And That's Why We Drink - E389 Intriguing Event Schedules and Lukewarm Cans Sparkling Water

Episode Date: July 21, 2024

It's episode 389 and you're hurting "It's" feelings! This week is unexpectedly Tulsa themed as Em takes us to the Gilcrease House for some ghost stories. Then Christine covers the second part of her two-part series on the case of Suzanne Sevakis. And is Christine a victim of Em's humor? ...and that's why we drink!

Christine, how are you feeling today? Shut up. Christine's having a sad day. Shut up. I brought some things that I thought won't make you happy. I'm really in a bad mood because somebody texted me something really rude and mean and I don't know what's happening and then they disappeared and now I'm scared that I did something and I just... It's like, you know, when somebody from your past just kind of like shoves their way into your life and you're like,

Whoa, where did you come from? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I do. Anyway, so I'm kind of spinning out today, but thank you for bringing me something happy. What is it? Thank you for bringing me something happy. What is it? I have, I don't know if I'm allowed to say who. I'm sure I probably can, but because I haven't checked, I'm just gonna roll with. What, the person I'm talking about?

Anonymity, no. Someone I know, someone in my family is a, can you imagine if I was like, and they're here today. I was like, this is not probably the smartest move on a true crime show Someone in my family is a furry. Do you know what a furry is? Of course, okay So this weekend as a recording was anthro con which is like a big furry convention And I was creeping on them on find my friends and I went I know where you are.

I decided that I was like, I don't know enough about this situation. For those who- I don't understand, were they at Anthrocon? They were at Anthrocon. I didn't know enough about Anthrocon to start a conversation with them, but I wanted to because we're supportive.

I looked at the event schedule because I was like, I feel like I could probably gauge something to say about them at FurryCon or Anthrocon. I could find something if I just use some context clues based on what the event schedule has to say. While this- You're like, wow, the hot dog stand has some real great relish this year, huh?

You know, Christine, I looked at this event schedule. I've never seen anything first of all more fucking intriguing The event schedule alone makes me want to become a furry but on top of that um I it did not give me any context clues. It was so Riddled with just a bunch of neurodivergent people said with love by the way, but i'm going to show you this event schedule You'll know exactly what i'm talking about every single event was clearly is anthrocon. It was in Pittsburgh, I think

But the event schedule made no sense. I'm gonna send you the schedule. So sorry just so we can all get on the same page so this is a Friend, there's a family member you said and yes, and you did not know they were a furry, or you did before? I knew they were a furry. I just didn't know how to talk to them about them being at Anthrocon. And so-

God, but they are aware that you know. It's not like a secret or something that you're gonna- Oh no, it's often discussed around dinner tables. Got it, okay, cool. So here it is, okay, Anthrocon. Oh. Oh. Ah!

So I thought this was- History of baseball mascots. Happy birthday, Godzilla. Wow, this is so fun. I'm telling you. Okay. I wrote down my favorites because there's a lot to look through. There was it was like a four day affair, I think. This is unbelievable. So I was like, I don't know where to start. I really thought this was going to help me start a conversation with them about furries. Here are some that I wrote down. Okay, I'm picking my favorite and I'm curious if yours is,

if my favorite is on your list. Okay, starting strong, we have practical stabbing, which apparently is- What? I didn't see that. Which is about apparently like needlework and making your own furry costumes. How fucking genius.

These people are funny. There is one called Goat Scream Up, where instead of a meetup, you just go meet up to scream. To scream, right, sure. Inflatable Zoo. Oh. Then there was Oni the Runaway Circus Bear Rock Opera. circus bear rock opera. There was the, there's two different events by the way for people who are like really into roller coasters.

And so there was, there was one called like ask a ride operator or so you want to be a ride operator. And then there was another one called like roller coaster enthusiasts, electromagnetic launch a Lou and I think you get launched. That's what I'm understanding. Oh, there's another one called I've made too much pasta. Love that. That one took me a minute. I was like, sorry, was that part of this or is that just a side note? Okay. There was apparently like a debate meetup, but it was like in mass. And so they called it mass debation. They had Anthrocon Dead Dog Dance,

where I guess you dance like on the floor. I don't understand. And then Ohio Meetup. And then- There's always an Ohio Meetup everywhere. And then my favorite, because I know so many people, oh, I don't know so many people who are furries, but I know generally in the fandom, a lot of like,

like parents who don't understand what's going on will like in support, bring their kid, but don't know where to go. Once they've dropped their kid off, there was a meeting literally called. So your kid dragged you to Anthrocon. No, wait, that's great. These, I think these people need to schedule every event ever. Cause this is like so over, like I didn't, I scrolled through it before you listed those.

I didn't even catch any of those on this big list because there are so many. Well, my favorite is personally 9.30 PM Eastern. Let's see. The art of making horny comics. You gotta know. There's a Zoology 101, just in case you need to know the basics. There's also a Zootopia fan meetup, I guess, because a lot of them dress up.

I'm assuming there's gotta be one Zootopia costume in the furry fan. I'm sure. Jousting, I mean, wow, rescuing senior dog. Oh, this one was canceled. Let's see. 3D printing fursuit parts got canceled. That's a bummer. That is a bummer.

That sounds really cool. I think so you want to be a riot operator is so funny and random. Like it's like, this is like a work, this is like a job convention, an employee convention. And it's everything. It's everything, a craft fair. And that's what I'm saying.

I know that this entire thing was funded, organized, directed, scheduled, starring, only neurodivergent people probably, because they said, fuck it to the corporate idea of a schedule, fuck it to a convention schedule. If you wanna know about baseball mascots, go to this place. If you wanna know about model trains, go to this place. And if you wanna-

It's like anybody can have an event. You are a ride operator, come on in, have a conference room. It was like the only requirement was like, you have to have a hyper fixation and then other people will probably also have that hyper fixation. And I thought it was just so beautiful. It's almost also like, find your, come to this event-

Find your people. No, find your, come to this event to find your, no, find your hyperfixation. I love that. Cause you know what? The second I saw that there were two roller coaster enthusiast situations, I knew I was like, there's something there. I should actually become hyperfixated on this. I was going to say, I feel like there's all these interests here that I could, uh, like press your luck, the the game show like how fun they're doing a game show I mean I would be oh my god the making of paw purdy damage which is a video game a furry video game I mean wow there really is something for everybody there was little I've never seen a convention so well stacked and interest and they're like there's no there was a whole pagan

furry hi there's a Christian furs Too so everyone has everyone has a place here. This is wild They also had one area that was just called like the drawing room and it was apparently just a room where you just like I Think it's like a sensory space to like just draw and color and that was what I heard at least but Yeah, it just seemed like they had a little space for everyone. And I just thought it was the most genius scheduling I've ever seen. They were naming things. I mean, practical stabbing. And I've had too much pasta. Are you kidding? Like practical pasta. I forgot about those. Those are so good. They've really decided like,

I don't care what, what works for else it works for me and that's all that fucking matters. I mean 508 people attended I made too much pasta and that's that is apparently the name of a band so they put up shit but 508 people attended. What was the other one M it was a practical stabbing practical stabbing. Wait, let me find that. Oh, right. It's a felting, right? You did say that. Oh my gosh.

Wow. I mean, like, inflatable zoo, I absolutely want to see what that's about. Absolutely. Like, a rock opera starring a circus bear, I want to know what that's about. Like, what are you talking about? Fucking count me in. Anyway, I saw all of that. And again, remember, I was going into this event schedule

hoping for context clues to bond. Just to relate to it. And I think my exact texts were like back and forth were like, oh wow, I actually don't, this didn't help me at all. Well, you should just ask like, what events did they go to? Cause I would love to know. Oh, you did.

So I asked about the Ohio meetup cause I was like, I have to, why? Are they from Ohio? Your person that you're talking about? No, but I was like, weirdly out of all of them, that was the most random one to me where I was like, why Ohio? And apparently- That feels like the most generic one, especially if it's in Pennsylvania because that's like

next door. Well, I was told that apparently like 60% of the convention attendees are from Ohio. Oh, yeah, that's not surprising. Well, I was told that apparently like 60% of the convention attendees are from Ohio. Oh, yeah, that's not surprising. I feel like Ohio has, I know I've told you that before too, of like, we have every, like everyone thinks Ohio is so boring, but then like all the alien shit happens here. All the weird conspiracies happen here. There's like, it's just very strange. Like even when you're in LA and you're like at a bar or something, you're like, I'm from Ohio. Like I swear three people around you will go, I'm also from Ohio. It's like a very strange phenomenon.

Um, but yeah, it looks like quite a few people attended the Ohio meetup. So apparently the only one that they did go to of my list that I just sent you, I also sent it to them and I was like, I think what? No. Wait, thank, what? No. Please stand by, we have to step away. Well, well, well, I come to you live from a much smarter background than usual.

