And That's Why We Drink - E378 The Butter Bar Lore and the Glass Peacock Yappers

Episode Date: May 5, 2024

It's episode 378 and this week's theme is: butter! First Em takes us to Flint, Michigan for the hauntings of the Capitol Theater (plus a fun little sidebar on photoplays). Then Christine covers the truly shocking case of Cari Lea Farver. And are you the Kirk of your county? ...and that's why we drink!Don't miss out on pre-ordering our new book! bit.ly/hranextstop

I'm going to go ahead and start recording. Halli, Halli. Halli, Halli. Halli, Halli. Halli, Halli. Halli, Halli. Halli, Halli. Halli, Halli.

Halli, Halli. Halli, Halli. Halli, Halli. Halli, Halli. Halli, Halli. Halli, Halli. Halli, Halli. Halli, Halli.

Halli, Halli. Halli, Halli. Halli, Halli. Halli, Halli. Halli, Halli. Halli, Halli. Halli, Halli. Halli, Halli.

Halli, Halli. Halli, Halli. Halli, Halli. Halli, Halli. Hall with, Halli-Hallo, and I don't know, is, did you learn that from somewhere? Is that like a German thing? Oh, it is a German thing. At least how my grandmother always greets everybody. Halli-Hallo. And so in my family, it's just like a bizarre thing every now and then somebody shouts out. That's all.

Is that something Leona says? Cause I can't imagine anything cuter than a little child saying that when she enters a room. No, she's just more focused on chow chow. But chow chow for now. But the other day she said, choosy. And choosy is like, bye bye. Like, it's just like another way of saying like, chow. So she's developing a lot.

Tootaloo. Exactly. It's a lot of ways of develop or she's developed a lot of ways to say goodbye Which probably symbolically means something because she doesn't often say Hello, but well one thing at a time Christine why do you? Drink oh look at you with your little water, my little rat. Look at you. I saw your post on Instagram about your little, your about hydrating, right? And did you drink up?

I did. And I read the comments and people were so moved. Not moved. I was moved. Okay. Let me not put words in their mouths. I was moved by the number of people who were so thankful for your weekly drink your water reminders. And I thought, wow, that's really awesome. Emma's really changing the game. And as a reward for myself, for your selfless acts, I bought myself, I had some rewards points on the shop app where I shop from online shopping.

So it rewards me for that. This is not a promo, but they had this orange Stanley cup and I just, I couldn't help myself and I bought it. Is that your first Stanley? No, I have one, but it's many years old now. And I didn't realize that they've upgraded the way that it works now because this straw part, the one I do have is the reason that a computer has been destroyed.

I've lost like lots of money, made lots of spills because it just kept kind of toppling. This one is much more, none of these are ads. I'm just saying I made excuses for myself to buy myself a new cup for hydrating. Very cool. But it's orange, which is like a Cincinnati color. So you know, it felt like I had to. I have never had a Stanley cup or a Yeti or like any of the big ones. I've had...

I only have... So you don't like to drink out of them, right? Or is that not true? I would like to to but I just never there's nothing more of a hassle to me than having to fill up an entire one of those with water because well Let me say because the Stanley Cup is not that big and he doesn't think but the ones that I currently have I get like the super duper jugs were like you only have to pour it once and then you have like water for the Rest of the day. Oh,, you mean hydro drug promo code beach?

Yes, one of mine is your hydro jug from your show. And we're so thankful for that. And so as much as I love it, I get so overwhelmed where I'm like, this is gonna be half my Brita filter and then I have to refill it and blah, blah, blah. So they intimidate me a little bit. Here's what changed the game for me because I understand that

completely and I've had the same problem. Um, but my, the thing that changed the game was when, like, if you move, get a fridge, does your fridge doesn't have like a filtered water thing? No. Right now? We have roaches. I know, but you also have a full apothecary in your home. So I can't really speak to what accessories you have and don't have. Also, I lived in a really shitty house one time that had that filter thing somehow. It wasn't great or fancy, but you never know.

But anyway, so if you get one of those with the fridge thing, that changes the game. Because then you can just pour ice water and then it'll stay cold all day. You put it in your cup holder again this is not an ad I just love I've sort of piggybacking on your new like call for people to hydrate so so thank you for your finally finally on board together generosity of spirit finally I've joined the ranks join your ranks and I'm a follower of the Empire now wow I'll admit it and and oh ranks, and I'm a follower of the Empire now. Ah! Wow.

I'll admit it. And oh, I drink because I'm seeing a psychic on Saturday and I'm really nervous. Hee hee. Oh, okay. Well, that's good luck. Good luck. The only type of water system that has been suggested to me other than what you just did is when RJ lived with us, he subscribed to a literal water five gallon jug,

like the blue ones in our office. He subscribed to those getting sent to our apartment. And he would just have a whole ass five gallon, I don't even know if that's five gallons, I don't know, that's like a 10 gallon thing. Like the big blue ones. Oh, I think they're heavier because, the big blue ones, because Blaze's family a 10 gallon. Oh, I think they're heavier because the big big blue ones cuz blazes family

They have like well water I guess and so they have always had that water Yeah system thing, but it's really cool cuz it also does hot water so you could just like make tea Oh, well, he had to buy a whole setup and he had a water guy that he met in a warehouse at one point It was a whole weird sketch. Yeah, that sounds like This guy warehouse at one point. It was a whole weird sketchy thing. Yeah, that sounds right. He was like, this guy told me all about this water system. Okay, so you had a literal water cooler. So you cannot even, you take it back, your comments about me asking you about if your fridge dispenses water. Cause you used to have an, apparently our RJ used to have an entire water cooler at your house.

He did not share with us. Let's be clear. Well, okay, fair point. It sounds like he, as the athlete, as the Olympic athlete in the building, probably drank it all. Yep, and then he brought it with him to his new apartment. So, I don't know, he's got a lot of water there. If anyone's ever dying of thirst, you could go find,

that's two thirst traps in one. You've got RJ, a handsome swimmer, and you've got a bunch of water. He's somewhere, somewhere he flexed a bicep. I just felt, I just don't. There's never a second he's not. Yes, anyway, I'm glad you drink water and I'm glad you drink because I told you to drink water.

That's a new one, how meta. I think maybe I'm untangling a lot of things in therapy about like demand avoidance or whatever that phrase is where someone tells me to do something. I don't know if that's the right term. Sound right. But just like, I don't want to do things because people tell me to do them. I'm trying to hang executive dysfunction, I think or something like that. That's a much bigger umbrella that I have. Yes. So piece by piece, I'm trying to work on this. But yeah, I appreciate your guidance and sage wisdom, Em. Thank you, thank you.

Is that it? Is that why we? Yeah, I mean, I drink just because of the psychic thing, really, but I drink a lot of water because of you. So why do you drink? I drink because I'm about to head out tonight for this cruise that um, I don't know man. We'll see how it goes Oh my god, you leave tonight. I can't believe it. I'm I'm overwhelmed with the packing. I Feel like maybe the last time we did this my mom just packed my clothes for me. No, that's not true

I remember always getting a fight sprees It was a cocktail dress a few sundresses baby doll dresses are her favorites. Remember the her. I had two Capris. It was Capris. A cocktail dress. A few sundresses. Baby doll dresses are her favorites, remember? The baby dolls. I'm so sorry, that's what I meant. Yeah, yeah. No, I just, I'm excited that this is the first cruise

where I will get to actually wear something that aligns with me because my whole childhood, cruise nights, I always dreaded dinners because I had to wear a dress. Oh! And I had to wear my hair down, which if you have ever been female to male or fem to mas, transitioning in any way, expression-wise, then you know your biggest nightmare

is being told to take your hair out of its ponytail. And so I'm excited that this is the first time I'll be on a cruise where I actually get to pick what I want to wear and like mean it because the fights that I would have with my mom before any vacation growing up was always like I don't want to wear this and she would be like you have to look nice you have to look nice and so and at the time nice men wearing a dress. You know, it's so funny. How much do you think, this is a conversation, a bigger conversation, definitely, but like,

is there any, do you think draw being, like, I just don't know, like being born, you know, female sex wise, do you feel like there ever is a case where like you'd be drawn to certain colors or things or do you think it's all completely like societal? I just always wonder. Colors? You mean like pink? Like pink frilly, like princessy unicorns or is that just all societal?

Like do you think there's any... Because I know there's crossover, right? Like girls can be really into obviously, trucks and GI Joe, whatever. But, like, I don't know how much of it is just like you're born with, like, certain interests, like... I feel like in colors... I don't know. I don't know enough about how different brains are on the binary. I would love to see it in like,

I wish there was some sort of longitudinal study of a bunch of kids and their interests and then how they identify later, because I wonder if non-binary people also have their own odd umbrella of stereotypical favorites. I mean, my favorite was green, so that kind of takes away the red and the blue, right? So, I don't know.

But I will say- I mean, Leona's favorite color is yellow, so I don't know what was green, so that kind of takes away the red and the blue, right? So I don't know. But I will say- I mean, Leona's favorite color's yellow, so I don't know what that means, but yeah. It's just interesting because there are, like I've seen little boys, for example, who identify as little boys, but they love like sparkly shoes and unicorns and stuff. And so obviously that goes against the societal grain,

but there's clearly like an innate draw to like sparkles and you know, for them. So I just wonder like, maybe it just tends to lean a certain way because like with Leona, we never forced her to wear anything, dress a certain way, whatever. But she does occasionally like get really excited when she sees like a ballerina dress.

And I'm like, you know, we don't really watch any shows like that. Like I think something innately, she just gets really excited because she can like dance around and twirl in it. But I don't know if that's just societal or if she really likes it. Anyway, it doesn't really matter now.

No, I love conversations like this. I feel like she really, maybe there's like some subtle marketing you're unaware of that she is picking up on it. Yeah, I mean, I definitely, and like she has like a school with like one or two other girls that I'm sure where you know, stuff like that. So yeah, and like gifts she's been given and stuff. But so yeah, I wonder. But she's not like super, you know, into the girly stuff. So I wonder I just yeah, I always sometimes I always sometimes wonder I sometimes wonder.

But always never. Hardly never, but occasionally always. I just sometimes wonder if there's also a mix of a societal kind of line plus maybe an innate interest you're born with. I believe everything is nurture and nature combined no combination right I always think everything's a combination but I but in terms of like favorite colors that's definitely pushed by society like I will say one of the color thing yeah and also I mean let's

remember that pink was originally a boy's color and blue was originally a girl's color so I mean it's right that just goes to show that we've clearly flip-flopped before on that so I think it's all made up Yeah, it is fun though because my friends that were quadruplets growing up. They were born Being assigned to different colors that way their parents wouldn't confuse them. And so they And love that but to this day it is their favorite colors and like they still wear they still put it in all their wardrobes Really? Oh, so that's so cute They still put it in all their wardrobes. So they really owned it.

That's so cute. Well, I think it's probably like 100% nature that this color was thrust upon them. Yeah, I think they were just told like, oh, this is my color. But also I bet they have to, I mean, I bet some kids who were, a color was thrust upon them and they were like,

fuck no, I don't like that color anymore. You know, I bet it goes the opposite way. One of the four did and her name is Mare. And she went from yellow to purple, but she still was not any of the other colors. So she tried and she was like, that was her version of being rebellious of like, no, no, if that's the color that's stressed upon me,

I'm gonna thrust myself onto a different color. I love that, okay. So I guess that answered my question. Like it might be just a mix of, depending on the situation in person. I mean, obviously I could have known that, but I just was wondering what your thoughts were. I mean, I'm going to force green on Leona forever.

So, and I did get her a green magic wand, all that good stuff. The way that she sees the world right now is Uncle Zandi's favorite color is green, Oma's favorite color is orange, Mommy's favorite color is red. By the way, that's not true. Daddy's favorite color is blue and her favorite color is yellow. So right now, those are all taken. She hasn't really quite grasped the concept that multiple people can like the same color.

