And That's Why We Drink - E393 A Feral Rat Summer and A Trench Coat Full of Snakes

Episode Date: August 18, 2024

Welcome to episode 393, where we discover Em has broccoli hair! This week Em takes us to Indiana and the spooky Stepp Cemetery. Then Christine covers the wild case of Sally McNeil. And is Christine the new Kevin McAllister? ...and that's why we drink!We're getting so close to our very first live show of our new tour where we explore a brand new haunted location! Get your tickets and your creepy vibes ready! andthatswhywedrink.com/live

Hi. Hi. What's cookin'? Good lookin'? I just woke up from a nap. You have a sleepy little voice. Yeah, I fell asleep on the floor of Leona's room. She got home this morning from her trip.

I didn't know what to do. I was like, I'm gonna go the floor of Leona's room. She got home this morning from her trip. I did say on the last recording because I was scared I was going to get in the night, but I was home alone for like five days and I was too scared to say it out loud. But I've been home alone for five days. I'm who I feel like a new person from home alone. I like, um, Blaise and Leona left and I turned into just like a feral human being.

Like it was rough. I welcome back. Thank you. It was, I was like, wow, I don't have my shit together if I don't have somebody to keep my shit together for. So anyway, yeah. If anyone's ever wondering if why I just seem like I'm always living in a wasteland, it's because I don't have anyone else to have to worry about. So I know it was incredible. I was like, the first day was rough. Then I like, I think I got it out of my system. And by day three, I was like, okay, I can be a human again.

I don't need to like live in, you know, my little hovel of my own making. So I got back on track and I pulled myself together and had an enjoyable time. But now they're back and we're back at it. But nothing scary happened when they were gone. So I was hoping maybe there'd be something ghosty to share, but nothing happened. It's weird to hope that something ghosty happens for content, but to actually really hope

nothing happens at all. I think in the moment I absolutely did not hope for it. You're right, I probably turned off any sort of signaling because I was too scared. to actually really hope nothing happens at all? I think in the moment I absolutely did not hope for it. You're right, I probably turned off any sort of signaling because I was too scared. What did Leona do while she was away? They went to Connecticut to visit Grammy and Papa and they had a lot of ice cream and they went swimming a lot

and she went to Dinosaur State Park where she could collect rocks and geodes and fossils. It sounded like a fun time. Not as fun as me ordering sushi at like three in the morning and then ordering Sonic and sitting in my bed and eating all of it. So nothing- Yeah, that sounds much more fun for me. Yeah, nothing quite so fun as that.

But yeah, I've I've they're back and I woke up early to get them from the airport and then immediately fell asleep in Leona's room. Great. So before you ask I'm drinking my venti drink and I'm drinking a hazelnut oat milk shake and espresso because that's my favorite drink right now at Starbucks. Oh, wow. I am- What about you? I am just drinking a big jug of water. I haven't been going to really any coffee shops

or anything in a long time. So I've- Wow. Just been doing water. Whoa. I mean, it's just easier. I don't just it just keeps me from having to keep refilling my coffee. I love that it's humongous. Is that a gallon? Yeah I do better just carrying around a gallon because otherwise then I have to think about getting more water. Refilling it? Yeah forget it. I don't want to do that. That's why I don't drink water then you don't have to worry about refilling it. Yeah, well, speaking of which,

wherever on the range you are to the dirty little rats out there, thirsty little rats, I keep saying dirty little rats, but I'm kind of into it. To all the thirsty little rats out there, drink up or have a coffee apparently apparently so don't drink water or do You can just drink up whatever you're drinking You don't have to specify, you know, just drink up can lap out of a puddle like a real true thirsty dirty little rat Yeah. Yeah, this is getting weird. But I was really excited because Megan our social media gal made I was really excited because Megan, our social media gal, made brat summer but rat summer, thirsty little rat summer memes to share on Instagram.

That gave me a good chuckle. Yeah, I know, I got a kick out of that. I really appreciate all of the, I don't know if you're keeping up with the news, but they're doing a lot of having to teach boomers what the Gen Z lingo is these days. And everyone's calling Kamala brat and everyone's calling everyone's calling Tim Walls Midwest princess. And they had to do a literal segment on the news about how those are good things. Okay, yeah. Not wrong, you know, no, I'm down with it. Anyway, I'm glad that you had some time off mentally from being a mom.

I would need that all the time. Thank you. It was refreshing. And it was long enough that at the end, the last day, I was like, oh my gosh, I miss them so much. You know, it was that perfect timing of like, Oh, that's nice. OK, now what?

I've done everything I needed to do. I'm, I did, I had a seance, my friend came over for wine and we had a seance, just the usual stuff. And then Leona, I was like, I miss her. And then the next morning they came home. So it was good timing. That's lovely. I see. That's why I don't think I, a child is for me because I think I would realize, oh yeah,

I enjoy this a lot more. I hope they don't come back. So I think I'm exactly where I'm meant to be right now. I think you just kind of learned to know, yeah. I think, I don't know, I don't know. Don't speak too soon. I mean, listen, I had a great grand old time, but I did realize I cannot keep my shit together

when left to my own devices. So, um. Fair enough. Yeah. Um, and the animals are good? Everybody's happy. The boys loved being with me all week.

All of them. Geo, I'm sure Geo probably loved being the only one that got attention. He became my first born all over again. It was such a pain in the ass. Yeah. He's just like lur God, he became my first born all over again. It was such a pain in the ass. Yeah. He's just like lurking in the halls, waiting for you. He's lurking in every fucking, not even in the hall, just like in my, in my face, in breath in my face,

immediately, every second of the day. Well, I'm glad, I'm glad you had a little respite. Is there a reason why you drink or is that a good reason why you drink this week? I think the reason I drink is I got to live out my five days of pre-parenthood life and it was fine. I think I just needed to get it out of my system. I needed a few days of just like untethered, unhinged,

Everyone needs that. ...feral, feralness. So I'm alive. Rat summer. I'm back. Yeah. Rat summer for me. Rat, feral rat summer for me. I have, I think a fun little story for you today. She's an urban legend of sorts. Okay. And this comes out of Indiana, in Martinsville, Indiana.

This is the Step Cemetery. Oh, okay. I like a cemetery story. I feel like cemetery stories are so hard to do a lot of the time because there's just not enough ghost stuff. Like I say this all the time. So I don't know. Here I go repeating myself for the 400th episode. But there's so it's so hard to find to like find enough information on so many stories. We're like, yeah, there's a haunted cemetery. But if the best I've got from like, a dozen sources is that people hear a voice, it's

like, well, how do I make that into a whole episode? So luckily, this is one where there's enough to work off of. And I feel like I never really get to cover cemeteries, which is so ironic because it's a paranormal podcast. Yeah, yeah, that's true. Anyway, so here is a cemetery story for all of you. This is again in Martinsville, Indiana. This is near Bloomington, Indiana,

and it's in the Morgan Monroe State Forest. Ooh la la. You already won't find me there, because it's a cemetery, but I have to go through a forest first? Absolutely not. I'm just lost. If you see me there, I've just gotten very

lost. And please help me find my way home. If you ever find Christine in the forest, don't even ask why she's there. Just grab her hand and gently guide her back to the road. Yeah. So apparently this is also known as the step precinct cemetery, but nobody calls it that. It's the step cemetery. Also, have we noticed my hair today? I slept weird and now I've got like this pompadour situation. Oh, I'm seeing it now that you mentioned it, but it's, I love a pompadour on you. That's like a very classic.

I hate it, but it's unstoppable. I have a hair, a hair, one hair. I have a hair situation where if I'm having a bad hair day, there's no fixing it. It's too thick, but it just stays in place. It has a mind of its own. Right, right, right. I just have to embrace it.

Luckily I only have a few bad hair days a year, so when it happens, it's gotta roll with it. I like it, it's a little voluminous, you know? It's just a little different. It looks like I put product in it, but this is just where we are. It does look like that thing that the kids are doing now where they get the big thing

up front and they put, they get a perm. Oh, broccoli hair? Yeah. They call it broccoli hair apparently. I don't know if they call it that, but people who make fun of them do. Yeah. So, yeah, it does look a little- Got a little perm going on.

Extra crisp on top. Yeah. So, I just, I didn't mean to interrupt. I just saw myself in the camera and went, oh my God, You interrupted yourself. It's, it's allowed. It's a first. Uh, not, it's not. Yeah, right. So, okay. We're in a forest. The step cemetery is only accessible in this forest by a small dirt path. by a small dirt path and it's this small rural cemetery, rural cemetery with between 20 to 114 graves. I looked at probably, let me see how many sources I use this week.

Between four and 20. I used, I used between 20 and 114. No, I used, I used 17 links and apparently I used, I used between 20 and 114. No, I used, I used 17 links and apparently I used nine videos and all of them gave me between 20 and 114 graves and they each said it multiple times. So I could not begin to tell you how many graves are there today. So what? You want me, they want me to go count them? I mean, Jesus, can't somebody go count them? Some were like very specific.

I mean, 114, like why don't you just say 115? Like, don't be a douche, you know? But then there was also like 32 graves, 56 graves. What? Okay. Well, I can't keep up. So at least 20. Dozens of graves. That's a great way to put it. There's dozens of graves there. Every source used a different number, but it's been around since 1851. The cemetery itself was established in 1856. So for five years, this was just kind of like a random

little burial ground. People were just burying people here. I bet they were thinking like, I hope one day other people do it so I don't look fucking weird for burying my family members here. Yeah, like imagine being the first one. I feel like, I mean, we don't have a cemetery. Do I have to pick where the cemetery goes? Yeah, also- It's like a lot of pressure. Well, here's the other thing. So it was bought by this guy named Ruben Stepp. Obviously that's where we get Stepp from.

And he kept it for 30 years. He then sold it to a different guy who then sold it to a different guy. Basically by the 1920s, it was owned by the state. The cemetery has about 50 tombstones, so they say dating back to 1851, which is five years before. And the earliest one is from this guy named Private Isaac Hartstock, who fought in the war of 1812. So there are probably other unmarked graves, but since nobody was there to really label them, we don't know about that.

And that's where the dozens come from. Right? Yes. Yes. Okay. And because I guess a lot of like vandals are coming in and a lot of teens, you know how the teens are? Yeah.

With their broccoli hair, their broccoli hair. They've been going in there and like kind of destroying the property. And so we, because of that, we also don't know how many graves are left or how many graves are. Oh, the teens did it? Damn teens. The teens, since the fifties, the teens have been coming here and doing this. So the paranormal activity has been reported since the cemetery's beginning, so since the 1800s. And it's locally known as like a very haunted area of Indiana. One of the most rumored, or no, not one of the most, sorry,

one of the first rumored ghosts to be at the cemetery does date back to the 1800s. And it is one of Ruben Step's children, not to be confused with Ruben's Stepp children because that kept throwing me. That's a good point. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ruben Stepp's Stepp kids. So it's said that he roams the property and apparently he's very angry and he will approach anyone who trespasses and he's like, don't come near me. But here's the thing. This apparently

is not true. A bunch of sources said that was the first time people started talking about ghosts, but it was clearly made up because Ruben had 17 children. Apparently his name was Jim Bob Dugger, actually. But none of them were buried there, so it couldn't have been one of his kids. Ruben does have a grandson that's buried there, so maybe it's his grandson. Why did they name the thing after him if he didn't even bury anyone there? I think he's buried there,

but originally they named it this because he owned the cemetery. Oh, he just owned it. It wasn't like he was using it for his own family. He just had the property. You also hope that someone who owns a cemetery likes it enough that he's gonna be buried in his own cemetery. Kind of says that he didn't trust a landlord

He's just like leasing it out to other people, but not using it for his own purposes. That's kind of weird Well, so oh wait, maybe he was like really rich and they buried people on his property Didn't they used to do that? Like oh, yeah buried them, all his 75 not-step children in the backyard. I don't know, he had his own cemetery. Well, so apparently he did have two sons. Okay, I'm confused because I'm telling you, the amount of sources, you'd think I'd get something fucking straight.

