And That's Why We Drink - E383 Pseudo Armchair Ear Experts and Flower Pot London Fogs

Episode Date: June 9, 2024

Welcome to episode 383, if you learn anything from us today, don't eat 11 of anything all in a row! This week Em fulfills one of Christine's step-dad dreams when they cover the train-related ghosts of Ogden Union Station. Then Christine covers a doozy of a story she's so sure she's covered before but somehow hasn't... the murder of Travis Alexander by Jodi Arias. And, don't worry, we'll get that hair curled up in Em's ear out if Tik Tok has anything to say about it... and that's why we drink!If you or someone you know is in an abusive relationship, the National Domestic Violence Hotline is: 800-799-7233

Welcome to and that's why we drink starring Em Schultz and apparently Harry Potter again with these silly little glasses and Harry Potter has an announcement because well you said you have a lot to discuss are you okay? Oh I don't really have a lot I mean I don't know I just meant you said you have a lot to discuss. Are you okay? Oh, I don't really have a I mean I don't know I just meant you said you were excited to see me and I was like, oh we have to catch up on life Oh, I see. I you have an announcement. I do not have an announcement Can you can you make up an announcement since I did the whole intro? I mean I can say something like an announcement. Can you ask me why I drink? Yeah

Christine for them for the for the for the million dollar jackpot, why do you drink? My body is falling apart. I'm falling apart. I'm falling apart. Now you've been falling apart, but is there a new part of you that's melting off of you? I suddenly have adult onset eczema,

which like you've seen my little things. Is that what it is? Yes, I think so. Because it's all of a sudden, all over me, it's in my ears, it's behind my knees, it's under my arms and in my armpits, it's in my elbows, it's in my- It's only in my worst spots.

Yuck, it can't just be on your fucking leg. No, apparently eczema goes on the creases of your skin and that's why it sucks so bad. And I was just in San Francisco going wedding dress shopping with my friend and her fiance, Maddie, was like, oh, you have eczema too? And pointed at my arm and I went,

is that what this is? Damn. And then I was like, oh, that makes a lot of sense. So anyway, I woke up the day after I hadn't, I took a red eye home, barely slept, got home, woke up the next day, my whole body, like I was convinced I had COVID. Like my whole body was just swollen, every joint hurt,

like my, and it's just this inflammation. And I found out eczema is also an inflammatory thing and is like stress-related and an immune system thing, which is what Crohn's is. So now I'm like, it's like doubling down. Well, at least it makes sense. It does, it does. At least I know, but now I have to like,

go get all these allergy, like I have to get all these allergy tests. I've never been allergic to anything. And now it's like, now I have to figure out what the hell is making my body like break out in hives all these allergy tests. I've never been allergic to anything. And now it's like, now I have to figure out what the hell is making my body like break out in hives all over the place. I can barely like move my fingers because they're so swollen, like all my joints.

And like, I'm just, I just feel like I'm falling apart into a million pieces. We're not paying enough attention to the fact that someone just fully outed you and that was just what, oh, I have that too. That's a, isn't that what uh your friends your friend said of like oh I have eczema too and that's how you're finding out? Oh yeah yeah she literally goes oh is that is that you have eczema and I went she goes

oh yeah it's all in the creases and I went oh my fucking god. What a bold behavior though because I feel like I I feel like I just learned like you just don't talk about this. Well I mean I think I was probably like itching my arm and being like, I think I have some weird rash. And she was like, that's eczema. It's in your elbow. See your doctor. And I was like, OK. I mean, listen, I'm all about people helping me figure out what the fuck is going on. Otherwise, I'm just going to scratch myself to death. The only time as a kid, like so I had this elbow thing as a kid right here, like I would get this rash right on my left elbow. And it was only when I ate too much red food Like, I would get this rash right on my left elbow

and it was only when I ate too much red food coloring or one time I ate 11 oranges and then it happened. Interesting. So orange food coloring it seems. Maybe it's, well, maybe it's red, orange. Maybe it's like citrus. I don't really know. Or maybe I just shouldn't eat 11 of anything in a row.

Mm-hmm. But the point is, I don't know what the fuck is going on. I'm convinced, I'm't really know or maybe I just shouldn't eat 11 of anything in a row But the point is I don't know what the fuck is going on. I'm convinced. I'm convinced It's gonna be like either red wine coffee or like my weed gummies Like I guarantee it's something in one of these they're gonna be made. Yeah, they're gonna be like stop taking that It's gonna destroy you. So you're gonna be hearing more of why I drink or don't drink in the coming months. Oh and guess what? I called the doctor, no I didn't, I emailed the doctor on my portal, who am I kidding? And I said hey I need an appointment and they said okay great we've got you scheduled for June 4th and I went cool that's my birthday, yay. So the birthday is my 33rd, it's gonna be full of being poked with needles and all these allergen tests and it'll be a time.

I always wanted to know somebody who did an allergy test, so I'm glad you can report to me. I did one as a kid and all it said was dust and mold. And it wasn't for skin issues, it was like for sinus stuff, so it was dust and mold. And now, I don't know what. Fuckin'. Don't they have to do the thing where they like

stab you with 50 needles all at once? Yeah, they put it all down your back and then they like see what you react to. It was a very alarming experience as like a 12 year old. Yeah. But yeah, I'm doing that again and I'm going to see a dermatologist. Oh, and my PCOS is back. It's like my whole body just went, because I literally was just telling Renee, you know, I was diagnosed with PCOS, but I feel like it's really mild or like,

really nothing really ever happens. Wham, like everything. And I don't know if it's cause I'm not sleeping much. Like I'm on all these red eyes. They say, of course, stress triggers it. I don't know, but I just feel like I'm falling apart. I feel like there's also something to be said about like, the mental block of like not knowing about it.

And then once you like accepted it in your body, then it's worse or something. I don't know how true that is. I feel like that's a little woo woo. It's like thank you for noticing me. Well, okay. And the other thing I noticed, cause of course I'm on Reddit,

like looking at people's experience with adult onset eczema cause it's usually you have it from childhood. And cause I'm like, oh my, that's how I fucking pop my eardrum by the way, because my ears have been so goddamn itchy that I kept like scratching them. And that's how I fucking pop my eardrum, by the way, because my ears have been so goddamn itchy that I kept like scratching them and that's how I pop my fucking eardrum. So it's like, anyway, it just feels like every little thing.

Well, that freaks me out. Cause I have one real itchy ear all the way on the inside. And that's why I love my Q-tips, which I know is bad. Don't say anything to me. Shoot me in the face. I don't even care. Okay, here's the situation though. Well, don't do that.

Let's start with that, but okay, go ahead. I don't even care. Okay, here's the situation though. Don't do that. Let's start with that. But okay, go ahead. Here's the situation with these ears, because it makes me, now that you've mentioned it, we have to talk about my ears. I wanna rip them off. They're so itchy. So now you're freaking me out that maybe I have eczema.

But here's the situation. I also have really weird, this is like one of Alison's favorite things to do, is tweeze these off of me. I have weird, like three inch long hairs, like in random parts of my body. Whoa. Like I have one on my arm.

I have one on my arm and they grow like a weed, like I won't have it and then the next day I have it. And so it's like this fucking long on my arm. I have one behind my ear that Alison loves to check behind my ear and like rip that shit out. And it goes in the same spots? All the time, it's always this fucking long on my arm. I have one behind my ear that Alison loves to check behind my ear and like rip that shit out. And it goes in the same spots? All the time. It's always in the same spot.

So Alison likes to check my ear hair. And so, and, but I think I literally, I've been thinking the one in my ear that hurts so much. You have to get a fucking thing from TikTok, the camera. I really think it's just one really long hair just spiraled around like a cobweb. It really just breaks me. I know.

And the more you put a Q-tip in there, it's gonna press it down, you know? No, I keep thinking I'll like accidentally tug it out. No, you can't do that with a Q-tip. You gotta get in there with like a, you gotta get one of these, when you come visit, I'll get a new sterilized thing and we can go looking in your ear.

Doesn't that sound fun? That does sound fun. I really also, but if you find a hair in there, I'm not gonna be able to rest. I'm gonna make you or boys put tweezers in there. Oh no, it has attachments. That's what I'm saying. You can get some out of there.

Yes, we're gonna find out. I'm gonna heal you. And then you're gonna tell me. And then you're gonna tell me what. Thank you, Harry Potter. Thank you. Alec and Davarazoo. I don't know how to. No, it's really like, I get so itchy.

I literally get in a bad mood because the inside of my ear is so itchy, but I really. I appreciate that, but like I need you to understand that my whole body feels like it has bugs all over it. And like I want to scrape all my skin off. So as much as I really appreciate that you're empathizing with me I I try I understand I do understand fully because I have you ever inside my ears and now my ears are like weeping you know like they're all have you ever scratched yourself with a steak knife that's a good time with a butter knife but not a steak knife no because it's serrated you gotta do the serrated and you don't like cut like a

knife but you just you just kind of do a scrape. You scrape it though. Yes, I've done that. Over a mosquito bite. Are you kidding me? Oh my God. Oh yeah. I just like scrape all my skin off.

So anyway, that's what's up with me. But I am sorry to hear about your long ass hair in your ear. That's so, it's like a nest. That's the theory. They could, maybe I have eczema. Maybe I got something else, but the long hairs are odd.

Or maybe you just have an itchy ear. If someone could explain the rant, That's a theory. They could, maybe I have eczema, maybe I got something else, but the long hairs are odd. Or maybe you just have an itchy ear. If someone could explain the rant, it's almost like a follicle from my head when I was born. It just never got all the way up to my head. It just stayed on my elbow or something. Right, because that's how they work. They migrate from your elbows up to your head.

That's what it feels like. Their hair length, if I don't cut them, they'll just keep growing like it doesn't end. Like it'll grow like a long head hair. Why do you keep cutting it? I wanna see how long it gets. I don't want to. I wanna put a little bow on it.

Maybe we could take the arm hair and get it all the way to my head hair and we can braid them. Oh, cute. Yeah, we could also crimp it or, I mean, there's a lot of fun things we could do. Next time, you know what? For your belated birthday present, time I have one, I'm going to yank it off. I'm going to send it to you and then stroke yourself with it. You don't like that.

The second hair is detached from anybody. I'm like, I don't want it anymore. If it's on your body, fine. It doesn't bother me. But like if it's off your body, get it away. I don't want it. Do you have any weird hair things? Yeah, I mean, I have everything, Em. My body is falling apart. I do, I have a scar hair right here that gets like so effing long, just like you said, like Father Time, just one hair. And it's where when I was three,

I was chasing my boyfriend Diamond on the playground. And he was my husband. I don't think he knew that, but now he's like, now he's the head of like the gay coalition in Cincinnati. So I think that that went south. But so he, he calls you his ex to his friends. Yeah, I wish, I wish.

And I was chasing him and I tripped on the sidewalk and I bit through my lip, you know, and so like I split all the way through. And so I have a scar that goes like from the middle of my chin all the way through my lip. And so this scar, there's this one hair just grows out of my chin. So every now and then, Lais will be like,

oh, scar hair's back and we have to pull it. But it gets really long. I don't know. I don't know why. You mentioned PCOS, but as someone with PCOS, the chin hair is unreal. Yeah, the hair's, and now I'm getting a mustache too, which I can also tell is someone with PCOS, the chin hair is unreal. Like it's cozy. Yeah, the hair is, and now I'm getting a mustache too,

which I can also tell is cause the PCOS is starting to rear its ugly head again. And I'm like, great, now I need to wax my face again. I am just falling apart. Or your body is cold and a lot of hairs are just kind of growing everywhere. It's trying to protect me with its one scraggly ass hair. Thank you body. That one part of my arm, I'll tell you,

she is warmer than everything else. Good. She's got her big, long caterpillar hair. I can't wait for you to be in the Guinness Book of World Records for the world's longest arm hair. Next time I see you, I will tell Alice and she's not allowed to pluck my ear hair. So you can see what the hell I'm talking about.

Because it's odd. It's very weird. It's like an earring. Well, I'm going to be invasively looking inside your ears with a camera. So I think that- Please. Please. I got to understand what's happening there.

It's so freaky. And you know what's going to really kill me is if I find out that it is a hair and now anytime it gets itchy, I'm going to just, I'm just going to know what's happening in there. I'm just going to fly out- Like right now the mystery-

Your personal- Ear-tologist? Ear, nose and throat doctor. I don't even wanna say doctor. Ear, nose and throat pseudo armchair specialist. I've told you before, I'm definitely the pimple popper in the couple. Ooh, I love popping a pimple.

Not even mine, I don't even care. If I see one on your face, I wanna get it. But... Well, get away from me, because again, my hormones are out of control right now, and I'm breaking out everywhere. Well, Allison's the hair plucker, so, you know, we balance each other out nicely. This is such a charming start to our show.

Is everyone having fun? You know, I feel like our listeners age with us, so maybe they're all in the same place as us, and maybe we need to normalize body funk. You know what I keep thinking is, like, sometimes I'll see my neighbors and they're like, oh, I just heard your episode. And I'm like, oh God, now Ann knows about all my skin problem.

Now Ann, poor Ann, she's like, I don't need to know your ears are weeping. That's disgusting. You know who some of the most loyal listeners to the show is Allison's parents. And every time- They've known me for 11, 12 years. They know probably the worst of the

worst, to be honest. Well, they know me less. Not anymore. Oh, man. No, I... Yeah. And to the younger listeners, just let this be a warning. Enjoy what you have because it really... They were all right. It really doesn't last forever. So... Yeah, we're here to be fear mongers. Fear mongers. We're here to be fear mongers.

We're here to be alarmists, check the backs of your ears for long, long hairs. And check your ears for eczema apparently, and your arms. No, don't check your ears for eczema. That's how I fucking poked a hole in my ear. Don't do anything to your ear. Go to the doctor and figure it out. But if you have a weird rash, it might be eczema.

