And That's Why We Drink - E394 A Glitching Sim and a Yappy Hour

Episode Date: August 25, 2024

It's episode 394 so here's your reminder to drink your water, you thirsty little rats and take your meds ya silly little geese! This week Em takes us to Texas for the disturbing case of Black Hope Cemetery. Then Chrisitne covers the absolutely heartbreaking and important case of adorable queer couple Julie Williams and Lollie Winans. And did Christine manage to catch ice on fire? ...and that's why we drink!How is it almost September already?! We absolutely cannot WAIT to bring you our BRAND NEW ghosty footage - get your tickets to our kick off live shows in Newark, NJ and Tarrytown, NY!! andthatswhywedrink.com/live

Hello everybody, live from Newark, just kidding, but soon, very soon, very soon we're about to have our very first show of our Poor Decisions Tour in Newark, New Jersey. Why wouldn't you want to come out on a Thursday night to see a bunch of creepy ghost footage and drink wine with us? Come on, come on. You know, Thirsty Thursday you little rats, time to go get a little fucked up, watch a couple ghosts. And I don't know, honestly, you might see some things you never want to see again because they're going to be so funny that your eyes will fall out of your head. Okay.

Well, I hope that doesn't happen, but it might. You never know. At one of our live shows, things go a little haywire. So come out and see us. You can buy your tickets at andthat'swhatyoudrink.com and we'll be in a city near you, hopefully, starting with Newark. So come on, New Jersey, step it up.

Let's play, let's party. And then we're in Sleepy Hollow. We have lots of stuff coming up. Bye. Goodbye. Well, well, well, we're back at it again, folks. It's another and that's why we drink episode and it's 394. How are you doing today, Amethy? I'm so actually tired.

No, you don't say, that doesn't sound like you at all. There's a first for everything folks. We move the day after tomorrow and yesterday, yesterday we started packing so Which we're almost done. I it's only the troll hole that's left really but Yeah, I was just it was just a long day yesterday. So yeah, these bones are aching like a nightmare truly. We were We've had to do God, it's been such a nightmare with this house

Which like I'm not surprised by it. Like I went into getting a house. Like you knew. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I went into it anticipating being disappointed every step of the way and things being twice or thrice as long as expected. And expensive. Yeah. And expensive. So every single time bad news hits me, I just go,

well, saw that coming. Yeah. That's exactly right. The other day I caught the stove on fire and I checked my ring, my aura ring like app and my heart rate hadn't even accelerated by one beat. And I thought, this is troubling actually. I think, and I'm not kidding you when I say it was like out of the Sims,

like there were flames like shooting out. And I was standing there and I wasn't even doing the Sim like pee pee dance or whatever they call it where they're like jumping up and down. I was just kind of, I was said, okay, that sounds right. This seems about correct. That's even more like the Sims just standing there. Like I just stood there like a Sim who is glitching and I was trying to make fucking broccoli.

Like who am I? I was like, I'll do something healthy today for Leona and me. And then I just- Were you boiling it? What were you doing? No, I put a bunch of frozen broccoli straight into a frying pan.

And I don't know why it immediately caught on fire, but Blaze said, of course it did. So I'm sure there's some sort of logic there that I'm just missing. But yeah. Like it caught on fire in the pan, or was it like there was leftover crud from a previous meal?

It was like the broccoli hit the pan and like everything went up in flames, and I thought, it's made of ice. How is this happening? But I'm sure there's some physics. Only you can set ice on fucking fire. I know! And Blaze acted like duh and I was like what do you mean? Anyway I just feel very out of sorts in the same way.

I'm where it's like things just happen and I'm like yep that seems, yep right on track, right on cue. Do you want to know something that is absolutely breathtakingly awful? Oh no,, sure. Which this is one of those things where I went, okay, well, I saw that coming. I didn't see it coming. Okay, so we have a power line that we need moved

so that way we can build the studio. Oh, right. Okay. Because right now there's like a wire that's kind of like drooping. And so, yeah, so we can't, it has to be moved. Well, you gotta call the city. I did. And I called the city and apparently they were like, oh, it's gonna be like 400 bucks for us to get out there

and move this thing just like over to the side. They just kind of like shifted over. And I was like, okay, great. So, and then they're like, but actually, just so you know, like we're not actually the right people. You're supposed to call a specific department and set a whole, everything has been waiting five business days for someone to come out to tell me

that I actually called the wrong people and someone else has to come out. It's been like months and months and months. So finally the right people come out and they're like, oh, well yeah, if you could move it over to the side, it would cost $400. But actually, without triangulating myself and giving specifics, the way that our house is,

apparently we can't just move it over to the side and it has to be buried underground, AKA a whole excavation team has to do construction on our yard. And so instead of $400, it is $10,000. No, oh sorry, I just broke my computer. Are you serious? It absolutely, I just went, I guess I'm not having a studio. I guess the troll hole is $10,000. No! Oh, sorry, I just broke my computer. Are you serious? It absolutely, I just went, I guess I'm not having a studio.

I guess the troll hole is just fucking, just not gonna happen. Why don't you just leave the wire and see what happens? I mean, honestly, if it all goes up in flames, like, it happened to me, it's fine. You'll be okay. So it's not broccoli, I can't just like. Oh, okay.

So anyway, that was absolutely a wild ride. And so now we've had to like, I mean, it's one of those things where I'm kind of like, well, if we want a studio, it has to happen. And it's like, what can you do? Like you just, it's like when we were putting our garage together and they're like, well, there's a, what do they call it? Supply chain issue or whatever the fuck. And so now instead of like $5,000 a garage door is like

40 $14,000 and you're like, how like how is that possible? And it doesn't even matter. You can be like, explain it to me and they're like, okay, but you can't change it. Yeah, I like in there. They said upwards and I was like, that's I was like, okay, so I'll find anyone else. But that was, that was insane. That was insane. And that doesn't even, that's to move a power line so we can begin paying for construction. It doesn't even affect you.

Like, it's not even like you're gonna see any results or anything, it's just. Like now we just have to add it to the budget of like building a whole room. Like that's like, so it just doubled or like, I mean, definitely more than doubled. We already like had in our budget, that's gonna be like a whole room. Like that's like, so it just doubled, or like, I mean, definitely more than doubled. We already like had in our budget, it's gonna be like a whole situation. It's a whole situation.

Cold sweats just thinking about it. Like that's like, that's a whole fraction of what we were planning on paying for the entire fucking studio. And now it's gonna be, I mean, it's just like breathtaking. So that's one thing. Also, we're now another thing we did is we like paid for painters to come, not just painters, but we also have like wallpaper, we have some like someone to do like trim.

So we paid for these people to come out for like a whole week and like do all this stuff. Day one, they fuck up and we ended up kicking them out of the house. What did they do? They, it was just like they, uh, so we needed them to paint. They hung a big power line over the garage. Uh, no, it was the, the painting was fine, but, uh, we needed them to sand the walls first because the previous people who lived there had like this whole like, like wood art piece on the wall. That was-

Yes, it was like clapboard, or no, what do you call it? Like shiplap. Yeah, but it was like raw pieces of wood that they tried to create as- Right, it's splintery. Yeah, it was very splintery. So no matter, even if we liked it, it was gonna have to get fixed.

It was clearly like a COVID project. Yeah, like a DIY thing. And I'm sure for some people it looked cute, but it was not, it was just not our thing. It was very farmhouse and like, that's not our vibe. And so they had to take all that off the wall. Then they had to sand the wall to even paint the wall. And then on top of that, we were doing the thing where like half the walls painted half the things wallpaper and then we wanted to trim in the middle.

So it became this whole thing where every step of the way they had like an excuse for why they should come the next day and then the next day and then we wanted to trim in the middle. So it became this whole thing where every step of the way they had like an excuse for why they should come the next day and then the next day and then the next day. And then on the day where they actually showed up and did it they said that they didn't know how to put up wallpaper. And I was like, what the fuck are you talking about? Like, I can put up wallpaper. So anyway, we had paid like a certain amount upfront

and then we were going to pay like the next half after they were done. When we kicked them out, we were like like honestly just take our fucking money get out because like they like like they didn't it took them like a whole... How did you find them? We found them on like online somewhere and they had like they had I guess good reviews Allison's the one who saw them but I guess they we looked later and I guess they had more mixed reviews than we were prepared for.

Oh yeah you gotta hit me on that I will delve I can skim those reviews like they, we looked later and I guess they had more mixed reviews than we were prepared for. Oh, yeah, you got to hit me on that. I will delve. I can skim those reviews like nobody's business. Well, so guess what? So we gave them like a, like, it wasn't half, it was like 25, it was like a quarter of the money up front. But they still, we ended up in the red and now I'm doing all the painting and the wallpapering and trim. And so I somehow I'm doing it for $0 and I also lost money even though I'm the one now doing it. So it's-

You paid someone to do it yourself. That's really, that's really- It's truly like, it just hurts my feelings. Honestly that feels very on point. Like my mom just had the floor sanded at their house. And then afterward there were these huge divots in the like original wood flooring. And my mom was like having a, as Eva likes to say,

having a cow over it. And she even just- She was really teed off. She was really teed off and having a cow. And she was so PO'd that she actually ended up purchasing, not renting, purchasing a sander and sanding the floors herself. And I'm like, you just paid someone

like an arm and a leg to do this. And she's like, well, they didn't do it right. So this feels like very home ownership. I mean, it was. So anyway, the paint is done, the wallpaper's done, the trim is done. But had we just not paid anybody from the beginning, I would have made money somehow with Girl Math.

But like, so anyway, it's just all of this on top of like, now where we started packing yesterday, and also like the troll hole, I mean, the troll hole is where I record, but it's also full of all of my personal tchotchkes. Like I would say half my belongings fit in this room alone. It's like your man cave.

Yeah. Yeah, and now that there's definitely no studio, there's not even a free space without wires to put a studio if we wanted to. So half of our stuff is going to, I mean, get a storage room, I guess, or something. Wow. Until, I'm assuming, I'm just gonna guesstimate

a year from now I'll finally have a studio, because I'd like to just be pleasantly surprised if it doesn't take. Yes, agreed, that's always my advice. It's mine too. Just always prepare to be disappointed. So until then, all my fun just gets to go hide away somewhere because we just don't have room for it. So I'm... Okay, but think about the day when you get to unpack and you're like, oh my God, I forgot about my cocaine straw and my troll, like all these fun things.

That's a good point. I am already putting things, I'm already organizing things in boxes from like least to most exciting to open later. So then it's like a little Christmas present. Yeah, and you should wrap them. No, you shouldn't, you don't have time for that. I know, but it's a good idea.