Can't do it. There are two sons. One source said it was Ruben's two sons, but that doesn't make sense when I finished the rest of the story here. So I'm going to go with another source that said it was just two sons that were here around Ruben's era. That there was a family who owned the land and they had two sons. When Ruben owned the land, he had 17 probably sons. So I don't think this is Ruben's family. Doesn't match.

But a family who owned the land at some point had two sons. And when the father died, it was unclear which of the sons would get the land. So they ended up dueling, literal shooting each other duel. Oh my God. To figure out who would get the property next, which I love that it's like, it's so picture perfect of like, how about one of us kills the other and whoever's alive

will get the land. Yeah, the other remaining son will bury the other in their cemetery that they own now. Like, did they bring a shovel to the duel just to get it started? They probably already had a hole ready to go. Like whoever ends up just roll them on in. That actually would be really convenient if you just dig the holes, stand at the foot of it and then both like, and then just fall right in.

You're done. So story has it that both brothers have perfect aim and shot each other and they both died. Whoops. So now they're both buried there and apparently, because this is maybe an urban legend, maybe it's true, but it's so old that they're... that they don't have any marked graves. Nobody even knows when this happened,

what their names were, but the story is, two of the original ghosts is the two brothers who killed themselves on the land, fighting to own the land. This is how men solve things. I don't know what to tell you. There could have been like any other way we did this, but. Yeah, and they went the worst possible way.

Yeah, it's like, well, look at that. Neither of you get the land. Wow, what a surprise. Anyway, one popular part of the cemetery's lore is that the land was once used by a fringe group called the Crabites. Ooh. They're called the Crabites because they were led by this guy named William Crab.

By a giant crab. By Mr. Crabs. By a big crab that crawled its way to Indiana. I mean, listen, if a giant crab told me what to do, I'd probably do it, so I get it. Well, careful what you say, because the Crabites were wild. So, Ruben Steppe, because the crab bites were wild.

So, Ruben Steppe, when he owned the cemetery, he apparently built a little church near the cemetery, and I'm guessing that was for people to go do their mourning or whatever it was. But he also said this church is available for any parishes who need a church. So like, if you're a local, as long as you're Christian, that was this whole thing, as long as you're Christian.

You can do sermons here or whatever. Yeah. And so I guess the crab bites heard that and went, great, let's wander on over there and see what this is all about. The crab bites are- I just picture like cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr cr have to crab walk. Yeah. You have to talk about a horror movie. Jesus. That's the scariest cult I ever heard of. You know, when I was in elementary school, there was a game where you had to, it was essentially dodge ball, but everyone had to be crab walking. And it was, I remember that game. God, that was just the worst. It was terrible. It's like, now

you're going to hit me with things with giant flying objects like with my tummy exposed. What forget it? If I had to crab walk today, I think all of my limbs would give out at the same time Yeah, the joke would be I would be laying on my back and I would not be like a crab that just got Beeped on Yeah, so Anyway, they're all crab walking to church and Ruben Steppe alleged, oh yeah, he built this church and now they're going there. So the crab bites are a religious sect that believed that Jesus was born under an apple tree. So I guess they conflated the

apple story and Jesus. They also believed that snake handling was necessary in a lot of rituals. Oh. They also believed that they themselves could resurrect the dead. No. And they believed that the earth was square, which is a new idea.

I have got to give them some props. This is very creative. Like as far as all the cults we've covered go, this one's pretty unique. I feel like they were around a writer's table and they're like, how do we zhuzh this up? This Bible's too boring. What do we do?

Yeah, you know how they used to say, when we were in TV school, they would say, oh, to pitch a show, you say, it's like this meets this. Or it's like this existing thing, except picture them as crabs you know I feel like they took a few pieces we're like imagine a world in which all these crabs can raise the dead you know can you picture it I can picture it imagine okay you're on an earth it is square it is square oh right and you might fall

off that's part of the thing that's part of it you know I got to give them a little credit. I mean, I don't know anything about flat earthers. We're giving them a lot of credit, and I'm all about it. I don't know anything about flat earthers. Maybe they also think the Earth is square. They must, right? Unless they think it's just like one continuous line.

Oh, don't even get me started, Em. They think it's like a whole plane. They think it's like this, and then there's like stuff underneath it, like a... Okay. Like a... Well... I don't even know how to explain it. Well, like a... Okay. Like a... Well... I don't even know how to explain it. Well, they're wrong. Okay, so...

Wait, what? But I could at least give the people who think the earth was square in this crab, I can kind of see where they were going, if they're taking the Bible a little too literally, because apparently in Revelations, it talks about the four corners of earth. So they were like, okay, so it's a square. So I, that one at least has like a really straightforward answer

versus having to like explain your, you know, semantic your way into your theories. Okay. So that's why they think they're at the square. And I mentioned the snake handling and rituals where we have not left that yet. So let's keep talking. William Crabb, he believed, I don't know where in the Bible this shows up, but it's gotta be somewhere. He believed that he should be, all the time, carrying around water moccasins, copperheads, and rattlesnakes.

Oh no. Which like, I'm just imagining one of those, like, those tropes of like the guy with the big parka who sells you watches from the jacket and he's just got like a bunch of moving snakes. A trench coat of snakes, yeah. Yeah, yeah, forget it. It is three crabs in a trench coat

and he's selling everyone snakes. This is like nothing good can come of any of this. But imagine if that crab with a trench coat full of snakes fell in love with a snake with a trench coat full of crabs. Oh my God. Me cute. Me cute. So he believed that with these snakes,

at any moment he should be able to demonstrate getting bitten by a snake. And he believed, quote, "'The man with sufficient faith in the Almighty is immune from even bites of venomous reptiles. So basically he thought if you believe hard enough, even if a venomous snake bites you, the snake will die and not you because you prayed hard enough and Christ will save you. And they would literally perform demonstrations where someone from

the congregation would get bitten by a fucking snake and they survived. So skeptics believe that the venomous fangs were removed prior to this, obviously. Yeah. Because don't actually try that at home. The snake will kill you no matter how hard you pray. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's kind of their whole thing.

Yeah, and so they would also, so that's the whole snake thing, that he just carried them around, and I guess if he felt like someone wasn't a big enough believer, he would just attack them with snakes, I don't know. Was it like the snakes were because of the Bible? Like snakes, Bible, apple tree,

is Jesus born under an apple tree? They were already like messing with that whole apple story, right? So the snake, the serpent would make sense, I guess. Yeah, it could just be like, oh, we've defeated the snake that Eve was too weak to resist. I don't know. I saw a video come up on my TikTok forever ago, so I don't remember which side of the context is.

I think it was a guy who was an atheist proving to a room of Christians that they weren't fully believing in God because he held up bleach and he was like, drink this right now and just pray hard. He kind of did the reverse of this where he was like, if you really believe that you're going to be saved, which obviously nobody like volunteered to drink the bleach. And he was like, yeah, because you know that you'll die and God won't save you, which is like, you know, that's neither here nor there. It just popped up on my TikTok. And this reminds me of like a reverse version of that. Yes, it sure does.

Where it's like, prove that you know God will save you and trials and tribulations. Let me put this snake on your arm. You're safe. Like, okay. So then that's the snake thing. They also would, of course, speak in tongues, because why not? I mean, if you've got the snakes, you kind of have to.

Dare I say, parcel tongue, right? So they also would dance in the cemetery nude. Okay, that I can approve of. That's fine. Can't have a fringe group without excessive orgies, which they were known for. Sure, oh wow, so they are really all over the fucking map because they're saying, oh, we're very religious,

we're so religious that like the snake can't hurt us. And then they're like, anyway, let's all fuck each other. Yeah, never. This is kind of a wild. Even the snakes were in like a nest together at some point. I mean, I imagine the snakes weren't even a concern, you know, just writhing around. They also apparently would eat animal sacrifices

from the cemetery, the works basically. They were exactly what you expect to find in the woods, I guess, for a religious group with no church and they have to borrow someone else's. So one woman even remembers her grandfather being paid back in the day to basically be like the security guard of the cemetery and he would chase them out mid orgy at night with a bullwhip.

Oh no, well they probably thought he was part of the orgy at first with that bullwhip and then they were like no no. They were like sticks and stones, yeah. So, so, uh, yeah, anyway, apparently there's that testimony of a guy being like, I remember watching them mid orgy and like, how are they getting to mid or like, you're a bad security guard if they're already naked and doing it. Just, you know, checking out the scene. It's not a break. Yeah. Taking a minute to like, minute to see where we're going with this before he decided to shut it down.

He's like, maybe I don't wanna be the bad guy here. Maybe I help you out. And then it got to be too much and he saw that trench coat of snakes come off and he went, oh my God. This can't stand, this can't stand, no. He said, we gotta get out of here. So at one point, this is separate from the security guard,

the actual police had to arrest 50 crab bites because they were obstructing a funeral, like a burial, because remember, they thought they could resurrect the dead. Oh, duh, I completely forgot about that part. So they went to some woman's funeral, and they were like, don't worry, family of the woman who's dead, we got this, we'll bring her back to life.

And they're probably like fucking with her body, and like the whole family had to watch this happen. And they're probably fucking, because they have organs there. And, uh, but so the whole family is like, get away from our like dead loved one we're trying to bury. That's bad.

Somehow there's an escalation. One of like the family members of the dead woman hit one of them, which honestly I would have too, so I don't blame that. But then it escalated into the crab bites saying that the family members tried to put dynamite in the crab bite church and like blow up their church. Which like, that sounds like you're mad at the family. So why are you trying to resurrect the dead? I don't understand.

Like why are you trying to do them a favor? Just like, oh, they said that that had happened before? Yeah, they were like, I don't know. I mean, I obviously it wasn't there, but apparently they accused some of the family members of the deceased person of like trying to blow up their church at one point. Oh, oh, God, what?

It sounds really messy. It sounds like a funeral I'd love to attend. I was gonna say, this sounds like something out of TLC, but yeah. If my funeral doesn't sound that dramatic, honestly, I'm gonna be so upset that there's a funeral. You know I've already got a handle, don't even worry. Whether I'm dead or alive,

I will create some sort of diversion or five. I mean a trench coat of snakes is probably good I'm not gonna lie. I did write that down in my notes of funeral for M on my people will certainly there will be carnage You know, that's all I really want It will be memorable I would at least like to be a funeral people don't forget. Again, bare minimum. Don't even worry about it. I've got it handled. Oh, so they get arrested because they're obviously being a nuisance to this fucking funeral.