Oh, and then Maddie said, and then Maddie said, oh, did you get COVID? And I said, yeah, who didn't, am I right? And she's that, yeah, it wasn't funny. And then Maddie said, and Maddie said, well, joke landed in the ocean and nobody saw it. She goes, oh yeah, after I got COVID,

my eczema flare ups have been so much worse. And I'm like, okay, so maybe this is like more of this bullshit post COVID stuff. I don't know, but in any case, my body is falling apart. I've taken about 700 pregnancy tests because I'm so afraid and I'm not pregnant, thank God. But everything's going haywire. So I thought, well, maybe I'm pregnant.

I don't know. But no. Like your hormones are all fucked up, up. Yeah, but no, it's just my body's having a good time fucking around You know, it's like you're all your chemicals and you were trying to turn 21 again and just yeah, they're like fuck Well, what are you drinking I guess a cold cup of water because you're scared just water just water. How boring am I? Well, you know, I'm having a good day drink wise and not really cuz I actually just got heartburn as I said that sentence but I I started out with a bad morning. Let's start there because Allison woke me up and she said I need you to do me a favor and usually a favor if you're waking me up At the butt crack of dawn,

I'm wondering what this favor could possibly be. I thought it was, can you open the door or can you get another blanket? It was- Like reach something tall. It was, hey, can you drive across town? I need you to go to the house and I need you to unlock the garage door.

Wait, wait, oh wait, wait, wait, wait. Did she call you or did she wake you up like- Oh no, she woke me up to do it. Like in person. In person. Wait, wait, oh wait, wait, wait, wait. Did she call you or did she wake you up like- Oh no, she woke me up to do it. Like in person? In person. Wait, why? We were having roofers and things like that. Oh, somebody's coming to do that.

So she had to work. That's my guess. I was too tired. That sucks. You had to drive over there. It ended up being like a 40 minute trip. Yeah, you texted us at like 8.30. I was like, why are you awake, you freak?

I did? Or did I text you? I don't know. You texted in the group and usually you don't text, no offense, but usually you don't text till 10 minutes before we record. So I was like, why are you texting? Yeah, this is how I ended up really not in a good mood.

And Allison, when I got back, she tried to be really nice and sweet on me and I was like, get the fuck away from me. I really- Nice try. You lost that privilege. Eva said, yeah, Em, you thumbsed up so early to the- Oh. But a thumbs up, I thought maybe you just rolled over.

Sure, sure, sure. Yes, it was 8 22 a.m. Like, what were you doing? I don't know. Yeah, I was about to drive to the house. And the worst part, this is what really, just like the tired brain of me Could not get past this is the way Allison framed it of oh, it's not important. I need you to do it right now You better at least pretend that you're a Marvel superhero by the end of it

Like you've done the unthinkable and the impossible and you've saved the planet It was like it I should say oh, it's no big deal, right? That's exactly how you wanted to speak. That's how you wanted it. So I left early, but that means I got to go to my favorite coffee shop. So I am drinking currently to get me through the day an El Foggy. So I'm excited now.

If you told me how I got this drink, I would not have been pleased. Yeah, not worth it. And I got a second one for backup later, so very excited about that. Good for you. Anyway, I'm glad you're drinking water. Reminder to everybody else, my thirsty little rats, please drink, drink, drink. And I hope you and your skin are having better days than Christine and I today.

Me too. I have a silly little story for you, Christine. It's actually not silly at all. A lot of death. But this is the... Oh, that was quite a... Like the fastest 180 of history. Okay.

I realized that people might think it was like squonk territory and it's actually not. But I do have a story for you, and I thought you would enjoy it, because if there's one thing I know about Christine, it's that she loves herself, a train station. Oh, I do, oh, I do. I was just thinking about trains this morning. Are you 49 a man?

Yes, I took Leona, I feel like I'm 409. I took, but anyway, I took Leona to the toy store, because we were working on expanding, that was my morning, expanding her little, she has like a little German train set thing and it only has like three pieces. I'm like, oh, let's go buy more pieces. They didn't have it, end of story.

But I was there, I was looking at all the train tracks and I was like, Leona, aren't these trains cool? And she was like, I guess. You are literally everyone's stepdad. I know. Because if any stepfather came up to me and said, look at these train tracks, I'd go, what a hobby. What is wrong with you?

I'm such a dork. Well, we went to, I mean, you're probably gonna talk about, anyway, Em got to see me on a caboose recently and that was very, a very special moment. Oh, Christine lost her fucking mind on this caboose. I was like, I get to be on the caboose? It was really special. I actually don't think I knew about your love for trains

until that day. I don't think I really knew. I think I knew, kind of. But it was sort of like- You didn't even know? It was like playing second fiddle, so to speak, to my other interests, which are ancient Egypt and some other ones. So I think the trains just kind of like Wild West, cowboys, those are kind of the top two.

And then trains come in at a number three. You really are. Everything you just listed is something my stepdad would have a lot to say about. No wonder I'm just aging rapidly. My body's like, your soul seems to be 8,000. Let's advance. I feel like by the end of this episode,

you'll slowly start anamorphing into Tom. Well, your stepdad's Tom and mine's Tim, so I'll be like Tam. I'll be like right in the middle. I'll be, whatever word is right in the middle. I'll be Tom. You'll be Tom. I'll be like Tam. I'll be like right in the middle. I'll be, whatever word is right in the middle. I'll be Tum. And I'll be Tum. Well, so Miss Tum, here is our story

on the Ogden Union Station. Oh. And this is in Ogden, Utah, which I think we've covered Ogden at a different location on Ogden. It's familiar. It does seem familiar. Oh, well, moving on.

Anyway, that's enough of that. So we start in 1846, and the area was established by a trapper, which I like to think that's what you wore in a past life. Yeah, with the raccoon hat, for sure. Yes. And his name was Miles Goodyear, and he named the area, before it was Ogden,

he named the town Fort Buena Ventura. Ooh. Okay, fun fact. A year later, it got renamed real quick by another guy named Captain James Brown, and he named it Brownsville, of course. Let me guess, fucking Brownville, Brownsville, yep. Yeah. A few years later, it got renamed again to Ogden. This was within like a five-year period. It kept getting renamed. So

imagine being someone like a crotchety old man being like, I remember when it was when of Ventura. Back in the good old days. All five years ago. So yeah, apparently within five years it kept changing. Now it's Ogden in honor of a brigade leader, Peter Ogden. Great. And then despite all these names, by the late 1800s, it was known throughout the area as Junction City. And this is because Ogden, it's now, I don't think still called that, but at the time it was called Junction City. And this is because Ogden becomes a major town in railroading and acts as the official transfer point for all trains heading west. Ooh.

Very fun. Fun fact again is that Ogden was the third incorporated city west of the Missouri River. Third incorporated city. Oh, wow, okay. Which you're probably not gonna guess them correctly, but for fun, do you know what the other two might be? Let's see, how about? I'm just, this is fun.

They're nowhere near Ogden. I was gonna say, this is fun for me, because I'm just gonna name cities and they'll probably all be east of the Mississippi, and I won't even realize. Well, one is near Ogden, Utah. Okay. Salt Lake City. Yes.

Okay. One is Mesa, Arizona. No, but it feels the same distance. Okay. I cover Mesa in my story today, so I thought wouldn't that be fun? Oh, that'd be real nutty. No, San Francisco. Okay. I was close

Yeah, it's definitely not utah. Um But so which I don't think I understand what an incorporated city is Maybe I should have looked that up But when I hear incorporated city, I think like the only town to exist which I know is not true but Because in my mind i'm like, oh missouri there's all this stuff than the Missouri river. And then on the map, there's three locations that have people. Oh, and nobody, nothing else in between.

And nothing else. Just like between San Francisco and Salt Lake City, there was nothing. I feel like it just means like they have a post office or some shit, you know? Like, it means something probably official. Like they have a mayor or a city hall or something. Something like that. I, I once heard that, um, a city was only an official city once it had like five it had like a school a police station a Hospital a post office and like a grocery store I feel like you just talked about that a few weeks ago

And I think I said the same thing but it just feels like the sims like you level up once you've Yeah, like sim city like you once you've got all those features you finally get get the next level up on your Sims game. I don't know. Something like that. Anyway, I guess we'll never know, unless we Google it later. I guess we'll never know until everybody emails us, why are you so dumb?

Until the mayor of an incorporated city goes, I know exactly what's going on here. Yeah, you're exiled. Anyway, it was the third incorporated city, west of the Missouri Ogden was chosen as the city for a train station because of hefty donations the city got from LDS founder Brigham Young Which is weird because you would think he also was heavily involved in Salt Lake City I thought well, that's why I guess Mesa because there's also a large Mormon population there, which is part of my story today

So I thought maybe they were all Mormon towns, but I guess not Good good call though. I try State the station was let's see. Oh, okay So yeah So now Ogden is the chosen city for a train station The station was originally built in 1869 and I don't know who was in charge of the location Like like choosing where the station would go Boy, did they pick a bad place. They picked this like very

gross mudflat As the spot where they were gonna put a heavy fucking train that needs to be stable and nothing should break down but being on a mudflat the one of the worst parts of it was that passengers couldn't even get to the train without just being fucking wrecked in mud by the time they got to the train. You're like dragging your suitcases through mud. Which I didn't even write this down, but this is so topical. And Eva, don't you say a damn thing because we just had this conversation. We just, I just told Eva this. It blew her mind, it blew my mind, I need it to blow your mind. So just pretend even if you already know.

Okay. Do you know what year it became common for people to have suitcases with wheels? Like 1995 or something probably. How did you know that? What is wrong with you? Because I know about old timey shit, because I love old timey shit. Damn it, Eva, she's not as impressed as you are. Because I'm 8,000 years old. How many times do I have to with you? Because I know about old timey shit, because I love old timey shit.

Because I'm 8,000 years old. How many times do I have to tell you, I'm literally falling apart. I'm elderly and decrepit. I've seen it all. I've seen the trunks. They just had big ass trunks. Okay, well the answer was,

you were literally so close, it makes me so upset. It was 1993. I know, I was like, I'm gonna piss you off so bad okay oh yeah Eva says we literally talked about it for like two hours coming up it blew our minds where were the wheels gonna be on okay forget it because I at least thought think about 60s 70s and trunks and stuff no I know you're I remember I have seen

antique trunks but in my mind I think of those as like so far beyond my years early like the 20s and stuff. Yeah, that's fair. But I at least thought my parents had wheeled suitcases, at least. Like I didn't know we were the first fucking generation to deal with this. And so-

To deal with this, I think it's a benefit, I would think. I'd rather- Or to not deal with it. Oh, okay. It's like I'd rather have a fucking wheel. My mom, I actually, I literally was so freaked out about this. Oh, yeah Yes, Eva, I'm on it. Don't worry. What was like Eva just said make sure you you you mentioned your mom and I literally was so freaked out about this. It like blew my mind that I like called my mom and I was like this can't be real But do you do you have stories? Tell me about?

Your poor mom and I was like this can't be real but do you do you have stories tell me about your poor mom and because I guess when you think about it like I when I watch episodes like full house and stuff if there was an airport scene they were holding all their bags I guess but in my mind like a minute maybe like the Mandela effect or something I kind of just assumed some of them had wheels and some of them didn't I don't know But I was like, you couldn't have possibly lived your whole life until the 90s like this. And she said that it was very common. Like, I mean, it was not just very common. Everyone had just no wheels on their suitcases.

I know people older than us listening to this are probably like laughing, but it blew my mind. And she even said that it was common for men to try to impress you at airports by carrying your luggage for you. Yeah, well that's probably where that came from, that the men would always take the luggage. And well, so I was like, what about,

imagine us on tour with our big ass suitcases. Can you imagine carrying those with your bare hands? The way my arm would fall off. We would literally find men to do it, because we were like, no, fuck off. Feminism would have left the building. Out the window. But she would say like, oh yeah, like if you just like flirted with a guy at the airport,

like just put on the right lipstick and the right heels. On the right lipstick. They would just carry it for you. And I was like, oh, ow, it's so heavy, my poor little arm. I also don't know if evolution, am I just so used to not carrying suitcases that it would seem harder for me? Was it easier for that?

Because when I think about carrying a duffel bag, I think it's, my brain wants to implode. Well, I remember we would always have those carts, luggage carts. Yeah, okay, so Eva mentioned that, I think, in our conversation we talked about that, where I was like, oh yeah, I remember those carts where you would like put in a point and then...

They were like a big deal, yes. But apparently those carts only got you to TSA and then they didn't have carts after the TSA and that was when all the men would try to like hit on you and tear your back for you to keep. Oh, I see. Okay, okay. I see. But the whole concept just absolutely wrecked me for like 24 hours.

Well, if anyone out there is like rolling their eyes, don't worry, I'm with you. Because I was only two years off on my guess. Shut up. I literally thought I was going to like give you the same price as I had. Told you about my like unwell obsession with ancient things that are not interesting. So I feel like this fits the bill. Uh-huh. Well, you know, if anyone else is listening and they're relieved that someone our age isn't surprised,

that's when you get Christine. But if you're as blown away as I am, you've got me. Yeah, you get both sides. I was just, I think I just, the last thing I ever want to do is physical labor. And so the idea that that had to be, that was more recent in our timeline than I thought. It is kind of surprising, yeah.

Okay, anyway, moving on. And you think the caveman invented the fucking wheel, so like, hello? I was just like, who did it? Who took so long? And at some point, at some point, how did nobody think a wheel would suffice? We should put a wheel on this.

You'd think that that would have been a quicker update to luggage. I do agree with you. Yeah, even so the same thing. Wheels have been around forever. So like, it's just. Oh yes, I mean, hello. Like a caveman probably would have carried his luggage

on a wheel, so. Thank you. I feel a little more seen now because I was like, how did nobody come up with this? Apparently there were, I will say, wheeled suitcases starting in like the 70s, how did nobody come up with this? Apparently there were, I will say, wheeled suitcases starting in like the 70s, but like nobody had them, which again blows my mind.