But well, she's assigning people colors too. It's not even that they're your favorite. Oh, absolutely. She's just saying that's your favorite. That's precisely right. Although she got everyone else's right except her parents. So I don't know how that happened. But interesting. Anyway, yeah. Anyway, anyway, I that's not totally important, but I was just curious. So yeah, anyway, no no I I mean I'm a I think when it comes to things that society pushes on us towards gender roles I'm always gonna throw myself at the oh it's obviously society's fault so yeah so there's that and there's the lot but the line is I also want her to like like what she likes you know what I mean like if she's like I love pink dragons I'm not gonna

be like no you should like blue dragon you know so I mean like if she's like I love pink dragons I'm not gonna be like no you should like blue dragons You know so I have to find that like line is what I'm saying I think she's gonna be raised by two wildly leftist people and she is gonna figure it out. That's what I think Yeah, that's what I that's what I hope I like I know I've tried to like push put a lot of pressure on myself, too But it's like I guess at the end of the day like we're already open-minded enough that it's hopefully not gonna be a huge issue. I think she's gonna hear the word feminism quite a lot in your home,

and I think she's gonna realize very quickly that a lot of things are thrust upon her, and she will break that cycle. I have no doubt she'll- She can make up her own mind. I have no doubt one day she'll look at the color wheel and go, you know what? Fuck them, and just set everything on fire and decide her own. We should have made our own color.

Fave our own way. Fave our own way. So rest assured, Christine. Anyway, that's why I drink because I finally get to wear what I want, but that means I've to pack what I want. Yay! Here's my story for you, Christine. It's a quick one.

This is in... Where is it in? Hmm. Where is it in? Let's see. Oh, it's in Flint, Michigan. This is the story of the Capitol Theater. And there I had to double check where it was from

because there is also a haunted Capitol Theater in Utah. So I had to make sure I didn't cross my facts over. And I ended up researching two locations because I had to keep checking that I was not covering the Utah Theater. Oops. Whoopsies. Next week on, and that's why you drink.

I know. All the capital theater. So in 1886, okay, you feel in 1886, you've got the vibe, everyone's favorite color is probably blue because men are in charge, you know? Well, back then it was pink, right? Oh, right. Probably obsessed with pink over there.

The whole town is just painted pink. In 1886, Hiram Bachel buys the land and sure, he buys the land with the intent of tearing down the blacksmith shops here. And when he tears them down, he builds on top of the land, 10 cent sheds for off-duty carriage horses Where I guess is that an is that a name or is that like actually just how much they cost I? Honestly saw 10 cent shed and my first thought was that's a deep dive and I couldn't find anything

so I think he really just I think he just rented out just for a dime and People could park their horses there while they were in town or they could maybe sleep in there if they really were trying to just like Do it on a pinch Anyway, he built a bunch of ten-cent sheds there. We don't know what happens in the meantime, but from 1886 to 1923 it's kind of a but the only thing we know that's there are the ten cents heads by 1923 The ten cents heads are gone and it's now an empty lot and it's bought by J Bradford Pengelly, which how does everyone have such a good name back then? I feel like nobody's got a good name like that today

It's so annoying because I wish everyone now had cool names like that. I feel like, especially like, I'm looking at you non-binaries, everyone's changing their name. Why aren't we doing like some regal shit like back then? Yeah, make it interesting people. Instead everyone's naming themselves like socks, and like, how about instead we go with J. Bradford Pengeli?

I'm gonna name myself that, because somebody has to. Well, to really do it up, J. Bradford, here's two really good names for you. So in 1923, the empty lot is bought by J. Bradford Pengelly. To really do it up, when he has business plans for this area, and J. Bradford Pengelly goes into business

with Colonel Walter S Butterfield and together they take they go into the property and they build one of Butterfield theaters. Butterfield theaters becomes a thing throughout Michigan I guess at this time. Okay now we're talking. Have I told you about Allison's? Obsession with a friend of mine with the last name Butterworth No, I don't think so Let's put it this way, and I don't mean it in a mean way if he's listening I don't mean it in a mean way, but like we're not Really friends like we know each other. We just know each other right. We're not like pals

But I have so I went to school with this kid for my entire life. His name was Trent Butterworth. And I think maybe I thought it was a great name when I was a little kid, because it reminded me of like Mrs. Butterworth's, you know, pancakes out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a good name.

But having known him since I was six, I don't even think about the last name anymore. Allison came home to visit visit to meet all my family This was the first time she was ever gonna meet all my friends in Fredericksburg. And when she met right like Deirdre and everyone Deirdre still lives in town Trent still lived in town a bunch of friends to live in town And so they all happened to have ran into each other at the same bar that night while Deirdre's waiting for me and Allison to come meet her. So Allison and I go to this bar, we meet Deirdre, and we just happen to run into a bunch of people

I went to school with because it's Fredericksburg. And so Allison met Trent Butterworth at the same time she met Deirdre and has conflated both of my relationships with either of them into like equal importance. And so she can't take it out of her mind that yes, I've known Deirdre and Trent equally as long, but we were not there to meet Trent. He just happened to be there.

And so she, and she became obsessed with his last name and loves his last name. So for ever she was like poking fun about Trent Butterworth and like, oh, Trent Butterworth, he's everywhere. He's everywhere. And it weirdly after she made this joke and he became like a bit in our relationship. This guy I went to school with since first grade,

he's like now a bit in my relationship. And now every time I go home, I just happened to run into Trent Butterworth and- Oh, you're like, Alison's like manifesting it for you. And so all of a sudden, now Allison's like, are you gonna see Trent? I know you're not gonna see any of your actual like closest friends in Fredericksburg,

but maybe you're into Trent. And it's happened where like. You're gonna come home and she's gonna be like, oh, how is Trent? And you're like, what? There were even times where like, there were times where I ran into him and then him and I, like, I mean, it was, it's a small town.

We all went to a school where 30 people graduated together. It was just 30 of us. So I could still probably text any of those 30 people and get a response from them. And like, we just all, we just all happened to run in the same circles at some point. And so there was another time where I was like,

I'm not that close with Trent, get it out of your head. Like I just happened to run into Trent. I'm not that close with Trent. And then the next day- You're gonna start getting resentful toward fucking Trent. Okay, sorry, go ahead. Well, and then the next day was like New Year's

and I was in town for New Year's and I guess Trent had nowhere to go and someone invited him. So it ended up being like, I hung out with Trent all night and New Year's and I guess Trent had nowhere to go and someone invited him so it ended up being like I hung out with Trent all night and on New Year's Eve and When all my friends, I don't know where but we were like house party bound like jumping around all of them Went somewhere else and I lost them. So then Trent and I ended up like at Someone's house and slept on the same air mattress that night

And so yep see Allison fucking manifested that shit, no doubt. And like, so Allison's like, you literally have had sleepovers with Trent. Like you obviously are like closer with Trent than you think you are. Best friends. Which like if you told me, like Trent and I, for people who've known each other for that long,

I still, if you told me in high school, I would one day in my like 20s or 30s have a sleepover on New Year's Eve with Trent Butterworth. I wouldn't have believed you because we weren't that close. And right, but Allison is fully committed to the bet and then he's in the military and he eventually got um, he got promoted to a title that is nicknamed in the military as the Butterbar. And so his name so his name became Butterbar Butterworth and quit it and Anyway, Allison's obsessed with his name and like our lore. She's decided there's lore

So I think we're all you're kind of making everyone get in on board with this you realize that right? Like you'll never escape now. He's like he's I never have an issue running into him But it only just keeps furthering the storyline that we're besties. Yeah, I sort of feel like this is just your fate. There's really not much you can do about it. I am sorry, but this is kind of, you just have to learn to accept it. Thank you. Anyway, I live with that every day.

It's a cross-eyed bear. But anyway, if you happen to be related to a Butterworth, just know that if you ever said that in front of Allison, it would really spine roll. Yeah, I guess be careful who you tell, because some people are going to take it in a weird direction. Yeah, so anyway, J. Bradford Pengali and Colonel Walter Butterfields,

who the second I wrote that name down, I knew if Allison were in the room, she would have asked me how Trent's doing, so there's that. Yeah, you're trying to get ahead of it. Which I checked on Instagram, he's fine everyone, thanks. So they decided to get together, they create Butterfield Theaters.

I think this was the first of like what becomes 20 different Butterfield Theaters throughout the Michigan area. And this is now in 1925 to 1927, their theater is being built with the help of the most famous atmospheric theater designer named John Eberson. So I only mentioned that because apparently

this was in a small chunk of time. It was in the 1920s, before the depression, there was this whole category of theater design called atmospheric theaters. And, and John Eberson, I think was the guy who like created it, he was easily the most successful at it, the most well, the well known most well known about this. And I think Capitol Theater was one of his first ones. There's only 17 of his left in the country. And I think there's 35 in total left in the country. 17 of them were designed by him.

And Capitol Theater is not only one of those 17, but it's said to be the best that still exists. So atmospheric theaters were super detailed, like walls and ceilings surrounding the audience You know when you're looking around like in a theater in an auditorium Yeah, and like though it's just like very beautifully done and there's like a bunch of sculpted columns and stuff like that on the walls it was kind of Like at a big venue like that he was in charge of creating that I see he's doing like kind of the

like that he was in charge of creating that surrounding space. I see he's doing like kind of the aesthetic of it like making it chic and yeah and his thing was making it look like an outdoor landscape so that way he could bring the outside in and so he was very into like a pastoral vibe yeah it's very he also like the walls would be facades of buildings and if you looked up it would be like clouds were painted into the sky and there'd be lights and twinkling lights to look like stars. It sounds like Michelangelo status. Like if you if you were to Google atmospheric theaters you would know. What's his name by the way? John Eberson. Eberson okay that's kind of cool though like what a neat what a neat legacy I guess. Yeah, apparently it was inspired by him.

One in Judith, he wanted you to feel like you were walking out onto an Italian patio. So it was like very Mediterranean looking and. Ooh, I love that. So he, and to this day, it still has like twinkling lights on the ceiling. So it looks like stars and all this. So anyway, one of them, one of the atmospheric theaters left is the Capitol Theater.

I looked up nearby you, the nearest still standing Capitol Theater or atmospheric theater of his, and the closest one to you is the Louisville Palace. I was gonna ask, I was there last year. And I, when you were describing that, I was like, I went somewhere really similar in Louisville and it was beautiful.

I mean, I remember, I remember, this is so funny. I remember thinking, I have to Google this place when I go home and see like why it looks like this and who designed it. Cause I saw glass animals there, but we were there for like a rock concert, but you walk in and you're like, whoa, this is gorgeous. So that's so funny you say that. Well, I guess he spent some time in Europe at one point

and he was very into- Well, he's Austrian, it says. Oh, well, he's very, the inspiration were, I guess a lot of areas over there have patio performances. And so he wanted it to feel like a patio performance, which is why he wanted you to feel like you walked out onto a patio, an Italian patio. I love that. Yeah, I mean, it was a beautiful theater.

So that, okay, that gives me like context for it. How funny. And last piece of trivia to this, do you know which state has the most remaining John Eberson atmospheric theaters? I mean, I definitely don't know, but I can venture, I guess. Let's see.

Illinois. OH. Oh, really? Okay, all right. Neighbor, well, not quite neighbors. Almost neighbors. Yeah, well, there's three of them in Ohio. So, there you go. Really?

Yep. Cool. So anyway, he created an atmospheric theater for Butterfield Theaters, and in 1928, the theater officially opened. It was used for music, vaudeville, and photo plays. Do you know what a photo play is? Mm-mm.

Okay, a photo play. I had to look it up. I got real upset very quickly, because I was like. Oh. I was about to get really excited. I'm excited, no, I'm excited, but I was like, no no no to get really excited I'm excited no I'm excited but I was like you have to be kidding me and then I realized I was misunderstanding the definition so okay I looked up photo plays and my first understanding of the definition was it's just an old word for movie and I was

like well why don't we just call it that anymore but yeah apparently the movie picture yeah but apparently a photo play it is a movie but it's a play that's filmed to be seen as a movie not as a play oh wait so it's like a play in moving photos, essentially. It's like taking, almost like today, like a comedy special today, because you're filming in a theater and people watch it as a movie. Oh, so there are people, oh, I see, so people are watching it while it's being filmed.