If I had more than 48 hours before I'm out of here. I have a plan, Alison's gonna come strangle me with her own hands in like five minutes. But so anyway I'm going to I'm not gonna I'm not too worried about getting everything out of here because we still have like the week like we're here through the end of the month but like moving day is. I see. So like if I want movers to do it for me it has to be done for me in hours. I see. And there's a lot of things that I've bolted to walls here. So I think for the next few days after moving it,

I'm gonna be like just unscrewing things. I've tried to get you to staple things and you never agreed to that. So that's not my problem. For once in my life, I wish I fucking stapled everything to the wall because it'd be so much easier. You'd think so, but then when you move out

and you don't get your security deposit, because there's like 45,000 staples in the wall, then you will suddenly regret that decision. I've learned that the hard way. Well, anyway, so I'm doing all that. On top of all the moving and us preparing a show, I'm also planning Deirdre's bachelorette party. Oh, okay.

If everything happens in threes, my friend, I am so goddamn tired. But isn't that nice to know that the threes are there? Cause sometimes two things happen and you're like, shit, the shoe's gonna drop. I literally have a countdown. Like I've decided I'm just going to be so tired and stressed until the weekend after our first show.

And I like have a countdown of that day. And I'm like, I'm gonna be so happy that day. I'm gonna add it in mine too. I'm gonna be so happy that day. I'm gonna add it in mine too. I'm gonna be so happy that day. Yeah, great idea. So anyway, you didn't even ask why I drink, but that's why I drink. I'm just like all over the place.

I mean, I think it's a given. Yeah, I think it's a given. But things are, I at least have, most things are packed. The walls are done. I have a location I already Airbnb'd and booked for the bachelor party. And we're very close with all this footage. You and I are having a phone call after this.

But we're- Yes we are. So things are, I'm less stressed than I was a week ago. Let's put it that way. Oh, that's good. Okay, no, that's actually huge. Cause you know, I've learned the hard way. It can keep going up.

You think you've reached a peak and then it keeps going up. So I'm glad that at least it's like slightly diminished, dipped this week. Yeah, fingers crossed. I'm more stressed than I will be next week. So, you know, it just keeps, you know. Let's keep the trend going. Why do you drink? Oh, man. Well, I'm like drenched in sweat now just hearing about all this. So that doesn't help.

If you want to give me $10,000 for a wire, that already exists. Can I tell you something? I do want to, I'm not going to, but I do want to. Can I? No. It's the worst thing that's ever happened to me so far. Like I guess I wouldn't go that far.

And in terms of getting this house, that was the first like, oh, welcome to home ownership, life sucks. That was the first time for that. I don't know. I probably never bitched about, I mean, maybe I did bitch about my wallpaper, but I bought of course, fancy anthropology wallpaper

and the person who came to do it said, this is not normal wallpaper. Like this is like the old ass, like you gotta soak it in the right solution and then match all the drawings up. And I- You know, they said the same thing to me. That's why they decided not that they weren't gonna do

the wallpaper after we paid them 25% to do wallpaper. So, but you were able to do it? Yeah. Oh. It was not hard. Okay, then I don't know what, maybe I should have called you, but yeah, this woman, I had to hire her. She drove two, the only person I could find to do it,

drove two hours to be here to do it for me. And it was an arm and a leg. But anyway, that's so boring. I'm sorry, people. Point being, why do I drink? Well, I drink on your behalf, first of all. Thank you. I'm always happy to.

Everyone drink for me. That's a financial fiasco. Yeah, it sounds like it. But in reality, I drink because yesterday, I'm proud to announce Alexander and I recorded our 300th episode of Beach Shoe Sandy, Water Too Wet. I can't believe it. Womp, womp, womp, womp.

Wrong button. What sound was that? What sound was that? Womp, womp, womp. Oh. Wait, hang on. I really thought I was giving you- Wrong button or right button.

I really thought I was giving you the applause. Hang on, is it this one? Oh, I mean, that's a magical fairy wand, but I'll take it. Okay, imagine that it was the right sound. It was a lot of applause. Well, I will say, honestly, I'm so sorry, Kristy.

Honestly, the first one actually fits better because you know what we fucking did for 300th? We read one star reviews of our own podcasts. So the want- That's actually genius though. The want-want actually fits super well. And I will say- Did it hurt your feelings? No, not as much as I thought. Not at all, actually. Oh, okay.

I think we've finally either grown to a place or we had people select reviews that were not as maybe hard to read. But I think my favorite one, spoilers right here, if you're going to go listen to the 300th episode, but my favorite one is the last one I would say to read, which was like a one-star review. And it said, uh, these like, I can deal with the politics of these people. But the second Zandy started bashing, which like, it didn't really happen like this, of course, but like started bashing our veterans and this coming from a guy who complains when he has to wake up before noon. I laughed so hard. I was like, this actually feels so on point for all of us, you, me, Alexander, just bitching about waking up before noon and then having the audacity to insult people.

Not that we insulted veterans to be clear, that was very much, oh, and one person left a one-star review because we once said something negative about Ricky Gervais. I have no idea what we said, but they were like, how dare you? And it was a one-star, and we were like, oh my God, what have we done? So-

Do you know I've gotten two different, this is, I totally, sorry to be, I'm not, I really wasn't trying to make it about me, but this feels relevant in my head. I got two DMs recently where people said that they didn't like that I was making fun of you. Like talking crap about you. I was like, if I, after this one I don't know when.

That's what I'm saying. I'm like, if I did, it was to her face. It's like, what do you? I would love to know about why, because I'm like, well, I was probably there. Unless like you, unless they were like in Starbucks with you and you were like bitching about me behind my back. No, they said said on the show,

like, I didn't care for you saying this. And I'm like, well, Christine heard it and she was fucking fine. So you're good. I can't even begin to reme... If it was about Ricky Gervais, I would have flipped out. But if it was about me, then I don't care. I don't know.

I literally don't know. And Alex and I were like, do we even have opinions about Ricky Gervais? I don't think so. Can you think of a single thing you would have said about him? I mean, we say so much shit And Alexander and I were like, do we even have opinions about Ricky DeRays? I don't think so. I don't think I- Can you think of a single thing you would have said about him? I mean, we say so much shit like you and I do. Like we just say so much bullshit

that it's like bound to, I guess, tee someone off. But yeah, anyway. So I just feel like I've been all week dreading that 300th episode recording because I was like, what am I gonna have to- Oh, you're just gonna hurt your own feelings. Yeah, but actually it was very fun.

And it was, I think one of my favorite episodes we've done. So, you know, if, and also somebody said recently, oh, I finally figured out what Christine says. She's saying beach too sandy, water too wet. Cause apparently I just say, oh, beach too sandy. And a lot of people are like, what is she saying? Like, I don't even know how to Google that. Cause I just say it so I I blurt it out so fast.

So if anyone's finally like trying to figure out what the hell I'm saying, that's what I'm saying. But yeah, you can go check out episode 300 where we make fun of ourselves quite a bit. Brilliant. What are we gonna do for our 400th in a couple of weeks? You wanna read one star reviews? No.

Wait, say something quick about Ricky Gervais. God, what a prick. Ah, okay. Douche bag, right? Wait, say something quick about Ricky Gervais. God, what a prick. Okay. Douche bag, right? Am I right? Dangerous Dave, one, four, one. Time to rate your one star review. I'm actually gonna wake up at 11 and then I'm gonna talk shit about Ricky Gervais.

So I'll get back to you. That's a double whammy, man. We're gonna tank. Our ratings are gonna tank. Also, let me say something really nasty about you to your face and we'll see how people feel about that too. This is so exciting. I love that I have nothing to do with any of it. I just sit here, that's great.

Anyway, that's why I drink. I survived, it's over. I'm back to regular scheduled programming. So that means in a few weeks you'll have done, not including listeners episodes, by the way, because if you count our listeners episodes, we've far exceeded, we're almost at 500 episodes. Probably.

If you count listeners episodes, in a few weeks, you'll have hit probably 800 episodes of recording in your life. Jesus, Lord in heaven. And that doesn't include rituals, that's another 50. 50. Someone should add up at how many episodes we've actually done.

No, I have enough hives for today. I don't need to like- Cause I would like to hit like on our thousandth. Are you kidding me? That'd be so fun. Emma has such like a milestone thing that I just don't have. Like it doesn't phase me like a thousand.

Why don't you want to be proud of yourself? That's amazing. I'm proud of my cell phone a thousand and one. You know what I mean? Like I'm proud of myself. I think I just don't have the same relationship to like a number, like a milestone, you know, in the same way.

I don't know why though. I guess so. I hope to never have that. I love having my milestones. I like the- I like having them too. I just, I think- It gives you a moment to reflect.

Yeah. And sit with like all you've done. I think I just do that too often to my own detriment. So I don't know. Remember 300 episodes ago, you were like, I'm gonna do a silly little episode with my brother. I wonder where it'll go. And now look at all you've done with them.

I know, I know. And I am very proud of that. I think if I just added up a bunch of numbers and decided it was a thousand, I wouldn't feel quite as excited. Cause I'm like, I probably did the math wrong. I don't know. We could probably get someone else to do it for us.

But I'm excited for our 400. That's coming up. You better get so excited that you considered a real milestone and you're moved because I'm going to be moved and I'm going to be sad if I'm the only one moved. No, I'll be moved. I'll be moved about that. I just, we, I just don't know what we're going to do yet.

So I think I'm in the planning stages. I suggested billboard a year ago and now it's too late I think, but maybe on our 500th. I wanted a billboard for our 400th. That's all I wanted. You suggested a billboard. What do you want me to do? You find a fucking billboard a year ago, and now it's too late, I think. But maybe on our 500th. I wanted a billboard for our 400th, that's all I wanted. What do you want me to do? You find a fucking billboard. What am I supposed to do about it? I'll do it on our 500th.

I think I'm gonna do it for our 500th and I'm not even gonna tell you. That's what I think I'm gonna do. Well, excellent. That's my ideal scenario. Perfect. I just want you to know, one day when you realize there's a billboard,

and you go, why don't you tell me? I want you to listen to episode 394. And you agreed to this. Okay, well you can tell me, but I'm just saying when you say there's a billboard and you go, why don't you tell me, I want you to listen to episode 394. And you agreed to this. Okay, well you can tell me, but I'm just saying when you say let's do it and I'm like, okay, what am I supposed to do? I don't know how to do a billboard any better than you do. I don't know, I'll figure it out.

I'll let you know on episode 501 when it's already been out for a little bit. Okay, but the options can't be tell Christine to do it or don't tell Christine anything and I'll do it without her knowledge. There has to be a way. I wasn't telling you to do it. I was saying tell Christine to do it or don't tell Christine anything and I'll do it without her knowledge. There has to be a... I wasn't telling you to do it. I was saying I want to do it and then it just didn't happen.

Yes, that is true. So now for the plot though, I'm still going to do it and now not tell you. Oh God. Oh no. Okay. All right. I'll brace myself. Great.