They were probably like really expensive and fancy, you know. They had to be, because otherwise, how would you hear about a wheeled suitcase and go, that's stupid? Yeah, exactly. They probably were out of reach. They were luxury items. Also my stepdad, out of nowhere, who never texts me,

just said, hi Christina, how are you? Like he feels it somewhere that I'm becoming him. I think he's like sitting on a train somewhere. He's like, you know who would enjoy this? Yeah, my brain just thought of you. Well, anyway, that whole tangent was to blow your mind one, but two, let's go back to the fact that this train is built on a fucking mud flat and nobody can.

Right, okay, so now we're literally dragging all our shit through the mud and like through the mud or having to carry them I cannot imagine I cannot I would literally never travel if I had to lift things let alone Let alone quite a distance through mud to get on a train And it was literally so far away from any it wasn't like oh I have to like walk a couple like a block or maybe it was literally so far away from any it wasn't like oh I have to like walk a couple like a block or Maybe it was like a quarter to half a mile away from the train that they had to walk through the mud So now lifting all this stuff so they built this train station in 1869 and within the first like

Decade or so everyone was like we're not gonna use this fucking train. We would just rather never travel because this is- Really, it was that bad? That's sad. They're like, we don't wanna walk through the mud. We don't know how it is. And so then they had to put down this wooden track, essentially, like a boardwalk. So that way people would walk on the wood that way.

Apparently it was still too long and it was still like disgusting conditions. We're like mud would always end up on the boardwalk. And so they were just like, this is too inconvenient of a depot. I don't know who was in charge of this, but you have to change it. So by 1889, only 30 years later,

a whole new station has been built. And it was in a different area. And this train station is swanky and it's connected to, like it wasn't just a train station. They were like, we're also going to make this a hotel. So that way you can stay here and then just go downstairs and catch your train the next day. Smart.

So smart. And also like you literally don't have to walk at all now. It would, it would like walk half a mile in the mud to like go downstairs girl, you know? Yeah, you're already here. Which is like exactly how I'm trying to travel. So they had, it was a 33 room hotel. It had restaurants, it had convenience shops like barber shops and shoe shiners. That way you could get all your stuff

done. Or like if you had to get on the train and go see people right away from the train, you could already get your hair cut and look all fine and cute. The lobby had a bunch of murals, it had cathedral ceilings, it had sandstone carvings. It was like a very swanky, big clock tower through the middle of the building. These sandstone carvings, I wanted to know, it's like, what do these carvings look like? What are we deciding in 1889 is the thing to carve? Apparently it was just a bunch of fruit and there was a bowl. Oh, okay. So I looked up the bowl. That one was pretty obvious.

That one just meant strength, okay. Okay. But then I ended up on my usual spiral where I was like, what is the symbolism for carved fruits? Fertility. So some, basically I have a quote. This one is from like fineart.com. Cool. And it says the tradition stretches back to the Romans. This is have a quote. This one is from is from like fine art.com

And says the tradition stretches back to the romans This is a full quote the tradition stretches back to the romans who ascribed fruits to their gods and goddesses And ancient egypt where fruit was believed to await the dead in the afterlife and therefore depicted in the tombs During the middle ages though and the renaissance it became a visual language where each one symbolized something different. Fruits have been known to evoke the seasons, the senses, even allegories. It contains moral and social messages. In Bacchus' case, who is, he is symbolized by grapes. Yeah. Grapes is the fruit which leads to wine, which also leads then in Christian art to the blood of Christ, I learned. Oh, sure. In his case, it's about youth, beauty,

and the inevitable decay. Yuck. Oh, God, this is getting intense. It all gets intense. I looked up a bunch of fruit and what they all mean. All of them start with an ancient God, then they end up turning into something kinda cute, and then it goes back into symbolizing Christ in some way.

Oh, Lord. Grape, Grape's as we just saw was Bacchus. Then they end up turning into like something kind of cute and then it goes back into symbolizing Christ in some way. So Lord Grape grapes as we just saw his Bacchus then he became known for The wine making process then of course he it became known for Jesus the apple At the end because it was started with Aphrodite then it was about harvest season then it was about the Garden of Eden Yeah, so they all kind of have the same thing. But I wanted to test you on at least just one fruit. Might you know what lemons mean? Oh, lemons, true love, romance, soulmates. Kisses on the eyes, butterfly kisses.

Yes, butterfly kisses, aw. Okay, let me think for real. Lemons maybe represent, uh, uh, cleansing your space from bad energy. I don't know. Apparently it literally means debauchery. Oh, yes! Okay, I can get on board with that. Debauchery, whoa.

Which sounds exactly right. And I didn't know this, but can get on board with that. Deportory, whoa. Which sounds exactly right. And I didn't know this, but plums are my favorite fruit. I love plums. Apparently they mean the arrival of spring and the protection from evil. Ooh, that's kinda what I thought lemons would be. But I guess it's plums.

It's actually the evil that the, you have to put a plum with the lemon and then it breaks even. Lemon is the evil, got it, okay. Do you have a favorite fruit? It might be on this list and I can tell you what it means. I really like oranges. Well, I remember I just told you I ate 11 oranges

and had terrible asthma. So it's pretty obvious, but I love oranges. Those are probably my favorite. Oranges apparently mean abundance, prosperity, and exclusivity. Oh, ooh la la. Which is interesting, because I would have put exclusivity with pineapp ooh la la. Which is interesting, because I would have put exclusivity with pineapples

because they're known for wealth and status. Yeah, pineapple I felt like was what I was gonna ask about next. What's your favorite fruit? I feel like I should know this about you. You like apples. Well, plums. Oh, plums, okay, okay.

And then, I like plums. I like a nectarine. I like a stone fruit. They seem to be my faves. And I also really like a kiwi, but damn it, I do not like cutting nectarine. I like a stone fruit. They seem to be my faves. And I also really like a kiwi, but damn it, I do not like cutting them up. Yeah, kiwis, have you seen people who eat them whole with the fuzz?

You mean have I ever thrown up in my mouth? Yeah. That's so gross. I mean, I know you're supposed to scrub all the fur off, but I'm like, every time I do that, I'm like, I don't feel like I got it all off. Not even a little bit, no. I also, I'm a big berry eater, but I hate raspberries.

Really? Hate. That's my favorite berry. Do not put one on my plate, I won't eat it. Wow, I thought I knew everything about your food taste, but I learned something new. The straws, the bloobs, the blackberries. Oh my God.

Jesus Christ. Oh my God. You can't, how many times I tell you, just stop abbreviating every word. Someday it's gonna bite you in the ass. That was the day, wow. Okay. You're such a doofus.

Okay, but the Razz? Hate. Yeah, I can't believe that. I feel like that's the tastiest one. Yeah, I can't believe that. I feel like that's the tastiest one. Yeah, I like most berries. And I'm really getting into my cobbler era, I think. I could see myself. Oh, that feels very cottage core. I know, but I think it's because we're moving

into a cottage, so eventually I'm gonna have to make a pie. You're gonna have little oven mitts and put them on the windowsill. Oh my gosh This is already an un I just feel the energy on this episode is Out of control and my ears are so fucking itchy that I'm about to scream and jump out the window How do you do it like put cream in there like I did I put cortis cortis cortisone, right? Hydrocortisone? Yeah. I don't know. It's just like the steroidal cream. Put it in my ears. That helped. But I ran out. So I feel like I need to keep buying more. But I also want to make sure that that's okay. Because one time I put lemon juice in

my ear and things went really bad. Yeah, we heard about that one. Again, debauchery. It was symbolic the whole time. Yeah. I should have put plum juice in my ear, right? That'll be next time. I'll try that. Okay, well, anyway, apparently the main one that is carved into all of this is grapes. Okay, okay, okay. I feel like that feels very like, fanciful. Like you're trying to be, like, you know how we joked about like how our mom, our mom's generation, it was all like under the Tuscan sun style for their homes, like the new homes built back then. I feel like grapes were everywhere. Like when I moved into this house, the people who had renovated it had put like murals of grapes everywhere.

And I was like, what are you doing? Yeah. You know, my mom used to have a bunch of, I mean, I feel like every mom did had those jars of like Fermented fruits. Oh my god, they never used that were just like never used. Yeah, they were like pretty but like for what? Yeah, yeah, I feel like she had a bunch of Ceramic grapes, but oh yeah fruits and bottles. I don't know girl. What were you thinking? Like what were what was everyone thinking? I was thinking it were they thinking? It was apparently a trend. So I'm not surprised that she like ran with the trend,

but like who started that? Yeah, it wasn't her. It wasn't just her. It was definitely every- Mom, I don't blame you. I do judge you, but I don't blame you. I do judge you. Please get that correct, but I don't blame you.

Yeah. It feels like one person, like the first person with a blog that everyone was paying attention to went to Italy and then it just spiraled. Maybe it was like Eat, Pray, Love, like sent everybody into a spiral. I don't know. I don't know. So anyway, the whole place gets totally redone.

A bunch of fruit is carved into this place. And the first big whoopsie daisy moment that is attached to this building is in 1897. Ogden, as you know, is a lawless land. Christine just eats up those lawless lands. You know, I love it. And it only got worse later, by the way, when an underground tunnel was put into the area. And you know, anywhere we've ever covered with an underground tunnel had a lot of lemons, if you know what I'm saying. It's all lemony. It's deb lemony.

But anyway before that even happens it's still lawless land 1897 and by this time there's already a checkered set of activities going on around here. One thing that is very big in this area is sex work and there was one woman there who was in the biz and her name was Glenda Carter, but she had, I guess, a stage name called Mamie Evans. Ooh. And one of her Johns, literally named John,

fell in love with her. But here's the thing, she was so popular that she was literally told by the police in town to leave just because she was causing too many issues with the men in town. They're like, we can't stop it. You're the only one who has the power. Wow. That's amazing, Mamie.

They weren't even trying to arrest her for sex work. They were just like, you are causing too much of a stir. Everyone is stumbling. You've got to get out of here. Yeah, your ankle is showing. Please get out. It's like, Mamie, your ankle is showing, please get out. It's like, maybe your ankles are the talk of the town. The talk of the town.

And this guy, John, who was one of her clients, was like, you can't leave. You have to stay with me. I'm in love with you. She was not feeling him the way that he was feeling her. So she's at the train station about to leave. Like, I'm loving this like cordial negotiation she had with the police.

Which is like, okay, I'll leave. Yeah, why? I mean, I guess they could probably threaten like, or we'll arrest you. Right. I'm sure she was like, if these ankles can do this in Ogden, imagine what they can do in Mesa, Arizona or something.

Let's go to San Francisco. Mesa, Arizona, yeah. So she's at the train station about to leave town. He straight up walks up and bang shoots her. Oh my God, what? I thought there would at least be a tussle or something. Nope, just violent men being rejected. History repeats itself.

Fucking lunatic, Jesus Christ. So he just goes up, shoots her, then shoots himself. And later in a note that was found in his pocket, it was clear that all this was intentional from the start, that he was... God, what a sicko. That he had succeeded in his plans. Just like can't handle being rejected.

Yeah, yep. And the next uh-oh situation was in 1913, we're at the train station again, there's this woman named Minnie, and she is not a mouse. She is- Thank God you did say she's a woman named Minnie, but thank you for clarifying again. I hear Minnie, I hear mouse, I just needed to shadow the illusion for anybody else who was playing that in their head. Understood. There's a woman named Minnie, she is married to this guy Charles. Charles dumps her ass. And then she ends up getting with this guy named George.

And George and her get pregnant with a little girl. The little girl's name is Frances. Aw. So she's hanging out with George. They have Frances. 10 years later, Minnie goes, you know what? I want my trashy ex-boyfriend back. I don't want to be with you, George.

I'm leaving you. I'm going to be with you, George. I'm leaving you, I'm gonna be with Charles. Uh-oh. However, I guess finds Charles or gets back in touch with him, and they agree that if she's gonna be with him, she cannot be tied down to anyone, including her daughter, Frances.

No, I was like, that can't include the daughter. So Charles meets Minnie, they board the train, they check their luggage at the station and- She just left the girl? Well, so the employee looks at the luggage and realizes there's a really bad smell. Oh no, oh my God, what? And then he sees hair sticking out of the suitcase.

He calls the police and let's just say the local papers headline the next day was nude body of 10 year old girl found in trunk at Union Depot, mother charged with crime. Oh my God, what is wrong with these people? They were both arrested and Minnie was later sent to a psychiatric facility, I think for the rest of time.

Probably needed it. Needed some help. And then on top of that, only a few years later in 1923, the hotel part of the train station, because remember they're connected, an unattended iron was left on a pair of pants for too long. I was like, the fire, there's been no fire yet. Where's the fire? Big old fire.

So I guess the building was not really fucked up from the fire, but it was damaged pretty darn bad. But they were trying to save money because they were like, we just built a whole other train station. Can we just go back to the mud flat, please? It's like this wouldn't have happened at the mud flat. Wait, so did anybody die there or no?

In the fire? Not during the fire, no. But structurally the building was a little wrecked. And only parts of it, so I guess they were like, well to save money, let's just kind of slap a bandaid on these sections and keep the train station going. But during the repairs, they were like, okay, the cashier's office is damaged. We're going to move the cashier's office temporarily to

another space. And the cashier that was working it, his name was Frank. So they're like, Frank, you're working, I don't know, in the broom closet now. Sorry, Frank. Ha ha, sucks for you. And while they were doing repairs, Frank is now in this new space. And as he's working one day, the construction workers above him watch a gust of wind, so they say. Couldn't have been them. But, you know, maybe it really was a gust of wind. They see a gust of wind knock over one of the roof supports that they were putting down.