A nuisance is one word for it. One word. And at court, when being like tried, or not being tried, sorry, when they're being questioned or interrogated, whatever the word is when they're at the stand, they start fucking screaming in tongues. Okay.

And that's what the judge said. So apparently they... Yes. Not this again. Oh God, not another one. So five of them, which is interesting, only five out of 50. So I don't know if they were like, I don't know what the story is there,

but five of them were guilty of rioting. That's what the charge was. Okay. And then shortly after, more crab bites had to be arrested at another funeral because they were annoying the sister of the deceased at this one. And basically, I guess, I'm sure she said something.

This is a small rural town at the time. I'm sure she had heard about them. She probably saw them at the last funeral and was like, get the fuck out of here, and was criticizing them in some way where it was very clear she did not agree with their beliefs. So then they all surrounded her.

Uh-oh. And this is the sister of the, imagine like Zandi's dead and at his funeral, now they just all surround you. You don't even get like peace for a minute. Yeah, what the fuck? And they start screaming in tongues all around her, like chanting over her as if they're gonna change her.

I don't totally understand. And especially if you're very religious, like this is horrifying, you know? Yes. Like if you're religious in a different way than these snake people. Like, oh my God, that would be so scary and upsetting and disrespectful.

So, and also it's on the worst day of your life. Yeah. You already don't have your wits with you to even stand strong in this. Right. So it probably almost made them feel emboldened that like you were breaking down. They probably thought they were actually doing like a work in you or something. Oh, gross. So anyway, however much of this, those are the two main stories I was able to find.

And by the way, that's a shout out to I think the site was called Paraholics, which I love that. Paraholics, which I love that. Paraholic, that sounds like us, yeah. They were the only source who really tried to go anywhere in depth with the crab bites, so I was really, anywhere. They know, they get it. Yeah, they get it, they get it.

They did not mention the trench coat of snakes quite like we do, but they did kinda get it. It's okay, they're on their way. We get it a little more. They get it almost as much. So people believe that because of all the crab bites, sorry, that was a derail with the crab bites, but it was too interesting to not mention. But they were known to go to the church on this property. They were known to be running away all the time from mid-orgie. They were being chased out of this cemetery.

They were doing all their rituals in the cemetery. They did their snake demonstrations in the cemetery. And so because of all this, people believe that their activities in the cemetery also left a paranormal residue causing activity now. Oh, a paranormal residue. That's good. Now that I wrote myself.

That's good. Yeah, I like that, paranormal residue. So some visitors to the cemetery still see people in robes roaming the property. Now I don't know if that means that, and not in a ghost way, like they see people in robes. Oh, oh, oh, I was thinking the snake people, okay. Maybe, can you imagine a ghost where he just throws a snake out of his pocket?

Like does the snake, I know we've discussed this before, is the snake also a ghost? Does he find living snakes? Is the trench coat a ghost? Do trench coats have souls? I don't know. Does trench coat, help me. Now I've lost the plot aggressively.

So some have, yeah, so people walk around in robes. I'm assuming that they're real people because people have like reported these people in robes like following them home. Very creepy. Oh, come on. This is where I stand firmly in the fact that I would rather have a ghost almost follow me home than like a man. I mean, man or bear. Man or bear or ghost. I'm gonna pick the ghost. Yeah, same. Out of all three, I'm gonna pick the ghost, quite frankly. This is why also I think your side is always scarier because yours is actual true crime.

If there's a man in a robe and I know he's a ghost, I'm a lot less scared than if it's just a man in a robe. Exactly, it's like we have some built-in protections we can use, but with a real person, uh-oh. Yeah, yeah. The clock's ticking. Well, so people spot folks in robes roaming around. Apparently they will hiss at you because now they think they're snakes.

I don't fucking understand. Ew, are they like pranking you? That's so annoying. If they're like teenagers trying to be like, trying to scare people. I hope so. I hope so too. That would be much better than someone really thinking they're a snake and you be like, trying to scare people. I hope so. That would be much better than someone really thinking they're a snake and you're alone in the woods with them. Now in the hierarchy, yeah, the teenager,

he's up top, because I think I can take him. Yeah, somehow teenagers are all of a sudden less scary for a moment. Just for one brief moment. They have followed people on the trail. Apparently, they have just approached people and said that they're going to conjure dark spirits. People have seen people in robes and then heard

chanting. So it's kind of assumed that either they're crab-eyed fans or maybe they're their own sect, their own fringe group, you know? So, or maybe they're honestly like, I know I'm like throwing a lot of shade, but now let me do like the light side of it. Maybe they're just a little unstable, but they're like also just doing their own little, I don't know, witchcraft or something. I don't know. I don't know what they're doing. So...

Yeah, there's no way to know. Maybe they don't have bad intentions. Well, I don't know. Maybe they just like to hiss at people, leave them alone, okay? Leave them alone. Somehow less scary people who are seen here are the woman in white, because of course, and are a woman in white because of course,

and the woman in black because of course. Oh my god, they're both? Wow. I saw someone DM'd me and they were like, can you stop saying that there's always a woman in black in stories? And I was like, okay, then tell me a story where I have a... Why would somebody say that? I think they think I'm making it up.

I don't know. But they were like, man, it's so overdone. Or they're the DM. It said something along the lines of like, your stories are all starting to sound the same. And I'm like, it's ghosts, babe. What do you want me to do? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, wow.

I don't know what to tell you. I'm sorry that they're not as, let me call heaven and tell them to get more interesting for you. Listen, are the snakes doing it for you, my friend? Whoever you are. The snakes have got to do it if nothing else sorry. Are the snakes doing it for you, my friend? Whoever you are, the snakes have got to do it if nothing else can.

If we really have an original story. And I was like, did you forget that I'm not writing these stories? I don't know. It's so stupid. Okay. So anyway, sorry to whoever that person was, but there's another woman in black to get over it. Oh no.

There's a woman in white and a woman in black. The woman in white is less known. She has like one little blip on the radar, and then the woman in black is the real showstopper here. The star, okay. So the woman in white is often seen wandering through the cemetery, but very soon she morphs into something

much darker and scarier. And then it kind of just ends there. There should be more information on that, through the cemetery, but very soon she morphs into something much darker and scarier. And then it kind of just ends there. There should be more information on that, but only two or three sources even mention her and they were all vague. But I think that's again, because the woman in black is so popular,

everyone's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, let's mention her and now we don't have to anymore. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Check mark, move on. So woman in black, most common spirit in the cemetery, many, many versions of her story. Like many, many. Actually, I found one website

where they just documented every single variation of her story they could find, and they got to like almost 30. Oh, wow. So I'm not gonna go through all of them because I don't wanna to bore anybody, but I'll definitely cover it enough. So when approached, apparently she will either disappear or run away.

She's also seen walking by the trees and then fading away on her own, whether or not you approach her. Others have seen her bending over, digging as if she's digging a grave or exhuming a body. Yep. With her hands. Ooh, that's creepy. And many report hearing her crying or humming while holding a baby. Oh no. The main gist of this, or gist as Christine shut up! Is that she is exhuming her baby

and then holds it and hums to it. Oh, that's dark. Yeah, that's kind of the main thread of the Woman in Black. In fact, her digging, oh, I just said it, in fact, her digging is said to be her exhuming her baby and the grave she's often seen by, or digging or crying by,

is all the way at the back of the cemetery if you wanted to see the grave yourself. And a lot of people do. Apparently this baby's grave that she is always near has become the most popular grave of the cemetery because people will leave a bunch of toys and trinkets for the baby. Oh wow.

So there is an actual grave of a baby there. Yes. And the grave has the name Baby Lester 1937 on it. Oh. And so everyone thinks immediately, oh, that Lester must be her baby. Sad. But apparently, oh, and one person actually got a picture

of this like shadowy figure. And she's like in a dark veil. She's like, it looks like a real woman mourning. It's just super creepy. But anyway, the baby, everyone says, oh, because it says baby Lester and she's allegedly digging up this baby and holding the baby. She must be the mom. But Lester isn't even the name of the baby. The baby's name was Paul Lester and he was born stillborn. And no one will, if you're going off of like historical fact

of this grave, this woman that everyone's seeing must not be Paul Lester's mom, because Paul Lester's mom died in 2007 at 85 years old. So there's, if the mom, if the mom is the woman in black, everyone's been seeing since the 50s. Right, right, right. Okay, fair. She's like, wait a minute, that's my child's grave and I'm alive.

Okay, got it, got it, got it. And by the way, the mom, because she was around until 2007, she has heard about this very popular lore in Indiana that Baby Lester's grave is a popular haunting ground and it's like her dead baby's grave. That's terrible. That would feel so invasive and awful. She has said that the urban legend bothers her.

Yeah. Which how could it not? No, yeah. I do think, I'm speaking for her and that's like so fucked up, but I will say like if this were the case for me, I'd be happy that at least like the grave is being visited and like there's like trinkets and toys and like people are paying homage to my kid. But like at the same time- As long as they're not like pulling Ouija boards out and stuff,

you know some people treat it disrespectfully probably. Or even the fucking crab bites and doing some weird orgy on my baby's grave. Or rituals, oh god, yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Oh no, Em! I was, the computer read it as a thumbs up

as I was talking about orgies on a dead baby's grave. Yeah, Em's computer was like, we got it. Hold on, don't worry. We will nail it. We're gonna put thumbs up. Orgies on a dead baby's grave, yay. Yeah, fireworks, celebrate. Oh, God, that was bad timing.

Okay, so. Read the fucking room, Apple. Jesus. So where were we? Okay. So baby Lester, it's prob, he's, she's probably not the mom because baby Lester's actual mom has said, I'm right fucking here and also stop doing what you're doing. So then people are like, well, maybe it's not baby Lester.

Maybe we're just associating a woman we see holding a baby next to a baby's grave. We're assuming that they're the same baby, but maybe there's another baby grave nearby. Right. And there are a lot of babies and children buried in this area. So for all we know with like blueprint theory,

maybe she's just sitting there holding her baby and it has nothing to do with that grave. Or it could have nothing to do with any of the baby graves. And she could, in this residual moment we're all seeing, she could be holding her baby, grieving her husband or grieving another child. So. Oh, interesting.

Yeah, who knows? So we don't really know what her deal is, but she's very heavily associated with the baby Lester grave. Okay. And she's also often seen sitting on this tree stump that has over time kind of taken the form of a chair. I think because so many people have sat in it, it just kind of has morphed into that. Oh, weird. It has somehow become known as the Warlock Chair.

Oh. And I think that's because I remember I told you there's a lot of variations to the woman in black. Some of the stories are that she's a witch. And so I think the warlock chair is because she was a witch sitting in the chair. I don't totally, there was no origin story to the warlock chair. I wonder if it just like looks like a throne almost and people are like, oh, it's a warlock chair. That sounds creepy.

That's what I thought too. And I'm hoping I just saw like not the best angle of it, but a picture I saw. It literally just looks like a fucking tree stump. Like, I don't totally... I don't know what's going on there, but people are calling it the warlock chair, maybe because people go out there and do rituals, and that's where, like, the head warlock sits. I don't totally know.

Yeah, I don't know either. At any rate, because she is seen sitting in the chair, on the tree stump, if you sit on the tree stump, apparently don't know either. At any rate, because she is seen sitting in the chair, on the tree stump, if you sit on the tree stump, apparently she will curse you and you will die a year from today. So- A year from today?