Okay. I'll see you on a billboard in a hundred episodes. Um, what do you drink before we get into this? Nothing. Nothing? That was my mistake. Um, do you need something? Uh, no, I'm all right. I will say we are, we just, I'm very excited because we, uh,

just, uh, well, I don't know if we're supposed to say it yet. Nevermind. This comes out in like three days. We have some fun merch coming up. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. merch coming up. Mm-hmm. Well? What do you drink? I drink water, but I also drink a little tea. I got my ADHD several cups in front of me for different options situation.

See, the problem is I have my ADHD several cups in front of me, but they're all from days ago. So it's just an old molded coffee now. So it's like, mm. Eva said we can tease the merch if you'd like. Oh, okay. So after Em's wonderfully devised phrase of stay hydrated, drink up you thirsty little rats,

we're releasing some stickers and t-shirts with this like adorably creepy little rat on it. I'm very excited about it. I'm very excited for the sticker to go on a water bottle of the Thirsty Little Rat. Exactly. I feel like that will then maybe help me to remember for once. Yeah. Well if you forget your water bottle downstairs then there's no sticker to remind you. I know, and so that's, I already kind of feel the problem. Yeah, it comes out next Friday, Eva says, so that's exciting. I do kind of wish that we made the shirts upside down

so people could look down at their own shirt and remember to fucking drink their water. Yeah, but whatever. It just means everyone has to wear it, so you just look around and you're like, oh yeah, oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, excellent, excellent point. Okay, so anyway, go get your Thirsty Little Rat and until then just drink some water you thirsty little rats including Christine Who has nothing but air to chug?

Until then I'll drink water for both of us and Did I take my meds? Yes, I did. I did. You did? How many meds do you have? One two, well it depends. At night or in the day. Oh man. In a 24 hour period. One, two, three, four, five?

Six? Five. Maybe. Excellent. It depends on the time. I just have two. But until you count my Xanax, which will be right back in my cocktails in the next couple of weeks, then I have three.

That is not counting Clownpin. That is my base level, unfortunately. Okay, well, drinks of water, you three silly rats, take your meds, you silly little geese. And now I guess I'll tell you my story. This is the Black Hope Cemetery. And I'm very you my story. This is the Black Hope Cemetery. Ooh! I'm very excited for this.

I did get a slight spoiler, only in that Em and I just had the tremendous honor of recording with Jim Harrold for his Paranormal podcast. And that'll come out in September, the day the book releases, which I'm really amped about. And of course, Em and I are just huge geeks every time we talk to Jim Harrold. And he's the reason we keep saying teed off,

because in the beginning, he literally said, this is teeing me off when he was trying to get his- And he meant it. And he meant it, like not us, but like he was trying to get his technology to work properly. Like he had this cool layout, this like very advanced setup. And he's like, man, this thing is teeing me off.

And Em and I both like stared at each other through the screen, like, did you just hear that? And it was just so wonderful and sincere. But during that episode, Em mentioned, oh, I'm about to cover this topic, the, what is it? Black- Black Hope Cemetery.

Black Hope Cemetery. And Jim was like, I've heard of it and I have not. So I'm very excited. Well, I like it because I feel like so many of my stories are just like combinations of like, at a hotel, like it's just, like a series, like it's just almost like a listicle of like what everyone has heard or experienced there.

Versus they're being like, instead of there being like a story to go with, like it's so rare that I get to have like a full story following one person or one group of people. Right. But this is one of those, so I'm very stoked. So this is in 1980, and we are following Ben and Jean Williams, and they move into their home after Jean's doctor said that they need to move somewhere with better air for her

allergies. What? Can you imagine a doctor being like, oh, I think the only solution is to move. After your week of moving, do you think that's helped your health any? Like, no. It's like also moved like still kind of close so I don't lose the medical. Yeah, also stay in my, yeah, stay in my vicinity here, but move across town. Well, I think she was already like struggling with allergies and I think the doctor in passing

said something. So she's like, oh, I guess, you know. Might as well take the chance, yeah. I'm already moving anyway. Maybe I'll find some, maybe I'll specifically look for good air as my qualifier. I love that. Well, they chose this neighborhood,

which is it's in Crosby, Texas, which is near Houston. Okay. They chose this neighborhood. I guess it had great air. And also their oldest of three daughters lived nearby and suggested it for them. So it was this new neighborhood. So they would be the only people living there for a while. And it was surrounded by nature, probably hence the good air.

Okay. They chose to build on this empty lot that was at a dead end. Seems spooky already. That seems like a great choice. Not. And they chose this one because it was backed up to the woods with a beautiful oak tree in the yard. Okay, I mean, that sounds nice. And when they were looking at the tree, especially Jean,

when she's like, look at this beautiful tree, they were looking at it, and they realized there were some weird carvings marked into the tree. There was a downward arrow and then two horizontal lines beneath the arrow. I guess an equal sign. So they're like, well that's funky, but you know trees have their quirks. Someone could have been here and drawn an upside down arrow. Just practice their arithmetic. Yeah, it's fine. So they're like, okay, well, whatever.

But fun fact, we have a tree with some markings on it. So they move into the house and soon they realize that the house constantly has these really weird cold spots despite like Texan heat. And it's weirdly, weirdly cold, like blizzard cold. And they kind of, I guess, ignore it, because I don't know what you do. Well, it must also feel nice, you know, in that heat. Yeah, it's like, ah, actually keep it coming.

Come a little closer. Stand next to me, spirit. I do wonder, like, if I was experiencing that, like, what would I do? I don't know, call HVAC and, like, just hope they know what's going on. And if they don't, I just keep it moving? I don't know, call HVAC and just hope they know what's going on. If they don't, I just keep it moving. I don't know.

But yeah, so they're like, okay, I guess it just gets cold sometimes. Ain't that silly. But then another weird thing happens where within a few days of living there, they realize that the house has an ant infestation. They follow the trail and they realize that the bugs are coming, not the bugs, just ants, house has an ant infestation. Okay. They follow the trail and they realize that the bugs are coming, not the bugs, just ants, but they're coming through the window of the bedroom. And when they follow the trail out, all of the ants are coming from the oak tree.

Oh, no. That arrow was just like one of their signs like to where directions how to get back inside. Look down at all the ants. Follow the arrow. Actually, the upside down arrow was drawn in live ants. I don't know if you know. Yeah, oh, there you go. That's no wonder it was wiggling.

Okay, that explains it. Sometimes it's a right side up arrow. It just depends on the day. So no matter what they did, they kept finding ants everywhere and they just, they couldn't stop it. I've never had to deal with a long-term ant infestation, but we had one one time at my mom's house

and it was disgusting. Same, we had them at my mom's growing up. Ugh, I don't know what, like, they were like in your bags of bread and like in your food. It was like so gross. They go everywhere. They're so tiny, they can get in anything. If I recall it was pretty easy to like I would rather have ants than roaches but like I'm speaking to you so I this is not any news to you. They were both gross. But I feel like ants are less like viscerally horrifying you know.

They feel like you get less like diseases from them or something. Yeah they feel less dangerous somehow like I don't know because the like, oh, they're going to a picnic in my head. They're carrying little crumbs of muffin. Yeah. Look how strong he is. Yeah. They're trying to feed the queen. Don't worry about it.

But I will say, I think it was pretty easy. Like I remember we would use chalk and they like don't go over chalk lines. Same with Sharpie marker apparently. Oh, so yeah, I think they're easier than roaches to like navigate. To trick. Yeah, to bamboozle. To bamboozle. I, you know, there was, and also like my mom had like,

she doesn't still have them, I don't think. No, she doesn't. But at the time she had like granite countertops that was like all the rage in the early 2000s. But it was like, so it's dark gray and speckled. So you couldn't see anything. You just like would put your hand down and you'd feel. Ugh, yuck.

Yeah. Anyway, I can't tolerate that. So these ants were all over the place. They could not get rid of them no matter what they did. And around the same time as the ants showed up, Gene started feeling watched all the time in their house. By thousands of tiny eyes who were waiting for him to drop a cup of bread.

Yeah, I bet. Actually in hindsight, I'm like, were they haunted or were they just feeling little antennae? Yeah, exactly, sensing their presence. Tenae. Yeah, exactly. So, okay, so they've got these bugs, they've got this weird tree, they're having cold spots and they feel like they're being watched. I'm assuming Ben also felt like he was being watched, but Jean is the one who I was the one talking about this.

So I'm assuming it was both of them. Soon she starts falling into these really dark moods, which she starts falling into a depression for no reason. And she hadn't had that experience, I guess, in the past. So this was a new thing she was going through. They thought it would help to get away for a while. And so they went on this annual trip they always go on to Montana. So they went to Montana, and while they were away from the house, she was feeling really good. But as soon as they got back to the house,

she was feeling like shit again. So, which I feel like is such a trope in these haunted houses of like, it starts to like infect you, or it starts to sit with you whenever you're nearby. So it helped to be away, but now she's feeling like crap again once they get home. So as a gift to kind of lighten her spirits

or keep her company, one of her daughters buys her a little finch, a little bird. Aw. And Jean ends up really loving the bird and actually buying a second one. And the two birds have babies. Oh my goodness. They love each other.

And so Ben and Jean are, you know, they got these pet birds. They're trying to make do with what they, they're trying to make the best of this because this is a classic haunted house story where they cannot afford to move. They've invested everything into the house. Invested everything.

And also like so far, it's not all that bad. I mean, they feel like they're being watched. It doesn't seem clear that it's the house yet. Like I feel like they don't, yeah, they don't necessarily know that's what's causing it. She could have thought she was depressed because she was going through an adjustment period with moving into the house, or she was overwhelmed with like

there being a bug infestation. But it has nothing to do with the house so far. So they're just trying to, I guess, get Gene in a better mood and deal with these ants. Now they've got these little birds they're taking care of too. So while Ben and Jean are acclimating to this new home, one day they realized that their land now also has like these weird sunken spots that won't go away

in the land. And so they were trying to, I guess she was trying to garden and there were certain areas in the ground that was just kind of like sunken and it wasn't taking the plants well. Or- Oh, I see where this is going immediately. Okay, took me a little while, but I get it.

And also anytime she would plant anything, it would die immediately. Like the soil was just not good. Oh no, that's not a good sign. So they would try to fill in these sunken holes in the ground and every time they would, it just, it almost looked like they were sinking even more. Like they just wouldn to fill in these sunken holes in the ground. And every time they would, it just, it almost looked like they were sinking even more.

Like, they just wouldn't fill up. So eventually the couple just said like, okay, we're just gonna have to tolerate the fact that we have patchy land. And one day, Jean decides that she's going to plant a rose bush on part of the property that looked like it had good soil. Oh, girl.