And the support bumps into one of those big ass fruit shaped sandstone carvings. Shut up. One of the 250 pound stones gets knocked loose and plop falls right onto Frank's head. In the closet downstairs through the floor? In his little Harry Potter closet, yeah. That's so fucking awful. Do we know what fruit it was?

That feels very symbolic. Probably was a lemon, girl. I don't know if it was lemon girl. It's probably a fucking lemon. Let's be real. The irony of it being a plum to protect you from evil. So after Frank's death, the quick repairs were not enough because the town was like, okay, railroad station, you have to fucking build a better facility. Like you can't just keep killing everyone. Yeah. Yeah. And so they were like, okay, fine I guess we have to do a whole new goddamn depot on this foundation. So that's what we're gonna do

So with the new construction on the original foundation the railway also built the tunnel system, which They had this tunnel system under the tracks that way people could access all the trains from inside on bad days Now they really care about inclement weather. Thank god Yeah um inside on bad days. Now they really care about inclement weather, thank God. Yeah. And also it was to help with deliveries and things like that. But eventually the tunnel apparently was filled in. And in 2008 it was rediscovered when they found old foundations of the building.

That's just wild to me that people just never wrote anything down and were like, anyway, let's just fill this in and no one will ever know. Well, so here's something I really like. I didn't find pictures online. I also absolutely did not look. Maybe it's the very first fucking picture on Google. But apparently when they found this tunnel,

they ended up glassing off some of it so you can look into the tunnel now. Now that I like. That I thought was a fun little thing. So now they've got this brand new train station. They're like, oh, hopefully all the bad stuff is behind us. Well, then in 1944, on New Year's Eve, there was the Bagley train wreck,

which it's apparently the worst train crash to ever happen in Utah. And it was not technically in Ogden. It was the town next door. It was heading into Union Station. Okay. So that day there was a freight train that was experiencing a hotbox on board. So a hotbox is when trains have a metal box that holds some of the equipment in it and the box is supposed to be soaked like there's

supposed to be a bunch of rags in this box that are soaked in oil to prevent any friction from all the metal pieces bumping into each other. Oh, okay. Which feels antiquated. It feels like a Christine workaround, but okay. Yeah, speaking of like trying to like make this all new and improved, let's just throw a couple of oil soaked rags

on that big hot box. Yeah, nothing could go wrong. Yeah, on a big hot box, yes. But apparently that was how they did it, just to keep everything super loose and couldn't prevent friction at all. Well, I guess someone didn't change out the oil soaked rags and the rags were dry. Oh, shit.

And friction was actually happening in this metal box full of shit that was jostling around. The box got so hot, in which case you have hot box, that this part of the train became extremely hot and eventually causes the train to derail. Well, so luckily this is not the actual part of the train wreck that happens. They caught this early enough

where they had to slow down the train. They were like, shit's about to go crazy. Which they accidentally predicted correctly anyway, because they pulled over so that way there wouldn't be a problem. Right. But then a train behind them did not get the signal fast enough

that the train ahead of them had stopped. Oh shit. And at full speed, kapowee. Oh shit. So in the process of trying to prevent an accident, they inadvertently caused a different type of accident. Oh, that's terrible. And so there were, I guess, two trains behind them.

One of them heard the signal or found out somehow. I don't know, they didn't have wheels and suitcases. I don't know how you, like, would they Bluetooth fucking figure out that the train was stopped. But the, so that one pulled a, pulled aside. The other train behind it though, they think because of either fog or maybe the conductor had a heart attack or

something or was distracted, but for some reason didn't catch the message that the train had stopped. The conductor either had a heart attack or was distracted. It's like, wouldn't they have no idea if he had a heart attack, I'd be pretty distracted too. Just saying. Well, so the local paper says this about the accident. The force of the impact sent a sleeping car smashing through the dining car

and farther ahead one coach into the coach ahead of it. Cars of the Mail Express section piled up on the track, some sliding down the embankment into water. Oh my God. And this train accident caused 50 fatalities around 50 fatalities and around 80 injured. Luckily, a lot of the people who were supposed who were injured and should have died ended up being saved because conveniently on the train, either the train that crashed and they were survivors or the train that pulled aside, right? Was full of like medical stuff. Oh So they were able to save what could have been a hundred thirty fatalities that it was only fifty. Oh wow

Okay, so they were right right place. Well, I'm wrong place wrong time, but also right place right time Yeah, it was the right time to be in the wrong place. Yes, there you go. So, and because there were so many deaths and so many injured, I mean, it was over 100 people, almost 150 people, there was a nearby theater that they ended up like breaking into and opening up and creating a morgue out of it for the day,

just to hold all the bodies as they were pulling people off the train. Wait a minute, this sounds familiar. Is this a Ghost Adventures episode? I feel like I've seen this on a ghost show where they did like a theater or maybe I'm conflating it with some females. Zach is not appearing in this episode.

So Ghost Adventures, Ogden, cause there's an episode where he goes to Ogden. Also maybe he had a moment where he visited the theater. I sort of feel like that happened or some some ghost show I think. No you're totally right. Zach does go to Ogden and I could have covered that in this but that episode had so many little chunks he went to that it didn't, like he didn't go to one location and it made a full story.

Oh, I see, I see. So that was probably what I was thinking, yeah. Yeah, so you probably saw him go to this theater. It was called the Browning Theater. Okay. But, so yeah, so many people were dying or needed a place to go if they just opened this place up and turned it into a morgue for the day.

Damn. Also around this time, a lot, just to add to like why there's so many haunts going through this train station is this was also the train station a lot of World War II wounded soldiers used to get to hospitals. And later on in time, Vietnam War soldiers who their bodies were being brought through this station

when they were being brought back to their families. Ooh, I just got chills. I always feel like areas with heavy former train passage, I just feel like it's bound to, I don't know if that's just me, but it feels like it's bound to have some activity because you're bringing so many people in and out. So many lives. Yeah. Yeah. The Vietnam War soldiers who went through here, apparently when their bodies were being brought through the station, it was reported at different times that many, many coffins were just stacked on top of each other on the platforms because they were trying to

just get them all onto trains. Oh my God, imagine how it's dark. Terrible. Imagine just like having to go to work and you just see just stacks of coffins. I know, it's just your life, yeah. It was around this time that Utah wanted to up the taxes on the train station and the depot closed officially. So in the 1970s, it was put on the National Register

of Historic Places, Amtrak ended up taking over the train station, but later it shut down altogether and it is now a set of multiple museums. Today it is the Utah State Railroad Museum, which you would go nuts for. I want to. It's the John Browning Firearms Museum and the Browning Kimbell Classic Car Museum. And the space also has art galleries, gift shops and hosts, conventions and events. And that's the history of it.

But for the ghosts, there's just like a lot of creepy stuff going on. There's like, I actually found some really good like specific stories, which was nice. But the Browning Arms Museum is full of firearms and apparently all of those seem to be haunted because people will hear tapping in the room, like on the glass of the displays.

People will see apparitions of men in military uniforms as if like they're still... A haunted firearm is like probably the worst item to be haunted. I know. Don't load that ever. Well, hello, Sarah Winchester. Yeah, true. Like that girl was...

True. Thought that every firearm had an attachment to it. And so, yeah, they saw a bunch of military people in uniform walking around in that room, especially Civil War uniforms. There's one guy in a Civil War uniform who has this long handlebar mustache. Apparently, he's very kind. I don't know what that means.

I don't either. I was like, how do you even determine that in however briefly you would see a ghost but whatever I know I'm like does he wave to you does he leave you alone because that seems pretty fun That's pretty kind. Yeah, if he just like doesn't look at you In the museums and event spaces objects move throughout all the rooms things go missing the classic kind of you know things turn on And off by themselves people hear footsteps and several voices talking throughout the halls, but like you think of like a group of people are coming through and then you look in totally empty or by yourself.

People feel someone patting their backs and shoulders and rubbing their arms in the ballroom. Oh no. One ghost loves to touch men. Oh. And another one loves to touch women. Oh, okay. What if it's the same one? Oh, it could be.

Just a thought. Apparently, one of them, there's like a feminine one who seems to touch men a lot. They hear women's voices in their ears. They feel stroking, but then women say that they feel something grabbing their butt.

So. Oh my God. I don't know if they're the same. Probably not, but what do I know? Near the restrooms, a woman is heard talking to you. And when you try to like find her, cause she's so soft spoken, you like try to find her, you can never find her.

They also hear loud laughing in the bathroom. There's an, which like so embarrassing with your pants down, you're laughing. Oh, that's the last kind of sound you want to hear. Yeah, I'm like, oh my God, I want to get out of here. There's another woman who has heard screaming and crying, and she's also seen running near an old platform in a blue dress.

So can you imagine what her name is here? Could this be Mamie? No, it could be the lady in blue. The lady in blue, I'm sorry. I thought you were having me guess the person, but yes, okay, blue dress. So it might be the lady in blue. The lady in blue, I'm sorry. I thought you were having me guess the person, but yes, okay, blue dress. So it might be Mamie, but there's another alleged story that there was this, can you guess, jilted lover,

because there's always one. And they're always in a blue or white or red dress. Always in a solid color dress. Yes. And she's apparently this jilted lover who had a fight with her boyfriend on the platform and either she got broken up with and she ran away at a like shame or embarrassment, doesn't know where she's going, fucking runs into an oncoming train. There's other versions

of this where like he threw the engagement ring and then she went after it and had to like jump into the, under the platform and then a train hitzer. No matter what, it's tragic and the train hits her. That's how it goes. But now people see this lady in blue all over the damn place. They always hear her screaming and crying. Another woman, lady in white is seen roaming the halls in a white dress. And whenever she's around, people also see strange lights and mists floating through the building. People have seen mists, like, just

hap- as if it's humanoid walking down the stairs. The lights turn on in the station all by themselves, windows open all by themselves. People smell a really strange floral perfume, and people see intense shadow figures. Like... Not out of the corner of your eye, but standing right in front of you, man-shaped shadow figures that disappear around the corner. No.

In the lobby, people have heard very loud conversations when the space is empty. People have gotten EVPs of children, a man saying hello, a woman saying help, and snickering. Eww. This one always gets me. This actually happened in my own apartment complex one time, but the elevator will ding by itself

and the doors will open as if someone is using the elevator, but you're the only person in the building. This one's like the staff are closing up for the night and all of a sudden they hear the elevator going on and off. The elevator's like moving. Ew, that's so gross. That's like out of a horror movie. After that happened in this apartment building

after one of our ghost hunts and I was like- After one of our ghost hunts? Yeah, and it felt like something was like letting me know it was following me home. It's like, I don't know about our ghost hunts. Yeah, and it felt like something was like letting me know it was following me home. It's like, but don't worry, I was polite. I took the elevator. Okay, thanks for letting me know. But as soon as I saw the elevator open by itself,

I went, nope. Goodbye. Goodbye. Love and light, get out of here. Yeah. Frank, the guy who was in the cashier's office and got the stone hit on the head. He's thought to still be working there,

which I always feel so bad for the ghosts who are still working. Especially dying on the job too. It's not even like he got a break before that. He just died there and stayed. He died on the job because he dies for the job. Oh, tragic. He likes to move this one chair when it's left unattended.

Apparently, if you leave it in the middle of the room. I don't know which one it is. Either he likes to put it in the middle of the room or he hates when you put it in the middle of the room and he'll drag it back to the side. And nobody can ever figure out which one it is. So he just gets pissed off. He's like, I told you.

There's a ghost of a woman that has now been named Sarah and she is said to have died in a car accident on the way to Union Station. There's a ghost of a woman that has now been named Sarah, and she is said to have died in a car accident on the way to Union Station. Oh, interesting. And I guess this was for an event being held at Union Station. So she is said to now be felt

and seen dancing in the ballroom. She just wanted to get to her party. Yeah, I know. She's like, now I'm gonna dance the night away. Good for her. So people see someone dancing in the ballroom. Also, people have said that they feel, so I guess the theater must be attached to the train station,

this Browning Theater, because it sounds like people are able to go in and out of this train station and just walk right into the theater. And access it. Which would make sense why they would have pulled the bodies and pulled them right to this theater. Right, right, right. But people also see someone dancing on the stage

in the theater when they walk in, and then when they blink, the dancer's gone. I'll be honest, like, I never really thought about it before, to be honest with you, but something about a ghost dancing is like probably one of the least, like, what were the least comfy things to see a ghost doing? If it's walking, you can just be like, oh, it's just walking.

If it's just standing there, creepy, of course, but something about dancing by themselves and then they disappear, there's something that just really gives me the goose cam about that. There's something really, I don't know if it's an uncanny situation, uncanny valley thing,

but it feels too whimsical to be stuck here. Yes, it's like off, like it's somehow off. Like, why are you dancing? It's like, are you having fun while trapped? Like, it feels like an oxymoron in some way. And then they're like by themselves when presumably they would have been dancing with like a whole bunch of other people,

which is also kind of unsettling. There's just, ooh, it gives me goose cam, I don't know. Yeah, it would freak me out somehow less if I saw like 20 ghost-in-one-room dancing together. Yes, I totally agree. But I think because even when alive, dancing alone looks kind of off. True, if you see someone like in a dark room

by themselves dancing, you'd be like, oh, I'm gonna leave you to it. Yeah, that's a good point, Em. Whether they're alive or not, maybe that's part of it. Yeah, that's freaky. Especially with no music, that's the other thing. I presume there's no music playing, which also would be like, okay, what are you doing?

Yeah, because I also think residualy, it still looks lonely, but you're having fun. And I don't know how to feel. I think that's what freaks me out, is I already am scared, and on top of that, I can't justify this. It's unsettling. Yeah. So also in the theater, apparently more unsettling

to me than the dancing, is people hear someone just fucking sprinting through this thing. Sprinting through an empty theater. Also no good. No good. I don't know if at you or away from you is better, but they hear just like someone bursting through the theater. Just the alarm of that and then not

seeing where it's coming from. Oh my God. People also feel waves of static electricity hit them. They see shadows starting around the corners. And in the basement, they also think Frank is responsible for this. They say someone has felt things in the basement, they've seen things moving.