Yeah. Or, okay, okay. Like a version of it? Okay, I was trying to find the closest thing, and I don't know if you know about this. If you don't, that, okay. Like a version of it? Okay, I was trying to find the closest thing, and I don't know if you know about this. If you don't, that's fine. If you do, I have a little bit of a quick deep dive on that. But I grew up often watching the play version

of Peter Pan as a movie. Remember, there was like, Peter Pan was like a woman played Peter Pan, her name was Mary Martin. Yeah, yeah. Do you remember that? Where it was like, it was- I do. You're watching the movie,

but it was obviously a play that they had filmed. Like she had like the thing that she flew on. Yeah, it was a stage that they filmed it at, for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think that would be a photo play because it's a play that they recorded with the intention of people seeing it on a screen. Well, what about watching Hamilton on Disney Plus?

Technically, I guess. I mean, this is also, this is a definition from 100 years ago, so today I- Would they film? Right, that'd be slightly different. They'd be like, oh, on Disney Plus, what? Would they film them in this place or would they just like play them

for people to come watch in this place? I think they would film the, maybe both, that'd be so meta if they filmed the play and then played the movie on the play or at the theater. But primarily it's like, oh, they would use this as a set for filming this kind of a... I think so.

I think so. Because it's so beautiful and stuff. It's probably like fit to host that kind of event, like to film something. Yeah, and it was a massive theater too. So I think it was like, they had a lot of room to film on there or something maybe. Oh, I see, okay.

But I'm imagining because in the 20s, it's not like anyone had their own individual TVs yet. So I think you're actually probably right that they would film it. And then later it would be something that people went to that same theater to watch on a screen. Yeah, yeah, like they probably spread them around. I mean, like they probably played them elsewhere also, but yeah, that's really interesting.

Kind of a smart idea if you don't wanna half the same people have to do the same play over and over again. Definitely. You could just play the recording of it. Definitely. And so, anyway, were you ever interested in that Peter Pan movie that wasn't a big thing for you? I feel like that was such a thing for me.

I was never into Peter Pan that much, honestly. I think it freaked me out a little bit. I was never into Peter Pan that much, honestly. I think it freaked me out a little bit. I wasn't into Peter Pan either, but like that movie specific, I feel like it was just always on or someone I knew always had a copy of it. No? Maybe I'm just misremembering. I don't know.

I feel like I don't have the best grasp on what was normal for childhood. Did you like, not the cartoon, like the live action old school one. Did you, you really never watched it? Right, right, right. Wild. I've watched it, but like maybe once.

Would you like some fun facts about it? Absolutely. Okay, because wow, I ended up doing like an hour of research on this because I was just- Okay. Well, this, when I saw like Peter Pan as an example online it like pulled this memory out of my head I was like, oh my god, I used to watch that all the time How did I totally forget that existed? And so now I'm probably gonna watch it on the plane later tonight, but

I was obsessed with it. I don't know why it was like it also I remember as a kid my mind being blown that a girl Was playing Peter Pan. But but yeah that's pretty cool I think that's probably why I remember it like because I remember thinking whoa that's neat yeah and I also remember it being like I was like blown away that they weren't trying to hide the fact that they were on wires and stuff but in my mind it didn't occur to me that it was because it was on a stage I was just like wow I did this kind of cheap like they're just like not even trying to special effects us. On the cheap. Yeah.

OK, so the fun fact about this is that originally this or it was actually like the it was a Broadway musical, Peter Pan in the 50s, and it was supposed to come to San Francisco. I guess they were still trying to figure out negotiations. And so while they were waiting to open in San Francisco, they started rehearsing in Pasadena, which is in Los Angeles. And so, uh, I guess they never figured out their deal with San Francisco. So they ended up staying in LA and opening there and LA being the TV hub.

Even back then the NBC got wind of like Peter Pan being this huge thing, this big sensational musical that was out right now. And they went to the directors and the producers of the Peter Pan musical and said, hey, we're NBC and it's 1954 and we just created this thing called color TV. And here's this thing. We've got a show on NBC called Producer's Showcase. And the coolest thing about Producer's Showcase is that it is a series where we only show TV in color. And it's the only series like it at this point in time.

And the reason that they were able to do this is because NBC, they have a parent company called RCA, and RCA had just created this new color TV set up. And so they were the only ones I guess who could do it. They got special rights at first. Yeah, and so NBC was like, we're trying to promote this new color TV system that our parent company just created. And so they helped like, we're trying to promote this new color TV system that our

parent company just created. And so they helped us create this TV show called producer showcase, where we only showcase things in color to, you know, promote how great this new set up is. What if Peter Pan musical, we brought cameras into your theater and we filmed you guys and that way people would want to watch Peter Pan and watch a musical from the comfort of their own couches. They could watch it on our color TV setup, but at the same time, we're giving you promo

for people to go buy tickets to your show. And so- That is so cool. Genius. Whoever was like the marketing person at the time really ate it with that. So- Yeah, they knew what they were up to.

So then they're like, great, we're going to do that. And basically NBC comes in with their cameras and they go to the theater that Peter Pan is, you know, performing in in L.A. or rehearsing and maybe at the time because it was an empty theater. They brought their cameras in and they filmed a full performance of it, but not just filmed it, they live broadcasted it, because at the time. Oh, that's cool.

So everyone at home is watching a full live performance of this from the comfort of their own homes, in color, it was unheard of, and this was in 1955, and it was the very first full length and live Broadway production on a color TV. And so this brought in... I had no idea. This brought in 65 million viewers, which was record breaking at the time.

Mary Martin won a Tony and an Emmy for this, and it was such a big hit that they did it again a year later, and so they had to rebroadcast the same cast, re-performing it in the same theater, because it didn't occur to them that they should film it. They just were like, oh, we have to go in and re-livestream it, essentially. Oh, they didn't have a copy of it? No, they just did it once and thought that was going to be it.

They broadcast it. Yeah, and then by popular demand, they had to do it again. And they were like, well, I guess we have to go back in and redo it. That's incredible. And so the show was not seen again, which is wild. Like, it's just a reminder to everybody, like with how grateful we are to technology these days. But people watched it once in 1955 and again once by popular demand in 1956 and if you missed it you

fucking missed it and then it would not be seen again on television until 1960 when it was finally videotaped and then they were able to play the tape. What are they doing? That's so funny. Not only that but they only played the tape in once in 1963, once in 1966, and once in 1973. So in 10 years you had three chances to see this and that was it. Jesus, they really are trying to work on that supply and demand situation, you know? Like limiting it. Well, also at the time maybe that was like a big deal, like, whoa, how lucky are we? Three opportunities to see this thing in a decade.

Three different times. Wild. But so the last thing I'll say is in 1976, I guess they were going to play it again because it seemed like they were doing it every few years. They were going to play it again. And then the videotape went missing. Oh, okay.

That apparently happened all the time back then. And lately there are some people who have hobbies or pastimes or even jobs searching for old videotapes that have ended up either in basements or random people's attics. They scour the internet eBay for lost episodes of things. I mean, it ended up being found 13 years later.

Wow. It was gone for 13 years later. Wow. It was gone for 13 years. They even had already refilmed an entire other one, now starring Mia Farrow as Peter Pan, but like they had to film an entire new one because they were like, we fucking just don't have this video anymore. But it ended up being found 13 years later.

It was played 16 years later in 1989 on television. And that was the first time since the 70s anyone had ever seen this version. And following the success of broadcasting musicals in color, producer Showcase said, wow, Peter Pan went really well. Let's do that again. And now we're going to film for everybody,

Annie Get Your Gun, also starring Mary Martin. So she really found her groove. She was she sure did. She was taking those checks home. Okay. So anyway, that's my deep dive on the old school Peter Pan because amazing good times. Okay. I'm sorry if you wanted a straightforward story today everybody.

I'm so sorry. We haven't even gotten to the ghost yet. Anyway, they played things such as photo plays. They did vaudeville, they did music. And that was from the 20s all the way into the 50s. They were, that was like their thing. When the talkies got big, like pictures where you could, movies with audio, they also added a screen to the theater.

It became a huge movie theater place. That was like what they're, that was their bread and butter eventually. And the Capitol was a big hit through the fifties from opening date in 1953, from opening day in 1928 to 1953, which is like 25 years. Um, the Capitol brought in 20 million theater goers and most of them and most of them were for once the talkies came out, people were there for movies. That's what it was best known for.

Coming up on the 60s, the theater was dated to try to juj it up. They modernized it, AKA they took away some of like the really cool interior touches. And basically the theater struggled until Colonel Butterfield said said we're out of here and closed shop in 1976. So it's no longer Butterfield Theaters but it's then bought by a family where their whole

job they just wanted to restore this thing and they their way of doing that was by bringing in a bunch of like rock bands, metal bands, punk bands, and they tried to make it like a rocker arena. This was actually, they even hosted the very first show of ACDC's US tour in 1977. Oh my gosh! And they came up with new ideas to raise money to restore the theater back to what it once looked like. And one of those ideas was to create it the wet theater and this was one of the very first wet theaters out there where you could have alcohol at the theater.

Oh it's like I don't want to know what that means. Okay nevermind. Like a dry campus a wet theater? Right it totally makes sense yep. So they were showcasing rock and roll bands. They were selling beer. They turned the basement into like a billiards and bowling alleys place. So they kind of turned it into like a grungy space.

And it was this way through the 90s, which had to be such a cool venue at the time for like, I mean, a 90s rock or 80s rock and to go to like, just like Nirvana there or something. Yeah. And like this beautiful hall, but like you can still drink beer and play and go bowling. Like, what a fun space. It sounds lovely. What a combo.

So it was, they were able to kind of get by through the 90s. I don't know how they weren't making more money, but eventually it even got on the National Register of Historic Places, but that didn't even help. A big reason for why this venue suffered later is because more venues were opening up in safer areas, so the bans weren't going there anymore.

So maybe it was doing really well, and then it immediately tanked, or maybe they were always kind of struggling and then that is really what Hurt them, right? But Eventually, they were struggling again then some filmmakers came in and they were using it as a filming location and they one of the I guess caveats and their contractors like you can film here But you also have to like put money towards restoring the place. And so there was one movie that came here

and they paid $20,000 to help repair the theater's marquee outside. Whoa. Whoa. So that was another attempt to get the Capitol back to its former glory, but nothing ended up really working. And around 1996, the place shut down, shut down. And it remained shut down until 2015 so like 20 years

Wow I mean Flint has had its fair share of problems otherwise yeah it's going through it obvious for obvious reasons so yeah it does it does make some sense that like certain arts cultural and arts spaces might suffer over time. Yeah. In 2015, it finally got bought by a reinvestment group. And within two to three years, they had spent different sources say up to 15 to $37 million to restore this place. Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow. That's a lot.

And it opened in 2017 back to its former glory. It was a booming theater again. They actually were able to keep the original light board and electrical system. And the only real difference was that instead of it being a 2000 seater, it was a 1500 seater to keep up to code. So that's like the main change. They were like, 500 of you have to go, but otherwise we're ready.

But everything else they tried to make it look like it did. They even brought back some of the John Eberson elements to the theater. Interesting that you said glass animals were at your Kentucky theater of his, because at this one, there are 10 massive peacocks standing at the top of... Oh, I meant I saw the band Glass Animals. Oh my God, you did. Sorry. Sorry.

Well, did you know that there's a mind meld for Glass Animals when it comes to John Eberson theaters? I sure didn't. So please enlighten me. You saw Glass Animals at one at one there are glass animals No, you're not Anyway, there are like apparently there's a bunch of peacocks that will watch that are on top of the the stage That's pretty cool. How many of the millions was the peacocks? I know. Was that like half the budget?