Oh God, that's rude. So get ready, don't sit in the tree stump unless you're ready. Some people have said it only happens if you're sitting there under a full moon, but also it's illegal to be out there after dark. So if you're sitting there under a full moon, but also it's illegal to be out there after dark. So if you're out there during a full moon sitting at a warlock chair, you're probably already there for something nefarious. So, or, or you're out there breaking

rules anyway. So I can't really do anything to stop you. It's like, Oh, why are you breaking the rules? Cause I want to die in one year from a curse. Like really? Why don't you go home and watch a movie? Touch some grass, girl. Touch some grass, but not in this cemetery, it's closed. Well, fun fact, the warlock chair has either been destroyed or removed or the stump was removed in recent years. So it's no longer there,

but people still see the haunting of the stump because they still see the black, the woman in black, not the black woman, Jesus Christ. People still see the woman in black sitting on the stump because they still see the woman in black, not the black woman, Jesus Christ, people still see the woman in black sitting on the stump. So the stump now is a ghost too? My God, it's like, I can't keep up with all this. I'm kind of wondering like, is there anything that can't be a ghost?

I know, I know. At this point, I can't think of a one. Other than this version, like I said earlier, the woman in black, she might be mourning a different family member instead of this baby. So of the, in the baby camp of the, she's there mourning a baby, there are several stories. One of them being that she was so riled with grief

about burying her baby that every night until she died, she would go out there and unbury her baby to hold it and then rebury it and just kept doing that over and over. And that's why we now see the residual haunting. People also say that she would just sit on the stump and talk to her baby every time after it was buried. People say that she died with the baby. Like there's so many versions of her and this baby.

Then there's versions of her about a teenage girl, a teenage daughter. And some of them get fucking extreme. One is like her daughter was decapitated and now she's like trying to help find her daughter's head. What? Some are that her husband died in a quarry accident and so now she goes with her baby

to say goodbye to her husband. Some of so now she goes with her baby to say goodbye to her husband. Some of them are that it's her baby and her husband who died. I mean, think of any version you can and it's probably happened. Dear Lord. One of the more popular or I guess more newer stories, because this one happened around like the 50s, 60s, 70s. This story came out when like teenagers all started getting their own cars and they were finding little tuckaway areas to go drink and be bad teenagers and smooch and smooch. And one of the stories

that came out around then was that the woman in black was mourning her daughter, who was one of those kids who hung out in the cemetery, doing bad things. And then she got drunk and sped home and got in a car crash. And now her ghost, or now her body's buried there and her mom goes to mourn her.

So I think that was probably just the teenagers being like, yeah, some girl died here one time, because like she was so, she was so bad. No, that's the parents being like, no, she got, she died because she was doing bad things in the totally right Do you want to be that girl who died in the car crash? You're totally right? Yeah, it's like I knew a friend She died. Oh, I guess one girl she died. Yeah, she died. Don't do her don't do what she did cuz she died She did so yeah, like I said, the story came out when our parents would have been kids. And it was probably just as an urban legend.

That one's probably the least believable because it sounds like something one of the teenagers or their parents made up. Yeah. Although it could be real, but the only major, I'm sure there were car accidents going on around this area. But also remember this is in the thick of a forest. There's no fucking cars around there. So yeah. Yeah. And also like, isn in the thick of a forest. There's no fucking cars around there. So.

Yeah, yeah. And also like, isn't she holding a baby? Or am I like. Yeah, but again, some of the stories are that she brought the baby with them to mourn the other sibling or the other kid that she had. Oh, got it. She brought a baby.

Oh, I understand. Okay, okay. Insert a woman holding a baby crying and then put any story to it and someone has come up with it. And the baby's just there sometimes. Sometimes the baby's just there. Sometimes she's there mourning the baby, which is why baby Lester's grave is such a big deal.

I see. Okay. But sometimes she's mourning her husband, you know, so it could be anything. Nobody knows. And during this 50, 60, 70s period is when the cemetery became a big hangout spot. Because again, kids were getting all their own cars and they were looking for lovers lanes. And that because also it was such a remote, isolated, secluded area, it was perfect to go like run away and like do whatever you want. So that's when the story started really coming out. Even though they say the cemetery's been haunted

since the 1800s, which does seem to be true with ghosts of like the two brothers who had a duel, things like that. Apparently there were probably ghosts the entire time, but it didn't really get popularized until more kids were there to spread stories about how dangerous it was and why they were there. It's like probably like the slaughter pen

was not as haunted to most people until I started screaming about it. Until Em's voice rose above the hustle and bustle, yes. Yes, and then the woman in black, regardless of who she's mourning over, people still see this ghost either crying, they see her just sitting in the chair sometimes, they, and again,

the people that she's mourning could be anyone from her husband, her baby, her kid, a friend, who fucking knows. One guy even states that this woman in black approached him and said, my baby is buried here. Um, which sounds like, but that sounds like to me, like one of my friends who was like, yeah, I saw her. She talked to me. And like, no, you didn't. Yeah, she even spoke to me, like, you know, like overdoing it to try and sell it.

It's like, I believe you less now. Another version is that, you know that story about like someone with a hook, like for a hand, trying to like open the car door. There's literally a version of that where she has a hook for a hand trying to open the car door. There's literally a version of that where she has a hook for a hand and she is there. No way, come on, now you guys are trying too hard. Anything is possible.

I mean, I feel like in the 70s, that was when the hook story happened, right? So you could probably mesh those together. You're right, because it is such a lovers laid, like a warning story. Yes. The most outlandish one I heard about her like a warning story, you know? Oh my God. The most outlandish one I heard about her

was that she was a witch and the local kids hanged her dog because she was a witch. And so she cursed the people who killed her dog and now she roams the ground waiting for them to come back. That was the wildest one I heard probably. Whoa, I mean, okay. And apparently the dog was a German Shepherd. So because of that, a German Shepherd is often

also said to be seen with her or like a wolf like dog is said to be seen with her. This dog has also not true. I hope not too. But also most of the upsetting ones are not true. I hope not too. But also most of the upsetting ones are not true, but you know, also like are there are there wolves or coyotes or anything in a not enough forest? Not in a forest in a forest? No, I can't. I never know what animals go with which type of foliage. Where else would they go? Well, because like we have coyotes in the mountains. So I don't know. I'm trying to justify why someone would see a dog out there. I mean, there's definitely, we have, we like, I grew up in the woods and there are definitely coyotes and I don't know about wolves out here, but there are definitely lots of coyotes.

I think I feel like coyotes nowadays are everywhere. So I don't know. I don't know about wolves. Well, people claim to see dogs out in the woods, which if this is an area for, I should have looked that up. I'm only having the thought now, but people see dogs out in the woods and they claim that this is the dog that she lost. But other people say if they see a glowing dog

who only sits by Lester's grave, like protecting the baby, which is very sweet. Oh my. In some versions, the woman in black was a crabite, and in others, her name was Anna, which I think they're trying to push her into more historically accurate stories, because there is an Anna buried on the property

who did lose a child. So I think they're trying to be like, oh, well, she must be Anna. It matches up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then this stump, AKA the warlock's chair, that also has its own variation. So then think of like 30 versions of woman in black,

30 versions of the stump, and then every version of those combined. It's like any- Yeah, this is, it's just like a never ending. Yeah, so as for the stump, it was either struck by lightning and that's how it got its chair form. Someone literally created the chair,

like carved it out themselves. Some say that the woman in black carved it herself so she could sit next to her baby's grave. Some say this stump is where she died, which is why it's haunted. Like she died while sitting there, maybe of a heart attack or something. There's one story where like a logger,

like a final destination movie, a log off a truck hit him while he was sitting on the stump and he died and that's why it's haunted. So there's a lot of versions as to why that's haunted. Some people say that it's the reason why grass doesn't grow in the area when really it's probably people walking around so often that it just kind of keeps the dirt there. But no, I still think like I wouldn't want to sit in that.

I'm still one of those people where like if you put enough energy on something, it's yeah. Yeah, no, I don't play around with that either. I'm with you. I'm laughing about it, but I also wouldn't fucking sit in it. So no, and I don't recommend anyone try it. Especially if there's a chance that you're going to die a year, a calendar year from that day. I don't want that on my conscience.

Hell no. All these stories really started coming out in the 50s or 70s, like I said, when work had started showing up and people still love to visit to see if anything paranormal happens. I don't know if this is true, but it looked like there were some opportunities for like tours, but it's in the middle of a fucking forest. I think people kind of create their own like self guided tours. Okay, just follow the crab. Follow the river of snakes. Yeah. But people say that I did see a lot of accounts on here that said that they didn't really feel anything But it was also because it was during the day and they were with their group of friends

So maybe that's why they didn't feel anything But there are some people who are like this place is so fucking creepy and there's no way you can't feel like you're being Followed and the the weird remoteness and like the isolation of this area makes it feel like it's extra silent and eerie and uncanny makes it feel like it's extra silent and eerie and uncanny. But people hear howling, they hear chanting, they hear crying from nowhere and everywhere all at once, which I hate. So it's like in your own head, you can hear it.

People feel watched, they hear footsteps walking past them, they hear leaves rustling like someone's behind them. They see orbs and mists, they see shadowy figures darting around and peeking around the trees. There's red glowing that is seen on camera as if they're eyes.

Electronics will malfunction. There's cold spots. People hear voices talking in the trees and they smell oddly sweet odors, which sometimes can smell good like perfume, but sometimes bad, like something rancid like death. And then this is my last note, and it kind of goes for the entire forest,

but this area specifically is weirdly also known for UFO and Sasquatch sightings. And I don't know if that's because it was already known as like a hotspot, so people just kind of started. Like, I mean, it sounds like everyone's talking on stories to this place like oh and another thing there's a hook with it you know adding adding shit to the story snakes and crabs and hooks and ghosts yeah so I don't know much about the UFO sighting except that people see things but I'm sure if you're looking up in

the skies you know I'm sure you can see stuff. But the Sasquatch sightings are the more interesting one because the amount of Bigfoot sightings in this area literally got this forest on Finding Bigfoot, like on the TV show, Finding Bigfoot. Shut up. It's famous. This area is where most of Indiana's Bigfoot sightings are. Apparently, one source said that there were eight sightings in 2015 alone.

Whoa. Which kind of doesn't sound like a lot, but I guess in Bigfoot world, it's a lot. It does sound like a lot to me, especially in one area, right? That's true, yeah. Especially if they were different people. I will say the forest is 24,000 acres. So a lot of opportunity for isolated hikers to start seeing and hearing things. OK. And this is not me

poo pooing on like hikers seeing shit in the woods. That's half the reason I don't want to be in the woods. Like, I believe it. I fucking believe it. Yeah, trust me, if anyone's going to believe you, it's them. But I also wonder if the number is heightened because people are having like, kind of not mirages, but like that kind of like the like, like mental games are happening when you're in the woods long enough, you know?

