And That's Why We Drink - E377 Carnival Cobblers and Time Traveling Text Messages

Episode Date: April 28, 2024

Welcome to episode 377, in which we try to communicate with Linda via dowsing rods so we can just get a yes or no answer! This week Em takes us into the realm of reincarnation with the story of the Pollock Twins aka the Hexham Rebirth. Then Christine covers the wild case of Terry Peder Rasmussen aka the Chameleon Killer. And can anyone out there teach us the official rules to Kick the Can? ...and that's why we drink!Don't miss out on the pre-order for our new book! Get yours today at bit.ly/hranextstop

Hello everyone, welcome to and that's why we drink, a paranormal true crime podcast. I'm Christine. I am having a good hair day, but I'm having a bad chin day because I got me a little blemish. How does one have a bad, oh, a blemish, I see. You know where I had a blemish the other day? I had a gigantic zit inside my ear. Oh, I've had them rough. Yeah, I almost went back and told the doctor

that I had pierced my eardrum again, and he was, my blaze was like, that's a pimple. Have you ever, this is so messed up. Have you ever gotten a zit in your ear and you heard it in fucking surround sound pop? Yeah. Oh yeah. That's crazy. I'm always amazed.

I'm even if it's gross, I'm like, that's just, it's kind of shocking. I knew I couldn't tell my mom cause she'd try to get her little gross little fingers in there. And I was like, don't touch me. I would also, if you ever need a zit on the road, I will absolutely get it for you. Oh my God, just took my own breath away thinking about it. We're sick. We're so sick. Hello, everyone.

We are here today to talk to you and about all the reasons that we drink. Right, Em? That's true. You are giving vibes like you want to drink a lot for some reason. Do you have something going on? I do. No, not really. I think it's just Monday. You think once you have a job where it's your own job that Mondays aren't like Mondays. I don't know. I think there's just a collective societal Monday energy that's seeping into my brain, you know? But it sounds like you're doing okay.

I mean, I hopped on and you were like, complimenting me left and right, and I was so taken aback. I think my therapist would say I was maybe fishing for somebody to give me a compliment back. Oh, well as you already know, you're fishing in the wrong spot. No, I'm kidding. You're OK.

To be fair, I cannot see your hair because your camera's a little blurry. But when you said you were having good hair day, I was like, oh, God, I got to take a look at Em's kickass hair. Let me put the spotlight on my hair. Look, she's just like, she's got some layers. She's like, she's got some curls perfectly placed. She's like, she's got some layers. She's like, she's- You've got some curls, perfectly placed. She's like, she's messy fun. Like I look like maybe I'm a bad boy,

but what you don't know is that I actually am a good boy. Yeah. Well, ish. Oh, okay. To the good part. I can't determine the rest, but the good part, mm, well I'll think about it. I feel like if someone saw me in a coffee shop,

they'd see my hair and go, they look like they know how to have a little fun. You know, like they know how to kick it. Yeah, you do know how to kick it. That is for sure, if there's one thing I know about you. But your hair does look great. I'm loving the tussled look that looks intentional, but not intentional, you know?

It's like, oh, your hair looks good because you take care of it, but not like because you obsess over intentional, you know, it's like is it hair looks good because you take care of it But not like because you obsess over it, you know, like did I take a nap or did I use product? We'll never know it's like or or was she born with it. Maybe it's Maybelline, you know, it could be like any of the above Thank you. I was telling Christine that I'm very Affection starved these days because Alison is just nowhere to be found. She's still kicking it with the piranhas or something and the Amazon. So, um, uh, I've noticed my compliments to others has heightened probably because I'm,

I'm desperate to feel something. I don't know. Your, uh, your, uh, terms of endearment to me toward me have increased. I've also noticed your high pitch squealing has increased when I'm around. I did say to Em, when did I become the replacement for or the stand-in for Allison? And Em responded, well, I think Allison's been the replacement or the stand-in for you. And I was like, oh my God, that's so deep. I mean, I've known you longer, so I guess by timeline standards, she is the stand-in.

And I would never let anybody forget it. I have a question. Why do you drink this week, my friend? Ugh. Darling friend. Oh, stop. I'm trying so hard. I know it's not natural for you.

I understand. No, it is. I just, it's not natural for you. I understand. No, it is. I just, it's not natural on a Monday. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, to be fair, usually I think I have a case of the Mondays as badly as you, but I, for some reason this weekend, I did a lot of work. I feel like I never actually had a weekend so that's in its own way a bad thing but it also means that today doesn't

feel like Monday it feels like a Friday or something so got it you're like oh got all this work behind me like I'm already like it's rock and roll it's hump day essentially for me I'm like we've already been doing this. So I'm in the kind of in the zone, but good for you. One of the reasons I just feel very overwhelmed at this damn cruise, which I saw coming from a mile away because anyone who has ever had to travel with their adult parents knows how it is. I, it's, I feel like, okay, so, I think this cruise only happened because I have reminisced

so many times with my mom about how much I missed, like, I was like a cruise kid. I, I know what that means these days. It's like not very friendly at all to the environment. But I remember it does have like some sort of nostalgia factor for me of like all the vacations we took and all the places we got to see because of it. And so I think I was just reminiscing with my mom a little too close to the sun. And she went, oh, well, we're going to do it again. And now I'm realizing in the thick of it that a cruise with her when I was a child and she was in charge of everything

and I wasn't really expected to do anything is a lot different than me as an adult having to deal with all of her like panicked over complicated texts about how things might be. Which is like what's the complex part like is it like planning activities is it like payment schedules like what's the part that's like overwhelming? My mom, I will say she has done a lot of things. She's done a lot of the planning on her own behind closed doors. So I really can't complain too much,

but the parts that have seeped into my text conversations with her are just like, I can't get a damn straight answer out of her. I mean, it's the same thing about like, if I were planning to like go to the park with her, it's the same thing. Like an example is it's just like upped by 10. So I texted her and I said, do you fly back the same day we get off the ship?

I was trying to figure out my own plans. I only asked that one question. Do you fly back the same day we get off the ship? She said a wall of text like, by the way, this could have been, this could have been a yes or no situation. That's my problem. Every text with her- You should just start speaking to her

with dowsing rods or a pendulum. So that really limits her vocabulary. Just like, yes, no questions only. You know what's so annoying is one day when she passes and I try to use dowsing rods, they just won't work because she'll want to send me things like this. This could be like dragging you try to use dowsing rods, they just won't work, because she'll want to send me things like this. It's gonna be like dragging you around with the dowsing rods, like trying to get you to do stuff.

So I think this has just brought out like a panicked version of her, because I, and I gotta say at the top of it, like she's, I think she's stretched too thin, because she's been doing a lot of this by herself, but also if she, I think the whole family understands that if they try to help her plan, then it's like too many cooks in the kitchen. So there's only so much we can do.

We just kind of have to watch herself get to this place. And now this is the aftermath of it. But so I said, do you fly back the same day as the, uh, as we land or as we get off the ship? And she said, remember your passport. The boat has to dress your best nights. It was called formal in the past. I'm telling Tom to bring a sport coat. I think they might have a Caribbean night.

I have, here it is, one fun dress, two baby doll afternoon or casual dress, two pair of flowing pants. She listed her every single thing she packed. Every- What, Why? She went, I brought two workout outfits and three pairs of shorts.

I brought three bathing suits and a cover-up. You, as M. Schultz, you do not wear flowy pants, capris, summer dresses, cocktail dresses. I don't understand why would she share that with you specifically when A, you didn't ask, but B, what are you supposed to do with that information, I guess, is what I wonder. Well, that's not even it, because then she talks about

how she packed a white and black windbreaker specifically. And then she said, we're gonna go out to dinner and I saw some live camera shots from people and it looks like a lot of people are casual after dinner. And then, like, and she did the thing where like there's multiple dots and random commas and she pressed enter two many times. Do I need to teach her about cruisecritic.com? Because these kind of conversations happen there

and there are people there who want to know what you're bringing to wear and they want to know what your schedule is and your itinerary and they will answer the most inane questions. So I should send her there. All you'd be saying is that there's more eyes for this information and not like... But at least they're not your eyes.

You know what I mean? No, no, it would just be more eyes. Like it'd be my eyes and other... So then she wants more comments. But to be fair, once she realizes that like they're really engaged and want to Yeah, you're right. Continue that conversation,

maybe she'll like drift toward that and be like, they're a better audience, you know? You know how parents will say like just a sprawl of sentences that are not strung together because she talks about the windbreaker. She brings up that there's live camera shots of people dressing casual, which yes, they're on fucking vacation.

And then she said, hang out very casual after dinner. Cruise ships normally have meetings for alcoholics. Okay, I don't fucking care about that. You don't even drink alcohol. This is what I'm saying. It just feels like, I understand if it were like, hey, just pack two nicer outfits.

I'm wearing a blazer. But like, or Tom's wearing a sport coat. That would be good information for you in case that's what you want to wear, but the rest of it is hysterical. Like, and then she tried to do the thing where she was like super ally, but then just kind of like put her nose in places that were like unnecessary.

Not in a bad way, but she, she listed the alcoholics group in case I needed to go there. And then she said, she then have had half of a sentence where she said, get togethers for singles and LGBTQ, which makes me think she was searching that. And it accidentally ended up here. Oh, absolutely. And then she said, not sure about bringing poncho. That's how it ends. She goes, alcoholics, LGBTQ, poncho.

Wait, so she never answered the question. Is that true? That's very true. So I'm just- She never answered the original question? No. And so- I love her. So I just stopped trying.

I was like, you know what? We're gonna, I'll find out later when you fly back. Did you respond to that text? I did. I said- What did you say? I said, it's amazing how quickly and abruptly we turn into our mothers because that's exactly the text she would have complained about her mom sending her 10 years ago.

Oh, I thought you meant you, but you mean Linda's turning into her mother. My whole life, my mom would be like, I just want a straight fucking answer. And she's just going to give me an itinerary of everything she ate today or everything she's wearing. Or anything she's packing. And everything she's packing. And then she did the exact same thing. And so I'm just now nervous for who I become. I can't wait for you to start texting me fucking paragraphs

about your wardrobe. I can't wait. I'm actually going to love it, I think. I, hmm. Anyway, so yeah, I'm just a little nervous because now it feels like I might be going on a cruise with my grandmother. And like, I gotta say, I think my mom is just very excited

about the trip and just, like, I get it, but at the same time I'm like, girl, like, how do you, like, the call is coming from inside the house, you are doing exactly what you hated. Like, and like, or she'll do the thing all the time where she calls me I think every person Sign kind of once a kid just so they can complain about their parents while they do the exact same thing their parents are doing and

Because she'll call me just to say oh Your grandmother she just won't get off the phone I tell her I have five minutes and she will give me an hour and a half and I'm not allowed to leave. And she does the exact same thing. She'll call me and go, and then and then you're like, well, I'm working. She's like, OK, anyway, I want to tell you about my caprice. I just like I feel like I'm in like a warp or something, like some sort of time suck

room. Like am I just is this just a big prank? So I, she recently, um, one of the things my grandma always does whenever we go to her house, first thing she does is she makes us take a tour of her clothes closet every time. Oh my God. Because every time she's organized it differently than the last time we were there. And so now we have to all see where she put her shoes and where she put the fancy dress and where she put the casual dress. And I just went home recently. And the first thing my mom did was come upstairs,

let me show you how I organized the closet. And I went, are you fucking kidding me? I was like, how is this normal? Very interesting, Linda. But as soon as I- This is the moment. What if she starts, instead of looking for Alcoholics Anonymous on the boat,

she's like, she just feels like she needs another crisis group because she's real, she's come, this is an intervention, you know? How are there not bigger groups of people just reconciling with the fact that they're turning into their parents, you know? I would love a group therapy about that. I think that's just anyone in a group.

Like any group probably can just also add that label. Anyway, I am excited to be on a cruise with her, but I am just like, it's like all of the similarities are coming at me all at once. Smacking you in the face, it sounds like. Yeah, which means now like I'm forced to take on the role of becoming her, where I get annoyed by all this stuff, just, then I have kids, I'm just gonna repress it all and just project it back onto them.

Well, I also know that, like, one of your favorite hobbies when you're really stressed is that you organize all your shoes into your fancy dress. And so, I feel like the stress is just gonna come out with a tour of your closet when I come to LA in a couple weeks. And honestly, it's okay. It's okay. When I do get stressed, I do like to organize, but it has not gone into my clothing yet.

So that'll be the first red flag. And then when I start telling people about it. That'll be what I know. Yeah, that's what I need to know. I'll know and I'll need to step in somehow. I don't know how yet, but I'll think about it and i'll plan it But I think you're gonna have a wonderful time you live in a couple days, right as as a recording I do I leave I leave we have one more recording after this and I leave after that

Okay, you're the third day. Okay Wednesday, okay Wow. Well, I think you're gonna have a great time I know we'll have a good time. I'm just kind of scared about also being with my mom for that long because we have like a rule on how much time we can spend together before like one of us is gonna kill the other.

And this is like triple that amount of time. So if I don't make it back, it's because I made one comment too many about her damn closet and I didn't make it. So you were forced to disembark in some island nation. I walked the plank, yeah. Yeah, you walked the plank. What about you? Why do you drink?

Oh, gosh. Well, you know, we're far enough in, I don't want to even go into my thing. I'm going to say it when we record in a couple of days. I don't want to talk for a million years. I don't know. Is it that lengthy? Well, it's about the psychic, okay, I'll just say it. I went to the psychic convention yesterday

and we talked about it. How was it? You have to talk about it. Okay, I think it was at the end. It's at least on brand for the podcast, so it's not like totally off the wall, but I went to the psychic convention with my really good friend, Celine, and my other

friend, but her sister, Sophia, and Celine's partner, Nick. And we did a little road trip up to the Spectacular, as the website called it, Sharonville Convention Center. And if you've missed this intel, by the way, folks, Em and I talked about it on an after hours, which I've been trying to name after dark, we'll see if it sticks, and Em helped me create an entire itinerary of all the events that were happening, right? On the different stages and all that. So it turns out we didn't really do many of the events,

like the actual stage talks, because they were like completely in a different part of the convention center. And there were hundreds of booths of like tarot readers and like psychics and aura photography. Like it was just like so much stuff that like, by the time you got through to a certain area, you were like, oh, I've missed the whole talk.

But there was one time we decided to go have a snack downstairs. It's really funny because when I told my mom I was going to the Sharonville Convention Center, she was like, to buy a gun? Because this is where they host all the gun shows, right? Like in Ohio, it's just like a big ass convention center in suburban Ohio. And so I was like, yes, mother, I'm going, but no, I'm going to a psychic fair. It's like the opposite end of the spectrum, I guess. And so I went up there and it was, so we were, they have this like cafe

and I assume this is not the name of it normally, but they called it the Mandala Cafe. And I'm like, I imagine when the NRA is hosting this, it's not called the Mandala Cafe, but that's what the sign said. It's called Bullseye Saloon or some shit. Sports room plus, yeah. No women ever allowed.

Meat only, yeah. It's no vegans allowed. I just, I can't imagine what that would be like. But we went and it was like kind of expensive. So we went downstairs and this little food court and this guy we're sitting there like eating a snack and this guy comes out and he's like, Hey, I'm about to give this presentation. If you want to like just pop in right here. And we had wanted to see something. And so I said, Okay, yeah, we'll pop in. And I said, Hey, I have this like reading booked for 330. So we're gonna

have to leave in about 20 minutes. And the guy's like, oh, that's fine. Why don't you just come in? We walk in. There's like one other person in the room. And it's like a big speaker stage thing. It's like picture where we did our first live show at CrimeCon, right? There's one person, one person there.

And so the three of us at this point, we all go sit down in the second row. And there's this guy in the corner who's with the speaker and he looks like security, but he's wearing all red. And we're like, this is weird. Why does this guy need security? So we're sitting there and like the presentation starts. And he says, the first is a picture of a pill bottle

and the first slide. And it says, all medications are basically poison. I have a picture of it. And I went, that's odd. And so, do you know where this is going? It's a slippery slope. It's a slippery slope, isn't it? In the woo woo world, isn't it?

But do you know where we're going like, at like the next big pit stop? I assume vaccines or healing hands or some shit. Is this chiropractic care? What? No. What? Nope.

What? No. Worse. Worse. What? I can't imagine. What is this? What?