Would you like to explain the background, Chrissy? No. Okay, I will. Just pretend I'm very educated and play six violins. We were supposed to record yesterday, and by the way, I'm still in the troll hole but my internet is working just fine now ironically and Christine's internet apparently went down down down down down and we ended up having to cancel the recording yesterday until she

can move somewhere else. Do you want to explain the tape on the wires situation? Oh my god I was going to say we have to post those photos. They're so outrageous. I was on Reddit figuring out why, like trying to figure out why I don't get enough internet. My brother was on the phone with me. We were like, what is going on? Like you pay for a thousand gigabytes and you're getting like 19. That doesn't make sense.

So I went and they said, sometimes it's not the router. Cause I called my provider and they said, we're wiring all that to you. You are receiving it, but if you're not not getting it that's something at your end. So I was like all right let me follow this wire. Oh interesting it goes through a cabinet, through a fireplace, up a chimney, and out the wall and I was like that's strange what a fun scavenger hunt. And so I went outside to find where the the wires went. Oh they had broken off years ago, but somebody decided to just wrap the loose frayed wires inside the cable together and just postal tape, use like just fucking-

Packaging tape. Packaging tape to tape it together. And that was how all the wires were. And they're just hanging off the brick wall outside in the rain. And I'm sitting there going, well, no wonder I don't get fucking internet. And I've been paying so much money for the best internet.

How did you even get internet with that? How did your house not catch on fire? I know. I get very base level internet, I guess. What you would get at just a... Wow. It was very, very low, low, low. And then depending on the day, it would be like, probably if it's fucking raining, I

suddenly don't have internet. Who knows? Remember when we used to have satellite dishes and shit, and they would be like, low, and then depending on the day, it would be like, probably if it's fucking raining, I suddenly don't have internet. Who knows? It's like, remember when we used to have like satellite dishes and shit, and it would be like, oh, the weather's acting up. We can't watch the sports game. It's like, what? What kind of world did we live in?

But so apparently- I totally forgot about that. You totally just brought that back. Yeah, like it would start getting stormy and so the TV would start getting glitchy. Which like, all you wanna do when it's storming is watch TV. And then it's like, well, great.

So now we can't even do that. Yeah. Or like when the, I mean, not just when the power would go out, but if there was like a really bad storm, you could, the only thing you couldn't do was watch TV if the whole TV went out. Oh, tragic. Well, so anyway, I decided to move into my mother's office and, uh, you know, she, I swear to God, I wish I could show you these she

has monitors let me see if I can they're like this big she has two of them she had okay actually I have insurance how big is that room for you to echo like you're in a castle echo echo okay look at this sound like a bridgerton okay here's the ring light she has for some reason I'm like what are you doing in here I want you doing that needs a ring light I for some reason. I'm like, what are you doing in here? I walk in and I'm like- What is she doing that needs a ring light? Teaching, I guess. I'm like, wow, your skin must look flawless. But look, she has, hold on.

How do I do this? Okay, she's gonna be like, I didn't give you permission. Is everyone liking this ride? Take your Dramamine. Yeah, please don't throw up. But she has two of these giant monitors. Wow. It's just like, I moved in and I was like,

why am I even recording at my house? I should just do it here. You know, that does look like a professor's background. I mean in and I was like, why am I even recording at my house? I should just do it here. You know, that does look like a professor's background. I mean, right, and it is. And so that's why, I mean, even the stuff on the walls, I'm like, oh, wow, some like an original ticket to the zeppelin, the zeppelin, the giant blimp framed in front of me, A picture of my brother.

Not you though. That's interesting. I found myself actually in the drawer. Yeah, here I am. Thanks mom. Oh, and then, oh, and it is here, which is just delightful. Pennywise. Yeah. So remember it. Yeah. Yeah. This is it. This is my mom's creepy doll that she gets really upset when I call it creepy. But like, let's take a moment to just... Just, could you actually do everyone a favor and just hide your face for the rest of the episode? And I just want to talk to it. My mom's like, you're hurting its feelings.

I'm like, can we stop with that? It's not funny anymore. But she's, she's sore. She's not joking. But yeah, this was her childhood doll. She chewed the ears off as a baby. That sounds like you got it from somewhere, didn't you? Yeah, I sure did.

And so this is like her weird attachment that she has. And it sits on her desk. So, you know, nothing is quite normal ever in this house. My mom had a fox named Foxy, of course, and the way... Foxy is busted. I'll ask my mom to send a picture of Foxy and we'll post it. You should show Foxy. Foxy does not look nearly as in good condition.

That looks like you still bought it like five or 10 years ago. That looks like it's. Yeah, it looks like it's in great condition. I don't think you got a good look at him, my friend. Let's just put it this way. I don't have to. OK, well now he's nakey. Oh, no, because I think once you see a picture of Foxy,

you're going to know. You're probably right. You're going to be very proud of. I will say he needs some surgery because he's he's definitely gone through it. But but he looks like he's just like he went through one rainstorm and now and he's fine. Yeah, he looks pretty good. Maybe I'm saying this so he won't curse me tonight. I was going to say you're seeming a little too exuberant or too enthusiastic about look,

his head is filled with straw. Isn't that wild? That's what i'm going to send you a picture of foxy everyone will know and everyone will agree by the way that that looks It looks incredibly better than because my mom used to carry keep keeping on team it i'm not so You say that you haven't seen a picture of foxy. He's fucking busted. Um You say that. You haven't seen a picture of Foxy. He's fucking busted. Foxy, she also kept under her arm her, like, for years and years and years. So his neck is barely on. And all the fur is gone.

He has one eyeball. He is not full of straw, but I think, like, packaging foam. Apparently, he had so many surgeries. Probably. He had so many surgeries where my mom's mom would just shove any garbage in there just to keep them stuffed up. Just cigarette butts. He's just, I'm sorry, he's just a sack of trash at this point.

Wow, well now you're going to get cursed by Foxy it sounds like, so be careful. I've been saying all this to Foxy's face my entire life. I've been going, whoa, I do not want to inherit Foxy. I think I accidentally revealed a little, I'm sorry, it. I wasn't trying to put you on blast, but I just- You literally just completely stripped it. I just can't deal with when my mom carries it around and talks to him and I'm like, can we not?

Can we not? She'll be drinking wine and she'll be just- No, you're not, since when? You literally came to my house and you said, get rid of, we had a whole pile of these freaking creepy old dolls and you said you wouldn't even go into the room, and now suddenly you're Team It.

My mom's gonna be so thrilled. I'm Team Not being against people still having a comfort pal from their childhood. Okay, well I'm not dissing that, to be clear. Oh my God, now you're making me look like a terrible person. Also, you're homophobic, that's crazy. Let's list the- Oh my God. Let's just list it all.

Today is not the day, Emothy. I love you, but today is not the day. Well, yeah, Christine is in a rush, so we're actually gonna keep it sweet and short, however we can. Are we? So I am just gonna go straight into the story because I know you are, we've got not a lot of time. Well, thank you for taking the time

to call me homophobic and- And transphobic. Agest and transphobic before we can start. It was important that you got those things in before we got started. I didn't even mention the ableism. Oh, okay, cool. Do you want me to or we can just skip past it?

I think it's okay. I think you've said enough. Well, here we go. Today we are covering, let's see. Oh my God, I forgot the name of the fucking building. Okay, oh, okay, I found it. Also, Christine, why do you drink besides being an awful person?

Just kidding, just kidding. Before any, before, by the way, before comments show up. You're not actually helping Fobacca. Oh, I'm waiting for them. No, I'm waiting for them. No, I'm waiting for them. I'm waiting for them. Please bring them on waiting for them. I'm waiting for them. Please bring them on.

I would like everything for this page. Now, if you're gonna bring anything, bring it to me that I turned it into a joke. Christine was just a victim of my humor. Oh, is that what it was? Why do you drink? Is it because of all those things? Because everything's falling apart

and I cannot even get, I'm on my side about creepy dolls anymore. It's like the second I'm like, yeah, you're right, dolls are creepy. I'm just like, no, you're just being really mean to your own mom. I'm like, yeah, you're right. Dolls are creepy. I was like, no, you're just being really mean to your own mom. I'm like, since when? You literally gave me so much shit for liking a lemon

and liking a teddy bear or whatever. And then you're like, getting attached to things. And now you're like, I'm not against people getting attached to things. I'm like, since when? That's literally all you were for a long time. I think I'm gonna be team it because I have a very strong feeling

you're gonna be Team Foxy. So I'm just trying to even out the score. Okay, well that's why I drink, and I just drink room temperature sparkling water because even though my mom was so gracious to let me use her whole office today, I do have to put her on blast one more time and say, they don't refrigerate their sparkling waters. So they're just lukewarm and it's not okay.

Lukewarm anything is bad, but specifically sparkling water. It's supposed to feel, the whole point of it being sparkling, it's supposed to be crisp and fresh, yeah. Yeah, it's not. Okay, well I feel bad for you. Thank you. I'm drinking an LD and I don't know why I drank, but. I'll give you a reason by the end of the day.

Yeah, we'll figure it out. Okay, so I'm covering the Gilcrease House, which Gilcrease just sounds like one of the worst last names you could get. This is in Tulsa, Oklahoma. How far away is Tulsa from you? Pfft, I don't fucking know. I don't think I've ever been to Oklahoma.