She starts digging, and all of a sudden, there are several crows flying above her. And truly out of an Alfred Hitchcock movie, they swoop down on her and start attacking her. Oh my God! Okay, that's literally the plot of an Alfred Hitchcock movie. Of birds. Yeah.

They literally swoop down, they're cawing and scratching at her and pecking at her and totally freaking out on top of her. And she runs inside. They're protecting something. Well, so when she runs inside, she looks back and sees that they have flown into the hole that she had been digging and they're cawing loudly for no reason. Inside the hole? Oh no. This was all very validating, I'm assuming for Jean, that like, okay, I'm allowed to be creeped out

about this fucking place. And around the same time, the house also starts having very weird power outages, where only one room would go out at a time, even though they're all like on the same power, like breaker box. And so one thing that they would also start noticing is every day around 5 a.m. they would smell coffee. And the house, the toilets in the house started flushing themselves all the time.

Even in front of guests. This wasn't like a secret thing. Weird. Okay. So even in front of guests, the toilets would flush and the guests are just making fun of it. Just being like, you've got some weird water thing going on in your house. Wacky. Yeah. Their granddaughter even was quoted saying, the toilets used to flush on their own. And as the water went down, I could hear almost conversations. You could hear people murmuring to themselves. It was something that wanted to be heard. themselves. It was something that wanted to be heard. It was also quoted later that in the house people would see shadows sliding along the walls followed by whispered words

and a putrid smell. Oh my Lord. Then they started seeing two specific shadows, like shadowy figures that would dart around and they could like recognize them based on that shadow. So they would hear footsteps so loudly that they thought an intruder was in the house. They started, I think, sleeping with a gun. And Jean would even watch her tchotchkes move around on the shelf. At this point, the ghosts were shameless. Like she was watching. She said that they looked like they were just dancing by themselves. They just didn't care anymore. So I think, I don't know if it was the crows,

that was the thing that like woke her up and like thing, like she tapped into something where everything was more willing to show itself. Maybe digging into that hole. Yeah. Released everything. Yeah, maybe digging into the property is like, that was like, okay, like now we're gonna mess with you.

Oh God. But anyway, so once that happened, that's when this whole slew of like real activity started kicking in. One night, Ben was outside and he swears that through the window, he saw a darkness come out of the window and move towards him. From outside of the, he was outside of the house.

He was outside and through the window, he saw darkness pass through the glass and charge at him. Even when I walk the dog at night, I'm afraid to glance up at my own house because I'm like, if I see something in there and Blaze isn't home. Game over. Yeah, I just, that would be the ultimate freaky freak.

You know what really freaks me out is eventually when we have a studio, the way it would be placed is like we would be able to see it from downstairs. Oh. And I'm always, and that's where I keep all of our ghost equipment. And I'm like, I swear to God, I know one day. Oh, shivers.

I know one day I would see something and I wouldn't know if it was an intruder or a ghost and I wouldn't know which one I'd prefer. Yeah, bad news either Yeah, bad news. You're right. Bad news. So anyway, to anything, don't do that in the future. You're not alone. Please just stay, stay away. Anyway, so yeah, he's now seeing things like darkness float towards him. Another time he saw two figures, this is a quote from him, walk backwards into the den.

Ew! Sorry, that really grosses me out for some reason. I hate it. They started heading, this is still the rest of the quote, he saw them walk backwards into the den. They started heading down the hall to Jean, and it was standing a foot and a half from the end of her bed. The only thing I really thought was,

they ain't messing with my wife. And as I dove through it, I felt a sticky cold sensation in my body. Sticky cold. That's a new one. Yeah, I hate that. That feels almost like what people describe like that spider webby feeling,

but like cold, you know? Ooh. I do appreciate that his like instinct was just dive into this thing. Just like fucking nail it. Charge at it. I like how both of our instincts would be like, I'm just going to walk over here and text M.

I would literally be like, no thank you. Please go away. Excuse me. I kind of wonder, I feel like there's, especially if it's intelligent enough to be walking through and then end up at the foot of your bed It must be smart enough to know you're behind it But how like the fact that he like snuck up on a ghost is crazy. That's yeah. Yeah That feels like something you can't do I get my mind they're all knowing I wonder okay

I wonder if like they're just so hyper focused on gene that like he's not even part of the formula Oh, yeah, like he just happened to witness this happening again, and he was like I'm gonna charge in I don't know I don't know. It seems like they're more obsessed with gene at this point. I Think that's a good point. Yeah, and Oh man, what was I gonna say? Anyway, whatever so they're going through all this stuff. They have power outages, their toilets are flushing by themselves, they are... Insert creepy fucking thing here. People are walking backwards throughout their house.

I mean, that part, I think alone is the creepiest to me so far. I mean, it's... And then they've got these bug infestations, they've got these weird crows, they've got these sunken holes in their ground, the water faucets are turning on and off, the TVs are turning on and off by themselves, they're hearing voices. And soon the dark energy starts attacking their extended family. So Ben at a nowhere starts having severe asthma attacks, even though they're like an older couple and they've never, he's never had asthma before.

And they moved for her allergies, not his. Right. He's like, wait a minute, we got to go again. It's like, now I need Claritin. So he had her allergies, not his. Right. He's like, wait a minute, we gotta go again. It's like, now I need Claritin. So he starts having asthma, like really bad asthma. Then all three of their kids announce that they're getting divorced at the same time. They're all going through divorces now.

What? Wait, can you imagine that dinner? Like, they're all like, I have something to say. I also have something to say. I also have something to say. Wait a minute. You always one up me. Mine will be more expensive.

Yeah, the middle child's like, great. Once again, I'm just left out in the cold. So he's now having health issues. The kids are getting divorced. One of their daughters also ends up experiencing mental health issues, which ultimately leads them to adopting or taking in their granddaughter. Okay. And their granddaughter's name is Carly.

And when she moves in, by the way, she also starts noticing like cold spots and getting nightmares and things like that. Oh no. Then on top of that, this is sad. Then Gene's mom is diagnosed with cancer. Gene's brother is diagnosed with cancer. Oh my God. Gene's brother gets a phone call that his granddaughter is is diagnosed with cancer. Oh my God. Jeanne's brother gets a phone call

that his granddaughter is now diagnosed with cancer. What? Then Ben and Jeanne's daughter, who's in her early twenties, calls them and says she was just diagnosed with cancer. What the fuck is going on? Mom, brother, great niece, daughter. The timing alone, like that is after.

Back to back to back to back to back to back. Yeah. And one of them is diagnosed with cancer. One of them's dealing with mental health issues where she has to kind of like, you know. Give up custody. Give up custody. And like, and they're also both going through divorces

at the same time. Oh my God. And another one's going through a divorce. I mean, it's just like, fuck Ben's asthma at that point, right? Right, I know, he's just trying to be included. Yeah. So besides being overwhelmed with all that information,

Ben and Jean are like, this is too fucking weird. Like something is going on. It's like infecting our family. And they've got to feel, I would imagine, that like, even if they can't quite put words to why it's the house, I bet you they feel it. Something's very off, you know? Yeah, as soon as they moved into that house

and they felt like something was weird, and now everything around them is having really bad luck. Falling apart? Yeah. Like health and wealth is all bad. Yeah, and there's no proving that it's the property, but I would still have just like beyond guilt. And then on top of that, you can't afford to move.

So in my mind, I would think if I could move, I could fix everyone and heal everyone, which is like half crazy thinking, but also desperate thinking in like a time like that. And so I would also be dealing with this great shame that like I'm the reason all my family is going through this. So you probably don't feel great yourself.

So you're like, you're not in the best position to help. You're already feeling down. And at the same time, she's already dealing with like intense depression before all that happened. And now she has to like, like almost like step up and like even advanced while trying to support and this is all that all very bad so on top of all that then her bird family that she's raising one of the adult birds attacks all the others out of nowhere this is like their his babies or her babies oh no and all the birds die

except two then I think it was later that day, Jean felt like something was wrong near the Finch cage. She was like, something's wrong. So she lifted up the cover of the cage and the last two were also dead and covered in ants. Oh! Ooh, ah! What the fuck?

There were also no ants anywhere else in the room. They seemingly appeared out of nowhere in the cage. Yeah, like were they flying into the cage? I guess they climb up the walls, but ooh. Yeah. And then on top of all of this, Ben has a heart attack. Oh! He survives.

Wow, okay, I take it back that he was just trying to feel included. Sounds like he really was also going through it. Yeah. Well, you didn't know yet, but no, so he has a heart attack. He does survive, but he has a heart attack. A while later, Gene's brother, one of the people who had been diagnosed with cancer, he passes away, but one of the last things he said to them was to move because something was very wrong with that house. Oh, no. Oh, do you think he had like that near... Sorry, if you see scratch marks on my neck,

it's because I was doing it. I had an itch and I have terrible hives and eczema, so it's not a ghost. No, I agree with you. I feel like he might have had some sort of like... Like clarity or something? Something from the other side or, yeah. I feel like close to death, you know?

Maybe you get like a little inkling of what's really going on. Totally. Totally. Oh. After he passed, Jean got a phone call later where she heard a man wheezing and like gasping for air. And then she hears her now dead brother's voice on the phone, just say the word you and then the phone hangs up.

Oh no. Eventually, Jean's dad is also diagnosed with cancer. Oh my God, I can't win. So she's got a mom, a dad, a brother, a daughter. I mean, name every type of way you could be related to somebody and they're all dealing with like sickness in some way. This is horrifying, like the worst kind of sickness.

Both of her parents, a sibling and her kid all have cancer and her husband has a heart attack. I mean, that's, you can't get worse than that. And her birds are like cannibalizing each other practically. I mean, Jesus. And all of her birds are dead. Which was like, which it feels actually like very symbolic that it was like one of the only things giving her joy.

I know. And they killed that. I know that, cause when you said they got a pet bird, I was like, something terrible is gonna happen to these birds. It's like, it feels like too easy for some dark entity to be like, oh, easy. I'll just knock those off too while I'm at it, you know? Then they got a puppy.

I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I swear to God, you see my hives, they're reappearing. But no, so she hears her brother's voice on the phone saying you, which then you wonder like, was that really her brother's voice on the phone saying, you, which then you wonder, was that really her brother's ghost coming through? Was that a doppelganger trying to fuck with her and make her think about her brother? Was it just a guy who fucking actually was having an asthma attack and just said you

and called the wrong number? But at the same time, it's like there have been trickster ghosts out there who just want to torment you. And like, what if they just wanted to make you suffer a little more? And I've heard those stories too, where people are, who have passed, like can communicate. Thank you. Sorry, I asked Blaze to bring me a beer because I'm high Blaze. Hi Blaze.

He says, yeah, silent wave. Classic. He's like, you can't trick me. You can't trick me. So he said hi in Capricorn. Got it. Yeah, in Blasphemy. But also he's like, you know, so professional.