Next slide. If you want to learn more about this, you should read L. Ron Hubbard's book, Clear Body, Clear Mind. We have it up at our booth upstairs." And we went, and Celine and I, growing up, Scientology was like our fucking obsession. We researched it pre-internet days. We were obsessed. We would call, we'd be like, what are you guys even doing there? We would take the personality quizzes. They'd been waiting this whole time to get you back. I know. We finally under one roof got to see one presentation and the guy goes,

Elrond Hubbard, our leader or our great prophet. And I'm like, you have got to be kidding me. So Selina and I are like doing that thing where we're like grabbing each other's legs or arms, just like, is this really happening? The Christine Klaw, I love her. The Christine Klaw, but there's only three Christine claw. I love her. The Christine claw. But there's only three of us.

Like there's four people in the audience and we're three of them. So he's like staring at us and we're like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. And then he goes, yeah, even Tylenol is poison for your body. It's just like so inane. Right. And he goes, I bet you guys won't get this question right. Do you think too much oxygen can kill you? Raise your hand. And we were like, I mean, yeah.

And he goes, well, it is true. And we were like, I know, that's why we raise our hand, you weirdo. Like, of course you can die from too, like, I don't understand your argument that too much Tylenol can kill you. So just like oxygen? So at this point where you just like cancel my plans,

we just, I just have to experience all of this? Or were you like, how the fuck do I get out of here? We were like, we're leaving, this is insane. And also like so boring. Like it wasn't even like funny or fun. Like it wasn't even enjoyable in that way, like in an ironic way. And so as we were getting up to leave,

we were like, okay, thank you, bye, and like ran away, but he knew we were leaving already. And then we get out there and Nick goes, did you see that guy in the red in the corner? And I was like, yeah. And he's like, you didn't see his shirt? And I said, no, apparently he was wearing like Dianetic security on his shirt and hat.

And was like, this guy's fucking security guard. And I'm like, who let these people in here on a prime slot, 3pm to do this fucking talk? But thank God, like there was only one person left in there. But I just thought like, wow, they really and then there were a few, there were a couple of booths that were absolutely slippery slopes where it was like the truth about vaccines and like cancer from 5G, you know, but we can heal it with our hands, you know, that kind of shit.

And so there was definitely some icky kind of like the hand stuff and all that. Yeah, you gotta go in there sharp. You gotta go in there. Primed, yes, sharp, 100%. And so thank God we were, and we were all like, we have enough wits about us to be like, um, this is not it.

There was like Hare Krishna. There were so many groups, not so many, but there were like a couple where we were like, okay, we would text each other like avoid 607, by the way, that was the Scientology booth. And the one and the other one that was the other issue that I felt really weird about, even when I went to bed last night, I just felt kind of disappointed. And it's not that the event was bad. I actually had a really good time and met some really cool people and bought some really cool tchotchkes as we discussed.

But the thing that bummed me out was the number of old white men called like white feather. And then they were like, I'm from Belgium. And I'm like, what? Like, you know, and I'm not in a place, obviously, to determine by looks whether somebody comes from an indigenous background. Like, that is not what I'm saying.

But there were several people where I would then look them up. And it was like, born in Estabula from a Protestant, you know. And it's like, okay, Cindy, you shouldn't be teaching about like, totem poles. You know, it just feels weird. It feels bad. Wasn't there a class that we looked at on the itinerary

where we were like, maybe that's not for you. That was Cindy. Yeah, that was Cindy. That was Cindy, okay, so we were onto it. At the time, well, we were onto it because at the time I thought, you know, well, we don't know if somebody is indigenous or has a background or whatever.

But then of course, like upon reading her like bio and stuff, I was like, oh, I don't feel right about that. And there was a lot of like selling of native and tribal, you know, symbology that like clearly was just kind of adopted by some white Ohioans, you know, and I know, you know, I know that happens, but it just felt so much like, it just felt like there was so little representation of people who were actually practicing those things. You know, it felt like almost, I don't know that everyone, but most of them that I looked

up were like not actually, you know, being represented by people who actually have like that cultural background or that association. So it felt a little weird, but I did have two readings with two mediums, which was really fun. And I believe my grandma came through, which was pretty cool. Actually, why don't we talk about that on the after hours?

I'll tell you about my readings. Okay, cool, yeah. That way, there's like a little extra bonus content. Did you, cause you were supposed to, originally, the itinerary was that you have like eight different places you were gonna go. Did you go to any of them?

No. Well, yes, yes, no, I did, I did. I went to one before the Scientology one. And when I went to the first one, there was not a single person in the room. And I just peeked my head in, but I had to leave in like 20 minutes because I kept signing up for different slots for like, or a reading, palm reading, you know. And so I was like, oh, I can't stay a full hour. And by the way, I would be the only person in the audience.

And it's not like, like, I just felt uncomfortable being like, I would be the only person in the audience and it's not like like I just felt uncomfortable being like I'm gonna sit here and then I'm gonna leave 10 minutes into this hour-long presentation and then there's nobody in the room. You know I feel like that should have that should have been like maybe that's something they talk about in the future about like a scheduling situation because yeah if everybody's got different slots for things and nobody's gonna be able to go to an hour long thing. It felt like it was not the best organization. And also finding these stages took us like two hours because you have to go through the whole fucking auditorium which is again, like hundreds and hundreds of booths

and like thousands of people. And then you have to find some staircase and then they're all in a basement. So it's like, it's not like very accessible either. But anyway, it was very cool. Otherwise I had a very good time and yeah, it was nice. Yeah. Thank you for letting me blab about that for a bit.

I am sad you didn't get to go to some of those classes cause I was hoping to learn on your behalf about pets being the mirrors to something. I don't, one of them said it's pretty cool. So we can talk about this and after I was two and my friend went to her though, because that's the other thing. All those people who did these stages had booths.

So one of the people that did the mediumship reading that I was gonna go to, but we didn't get there on time, I got a reading from her. So it was like, oh, I still got to experience all that, even though I didn't go to the actual hour long presentation. Very cool. Okay, well then, okay, then I don't feel so bad.

But I'm glad you had fun though. I did, thank you. And your itinerary did help because I was able to say, we like this person and we should check out their booth. This person, Emma and I vetted. I almost feel like convention halls, like the same thing with like, if I ever went to Comic-Con, you gotta do the two days

because you gotta do one day of like exhibits and one day of like just doing all the vendors because the vendors are so overwhelming. Yeah, yeah. It was so overwhelming and there were places where I was like, oh, we gotta do that before we leave and then before we knew it, like five hours had passed. So I went to LA's Comic-Con and I was like,

I can't imagine San Diego Comic-Con. Imagine the big one. Yeah. Part of me is always like, I, because I think like a year or two ago, I was like, you know what? One of my things this year is I'm going to go to more conventions and like see more like exhibit halls and like do more like And that never ended up really happening because my first thought was like I want to go to San Diego Comic-Con

I'm never gone and then I went to LA's to practice and I was like I am This practice round was a lot. Yeah, I was like in San Diego Comic-Con. I think it's like ten times that size It's like Coachella for nerds. So I was like, I actually don't think I can go. This conference is going to Colorado Springs and like Sedona next. And I'm like, that's going to be off the chain, dude. Like out of town. Ohio. We had some Indiana psychics, you know, Michigan. But like out there in those like real big cities,

it's going to go be like Asheville. Yeah. Yeah, any of those like big hot spots for metaphysical stuff are gonna be a doozy. Well I'm very happy you went Christine. What do you drink? Thank you. Just like a water today? You've got a coffee sitch? You know, I've got my liquid IV which I I'm a little annoyed because

They used to send it to me because I was like doing some promo with them online and Over time, I guess I just wasn't posting enough about my like code or whatever So now I'm like shit I better start posting about it I don't know my I think I don't even my code is. I think it's just XTeen, but it's like 20% off. So if anyone wants any, but I am drinking it because I'm trying to be more active about my water consumption after all of your bullying calling me a rat.

Yeah, well, I'll keep doing it. It's working. I literally don't have anything to drink in the house right now, except for these damn root beers that keep showing up at my house. Cause remember I got a root beer subscription as a gift. I, so unless you really drink root beer all the time, then it compiles up very quickly.

Accumulates. So I feel I'm, I, part of me feels a little resentful until I can get through some of this, cause I'm like, man me feels a little resentful until I can get through some of this because I'm like man There's so much root beer. So Work we're powering through right now at it feels like morning for me I guess it's noon so it's not too weird now for me to be drinking root beer But I thought it was apropos because this brand is called Capone. Oh That's fun. I was like, we could do something with that.

It does feel weird to be taking my heart medication with just like nothing but sodium-rich soda. I always do that. I always take my, I took my vitamins with a strawberry Fanta the other day. I was like, this seems like it's just counteracting. One of them is keeping you alive, but not both. We don't know which one though The other one's just which one nobody knows Science has not figured it out yet

But yeah, so Listen, I get it. I do the same thing Okay. Well before I Tell my story. This is my PSA to all my thirsty little rats out there This is my PSA to all my thirsty little rats out there, including Christine, to drink some water. And I really, I feel bad that I just like knocked Liquid IV out of the woods and trying to do that. I'm just sad that I wasn't good enough at promoing them. It's my own fault.

But I will say, I think I have a link in my, link in bio, I think, if anybody wants the code. I mean, cause I know the shit's expensive. I like, I'm like, they used to get me some packets every now and then, but now Blaze drinks it. And so it disappears. So I have to hide it in my office. Speaking of Lincoln bio,

do you know what the Lincoln my bio is? Is it a picture of poop? I don't know. What is it? It is close. It's to our new book that we are trying to get people to pre-order Right that old thing It's a well that old thing is atlas the hotter atlas one hot hotter and atlas sequel is called next stop and

Please pre-order it helps us with our numbers in our first week of sales And you can find that link in our bio or in the show notes of this episode. Thank you so much. And with that, here's a story for you, Christine. I'm excited about this one. It's not as just awful as last week's with the Char Man. So I'm excited to not cringe my way through this,

all the way at least. Great. Oh, by the way, ooh, Christine, ooh, you fucked up my algorithm so bad with that Ruby Frankie nonsense. Cause the second you said it within my phone's ear, all of a sudden every single thing that popped up on my TikTok was like months old Ruby Frankie content.

Yeah, it's probably all the ones that I've watched over and over that like now it's saying, oh, you mentioned the topic. Here's Christine's fucking treasure trove of likes. That's annoying, I'm so sorry. I tried to mix with my current algorithm and so I just got a bunch of the gay stuff where it's like, they're definitely gay and here's why,

they're definitely gay and here's why. Oh, about the, oh, abouty ruby and jody or whatever which by the way is one of the fun parts to talk about you know so well could be worse okay well here we go this is uh a mystery a maybe a mystery maybe, we'll see. This is the case of the Pollock sisters, the Pollock twins. Do you know what that is? Why do I know that name? I go through phases where I get obsessed with twins,

so maybe I just read it one time, but I don't remember. So I have not covered them for a while because I thought that they were another set of twins I've covered, which were Jennifer and June Gibbons, aka the silent twins. And that was episode 49. 49. Oh, that's my lucky number. I guarantee you, you said that in the episode.

I know I did. And so anyway, there's, they're a new set of twins. I can fuse them myself. So that's why I haven't covered them before, but they're different. In the 1920s, this is in England in the 1920s, John and Florence Pollock were the future parents of these Pollock twins.

But they were born in the 1920s. They both grew up Christian. They both ended up converting to Catholicism later. And at a very young age, John Pollock, he read about reincarnation and was fascinated with it. I'm excited. And he despite it not aligning with his faith, he didn't care. He was like, I am obsessed with this. This is so cool. It's like if I decide to be religious,

but I also threw in time travel as like a main tenant. I was like, it has to be, there's no way. You were like, I get the 10 commandments, but here's my 11th and it's that time travel is real. If it's real ever, it's real now. I'm just saying because- No, I'm full, listen, I'm in full agreement because it's real ever, it's real now. I'm just saying because- No, I'm full, listen, I'm in full agreement because it's gotta be real.

If it's real ever, right, then it's real always. If time traveling to the past is real in 4,000 years- Think about it, guys. Do do do do do do. I would be so obnoxious with a bag of weed or whatever you guys eat it with. A bag of, yes. that you guys eat it with. A bag, yeah. Eat it with? Okay, let's move quickly.

I'm like, what, the gummies that I buy legally online that they deliver to me in a shiny pack? Yeah. Sometimes I think if I, like, I really do wish I went like acid tripping at least once in my life, because I would have had the best fucking time. Listen, the night is young, you know?

The life, your life is young. Let's not count it out just yet. Okay, well, let's get me a new heart first, and then we'll try things like acid. Fine. Um... Okay, so he's nine years old, believes in reincarnation. No matter what his religion says,

he's like, maybe it's real, maybe it's real. And he sometimes even prays to God for proof He believes in reincarnation, no matter what his religion says. He's like, maybe it's real, maybe it's real. And he sometimes even prays to God for proof that reincarnation is real so he can feel validated in his own beliefs. Wow. Yeah, he's big on this. So in 1946, John and Florence now have a couple of kids.

They got a few sons, some sources said two, some sources said four, most sources said two. And they also have a daughter that was born that year named Joanna. And once Joanna was old enough to talk, she started regularly saying, "'I will never grow up to be a lady.'" Oh, oh, yikes. regularly saying, I will never grow up to be a lady. Uh oh.

Yikes. The family moves eventually to another area in England where they start running a milk delivery company and are like a like a milk, milkman services essentially. And in 1951, five years later, after Joanna was born, they have another daughter named Jacqueline who is born. So Joanna and Jacqueline, they are five years apart from each other but they are very very bonded. They do everything together. Joanna is especially known, maybe it's because she is the

older sister, but she was especially known to be very kind to people and inclusive and take care of them and bring them into the fold. She was very doting to Jacqueline, and she would just look out for the other kids in the area, and she was also known, like her favorite hobby was putting on really elaborate plays, like costumes and set deck.

Like this girl put in the work for a themed play. And so that's what Joanna was known for. Both sisters also had this weird habit of showing affection to people by combing their hair. We don't really know where that came from, but it just kind of was an organic thing that happened for them. They both really loved combing people's hair

to show them that they for them. They both really loved combing people's hair to show them that they like them. And it's literally all precious. So this is now six years later in 1957. So Joanna is 11, Jacqueline is six. They are walking with their friend Anthony to Mass at, they're trying to go to church. This is literally like out of a movie, the three of them are all holding hands and walking quietly down the street. Just three little kids all holding hands together.

Is that not precious? I imagine they're skipping and pooping stick. I think I'm remembering this. I'm remembering this horror story all of a sudden. I'm remembering it and I don't know if I heard it. Yeah, it couldn't have been on here, right? Obviously. It might've been on a different podcast once,

but I'm maybe probably Smashing Legends. I don't know, but okay, go on. Okay, they're all holding hands, maybe hoop and stick, maybe skipping something. Something precious. Imagine the cutest, sweetest thing you ever could and then hold onto that story. Kick the can. Kick the can, sweetest thing you ever could, and then hold onto that thing. Kick the can.

Kick the can, which by the way I found out is more than just kicking a fucking can back and forth. There's rules to kick the can. I didn't know that. I feel like I learned that on Hey Arnold, but I don't recall completely. I think I saw it on Hey Arnold and thought they were kidding.

I was like, those idiots don't know how to kick the can. I really thought Kick the Can was like, I kick the can, and then you kick the can, and somehow we end up in another location because we've walked. I really thought Kick the Can was like, I kick the can and then you kick the can and somehow we ends up in another location because we've walked. It's like a full game, I think. Yeah. Okay, you, me and Eva are gonna play Kick the Can

when you come to LA. It sounds like you're not very good at it. I'm not, so you have a good chance at winning Miss Competitive. Let's do it. Finally. Stop calling me competitive. Listen, you're either projecting or something.

I don't know, man. I think I have seen you in a room with your brother maybe during one heated conversation and I ran with it. I was like, all right, they are obviously competitive. With a sibling, that's different, to be fair. I just wanna know the rules to kick the can, so we're gonna do it sometime. And then you can go play with Zandi

and then you can win over there. Okay, so They're holding hands very sweet nearby there is a woman named Marjorie win and She is Going through it. She is apparently very riddled with grief at the moment after losing her husband She is some sources say she was like forcibly separated from her own kids. I don't know what the story is there, but she was struggling in a lot of ways. And it seems that either she was maybe attempting to end her life or she was just really having a bad day and took maybe too many pills.

