And That's Why We Drink - E376 Vintage Honks and Zoomies Screams

Episode Date: April 21, 2024

It's episode 376 and we're getting our zoomies out! Tune in this week to hear about Christine's psychic journey and Em's travel spending. Then Em covers the wild tale of the Char Man of Ojai Valley. And Christine brings us the second part of her two-part story on Ruby Franke/8 Passengers. And how many tchotchkes is too many tchotchkes? ...and that's why we drink!Don't forget to pre-order our new book! bit.ly/HRANextStop

Hey. Hello. Alright. See ya. Why are- what do you- uh-hmm. I feel like I- I only saw you within 48 hours. So I feel like I don't know what to talk about. You know-

Yeah, I didn't give us enough of a- like a- Like a- Like a- Like a- Like a- Like a- Why what do you hmm? I feel like I I only saw you within 48 hours so I feel like I don't know what to talk about you know, I didn't give us enough of a Extensive list of things to discuss, you know in love on the spectrum when Tanner is like I don't know what to say right now, but I'm having a really good time. I've never watched that show Okay. Well, maybe you could read the context out of my example

Where I just I just wanted to clarify so like as we tell the example, I've never seen it. So I don't know who we are talking about, but go ahead. Well that was it. I don't know what we're going to talk about, but I'm having a really good time. Oh, that's what matters. Well, I'm happy about that. How are you doing? Do you have any fun weekend plans?

What's wrong with us today? I don't know it feels wrong. Everything feels wrong. Come on, maybe we have to get some zoomies out. Your turn. Better? Well, I am. Okay, this is speaking of zoomies. This is do I see remember Anubis? Mm-hmm Yeah, we got this guy in Salem. Isn't he cute? He is cute. Do you want to tell a story yet of your statue experience? Sure, you know what? Let's tell that story. Okay, good. Wait, you gotta get the zoomies out or else I look like it like an idiot. Oh Right. I wouldn't want that.

No, you have to join me or else we're not best friends. Thank you. Okay. Now you don't look like an idiot. That's the good news. You must be so used to that with the little kid though. Like that can't have been your first time today. We did go to little gym and we did not follow any instructions

and did our own adventuring, so yes, it would not be my first time today. So you are correct in your assessment. Oh boy. Okay, I don't know how to even tell the story. Basically, I'm trying to think of how to even begin, but so weird. Have we talked about it? Sorry, I'm trying to think of how to even begin, but some weird ghosty stuff. Have we talked about it?

Sorry, I'm not trying to interrupt you. I will not interrupt you after this. Just kidding. Please do. I don't want you to not. I don't know what to do when you're quiet. I think we've talked about this before on the show, or have I just been around you?

We have not. Okay, I've just heard it. Okay. I just like drowned you in information when I saw you in Salem Thank you Okay So what happened is I was going through this weird after I read that book the untethered soul

I got really just like in this woo phase and I started thinking about consciousness, you know as you do and I started meditating regularly and taking these like E online psychic courses. Like on Udemy, all these platforms. I was just watching like every master class I could get my hands on. I was following all these YouTubers who are psychic mediums.

I was just trying to learn as much as I could about like, you know opening that part of myself up and so I got into this zone where I really wanted to connect with my spirit guides and Do some past life exploration because I ever since I was really little as I've talked about on the show before like years ago I've always had this very strong pull to ancient Egypt. And I just thought, well, that's just a fascinating subject. A lot of people feel that way.

Um, but so as I was meditating daily for like 45 minutes to an hour, I started getting these like very clear visuals of what seemed to be ancient Egypt. And so one afternoon I was just going through a box in my closet and I found, I was just reorganizing and I found my old journals and I have eight million of them, right, but I have all these old dream journals and for fun I just flipped through one randomly and I started seeing like Egypt on the paper.

And so I started reading through and it was when I was probably like 13 12 13 I had been writing down all the dreams I was having about ancient Egypt and I was like, oh my god I remember having those dreams, but I didn't know I had written them down. So I'm reading them and I'm like, this is crazy It's about how I would sit and my dream was always that I was healing somebody One was a snake bite one was like really bad blisters from sun. And I would always dream that I was using my hands and like healing them. And my and that was it. That was always a dream. So in the most eerie way, you also had the the thing that I always love.

Hated was when you you say you were looking through your old journals as a child. And the first one you found was you saying, I had the dream again. Oh, that's right. That's right. You're so right. It's an 8024 movie. You're so right. It said I had the dream again, which I was like, holy shit. I didn't even know I'd written them down, let alone like repeatedly. And so I was like, well, that's crazy. Especially with all this. Like, so I think I was meant to find that because I was like, okay, I really got to get to the bottom of this. So I do this full on past life regression. It's like 90 minutes, I'm like totally tranced out and I just start writing down like everything I'm feeling

and seeing and experiencing. And these names just kept like, all these words like kept coming into my head and I would just write them down and I had no idea what they meant. So the first one that I got was the name. So I, you know that Eye of Horus imagery? So I kept seeing that and I was like, oh, like I don't know what that's called, but I've heard of that before. Anyway, so I kept seeing that and then the name I kept getting

was Sekhmet. And I was like, I don't know what that means. I don't know, is that another symbol? I have no idea. After the meditation, I go about my day. I don't really think about it. I just put my journal down and later on, I'm falling asleep that night and that damn name comes back in my head and I was like, oh, I never looked that up.

And so I roll over, it's nighttime, I open my phone and I just start Googling and I type it. I have a screenshot, this really freaked me out, but I typed in Sekhmet. So like, I didn't know how to spell it. Um, and it's this lion goddess, like I had no fucking clue, but it, whatever point being it's this line goddess. She's the goddess of war and healing, which I thought was very interesting. And, um, she is one aspect of that, like, eye of

Horus, but she's like the feminine version, basically. And so I'm like, Whoa, that's freaky. And then I'm falling asleep and I see the word, like, I just like pops in my brain, the word hotep. And I'm like, what the fuck is hotep? So then I look that up, H-O-T-E-P. And apparently that is an Egyptian word, meaning either to be satisfied at peace, or it also means an offering that is ritually presented to a deity. So I'm like, okay, so Hotepe and Sekhmet keep coming up. So I'm like, okay, so what,

I'm supposed to like give her an offering? I don't even know who this is. So the next day, Em and I fly out, I crash us into a snowbank, you've all heard that story. And the next day, Em and I are wandering around, we get our little aura pictures taken, we go into this one shop called Omen that I was like really, really gung-ho about it. So when I wanted to go into the most, we walk in literally the first thing, Em goes, look at that. And it's this like huge wall or the huge like

shelf of all these Egyptian statues. And it says imported from Egypt. They're like these beautiful stone sculptures. And I'm just kind of looking at them and they're just so beautiful. And I just pick one up and I look at the bottom and it says Sekhmet on it. And I was like, ah! And I like went running over and he said,

well, now you have to buy it. And it was really fucking expensive. And we were like, and was like, you can expense it. I was like, I'm not gonna expense this statue. Honestly, I feel like I'll be like smited or something if I do that. But I bought her, here she is, hold on.

If only you were having like the word DeLorean pop up in your head and then we ran into one. I know, I know. I'd be like, oh, you have to buy it now for me. It's like new Rode microphone. Weird, that keeps coming into my head. So here she is. She's a beauty.

She was mailed to the store from Egypt by the artisan who made it. She's just very beautiful. So I brought her home in my suitcase and I put her on my little, what I now call an altar, I guess, I don't know. And so I'm just in this very strange zone where just synchronicities keep happening.

And you know, there's a lot more just little stuff that, oh, like I pulled a tarot card and it was like her tarot card. Just all these weird stuff, all this weird stuff was happening. And it keeps happening and I'm trying to lean into it. I don't quite know what it means. So if anybody out there has any sort of like clarity or guidance or other

synchronicities that match up with this one let me know. But otherwise yeah that's my Sekhmet story. Goddess of War she's very scary but very intense and when I looked up like anybody who's covered her talked about her they say like if she enters your life she's like let's fucking go. Like she's intense. She's like fiery. She's very, she basically like murdered a bunch of people back in the day in the mythology of her. And the way that they, the way that they stopped her is they died the river to look like blood because she was like drinking everyone's blood. Then they filled it with beer and got her drunk so that she fell asleep. And then she woke up. This is very me. She woke up and was like, oh, oops, did I do that? And everyone was like, you

were like a crazed lunatic. And she's like, oh, I guess I'll try to heal everybody now. So she's a goddess of healing too. I just think it's really interesting. I don't know. It does weirdly sound like something you would do. You're right, it does. I was like, oh, and so offering a hotep, an offering for her is often beer. So I was like, I can do that. Interesting.

You know, it could become really dangerous, a slippery slope if you hoteped some blood her way, you know. Oh God. I wonder if, since we're, well I don't know, maybe she'd be mad about it, but I bet she'd be interested to see the Chicago River during St. Patrick's Day when they die it green. I'd just be like, does this bring you back?

I'm sure she loves fun little kitschy Irish celebrations. Little moments where we trick her about what the body of water looks like, yeah. I'm sure she actually hated it. Yeah, I'm sure she'll love that memory. Yeah, I don't think she would like that very much. But thank you, she's now staring at me. I feel like I have to turn her away.

So I'm like half scared and half into her. I mean, I don't know. I just feel like if she's on my side, great. I mean, I don't know, man. Maybe it's good that she's on your side or maybe she's not on your side. I don't know, I don't know, man. Maybe it's good that she's on your side, or maybe she's not on your side. I don't know, I don't totally know. Maybe she's about to rain chaos, but.

I mean, it's entirely possible, probable, really. It's just two messy bitches together. Just, bad bitch with a baddie friend. Yeah, it's like that, you know, airy, that like fire sign, air sign situation where they're just like, where we're just toxic and like keep just egging each other on, you know? So I don't know, you know, I don't know if anyone has any clarity on this. The other weird thing was I kept having these intense dreams or like flash, but not flash, well sort of flashbacks like when I was doing these meditations.

And I would like write them down. Like I said like, oh, you know, a mud, a clay mud hut. Like I was describing what I saw and then like Googling it later and it matched up to the, it was really creepy. It was really creepy. To save your own sanity, I feel like we're gonna get a lot of messages

about people asking where you learned the most or if you had any resources to pass on to people. That's a very good question. I feel like I've just been so chaotically bouncing around trying to find anybody that I felt like a connection with to follow and I haven't quite found anyone yet. Like I feel like I've watched so many different people

talk about their experiences and how they practice their psychic stuff and nobody so far has really like made it to the point where I want to like promo them because I just haven't really clicked with anybody yet. So I'm looking, but if anyone has recommendations, by the way, I would definitely take them. But the courses I took were on Udemy, U-D-E-M-Y,

and they have a few like psychic development courses, things like that where they're video courses and they give you like little practical lessons and practice tools and stuff. But yeah, if anyone has anyone I can follow who might have more guidance on this, let me know. All right. Anyway, why do you drink?

Cause of me, probably. I'm still thinking about that damn tooth. That's why I'm drinking. Cause I can't. I am trying my best to not think about it and I can't, I can't stop thinking about it. It really sucks. Are you doing the thing where your tongue keeps touching it?

Uh-huh. On purpose? It's constant. God, I literally, I don't know. Does it hurt though? You're okay. So I have a really bad headache because it's raining here and that's what happens

because my sinuses are trash. And so I feel like it hurts, but I think I just have a sinus headache. I'm just falling apart. I feel very bad for you. Maybe you need like a really messy, chaotic, bad bitch to just come in and fix everything. So I would just keep her around for a little bit. She just saw you and went...

I hope she stays. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm just gonna handle it. Step aside. It's possible. I could use the help, okay? And she knows it and everyone knows it. You know, one of the reasons I drink is after touring, let's just, I don't even want to

get into it because I'm actually I think I really need to like look in the mirror soon, but my spending was out of control when we were on tour. Salem, I justify Salem, I justify because it was Salem and it was with you and it was our first time and But there were other times where? Man, I fucking love a tchotchke. I gotta be honest and I was doing a little chow here a little and honestly, I I'm curious But at the same time, I'm so glad I don't have I'm not able to do this

I kind of wish everything I bought on tour I just put in one bin and didn't touch until the end of the tour to see how much I accumulated. Because I think it would have been an incredible number. Like I think it would have been not money wise, but I think just in items. Like I mean, like even I was buying like 10 stickers at every place. And so like 10 stickers times 20 cities like that's 200 fucking stickers and like I'm so scared what I think about like I'm

like anyway so the reason I drink is because I think now that we're not touring anymore you have one more say to fly to LA but I don't have to travel and so because I don't have to fly anymore, uh, for a few months, I am just looking around and I'm like, okay, now I'm sitting in the damage I've caused and, um, I don't- You're in the rubble of your own spending. And I don't know where to put anything. I don't know where to put anything. Cause I'm just like, oh, I have s- we already didn't have a lot of room.

Now where does it go? Because I've bought more things. I mean, I literally bought a fucking, did I tell you about the horn? The what? Yeah, I bought a car horn. What? No. What?

What the fuck is that? See, like, why did I do that? But like, I don't- Like, literally, M, why? Okay, I will tell you. I will tell you, this is actually one of my favorite purchases. I don't even care. I know it makes the least sense, but will tell you. I will tell you, this is actually one of my favorite purchases. I don't even care.