Could you imagine? Someone was just like real gung-ho about those damn peacocks, doubled the budget. That's why it went from 15 to 37 million very quickly. Yeah, I mean, I'm sorry. Either you include the peacocks or you don't. More than double. Well, now here the only death we know at the theater

was in the 1930s where an employee was on his break and he was standing at the back of the theater. At the same time that on the other side of that door in the alley of the theater, there was a police shootout with a burglar. And the burglar or someone shot their gun and it flew through the door and hit the guy who was on his break standing there.

Oh no. And honestly, I mean, there's no way he, in my mind, there's no way he didn't hear a gun shoot out, but he was probably just nosy. I could imagine him just being like, what the hell's that sound? Like what's going on? And then- He said he's on his lunch break? He was on his lunch break just standing

in the back of the theater. Was he working at the theater? Mm-hmm. So he was an employee. So he probably was like, what is all that racket in there? Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. He was like, what the? On my break.

So I think he probably heard a sound and walked towards the door to check on things. And then the bullet flew through the door. That is fucking so sad What's even sadder is apparently this this could just be You know for the sake of like having like an urban legend, but apparently he survived for a while But he was screaming for help and the volume in the theater was so loud it drowned out his cries. Oh no.

So now people- That's fucking awful. Now people regularly see someone who looks like an usher walking through the theater, standing in the back of the theater. A lot of times people see a shadow figure standing over there. One source actually says that this being will try to

help escort you to your seat so get ready to shit your pants. And then and people also regularly hear crying, screaming, knocking as if someone's trying to get your attention. People hear moaning, they also hear laughter, they hear voices kind of whisper to you. Like I said, people see shadow figures in that area. They also see shadow figures and full-blown apparitions on the stage. Some people have even seen a little girl

just sitting on the stage, and we don't know if she's, maybe she was a family, like someone who worked at the theater's kid, or maybe she was an actress and she's still mid performance, we don't know. People hear footsteps, especially running across the stage at night when it's empty.

People hear voices around the curtains and you think someone's still there, but no one is. When the auditorium is completely empty, people will still hear singing backstage as if someone's getting ready to come out on stage. Some people have heard singing straight up on the stage, and that's a firm fucking pass for me. Like you're just sweeping the popcorn.

Ugh, and then you just hear. Yeah, okay, true. True, but do you feel like it's worse if you're hearing it backstage and you can't see them, or do you feel like it's worse if you're like hearing it backstage and you can't see them? Or do you feel like it's worse if it's on stage and there's just nobody there? If I can't, this is like, I go right back to being a child because in my mind, if I can't see them, they can't see me.

So I'm like, I still have a chance to run. Like if they're backstage, you mean? Yeah, if I hear the singing backstage, I'm like, maybe they don't know I'm here. You feel safer. And I can still slowly back away from the room. Like if they're backstage, you mean? Yeah, if I hear the singing backstage, I'm like, maybe they don't know I'm here. And I can still slowly back away from the room. If they're singing right at me, you're right. Even though I can't see them necessarily,

it's like, oh, you can probably see me. Okay, I see what you're saying. You hope that that would be like a residual haunting, but maybe they were singing for an audience and you're the only one there, so they were singing for you. No. And then you just run away. there, so they were singing for you. No, no. And then you just run away. And by the way, I'm terrified,

there's nothing I hate more than going to a restaurant and the staff sings to you. I can't, I, and I- Yes, I know that. And I even told Allison, not that she's much of a singer or a musical person, but I did warn her early in the relationship. I was like, if you're someone who plays an instrument,

I do not want you playing for me. I do not wanna be your one man audience and I have to just sit there and I don't know what to do with my face. Please don't do that to me. So like the fact that they're at work, there could be a situation like that where someone's just singing and now I'm like,

oh, great. Like you're like, I love it. That's super great. OK, thank you. Yeah, nothing worse. I can't decide if my social anxiety outweighs the fear of being in the room with a ghost. But if it's a ghost who is basically singing

Happy Birthday to me, I'm like, oh, man, all of it's hell. This is all bad. I was going to say, it's both. It's both. It's just all bad. Yeah. Oh, and then the big thing that happens here is that people, well, people hear a lot of sounds down in the basement where the bowling alley

used to be. I think at some point it got refurbished probably during the multi-million. Oh, I bet that's loud as fuck. Yeah. Well, I guess it became like more rehearsal space when they refurbished the area or renovated the area. And people still hear voices down there. They still hear shouting and clanging and thuds. I mean, it's very, very distracting, apparently.

And for your rehearsal, you're like trying to do, you're trying to rehearse and they're just like, someone's bowling next to you. Which the irony that then they wait until everything's quiet so they can sing. Like it's like, well, I have to sing too. Like I actually work here. It's like, today, you're not getting paid for this today. Okay. Just so you're aware.

A very common thing, which by the way, 15 theater, that's not totally out of our reach. We could probably perform at the Capitol Theater if we wanted to. 1500? Yeah. It's not totally out of our reach. I'm thinking 15 people.

I was like, 15 people? 1500, that seems like quite a stretch, It's not totally average. I'm thinking 15 people. I was like, how many people? 15 people? 1,500? That seems like quite a stretch, but folks, you know, if people showed up, maybe we could make it work. We've never done such a big show, but we could try. If we did, we would have to be warned that the most common thing that happens here is that microphones, amps, and all instrument equipment on stage will just fail for no reason

despite very good sound checks. But to be honest, we're the perfect people for that because it's like, if you're a band, if you're Glass Animals or some Peacocks that are also a band, and you wanna perform here, and your mics go out out like that's fucking horrible like you'll probably end up having to give people all their money back for us if that

happened it's like a ghostly apparition has come you know like for podcasts it's not as big of a deal and also like it can't interrupt the middle of a song you know but also like we could use it so I don't know if they want to hit us up I would love to go go check it out. I mean, it would certainly yeah, we are for sure the audience that we would be the ones that people would be like, keep the volume off and then we can't get through our show. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's just play with the ghost and stuff. Well, the thought behind it is that they don't like the noise of today's music because this only started once, like the rockers came in. But they, apparently you can do all the sound checks in the world and then mid show things just completely turn off.

So maybe they don't like the ruckus, but anyway. And I also, I hope that for a theater that's so haunted that they have a ghost lamp on at night on stage, but I didn't see anything about that. So I couldn't tell you. Anyway, that's the Capitol Theater. That is quite a story. I've never heard of it, obviously,

but I would love to do a little show. I love those old theaters. Every time we get to do a show in an old theater, I know it has its downsides sometimes with green room access and stairs for you and stuff, but I just love those old theaters. I think, especially when they're just really beautiful and you feel like I shouldn't be allowed

to perform on this stage. It's too fancy for someone like me. Every time I'm like, how did we get the invite? This is fucking crazy. It's all like gilded and we're like, wah, who let us come here? I'm like, us? They said we want the talkies.

And I said, okay, I'm here to yap. I'm here to yap We are the yappers. That's right Hello, we are the yappers. We're opening for glass animals tonight Okay with the peacocks above us is what we're talking about about the actual band with a with a glass I read a peak where the What were we the talkies? We're opening for the peacocks who are opening for the glass animals Okay, sorry, let me get my notes open. I was too mesmerized by your story

to pull them up already. So I'm kind of, I hate to say excited about this because obviously I'm not excited about any story that I tell because they're all just fucking terrible. But this one is one that I've been wanting to cover for a little while and I'm glad I waited because there was then a documentary on Netflix that came out recently and it kind of sparked it in my mind again. This is the story of Carrie Lee Farver.

Now I'm assuming you do not know it. If you're excited, I'm excited. Okay, that's all I need. So I'll go ahead and tell you about the story. If you have seen the documentary, you might know some of this, but I do highly recommend the documentary as well. A lot of the information came from there.

Here we go. So Carrie Lee Farver was born November 30th, 1974 to Dennis and Nancy Bisbee. She was adored by her family, adored by her friends. She attended Western Community College in Council Bluffs, Iowa, and went on to become a successful computer programmer. Those who knew her described her as warm, lively, funny, kind, you know, lit up a room, et cetera. So above all, she loved being a mother to her son, Max, whom she named after her own grandfather. And she actually lived with Max in Macedonia,

which was a tiny Iowa town with a couple hundred residents just over the Nebraska border. Carrie loved her family. She was very close with her mother, Nancy, but that all seemed to change in autumn of 2012 when Carrie met a man named Dave Krupa. So Dave was new to the area. He had recently separated from his ex-partner, Amy Flora. He'd had a couple kids with her. And he and Amy, his ex-wife, had met in 2000 when Dave worked at a truck stop as an auto mechanic, and they fell in love pretty quickly. However, because Dave worked days and Amy worked nights,

and then they had the two children, over time they began to grow apart, their lives just didn't mesh anymore. And so they split up. So Amy wanted to move home to Nebraska, but she and Dave, like I said, had two kids together, and Dave wanted to be near his kids and be part of parenting them.

So he moved sort of alongside Amy to be near the kids, although they were no longer together, if that makes sense. So he wanted to find a job nearby. He got a mechanic job and lived in Nebraska with, basically started a whole new life in Nebraska because his ex had moved there with the kids. So he and Amy were very, they're like the definition of an amicable

co-parenting situation. So jealous. Isn't that nice? I know. I'm like, what is that about? It's just one thing I'll never know. I didn't know that was possible. So especially back then. So he moved nearby in Nebraska so he could be near the kids, got a job as a mechanic, and the kids would spend weekends at his house. So it was difficult, obviously, to start over, especially as an adult in a new city and after a divorce, but Dave was pretty optimistic.

He signed up for a few dating sites and didn't really get many hits, but one day while he was working, a woman approached him and asked if he had time to look at her car. And he thought, wow, his first thought was, wow, she's beautiful. But he's like, she's a customer, I'm the employee.

I gotta keep things professional and above board. So he checked out the vehicle, he got back to work and thought, wow. Checked her out. Yeah, checked out the vehicle, He got back to work and thought, check her out. Yeah. Yeah. Checked her check, check out the vehicle, check her out. Uh, and he thought like, well, you know, I got to keep things above forward. So probably won't see her again. Um, but one day he's scrolling through plentyoffish.com and, uh, he sees this local woman named Liz and he

found, so he describes it in the documentary. He's like, I didn't get any matches. He's like, there were just zero matches on Plenty of Fish. And he's like, so that was kind of a bummer. But then one day he gets off work, he's always checking his match profile. And there he sees that he finally has a match. It's a woman named Liz Golyard. And she strikes him as very cool, very down to earth.

They have a lot of similar interests They both have two kids a boy and a girl. They both love animals. She has multiple pets She has two dogs a cat and apparently a big snake. So You know, wait a minute swipe left swipe left quick Yeah, he's like he's like that is a match made in heaven for me, which is actually I think how he described it And I'm like, good for you. So 35 years old, newly single with two kids, Dave is like looking to meet women,

but he doesn't want anything serious. So he tells Liz, this is casual, but I would love to get to know you. And Liz was a mother herself with two kids. And she's like, you know what? I'm also happy with a casual thing. Nothing serious. Good for them. So they went out to, yeah, good for them.

So they went out together to drink and chat and just generally have fun. And like I said, their arrangement was like pretty casual. So Dave kind of kept his options open, right? So he's browsing plenty of fish one day when he sees a familiar face. It's the woman from work whose car he had worked on. Oh, it's the hottie, beep beep.

It's the hottie, beep beep, boop boop. It was 37 year old Carrie Farver. And he sort of took it as a sign and thought, okay, I'm gonna send her a message and just see what happens. So they meet up for a date and he likes her immediately. She's intelligent, she's fun. They spoke about their lives, their kids.

They generally hit it off. Dave at one point said he just shot a shot. He invited Carrie back to his apartment and she agreed. So after their date, they go back to his place and they're thinking about getting hot and heavy. And as soon as they get inside, the doorbell rings. Oh, no. That's weird. Oh, no. Awkward.