Oh no. Some stories say she was hoping she would overdose. Some people say it was an accidental overdose, but either way, the dose was not lethal as quickly as one would anticipate. And while under the influence, she gets in her car and starts driving erratically through town. Fuck. People tried to stop her. There was literally people in their own cars, like trying to chase her down and like swerve her

off the road, but nobody could do anything about it. She was flying. And unfortunately her car ended up jumping the curb on the sidewalk and bam, hit all three kids holding hands so sweetly on their way to church. And all of them died pretty instantly. I mean, that's a fucking nightmare, dude. One source said that all of the kids literally went flying.

So all three died? All three died. Jesus Christ. The sisters died, I think, pretty instantly. Anthony, I think, went to the hospital and then died later, which is just even worse. You almost hope that it was just instant. So, seemingly unaware of what happened,

Marjorie just keeps driving. Like she... Girl. Like she thought she just hit a curb or something. Eventually her car gives out or someone's able to get her off the road and seeming really dazed, she was quoted saying, what's the matter? Did I hit someone? Girl. Now some other sources say that she actually intentionally hit them after having some sort of psychotic break about losing her own kids. We don't know what the real answer is, but she was... It sounds like she doesn't even know. Yeah, I don't think she knows who she was. And so she ended up quickly being unresponsive and

I think probably passing out from the medication. She goes to the hospital and they treat her for an overdose, but then she is put under like intense psychiatric care obviously, but get this they put her under psychiatric care for her acute melancholy So, I don't know like Depression light even though she literally just fucking killed three kids. Well acute acute means sudden onset and like acute means like not good like it's like Remember we've talked about this where I used to think acute meant like lower because it's an acute angle. I'm still there Yes, yeah

No, apparently you're saying it kind of we talked about cute is the opposite of chronic because chronic is just like a constant underlying acute is like a constant underlying, acute is like a sudden onset of something. So basically it was probably true, whatever acute melancholy. Yeah, melancholy is still, I feel like no one even uses that word anymore. That feels like an outdated word. No, I think like they used to sum up a lot of, I think,

a lot of things with just like melancholia and it was just like an umbrella for- Or hysteria probably. Or hysteria for yeah, that one was probably more anxiety. But yeah. Yeah, I feel like either you were too much and it was hysteria or you were not enough and it was melancholia.

Just kidding. Just kidding. So anyway, she gets put away, we don't really hear about her again. So the three kids, they all passed very quickly. Uh, they were also apparently buried side by side in adjoining graves, which like, so the dad was obviously, or John Pollock, the one who as a kid always believed in reincarnation. Yeah. He was like, obviously beside himself and he spent most of the time after this in his

daughter's room. He claimed he could still feel their presence. And shortly after, Florence was pregnant. And they literally prayed for their daughters to return. So keep in mind, immediately the story tickles the placebo effect. Right, right, right. Sure, there's like some bias immediately, right? So anyway, they... and actually while I say this, John was very into reincarnation. Apparently Florence was like so not into these beliefs, so like it almost actually like caused them

to get divorced a few times. So like he was like not into these beliefs that it almost actually caused them to get divorced a few times, so he was really into this. I mean, I've heard people, I mean, people get divorced when they lose a child, let alone three children, because they cope with grief differently. So I can imagine, in this case, if he's really holding onto this idea

that they're gonna be reborn and she's trying to get back to focusing on her pregnancy to the other kids, I can imagine that being a big, a point of contention, I imagine, for the two of them. Yeah, I think, I didn't see any information on before this event that she was really, like had a strong opinion of it. I think she just kind of disagreed. before this event that she was really, had a strong opinion of it. I think she just kind of disagreed.

And I think, yeah, people grieve differently. And I think he was holding onto it. And she was like, can you shut the fuck up and let me just get over the fact that both my daughters just died instantly? Just have this pregnancy without wondering if it's my dead children. Yeah, yeah, that seems like really,

I mean, being pregnant is hard enough. That one I can speak to. So I imagine it was like, okay, like I don't wanna keep talking about that grim thing right now. Yeah, especially like for stress on your health and everything. The stress, yeah.

Or like even your- Ooh, that sounds terrible. Or even like he's, it almost, in some ways, like takes away from his own excitement about a new baby It's like oh, he's right. You're putting a lot of pressure on you're like, oh, I want them to be the replacement of yeah Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I'm not blaming him at all either I'm sure I would probably honestly have this exact same reaction So I'm not I'm not saying like he's in the wrong

But I can see why that would be like a tension in the house. Yeah, as someone who believes in reincarnation, I don't think if I went through something horrible, I could get through it without assuming for a second, as I'm getting through it, maybe they'll come back in a different way. By having the hope, at least, you know? Yeah. Yeah.

Yes, so they're grieving differently. It really drives a wedge between them, but she's pregnant and in 1958 Florence gives birth and they had gone to doctor's appointments. The doctor said, oh, it's like a healthy baby, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But she gives birth to two babies. Was never told that there was actually another baby.

Oh, because back then it was hard to tell. The doctors even were like, we had no idea. Like this is not supposed to happen. Yeah, because if one's just like high, I've watched a lot of called the midwife before I had a baby, then I can't watch it anymore. But when I did watch it, I was like kind of surprised how little they were able to figure out back

then just because they didn't have ultrasounds, obviously, for a while. You just have to feel around. Yeah. And I guess he only felt one baby. So what a surprise. After grieving their two daughters, they now have two daughters. Oh, that is so crazy. I'm sorry to ask. I know you already said it, but did the boy end up passing? Yeah. they now have two daughters. Oh, that is so crazy.

So did the, I'm sorry to ask, I know you already said it, but did the boy end up passing? Yeah. All three kids died, okay. All three did, but one was just their friend. Oh, it was a friend, oh, I'm sorry. I thought it was his son, because I was like, does he not want him to come back too?

Oh, oh, oh. This is somebody else's son, okay. No, they were just going to church with one of their friends and then the friend also passed. Mm-hmm Mm-hmm. Yeah, so they ends up having identical twins and even though identical twins are not sorry I don't want twins in general were not like on either side Like it was not common. They were it couldn't have expected this wasn't like a genetic thing that they were expecting right, let alone identical twins.

And so they end up having these- Well, I think identical is the fluke, right? Yeah, that's why I'm saying like either way, I guess it wouldn't have- Oh, I see, okay. Cause identical twins. Yeah, my friend had identical twins and she said that's just like when your body just like

goes like, oops, I made two of them. Also I heard that if you, I mean, so fraternal twins are the only ones that you can maybe see coming, but it's also apparently only if on the mom's side or on the uterus owner's side. Apparently, they're in charge genetically on whether or not twins come through. So if you are, even if you're a male fraternal twin

and you're having a baby, it doesn't matter. Apparently it's just if it's- I see. Yeah. Anyway. Well, in that case, I'm in luck. Cause I, well, I always wanted twins, but now I think that was a bad call.

So maybe I'm okay without. I've always, I mean, we've talked about this before. I've always liked the whimsy of multiples, but yeah. And if I found out right now, if I had three babies showing up all once, I would absolutely pass out. Four? Get about it. So they have these identical twins.

And this is where if you need to write it down, I understand. But the original sisters were Joanna and Jacqueline. OK, you write it down. I am. I don't have gargoyles, so. Yeah, that's an old fashioned pen will do. Joanna and Jacqueline and the new sisters are Jillian and Jennifer. Okay. I mean, I guess at least they gave them new names. Yeah. I know.

I don't mean that to be flippant. I mean, seriously, I didn't know if they were going to say, maybe they compromised, maybe he did want to name them the same, just to have that comfort. And part of me is like, maybe they were just going for a theme, but it does feel oddly close to home that like it's, you know what I mean?

I will say out of these four girl J names, three of them are Dugger names. Oh, there you go. So they still have, which one do they have to go? Joanna they don't have yet? Well, they have to go? Joanna? They don't have yet. They have a, well, they have a Joy Anna and a Joe Hanna that are both sisters in the family. They couldn't come up with anything original. So Jacqueline is what they don't have. They don't have a Jacqueline. Okay. Anyway, only bring that up because it is not something I missed that there's a series of J names in a family. Okay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, okay, so they have the older sisters are Joanna and Jacqueline. The newer sisters are Jillian and Jennifer. And right away they noticed that each of these sisters seems to have a weird set of commonalities with one of the previous sisters. Oh boy. For one, Jennifer has two very interesting birthmarks,

and both of them match identical spots where Jacqueline had spots. That's pretty weird. I was going to say that's one you can't really. Imagine a way like me. Right. Explain away. So one was a discoloration at exactly the same spot that Jacqueline had one on her waist. They both have the same thing. Another one was right above Jennifer's eye, which is a scar that Jacqueline once had from

when she fell into a bucket when she was a kid. Or when she was a toddler, I guess. Oh no, that's not only thing I would do. I know. So, it was a scar on Jacqueline's face and now in the exact same spot in the exact same way is now a birthmark on Jennifer's face. Also, Jennifer also had three birthmarks near her nose

in the same places where Jacqueline got stitches after the accident. Pretty weird. When alive, Joanna, who kind of takes over, who seems to have been taken over by Jillian, if we're playing this game, like just so you know who's who. When alive, Joanna had a splay-footed walk while Jillian also had a splay-footed walk. Meanwhile, Jacqueline when alive did not have a splay-footed walk and neither did Jennifer. So they both already walk like one of the others. Despite being identical, Jennifer was slightly stockier as was Jacqueline and Jillian was more slender as was Joanna. And one time Jillian actually pointed at Jennifer's birthmark,

the one that looked that was like right over her eye. And she said, that is the mark Jennifer got when she fell on a bucket, which that was not Jennifer. That was, Oh, how weird that she said Jennifer too. Like she like, as though it happened in this life. Oh, how weird. Yeah.

It's like, oh, that's where you fell. I remember that. And it was actually when Jacqueline fell when she was alive. Oh, that gave me chills. This one's a little odd for me. I feel like we're kind of Looking for things at this point, but Jennifer as an adult held a pencil the exact same way as Jacqueline did and

Joanna did that held the pencil the same way Jillian did I guess they held them in odd ways and they both I don't even know how I hold the pencil but Yeah, that one that one was like, okay, I guess I'll add that one in. Another example is that the girls started to talk about places they remembered, but they had never actually been before. But Jacqueline and Joanna had been. So an example of this is the family moved away from their old neighborhood when the two new daughters came. the family moved away before

they could have gained any memories about that place. But years later as older kids, Jennifer and Jillian would visit the town with their parents and want to play at the park very badly, even though they'd never been to that park, but they remember all these memories at the park. And even when their parents said, okay, we'll go to the park, the kids led the way despite not knowing how to get there. Oh boy, that's weird. They also walked past, to get to the park,

they walked past Joanna and Jacqueline's old school and immediately started talking about that building, calling it their school and reminiscing in ways that they should not have been able to. They even called it- Oh, that's weird. They even called it our school before they even saw it around the corner.

But they said, our school is coming up and then they turned the corner and then there was Jacqueline and Joanna's school. Another time they were actually overheard talking about a car accident. They had never been in a car accident, but they were talking about in detail a car accident they had been in, including Jillian going over to Jennifer,

holding Jennifer's head and saying, the blood's coming out of your eyes. That's where the car hit you. And even weirder, John and Florence remember when they had to go identify their daughters that Jacqueline had bandages on her eyes And now she's saying there's blood coming out I need you to listen to me very carefully when you started the story you literally said to me I'm so glad I'm not doing a rough one like last week and now you're like anyway these three dead children I'm like Jesus Christ. This is darker than anything you've covered Yeah, this is actually pretty rough. Um, the last one you said wasn't not probably not even real

well, yeah, I Did forget I was talking to a parent here, too. So it's just got Still I mean, I don't imagine it's easy for anyone to hear three children get hit by a car and bleeding out of their eyes, but... I mean, I think it's probably extra hard for parents. It's just unpleasant, definitely. So on top of all this, the twins from the very beginning always had a terrible phobia of cars, and any time a car just drove by them casually,

they would say it was gonna hit them, and they'd start freaking out. Oh. When they were three, the girls got a box of toys a car just drove by them casually, they would say it was going to hit them and they'd start freaking out. When they were three, the girls got a box of toys that once belonged to Joanna and Jacqueline. One source even said they only got this box of toys because they kept asking for their old toys back. And the parents had to go find toys that they tucked away to remember Joanna and Jacqueline. Holy shit. Jillian immediately claimed one of the dolls that belonged to Joanna.

Jennifer immediately claimed a doll that used to be Jacqueline's. And they both adamantly said that these dolls came from Santa. And when they were given to Joanna and Jacqueline they were originally Christmas presents. Oh my god how weird is that? They both also named their dolls Mary and Susan which Joanna and Jacqueline named the dolls. Shut the fuck up. There were apparently other toys of Jacqueline's in Joanna's that the girls also remembered

were previous Christmas toys and claimed them as their own. This was the moment, now years later, this was the moment where Florence was convinced that maybe reincarnation was at play because remember she was so against it. And I guess this toy moment is when she was like, OK, this is too fucking weird. Yeah. Now, for everyone wondering like how much is being fed to them in passing that maybe they like. You know, we're accidentally creating personas based on what they'd heard. John claims that even though he was thinking

about reincarnation the whole time, he never mentioned it out loud to the family. He didn't want to freak out the kids. He didn't want to give them any bias at any point. He said he never even mentioned reincarnation with the twins in the room until age 13. Wow. But, well, we'll get into that.

So until then the girls continued to exhibit similar behaviors of Joanna's and Jacqueline's. They had a special bond with their grandma who once raised Joanna and Jacqueline and they seemed to have a strong bond right away as if they already knew each other. When the first two daughters died Florence ended up staying home because she just couldn't handle the grief and she stopped working and doing milk deliveries. But later they ended up finding her old work uniform and saying, oh, that's mommy's coat from when she would wear from when she would be on deliveries. And nobody knew how they were able to know that. Through the years, Jillian, just like Joanna, was known for treating Jennifer like a big sister

and being there for her, even though they were twins, not older sister, younger sister. She was also known to be very doting to the neighborhood kids in similar ways that Joanna was. And both kids seemed to figure out on their own that they like to show affection through combing people's hair. Stop! One of Jillian's hobbies that everyone knew her for was putting on massive elaborate plays

with costumes and set deck. Just like Joanna. Ah! How cute! Oh my god. And Jillian later even said that she had visions of playing with her brothers in a house that she never lived in before. And when she described things like the furniture,

she could even describe the gardens and the orchard nearby and the neighborhood. It ended up being the house that the family lived in before the twins were born. Wow. In the 1960s, multiple outlets started talking about the twins and the Pollock's church criticized the family for their story. How could you believe in reincarnation?

Ba-ba-ba-ba. And the Pollock's ended up having to leave the church because it was so intense. Wow. But as adults, Jillian and Jennifer slowly remembered less and less of their past lives, which is another indicator that maybe it really was reincarnation, because they say by like five you start kind of losing it. And by adulthood, they had no memories left of that time.

See, that to me is pretty convincing, because if he was trying to keep it up this whole time, like keep talking about the doll That you know, yeah, like they wouldn't have kind of forgotten everything Also, if he didn't say anything until they were 13 that it sounds like he let like eight years pass before he said Nathan right true true But this is where I also say a lot of people believe this could be a hoax because maybe not even an intentional hoax, but they might just be, you know, scraping the bottom for some sort of coincidence wherever they can find it to help them grieve their own children. So a lot of people say maybe John lied about never mentioning reincarnation, or they've literally had older brothers who could have said something to them. I mean, the story was huge at the time, so neighbors could have said it in passing by just seeing them. Brothers could have the brothers could have also told them like the names of the dolls or told them

memories that they had with their other sisters. The mom could have like been the one that combed their hair a certain way. So all four of the girls showed affection that way. All the kids have, you know, all kids have an ability to be very doting and sweet and they all put on plays and they could be scared of cars, especially if the parents are scared of cars now around their kids. Oh, that's true too. That's a really good point. And so the parents could have just primed these kids forever without even noticing it. I mean,

John was literally praying for his daughter to be reincarnated. So I don't know if they are as subtle as they think they were. But this could have, I, you know, it would be interesting if it were true. And I wasn't there. Maybe, maybe it is true. But this could also all be side effects of grieving parents kind of transferring their memories onto their daughters. And one theory which was interesting was maternal impressions, which is literally that like

while she was pregnant, she might've thought so much about her daughters. She might've, Florence might've thought so much about Joanna and Jacqueline that while pregnant the memory is almost like generational trauma onto the other babies. Right. Well, and there's also that idea of trauma within the trauma in utero. And I mean, I imagine having just lost two kids, that trauma that was probably ongoing. And so, you know, they say you can pass that through DNA.