He's like, I don't want to mess up the audio. He's a good man. What a gem. He even opened the can for me. That was nice. How's his face? Is it still cracked in half? Yeah, but he broke a rib.

So, you know, we're just moving on for one thing to the next. Anyway, what was I going to say? So, you know, we're just moving on from one thing to the next. Anyway. What was I going to say? Oh, have you heard those stories where people call from the afterlife, like they like where you can almost use technology and like it often sounds very far away and staticky. So like maybe he was trying to call to like warn them. And he just couldn't get the full sentence out or like, you know,

couldn't say the full like you need to leave or know, couldn't say the full, like you need to leave or something. In the beginning, the middle or the end of the sentence. Yeah, like you have to leave the house, but like it won't you, I don't know. I just had another thought, cause I've heard that a lot of times right after someone dies, they're able to communicate with like technology pretty quickly.

I don't know if that's true, but. No, it's a great point. I've heard really cool stories about people calling, even if it's just calling and it says their name, and then when you answer, there's nobody there. There's a blank or a blank text message with nothing in it, and it's from your dead mom or whatever. I've definitely heard those. So creepy.

So cool, but so creepy. So reassuring in a lot of cases and so terrifying in some. If you die and don't send me at least one text, I swear to God. I'm gonna Snapchat you, but you have to remember your password first to get, I actually don't. No, that's how you're gonna haunt me.

You're gonna make me have all the incorrect passwords. All the passwords are gonna be like, I love Lemon, and you're gonna have to type them out over and over and over again. Well, so remember their granddaughter Carly that they took in. So she's also experiencing things in the house. One night she hears footsteps by her bed,

and her cat named Smokey was visibly ready to attack something. Like it was very clear this cat could see something that we couldn't. After that night, this cat became weirdly fiercely protective of Carly. And then one day, of course, went missing. When he came back a few days later, his behavior had completely changed. He refused to be touched by anyone. He refused to eat or drink. And he essentially was wasting away. Oh, no. And the vets didn't totally have an explanation.

They were like, he, honestly, it sounds like that cat also had cancer. It sounds like the cat got sick and like couldn't eat and was like getting really skinny and like- Just like debilitated almost, yeah. Yeah, or maybe the cat had like rabies or something. I don't know, but like it sounds like the cat now also has an illness, so no living creature is safe. Yeah, it feels like it's just toxic

So they ended up having to put the cat down. Oh so sad Two years into this at this point it's now 1982 and at this point in time other families have now started move to move on to the block because remember they were the only people living there at first and now the subdivision is kind of filling up and people are moving in. And one of the houses is now lived in by the Haney family. I think I'm saying that right. Sam and Judith Haney. And they wanted to install a pool in their yard.

Good luck. Wear a helmet. There's a lot of birds. Wear a life jacket. Wear a fucking hazmat suit. I don't know. Wear a helmet that makes you float actually. Yeah, I'm really nervous about these birds. Can you imagine a crossing, like a whole,

just a big pool of water and you're in there, like you know you can't run as fast in water. You're fucked. I'm so sorry, but you're fucked. So they decide they want to install a pool in their yard. They call a construction company to start doing what they got to do. And I guess a local who was driving by, his name is Lester Ressler. Are you kidding me?

No, it's not. He comes to the house and he says, hey, I noticed y'all were doing some yard work and I just wanted to let you know. Oh, you sound just like him. Holy shit. Hey, I noticed y'all were doing some yard work. Did I say that?

Sorry. No, I love it. I felt like I was there. As soon as I said Lester Ressler, I was like, I'm in the zone. Right in character. Well, he was like, I felt like I was there. As soon as I said Lester wrestler, I was like, I'm in the zone. Right in character. Well, he was like, I saw that y'all were doing yard work and I wanted to let you know I'm a local in the area.

And since I've been around a while, I thought I should let you know that before you dig up any of that ground, there are graves back there. Oh my, so is he just driving around waiting for somebody to start excavating so he can give them the big news? I feel like he's been waiting his whole life to use this information.

To impart this wisdom, yes, 100%. So he showed them, he said, oh, there's at least two graves I know of and they're over here, come follow me in your own backyard. Okay, Lester, geez. And so he points to this one spot and he says, I, I know that there's two graves there. And the Haney's were like,

is this guy just like, did he just stumble upon our property? And he's just like fucking with us or like, is like, who would make this up? Like that'd be really cruel. So they tell their construction company, like, Hey, bring a, bring a whatever it's called excavator, whatever it's called, and start digging up this area. We want to see like if this guy's telling the truth. Very quickly, they found a pine coffin sticking out and sticking out of that coffin was a human hand with two wedding rings on its finger.

Oh. So the sheriff comes out and collects samples. I even saw one source said that they tried to like get fragments of the bone and it was so old or so fragile that like when they would touch it, it just turned to dust. Synegrate? Oh no. So they took some samples and they just gave the Haney's the two rings that they found in this. Oh good. You can have this. Thank Oh, good. You can have this.

Thank you so much. You can have this thing that's now above ground now that we've desecrated a grave. Put it in your little trinket box. Don't worry about it. Wear it. When you go swimming in the pool that we dug up. Yeah.

So the Haney's wanted to... I mean, they were obviously really... They were very clearly, they've done interviews and stated that they felt so uncomfortable about this. They were like, we should not have these fucking rings. We shouldn't have touched these bodies. We should have not bothered this area at all.

And they wanted to honor the couple who was buried there. So they set out to learn who these people were so they could put a marker on the graves. And they eventually got in touch with this guy named Jasper Norton. And he was also a local for a long time. And so Jasper and Lester, you don't say. I bet he was like, Lester Ressler, you met him? Okay. He's my arch nemesis.

Arch nemesis ever since third grade. So, so Jasper told them, I don't know how they got in touch with Jasper, but- I'm sure he also just showed up, to be honest. Through the grapevine, I guess Jasper found them. Who rescued who? And so Jasper says, oh yeah, those two graves. He found them.

Well, you know those are not the only two graves. Fun fact, the entire subdivision is sitting on top of what used to be called Black Hope Cemetery. Why did Lester bury the lead and say that there's a grave here, bye? And the Jeff was like, oh sorry, did he not tell you there's a hundred graves? Like what?

Why would Lester leave them hanging like that? I think Lester was hoping that he would get a recurring feature in their lives. Oh, I see. Like, oh, call me for more, you know, tidbits. Yeah, okay. It's like, I'll come back every three days until you a new secret. Oh, I see, yeah.

But so Jasper's like, no, no, the entire place. Like, if you thought you shouldn't build the pool there, you wanted to build it in the front yard? No, body's there too. Oh, no. So it turned out that this land was once a, yikes, cotton plantation that later became land designated for sharecropping. And so a lot of black sharecroppers lived on this property

and they didn't live far from this area. So when they would die, it also became a cemetery. And then, Kelsa Preeze, then nobody documented it at all. And there was a bunch of unmarked graves of black people. And then a new subdivision gets built right on top of them. Go figure. That sounds about right. Sounds like America to me.

So apparently, according to Jasper, there were up to 60 graves of formerly enslaved people on this property. Holy shit. With the last burial being in 1939, which at the time of the story was only 44 years ago. Yeah, wow. Which means, and if you wanted to equate it

to like the eighties now. Yeah, ooh, ooh, that is weird. Yes, that puts it in perspective. So Jasper knew about the bodies here because he had personally dug some of the graves. Oh, he's like, oh, that's my handiwork. He was like, I could actually walk you over here and here and here and here and here and here,

and I dug them all up. Wouldn't you say this is a very well done grave that I dug? Yeah, you didn't even know, except for all the massive sinkholes that I left. Yeah, oopsie. Which like, talk about like getting a lead source to come and tell you everything that's going on.

Just a primary source, yeah. He's like, I literally am the ones who put the bodies in the ground. I know what's going on here. So people in Turd here, I guess this is all according to Jasper, people in Turd here often couldn't afford headstones. So families would mark their graves

with whatever they could. So sometimes they would put a small fence somewhere, they would make their own headstones, or they would just put a stone there and call it a headstone. And other people put markers on trees. Oh my god. Okay. Okay. And now when you think about it, an arrow upside down is pointing to the ground and the two lines look like a coffin. Okay, when you first said the two lines,

I was like, oh, like a coffin. Then I was like, that doesn't make any sense, Christine. And then I just moved on. Yeah, so it's to say under this tree is a coffin. Oh my God. He was able to, this is Jasper we're talking about, not only was he able to describe the types of markings, he remembers being here at some point,

but he also was able to list at least 19 of the 60 people who were buried on this property. And the Hainies discovered that the two bodies they found, with the rings on their finger, they were Betty and Charlie Thomas. Whoa. And so the Hainies started looking for descendants of them, but couldn't find anyone alive. And so the Haney's started looking for descendants of them, but couldn't find anyone alive.

And so they kind of took it upon themselves to look after their graves. That's hard too, because it's pre-internet, obviously, and pre-23andMe, very obviously, but also, or ancestry, you know, that kind of thing, those tools. But like also, even with a name like Thomas, that's such a common name, Betty or Betsy or Betty.

Betty. Yeah, I imagine that would be in the eighties, especially a very difficult kind of project. And the early eighties too, it was 82. Yeah, that feels like a very difficult project to embark on. Which actually, you know, it's so interesting is from now to then as the exact same time period

between then and when the last body was buried on that property. So it would be like us trying to find ancestors of our descendants of people who died in the 80s. Yeah. Oh, that's weird. Yeah. That's very weird.

So, and I bet in the 80s they were like, we have so many tools now to find ancestors. Right, like this should be a cinch. A breeze, there's things called, I don't know, genealogy libraries, now we're like, oh no, I don't have to leave my couch. There's things called one historian, three states over. Yeah, exactly.

So anyway, the Hainies were like, it's now on us that we are going to be, as an apology to desecrating their graves, we're going to take care of them and make sure that they have a proper marker and make sure that we don't disturb them again. Meanwhile, keep in mind, at the same time, Ben and Jean are having their whole beyond crisis, only a few houses over. Now the Haney's are realizing there's bodies. And at the time,

because they had a sheriff come out, they had a coroner come out, so neighbors start talking and they're like, what the hell's going on? Everyone realizes there's fucking bodies all over their property. It's about time. They're like, what are you talking, and all these people are brand new. Remember, they all moved into the subdivision within the last year or two.