I know it makes the least sense. Can you tell everybody what it is? Cause I barely even know what it is. Okay, this is a car horn from 1910. Oh my god. In this back before they literally had like digital horns inside of, or like an actual horn inside your wheel. You would take this little piece

and you would hook it onto your window and when you were driving around you would squeeze it when people were not moving fast enough I guess I love her so much so is that vintage or is it like a replica no it's literally from 1910 that's really cool right okay so I like why would anybody like diss you for that I mean I know I did for minute, but I just couldn't see what was happening I just kept hearing it sound if it was a replica. I'd be like this is so stupid but because yeah That's pretty cool. And it's so honks. Listen, listen, listen, hon pretend. You're a noisy driver. Hey, I'm walking here No, I'll just I'll just wander into the road

Oops everyone No, I'll just wander into the road. Da da da da. Oops. Why, how I say? That horse down carriage is coming straight for me. By the way, whoever lives upstairs is finally getting what they deserve with this fucking clip. Yeah, they deserve this. Honestly, this is like a multi-purpose tool and I don't think you should ever question yourself for buying it, is what I have to say.

That's my, so that was easily like the dumbest purchase. Everything else made maybe a little more sense, but like, but so from 200 stickers to a car horn from basically the 1800s. A vintage car horn, that's the wildest thing I've ever heard. Like over a hundred year old car horn. I did test it on my Subaru. The window is made differently these days.

Can you believe it? So it doesn't fit. Your Subaru? I don't know where to put it, but it will be put somewhere. And if not, I feel like I'll find a way to like DIY add it to something. We should use it on a ghost hunt and be like, if you're from the early 1900s,

you know how to use this thing, you know, squeeze it. If we ever go to like Henry Ford's museum and see like... He's gonna be like, put that back on the assembly line. That's for the Model T. Anyway, no, I think I'm just sitting in awareness that I got a lot of stuff. It wasn't a lot of stuff for like, I'm like financially in trouble,

but I am seeing like my behavior right in front of me. You know what I mean? So it just hurts my feelings a little bit. It hurts your feelings, but that's part of life, you know? You have to face... You have to reckon with what you've done, you know? It's... We've all been there. I had just downsized my closet, and then on tour,

I'm not kidding, I had to have bought like 15 shirts. I had to have. I had just downsized my closet and then on tour, I'm not kidding, I had to have bought like 15 shirts. I had to have, I had to have. And Salem, are you kidding me? I bought like three shirts with you. But you can't not. That's what I'll say. Like it's not possible, it's simply not possible.

I'm the worst therapist. Your poor therapist is like, I've been trying to undo this for weeks and I'm sitting here like, no, it's just part of life, Em. This is what you do and what you are. In a hoop that never ends. Yeah. Anyway, I'm just thinking about, I don't know.

I don't know where to put anything. And so anyway, that spiraled me into downsizing different things that I could control. And so I downsize my my mug collection recently. And I learned that I actually bought two more mugs while I was on tour. So that had to I immediately bought them and then had to consider how good they were. Oh, my God. And one of them was so tidy, it can't even be used to drink. I think in my mind at the time I was like, I'll use it to hold more tchotchkes. Yeah, well, I was gonna say, every time I have an extra mug, I'm like, do I need another pencil holder?

Right, that's exactly what I'm thinking. I own maybe six pens in this entire apartment, but I have about 25 mugs for those pens. Well, we just need to go shopping for pens. That's the only solution. Like, OK, here's one of the here's the two mugs I got. One of the mugs I got at the Henry Ford Museum, because I really was just so like that was such a cool museum.

Then the other mug I got, because OK, the one I got at the Henry Ford Museum, it was a Lammy's diner mug and Lammy's diner is one of the cars in this massive museum. It's a train car that they refurbished into a diner in the middle of the museum. It looked very cool. So then I ended up having to get a mug of it. Then the other mug I got was from another diner in New Hampshire when I was passing through and when we were passing through, you mean when we were fucking Oh, before the

snowbank. No, I went through New Hampshire again after you left and I after Wow, that was brave of you. Thank you. I know I but so in New Hampshire, there's like It's like in the crossfires of like Maine, Massachusetts it's like in where all the all the cities touch all the states touch there is a literal roundabout in the middle of the interstate and next to the roundabout is a diner called the roundabout diner and

Their catchphrase is the best food around. Oh How do you not get it? So how do you not get a mug from there? Anyway. You have to, again, it's legally speaking, I'm pretty sure it's required. So I don't know what your therapist is gonna say, but she's incorrect. I think she's not gonna know

until I'm drinking out of a mug in front of her and she's like, that's a new one. Where'd you get that? I thought we weren't buying more mugs. Anyway I got it down to 12 mugs. Oh that's pretty good. But Allison has like another dozen so we still have two dozen mugs for two people. I was like I have so many effing mugs I just put them in different rooms and I'm like this is my upstairs mug like I don't know what I'm doing. I'm just making excuses for my own behavior. So I get it.

If I, when I think about, like, so I have 12 mugs that I can choose from in the cupboard, but when I think about my tchotchke mugs, I still have like two or three floating around somewhere. So- Yeah, but that's different. That's a decorative mug. Obviously. And one of them is your-

Remember you got it for you forever ago was the coffin, the caskets. Okay, I'm so glad you still have that. I was afraid to ask, but that was a, that's also vintage. I feel like vintage things don't count. You're right. But it's also, it's one of my- It's a rule I've invented.

But I keep like all of our like memory cards from our investigations in there. So- Oh, cute. See, it's not fashion, it's function. You know? You know, you tell Allison that because she is so over me. But anyway- I'm afraid to tell her that,

but you can tell her I said it and then I'll turn my phone off. So that's fine. Oh, can I tell you one last thing? It's not really why I drink, but it is a funny little thing that happened. So- Always.

So, Allison has been gone literally since before Salem we we've She's been gone gone gone in the literal Amazon Yeah, like a literal literal Amazon. Yeah doesn't come back for another like it's it's mid-april I haven't seen her since mid-march. I won't be seeing her until Me until our show in LA so in May for God's sake and then immediately after that We have friends in town. I'm seeing you so like we're only gonna get like that the day of the show to be alone together And then I don't really see her until Min May it seems so

Big trip I was not invited and honestly, thank God because I would not survive the Amazon There's just no way I Would have had to really do some work on finding a replacement it would have been a lot of work for me So I appreciate it. Thank you I do you know Allison she we've gone to the Philippines together for RJ's wedding at one point I was supposed to go where was I supposed to go with her, but then your baby got me sick. Oh, Iceland. And then the, and now she's like,

I don't think I get invited anymore. I think she's like, it's obvious you're not having fun. So I'm just not gonna bring you. I mean, you didn't seem too upset about it. I was not too upset. I was, I was not too upset. I honestly, I don't want to say it too loudly, but your baby getting me sick might have actually saved me.

I never thought you'd admit that aloud on the podcast, but thank you for that, because I've been waiting for that one. So thank you. You're welcome. Allison and her family all travel very differently than I do. I think I would have been faking a very happy mood in a lot of spaces.

So. But isn't that beautiful when like your partner knows that and is like, I'm not even gonna question it. Just like. Yeah, well example, next week I go on a trip with my mom and Allison was invited and went, no thank you, I'm not going. So we operate very well together

and that we know to not be near each other often. You operate so well together when you're apart. It's really powerful stuff. Anyway, Allison was in the Amazon, or is in the Amazon. She's literally, she decided she was gonna take a whole month off of work and just go. And-

I need you to understand how relieved I was when I saw her post on Instagram. And I was like, oh my God, she's alive. I don't know anything about, but the way she travels too, I'm like, that girl is just roughing it down there. And I'm like, are you okay? There's big spiders and snakes. She literally slept outside for multiple days,

for like six days in a row. And she was off for it,? Her phone didn't work. I know. And I guess she booked a tour, to be with a tour guide through all this, and she assumed other people would be on this tour, but nope, it's just her and a random man, a random man for six days in the rainforest.

That seems really wise. No further comment. And so the one second that she actually did get service, she FaceTimed me and just to like, it was like perfect. It should have been a Renaissance painting. The difference between us is that she was calling me from the rainforest and I was in a rainforest cafe in the Mall of America.

Like. You were like, I missed you. So I came down to the Glendale Galleria. I wanted to spend some time thinking of you. The Mall of America in Minneapolis. Oh my God, it's even better. Come on. Nothing beats that. And she showed me a monkey and I showed her the monkey behind me

that was robotic and animatronic. And you're like, that one has a straw in it and you can drink a cocktail out of it. So I don't know what you're like, that one has a straw in it and you can drink a cocktail out of it. So I don't know what you're thinking, but mine. That's what I said. I was like, mine was cheaper and more fun and there's no mosquitoes, so I win. I'm saying it.

You do. Anyway, that was my funny story of like, of all the places you could have called me in while you were in the rainforest. I mean, that was just beautiful. Please tell me, I'm gonna make, can I request, who out there makes Renaissance paintings? I would really like that.

I would kill, I would hang that up in my own home one day. I would have a painting of Alison with a monkey, me with a monkey. The vintage horn right on top. It would be like such a beautiful display. Anyway, I guess that's why, I drink because of the downsizing and having to like reconcile with who I am as a person. Right. I actually wasn't even going to talk about Alison, but I'm so glad because I'm just I get so anxious, but not really anxious. But

I do wonder, you know, is she doing okay? And I didn't want to go there, but I'm so glad that I saw her Instagram post and I am now aware that she's alive and kicking. So that's good. She'll be, apparently she, I mean, listen to this. By the way, I get so, I, ugh. She's the opposite of who my mother expected for me, because my mom wanted nice Jewish boy energy, who like doesn't ever leave the house,

who like just kind of stays put and just doesn't doesn't cause a scene as a is a cautious risk taker. So it's on the occasional cruise? The occasional cruise maybe just to stroll down the road doesn't want to raise any any feathers and then Allison goes um hey how's your mom gonna feel about me going away for a month off grid in the rainforest and also while I'm there I'm gonna go away for a month off grid in the rainforest. And also while I'm there, I'm gonna be piranha fishing. And while I'm there, I'm going to be, oh, she narrowly escaped death

from a very poisonous snake twice now. And she, I mean, like my mother is having a heart attack. She's like, you could have picked anyone. And I'm like, I live with that every day. I know. It's almost like you did the thing of like, oh, you chose someone the opposite of what your parents did as like a punishment,

but like you're also deeply being punished for it. I know, I rebelled a little too close to the sun. Right, right, maybe mama's right. No, I'm just kidding, Alison's my favorite person, but she really does know how to get your heart nervous. I already have heart problems, and then she tells me she's going to the Amazon, and I just kind of bend over holding my chest.

She's like, look at this giant poisonous spider. I crawled under its web and I'm like, why? No, stop. She also, she could not look more like fucking Nigel Thornberry in all of her pictures because she's wearing these like green khakis and like a mosquito netted shirt I've never seen. It's true.

I don't know, I don't know who I'm with. There's one of her in a boat on the Amazon wearing our one of our podcast shirts that like the fan made that like loose one that I also have and I'm like wow I didn't think we'd see Footage of this making it out into the literal Amazon, but here we are. I I love her very much, but I do fear if we ever decide to have children There's a 50% chance now that they're going gonna be a very they're gonna make dangerous decisions when like how do I feel like the nice? Jewish boy thing then I would have had a kid who just wants to stay home have a warm cup of tea and just like

Not not and then that's about it so well I will say that you would need to Definitely commit to at least one because if the first one doesn't work out and ends up in the rainforest, then you need one that will be on your side for solidarity, you know? I need one who could side eye with me when Alison's like, who wants to go on a trip?

Who will go on the cruise? And you're like, there's a water slide on my trip. And Alison's like, there's piranhas on mine. One kid goes this one goes that way. That sounds great. I just need, I'm going on your trip by the way. Leona and I are coming with you. No offense, Alpelt.

FaceTime from the Mall of America. I was gonna say, as I'm discussing my like shopping problem, I really just want, if I'm gonna have a kid, I want somebody who just wants to go on a shopping spree and then we just go home. Like have a nice dinner, maybe some drinks, maybe like a fun little movie or something. The things that would be the equivalent

of a nice long weekend. You want your child to be a nice Jewish husband. I do, yeah. A nice Jewish boy. A nice Jewish boy. Go to the mall, have dinner, have a cheesecake factory, then come home and what an exciting day we've had. That's exactly it.

You get it. That's all I want too. So I get it. No, I do. You could be my nice Jewish boy. How about that? I kind of am. The more we talk about it, I'm like, oh, maybe I fill that role.

It's an honor, I will say, and a privilege. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Well anyway with all that Shall we get into something just insanely disturbing? Oh always My story is Short today, it's just like a quick little local legend and Also, like I feel gross talking about it, but it is a legend

and it is like very popular in the area. So we should talk about it. But here's a PSA. Well, maybe maybe give the PSA later, but you'll realize why I'm bothered by it pretty early on. So, OK, this is the story of the Char Man of Ojai Valley. I've never heard of Ojai Valley. I've never heard of such a thing. Me either.