One time they literally saw a clipboard swinging wildly from a string, because you know sometimes people will hang the clipboard on a string. It was swinging around like fucking crazy. Ew, no. And when they said, Frank, stop it, not only did it stop immediately, in dead air,

it dropped to the floor because the string was never holding it. Like pass. Also, like, imagine if it lets go and just goes fucking flying into someone's face. I feel like that could have gone so bad. Well this is I think the last story. Yeah, this is the last story I have. But there was a handyman working in the theater section or just in, I think it was in the theater section or just in,

I think it was in the theater section of this building. His name was Jared and he's locking up for the night and he leaves, he's driving home, but on the way home, he gets a call from security being like, hey, we just checked the theater section of this building and the alarms are going off and someone is moving around in the lobby. Like you didn't lock up properly,

someone's in there, you gotta go back. Which I love the security couldn't just fucking do it for you. Yeah, they're like, it's your job, go back in there. It's kind of like when Alison was like, hey, I know I'm awake and have access to the car keys, but can you wake your ass up and go to the house? And I was like, aren't you already able to do that? Anyway, I'm imagining Jared felt the same way

of like your security, I'm gone. You saw it before I did, but okay. I've clocked out and you're there. Can you handle it? Yeah. Alison. So Jared goes back. He's like, okay, he's bullshit security.

Okay, I'll do it. I'll do it. He opens the door. The alarms are not going off. He's like, okay, I thought the alarms were going off. I thought there was someone in here. The alarms are not going off. He's like, okay, I thought the alarms were going off. I thought there was someone in here. The alarms are totally not off. He looks around, nobody's in this theater.

So he locks it again, he makes sure the alarm is set, and he leaves. On his way home again, security calls him, and they're like, dude, did you not come here? Like, what's going on? Because the alarms are freaking the fuck out, and someone is walking around in there. He comes back a third time, and's like, I, there better be fucking

something because I, I don't want to come back here a fourth time. I have to go home. I'm so sleepy. I want to eat my sandwich. Yeah. That's, uh, that's verbatim what he said verbatim. I'm so sleepy. I want to eat my sandwich. sandwich. So he goes back a third time, and he gets there. There's fucking nothing going on. The alarms are not going off. He doesn't see any sign of anyone in there. But as he's about to leave, one of the doors to the auditorium slams behind him.

He's super freaked out. He actually brought his friend with him this time. I think one story said it was his dad. I think he was picking up his dad from work. Daddy, I'm scared. Come with me. Papa, help me. Papa, I just want to eat my sandwich.

Please take me back. Papa, I'm sleepy. I'm sleepy. So now they're both there and now they hear this door slam. Oh my God, it's like a horror movie. They both go into the theater to like follow whoever was in there. Yeah. And they hear this scurrying like this fast running through the theater.

No! Their first thought is it must be someone trying to escape them because it sounds like someone got busted and they're trying to flee. So they're chasing after this thing. They can hear the footsteps in front of them. And they decide, I'm going to go this way, you go that way, we're going to trap them. We're going to corner them.

They end up running into each other because nobody was ever there. That's Scoop Do level. Yeah. And then as they were like, okay, that was weird. There's no way that he could have gotten away from us. I don't know what that was. That had to be a ghost.

We're leaving. They lock up and when they drive home, they get a call from security again. I would block their number. I'm so over them. Which is what Jared did. He literally said, don't call me again. Thank you.

This is bullshit. This is bullshit. If you would like to have an experience like this yourself, I think they're still holding them, but the Ogden Union Station hosts ghost tours every October. I mean, Em, I need to go so bad. A haunted train station is all Christine could ever want. Would you go with me?

Yes. OK, good. And that is the Ogden Union Station. That was delightful. I feel like you're just giving me birthday gift after birthday gift with these stories. That's the plan. until I see you again So nice. So nice

Well, thank you. And that was really one of my favorites, I think Bias, but it was extra creepy. I got a lot of goose cam during that I was gonna say what's what's the what's the next? Theme cuz I got your cowboys. I got your trains. Oh Egypt. I have to cover Egypt Sorry I got your cowboys, I got your trains. Oh, Egypt, I have to cover all of Egypt now, okay. Gotta go to ancient Egypt, sorry. Anyway, now I'm ready for you to tell me a story. I have my El Foggy, I have it in my vase. Well, I call it a cup, but it's a flower pot.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that thing. It's literally the size of my head. Does it have a spout? It does, because it's like a pitcher, I think. Oh, it's a pitcher, I see. But then gulp, gulp, gulp, it pitches right in my mouth. Do you drink out of the pitcher part?

Yeah. Oh, cute. Right in your mouth. Wow, I mean, I believe you. Easy breezy. But thank you for proving it. You're welcome. I suggest to all my thirsty little rats

to get yourself a pitcher because it really does, the experience is 10 out of 10. Okay, I mean, listen, you heard it here first, folks. Pitch it right into your mouth. So here's a story I have for you today. Now I am a little on edge, not on edge, that's like way too dramatic of a phrase, but like I'm a little bit confused because I swore,

like I would have bet money that I've covered this before And I know this has happened to us a few times but I'm telling you I Looked and looked and looked and then I had Eva look I was like Eva am I missing something because she was like yeah It does really sound like saying you've covered we cannot find it and I I distinctly remember when we first started the podcast I'm talking 2017 when I lived in Los Feliz. I remember getting really interested in this case and watching a ton of like, episode like true crime episodes about it on on whatever ABC 2020, something like that. And I can't

believe I never covered it. I must have just like put it aside and then never done it. But if I have, I promise folks, I really tried to check. I didn't find it. But what the hell are you talking about today? This is the murder of Travis Alexander by Jodie Arias. Jodie Arias. And I don't know, I've never heard of it before. So if you haven't heard of it, then definitely,

I feel better because it's a pretty notable case. Jodie Arias, I guess, is how you say her name. Well, keep in mind, I also, like, I don't have the memory of every story all the way back to 2017, so maybe you have covered this, and it's just gonna be brand new for me all over again. It'll be just new for us. The name doesn't feel like something I've heard before.

Okay, because if you had said, oh yeah, that does sound familiar, I'd be really concerned, because then I'd be like, why? Okay, so let's get into it. Travis Alexander was born July 28th, 1977 in Riverside, California. He was one of seven children and had a pretty difficult upbringing because his mom and dad both struggled with substance use disorders, including meth. And one of Travis's sisters described their parents as poverty stricken.

He just lived in a very high stress, low nurturing environment. And when he was pretty young, their parents divorced and he was in a very unstable living condition where he experienced homelessness several times. Some of them even lived in a tent with their mother for a period of time. That's how unstable things were. And after this, their grandmother Norma stepped in and said, I'll help out. She moved Travis and his siblings into her home. And Norma herself was a devout Mormon, and she introduced them to the church and she raised them in the Mormon faith. So that is how we get into this whole... That's how I got into the whole Mormon Mesa connection,

but we'll get there. Gotcha, gotcha. So Travis grew up to be a very, very kind and charismatic and empathetic person despite his kind of tumultuous upbringing and he had a way of connecting with people that left a pretty strong impression on everyone he met. People described him as very inspiring and motivational. He'd be the kind of person who'd maybe give a TED talk.

He can kind of convince you of anything really. He's got the charm. He's got the schmooze. He's a schmoozer and also a good writer. And so because of this, he met a friend through the church named Chris Hughes who was impressed by these kind of talents and said, I think you should work in sales. And what do we think when we hear Mormon and sales?

Ding dong. Is he the at the door person? No, but that's a good guess. He's not a missionary. Hello, my name is Elder Price. That's my favorite song. No, he worked for an MLM because many of the LDS founded MLMs have gotten really big and there's kind of this connection there. I don't totally know the history of it, but that's kind of like the stereotypical thing. A lot of times you'll see, you know, Lu LaRoe,

all those are LDS based. So anyway, his friend Chris Hughes was like, I've got just the job for you. And this job was at a place called Prepaid Legal Incorporated. So probably like the least interesting sounding MLM I've ever heard of That's how they get you Yeah, they're like no. No, this is legit. You know prepaid don't wait. This is this is boring. You don't even want it

You don't even want it Incorporated exactly like why would you put that in there? Yeah, it's no Lula Rowe. It's no. I mean I could list them off, but anyway Basically, it was Travis's job to sell insurance for legal representation. And if a customer needed a lawyer and couldn't afford one, then that insurance he was selling would pay for the legal representation. I don't know the ins and outs of this business.

I know MLMs in general are very shady. So I'm not gonna put an opinion on this because I really have no clue. And this was also a while ago, but just to give you an idea of what he was doing as work. So now we're in 2006 and Travis is 29 years old. He's living in Mesa, Arizona, just outside of Phoenix, where I learned there's a relatively large Mormon population.

Not as I didn't know that, not apparently Brigham Young status or whatever the fuck with Ogden, but you know, close enough. And that September, he traveled to Las Vegas for a work conference where he met Jodi Arias. Now Jodi grew up in Northern California and she, unlike Travis, had had a very nurturing, large, loving family and she described her own childhood as ideal.

And she and Travis hit it off right away. Travis invited her to dinner the night they met. They stayed up until 4 a.m. just talking, you know that like classic falling in love the first night. I miss it. I know. I miss it but Allison goes to bed at 7 p.m. And then wakes you up at 4 a.m.

I like really, okay. For a romantic chat about the garage Romantic separation so I can go to the garage So the next morning he called up his friends and said I just met the woman I'm going to marry and they were like whoa He fell in love overnight Wow, the only issue seemed to be distance because when the conference ended, Jodie had to go home to Palm Desert, California, which was a five hour drive from Mesa, Arizona. But Travis was so into Jodie that he was not discouraged.

He bought a book, which I think I own, called A Thousand Places to See Before You Die. And he- Oh, I've seen that book. Yeah, I feel like we've seen it like on, I don't know, displays. It was on all of our Tuscan bookshelves from our moms. Yeah, next to the dusty fake grapes.

Yeah. So, A Thousand Places to See Before You Die. So, he and Jodie decided as almost like a bucket list to start trying to visit as many in the area as they could. So, in the Southwest, they started going to all these places together, very romantic. And Travis was very adamant about his faith, about his Mormon faith. And so he discussed this a lot with Jodi. And he even sent, which I've been waiting to tell you, he even sent Mormon missionaries to her door, knock knock, ding dong, to- My name is Elder Price.

My name is Elder Price. My name is Elder Price. And Travis sent me here to speak with her about converting to the LDS faith. And she said, absolutely. And she did. So listen, they were dating about six weeks and she said, I want to do that. So whatever, good for you. So she did. And Travis even baptized her himself. That is how important this was to both of them. Okay, they are into it, good.

Yep, so his friends said that Travis took his faith very seriously. He had adhered to celibacy before marriage, and he planned to marry a Mormon woman with the same beliefs. And at first, obviously, Jodie and Travis seemed like a great match. Jodie was adventurous, sweet as far as looks were concerned. She was exactly his type. She was very pretty. They made each other laugh. They loved to travel. They talked nonstop. It

seemed like everything they did was just nonstop fun and laughter. And a friend asked Travis, is she really this nice? And he said, yes, she really is. That's just who she is as a person. That's lovely. I know. So in an email to a friend, Travis wrote, I went from intrigued by her to interested in her to caring about her deeply to realizing how lucky I would be to have her as part of my life forever.

She is amazing. It is not hard to see that whoever scores Jodie, whether it be me or someone else, is gonna win the wife lotto. Oh. I know, very romantic. However, as their relationship progressed, Travis's friends started to become uncomfortable

about Jodie and some of her behaviors. Oh. Oh. They described her behavior as, quote, disturbing and, quote, possessive. What? One night, Travis and Jodie were in a hot tub with friends. And these friends later said Jodie would repeatedly

climb on top of Travis and straddle him and start making out with him and kissing his neck in front of everyone. And he kept pushing her off and being like, hey, don't. That's weird. We're hanging out with my friends. Please stop. And she would not let it go. she would not stop she started following Travis

everywhere he went to the extreme he would go to the bathroom and she would stand outside the door and wait for him to be done if he tried to talk to somebody privately she would follow along to eavesdrop she was often caught eavesdropping around corners when he was just chatting with his friends. She refused to let him speak to other women. She read all of his texts and emails and she would forward them to herself to read later. Her possessiveness became so extreme that his friends actually worried about his safety because she had become more of a stalker than a romantic partner. And they tried to convince Travis something was wrong, but Travis kept defending Jodie,

saying like, no, she just really loves me. She's just really caring and sweet, and we just really care about each other. But he's really not, like, I mean, obviously he's aware because people are bringing it up to that, but he's not feeling the same way at all. Exactly, it's almost like he does eventually. But right now he's under her spell.

Exactly. He's got those rose colored glasses that have not been taken off yet. Shattered. Not been shattered into a million pieces yet. One of Travis's friends named Sky Hughes told ABC News, I said, Travis, I'm afraid we're going to find you chopped up in her freezer from very early on. She was completely obsessed with him.

And like, I can sort of see, I can sort of see why somebody would be like, no, no, she's just, you know, cause if they're behaving toward you, like they really love you. It's like that classic toxic abusive thing where it's like, oh, well I'm special. Like they really think I'm special, but you don't see the danger quite yet

You know Yeah, well so far like because you're so agreeable to all of it. You haven't seen like a shift So you're right in the the twitchy. I went all of a sudden you reject it. Yeah, 100% 100% and so that's kind of where he was at this point and When I mentioned earlier like how she was caught eavesdropping, I have one example for you. So on one occasion, some of Travis's friends were discussing Jodie's behavior with him.

