And That's Why We Drink - E374 A Big Queer Door and The Mulberry Bush of the Year

Episode Date: April 7, 2024

It's episode 374 and are technical issues bringing us closer together? We're so sorry, YouTube Boozers and Shakers, for the lag (we edited the audio separately so you won't hear the same overlapping issues there). We're making up for it with a new Compliment Christine segment. This week Em takes us way, way back to the origins and dark side of nursery rhymes. Then Christine covers the more recent Polish case of Krystian Bala. And has Em just dubbed Christine the "Princess of Pronouns"? ...and that's why we drink!  We wrote a second book! Pre-orders are open and super important for our ratings so treat yourself to our second spooky travel compendium, A Haunted Road Atlas: Next Stop here - http://bit.ly/HRANextStop

Hello everybody coming to you alive and by live I mean it's live as I record it but not as you hear it. Coming to you live from a hotel room because I could not wait to get home and say this into a real microphone. So sorry for your ears but listen up. Christina and I we love a cahoot. We like to get into them especially together and we got into a big one recently. And by recently I mean really like a year ago when I said, Christina we gotta spice things up. I don't have enough headaches in my life. Let's do something, but at the end it's gonna really wow everyone.

And Christine said, you got it dude, where do I sign? And we, my friends, can finally tell you we wrote another book. We wrote another book! Another one, as DJ Khaled would say. So we wrote another one and it is called a haunted road atlas next stop and we are very proud of it. If you like the last one you're going to like this one. It's full of charm whimsy pictures because you know I hate dry text and it's got 30 cities of fun. Some of them we've covered on the show before some of them we have not. There's road games in there, there's a whole lot of silliness in there. We're very, very proud. But we do need your help because when it comes to ordering the book, you can wait until September

when it gets out on shelves, or what actually works out better for us numbers wise is if it's pre-ordered. So if you are so inclined to pick up another book written by me and an actual cryptid, the Hercing Shifter herself, then you can pre-order that bad boy. And you can do so by clicking the link in our social media bios or in our show notes, we're going to have them in our episode notes. So you can click the link there. We're going to have them in our episode notes. So you can click the link there. Um, if you like a URL, you can just go to bit.ly, which bit.ly, uh, slash HRA next stop. But if for some reason that doesn't work, or I said the link wrong, um, again, you

can click it in any of our bio notes or our show notes. So, um, very excited to finally tell you, you have no long, no idea how long we've worked on this, um, and we're just, I'm just very, very lucky that finally tell you, you have no idea how long we've worked on this. And we're just, I'm just very, very lucky that I get to do this. So, please, please, please go enjoy it. We wrote it for you and we hope you have fun with it. A Haunted Road Atlas, next stop. You know what my favorite thing about you is, Christine? Today right now.

Okay, I'll just tell you. I was waiting for a, what Em? Tell me, I gotta know. Hello? Hello? Em, you froze that whole time. You said, I'm going to say something nice. And then it just completely went.

And the computer said, no, actually. It's as if maybe I shouldn't say anything. I just know that it was recording locally on your end. So whatever you did say, the rest of the world heard. But apparently, it was not for my ears. Oh, no. I said I wanted to compliment you and then I waited for a long time for you to seem excited and you didn't so I was like well I guess maybe I just won't do it then. I probably seemed afraid because the whole screen went. Okay let's try again you want to know something nice about

you Christine? I mean I'm afraid but yeah, I would love to. Please, please, I love this new segment you've created at the start of our show. Go ahead. Well, one, your skin looks incredible, but two, my other thing was actually that I love that when on your screen where it says your name and your pronouns, I like that she, her sounds like she, fur.

I feel like you've probably gotten that before. Okay, you've brought this up before on the show. It really gets me tickled every time. Okay, so we, and then I got in a lot of trouble. Why? Because last time you brought it up, I made kind of a flippant remark because somebody had written in that they were kind of upset about, because on Beachy Sandy we used to say, she, her, she, fur, like that was kind of the joke. we on Beach to Sandy we used to say she her she fur like that was kind of the joke I do remember this slash she for remember that time I cried in the green room on tour the time where I came in and I just

burst into tears and everyone was like what the hell is wrong with you and I said it's my turn to cry because everybody else had already cried. That was because somebody wrote in, I was very kind of upset that I had sort of made a flippant remark on, and that's why I drink, about how somebody had written in saying they were uncomfortable with the use of she, her, she, for. And then-

Why? I don't know. They said that we're making light of pronouns. I'm not really sure, but they, again, I hear I go making flip, I'm not trying to make a flippant remark. So we stopped doing it on Beach Too Sandy, okay? We completely stopped.

We said we don't want to hurt anyone or upset anyone, even though it was really one of my favorite things. I like it. And we could have like a little pin designed for it. I like it, especially because both of our names rhyme with it, because she, she her and em they them. Wait a minute. But apparently that's flipping.

I don't know. It feels like we're just making it very clear where we stand. I feel like some people have been upset with me discussing pronouns because they say that I'm kind of upset. Alexander and I just got another email of somebody who was upset that like, I guess this is why I drink, because we did get an email saying, they were upset that we got confused

when my brother was talking about, he said something like, oh, they, and I thought he meant like a group, like two people that were in this review, and he meant they as a singular pronoun, and they were like, you're contributing to the confusion around, and I'm like, honestly, I think just talking just talking about

Using they them pronouns as a normal pronoun everyday pronoun is not I don't think it's I mean maybe pronouns I don't know I just feel like why not make it a light-hearted like fun to talk about like normal thing to discuss instead of like Tiptoeing around it on eggshells, right? Like I just don't understand. Also I feel like as the they them in the room, let me make it clear that when words, when words are homophones, you get, you get confused sometimes. Yeah, exactly. It's just how language works.

And to be honest, it was like part of the joke. Like, you know, we weren't, whatever. Long story short. Canceled. I'm upset about my use of pronouns in a lighthearted way. But I feel like that's kind of a good, I mean, just correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like discussing pronouns as if it was any other aspect of a personality or identity is not belittling them.

Like, I feel like pronouns are so important to discuss, and I don't want to tiptoe around them like they're sacred. We can talk about it. Yeah, I feel like at this point, if people don't know where you stand, I don't know what to tell you. I don't know. I would like to think that one day in a perfect world, we can make fun of each other's pronouns or we can make fun of each other's names, where it's like we are not invalidating the fact that they exist. It's just like, if a joke comes around and it's like not harmful, why not? Right, and I wanna be clear here too, like if people are listening,

my brother does not listen to this podcast, so like please don't go yell at him. This is me, if this is upsetting you, like if you're, if you feel, I'm not calling anyone out. I'm not trying to call anyone out. I'm not trying to invalidate that anyone was upset or hurt or what have you. I really am not. But I just, I thought I'd share my experience with the

she, her, she, her and why we don't really talk about it on Beachy Sandy. But I do, I was very tickled when I found out when it occurred to me that she, her, she, her kind of rhymes and them rhymes. That's fun. I think it's fun. I don't know. I know I don't speak for all people, but speaking for myself is fine. But whatever. I mean, you are the empire, so you kind of do speak for everyone. You know what? You said it on me.

Okay. So, wow. Sorry for really just enforcing the reason why you drink. And it's like- That's probably why my computer froze. It was like, you actually don't want to be part of this conversation because you're gonna get triple canceled. That was God's last try to keep you from bringing it up.

No, I try so actively. I don't try to not get canceled. I like to think I don't have to try that hard. But I try to be as cognizant of people's feelings. But every now and then, things still slip through the cracks. So I apologize if I offended anybody. I promise you, not my intention. Anyway, so Em, now that you know why I really, it's really, I promise you not my intention. Anyway, so Em, now that you know why I drink,

why do you drink? Oh, well I guess I feel bad that I caused that whole kerfuffle the second time. No, I'm glad you opened a door for me to talk about it. I opened a big queer door for you. I drink, man, I'm just so sleepy, Christine. My sleep is just even worse than normal. And so-

That's actually, I feel like, now we're in the red zone. I feel like you exist in a permanent sleep state of like orange threat level, and now we're like, uh-oh, uh-oh, danger. Like, I'm like kind of in like a nodding situation. So I was like kind of in, I'm in like a nodding situation. So I was like, oh good, I'll be slap happy. Maybe this will lead to some good conversation. Maybe it'll lead to some bad conversation.

Are you gonna fall asleep like I did on the show? You know what, I'm owed one. So I actually feel less bad now. Well, I mean, to be honest, it's like shocking that I fell asleep once and you didn't. You fall asleep so easily. That's so true. Yeah, right? I'm so much better at this than and you didn't. You fell asleep so easily. That's so true. Yeah, right? I'm so much better at this than you.

You are. You really are. It's true. Oh, no. You know what? That does make me feel better that if I were to doze, I've got a pass, a hall pass. You do.

You have a hall pass, but only one. But only one. Yeah. I can't mess it up. It has to be really worth it. So I'm not going to do it today. But only one, yeah. I can't mess it up. It has to be really worth it. So I'm not going to do it today. But where, yeah, I think that's, I don't really have a reason why I drink. I thought you were about to say, where am I?

And I was like, okay, you need to use your hot pass today. Go to bed. Yeah, no. I luckily know where I am physically, mentally. That's good. Absolutely not. Yeah, no, I'm okay other than being sleepy. If I took a really good nap right now, I'd be a 10 out of 10.

So we're just going to rock with that. Instead, we're going to work. How does that sound? Wee! You know, I'm so lucky that my job is, like, the worst thing about my job is, like, one of the best things you can do. Is that you can't sleep. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's like the worst part of my job is I get to hang out with, like, a best friend and, like, talk about things we enjoy. Yeah, it's kind of wild. That's a pretty good life. It's like the worst part of the job is that we can't just sleep the whole time. Ugh, you said it, sister. But, you know, that's any job, right? But the rest of the job is fucking A-OK.

A-OK, yeah. I'm feeling good. So I, what was I going to say? I don't remember. It's going to be a lot of that today. Good luck. Probably a story, I think you were going to say, but I mean, what do I know? I do have a story.

Well, so I have, I guess something to talk about. I don't know if it's actually a story. It's kind of, it's not even really a one-on-one. This was in me being already so sleepy, I decided that these would be the notes. And so I went a little half cocked today. Is it like your receipt from the doc, like your health insurance paperwork or something?

I just decided these are my notes for today. I just looked around and said this is it. I'm actually just gonna recite my medications for you. Honestly, that could probably fill an hour for both of us. Yeah. Yeah, I went off a little, I don't know, off the deep end and decided, oh, I'm gonna cover this. And it's not paranormal, but it is dark and grizzly,

which I hope still fits people's, fills your desire of the macabre. So, wow. Wow. All right. Yeah. Just get ready. Just enjoy. That's all I gotta say.

I'm going to tell you some fun facts. The whole thing is basically fun facts for you today. I love that. We all know we love that. We all know you love that and you know we love that. It doesn't even matter what anyone loves. It's what I love and I love a fun fact. You're like, honestly, thank you for your input,

but irrelevant. So let's get back to this. We've done enough of these. It's time that we're just honest with ourselves. Okay, all right, fine, it's not about us. Okay, okay. I decided, I was inspired by our last episode where I mentioned Mary had a little lamb.

Oh, fun. Where that was actually a fun fact from a previous episode, so now that fun fact has inspired these fun facts. What a fun chain of events. Isn't it? So I'm going to talk about the dark side of nursery rhymes. Yay. Oh, shit. This is my German self is tingling. So I want it because of that.

I wanted to make a caveat early on that I'm not going to be discussing anything that starts from like the Grimm brothers. Like this, it's not stories or songs, or it's, I guess some of them are songs because they're nursery rhymes. But I had to like figure out which ones to cover and which ones to not because they blend together. It's all people have like entire PhDs on like one fairy tale from the Brothers Grimm. So yeah, I can understand why it would be maybe not the best idea to go broad on this one. Yes. Also, thank you for saying Brothers Grimm. I said Grimm Brothers and I was just gonna coast, but then you- It's the same fucking thing. Anyway, so these are the like sing songy two, three liners that we-

Love it. Like playground chants, as you will. And so I wanted to, because if you look at like even, like we just talked about with Brothers Grimm, those stories are like fucked up. Like all of these have horrible origins. So we're just sticking with nursery rhymes today. So start with a fun fact real quick. Do you know when nursery rhymes began?

When rhyming began? I don't know. That's probably actually the right answer. It's like a trick answer. It kind of is because I feel like as long as oral traditions have existed, it's probably a trick question. But officially nursery rhymes began in the 14th century where they were like meant for children and they were limericks to help with

cognitive development, I guess. And terror. And terror. Mental, mental. Never forget. Mental illness, yeah. Anguish, yes. They started in the 14th century,

but I guess they weren't like really a thing until the 18th century, which is considered the golden age of nursery rhymes by the way. Oh, who knew? Which I guess since, I mean, you haven't really heard of a new nursery rhyme recently. They don't like come out with new ones anymore. So they all come from that, I think that era and just keep telephoning into new, maybe new versions now.

I was going to say even the new ones are based on like traditional ones, like I think that era and just keep telephoning into new, maybe new versions now. But they're all the same from then. I was going to say, even the new ones are based on like traditional ones. Like even the new, like more modern ones are usually like a play on the original. So yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. So it makes sense also then why a lot of our nursery rhymes today are so fucked up because they are from a time when these things maybe weren't seen as so fucked up, I guess. Right, sure. So anyway, fun fact, they come from the 18 when these things maybe weren't seen as so fucked up, I guess. Right, sure.

So anyway, fun fact, they come from the 18th century, most of them. The first nursery rhyme collection was from a book called Tommy Thumb's Song Book, and it comes from 1744. That was the first, like, booklet of rhymes. And quick shout out to nursery rhymes, despite their content. They are very helpful with young development. They help kids learn vocabulary, rhyming, spatial reasoning, rhythm, structure, grammar. It helps you sound out words.

It helps you memorize stories before you can read. And according to one person in child development, if you teach a kid eight nursery rhymes every year, then they will, like, there's some, like, wild percentage jump in their reading comprehension when they're older. Because they have, like, a, they have a bigger toolbox to work from of words and vocabulary and rhythm and all that. So. That makes sense. So fun fact teach Leona at least eight of these.