It's Liz. Liz has left something at the apartment the last time she stayed over. So Dave is in this awkward situation where now he has Carrie clearly here to hook up and Liz who he's dating but very casually shows up. Okay Christine what would you do in this situation? Your if I were whom? If you were him if you had a casual situation going on like it's been established as casual but someone's coming over in the middle of you about to hook up with someone else. What's like your plan of attack? I would hide the other person. I would hide the other person. Me too.

I would do it. Oh, okay. Okay, good. I would be like, I am not getting into a confrontation right now. I can talk about this with them later if that ends up being the better, bigger person move. But right now, you get over there and I'll explain later. But what happens, because you've got your little, you get over there and I'll explain later. But what happens, because you've got your little,

you've got honey number one and honey number two. Honey number two is the one that's hiding, but honey number one comes and says, oh, I forgot my sunglasses. Oh, while I'm here, it seems like you're up to nothing. Like, let's like hang out and chat for a little bit. What do you say then? I'm sweating so much.

Okay, I think what I would do is before I even eat. I already know what I would do if it's sick. Wait, actually I just realized what's happening. What I would do is I would never answer the door. I would just like not answer the door. I would just lock, unless she has a key. If she has a key, I would hide the other one. Yeah, I would hide the other one and then I would say,

oh, you know what, I have a call with my dad in like two minutes and it's really important so I can't hang out right now. What would you do? Oh, that's so much smarter. I think I just don't lie as well as you. No, I would lie too, but it would have been more elaborate. I would have been like, oh, I'm about to head out

and then I know she would have wanted to talk to me until I got in my car and drove away so then I would have like fake drove away and then come back. I would just be like, I'm so sorry I gotta run. I have a work call or like a phone call upstairs about co-parenting the kids and then come back. I would just be like, I'm so sorry, I gotta run. I have a work call or like a phone call upstairs about co-parenting the kids or something important.

And I mean, I hate to use the kids as an excuse, but you know, I feel like- No, if you have kids, use them as an excuse. Use them, but just as like a tactic to keep conflict at bay. I would be like, just, and then when honey number one leaves, I would tell honey number two, like, hey, I'm so sorry. Like we have a casual thing and like, I would be upfront, I think with the one in the house.

Cause like at this point they're like, what's happening? And you have to be clear, like that is not my spouse. Like I'm not obligated to, you know. So I feel like it would be a lot of explaining, but I think my move would either be, do not answer the fucking door at all. And just be like, not now. So avoid or lie, avoid or lie.

Avoid or lie, which is also avoiding, I guess. So, but then be honest to the person in the room. And then, I don't know, depending on how it shakes out, I guess, if later someone's like, who's car was in the driveway? I'd be like, I don't know. I'll handle that when I get there. But yeah, but definitely you and I are both

conflict avoidant people. I imagine we'd probably approach this similarly. And so unfortunately, Dave did not know quite what to do, which again, like we have the, we have like foresight, you know, we can think about it, but he was totally taken by surprise. So he kind of had to awkwardly apologize. And Carrie, who is honey number two,

is like, I'm just gonna head home. This is a little awkward, right? So she leaves. And Dave then, so okay, so she leaves. Liz is like, okay, I got my stuff. Sorry to bother you, I'm heading out. So, Liz is like, okay, I got my stuff, sorry to bother you, I'm heading out. So Dave decides, he's now alone, right?

They've both left. He calls Carrie, the one who had come over, honey number two. And she's like, hey, you know what? Like since we both are not doing anything, why don't you just come to my place in Macedonia? So he's like, okay, we're still on. So he hops in his car.

The hottie still wants me even though the other one came over, so maybe he did things right. So he arrives at her place and she tells him, she's very upfront, very clear, says, I don't expect monogamy. So like that doesn't bother me that you have another partner. I don't expect anything serious. I'm like, that doesn't bother me that you have another partner. I don't expect anything serious. I'm happy with a casual relationship, same as you.

So Dave is like, thank God, like, this is the perfect setup. We get along so great, we're super casual. Then they're spending like every, almost every day together. And Dave believes they're pretty clear about where they stand. But one day, three weeks into their relationship, he's at work and he receives a text from Carrie and it says, hey, we should move in together. Oh my God.

Yeah. Oh my God. So suddenly he's like, I must have misjudged a situation or she was lying about like what she really wanted or like not being truthful to herself or to me. So Dave is totally shocked. He's like, we've agreed to a casual relationship. We've known each other for two freaking weeks or three weeks.

Have they even said, I love you? I don't think so. Or maybe they have, but that's information I had not gotten. So I do not know. But considering they're trying to be as casual as possible, it sounds like probably not. But so he turns her down and says like gently like, hey, no, I thought we agreed this was casual,

like I'm not ready for such a big move. And she responds harshly, fine, fuck you. Oh my God. And he's like, okay, so. So we're done. Maybe I dodged a bullet here. Yeah, we're done. And she starts sending him texts all day,

like you've ruined my life and fuck you and you mean nothing and limp dick. Like she just like bullying the shit out of him. So Carrie had spent the night at Dave's place that night before and he had left when she was still in bed and He had gone to work at like 6 a.m But when he came home for lunch just to see what was going on and see if she was there she was gone and all Her things were gone. So she had clearly like

vacated the premises Dave described it as being bummed out Like he was he was kind of sad that things took such a turn because they had been having so much fun. But then he thought, well, it's been only a couple of weeks. Maybe I just didn't know her as well as I thought. And she just put on a good front. So he tried to move on, but Carrie wouldn't leave him alone.

Every day he's getting these like harassing texts, calling him a bastard, threatening to destroy his life, threatening everything he cared about. Eventually, sheriffs show up. He's at work and he gets this comment from a coworker who says, hey, the sheriff is here and apparently wants to speak to you. And he's like, I've never been in any sort of legal trouble,

any sort of criminal issue. So he's a little bit taken aback. But when he goes to talk to the sheriffs, they're like, what can you tell us about Carrie Lee Farver? Uh oh. And he's like, oh, well, we were dating. So of course, the sheriff is immediately intrigued. Like, okay, well, you're a good puzzle piece here in this puzzle. The puzzle being the fact that Carrie's mother had recently reported her as a missing person. And as far as her mother knew,

she was dating a guy named Dave when she disappeared. So Dave is like, look, I don't know what to tell you. We were dating, then she got all clingy and weird. He showed them the nasty texts Carrie was sending and they were like, okay, you know what? This is clearly just a bad breakup He showed them the nasty texts Carrie was sending and they were like, okay, you know what? This is clearly just a bad breakup and she just needed time and was off, you know, recovering, licking her wounds, what have you.

Sure. Meanwhile, Nancy, who had reported her daughter missing, received a Facebook message from Nancy being like, hey, mom, everything's fine. I'm not missing. Like I just need alone. I need to be alone for a while. So here's the thing, Carrie had been diagnosed with bipolar and so her mom was a little bit nervous.

Like maybe she had stopped taking her medication and when she had reported her missing, police searched her home just as part of the routine missing persons report procedure. And it looked like all of the medication had been left in the apartment. So they're thinking, uh-oh, if she is kind of out there running around and she's not medicated,

who knows like how she may be reacting. And she could be experiencing a serious mental health crisis. And so of course, Nancy is thinking, Oh, no, now I'm really worried. Like maybe, you know, this is clearly so out of character to go non-contact. And by the way, I remember her son Max, her son Max is just like living with his grandma now because just Nancy can't figure out where his mother is, where her daughter is. Oh my God. So she's just watching Max and trying to just calm him and say, oh, you know, she'll be back. But meanwhile, investigators found Carrie's vehicle.

It had been abandoned and they found it in January, 2013, but Carrie was not with the vehicle and they had no idea where she is. And investigators nor Carrie's mother, nor anyone, I guess, knew how bad things would get because Carrie didn't just vanish. She had actually begun this terror campaign against this guy, Dave Krupa. Essentially, day in, day out, she is sending him threatening texts and emails. She's using dozens and dozens of new phone numbers, email addresses. So Dave had no hope to block her.

It was just one of those things where like that harassment that you just can't even touch because of- Can't escape. The second you block, can't escape, you block one, three more come from a different direction. One day Liz stops by, she's totally distraught. This was honey number one. Oh, honey number one. She needs to go into hiding.

She shows up and her car has been vandalized. Someone has dug a key deeply through the side of her vehicle. And what year was this? Did Carrie have the ability to... 2013. Okay, I was going to say, could she so easily find this woman and know what her car looked like and all that? Probably.

It's a small town, you know, if you think like Macedonia, like just Nebraska border town. I think it's pretty small. And she had seen Liz when Liz stopped by that one day, So she knew enough to know her name. She probably had talked to him about his, or his like other partner, Liz. So, you know, there must've been ways that she knew how to find her.

So someone had clearly keyed the car and Dave is now telling Liz like, please be careful. And then Dave gets a text from Carrie about Liz saying, she is responsible for destroying us. I am more diabolical than a few scratches on a car. So like you kind of hinted at, Liz is now a target too. And somehow Carrie had gotten Liz's phone number and like we just discussed, maybe internet,

maybe phone book, who knows. But she gets Liz's phone number and she starts sending her texts such as, I will do more if you don't leave Dave alone, you whore. Oh, my God. Just like now harassing Liz and Dave simultaneously. Dave and Liz both contacted the police about the harassment and they treated it like a standard case, but they were stuck because like nobody knew where Liz was.

Right, you can't even find her to serve her papers. Exactly, you can't even do a restraining order. Exactly, how are you even going to find her? So every day, Carrie texted Dave while he was out, and the scariest part was she started sending him detailed messages about what he was doing and where he was. So she was watching, watching in real time. She started sending him detailed messages about what he was doing and where he was. Ew, so she was watching in real time.

Watching in real time. Once, for example, he was at a diner having a cup of coffee, and he got the text, How's that coffee taste? Ew! Yeah, yeah, yeah. Once he was out with his kids, and his... Oh, fuck. out with his kids and his, yeah, she texted him, like, I see you and the kids out at the park or I, you know, anytime he was with them on the weekends, she would like not only say he's with the kids, but say she knows where he is with the kids. She would say, she would text him at work. I see you at work. And just to prove it She would describe his customers like you know

Like does she not have a job like what is she doing? I know right? It's like get another hobby to figure out puzzles or something One text read every whore you talk to I take pictures of their plate number I don't care if they are just customers, I will go after them. Oh my God, wow, so it's not even, it's not even like people he's hooking up with, it's fully like just anyone that's in your circle.

That feels threatening whatsoever, yeah. And like, by the way, is he, oh fuck, I forgot it. Okay, keep going, I'll figure it out. Okay. Carrie was clearly, like you said, watching him closely in real time and staking him out. So investigators did what the detective described a reverse stakeout,

where they're looking for her while she's looking for Dave. Well, I guess that makes sense because if she's nearby him, then at least I know that she's nearby him. Right, but she's like so speedy or she knows better, so they cannot fucking catch her. They even went door to door in areas where she had stalked Dave, like showing her photo and like nobody had seen her.

She was either hiding in her car or hiding so well that nobody had spotted her. But of either hiding in her car or hiding so well that nobody had spotted her. But of course, despite these just being texts, things escalated pretty quickly. She began threatening Liz's children. Yeah, it was bad. His ex, so Amy, the one that I initially talked about, the mother of his children,

she started to get uncomfortable for obvious reasons. She didn't want the kids staying at Dave's apartment with this stalker running around. So instead he would go to her house to spend time with them there. And Dave felt like immediate, immense guilt about all of this. Like I brought this woman into our lives, like I trusted her,

and now look what she's doing. She's ruining, she's going for everybody else in my life. Like I've brought this person upon us and upon my kids, my ex, and he felt especially bad for Liz, his honey number one, because she is getting like the brunt, aside from him, she's getting the brunt of all this. And he wanted to protect her and probably to Carrie's major chagrin, they began to bond over their mutual stress over this whole situation and rekindled their relationship. I mean, come on, like a bond forged in hate

is stronger than anything else. A trauma bond, a shared enemy. all she's doing is giving them more reasons to like each other. Like leading them into each other's arms, yes. So at this point, Dave receives a text from Carrie's phone and Carrie has texted photos to him of the inside of Liz's house. Oh, fuck that.