And you think, like, and we talk about this, but you think you buy a new build or you build your own house, like it's gotta be pretty ghost-funky, you would think. You would hope, you would hope. But all of them are like, what the fuck do you mean there's bodies everywhere? Why didn't anyone warn us about this,

that this used to be a cemetery? So I don't know, chicken or the egg, did people have these experiences before or after realizing there were dead bodies everywhere? But neighbors start reporting also having things go on in their home. So again, I don't know if that was before or after the rumors, but feeling guilty for desecrating the graves,

the Haney's specifically, they reburied the two people, the Betty and Charlie Thomas. Sam even built a new coffin for them in line. It was satin. Oh, that's nice. And then they marked the spot with a flower garden and openly apologized to Betty and Charlie saying, we're so sorry,

we did not mean to do this. And unfortunately, none of that seemed to be enough because very quickly after that, did activity pick up in their home. Oh shoot, I was about to say, well, they're probably the only ones who didn't get haunted, but I guess not. You would think, right?

I was like, if I were them, I would have been like, whoo, we are safe tonight. That feels like the exact proper steps to take. Yep. And you know, it's like, it's interesting because Jean already felt something was off, but didn't really have to deal with activity until she started digging the ground.

And now even as nice as they are being and as kind as they're being, shit didn't happen until they dug the ground. They've disturbed the ground, yes. Wow, maybe it doesn't matter what they do. For example, in the Haney residence, after they thought that everything was now put to rest, and thank God they just stepped totally out

of the harm's way of dealing with ghosts because they'd never seen a ghost up until now. Ha, we're probably fine. One night, Judith's unplugged alarm clock starts sparking like it's about to catch on fire. Oh no. Then Judith hears the sliding glass door open, which is locked.

They hear it open by itself. And then they hear a man say, whatcha doin'? Ooh! Then within the next 24 hours, she's looking for her favorite red shoes in her closet. They have disappeared. And she's looking everywhere for them and found them on Betty's grave. And this is when she realized with the research

she had done that it was Betty's birthday. And someone forgot to get her a gift and thought they'd be sneaky and climb into her closet. Well they literally decided the way that they were going to frame it in their head is, oh, Charlie's gifting Betty a birthday present. Yeah, that seems like what's happening. And I think I would have done the same thing to like make it light hearted, be like, ha ha ha, but don't do that again. Yeah, happy birthday, but like, you can have my shoes, but please don't come back in my house. Next 365 days, let's keep it down. So the Haney's quickly realized that they were not going to be able to sell this house ever because it's on top of a cemetery of formerly enslaved people, which, wow, that's, uh,

and it sounds like they have a little more, um, integrity, yeah. Then like some people who would be like, well, we just won't tell, you know, especially in the eighties, like in today's world, this would be like, I don't know if it'd be huge news, but people would find out and it would be, people would have certain opinions today that, I don't know if everyone in the 80s had. And I'm sure there are more regulations now too.

They realized like, man, the place is haunted now. We are just sitting on top of bodies. Even if we wanted to leave, I don't know if we ever can because how are we going to sell this? so they get lawyers involved and they basically say? We accept the fact that like we're never gonna be able to sell this property. We're stuck here forever But we are seeking financial compensation from the company that sold us this house because they should have told us. Yes They also fun fact which I love this on top, they said, and while you're at it, we're gonna fight for legal protections

for all the bodies that are in charge here. Yes, thank you. They don't wanna just dump them and leave and let somebody else deal with it, you know? Yeah. Good for them. Well, so this is when other neighbors started chiming in, being like, yeah, well, remember we said

we were also experiencing things? Here's some of the shit we've been dealing with. They've been getting grabbed by hands that they can't see. Doors have been opening and closing. Their pets have also mysteriously been dying. They would hear weird sounds. They would see strange lights. They'd see full body apparitions. Their TVs and water faucets would turn on and off. Items around their house are moving by themselves.

And I mean, I think it was just to push that they were backing the Haney's being like, we all feel stuck in this. At the same time, Ben and Jean from the first house, they are also pursuing legal action, but their lawyer says, actually your neighbors, the Haney's did it first, let's see how this pans out and then we'll do a lawsuit. Oh, I see, okay's let them start the precedent.

Exactly. So bringing it back to Ben and Jean, we're kind of, we're not totally done with the Haney story, but we're going to go back to Ben and Jean for a second. So while all this is going on with the Haneys over at Ben and Jean's house, remember Jean's brother has now passed away from cancer. Exactly a year after that her dad has now died from cancer. Oh my god. Her mom is still dealing with cancer and now Ben's mom has also been diagnosed with cancer. Boy vey, okay. And Carly, their granddaughter, has gotten a second cat who also went missing, came back wasting away, and died. This is so tragic, all of this. wasting away and died. This is so tragic, all of this.

Their daughter who had cancer actually recovers from cancer but then ends up getting a rare infection that's attacking her heart. Oh my God, so it's like she finally beat it and then whatever was attaching to her was like, nope, take it away. Well, if you beat that one, I'll just throw another one at you.

We'll try again. After all this, Jean said that she felt contaminated by the energy. She thought she would never be normal again, which you're already not gonna be normal because once you lose so many family members, your world's already off its axis. So you're definitely never gonna be normal again,

but this certainly doesn't help. No. And at this point, she decided that the evil that she was feeling was maybe not the vengeful spirits, but just general residual energy caused by what had gone on there. I think she was trying to learn to forgive the spirits and it's like, it's not them. It's just the history of this place. Right, right, right. Like there's already just negativity built into the history. It doesn't need to come from the individuals. Yeah. Okay.

I guess that's what she's hoping at least. I don't know. Yeah. But she not only felt terrified for her own family, she was also, and her neighbors, but she was also, she felt responsible, I think probably from seeing what the Haney's were up to. I think she also felt obligated to speak up for the bodies buried in the area, that like,

why would you build a fucking development on top of us? Yeah, it's pretty fucked up, honestly. And so Ben and Jean, they still couldn't afford to leave their home in Texas. They had actually put what they could down on a property in Montana, and they were just like, we'll make it work. The double whammy too of like all these illnesses,

it's like they're probably drowning in medical bills too. So it's like, they don't even have the opportunity to save up for a new house. Like they're probably drowning in medical bills too. So it's like they don't even have the opportunity to save up for a new house. Like they're stuck. They were even saying that they like, one of their stressors was just like, they were the only quote healthy people in the family. Like they were maybe not expected,

but they felt obligated again to be a support, you know? Yes, totally. And they never planned on having to raise another child now they're raising their granddaughter. Like I don't, I mean, there was, support, you know? Yes, totally. And they never planned on having to raise another child now they're raising their granddaughter. Like, I don't, I mean, there was, there was no getting out of it. So they also eventually pursue a settlement with the development's insurers, but the insurers said that, well, we are not responsible for compensating you. And maybe if there was proof of this cemetery, we would insure you or we would pay you back.

But because this property was never registered with the county, the cemetery doesn't exist. So it's not our fault that we didn't know about it. That makes sense. And so keep in mind, they had the older locals giving full testimonies about how they openly, for no reason except out of general kindness, genuine kindness, they approached these people and said everything that they said.

Warned them, yeah. Warned them. So the older locals are saying what they knew about and what they experienced. A woman comes forward who is testifying as the daughter of someone who once owned the land and can confirm there was a cemetery. Oh, shit. Okay. And the Haney's had Betty and Charlie's literal bodies, which were like written up by the sheriff in the corner that their graves exist. Right, they found the graves. Yeah. Still wasn't enough. Great. They were just dodging, dod dodging those are they great lawyers

So when Ben suggested digging up more bodies to prove its existence, which like is kind of wild But he was like, what do you need me to do? Like go dig some of these fucking bodies out of the grave to like yeah prove that there was a cemetery It was this like loophole where it was like well, it's illegal to desecrate graves So on so if you go looking for graves, then you're just going to go to jail. Oh, come on. So you better not dig up graves and therefore we get to keep saying the cemeteries, the cemetery doesn't exist.

So fucked. So at that point, Jean loses her shit, which I don't totally blame her. And she was like, I don't give a shit if it's illegal. I want to prove to you that there's a cemetery. I'm going to go to this big ass oak tree that says there's a coffin underneath and I'm going to dig up the body here. And so she started digging and her, one of her daughters who was there, the one with the cancer and heart condition, she was helping her dig and said like, mom, you go lie down, like I'll take a shift digging and then we'll swap. So she starts digging.

30 minutes into her digging, she comes in and feels really sick. And very soon she is on the floor begging her mom to take care of her children. Oh! And Jean remembers watching Tina's eyes glaze over. And two days later, she was dead from a heart attack. Holy shit.

Gene says I realized that I had desecrated another grave and now I'm paying for it. I told Ben we have to get out of here it doesn't matter anymore. Which every single person that's had something like this it's because they literally went out and started digging the graves. So. Yes, yes, it's a pattern. So Ben and Jean, they were like, I don't even care if we can't afford this anymore, I have to get out of here. They both just flee to Montana.

Like desperate. And then they ended up moving back to Texas, but in a different area. And they said that for the rest of time, they never had any more issues. Imagine calling the doctor from Montana and being like, I need you to forward my medical records to this new doctor. And he's like, oh, why'd you leave?

I thought you were my patient still. I'd be like, turn on the TV. You'll see. Your dumbass advice caused all this. Yeah. There was more going on than my allergies. So they ended up moving away. They never had any more paranormal issues,

which is great. And then the Haney's, on the other hand, they ended up moving away. They never had any more paranormal issues, which is great. And then the Haney's, on the other hand, they ended up winning their lawsuit and developers paid them somewhere near like one hundred thirty thousand dollars in damages. But then it was overturned and the Haney's were ordered to pay the developers. Oh, please. Oh, please. So they literally declared bankruptcy and also moved off. So it's like, yeah, really, it's just everyone's screwed by this place. Yeah. So they both just fucking left.

Eventually a bunch of other neighbors also left because they couldn't tolerate it. And they saw from Ben and Jean and Sam and Judith that why even try a lawsuit? They're not going to do anything. So a bunch of people just fucking left the development. Holy shit. In 1991, Ben and Jean wrote a book called The Black Hope Horror. And a year later, the book was adapted into a TV movie

called Grave Secrets, The Legacy of Hilltop Drive. And then Unsolved Mysteries did an episode in season 12 of them. And the Black Hope haunting is often mistaken, fun fact, for the inspiration of the movie Poltergeist, because they both have to do with graves on the property. And there's a pool involved in both stories. But that's not true. Apparently Poltergeist is based off of a New York story. And this is Texas. So most residents today say that they don't have any trouble in the neighborhood with any activity, that there was nothing there. In fact, in 2007,

an article from the Houston Chronicle proclaimed publicly that the neighborhood was officially not haunted. Yeah, that's not a way to jinx it. Jesus. That being said, there was an article where they interviewed this longtime resident of the development named Walter Winches. So now we've got Lester, Jasper, and Walter. Okay. I know. Just making sure I got them all.