No idea. Okay, I just hear Oklahoma. Is it close to me? I have no idea. No, I don't know. I hear Oklahoma, I think Ohio. I just assume you all know each other. Wait, you think Ohio?

Oh, because of the O? Cincinnati to Tulsa Drive. That's a cool 12 hours, or sorry, 11 and a half hours. Drive. Okay, so not next door neighbors, as my brain tells me. It's not by me. Okay, anyone in Tulsa?

This is for you. This is the Gilcrease house. It was owned originally by a family called the Mackys. And then in 1909, they sold the land to the Nelson family. Now my favorite thing about the Nelson family is that the man of the house, his name was Flower. Flower Nelson? What a nice name.

I love that. He and his wife built a house on the property and they were only there for a few years. And by 1913, this oil tycoon named Thomas Gilcrease buys the property. And he buys what is at the time like it's like 80 to 90 acres of land that this house sits on. A lot of fucking land. Later he expands it to 460 acres. So in my mind he owns Tulsa.

And Ohio too. All of Ohio, yeah. Um, so, okay, so he buys it in 1913. He becomes an oil tycoon, he's a philanthropist, and he, just to give you some idea of his background, he has Native American descent, he's from the Creek Nation, which apparently is similar to,

or it's the same thing but different word for Muskogee. Why did I say it like that? Muskogee, Jesus. But apparently Muskogee and Creek are the same. That's my understanding. If I'm wrong, please come at me. I'm totally fine with that. So he lived on the reservation since he was a little kid.

But then in the 1900s, I think in 1900 exactly, the federal government dissolved the land. And so a bunch of the people who lived on the reservation were getting parts of the acreage. And he got his part of the acreage at nine years old. And interestingly, when he got this part of the acreage, it later was found out to have quite a lot of oil under it. And he ended up becoming very rich by 20 when he struck oil on his land.

This is Gilcrease, right? That we're talking about? Gilcrease, yeah. So he started on the reservation, ended up kind of getting his own piece of the acreage, and then found out that he struck oil. By 20, he was super rich. And by 32, he had his own oil company.

Damn. So he married twice. He had three kids. And 1913 comes around. he's now moving into the house that once belonged to Flower Nelson. The home is, it was originally when he moved in, it was just one floor, it had nine rooms, plus a veranda, plus a barn, plus a garage.

I mean, he had all he needed. And he ends up living there for the next 30 years. So from 1913 to 1943, Gilcrease lives in this house. Eventually he travels to Europe a lot. This guy becomes obsessed with American West art. Oh, yeah. Some people get really into that. I have been into a lot of things.

That's not one of them. That's a big industry. Well, also you have to think about his background being from that area. Like I imagine that's probably part of his upbringing too and like culturally significant, but there are big pockets, like especially in China, there are huge Americana collectors

who collect wild west Americana and that kind of thing, and even bourbon and moonshine and all that, and they go for big bucks and they will bid on it and stuff. go for big bucks and they will bid on it and stuff. Oh, well, you know, so art, maybe it's because it's this big, expensive, in my mind, it's a rich, wealthy type of collection. If you're gonna collect anything, art is the most

fancy pants thing you could collect. But I've never seen art and gone, mm, I gotta collect that. I've never, like, maybe it's just not my thing, but I'm shocked that, I don't think it's not my thing. I think I just haven't hyperfixated on it yet. I was like, ah! I think anything's possible.

That's good to say, I mean, and art doesn't mean necessarily oil paintings. It could be like traditional weavings or like, you know, sculpture, like, yeah. You know, I do keep telling Allison, now that we've got the Schultz Fourth Manor, I'm like, we do need an oil painting of us over the mantel. Yeah, of course.

At some point, maybe that'll be... You know what's so funny is people have made us oil paintings of Gio, and people have made us oil paintings of ourselves. You should just put one of us over your mantle with Allison. I'm sure she'd love that. She would love that, yeah. I could actually just put ours up, and then I'll just like print out a picture of her face

and just tape it on with like Scotch tape on your face and the body will be the same. But when I come over, can you take that off? Cause I'd like to see myself up there. Yes, obviously. Even when she goes to the grocery store, man. Thank you. Just when she's around.

But anyway, I am excited to get a, I would like to get an oil painting of the two of us that we like frame, but put it on, put on hinges. And so it's like a little door on the wall. And there's a little safe behind it. A little safe. Yeah. Or like I did tell her on Etsy, people make like busts,

like, like stature, head statues. And I was like, we should get a bust of each of us and then put that on the, on the secret passageway door. I mean, it should be, you should bend one. It's like the lever secret passageway door. Ah! I mean, come on. You should bend one. It's like the lever to open the door. Creek! And then you should install a microphone

that makes a creek sound, or speaker that makes a creek sound. Because your house is probably not going to creek by itself. No, it will not creek. We only have one creek currently in our house, and it's going to be fixed immediately. And you're already trying to fix it.

I'm like, holy shit. Imagine living in a world where you could fix your only creek. I know, well, miss, I live in a haunted manner. I know, everything creaks all day long, yep. I know. That's how I like it. Okay, so this guy, he's living here for 30 years, he's traveling to Europe a lot,

and at 22 he buys his first oil painting. This is the beginning of him being obsessed with artwork. And eventually he's staying in San Antonio quite a lot instead of over in Tulsa because in San Antonio that's where he has the headquarters for his oil company. I do not know why he picked San Antonio. That feels like a weird move, but okay. I think that's, there's a lot of oil there. I think that's a booming industry there.

Well, so during his time in San Antonio, or sorry, during his time in the 30 years living in this house while he like commutes to San Antonio, he realizes I actually am doing most of my work in San Antonio, I'm gonna go there and the Gilcrease house, which I own, I'm just going to leave empty for a while. Uh oh.

While he is gone, he realizes he could use the house in a better way. And so while he's gone, he turns it into an orphanage for indigenous kids from nearby reservations. Wow. That's a big jump from it's empty to now it's an orphanage. Yeah. Didn't see that coming. I felt like, oh, I'll rent it out for as an

Airbnb. I'll do a Virbo situation for a few minutes. No, he's like, I'm going to open up a whole ass orphanage. Wow. You do hear oil tycoon and you don't think the next move is like, like for indigenous children and orphans. Right? Wow. What a, what a plot twist. Okay. So, okay. So it's now it's an orphanage. Uh, during okay, so now it's an orphanage. During this time, because it's an orphanage, he adds a second floor to the house just to make more room. I think he even adds an entire other building. Oh wow.

So that way everyone's got enough room. But uh-oh, the orphanage only lasts a few years because there was some sort of management, administrative issues going on. We don't know what those were. It sounds dramatic though. Yeah don't know what those were. It sounds dramatic though. Yeah. So it closes pretty quickly. I think it was either five or nine years. I think it was five years. It was as long as it stayed open. This was all while he was in San Antonio, but

on top of the orphanage back at home, while he's in San Antonio, his art collection is growing. And he's like, man, I, man, do I love art. That's what he's been saying. He's like, hey, orphanage kids, don't you love oil paintings? They're like, no, that's really not our interest. Do you have any toys? A yo-yo?

Or Emma? What the fuck is wrong with you? You got a hoop and stick or a mom and dad? Yeah, there you go, Em. It's up there. I prefer family right now. So anyway, he's like absolutely trying to cater to these kids back at home.

It is not working, but what is working is his art collection, yikes. And so he actually has so much art now. He doesn't know what to do that he, he like doesn't know where to put it. He does like, he's at a loss. So he ends up renting bigger space just to keep his art collection and turns it into,

his words, not mine, the Museum of the American Indian. OK. He also, now that he's got this space, same thing happens when you move into a big-ass house, I guess. He was like, well, now that I've got all this space, I should just keep buying art. See, you fill your space. It's what happens.

You find a way. So he continues to expand his art collection. And this includes several indigenous artists in his collection. So he's got whole sections where just indigenous artists are where he's getting his art. Fun fact, apparently, this includes, or in his collection, one of the things that he bought that was like one of his bigger purchases, I think,

was the entire collection of Dr. Philip Gillette Cole. And apparently he's like a big name in art. Again, that's the one place I have not ravaged around in. But the amount that he paid for the entire collection, he couldn't even afford one piece of that guy's art today. Oh, wow. Yeah. Made a deal.

It was a good deal for him back in the day. I've heard of this person, I think, this artist. I looked him up, and it felt like I was going to have to do a totally different topic on him. So I just kind of just left it at his name. Yeah. Okay. But apparently he's a big time artist and like one piece of his art today would be worth more than the entire collection that Gilcrease bought. Whoa. And because Gilcrease in his art collection, he's including so many indigenous artists in his work.

He is even honored by the Sioux nation and made an honorary member. And then they give him the name. I hope I'm saying it right. Wakarpe Wakatuyia, which means high star. Oh, that's so, so he's being recognized by, by other nations for him representing them in his art collection. other nations for him representing them in his art collection. And by 1949, he moves back to Tulsa. From San Antonio. From San Antonio. It's been empty this whole time and it was especially now that it or

it was now empty all this time after the orphanage didn't work out. So he was like, well, no one's there. I'm just going to move back home. He brings his oil company with him, and he brings the museum with him. He opens the San Antonio Museum back in Tulsa. And he renames it the Thomas Gilcrease Institute of American History and Art. And he opens up the museum on the grounds of his home, which is how we get like 460 acres over time.