I thought you were gonna say Charmander. I got really excited because that's my favorite Pokemon. I literally, every time I wrote Charman in my notes, I had to delete the der because I kept writing Charmander. Charmander is also a legend you should cover one day. But anyway, go ahead. I would love to if I just went episode by episode

and just covered all original 150 Pokemon. They are legends, so. They are legends in their own right, agreed. So Ohai Valley, did you ever go to Ohai Valley when you, or Ohai when you lived here? Okay. Were you did you ever go to Ohio Valley when you I know hi when you lived here, okay? the only time I ever heard of oh hi was in There was a TV show my mom and I were obsessed with in like the

early 2000s called brothers and sisters Do you remember that show? No, it was like on the CW or something or eight It was I don't like couldn't have been on the CW or something or it was I don't like couldn't have been on the CW. It had to have been it was like a more an adult year show. It was on at like nine o'clock at night. But Brothers and Sisters it was it had to be like 2008 ish 2009 ish that the show is on. And my mom and I would watch it every week when it came out. And it was about like, I

think like six or seven brothers and sisters who all ran a winery in Ojai. And- Oh my God, what? And then the youngest one, Justin, he's like kind of like the bad boy. He was like the sex symbol of them all in the show. And everyone always wanted scenes with Justin.

And then he ends it up, Justin ends up dating this girl. And then they find out like at the end of season one, they're like, they're after their dad passed away, they're finding out that he actually had an affair, a long time affair with their mom and had a baby girl and Justin's dating her. Ah! Oh shit.

So it's his half sister? Yeah. That was crazy. Okay. This absolutely is giving ABC family vibes and it was on ABC. Apparently it came on Sunday nights after Desperate Housewives. So yeah, you were really watching some- That's why we got into it.

That's why we got into it because we were always watching Desperate Housewives and we must have just- It's a great show. ...never changed the channel and we were like, oh, let's see what this is about. And then we got hooked. I love it. I mean, it lasted for like five years, five seasons. Yeah, we were we were big fans of that show.

And then I got canceled for some reason. But anytime I saw the word or I still see the word Ohio, just think about that damn family. And I'm like, oh, man. And I'm so glad that's where they lived. They I think they lived nearby. They worked there. So. Oh, OK. OK. They had a winery in Ohio, that's all I know. I know nothing about Ohio. I know more about Ohio, but that's not very exciting.

Oh, J. A. Oh, J. Yeah, A, I, completely different. So, yeah, Ohio Valley. In 1948, there was a brush fire that swept through the area and it burned for four days And they say that it took over 30,000 acres

13 houses were destroyed and somehow no people were harmed. There's no documentation of people dying in this At least it seems that nobody was harmed but the local legend is that a father and son died in the fire. And they were said to live on the outskirts of Ojai at the end of a long dirt road, and that section of road is still said to be incredibly haunted. But because they were at the end of a road and the fire was coming up on them, they got basically backed into the mountains and they were trapped. And so they ended up. Oh, God. Dying from the fire was coming up on them, they got basically backed into the mountains and they were trapped. And so they ended up dying from the fire. Both suffered from pretty severe burns

that left them unrecognizable. The boy allegedly survived, but the father did not. Ooh. And then after that, I mean, I think that was, that's just like an easy legend to go after when you're in high school and you know, there was a fire decades ago. It's like, oh, maybe someone survived and now they're they haunt the area. And there's like the abandoned road that's haunted. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It feels very teen.

It's easy. It's easy. But then the legends like kind of divulges into multiple variants. Actually, the Ojai Valley News, I think. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, the original thought of like what the origin story would be is that the the boy, I don't know how old he is. I don't know if he's actually a boy or a young man, but he was so distraught about his father dying in the fire that it drove him to madness immediately and refusing to accept the fact that he's just lost his father.

He tried to save his father by removing the burns, a.k.a. peeling off his skin. What the fuck? And apparently when that didn't work, he really fully went insane and hung his father from a tree by his ankles where the body was later found after the fire. Again, this is... What? There is no documentation of this. This is the story that people told.

This is like the urban legend? This is the urban legend. So hopefully this is not true. Please. When people found the boy later, who was also severely burned, they tried to run after him to bring him in for medical attention. But he fled into the hills and there were multiple times where police or even like random residents tried to like capture him to bring him down to go get help and he would just

escape every single time. He didn't want help or he was either ashamed of being seen or something like that but he he would always try to get away from people. Do we know is there like an was he like a really little or was he like a I don't know I am boy I'm saying boy because that was what the sources would say but it's again. It's an urban legend. So right, right, right Who knows if this is if it's real? We don't know an age and if it's not real which it sounds like it probably isn't then you just get to pick the age In your head great and in my mind, he's like 1920. Oh, okay. Okay. So like teenager. Oh, yeah teenager He's like 1920. Oh, okay. Okay. So like teenager. Oh, yeah teenager

Cool. So anyway, yeah the town would try to go save him or bring him to a hospital But he would always run away from them and then people began Like after years of eventually him not showing up or people trying to help him and they just kind of gave up and let Him live in the hills and next to the ruins of his old home kind of gave up and let him live in the hills next to the ruins of his old home. Enough time passed, nobody saw him for a while. And then people started reporting seeing the boy again, but he still looked just as severely injured as he did the day of the fire. So his skin looked freshly charred and yeah.

Another version of the story is that he never actually went insane. He never touched his father. He never made things, you know, accidentally worse for his father's condition, but he just happened to survive the wounds and was left severely scarred. And he was afraid of people gawking. And so he just kind of hid away in the hills. Not only would he have been afraid of gawking, but this is real, somehow, he wouldn't have, he might have been afraid of being gawked at at the time,

but he might have also been avoiding going down and going into the public because the world at this moment still had ugly laws, which is, that is real. So, some- Sounds like you to rest me for like an asshole. I literally all I wanted to do was make a joke about this. And then I was like, well, let me read on. And then I went, oh my God.

But yes, it's no longer funny. My first thought was immediately I'm finding Christine for the last seven years of my life. Wow. Ha ha ha ha. The Venmo like five cents at a time are gonna start coming in. Swear to God.

Well, I don't even, I have to figure out, even if I charged you a penny for every second of my life for seven years, you owe me a fat check. I sure do. I don't deny it anymore. And late fees. So anyway.

Late fees, my interest is piling up. So yeah, ugly laws. I did not know were a real thing, but some cities literally forbid visibly disabled people from being in public, including those that were, this is a quote, including those that were diseased, maimed, mutilated or in any way deformed so as to be an unsightly or disgusting object. Humans are fucking trash, dude. Like we talk about pretty privilege today,

but like, and then some people even have the nerve to be like, oh, pretty privilege isn't a thing. Okay, then you're fucking pretty, I get it. But like also- Yeah, exactly, like you just immediately admitted, yeah. But to know that, I mean, you can't deny that pretty privilege was a thing then because they're literally being called unsightly disgusting Objects in fact, it's like part of the law Yeah, they will literally be fined and removed from the public so that way you don't have to look at them

So that's fucking crazy So if you had it and I'm sure this became a slippery slope, at least in today's world, can you imagine how awful people would be with it? But like, if you had any scar, any blemish, I mean, think about the witch trials, if there was a freckle that someone didn't like about you. Good point.

They'll find something, yeah. If you had any scars in more severe cases, like if you had severe scarring, if you had missing limbs, if you have gone through something that most people don't go through. Already a traumatizing event, you would think, and then... Yeah, anything going on that someone could clock is now a fine offense.

That's crazy. This started in the 1860s in San Francisco, and this is an article about the ugly laws. There's one statement in here that said, as one treads our streets, the eye is shocked at the frequent appearance of maimed creatures whose audacity is only paralleled by the hideousness of their deformities.

You have the nerve to speak of audacity, sir. It's breathtaking. It's breathtaking. Out of control. And so fucking grip, dude, especially. I feel like I didn't see this coming, but California was especially militant and enforcing these laws with injured veterans on the street. And literally arresting them just to take them out of the public so others didn't have to see them.

This is like, gets more and more stunning by the second, in the worst way. Ugly laws only ended in 1974. Oh my God. I mean, I'm sure they were probably like more, just I hope at least more like obsolete by then, but still. I hope it was one of those laws where it's like, you can't go to an ice cream shop on a Thursday

with the $5 bill in your left pocket. Like I hope it was something. Indianapolis, you can't have an ice cream cone in your back pocket on a Sunday. Yeah, that's like literally one of the laws. Yep. I hope that I hope that it's a law like that But the fact that like I mean imagine by the way, my mom in 1974 was 12 So primo puberty stage just imagine getting bullied being like they're gonna arrest you for being so ugly like I mean It's hard enough being 14 so ugly. I mean, it's hard enough being 14. Come on. Yeah, only ends in 1974. Linda was like, that would never have happened to me. I was really pretty and I still am.

She'll tell me all about it on our cruise next week. I can't wait. So if this is a real story, keep in mind that Historically at the time and it was in California was where ugly laws even started and he's in California He might have really just not wanted to like It's not just gawking that he was afraid of he was afraid of being fucking arrested for looking the way he did for going through a traumatic event, so this is why I was Already so grossed out about doing this episode because I'm like, the whole legend is someone who's probably just a fucking burn victim, like a survivor of a fucking house fire where he just watched his father die in front of him, which like,

thank God this probably isn't true. But even the imaginary version, I'm like, this poor man, it just doesn't feel right. It just doesn't feel right. No. So, but also, because I was a shitty teenager, I probably would have eaten this shit up. I would have been like, oh, this is amazing. Like, we have a local legend in our town. Ha ha ha.

Oh, yeah, because the kids love shit like this. And now as an adult, I'm like, oh, my God. Like, I would be such a square to the kids in the neighborhood now. I know, I feel like we've really become those grownups who are like, well, you know, that's not really very respectful My myself at 14 would be like get out of here you old coot and like just like I would have been oh my god. I was such a piece of shit. Okay, so Sometimes I think back and I'm like if I could talk to 14 year old me Oh my God, I was such a piece of shit. Okay, so,

sometimes I think back and I'm like, if I could talk to 14 year old me, what would I do? And it's like, honestly, I would volunteer to not be in that room immediately. I'd be like, I don't wanna be there. I agree with you. We'd be in a different room and we'd lock the door to avoid ourselves. If 14 year old me heard about ugly laws,

that would have been my quickest insult on people. I would be so screwed. You would have destroyed me, dude. You would have fucking destroyed me. I don't know how my mom did it. I'm sorry, mom. So anyway, because he kept hidden away from society, the lore about him became more mysterious and people began to fear him even more.

Why won't he come down? Why won't he go get help? Why won't he like appear in front of us? Like why is he just hiding in the woods? And then it became this thing where there's this creepy man that you know, just by the way is just like going through it like is probably has a whole new load of insecurities about his appearance and the grid which adds to like the kind of mystique and like and like he's like gone through appearance. And he's off the grid, which adds to the mystique. And he's gone through a trauma where he's got no friends to talk to. He has probably not healed inward on this.

So he's just a recluse in the worst way. And it's just prime material for this town to go, we've got a creepy man in the woods. There's even a former cop named Sergeant Clasmer, who used to be part of Ojai PD, and he recalls getting reports all the time in the 60s about the Char Man. Oh!

I guess there was a hangout point there, literally called The Point, and teenagers would report always seeing quote, an awful looking creature who looked charred and burned to a crisp. And they said that they would see him in raggedy scorched clothes. He smelled like burned skin. This was near at the time it was called Shelf Road. And I think it's changed since but it became the spot. This was like the dead end time it was called Shelf Road, and I think it's changed since, but it became the spot,

this was like the dead end where he lived before he died. It became the spot where people often saw him. Eventually more people near this area would start calling the cops about this injured man all their kids were claiming to see, which that would be me now. I'm like, are you telling me you saw a burn victim who probably needed help?

Like I'm calling the police. Right, and you just screamed and ran away. I mean, yeah, exactly. It's like we should do something probably. Well, even more fucked up. There are some sources that say these people were actually seeing an injured man and their parents finally called for like the police to go find this injured man and they ended up finding an actual person and Not the char man who was struggling with his own condition to change his appearance but a different person in town dealing with that because Apparently there was a neighbor who kind of like kept away and didn't talk to a lot of people snow being knew who he was he had some visible skin cancer.

Oh. And he was out walking his dog, and a bunch of times, apparently, the cops would get called and they would just find him walking his dog at night. Oh, jeez. Oh, jeez. And he was also probably scared of people gawking at him, so he would only walk his dog at night, but it was near a bunch

of mean teenagers at the point, and so now he just has to constantly be reminded of his own situation. He can't even live his life, right. Yikes. Ugh, like usually I try to like bring comedy to this, but this is fucking rough, so. Welcome to my fucking world, baby.

I know, I hate it. It's rough times. But some thought he must be different than the Char Man because they were reporting seeing like a literal man fried to a crisp. He did not have a dog. He had fresh wounds everywhere. This guy just has like something going on in his on his face, not on his entire body. Right. And so people were like, oh, they're just two different people that are probably struggling in similar ways. And so the cop's explanation for it was that, like, oh, it's just another person in town.

Like, it's dark, maybe since you're teenagers hanging out in the middle of the night where you shouldn't be, maybe you're drinking. So like, it seems like more of an urban legend kind of thing to you. But like, you just keep reporting this random man trying to walk his dog. But they swore they were like, no, no, no, we keep seeing this other monster. And people started doubling down on the Charman legend

just so it would be more believable by saying, not only does he look a certain way, but instead of just stalking us from, or instead of just lurking around, now he's stalking people, he's chasing people. He would go- So he's becoming a villain now. Yes.