Like immediately, like, by the way, why is Liz not just ending things with him being like, you call me when this is handled? You know, it's almost like the way that they phrased it was like he wanted to protect her and he became so sort of like, he felt so responsible for the situation that I guess he kind of swooped in and was like,

and they'd been like on and on again, off again, so he just sort of swooped in and was like, hey, I'll stop this and I'll make sure you're safe. And I guess for whatever reason, she felt safer with him than without him. You know what's even creepier too is like, I mean, I don't know where we were in 2013. I mean, that's laptop material. Like she could have taken, like logged into different

passwords in her house and she could have access to her phone so she knows when they're texting. Very true. I hadn't even thought of the laptop thing. Yeah, so he starts getting these photos of the inside of Liz's house. And when they rush over or he rushes over to the house and Liz comes and they look inside and above her bed in red lipstick,

Carrie had written, go away whore. Oh, this girl's nutty. What is going on? Yeah. Things are- This is crazy. Things are bad. So she then breaks into Dave's apartment next where she lays out some of Liz's clothes on his bed,

like that she had taken from Liz's apartment, and she had cut them with knives, and she just sprawled them on, there's like photos of it, sprawled them on top of Dave's bed, and then texted him, she will die, no one can stop me. Oh my God.

Is that not so fucking scary? And this went on for over a year, Em, and Dave, Liz, and Amy, the other, like the mother of his kids, were convinced that this was going to end badly. Like this is gonna escalate and escalate until someone is seriously hurt or killed. There was at this point now a warrant out for Carrie's arrest,

but she's still in hiding. And Dave basically described it in an interview as slowly your normal kind of devolves into abnormal. The paranoia is your life. And I've heard this from other stalking victims who say like, you just learned to live in this heightened state where you're constantly on edge, you're constantly looking over your shoulder.

It just becomes normal, like normal behavior for you and your family. And this is what had happened. So he even got to the point where he said his reality and imagination began to overlap. It was almost like he couldn't tell where, whether he, Carrie was nearby watching and whether he was safe or whether Carrie was just lying

and saying, like, I see you. Like, was she really there? He never really knew. And so it was like mind games almost, you know? I mean, even like, I can't imagine, even if you're on like vacation or you get away from a weekend for a weekend, how do you know that she didn't like book the same flight? How do you know that she didn't follow your car?

How do you know there's not a tracker on your suitcase? Exactly. How much can she see? How much does she know your, didn't follow your car? How do you know there's not a tracker on your suitcase? Like how much does she see? Exactly, how much can she see? How much does she know your, is she in your emails? Like, does she know when you're flying, when you come home, is your house gonna be ransacked because you were traveling for a week, you know? It's really, really scary.

And perfectly on time, things escalate because one day, Carrie sends him a text that reads, and he's at work, and he gets this text that says, I see that nasty whore's house on fire. Oh! Was she in the house? So on the way home, not the way home, on the way to Liz's home, he receives a second text that says,

"'I hope the whore and her kids die in it.'" So he jumps in the fucking car. He races to Liz's house. It's on fucking fire. Like the entire place has burnt to the fucking ground. And thank God Liz is okay. She got out of the house. She's sobbing, like having a mental breakdown.

Fortunately, the kids were not at home for the, they were with, I believe their dad for that night, but all the pets in the house were killed in the fire. Oh my God, her big snake. Her big snake, two dogs and a cat, which is- Oh my God. I mean, thank God the kids weren't out there, but still like pretty devastating

and the whole house burned down. So Liz is like, I'm moving away and I'm not telling Dave where I'm going. Yeah. And he goes, you're correct. Please do that. I don't want you to be part of this anymore. And in fact, he actually moved away as well,

partially due to the fact that Carrie had sent him a text saying, guess what? I moved into your apartment complex Fuck that Fuck that so Apparently that enraged him to such a point. So wait so now she moved into his apartment complex So now we know where she lives. Can we now serve her restraining order not that it'll help. Okay, so Get this he goes he's so pissed off that he's like,

you know what, I'm gonna go confront her right fucking now. I'm not even calling the police. I'm gonna go to her apartment now. So he is furious. He walks through the complex ready to confront her. He's looking at the text, it says apartment 12. He turns the corner. He's getting more and more anxious

about this confrontation. And he looks down the hall, looks at the doors, he realizes there is no apartment 12. She just made it up to fuck with him. Ah! And so at this point, he's out of there. He moves, he gets a new phone with a new phone number, a new job.

He's like, I need to start fresh. And you know, back when he met Carrie, he had just started fresh. So he's like, hopefully I can just like, clean slate start over. But meanwhile, Nancy is still like really worried about her daughter, even though, you know, she's apparently allegedly like, harassing everybody and being, you know, blamed for this arson and stuff. It's still her daughter and she's still really worried about her mental health crisis. She really wants to find her. And within her own family, Nancy's family, her husband, I'm sorry, Nancy's husband, Kerry's dad was terminally ill.

And, you know, Nancy is texting or Facebooking Kerry and saying, your father's dying, like, please, he wants to see you before he passes. And she's only getting like really short answers back. And Nancy's just pretty distraught that Carrie would leave when her father was dying of a terminal illness. And unfortunately, Carrie's dad did pass during the time she was missing.

And when Carrie missed her dad's funeral, her mom was like, okay, something is terribly wrong. In the Netflix documentary, by the way, it's called Lover, Stalker, Killer. Nancy says, quote, "'Two weeks, three weeks after he passed,' so this would be her husband or Carrie's dad. She said, "'Two weeks, three weeks after he passed,

I had this very vivid dream about him.' And in that dream. She said, two weeks, three weeks after he passed, I had this very vivid dream about him. And in that dream, he said, Nance, Carrie's with me, it's okay. Oh shit. So now, according to her and her mother's instinct, she is sure that her daughter Carrie is dead. Yeah. And Max is 14 at this point,

so she's just trying her best to give him some stability. She's just lost her husband. She can't find her daughter. She's raising another child, all this stuff. She's raising a preteen who is also wondering where his mom is. And although Carrie had spent over a year terrorizing Liz and Dave and their families,

to Nancy, of course, she's still like her daughter and vulnerable and missing and likely in need of medical intervention. And Nancy, like I said, is convinced Carrie has passed. So she continues to pursue the missing persons case. And two Pottawatomie County sheriffs became interested in the case as well when they get some information on it.

At first, they thought of it as just a compelling puzzle, like where is this woman? But once they met with Nancy and spoke to her about Carrie, they decided, you know what, this is a little weirder than we thought. We're gonna dig into this and find some answers for Nancy. Dave, meanwhile, is bouncing back. He's trying to start fresh. And once again,

he's in a new place with very few connections and he decides he's gonna give dating another go. So he matches on Plenty of Fish with a woman and they seem to hit it off and they arrange a date. And he's sitting in the restaurant and she's late. So he's like, oh god, maybe I'm getting stood up. And then his phone buzzes. And it's a text from this woman. And she says, I'm so sorry, I'm running late, but I'll be there in a few minutes. He waits, he waits, he waits. Another hour goes by. She still never shows. So he gets up to go and his phone buzzes. He looks at his phone and it's a text from that same

woman he's about to meet for dinner drinks. And the text says, this is actually Carrie, fuck you. And she probably watched from the car that he just waited around for somebody else. Was getting up to leave. Isn't that so freaky? It was like when he got up to leave, the phone, the text came through. That's also so terrifying

that she was able to create a whole new account that she knew he would maybe swipe on. Yeah, to match with. Ugh, God. Ew, that's so creepy. I hadn't thought of that. Ugh. So basically, now that this door has been almost reopened accidentally, Carrie begins to double down on her attacks. Suddenly, Amy, who from the beginning

wasn't really part of this, like it was just Liz usually, because Liz was a more active partner and was a more threatening, I guess, character to Carrie. But now Amy, his ex-wife, Dave's ex-wife, and the mother of his two kids is also getting these alarming texts. One day she's at the park with her kids and a text comes through from Carrie reading, Ryan is on the slide.

Oh. Yeah. Oh my God. Like the heart sinking to your stomach feeling. I can only imagine. So she's of course like, oh shit. She's running through my mind like panic. What do I do?

And then the phone buzzes again, it's another text it reads, and you're pushing Lexi on the swing. So she's like, we're out of here, packs up the kids and heads out. And Amy gets more texts from Carrie that say, keep away, stay away from Dave. One, according to Amy,

and she clearly had a hard time reading these aloud on the documentary, but she read one of the texts that said, I'll slit your kids' throats in their sleep. Oh my God. This is like Dave's kids, you know? It's like, it's just getting out of control to the point that- I mean, like if she can't have him, nobody, nobody can.

Exactly. Anybody, everybody is a threat. And is in danger. So one night, Amy found... This is just like a sad little side anecdote, but she found her young son asleep on the couch with a baseball bat, and when she asked why he wasn't in bed, she woke him up and he said he was going to protect them. His mom and sister, and that's why he was sleeping on the couch. And he was like pretty little them, his mom and sister.

And that's why he was sleeping on the couch. And he was like pretty little. I don't know how old, maybe eight or I'm not sure, but a little kid. And so at this point, Dave is telling his family about this and Dave's father is like, you know what? Enough is enough.

This woman is making your life a living hell and this is gonna get physical. So he bought his son, Dave, a pistol. And Dave was like, I'm not a gun guy. woman is making your life a living hell and this is gonna get physical so he bought his son Dave a pistol and Dave was like I'm not a gun guy like I'm not the type to carry a gun so he put it up in his closet out of reach of his kids but one night he came home just a roofing day opened it was missing oh fuck me oh my god oh my god oh my god he the way god. Oh my god. He, the way he describes it, he says he opens the closet

to get something and he notices the box has been moved. Like to, because it's always been in the same spot, he hasn't touched it. And he opens the door and it's in it, it's shifted slightly. Does she have cameras? Like how often, first of all, how often is she going into this house when he's not around?

Second of all... Isn't that scary too? You don't know. And, but like she must comb through his entire place every time because why would she see a box in a closet and think that that needed looking through? Also, why are we not putting security cameras in this damn house yet? What is going on? I know. I mean, I think back then like you think that was 10 years ago. I think this is, like, pretty early for, you know... He works as a car mechanic. He doesn't make that much money. Like, I don't know if he can afford to have, like, live-stream camera setup, you know? I mean, obviously, at this point,

I can see why you'd probably make room for the expense somehow, but who knows if he could afford it? Who knows if that was even an option in their area? Like, I don't know. I probably make room for the expense somehow, but who knows if he could afford it? Who knows if That was even an option in their area. Like I don't know I just I just know that was such a shift in technology back then like 2013 like we were still in college I still had like a fucking Blackberry phone I even wonder if he if he moved if he up and moved and even amy moved and everyone like would she fly?

I mean she would I don't even know Why I'm asking she would fly like follow them. Yeah, it sounds like it I mean clearly this has become like her full-time career at this point and The gun like I said isn't is missing now. So He's just like shit So meanwhile authorities are looking through the report. Those two detectives specifically who met with Nancy, Carrie's mom, are trying to like untangle

what on earth is going on here and where is Carrie. And so they go back and look at all the photos, the original report about Carrie's first disappearance. And when they're looking through photos of her apartment and her belongings, it looks like she hadn't taken any of her items, any of her things. All her clothes, shoes, personal items are still at home as if she had planned to come back any moment, not to mention all her medications. Then when they looked into her bank history, they see there are only two transactions shortly after she left and

she never took out cash. And so they're thinking like, how is she surviving without any money? So the investigators start thinking maybe Nancy is right. Maybe we don't have any evidence that Carrie is alive. The only proof are all of these messages and emails that had come from her. But technically anybody could have sent those. And nobody had seen Carrie Farver in over two years.