I mean, he brought his entire art collection and it was probably already bigger than that one museum he was paying for anyway in San Antonio. It was a big ass collection. He had so many pieces. He didn't have enough space now in Tulsa for to display all of it. So now he opens a he opens this museum that I just I just named. He opens it to the public that way. Other people can now see this stuff, too.

Because apparently, I guess he originally had it all out on display. He even hired an architect at some point to like create a museum just for him. Like just to display it all, but like not a museum just for him. To look at it. Like just to display it all, but like not for outside strangers. Yes, like hiring an architect to make like the world's biggest trophy case essentially.

Cool, cool, cool, cool. And then he later was like, okay, I'm gonna open it up to the public. So in the 1950s, oil prices began to decline. So his career starts to suffer and he's struggling to afford maintaining his collection or even paying for new pieces to finish out parts of the collection. And he has like such, such an insane amount of debt.

I think it was like two and a half million dollars or something. He has so much debt and he's like really struggling because oil prices are down that he thinks of just selling his entire collection altogether just so he knows that it at least is all together and like all intact versus people just taking pieces of it. But apparently his museum now that's open to the public,

Tulsa is getting I guess guess, tourism money from that, or people are just obviously coming in more. And so they start freaking out that he's going to sell the collection because then they lose a museum. Right. Right. Right. Right. So citizens of Tulsa get together and like, they like have like, some sort of like town hall meeting, I guess, and they vote to get a bond that will pay all of his debts. That's nice. Yeah. And Gilchrist, I don't even know if he was involved in that. It sounds like other people who just liked his museum and didn't want to lose it agreed to this and then maybe surprised him with, hey, we paid off your debt. With a giant check. Yeah. An oil painting of a check actually.

So Gilcrease is now technically debt free, but other people paid his debts off. And so after he saw the kindness of Tulsa, he decided that he was going to deed the collection to them after he died. Oh, that's nice. And he also, whatever funds he could give them at the time, he agreed to like pay to help maintain the museum.

I think he had a foundation and he agreed in his deed that like the foundation would help pay until the bond was, was, you know, given back essentially. So in 1962, Thomas Gilcrease dies. His remains are entombed on the grounds and his final piece of art, I suppose. Oh, beautiful. And the grounds are still open to the public. The house is not, I guess.

The house has been open every now and then because they'll try to start up art classes or something. An orphanage. Oh. Oh. I know they did art classes for a while or lectures. And so they open it up, but then they always seem to close it and then not use it.

So anyway, the grounds, the gardens and everything are still open to the public. The property, again, expanded to 460 acres. That includes 23 of those acres being gardens. He was a big garden guy, and he was an even bigger bird guy. Oh my god, he has so many hobbies, this guy. He was into gardens, more into birds, more into art. Most into paintings.

Most into paintings. But apparently, he was a big bird guy, and one of his favorite things to do was walk around his garden and go look at the birds. Which, when you've got 23 acres of garden, you've got a lot to cover. And then you go inside and above your fireplace is another painting of a garden with a bird, and you're like, wow, I can see them everywhere. And next to it is the other painting of the big check, where people paid off my debts. Wow, life is good. Life is just perfect. So these gardens, fun fact, I guess he, because to him, I'm assuming the gardens were also

a form of art, because the way that he designed it was that they showcased, this is a quote, showcased the gardening styles of different periods in the American West and plants that were culturally used by Native Americans. And then another quote is about the museum. The museum today houses one of the world's most extensive collections of Native American and Western art and artifacts. And then just to show you how intense this collection was,

another quote is that during his lifetime, Gilcrease collected more than 10,000 artworks, 250,000, that's a quarter of a million, Native American artifacts, and 100,000 rare books and documents, including the only surviving certified copy of the Declaration of Independence. What?

He had quite a collection. Yeah, yeah. And now to tell you about the ghosties there, the things he collected he did not mean to. Oh, I didn't even, I was like, from the five years it was an orphanage, but duh, all the collections of stuff, that makes so much more sense. Well, so actually the very first ghost

is Thomas Gilchrist himself at the house. He is seen wandering, mainly floating through the gardens. He's often looking up at the sky. A lot of people say he's not looking, I guess some people say he's looking up at the sky in some spiritual religious way of seeing a light, but a lot of people say that guy was just probably fucking bird watching.

But I was literally about to say, well, obviously he's bird watching. What do you mean he's having a religious? He's looking for another grackle. I was gonna say, do you happen to know any birds native to Tulsa, Oklahoma that he might've been looking out for? I probably don't, and so I'm just gonna say cardinal

because that seems to be every state's state bird. So I'm just gonna say cardinal. Actually, that's a good point, let me see, hold on. State bird, Oklahoma. It is the scissor-tailed flycatcher, dumbass. That's what I was gonna say next, obviously. I almost came out of my mouth and you interrupted me. Scissor-tailed flycatcher. Dumbass. That's what I was gonna say next, obviously. I almost came out of my mouth and you interrupted me. Scissor-tailed flycatcher.

She's actually so cute. Hang on, you should Google her. Okay, let me tell you real quick. The what? Scissor what? Scissor-tailed flycatcher. The tail looks like two little... She's beautiful.

What a cool bird. And look at her in flight. Her tail literally splits like a scissor. It looks like the ends of a scissor. That is a hot bird. That is a hot bird. That's a weird thing to say, but I maintain it. No, you know that sometimes you can see,

you know when you see an animal and you're like, if you were a human, you'd be really hot. I get, yeah. I'm sure you're all, you're it in the animal kingdom world. I can see it. Most German shepherds sure you're all you're it in the animal kingdom world. I can see it Most german shepherds, I think would be like weirdly hot if they were human but also none of them would speak to me Like so, you know like so hot they wouldn't talk to me Well, like they've all got that chiseled jaw and i'm like, I know you would just be at the gym every day and you take One look at me and not speak to me. The eye makeup is always perfect. I'm like, yeah, way to rub it in.

Yeah, exactly. There's just some, and then there's also some dogs that you see and you go, I know if you were human, you'd be the fuggliest human I'd ever seen in my life. But as a doggy, you're so cute. But as a doggy, you've got the sweetest little long droopy jowls. Um.

Um. Ah. Ah. Ah. Speaking of hot animals, last thing I'll say, you know, who's the hottest of your animals is Juniper. Oh, he fucking knows it. That's a, it's a double eye color, blue and green eyes.

He knows he's got, he would so weaponize that to get all the girls, you know, he knows he's special. He knows it. That's another animal who I know would not take me seriously. He doesn't speak to me. He a cat so I imagine as a person it would be even worse Yeah, interesting that I think all the hot animals would not talk to me. Yeah I wonder what that means to talk to Jordan about that. I don't know how to address that We just did to all of us. So, you know, maybe just play this audio clip for her

I'm sure she'll understand. You know who... Well, no, okay. I know I'm getting too deep into it. Okay, so let's move on quickly before Jordan has, like, a real, like, revelation about my mind. Okay, so Thomas Gilcrease, he's probably birdwatching, and that's what he's known to do in his... in his afterlife. That sounds like a great afterlife.

Seriously, it's like some people's retirement. I was gonna say the ultimate retirement is just bird watching for the rest of time. In your own beautiful gardens, I love that. He also wanders around his house, which apparently is why the, or I should say allegedly, is why the turnover rate as a security guard there

is so high. You're kidding. They keep saying that they have to keep getting new staff because they're like freaked out about the man walking around that they can't do anything about. I love it. People have reported seeing him or I guess like full apparitions of him. Many of the staff have claimed to just walk him walk around at night, and you just gotta be cool with that. I don't know if I would wanna have that job every night.

No, thanks. There's also, interestingly, not just Thomas Gilcrease, but there's another man that walks around the property, and nobody knows who he is. But a ghost man. A ghost man, but nobody knows who he is. One person got a picture of him by the balconies. He was wearing a hat. That's as far as we... That's all we know about him pretty much.

Others see him wandering the halls, but he is known to make really loud bangs and knocks for investigators if you ask. Sometimes when you don't ask, people have heard loud crashing sounds in rooms next door, and then they go in there, and there's nothing wrong with the room. Weird. People have also heard a man speaking and even yelling. They think it might be him. And then the other main ghosts that people see are a group of up to seven children, which they think are kids from the refuge.

Oh, okay. They're seen mainly playing in the gardens, which I wonder if they can also see the same birds that the ghost of Thomas Gilcrease can see. Yeah, I wonder if they see each other. I like to think they can see each other, but also, you know, it's so weird as he didn't live there when it was an orphanage.