And it was because the actual villains, teenagers, were not being believed with their own fake story. And so they're like, no, we're gonna make it sound worse so you actually care. Ugh. Yeah. Yeah. So they would say there were nearby campsites

that he would stalk, and he would stare into people's tents. And God. New origins started to pick up. One of the stories that stuck about how the Char Man came to be was that during that fire, it wasn't his father who died, but his wife who was burned to death. Which like, if you've actually been in a fucking traumatic ass fire, like this is a horrible

like anyway, he thought he the story is that his wife burned to death, and he tried to save her. And so then a new part. So now a new part of the lore, if you're a cool teenager hanging out on the bridge by this road, the thing would be to go over to where his old house was and to yell help as if you're his wife. Stop! And hope that he'll come running after you thinking that you're his wife and he wants to save you. What?

Is this not like the saddest fucking- What's wrong fucking people? This is I mean, it's just cruel. It's just so cruel. It's so cruel. And so then they turn it into like this, like, bunny man bridge thing of like, oh, and you know, once you hear him running after you, you better run. Cause once he finds out that you're not his wife, he's going to be mad and he's

going to chase you down and attack you. So it's like, no matter what. Like, so you're just going to lure someone in based on their trauma and then you have the nerve to run when they get pissed off that you did it. Like why are you even doing this to begin with? I so this is infuriating really is what it is. Apparently when he realizes that you're not his wife, he will chase you down and hurt you, which honestly, I'd fucking do it too. If, same.

I don't blame him. One boy claimed that this happened and he narrowly escaped after the Char Man grabbed him by his jacket, but he like ran out of his jacket and kept moving and he survived. Oh my Lord. In the 1960s, the stories became so big

about the Char Man in town that cops had to do several in a row overnights by this bridge and by this old road to shoo away kids who were trying to get on the bridge to yell for help and pretend that they were his wife. Oh no, so this is like really out of control. Yeah, years later, a man ended up claiming to be the one that pulled the jacket off of the local boy at the bridge instead of it being like the Char Man and this boy escaped somehow because he said that he uh, he said that he and his friends knew the children were it's like he was like an older teenager and he was trying to get the younger teenagers

doing the not so cool thing of screaming for help. Right, he was a bad influence. He was like, if they're gonna look for the Char Man, I'm gonna dress up in a mask and be the Char Man and anytime someone comes up and like screams for help, I'm just gonna bull rush them and give them the story of their life. So- And scare the shit out of them, right?

Yes, so he claimed that he was that guy. However, the cops disputed that version. It was like they were like that guy's bragging for about something he didn't even do. Here's what really happened. Apparently at some point there was a guy walking nearby and he was not aware of the the lore in town. And he heard children literally crying for help on the bridge And so he came running to save them

But then the kids that were on the bridge actually heard the mysterious eerie footsteps running up with them running Yeah, they took off and he just kept running and running and running to try to like catch up to them and tried to grab one of them by the arm to be like, what's going on? And then the kid like ran out of the jacket and the guy gave up. Oh, so it's like, oh, are you okay? But like, he doesn't realize they're running from him now. Yeah. Oh my God. What a mess. Anyway, allegedly, sheriffs resolved the situation sometime in the 60s and considered it like a situation that wasn't a big deal anymore. But people still claim to see the Charmant today. Many reports have especially shown up. There's nearby stables in town. I

guess if there's a winery on Brothers and Sisters, there's like a bunch of stables. It feels like horseback riding and wine go together in Ojai. Yeah, I agree with like those pretty hills and stuff. Yeah. Yeah, I agree with like those pretty hills and stuff. Yeah, it adds up. Yeah. So a lot of people who either work at the stables or are visiting there will claim to see somebody out in the hills staring at them. Personally, I think maybe it's like another employee who has ridden the horse a little too far or something. And it's like just looking at how far he's got to get back on lurking. And so anyway, they all say that they see a person staring at them. And the stories kind of grew out of that again, that there's a creepy guy out by these stables.

And so people started calling the company before they went in for their their ride. Or like if they had a tour scheduled about like a horseback riding tour scheduled, they were calling in being like, we're hearing these weird things about like this guy, like is this even a safe place to go? So now the business is suffering. And even if it wasn't Char Man, some people thought like maybe there's just a random stalker

that is nearby. Creeper, yeah. Like should I leave my stuff at the stables when we go horseback riding or is someone gonna take my shit? Maybe there's just a random stalker that is nearby. Like, creeper. Yeah. Like, should I leave my stuff at the stables when we go horseback riding or is someone going to take my shit? And so these days he's thought of more as like a ghost than a real man, honestly, because now he would be dead or a really old man. So we're close.

Right, right, right. So I think at this point, Charman exists. It's turned into a ghost out of necessity. And the bridge that people see him on is now sometimes known by locals as the Charman Bridge. And apparently the new advice for this lore, the advice should be don't fucking do it. But the new advice is now that cars are a bigger thing.

I knew it. I was like, finally, you are a bigger thing. Honk honk. I knew it. I was like, finally you have a perfect prop. Finally. You can expense it now. You've used it as part of the show. Great. I can't, I'll do my paperwork on that later. Okay, great.

So now that cars were a bigger thing, or that everyone, I guess, has more access to one, people now suggest that instead of just walking up to the bridge and screaming for help, you drive your car that way, if you hear him running, you can out race him. Okay, you're like safer almost. But if he's still, because now that he's like a ghost, so maybe he's more like supernatural in some way, now some people say he can still out chase your car. Oh, he can just follow you home. Yikes.

Oh, yeah. I didn't even think about that. He could just follow you home. Or what they say is that if he catches up to your moving car, he will punch out the windows, grab you from your seat and skin you alive. Yikes. Oh, that's nice. What the fuck? Once he's a ghost, I guess anything's possible.

So some people- I guess so. You can really make the story your own. Wow, what a beautiful creative exercise for everybody. I know. So some have changed his appearance in stories. Some claim that he's not a char man anymore, but he's actually just fully engulfed in flames still on fire.

And if he catches you, then you will catch on fire. So that's a fun. Oh, God. Some also have changed his origin story again, that maybe he was in a fiery car crash. That's probably just as technology advanced. They just try to keep the story fresh. But so, or they also say maybe he was a firefighter who died in the brush fire, but there are no documented casualties on record of that fire, including Charman himself. So people say that Charman now even poses as a hitchhiker to get close to you. So whatever the new thing is to keep people scared is what they tell.

And I feel like they're just making him into this villain. Like he didn't wanna, he was just hiding from everyone. Now they're like, he wants to skin you alive. It's like, wait, since when? And the irony is like, if this guy was real and he was trying to hide from everybody, it was because he was probably so nervous about how people would treat him.

Like scared and ashamed, yeah. Like there's these ugly laws out there. And so maybe he was probably so nervous about how people would treat him. Like scared and ashamed, yeah. Like there's these ugly laws out there. And so maybe he was even thinking, I'm doing them a service. And then- Like I'm just gonna stay out of everyone's way, yeah. And now they're still down there being like, he's a literal fucking monster.

Like what? Like he's gonna get us. I mean, it sounds very, just like every other urban legend of like the witch down the road or like the Frankenstein's monster like they're hiding from us but we're gonna go after them anyway. I don't know. It feels it feels exactly like all those stories. Yeah. I shouldn't be surprised I guess. Yeah. So whatever the truth is maybe let's just not mock burn victims by pretending to be

their dead wife that they watch die in front of them. Yeah, yeah, I know that's super fun to do. Just in case that actually really does happen, you know. I know that's like a really fun activity guys. I know, I know how fun it is, but like, let's, can we not? Yeah, yeah, so that's where I want to give the PSA that although I was a teenager once, I understand that your, your brain is not fully developed and therefore you have not probably thought it through.

But in case someone likes to pretend that they're more advanced and they're edgier than everybody else, maybe you can pass this along to your fellow teenagers that this story only promotes the idea that people with disabilities and or if they're survivors of trauma, they are in subway monsters, despite having already gone through something you can't fathom So shut the fuck up. That's the PSA. That's beautiful. Shut the fuck up. Fun fact though the town has really

leaned into the Charman thing and so now they're in town is Charman hot sauce a Charman rock band and there is there was nearly at one point a burger stand called Char Man and Nearly Nearly nearly someone someone decided that they didn't want to do it probably because they realized it would be a fucked up thing to do But I get I get the word char for char grilled burgers. I see the play on words I'm not not blind to the play on words But yeah, I think they backed out and I am okay with that I see the play on words. I'm not blind to the play on words. But yeah, I think they backed out and I am okay with that.

And then the last fun fact is that Ohai actually does have several ghosts in the area, like actual ghosts, plus cryptids, including a pony-sized phantom dog and a 20-foot bat. And if you would like to go on a haunted tour of Ojai, they host ghost tours every now and then. I heard that they host ghost tours literally in a van, which just makes it extra awful to me, but.

Oh God, I'm like on horseback? No, in a van, the opposite of on horseback. Can you imagine Christine going to a bunch of wine tastings in Ojai and getting on a horse to hear about a 20 foot bat? Something so bad, to look for that fucking bat. It would not end well for anybody involved. Let's all be real. I think that's why they have a van.

I think they're like, these people are too fucked up. We're just gonna drive around. They're like Christine ruined it for everyone else. Yeah, I get it. I'm sorry about that. Anyway, that's Charmander. That's Charmander. And if you would like to be invested

in something similar, but not similar that you can totally love and not feel weird about, Charmander is a very special Pokemon, especially to proceed. That's right. I love Charmander. He's my favorite Pokemon. I always played Pokemon Red on my Game Boy, so that was always my go-to. Wow. I could not have even slightly envisioned what you'd be discussing today.

So thank you for the wonderful surprise. I'm excited to be done. It's kind of weird because you know, at least if you remember, you know what I'm going to talk about today. I'm so excited and excited and you know, whatever the most apropos way is. Of course, because a two parter is rough. I know, I know it cause I listened to a lot of podcasts and I get so upset and then I do it to people. So the cycle continues and I'm sorry, but it was just, we were at two and a half hours.

That never ends. Yeah, this is getting out of control. So we're gonna get back into it. We are talking about eight passengers, the story of the Frankie family, Ruby Frankie in particular. And if anybody missed the last part one, go listen to 375 because that is where I cover part one and it is crucial to the rest of the story. So let's jump right back into it. The last thing I told you guys is that this woman,

Jodie Hildebrandt, was providing marriage counseling for Ruby and Kevin, Ruby and her husband, Kevin. And she was also allegedly potentially providing counseling to Chad before he was sent away to that like teen wilderness camp. And now from the outside, it looked as though Kevin and Chad had both moved out separately and Jodie was now living with Ruby and the remaining four children.

And if you'll recall on the body cam footage, when they get to the house, it's not Ruby Frankie who opens the door, it's Jodie Hildebrandt. And so, yeah, so we can kind of gather now that she was living at the house with the children. So, Jodie is just fucking trash. All right, let's get into it. Ruby, I just don't know how else to say it.

She's just, it's just bad. It's just like a tornado of bad. So, as things sort of devolved, and I kind of briefly mentioned that Ruby had announced June of 2022 that she was leaving YouTube to begin on work to begin working on a new project with Jodie Hildebrandt. So she was actually leaving this like very lucrative YouTube channel to do her own thing and people were like what does that that even mean? Like, are you starting a new channel? Nobody quite understood what was going on until Ruby started featuring on Jodie's channel, which

was called Connections with an X in the middle. So cool. So cool. So it's connect XO-N with a capital X. Stupid. And Connections is an online therapy and life coaching program. And Jodie runs this thing, it's her channel, and Ruby starts getting heavily invested and involved. And suddenly it's as though Ruby and Jodie's personal and professional lives were like completely intermingled, completely intertwined. And as viewers are kind of watching this, they're like, where are the kids? Like, are they okay? Like Ruby's suddenly obsessed with this Jodie person and like, we don't see the kids anymore. And it came out later that Jodie had apparently completely

integrated herself into the Frankie marriage, like into Ruby and Kevin's marriage and would Literally go on dates with them like would be the wheel on all of their activities as a couple Are they like shali like is she queer? No, she's there mayor their More LDS there. She's their life coach and marital counselor, quote unquote. But she's just like, so involved. At the very least it implies,

yeah, at the very least it implies that like, her marriage is not doing well for them to need a life coach that often. Basically, so she basically gets a very, I don't know. It's kind of a mix. It's like, on the one hand, yeah, she joined, she met Ruby as her therapist, quote unquote. And I mean, she was a licensed therapist,

but her therapist and her life coach or whatever, but then also Ruby got really into connections as a business. And so suddenly it's like Ruby and Jodie are like BFFs and also Jodie's like suddenly part of the marriage. And it's almost like Ruby got so invested in this random person that she like brought her into the fold of her whole family life. But I mean, you're also right in that the marriage was falling apart because they had brought this lady in and she's suddenly like

at all of their dates and at dinner and staying at the, living at the house. Is Jodie cool with this? She's as invested as being up their ass as Ruby Franke is into it? Yes, she moved right on in. I mean, think about it. Ruby's this probably multimillionaire YouTube personality and Jodie's trying to get her channel off the ground

and suddenly this woman who has this huge clout and all these followers and all this money says like, come on, I want you to be like, it's almost like, like Jodie was a therapist. And Ruby said, I'll take you, I'll be your like patron. Like you can come be just our family therapist. Like we come live under our roof. We'll take you in and you're now like our dedicated Counselor, maybe maybe you answer this later, but knowing that abuse happens You know comes out in the story I would at some point if you can answer it does Was Jodie complicit from day one or did she feel?