Got it. I was gonna say, Jesus Christ, like I'm doing enough, right? Like can I just take a minute break for a minute? I don't need to do teaching her more anything. She's teaching enough. She's learning enough. You know with how dark a lot of these nursery rhymes are, maybe instead of teaching her eight of those, she just listens to eight of our episodes and it'll be exactly the same in terms of trauma.

Oh, perfect idea, especially because they're many hours long. I've, you know, she's already memorized Mothman ABC's the book, so I feel like, I feel like that's enough. That's 26 letters. If someone can make our podcast rhyme, handled. I can, should we just start rhyming? I'm not on the fly.

I'm too tired for that. But give me another day, and absolutely. OK, you kept talking. I was going to rhyme with your last word, but then you kept adding more words. And I was like, you know what? You're making this really difficult. And I feel like I want to make it rhyme,

that you're not giving me the time. So next time, I'll try when I say bye bye. That doesn't even make any sense. You know what? That's the closest thing to poetry. I've read a lot of nursery rhymes today and that's the best one I've heard so far. And it had the least problems to it too, by the way.

Honestly, that's probably where I go right. It's like, I don't talk about, like I leave the dark shit for my actual episode, not for the fun rhyming portion of the way. Honestly, that's probably where I go right. It's like, I don't talk about, like, I leave the dark shit for my actual episode, not for the fun rhyming portion of the episode. Well, one of my favorite things I stumbled upon, which I forgot the, I don't know who to give credit to. There was, it's one of the websites I have in

at the bottom. I'll take it. So I don't know who to shout out. It was probably Mental Floss, because that was where I got a lot of my information. But somebody wrote a nursery rhyme today about something fucked up to give you an idea of how it might've sounded when it first came out in the 18th century.

Oh, that's genius. And so they were like, if a nursery rhyme with this level of dark content existed today, this is how uncomfortable it should sound for us. But imagine children just like singing it and dancing on a playground. Okay.

Jeff the chef loved his fresh guests. He invited them in and they all lost their heads. Jeff the chef didn't have enough beds, so he had to make room in all his ice chests. And apparently that's about Jeffrey Dahmer. Oh, fuck. I see. Yeah, I get it now. Yeah, it's like, oh, that could be catchy. And then you don't really think about it. It just sounds a little off. And then when you get older, you're like, wait a minute, someone should do like a dissertation, like a psychology dissertation on how effective rhyming is immediately when it comes to dissociating from like the harsh reality of something because as a big fan of limericks I can tell you

there's a strong correlation I can promise you that you could talk about anything and as long as it's rhyming you feel 50% better about what you're hearing it's almost like oh the harsh truths of the world are softened. The blow is softened. Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, enough people eventually did realize how dark some of the tones

were in these nursery rhymes. And they founded the British Society for Nursery Rhyme Reform. Whoa. And because most of the nursery rhymes are from England. So I guess that's they looked at their own list of nursery rhymes are from England, so I guess that's, they looked at their own list of nursery rhymes and went, way to tick. What have we done?

They decided to clean up a bunch of their rhymes and by 1941, the society had condemned a hundred of their own nursery rhymes for referencing, quote, poverty, scorning prayer, ridiculing the blind, plus 21 cases of death, 12 of animal torment, and one case each of consuming human flesh, body snatching, and the desire to have one's own limb severed. The desire to have one? Okay, this is okay. And those are all condemned. Those are all condemned. That was 1941. So like imagine what would be condemned. Today. Imagine, that's, that's bananagrams. Okay.

I have to be honest. I did look for the poem about desiring to have your own limb severed. Didn't find it. But I did want to know. Struvelpeter is basically, he carries, I mean, it's not desiring, but he carries around big scissors so he can cut your thumb off. So I guess that's close. Same difference. I mean, it's not desiring, but he carries around big scissors so he can cut your thumb off.

So I guess that's close. Same difference. I mean, the only difference between a cautionary tale and a nursery rhyme is one's shorter and sing songier. Yeah, I feel like the Germans were like, we're not going to make this fun and rhyming and easy for children. We're going to make this as traumatic and blatantly upsetting as possible. I feel like the Germans said, here's Struelpeter and then the Brits were like,

um, let's sing about it instead so no one notices. Like it just very quickly turned into like, but we still have to talk about it for some reason. We'll do like, instead of just being normal around our children. It's like a bing bang bong. Like what you heard over there, let's, let's just get to the quick bullet point

and we'll sing about it, and then no one will really know what happened. Just like pick up a jump rope and no one will even think twice. You know, if you're jump roping, you're not paying attention to the lyrics. Oh, nothing wrong. So here are a few quick ones that I'll read to you

just to like, the fact that we sang them and it, or even like, like you know hummed them together chanted them together i don't know what the right word is but we said them on the playground it didn't even affect us there was an old lady i was probably in the corner chanting them and everyone else was like can you stop and like play jump rope and i was like i feel like you were chanting my nursery rhymes i feel like you were chanting them backwards or something. Yeah, yeah, I was adding Latin phrases and was like, where did you come up with that? Your eyes actually went pure black. So this is just a quick example.

One is there was an old lady who swallowed a fly. And the line is, I don't know why she swallowed a fly. Perhaps she'll die. Perhaps she'll die. You know what? And I love that nursery rhyme. I don't know. Did you like where it said, there was an old lady who swallowed a horse. She's dead, of course.

Yeah, because I thought that's fun. But you know what? Part of me feels like I thought about it so literally where I was like, of course she's dead. She swallowed a fucking horse. Like, she wouldn't survive that. Well, that's what I thought. it so literally where I was like, of course she's dead. She swallowed a fucking horse. Like she wouldn't survive that. Well, that's what I thought. Like she would not survive. Why would you do that? Yeah.

Yeah. And I thought about it so literally I wasn't even thinking about like the why am I being taught this? Yeah, same. Also Tom Tom the Piper's son. Do you know this one? I don't. It's Tom Tom the Piper's son stole a pig and away he run. The pig was eat, but Tom was beat. And Tom ran crying down the street. So immediately, I feel like I'm trying to channel

like my grandpa of like back in the day, it didn't mean anything. Cause like, I feel like this was a cautionary tale about like don't steal or like earned the right to get beaten or something. Right, right, right. I mean, I don't think that long ago that right to get beaten or something. Yeah, right, right, right, right. I mean, I don't think that long ago

that would have been an upsetting concept. Yeah, exactly. There's also, this one was just, I don't know who this was warning. It only just instilled a fear of birds, but in Sing a Song of Sixpence, there is a phrase, "'The maid in the garden was hanging out clothes "'and down came a blackbird who pecked off her nose. Oh

My god, so I feel like that actually deters children from doing chores. It's like well, I'm not going yeah and being outside I mean, yeah, that's a little seems a little backward. Did you know this one or the one before the Tom Tom one? I didn't know those but uh, okay. They were quick one-liners One that we both do know though is it's raining, it's pouring. Leona's saying that yesterday. What should I do? Maybe she does know more than I thought. Maybe she is a great reader or whatever you said earlier. If she comes up to you after the fact and says, mommy, why did he have a concussion

and die in his sleep? Oh, that's true. He never woke up. That's right. Of course I know that. He went to bed, bumped his head and couldn't get up in the morning. Which I guess could have just sounded like he had a headache and he just didn't want to get out of bed.

Yeah, I mean there are days I can't get up in the morning and I'm not quite dead yet, you know? And like bumped his head implies that he didn't crack his fucking head against the headboard. Crack his head. It's no humpty dumpty situation. But like, it's, but yeah, went to bed, bumped his head hard enough he couldn't get up in the morning. That makes me see, that makes it feel,

I mean, unless it's, they're separate entities. He happened to bump his head, but he also happened to be really drunk from the night before and he was too hungover to get up. You know? I mean, but also he's snoring. So it's like, okay, that implies he's alive, at least through part of the night, you know? Yeah. You know what? You're right, that one he's alive, at least through part of the night. Yeah.

You know what? You're right. That one's fine. Let's keep it. Okay. Okay. Leona, you're good. Now, this one I don't know enough about.

Only one source said this, but apparently the song, This Old Man, was warning children about creepy old men being inappropriate with them. Now I will say the song is a little bananas, but kind of in a way where like, I don't even know what I'm singing. Like this old man he played. Yeah, I just thought he played knick-knack on his thumb or something.

This old man he played. Four. One, he played knick-knack on my thumb. I don't know how that, knick-knack, patty-whack, give a dog a bone. This old man went rolling home. What the fuck is that supposed to mean? Honestly, all of these fucking cautionary,

they're like, oh, well, don't steal a pig or you'll get beat. And then it's like, oh, but when we're talking about child predators, we're gonna make it so obscure and convoluted that you'll never actually learn anything. You know what I wonder though, and I didn't do enough research on this, I will own that, but I wonder if this old man

is like written in Cockney, because it's supposed to be like a coded language where like you don't- Oh, so maybe it's just like a dialect that people would have understood that we don't anymore, or like we don't in the US. Let me see, give a dog a bone. Well, give a dog a bone. Is a phone.

So do we know what Nick, Nick, Patty, whack means? Nick, Nick, Patty, whack. Is that what it means, man? I don't know. Okay. Hang on. Let me look at Nick. This old man came rolling. I mean, I know what a knickknack is. I got about a thousand of those. Nickick-knack, patty, whack. Knick-knack, patty, whack.

What does it mean? Patties, as they were known in English, would sell knick-knacks. According to the theory, this is from Lad Bible, so excuse me. According to the theory, when they tried selling their items door to door, they'd be given a whack and sent on their way, while their dog would be given a bone, as in the song. So maybe a creepy guy showing up at your door? I don't know. It was also only one source.

I feel like maybe we were reaching there. Yeah, it feels a little bit like reach. I don't know. It sounds like a door-to-door salesman just keeps getting rejected. But like everyone likes his dog, so the dog gets treats. That's not, that doesn't sound too bad. Let's keep that one. I'm fine with, yeah. And that sounds actually, I mean,

I don't really like door-to-door salesmen anyway, and I do like dogs, so it still stands true. It's still actually very relevant in today's society. Especially as people hate people abruptly showing up at their home more and more, you know? Yeah, the millennials are really re-adopting this nursery, right? Fully. Give the patty a whack or give the dog a boat or something. Is the patty back?

Just don't forget the dog. Dog tell the patty to get out of here. Tell him to roll on home. So actually, you know, that was one of my favorite ones when I was a little kid. Well, Raffy sings it too, so I feel like. Raffy got me good a few times. Yeah, he really revolutionized the whole nursery rhyme industry as far as I'm concerned, with zero reference points for saying that.

You have one reference right here. I don't know what you're talking about. There we go. That's right. That's all I need. Just say a source and no one has to know. A source told me. And it may have been mental floss, but it also may have been M. So who knows?

Okay, so here's another one. This is where they do actually start to get dark. Those were some silly ones. You know, ha ha ha, the man is abusing children. The child predator. Yeah, right. Okay. But here are some with some actual like meteor backgrounds that I could find. Okay. So Baa Baa Black Sheep. Do you know this one? Uh oh. We sing this every night. So I'm already in trouble.

Excellent. Well, apparently people, well, okay, let me do this first. This came out in 1731, a top charter, I'm sure. Billboard number one for weeks. I feel like in 1731, you didn't have a lot of competition. A lot of it was like, you know, playing on the piano. I feel like you just had to have access to write something or have a piano, which most people did not. This one had words, you know? Right, right, right.

It's probably immediately Tony, Grammy. Banger. All of it, yeah. know, right, right, probably immediately Tony Grammy banger all of it. Yeah Yeah He got all the way Bob. I got award winner. Yep. We we know it so Bob a black sheep. Have you any wool? Yes, sir. Yes, sir three bags full This is actually about allegedly Sources say this is about the great custom, which was a 13th century medieval wool tax.

Oh, and in this tax was created by King Edward the first. He decided that for every sack of wool sold, if a farmer sold a sack of wool, only a third would get to go to the farmer and profit. The other two thirds went to him and the church. Oh, okay, I'm seeing. And so in the original song, I don't know if these are the lyrics anymore,

but in the original song, it was yes or yes or three bags full. One for my master, one for my dame. One for the little girl who lives down the lane. And I say one for Leona who lives down the lane. Although maybe I should change that, I don't know yet. Well, no, that part's not too dark. The original lines were one for the shepherd boy

crying down the lane. Oh, geez, okay, yeah, no. We've changed that, I think, in modern times. So he was originally crying because he sold wool and only got a third of the profit. Sad. So that was sad. Plus, I guess black sheep compared to white sheep

were they didn't sell as much because you couldn't dye their fleece. And so they already were less money than the white sheep. Okay, well, I think you'll appreciate our version, which is that we just keep singing it and we keep making, so we'll be like, Blaze and I will take turns sometimes if we're like in a hotel and she wants one of us sing

and it'll go like, ba-ba, tie-dye sheep, have you any wool? Or like, ba-ba, glow in the dark sheep. have you any wool? Or like, Baba, glow-in-the-dark sheep? You know, we change the color every time. So I'm glad that I don't have to cancel myself over that one. You don't. But there have been people,

which I feel like this is where you sensed it might be going, people have thought maybe there is an association with the fact that black is not as good as white and the freight the word master being in the song right that part's not great yeah a lot of people have questioned if there's some racial messaging there its official history is unknown we don't know if there's any actual you know meaning to that but a lot of schools have banned the song from being

quoted or they have switched the word black to something else. Apparently a lot of them have switched to rainbow sheep. Oh, that's one of my lines too. Perfect. So you're right on. Try tie-dye guys. It's really fun. Well while we're here and while we're early in the episode is where I'm going to bring up like the actual horrid shit just so we can then be a little more playful later, not end on something so intense, but it is also important to mention. So talking about Baba Black Sheep, that one we don't know if it had any racial undertones

to it, but there certainly are some that- You don't say. We just don't say anymore. One of them, Eenie Meenie Minie Moe. Yeah. So, for those who don't know, it used to not be a tiger you were catching by the toe, but a racial slur. And there are a bunch of variations on that song.