So who knows, you know, maybe if she'd, like, for example, the phobia of the car maybe was something while she was pregnant, maybe that got, I mean, I, you know, I think that's also a very new field of study. So I don't know too much about it, but yeah, there's a lot. I mean, but even that alone would be really fascinating if that somehow was passed in utero or it's even just like psychologically, the story is fascinating. Yeah. So the only thing we know for sure is that we may never know for sure. And that's

the the Pollock twins are or what they're called. The Hexum Rebirth is another name for them. Hexum Rebirth. Okay, I swear to God, where have I heard this story? Not me. Oh, Lore. Lore. That's where I've heard it. Lore. Wow, and that was really well done and so fucking creepy. And you know how much I'm fascinated by reincarnation. And, you know, obviously the desire for your children,

like, you know, that was clearly born out of grief and his fascination already with reincarnation. But then it also makes you wonder, like, maybe as a kid, there was something in him that knew, like, he would experience, you know what I mean? Like, maybe as a kid, there was something in him that knew, like, he would experience, you know what I mean? Like, maybe it wasn't that his fascination with reincarnation, like, led to this scenario. Like, maybe it was the other way around. Like, somehow he knew that would affect him one day. So he got really drawn to the topic. I mean, even like, think about,

like, one of the girls used to always say, I'll never be a lady. I'll never grow up to be a lady. So, like, again, it's like almost on both sides of the timeline, they were able to already sense each other or something. Yes. Oh, my... Ooh, I have goose cam. My gosh, that is such a creepy story, dude. You did a very good job telling it. Thank you. Thank you. I have goose cam. Well, I have to pee real quick.

Is that OK? Yes. Wow. When Allison isn't around, I'm such a piece of garbage. I'm literally just I'm in the same pajamas. I haven't left my apartment like three days. I'm eating a box of Nilla Wafers. It's all it's kind of keeping me alive these days. Man, I get it.

I behave that way too. It's nice to have a bit of a bachelor pad. I was going to say, I get that way too. When Blaze is gone. When Blaze is not around, what's the first thing, what's the first way your behavior changes? I immediately start ordering poke bowls, like daily. Like DoorDash, like I just order like sushi.

And it's not that he wouldn't want sushi, it's just like, we don't really, like we'll order it every now and then, but like when he's out of town, like it's not his, like poke and like all that is not his favorite thing. So we don't usually, so it's like my favorite thing. So that's definitely, and then also I just do nothing. I clean nothing, I do nothing. I just become like the ultimate slob. The place looks like a mess, currently.

Like Allison would be having a full blown panic attack. I mean, it, like it looks, it doesn't look as bad as a place that like deserves to have roaches, but definitely looks more like if you walked into our place today versus any other time, you'd be like, oh, I kind of get why you have roaches. Like it just, it looks kind of like maybe you walked into our place today versus any other time, you'd be like, oh, I kind of get why you've urges. Like it just, it looks kind of like maybe you need

to pick some, some of your clothes up off the living room floor. Why are they there? You know? Oh yeah. I mean, listen, to me that's a, that's a normal Tuesday. My house looks like that on clean days, but I do understand that some people-

How do my clothes get out there? I literally don't know how my clothes get out there. I like, there's literally just... Listen, I follow some accounts where they're like, these are where all my bras end up. And it's like on the kitchen counter, on the, like, I don't know, you know, you just move around. Also you have just like a one thing.

Like I have three floors, my shit still ends up somehow up in Blaze's office. I'm like, why are my socks in Blaise's office? I don't know. I don't even know what they're. As much as I want a bigger space, I'm like, I know it would just give me more room to be a filthy animal.

Yeah, and it's great. So, well, I- I don't know what the problem is. So far, it's pretty contained, so at least the living room, but I'm still amazed. I'm like, how did my shirt end up here? What was I doing mid taking my shirt off by myself in the middle of the day. Why not take it off your living room? I Don't know how we got there though. I just it's always a mystery

I feel like I walk around and I'm just like I couldn't tell you how it came to be anyway I think I think that's more normal than you realize. I think that's pretty standard You know like sometimes I play that game or well. I don't play it. Other people play What's in Christine's Purse and they'll pull out a bottle of Cholula and be like, what's this? And I'm like, I don't know. And they're like, well, where'd it come from? I don't know.

It's like you obviously put it there. I mean, I know I put it there. I just don't know why or when. I do like to think that maybe it's more normal than I realize, but also maybe we surround ourselves with just these types of people. I was gonna say, maybe it's just you and me and we're just sick in the head

and I'm trying to convince us it's normal. You know, it could be, it could very well be also. Well, it's nice to not be alone. I wish I could be clean, but yeah. Anyway, okay, so are you ready for a story? Yeah, 1000%. Also Jack can leave that in, right? That's fine that we talk about being slobs.

I think we talk about much worse normally, so. Okay, I just wanna make sure cause you started the conversation. I didn't want want to make sure, because you started the conversation, I didn't want you to be like, that was for your ears only. Okay, so everybody, after this nice interlude, I have a story for you. This is the story of Terry Peter Rasmussen,

AKA the Chameleon Killer. Oh, no. So I want to add the Sinister Hood gals talked about this story on like episode 50 something of their podcast. So I've listened to it there as well. And then overall, because I just feel like all these places are definitely worth checking out all these sources.

Also, there's an entire podcast called the Bare Brook Murders, which is an incredibly well done podcast series. And I would recommend it. I listened to it ages ago. So it was one of those things where I was researching this story and going, why do I know about this? Oh, right. I listened to I like binged an entire podcast about just this story. So anyway, it's worth listening to

because you can kind of watch it. It's sort of like serial where you can like see it kind of unfolding in real time as they're getting clues and it's very cool. So I'm gonna do my best to cover it from my perspective, but just if you want more of the story, that is where you should go. So Terry Peter Rasmussen,

he was born in Denver, Colorado, December 23rd, 1943. And we don't know a lot about his early life, his early experiences, childhood, what his family was like, but it's almost like no news, maybe it means good news, maybe like, maybe just nothing to report. There was one story, just kind of a dude, you know? There was one story I heard on Bear Brook where he had been cutting a watermelon

at a picnic or something with a family gathering, at a family gathering. And one of the other kids like made him mad or said something that ticked him off. And he went chasing after him with this big knife. And apparently it was so startling and upsetting to the family that they like knew something was wrong at that point.

So there must've been some signs at the very least, but overall like, you know, that he wasn't in trouble. There wasn't anything like big that we can point to besides some anecdotes like that. So his family moved to Arizona when he was young and Terry attended elementary school and high school in Phoenix. He dropped out his sophomore year, which was 1960 and enlisted in the Navy in 1961.

He trained and worked as a naval electrician until he left the military in 67. And now after his discharge, Terry relocated to Hawaii because his parents had a shoe shop there. Oh, okay. Of course. Okay. Of course.

He moves to Hawaii to work. Sorry. Important question. Important question. Please go ahead. Do you think that in the 1960s, that they still called themselves cobblers? Or do you think he was just like a shoe store owner? I'm trying to find the conversation where I can

before we get to the sad stuff. I think a cobbler makes shoes. Did his dad not make shoes or was like a salesman? No, they just owned a shoe store. Oh, OK. In my mind, I was like, damn, he's a Hawaiian cobbler. That's crazy. OK. No, I think a Hawaiian cobbler is pineapple coconut layered with sponge cake. No, I'm kidding. But that sounds lovely.

Uh, no, I think I think it was just a shoe store. Okay, that makes it less interesting. But okay. Yeah, I think, I mean, who knows? Maybe it was a fucking shoe carnival for all I know, but they basically owned a shoe store. Imagine if a shoe carnival called themselves Cobblers. I mean.

Imagine if Cobblers called their store the carnival, and then you went there and you were like, this is not as fun as I was expecting. Okay, that's a really good point. Yeah, imagine if a shoe store called itself the carnival. Wait, they do, and it still doesn't make sense. Yeah, one time I sent my mom a reel or to talk about like oh me walking through

Walking down the aisle at Payless shoe store So my mom can see if these sneakers fit me and I sent it to my mom and she goes I didn't take you to Payless I took you to shoe carnival and I was like what the fuck is the difference anyway? That's like truly that's a that's a kind of a thing my mom would say it seems these days where you just don't ever get a Straight answer from them. It's like, no one asked what the store was. Let's- Yeah, I don't remember that being pertinent to the conversation.

Get it together. So in Hawaii, after he moves there, he meets his first wife. They are married in July, 1968, and he moved there in 1967. So this was like a very quick engagement, like a short engagement. Apparently, which you can probably guess based on the content of this podcast, Terry was not an easy man to be married to.

It seems like pretty early on, they had quite a bit of conflict in the marriage, though we don't have a lot of detail. In 1969, the couple moved back to Terry's home in Arizona, and that is where Terry began working in his trade as an electrician. Okay. That same year, incidentally, his wife gave birth to their twin daughters.

So we got a couple more twins today. Interesting. The family relocated in 1970 to Redwood City, California, where Terry continued to work as an electrician. And while they were living to Redwood City, California, where Terry continued to work as an electrician. And while they were living in Redwood City, they welcomed their third child to the Rasmussen family. And this was a baby boy. So in 72, the Rasmussens had a fourth child,

this time a girl, and their relationship of the parents was deteriorating. They separated the same year that their fourth child was born, though neither filed for divorce. It is worth noting, by the way, and Saoirse made this note, which I was thankful for, that the first no-fault divorce law was signed in California in 1969, and this made it more possible for women to divorce their husbands.

So basically, before 1969 in California, it was incredibly difficult to divorce their husbands. So basically before 1969 in California, it was incredibly difficult to, as a woman, to divorce your husband. But even though this was signed into law in 1969 and we're in 1972, there were still a lot of complications. Like for example, a lot of banks denied women their own bank accounts without a husband's signature. And that went on through the mid-70s.

Same with mortgages, credit cards, loans. So it was very difficult financially to live divorced in the 70s. And not always, but in some circumstances. And so we don't know why they didn't file for divorce, but it's possible that could have been one of the reasons. It's just speculation. Sure, she could have been like just stuck, just stuck. Just like, no, yeah, I just don't wanna do the paperwork

and need to, I don't know, find permission to get a bank account. So regardless, she and Terry did get back together eventually and they moved back to Phoenix in 1973 where Terry now worked both as an electrician and in a shoe store. So he's really just like, circling back to these old, he's a cobbler.

Circling back to all these old hobbies of his, all these old jobs. So although we don't know the personal details of what was going on in their marriage, we do know they were struggling. And in 1975, Terry was arrested in Phoenix for aggravated assault. And not long after that, his wife took all four children and left him. So in December of 1975, that would by the way, happened in June, just to remind you. And so now we're in December. So it was about six months. He shows up to visit his family unannounced.

Oh. The wife and three kids, or the ex-wife, I guess, and three kids. I'm sorry, four kids now four kids now geez okay so he goes to visit his family that he has not seen. That does not want him okay. That does not want him. He shows up unannounced accompanied by a random woman. Now it's speculated that perhaps he was just trying to show off like well I don't need you I've got a new woman you know that kind of thing.

We're not really sure, but he showed up at their doorstep. He told his family he was living in Ingleside, Texas. And this, they were like, okay, bye. And that was the last time Terry Rasmussen's wife and children ever saw him. And their divorce would be finalized in 78 two years later or two or three years later. So that was the last that they kind of that was their

official parting ways that first I say first he word first family his first family. Okay noted. So yeah you get you get the hint. Next Terry made his way to New Hampshire and he adopted a new moniker. He was now going under the name Bob Evans. Like the restaurant? Okay, I was waiting for that because every podcast I listened to did not mention it. And I thought, well, we're gonna mention it, obviously.

Obviously. No Hate to Sinisterhood and the other podcasts I listened to, I'm sure you're being mention it, obviously. Obviously. No Hate to Sinisterhood and the other podcast that let's do it. I'm sure you're being very professional, but I have to talk about the breakfast joint for a moment. I fucking love Bob Evans. Yeah, so apparently, Sersha also knew our dumbasses would immediately discuss this because they put this side note in which says,

the Bob Evans farm and restaurant business began major expansion in 1953. So please remember that this is happening in like 78-ish. Right, so he is not Bob Evans of the Bob Evans fame. No, no. And their commercial campaigns throughout the decade and afterwards. So he basically, the reason I say that is

because that was already a popular chain. It's not like, oh, he just picked a random name and then later it became a restaurant. Like for decades, for like at least two decades, two and a half decades, this place has already been around nationwide. It's a very odd name in my opinion to pick, like the name of a restaurant, but whatever.

Okay. So he, it's an interesting choice as Saoirse wrote. So for years, Terry or Bob Evans would travel the country under false aliases, terrorizing families wherever he went, but it would take decades for anybody to finally put together who Terry really was and all that he had done. So now we do a little star wipe.

We move to a new spot, a new setting. Oh. Our new character is Jesse Morgan, who grew up in Bear Brook Gardens, which is a small trailer community in Allenstown, New Hampshire, surrounded by the forest of Bear Brook State Park.

At over 10,000 acres of land, Bear Brook is New Hampshire's largest developed state park, popular for hiking, camping, fishing, mountain biking, et cetera. Today there are over 40 miles of trail. The park has always been majorly forested. And with so much to do on the beaten path path there are secluded parts of the park that are like much more remote and don't get much traffic. So Jesse and his friends would often play hide and seek on four-wheelers. Some kids would hide like out in the expanse of the forest and the seekers would then drive around on ATVs looking for them. So in summer of 1985, Jesse and his friends

were out and about playing their usual games when they came across a big metal barrel. It was a rusted blue 55 gallon steel drum in the middle of the remote wilderness. Hey, firm pass. Hey, that's not good. That sounds exactly like the big, that feels actually kind of fake. That feels, if I got that script sent to me

by someone who wanted to make a horror movie, I'd be like, that's too obvious. You have to, it doesn't feel natural. That would never happen. Too natural, too unnatural. Too unnatural, and so guess what they did, because they're kids. Open it up obviously, and they found it up right.

They open up the fucking barrel, right? So they try to open it up, and they can't really get it open fully. They do notice a terrible smell is emanating from this barrel. And they manage to tip it over while they're trying to open it up. And they notice a liquid begin seeping out. And Jesse being a child described it as

what he thought was rotten milk. Oh, oh, you got me back after that story I told you today. Whew. Oh. I'm glad because you deserved it. Here's the thing though, like I was a rambunctious teenager in the middle of the woods quite often. And if I found a reason to explore, you know, back before there were phones, you just had

to make fun with what you had. And sometimes there was a steel drum pull over a dead body. But if I ever found a container and now my friends and I are like gung ho about opening this thing and that's going to be our fun for the day the Second it smelled I was never interested enough to keep going I'd be like you were like I'm out of here I was like it was fun until I can't breathe all of a sudden. I don't want until it stinks Yeah, especially like if it smells like I mean the smell of death is like a very specific smell and it I can see why someone would say something like bad milk because it's I mean just such a horribly potent smell like and it's like decomp and yeah and then liquids

pouring out of it now oh my god and I know one of them was touching that liquid with their bare hands I know oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god they were like what is this and they probably touched it and smelled their hands being like I don't know what this is oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god. Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh my god They were like, what is this and they probably touched it and smelled their hands being like, I don't know what this is Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh my god. The thought makes you want to scream That's horrific Okay, so I'm glad you find this horrifying and compelling because the if if anybody else does also the bear book podcast goes into like great detail about the kids

like finding the barrel and all this, because it's like a well-documented story. So definitely go listen to that if you wanna hear the actual interviews and like first-person accounts of all this. But yeah, so they, you know, their kids are thinking like, oh, I don't know, this is just something gross in the woods. And they're like, ew, it stinks.

So they hop on their four-wheelers and they just head out. It wasn't until a few months later that a man was out hunting. A man was out hunting in that same area on November 10th, 1985 when he found this same barrel. But this time as he examined it and looked a little closer, he noticed what appeared to be human bones coming out of the partially opened container. Which like it's so sad to think that like if that's like your loved one and like someone almost discovered them. I know. I know. And then just kept sitting there for months.