He wasn't there when the kids were there, yeah. They may not even know who this guy is. Weird. They're like, that's the guy who keeps making us want, like keeps talking about oil paintings. We just want to play in the with some bugs outside. That weird man obsessed with paintings. Okay, but here's my my favorite part about the kids is that if you go and investigate

there, I guess you can ask the kids for favors and they'll like they want to be helpful. And so one investigative team asked the kids to help them find something from a long, long time ago. Oh my God. Moments later in the same room, they had looked at the whole room and now they found on the ground an old earpiece. I don't know what that means. Like I'm guessing from like glasses or something,

like an old earpiece. What? And they're like, oh, that's weird. And then they left and came back into the same room 10 minutes later and found an old vintage toy. Oh! Like, are you kidding me? Creepy.

People hear the little kids laughing and running around, things like that. But throughout the house in general, people have experienced doors opening and closing on their own, the sounds of them opening and closing on their own. People have gotten doors opening and closing on their own the sounds of them opening and closing on their own people have gotten pictures of glowing lights and pictures of mists walking by they've heard footsteps. They've heard whispers

They've had people get their hair tugged items go missing and then reappear in weird places People have gotten some really weird temperature changes and EVPs including a woman screaming. Help me yikes Which again, I feel like most of the EVPs that I saw listed on different sources, none of them made sense with Thomas Gilcrease's history, but I imagine they all have some attachment to artworks that he's brought into the property. So a woman screaming, help me,

could be from a piece of artwork. There was also, there was one where I saw I think it was EVPs of Two women talking to each other, but there was never really a time where multiple women were living on the property So they think it might be from that Babies crying that could be from the orphanage, I guess but it sounded like a lot of the EVPs were what are The artwork is attached almost like collected in one space. Yeah, how weird.

People also hear a woman singing. People have heard a piano playing. Really weird is they've heard a big band playing upstairs. Oh, that's cool. That terrifies me. Like imagine- Honestly, I prefer that to just like two keys of a piano. Like I'd rather hear the whole band

because if it was one piano, it'd be like, oh, that's sinister. Imagine how jarring that is though. Like it goes from silence to like just the loudest jazz you've ever heard in your life. L is for the way. I'd be fucking delighted. I don't know what you're talking about.

Play me some Glenn Miller band. You know what I mean? Yes, obviously. Obviously everyone does. There's also apparently the sound of two men arguing really loudly, and they don't know what this would be in reference to, but people hear two men screaming at each other upstairs. And then the entire building feels

like something's angry at you. Ooh, oh no. Apparently there was one investigative team who heard them arguing, who heard the two men arguing and like went to go see what was going on and felt someone standing behind her and he felt apparently very mean and very nasty.

And she was, they like, the whole team left shortly after. There's one investigator named Terry French, who I think is part of the main group who goes here. And this is a quote from her. "'Cameras fail, cell phones shut off or won't work. We never turn our bus off because we were afraid at one point that we would never be able to get it started again.'"

Oh, God. Like a horror movie, like the car stops working. Yeah, keep the car stops working. Yeah, keep the car running. A couple years back, they installed a bunch of new security cameras, and they kept going off in the south bedroom one evening. Tulsa police were called,

they came out with trained police dogs where they tried to go up the stairs, but the dogs absolutely refused to go up. Ew. They started whimpering and wouldn't budge. They ran out of the house. And when the police went up there themselves, not a living soul was there.

Dun, dun, dun. Although they have some teams investigate the building, the museum does not actually have any ghost tours that I know of, but the property, fun fact, is currently ran by the University of Tulsa. Okay. And that's the Gilcrease House. That was my lightning round.

I'm sorry. So you could get out on time. No, I'm sorry to rush everything. No, you're good. I just tried to get through it so you wouldn't feel, you know, rushed. Ha ha. Listen, I love it.

Thank you. And I'm excited because I'm also, well, first of all, my story also is partially in Tulsa, but you probably don't remember that because now that we are doing part two, it was two episodes ago that we, two recording sessions ago, because we've switched them around. So I'm going to say part two of the story of Suzanne Svekus. And I'm curious, Em, do you remember much of anything at all from that? I remember the girl. So she goes missing with her kid or the kid goes missing.

Hang on. The kid gets taken out of school by the guy. Yes. With a gun. Yes. The they find out later that the kid is missing, they're trying to find the kid's mom, but then at some point we find out that she's... I don't know the middle part, but I do know that they end up... Someone finds her face on the news when people are looking for her or trying to learn about her, and they find out that that was a completely different name that people remember her going by. And it was actually, she was this, they talked to her best friend, her childhood best friend.

The best friend says, oh yeah, she was like, I witnessed her being fully sexually assaulted by her father. And then we find out later that the guy who kidnapped the baby, who kidnapped her baby, who claimed to be the father of that baby, was actually the father of her and the baby. It was not her husband.

It was her father. I didn't do that concisely at all, if you need to repeat it for other people to make it cleaner. No. I wanted to know what you know so that like I can work with what you've got So that's exactly it So 1994 51 year old Clarence Hughes kidnaps his son six year old Michael Anthony Hughes at Indian Meridian Elementary school in Choctaw, Oklahoma. So like I said, we're in Oklahoma today

Which isn't that far from you? Yes next door and he left the school principal handcuffed to a tree. The FBI got involved and they learned that Michael had recently been removed from Clarence's home. Well, no, sorry, he hadn't been recently removed. He was removed four years ago when Michael's mother died, who was Clarence's wife, Tanya Hughes. And she was involved in a car accident,

hit by a car and had been killed. And when friends told authorities, like, hey, we don't think Clarence makes a good dad for this little two-year-old boy, he was placed in the care of foster parents, Ernest and Merle Bean. And they had been raising him for four years now. They were going through the adoption process as he was abducted from his elementary school. And it had also been determined shortly before that abduction

that Clarence was not Michael's biological father. And that is why his parental rights were permanently revoked. And so Michael, although he was thriving in the new home with the beans, they were on high alert because Clarence was furious about losing custody of his son. Shortly thereafter, Clarence drove to the elementary school, abducted him and the principal. FBI Special Agent Joe Fitzpatrick took the case,

recognized Michael probably had not very long because behavioral science experts predicted that Clarence would get tired of Michael and kill him within a few days. Ooh. And Clarence, get tired of Michael and kill him within a few days. And Clarence, once they dug into him, was identified as one of just many aliases belonging to the same man whose birth name is Franklin Delano Floyd.

And meanwhile, back in Georgia, they're posting all these news reports about Michael being missing, and they're looking for him, and they're sharing photos of his mother who was killed four years ago. And so back in Georgia, Tanya's high school best friend, Jenny, like you mentioned, recognized her, called authorities, said, I don't know who Tanya is. That's my friend Sharon from high school.

So they showed Jenny a picture of Sharon and her husband. And Jenny said, that's not Sharon's husband. That's her dad. And she had, like you mentioned, witnessed him sexually assault his own daughter during a sleepover in high school, which had scarred her for life. And she knew he was a very bad man, but she had no idea what had happened to him

after they left town. They skipped town when Sharon got pregnant by her boyfriend in high school and wasn't able to go to Georgia Tech where she had gotten a full scholarship. Very tragic story, but now we pick back up and investigators now know that Tanya is actually Sharon, or at least that's the name that she went by before Tanya.

So they follow her trail and they find out that she, before going to Oklahoma, she'd actually been in Tampa, Florida, and she had lived there with Franklin slash Clarence sometime after her high school graduation. And he had taken her there and had basically forced her into dancing at a club called Mons Venus. This was a hugely popular club. Sharon's friend and fellow dancer, whose name is Heather Lane, recalled in an interview that this club was known for having beautiful girls. She said, quote, we didn't just wear lingerie,

we wore amazing French lingerie. We wore the best of everything. This was like a high class establishment. This is where- Classy, classy, classy. Yeah, this is where wealthy people came to watch the dancers. And when Sharon first started working at Mons Minas,

the other dancers basically described her as looking like a little kid. They were like, she looks so young. She just graduated high school. Heather described her as looking like a living baby doll. She was just so young and innocent. And she befriended Sharon and tried to, you know, guide her, show her the ropes. And on her first day, on her first night rather, Heather said, okay, Sharon, I'm going to kind of bring you in easy.

I'm going to bring you in on a private party at the club. It's like very beginner level and it has a big payout. Essentially, you're required to dance on the stage, but this package didn't include any touching, right? So no lap dances. So that she was like, this is an easy entry point. Like you can just dance. There's no discomfort of like unwanted touching and that kind of thing.

No lap dances. Like a light start. Yes, like an easy, yeah, exactly. An easy entry point. And at the end of the night, the idea is both dancers could walk away with 500 to a thousand bucks, which today is about 1200 to 1500 dollars. Oh, dang.