They were all equally horrible. They were all using the racial slur. But through and through the song was openly, directly about catching enslaved black people if they tried to run away. So we've changed the word to tiger, but you know, historically not good. Another one, which I feel uncomfortable even saying this, is Ten Little Monkeys, which that on its own is now another not good word, just put in the place of a much worse word, if we're comparing words, I guess.

But yeah, so that used to be a song, a rhyme, but it was from 1869. And it was originally not even that phrase, 10 little blanks, it was 10 little blanks. I didn't know that. It was very direct. Also, Agatha Christie wrote a book with the same title, which ended up getting renamed.

But both of them, both the song and her book, were about 10 different ways someone could die. The song specifically was 10 different ways that little black children could die. For God's sake. But it taught white kids how to count. So that was what it was all about. Wow.

Yuck. So it was heavily used in minstrel shows along with songs like Zippity Doo Dah, Turkey in a Straw, and Do Your Ears Hang Low. So all of those in case you're- Wow, I'm learning a lot because I feel like I sort of vaguely knew, like I've maybe seen some TikToks or listicles,

but like it didn't really stick. But now that you're saying them all together, it's like, oh geez, yeah, there are a lot. There's a lot. There's also Oh Susanna, Jimmy Cr and camp town races just as some of them There's another one. I can't remember. Oh, Susanna. What is the do you know the story on that or not really? Um, No, I just saw a list the banjo on my knee now. I'm afraid I shouldn't sing it. There's another one about banjo on my knee. Now I'm afraid I shouldn't sing it. There's another one about some someone in the kitchen with Dinah that one. Oh yeah. I feel like that's I

feel like that I don't know I'm reading into everything all of a sudden but I I'm scared of all of it. All I know is that Bugs Bunny was singing these by the way like so of course this is just a reminder that like it's not like if you didn't hear it's like some people didn't hear, it's like some people didn't grow up hearing it. Very popular cartoons were singing it. It was a big time thing. So this is where I just do my PSA that nursery rhymes were not always meant for everyone

to enjoy. Not to scare anyone who's older than us who is just unpacking a lot of privilege but a lot of people say like oh well there's just racism and everything if you look hard enough yes including nursery rhymes. Wow you nailed it. That's exactly right. It was teaching white people all the way from early childhood before they could even read to sing about the suffering of black people. It was instilling in black children who heard this song that they should feel less than. It was indoctrination at its finest, indoctrinating generations to have racist ideologies and not even know what they were singing about.

This is a quote from one of the sites I was looking at. Early on, children were being taught how to hate and how to engage with anti-black rhetoric. Hating black people was woven into their education and their play. And I just wanted to do it. The fact that's, that's what's disturbing too. Sorry to interrupt you. No, no. The fact that it's part of the play makes it so insidious because, or makes it so damaging because it's so insidious. Like, you know, oh, it's just a silly playground rhyme. Well, that's an easy thing to sweep under the rug

if you have that attitude. And so you can kind of just say, oh, stop being a snowflake, it's just a rhyme, you know. Or even, I mean, people saying like, oh, it's just a joke, it's not a big deal, it's just a joke. Exactly. Or, oh, it's just a word, it's just a word in a song, but I can't sing about it.

Literally, with nursery rhymes, I feel like there could even be like, little five-year-olds being like, oh, I can't even say it in a song, but I can't sing about it. Literally, with nursery rhymes, I feel like there could even be like little five-year-olds being like, oh, I can't even say it in a song. It's like, yeah. I can't even jump rope to it. Yeah, exactly. It just feels like, of course it stuck around for so long, because it's veiled in rhyme and fun little catchy sayings.

And then if you don't really look any deeper, which why would a five-year-old look any deeper? They don't know better. It's just like, of course that's stuck around for so long. It's very insidious. This is what we were saying to earlier about songs, like how quickly you can dissociate from the meaning of something if it just rhymes and sounds fun. Because even as we're unpacking things actively, and I encourage all other white people to be doing the exact same thing, by the way,

if you're not yet, but there are so many things that we're actively trying to unpack any privilege, any racism, and yet I'm telling you things right now that I didn't know until I read this, you probably didn't know until I'm saying it, and so there's always something new to learn. And the fact that these songs came out in like the 1800s, right at the crux of all of this, and then generationally was passed down because it's a fun song to teach

a five year old. And then like Barney sang it, you know, it's like, wow, that's so it makes sense why it's still deeply rooted in society because even as we're trying to not be like the generations before us, we're still singing songs where our kids not paying attention to the history of them. Yeah, and it's a lot of work. It's exhausting and it's a lot of work, but it is very important. So I appreciate you bringing this to the table.

Just before your kid is singing a song that was rooted in a menstrual show. I am appreciative that you're telling me this now before she can really sing, you know, so I can kind of intervene if necessary. So thank you for that. This is also where I shout out, I mentioned this in another episode a long time ago, but Turkey and the Straw,

which is one of the songs that is very deeply rooted in racism, that's like the ice cream truck song that everyone knows. And a few years ago they had black artists come in and create a new ice cream truck song. That's a cool song. I just wanted to give that a shout out again. So if you are driving past an ice cream truck and it sounds different they have updated their music. Anyway, okay, so now we've talked about the important things. Now we can talk about the things that are not as horribly rooted in societal collapse. Okay, so let's talk about Goosey Goosey Gander. Do you know about that? No. Okay, so there's a this is a poem from 1784. And here's just one of the lyrics.

I'll just leave leave this with you. There I met an old man who wouldn't say his prayers. So I took him by his left leg and threw him down the stairs. I'm sorry, I shouldn't have laughed, but what the fuck? And children just sang it and sang it and sang it. Apparently this was, the theory is that this was about 16th century Catholic priests because during a time where Protestants kind of were taking over, it was illegal in some areas to be Catholic. You had to like say your prayers in secret. And so I guess the story was if you're Catholic, we'll throw you down the stairs. But some folklorists

have also said that even if it wasn't meant to be that, to be this new updated version, I guess then it's not a new version lyrically. But instead of talking about Catholic priests, a lot of kids will talk about this while they're like playing with like daddy long legs, spiders. Because one of the lyrics is old father long legs can't say his prayers. Let him by the, take him by the left leg and throw him down the stairs. And so-

Oh no, so are they herding the spiders? So I know you are an animal activist, but I do know quite a large portion of children when we were kids who would just take legs off of daddy long legs. What? Just pull them off. What?

Yeah. You pulled off. What? Yeah. You pulled off the legs? I didn't fucking do it. I didn't want to touch a spider. But you said we, so I just want to make sure. We is a collective. I know a very large amount of children who did do this. So I know it was kind of common.

Oh my God, I think if I saw that I'd be traumatized, but I'm also just a humongous baby, and I would just sit in the corner chanting in Latin, as we recall, so maybe I just wasn't part of that group. But yeah, I remember, my memory of Daddy Longlegs is that they were always so scary because they're so big and then our teachers were like, oh, they're actually really friendly and never harm you

and if they're on you, you can just blow on them and they'll go away, so that was my memory of Daddy Longlegs. I did not know about all this other shit. My memory is them being de-limbed. That's horrible. But you know what? It's just a way to say it again, say it double, double, double, double, double.

A double entendre. Because, I mean, as we're singing about throwing people down the stairs, why wouldn't we be ripping people's legs off at the same time? So it makes sense. True point. It makes perfect sense. just perfect sense you're raised to have no empathy you're right you're right that's exactly right just keep keep keep telling yourself that everybody and also if you happen to be someone who used to rip

legs off of spiders for shame for shame also though you know I used to do fucked-up shit and I'm sure I told you guys I used to draw with the little red bugs. To be honest, I know it's sick, but I shouldn't even be shaming people. I'm sure I've densed and fucked up shit with bugs and stuff. I feel like I'm being hypocritical. I feel like I would have been a kid who did that if I wasn't so scared of spiders, but I was not interested in holding a spider to then rip apart. That's I mean, maybe that's part of it, too. I don't think I would have been

Actively seeking that that experience out. Yeah anyway, so the Not that I've heard this song before I haven't heard goose goosey Gander, but the last time it was popular, I think people were singing it and making it a daddy longleg song versus being a Catholic 16th century priest song. Wow, how charming. So old father longlegs can't say his prayers, take them by the left leg and throw them down the stairs. That's so great. Children were singing that.

It's delightful. Also about Catholicism while living in Protestant England, there is the song Ladybird, Ladybird, which goes, Ladybird, Ladybird, fly away from home. Your house is on fire and your children are gone. Oh, Jesus. I thought I was going to say, and your children are home. They're going to burn to death, but I guess that's implied. Oh, yeah. Well, doesn't that make that actually probably good that they were missing? Yeah, they're not there.

I thought you were going to say, the house is burning down and your children are home. And I was like, oh my God, somebody get those kids out. No, they're gone. Well, yeah. Because they were in the fire. Okay. Yeah. Well, yeah. Because they were in the fire. Okay. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I gathered that when you said they're gone

because it sounded so drastically sad, but I also thought, oh, maybe. I thought it meant missing and I was like having a whole hoorah over here. Also not great. Okay, ladybird, ladybird, fly away. Fly away to home, your house is on fire and your children are gone, all except one called Ann,

for she has crept under the frying pan. Like she survived because she hit, if I had to hide under a frying pan, I would be dead. Let's be clear. You're like, one of our fingers would survive or something, but like, how do you fit? Okay, okay. Anyway, so that's the whole song I think.

And the ladybird is supposed to be representing a Catholic living in Protestant England because ladybird comes from the Catholic term our lady. So it was code for a Catholic person despite it being illegal at the time. So the fire may refer to the Catholic priests who burned at the stake for their beliefs. Okay.

And that's all I have to say about Lady Bird, Lady Bird. Okay, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow. Next is a personal favorite. This is Lucy Lockett, who I've never heard of. Oh, okay, I was like, that's a favorite? I've never heard of it, but it's a new favorite. It's a new favorite. For you. It's just a one liner. She's real quick, but Lucy Lockett lost her pocket and Kitty Fisher

found it. Nothing in it, nothing in it, but the binding around it. And so here's the story. That's about me at the bar with my ID and I left everything on the floor and got robbed. So one of the people is a barmaid. Oh, there you go. So you were right. Both of them are sex workers in the 18th century, Kitty and Lucy. Lucy was also a barmaid. So she was doing a bunch of side hustles. Popular sex workers.

And Lucy lost her pocket. Lucy Lockett lost her pocket. Her pocket, at the time, that was slang for a John, or one of your regular clients in sex work. I thought it meant a pocket book. Okay, so, okay, gotcha. I also thought that until I looked it up. Yeah, so pocket, I guess,

because they would fill your pocket after. You know what I'm saying? They were the source of the funds or whatever, yeah. Yeah, so if you lost your pocket, that meant you lost a client, essentially. So Lucy Lockett lost her pocket, that meant like you lost a client, essentially. So Lucy Lockett lost her pocket and Kitty Fisher found it. So all of a sudden Kitty Fisher scooped up the John that Lucy got rid of. And nothing in it, nothing in it but the binding around it is basically the whole thing is

that Lucy later found out after losing her client that Kitty started seeing him and this caused a bunch of drama. The spat was apparently very well known back then between Lucy and Kitty. Oh wow so this is a real story? I guess so. It says it was very well known at the time the the fight between Kitty and Lucy. And Kitty claimed that she, oh, this is the nothing in it, nothing in it, but the binding around it. Kitty ended up going around town talking about this fight she was in with Lucy, claiming that she found a ribbon around the guy or when she next saw him, he had a ribbon around him and sex workers at the time, kept their

money tied around their thigh with a ribbon. So it was almost like, oh, she claimed him because now he's he's got the ribbon around him. It was kind of like a, like finding out that like, you broke up with your girl at the milkshake diner and then you see her pinned from like another guy's pin is on her jacket. You know, that's like, oh, she's going to study with someone else now. That hurts.

Every time. So Kitty's binding is around him now. Uh-huh. It sounds dirtier than it probably is meant to be, but okay. Yeah, so Kitty's got him wrapped up in her ribbon. Gotcha. Wow, it gets dirtier every time we say it. Sure does.

Anyway, I love that children are just singing about like, apparently a famous fight between two sex workers. I love that they're like, oh, but everybody knew. I'm like, oh, this one's not even subtle. Okay, gotcha. Another one is Here We Go Around the Mulberry Bush. I sure know that one. I do too.

So that one was from 1840 and apparently it came from England's Wakefield Prison. Oh! Because there was actually and there really was a mulberry bush in the prison yard and this is where the female inmates were forced to, if they were going to exercise they had to do daily walks around the mulberry bush. Oh shit. And apparently, this is, I saw on a few sources that they had their kids too, because I guess back then if you had, you just like kept raising your children while in jail. Oh, excellent.

So you're just moms and kids walking around the mulberry bush in prison together. And here's a fun fact. If it's the same mulberry bush that people allege it was, then that mulberry bush has been on the prison grounds and was on the prison grounds through 2017, from 1840 to 2017. What happened to it? It died of a beetle infestation. Let's write a song about that.

But it was a contender the year before so in 2016 it was one of the runner-ups for the tree of the year prize and I don't know if that means like out of all the trees in prison or like in town I don't I don't know. Oh gosh. I get why it'd be tree of the year if there's a whole nursery rhyme that's hundreds of years old. But anyway. Tree of the year? I don't mean to belittle it,

but tree of the year is quite something. Also, isn't it a bush? Okay, anyway, go on. You know, I feel like tree of the year is something that like a cartoon tree would be like shooting for by the end of the movie you know it's like I will make tree of the year one day dad will be proud of me you know dad will be proud of me and I'll be able to sing and play

sports yeah everything's possible okay another one is pop goes the weasel that one I know oh sure yeah that one is Pop Goes the Weasel. That one I know. Oh, sure, yeah. That one is about poverty in England. Where apparently, this is why I mentioned cockney earlier because cockney is used in this where the weasel is cockney for a suit or a coat. Okay, sorry. So now I think I'm confused

because I feel like are there multiple Mulberry Bush songs or am I just making that up? Oh, are they the same song? That's what I'm confused because I feel like are there multiple mulberry bush songs or am I just making that up? Oh Are they the same song? That's what I'm saying Like I thought this was the song all around the mulberry bush the monkey chased the weasel The monkey thought it was all in fun But pop goes the weasel or whatever and then but the other one is here we go around the mulberry bush That was off tune, but you know what I mean. It's a different song. I guess why are there so many mulberry bushes? that was off tune, but you know what I mean. It's a different song, I guess. Why are there so many mulberry bushes?