Yeah. Yeah. It makes it extra sad. And I think the kids who are now obviously adults have had to kind of come to grips with that, you know? Yeah. Like that they didn't do anything or say anything, but it's also like for kids.

Or the fact that they were like, you didn't know. Yeah, I mean, the fact that they were just like fucking around with like a container. And like they were just jostling it out. They don't know that people hide dead bodies in a park yet. You know, that's something you learn now when the other man finds it and tells you They were just jostling it around. They don't know that people hide dead bodies in a park yet. That's something you learn now when the other man finds it

and tells you and you're traumatized for the rest of your life. So you were young and naive briefly when you found the barrel the first time. So yeah, it's too bad. So he, of course, this guy, the hunter, realizes quickly that something is very wrong. So he calls the police from the Bear Brook Gardens community

and the responding officer walks right out and opens up the barrel and the plastic bag inside it and is shocked to discover the human remains of two people. Two? Oh my God. The first being an adult woman who is somewhere between her 20s and 30s. And the second is a young girl between ages eight and 10. Oh, were they related?

Oh my God, were they related? Oh my God. We'll get to it. So the remains were largely decomposed, but investigators were able to determine that they both suffered lethal blunt force trauma to the head. And that was presumably how they had passed. There was nothing inside the barrel that could point to their identities. And because only a few thousand people called Allen's town at New Hampshire home, there were no

outstanding missing persons cases. And so they really weren't sure who this could be. Police began going door-to-door asking residents for anything unusual they may have seen, any missing family or friends in another town who maybe could be these missing, who matched the description of these of these bodies, anything that they could find to point them in the right direction, but unfortunately they got nowhere and eventually a local business donated a headstone so that they could at least lay the child and the woman who they assumed to be the mother to rest because they said, you know, even if we don't find out who this is, we want to at least give them

a proper burial and give them the respect they deserve, even if we don't know their names. So they were buried without names and the years ticked by and the case went cold. They just had no other angles to pursue. So meanwhile, investigators in Allenstown did not know that this story was still unfolding all the way across the nation, 3,000 miles away in Scotts Valley, California. This is almost like a simultaneous part of the case is going on all the way across the nation in an RV park. And in 1986, a year after the barrel discovery in New Hampshire, a man named Gordon Jensen moved to the RV community here in Scotts Valley along with his five-year-old daughter Lisa. The two of them lived in the small camper on the back of his pickup truck while he worked

as the neighborhood's general handyman. Lisa, the daughter, was well known in the community. She spent her days running around playing with the other kids, the daughter, was well known in the community. She spent her days running around, playing with the other kids, the other families while her dad worked. But some people, this makes my heart hurt a lot. Oof, sorry, that just hit me. Some people noticed that they would hear Lisa crying in her camper at night. And yeah, and adults started to notice that Lisa seemed underfed and that Gordon wasn't

giving her new clothes or bathing her very often. And when other parents asked about, you know, where's the child's mother, he told different stories about how she had died. He told different neighbors different things. He said she died of cancer. Then he told someone else she died in a traffic accident. And so nobody had a really clear understanding of what had happened, but he framed it as like,

oh, we're just all in our lonesome after her mother passed away tragically. And he can't keep his story straight, I guess. So one day Gordon finds out that a neighbor of his, Catherine and Richard Decker, they mentioned their daughter has been having trouble conceiving and has been trying to have a child. And so Gordon says, hey, listen, Lisa is a little girl and you know her well, why don't like I'm heading out of town for about three weeks,

why don't you guys take her under your wing for a couple of weeks? Your daughter can kind of have like a trial run of having a little kid in the house and you guys can watch her while I'm out of town. It's like a win-win. And so they say, you know what, that's a great idea. They drive Lisa over to their daughter's house

and they're like bits of safe and loving home. We're gonna take great care of her until you come back. And Gordon stayed behind. So Gordon goes off on his three week trip allegedly and he never comes back. Oh, he just said, see ya. Well, okay, so should I make guesses or should I keep quiet?

You can guess. Is this also Terry slash Big Bob and he has just ditched another family member? Yep. Okay, well, it sounds like he's got, there's one thing he's really good at and it's being a piece of shit, okay. Yeah, you know what, Em?

You're right, we do deserve to get, he does deserve that credit. Yeah. Okay, great. He does deserve the credit of being a terrible person. So Gordon says, yeah, I'll be back in three weeks. Never fucking returns. And so now that Lisa is with this kind of like loving, protective, safe family,

they notice she starts displaying behaviors common among abused children. And they think to themselves, okay, well, he hasn't come back yet, like what do we do? So they seek professional assistance. They're trying to contact Gordon. They're trying to finalize an adoption, but like Gordon is MIA so they don't know how exactly to handle

this, but he's gone and so authorities get involved. They start looking for this guy, Gordon, who's abandoned his daughter. They take, they go around and since he was a handyman interestingly, they go around to the the trailers that he worked on and they were able to pick up prints off of like, I think a VCR that he had helped fix in a different trailer. Yeah, so they managed to get his fingerprints, thank God. And I will say also, as this was going on,

they did find out, they took her to a doctor, of course, because she was kind of clearly showing signs that things had been going very badly and it turns out he had been sexually abusing her. Oh fuck. That's why it really really really really makes my stomach hurt. I get it now. I thought that she was crying.

I really thought. I mean she was crying. Oh. I really thought... I mean, she was crying, but yeah. Yeah, but now we know why, because I think I just thought, oh, she's just being neglected, which is so bad, but not that. It's bad, but it almost is like... And he did that on top of just fully neglecting her. And so, of course, like...

They're horrified. And now police definitely want to find this fucking guy because A, he's apparently abandoned this small child. Secondly, I said A and then secondly, whatever. A, B, one, two, three. They also are like, well, this fucking guy has been molesting and sexually abusing this child, so we need to find him. So that is when they're going door to door

to find fingerprints, and they are able to pull off a fingerprint from one of the neighbors. I think it was a VCR, if I remember correctly. And just to remind everyone, Lisa is fucking five years old. Like this is so sick. It's just so sick.

Such a sweetheart. So she is, thank God, left with this good family, right? And he just is out of her life, thankfully. So they find these fingerprints finally, and they run them through the system, and they match a name. But the weird part is they don't match Gordon's name, they match the name Curtis Kimball.

Oh, God damn it. I was expecting Big Bob. I know, I was waiting for you to say it, and then me say a totally different name. But yeah, the name that comes up when they run the prints is Curtis Kimball. And Curtis Kimball had been arrested and his fingerprints were in the system after he was arrested for a drunk driving incident. And that had actually happened while Lisa was in the vehicle. So the authorities trying to track Gordon slash Curtis as they know him down had no way of knowing that he had a third identity, Bob Evans, and also a fourth identity, Terry Rasmussen.

So they don't even realize because they have this Curtis guy in the system with his prints, they're thinking, oh, that's his original identity. They don't even know that he has two more before that. So in 1988, he is finally captured and arrested because he's driving a stolen vehicle. And when they arrest him and ask for his information, he tells them his name is Gerald Mockerman. This man, does he just come up with it on the fly? Or like, cause I mean, some of these- He must, he must, He literally probably looked across the street

and saw like 899 homestyle meals and was like, my name is Bob Evans. Now that's just about the funniest thing that could have been said on this episode. How else can you be coming up with this shit? Like, come on. I don't know, I don't know. But yeah, he's making shit up.

He's making up names left and right. How do you even like keep up with, I mean, a name like Mockerman. Like you have to remember that. I feel like that's not like my name is. Like, Bob Evans, Bill Evans, Bob Evans. Maybe that's why he did Bob Evans first. He's like, I can remember I can remember Bob Evans. Like that one is easy.

Yeah. The something Mockerman. I'm like, oh, you either are getting overly confident or overly desperate or both. Yeah, or both. Yeah, and I will say also with unlike the other ones with Gerald Mockerman, he actually had a social security number

linked to that name. So he had actually like faked a real identity this time, not just a name, but he actually actually like faked a real identity this time, not just, you know, a name, but he actually had gotten paperwork. Yeah. So his other aliases as Gordon and Curtis were confirmed and he was put in jail, um, in prison for a year and a half for the child abandonment charges. And they actually, which is kind of fucked up, and they talked about it on Sinisterhood, they agreed to drop the sexual assault or the molestation charges against Lisa, and then instead just put him away

for the child abandonment. And, you know, of course, the way they discussed it on Sinisterhood is that Heather said, I'm sorry, that Christ Christie said, you know, that's so fucked up. Like I can't like the fact that they would just like drop the molestation charges and do nothing, even though they had evidence that he was sexually abusing her. But then Heather made a really good point. And she's an attorney. So she, you know, knows more than I do about this kind of thing, but she made a really good point that like, there may have been a fear of him getting away with it if they tried to charge him with the molestation,

and maybe Lisa, as a small child, wasn't ready or willing to speak on the stand or testify, you know, who knows? Maybe there wasn't enough solid evidence, and so they just wanted him to be put away one way or another without that reasonable doubt. So, you know, I can see it both ways, but it is very disheartening that they dropped the child molestation charges. Yeah. Especially when it was pretty clear that that had happened. I mean, also imagine her growing up and being like, oh, so he just got to get away with that. I just never got any validation or yeah closure on that yeah it must be a very odd feeling. It's got to be extra wild of like oh not only did I not get validation but like I actually did get validation and then they like opted to ignore it you know.? To dismiss it almost, yeah.

And so I imagine that was very tough, but also I can imagine it would have probably also been very traumatizing for her to go up on the stand and confront him as a little kid. So it's like, I don't know the details of all that. I think it's definitely worth noting because I think it's perfectly reasonable to get kind of up in arms.

Like why would they drop that charge and not the abandonment charge? You know, like why would they not go after? So, you know, who knows? But I just thought Heather made a good point about that. But in any case, Lisa had no legal guardian and the Deckers, despite treating her as their own child, never officially adopted her.

And so they were forced to surrender her into protective custody. And Lisa's life once again was turned completely upside down. And meanwhile, literally like less than two years later, Terry is released on parole in 1990. And wouldn't you know it, he immediately flees and becomes a fugitive. What?

I know. I think Heather said, like, he doesn't stay in contact with his PO? What? It's like, how can he stay in contact with his own fucking name for 10 minutes? Or family, I was gonna say. It's like he literally has-

Yeah, or family, right. He literally refuses to do anything right. So it would be shocking if he actually was a good citizen at the end. A hundred percent. Like he's literally doing the opposite of everything he should be doing. So I'm not surprised one tiny bit,

but yeah, he immediately flees when he's released on parole and he would remain in hiding for a full decade after this. We are skipping from 1990 to the year 2000. Oh my god, the future. Oh my god, we're in Y2K. What a time to be alive. And a new investigator is assigned to, get this, the Allentown, New Hampshire barrel cold case in the woods. Oh god. Yeah. So we're jumping back. We're star wiping the other direction. We're going back to New Hampshire. Where did you learn the word star wipe? Because it is really, it makes me laugh.

I mean, it makes sense what you're talking about. I get it. But like a big star wiping across the screen, like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like transitioning to another scene. But I, so it's like, yeah, it's like an actual name for that effect. Is it? I did not know that, Christine. Yeah, on PowerPoint, remember when we would do like,

what do you call it? Oh, it was... Custom effects. It's called Starway. Yes. You know, I would give anything, Christine, to just have a day in a computer lab and just make a PowerPoint using WordArt. And man, but like by say, like in a computer lab and just make a PowerPoint using WordArt

and man, but like by say like in a computer lab, I do mean in the year 1999, maybe 2001. Other than that, I don't want it. But like- We should just do that. Like as we know, time travel is real and I feel like they'll let us do like a quaint little adventure like that, right?

You know what? It's not going to hurt anyone. Okay. But imagine one day when time travel is more like, you know, when capitalism pops off with time travel, imagine one day you decide like you pick a, you pick a theme for the day and like, that's how let's like your, instead of like, Oh, we're going to go on like a food tour and try a bunch of stuff, you just do like a time tour of a category.

So it's like, oh, I wanna go to a computer lab. And then you spend every day like spending an hour in a different decade doing the same thing over and over on different technology. It would be so fun if it was like- And then you go back to school in 2045 and you're like, here's my presentation. Here's a PowerPoint from-

And I finally got that A. I finally got it. That is so fun. I can't wait for that. We're gonna have so much fun. It'd be fun if you had like, you use like the very first like Microsoft, like Windows 95 or like we can go even further back.

Like what was a presentation before, you know let's just type it out on a typewriter. We can do whatever we wanted. And then you get to early 2000s Y2K with the big bubble colorful IMAX. Then you go even first. Then you go to like the first laptop. I mean, it would be also actually so educational

because imagine how like these kids these days, so ungrateful, they have no idea. Make them fucking type on a typewriter without messing up a perfect paper. And then they'll be like, wow, I'm so glad I have this thing that I don't have to do this again. No spell check, baby.

We'll call it the, hmm, it's gotta have a name, but it's something about just learning to appreciate what you fucking have. Let's call it the Eros Tour. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh.

Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Let's. Oh.

Let's. Let's. Oh. Oh. I don't think that's taken. Okay, but imagine, okay, last thing I'm gonna say, imagine if you can AIM through different time travel situations, because what if you're AI, AIIM through different time travel situations,

because what if you're someone who only gets to live up to the year where there's like the big Apple IMAX, but we get to live in an era with MacBook Pros. If you could only like message each other from across the timelines and be like, Oh, I'm so glad I'm not in your situation. That sounds like it'd be really rough on that computer. Or then there'd be like, then there'd be like hijacking jobs where it's like, hey, person from like 2030,

could you actually type this up? It'd be a lot faster if you use AI compared to if I do it by hand, I'll pay you $50,000, blah, blah, blah. And then all of a sudden, you've got yourself a business. And then you're like, oh my gosh, I've heard about NFTs. Can you send a few my way?

I'll print them out. It's like, no, that's not how they work. It spirals very quickly into like, oh, do you have any suggestions on stocks for the future? Like, you know, very quickly. Black market. Like it immediately becomes like terrible things are gonna happen.

But in theory, it's really delightful. And I actually love the idea. I would love to live in the first 48 hours of that time before someone ruins it. Absolutely, just a free for all. Like how fucking fun. We would have, Em, we would have? It would be a lawless land. So much. It would be lawless in the best way for a little bit and then it would be lawless in only bad ways. At first it would be really fun. Keep in mind too, I don't know what the red tape is if like the government can like blacklist

certain days or years that you just can't travel to, but like you can skip them into further parts of the future or something. But like imagine, because what I say, I would love to have those first 48 hours, but time travel exists. You could have those first 48 hours over and over and over and over again. Oh wait, that's so true. Unless you only get like sick leave or something And you only get certain days a year like you only get like in a lot of them I think of time that you can travel time travel the time travel

It's like oh I get two weeks that I'm going to use for six years And then I'll go we gotta work through this two weeks ago I'm gonna research this later Okay, you tell me what you're gonna look up I'm gonna research this later. Okay, you tell me what you're gonna look up. I know you've researched time travel a lot, but I feel like I need to catch up to your knowledge level so that I can really get in the weeds with you on this.

Because I feel that it would be possible, and I feel that it is. I don't think you need't know about it yet. I don't think you need to research a damn thing. I think you just need to hit that delta eight or whatever you were talking about and we'll come back to this. Oh, the delta, I was like, okay, delta, got it, delta.

Isn't it delta eight, is that what you take? Yes, delta eight, yes, sorry. Or delta nine or whatever. I thought you were talking about like spirit airlines and I was like, I don't think it's that kind of travel, Em, but maybe I'm wrong. And it's- No, it's that kind of travel, man.

You know what I'm saying? It's that kind of travel. Yeah. Cerebral travel. Okay. So in any case, let's get back to this nonsense. We time traveled to the year 2000. And- Oh, right. since he, we time traveled to the year 2000. And in the year 2000, a new investigator is assigned to the cold case of finding the barrel

in Allenstown, New Hampshire in Bear Brook State Park. So this new investigator, he's going through, he's looking through cold case, the files from this cold case and he's like, is there anything that was missed? You know, fresh eyes. And he goes, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna go back to the spot where the barrels were found and see like maybe is there, did we miss anything? Is there like maybe some clue,

maybe even just for his own knowledge to look around the area and feel like he can picture it, visualize it. So for whatever reason, he decides to drive on down there and he returns to the site where the remains were discovered. And now this had been 15 years ago that that barrel had been discovered. So he starts walking around through the woods

and suddenly he discovers something that shocked him to his core. He found a second barrel. Shut the fuck up. He's gone back to the scene of the crime, just as cold case has opened it back up. Are you kidding me? But wait.