And even though apparently the neighborhood does not have any more ghosts, he said that he's had some odd encounters. One of them, he claims that a doppelganger walks around his house as his wife. What? Oh no, I don't like doppelgangers. Oh no. That he will literally watch his wife walk into the kitchen and then when he goes in to talk to her, the kitchen is empty and he'll find her sleeping in bed. That is one of my biggest creeper, creeper factors. Yucks, yucks, yucks. He also said that he has one of the same coffin-shaped sinkholes in his yard that never stays filled.

And apparently nowadays, if you look out into the woods that this development is near, there's always ghost hunters out there, so I'm sure they're helping stir shit up. Great. And my favorite quote from Walter, when he was asked to share more paranormal encounters, he said, I'll come in and set my keys and wallet down on the table and go take a shower.

And when I come back, the keys are hanging on the wall and money is always missing from my wallet. Then again, I've got a wife. Okay, Walter. So I guess your wife's just taking your loose change. And then there's another resident. I think she's still a current resident or she's at least a recent resident named Mary Anderson. And she and an organization called Respect Houston

have been working together to identify as many people buried here as possible and then reaching out to their relatives for them to decide what to do with the bodies. That's great. And today it is still very hard to find any information about Black Hope Cemetery because since there was no official record of it and since anyone that would have

known anything about it has now passed away, the only thing that was surviving for a long time was oral tradition and that's now gone away. So any older locals who would have remembered are gone now, and it's even harder than ever before to know anything other than really the story. So, but that's the Black Hope cemetery. Wow. Well, see, listen, you're doing good work here, keeping the story alive. The Lord's work, some might say. Some might. Me? Not me. Not me.

But yeah, I mean, I'm glad that you're at least sharing it and you know, that it's a one more source that the story can live on. So that's kind of cool. Yeah. Anyway, I really liked, you know, I was like, damn, that's a good one. I'm very- That is a fucking good one. Like I, I know Jim said he had heard of it. I certainly haven't. So. I'm very excited. I'm going to go watch the movie, I think, cause it's like, it's a cheapo 90s,

on Rotten Tomatoes, it's got like a rotten score. All the best movies do, yeah. Anyway, and then apparently I looked up on IMDB. I was like, is there any like fun movie trivia from it? There wasn't any trivia, but in like the is there any like fun movie trivia from it? There wasn't any trivia, but in like the goofs section, like the blooper section, apparently they have a scene where it's clearly like, you know, hyperbole

or exaggerated of the real thing that happened. But they have a scene where the granddaughter, I guess, wakes up in the middle of the night and there's like water flying everywhere. But you can see in the scene, like it keeps cutting away from her, but she's wearing like pool goggles so the water doesn't get in her eyes. Shut up. You can see the goggles. Okay, that's very fun. Looking forward to that.

That is a very fun little trivia fact. Wow, wow, that was a good one, Em, really. Thank you. I'm, that one's gonna stick with me, I think. Well, Em, I have an interesting one here for you today. This is the story of Julie Williams and Lolly Winans. And if you're wondering why I know how to pronounce Wynans, it's because this couple was actually mentioned in a little book called A Haunted Road Atlas Next Stop.

And I know- Who wrote that? Who wrote that? Somebody really smart. Me. Oh, that's right. But no one else. No one else.

And the reason I know is because I had to be called back into the recording studio to pronounce this name properly. Because I and every other YouTuber slash podcaster has said Winnins. And I guess the team at Andrews McMeal did a little digging and said, Nope, it's Wynins. So with that said, yes, this is referenced briefly in the book. However, this story is not really covered. It's just kind of a side mention of potential victims that some people have theorized were part of like a bigger serial murderer case.

But this part kind of sucks for me and for everyone and I'm sorry is that it was solved a couple months ago. No! I know. How dare someone actually get retribution and answers. No, it's just great. It's just the problem is now my reporting is probably inaccurate. So I apologize that it's on the record now that I- We can pretend there's no closure.

And then at the end, you can do like a surprise situation. No, no. And I am just so thrilled that it was closed, but I just, you know, I wanted to make sure we give it its justice, you know, here in this episode, if not in the book itself, but it's not really covered in the book. In the book, I mentioned their names as part of the

colonial Parkway murderers story. And so that's where they come up. But turns out totally different thing. So let's get into it. This is the story of Julie and Lolly. They met in the early 90s through a group called Woodswomen. And Woodswomen, aside from being a tongue twister, is a Minnesota based nonprofit

that was focused on giving women opportunities to get involved in wilderness adventure. Oh, fun. Yeah, so although they came from different backgrounds, both women loved the outdoors. It was like their thing. And Lolly, so I'll give you a little backstory on both of them.

Lolly grew up in Grosse Pointe, which is a very affluent city in Southeast Michigan. And her family was a wealthy. But despite that, Lolly did not have a happy nor a safe childhood. She actually, oh, she as a child would research ways to stay away from home as long as possible and for as long as possible. Yeah, because she was experiencing ongoing sexual abuse at home.

And so she spent weeks of her summers at overnight camps in the Blue Ridge Mountains. She even convinced her mother to allow her to attend a boarding school in Baltimore, far away, where she could be safe for at least a temporary, you know, bit of time. And as members of prestigious horse and hunting clubs, Lollie's family had kind of a tailored version of the outdoors in that it wasn't like roughing it, you know, it was more glamping style, like, you know, we just ride horses and very she-she. Sounds like my kind of having to be outside. I know, I know, it was more glamping style. Like, oh, we just ride horses and very she-she. Sounds like my kind of having to be outside. I know, I know.

I was like, I mean, everything else aside, I can get behind the, like, not the hunting nor the horses, but you know, eh, eh. A lap of luxury, but sunny? A lap of luxury could be a little better for me than the authentic wilderness. But can't blame Lolly because she felt like her whole life was not authentic, especially the connection to the outdoors.

And so she wanted a real connection with the wilderness. And so in 1989, she began attending Sterling College in Vermont and pursued an associates in environmental studies. And there she spent a lot of her time participating in a party scene that if she were anyone else probably would have gotten her expelled. But the Dean of Students knew very well that Lolly had had extreme difficulties back at home

with her family and was from a very unsafe and unhappy place. And she was so loved by the rest of her classmates that the Dean kind of gave her a break and said, you can stay even though you're partying and not doing your stepping up to the plate. But she got kind of a pass for that. So I thought that was kind of great.

She was just that kind of person. She was kind, outgoing, people liked her. And she would do odd jobs to support herself because even though her family was very wealthy, they didn't support her whatsoever financially. So in December, she went on a wilderness trip with her school and the temperatures plummeted below zero and they ended up pitching their tents in the snow.

And even though most people, including you and I would probably- Go home? Go home and do anything else and never leave our house again. Lolly was like, fuck yeah, this is the kind of outdoorsy-ness that I like. Okay. There's something for everyone and there's someone for everything. That's exactly right. And the Dean of Students later said that the trip gave her a new motivation,

a new drive in life. And so she decided to go on to study outdoor recreation and leadership at Unity College. And her focus is what we now call adventure therapy. And adventure therapy is, what she would do is she wanted to connect abuse and rape survivors to the outdoors and find healing in the wilderness, in the outdoors, which I thought was really, really great, especially considering her own background with sexual trauma. So now we're skipping over to Julie. So that was Lolly's backstory. Now, Julie Williams, she grew up in St. Cloud, Minnesota, and her mother was a nurse, her father was a funeral director, and she and her three siblings lived pretty comfortably

in a middle-class neighborhood. They spent a lot of time playing outdoors with other kids, the usual fishing, hiking, swimming with the cousins. They had a lake house time playing outdoors with other kids, you know, the usual like fishing, hiking, swimming with the cousins. They had a lake house they would go to. And Julie herself was very athletic. She was a tennis champion and she was big into sports at school. However, she was very much an introvert and she was very quiet. And so she spent more time observing than speaking and was very empathetic and empathic

and cared about others. And in high school, she actually became in high school, get this, she became fluent in Spanish and volunteered as a translator and advocate for Latina women living in shelters. Like in high school, she took that upon herself. And so that's just the kind of people that they were. So from a young age, Julie was very passionate about geology and she majored in geology at Carleton College. She spent her summers interning at geo-archaeology digs

in Rome, which is just so cool. I just, I love shit like that. I wanted to be an archeologist for so long. And then they told me- I had a phase where I wanted to do that. I definitely did. And then they were like, you're gonna have to write a lot of papers.

And I was like, I'd rather not. Yeah. And also like the digging. I don't know about that. Well, after your story just now, I'm like, I don't think I want to do that anymore. I think the digging I've moved on. I don't need to have any crow attacks on my radar. Yeah.

All right. So she would do these digs in Rome and she worked back home, she worked in the outdoor sector as a canoe guide and a wildlife technician. So if you can imagine these two crossing paths, love connection, right? Like they have everything,

they have similar backgrounds, they have similar interests, they love the outdoors, and they're marginalized people. They're both queer, they're both women, and they fell in love. So the two of them together were greatly admired by their peers, and they forged ahead in a field that typically is pretty fraught for women and other marginalized people. Even today, from what I've learned, there's quite a bit of sexuality-based

and gender-based harassment still in the outdoor industry, as I imagine there are in a lot of industries, everywhere from small businesses to the national parks. So as queer women in the 90s, this was kind of an uphill battle, so to speak. But Julie and Lolly were up to the task and were very dedicated to what they did and very in love. So in late May of 1996, Julie was preparing to move out of the apartment she shared with

her friend Derek and start a new job at Lake Champlain in Vermont. So she and Lolly decided, okay, well, we're making moves, we're moving out of our apartments, we're transitioning careers and schooling. Why don't we like ring in the summer with a big bang, we're gonna go on a trip to the Shenandoah National Park in Virginia. Love it.

So the Shenandoah National Park, 200,000 acres in the Blue Ridge Mountains, hosts 101 miles of the Appalachian Trail, a lot of back country to explore, just a beautiful area. The couple set out at the end of May, along with Julie's beloved golden retriever mix, whose name was Taj. And Julie promised Derek, her roommate, that she would be home in time to pack up her room and move out by May 31st because they, you know, apartment living in college, you need your deposit back.

She says, I'll be back to move my shit out. Don't worry about it. So May 21st, it's a Wednesday, Julie and Lolly stop at a park office to renew their back country permits, which is a requirement for all hikers and campers traveling in the park's wilderness areas. They register their vehicle and their equipment, and they plan to leave the park and head home

on Monday, May 27th, which would be plenty of time to get their stuff out by the 31st. But the 27th came and went, and Derek is getting teed off because he's thinking, shit, like she's just going to leave me hanging here. Like I can't, I don't want to clean out her whole half of the apartment, you know? And like, where am I going to put it? You know? And so he's a little bit PO'd and he was like, there is no way we're going to have time and we're not going to get our security deposit back. This sucks. So on May 30th, the day before they need to move out, he calls Julie's parents back in Minnesota. Their names are Tom and Patsy,

and is like, where the hell is Julie? Like she needs to move her stuff out. And her parents say, we have not heard from her. And that's bad news. Uh-oh. Julie was the most reliable person any of her friends knew. If she said she was gonna be back by the 31st, she was gonna be back by the 31st.