Maybe they're the same tune. I feel like in the 1800s, they came up with one tune and just ran with it and just picked new words. Mulberry bush, mulberry bush. No, it's a different tune. Here we go around the mulberry bush. So, wait, maybe that's the wrong song. I'm fucking myself up here.

Here we go around the... Isn't it here we go around the mulberry bush? Here we go around the mulberry bush? Here we go around the, yeah. Here we go around the mulberry bush, the mulberry bush, mulberry bush. Here we go down the mulberry bush. So early in the, I don't know the rest of the line. I think they're the same song,

they're just different words. This is the way we brush our teeth, brush our teeth, brush our teeth. Okay, that's the next verse in case you're wondering. So maybe pop goes the weasel. It's the same. in case you're wondering. So maybe Pop Goes the Weasel. It's the same. No, it's different. Because this one goes all around the mulberry bush,

the monkey chased the weasel. That's different. No, that's not monkey chased the weasel. No, Pop Goes the Weasel isn't. That's not the lyrics to Pop Goes the Weasel. Pop Goes the Weasel. No? Pop Goes the Weasel is different.

How does it go? Now you're freaking me out. Hang on, I'm looking up the lyrics. Maybe I just combined them in my head. Like, I thought they were the same. It's like Tuppany Rice and Treacle or something, right? What? What does that mean?

I guess maybe this is like the old school lines. Maybe they did change it. So the original lines, which is what I have written down, half a pound of Tuppany Rice, half a pound of treacle, that's the way the money goes, pop goes the weasel, no? Okay, okay, but then what about the one like we sing literally at Leon's story time that's like all around the mulberry bush, the monkey chased the weasel,

the monkey thought it was all in fun till, and then everyone goes, pop goes the weasel that's how we do it at story time so I don't know if that's just a new version or it feels like they collabed and created it almost feels like they got mixed together yeah it is one of the more popular singing songs although the first written records of the song dates to the mid 19th century it's believed the origins go further back to the 18th century in England. Okay.

Oh, there's a UK version and a USA version. So you're probably doing the USA version. Oh, I guess so. The UK version was published in the 1800s. Yeah, okay, so the one I'm talking about is the original UK version. Okay, all right, all right. So this is just, they just add mulberry bush maybe

because it's a different story with Mulberry Bush. It's kind of like when Cardi B features on a show. It's like, oh. It's the same as that. Mulberry Bush is featuring guest spot on Pop Goes the Weasel. Well, she does, Cardi B is also featured on Pop Goes the Weasel, at least the one I know. Well, so, yeah, that does, I wonder if it's because the songs are so similar

that we just slammed them together. That's probably what it is, because when I looked it up, it looks like one of the verses from the original was like round and round the chestnut tree, so maybe they just took Mulberry Bush because it's the same amount of syllables. Yeah, so the one from England is about poverty in England, where essentially it's listing

things that they had to sell or they had to pawn the weasel for. And weasel was cockney for your coat or your suit. So the first line is about like food that they wanted to eat. And then they say, well, pop goes the weasel. Like, oh, I have to pawn this thing now to be able to afford that. The second verse is about a night out at a music hall. The third one is that like wanting to get drinks, which I love the children are just singing about like getting fucked up,

but they have to pawn something for their alcohol. Like I can't even get a pint. Yeah. Oh, here it is. Half a pound of Tuppany Rice, half a pound of treacle. That's the way the money goes. Pop goes the weasel. And then it keeps listing things and it goes. Pop goes the weasel. And then it keeps listing things and it goes.

Pop goes the weasel like here, now take the coat off my own back or like the shirt off my back basically. Well, I'm gonna have to figure out how to afford this. So pop goes the weasel. Wow, okay, that's interesting. Where's the drinking one? Oh, so it's also cockney.

I think it's cockney. It's at least slang. It was at least slang at the time. Weasel is definitely cockney. I don't know about these two, but one of the lines is, every night when I go out, the monkey's on the table. So that's where you're thinking about monkey. That is where it had to have, it had to have grabbed from that. Take a stick and knock it off. Pop goes the weasel. And apparently monkey on the table and take a stick and knock it off. That was slang at the time for alcohols on the table

to knock it off meant to drink it, to knock off the alcohol from the table is to grab it and drink it. So anyway, love that it was just dubbed, but kids were saying, I gotta get fucked up. Time to sell my shirt. Oh, you know you gotta, come on, give them the benefit of the dollar.

They're not getting fucked up. They just want one or two to take the edge off. Yeah, that's sweet. A little buzz. So another song, Rub-A-Dub-Dub. Like splashing in the tub, thinking everything was all right. That one?

No, okay. So. I mean, okay. So, uh. I mean, I'm serious, that's not it, because I did learn that in elementary. I did know, well, I think, are you thinking of the song Splish Splash? Just. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, nevermind.

No, Rub-A-Dub-Dub, I feel like I heard it before. I think I'm mixing it up with like, Rubber Duckie from Sesame Street. Rubber Duckie, you're the one. Yeah, that's a classic. Classic. Don't ruin that one for me. Now, that one's actually about poverty in England. Yeah, that's a classic. Classic. Don't ruin that. Now that one's actually about poverty in England. No. So there's two versions. There's a more

popular version now, which sounds very fruity. Rub a dub dub three men in the tub. And how do you think they got there? The butcher, the baker and the candlestick maker it was enough to make a man stare. So that's the new version. I like it. Okay. Which I love. I kind of just want to keep it there. I especially want to keep it there when I hear the original version. I think in the game of telephone, I think the word just got mixed up and now that's what people say. I think that's what happened is that the word just got mixed up because the original version is rub a dub dub three maids in a tub.

How do you think they got there? The butcher, the baker and the candlestick maker and all of them gone to the fair. And so translated TLDR, they were at a peep show and they were watching Three Maids in a Tub. Oh, they were like putting a show on. Yeah. So like the butcher, the baker and the candle slick maker were all at the fair, go into a peep show and see the Three Maids in a Tub. I got a little worried that the butcher put the girls in the bathtub.

Oh, interesting. That's where my true crime brain went. I'm so glad that was not the case. Anyway, I like them being gay instead and just having like a kiki versus like. Absolutely. Okay, cool. So let's stick that with that. Agreed.

Here's another kind of gay one. And by kind, I mean for sure. Georgie Porgy, putting in pie. Do you know about her? Yeah. Can I say her? I'm she hering Georgie Porgy. Sorry, my lights went out.

It's as soon as I'm talking about the gay stuff, it gets a little romantic in here. Okay, Georgie Porgy, pudding and pie, kiss the girls and made them cry. When the boys came out to play, Georgie Porgy ran away. That's how it goes. Ironically, I grew up hearing the gay one because my recess was homophobic, I guess.

But the song that I heard growing up was Georgey Porgy putting in pie, kissed the girls and made them cry. When the boys came out to play, he kissed them too because he was gay. And I think that was just like kids being dicks, but it actually, ironically, is about the lover of King James I.

Oh, so the kids like read between the lines without even realizing it and were like, haha, it's funny to be gay, but like in reality, that is the underlying meaning of this story. The underlying meaning is that it was this guy named George, I think I'm saying his name right, Villiers. He, there's no, it's very heavily implied that he was the lover of King James I, and that they had a very intense friendship.

Ooh. And they were roommates, probably. But so King James I ended up being so close to George that he kept giving him new titles, gave him power and influence. And I don't know if Georgie was in love with King James or was like maybe manipulatively doing this just to get power. I don't know. But the King even dissolved parliament twice to keep him from being impeached, to keep George from being impeached from his own titles. Through the relationship, he was later named the first Duke of Buckingham.

There's allegedly King James publicly said to people, you may be sure that I love the Earl of Buckingham more than anyone else and more than you who are here assembled. Gay. Go off king. But you know, like his dad was like, Oh my God, how's your friend from college? I hope that your business partner is doing well. I'm just so glad that you to see that you have solid friendships. Yeah. What a good friend. While they were hooking up, allegedly, Georgie Porgy was also a womanizer. So he was hittin' and quittin' quite often. So he kissed the girls and made them cry.

He was also sleeping with a lot of the daughters and wives of noblemen, and he kept getting away with it because the king would protect him. So when the boys came out to- So that guy's bad news. He's just a fuck boy, and like for everybody. No one's safe. And so when the boys came out to- So what guy's bad news? He's just a fuck boy. And like for everybody. No one's safe. And so when the boys came out to play, Georgie Porgy ran away because he had to like go hide

behind the king who was protecting him. I see. Because the boys were like, we're here to play. Yeah. And like, he was kind of like, okay. But then he was like, no, no, no, no, no, nevermind actually. And then he's like, oh, in a bad way? Okay, I'm out of here.

Gotcha. Anyway, I thought it of here. Gotcha. Anyway, I thought it was interesting that I actually did grow appearing like the made up gay version. So, you know, there's actually a book that I recently gave a friend who has a daughter that just turned three

and Leona has this book and my mother-in-law Sherry got it for her and it is called, oh my God, I keep screwing up the name of it. Hold on, I promise this is important one moment. No worries. It's called What Are Little Girls Made Of? Oh, I feel like I've heard that.

It's by, let's see, Jean Willis. And so it's basically like a twist on a ton of classic nursery rhymes, but it's, like a twist on a ton of classic nursery rhymes. The subtitle of the book is Nursery Rhymes for Modern Times, I think, or for Feminist Times, sorry. So basically it's all flipped or with the Georgie Porgy one, it's like Georgie Porgy kissed a girl as she walked by. And then it turns into like, she turned around and said,

hey, stop. You know, like, you can't touch me without my consent or whatever, like, but they're very cleverly written and there's so many good ones in there. And I've been giving that to people as, actually just had the bookstore near me order a bunch more,

cause I think it's such a cool book. Oh, I love it. I'll take a copy. I would read that. That looks fun. Yeah, I will send you one. It's so, so cute. And like the ones, um, and they're just like very, and there's one where it's like, anytime there's a doctor, you know, it's like a female doctor, like Humpty Dumpty. Um, the doctor is a black woman now, not like some random dude, you know?

So it's very, it's very fun it's very fun and there's a feminist. One of the books that I, my mom always had on her, like in our like foyer by like the front door and everything, she always had a book on a table that was politically accurate bedtime stories. Oh yeah. You've talked about this. I grew up with that book and I have it now, but it's, it's kind of the same concept.

It's like, yeah, but it's very fun. Anyway, no, I'll totally take a copy of that. That's yes, I will send you one. It's very, it's very cute. Next up we have old King Cole. Okay. I do know this one vaguely. Okay. Old King Cole was a merry old soul and a merry old soul was he. He called for his pipe and he called for his bowl and he called for his fiddler's three. Every fiddler he had a fiddle and a very fine fiddle had he. Tweedle dee tweedle dee went the fiddlers.

Oh there's none so rare as we can compare with King Cole and his fiddler's three. So just like look at King Cole and his three little musicians. They're having a good time. Oh, okay, so this one's not a fucked up one? Not, well it is fucked up but in a fun fact way. So they think stories suggest King Cole is actually old Thomas Cole, who was a wealthy English merchant,

or better known as Thomas of Reading. And this is, I think this is like a different folk tale that people knew about. And then this song came from that folk tale. So it's not, I don't think a real person. If it is, it's fucking fascinating and they should have done documentary on him. Because Thomas of Reading, the character in this folk tale, he was from the 16th century and during his travels, he would often stop at a pub called the Ostrich. And the Ostrich, the landlords there happen to be serial killers. What? And they would rig a trap door to drop guests into a vat of boiling water. And the thing about Thomas of Reading is that he happened to stay at the ostrich five different

times and each time without even knowing what was going on, narrowly escaped death. So he's just like bumbling around and like bumbling around like la dee da and like pianos and anvils are falling behind him and he's not. Yes. around and like, bumbling around. Like la dee da and like pianos and anvils are falling behind him and he's not. Yes, yes. Okay, gotcha. Exactly and the landlords are like, God damn it, like we know he's rich, we need him.

We need to steal his money of all people. And they just can't. It took so long to boil all this water. Imagine how long it would take to a cauldron fit for a human being. That's insane. Anyway, so he just keeps narrowly avoiding it, but apparently he's like just very happy-go-lucky bumbling around

So maybe they think like oh how merry was he or what a merry old soul. Yeah, I would be merry too. Um, this this origin is Often theorized but unlikely another origin Guess is that old King Cole is actually a combination of two guess is that old King Cole is actually a combination of two rulers at different times named Cole. One was an English king named Cole the Old, yikes, and a Celtic ruler named Cole the Magnificent who got such a better deal in the name. But both of them happen to have music-loving daughters who inspired the line that

Cole was always calling for his fiddlers. Oh, that's nice. So those are the two theories. I personally like the serial killer one. Obviously, you would. And now you've mentioned this one quite a lot today. So let's talk about Humpty Dumpty, who has a very interesting background. Do you know about the theories?

I do. I do that he fell off his horse and they didn't want to and he was yeah yeah he was like he like tried to go fight and fell off his horse and Humpty Dumpty is from 1797 and he is not a person or or he might be a person but that's some of the theories he's definitely not an egg which a lot of people think he is the actual one of the main thoughts is that he's actually a cannon, the name of a cannon. Oh, I didn't know that. Who was used to control, used to gain control during the English Civil War.