Okay, so because I was wondering like did she did she feel like she you know is trying to get her channel off the ground she found someone with clouds and now she's kind of just like leaning into this but she's like not even no she's bad news she's she's bad news from day one like I didn't know if she like Ruby stuck in this no Ruby and Jodie like saw each other and we're like cool we can be the worst parts of ourselves. And we're like, Terrible therapist.

She's been disbarred, yes. She has lost, I think disbarred is for lawyers, but she has lost her license. Yes. Okay, cool. That's what I wanted to know. Thankfully. So yes, basically we find out later,

Jodie had completely integrated herself into the Frankie marriage before Kevin moved out, tagging along on their dates, et cetera. And eventually, Kevin does move out and Jodie stays in the house. So it's like, Kevin leaves and now she's almost like the replacement parent, the replacement grownup. Her license had already been put on probation once because a patient had reported her for violating privacy ethics. She was a therapist heavily involved in the Mormon church and she was counseling this man and she had apparently turned around and shared a confidential sensitive information about this man to the Mormon church.

And he was actually expelled from Brigham Young University because she shared this information. And according to this patient, the information wasn't even true. It was a lie. She apparently was accused of lying about many of her patients. She would hold these group therapy sessions as part of her marriage counseling practice. And she would separate. So this will as part of her marriage counseling practice and she would separate, so this will also probably answer your question

a little bit. She would separate the man and woman and to be clear, this is like in the Eldiest Church. So there's a very heterosexual oriented therapy, you know, angles that she's taking. So she would separate men and women and then she would turn around and tell the other partner like, oh, your husband admitted to watching, having a sex addiction and watching

porn. Like she would make stuff up to kind of sow seeds of discord in a marriage. And she broke up many relationships. She lied about people. It was like she's just this toxic leech. I don't even know the right word for it. But she would shame people in front of their peers according to the men. And she like really went after the men. One of them, for example, admitted he had one time looked at porn, which was like not allowed in the Mormon church. And so she accused him of having a sex addiction and being a pedophile, even though like there was no pedophilia involved in this porn or anything.

And so she really knew how to blow up people's lives. And she would turn around and tell them Mormon church. And then these people would be like, these men would be excommunicated from the church and be expelled from the school because she would say, oh, he has a sex addiction. And it's like, the one guy I'm referencing came out on that. Um, I believe it was a 2020 documentary and essentially said, I told her like

one or two private things. And I mean, it wasn't even anything quote unquote that bad, right? It was like, he one time was interested by porn or something. And of course, you know, that didn't go over well. And so it blew up his whole life because she turned around and told his university, he told the church, his wife left him. And essentially her former patients

had already gotten her temporarily put on probation, so to speak, and she got it back eventually. And despite the fact that her former patients said that they were not only like losing marriages and relationships, but also traumatized by this because she's going around like blabbing. Like imagine what your, if your therapist just went around and told everybody in your life what you said, you know, it's just like, it's such a shocking concept. Well, she would just say that I have a bunch of mugs, but. Honestly, I love that you're getting ahead of the downfall. Like, you're like, yeah, you're like,

I know what's gonna happen, I don't need PR, I'm gonna get ahead of this thing. You know what's wild is like. And tell everyone before she can. Honestly, with Jordan, I feel like I, sometimes I'm like, I mean, she's very helpful. This is me like making like a bit of a joke about it. But like, sometimes I'm like,

why do I even have private paid sessions? You could just listen to the podcast and everything you know is right there for free. Like, cause I'm like, I don't have anything I'm like really pouring my guts out on that I haven't like just said very openly on this show. So I'm like, can you just send me back, can you just send me back a report based on what you saw

in each of these episodes? Honestly, anybody listening who is a therapist, I feel like you probably could and maybe have kind of diagnosed and assessed what's going on here. Like, I bet you, you could really, if you really listen to every single episode, you probably know more about me than I ever will, you know, as a therapist.

Like, I can't imagine. I do also wonder in the story that this does not have anything to do with it, but my brain won't stop thinking about it. Is there speculation on Jodie's sexuality? Oh sure, absolutely. Because she seems to be a real man hating, desperate to crawl up Ruby Frankie's little butt

and just live there. So... That's one million bajillion percent. Sounds like she's pretty repressed. Okay, just checking. Repressed is a great word, especially considering the construct of the Mormon church under which, inside which, she operates,

allegedly to try and help people save their marriages. And, hmm, weird. Doesn't do that. So, yes, you're absolutely right. That is massive speculation people discuss. Not massive speculation, but it's a massive plot point. Not plot point even. I don't know the right word, but it is definitely something.

It's a speculation and a plot point for me, for sure, in my head. Correct, yes. You sound pretty single for someone who was telling everyone how to have a relationship and also you hate how to be a heterosexual. Yes, precisely. There's a lot of, there's been a lot of kind of side eye like, does anyone else think what I'm thinking? You know, and we'll even get more into the sexuality of it in a little bit, which is interesting. So she had these like traumatized patients in her past who had eventually,

who had temporarily gotten her license suspended. But now she is running her channel and she has full ownership of this channel. And she can kind of do whatever kind of life coaching she wants. She's not under the rules of therapy and laws and the, you know, psychological association. So she has her own channel with her own rules and suddenly Ruby Frankie is there to like help monetize it. Like basically pay her, like patronize her to get this thing moving. And it got to the point that Ruby actually left her home in Springville with Jodie and her two youngest children

to move to this house in Ivins that we discussed early on in the story where the young boy starts running from door to door looking for help. And so this situation got out of control very fast. She moves with Jodie and the two youngest to live four hours south in Ivins. She leaves the two teenage daughters alone at the house in Springville and just leaves them there. And it probably would have gone on like this for years if that second youngest Frankie child who was around 12 at the time rang that doorbell in August of 2023. And of course, once they learned that there is another child in danger, definitely potentially deceased in the home

because of just looking at how badly this child in front of them has been abused, they do an emergency search of Jodie's home. And when they burst in and Jodie says, you need a warrant. And they're like, no ma'am, we sure don't. Get out of the fucking way. They start looking.

And at first they don't see anything until they look into a closet in one of the bedrooms and find a 10 year old girl who is in there alone. She is too afraid to move or speak. She's completely frozen. And just like her older brother, she's emaciated, she's wounded, her head has been shaved into a buzz cut. She's fucking 10 years old. She's like the baby of the family. So first responders cannot get her to kind of trust them or talk to them. They buy her pizza, they're trying to win her trust over

and convince her that she's safe now, but she's been so badly traumatized that she just stays in the closet. They give her the pizza, she eats the entire large pizza herself, then they get her a second pizza and she eats half of the entire large second pizza. Oh, girl was hungry.

I know it's fucking tragic. And then they give her a milkshake and she finally after several hours of like building, it's like a wounded animal, right? Like they're just trying to get coax her out and convince her that they're not going to harm her. And so after four hours, she's finally willing to get up, leave the closet, and be evaluated by EMTs. And I just imagine it's like the detective or the officers there who are trying to, like, coax her out.

And some of them had kids of their own, and they're like, it was just the most surreal, heartbreaking, you know, trying to tell this girl she's safe and she just doesn't trust anyone. Why should she, you know? So she's finally convinced to get out of the closet and come be evaluated medically. And investigators then receive, because now they found the other child, they now receive a warrant to begin collecting other evidence

throughout the house. And as they're looking, thank God, yeah. So they're looking through before any, you know, any of the adults can hide anything. And so they find ropes, they find handcuffs, a black pair and a silver pair, which the 12 year old boy had described as what they were being held captive in. And just to like, if anyone's wondering, in the 2020 documentary, the mind, because they're children, they're referred to by their first initials, which are R and E. And so I'm just gonna continue doing that

to keep their privacy somewhat intact, you know? So during the search, Ruby arrives at the house. She was not at the house when police initially got there. And she was made to sit and wait while this search continues for hours. She had to know she was so fucked. Like, or did she think she was made to sit and wait while this search continues for hours. She had to know she was so fucked. Like did she think she was getting away with this? Right, like at that moment they're like sit down and she just has to sit there and watch

as they like tear apart her house and find everything exactly that she knows is going to land her in deep shit. And meanwhile three and a half hours, her two teenage daughters are located. They're also minors. So it's like, like she's just abandoning these two up there. And their older sister Sherry, who I had mentioned the oldest, the eldest who's at BYU is able to tell police like, go check on my sisters. They're at the other house in Springville.

And luckily when police arrived there, the girls seemed unharmed. But because they were minors, Child Protective Services took them into custody pending the investigation of their younger siblings condition. That afternoon, both Ruby and Jodie were arrested and Ruby was strangely stoic, like very quiet. While police searched the house, she just sat in complete silence. She never asked where her children were. She never asked if they were safe. She said nothing.

She was just complete utter silence. She knew she was, again, she had to know she was so fucked. She was like, there's nothing to say. There's nothing I can do. Part of me is surprised because I feel like someone like that would try their darndest to talk their way out of it. So what you're saying is right.

She must have really known she was fucked because she didn't say a damn word. I imagine she's tried to talk her way out of everything left and right for years and now she knows she can't say anything. It's disturbing. And meanwhile, are the boy, 12 year old boy, is in the hospital and he starts telling caseworkers and police about the horrific abuse he had faced. Very disturbing. He said Jodie and Ruby had been inflicting this abuse on the children for a long time. He was often made, for example, to jump outside on a trampoline for hours a day in the hot burning sun as punishment. On his last birthday, his 12th birthday, he was forced to stand out in the desert sun for 12 hours on the

trampoline to stand there. Oh my God. As punishment. And by the way, like, I mean, I mean, this is such a small thing. They're not even, it's a non considerate at this point, but like to stand on a trampoline and not solid ground is even so much more like, like your legs get shaky and like, that's true. That's like, I mean, yes, heat, and yes, it's his birthday,

and yes, I'm sure he's barefoot and it's extra painful, but on top of it, think about wobbly legs after 12 hours of trying to keep your balance on fabric. Like, yeesh. 100%. And going off that, he was sweating so much on the trampoline that there was a discoloration of sweat where he had stood for 12 hours. And investigators actually collected the trampoline surface as evidence because it was just

that obvious how horrific this had been. Sometimes he was forced to collect trash at a cemetery with no shoes on. And again, they're out in the desert. These days are so hot that he would come home, just his feet were completely blistered. His shoulders would be completely, the skin would be completely blistered. It was so unusual that a passerby actually once took a video of him because they were like, what is this little boy out here with no shoes on,

you know, in the cemetery? It's way too hot for him to be alone out here. And, um, thankfully, they were able to get their, police were able to get their hands on that video as well, as evidence. Good. Uh, R was also forced to sleep outside. So, Ruby told him he had to repent for his sins.

That's why he was forced to sleep outside. And she said, otherwise, you'd be sent to jail for being so evil or what have you. You know, she's like he was forced to sleep outside. And she said, otherwise you'd be sent to jail for being so evil or what have you. She's like putting this fear in him. And one night, R decided I'd rather be in jail instead of, you know, rather than here. Yeah. So he decides he's gonna walk there, walk there himself.

And because he's already sleeping outside, he just got up and walked away. And he wrote a note to his mom in pebbles to tell her where he had gone. Went to jail. Walked myself to the local jail. It's so sad. And when Ruby noticed him missing in the middle of the night, because she kept tabs on the kids that closely, she and Jodie drove out and found him walking alone down the road. And because of this incident, she and Jodi began handcuffing him inside

to to exercise weights, like heavy dumbbells and other objects to prevent him from escaping the house. And also like how like it just reminds you that there is like an innocent child in there because he was like, I can't stand this abuse anymore, I'm escaping. And then still wrote a letter to his mom. Told his mom where he was going. Like, had he not done that, he might've gotten away longer or something,

but like he still just wanted to tell his mom. That was my first thought as well, is like to not even consider lying to your mom about it, you know? It's just, it's really heartbreaking. So Ruby and Jodie ran a horrible campaign of dehumanization on these children. They shaved E's head as punishment, they doused her in water, both children were watched closely while they took showers. Investigators discovered a journal in the house

in which Ruby chronicled all the abuse and psychological torment she and Jodie were inflicting on the children. And she wrote all this down, not because she like knew it was evil, but because she truly believed that R and E, her youngest kids, had demons inside them. It's almost like one of these cults you see where parents start being convinced that their partner, that their children have demons and devils inside them. I feel like we've seen this in recent years quite a bit.

And so apparently in the journal, Ruby said that she and Jodie believed R and E were both evil. They were liars and manipulators. They needed to be punished in order to be saved. For example, Ruby wrote, quote, I told R that he emulates a snake. He slithers and sneaks around. I mean, this is a 12 year old boy, you know?

It's just heartbreaking. In addition to the psychological torment, there was, of course, there were signs of physical torture on the children as well. They had deep, deep wounds on their arms and legs from being bound. They had clearly been consistently deprived of food and water, especially as we saw with E and the pizzas.

Kevin Frankie, the dad, was brought in for questioning, and when investigators described the condition of his children, he said, oh, that sounds terrible. What? Jail. On the comment alone, on the comment alone, go away forever.

Jail. Are you kidding me? But he also said, but I love and trust Ruby, and I would not want to say anything that might incriminate her. It's like, you learn that your ex-partner is physically tormenting your own children, and you're like, I trust that she knows what's best.