Yeah, I've got my theories now. So the question became, if not Carrie, then who has been stalking and tormenting Dave, Liz, Amy and their families for the last two years? So this is where a special guy who's special in my heart comes into the picture. His name is Tony Cava, and he is the volunteer IT specialist

at the Sheriff's Department. They describe him as a volunteer. He's hilarious, by the way. He walks into the interview in the documentary holding all these cups. So like immediately, one of me, a person like me, the documentary holding all these cups. So like immediately one of me, a person like me comes in with all these just cups and he's kind of stumbling around and he starts describing what is in each cup, like what beverage and he's like this one has caffeine, this one has caffeine, this one has caffeine. Someone asks what he was drinking.

Sounds like everyone's dad. Everyone's dad. Yeah, it does. It's a very dad. And they asked specifically what he's drinking and he said, Soylent. And they said, what's Soylent? And he said, it's what nerds drink instead of eating. He said, for the most part, I just drink two or three of these a day and then eat some hummus. And he said, also, I don't know if it's clear, but I'm also apparently on the spectrum. Okay. He is someone sad for sure. He's such a delight. He's just like too funny, like the way he describes himself and he's just like,

I don't know, they say I'm on the spectrum. Um, but then he's like, anyway, these are all my many cups. Do you want to hear about my Soylent? Uh, so yeah, it just, it just made me laugh. I haven't even seen the show. I don't know what your face looks like, but I do know probably with Soitnti, you are, something's going on. Something's going on. Yeah, yeah. And he actively addressed that. And it's so funny.

He's a volunteer IT guy and they said they pay him a dollar a year because he just wants to be part of it. So they just give him a dollar to do it. And like, he's really good at his job. He sounds great. And so, yeah, he does. He is. And so he's like, you know what, I'm going to get in on this case. Like something is going on here. So he spent countless hours digging through the data of thousands of emails and texts from quote unquote Carrie. And he is searching for an IP address. So for those who don't know, it's the internet protocol address. It's the number which each computer has

and you're able to basically trace a message back to a source and location. But if you're using a VPN, a virtual private network, you can reroute your IP address and it'll come from somewhere else. So you can almost hide your location and it can make your data private. So this guy, Tony, decides he's gonna write

his own computer program to sort through all of this data because it's two years worth of messages and emails and he's like tracking every single IP address from every single one of these texts is gonna take forever. So he writes a whole program to begin, I know, to begin sorting through this immense amount of data until he's able to start narrowing it down. So there are millions of IP addresses that he's sorting through and this program is able to narrow down all these IP addresses to 13,000 unique IP addresses.

And then he's then able to use the program to determine the top 10 most used of those 13,000 unique IP addresses. And then he's then able to use the program to determine the top 10 most used of those 13,000. Eight of those were untraceable VPNs, but one of them stuck out. This was the number one most seen IP address out of the millions that he sorted through. And I quote Tony directly, he said without looking at a flash card or anything, he goes, oh, that IP address was 174.71.6.113.

He is, he is, something's going on. He is at the very least incredibly invested in something he assigned himself to, at the very least. Yes, yes. And that's how they describe him. They're like, he just shows up and just fucking knocks it out of the park. Like, he just knows how to show up and like kick our asses and then just take a dollar and go home. Yeah, he's great. Like, I'm sure he has a separate career path

that he actually does, you know, himself, but this volunteer stuff, he's just like, I guess I'll help solve crimes. Good for you, Tony. I stuff. He's just like, I guess I'll help solve crimes. Good for you, Tony. It's I know Tony's just like nailing it. So and he's very funny, like he's just very self aware, you know, about like, oh, people say I'm kind of weird anyway. You know, so he's great.

But so he narrows it down and he finds one IP address, which he just rattles off like it's nothing, 174.71.6.113. And that IP address actually linked to a private home address. So this is a huge clue, cause this is the most used IP address out of the millions. So he ran the address and this story to his shock, the address belongs to,

Oh my God, wait, I didn't even realize this until just now. The guy's name is Todd Butterball okay so here's the thing I didn't remember that I didn't remember that Todd Butterball Walter Butterfield and Trent Butterworth we've got the the butter trifecta we've got the hat trick. Bonk. That is a buttery hat trick. That's bonkers. That's butter bonkers. That's butter bananas. That's crazy.

That is just wild. So yeah, it's butter ball technically with an A-U-G-H, but still it sounds like butter ball. Butter ball, butter field, butter worth. All right. Butterbaugh, Butterfield, Butterworth. All right. We know now that... That's bananas. All three of them go into like an attorney at law office.

Oh yeah, yeah. Butterfield, Butterbaugh, Butterworth. Yeah. And associates. And then some of the name is like Schiff. And it's like, well, damn it. You ruined our whole thing. I'm sorry we made you partner, because now your stupid name ruined all of the Triple B.

We thought you would comment on this silently, but apparently you thought your name would be on the sign outside, so... I guess you think you're special enough for the sign. Fine. So Tony is like, wait a minute, I know Todd Butterball. He's like, I know Todd Butterball. He's like, I know that man.

I know him. He said, this was a huge shock because Todd works at Pottawatomie County and I'm his boss. Oh my God. Tony is literally this guy's boss. And then Tony, just in case anyone didn't notice, says, obviously this was an awkward situation.

So they actually had to hide the files on Todd because he worked there and had access to all those files and they didn't want to tip him off that they were now investigating him because he was in their office working with them. So yeah, awkward indeed. Awkward indeed. Oh my God.

So sheriffs go to the address, they speak with Todd. They're like, somebody's been using your IP address. Have you been sending all these threatening messages? And he goes, no. And they go, is there anyone else who might use your internet every now and then? He says, well, yeah, I have this on and on again, off again girlfriend who sometimes stays over and uses my internet. Her name is Liz Golyar.

What? Wait. Hang on. He goes, she moved in after her house burned down. Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my fucking God. Liz is the Looney Tune?

Wait a minute. Oh sure. What sure is? That would make sense why she was able to get into the place and cut up her own clothes and her kids were like out of the house. Oh, but she killed her own animals. Oh. I'm waiting for she killed her own animals. Oh, waiting for you to get to it. I'm waiting for you to get to it.

She killed all her own pets as part of this intentionally because she walked in one time and saw that he had somebody else. Wait. So then Carrie, she killed Carrie and has been pretending to be Carrie this entire time. Correct. Because Nancy has not been able to find Carrie. Correct.

And they've been, and so she's been bonding with him to get him to be closer to her through this. And Nancy, 100%. And Nancy had that dream where her husband passed and said, "'Don't worry, Nance, Carrie's with me.'" Oh. And she said, "'I woke up and I knew Carrie had passed.'"

Man. So it was until her, oh, I have chills, it was until her husband passed and was able to get her a message, like, Carrie is safe and she's with me, that she finally was like, okay, she has passed. Like, I have an answer. Ooh, it gives me chills. Wild that you're able to throw in some, like,

confirmation of the afterlife into this already banana story. I know! I mean, okay, and I just want to say, like, I felt so guilty the whole time, like, talking about how, like, nutty Carrie was, because, like, clearly it just want to say like I felt so guilty the whole time like talking about how like nutty Carrie was because like clearly it didn't end up being the case, but just So you everyone knows like for two years? Carrie was the culprit like she was the one on the run and no one could find her and no one can find her

And now I just want to say justice for Carrie You know, and I think what they did too is like, they took that bipolar diagnosis and ran with it. And we're like, oh, well, she's clearly unstable, you know, cause she was diagnosed with bipolar disorder. So she must be the one sending all these threatening texts. Meanwhile, Liz is just getting off scot-free. Is this not insane? is just getting off scot-free. Is this not insane?

Man, that was- It's insane. And do we think that she was not actually into Todd at all, but she was sleeping with him because she needed an alibi, or not even an alibi, but she needed like somewhere to be, and she was just kind of like sleeping with him to like have a place to stay or something? You know, I don't know, I don't know.

I don't know. Todd was such a, Todd Butterball was such a quick like blip. It was just sort of how they found out. But I feel like that, no, I think it was fully intentional because then he could come home and like talk about his boss to her and like she could get tabs on him at work. Hmm, his boss. You mean Tony? Like Todd, like, yeah, like she's like sleeping with Todd currently. Uh-huh.

Uh-huh. So that way Todd will come home where she's currently living since she set her own house on fire and talk about her, talk about her. Is Dave and Todd, they don't work together they do but they know Dave is an auto mechanic so this is like totally separate from Dave I thought I thought Tony or Todd I thought Todd worked with Dave okay I got there no sorry my accident I got there with actually wrong information, but I still figured it out.

But okay. My mistake. So Tony is the one who's like, I'm on the spectrum and I just write entire computer programs to solve crimes. And he finds the address and he goes, uh-oh, that's awkward, because I'm his boss. He works at the county. He works for the county with me,

like alongside me. I got the story confused where I thought we were back in the story of Dave saying, oh, Todd works with me. No, so at this point, Dave has no fucking clue any of this is happening. Like for what it's like, from his perspective, he thinks like, Carrie is still out there, harassed, trying to find him. Right.

And so they go to Todd's house, who works for the county, and they're like, what is the connection here? And he goes, oh, well, my on again, off again girlfriend, Liz, sometimes stays the night. She moved in after her house burned down. And they were like, oh my God. So that's when they realized. Did not mean to confuse everybody.

Everyone else was already on board. No, no. Thank you for the redo. There's so many names that I'm glad we reclarified because maybe honestly, if you were confused probably other people were. But yeah, so the pieces start falling into place quickly. They now have evidence that Liz has been posing as Carrie

for years harassing Dave and his family, sending message to herself, and then going to the police and saying, like, look at these messages I'm receiving. But it gets even wilder, because guess what? Now they've got to catch her in the act. So now she is the prime suspect in that disappearance, and when they contact Dave, he... Talk about shocked.

He's so shocked because in his mind, for two years he's had to protect Liz. Like it has not even crossed his damn mind that Carrie is not the one behind this. Imagine the bombshell. Like his, you could hear his skull probably crack from the brain exploding. Like what? No, that's like almost, that is almost from the brain exploding. Like what?

No, that's like almost, that is almost how he describes it. Like just stunning news. And you know, he felt so, he had felt so guilty about Liz and like trying to protect her and was trying to evade Carrie to find out that like the call was coming from inside the house this whole time. Yeah. It just must, and then, and then of course there's the guilt

of, oh my God, Carrie's dead. If Carrie has been gone for two years, she's probably dead and Liz probably did it. So now he's coming... This is all happening in his mind too. Suddenly Liz is the villain and Carrie is the victim rather than the other way around. And he had spent two years hating Carrie because she's ruining his life. And so Liz is fully unaware, she's so full of herself, she's unaware that the sheriffs are putting together her whole plot and meanwhile because she doesn't realize they're onto her, she ups the ante. She, so they start tracking her right because they're like well now we know prime suspect number one, we're gonna keep tabs on her.

Apparently she has started circling Amy's house every single day. She just drives around the block. Oh my God. Yeah. Okay. And so now they know, uh-oh, she has other plans. And she has his gun. And she has his gun.

Well, interesting you say that because on December 15, 2015, 911 dispatch received a call from a local park. A woman was screaming saying she had been shot. So when the call came in that a woman was shot in the park, investigators were immediately doubled over sick thinking that Liz had finally gotten to Amy and They raced to the scene and what they find is Liz She's been shot She shot herself Did she she did right she did

Wow, I mean So they're like, oh my god god it has Amy been killed they get there Liz is there and she says oh a woman shot me it was Amy and they're like okay so they're like wait it was Amy and she goes yeah Amy always hated Carrie and made threats about Carrie it's like now that she realizes she can't keep up the Carrie act forever, she's trying to blame Amy for Carrie's disappearance because she knows they'll find out that Carrie's gone.