And during part of the battle, the cannon was sitting on a church tower until cannonballs hit the cannon, like opposing cannonballs hit that cannon and the cannon named Humpty Dumpty fell off the tower and shattered. And although retrieved, the cannon could not be repaired because it was so heavy. Oh, I've never heard that theory. Okay. Others say that Humpty Dumpty was a person and he was just a town drunk who fell off a wall and hit his head because in the 18th century Humpty Dumpty was a word for a drink, which sounds very similar to the drink I mentioned last time, but a Humpty Dumpty was boiled ale and brandy

mixed together. Oh, I thought you were going to say with egg whites and I was like the egg. Oh, you know that that's a double on tongue. You know what I'm saying? It sure is. But if you boil brandy and ale, apparently you're having an 18th century Humpty Dumpty. And so that would that alcohol, if people drank it, they also became Humpty Dumpty's in their own way.

Gotcha. Others say it, like you said, is King Richard III. Because for a few reasons. One because apparently he had really bad scoliosis and he had a hump. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yikes. Yikes. I don't even know if that's true. That's just the story that people go off of, that he had scoliosis, so maybe that was like a really fucked up nickname that they gave him. Also, like you said, one time in battle, Richard fell off of his horse and he was very quickly sliced up by his enemy's

swords and he couldn't get up because he was so sliced into pieces. And so he was so sliced. Yeah, I wish that meant drunk, but it means literally sliced. He was so sliced. I've also his own, just like in the rhyme, his men could not put them back together again. Yuck. Yikes. And then fun fact, this is where I tell you that people get the egg thought from Humpty Dumpty because Lewis Carroll's

Looking Through the Looking Glass 1871 has Humpty Dumpty as an egg. And it's just through the looking glass, right? What did I say? Looking through the looking glass. Oh, I'm so stupid. Sorry. Yeah, through the looking glass. No, I'm so stupid. Sorry. Yeah through the no, you're not stupid I just I just was like doing through the looking that would be Unnecessary that seems like the title of somebody's dissertation. Yeah, it's like play on words looking through the looking glass So there's that that's Humpty Dumpty I promise I'm almost done I know that I'm doing I'm in it Well, here's what I've never heard of before. It's called Oranges and Lemons. I love it already.

I like a citrus. I like oranges, you like lemons. Okay, I was like, are you sure? But apparently there's this song called Oranges and Lemons say the bells, Oranges and Lemons say the bells of St. Clemens. You owe me five farthings say the bells of St. Martin's. When will you pay me say the bells of old Bailey. When I grow rich say the bells of Shoreditch. When will that

be say the bells of Stepney. I do not know say the great bell of Bow, or says the great bell of Bow. Here comes a candle to light you to bed, and here comes a chopper to chop off your head. Whoa. Chip, chop, chip, chop, the last one is dead. Okay, well, it was fun for a minute. It's like, oh, I'm really enjoying all the rhyming. I was like, I feel like I kind of get it.

Like there's a, you know, they're probably just referencing, what are they referencing? Different areas and saying like, London churches impoverished this one is. Yeah, okay. So yeah, you're pretty much on it was the each phrase was being said by a different London church. And so the thought is that it's this man who's on route passing by each of the

London churches on his way to his execution. And then he gets to the last one and here comes the chopper to chop off your head. Boy oh boy. We've also got a classic from 1744, we know it well, London Bridge. Aha. And some think that it refers to the London Bridge's poor conditions after the Great Fire of London. Others say that it was actually inspired by a real life Viking attack in 1014.

Oh, jeez. Where the London Bridge, I guess, fell or was trying to be pulled down. And there's kind of speculation about whether or not it's a Viking attack. The only real evidence we have is a very loosely translated poem. And the poem is from 1230, wow. Sure.

But also if it's from 1230 and the song doesn't come out for like another 500 years and it was loosely translated, they don't really think it was probably. It was like a thin, yeah, yeah. And another one that people think that this has to do with London Bridge is falling down, falling down. They think that this might have to do with the practice at the time of emirament, which was-

Oh, I've heard of this. ... a medieval punishment, but also a sacrifice, a human sacrifice, where victims were bricked into the foundations of buildings to bless the building and ensure that it would never collapse. Which, I don't know how that works. It can collapse on a person for sure. I think it, yeah, wasn't it like once it's at the, like as a, like it's open, it's built, now we have to encase someone in it.

Yeah, people were like locked in. Which is why the second part of the rhyme is take the key and lock her up, lock her up. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yikes. So maybe that was the fair lady they're talking about as she got locked up. Anyway, there's no evidence of this actually happening at London Bridge to be clear, but that is where they think the history is either a Viking attacked, a Viking attack, disrepair from a fire or ammurement. Yuck. All bad. All bad. Then there's, uh,

Then there's Rockabye Baby. Uh oh. 1765. Last night. No, this one is not bad. This one's just drama. In 1765, Rockabye Baby comes out. Smash hit, I'm sure. Smash hit.

Featuring Cardi B, you know it was going to be a banger. Featuring, who was it, the Whomping Willow? Who was it earlier? Oh, the Mulberry Bush. The Mulberry Bush. I was like, what? Featuring the who was it, the Whomping Willow? Who was it earlier? Oh, the Mulberry Bush, the Mulberry Bush. I was like, what? Oh, the Mulberry, featuring the Mulberry Bush. Some sort of tree.

By the way, RIP Mulberry Bush, you were not appreciated in your time. You never got, I love that you told me that it was up for tree of the year, but then it obviously didn't win, which is devastating to hear before it died. I didn't say it in those words, but you did catch on to what I was saying. It just took me a while it took me like a half hour to be like well that's

pretty sad. Not appreciated in your own time is exactly how I would take it. I mean there is a several hundred year long still standing strong rhyme about it. Fair point. I mean if you know how they say like plants can hear and shit? Imagine that mulberry bush going fucking nuts from having to hear its own goddamn song sang to it every day. All day long. Oh my God. By the way, its ego was out of control.

I'm kind of glad it didn't win the award. I mean, honestly, when it- It needed to be humbled. No wonder it just went away in 2017 after it didn't win 2016 tree of the year. Oh, so embarrassed probably. So embarrassed, I'm done. Or how many years did the Tree Award even exist and how long did it take for it to even be on the roster?

That had to be mortifying. Who the fuck won the Tree of 2016 because did they have a song written about them? Was it the Giving Tree? Was it the Whomping Willow? What could possibly hit them? Why do we know so many famous greeneries? So...

Oh, I found it. It's the oldest tree of Bataschek in Hungary. Boo! Big whoop, boo! Boo! Blame. Oh, they pour wine on it every year. Okay, I'm back in.

Oh, can you lie under the tree and accidentally catch the wine? I'd be like, oops. Just reading. Okay, rockabye baby. So drama, apparently King James II, he was having a hard time producing an heir. And he snuck, this is the rumor is that he snuck another man's baby into the castle's birthing chamber to guarantee that the throne would stay under Roman Catholic control. So they tricked everyone that a baby was born

by him. He just like took someone's baby and was like, it's mine. I assume they're I mean, if we're getting really into it, I bet there was a contract or something. I don't know. But also, does that mean like the rest of the British line is not like authentically interesting? You know what I mean? Interesting. Fun fact, more drama that is still relevant today, folks. Anyway, so this is another one of those reaches, but every source says that this is what it's about.

But rock-a-bye baby, when the, how does it go, rock-a-bye baby on the treetop, when the wind blows the cradle will rock. When the wind blows the cradle will rock When the bow breaks The cradle will fall and down will come baby cradle and all Yeah, okay, so the wind blowing Apparently is symbolic of the Protestant forces blowing through to demand a change and out of Catholic control Okay and

when What else? Oh, the cradle apparently symbolizes the royal house which later had a big fall. Sure, they're on the treetop because they're like the big man in charge. The castle, if you will. The castle. They're high up there. But so the cradle did fall and then down came baby cradle and all, which I guess means the king and his people. Um, the earliest printed version of this song, by the way, did have a warning at the end that says, this may serve as a warning to the proud and ambitious who climb so high that they generally fall. Whoa. Whoa!

Which makes me think that this was not meant for children to begin with, but if it was, we all know that the children would sing the fun song part and then you with your blacked out eyes would walk up and just read the footnote. I'd be like, do you know what this is really about? This is awarding to the proud and ambitious. Read the end of the pamphlet. Okay, my favorite one is maybe one of my favorite. This is my favorite one, Jack and Jill.

We love them. 1765. Some say that Jack and Jill were not brother and sister doing chores because they were, Jack and Jill went up the hill to fetch a pail of water. Apparently they might've actually been a secretive young couple who would sneak up to a hill together, say they were fetching a pail of water and then take 30 minutes, you know what I'm saying?

We're just getting a pail of water. He fell down, it was a whole thing, don't even worry about it. Drama! But apparently, whatever they were doing up on that hill led to a pregnancy. And the theory goes though that the child ended up dying or the girl died from childbirth

after giving birth to the baby. And this is like a local, a local lore. I think it's in Somerset in this area where Jack and Jill is supposedly said to have happened. And when Jill died from childbirth, the town took care of the baby. Where was Jack? The town took care of the baby.

I thought he fell down and broke his crown. Yeah, but I always thought a crown is like the one in your tooth, not like your whole head. Oh, I thought they meant his head. I always thought they meant his tooth. Hmm. Anyway. They didn't have crown.

They didn't have dentistry back then. You're right. You're right. It was probably his head for sure. But so anyway, the baby is alone in the town. The town takes care of the baby. And they just refer to it as Jill's son. And through the power of telephone over the years,

apparently a very common last name in that area is Gilson and they think it came from the town taking care of Gil's son. Gil's son! So if your last name is Gilson in that area they like to claim that they are of Jack and Jill fame. That is pretty crazy. Another version of Jack and Jill is that it was actually about Louis XVI and his wife, Marie Antoinette. But that doesn't make sense because the references don't make sense.

And also Jack and Jill was written 30 years before them. Next. OK. Next. This is what I think will be your favorite of the day is that Charles the first King Charles the first to try to increase taxes on alcohol. But how do I say this? They usually measured alcohol in units at the time, known as jacks or jills. Did you know? No, apparently, I think it might have been Jax and Gills, because it's a G, but I don't know if it's a hard G or a soft G. Jax and Gills? Jax and Gills? And so when he tried

to increase the taxes on Jax and Gills of alcohol, that failed, so he broke his crown or he lost the trust of the people. He broke his king crown instead of his head crown. Uh-huh. And to recover, he tried to reduce the price of Jax and Jills. But... So Jill went tumbling after. Mm-hmm. Wow.

And also, I guess he tried to reduce the price of Jax, and then he tried to do it twice as intensely to Jill's. So that's why Jill would come tumbling after Jack because she had a bigger price decrease. Whoa, that is bananas. Okay. Good time, right? I had no idea. Good time.

Okay, we have, I have two more left for you. OK. If you're still cool with that. I know I've been talking for like over an hour now. Come on. OK. Come on. What do you think we do here?

I know. This is a lot. Usually I would have picked like the top five or whatever. But I just I kept finding new ones. And I was like, ah, holy shit. OK. So you're the one who has an appointment to get to. So it's all you, baby.

You do you. I'll just, I'm here for the ride. Well is there one that I haven't covered yet that you're expecting? You know, every time you say one I'm like, oh duh, but I, oh I know, Ring Around the Rosie. Bingo! So, 1881 this comes out, and they say it, I mean we all have heard the rumors that it just might be about the 1665 great bubonic plague of London.

And the rosy in Ring Around the Rosy would be the rash that was, because it makes a rosy colored rash when you have the plague. And apparently these rosies did not smell very good because we've talked about this in the past, but with bubonic plague, bubo's would come out on your body, which were these big lumps that would kind of explode and they did not smell very good.

So when these rosies would come up with this rose colored rash and then they would pop and it smelledelt very bad. People would try to conceal the stench with a pocket full of posies. Wow, okay. And one of the signs was of, one of the signs you were sick, trust me, you fucking knew if you had the plague, but in case you didn't know, you sneezed a lot too.

And so one of the phrases in the song is sometimes ashes, ashes, we all fall down. It was originally probably at you, at you, we all fall down. No way. Like sneezing, and then fall down, AKA you drop dead. But it has over time been changed into ashes, ashes,

which is only worse, because now it's like, oh, you've been cremated because you all fell down. I was gonna say, I think it, yeah, it still has the same vibe, unfortunately. Another source said that it could have been saying rashes rashes. Oh. Interesting. Um, anyway, we all get the gist. We've heard that one a million times, but the song wasn't actually documented until

hundreds of years after the plague and the earlier versions are said to have not had these references. So we don't know if it only maybe changed with the rumor that it had something to do with the plague. And like it ends up like people kind of like fit it. Right, right, right. But there's also one historian who says that it might have been about the Protestants religious ban on dancing because people started having this workaround when it came to not having to dance they would say oh we're not going dancing we're just going to have a play party where we do ring games and a ring game around the

rosy is when you would just all stand in a ring and spin in a circle which was different from story time all day. It's just, we're just spinning, we're not dancing, we're just spinning in a ring. Versus like, you know, normal dancing. Also, music at the time, which they were trying to keep you from dancing from, had like musical instruments, and if Ring Around the Rosie or Ring Games

were you just singing, then there was no instrument. So technically it wasn't dancing. Technically, you know I love semantics. I do. If we ever have to break a rule, I will be coming to you about how we will be defining the whole thing. You would have made a lovely lawyer.

Thank you. Oh, that's nice, except that I'm way too impatient. I don't like hard work. And you cry a lot. And I cry. I'm so sensitive. Yeah. But thank you. That's a very kind thing to say. Anyway, so the most common theory is that it's the plague version.

And then another very cool one that I, cool to me and you, Mary Mary Quite Contrary. Do you know this one? How Does Your Garden Grow? Yes. Do you know this one? How Does Your Garden Grow? Yes. Do you know who it's about? Uh-uh. Girl Bloody Mary. Ah!

Who we have covered, by the way, in a past episode, so please go check out that episode. But she was known for torturing and murdering Protestants. And Mary Mary Quite Contrary, How Does Your Garden Grow? She's pretty contrary, that's the gentle way to put it. Contrary is probably the best word Protestants. And Mary Mary quite contrary. How does your garden grow with silver? She's pretty contrary. That's the gentle way to put it. Contrary is probably the best word they could slip into a rhyme without being executed.