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And if you're already scared, like you're there to get scared, and you're there to like, to like look for something scary, you're probably primed for it. I guarantee you if I went into the cemetery in the middle of the forest and the sun was starting to set, I would fucking hear something. You would see Bigfoot within a matter of moments you would call me and tell me you saw Bigfoot. I don't doubt it for a second. Well, so anyway,

I just wanted to at least put it out there that this place is very well known for Bigfoot sightings too. So it's in the UFO sighting. So if you're into ghosts, if you're into aliens, or if you're into cryptids or something for everyone over there, there that this place is very well known for Bigfoot sightings too. So it's in the UFO sighting. So if you're into ghosts, if you're into aliens, or if you're into cryptids or something for everyone over there. Maybe it just happens to be in one of those weird ley lines or thin spots, you know? Like one of the dots on a triangle. Yeah, yeah. But anyway, nowadays the Step Cemetery is being preserved by the Indiana Pioneer Cemetery's Restoration Project, which it bothers me when a name that long doesn't have an acronym.

I'm so annoyed already. I tried it in my head too. I was like, seriously, guys? IPCRP, the IP crap. So whatever. And a lot of people still go, like I said, for the spookiness, but most often they leave trinkets behind for Lester. They're also probably there for some nefarious things, which I am not totally against sometimes.

I'm into a good creepy little moment. Maybe no orgies on my end, at least. Maybe no defacing property or having an orgy, but other than that, free game. Other than that, do what you want. Anyway, beware that it's the Step Cemetery. Very good, Em. Thank you. I know you don't need like my approval, but very, very nice story. I appreciate approval. I'm not going to say don't do that. You know, that doesn't sound like you. Nice. I agree with you. We don't do a lot of cemeteries. So it's kind of, and I, for one,

always love the history of these stories. So I kind of love when you do something like this, where there's a story behind it too. Well, thank you. These crab bites. I wish there was more of like a story story, you know, where like I could be like- I can't get over the crab bites, that's insane.

That's I think the reason why I bring in so many of those little like quick deep dives because We're shallow dives. I guess I don't really know but Because I feel like mines always like so Here this year this happened and then this happened this year. Yeah, they're like it feels a little too. I don't know It just doesn't feel like yours has like a story to it. But then again yours I feel like yours has like a story to it, but then again, yours like factually happened and I'm just pulling off,

I'm pulling like two or three bullet points from each website. Like it's the best I can do. Well and a lot of yours are so much older, like we don't necessarily have the sources to say what happened. Like a lot of mine happened in the current age and a lot of yours happened 200 years ago

in a rural area where they weren't keeping records. Yeah, and by the way, you have, this is a, whatever, this is a DM I got years ago that I still think about. But- Oh no. Well, they were just saying, they said something like, oh, like, they were asking how many sources I have. Like, and it's like, it always depends.

Cause like, Christine has court documents you have Testimonies you have witness testimonies you have like like police files you have like article 20 documentaries about it I have sometimes two blogs about an alien like I don't like I like the blog like angel fire websites like not even Yes, one of these was literally an angel fire. Yeah, like there's only so much that I'm not even knocking I'm just saying that's how it goes with your stories, but someone said like oh Christine sources are better I'm like Christine sources are real. What are you talking? Literally, that's the thing that drives me crazy when people are like, yeah, I agree with you. I agree with you Anyway, I got a comment the other day too about that and did you yeah, it was not very nice

Now I don't even open it. They were like, it's time to shut down your podcast. I was like, okay. No, well, okay. No, I was like, well, there's, I've somehow been able to find enough information on almost 400 topics. So I'm doing the best I can folks.

I think you're nailing it. Okay, so whatever. I'm doing the best I can with angelfireand think you're nailing it, okay? So whatever. I'm doing the best I can with angelfire and fandom.com, because sometimes that's all I get. And Zach Bagans will sometimes pepper in a few fun little cut scenes we can throw in. I know. Well, I was watching a bunch of... Because I've also used YouTube quite a lot, but sometimes it's really like, I'm going

to go ghost hunting in this location. But then it's like, it's just someone who obviously filmed themselves going ghost hunting and then like nothing really happened. So I'm like, well, do I talk about it or not? I don't know. Right, right, right. And if they're not adding anything to the history. Yeah. Anyway, I'm glad because most of the time when I cover, I brought all this up just to say, I would like to cover more cemeteries, but I really don't get a lot of meat from too many. So this, I was excited't get a lot of meat from too many. So this, I was excited that there was actually a cemetery

with enough stuff. I looked up, I don't know, I don't remember when I started these notes. I looked up unheard of locations. I don't wanna, like I was trying to find a place like, I don't know, that not everyone's covered. That's like below the radar, yeah. And usually when I look that up, it's also like, good luck.

You're not going to find enough information. This is what I found. I was like so excited to like do a cemetery. So I love it. I mean, it's not if it's near Bloomington. It's only a couple of hours from me. You know, is it really? Yeah, we're creating our own little you can go sit on the stump and let me know how it goes. Yeah. Bloomington, I think that's where Indiana University is, right?

So if you guys are out there and you know about this stump, tell us the deeps. I would like to think there's some cool, quirky philosopher professor who makes them go out and hang out in the cemetery on a field trip. Like a psych professor, he's like, this is how your brain tricks you into thinking you see like a ghost or something.

I had one, his name was Dr. Hart. He was really ruthless about how ghosts don't exist and it's all in your brain. Yeah. I mean, it's literally the class was called why people believe weird things and it was just. LOL. And it was just all the ways that your brain tricks you.

That class must be fucking packed to the gills nowadays. It was my senior, it was my senior sem. Oh that's interesting. No he um, he, he did a, I gotta say he did a good job like for a skeptic. He set all the right points but him and I always duked it out on whether or not, like who was telling the truth. And he was the one who let me bring in ghost hunting equipment as one of my final exams. I still think about that. And then, sorry, last thing I'll say too, we used to have this thing, they got rid of it at CNU, but it was called the Wise Woods. Have I talked about these before? No.

Oh, I love the Wise Woods. I don't know why they got rid of it. It was probably one of the worst things they ever did construction wise. It was literally a big piece, like just a, I don't know how big it was, but a big chunk of land that was still old school woods that had never been touched. And it was in the center of the property. So they'd built around it and it was just like this one patch that they left as woods. Cool. And, and they, and philosophy teachers would take the kids out on really good days and they had

like benches out there and everything and a podium. So it kind of looked a little churchy. The philosophy teachers would take the kids out on really good days and they had like benches out there and everything and a podium. So it kind of looked a little churchy. I don't think it was supposed to. It was supposed to be like a lecture hall outside. Like a little, yeah, like a little peaceful place in the woods. And they would teach like meditation and stuff out there. Oh, that's so cool.

I remember taking a class out there and I just remember being like, wow, this is like the cool college thing everyone's talking about. Yeah, that is. That feels like something out of a TV show. And then the next year they got rid of the Wise Woods. Oh man. And ironically put, I think the philosophy building or the psychology building or something. That guy was like, I'm tearing it down, that one professor.

Anyway. Okay. I'm done rambling, Christine. It's your turn to ramble. Can I go pee real quick? Yeah. Let me take a big swig of my gallon. All right. So I have a story for you today. This is kind of a unique one in that there are some professional athletes involved.

Oh, this feels like when I cover, back when I covered the Pfister and it was like all the Milwaukee Brewers are like scared to stay there. It's everybody who flies in to play the Milwaukee Brewers. They put them up in that hotel to scare them. And they think Mr. Pfister, who was a big Brewers fan is like trying to scare them so they'll be too tired to play well. And some of them refuse to stay there now,

which cracks me up. Yeah. Anyway, yeah, so it's not quite that, but I don't often venture into the world of professional sports for obvious reasons. Are the Olympics getting to you? Is that why? That might be subconsciously why. I hadn't actually put that together, but it could be.

Okay. why. I hadn't actually put that together, but it could be. This is the story of Sally McNeil. I imagine you don't recognize the name. I didn't either, but I bet some of our listeners will be like, huh, that sounds familiar. Sally McNeil, she was born in Allentown, Pennsylvania in 1960. As far as her childhood goes, her biological father left when she was really young and was violent in the home and had abused her mother, had even kicked her mother in the stomach while she was pregnant with Sally. Oh, shit. Yeah.

So Sally had kind of a tumultuous upbringing. Her mother remarried when Sally was three and the couple had two more children together who became Sally's half sisters. And this is when it becomes an almost Cinderella story because Sally was not a favorite, that's a quote, in her own home. Her parents, especially her stepfather, openly preferred his biological daughters over Sally and her brother. And so they got basically the short end of the stick. Sally later recalled that even though they were younger than her, her sisters always got new clothes and special treatment. And she was just kind of cast aside.

Like I mean, very Cinderella, right? Like very cliche. Like the dad and step, or the mom and stepdad in this scenario neglected the first two children. In ninth grade, she was grounded for months after her parents discovered that she was dating a boy who was black. Oh boy. So they just in general were not great people, were very horrible to Sally and her brother. And as a way to cope with this, she turned to athletics. And that is where she started to shine.

So her school didn't have a cross-country track team for girls, so instead she joined the boys team. And even though she was the only girl on the boys team, she was also the only person on the team to qualify to compete at a state level. She also placed in many competitions as a highly skilled competitive diver. So she was also very good at diving to the point that she could have probably made Olympic

level if she wanted to. Oh, wow. Oh my God. Yeah. She was very, very good. She was like an athletic star in high school, but she didn't have the money necessary to pursue coaching and those kind of opportunities. And so instead she enrolled in state college and decided to become a gym teacher.

But right before she graduated, one semester before graduation, she ran out of money. And with nowhere else to live, she followed her brother's footsteps and enrolled in the Marine Corps. And when she's in the Marine Corps, she meets this guy named Tony Loudon in 1982, and they start dating. And she soon falls pregnant with their first child, Tony proposes, and they have a daughter named Shantina. Now, Shantina was born with light eyes and blonde hair.

And I say that because Tony, who was black, didn't believe Shantina was his child until they had a second child named John Jr. who was born with the same light features. And that's almost like a foreshadowing moment because let me just spoil it that he also does not treat her very well. He became violent and abusive once they were married,

neighbors on base, and remember they're on a military base. So neighbors are often hearing domestic violence, military police have to be called repeatedly. And so when Sally receives orders to transfer across the country to Camp Pendleton in California, she says, you know what, this is where I cut ties. I'm filing for divorce and we're done. We're done. We're done. We're done. We're done, you're done.

During her custody battle with Tony though, Sally was pregnant with a third child whom she then placed for adoption. And as this custody battle wore on, Sally ultimately won custody of Shantina and John. The divorce was finalized in 87. And she was very excited to start a whole new life with her kids thousands of miles away from everything she had known. And it was there in California that she was introduced

to the world of bodybuilding. Ooh, okay. I know. And that also had to be probably really empowering if you're like, if you come from like a shitty guy and you just dated a shitty guy. if you're like, if you come from like a shitty guy and you just dated a shitty guy or you were married to a shitty guy. Yeah, yeah. And now you can build your own strength. And that probably was part of it. So I feel like when we picture bodybuilders,

it is like a big like eighties, nineties. Do you have that same? Yeah, I totally Arnold Schwarzenegger, Venice, Muscle Beach. Exactly, the Muscle Beach type thing, 100%. And so it even in my, says Arnold Schwarzenegger is one of the reasons that this became such a phenomenon back in the 70s, 80s.