And so they brought Sharon in on that. But that night, Heather was like, where did Sharon go? And the club owners approached Heather and said, we kicked Sharon out because she had been standing outside of the bathroom offering men sex acts for $50 Oh shit, okay, and they were like we're not that kind of club and we don't know what her deal is But you could do you could get so much more money for so much less activity. I feel like yeah That was that was the idea So when they questioned her she told the managers her father made her do it

and was asking her to get as much cash as possible from her time there. And that's when Heather realized, oh, great. So Sharon is literally being trafficked by her father. She also quickly realized that Sharon was pregnant because it became impossible for Sharon to conceal. And this was Sharon's second pregnancy, because if you'll recall in high school, she had gotten pregnant by her boyfriend

and her dad kind of canceled her plans to go to Georgia Tech. And so instead they were allegedly going to Arizona to give the child up for adoption, but instead they ended up in Tampa. And to be honest, they didn't know what happened to the first child, but now she's pregnant with her second. And this would become Michael, who later on in the story we're looking for. Okay. So she's pregnant with Michael. Michael became Sharon's whole world.

She absolutely adored him. Sharon lived in a mobile home community with Franklin, her father slash whatever he is, where they had a neighbor named Michelle Couples and she was 15 years old and she often babysat Michael for the family. So Michelle would often see Sharon bring over a friend from the club and this friend was Cheryl Camesso. Now, Cheryl became kind of, I don't even know the best word to use, but she became basically completely wrapped up in this whole Franklin bullshit.

Yeah. So Michelle later described, often seeing Cheryl drive by on her way to visit Sharon and Franklin. And Michelle said Cheryl made a huge impression on her. She was so beautiful, very stylish, was always made up with beautiful hair and clothing, makeup and nails. And Michelle always felt like as kind of a dorky 15 year old, she just felt like so special when Cheryl passed by and said hi to her and gave her attention.

And so she made like quite an impression on young Michelle. But Heather at the club, who was the one who kind of took Sharon under her wing, felt like Cheryl was messing with a dangerous game because Heather already knows like Sharon's dad is trouble. And now- Something's up. Yeah, and so now Cheryl is going to like hang out with them and she's like, this is not a good idea. These people are messy and scary. Something bad's going to happen. And she basically thought Cheryl was too naive to be dealing with these people. All the dancers knew Sharon's father

was scary and unsafe, but Cheryl just couldn't get away from him for some reason. They couldn't figure out why. Um, I think it was basically boiled down to the fact that she was somewhat naive and he kept telling her and he was just so good at using people's vulnerabilities. So he often told her he had connections with Playboy. He was going to make her a star, you know, that age old bullshit.

And she just got really roped into it. One day, 15 year old Michelle, the babysitter from next door, was hanging out with at Franklin's trailer, watching wrestling on TV. And he said, Oh, I want to record this. So he put a VHS tape in. But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But the tape started playing and Michelle briefly saw a video of Sharon, so Franklin's daughter,

and Cheryl, Sharon's friend from the club, dancing topless together on a beach. Oh God, okay. And she was really taken aback because why would a father have a taped video of his daughter doing that? Was it to gauge whether or not she was not offended by it or like into it or something?

No, it was an accident. He told her, never repeat what you just saw. Oh, oh, oh, oh. It was a blank tape that he thought was blank. I thought he was like saying, oh, I'm going to record this just to give a reason to put the video in and then make people watch it. Okay. No, no, no.

This was meant to be a secret. So he told her, you know, don't ever, you have to promise you'll never tell anyone what you just saw. And so for years she kept that to herself. So one night at Mons Venus, the club, Heather had to intervene because Franklin and Cheryl were having a huge disagreement out in the parking lot of the club and the argument became violent. Heather tried to intervene. Franklin hit the gas and did that thing where he pretended he was going to hit her, but then like breaks right at the last second.

Just, yeah, really fucked up. And she knew Franklin was physically abusing, not only Sharon, but also Cheryl now, because they were both coming to work covered in bruises. They were always spending time together. And she just, Heather knew, Heather knew. She said we did as in herself and the other dancers did everything we could to try to create separation between Cheryl and Franklin,

but Cheryl just couldn't seem to break away from him. One day she showed up to work with strangulation bruises on her neck and the other dancers basically just felt in their bones. Like, if this keeps up, he's going to kill her. But nothing they said could get her kind of out of that relationship. So after Heather made him drive away, after that fight, people reported hearing him threaten to kill Cheryl.

Like it was just a very volatile, violent fight. Heather made him leave the property and she walked Cheryl back to her car and told Cheryl, I cannot protect you from them. You need to stay away from them. Cheryl kind of said, okay, yeah, sure. I understand. And left and Heather assumed she was heading home to her dad's house, but that would be the last time Cheryl was ever seen alive again. Did Cheryl ever... I mean, I don't... I feel like you would have probably just covered it. But did she ever say anything other than like, oh, ha ha ha, he's so silly? Like... like the... or is that Sharon?

Sharon is his daughter. Is the daughter, okay. Because Cheryl is the friend from work who keeps getting involved. Gotcha, so is Cheryl, okay, so kind of same question then, is, did Cheryl ever say anything that made it seem like she was aware at all, or did she really just seem so gullible and naive and like not suspicious of any of this?

You know, I mean, I'm assuming she knew at the very least, like, he's not a good guy, but I doubt she really thought he was going to kill her. Like hurt her, yeah. Because it seems like the classic abusive relationship of like, oh, no, deep down he's like really fine. And, you know, I think it was one of those situations where it just built up and built up

and she didn't see how toxic it was from the inside maybe. And everyone else saw the warning signs and she just didn't listen, you know. So it's hard to say and I feel like we only have a few people's accounts and this is so many decades ago that it's hard to say. But it seems like she just got mixed in with the wrong guy. And he was just so, you know, icky. He was able to worm his way into her whole life and basically take it over. And so Cheryl was never seen again. Meanwhile, Franklin, Sharon and Michael skipped town without a word and never came back to

work. So shortly afterwards, surprise, surprise, Cheryl Camesso was reported missing and oddly, not really at all, Franklin's and Sharon's trailer burnt to the ground. How mysterious. How not at all kind of expected. I know, right? What a surprise. One neighbor even said they saw a stranger smoking a cigarette and

Right before the trailer exploded in flames basically the idea was the rumors were it was most likely arson And that they had paid someone to or that Franklin had paid someone to burn down the home in case You know at first they thought well, maybe it's insurance fraud obviously looking back We now know the motivation was probably to hide evidence right totally case. You know, at first they thought, well, maybe it's insurance fraud. Obviously looking back, we now know the motivation was probably to hide evidence. Right. Totally. So investigators now in, you know, the future as they're piecing this all together, they know where the story is headed. And that's that Sharon Franklin and Michael relocated to Tulsa, Oklahoma. Sharon became a dancer at Passions. And along the way, they had picked up these new names

that they had gotten from like gravestones and had taken those. So she became Tanya, he became Clarence, and they created this whole new life story about themselves. And so in Tampa, Franklin was Sharon's father. In Tulsa, he had now become Tanya's husband, and he was Clarence. Yes, totally. So investigators were horrified, obviously, that Franklin had abused his daughter, his

own daughter for so, so long, like her whole entire life. And Joe, the FBI agent, found it really difficult to be piecing this together and thinking about Sharon's life, that she had been trapped in such a dark situation for so long and then ended up being killed and essentially never got out of it. And he couldn't even imagine what it must have been like to live her entire life under Franklin's control. So as he's piecing together her backstory, Franklin's backstory, Franklin's backstory, something kind of nags at him. And he's going through the timelines, and he realizes, based on what we know of Sharon's age and the years that Franklin spent in prison, there is no way Franklin could possibly be Sharon's biological father. Oh. Oh.

Okay. So a new thought occurred to Joe. Franklin hadn't served time before for abducting a child. He may have abducted Sharon as a child as well and gotten away with it. Okay. I mean yikes, but like, another plot twist. Another plot twist. But honestly, like, if there's any silver lining, at least there's not like a biological incest thing going on now, I guess it's still I guess, but being I don't know, it's still a father figure,

right? So it's like, it's still mentally incest. Well, yeah, it's still incest, I think, because if it's your father, even if he abducted you and is saying he's your father, you know, I think it's still- Well, I think my question, because my thought behind that is like, I'm assuming she knows that he is not her father, or was it when she was so young

that she thinks it's her dad, or? That's a good question. I don't think she really knows the whole or knew the whole truth. I'm not really sure. I am not really sure. She was quite young. She was quite young when she was abducted. Sure. Incest is incest is incest. I didn't know if like she knew the whole time and like thought he was like a, you know, I don't know if she saw him as a dad or not. That's why I said that.

But yeah, either way, still bad. Yeah. Still a plot twist. Really bad. Um, so investigators knew obviously with Michael being missing, that this is very time sensitive and they desperately needed to figure out where Franklin had been, where he had gone. And having been a fugitive for 17 years and being on the run for that much time, investigators were like, okay, what we do know about criminals is that they will repeat patterns. They'll do what they've done because it's worked for them before. So they had a list of his past aliases and they basically put out, I don't know if it's called an all points bulletin, but basically put out a call for anybody basically

like a ding on any of these names that he used to use and in any of the towns or areas where he used to live. So thankfully they did one day receive notice there was a hit on the name Warren Marshall and apparently Franklin had renewed his driver's license by mail in Louisville Kentucky and so when that happened they got the ding. They organized an undercover operation in which a detective would pose as the delivery driver with the mail, with the ID in it so that he would, you know, come out and basically say, yes, that's me. Yeah.