Hold that thought. So he discovers a second barrel of the same type with plastic inside. And inside... By the way, imagine you're just there for a cold case, like maybe there's a shoelace I missed or something, like a cigarette on the floor. And you get a flaming... Two more bodies? Anyway.

Also, like, I can't, like, again, if I were reading a script, I'd be like, this would not happen. Like, don't... This wouldn't happen. That's ridiculous. It wouldn't happen once, and it certainly wouldn't happen twice, 15 years apart, just as the cold case opens up. Like, that's too perfect.

So, inside this barrel are the skeletal remains of two more victims, both, this is very sad, young girls between one and four years old. And they too have been killed by blunt force trauma to the head. However, based on the rate of decomp, this barrel had been there as long as the other barrel had been there. What? So this guy's playing a fucking game. Was he just like... Was it stored somewhere and he dragged it out just to fuck with them What what does this mean it was there all along? They just missed it. How do you miss a whole barrel of bodies?

Where was it? Was it in a cave? Like what did they know it's like a few? I think a few hundred yards away, but it's just there was such a and you know There's a lot of debate on this, like how could they have missed it? But you know, and then the other argument is like, well, this is a really heavily wooded area, and you know, we looked in this many yards, we didn't look, you know, I don't know exactly

where everybody stands on this, but they somehow have completely missed a fucking second barrel of bodies nearby and from the same murder as the one from 1985. Which now makes me think I would be so damn paranoid about the entire Woodland acreage. I'd be like, there's gotta be just drop points everywhere. Oh, I hope they looked again really thoroughly next time.

Me too, like I was like, if this happened a third time, I would just lose, I'd leave my job because I'm clearly not good at it. Just tape, yeah, exactly. Like I'm seeing myself out, you don't even need to fire me. But yeah, they basically discovered like, first of all, no, it's not a recent crime. So it couldn't be like a copycat serial killer who's like just copying the same method.

And it's not even recent at all. It indicated that it happened when the other barrel had been dropped there. So these two children, these little girls were victims of the 1985 murder and the barrel had just been missed. And thank God that this guy decided to go back to the scene and like look around because otherwise probably nobody would have ever found it or connected it. But they did eventually find it, thank God, and they felt this might open up some new leads, you know? Now they have a mother, felt this might open up some new leads. You know, now they have a mother, what they presume to be the mother,

and three daughters rather than just one mother, one daughter. So now the town is like extra horrified because they've already gone through this process of having a mother daughter discovered in a barrel 15 years ago, and now suddenly, wait, there's two more children buried in the same way. And so they look into it, but once again,

they cannot find any missing persons reports aligned with like a mother and three kids. So you asked earlier about who was related to whom, and I will say DNA would eventually determine that of the three children discovered in the barrels, one child was not related to the other two children. Okay. So one child had no DNA connection,

but then the three, three of them were related, the mother and two children. Okay. But then one child had no DNA connection with the other three. This makes me wonder, like, I maybe you'll tell me eventually, but. This makes me wonder, like, maybe you'll tell me eventually, but, like, it makes me think, like,

what was the story to how they died? Like, it feels like it was almost an impulsive, oops, I didn't see this coming and now I have to hide the bodies, versus, like, an intentional, I'm gonna go be me versus three people, and maybe their friend or a random other fourth person. I think you might actually... Yeah, I think you might actually get some answers on that, truly. three people and maybe their friend or a random other fourth person? I think you might actually get some answers on that, truly.

I don't have a very solid answer, but I think when you hear the rest of the story, you might get an idea of how it went down. Or we can at least speculate. So meanwhile, same year, 2000, as the second barrel is discovered, there's a woman named Eun-sun Jun and she begins dating this guy named Larry Vanner in Richmond, California. And Eun-sun was born in South Korea, July 31, 1957. She graduated from Pacific Grove High School in California. She got both a bachelor's and graduate degree at the University of California at Davis

and UC San Francisco. She worked as a chemist and a medical researcher for various pharmaceutical companies, very smart woman. She also worked at the City of Hope Hospital in Los Angeles. She was just a very well-loved person in the community. She was friendly, she was bubbly. Those friends who knew her described her as a free spirit. She loved to travel and learn about other people's cultures and experiences. And her best friend, her name was Renee Rose. Now Renee had met

Onsun in a ceramics class and later described Onsun as the closest friend she ever had. ceramics class and later described Onsen as the closest friend she ever had. They made pottery together in a community center in Richmond, California. And according to Renee, Onsen's adventurous spirit, uh, became a little more, uh, how do you call it? Dimmed or became less prominent when men were around. She was shy around men. She'd be like very open and bubbly. But timid, yes, she was more timid around men. But she had always wanted love and romance.

She just like wished for that romantic love, that connection. She wanted a love story of her own. But now she's in her early 40s, she hadn't met the one and her friends, as they describe it, noticed that she started kind of opening herself up to men that she maybe wouldn't have considered in the past, just because she was kind of looking for a relationship,

and by that, her friends met, she was kind of lowering her standards, and some of the men that she was meeting didn't quite treat her the way that she deserved and As a friend, you know, you we've all seen that and it's not it's not a fun feeling to be in the middle of a friend you care so deeply about and then trying to Protect them but also to be like them. It's it's a girl. You're dimming your light

The bar does not need to be in hell. You're dimming your light. Come on. Pick it up. Pick it up. Love yourself. That's a great way to put it. But it's also hard because you don't want to alienate them by pushing them away. And so it's a very hard balance.

Sure. But either way, she met this guy Larry Vanner. And in 2000, she introduces her family and friends to this new boyfriend. And apparently, nobody fucking likes him immediately. They do not appreciate him. They don't like his manners. Like, apparently he's just gross. He's very narcissistic, very self-involved. I remember there was one story about, I believe it was Onsen's sister, who it was either Renee, her friend Renee, her sister,

opened the door at like a holiday, I think Thanksgiving and said, like, oh, she saw Onsen was so happy to see her. And then Onsen introduced her to her boyfriend, Larry. And this person said, I couldn't even shake his hand. I've never felt so. Just in my gut, like this is a bad person. Like just that like primal fear, you know?

Like she said, she opened the door and just thought, I've never looked someone in the eye and thought like this is bad news. And apparently this was a running feeling amongst her friends and family. And she really struggled with this because she was very close with her friends and family and And she really struggled with this because she was very close with her friends and family and she wanted them to like him.

But they sure did not. And he apparently would like sit at the table and just like. Devour food and then just like belch and like not offer anybody like he's almost trying to be gross. Yeah, apparently he's just like a douchebag. Like he just shows up and he's like, I don't give a shit about you or your family. You know, like he just seems like a, just a self-involved shithead.

And so they're all like, girl, what are you doing? Like you deserve so much better. But of course, as we've also seen with, I think most people have, or at least, you know, friends of friends, Bunsen quickly started to grow distant from her friends and family. She began speaking to them less and less.

Some sources say there was, you know, an argument that took place and Unsun left. We don't really know, like left the holiday party with Larry, we don't really know. But either way, they went off and her family would never see her again. So pretty quickly after this kind of rocky introduction, Renee was trying to get a hold of Onsun because they're best friends

and they used to talk all the time. She would call though and Larry would always pick up and he always had a different excuse as to why Onsen couldn't speak to her. And when Renee, as he had hoped would not happen, Renee continued calling. Like she was not gonna be polite about it. She just kept calling and saying let me speak to her and of course this was well before any sort of tracking or cell phones or Yeah, but let's be clear. That's she's a real one. Like that's the yes

Yes, it's like get me her on the phone right now or else. Well, you know what she's also So touching is like now if you look, if you read the articles about Onsun, like you can see pictures of Renee still like giving interviews about her and saying like she was my best friend and she's born in the 50s. So like probably 70 ish now.

And so, you know, it's just, it's really, it's tragic, but it's like a beautiful thing. They had a very strong bond. But she also, and she was, it's just, it's really, it's tragic, but it's like a beautiful thing. They had a very strong bond. But she also, and she was, I'm assuming, one of the people who was like, my primal instinct has kicked in that this man is bad news from the beginning. And now she's like,

You know what's so funny is like, some people have described him as like charming and like disarming, but then a lot of people are like, no, like he gives off every red flag. and disarming, but then a lot of people are like, no. He gives off every red flag. So I wonder if some people just didn't see it. I mean, Renee probably strikes me as someone who's like, no, I'm gonna vet this one.

But I'm like- Renee strikes me as your Renee, who's like- As Renee. I know. I know I'm biased, but I'm like, I don't think Renee was gonna let anything slide. No. And also, by the way, Renee is such a powerful name,

because also I think about like, Nae Nae, my boss, she was also like that. Like, I feel like every Renee is, a force is like an understatement. It's like, you don't get even a chance to fuck with a Renee. Like, it's just not gonna happen. They're gonna light you on fire. I have a Leona Renee downstairs,

and that is frightening thought. You could have given her any name, and you said- I a Leona Renee downstairs, and that is frightening. That's your fault. You could have given her any game and you said... I knew what I was doing. Let's be real. I knew what I was doing. Um, yeah. So this Renee is being a real Renee in the best way. And she keeps calling and she's like, she's like, no, let me talk to Unsun.

And he keeps saying, oh, actually, so he's coming up with all these excuses, right? Suddenly he starts telling her, oh, actually, Unsun doesn't love you anymore and doesn't wanna speak to you anymore and doesn't wanna be your friend. Pfft. Please.

And Renee went, I will literally go over there and let you on fire. Just fucking tell me where she was at. Literally Renee said, okay, sure, guy, and then said, how about I believe that when she tells me to my face that she doesn't wanna be my friend? That's Renee for you.

Yeah, he's pissed off, because he's like, she will not drop it. So she doesn't believe him, obviously, and she says, I want Onsun to tell me she's done with our relationship now to my face, or I'm calling the sheriff immediately. And Brene was like, I don't even need Unsun to speak with me directly over the phone. She's like, how about, she's like, I'm going on a 10-day vacation. How about during this 10 days, you just have Unsun call and leave a message on my answering machine.

Just like that, that enough will make me feel better. And he's like, sure, of course I will, totally. So she goes on her trip and she comes home. Not a single message from Unsun, obviously on her answering machine. So she goes straight to the county sheriff. And this guy attempts to do a routine welfare check on Unsun and, you know,

didn't see her at the house. And so Renee was able to report Unsun as a missing person. When Larry was interviewed about maybe where Unsun could be, he continuously changed his story. He started making up new ones. He said Unson had recently discovered or had experienced a nervous breakdown and He's like, well, you can't come over because if you come over then she'll have another Breakdown another nervous breakdown and they're like, hmm. I feel like they're like we'll risk that but thank you Yeah, I think I think we'd rather risk that to make sure she's alive. But sure. Thanks for your input and rather risk that to make sure she's alive, but sure, thanks for your input. And one detective on the case said Larry was polite and soft spoken and very smart. And with his twinkly blue eyes, he could get somebody to maybe trust him.

See, that's the thing. It says blue eyes. It's the blue eyes. It's the blue eyes. Yeah, there's something about it. Y'all are privileged and there's something I just I don't care who you are man woman non-binary Blue eyes, I'll believe nearly anything you say there's something Oh, that's a dangerous thing to to announce to the world and I'm telling you

I think I would have maybe fallen for the even if I had a bad feeling about this guy I would have seen the blue eyes and I would have had to shake myself out of the delusion I think I would have been the blue eyes and I would have had to shake myself out of the delusion. I think I would have been siren lulled in. It's so funny, because I only feel that way. I don't have a thing about blue eyes at all. I'm very much like a... The greener.

Greener brown. The greener, the more toxic they are to me. That part's dangerous. The green is dangerous. Agreed. But blue, green, I mean, it's just so opposite of what I have that any of it really works on me, but man, a But blue, green, I mean, it's just so opposite of what I have that any of it really works on me.

But man, a green eye is just, I mean, you might as well just put me out of my misery. I'm going to just fall for it all. I'm going to follow them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Green eyes will get me too. I'll follow them to battle. Yeah. Yeah, apparently he had very like, okay, so the way Heather was like on the sinister,

it was like, he looked like he was startled awake by an alien, like in every photo, which I was like, what a very specific visual. What's it called? Yeah, yeah, here, let me get it. Should I look him up or you send me? Oh, well, you can look him up. Terry Rasmussen, T-E-R-R-Y, R-A-S-M-U-S-S-E-N.

And then go to images, cause it's like decades worth of photos. I kind of get what she's saying. I don't know if he woke up from an alien, but I feel like he does. He looks as lulled by an alien as I would be lulled by green eyes. I would say he looks kind of like he woke up as an alien.

Yes, that's a good way to put it. He almost looks like he kind of came from some other planet. But I think we're onto something because you know what it is? I think it's like the uncanny valley of like no soul behind the eyes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's almost like, you know, when some people, well, maybe it's me, because I just do so much of this,

but when I like look up, when I see the picture of a person that I'm studying or researching who's done like some really, really horrible, horrible stuff like this guy, I will see the photo and I will like have to scroll away. Like I don't even wanna look at it. Like it's like turns my stomach almost. And some people I don't even want to look at it. It turns my stomach almost. And some people I feel like I kind of look at

and I'm like, ugh, what a dickhead. But some people I see their photo and I go like, I don't even want them on my screen. I don't want to look them in the eye. That's how I feel about Charles Manson. I can't, that guy is... Oh, yeah. It's the wily something is up look.

I think it's also when they're smiling, I get like really upset. I'm like, I do not want to look at you smiling. Like it makes me sick to my stomach. But yeah, that's how I feel about this guy. Just, I don't even want to look at him. Yeah, looking at the one picture of him where his eyes are obviously blue,

I would not describe them as twinkling. I would describe them as... Yeah. ...a blank. A force. They're pulling you, but maybe in a wrong direction. Yeah, which is exactly what they did. I think, um...

Luring. Like the way Unson described... Yeah, they're very alluring. And I think Unson described them as... And, you know, being Korean, she also had darker hair, darker eyes. So maybe it's the same effect, Em, where you're like, wow, I'm just like mesmerized

by these blue eyes. Mesmerized, that's a great word. Mesmerized. And I wanna be clear to those who don't know what we look like. I'm sure many of you have not checked out photos of us because you're not nosy as fuck like I am when I listen to podcasts, but none of us have,

well, I don't have blue eyes, I have brown eyes. So when you heard Em say, oh, people with blue eyes, like it's none of us on our team. So, you know, go at it, go for it. If Christine had green eyes and those shoulders, we'd be in trouble. But luckily it's only one, thank God. Maybe I'll be like the guy in Pants Labored

and I'll have green eyes and I'll put them on my shoulders. Hahahaha! Christine, you are having- Isn't this what you wanted? You're having a real day of zingers. Case of the Mondays. You really are pulling out all the stops today with, I mean, well done.

I just don well done. I just don't know. Oh, Amathy. Anyway, so this detective, she says basically like, yeah, I could see why a woman might fall for this, might fall for his like kind of sparkling eyes that look. But being the detective on the case, she does not trust him one tiny bit. So as the case progresses, they ask, oh, do you mind if we take your fingerprints? Since this is just no big deal and yada yada.

We just like, we'd love to have them on file, you know, just in case. This motherfucker says, sure, you can have my fingerprints. Oh, like he has to know. And again, like I know I've just switched to calling him Larry because Unson knew him as Larry, but this is still to be clear, Terry, Bob. I mean, is it just confidence? Is it just like the the cockiness that they've all got? So actually, I believe which I've heard on a few podcasts is not my theory,

but I believe the speculation that he didn't realize that over the years, technology had advanced enough that they could run it right there. And a lot of people think he just wanted to be amicable and like agreeable, and then he was just gonna bounce. But he didn't realize that they could take his fingerprints, go in another room on a computer presumably,

and actually run the fingerprints and find out then and there, wait, why does it say your name is Curtis? You know? And so they fingerprint him. He has to know it won't end well, but he doesn't, he gives in anyway. And the Prince come back as Curtis Kimball and the notes about Curtis Kimball say he's a fugitive parolee once imprisoned for child abandonment. So there's this recording of an interview and the investigators ask him like hey do you do any of these names ring a bell? They say uh do you recognize Curtis? Do you recognize Gordon?