And when women began competing, initially it was more like a beauty pageant, right? Like they'd wear swimsuits and it was like, oh, they have lean muscle and like it's about how good they look. But pretty soon women focused on extreme muscle gain kind of like the men had been doing. And Sally was one of these women where she was focusing on working out every single day. And while she excelled in the gym, her military career

unfortunately was faltering. And that's because she had risen through the ranks to become a sergeant, but she was noted over and over for aggressive behavior and angry outbursts, behavior which reportedly eventually led to her demotion in the military. Was she on steroids for the body building? She sure was. She sure was. Okay.

Yeah, yes. They ended up ultimately, we'll get to the actual crime portion of this, but it was very much proven that she was on steroids, yes. She's pushing on, even though her military career is kind of falling apart, she's doing great in the bodybuilding world. In 1987, a friend introduces her to this guy named Ray McNeil. Now, Ray was also a sergeant and a bodybuilder. So they had a whole lot in common. They're basically their two main hobbies in life. They have in common. And he had recently returned from

being stationed in Okinawa. And Sally described it as lust at first sight. Okay, girl. Yeah, whoa. So she and Ray immediately clicked and she felt that this gets me because this sentence, she, okay, Sally said it was lust at first sight. She and Ray immediately clicked and she felt he would make a good stepfather

for Shantina and John. And I'm like, why? Because he was sexy? Like, I don't know. I don't know. I mean, that must've been something else about him that she liked. There must've been something going on.

I don't know. I have no idea, but that's a... It's just like the transition from lust at first sight to, and he'd make a great dad. It's like... Yeah, those two things don't usually go hand in hand. Right? In terms of like first fantasies.

First, yeah, exactly. In terms of like love at first sight. I just was surprised by that. But the two of them did immediately click and they opened up to each other really quickly. According to Sally, Ray had also endured quite a bit of trauma in childhood. He was sexually abused by another boy in the house where he grew up. And so, you know, he had a lot of his own demons and she and Ray related to each other over things in life,

good, bad, their trauma, their bodybuilding, their struggles with their jobs. And they fell in love and got married after just two months of dating. So pretty soon they're like this power couple, right? They start competing together in bodybuilding competitions. They become like the most famous couple in the bodybuilding scene.

And Shantina and John said that it could sometimes be difficult to go places with their parents because they're already mixed race children of an interracial couple in the eighties. And now their mom and stepdad are running around like in these massive you know swole bodies and almost putting like there there you can't be discreet in public right like the two of them look like those classic bodybuilders you picture when you think of like 80s bodybuilding they're like

definitely like there's no hiding it. That's not something you can really physically hide either like if you're if the whole thing is you are visually getting bigger like you can't hide visually they're getting bigger. Exactly that's a point and on top of that even though you're you're totally right like you can't even really hide it not only that they wore clothes, like tiny little things to show off their muscles, right? So they're wearing- Well, it was Spandex era, right?

Spandex, so they're wearing like those tiny little like tank tops and stuff. And then these poor kids who are like in middle school probably are just like, mom, come on. Like it's probably so embarrassed, which, you know, I mean, I'm not blaming the parents for that, I'm just saying, I imagine it's hard, I mean, I'm not blaming the parents for that. I'm just saying, I imagine it's hard.

At 12, I would have had a problem with it. I was embarrassed that my mom had an accent, right? Like imagine, like, which I know is fucked up, right? Looking back, but as a kid, I was like, I just don't want anyone to draw attention to us, you know? And so imagine, like, they would go places and not only would they wear like teeny tiny clothes, they would pose and flex when the public was looking and people would clap and like take pictures. Yeah, I would have I would have had a full blown breakdown as a 12 year old or a kid

or however old. It's so embarrassing as a teenager. Yeah, it's so embarrassing. But the children both really loved and were proud of their parents. So that aside, like it to be clear, they did love their parents. They called Ray dad. They considered him their dad. Hey, she was right then. He makes a great step then. Well, she was... Oh, okay. Well, not really.

But yeah, they loved him for a bit and for a minute seemed like maybe he would be a great stepdad. They would tag along at bodybuilding competitions and Sally and Ray even both won the Armed Forces bodybuilding competition and sportscasters were like all about them right like well talk about a literal power couple yes exactly like literally exactly and the Brangelina of muscles the Angelina the Arnold the the I guess I don't even know who the Arnold Schwarzenegger I I don't know. I'll think about it. Transitioning from amateur to professional bodybuilding apparently is a very difficult

feat, but very few people can make that leap. But apparently Sally and Ray were ready to do it and the world was cheering them on. So when Sally's military contract expired because of her behavioral record, she was not allowed to reenlist. And Ray decided he also wasn't going to reenlist because he wanted to focus on bodybuilding. Apparently, I guess I shouldn't be surprised by this, but amateur bodybuilding is a pretty big investment.

You need foods, I mean, food alone to feed your calorie intake. Supplements, gym memberships. Apparently they spend a lot of time at Gold's Gym, which really tracks. The very eighties. Yeah, very, very. Coaching, travel, entry fees for these competitions. And I imagine a lot of body oil that's not listed,

but I can only imagine how much body oil you would need. And then like the laundry bills of like cleaning the body oil off of all your stuff. Anyway, that's where my brain goes, but. Sally needed to find a way to support herself and Ray and the kids. So because she had dropped her military career or was dropped, I guess, by her military career,

she began wrestling professionally in home videos, almost, that were essentially fetish content. Oh, no, okay. So it was like, she would wrestle with, there'd be these choreographed wrestling matches with average men whom she would dominate in these like very like physical ways. And that was sort of like a sexual fetish.

And there were no sexual activities being done in the video. Like there was no, there wasn't porn involved in making the videos, but I guess this was kind of. Did she know what was going on? As fetch. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So she knew it was like, it was kind of a smutty for, for,

Oh yeah. Yeah. That was like the whole point of it. Like she would wrestle these guys. It was choreographed. So like she got, I didn't know if this was like, cause in the eighties and nineties, like it was big to have like at home work workout videos, like jazz or size videos.

Oh no, yeah. This was definitely, she was just doing this to kind of fill that niche of, you know, wrestling fetish, I guess, of women overpowering men. You go girl, whatever you gotta do. Yeah, and so a lot of it was like thigh headlocks and I mean, it was all choreographed. So, you know, but she decided eventually

she didn't like that the person who was kind of running this behind the scenes was a man. And she said she would rather, in her own words, exploit herself. If anyone was going to exploit her, she was going to exploit herself. And so- Good for you, okay. I was gonna say.

And so she started producing her own videos. Imagine her on OnlyFans today. She would make a killing. A killing. A Killing. A Killing. A Killing. So she started producing her own videos and she would travel the country to do these private

wrestling sessions among her, basically this network of loyal fans. And she called herself Killer Sally. That was her like her character, you know? So Shantina, her daughter remembers being ashamed about her mother's career as a young girl. There was of course a stigma attached to fetish work. There still is. Well especially, yeah, back then.

Back then especially. Cause we're over here being like, oh, you know, get your bag, do whatever you wanna do. Like it's, you know, but back then it was like, it had. Back then especially. Definitely. Because we're over here being like, oh, get your bag, do whatever you want to do. But back then it was like, it had to be such a dirty thing. And also, it's not our mom. I imagine it's not that I'm saying like, oh, we should treat someone differently if they're your mother. But I'm sure there's also that edge of that same kind of embarrassment or fear that people

will make fun of you or you know that kind of thing. I'm sure there's more layers to it especially being in your own family. But Sally didn't mind the stigma. The money was pretty good. You know she used to have to dumpster dive for cans to sell to the recycling center. She was not having to do that anymore. The bills were paid and meanwhile Ray is able to focus on bodybuilding. He's winning these major competitions. He actually ended up qualifying for the Mr. Universe competition, which is like the ultimate, like the top, top, top. And she said, Sally said she loved him so much, she would do anything for him. And Shantina said her mom was beyond in love with Ray. So at competitions, a whole family would stand on stage with young Shantina and John posing

beside their flexing parents. So it was like almost like a circus family, right? They're like, look at these guys. They're the famous bodybuilding family. I feel like I imagined them kind of looking like the Incredibles or something, like the little kids just standing on their big fucking shoulders. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like a human pyramid.

Yeah. And everyone has a cape on for some reason. Yeah. Just a trench coat of snakes, actually. You forgot. Ha-ha! So they looked like a pretty happy family, and they were like enjoying the limelight. They did everything together. But unfortunately, as we know, not just from this podcast,

but from life in general, things are not always as they seem in the public eye. And behind closed doors, this happy family was actually going through a whole nother set of issues in that Sally had left one abusive marriage for yet another. So even though she had fallen in love with Ray or fallen in lust and claimed he would be the best stepfather to her children, he was very physically abusive. He would often beat her. He even choked her repeatedly in front of their young children. Jesus. One of Ray's best friends described Ray as kind and gentle, but he also had a short fuse and that you should be cautious around him. So kind and gentle, but not actually kind or gentle.

As long as you are in line, he's kind and gentle. Like, ooh. Kind and gentle until you piss him off and then he's actually neither of those things. And then you better run. Like, oh my God. So Ray had worked as security at a bar and somebody had picked a fight with him and he ended up beating the man so badly,

he blinded him. Holy shit. Yeah. And that just gives you an idea of, like, how short this man's fuse really was, how he really could just... I do wonder... ...could and would.

I do wonder, um... Because in my mind, obviously it's like had to be bad no matter what, but in my mind to beat somebody up to a point where they go blind, sounds like a lot of effort, but if you're that fucking shh, like jacked, like I feel like it,

like what we're really saying is he hit one guy with one punch and it was just a little too hard of a punch. Like I don't, not that that matters, I'm just trying to envision like how you even get into that situation where you've blinded somebody, like could he have just not known his own strength and like thought he was just, he lost it for a moment and hit him or was this a full blown,

I'm trying to fuck this guy up fight? I think he was going to fuck this guy up because that same friend who had witnessed this event also said, I've seen him do some horrifying stuff to people. Oh, okay. Well, that does that. Okay. Yeah. And I think from what we know,

he was just a violent man and kind of only avoided arrest in that scenario because the police knew who he was. Like he was kind of well-. Okay. Um, and on top of that, he also abused his own children. So when John was in kindergarten, he came home from school. This makes my heart hurt. He came home from school with a frowny face pinned to his shirt. And when his, when Ray asked what happened, he said, Oh, I acted out, I spoke in class and I got in trouble. And so the teacher put this frowny face on my shirt and Ray beat him with a belt because of it. And he would regularly beat both children one at a time, the other had to watch.

And John later claimed it was torturous to watch his father abuse his sister, Shantina, knowing he was next. And John said that Ray was like the devil to him. So it's almost like a Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde. That's how Shantina described him. He could be loving and fun and then just like on a dime, switched to violent and angry. And before you ask, yes, he was also on steroids. I gathered that. Yeah. I didn't feel the need steroids. I gathered that. Yeah.

I didn't feel the need to ask on that one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was once arrested actually after breaking Sally's nose during an argument, but Sally didn't pursue charges. He also once beat her so badly, her rib punctured her lung, like broke a rib and punctured her lung. And again and again, little John and Shantina would witness Ray attack Sally in the home

and they just couldn't understand why she wouldn't leave, especially when Ray was attacking them too. And looking back, I'm sure there's a lot of layers to this, but Shantina always felt that her mom chose Ray over her own children, right, instead of protecting her own kids. And going off of that, friends actually, friends of Sally described her as obsessed with Ray.