This does not justify any of it, but I am wondering, is he also a victim of her abuse, and he's just used to silencing everything or trying to just ignore it? I don't know. I don't know. Just trying to figure out his motive. I mean, when we look back at all the years,

he and Ruby were a team. Taking the bed away from the kids, sending them to wilderness camp. They all did this together, so he's been part of it for many years. It's escalated incredibly, obviously. But it sounds like he's not that shocked. Yeah, I can't imagine seeing it and going,

oh, how about that? What? Like that's fucking crazy. Isn't that wild? So then that makes me also think that he was not a victim. I mean, cause it could be either, either he is too afraid to say something or it's like so typical Tuesday for him

that he is like, this isn't a problem. I think it's just normalized in their family. I mean, of course he's like, wow, that's too bad. I'm so sorry that that happened, but I trust Ruby and I think she knows what's best. So obviously you're not that sorry for what happened. Mm-hmm. Because Ruby was arrested,

of course this became national news very quickly due to her fame, due to her notoriety, her channel's notoriety. And it was the moment thousands of strangers, including myself included, had been waiting for this moment for years. But nothing that any of these onlookers felt could compare to what Sherry, the eldest daughter felt, because she posted to her Instagram story, quote, finally. She was so relieved. And listen, she was a victim of the abuse as well, you know,

and she was like, I've been trying to get, take them down for years. She said she, alongside her extended family, had been trying to make this happen, had been trying to make this happen, had been trying to get legal attention, you know, police to the house and nothing she did worked. Finally, finally, she had a little bit of justice. And right after that post, she also requested privacy and respect for her youngest siblings. And, you know, in addition to Jodie's arrest making headlines, it also brought to light new allegations of abuse

in Jodie's previous life. So this is kind of where we get to more of the. Messiness of Jodie and like her history. Great. So let's go. Yes. So this one young person named Jesse, who uses they, them pronouns. Thank you for normalizing pronouns, Jesse, who was a third, or who is not 30 years old anymore. I'm assuming 31, 32, 30 year old tattoo artist and musician from Seattle came forward to tell their story once Jodie had been arrested.

So Jesse had grown up in California with three siblings and their family was part of the Mormon church, just like the Frankie children. And in an interview, Jesse described themselves as a teenager with words like devout, but curious, angry and angsty, you know? And I think a lot of us can relate to that, just like that angsty feeling of like feeling confined,

especially with like organized religion and you know, trying to find your identity and feeling like you're being boxed in. And their teenage rebellion was fairly run of the mill. Like there wasn't anything out of control compared to like an average teenager, but you know, they're in this very strict faith. And so anything that went against the grain was just unacceptable. And the Mormon faith demanded that children are obedient. So in 2009, when Jesse was 15, they were visiting their grandparents in Utah with the rest of the family.

And they got into an argument with their mother over doing the dishes and went to bed. When they woke up, and went to bed. Okay. When they woke up, their parents had left with their three siblings and had left Jessie there. Oh. Jessie had been left behind at this home in Utah with their aunt, Jodie Hildebrandt. Oh, God.

Yes. So Jodie Hildebrandt, wow, lucky Jessie was Jessie's aunt. Yikes. And the parents basically said, we left you there so that you could learn a thing or two from your therapist aunt who's gonna fix you, you know, and teach you the errors of your rebellious ways. Which like they had to know what type of person she was kind of like why would you leave your

child with her? You would think so. It's your sister. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And basically much of the abuse that we see with Ruby Frankie's children was an echo of what Jesse had previously experienced also at Jodie's hands. So for example, Jodie forced Jesse to kneel on the floor for hours begging for God's forgiveness. Jesse had to sleep outside in the snow.

They weren't allowed to use tampons because Jodie accused Jesse of using them to masturbate. Jesse often had to wear duct tape over their mouth because Jodie accused Jesse of being a liar and master manipulator, and this was some sort of symbolic punishment. At public gatherings, Jesse was told that they had to be quiet and could not speak to anyone because they were a liar, and Jodie wouldn't tolerate them spreading their lies. If someone addressed them directly, Jesse was supposed to remain completely silent

as if they'd never been spoken to. What in the fuck? Oh my God. And it's so bizarre. They said later, I experienced being told I shouldn't be around other people, being told that I was dangerous to be around. And Jodie continued to keep Jesse so isolated

that they stopped going to school. They just were completely kept like sheltered in this home. And Jodie's colleague meanwhile noticed that Jesse would often be left alone in a room just by themselves for 12 hours a day while Jodie worked. Just sort of like lock Jesse away in a room and leave them there instead of school, instead of doing anything productive.

It's moments like this where I'm like, in an episode of Snapped, I'm like, I fucking get it. Like do whatever you gotta do. I know, I know. Some people deserve to snap. I don't know what to tell you. Some people are just pushed and pushed and pushed and pushed.

And so when this colleague asked Jodie, like what is going on with this Jessie child that you have kept away in this room for 12 hours a day, Jodie would become agitated and said, don't talk to Jessie. And so the colleague knew something was wrong. So one day his colleague wordlessly left a warm coat hanging up for Jessie in the office as like a little gift to say, you know, stay strong. And this was the signal that

Jessie didn't know they needed. They took the coat and they fucking ran, like ran away from this whole situation. And they had been with Jodie for a year and had begun to suffer suicidal ideation, thoughts of self-harm, and reaching, like you said, a breaking point, a snapping point. And thank God, made it out before anything, you know, became even more escalated. So at the time, they were 15, so this was like the year between 15, 16. So it's like, it's such a, uh, I mean, I'm just armchair expert in here, but I feel like when the abuse like that starts from zero to a hundred at 15, when you know what life is like without this, like you were so much quicker to be like, this is not what fucking happens here. That's so true. It's like, you're like, wait a minute, like this doesn't quicker to be like, this is not what fucking happens here. That's so true.

It's like, you're like, wait a minute. Like this doesn't have to be, you know, yeah. Like those poor little kids. And also like those little kids are like, you know, so much more vulnerable and so much more- So much more dependent on a grownup. And like they've never known another life.

And so, but like to do it, just it's almost like really bolds of Jodie to have started on a 15 year olds who could have like, you know, voiced an opinion that the little kids wouldn't have or something like that. Like it was fully agree. You know what I mean? Not saying I absolutely the 15 year old, not saying one's better or worse, but it's just like, or should have defended themselves or should have left earlier.

But like it's, it's, I would have thought you'd start with someone more vulnerable and like physically weaker or something just to like test the waters before you just go to a 15 year old who like knows a life outside of you. You know, it's so. Yeah, it's almost like Jodie just had no grasp of the logic there or like the lack of logic.

Just thought this is, I'm doing the best for this. Or I don't even know if Jodie thought she was doing the best I think she just I also wonder in the head. This is I Mean we it's fully speculation, but I wonder if if the speculation about Jodie is true about her sexuality I wonder if she could maybe sent something in Jesse that there was like a jealousy or something. So there's almost, I think you're onto something because if you listen to the full interview, Jesse does talk about like how they were already struggling, not struggling necessarily, but a little bit because of just the confines of being in like a strict organized religion. But trying to find their identity, trying to figure out their sexuality was saying that

even then when they were, you know, identifying by different pronouns, by different identity, they were even saying back then, they were like completely out of their element with anything sexual, like they were not promiscuous, they were not experimenting, like they were like, I just was kind of cranky about doing the dishes sometimes, that's about as bad as it got,

but now Jodie is suddenly accusing them of being this like perverted sick person, you know, and saying like, you can't even use hygiene products for your menstruation products because you are going to use them to like your evil sexual desires. And so it's clearly there had in my humble armchair, ignorant opinion, seems like Jodie's projecting a little bit. Like, because Jesse says, I didn't even know what she was talking about. Like I've never had any sort of weird sexual like perversion in me or anything. And it's suddenly they're being accused of being like this sick creature with all these sexual impulses and it was all made up. So there's something there.

There's something there that Jodie's like catching on. Yeah, so maybe it was like a justification of like, oh no, I'm saving, I'm saving Jessie or something. Yeah, yes, yes. And a lot of it was kind of angled as like, you'll thank me later, I'm saving you, you know? Yuck. And very sick, very twisted.

So eventually, like I said, Jessie gets a sign from the colleague of this coat, takes it and runs. And at the police station, Jessie requested to be referred to a safe house and they moved into a homeless shelter and left Jodie behind. But now, years later, here Jodie is again suddenly in the news and Jesse feels like

they have to tell their story because they're finding out Jodie has gone on to do this to other children and even younger children and even more sinister. The survivor guilt. Yeah, there's probably that element of I gotta get in there and say my piece and make sure that Jodie is like, gets the full extent of what needs to happen. Imagine you're Jesse and you see Jodie all of a sudden show up on the news and you're just like, ugh, what the fuck did she do now? I mean, like, I finally got this fucking bitch out of my life and now suddenly you're wrapped

up in it again. And so yeah, Jesse reached out to investigators because they felt like they kind of had to. And it's a really brave and great thing that they did because these stories suddenly backed up, gave so much more credence to these stories that a 10 and 12 year old are telling. And Jesse's like, no, the same thing happened to me. And so, you know, even though this hasn't been shared with the public yet, the fact that Jesse is saying, this is what happened to me, this is what happened to me.

And the police are like, okay, well, you're saying a lot of things that has happened to these children, you wouldn't know that from the news. So there's clearly something here. You know, this is clearly true what's going on. So based on statements from these survivors, physical evidence, Ruby's own journal admissions, there was enough evidence to bring multiple charges

against Ruby and Jodie. And apparently these two bozos also continuously made incriminating phone calls from jail while they awaited trial without bail. Like how stupid can you be? You already got your journal taken away where you detailed everything explicitly. They're so used to publicizing all content.

I guess that's true. That's a great point. They're like always on camera. That's such a good point. Em, I hadn't even thought of that. So yeah, Jodie gets on one phone call and says, oh, so now it's abuse to make a kid sleep on the floor? You can't even raise your kids anymore.

What the fuck? Bitch what? Also, like bitch, you're being your kid. It's not even your kid. Stop saying you're raising your kid. That's not your kid. Go, like, what is wrong with you? I love when Christine starts going, bitch this and bitch that.

I love when Christine... I don't even ever say it. It's just like sometimes I'm like... But it feels right. I'm like, can you just speak up, Jodie, and say that again for my benefit? You know... Because I think I misunderstood you. I've been going through a phase where I'm bitching this and that a little more often, and I'm loving it.

And to hear it from another person feels really good. That's, I think Renee started doing it too. And I just like latched on. I just really like it. Like, bitch, what? For a while I was like anti saying bitch, because while I was on my own gender journey, I was like, until I figure out what's going on,

maybe I shouldn't use a word that's been used against women. And then it was like journey. I was like, until I figure out what's going on, maybe I shouldn't use a word that's been used against women. And then I was like, once I felt like, like perfectly they, them, perfectly non-binary, I was like, I'm gonna reclaim this shit. And so now I've been bitching and bitching and bitching. And it really is such a good emphasizing. And right now, hearing you say it,

I was like, oh, I've made a good call bringing that back. So. I was telling you and Eva, when I hurt myself, like if I stub my it, I was like, oh, I've made a good call bringing that back. I was telling you and Eva, when I hurt myself, if I stub my toe, I just go, bitch. And it really, it's the perfect combination of consonants to really just like, yeah, bring it home. I think as a queer, bitch is also non-binary. I think it's just a gender neutral term for like,

like there have been a few times you've done something good, bad or neutral and every time I've gone, bitch, what's going on? Bitch what? And I love it. It really does, it really does make me spin around and go, what? And you're like, you know what you did.

And I'm like, yes, I do. There's something very just like. I think I said it as you were careening us off a highway and I went, bitch, this is the last thing I'm gonna have to say. This is it I'm done. Precisely and honestly it was beautiful and I wouldn't have wanted it to go any other way. Anyway keep it up Christine I'm loving I'm loving this. Anyway bitch what say that again so Jodie's like oh what now it's abuse to make your kids

sleep on the floor you can't even first, first of all, again, not your kid. And like, yeah, yeah. What's the matter with you? So then, ding, ding, ding. And so in another, in a different phone call, Ruby was caught saying that it's difficult for adults to accept that children can be evil and that there are steps necessary to save them from this evil.

I mean, lunacy, pure lunacy. So finally, Kevin, the husband, the dad, did come forward and denounce Ruby, thankfully. He claimed that they had been separated since 2022 due to problems in their marriage, citing a quote, pornography addiction, which is interesting because that's kind of, that seemed to be Jodie's bread and butter of accusations. So I don't know how much of that is true. He claimed it, so I'm not gonna- He could have watched like a PG movie where Spider-Man kisses Mary Jane

and like he's just gonna rot in hell forever because it was porn. He is cursed to live out on the streets and face his own evil, yeah. That sounds right. So he said that Ruby and Jodie, so this is kind of goes back to what you said, had actually used the same psychological abuse tactics on him.

He said, every week was just hell. I can't describe to you what torture and hell it was to live an entire month believing that I was like evil. And so Kevin was legally ruled out as a suspect in the current abuse case, but former viewers argued that he was at least complicit in the many years of obvious abuse that the children were suffering while the YouTube channel was active.