And one of them realized Jodie was like standing right by the door listening and mouthed it to Travis, like she's right outside or like Jodie's out the door or something like that. And he was like, yeah, right, come on, you're being so paranoid and ridiculous. He turns to prove his friend wrong, opens the door and Jodie is standing there,

like listening to their conversation. Like in a sitcom, like has a glass on the door. Like literally with her ear on the fucking door. And according to the friend who saw this, said she was standing there looking quote, and evil which is oh shit so frightening um but meanwhile Jodie felt like totally warranted in her possessiveness which like i feel like anybody in this position would say they were warranted like otherwise why would they be doing it but whatever right right like you have you must think that you're like the victim yeah you have

to believe that it's worth doing, otherwise why are you doing it? And so according to her, Travis was cheating on her and texting multiple women during their relationship. And I mean, this is just like, we can just see this from a mile away, like classic abusive scenario. The couple broke up only five months

into their kind of hot and heavy and really up and down relationship, but Jodie was not quite ready to let go. She moved the 270 miles to Mesa, Arizona to be close to him, even though they had broken up. Huge red flag in my book. And according to Jodie, she and Travis agreed to just be friends, but when she moved closer, he started inviting her over and they began secretly sleeping with each other. So they were still having sex. She knew Travis's garage code and so she would sometimes just let herself in and they would

hook up or she would just come stop by. And sometimes Travis would be annoyed or angry that she just like burst into his house. Other times he'd be like, it's fine, just stay over. But at the same time, he was dating a new woman named Lisa. Now- God, poor Lisa, she's about to be in the middle of it.

Yeah, so I wonder how Jodie felt. Well, I don't wonder, because she felt fucking pissed off. Yeah, the thing I question least in my life is how Jodie felt. Well, I don't wonder, because she felt fucking pissed off. Yeah. The thing I question least in my life is how Jodie felt. I know. It's like the only thing we can probably all agree on in this world. Yeah.

The only sure answer I have in the universe. So Jodie would sometimes go to Lisa's house, knock on all her doors and windows, try to frighten her in the night. And then- You know why this probably sounds so familiar is because the last story, or one of the last stories you covered was like-

Oh yeah, that's true too. Was the like the stalker X or- Yeah, there was one recently. There was one recently. Yeah, that then was also made into like a big Netflix. Yeah, that could very well be. Someone slash Travis's tires twice, and even though we don't have proof who did it,

all his friends were pretty damn convinced that Jodie was the culprit. She eventually said she became uncomfortable in this relationship because it was never going to progress to anything more serious, so she moved back to California to be close to family. But when Travis told his version of the story, it was that he had broken up with Jodie, not the other way around.

Either way, roughly eight months after moving to Mesa, Jodie moved the five hours back to California. So Travis's friends were very relieved at this point. They just had bad, bad feelings about Jodie from the beginning. And Travis honestly seemed to feel the same way, like how you were saying, it's almost like he finally realized that his friends were probably onto something with Jodie. He actually told his friends,

Jodie finally left, I'm getting my life back. So I think he finally realized how much he had sort of taken over his life. Yeah, you can't tell until it's over. And then you're like, oh, wow, I was really enmeshed. It's almost like until you're too late, until it's too late for, or not too late, that's not the right word, but like until things

have been damaged enough that you're like, oh, I can see the trail. How much your individuality was damaged or something. Or your relationships with friends or like other people you're dating. It's almost like he realized suddenly, oh, well, um, my tires have been slashed. My girlfriend is getting harassed all night. Like, yeah, things are not as good as I thought they were with

Jodie. Um, however, they were both in this kind of, I mean, we've seen this before too and probably experienced it in this like toxic, like he still was kind of mesmerized by her. There was still a draw. She was very sexual and I think, and kind of used that. And I think he was very drawn to that as well. And they had a very strong physical connection. I mean, as someone who has been with quote toxic exes, not even quote full blown toxic exes.

Yeah, let's just umbrella toxic and everyone can kind of guess what we mean by that. Yeah, just like wildly awful exes. I can sadly admit that I still went back to them a few times before it was over, because there is still the, I don't know if it's the lust or the lore or what are just the missing, the good memories. So I actually once heard a really interesting take I don't know if it's the lust or the lore or what are just like the missing the good memories or

So I actually once heard a really interesting take on that by a psychiatrist who said a lot of times when people are seeking that kind of honeymoon phase, like that like staying up and like that romance and if you're new, you wonder like when you're in a stable relationship and that kind of goes away, like why And people are drawn back to that passion. A lot of- The limerence, it's called limerence. Limerence, a lot of times that limerence is because there's instability in a relationship.

And so it's almost like you're playing that game of either cat and mouse, or you're not completely secure in the relationship. And so then the highs are higher and the lows are lower. And so a lot of times it just indicates like, even if you've been together for years, if you're still in that honeymoon phase and you still have a lot of that like passion worked up,

a lot of times it's because you're in a kind of not so healthy place. Like you're not stable necessarily. I mean, this is just one psychiatrist take, but I thought that was very interesting. Cause I'm like, oh, that makes sense why when you're in a long-term relationship and you feel happy, maybe those honeymoon,

like butterfly feelings don't last forever because a lot of times that's just when you're playing that chase at the beginning, you know? Yeah, like here you keep trying to, like the way it was described to me by all my therapists over the years was, is that you're, especially by the way it was described to me by all my therapists over the years is that you're especially by the way, this is not like a cause or no one read into it, but it's just like an additive problem for me is that with my ADHD and I'm constantly chasing dopamine

rushes, it's extra not great on top of my like own childhood trauma and my own like ways of handling relationships. The way it's been described to me is that I'm constantly looking for the chase. And I'm constantly looking for the rush. And so a lot of times in my tumultuous breakups, it was almost like foreplay to get back together. So it was like just the, it was almost like fun,

like in some sick way to like have the good feeling back. It's because it's like just the well, that's it was almost like fun like in some sick way Have the good feeling back. It's because it's like a heightened feeling It's like more intense because it's like, oh, it's exactly more was at stake more was at risk You almost lost the person you got them back you won so to speak and there's just like so much built in there I just read Come as you are by I just read Come As You Are by, what's her name? Oh, Alison read that. It's so, so good. Like I have had so many people recently recommended to me,

I finally read it, Emily Nagoski. And she did such a good job describing that, like why people claim that post-fight or breakup sex is the best or like post-fight, it's because you are like playing that game, you know, you're not in that like stable, like healthy trusting place necessarily. A lot of times it's like tumultuous and that makes the feeling so much more heightened.

You know, I was, now that we're just like diving into our own personal things, but one of my biggest issues in like having a healthy relationship, which Allison and I have talked about, I talk about in therapy, blah, blah, blah, but like I'm very open with the fact that like I had a really chaotic childhood and I, there was a lot of ups and downs. And so my normal is high highs and low lows, but my normal, it has never been like, just like a safe constant stream of steadiness.

And the fact that I ended up with the most steady person in some ways is very good because she's able to like, just tolerate my bullshit, but it really freaks me out because there are a lot, our biggest issue most of the time is that I'm bored in the relationship and not bored in a way where it's an insult to Alison. I'm just not used to there not being drama. Yeah. So when I when I feel like there's not drama, I almost feel like there's something wrong. And so one of the biggest lessons I've had

to learn in my like actual healthy relationship is that like it's okay It's for there to not be a big feeling happening all the time Yes, I feel like that's so important and I had to learn that exact same lesson and look who I'm with I think you and I probably have that in common Yeah, but yeah, you can find I mean listen have a toddler they had all sorts of drama. Okay, maybe that's why people are like I'm good. I actually you know're good I'm thinking about it yeah yeah I mean you can try dog first dogs a good step that's drama too there think about geo big drama I will give you just a quick update that we're not anytime soon but

we're starting construction which means we're working on a fence and once we have a fence the next big thing is a fence. You need to understand how loudly I will scream when that happens. There will be, that will, you're right. That will be my high highs and my low lows. Oh, you're gonna have high highs, you're buying a house. I mean, there's a lot of high highs and low lows in life.

You don't need a partner, a relationship to do that for you. I can do that for you, quite frankly, if you'd like. I'm just gonna go to Allison and be like, you know what, things have been too calm. Let's really rock our shit. Let's get it blow shit up, you know We've got a good thing going let's ruin it. Yeah. Yeah, please let me feel so I just felt this collective like Like relatableness from all of like probably 90% of our listeners I feel like that is a very relatable thing like self-sabotage, you know, because you feel kind of stuck or bored or whatever.

Up until Alison, that's what I was known for. I loved self-sabotage. Yeah, I mean, I feel like that's a very common millennial trait, unfortunately. Yeah, and so now in my own relationships, I have to be like, oh, no, it's... Because I always thought of it as boredom in a bad way, but I always... But it wasn't boredom.

It was like, oh, no, calm. Yeah,'t boredom, it was like, oh no, calm. Yeah, oh, oh right, yes, calm, yeah. And calm just felt so off to me. Unnatural, yeah. It feels unnatural, it feels like something must be wrong because we're calm and we're good. That's such a very poignant way of looking at it. Thank you for sharing.

Well, I don't know, someone will judge me, but someone will feel like I helped them. I hope so, I feel like you helped me. I thought that was actually pretty enlightening so thank you. Anyway I'm gonna have to journal about that later. Okay so unfortunately I had therapy yesterday. Oh I need to talk to you now. Okay so anyway as I'm saying he finally felt like he was getting his life back like things were on track. But like I said, he was struggling to move on too. He would keep texting Jodie in secret and they would have these

kind of like flirtatious texts back and forth. Jodie said they made plans to travel together again in May. But later when people looked back at their texts, they actually realized that Jodie and Travis had this intense argument. It's unclear how the fight started, but it got so heated that Travis called Jodie a sociopath, and he told her, you don't know what horror you have caused me. And Jodie replied it wasn't her intention to harm him. But regardless, Travis was like, you know what? No, I'm done. I don't want to see you anymore.

So instead, she made new plans. Doesn't this sound like just such a gem of a person to start dating one of Travis's colleagues who also worked at Prepaid Legal Incorporated. Whoopsies, that's gonna be crazy. How convenient. Drama, yeah. Speaking of drama, so some people saw similarities

between Travis and this colleague. He was also a charismatic, successful up and coming salesperson described as another rising star just like Travis. And that's a quote. So I mean, he really is kind of like his little doppelganger and she's just jumped ship to this guy. Yeah. And she's like, I'm going to ruin him too.

Yeah. And she's like, now I'm going to show Travis I can find somebody else, you know? So the two of them had been texting for a while and so Jodie decided to hit the road to see him on June 2nd. Meanwhile, Travis was supposed to go to Cancun, Mexico on a work retreat and he actually had invited a woman

he had just started seeing named Mimi. And so the two of them were gonna go to Cancun together. Hey, how do you think Jodie feels about that one? Hey, how about I don't even worry about guessing? Let's not even. Yeah, that's not even worth our time. Yeah, I have a feeling she feels a little icky about it. She feels not great.

So his friends arrived in Cancun first and they tried to make plans ahead of time saying like, oh, Travis, when you get down here like I mean, I'm only guessing at this but let's go to senior frogs. That's just what I'm assuming happens in the text chain I can't please I didn't realize the pitcher had landed the pitcher I had taken a big old gulp out of my flower pot and that was um That was yes senior frogs is Maybe second guess everybody second guess em's advice of drinking out of a flower pot later

Seems like pitcher whatever it's called, but that really it did me dirty just now Oh, I'm so sorry which like by, by the way, the only other place you drink out of Pitchers is probably Cigar Fries. I was gonna say, guaranteed a Margarita in one of those bad boys. Like, I could take that down in one swig, for sure, for sure. I almost lost my life on camera

because I almost drowned in London Fog. But that was worth it. What a way to go. Anyway, I'm so sorry, but I can only imagine that's what they were texting. I have no idea. But they were texting and trying to make plans for when he and Mimi came down and he wasn't responding, which was very unlike him. He was always very in touch with his friends.

He was always active in the group chat. And they just knew, you know how sometimes you just know, they just knew something was very wrong. And so when, so remember this is a work conference. So they, there was a meeting that Travis was supposed to lead and it was over a conference call. And when Travis didn't show up for this conference call that he was leading, they were like, something has happened because he has never like been a no show, especially to something work-wise

that he's in charge of, like this is just not him. So they're getting really freaked out, but now they're in Mexico, right? So there's only a few people back in town who can go check on him. And so they ask these friends to go look. So back in Arizona, Mimi, this new girl he's seeing and two friends drive to Travis's house to check on him.

And they know the garage door code as well, so they let themselves in and strangely enough, they run into his roommate, Zach Billings. And they're like, oh, hey, Zach, we're looking for Travis. And the date that this occurred on, by the way, was June 9th, and nobody had heard from him for five days. So they're like, we haven't heard from him in five days. And he's like, oh, that's weird. No, Travis is in Cancun. And they were like, no, he's supposed to be or he's supposed to be going, but we have not heard from him. So there's like this mix up where the roommate thinks, oh, he's just not here because he's in Cancun, which is why he wasn't worried. Right? Right. Right. So they all four go to Travis's room together.

Oh God. I just imagine being this roommate and you've just been living there for five days with no fucking idea. They find a massive puddle of blood on the floor of Travis's room and they follow the blood along the hallway to the bathroom. And that is where they find Travis in the shower.

Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah, imagining that there was, was that, there was another story. Maybe this is also why it feels familiar to you. Cause I feel like last year or two years ago, there was this big story that came out of like a roommate finding out like a week later that their roommate was dead in the other room.

And like just didn't know. Are you thinking of the, oh my God. Give me one moment. Are you thinking you have Amanda Knox? No. Oh. I don't know.

I honestly don't know anymore. No. There was, I think maybe I found it on Reddit or something. I mean. I'm sure it's not the first anymore. No. I think maybe I found it on Reddit or something. I mean. I'm sure it's not the first time. Yeah. I feel like I recently heard of a story like this where the roommate found out days later or a week

later or something. That's got to just be so tragic. What a nightmare. Yeah, the therapy you got to go through after that is crazy. I mean, at least I can't speak for everyone else, but I feel like I would be constantly second guessing myself from then on. Like, do I even know what's going on around me?