Like no matter, like one of those just classic, like toxic, violent, abusive relationships where it's like she just can't pull herself away from him. Right, okay, that makes sense. Yeah, that's how her friends described it. And even when Ray started having affairs with other women openly, Sally stayed by his side and she knew he had people on the side and she hated it,

but she stayed by his side. However, when she saw a story in the news about a bodybuilder strangling his wife to death, Sally said she had recalled all the times Ray had grabbed her by the throat and started to strangle her. And she kind of had this aha moment of he's going to kill me someday.

I mean, I can't imagine, again, just in brute strength, like I already can't imagine somebody putting their hands around my neck, but someone that big with that much strength and you know their stats and you know how strong, like he could crush your fucking neck without even trying. Like that's, yeah, I would be beyond, beyond scared. Yeah, so yeah, exactly. It suddenly hit her,

like, wait a minute, this has happened before, and now I know I could be next. So she decided it was time to leave, and she planned to take Shantina and John with her back to Pennsylvania to stay with family. And John, little John, remembers Sally telling him to be ready to pack all his things and leave on a moment's notice. He said in an interview, quote, we were so close to escaping, which talk about ominous.

That night, February 14th, Valentine's Day, 1995, a call came in to 911. And it was Sally on the line. And she told the dispatcher, I just killed my husband because he just beat me up. And hauntingly, in the background of the phone call, you can hear Shantina sobbing and screaming, no, dad, no. Oh God. And first responders, of course, arrive and they find Ray in a horrifying state. The officer, Gary Schultz, interestingly. Shut up. Dad serious.

Wow. Arrived to find Ray in a horrifying state. He had been shot twice with a shotgun. The first shot had smashed three of his ribs and disintegrated most of his liver and created a five inch by six inch hole in his diaphragm. And his liver was protruding out from his body. So I feel like people are now using against her the name Killer Sally,

that she used for herself in the videos. Ding, ding, ding. Okay. You really nailed it, yes. That definitely helped the case blow up in the press, right? Like it writes itself, you know? So the first shot had disintegrated most of his liver. A part of it, the remaining part of it

was protruding from his body. His ribs had been smashed. There was a five by six inch hole in his diaphragm. And after she had shot him the first time, he began to crawl away on his hands and knees. And Sally shot him again, but this time in the face. Woof. And this shot shattered his upper jaw,

tore out half of his lower jaw, and shredded his tongue. Oh, his tongue? His tongue? Oh my God. Yeah, and so when police arrived, they were shocked to find him still alive on his hands and knees. Alive and nearly upright is crazy.

I would have thought like he's still fighting to survive. Or do you? He was trying to crawl away. And I guess when they found him, he was still on his hands and knees. He was completely disfigured. He was bleeding profusely. And he did eventually

die of his injuries. But, you know, obviously, but... His liver was hanging out of his body. Yeah. And most of it was gone, you know? And so in the moment, it was a very horrific thing. And to think that his daughter or stepdaughter, I guess, but Shantina was there in the background crying like, no, dad, no, and is watching this happen. Ugh. She had to watch him like getting up and trying to crawl away too.

Yeah, yeah. Oh my God. Oh my God. It's really, really, really dark. And Shantina and John, just to give you an idea, were only in sixth and fourth grade. So they're little. Oh, last trauma for the rest of your life.

For sure, big time. They've already had enough trauma, I would imagine, but now this on top of it. And when police arrived, they put them in the back of a squad car and the kids were hysterical in the back of the cop car, sobbing for their mom. And Shantino was trying to kick the window to try and get out to

get to her mom. Like they were just so scared and overwhelmed. It just breaks my heart. So they get to the police station, Sally tells investigators she shot Ray because he was attacking her and they informed her that Ray died at the hospital and now she was being arrested for murder. So Shantina and John were allowed to see her for a few minutes and you can, there's footage of this on camera in the interrogation room. They tearfully told her that they weren't mad at her. And Shantina asked if Sally was in trouble

and Sally said, yes, I am. So John said he overheard a police officer saying Sally wouldn't go to prison if she killed his dad in self-defense. And he said to his mother, I mean, this poor thing, he's in fourth grade. He tells his mother to explain herself

so that she can go home. And Sally tells him, it's not that simple, you know. I'll get back to you when I can. And the family hugs. Shantina and John are transported to a group home where they were more traumatized or traumatized again and felt totally abandoned and confused and eventually... And also like, sorry, I was going to say for, like that's the night when a kid really needs

their mom. Exactly. That like to be alone and not know anybody. I mean, thankfully they had each other, at least they were together. That like to be alone and not know anybody. I mean, thankfully they had each other, at least they were together, but like to be so little and not understand and for John to say, oh, just tell them, like tell them why you did it

and then you can come home and that fear. And thankfully, eventually Sally's family came from Pennsylvania to take them home. And so they at least had family, but yeah, that night where you don't get either parent, you know, I mean, poof. Oh God. So Sally, meanwhile, was released on $100,000 bail, which was paid for by her

wrestling fans who gathered the money to get her out and her defense lawyer, who was a public defender because she couldn't afford a private attorney, started developing a strategy that focused on portraying Sally as having BWS, which was called battered woman syndrome. Battered woman syndrome described the behavior of women who endured violence from their partners. And these women might use violent force to escape their abusive situation, which was considered justified, often necessary. And the signs of battered woman syndrome are today more often diagnosed as PTSD and are not, you know, it's battered woman syndrome is not an official, it's not in the DSM or

anything like that. So in her defense, Sally claimed that the night she killed Ray, he had come home from the bar late having spent Valentine's Day with his girlfriend, with another woman. Of course. One of Ray's best friends was at home with Sally and she was in a bad mood about Ray, so the friend decided to leave and pick up dinner, but Sally asked him to stay. Apparently things usually were more peaceful when this friend was around, right? Instead of the two of them being alone, he was almost like, that's all her.

Right, so she almost like was hoping that he would be with her. It's like, at least he won't beat me when he's with another woman. Yeah, that he'd be around, exactly. And he said, no, I'm gonna go grab food, but I promise I'll be right back. Well, famous last words,

because by the time he returned, Ray had come home and the chaos had unfolded, police were already there. Sally said when Ray got home, they had gotten into an argument because apparently he had bought chicken from an expensive grocery store that she knew she couldn't afford. And she was the primary income of the family, the sole income of the family. And so she kind of called him out for buying this expensive chicken at the grocery store and then said, where were you with your girlfriend? And I guess that's when he started choking her. And 12 year old Shantina corroborated this.

She testified that although she was in her bedroom, she knew Ray was strangling her mother because she had heard it happen so many times. Oh, she was like used to the like the gagging sound. Oh my god. She said, you never forget that sound. No, I can't imagine you do. That is traumatizing. So Sally broke free and ran to the bedroom where she kept a sawed off shotgun.

And she explained that she owned this gun for safety, but she often used it as a prop in her wrestling and bodybuilding videos in which she portrayed killer Sally. That's gonna come back and bite her in the ass. So yeah, that's rough. Sally said she loaded the shotgun with one bullet and shot Ray and this bullet broke his ribs. And even though at first he wasn't dying of the injuries,

it became a lethal shot because he eventually bled to death internally in his chest and abdomen. But Ray advanced on Sally in a rage, so she shot him again, this time in the face. Now, hearing these shots, Shantina thought that Ray had slammed Sally into furniture and that he was going to kill her. So she burst out of her bedroom holding a baseball bat

prepared to defend her mom. Instead, Ray is on the ground covered in blood with like the most horrific, gruesome injuries. And, you know, this story then unfolded the way we talked about it and it became a media sensation. So of course, reporters take this on with killer Sally, all this, they call Sally a pumped up princess

and brawny bridge. They ran headlines like, yeah, like literally hone it fucking down, okay. Back up, like for like, yes. Back the fuck up. They ran, go touch grass, as Em said earlier, go touch a little grass, go sit in the wise woods and think about what you've done.

Is that what it's called, the wise woods? The wise woods, yeah. I'm like, I love that so much. So they ran headlines like instead of pumping iron, she was pumping bullets into her husband. Oh my fucking God. That's not even clever. What?

Yeah, I mean, I feel like this was just the perfect ammo for like women hating men to just like really finally be like, see, look what they're all about. See, go home and feed your children. You know, oh God. News stations of course focused on Sally's physique and called this, here we go, called into doubt that she could be abused because she was so strong.

Oh, yeah, she was asking for it. You can't win as a woman. It's like, how could you be beaten up? Look how many muscles you have. It's like, look how fucking big he was. Are we not playing a... If we're gonna compare her to other women, we should compare him to other men.

And then, what do you know? They're the exact same. Yep. And just like you had already alluded to, it was revealed that both Sally and Ray were using steroids. On the night he was killed, Ray had five different types of steroids in his system, and Sally had one. And that one was too much compared to his five, I'm sure. I'm sure. But either way,

people began to blame Roid rage for both Ray's attack and Sally's defense and, you know, the idea that, like, all of these steroids, the steroid misuse led to, like, this elevated anger. I mean, the fact that she had even been fired from the military for her, like, outbursts and the constant violence in the home, there was a lot that people pointed to the steroid misuse for that. for her outbursts and the constant violence in the home. There was a lot that people pointed to, the steroid misuse for that.

But neither the defense nor the prosecution focused on the steroids. Instead, the defense was concerned with a longstanding pattern of abuse in Sally's marriage. The prosecution focused on the same thing, but a different angle. According to them, Ray wasn't the sole aggressor. In fact, investigations revealed that Sally herself had a long history of aggressive and

violent behavior. We said it had cost her her career in the military. Ray's friends reported Sally sometimes picked fights with Ray and kind of like egged him on physically, you know, like with shoves and trying to rile him up. Sally once discovered that Ray was having an affair with another bodybuilder. And so when she was at a competition and saw the woman in the audience,

she grabbed her by the hair, pulled her to the floor and punched her repeatedly until she was pulled off of this woman. Wow. And as a result, she was banned from competing for a year. So they both have this like just tumultuous history of violence with each other, with other people. And she was also reportedly involved

in physical fights with neighbors, even the police. One time she tried to fight the police when they came to like arrest her. Just a lot of a lot of um Red flags and these and these this is all documented. So it is factual that she also was Yeah, I mean she was you're right with the military thing too. Yeah. Okay I'm not that that doesn't excuse anything but that interesting It makes sense because if they're broader picture like a more if they're both, roided out, you know, that they would both be dealing with this.

Right. Exactly. And like, it seems like, I mean, we already talked about how she was, it was lust at first sight and how it was this terrible abusive cycle where she just was obsessed with him, you know, like, and then to add steroids into that. I mean, good luck, you know. One of Ray's friends said that he loved the entire family, including Sally, but that their relationship was extremely toxic from the beginning, yeah.

And apparently Ray had told his friends shortly before his death that he was in love with another woman and was planning to file for divorce. So, yeah. Ms. Valentine's Day, probably. Yeah, yeah, Things were getting heated. And the prosecution believed Sally actually attacked Ray in a fit of jealousy, not self-defense. And so they charged her with first degree murder, claiming that this was a premeditated killing.