With exactly. Yeah. It's like the most diplomatic way you could say it. Yes. Diplomatic. Yes. Because I'm imagining a lot of these were, I mean, how many of these have I gone over where it's like, oh, during Protestant England. Some sort of upheaval or, or yeah, exactly. This just feels like a bunch of Catholics got together and wanted to be petty. And they were like, how can we write vague rhymes about the system? I mean, as a former Catholic myself, I'd be honest, very good at being petty. That is one of the strengths I believe. No wonder they were like making their kids sing it too, because they're like, we have to push the narrative. Like, let's keep Catholicism alive wherever we can. Yeah. They the rhyme goes, Mary, Mary, quite contrary, how does your garden grow with silver bells

and cockle shells and pretty maids all in a row? And it said that these silver bells were thumbscrews she used to torture people, and the cockle shells were torture devices for male genitalia. Cockle shells. Mm-hmm. No.

And after the king's death, so this is how it all kind of came to be, very, very quick TLDR. After the king's death, the throne went to Mary, who promptly tried to make England Catholic again. So she was very contrary in the fact that England was happily Protestant at the time. And she went, we're going to fix that. So okay, when they say how does your garden grow, apparently garden first of all rhymes with garden gardener gardeniae or sounds like Gardner, which was the name of

Mary's only supporter. Also, it could be a dig at her own infertility, or garden could be replaced with graveyard in reference to all of her victims. Right, like it's growing, you're adding to your garden, quote unquote, with all your torture devices. Oh, God. And then the last one I'll leave you on, I've got one and then a fun fact. So here's, I'll leave you on three blind mice. Oh, okay. From 1805, although the original version is apparently from 1609, 200 years before that.

Whoa. And it's another ode to Bloody Mary. Really? Because she gets two fucking nursery rhymes. That's how you know you made it. Fuck. Yeah. That's how you know you've murdered enough people.

How are trees getting awards, killers are getting are getting rhymes like what do I gotta do? I'll make you I already made you a limerick. I don't know whatever happened to it, but I think I made you a limerick I think you did we'll have to replay that episode at some point figure out where it went But there once was a they be named M Who whose pronouns were they and them. No, shut up. That doesn't work. There once was a they being named M, who drank milkshakes, although it caused phlegm.

One day they announced, hold on, one day they did say, till the end of the day, their pronouns would be they and them. Okay, let me say it again. Them and they. There once was a, them and they, wait, there once was a, there once was a baby named M,

who drank milkshakes, although it caused phlegm. Then one of these day, wait, what did I say? And then I, and then M did say, say on one of these day, wait, what did I say? And then M did say. Say on one of those days that their pronouns would be they and them, because it has to rhyme with M and Flem. What was the announced one? One day that they announced.

One day they announced that they would like to pounce on puppies that would cuddle with them. that they would like to pounce on puppies that would cuddle with them. One day they announced that they changed their pronouns to newly be they and be them. Okay, that's what's up. Listen, somebody write that down. Eva? And that, by the way, is from she for she her. So you know all about those. And I'm being, That's me being contrary today. The princess of pronouns before anyone decides to really rip you apart.

OK. Ah, help. You're only just sitting here writing limericks about them. There once was a girl named Christine. She was canceled. For being so mean. For being so mean. The end.

OK. Canceled. She's canceled mean, the end. OK. That's canceled. She's canceled. There's no second verse. It's like you know, because on paper, you would have written more, but it just is strikethroughed. That's right. Yeah.

So I don't even, I'm not even going to say it. It's strikethroughed. Doesn't count. Well, back to one of our serial killers, she gets two whole nursery rhymes. She gets Merry Merry Quite Contrary, and she gets Three Blind Mice. because in this ode to Bloody Mary, the trio, or the Three Blind Mice, is a group of Protestant bishops who famously tries to overthrow her but were burned

at the stake. Oh. And these three bishops were Hugh Latimer, Nicholas Radley, and the Archbishop of Canterbury, Thomas Cranmer. And some say that the mice's blindness refers to them being blinded by their religious beliefs. And Mary is the farmer's wife in the poem. So the lyrics go, three blind mice, three blind mice, see how they run, see how they run. They all ran after the farmer's wife who cut off their tails

with a carving knife. Did you ever see such a sight in your life as three blind mice? Okay. Yeah, I can see why that would be a direct allegory for. Yeah. It's almost like she got, she found out through like the court, the town jester, like, Miss Mary, please, please God don't kill me, but I have to tell you, someone wrote a rhyme about you and it's a little inflammatory. And- Yeah, it's not really favorable.

It's not looking good, please don't shoot the messenger, I'm just telling you what's going on. And then she went, I'll write one too. And then she went, have you ever seen such a sight? A stream by mice as I'm carving your fucking tails off? You know, she like had to come back. She's like, actually I really like this version. She's like, I actually kind of like this Attention like if this is the game we're gonna play which like I don't I don't condone what she did

But that's some icon shit if she secretly would like ghost wrote her own Like rebuttal like here's verse 2 Yeah, I like I like I'd eat that shit up if it were on social media today. Yeah, this is like a back and forth. And now I will end on this final fun fact for you about the Muffin Man. The Muffin Man? No! The Muffin Man.

Oh! Do you know him? He is on Drury Lane, but some older versions say he was on Crumpet Lane. So maybe he's changed addresses. All right. I guess he's moved. In 1820, this title comes out, and some say that the Muffin Man was actually inspired by Frederick Thomas Linwood, who was a 16th century muffin seller and murderer. Yeah, I know this one, I think about the kids, right?

He would allegedly tie a muffin to a string, which by the way, it's not American muffins, they're English muffins. Just so we're clear. I'm sorry, I don't know why that's so funny to me. But I had an image of the string around a muffin. And then you said that and I went, oh, click and then changed into an English muffin. That's why I changed it. Thank you. I was like, it's no lemon poppy seed, my friend. It's that stuff you put a butter on.

It's a mix and crannies situation. It's too crumbly. It's a little crumbly. But he would allegedly tie an English muffin to a string and then he would lure people close enough to beat them to death. And it was seven other bakers, which I love that they were like probably just as competition and 15 kids. But here's the thing that story came from a parody site. Very unlikely to be real, even I think the man himself. Wait, a parody website? A parody website, it's like the onion.

So- Oh, okay, so this isn't like an old standing theory, this is just like a recent theory. This only came out recently through like TikTok and social media. I see, I see. More likely than anything, The Muffin Man is actually just a poem

about 19th century food vendors, where a lot of people were working rough hours, and they would go to literal English muffin salesmen on the street. But anyway, it's just a fun fact to end on that the Muffin Man could have been a serial killer. Wow. I love that someone was like, I know, I'll make a website and spread this malicious rumor about somebody who may or may not have existed malicious or delicious

Honestly, you tell me Porkano lostos And that is the dark side to many nursery rhymes. I mean That was beautifully done. Thank you. I really did talk for a full over an hour about that but I it was worth it. Well you talked, you sang, we laughed, we cried. I feel like this was quite a an informative episode so thank you for that. Thank you. Thank you. I have a story for you. This is a Polish story and it is not old. I mean it's old, I guess it's from 2000, but it's not as classic as your 11th century poems or whatever you're

talking about. Nothing is. This is a story of Christian Bala and my cousins are Polish, but I do not speak Polish, so I am apologizing now if I mispronounce certain words, because when my cousins speak Polish, I stare at them like, how do you know German, English, Austrian dialect? It's amazing. And Polish. I don't know how you'd, and French. And I'm like, OK, forget it.

So I'm already embarrassed about my pronunciation. I apologize, but I really did try, and I did watch some videos. So on a brisk morning in December 2000, three friends were out fishing together at the Oder River in Southwest Poland. And this part of the river was actually very remote and very inaccessible.

You could only get there by foot after you parked your car like a ways away and you had to kind of meander through some thicket to get to the actual fishing spot. And not many people made this trek, especially in December. So it was kind of a very secluded and peaceful spot for these three fishermen. The three men, this already is sounding like a nursery rhyme,

three men go to the river to fish. The word thicket, immediately I thought we were in a poem. Why did I say thicket? Probably because you were telling nursery rhymes and I was thinking like a tisket, a tasket, I don't know. The sick part is like, I know you're about to tell me an actual crime and yet I'm trying to like, everything keeps rhyming in my head.

Like I heard crime and then I went rhyme. And then I'm like. We like, we want it to be just a classic nursery rhyme based on no real story, but unfortunately this is factually proven, which is unfortunate. But yeah, so it had its moment where it could have turned fun and then it doesn't. A fisherman and a thicket.

And I'm like, oh, let's. The three fishermen and a thicket. How did they get there? Ha ha ha, peep show. They were there together, cause they're gay. Ha ha ha. Oh, I wish. I really wish that were the story.

Okay, so these three men were there to fish in the solitude and enjoy some peace. And that's of course, when they noticed something floating downstream toward them. So at first it looks like a log. It gets closer and they notice that there's hair attached to it and it's bobbing above the water. Yikes. So one of the fishermen takes his fishing rod and kind of like prods at the item in the water and they find out that this log is not a log at all it's human remains. So of course they immediately contact police and as soon as police get there and take the body out of the water they realize this was

not a natural drowning. To start with the man was only wearing a sweatshirt and underpants and it didn't yeah and it didn't seem likely that anyone out for a hike in December in a secluded wooded area would be just in their underwear. So it's not like this guy probably just fell in and drowned. But more notably and more obvious that this was a crime is that he was bound by rope. And this is pretty upsetting. The rope had been wrapped around his neck and hands so that almost like a hog tie. And it was the type of knot where if you struggle, it tightens around your neck.

Oh. And my first thought too was like, oh, sweatshirt and underwear. I was like, that's what I wear in my own home. So now I'm thinking like someone was in his house when he thought he was like going to go to bed or he was in bed. Yeah. Yeah. You're, you're onto it.

So he had been wrapped around with this rope and this rope had been, like I said, specifically tied so that even if he moved his arms at all or struggled at all, the rope would tighten like a noose around his neck. So he's like essentially killing himself. Yes, yes, yes. And he would have had to stay completely still to avoid strangling himself to death. And so investigators immediately consult their missing persons database to narrow down the search to adult men who had been reported missing and before long

They did match the identity to this 35 year old man named Darius Janos Janos you Janos Chesky Janos Chesky Janos Chesky Sorry to my cousins Darius Darius Janos Fuck Darius Janos Chesski. I don't know. I'm going to try that. That sounds right. This man was a local man from Wrocław, Poland, which was about 60 miles from this spot at the river.

And it's pretty tragic. They discovered who it was, and his wife was too distraught to identify his remains so his own mother had to come and she was able to confirm his identity by recognizing a birthmark on his chest. So this guy, Darius, had been missing for a while. He was last seen on November 13th, which was nearly a month earlier, and that is when his wife had reported him missing. The odds were already stacked against investigators because he had been in the river for so long that finding any useful evidence here was unlikely. There was no fingerprints because any DNA or fingerprints had been washed away at this point, and he had decomposed pretty far along. So a forensics team hiked around the woods, they dove into the river, they scoured the

area, but they found absolutely nothing. And of course, Darius could not have put himself in the river this way, so they were just at a loss how this had happened. They did an autopsy, and an autopsy revealed that there was virtually nothing in his stomach or intestines. And basically that means whoever had done this to him had most likely starved him for several days before his death. Yeah. They were thinking probably around three days, if not more. This is so interesting that it's a man. I know I feel like a lot of times in these kind of brutal like sadistic

cases you're right the victims are often women. Or like it's at least a man and a woman like he was like the boyfriend of someone that was right the you know the victim that maybe was being prioritized in the torture and stuff like that. And so, yeah, this makes me feel like there has to be a girlfriend somewhere. And maybe not, but I feel like with enough of these stories, I'm stereotyping, which I shouldn't, but it feels like there's another person missing somewhere. You're sensing a pattern. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you're probably onto something, and we will definitely get there.

But before that, I'll tell you probably one of the saddest parts, which is that the volume of water that they found in his lungs indicated that he was still alive when he was tossed into the river. And then he's told not to struggle, or else he'll choke himself. Yeah. So he basically ends up in the river with a hogtide like that to struggle or else he'll choke himself. Yeah, so he basically

ends up in the river with a hogtied like that so that any struggling, which you would obviously do innately, would strangle you at the same time as you're literally drowning. So very fucked up, very dark, just sadistic, really beyond sadistic. So his cause of death actually wasn't asphyxiation or strangulation, but drowning. And people were just so taken aback by the cruelty of this, just how sadistic it really was. And the fact that Darius himself was so well loved by family and friends, his wife reported

they were in a happy marriage and planning to adopt a child soon. So they were growing their family. He was a successful business owner. He had many healthy and happy friendships and seemed pretty popular. They couldn't really find anyone who had any negative things to say about him. There was no evidence, no forensic evidence pointing to suspects, but there was also no motive among his social circle. So they just couldn't understand who not only would want him dead, but would want him to

die in such a sadistic, brutal way. So one criminal psychologist said that the murder must have involved a great deal of anger. And I think you probably picked up on that as well with the fact that this was such a thought out premeditated situation. It seemed very personal like somebody planned this very carefully and police considered at first that it could have been a gang execution like maybe Darius was involved in some sort of organized criminal activity and it went south but the more they dug the more that kind of just started to feel

unrealistic and like probably isn't what really happened. He had no prior criminal history. They couldn't even find a link between him and any sort of organized crime group. His record, his life appeared virtually flawless and that's it. They felt like they had hit a dead end and so the case just began to grow cold. The media at this point, when the case was kind of floundering, described the murder as quote the perfect crime and investigators were feeling very pressured by the public to make some sort of break, to make any sort of inroad and find any sort of clue they possibly

could. So what they did, because the case was getting cold, is they turned to Poland's most popular crime show whose host was Michael Fajbowicz. Christine, I'm so sorry. Michal Fajbowicz. I gotta tell ya, I don't know. I feel like there's a lot of languages that we hear more often that we are kind of able to fake mimic and hope that we're doing it right.