Like, I would be so unsure. I would be, the way that I would immediately become hyper aware of everything out of fear that I'd miss something again is crazy. And like not trust my own instincts anymore. I'd be like, how did I not know that? You know? Yeah. There's probably a lot of guilt wrapped up in that.

So they follow this blood. They find Travis in the shower. He's dead and he is just, there's blood everywhere. And so they call 911 and I listened to Red Handed. They did an episode on this incidentally in spring of 2020. And at the beginning of the episode, they were like, I listened to this like in the last couple of days, but in the beginning of the episode, they're like, well, with all this in the last couple of days, but in the beginning of the episode,

they're like, well, with all this crazy stuff happening in the world, and I'm like, oh. Oh no, girl. Yeah, wait, girl, wait. It's gonna be worse. Yeah. And I know ours are even dumber. I'm sure this'll end next week when we go to Seattle.

I had the story you're telling, you heard someone talking about the beginning of COVID and now you're telling it while you're dealing with a symptom of long COVID. Oh yeah, right. I'm like, yeah, I'm just falling apart over here. Like if only you knew. We're all falling apart four years later.

Wow, four years later. Sorry, that's mind boggling. Okay. It's terrifying. Yeah, just untenable. Okay. So they call 911 Yeah. Just untenable. Okay. So they call 911. And I mentioned, sorry,

I mentioned the red handed episode for a reason, not just COVID, because on the red handed episode, they played part of the 911 call that the friends make to dispatch. And like, it's just, I know that I've talked about this before, but there's something so surreal and like disturbing.

Like I have a really hard time listening to 911 calls because there's just something really... And I think my favorite murder talked about this ages ago, but there's just something about you knowing in the future what they're kind of seeing and experiencing and maybe how much worse it really is than what they think and then hearing them kind of piecing it together. And well, it's also to hear like, I guess not in this case, but in other cases, I've overheard dispatch calls where someone broke into the house or something. And to hear those, even if they end up fine,

to hear true human fear. A terror. And there's nothing you can do about it. That's also talked about on natural. Right. And maybe it's partially also like knowing that like, oh, you're just witnessing someone experiencing long lasting trauma. Like you're just, you're witnessing someone witnessing like something that will shape them for

the rest of their lives. Yeah. There's something like so, uh, so scary about that to me, but they played this clip. And so you can hear the friends kind of saying like, we don't know what happened, but there's blood everywhere. And the dispatch says, like, oh, you know, was he suicidal? And they say, no. They say, did he have any breakups recently?

They say, yeah, but I don't think he would have killed himself over that. And dispatch says, okay, well, was there anyone that, you know, who might've wanted to hurt him? And she literally, like, without missing a beat goes, yeah, her name's Jodi. Oh shit. And so the friends were already like,

we know who we think did this, but like they're still so shell shocked. And they ask, you know, how many people are in the house? They say four. And they say, we need you to leave the house immediately. Like just back out of the house, you know, and they sent, they sent

investigators to the scene and when they arrived, investigators could immediately tell that there had been a major struggle at the scene. Travis had fought desperately for his life and the attack was so brutal, that they believed it was very personal and that Travis must have known his murderer. An autopsy revealed that Travis suffered at least 27 stab wounds. He was also shot in the head. Oh my God.

And then the murderer cut his throat with a knife and the laceration was so deep, he was almost decapitated. Oh my God. But the cause of death was a final stab wound directly into the center of his chest, which caught his heart. Holy shit. Yes. Like just beyond.

That's so f-ing brutal. Yeah. I mean, do they think that because he was still kind of seeing her on the side, do you think that he was trying to hook up with her one last time before he left for a week to go to Cancun? And that's when she just kind of said, you're not going anywhere with her? That's probably you're probably pretty spot on. Yeah. And we don't know, like the details of, of well, we'll get into it. The theories. But yes, I think you're definitely spot on.

So just hours after Travis's friends discovered this terrible scene, Mesa police get a call from someone named Jody Arias and she says, Hi, I'm just checking in about like this guy Travis that I know. A friend told me that there's police outside of his house. I just want to like call and check if everything's okay with him. And returning to the scene of the crime. And... Yeah, returning to the scene of the crime. Right, exactly. Literally so guilty. It's so fucking dumb. So his friends are like, yeah, Jodie's his stalker.

You need to take her into custody. So Jodie agreed to be fingerprinted. She traveled to Arizona, first of all, the fucking audacity, traveled to Arizona for his memorial service. And then while she was there agreed to be fingerprinted, but she insisted that when Travis was killed, she was on a trip to Utah. So she wasn't even around.

But Ryan, the man Jody was supposed to meet in Utah told investigators that, oh no, we were gonna meet June 3rd and she never showed. So they're like, okay, and what did you do? He said, I tried to call her multiple times. They all went to voicemail. And finally she arrived a full day late on June 4th. She, yeah, where have you been?

She told investigators and Ryan at the time that her phone had died and she got lost, which if it were me is a valid excuse. In this case, not so much. Then forensic investigators found something interesting in the washing machine. I laugh because it's just absurd. They find a digital camera in the washing machine. What?

It had gone through a full wash cycle. So in theory, it shouldn't even work. Jodi was trying to fucking break this camera. I assume she's trying to have no evidence. Yeah. So but she leaves the camera there in the washing machine and dummy and the camera does not work but the memory card is fine so they pull the memory card out and they find a bunch of photos and guess what the date the timestamp is June 4th, which is the day of the murder.

Bloop, and the day of my birthday, yay. Yay, and the day of my dermatology appointment. Anyway, not only that, but there were photos of, okay, so this is where it gets wild. Here are some of the examples of what was on this memory card. There are sexy photos. So there are photos of him examples of what was on this memory card. There are sexy photos. So there are photos of him, of her naked.

There's photos of him in bed. There's photos of him naked in the shower. Oh, like right before. Two minutes later, there is a blurry photo of his dead body in the shower on this memory card. So wait, the entire murder happened in less than two minutes. Yeah. And then with her bloody fingers, probably grab the camera again to take a

picture. They aren't sure if the photo was taken intentionally or was just in the scuffle, you know, took a photo because a lot of the photos are very blurry. There's one where you can even see part of her leg as if she's dragging his body and they think like she had dropped the camera and it had taken a photo because a lot of the photos are very blurry. There's one where you can even see part of her leg as if she's dragging his body. And they think like she had dropped the camera and it had taken a photo. They're not really clear. You know?

It's that, honestly, I, not that I was really thinking about like the timeline, but I would think killing someone that brutally had to be longer than two minutes. Two minutes. Like, I can only imagine that she had him incapacitated so quickly in like a flurry and then just, I mean, it's horrible.

Oh, I almost wonder, he was shot too, right? Yes, yes. I kind of wonder if like she was holding the gun in one hand and the camera in another and then went smile. I know that's fucked up, but there's no way, I'm trying to think like, how do you fit that much activity in two minutes?

Was him already dead with his stab wounds with the blood like that was a that was my god Yeah, so all of that kind of Attack happened within a matter of minutes That's insane. That's I mean, I don't know why that's blowing my mind more the speed at which it happened, but it's just it. Oh My god, so I don't know how to feel with that that timeline too, it's like, she can't even argue, oh no, that timestamp on the camera is wrong. Right. Like it must've been from days before,

because then why two minutes later is he dead on the same camera? You know, you can't even argue that. And so they think probably the photos were taken accidentally, some of them, because they were kind of, and I mean, you know, I recommend you really think before you do this, but you can see the photos online,

but just please be cautious if that's, you know, just use your best judgment on that folks. But in any case, you couldn't see his face in the photo, but you could see the wounds, the blood. And they were also obviously dated June 4th, just right after this shower pic of him just naked in the shower. So Jodie's... I mean, this is when I'm like,

you fucking dumb narcissist. Her hair, a long hair, her blood, and a giant palm print in blood of hers were all found at the scene. Yeah, big dummy. Also, like, why would you then go happily get your fingers printed? Literally.

You're like, pink? Yeah. And then just leave the camera there. I mean, I just can't get over this. She's so stupid. You know, I will say before we move on, back to like the, how short it happened, that at least tells us that there was probably no pain.

Hopefully not prolonged. I mean, he did fight back. There were defensive wounds that she sustained, but like not many. And it seems like the attack was more just her anger, like getting out rather than like a fight between them. Like you said, like it seems like it was over pretty quick like he had passed pretty quickly but yeah that's I mean that's all you can hope for at that point is like just like let there be no pain yeah that it happened quickly I know anyway sorry I just went no no yeah it's it's I was gonna think about it if I didn't say it's a good point you know at least it wasn't a prolonged torture or something um but yes, just still so, so outrageous that her entire fucking

handprint was basically left at the scene. Now investigators also explained, so this is a fun fact for everyone, it's common to find the attacker's blood at the scene of a stabbing because it's very easy to cut yourself with a knife while you're stabbing someone, especially if your hand slips, you know, when you cut your hand, which fun fact she did, although she claimed she had cut it on a glass that she broke at a bar called Margaritaville that she claimed existed in the town she lived in, which it did not, and she made it all up.

So she's not even good at making up stories. She should have tried Senior Frogs. Yeah, honestly, that would have been more believable. So of course all this evidence is immediately enough to arrest Jodie and five weeks after Travis was found dead detectives traveled to her town to arrest her and police told interviewers that Jodie did not seem surprised when she was picked up. However when she was taken in to custody she asked if she could get her purse because she wanted to put on some makeup before her mugshot.

What is her deal? She's a lunatic. Obviously so much, but what the hell is her deal? She's just a complete narcissist. She literally in the mugshot photos is smiling pretty for the camera and has makeup on that she just put on for the photo. It's bizarro. She's got some nerve. I mean, the way they described it too in Red Handed

was like, it's like she's creating the narrative for her future biopic. Like she's like, she knows this is gonna be on TV and she's like almost showcasing. That's such a great point. Like she was like, if they're gonna make a documentary, I might as well look good. I might as well like show my best angles, yeah.

So she told investigators, you know what, I lied. I actually was there the day Travis died. First of all, they're like, yeah, we know, but okay, go on. Yeah. And she said, and guess what? I witnessed the murder, but it wasn't me. So that's it.

So you're admitting you were exactly in the room when he died. And didn't tell anybody. Didn't tell anybody. And none of that, okay. None of that, sure. But she watched it happen. According to Jodie, she called Travis on her way to Utah

to meet this guy, Ryan. And he said, hey, why don't you just make a stop in Arizona to see me? So she said, fine, I will. And she arrived in the middle of the night, they had sex. And then in the morning, she was playfully taking photos of Travis in the shower, when suddenly two masked intruders, a man and a woman broke into the house. They ambushed Travis and Jodie. There was a loud noise and Travis fell to his hands and knees on the bathroom floor.

Jodie said the man left the room and she tried to charge the woman who had a knife. When asked by an interviewer whether the woman had stabbed Travis, Jodie said, I could only assume yes, but I didn't see her stabbing him. The man came back into the room with a gun and he held a gun to her forehead. They argued about whether or not to kill Jodie as well. And the man pulled the trigger, but nothing happened. So seizing the moment, Jodie ran past them both, picked up her purse, got in her car and drove away.

And... And in that car, she thought, Oh no, I left my camera. In the washing machine. But don't worry, the bad guys totally grabbed the camera on their way out to get pictures of him dead. Yeah, to drag him out of the... Exactly. Exactly. And so they were like, oh, so all this happened.

You escaped with your life and just watched your boyfriend or this guy you're sleeping with get shot or stabbed, and you didn't call anyone? And then you later acted surprised five days after it to call the police and do a wellness check? That's the other thing. When she called the police and said, I heard there's police, did something happen?

It's like, okay, but now you can't pretend like you were there and you know all about it. It's just so weird. Like her story doesn't even remotely line up. Not that slick. No, not slick at all. So she said she was in so much shock and denial that she just met up with Ryan on June 4th

and just pretended none of it was real, which I believe that. Like I believe she probably pretended none of it was real, but not because it happened to her, but because she did it. Yeah, and part of me doesn't think it's because she was so dissociating from the situation. I think she just, it didn't even faze her. She just was like, okay, that's done.

And also I'll add too, she claimed Travis was alive when she left. So it's like, so he was alive and you didn't call for an ambulance? You just left him there? Like the story doesn't track at all. She just went home to California until she heard the news about police cars.

So she said in her shock that it was difficult to remember She just went home to California until she heard the news about police cars. So she said in her shock that it was difficult to remember that she was even at Travis's house or how she got there. But the evidence, of course, is speaking loudly against her. Incidentally, this is a little odd, a week before the murder, a 25 caliber handgun disappeared from her grandparents house after someone broke in. How nutty. Isn't that just the weirdest coincidence?

Of course, was the same caliber weapon used to shoot Travis. When Jodie arrived in Utah, Ryan, so remember she arrived a day late, he had no idea where she was, well, when she arrived, she had bandages all around her hands. And suspicious. She claimed she had broken a glass at Margaritaville, a place that did not exist,

where she said it did. And when detectives asked about healed scratches on her hands, she told them they were from her cat. So ultimately, Jodie spent four years in prison, awaiting trial while investigators built their case against her. I like how you did. I was going to say you just skipped right into anyway. She spent time in jail. Anyway, then she went to prison.

She said, my cat did it. And then she went straight to prison and they said, nice try, but not really. You're going to jail, write me out. This is perfect. Thank you so much. Yeah, you've cat to be kidding me. So I... You've cat to be kidding me.

You tell a terrible lie. You're not good at this. I mean, does she, I do wonder in those moments in jail when someone was sitting next to her in the cell, did she really think she was getting away with it? She had to have lost a little, here's the thing, because I'm constantly terrified that I'm gonna end up in jail all the time.