Confirm his ID. Yeah. Correct. And then they could arrest him. And so that day arrived November, 1994 with everyone in position, the covert detective knocked on the door. He accepted the mail and they move in, they arrest him. They immediately search his home, but there is no sign of Michael, of little Michael. They questioned the neighbors and they said, yeah, we've seen him around, but we have not seen a child anywhere. And now they're thinking, oh no,

that's not a good sign. So they found a bus ticket. They found a bus reservation. And now they're thinking, oh no, that's not a good sign. So they found a bus ticket, they found a bus reservation. He had arrived in Louisville by bus. And unfortunately there was only one ticket for one adult on that reservation. So he had not brought Michael with him. Yikes, okay. So investigators feared the worst,

but when they asked him, Franklin said, I would never hurt him. He's my son. And when they escorted him out, uh, after his capture, he said, he's my son and I love him very much. I hope they find him, which is like, that's very, um, you hit you. Shenan, uh, the guy that he did. Oh my God. Yes. Wow. That, wow. Yes.

Like it's like Chris Watts. I think Chris Watts, the way that like in interviews, everyone was like, how is he? This is not a normal talking to reporters and being like, Oh man. Yeah. And so he basically told reporters like, I love him. I hope they find him. And it's like, you actively took him by gunpoint. I mean, you hope they find him. And it's like, you actively took him by gunpoint. I mean, you hope they find him, tell us where he is. It's just so bad shit to me. So eventually Franklin told investigators

an optimistic version of the story that they wanted to believe, but kind of couldn't quite believe. According to him, he'd left Michael with a very kind, wealthy family who wanted a son to raise as their own, but nobody really- Oh, generous. Yeah, wow, that's so thoughtful of son to raise as their own. But nobody really. Generous.

That's so thoughtful of you to take him by gunpoint and then give him away to a wealthy family. But yeah, right. After like duct taping the principal to a tree or some shit like that. Yeah, bullshit. So, of course, no one's buying it. And Merle and Ernest Bean were like we they went on TV. They made public appeals to find Michael.

They had been so close to completing his adoption when he was abducted. It was like very, very bitter for them. In fact, they did not foster another child for a long time after that because they really struggled with this loss. And they had they had they had fostered like 80 kids or some shit. Yeah, over their lifetime. I think that was that came out a year or two ago. So they've definitely went back to fostering. But at the time, it was really, really hard. They said all the kids counted him as a brother, you know, and so it was very heartbreaking. But despite all the public pleas, there was no word of where Michael could be. And the only person who knew exactly where Michael was refused to speak.

And the guy saying, I hope you find him. Yeah, I mean, exactly, exactly. It's infuriating. So investigators were convinced at this point, unfortunately, that Franklin had murdered both Michael and Sharon, but they had no evidence for Sharon's case and they couldn't even prove Michael was dead. So instead all they could do is charge him with the kidnapping of Michael and principal James Davis, kidnapping using a firearm, carjacking, and carjacking using a firearm because the truck that he had taken was actually the principal's truck. Oh my God.

And then he had taken that with him and left the principal handcuffed to a tree. So while they are building this case against Franklin, they go tracking down that truck. And wouldn't you know it, they find it. They find it at a mechanic in Kansas and the mechanic said, hey, you might want to take a look at what I found, a hidden tape to the gas tank. Okay. They said, we probably don't want to see it, but show us anyway.

And that's what we would say for sure. That's what I would say. Can you just tell me what you found? Can you just hint at it? I don't really want to know, but yeah, precisely your instinct is correct because tape to the gas tank was an envelope. Inside there was child sexual abuse material featuring Sharon as a small child, as well as another young woman who had been beaten so badly that investigators looked at the photos and said, he killed this woman. Like she's, she's so on the brink of like, she's been beaten so badly in these photos. There's no way. They were pretty confident he had killed this person.

Wow. So they had no idea who she was, this other woman. They knew Sharon, but they sent the photos of the other woman to agencies throughout the country, hoping like maybe somebody would recognize her. And in the meantime, they went forward with the kidnapping case and that went to trial. So in court, we talked about Jenny, who was the one who said, who kind of cracked the case and said, that's, that's not Tanya, that's Sharon, and that's not

her husband, that's her dad. So she actually testified in court and she said it was absolutely terrifying. And remember like her last real interaction with him was that horrible scarring life-changing moment when she witnessed him at a sleepover, raping his own daughter in front of her by gunpoint. I mean, that was, that was her experience with him. So you know, she's now on the stand and she said it was absolutely terrifying. But afterward she basically described it as a feeling of, I got you, fucker. Good. Yes. Yes. Thank you. Wow. So Franklin, of course, being one of these fucking

bastards we talk about on the podcast, decided he wanted to defend himself in court because they always do. I love it. I love it. Please. It's like the only good thing that ever happens in these because you're like, okay, well then I know you go to prison because you're too stupid to defend yourself. You just think you're so smart. You don't even have to tell me the rest of the story. Exactly. Well, I feel like every judge, I feel like this, I mean, if you're a judge out there and you for some fucking reason listen to this show, can you tell me if like when people say they're going to defend themselves, what the percentage is of people who are guilty that do that? I wonder if I can look that up. Because I feel like it's nearly a hundred. Yeah, I feel like that can't be good. And how many of them at least are narcissists? It's got to be 90%.

Oh, I mean, especially in a case like this. I mean, it's one thing to defend yourself with a parking violation, but like to defend yourself, like over the murder of multiple people and kidnapping of a child, like good luck to you, my friend. But I feel like if a judge sees a man go, I'm going to defend myself. I feel like they respond exactly how we do. I'm like, great, come on down.

Easy, we'll be done by lunch. Yeah. And I also, it's also extra scary though, if you think about it, cause like, I mean, I've definitely seen this on like SVU and stuff, but, and Criminal Minds, but because he wanted to defend himself, he's the now the one who's cross-examining Jenny.

So like that part is scary because now she has to go face to face with him and he's, you know, challenging her. Well, so I think actually Mariska talked about this in one of the episodes where I think that's where I'm getting this information from. But a lot of times I think people will decide that they're going to defend themselves in court because they know they're going to jail but it's their one last way of harassing. Oh, ew. It's like, I'll take the fall and I know I'm probably going to go to jail because there's no way I could do this as good as a lawyer, but I get to degrade you in front of everybody

one more time. Well, I don't think that he really was concerned about her so much because he didn't even, I don't think remember her. She remembered him because she was witness to that sleepover. So in this case, he's just cocky. Yeah. He just thought he could do this himself. Like she remembered him because she was witness to that sleepover. But I don't- So in this case, he's just cocky. Yeah, he's just, he just thought he could do this himself. And when he was cross-examining her, he said,

"'Oh, you only think I'm a bad person "'because the FBI has already informed your opinion of me.'" And Jenny goes, "'No, I actually based my opinion of you a long time ago "'when I saw you rape my best friend and your daughter.'" Bam, that's right. You go girl. And she said to him outraged, you were her daddy, you were her father. And she said after that basically Franklin's defense team just looked completely defeated. Like they were

like, okay, well we're lost. We lost. So of course the court found Franklin Floyd guilty. He was sentenced to 52 years in prison with no chance of parole. But investigators were still pretty frustrated that they couldn't charge him for the murders they believed he had committed. But they were at least glad that he was going to be behind bars. But of course, there were still so many questions like, where is Michael and who is this mystery woman in the photos? So March 29th, 1995, this case takes a whole mother turn when a highway crew discovers skeletal remains in Florida, alongside a breast

implant and abandoned clothes and jewelry. It's Cheryl. It's Cheryl. She has been shot in the head and she was listed as a Jane Doe until a year later when detectives matched the shirt found with the remains, the skeletal remains, to the photo that was inside the gas tank, taped to the gas tank of the badly beaten woman in the truck. So essentially they now know, they're piecing this all together. They're saying, okay, dental records confirm it. The woman in the photo is Cheryl Camesso. Franklin clearly has murdered her and dumped her body and was sexually abusing her as well as Sharon. And it looks like Franklin and Sharon timeline wise

had fled town after the murder years earlier and Franklin changed their names and married Sharon as a cover to like change their identities. Dang. So detectives searching for Cheryl might suspect Franklin, this was at least his plan, but now they were searching for a father and his daughter and grandson,

not a married couple and their child, which is why he like twisted the plot and said, oh no, like this is my wife, you know, and that's why everything got so convoluted. And of course the idea is he probably burned down the trailer to destroy evidence. All this is kind of coming together. Of course, they end up talking to Michelle Couples, a babysitter from next door.