He says, no. And they're like, well, you are those people. So your fingerprints match. You're Gordon, Curtis and Larry. However, they don't realize he's actually Terry Rasmussen. They still have not figured out that there's like this, there are more aliases behind the aliases. You know, I always feel like, you know, my expertise extends towards law and order SVU,

but when they're like, we got them all three aliases. And I'm like, if he had three, why do we think there was not a fourth? Why? What are we doing here? Should we like, should we check for more? It's just only when he's pretending like we've crossed the finish line. Like they're just getting noted when something arrest worthy or a crime occurs. That's it. But like, who knows if he wasn't caught or did something nobody knew about? Well, maybe we never found out the name. So,

and there are a few blanks in the years of his timeline that are unaccounted for because it was just so long ago that like, who knows? He could have had tons of aliases. But at this point they're thinking, oh, this is really Curtis, not Larry, whatever. So he's arrested for violating his parole and the detectives decide to search his home for Unsun because he's saying, oh no, she had a nervous breakdown,

don't come over. And they're like, we're actually going to arrest you and also go over. So they did. And they're looking around, they don't really see anything out of the ordinary. They do see like Unsun's pottery area and it appears to be untouched. However, in the house, there's no women's clothing, there's no shoes. Like it didn't appear like she was actively living there. And so they started to feel uneasy. The only sign of her, like I said, were those pottery projects that were unfinished

and untouched in the garage. And they're looking around and they find a crawl space. Oh God. Yeah. And in the crawlspace they discover a five foot pile of cat litter. Okay. So the cover up is now. Next to. Right. Yep. Okay. Yep. Next to the pile of cat litter is an axe covered in blood. Wow. He just really wasn't even trying to hide it.

Like also, by the way, like talk about stupid, stupid, stupid. I mean he shoved it into a crawl space, but that's it. But like you literally her mean best friend is literally saying, I'm going to call the police. Like don't you think maybe right now While I've got these ten days while she's on vacation before she calls the police. I should spend ten days Trying so that's what he'd rid of it. This that's what he did. This was his attempt This was the most did when he was trying to hide quote unquote lazy man thing of ever like oh all really

I'll fool them all just throw it into this one obvious crawl space instead of like, you put everything else in the fucking woods, like, at least try that. That's true. That's true. Yeah, you know, I don't, I don't know why, I can't really claim to understand the logic or the shift in logic there.

I wonder, well, okay, we'll get to it. So they're pushing the cat litter around, probably feeling like a horror movie, like anything, any moment something terrible is gonna happen. They were right. They push the litter around and they find a human foot that is still wearing a flip-flop sandal.

Of course, we know now this was Un-sun whom Terry had murdered some time ago, seemingly by blunt force trauma to the head. The cat litter, which by the way, I don't think it's in these notes, but when he went to buy that cat litter, like they also on the Bear Brook case, like having a whole, I don't want to say a whole episode, but they have a whole section where they talk about him going to buy that fucking cat litter. And he went to like multiple pet stores because he was looking for like pounds upon pounds upon pounds of cat litter. So he's basically carrying like 200 pounds of cat litter home. Like that's what I'm saying. Like expensive. I mean, not expensive. I mean, it is expensive, but I mean, heavy. That shit's expensive. I mean, not expensive.

I mean, it is expensive, but I mean heavy. That shit's heavy. He has to like bulk order cat litter, which by the way, if anyone's picked up a cat litter thing, those things are fucking, it's like 50 pounds for those big containers. And he bought like dozens of them. I feel like that's like,

he really just lucked out by like people not noticing things because he's doing a lot of things that are really cocky. You think about it, and I guess the guy who sold him the cat litter talks about, I mean, yeah, I thought it was really fucking weird, but what am I gonna do, call the police and be like, this guy bought a bunch of cat litter? It's like, you can't really arrest somebody for that.

So it's like, and back then, you know, there weren't really, there wasn't access to like background checking people or like following this guy and seeing what his deal is or looking him up on social media. So it's sort of like the guy who sold it to him said like, I just had to sell it to him. And later he came forward and said, the guy bought all that cat litter from me.

But like at the time, you know, he's just some weird eccentric old guy. Like, I mean, I guess I just don't know how, again, I don't know how I would get rid of a body. But if I had a 10 day head start, I like to think I'd do pretty okay for a second, at least, not like immediately upon arrival getting busted. It's like, I feel like, especially like cat litter,

like, yeah, I guess it absorbs one smell, but guess what? It still smells like fucking cat litter. And if you have hundreds of pounds of that, you don't get a smell of it. Okay, but also imagine that, you know, that dust that just gets everywhere. Yes. And also speaking on that segment

where they talk about this whole cat litter thing, he had actually told his next door neighbor, like just basically based on what you just said, I wanted to let you know had actually told his next door neighbor, like base, just basically based on what you just said, I wanted to let you know that he told his neighbor, Oh, um, don't don't worry if you smell some really bad smells coming from my house over the next few weeks, because I actually am redoing the basement, like some area of my basement or crawl space or whatever. And you know, some rats have been getting in. And since I'm patching it up, I think like they're bound to die in there.

And so there might be a smell for a little while. So he's already going around like telling people. If I were his neighbor, I'd have been like, what do you mean? Don't mind the smell. How about you don't mind bothering like for weeks? You're telling me for weeks, there's going to be the smell of death around my house. Get an air purifier. Like what's wrong with you? And also what a weird thing to say before you even know if a squirrel has died or a rat has died.

Like to say a rat might die in my house if you smell something. It's like, well, why would you even say that? Why wouldn't you wait for it to actually smell and then be like, oh, sorry, a rat got in, you know? It's just so weird to like preemptively tell somebody there might be a weird smell. I really think he was just like,

cause it sounds like everything he's done so far or like the ways he's gotten busted or the stories he's telling people, it sounds like I guess he's experienced at this cause he's done it so many times now, but like it still sounds like he's kind of half bumbling around and like only like thriving out of luck. Like it feels like- Yeah, so you know what? That's a great point because I feel like a lot but it still sounds like he's kind of half bumbling around and only thriving out of luck.

It feels like... Yeah. So you know what? That's a great point because I feel like a lot of people have described him as kind of a genius or... I wouldn't even say genius, but people have said, wow, he's just this criminal mastermind. But the way Heather and Kristy talked about him, they're like, he's not fucking smart.

He's just taking advantage of the fact... Doesn't sound smart at all. He's just taking advantage of the fact, doesn't sound smart at all. He's just taking advantage of the lack of technology at the time. He's taking advantage of people who have relationships that he can sever or try to sever by separating them from their families. He's finding people who are looking for love

and he can convince them that he's charming. He's taking advantage of these things, but he's not brilliant. Like, he's not some genius, you know? He's really actually not the brightest. Like, if you're a criminal mastermind, he could not be a serial killer today. He would have been found out in five seconds for that.

Like, you know what? I hate that I keep, like, awkwardly bringing them up. Like, I talked to them yesterday, but they said the same thing on the podcast, like, how serial killers like the ones in the seventies just can't operate like that anymore in a modern age because there are cameras, there are traits, everything's traceable. And so it's like a very different time. I feel like all this did and this for obviously only a niche group of really shitty men that

are serial killers. But I feel like in this, obviously only a niche group of really shitty men that are serial killers. But I feel like in this, you know, that group, but I feel like in this way, like this is just evidence like of how the patriarchy happens is like, yeah, because in the seventies, you could kill someone and get away with it. Like you got this weird bolstered ego and then like, I feel like it just like kind of gets passed on to like, oh, there's this really weird heightened sense of confidence you have when like really, maybe it's not for this time, you know? Yes, today it doesn't quite fly the same.

And of course we have our own issues with the rise of technology, like school shooters. So I'm not saying, oh, people can't like kill bunches of people anymore, you know, but he made a good point of like the way that they operated back then and like the age of the serial killer was just like moving around, changing your identity, separating people from their loved ones. Like there's just some things that they could do back then to take advantage of that they wouldn't be able to do nowadays,

or at least as easily. So you make a very, very good point there because I agree that he's a dumbass. Like just putting a fucking, like the reason that those barrels were not found is not because he was a genius. It's because like they just happened to be remote enough that it took a while for a kid on an ATV to find it. I mean, he literally put it in the middle of the woods.

Like he literally, in some ways he was hiding it and in some ways he was not at to find it. I mean, he literally put it in the middle of the woods. Like he literally, in some ways he was hiding it and in some ways he was not at all hiding it. Like he was actively putting it out in the open, right? And like, I don't know. It just, if someone who is saying, I'm gonna call the police, you have 10 days, my first thought would not be, let's take the still bloody ax

and just throw it under my house. Just toss it down with the dead squirrels that I'm gonna tell my neighbor about. Yeah, and then mix it up with a bunch of cat litter that everyone will notice. And like, that's not a genius. By the way, and he bought it, like, so it was 2,000, and I'm just like thinking back, like, of course, you know,

Amazon was either in its infancy, I think it was pretty early on, or at least like early stages, right? But like he went to a local small business pet store and was like, I need like 200 pounds of cat litter. And they're like, do you have a lot of cats? If you're that good, if you're, first of all, if you're willing to drive hours, I assume,

to get from location to location to buy out their stuff, if you're able to lift a dead weight 50 pound thing, why are you bringing all of it to your house? Why don't you take the dead body and fucking hide it in the woods again and get away with it like you've been doing so well? Like, why are you, I'm just, I think I'm just blown away by the like,

he literally had a head start and just did the laziest version of it because he thought and I also I'll be honest like this is Fully speculation off my part. I do not want I don't know This is just my opinion. My opinion is that he potentially had more victims because like I said there were periods of time where He was just kind of off the grid.

We don't know what he was up to. And he killed a lot of people and had no qualms about doing it. So what would make the years that we don't know about any different except that he was caught for the other ones? And so my thinking is like, if he put them in a barrel for that one,

maybe for the next one, he just dropped them on the side of the road and we just, he just was never caught. You know, maybe this was just like, he just always did something kind of half-assed and random, but this time. I think it's just a combination of like, for the time that was somehow easier to do was like just drop someone off on the side of the road in plain view and get away with it. And I think it was just his like laziness slash cockiness

of like, oh, well I've done it a million times, who's gonna notice now? And I just- Well, and if you think about it, they would never have known if Renee had not kept calling and saying I'm reporting her as a missing persons. They also would not have found her if he hadn't done a fingerprint,

and he didn't have to. Like, they... He was not... Like, he was not arrested. He was just being questioned, and he agreed to give fingerprints. If he had not done that, they would not have run his name and found out that he's this fugitive and gotten an immediate warrant to check his house. So, I'm like, honestly, he almost did get away with it. The way my anxiety... If I were killing one person, let alone this was just like my

passion project. If I were killing all of these people, the way I would be studying the updates and police technology to make sure I got away with it. And this guy's like, whatever. Every time I hear about an update, I'm like, oh, I hope they're shitting their pants. These old fuckers who haven't been caught. I hope they're, I hope they are, I hope they live the rest of their lives in terror that they're gonna be caught because technology, they would-

Again. And the daytime travel happens, they will be in big time, big time trouble. Big time trouble. Until you just go, dupe dupe, let's like, whoop, oh. Big time travel trouble. Yeah. No, but like the second that we could go, doop-doop-doop,

let's see what happened on this day in this location. Bloop. You're so fucked. I think about that all the time, all the time. Yeah. Not even in that just like serial killer sphere, which obviously is also something I probably would think about, but just in the idea of like, someday we'll be able to like go back.

Well, at least I think someday we'll be able to go back and be like, you know, those semantic arguments, like I said this, no, you said it this way. And I was thinking that the other day because Blaze and I got into like, oh, not an argument, but we were like, he's like, I told you. And I was like, no, you didn't. And we scrolled back through texts and he had like half told me, but like, then he's like, oh, I can see why you thought like

I meant something different. And I'm like, thank God for that text that we have written down because otherwise we'd sit here like, no, you're crazy. No, you're, you know. And so I sometimes I'm like, I wonder if one day will I be able to just go like rewind and like do a replay.

This is where I like to remind people that chat logs and text history is a form of time travel because you're traveling back through time just to prove something. Okay, Bill Nye. If you really think about it, we're always time traveling. So Blaze pulled a Marty McFly on you, I think. But yeah, I guess we are always time-traveling

We're just Him I said step aside let me get the fucking receipts and he was like, oh no Why do I argue with Christine this always happens? That she turns around and shouts about time travel and having the receipts anyway so But it was nice because at the end we were like, oh, I was like, oh, you did kind of say it. And he's like, oh, wow, I can see why you would have thought it the other way. And I was like, wow, is that what like a healthy relationship looks like? A healthy bickering looks like that we're like,

wow, I can see where you're coming from. Anyway, let's make dinner. It's like, well, that happens. It was a very powerful moment for me as someone who has not had many years of this life experiencing that, you know, in the past. I'm like, beautiful, beautiful moment. When he said that happens to me, I'm like, oh my God, wait, so we're not, we don't have to be mad for the next six days?

I get like really overwhelmed. I'm like, I love you so much. And he's like, okay. Yeah. I don't know. It just makes me, I'm like, wow, it's just so nice to have a moment of like, oh, we don't have to get our, we don't, we can just sit down now and watch a show. Like it doesn't matter. Anyway. It's crazy. If you know, you know. Um, okay. Just

girly things. Ha ha ha. Okay. Where, where are we? All right, so we are here. They have this cat litter. They are finding that there is a body within the cat litter. We know it is unsun. And the cat litter had apparently completely concealed any odor that would have come from human remains. And it also dehydrated the remains and they were described as almost mummified.

So in some ways, I've got to say, if he had a few more weeks, he probably could have just removed her, put her somewhere out of sight where the smell of decomp and all that wouldn't be noticeable. He could have really gotten away with it if it weren't for that pesky Renee. You know, because it had to happen just so that he was talked into giving fingerprints and that technology allowed them to run it that day and that Renee made that missing persons report. So yeah, they said it really like actually mummified the body, which is very disturbing. And Terry decided, which goes toward my hypothesis, Terry decided he was not

going to fight the charges at all. And he said, yeah, okay, I'll take a murder conviction. I'll go to prison. I'll plead guilty. He was, he was shaken. I bet. He was hiding something, right? Like he did not want them digging any further.

He's like, yeah, sure. I did that. Send me to prison. And it's like, well... No, I totally get why you would think... You just don't want people digging. ...that he's got more bodies then, because you're right, like, he...

Or, and I also think maybe it was part of his, like... I think it shattered the illusion that, like, you're not as smart as you fucking think you are. Like, maybe... Yeah, true, that's true too. Yeah. It's like, so maybe, like, just shut up and be happy that this is all we have on you. Well, and keep in mind, they still, in this year, 2000, think that he's Curtis. That's true too. Yeah. It's like, so maybe like just shut up and be happy that this is all we have on you.

Well, and keep in mind, they still in this year 2000 think that he's Curtis. Like that's his real identity. So they don't even know about all the other shit that happened before that. They have not even linked it. So he was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just put me to jail now. Got it. He's like, oh, oops, you caught me.

Put me away. And so, you know, the fact that he decided to just go straight to prison, don't pass go, made the detective on the case very uneasy. And she felt like, okay, well, obviously he's hiding something. Did you say she? I sure did. I sure did say she, although she is also the one who said he had like charming eyes or whatever. And I was like, I don't know. I also thought that. Maybe I didn't mean it.

Yeah, yeah, right. We kind of did end up coming to that conclusion. So she's probably onto something. But yeah, so she decides to dig into his child abandonment charge from the late 80s. Because like all they knew was that he went to prison for that. And then he fled during his parole. So she starts digging into the child abandonment just to see if like there are any to pull. And it had happened in the late 80s. So she begins to wonder this child, Lisa, like, is this even his child? So they do a paternity test and she was onto something

because it turns out Terry was not related to little Lisa at all. So this child he brought to the trailer park and was sexually assaulting in the back of the pickup truck or whatever every night was not his own child. So they're like, who the hell is she then? So in 2003, they opened an investigation to discover who 22 year old Lisa really is. And you know, they're still, they have Lisa because, you know, she had been in the system because she'd been abandoned and all this. And so she also agreed that she wanted answers about her past. So investigators began considering that like, maybe Terry had killed Lisa's mother and then taken Lisa. And that's how they ended up kidnapping. Exactly. So years went by without answers from Curtis Kimball.