But only, you know, we don't really know behind the scenes. As much of it, as much as most of it was on camera, a lot of it wasn't right so we don't know the truth only the kids know the truth of their dad's involvement um but he did seem for what it's worth to reconcile with the eldest two sherry and chad so you know it seems like they've at least somewhat patched up their relationship i can't imagine like i i'm not obviously like yes he was complicit in that's disgusting. I do sympathize for a second though about like if he really if he really was another victim in this

initially, yeah, and then they were trying to Fix their marriage and so then Ruby brings in someone just like her to justify all of her actions And like it's like he's just like now. It's just double. It's like, he thought he was gonna... You're almost being like edged out of your own life and family, like you're being just like bullied out and being called evil. And I mean, it sounds toxic as fuck. Hopefully his two older kids were like,

we were just all fighting to survive or something. I don't know. I don't know what the situation was. Yeah, that's a good point. I don't either, but you're know. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point I don't either but you're right. It is it is somewhat telling to me that at least he's reconciled with two of the kids I don't know what the situation is with the rest But we we do know that he did file for divorce and he began taking steps toward regaining custody of the four other children Kevin also filed to prevent Jodie from selling her home

to support herself because he is seeking financial restitution and support for the continued therapeutic treatment that his kids obviously need now after this fucking nonsense. And so in jail, awaiting trial, Ruby began to express regret. Aw.

Claiming that she had been influenced to abuse her children by Jodie. And she agreed to testify against Jodie at trial for a plea deal. So you can just imagine when Jodie heard about this. Oh, she probably, I mean her girlfriend that she, no, her girlfriend, quote unquote, redacted. Redacted. I do, I mean, from what I'm hearing, and I am absolutely not the YouTube sleuth on this, but it does sound like there was already for sure abuse. And I think when Ruby Frankie met Jodie, it's sounding like Jodie opened her eyes to a whole new world of abuse. So I think it, I think maybe Ruby Franke isn't totally lying,

but like, someone gave her permission to be even a worse version. It was like gasoline, gasoline to the fire. Yeah. Yeah. Ugh. I've looked into Jodie's, you know, alleged sexuality. People on Reddit have made claims and said, you know, they remember this and knew her from there. And, you know, there's nothing like super obvious,

but I will say like this article from The Mirror, the headline is, Child Abusers Ruby Franke and Jodie Hildebrandt in Sexual Relationship Niece Suggests. So, you know, there is definitely rumors, at least of romantic feelings between the two. And they called themselves, by the way, their Instagram was called moms of truth.

And it was all about like, yeah, like strict parenting. And yeah, Hildebrandt's niece, oh, this is Jessie, sorry. So that's not niece. I don't know why they're saying that. Nibbling or what's the word for like a- It's nibbling, but I don't know if anyone uses it. But by definition, it's nibbling.

Yeah, so I'm sorry. I didn't realize it was the same person. so that's fucked up, but held a branch cancelled nibbling cancelled mirror cancelled probably already cancelled Jesse apparently speculated speculated that the relationship might have been something more and that Jodie may be queer And speaking on something called Mormon stories. maybe a podcast, I'm not sure. Jessie said, I thought that since I was a kid that potentially Hildebrandt was queer. She did say something to me when I was living with her that was very strange because I've

known I was queer since I was seven. And apparently, Jessie continued, she knew about that and it was very, very bad and very evil. But then she said something to me. She said something to the effect of, yes, being gay is evil, pleasures of the flesh, yada yada. But if I were to have sexual relationships with my friends, it would be different because there's a deep emotional connection there and that's different. Gay. Gay. Gay. Gay. Gay. Gay. Gay. Gay. Gay. Gay. I don't have to speculate. I just know. Jessie says, we were sitting in someone's living room

and she said this and I was just like, what? That's called being gay. And then said, what do you think gay relationships are? Like they are emotional and deep and connective. That's literally just being in a relationship, being your gay. And this anyways, I'm sure Jodie would lose her goddamn mind, but still.

It's amazing what closeted people will say. And like they think that they're fucking pulling the wools over everyone. And it's like, Yeah, yikes. Like when a lot of, there's a lot of parents out there, I've seen on gay tech stock, obviously. And a lot of, like there's a lot of parents out there, I see, I'm on gay text talk obviously,

and a lot of people are like, my dad just said that like, yeah, he used to like just make out with his buddies, but it wasn't a big deal. It's like, dude, you're gay. Yeah, exactly. It's like, we've all been there. It's like, dad, no, you're having,

we're coming to a realization together right now. Well, even you when you were just like figuring out your own sexuality and you you said something about like It's like but everyone thinks about like hooking up with girls I still have to remind myself. I still have to remind myself that that's not true because in my mind I'm like, well, everyone feels away turns out just me and all my friends feel that way because we're all a little bit We're here. Oh, that's just normal which I'm sure you were already surrounded by you were surrounded by people where it was normalized So you wouldn't have known any better. So to everybody else I was just you know average, right? Yeah. Yeah It's funny how like how glass the closet is how see-through it is when? Sometimes even register registers to other people more than yourself.

It's a very bizarre feeling. But okay, so that answers the question then of like, oh, maybe Jodie sensed it in Jessie. Okay. So definitely to the sexuality thing, because Jessie has identified as queer since young, young childhood. So, you know, it's like... Jodie latched onto that, for sure. And to say like, oh, and you know, that is hearsay, whatever,

but like to say, if she really did say, oh, well, like having these cravings for people, like these gay feelings is evil. But like, if I had that for my friend, it wouldn't be evil. It's like, mm, girl. Bitch. Bitch, what? Bitch. You're gay, bitch.

Bitch, what? What's that TikTok sound? Oh, denial is a river in Egypt. You are gay, or something like that. I'm sorry. Oh, your husband is gay. Yeah. It, together.

Yeah. It's just like so, I mean, come on people, get it together. Like just because you're so fucked up and repressed, like don't take it out on children. You know, like, Jesus Christ, it's hard enough out there and now you're just turning on children. It's so sickening to me. Like, it's one thing to be messing with people's

relationships, marriages, obviously fucked up, but those are at least adults who can, at the end of the day, make their own choices. But this is next level. Which, by the way, I just can't understand. And there is a, I don't know what the name for them is, assholes, I guess, but there is a group of queer people, I'm sure it's in the same,

it's in the male realm as well, but in lesbianism or queerness, there are a group of people where their whole thing is to try to turn straight people, or to try to manipulate them into a relationship. And I feel like- Like I can trick them into it, yeah. And if Jodie's one thing, she's a manipulative bitch.

And so I feel like it would have been, if she's having this deep intimate relationship with Ruby Frankie, it wouldn't be against anything to maybe fall for her or hook up with her. And maybe Ruby Frankie also had these thoughts, I don't know, but it seems like- Who do? Who knows? I feel like I have,

I personally have zero doubt that they were hooking up. And I don't know what the context is there, but I think at least Jodie was in love with her. Just even the idea that she moved in and started calling them her children and started raising Ruby's children and- Well, like kicked her husband out. And then her husband's just business's children and then her husband out.

Kick the husband out, as their licensed marriage counselor? Come on. If this were a man and woman situation, we'd all be like, okay, well, they're clearly hooking up, right? Yes. It's beyond to say, oh no, they're just business partners. Like, mm-hmm, sure. Whatever you say. I have no doubt.

If it was wrong. They're just roommates. Yeah. If they were, if I'm wrong, I guess I'll never know. But I also know with sweeten-ty, I am not wrong. You're like, if I'm wrong, which I'm not, anyway. Don't even need to go there, because it would never happen. I'm right. It wouldn't be. There's no way I'm wrong. I like how you did say, if I'm wrong, which I'm not, anyway. Don't even need to go there, because it would never happen.

I'm right. I like how you did say if I'm wrong, and then you never finished the sentence. So you're like, but I'm not, so. Anyway. I know I'm not. So yeah, I'm curious if anything more comes out of that. I mean, again, in the Mormon faith,

that is not permitted, right? So I'm sure she's building all these structures around herself to convince herself it's different, she's different, like it's allowed if she does it a certain way, and then is just fucking projecting the shit onto queer children, any children, it doesn't matter. So Ruby turns on Jodie, which you know didn't end well.

And Ruby ended up pleading guilty to four counts of aggravated child abuse with a maximum sentence of 30 years and the other two charges were dismissed. This deal, this plea deal also dictated that prosecutors would not fight to extend her sentence if she did become a candidate for parole. However, it was a requirement

that the charges all carried prison sentences and the sentences would be served consecutively, not concurrently. So in a row, like consecutively, not at the same time. And when Jodi learned that Ruby would testify against her, she decided to plead guilty as well to the same four charges of aggravated child abuse because she didn't really have much room. And if she pleaded not guilty, she'd probably be buried because Ruby was now testifying against her. So investigators, thankfully at the very least, could breathe a sigh of relief that the survivors wouldn't have to be dragged through a long that the survivors wouldn't have to be dragged through a long re-traumatizing trial, you know, and these children didn't have to go back on record and be cross-examined by attorneys and all this.

And so there was a little bit of relief in that. And although Ruby did express some regret for her behavior at her sentencing hearing, Jodie didn't seem to take any accountability for her actions. Wow, what a surprise. All she did was wish for healing for the children. Oh, fuck off. Truly fuck off. Fuck yourself. Truly. Go fuck yourself with a tampon or whatever you accuse them. Like, come on. Seriously. Whatever. It's just evil. And she never acknowledged that the reason they needed to heal was because she fucking hurt them.

Right. You know? It's like, oh, I wish them the best because I fucking put them through the worst, you know? But we'll acknowledge that part. There are stories that are told where he would have these wounds, these like deep lacerations from being held captive. And Jodie would try and dress his wounds with like cayenne and honey and like try to like

try to like, I mean what the fuck? Like she's full outright abusing these children and she's like, I wish them only the best. I mean she's fully, I wish them only the best. I mean, she's fully, she's mentally ill, right? Like this isn't just like a religious thing. Like she's mentally ill. She's even, I mean, the fact that even the church was like, please stop, like you're not doing a good job.

You're hurting people, you know? It's like, well, then this is clearly a Jodi problem. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, she never, of of course acknowledged anything she had done. And let's see, fewer than two months ago, so February 20th of this year, 2024, Ruby and Jodie were both sentenced to serve four prison sentences consecutively, each one with a potential one to 15 year sentence. So that's quite a complex journey.

I don't know where it ends up. However, the one parameter is that she will not serve more than 30 years total. So the ultimate length of the sentence has not been determined yet. It will be determined by the Utah Board of Pardons and Parole. And so with that said, they could be,

if all of these sentences are just one year, right, they could be released on parole as early as August of 2027, which many people, including Jessi, feel would be an injustice. Especially because the kids would still be so young that they would probably go right back to her or like feel like they had some, I mean, not probably. I don't know.

It doesn't give anybody much time to heal without them in their lives. Especially when you're so young, yeah. Yeah, especially when you're so young. I feel like if you're older, at least you can experience life for three years without them and then be like, when they're back in the picture,

they can go fuck themselves. But when you're nine, I mean, I cannot at all compare my own childhood to this, but like, when you've got an abrasive figure in your life at the very least, you still, as an adult, feel some weird calling to try to mend that. And so like, I feel like- And it's your parent, exactly.

I feel like as a kid, like, I mean, I hope that they have strong guardians around them through that to be like, let's, I hope that they have strong guardians around them through that to be like, let's not, let's not, but not engage. Yeah. Yeah. But they might still be so young that they just want their mommy, you know? Well, and it's just like, how could you even blame them?

You know, like, it's like, so must be just so confusing and, and, and painful. And I will also say, like, if you're working on recovering and like trying to heal yourself, and then your abuser is suddenly out and about again, even if you're not engaging with them, there's still that now, like that sudden fear of like, well, they're gonna do this to someone else. Or yeah, am I safe?

Are other kids safe? And so it's like, you don't even get that freedom to like really process and heal without worrying that they're like running around somewhere. So, you know, I understand that like fear that, you know, but we'll see where there's no way to know yet. But Jesse, for what it's worth, believes that Jodie, if Jodie got out that early, she just turned right around and hurt somebody else. And I mean, with these patterns, I don't doubt that. There were also terrifying discoveries in Ruby's journal, some really upsetting ones

that investigators found that revealed that she and Jodie were apparently looking for land in Arizona, miles away from any other homes or inhabitants where their children would not have been able to escape or find help. Oh my God. And if anybody was doubting whether these people were monsters or not, I'll just read you this line that was written in Ruby's journal, which said, quote,

we will drop them like hot potatoes in the desert. Just trap them out there. And also, like, I don't... I'm just trying to think, like, in the fu... In that world's future, where they actually had their own lands and the kids were there, there's no one to even know that they've aged out of school. There's no one to know that they've aged out

where they should be able to go do their own thing. Because once the kids are 18, if nobody even knows that they've aged out where they should be able to go do their own thing. Because once the kids are 18, if nobody even knows that they're there, then Ruby and Jodie can just keep treating them like, there's no, oh, now I get to like escape and go to college. It's just- It's like this has been your whole life and you're still trapped there

and nobody can even find you. They could have kept them there through their 30s, 40s. Like could have just- Who knows? Kept them held captive fully. And then done video content and been like, oh, they're just, they're taking a gap year and then just kept coming up with excuses

for why they just stayed. It seemed like they just thought they had it all figured out. And it was very obvious from these journal entries that they just wanted to find like an abandoned area or like a very remote area where the kids would not be able to find any other grownups to help. And if they had made that move and R hadn't escaped out a window, by the way, he would

never have found help. He would never have been able to find someone on the ring doorbell to save you. And as far as investigators are concerned, if they had made that move, the children would have been killed eventually. Like they wouldn't have made it to their 30s. Like they would have probably, the abuse would have just escalated

until they were killed. That's what investigators believe. And so, you know, it was ours incredible bravery that saved him, saved his younger sister, saved probably both their lives at the end of the day. He told investigators that when he managed to escape his handcuffs and leave the house, his only motivation, I'm gonna cry,

his only motivation was hunger and thirst. Oh my God. He was not even like looking like logically for some, he was just driven by like instinct for food and water. Like how... Which like your body's fully shutting down if you are running on primal need for survival. If you're primarily only thinking food. That's probably when he said, can I have two favors?