She looks at the photos and says, oh yeah, that's Cheryl. And also that's Franklin's pullout couch that she's sitting on. Like, that's his couch from his trailer. So she knows full well exactly where the photos were taken. And with that, Franklin was charged with Cheryl's murder. Thank God found guilty and he was sentenced to death in 2002. So at least, you know, Cheryl's family had closure and they were at least able to, you know, name her,

give her a name instead of just a Jane Doe. But of course, Detective Joe is not finished yet because he's looking for Michael. And they also want to- Poor Detective Joe. Poor Detective Joe is like, I'm so overwhelmed. He's looking for Michael, which is like very time sensitive, even though he's pretty sure he's probably been killed,

but he wants to find him alive, hopefully. But also he's like, who is Sharon? Was she really abducted? Like, where did she come from? Where's her family? And so in 2002, there was this author named Matt Burbeck, and he saw a photo of Sharon as a child and learned about her story and felt very compelled to write about it. So he tried his best to solve the case and he interviewed Franklin in prison, but wouldn't

you know it, Franklin refused to admit anything factual. And instead he told Michael his own childhood story, which, you know, was pretty traumatic. He was raised in a children's home, was terribly abused. And when asked about Sharon, all he would say is she loved me no matter what. And that's the only information he would give. So Matt published this book about Sharon and fortunately it had like an ambiguous ending that failed to name her true identity. But with the release of the book, he hoped like maybe this will stir up some interest and someone will come forward. Some chatter. Yeah, some chatter and maybe we'll get a lead.

And amazingly they did because in 2005, only a year after the book's release, Matt received an email that read, would the DNA of Sharon's daughter help you? Oh, yes. Yes. It turns out a young woman named Megan, who was Sharon's third child who had been put up for adoption, had been with her family. All they knew is that her birth mother had died

in a car accident. They didn't know anything more than that. Oh, wow. But when Megan was a junior in high school, her aunt read Matt's book and said, this is very weird. This sounds a lot like what's happening. You know, this sounds weirdly familiar. So she reached out and said, Sharon's my mother. So they were able to at least piece that together.

Meanwhile, two FBI agents are on the case trying to find Michael, and in 2001 the FBI and the Center for Missing and Exploited Children reopened the case, hoping to find any thread of where Michael might be. But in 2014, Franklin finally admitted that he killed Michael the same day he abducted him. And he wouldn't give any more information. He did say where he buried Michael, but days of excavation never recovered any remains. And so to this day, his remains have never been found, which is just horrible. I mean, this little six-year-old boy. So FBI agents continued questioning Franklin.

They want to know the truth about Sharon. And it seems like since he finally relented and admitted that he killed Michael, maybe he'll finally admit that he abducted Sharon. And he does. It's like these narcissists love to talk about themselves. They just can't help it. Yeah, did he like, did he let it,

like, did he just admit it or? I think he's probably just bored, like in prison. And he's like, I get attention when I tell stories, you know? And so that's my guess. I mean, I don't stories you know and so that's my guess I mean I don't really know that but that's my guess because I know if it was the the cockiness thing where he thought he could say more than he really should and then someone actually caught him on it I mean he's on death row already so I don't think he has anything to lose you know so I think finally he's like all right if this gets me like press and you know into a into a book and yada, yada,

I'll tell you what happened. And he did. He said he used to work as a bus driver in North Carolina, where he met a woman named Sandy, who had recently lost her three children to the state. And this actually turned out to be true. They found her. Her name was Sandra Sandy Sveikis. She had married her husband, Clifford Sveik, right out of high school and they had a daughter named Suzanne Sivakis, who ended up being Sharon, while Clifford was deployed as a soldier in Vietnam. They divorced and Sandy had two more daughters, Allison and Amy, but she was now a single mother.

She had all three girls in a mobile home community and a tornado came through and flattened their neighborhood and tipped their home over onto its side. Holy shit. And because of this Sandy began suffering severe PTSD and she knew she needed help. She was having these flashbacks. She would sit in the corner of the room unable to move while her daughters tried to engage with her, talk to her. And one day she was so desperate for help she went to social services expecting like

maybe they could give her some counseling or some childcare assistance. Instead they took custody of all three children. And they told her, honey, go to church, you'll feel better. What? Oh, that was so bad. Really? That was better, better quotes than any plot twist so far in the story. That was that's so messed up. So get this. Why is she goes to church and this man comes forward and says,

Hey, I can help you. My name is Franklin Floyd. Oh, fuck. meets him at church. I mean, it's just like, of all things. Well, first of all, social services contacted Sandy's ex-husband Clifford and the father of her eldest daughter, Suzanne. And they said, hey, you know, you can have Suzanne. However, we're not separating Suzanne from Alison and Amy because they're so close. So either you could accept custody of all three girls or relinquish parental rights to Suzanne. And he was only 22 years old.

He just got home from Vietnam, was shell shocked, traumatized. He was struggling to adjust to life back in the States. He was unemployed. He was living with his parents. He was like, I can't raise three young children. So he made the really painful decision to relinquish custody of Suzanne so she could be placed alongside her sisters in an adoptive family.

Okay. Meanwhile, Sandy took the social worker's advice. She went to church and while she was crying in a pew, a man named Franklin Floyd approached her, asked her what was wrong and told her he could help her. So he married her and they got their daughters back from social services. But Sandy quickly realized this was not a good Samaritan.

He actually was terrorizing the family, her and her daughters. He was threatening them with knives, who's physically abusing them. One day she was out buying diapers and she was arrested for a bad check and was sentenced to 30 days in jail. And by the time she was released,

she got home and all three of her daughters and Franklin were gone. Oh, my God. So she went to the police. But when they found out Sandy and Franklin were married, they said, it's a domestic issue. We can't help you. You have to figure it out on your own. Unfortunately, going on with the with the resources in this town.

Oh, my God. Well, no comment. No comment. That's okay. Franklin was long gone. He had actually dropped Amy and Allison off at an orphanage and left town with Suzanne, whom he renamed Sharon. And finally, Sharon Marshall slash Tanya Hughes had her birth name back. She was Suzanne Svekus and both her parents were still alive. Wow. So in 2014, 15, 16, they're now realizing what has happened to their daughter. It must just be so tragic. I can't, I can't even imagine. So all the pieces are now together. It's kind of ends up, you know, with a beautiful heartwarming story. Matt and Suzanne's daughter, Megan, who's Sharon's birth daughter,

worked together to erect a new gravestone for Suzanne, replacing the one that her friends had originally written to just say, Tanya. Oh. I know. And Megan was just so delighted to meet people who had known Suzanne in life, and she was able to learn what a bright, wonderful,

and loving person her birth mother had been. Jenny, Suzanne's high school best friend, was happy to finally learn the truth about Suzanne's life and was able to share stories about her as a teenager and what a wonderful friend she had been. And Megan said in an interview, she was the definition of a friend to everyone,

the sound voice and the support system for people, which is absolutely insane because she had none of that at home and she did it all with such poise. Yeah. So the new headstone was erected June 3rd, 2017 with the epitaph reading, devoted mother and friend. And I know it gives me goose goose cam. They held a memorial service in her honor and Suzanne's friends, her parents and her daughter Megan were all in attendance. Her father Clifford said he took comfort

in learning how much Suzanne meant to people and found it amazing that despite her circumstances, she seemed to have made such a, you know, the most out of her life and such good relationships with people, even though she had such a bad home life. Yeah, despite it all. Despite it all. And he was now able to connect with Megan, his granddaughter, which was really cool. Yeah, despite it all. Despite it all. And he was now able to connect with Megan,

his granddaughter, which was really cool. Oh, that's great, yeah. And so he said, I can't talk to Suzanne, but I can talk to Megan and that'll do. So, oh, makes me want to cry. Megan has her own, okay, now I'm going to cry. Megan has her own son now, whom she named Michael after the older brother she never met.

And she said, Michael didn't get to live out his name and I wanted that name to keep going. So, piece of shit, Franklin Floyd died in prison of natural causes, age 79 in January, 2023. And that is the story, the two part story of Suzanne Savakis. Ooh, what a doozy. He died last year of natural causes,

even though he was on death row. Yeah, most people don't get, I mean, death row usually takes like decades. A long time. Yeah. Okay. Well, Christine. Oh, thank you so much.

I mean, wow. Thank you to Saoirse for helping piece this together. Thank you to the documentary, The Girl in the Picture, which is so well done and features Megan and a lot of other, and Jenny and the babysitter. So if you want to watch all of them kind of tell their own stories, that's a really cool documentary to watch.

It's on Netflix. Wow. Well, and Christine, we did it on time. I know, now I got to run to soccer practice, but next, we did it on time. I know, now I gotta run to soccer practice, but next time we record, we will be recording in after hours, after dark. And I'll either be in here or I'll have better internet. We'll find out.

We'll all find out together. If you look like a professor next week or if you look like another, a little gremlin back in your old control room. That's good to say, I could do a show and tell. There's all sorts of weird shit in here. That'll be the, if you come back next time and you're in there, then the after hours could be,

or the after dark could be the show and tell of it. I'll just like grab random stuff off the shelves and see what's inside. It could be a yearbook, it could be some- Could be that doll again. Could be that doll, she seems to be everywhere. So yeah, anyway, thanks for listening, everyone. I know you have to run, but thank you, everybody.

Please go get our book, buy tickets for our live show. Join us on Patreon. And this is the shortest episode ever. That's why we drink.