Polish is out of control. That's like, I just never hear that one. I know. And I feel like I should know it better. But I know, let's call him Michal. That's close enough, right? Okay, so media exposure had helped solve Polish criminal cases before, so investigators were like,

hey, maybe if he covers this on his crime show, it'll get us some leads, right? It's kind of like America's Most Wanted. I was going to say, is there a name for it or? Don't say it, never mind. Don't say it. It's probably Polish. It's called, no. Poland's most wanted.

Poland's most wanted. That's good. It's called, no. Polin's post-mode. Polin's post-mode. That's good. So they thought, well, maybe we'll get some leads this way. And maybe somebody's memory would be jogged. Maybe they saw something the night that he disappeared and they'll reach out and call in. Perhaps there were witnesses out there they didn't know that had seen something significant and it, and would, you know, a bell would ring when they saw this. So they put this episode out and not only the host, but investigators were genuinely shocked

when they got nothing. Not a single, like there were a couple tips that came in, but not a single one was useful. Every single one was a dead end. And they thought, you know what, forget it, we're gonna abandon this case. This they thought, you know what, forget it, we're going to abandon this case. This was around mid summer, 2001. So only like six, seven months later, they were like, you know what, this is going nowhere. So for two years, Darius's

loved ones were left to wonder what happened and basically told, we're told, we'll probably never find out. So 2003 comes around. Sorry, my nose. Oh my god. Sorry, Jack. It's the full body contorting. It's so gross. I'm so glad this microphone has a mute button.

It's like the extras, because you do this, and then you do this, you go. It's because I don't want you to see me, but it probably looks like I'm having a fit. I'm sorry, everyone. I have really bad allergies now that it's springtime. And I think that I'm trying to spare everyone from my nose blowing, but poor Em has to like,

I mute my microphone, but then my body just somehow reenacts everything. If you just sat still, I wouldn't care as much, but because of the amount you're moving, I kind of want to hear what's going on. I know it's like a sick fascination, like I can't look away, what is going on? It's like a train wreck, yeah.

It is a train wreck, yeah, it is a train wreck. So I apologize. If there are kind of breaks like that, folks, it's probably because I'm blowing my nose and I do apologize. I'm just trying not to sound too stuffy. Anyway, okay. So they, two years go by, right? So in 2003, police begin a routine review of open and cold cases. Basically they do this in a lot of places around the world. Just kind of open up some old cases, get some fresh eyes, see if anyone can catch anything. That's smart.

Yeah, I think so. It's like doing a literal puzzle and having people come and check the pieces and see if they can spot anything else. It's like stepping away and then having somebody else come in and take a look. Exactly, it's fresh eyes. And thankfully, this actually worked. So the new detective who came in and took a look at these details, he reviewed all the documents and noticed something that he found a bit strange.

What he found out is that Darius had taken several calls on a mobile phone, on a cell phone, the day he disappeared. The caller had originally contacted his office where his mother actually worked as a receptionist. And his mother said that when this caller had called the office, he seemed angry and impatient. He demanded to talk to Darius himself. So she gave him Darius' cell phone number and then presumably Darius received several calls from this phone number.

So police determined that the calls had come from a phone booth near Darious' workplace, near his business. Today, a cell phone might be like an obvious part of a case, but back then, cell phones were not as common in 2000. And the fact that this had kind of been glossed over was- A sign of the times also.

A sign of the times. Yeah, it's like, oh, well, that doesn't seem relevant. But nowadays, of course, if a cell phone is involved, it's like, oh, we have to track every call and see who texted whom and what have you. So of course, now that there is this cell phone involved, the detective is like, well, let's see if we can figure out anything specific about it. And it had never been accounted for during the investigation. And of course,

they thought, well, maybe, I mean, odds are it ended up at the bottom of the river. But when divers had kind of scoured the river, they hadn't found it. So they thought, well, there's still a chance that this cell phone is out there somewhere. So anything might have happened to it at this point, but especially because it's been like three years, right? But its absence was the first clue for the case in years because they knew he had a cell phone, but they had never found it

and it had never been accounted for. So there's like a little gap they wanted to fill in. So this investigator who noticed it decided to pursue it. He contacted Darius's wife who incredibly still had the printed receipt for the phone's original purpose. Oh my God. Yeah. And you know how that's on not throwing anything away.

That's me. You know what? That's right. That's how Christine's gonna save the world. Not me. That's how I operate. I throw things away the second I don't see a use to them at all. Couldn't be him. I'm like, well, what if someone gets murdered and I need this?. That's how I operate. I throw things away the second I don't see a use to them at all.

Couldn't be him. I'm like, well, what if someone gets murdered? And I need this. That's how my brain works, which is the same. And sadly, part of me is like, that's a great point. That's a really good point. Sickeningly, unfortunately, sometimes the case, like right now, the receipt showed the phone's IMEI number,

which if anybody knows, that's basically just a tracking number for the specific phone. And so it would show where it would be able to track the phone if it were still in use. So investigators obviously assumed that whoever had killed Darius would have destroyed the phone long ago. So when they looked up this IMEI number, they were shocked to see that the phone was still in use. Oh shit. Yeah, I would have thought for that the phone was still in use. Oh shit. Yeah, I would have thought for sure. I was like, why even look, that thing's gone.

Why would you even bother? Exactly. However, but then again, if you think about it, 2000, people didn't really know that a phone, you know what I mean? Like probably whoever did it didn't know like necessarily that this phone would be such a big clue for the police. Yeah, just felt like, oh, here's a trophy of my kill. Yes, it's just a piece of junk or whatever.

So actually, someone had used the day they looked it up, they found out someone had used it to make a call that day. So it was very much still in use. So they tracked down the phone's current owner and they learned that since Darius' death, you know, three-ish years earlier, it had actually been bought and sold several times. Ew, that's the same thought of like, could you wear a serial killer's shirt?

It's like, could you, to know that I've been texting, like my face has been pressed against the face of somebody else who... Yeah, who was so brutally murdered. It is a dark thought. This poor guy or person who has the phone now is like, what? I just bought it from somebody. They have no clue.

They rolled this person out as a suspect and they begin moving back to see who sold it to whom, to whom, to whom. One by one, the phone's previous owners were crossed off the list. And one of the detectives later said that it was their job to quote, become the devil's advocate and try to look for any element that would prove a suspect innocence. So every time they got to a new person who like had owned the phone at some point or had sold the phone, they had to basically rule them out as a suspect. They wanted to find a lead,

but they wanted to make sure that they were going, tracing it all the way back to the person who had taken the phone from Darius to begin with. So finally they did, they got to the end of the line. It turns out a businessman had bought the phone on an online auction only days after Darius was killed. So they were able to track all the way to the actual internet post.

That's crazy. This phone, isn't it? Where the phone had been sold only days after. And so they knew whoever had sold this phone only days later probably is the one who had something to do with it or at least had some connection. And the user who had sold the device was called

Chris B7. And Chris B7 had sold the phone for roughly 80 bucks. So basically to answer your question or not a question, but when you said like, oh, it's just a trophy or whatever, he basically was like, I could just get a couple bucks off this, right? Right. Yeah. Just like, oh, here's some junk I need to get rid of. Exactly. And it's worth something. I might as well get money for it. Mm-hmm.

So as far as they could tell, this seller, Chris B7, would have been the first person to own the phone after Darius' death, which is pretty telling. And when they looked into it, they found out that the account, Crispy7, belonged to 30-year-old Christian Bala. They soon discovered that Christian was an author who used a blog to promote his book. His book, Em. Oh boy. His book. You know when Oh boy, his book. You know when men think they're really, really deep?

Right, but this fucking guy, he had written a book, okay? It was a lurid first person novel told from the point of view of a man named Chris. Now this guy's name is Christian, K-R-Y-S-T-I-A-N, but the main character of the book is Chris, C-H-R-I-S. So he's basically using like the- He fooled us. Right, like the Americanized version of his own name

as the, which is also interestingly the name of the user, Chris B7 is spelled with a C-H as well. So he used the English version of his own name and the same name he used on the auction website. And the story followed Chris, this character, as he murdered a woman, which he described in this like lurid, like lustful sexual way. Like a passion kind of thing?

Yeah, well, just like he just wrote it in these really graphic details, like just very unpleasant and fucked up. So the book apparently straddled the line between murder and sex. And investigators said there was, quote, not a great deal of plot, which I love. However, one point that did stick out to them

was the fact that the narrator had sold a murder weapon on an online auction site. And they were like, well, that seems a little familiar. And a little on the nose. Did it say, like, really used in a murder? Like, what did the post say? Oh, the post just said, oh, the post was just selling a cell phone. I don't think there was any Oh, the post just said, oh, the post was just

selling a cell phone. I don't think there was any information on the post about where the cell phone. OK, didn't know if it was like he was really into giving people a story with this item. No, I think in the book, he sold, I think, the knife that was used in the murder on the internet. But in real life, it was the cell phone of the victim.

And so additionally, interestingly enough, the narrator also used rope to bind his victim before the killing. And the murder in the book was by no means like a one-to-one comparison. It wasn't exactly word-for-word what had happenedarius. And while, of course, it was a red flag that the first person to use and sell the phone after the killing also published a murder novel starring a protagonist with the same name, it wasn't evidence that he was a real-life murder.

It was just an odd, I guess it's evidence in the way of, it's evidence, but it's not like full or what's the word damning? It's not damning evidence. Yeah, sure. It's no smoking gun, so to speak So plenty of authors, you know write about things they would never do in real life, obviously so all you have to say is this is fiction and You know, there you have it But a criminal psychologist who was brought onto the case to analyze this character Chris in the book for similarities to Christian acknowledged that

there were quite a few similarities but again like if you're writing a book you write it based on your own point of view and it would make sense that the main character has a lot of similar traits. Still the investigators felt like this was something, this was a lead. They were compelled by this book and above all by the fact that Christian still seemed to be the first person to have the phone. So at the very least, they wanted to know how the fuck he got his hands on that phone. So the issue was they couldn't find him. Curiouser. Curiouser and curiouser. Christian had actually left Poland several years ago, only months after the killing. How convenient. And they absolutely did not have enough evidence to pursue him internationally, right? Like they didn't have the jurisdiction

to like track him down. And so instead they decided to just wait. They were like, you know what, we're going to wait and see if he comes back. And of course he did because they always come back. Christian's passport was flagged in 2005 when he arrived at Polish customs coming from outside the country. The ball's on this guy to like fly back into the country. You would think if you escaped the country in time

to not get caught, you have to imagine while I was gone, they came up with some leads and maybe I shouldn't. You'd like you'd think so. You'd think so. And I mean, yeah, OK, I was going to go on another rant about how sensational he thought he was. But well, I guess with the media saying, oh, this was the perfect crime, he probably was like, yeah, it was a perfect crime.

You know, probably got in his head. Oh, sure. And what's more is they had never talked to his family because they didn't want to tip him off. So they never told his family and friends, like, we're looking for him, right? Because they were like, well, then he might never come back. So they just laid low and they waited.

And so when he did come back into the country and his passport was flagged, police collected him right away and brought him in for questioning. The weirdest part is that right off the bat, he confessed to the murder. And then he panicked and he nearly fainted. And he said, I need medical attention. And he retracted his confession.

And they were like, wait, wait, okay. He retracted the confession. So now he like, wait, wait, okay. He retracted the confession. So now he's saying, no, no, no, I did not do that. I did not do anything. And so now the investigators, obviously the burden of proof falls on them. And this is a huge problem because they do not have anything to link Christian to Darius, but this cell phone,

and they had absolutely no motive that would have driven Christian to kill Darius so ruthlessly. So they held him for 48 hours, but then they were forced to release him because he had taken back his confession. Did he just try to say like it was like mental, he just had a mental breakdown or something?

I don't think he even, I mean, as far as I know, we don't know, except he just apparently blurted out and then said, oh, nevermind. What a strange occurrence. I would be like. What an odd thing to just blurt out by mistake. Yeah, yeah. But they couldn't do anything about it.

They're like, well, technically he's saying he didn't do it. So they kept, even though they had to release him, they didn't give up. They began questioning people in his life and they would often bring up his novel, which by the way was called, A Muck, A M O K. M A O K. A M A M O K, like to run a muck.

Oh, like the thing that he's doing right now. Correct. Okay. So people began, you nailed it. What are you a literary credit? I mean, I do. I did read a lot of poetry in my time and by in my time I meant by since this morning. So last night. Yeah. So also children's children's rhyming. But really is it children's after everything we just learned? Great point very mature content. Yeah so people began to believe that Christian was being this is

eye-roll worthy persecuted for his artistic expression and Okay, I know I don't have it. I sense it I know you're you started to roll your eyes and then you just closed them The part where you fall asleep It sounds like I could fall asleep right now and then wake up in them. I was like, is this the part where you fall asleep because you're just over it? It sounds like I could fall asleep right now and then wake up in a little bit and still be caught up. And it'll still be happening.

Yeah, probably. I'll still be hearing about this fucking book. This fucking book. So it apparently had a lot of anti-Catholic rhetoric, speaking of nursery rhymes. I know, wow. Which Christians supporters and friends thought, you know what, this is a Catholic country, Poland,

and so authorities are just offended that this is a Catholic, they're calling out Catholicism. And so he's just being persecuted. And that's a bunch of bullshit, but anyway, Christian loved this new theory and he began telling people that, oh, I'm the victim, they violently arrested me and they had attacked me, even though there's no proof of any of that.

A woman that he was seeing actually launched her own defense campaign on his behalf. And people joined forces to support him and be like, he wrote a piece of fiction and now he's being persecuted. They spun it as like that angle. I love, I mean, I hate, I hate, but I love when people try to claim being a victim, like as they're doing the things they're doing. Anyway.

Especially when you so blatantly have a real victim. Like couldn't have a more literal victim. Yeah. Literal victim, yeah. So letters start coming into the Polish justice ministry from around the world demanding that they look into this case, which was targeting a man for writing fiction.

