. And what a good story, I guess, for Holly in the end, but yikes. Yeah, yeah.

It's one of those... Rough terrain. Yeah. And I want to point out as well, sorry, her name is Holly Dunn. That's her maiden name, but she's now Holly Dunn Pendleton. So if you're looking her up and she has just done so much great work and it's so cool to look her up and see like all the stuff that she's working. I mean, it's just talk about being assigned quite a life here on this earth, you know,

to go through. It's just terrible. Talk about being assigned quite a life here on this earth, you know, to go through. It's just terrible. Yeah, then that makes me have a whole other bucket of questions like, why? About why on earth? Spirit world. Okay, you have to listen to that book. I know, I feel like we've gotten on this topic for a reason today. You got to listen to Journey of Souls. It answered so many of those questions for me. Of like, why, why, what's the point, you know? And I feel like it might be, it was a huge comfort to me. Who was the author of that? Michael Newton, I believe is his name.

And what's the other one you always plug Gavin De Becker? Oh yeah, and then on the true crime side, I got my paranormal Rex, I got my woo woo Rex, I got my true crime Rex. The gift of fear. Gift of fear by Gavin De Becker. Also, yeah, that's probably also something worth reading related to this story as far as like trusting your gut and self-defense, that kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. Wow.

Well good, good telling it Christine once again. And I mean, I wonder if like, I'm good telling it, Christine, once again. And, um... Man, I mean, I wonder if, like, I probably won't, but like, maybe one day I'll cover him because there's just so much more to, like, his actual crimes, you know? But, I mean, that would definitely be, like... That's just one facet of it. Right. Like, I listed the, some of the victims, or I listed the victims and then, like, talked about some of the murders, but there's some really

fucked up stuff. Like if you watch documentaries on this guy, the trophies alone that he kept would leave weird little clues at the crime scenes just to fuck with people. He's just a sicko. Very serial killer. Just cliche serial killer shit. All the way down to the solid black eyes. Literally, I mean, and the glasses, like thick frame glasses.

I mean, God. That's why I thought like maybe it was drugs or something. I was like, is this guy on like PCP or something? Like for his... So they, it's possible. I feel like the way she described it was he was like so jumpy and agitated. It sounds like he very well could have been. It sounds like maybe this was also at the early part of his crime spree.

And so maybe, you know, maybe he was nervous, like maybe he wasn't sure what was, how to kill somebody. Cause he kept lying about like, oh, that my friend is around here somewhere, you know. Right, but maybe he really believed it. Maybe he heard a voice in his head saying that, you know, like, I don't know. I mean, maybe, but I don't think he was really like, I think he faked the insanity plea.

I don't think he was really. I think he was just lying to keep them there, you know, saying like, my friend's watching too, so don't go anywhere. Yeah, all bad no matter what. Yeah, it's bad. So anyway, what do you want to do in after hours? What are we doing again? I forget.

Something about marriage.com. I was going to take that quiz. But I remember we were going to try Mind Melt also. Oh, right. Okay, we can do that. All right. So either way, I'm down. We can do that. All right. Well, if you want much more happier, entertaining content, please follow us on Patreon where you can.

Yeah, it is a much lighter time over there. It's like where we decompress from this show. If you'd like the banter part of the show and not the story part of the show, then head over there and we'll see you for an after hours. That's right. We can't wait to see you there. And. That's. Why.

We. Drink.