That's how they knew him. And he ended up dying in prison in 2010. So in 2015, when Lisa and investigators discovered a new investigative angle, forensic genealogy, anyone? They discovered that they could get potentially some real solid leads. So they submit Lisa's DNA to Ancestry.com and Lisa is matched to a few distant fourth and fifth cousins. And now there's this renowned genetic genealogist, some of you may have heard of her. Her name is Barbara Rae-Venter and she does some

very very just incredible work. She actually was a massive piece of the investigation into the Golden State Killer. And she was the one who helped unmask him as being Joseph, or Joseph James D'Angelo. So she is like a champion at this, at doing this genealogy. And it's not just, you know, like matching DNA. And then she has to kind of know, her mind works in this way where she can say,

see a big picture, like if this is your second cousin, that means we may be able to link like your great, great grandmother too. So she has like a very- She knows the family tree inside and out. Yeah, she like- She knows every branch. She can read those patterns in a certain way

that like, I'm sure I could never learn. And so they get her involved. And so I just gave you that to kind of show she's like top of the top. And she had worked for a long time with adoptees to find information on their families. So she spent tireless hours building Lisa's family tree bit by bit. And she finally, based on just these like fourth and fifth cousins, and she finally discovers a close relative, a grandfather who lived in New Hampshire. So from this grandfather, investigators learned that his daughter, Denise Bowden,

had been Lisa's mother. So he's learning. He's like, Lisa is my granddaughter. And Lisa's like, Oh shit, that's my grandpa, my real blood grandpa. So she first she learns now that her mother's name was Denise Bowden. And Lisa finds out she had actually been born Dawn, D-A-W-N, Dawn Bowden in 1981. Wow. And so she's learning like a whole new identity for herself that she did not know, because this Terry had changed her name.

And I will say it was a relief to her for obvious reasons to find out that she was not related to Terry. Like it must've been a moment of relief, but then also like a little bit like overwhelming, like then who am I and where is my dad? And like, you know, it just opens more, it asks more questions than it answers. Also part of me wonders like what the conversations

looked like when she was was just recently kidnapped by him, and she was probably saying, like, my name's Dawn. And he was like... My name's not Lisa, yeah. Yeah, like I don't know what had to happen to convince her to play along, but I just... Yeah, and you think of the trauma that probably just blocks out the early stuff, you know? And it's just... Yeah, and you think of the trauma that probably just blocks out the early stuff, you know,

and it's just, yeah, it's horrible. So she finds out her given name is actually Dawn Bowden, but most people referred her as Lisa, and I'm just gonna keep using that name. Apparently, in talking to the grandfather, investigators learned that Denise Bowden, his daughter, had been dating a man that November of 1981 named Bob Evans. Okay.

Well, that'll do it. So Terry had been doing work in the area as an electrician and a repairman, and he sometimes worked for a camp store about 25 minutes away from Denise's home. And the camp store was located at Bear Brook State Park. So over Thanksgiving, Bob and Denise are at Denise's family's house, and Bob tells the family that they were in some trouble because they owed people some money. So they said, Bob told her family, hey, we're gonna leave town. Please don't try to contact us until we reach out

because we don't wanna be compromised and put in danger. So he's basically setting this up like, don't even try to talk to us or else you'll put your daughter in danger. It's like catch 22, you can't win. Yeah. So shortly after this had happened, Denise's father went to her house

to invite her over for Christmas. And this was, you know, right after Thanksgiving. But she had apparently already left town with Bob and her daughter without saying goodbye to her family, who was like completely devastated because she lived nearby and said like, hey, we're gonna leave for a bit, just wait for us to contact you.

And he went over there to invite her over for Christmas and they had already left within, I don't know, days of Thanksgiving. So just really grief-stricken, this family just thought, wow, they just up and left us. And when they asked- Sorry, did the grandparents ever, grief-stricken this family just thought wow they just up and left us did and Sorry did the grandparents ever they were alive to be able to tell the story so they get to meet Lisa then and like at Least finally granddaughter was alive

Yes, yes, okay. That's nice. Basically gained a new family out of it, which is really cool. Yeah so that is like the one silver lining of all this because suddenly Bob quote unquote and their daughter are, are gone. And the neighbors are saying they saw the couple packing up and leaving in a hurry. But Denise's family couldn't file a report because Denise wasn't legally missing and they'd already been told, Oh, we're, we're starting a fresh life somewhere because we're, you know,

so they can't even file a missing persons report because she's not legally missing. And she and Bob had told multiple people they were leaving town to start fresh somewhere new. So there really wasn't much the police could do. So Denise's family was essentially just left to wonder, like, why did Denise and Dawn never come back and see us? Like, don't they want to meet their grandparents? Like, don't they want to, you know, it's just,

they never knew, they never knew. Investigators showed Denise's father a photo of Gordon, who was the one that abandoned Lisa in California. And he said, yeah, that's Bob Evans, who left town with my granddaughter, my daughter, Denise, and my granddaughter, Dawn. And so then they're like, Oh boy, that's Lisa. Lisa and Dawn are the same person.

So a missing persons case on Denise was now open. And this was in 2016. This was 35 years after she left town with Terry Rasmussen. A case manager at the Center for Missing and Exploited Children looked at the last known location of Denise and Dawn and suspected a possible connection to the barrels discovered in the nearby state park. So suddenly somebody's like just kind of looking through some online information and says, wait a minute, this woman and daughter are both missing. Like now that this report is out, I can see their last known location. And this is right around where the barrels were found. So she's

starting to link these things together. So investigators exhumed the remains of the adult victim that they had buried in an unnamed grave. But her DNA did not match Lisa's. What? So the body did not belong to Denise. So is Denise alive? I do not think so. Okay, I didn't know if that was like the plot twist of this entry. Okay, so then who's this woman?

We'll get there. Okay, so investigators exhume the body. They are thinking this must be Denise. It is not Denise. However, they still remain convinced that Bob Evans is somehow linked to these barrels. So they compare his DNA to the remains found in the barrels, and they discovered that the child who was not related to the mom and two daughters was his own biological daughter. Oh. Oh. Well, okay, part of me is shocked,

but then another part of me is like, well, I guess we thought Lisa was his daughter and he was capable of that, So that's true. That's me Well, he was capable of assaulting her but not killing her I guess right? Yeah No, I'm good. No, he did not kill her. He just um Okay, I guess I parts part of me is surprised Wow Yeah, it was shocking. So they found out that one of the children in the barrels was his biological daughter. So they once again recruited Dr. Barbara, who made the final connection between Bob

Evans and Terry Rasmussen. So they had gotten back now finally to Bob and they had connected that to everything. But Dr. Barbara was able to say, Oh, I have his like birth name. It's Terry Rasmussen. And so at last they had his original identity. In June of 2017, the New Hampshire cold case unit met with Diane Klopfer, one of Terry's daughters from his first marriage. And she actually hadn't seen her father since she was about six years old and had no idea what he had done. And so to learn that... Yeah, she probably just was so excited to see her dad again and then find out what happened.

Yeah, I don't know if she wanted to see... Well, I don't know if she ever wanted to see her dad. Apparently he just left when she was six, so she just said, like, okay, bye. That was when he kind of came to the house and was like, well, I'm leaving with my new woman. And they were like, okay, congratulations. So I don't know that she like wanted to hear from him or anything,

but she was shocked to learn like, oh, he was a serial killer. Like that, you know, would surprise anyone. And she was very overwhelmed by this. But her mother had told her stories about her father growing up. Like he had once burned her brother with cigarettes when they were young children.

And she told interviewers, normal people don't do that. So agreed, one. And two, it sounds like probably she wasn't interested in having a relationship with him anyway. Okay. And she said, I don't know if my mother knew his capacity for violence, but I don't think she knew about this, his ability to kill women and children. So Diane had to kind of reckon with this realization that if her mother hadn't left Terry, she

and her siblings might have been victims just like seemingly his other children and family members. Seems like it. I mean, he's now that we know- To find out you have a half sibling who was found in a barrel and your father killed them. Yeah, it's not a far stretch to think that he could have also killed you. And in some way, part of you definitely has to grapple with the thought of maybe I'm so lucky my dad just left us because it could have been so much worse. Yeah.

Yeah. And so it's like a tough thing because you're like, well, on the one hand, he left and killed a bunch of people, but on the other hand, like it could have been me. So as more and more news started to break about this and the people he had killed, people started calling Terry the chameleon because he would just change these identities

and just start new lives all the time in different towns. And meanwhile, Dr. Barber continued her work. She read about a new DNA process which could extract samples from a hair shaft, because now you don't need the root anymore necessarily to get a DNA sample from hair. Fun fact. I had no idea. And so hair samples from the New Hampshire victims were sent in for DNA extraction. Now at the same time, a librarian named Becky Heath was just doing her own personal investigation of her own in her free time for fun.

So she was looking into this case, she spent countless hours researching it, pouring over online forums, reading posts by people looking for missing loved ones. And finally, she saw posts that she believed might be describing the woman and two children discovered in the barrels at Bear Brook State Park. So Becky reaches out to the person in this forum who had written this post and the post was asking, hey, I'm looking for this woman who vanished with her children and she married a man with the last name Rasmussen, but we never heard from her again. She goes, well that sounds like it may be linked to these barrels. So Becky and Dr. Barbara didn't know each other and they did not know that

simultaneously they were both putting together the final pieces of this fucking puzzle. In 2019 the news broke and investigators identified three of the four victims found in the barrels. They finally were identified. The adult victim was Marlise Honeychurch. The child found in the first barrel with her was her oldest daughter, Marie. The youngest child found in the second barrel was her second daughter, Marie. The youngest child found in the second barrel was her second

daughter, Sarah. Obviously tragic, but also like at least names given to these victims that have been buried without names for so long. Marlise's surviving siblings described her as bubbly, funny. They said she loved being a mom. She loved her children dearly. The two children were from separate marriages and Marlise was raising them after a divorce in 1978 when she introduced her family to her new boyfriend, Terry Rasmussen. That night, Marlise got into an argument with her mother

potentially about the age gap between Terry and Marlise, which was like 10 years. And so she stormed out of the house, left with Terry, and her family never heard from her again. And they thought she had just like straight up left and didn't want to be associated with the family anymore. Marlise's sister Roxanne said in an interview, I used to say one day they'll come walking through

the door or my nieces will come looking for their grandmother, but that never happened. And their mom basically lived with this incredible guilt for years thinking like that argument we got into made her leave us forever. She never came back. Like something I said, and I never saw my daughter again. And Marlisa's family searched for her for years, but they just kept hitting dead ends. So like Denise Bowden, she wasn't officially a missing person.

So they turned to the online forums and try to do their own investigation. And that's when the librarian saw this comment, this one comment in a forum, saw the name Rasmussen and went, wait a minute, I know who that is. So finally- What are the odds? And she's doing it on her own free time, just because. That's crazy.

Like just scrolling through to see if she can link anything. So finally, we had unraveled, not we, all these people, these heroes had unraveled all of these names, identities, victims. But of course, there were still questions. For example, one of the children that was discovered in the barrel was Terry's own daughter. But we to this day do not know her name. We do not know who her mother was. We do not know if her mother was also killed. And so, you know, we just don't know.

And it's really, really sad that she has to go unnamed. But investigators have hoped that somebody might come forward someday with information that, you know, will lead to a name. And just as recently as 2021, officials informed the press that examination of the genetic composition of the child and genealogy research suggests that the mother of the child has relatives in Pearl River County, Mississippi. So they are starting to find a few threads and they're hoping that by saying that somebody in the area might say, oh, well, we knew a guy who was in town and then took a child with him, you know, so maybe maybe they'll be able to finally

You know link a name to this poor child. I Wonder if I hope that can oh, sorry. Oh, oh, no I was gonna say I wonder if like I feel like he has to have another victim out there and that it's like the woman That's what I child with because there's no way that a woman isn't saying at the top of her lungs Terry Rasmussen took my kid unless he really exactly unless he faked his name again but like so then you think like well shit so then where's Lisa's mom yeah part of me thinks that maybe she's like maybe there was an accident and he... Maybe it was like his first kill, and then he like maybe just wanted custody of his kid

and then realized that he couldn't, you know, move as easily with her around or something. I don't know, but like, because it's interesting that his daughter, like everybody else seems to be like, buried with their child or their parent, except his own kid. So like, where's her mom? It's like two different locations.

Or like maybe he killed both, he could only carry the daughter and so brought her somewhere else, or I don't know. Yeah, you know, and I wanna add too, I realized I accidentally misspoke. I said, where's Lisa's mother? But that's Dawn. I'm sorry, Denise.

The Denise, yeah. Yes. But yeah, you're totally right. It makes you wonder all these missing pieces. Then who's Lisa's dad? And who's- Like, are there people that are still looking for her? Yeah, yeah.

Oh my gosh. It's just crazy. Yeah, it's crazy. Anyway, so they hope that they can construct a family tree again, and you know, this might lead them to any surviving family she may have. But what they do know is they believe, and again, this is coming out in the past couple of years, which is just so cool that these advancements keep happening. She is likely the fifth time or sixth time great grandchild of either Thomas Dead Horse Mitchell, born in 1836, or William Livings, born in 1826.

So they have those clues and they're hoping like over time they can piece the rest together. But unfortunately, oh, I was right, I'm sorry. I did not misspeak We did clarify the I'm so sorry the body in the barrel was not Denise Bowden We know Lisa's mom was Denise because his her grandfather said oh my daughter Denise. Oh, okay Okay, I'm sorry. I screwed it I I said it right earlier, but when they found the body in the barrel They were like, Oh, well,

this must be Denise. And then it was not Denise because the DNA did not match Lisa's. So we don't know to this day where Denise is, where Denise's body is, assuming that she has been killed because again, like it's probably true tragically. But investigators and her family believe that Terry may have murdered her somewhere between New Hampshire and California, and took her daughter and eventually abandoned her at the trailer park. But we don't totally know for certain. Denise's father recently told interviewers,

I don't think they're ever going to find her. There's always that hope but nothing is definite and that is the story of Terry Rasmussen aka the chameleon killer Hmm well, I Think the moral of the story is that everyone needs Renee Yeah, a Renee will see something and a Renee will say something say something. Yeah. Yeah, a Renee will see something and a Renee will say something. Say something, yeah.

Yeah, a Renee will shout something. What's it like to know that you never have to worry about people finding out if you're dead because Renee will make sure. Make sure. It really is, it's humbling. Yeah, it is. It's like, wow, what made me so special, you know? Oh, well, I'm sure she'll hear this and let you know that you are in fact very special to have her in your life.

She's probably gonna be like something incredibly rude and... ...oop related, so yeah, maybe not, but we'll see. I still remember when I was gonna do the Hirsing Sh shifter and I texted her and I was like, do you have anything you'd like to add? And within 30 minutes, there was a whole docket sent to me of everything she's been journaling. I remember when you were doing that and I was like, how do you know that?

Like, I don't share that story. And then I'm like, oh, right, okay. I should have seen that coming. I'm not kidding. She really, within 30 minutes, it was a full stack of information. She's like, let me get my folio out. I have a full binder of information.

It was enough where I was like, there's no way you did this in 30 minutes. There's, this is actually a record. You've had this waiting. You've had this waiting the whole time and I know it. Well, anyway, good story, my little shifter. Good catching up with you in such a horrible way. Well, anyway, good story, my little shifter. Good catching up with you in such a horrible way.

Yeah, let's go to the after dark and talk about my psychic readings I got. Was I mentioned? No. Say yes. Aw, okay, well, I guess I'll listen anyway. We'll talk about it, maybe you were. We'll talk about it in the dark. Great, okay.

All right, well, yes, anybody who wants to go listen, please join our Patreon or head over there if you're already a part. You're also invited. I guess that's it for this week, but next time I see you, or no, we've got one more episode, and then next time I will have departed

with my mother across the seas. You'll be so tan. I'll be tan and probably scratched up from some sort of bicker we get into. Brawl, yeah. Some sort of brawl and my poor stepfather is just wishing he never came on the boat. Okay.

He's got a margarita, he's fine. And? That's. Why? We. Drink.