And this, of course, unfortunately, this book started flying off the shelves and was an overnight bestseller. And I'm sure Christiane thought he was the next, the second coming, you know? So the public began to speak more and more out, speak out more and more, excuse me, against the case believing like the police were harassing an innocent man. And while police did not technically have the evidence to make an official arrest, they believed that they just had to find a motive

and they could break this case wide open. Wide open. Wide open. So the lead investigator believed in his gut that jealousy was the motive behind the killing. He had spent hours and hours reading and analyzing Christian's book to try and understand Christian's point of view on murder and how his mind worked, which is so fascinating to me.

So he took away from the book a theme of acute jealousy, and he thought to himself, I think whoever wrote this fucking book has a problem with jealousy. And he suspected that this killer would play a role in uncovering the motive in the real life killing of Darius. So he just needed to find out why Christian was so jealous and how Christian even knew Darius in the first place. Meanwhile Christian underwent psychiatric evaluations and was found to have very, this is in quotes, very specific sociopathic behavior.

Very specific, oh god. Very specific sociopathic behavior. All right. So they're like zeroed in on this guy. Apparently, going back through his history, this shouldn't be that surprising to us now, but he liked to think he was smarter than everyone else all through his life. As a child, for example. What?

I know, you're shocked. As a child, he was a star pupil. He was well-behaved. He didn't have any like behavioral issues. He initially went to college for philosophy and wanted to create a career in academia. He was very popular among his professors and peers. They thought he was studious, intelligent, funny,

and just someone fun to have around. However, he also had a reputation as a womanizer, but on that front, women loved him. He was able to pick up whoever he wanted and get rid of them just as easily. Apparently so. He often told, yeah, and he often told his friends, I will not live long, but I will live furiously.

With any other circumstance, I might find that charming, but not this one. So in 1995, Christian was 23, and he married his childhood sweetheart, Stanislava, who went by Stacia, and they had a son together. So he seemed to have it all. He had this career, he had a classic lifelong romance, he had a loving family, a son on the way, he was confident, intelligent, popular, he was attractive. But the people who knew him also noticed some cracks in

his veneer. He was enrolled in this PhD program at school, but because of his new and young family, he kind of had to move away from getting his PhD, even though that was his dream, because he had to support his family. So he expected Stacia to be a stay at home mother and housewife. So he thought, I have to support the family. I'm going to quit school and open a business. And he told people he could do anything he wanted. And he really believed that. He believed he had a superior intellect. But unfortunately for him, Christian had no sense for business.

He apparently never invested any of his profits back into the business. And so very quickly he had to file for bankruptcy. And so that was a big fail. But of course to him, that was not his failure. That was a failure on the part of course to him that was not his failure, that was a failure on the part of everybody else. Of course, he's the victim. You know that kind of guy? He is the victim, exactly.

He was also extremely confrontational, had a very short temper and he was a serial cheater. He had tons of affairs and then he would project them, which we see sometimes back onto Stacia and he would accuse her of being the unfaithful one. Of course. He was also a liar and he lied so often that sometimes he believed his own lies

and just kind of lived in this pathological fantasy land. He also made up stories about his life to seem more impressive and he would roll with them until he had almost convinced himself that these stories about himself were true. He followed his wife to a bar once and then when he arrived, he publicly accused her of cheating and then threatened to kill the men she was supposedly seeing behind his back. He just wanted a reason to be violent. That was it. I agree with you. Yeah. I agree with you 100%.

And eventually he was so fed up with this alleged cheating that she probably wasn't even doing, that he simply forced her to stay home at all times. He basically just trapped her at home. Wow. And when she couldn't stand it anymore, she divorced him. But Christian refused to just leave her alone and let her go.

He became obsessive. he stalked her, he did whatever he could to keep control over her. Yuck. And then one day she met a man named Darius Genachevsky. I fucking knew there was a girl involved. You did, you sure did. It's like there's no, this never happens to just a man, which like it does but not

We've done enough of these where I'm like There's got to be you know the dynamic. I know the common dynamic and yeah, I'm where the hell is the woman Here she is totally innocent, but somehow roped into all this nonsense Which is how it goes so of, she and Darius hit it off. But when Stacia learns that Darius is married, by the way, remember he's in a happy marriage and adopting a son soon, she's like, no, no, no. I'm calling this off before anything happens

because she knew all too well what it was like to be the wife of someone having an affair. And she said, I'm not gonna be involved in that. So soon afterward, Darius seemed to kind of mend his relationship with his wife, and he was no longer pursuing extramarital affairs. And Stacia was out of the picture. It was a very brief, just a brief,

they got to know each other, and then they parted ways. Fleeting. Yes. But Christian, the stalker, had already found out out about Darius and he could not let it go It seemed that investigators suspicions were correct. The motive was jealousy and when the case went to trial Finally, it became a media frenzy throughout Europe The the news outlets just loved the the hook of a murderer writing about Killing and then doing the killing.

I mean, it's an outlandish story. It's like, what do you call it? True the stranger than fiction. And like I said, this novel becomes an overnight bestseller. People are just fascinated by this. But the court decided during the trial that the book itself was not going to be admissible as evidence.

The prosecution agreed. They were like, you know what? This is just going to distract the jury from the case at hand. But Christian wanted to talk about it. He believed he was only on trial. Well, I don't know if he believed it, but he liked to say he was only on trial because he had written this book and that he was an artist being persecuted for writing fiction, you know, all that bullshit.

So he kept trying to bring it up and he was like mocking the investigation on the stand. And finally the judge was like, we are not here to talk about your book. We're here to talk about this real crime that happened. And so despite Christian's assumptions, they did have some compelling evidence. And that was the phone calls made to Darius' cell phone just before he went missing. Oh, shit. He didn't know about that this whole time? He did not know about that.

He knew that they had tracked his phone down, the cell phone at least, that he had stolen. But then they said, hey, we know that this phone came from a phone booth, but what's more, we know that the caller had used a phone card to operate the phone. And that same phone card had been used to make phone calls to Christian's parents, colleagues, and friends. Okay. Ding, ding, ding. Who's the common denominator?

So Christian continued to testify that he had never met Darius, never even heard of him. But a friend of Christian's ex-wife told a different story. She said, well, Christian had actually come and asked her about Darius, and he had a lot of questions. Where did Darius work? What did he do? Hey, if I wanna meet Darius, where can I find him? And this woman was like,

dude, I'm not getting involved in this. Finally, investigators had searched for evidence at Christian's parents' house. And it had been five years since the murder, so they thought they probably won't find anything. But like you alluded to earlier, he had kept some mementos from his crime. Okay. Dummy.

He had taken a pen and a business card from Darius's company, proving at the very least that it was a lie that he had no idea who Darius was. Right, right, right. What's more, he also kept a notebook about Darius and listed out all the things he knew about him. Are you fucking kidding me? That's like, now that's the smoking gun. That one right there. It's like 10 things I know about Darius. 10 ways I plan on hurting Darius because I'm jealous and don't like him.

Yeah, I'm jealous and I don't like him. Really, that is exactly how it went. They found this, he's like, I've never heard of the guy. And they're like, well, why do we have a notebook where you write down all the things that you know about this guy? Yeah, exactly. Nice try, nice try, guy. And they're like, well, why do we have a notebook where you write down all the things that you know about this guy? Yeah, exactly. Nice try, nice try, guy.

Police also found evidence on Christian's computer that he was stalking Stacia's new boyfriend, uh-oh, and he had typed notes on the man as well, just like his notebook, Hondarius. And the notes on the new man that she was with said, single, 34 years old, his mom died when he was eight. Apparently works at the railway company, probably as a train driver, but I'm not sure.

He's not even good at being a PI, you know? Like that's big whoop, I could have figured that out. So when he found out that this new boyfriend, Harry, was in a particular online chat room, he actually made an account, joined the chat room, and posted, sorry to bother you, but I'm looking for Harry. Does anyone know him? Okay.

Yeah, so he's like the least subtle guy ever. And finally, one of Christian's own friends testified against him, telling the court that just weeks after the murder, they were out with Christian when he began bragging about how much control he had over his ex-wife's life. He told his friend that he had killed one of her lovers with a rope.

Bad. Bad. And basically when this was announced at trial, it was the final nail in the coffin for his defense team. He had undone his own case with all his overconfidence, all his bullshit, thinking he was smarter than everybody. Investigators believed he simply overestimated himself and his intelligence. He thought he was untouchable. He thought he was too smart. And of course, looking back, if he had not sold the phone, if he had just tossed it in the

river, he probably never would have gotten caught because they wouldn't have been able to track. Isn't that crazy that he was trying to get rid of it too, just did it the wrong way. Exactly. He just wanted the extra 80 bucks off it, which is like a moron. So yeah, he probably would never, they probably would have never even gotten his name, let alone like that he had anything to do with this murder. However, some experts who evaluated Christian believed he sold the phone intentionally to get some sort of compensation from Darius.

Like, oh, he owes me this last thing. Even though he had taken his life, some psychiatrists who studied, not studied him, but like, you know, had appointments with him, basically determined that this was more motivated. His selling the phone was more motivated by like, now for my final act, I get some cash out of this deal. And either way, he felt entitled to everything he could take

beyond Darius' life even, believe it or not. And despite that, if he had never even returned to Poland, he probably would have been completely free for the rest of his life. But in his mind, he just was easy breezy. And as far as he was aware, he had gotten away with what reporters were calling the perfect crime. So in September of 2007,

Christian was sentenced to 25 years in prison, which is the minimum term for life imprisonment in Poland. The death penalty is outlawed there. And despite the evidence and the conviction, of course, Christian continues to maintain his innocence. Woe is me. Yeah. In an interview, he said... Don't care. In an interview, he said, they have ruined my personal life, my professional life, my family life. For what? For nothing. Oh my God. He also told David Grant of The New Yorker, I am being sentenced to prison for 25 years for writing a book. For writing a book.

Idiot. And that is a story of Christian Bala. It makes me happy that I think that was the first time you've ever ended a story with the last for being idiot. That was a good way to end it. I think that was the first time you've ever ended a story with the last word being idiot That was a good way to end it. It's very true. We should check the transcripts because somehow I don't I Feel like there must have been another idiot somewhere out there if you shout it at the end if you check the Transcript you'll actually see that I wrote it in red pen at the bottom just on all my notes Just my all my notes, just my story. Or the stenographer just kept writing idiot

without anyone asking about that. That's possible. Oh my god. Or the AI chat bot that does the transcriptions was like, idiot. Ugh, the privilege. It's disgusting. And the narcissism and the desperation to be a victim and the complete lack of awareness of their part in the responsibility or their lack of empathy. I mean, the list goes on.

You can even see it with like when his business fails and he's like, everybody made my business fail. You know, it's like, wow, this guy is I was just watching tic tocs about narcissism and there's TikToks about narcissism and there's one of them is called the vulnerable narcissist where it's like, it's like, oh, I couldn't do this because everyone else was in my way and everyone was taking this from me and everyone bothered me and everyone is everyone else's fault, not me. Shifting the blame always. Yeah. Yes.

Yes. So apparently that's a very specific type of narcissist. Well, remember they said he's a specific type of narcissist. Oh yeah. Okay. Hey, maybe we're onto something there. Wow. Well, good story, Christine.

That was, I feel like that was one of your shorter ones, but it was still jam-packed. Yeah, it was a doozy. I feel like the last story I did was like 10 pages and this one was eight. So it's still pretty long. How do you feel when you see your notes and they're like a certain length? Is there a certain length where you go, oh boy, that's gonna be a long one? Yeah, it's like anything over five and a half.

Really? Yeah. Wow. See for me- Five and a half, I'm like, this is pretty short. What is the font size dare I ask? I believe it's 11 Ariel Mine's eight aerial. So if mine goes over a page and a half, I have a problem

You're a lunatic with your with to be I zoom in to be fair. So it ever looks like it's eight. Okay, okay Okay, what okay, but you want oh you do it small so you fits on the page. Got you. I have a I have a certain in eight point font if it's over the page. Gotcha. I have a certain, in eight point font, if it's over a page and a half, I get really nervous. So it's more just to see like the amount of, it's more about the minutes. Well, yeah, and then when it's so small, it looks like just like a big block of text.

That's very intimidating. It is until you zoom in and then it just looks like as big as you want it to be. And then it says like, fun fact, Miss Mary Mack was about Bloody Mary. She actually had buttons all down her back. Wow. I mean, listen, that could have been about Bloody Mary too. I'm just saying.

It could have been. I wonder about Miss Mary Mack in a lot of ways. I love it. Is she doing okay? I think about her all the time. I do too. I was like, did she ever change her wardrobe or like, is she just gonna keep cycling the same dress over and over?

I mean, silver buttons, like why would you go, you can't go wrong. Until we're back in our gold era. She probably heard about rose gold and got real nervous. I think we all heard about rose gold and got real nervous. Probably so. Probably so. What, did you have a favorite playground chant? We all heard about Rose Gold and got real nervous. Probably so.

Did you have a favorite playground chant? I mean, that was probably it. Miss Mary Mack? Oh, no, no, no. What's the one? This one. Patty cake? No, no.

We did it in an after hours once. Maybe that is it. Patty cake? No, no, Miss Mary Mack. What's the one where she goes to the movies and unbuttons her flies and whatever? Oh, oh, the one where every last part of it feels like you're going to cuss but then it's not. That's my favorite. Here, I'll say a line. The boys in the back, the boys are in the,

yipping up their flies are in the meadow, the bees are in the park. I mean, Susie and her boyfriend are kissing in the D-A-R-K, D-A-R-K, dark, dark, dark. And then remember we were doing it in the after hours and you were getting so fed up because every time it stopped and then I just kept going because I just kept adding verses.

You were not having an enjoyable experience. See, it's why I don't want to encourage you with your rhyming abilities, because I'm like, you could just start freestyling and then it never ends, ever. Well, if you want to hear us, I guess, freestyle more limericks, you can head over to our Patreon with our after hours and see what we're about over there.

I think we're going to do a ghost test, ghost quiz. Thank you for remembering. I'm actually gonna do a what type of ghost are you quiz today? I know Christine's gonna be a poltergeist without a question. But if you would like to find out what I'm gonna be, head on over to Patreon.

Great idea. And that's why we drink.