And so now she's trying to make it look like Amy's always hated Carrie and Amy's so unstable. And they now are like, interesting. But of course they know they're pretty confident that she herself, interesting, but of course they know they're pretty confident that she herself, Liz, has stolen the gun and blamed Amy for it and then used it to shoot herself. So fun fact in Tony's recollection of events,

because Tony just likes to tell the story in the most fun way, he recounts that when the call came in about this shooting, he was busy directing traffic at a nativity play. Oh my God. And I love it because like it- Tony is like the character in a Hallmark movie where he just works every side job in town.

He just does- Oh my God, he's like the guy in Gilmore Girls that I finally watched, who like, what's his name, who has like some hand in like everything. The nerdy guy. Yeah, I don't know his name. I've only watched it in passing, the Gilmore Girls. Oh, I thought you were like really into Gilmore Girls.

I don't know why I thought that. But no, without even knowing like the name of that guy, I know what you're saying. He's like, he's the crossing guard at school, he's also the volunteer at the Christmas festival. He's also the... He also on the side does wedding photography or something and you're like, wait, what?

Go Tony. So that, I'm gonna look it up because it's gonna drive me crazy. Oh, Kirk, Kirk, Kirk. He's the Kirk of this town, of Macedonia. So of Pottawatomie County, he's the Kirk of Pottawatomie County. So, or maybe Kirk is the Tony of Stars Hollow. Maybe. Maybe. So basically they just keep that line in

about the Nativity play for no reason, which makes me laugh so much because you just know the producers were like, we have to keep that in there, even though it's like not relevant at all to the story. I feel like the producer was like someone like us who was like, they'll eat it up, don't worry. They'll know what it means.

We need a comedic relief somewhere okay um and they nailed it because he cracks me up so anyway this all happens uh Liz now claims that Amy is the one sending her threatening emails um and the sheriffs they know what's up right so they're like okay let's talk to Liz we're gonna pretend like we believe her and just like walk her into her own trap so they tell her hey you know what it's hard because like we believe her and just like walk her into her own trap. So they tell her, hey, you know what? It's hard because like we believe you that Amy is doing this, but you know, we don't have much proof.

Maybe you can go back and see if there are any emails that really like are, that incriminate herself, that incriminate Amy and Carrie's disappearance. And so they know that Liz is gonna turn around and start like creating fake emails or fake notes from Amy saying, oh, I killed her and that's precisely what she did. And meanwhile, the sheriff's speaking of the same situation, the sheriff's encouraged Dave to go stay with Amy and the kids to keep them safe. But the sheriff who did this,

they admitted they had kind of an ulterior motive. Obviously, they wanted the family to be safe, but they were like, we hoped Liz would see that Dave moved back in with Amy and his kids, like to goad her, to tick her off. It worked because she immediately, as soon as she found out, she began calling investigators, sobbing and screaming. She said, Amy gets to shoot somebody and then she gets to kill another person and then she just gets to move in with Dave. And they're like, we know it's so unfair to you, Liz.

We know how unfair it is. But here's the thing, because we have no evidence that Amy's involved, we cannot stop him from moving in with her. But hey, if you just happen to find any emails that prove she did it, like that would be so helpful. So like immediately after she calls and says, wow, I found all these emails. I got them all from Amy. Yeah. How convenient. And the emails detail, which now it gets fucked up again. The emails detail how quote unquote, Amy stabbed Carrie to death and burned the remains. And another email said to allegedly from Amy to Liz,

I shot you at big Lake Park because you wouldn't stay away from Dave. So she's like, see, she's admitting she shot me. It's like, okay. Okay. And of course they're able to see that Liz is sending the emails to herself and police know this.

And so because they're like, wow, this is too fucking easy. They say to her, they say, let's push it a little further. And they say, you know what? This is really great information, but we're gonna need a little more detail. It's too bad she hasn't sent much more detail about really what happened. Because if we got those details and we'd really know,

and that's what happened. Meanwhile, they search Carrie's vehicle for any evidence of blood. At first they cannot find any, but then when they remove the upholstery on the passenger seat, they find blood soaked all the way through the vehicle like into the base of the seat itself. The vehicle ended up being this crime scene they had been searching for the whole time. They also had access to, now

this is very interesting, okay? They had access to old data from Liz's phone due to her initial reports as a stalking victim because she came to the police saying, oh, Carrie's stalking me and they took her phone. And so they had all that data still and they found on it as they like re-combed through it, they found a photo of Carrie's vehicle that was taken while Carrie was missing and before police had recovered the vehicle. So in that window where no one knew where the car was, somehow Liz had a photo of the car on her phone

and she was too stupid to delete it before she handed them her phone. So in the car, they searched for fingerprints. They don't find anything except one fingerprint on a mint container in the vehicle's center console. And this one fingerprint that she missed on the tin of mints is Liz's fingerprint proving she has been inside the fucking car. Finally, with this fingerprint, they're able to arrest Liz. And of course she says she's innocent. You can watch it.

It's like really cringy to watch her say, I've never even seen the car. I've never been around the car. I would never lie about that. And it's like, girl, like you're so bad at lying. And it's like so obvious. And so she's insisting like, this is all a lie. I didn't do anything, but Tony is not done yet. Okay, Tony.

Of course. A year, okay, this just gets crazier. A year or so before he'd started working on this case, he'd actually been diagnosed with a brain tumor. But he was so invested in the case and that when it started getting the, when it started heating up the case, his brain tumor, when he got it checked, it had actually gotten bigger and he needed surgery, but he asked like, if I get surgery, will that impair my ability to work on this case? And they said, yes, it will for like several weeks, months,

what have you. And he said, okay, I'll hold. And he delayed his surgery because he wanted to work on this case so badly. The way that Tony's hyperfixation on this is... I know, I know. You know what, you go, Tony, you go, Tony, I love you. I love Tony, I hope he knows that.

Tony is, Tony is a star and he is like, I gotta get this shit figured out so I can get the brain tumor out of my head. So he's on the case. He pesters Dave repeatedly, basically saying, and anyone else on the case saying like, is there any way you have something in storage in a drawer, an SD card, a micro like anything that I could plug in, or micro SD card, like a flash drive, anything I can plug in and see if there's any files to dig through. And Dave goes, you

know, well, I do have like a storage facility, like a storage container somewhere. Maybe I'll go in and see if there's anything. So he digs through the storage unit. He does some digging around. He finds this old like clunky dusty tablet, like the old school like thick ones, and it's dead as a doornail. Doesn't even work. doesn't even turn on. But when they check the port on the side, there is a micro SD card inside this tablet. So Tony takes it, he looks through it, it's empty, it's been wiped clean.

So Tony basically says, hold my beer, and is able to retrieve all the deleted files off of this SD card. Yes! And guess what? There are 11,000 photographs, random photos, on this micro SD card, and there are a lot of selfies of Liz.

So he's basically realizing this is Liz's micro SD card, and as he puts the timeline together, he realizes this is the SIM card from Liz's old phone from right around the time Carrie went missing. She must've stuck it into this tablet and like either forgotten about it, wiped it clean and just like hit it away. And so he's scrolling through 11,000 pictures,

Tony is, everything, blurry pictures, houses, different rooms, selfies in her car. But then he spots one picture that looks different from the rest. And at first he thinks it's like a piece of rosewood. He describes it. He like can't tell. He can't quite make it out. But he keeps switching angles on it and messing with the filters.

And that's when he realizes that it is actually a picture of a foot, a human foot, like by itself. Just like it's just kind of a blur like you just see one Item on it and you can tell that it's a human foot. Okay, and so he is looking through this photo and He consulted his copy of Grey's Anatomy the medical textbook Okay, because on this picture not the show to be clear, but because on the foot he realizes there's something odd. He realizes there's this almost marbling. So he looks

in his Grey's Anatomy medical textbook and he sees that this venous marbling is a sign of post-mortem skin decomp. And he realizes this is a deceased person's foot. He also sees on the foot a tattoo. And of course, investigators are able to confirm that that is Carrie's tattoo. And so Liz, for some reason, had taken kind of a blurry picture of Carrie's remains before disposing of them. And this was the final piece that the prosecution needed to put her on trial. So they took this evidence, they put Liz on trial and she was sentenced to life without the chance of parole for first degree murder, sentenced to 18 to 20 years for the arson, which killed her pets.

And although the survivors of her attacks could finally find some peace, she had wreaked so much havoc in so many people's lives that they were still picking up the pieces for years. Dave felt sick knowing what had happened to Carrie and thinking like Carrie was behind it for all this time. He expressed his guilt in the Netflix documentary, Lover, Stalker, Killer, which I really do recommend folks. Like it's really cool to hear these people tell the story from their own perspective. If only to just see Tony, it's a fun watch. He expressed his guilt, Dave did, on the documentary saying, I don't feel blameless in all of this.

A lot of bad things happen to good people, all because of a series of events that I'm at the center of. And he had to get back to remembering Carrie the way she was those two or three weeks, because even the text from Carrie that said, can we move in together was not from Carrie. That was from Liz. Yeah.

So from that day on, none of it was Carrie. And so he had to try to like, rewind in his mind and remember Carrie for all the things that he loved about her and liked about her. And you know the way he described her was she had goals, she was smiley, she wanted to do something, she was just trying to make her way in this world. And you know she left a son behind, she left her mother behind, and it just was really really tough for him especially because, and for her mom as well obviously, because tough for him, especially because, and for her mom as well, obviously, because her mental illness, her bipolar was almost like used to convince people that it really...

To weaponize her image. Yes, weaponize her image. And meanwhile, she had been killed and was innocent and all of this. And investigators on the case felt like they needed to do something as well to honor Carrie's memory after trying to track her down for all this time when in fact she was a victim. So Tony said, when this case comes out or gets any kind of coverage, people go out and Google Carrie Farver. They Googled her name and the first thing they see is a picture of the person who harmed

her and that is a complete injustice. It wasn't fair what happened to her. It wasn't fair what happened to her. It wasn't fair what happened to her family. But now the public is able to donate to the Carrie Farver Memorial Scholarship, which is a fund for IT students at Iowa Western Community College, which was Carrie's alma mater.

And I think it's really special as well because Tony is an IT tech as well. So, you know, just like Carrie, and he helped solve her murder. Well, in terms of storytelling, this is probably one of your best stories ever, Christine. Plot twist galore. Yeah, I haven't felt my brain kind of short circuit

like that in quite some time. So thank you for the reset. I felt bad. I don't like to fool you like that. I like the occasional plot twists. OK, good. I just didn't want you to feel like I was misleading you. I mean, that's kind of how the documentary goes too, right?

It's like, oh, well, you think it's this person because it's so obvious. And then, wow, didn't see that coming. That was just one good set of storytelling, Christine. That was very, very good. Thank you. And we hit just about two hours. So you know what?

One of our shorter episodes. Sort of. One of our shorter ones these days. I don't know what's going on with us, but. Lately, we just keep talking, man. Well, we get to keep talking after this, because if you are on, if you are a member of our Patreon, you get to hear us in our after dark

slash after hours slash after something. It changes every week. And then on top of that, separately, you and I are recording another episode after this. So we are just yapping all day. Whoop, whoop, we're recording our listener episode for May. So that'll be exciting. Yeah we

are uh what did I say what was my story the talkies was like that's what today feels like. We're doing a talkies yeah. Just you know we would have really this is today's vaudeville we are we're doing it. Modern vaudeville yep. Uh well thank you everyone listening. This is a reminder Please go pre-order our book a Han of road atlas next stop. It is in our Show notes where you can get the link also our social media links or our bios. You can find the link there It's a whole new book. bit.ly slash a hra next stop if you are wondering and it works all lowercase as well now Megan made a lowercase one and HRA next stop if you are wondering and it works all lowercase as well now. Megan made a lowercase one.

And yeah, please go preorder our book. It helps us with our first week of numbers and- I'm sorry, it's not a HRA. It's just our bit.ly slash HRA next stop. Sorry, sorry, sorry. Preorder now and please join our Patreon if you want to. Nope. Christine wants to get out of here.

And. I just have to pee. That's. Why. We. Drink.