And he said one favors the police. And then he's like, just do that part first. Yeah. But wow. But the first responders who met him and to the families who are caring for the children, he is everybody's hero. They're like, you did what you needed to do.

And that moment, like think about, ooh, I have chills again. Like think about that moment when your first house, nobody answers, second house, nobody answers. You're like, Jodie's gonna find out any minute I'm not in my room, and she's going to chase me down the street. Like, that fear must be so visceral and palpable if you're not getting answers.

Ooh, it just is so frightening. And imagine the poor trauma bonding of those two younger siblings who were just, they were all they had in that house. Just completely abandoned and left, yeah, yeah. Left as each other. And then the four other siblings are out of the house. They've only got each other. What would have even happened

if one of them died of malnutrition, which it sounds like within 24 hours, he was gonna drop dead. Basically sounds like they were on the way, yeah. Like what would have happened on YouTube? What would have been the video and like how do you explain? So they weren't doing videos anymore. They weren't doing videos about the kids at all.

Ruby was just with Jodie, which is why everybody was saying like, where are the kids? Are they okay? And they're like, we're not doing that anymore. We're doing connections. Which like she must have, I feel like part of her somewhere deep down

had to know that like, I mean like I am imagining the abuse had to escalate and now the kids were like visibly abused or like. Yeah, she couldn't put them on camera anymore. But also that goes to show like she knew what she was doing was fucked up. Like she didn't want people to see. And she, I guess the way she framed it to herself was,

oh, well they wouldn't understand because like, my kids have evil in them and I'm trying to save them, but nobody in the real world would understand, you know, and so I can't show them because they'll, because they'll stop me. And there you go. Yes, they did, thankfully. So Jesse, in an interview said, I hope the shocking nature of the story doesn't blind I hope the shocking nature of the story doesn't blind people to the commonality of the story. It's easy to distance ourselves from something that seems so shocking

and feel like it has nothing to do with you or your community. And interestingly enough, which is something I find deeply fascinating, we're finally starting to hear from the first generation of adults who grew up as a member of a family vlog or a family channel, like Sherry herself, who posted, like, I've been trying to get police involved

for years. And many of these now adults who grew up this way, expressed discomfort at having their entire lives shared online, like the first time they used a tampon, the first time they shaved their legs. I mean, what the fuck? Like, it's hard enough to be a kid, let alone like having creepy old men watching it and doing God knows what, you know? And it's just like you have no semblance of what's I imagine there's not there's just such a blurred line between reality and what's fake and what's acting and what's not acting and the privacy alone, just the lack of privacy must be so traumatizing. Be like, I don't have anything that's just mine.

You know, you're just on display. I feel like there's gonna be a whole new genre of therapy coming up of like, just for survivors of vlogs, of family vlogs. Because you're right, this is the first generation that's really gonna start speaking out. It's almost like you hear about child actors facing so many challenges, and now it's like,

even adults who did grow up in the public eye, who say they had a good experience, a positive experience, it's different than this. Because these kids, every monotonous moment was posted. It's not just like, oh, you're in a movie, and so you're famous for that, or youotonous moment was posted. It's not just like, oh, you're in a movie and so you're famous for that, or you were on a TV show. It's like, no, you were seen having your first period.

Every single thing about you has been plastered to the internet and people can find out any, there's no privacy. People can find out anything about you. Some parents say they get their children's consent before featuring them online, but then experts are like their children. Yeah, exactly.

That kind of makes the whole point, Moot. And so I struggle with this just with Leona. Like I've gotten people saying, you know, why would you put her online? And it's like, I really, like, I know there are people who don't put their children's faces online and sometimes I'm like, maybe I should be more, I don't know. I feel like at a certain point it's a personal choice until it becomes, I think it's just

a gray space, a gray area. Like how do you determine which kid is too online, which kids being exploited, which one's just being featured, which you know, I don't really know. Your kid is not too online. I guess people know her face if they look at the one of like five pictures you've posted, but, uh, yeah, yeah, I try not to, you know, just overly. I mean, I don't even overly post in general. So I'm like, I just, it's not as much, I hope of an issue, but then I think sometimes like, Oh,

she says so many funny things and I would love to put them on TikTok. But it's like, how far is too far with that? And I mean, then this is just me spiraling because I don't do this anyway. So I don't know if I'm concerned. No, I think about it. If I had a kid and they said something funny, I would want to put it on TikTok.

And then what if I had like a standup comedian kid? Like what if I just wanted to keep posting random things they said? Yeah, I mean, they're so funny. And like I follow some kids online that I think are just like, so hilarious and kind and funny and smart. And I love their videos, but they're kids. And I'm like, it's such a bizarre line. It's one of the,

it's one of those things too where like, the bad people ruin it for everybody because you gently mentioned it in the first episode of this and the first part of this, but there is a rampant problem currently with family vlogs posting content about their children. And there's like whole TikTok accounts that are just their whole purpose is to go find a family vlog and look at the followership

and see that like 80, 90% of them are old men looking at little- The predators. Yeah. And I follow those same accounts and they're so sobering. Like you see they pull these statistics and they're so jarring and sobering. These accounts also find sort of fake accounts where you can see them almost like leaving

messages to each other. There's this whole, I mean, like a full on sinister underground pedophilia situation that runs rampant with this. It's shocking, it's upsetting. Because I don't have a kid and because I'm not a predator, very often I'm not thinking about that space of life. But then the second that like, I think because I watch a lot of SVU,

my TikTok was like, okay, well you'll love this. And so now I'm just being- You'll get it, yeah. But like, so it's not just one to 10 accounts. It feels like almost every account that showcases little children, there is a problem with the people following that account. There is a chunk on every account.

There's a not small demographic of predators watching. And you can see this, you can get the statistics. This is not some sort of like conspiracy, you know? This is really wild. Would a 60 year old man or thousands of six year old men be just over and over watching a video of a girl having her period for the first time? Like why, why?

Or like in a bikini or like babies, babies first swim swimming. Buying her a bra for the bra shopping video was one of their most popular videos. And it had just millions upon millions of views. I'm like, who is watching these, this 12 year old get a bra? Like what the fuck is wrong with you?

Like this family thinking like, oh, well it's fine. And it's like, obviously at a certain point, you know how much of your channel is being funded by people who are predators. I mean, I don't know how else to say it. And I think it's really important to go back to what Jessie said, like, as much as it's so shocking and it feels like distant from you,

like it's very common and very rampant. It's not like some shadowy like tiny portion of the population. Like this is a huge problem. Like you were saying. You can see it. Well you said too about the older daughter, no just in general you were saying that like well now this is the first generation of kids from blogs coming out and talking. I imagine give it 10 more years and they're old enough to start passing laws that they're gonna- Yeah, they are, yes.

A lot of them are advocating for laws. That's a great point that you brought. I'm so glad you brought that up because there are now, actually, I think I actually have a bullet on it, but there are, actually, we're about to get there. So you are you are 100 percent on the mark with that. And I don't want to just try and quote it from my memory, because it's not going to go well.

So I'll read it to you in a minute. But anyway, so some parents like claim they get consent, but it's then it's a sticky thing of, well, you can't get consent. Their children and, you know, they need to be protected. Other people feel like it's no sticky thing of, well, you can't get consent, they're children, and they need to be protected. Other people feel like it's no different than a child actor, like an A-list actor who's even more famous, and it's like, sure, that's also a problem. I don't know, it's sticky, it's messy,

but laws are finally, like you alluded to, catching up. They're slowly catching up. One law in France created regulations on children being used in monetized content based on pre-existing child labor laws. So that was enacted. And then in the US, lawmakers are trying to establish laws requiring parents to deposit funds into trusts for their children among other protections, because the money alone has become a real point of contention with critics on, you know, you're saying like,

oh, they're just in the videos, but it's like you're making a whole career off of them. And then are there any protections legally? Are there financial protections in place? Where does the money go? Is there like a digital version of a Coogan account? And like, so is there... Yeah, yeah.

And like, if you're one of the eight passengers, like each of those kids should be set for life for like having to invest, putting all of their personal shit out there on the Internet. Child labor for many, many years. And it's like, nope. Instead, they were forced to sleep on the ground outside. So thankfully, I know that's an extreme case, of course.

And there's going to be some every step of the way on that spectrum. But, you know, among other protections, the lawmakers in the U.S. are trying to at least create some parameters of what needs to be saved for children, what needs to be the kind of funds that need to be put in a trust, that kind of thing. But of course, this is all still extremely controversial because like, it's such a nebulous thing, just online fame, you know, it's just such a new and nebulous thing. According to the most recent reports from the caretakers of the youngest Frankie children, I just want to cry every time I think about this,

10 and 12 year old, they were placed in foster care, but together. So they are remaining together, so that's good. And apparently, according to sources, are thriving, they're healthy, they're happy. They feel safe and loved. So I just hope with all my heart that that's true. It sounds like it is. Their caretakers have said they're doing so much better. Child and Family Services was not able to comment on the placement of the older

two children because of privacy concerns. I understand that fully. And essentially it's just everyone's hope is that the children can just get out and feel okay again, and be able to recover. Yeah. Normal as much as they can and live like full happy lives despite this like long standing trauma. So this is a story of the eight passengers,

the eight passengers channel, Ruby Franke and her fucking evil nonsense, Jodie Hildebrandt. It's just such a mess. But anyway, that's the story and that's all she wrote. But anyway, that's the story and that's all she wrote It's just one of those weird things that I've been following for so many years and I was one of those people when The I signed the petitions. I didn't really do much else because what else am I gonna do? But I watched the videos I signed the petitions and then when it came out she was being arrested

I was like finally but I didn't realize quite how bad it was. Like, I don't think anyone would shocking. No, no, it was like, it just escalated. And the fact I mean, people knew the fact that she stopped filming her kids, it's like, they were the big moneymakers, you know, like, I don't know, I don't know what she was thinking, but she went off the damn deep end. Hmm. Wow. Terrible. Well, but I follow Sherry, S-H-A-R-I, Sherry Frankie. And she has a she has an Instagram where she posts occasionally about this and about she she does podcasts and interviews and talks about her experiences.

And it's really very enlightening to hear her talk about it. She does podcasts and interviews and talks about her experiences and it's really very enlightening to hear her talk about it. Sure. She's very mature for being so young, you know, having to grow up so fast. Well, good job telling the story. It sounds like we both had some... Thank you. For once, what a bad thing, but we both had fucked up stories, usually minor.

Yeah, wow. Wow, welcome. Welcome to fucked up stories. Usually mine are. Yeah, wow. Wow, welcome. Welcome to the dark side. I know. I wasn't gonna say. Well, I forgot. You know, I think we really upgraded from earlier

when we had our bumpy start, and then we did the zoomie scream, and everything turned out pretty good for us. That helped. I kind of was rolling my eyes about that, but honestly, I think you were onto something. Sometimes you just gotta get silly, get silly. That's right.

And you're right, it was my sixth time getting silly today, but it really did wonders for me, so thank you. Are you getting silly at all later today? Are you gonna visit Wobbly Mountain with your wolf monkey? So tonight is Wobbly Mountain night. I'm watching Leona. Blaze is helping his friend who's setting up a new jujitsu gym and I'm like, good luck with that.

Then tomorrow night I'm going to a game night at my friend's house and Blaze is staying home to do Wobbly Mountain. Then Sunday I'm going to, I haven't even told you yet. Well, I did tell you briefly, but I'm going to a psychic convention here in Cincinnati. You did tell me. I'm very excited about it.

I keep being like, what? There's like all these talks about past lives. Well, hang on, we'll talk about it. We'll talk about it on Patreon. Oh, on the after hours. Great idea. After hours. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Great idea, great idea. Yeah, if you want to hear about Christine's future endeavors at Psychic Con, what's it called? Yeah, I don't know. All right. Wait, I have an idea. Can we change the name of After Hours? We can never get it right.

And what if we called it After Dark? Because it's like after the dark shit of our podcast, After Dark. Sure, you know what? And then in six months, we'll change it again. That sounds great. I can't wait. Okay, I know, but at least I podcast, After Dark. And that's what we drink after dark. And then in six months, we'll change it again. That sounds great. I can't wait. Okay, I know, but at least I can remember After Dark.

After Hours and After Chat never quite stuck. We'll see, maybe it won't stick at all. But I kinda like After. Now that we're moving it, you're only gonna call it After Hours. But yes. I know, but maybe eventually we'll finally land, maybe. Eventually we'll call it After the Episode.

That'll just be the name of it. Just, we're just not going to call it anything. Anyway, if you want to hear any more of our babbling, you can head over to Patreon where you can hear the rest of this conversation. You can also go find us online right now. We are not touring. I think we only have one more, we have one more city.

We have LA and that's it. And after that, we're taking a break. We also have two books, one you can order, one you can pre-order, A Haunted Road Atlas and A Haunted Road Atlas Next Stop. And also you could, if you're listening to us, you could also travel over to our YouTube. Don't watch your B. Frankie show, but you could watch ours.

And that's it. And that's it. That's why we drink.