But Sally insisted that in all the time she had a gun in the house, it had never occurred to her she might have to use it against Ray. And she stuck to her story about this being self-defense. However, that's when they brought in the forensic evidence. So Sally said she had run to the bedroom, grabbed the gun and two bullets, shot Ray once in the living room and immediately reloaded for the second shot. So to reload the shotgun, Sally had to open it and release the first slug shell, which would fall to the floor where she stood. But that slug shell wasn't in the living room. It was in the bedroom. In other words, she didn't bring two bullets with her.

She loaded the gun once, shot Ray, returned to the bedroom, got another bullet, reloaded the gun again. So he'd already been basically... He was already down. He he'd already been basically... He was already down. He was down already, yeah. And so she went back and reloaded a second time and shot him again. And Sally also claimed that Ray was still standing and advancing on her when she shot him the second time in the face. But the blood spatter from the second shot didn't line up with the story because it covered the inside of a lampshade near the spot where Ray fell. And so to be inside the lampshade, it would have had to be coming upward from the floor,

if that makes sense. Like the inside of the shade had spatter, meaning it came from below. And so that evidence indicated Ray was lying on the ground when Sally shot him in the face the second time So according to later coverage by the US Supreme Court forensic evidence also showed that the fingernail Strangulation marks on Sally's neck may have been self inflicted. Oh Gosh, were they because they go the opposite way that they should or something? It's actually the nails. The nails were... His nails were not long enough to have left these kind of finger-rail marks

in her neck is what the witness said. It was the 80s, those acrylics. Yeah, those giant French nails. Yeah. So the evidence casts some doubt on Sally's story, as did testimonies from Ray's friends who spoke on Ray's behalf and insisted that Sally was also a very violent partner in her marriage. In the prosecutor's words, violent women cannot be battered women. So that's their pitch here. So the trial began on

February 14th 1996 which was a year after the killing. And in a documentary, the prosecutor said, good lawyers want the trial to be poignant. So why not start the trial on Valentine's Day? Okay. All right. Sure. I guess if you're going to be, you know, dramatic about it. Shantina took the stand, poor thing, to describe Ray strangling her mother.

And she insisted that she knew the sound too well to mistake it and that she indeed had heard it coming from outside her bedroom. She became emotional during the examination and the cross, so the defense attorney asked that she be excused. And because of this, Shantina felt she didn't get a real chance to paint a picture of how egregious the abuse was. She almost kicked herself for being too emotional and not being able to paint a full picture.

And John, little John didn't get the chance to testify at all. He felt he was denied the opportunity to tell his mother's story. And so both of them felt like they weren't given enough space and time to share their story on behalf of their mom. And only one friend took the stand to testify in Sally's defense because she was the only one who knew firsthand about Ray's physical abuse. She said she had seen Sally with bruises, with broken bones after Ray had attacked her in the past, and Sally had mostly hid it from her other friends because she was ashamed. But there were also military records of Ray's violence towards Sally.

And even though now they've proven that most likely Ray was physically abusive toward her, the question now became, was this self-defense? Was she in immediate danger when she killed Ray? Or did she just decide, this is it, he has to go and I'm gonna kill him? So against her lawyer's recommendation, Sally took the stand.

And during questioning, she was extremely rigid. Her lawyer explained she was following Marine Corps training and she answered every question with yes sir or no sir, and showed no emotion when the prosecution asked her about loading the shotgun and shooting Ray. So the prosecution asked Sally whether she went by the name Killer Sally.

She said no, because she didn't consider Killer Sally her actual name. And to her Killer Sally was this like character she was portraying, and not like even a nickname in real life. Like nobody in her real life actually called her that. But you know the first time that she put those two things together,

she went, oh, fuck. Like that's totally- Face palm. Oh, they're like, oh, they're gonna fucking latch onto that. Yeah. Yeah. So she was like, no, I do not consider that my name. And so promotional videos of Sally holding the murder weapon as a prop and calling herself killer,

all this stuff basically was deemed irrelevant and therefore inadmissible by the court. Because she's like, I don't consider myself that, that's not my name. And so that was, yeah, that was a character. It's not her. Well, so, go ahead. I was gonna say, so are there technically out there

for like true crime fanatics? I don't know why you would want this, but maybe you do. Are there home videos you can buy of Killer Sally literally holding the gun in the videos? Oh, I don't know actually. I mean, probably somewhere. You know, someone would watch that in freeze frame and then tell all their buddies,

like, you know, fun fact about this scene, you know? Yeah, I wonder, I'm not sure. I mean, maybe somewhere, it seemed like, the way it was described, it felt very amateur, like she just did it for her fans mostly, you know? So I don't think it was ever broadly distributed anywhere. Okay, got it. But probably somebody has it in a basement,

so be careful out there. Someone has a copy, got it. But probably somebody has it in a basement. So someone has a copy and yeah. Yeah, so you know, one of those blank VHS tapes might be very alarming. Let's see. But the prosecution was able to argue that Sally lied when she answered no about being killer Sally. So, oh god, it's all just semantics, you know? So they were allowed to present the videos and promotional materials in court because they argued she said no, but she was lying. So we do want to bring all the killer Sally promotional materials in to court. And they did.

And it was extremely damning. Sally's lawyer believed she'd be convicted of first degree murder. He was like, she's going to life. She's going to spend life in prison. Like, there's no way around it. But after three days of deliberation, the jury found Sally not guilty of first degree murder.

And this was shocking. Wow. Yeah, especially... To her own lawyer. Especially back then, like, for women, I thought, I was thinking for sure she was a goner. She was done for. Yeah. Instead, they found her guilty of second-degree murder and she was sentenced to 19 years to

life in prison. So outside of the courthouse, a member of the jury told reporters the jury didn't believe that Sally's life was in imminent peril when she shot Ray, which was a requirement for killing in self-defense. And that's why they decided second degree made more sense. So John and Shantina stayed permanently with Sally's parents in Pennsylvania. And John said that although Sally's parents had struggled with alcohol use disorder when Sally was a little girl, Shantina and John grew up well-loved in the home, in their grandparents' home, and said it was a blessing that they took such good care of them. So at least there's that silver lining. According to John, he actually felt relieved when Sally shot Ray. He said, even if he lived, he would never

be able to beat me, my mother, and my sister again. I knew that it was over Yeah, I don't blame him. I know I mean what a tough thing to admit but also like who could judge you for that Especially as a kid, you know, I mean, yeah, like you just want to stop hurting you. Yeah For a while Sally's family traveled to California once a year with Shantina and John to visit Sally, but they eventually stopped visiting. Sally said in an interview, you can't expect a lot from your family. You can't make big demands because they have a life to live out there, which I feel like it's sad because I feel like she never got much from her family.

She was second class citizen in her own home because she wasn't a bio child of her father. Like it's just sad. It's just sad that she's like, no, you can't expect too much from your family. It's like, well, not in your experience, you know? Anyway, Sally repeatedly filed appeals from prison and her conviction was overturned, but the state of California took the case to the US Supreme Court and then they reinstated the conviction in 2004. Ultimately, she served 25 years in prison. Imagine this, she got out summer of 2020. So like what a time to re-enter the world. Wow. Oh my God.

Of all times, you spend a quarter of a century locked up. Do you think that's why she got let out? Oh, you know, that's a good point. A lot of people ended up getting earlier releases because of COVID. Yeah, that's a good point. I actually don't know the answer to that, but it's entirely possible.

So upon her release, Sally received housing, rehabilitation and counseling reserved for veterans. And she met another veteran who was previously incarcerated and they fell in love and got married. This makes me so nervous. Oh girl, come on now. I know, just take some time to yourself. I guess you had 25 years.

Be single for a minute. Be single for, well yeah, I guess you were single for 24 years. I guess you did. I had some time to think about everything. But yeah, so Sally rekindled her relationship with Shantina and John, who now had their own kids. So she got to meet her own grandchildren. And she focused on moving forward with her life

to enjoy her freedom and time with her family. So, essentially, at the conclusion of this documentary, Killer Sally, which is on Netflix, by the way, Sally seemed pretty content. She, you know, had reunited with her family. She was employed at a warehouse. She was remarried. And she said, life is good. So hopefully, you know, all the tumultuous times are in the past. There has been some

criticism from people who feel that the interviews with Sally are, you know, one sided, obviously, because Ray was killed. For example, one of Ray's friends felt that Ray was unfairly portrayed in the media due to racial bias and that not enough people acknowledged Sally's own history of violence. But others believe Sally was unfairly convicted because she wasn't a perfect victim. So it's like, it's all very nuanced and very layered.

I don't think there's a right answer. And although it's true that Sally had a history of violence, it was also true there was documentation of Ray beating her up and harming her and harming her kids. And you can't overshadow that with anything else. Yes, exactly. She wasn't a perfect victim. Nobody is. So the prosecutor said that a violent woman

couldn't be a battered woman, and a newscaster asked whether Sally was a strong woman or a victim, which yikes. You can only be one of either. A strong woman or a victim? That just makes me wanna scream, okay. That was insane, yeah. That's like the most insane thing I've ever heard.

Lee Goodmark. And for a woman to be asking, right? It doesn't say, it just says, I'm used caster. Oh, I thought you said that she was a woman. No, either way. Somehow I doubt it. Somehow I doubt it, but who knows? So Lee Goodmark is the author of The Imperfect Victim.

And Lee says that survivors of abuse can be both strong women and victims, duh, okay, and oftentimes are, just saying. And according to her, a good mark that is, society has a specific idea of how survivors of abuse should act in order to earn sympathy, which leads sometimes to the criminalization of survivors who don't fit the mold, such as Sally McNeil. And that is where we end our story today of Sally McNeil, killer Sally. Wow, great story, but you know, my usual comments. Well done, Christine.

Yes, let me send you a photo of the two of them just because I feel like it helps put, you know, just from that time in the 80s, 90s, you can see like how the fucking media ate this shit up. Hold on. It's so not surprising, especially when you see pictures. It's like, oh yeah, I can see that the magazines ran with it. Oh come on.

Yeah, immediately. Right? Yeah, I totally get it. And the pictures of her, there's some where she's like holding up like a whole nother person. Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, they're both stacked. Like they're, wow.

And it's sad because they had such a unique partnership. And they really could have been the power couple. Right? And I guess they were for a second. They were for a minute and like, you know, they could have really run with that, but instead it just spiraled into chaos. It's too bad. It's really tough.

Wow. Well, well done, Christine. Thank you. I hope she's doing okay. I hope the kids and grandkids are doing okay. It's a lot. It's a lot. Yeah, it's I don't know. Gotta be tough.

I just always wonder. Well, what are you up to for the rest of the day? I guess I'm recording an After Dark with my friend Em. What are you up to? Nothing. No. Um, do you have a topic in mind, or are we doing another show and tell? What are we doing?

Oh, I have a topic in mind or are we doing another show and tell? What are we doing? Oh, I have a little, a mini, it's like a show and tell plus an interactive show and tell. It's an interactive show and tell. Yeah. Okay. Well, if you'd like to see us continue our ramblings, you can head over to Patreon. You can also buy our book, A Haunted Road Atlas. You can also buy our other book that's coming out next month, A Haana Road Atlas Next Stop. You can also go onto our website and look up tour

tickets. You can also go on our website and submit a listener's story for our listeners episodes at the first of every month. And you can also go drink some water, you thirsty little rat. And that's why we drink.