And it's mainly because I think I'm going to be, like, framed for a crime. I don't know why, it's a terrifying, it's just a... I think that's a pretty common fear. It's a fear I live with all the time, though, like, I'll be in the wrong place, wrong time, my DNA happens to be on something, and now I'm guilty. I mean, it's like,

it's like everyone's worst fear, like, being sent to prison without cause and getting wrapped up in something you didn't do, yeah. Yeah, yeah, okay, okay, thank you for validating. Oh, yes, I think that's very normal. I mean, Eva and I have talked about this. I feel like a Looney Tune with how often I'm scared about it. Oh no, yeah, we'll have a talk about it, next Geo's Trio.

But I feel like I, if I were to commit a crime, because that's a fun game I like to play with myself too, I'm like, how could I get away with it? Fun fact, no. No. But I feel like I would lose sleep I'd be so fucking paranoid if I didn't hit every like did I cover all my tracks did I cover all my tracks and There's so many loose ends. There's no way I would have slept easy

I'm a narcissistic psychopath does not feel those kind of fears or feelings because they are convinced that they Know better than everyone and are better than everyone. So at least you know you're not a sociopath. I just, I don't know how you can, especially for narcissists who just so pride themselves in being better than everybody else, I don't understand how you could think, like wouldn't you think I'm the best at covering up a crime?

Or do you just think I don't have to be the best everyone else is just too stupid to figure out my very loose crime? I think that's part of it. I think that's part of it is like, there's not that thought. It's just like, whatever, I'll get out of it. Insane.

Yeah. Okay. She was really surprised. Can we talk about this? This has to be like the 10th time we've done this on these podcast. I know, I know. But it's shocking every time because it's like, it is. How does your mind work that way?

It's just bizarre to me. I'll never understand. Like I have a panic, I like get, I'm in tears when I have to call somebody on that telephone. Okay. Just say hello, not even anything bad. To say, hi, I just want to check on my prescription. So I can't imagine how you live without any sort of

fucking flutter in your heart about getting caught for a fucking murder Yeah, she just like whatever spent four years waiting for the trial to begin I Okay, I'll get to that. Well, yeah, I'll get to this So the trial began in January 2013 and in a CBS 48 hours interview, which aired that same month Jodie told the interviewer I've been sitting a lot in my cell Okay So this maybe maybe this is okay to your questions about what she's sitting in a cell thinking. Sure. I've been sitting a lot in my cell thinking, what a waste. You know, I did have

my whole future ahead of me. I had everything to lose and nothing to gain if I did kill Travis. It's like, yeah, then maybe you shouldn't have done it. Yeah, ding, ding, ding. So at the trial, Yeah, then maybe you shouldn't have done it. Yeah, ding ding ding. So at the trial Jodie okay, so let me first before I even get to this point add something that I hadn't put in the notes but really wanted to mention is that Jodie at first if if we're and by the way, I am calling her a narcissistic sociopath because she has been labeled these things by medical professionals and I also want to add that to elaborate on that, she requested that she defend herself in trial. OK.

Like in court. She wanted to defend herself in a first degree murder case. Good luck. No legal background. Just decided she was going to defend herself. And the first thing she did was- What did she say? Did she say, nah uh? She said, uh uh, I didn't do it.

Your honor, you weren't even there. Your honor, um, hearsay. I'm trying to think of like one legal term. Habeas corpus, anybody? Mariska Hargitari? Mariska Hargitari? Habeas corpus? So she claimed that she could defend herself at trial because she said, by the way, also,

she claimed in an interview, no jury will ever convict me. Okay. Nice. Bold. Bet. And so they did allow her briefly to try and defend herself, or represent herself, I'm sorry. And the first thing she brought to the table, she put into evidence these letters Travis had written her

that were immediately noted as fakes. They were fake letters. So basically the judge was like, your defense use back on. You can use it. Did the letters say, if I were to ever die in a heinous act, I know it wouldn't be you.

Love you, XOXO. This crazy stalker is coming after me with a heinous act, I know it wouldn't be you. Love you, XOXO. I know, I know. This crazy stalker is coming after me with a knife. Yeah, I don't know. But, and it's not you. But I don't know. I don't know what they said, but I do know that they were faked.

And then in Red Handed, they were like, hey, do you know what musical she got that from? Apparently in Chicago, the musical, the lawyers like, oh, I just always fake like journal entries and I've never lost a case or something like that. And so they were like convinced that she had watched Chicago and been like, I can, I can pull this off and like fake these letters from Travis that like were very obviously fake.

So she only represented herself for a very brief time. And then they were like, you're no, you need a fucking lawyer. Okay, so she got her lawyer back. But when she did get on the stand, which was like pretty quickly, what a surprise that she insisted on getting on the stand pretty quickly. She suddenly had a totally different version of events.

Another shocker. She claimed that she did kill Travis. However, it was because he was violently abusive and she had been the victim for many years. And this was just her, which I'm it just like, it is like such an extra kick because in the gut because it's like, there are so many people in abusive relationships and like, this is a very real thing that can happen in an abusive relationship. And that's not what this is a very real thing that can happen in an abusive relationship and that's not what this is. You're taking away validity from people

who are really going through something like this, which is just makes me so angry. Yeah, I think we're lucky though that he was surrounded by so many people who could be like, you're literally, that's so far from true. No, you're right because nobody believed her. There are people though, but you're totally right, there are people in abusive relationships where one of the main ingredients No, you're right, because nobody believed her. There are people though, but you're totally right, there are people in abusive relationships

where one of the main ingredients is that you get isolated from everybody, so nobody would even know your side anymore, and you really could just totally have your character ripped apart and no one would defend you, but at least in his case, everyone was like, he was literally so cool, what are you talking about? And she genuinely tried to tear down his reputation,

and she did in some ways really really tarnished His reputation. I mean I'll get to that But basically her claim now was that Travis was violently abusive He hit her in places that the injuries wouldn't wouldn't show, you know that she to hide them from his friends She also testified that she had once caught Travis masturbating to child sexual abuse material. Oh my God. And Travis's family in the courtroom was just like got punched by this because it's not true. And it's just like, of all things to say, one of his brothers even said her mission was basically to murder my brother again for a second time by destroying his reputation.

And he's in the church, the LDS church, and he has a very good reputation. And so, now he can't defend himself, and she's just making him out to be this monster. You know, they had- And also, if she's talking about, oh, he hit me in areas where no one would see, I feel like she's telling on herself, and she was already doing that to him.

I mean, who knows? I feel like it could have been. She was clearly abusive in other ways, you know? I don't know if there was ever violence between them, aside from the obvious, you know, but one woman who dated Travis told ABC News that their arguments were rare and if they did argue Travis was never one to lose his temper and was much more of like, a let's talk things out kind of guy. And of course, that doesn't like explain away everything.

I mean, you know, an abuser doesn't need to have like a violent history to be abusing their current partner. But there was so much doubt on this story because like everything she had told had been a lie already that it was almost like nobody really believed her. But she took on this new persona as a survivor and a victim. Of course, well, because it was the last thing

that she hadn't been identified as yet. No, you're totally right. What else is there? It was like the final act. It was like, and apparently she had watched Chicago, so I can see why or she would get this fucking idea. She's a Broadway lover. She's a victim She's all of it. She's all of it

Everything but a killer. Oh wait. She did admit to doing it. She did that too. No, you're totally right She said that on June 4th 2008 she was taking photos in the shower with Travis's new camera when she accidentally dropped it and Travis became enraged and attacked her so viciously that she believed he would kill her. So according to her defense team, she had no choice but to fight him to the death to save her own life. And that her defense team, do you mean herself? Herself? No, she had been like, assigned a lawyer. They were like, please stop your this,

you're making a mockery of the judicial system with these fake-ass letters So Jodie had no choice but to fight Travis to the death. This is their claim in May 2013 Five months after the trial began the court finally announced their verdict 34 year old Jodie are sorry 34 year old Jodie Arias was guilty of first-degree murder and hey, wouldn't you know it? She was shocked Like I'm sure like to her knees blown away a first degree murder and hey, wouldn't you know it, she was shocked. Like, shocked. I'm sure, like to her knees, blown away. She said in an interview,

I was really hoping the jury would see things for what they are. I didn't expect to walk away. I knew that was a possibility, a slim chance in a parallel universe somewhere, but certainly not first degree. And yeah, I'm like, you stabbed him 27 times. Like what are you, you cold blood and shot him with your grandparents gun is all premeditated. You went and got your gun.

Like, okay. Prosecution sought the death penalty, but jurors couldn't agree on that. And so the court was forced to declare a mistrial. In October of 2014, a second jury also failed to agree upon the death penalty and they didn't allow to try her for the third time. So on April 13, 2015, she was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. And she had actually originally stated in an interview that she would rather receive the death penalty because at least she'd be dead rather than in prison. But she later recanted that statement and said, nevermind, I dead rather than in prison. But she later recanted that statement and said,

nevermind, I'd rather be in prison. Okay. She was like baiting, like you won't, you won't. Literally, I mean, yes, exactly. And they're like, all right, we'll try you again. She's like, well, I didn't really mean that actually. I take it back. It was like JK girl.

I was just exaggerating. And when asked whether Jodie suffered from any mental illness, a detective on the case said, no, she's not crazy. She calculated this completely. So, you know, I don't know, crazy is such a loosey-goosey wild term that I don't think anyone can claim who is quote-unquote crazy or not, but, you know, that's just one detective's input. However, Jodie filed an appeal to overturn her conviction, claiming media coverage of the case prevented her

from getting a fair trial. That appeal was denied. And with the trial and sentencing done, Travis's family and friends were basically just left with the pieces to clean up. And one of his brothers said, he should have a beautiful wife, he should have a beautiful home, he should have a beautiful wife. He should have a beautiful home. He should have absolute happiness and he should have that beautiful

smile that was on his face all the time. And so, you know, he's remembered now as a good guy and a happy friend and brother and MLM salesperson. And oh, I meant to mention also, he had a pug named Napoleon, which I thought was just a sweetest fun fact. But that is the story of the murder of Travis Alexander. Wow. I just remember so vividly watching the documentary with the digital camera and thinking like, how shocking that there was a camera, there were pictures

from the time it happened. So I know that I watched that back in 2017. I must've just put it to the side, unless I did cover it. And everyone's like, we already heard this before. But I don't think I have. I feel like I've never heard, I don't think I've heard this before.

Yeah, I don't think I've covered it until now. So yeah, but that's a big one. So it's about time anyway. And how wild that, I mean, I guess her literal handprint was in the blood, but if she just remembered to grab the camera. Like how stupid. Or not even that, just like take out the memory card.

Just like- That too, right. And it makes me wonder like, did she purposely just put it in the wash and think, that'll work or did she forget? Was she panicked? She had to have forgotten because why would she wash it and then just still leave it?

Like why wouldn't you just take it with you? Why would you wash it at all? Why wouldn't you just take it and wash it somewhere else? Why wouldn't you just burn it? I don't know, like why wouldn't you just- It's just like anything probably is a smarter thing to do. I don't know. Anything, like take a hammer to it.

Like, I mean, literally just get rid of the memory card. You could have done nothing else. Just had to... You dropped that in the sewer? It's just wild how it's like a smoking gun that absolutely didn't have to be. Yeah. But like, I'm glad it happened. Like, I'm glad like there was a smoking gun.

Exactly. It's like, at least it was an open case, but man, she really thought highly of herself, you know? It's just so sad too, because like, to have all those red flags and then for it to just end so horribly with someone's life cut short, it's just really sad. I just looked up Justin Case because we've talked so much about how this was like an abusive relationship. If you happened, if you were someone you know is in one, the National Domestic Violence

Hotline is 800-799-7233. Thank you. Good call. And yeah, yikes. That's... Yes. And listen to your homies, because if they're saying something's up, maybe keep it in the back of your mind.

Yes, just, yeah, just take care of yourself out there. Ugh, Christine, do you, how's your eczema going? Cause I'd be all itchy right now from you. I'm telling you, I feel like I've done that thing where I've just removed my soul from my husk. So I'm up there. So-

You know, we still have our, I was just looking at a lot of our, our fan mail over the years and our gifts that we've gotten. And I recently came across our corn husks. I love our corn husks with our faces on them. Oh my God. People are so funny. Well, if you would like to hear us keep blabbering on, you can join Patreon and check out our after dark,

is that what we're calling it? So after dark. And there was a clip that made it to TikTok that I actually reposted, cause it made me laugh, but of us talking about when you discovered all the like symbols that you can do on the fucking. Oh, you mean this? Yeah.

And then I fucking tried and it was just like, nothing happened. I was just sitting there like a big fucking dork. You looked like such a loser. It was so sad. Like a ton of people commented like, oh my God, I'm finally joining Patreon for this. And I'm like, for that?

Okay, well, if that's what was gonna get you to join, I mean, come on over, we do a lot of dumber. It was that easy this whole time. I, you know, now I'm just, it just, this is what I say to all of you. Stop it. In case you're wondering, Emma's literally just like doing like a peace sign and then like balloons appear and doing it.

I keep being told the rock and roll sign does something, but I haven't seen it work yet. Anyway, how about this? Everyone join Patreon. Fireworks are so stupid. Wee, fireworks. Okay, well yeah, if you wanna hear us keep going on and on and never shutting up, then you can follow us on Patreon

and maybe we'll discover some new things like the fireworks tech in my computer. All right, and also we haven't had our birthdays yet, but I think the next episode that comes out, we can talk about. We don't have birthdays. Yeah, oh, I'm excited to hear. I mean, I'm just going to the doctor,

but I'm excited to hear what you're doing. I'm not going to the doctor yet. I mean, I can get too crazy on my birthday and end up at a doctor. So, but anyway, in case I don't see you until afterwards, happy birthday, Christy. Happy birthday, I love you. Everyone else has already seen us celebrate but for you. Happy birthday to you too. And that's why we drink.