So when she wasn't, and apparently seemed to blow off Derek and her responsibilities, her parents and her friends knew something was very wrong. So Tom tried to contact a sheriff near the park, but he was redirected to the park office, which was closed for the night. And at the time, apparently national parks

are going through historical budget cuts and they were woefully understaffed. So they didn't even have enough rangers in the parks to effectively patrol late night reports, or if somebody sent in an emergency report, there was probably no one on hand to deal with it. So instead, Friday morning, May 31st, Julie's parents finally got in contact with a ranger

at Shenandoah Park and he issued what they call an ATL, which is also known as an attempt to locate. Okay. So rangers were notified to look out for the couple and if the women weren't located by nightfall, then authorities would launch a bigger search. And like typically, I mean, I'm gonna bring this up later too,

but typically in these cases, it's like either, you know, they're just lost or they've just kind of shirked their responsibilities. Like, oh, don't worry, we'll find them. It was their mindset, the park rangers. They weren't super worried. So they went out to look for them. And if they couldn't find them by nightfall,

they said, okay, if we can't find them by nightfall, we'll instigate a larger search. So at 10 a.m., their car was located in the spot where they last left it parked, which was indicated by that permit they had gotten, that back country permit. And so on Saturday, June 1st, park authorities escalated the search because they have the car but they don't know where the couple is. And this involved the Appalachian Trail Conservancy so that they would have more boots on the ground searching for them. That day, park goers encountered a friendly golden retriever mix wandering the park without a

collar. It appeared to be lingering near a junction at Bridal Trail, which was a trail so unused that most maps didn't even include it. And the dog would follow several hikers for a while before turning back down Bridal Trail. And eventually one hiker flagged down a ranger and said, "'Hey, there's this dog wandering around. "'Like you might wanna look into this.'" So the ranger called the dog over and it was a very happy and friendly puppy. However, when he tried to get the dog to jump into his truck to take back to the station,

he wouldn't go. And then the ranger remembered that he had been in this meeting about Julie and Lolly and their dog. And so he remembered that the dog's name was Taj and he said, hop in Taj and the dog just jumped right into the truck. Oh, okay. Well, I mean, you know, sorry, I got flustered that the dog was being cute, but also at the same time, yikes, that this is definitely their dog.

Yes, it's definitely their dog. Yes, exactly. It's like a good, it's like a clue in the right direction, but it's also kind of a red flag. So he reported back and said he believed he had located Julie's dog. And so Rangers took the dog to a line of parked cars. This makes me so sad. And walked by them with the dog. Which one he ran to? Mm-hmm. Oh.

And when they passed Julie and Lolly's forerunner, he, he jumped up with his paws on the door, looking through the passenger window. Oh my God. To see if his owners were in there. Oh my God. looking through the passenger window to see if his owners were in there. Oh my God. So now the Rangers, cause of course they know that this is their car as well. So they're like, yep, this is definitely their dog.

And he responds to Taj and he knows this is their car. So they've sure found him. That same day, a young boy slipped and fell at a water park in the park and was badly injured. And so several of the rangers searching for Julie and Lolly responded to that emergency. And meanwhile, one ranger was walking along Bridal Trail, calling the women's names and didn't see anything.

And it was a very like thick, thick undergrowth. Couldn't see much. Hours later, two more rangers hiked the trail again, and this time finally one of them spotted a tent through the dense foliage. Oh God. And they thought, well, that's weird. It's surprising to find campers on the trail.

This is such a secluded area. One of the rangers who used to live in a cabin along the path said, like, people rarely come out here. This is not even on the map. This is a very like isolated part of woods. Would it have to be locals or were, like, people rarely come out here. This is not even on the map. This is a very, like, isolated part of woods. So, like, would it have to be locals? Or were they, like, was there an intention for why they were parked right there?

Like... I think it was just more for people, like, with that back country permit. I mean, I could be wrong, but I think it was more for people who knew the ins and outs of a place like this, maybe, or were more experienced, like, more advanced campers. Okay, that makes sense. Like it's not necessarily something

you would just stumble upon if you were like glamping, as we mentioned earlier. Right, right. And so, you know, they're like, let's take a quick look at who's out here. It's not like they weren't allowed to be tented out there. It's just like an odd choice. Like it's not everybody,

it's not a popular, you know, spot for camping out there. Worth mentioning just like an odd choice. Like it's not everybody, it's not a popular spot for camping out there. Worth mentioning that it is interesting. Yes, exactly. So they kind of take a look. They announce themselves as they approach the campsite. They don't hear anything. And as soon as they're close enough to see the whole site, immediately they realize something is very, very wrong. The campsite is in total disarray. There's pasta and dog food spilled all over the ground. There was a dog leash tied to a large tree branch with the collar still attached, but both had been cut as if to hastily release a dog who was probably freaking out. So tage.

Yes, tage. There was also a large slash in the tent's rain fly. Like somebody had cut it open from the outside. There was also a roll of toilet paper on the ground that had been soaked through with blood. Oh my God. I know. So one of the rangers commented right away that he could smell decomp and the other looked inside the tent

and found a woman lying face down in her sleeping bag. They soon found a second woman also in her sleeping bag, 60 feet from the tent by a stream. Like someone had tried to drag her way in the sleeping bag? I'm not entirely sure because there will be more to this, more details. So most missing persons cases, like I said earlier, usually end with the subjects located

safe and sound. Maybe they changed their path and didn't tell anybody, or they changed their plans, I mean, and went to a new trail or campsite. Maybe they left early, maybe they got lost, you know, that's usually how these things go. Sometimes they're found injured, but typically, there's a happy ending when someone's just kind of missing in the woods like this. However, this was obviously not that case. This was worst case scenario. Julie and Lolly had been

found. They're both dead. And the Rangers did the right thing. They backed out of the campsite, called in the FBI, and they were able to keep the scene pretty preserved. The park quickly fell under federal jurisdiction. The initial reports had conflicting assumptions. One report even labeled it a murder-suicide, which was very clearly not the case. One ranger thought maybe the women were victims of a bear attack, especially with the food everywhere. The slashing. It could have been a bear scratchy thing.

Perhaps ripping it open. I'm not sure. But then when did it have eaten the dog? Yeah, and also like, the women were then very clearly gagged. They had gags in their mouths and it's like, okay, well, obviously this was not a bear. But I think people just kind of were throwing out theories right off the bat. And so there were a lot of mixed messages in the early paperwork. But both women had been gagged and they had both been raped as well.

And they had both died of blood loss after the assailant had cut their throats. And were they alive when they were being raped? Yes. Yes. So very brutal, very horrific. Also just like one of those just extra kick in the groin,

like extra kick while you're down that like these two women had already suffered so much and overcome so much. And with Lollie's upbringing of like sexual assault that she then tried to turn into like a way to help the world and just that that happened on, I mean, it just feels extra heavy. But either way, yes, they were both gagged. They'd also both been raped and they died of blood loss

after the assailant had cut their throats. And I mean, talk about a brutal, brutal crime. The entire outdoor industry was completely shocked, especially minorities who already felt unsafe, you know, women, queer folks, like people who already felt like, you know, women, queer folks, like people who already felt like a little on edge being out in the wilderness and feeling more like a target. Now they've really felt unsafe. It was assumed at first that the women were targeted because of their gender and or sexuality because, you know, they'd been

camping on such a secluded path that investigators like could not believe that this had happened by chance. Like they were like, I don't think someone had to have followed them. Yes. Yeah. on such a secluded path that investigators could not believe that this had happened by chance. Like someone had to have followed them. Yes. Yeah. They were like, I don't think someone had, because they had walked that path so many times that day looking for them and hadn't found the tent.

So they thought, it's hard to imagine somebody would have just stumbled upon this by accident. Right. Totally get it. Okay. Instead, it was more likely, like you said, that they had been stalked to their location before they were killed. And it would also be difficult to sneak up on a camp with a dog present at the campsite,

but the stream running near the tent, you know, maybe covered the sounds of their footfalls. Especially if they were already sleeping in the tent. Exactly. So like the dog might've also been sleeping or like not been so alert or something. Exactly, and I imagine like sleeping in the woods and I say I imagine,

because I really don't do it very often, but I imagine sleeping in the woods at night. You probably hear a lot of footsteps like animals and cracks of branches and twigs. So I'm sure the dog didn't bark at every sound, you know? Right, right. Being used to being in the outdoors. So probably wasn't as difficult to sneak up on

as it might've been during the daytime. It's also interesting that the dog was just let go. I know. It feels like, I don't wish that the dog was harmed, but it's interesting to- It's a surprising choice. It's interesting to note that this person had enough empathy for an animal, but not women I know isn't that that kind of goes to show like wow how

How little yeah some people? feel how how Objectified were women for you that like an animal the puppy can get off. Yeah Yeah, Scott for maybe like he just was afraid that the dog would make noise I mean, I don't know what the reasoning was. Yeah, who knows? Like it could very well be not even an empathetic thing. It could have just been like, oh, it's easier for me to just let the dog go

than kill it, you know? Who knows? Or he just maybe didn't care enough. I imagine probably like you're right that he let the dog go because if the dog stayed there and barked, people would find them. So that's probably a big part of it.

But yeah, so this is all just horrifying. Some women and queer people reported that they were permanently scared of hiking and camping after this. They just didn't even want to be part of it anymore, which is sad. Yeah, I don't blame you. But I don't blame you, exactly.

So Julie's and Lolly's, this is of course unfortunate as well being in the nineties, their sexual identities overshadowed the crime itself a lot of times, which I mean, even nowadays, of course, there well being in the 90s, their sexual identities overshadowed the crime itself a lot of times, which I mean, even nowadays, of course there's still a lot of stigma, but I can't imagine that nowadays the news reports would be like, and they were gay, you know, it wouldn't be probably as shocking maybe,

but keep in mind, this is like 30 some years ago. And so a lot of the reports presented it as like, oh my God, it's shocking these two women were in love or were dating and it's just like, okay, get a fucking grip, you know? But of course on the other side of that coin, there was an outcry of support from the queer outdoor community,

which was very vocal and its allies. And there were demands for legislation to impose harsher punishments for violence that targeted people based on gender and sexuality. So at this point investigators were under an enormous amount of pressure to solve this case and in 2002 six years after the murder the US Attorney General made an announcement. They said I have big news. They didn't say that. They said They said hear, hear ye.

Xtree, xtree, read all about it. They said they had identified and arrested the women's killer. Oh, wow. Was it a big fat homophobe? No, close the case. It was a homophobic bear. No.

They said, we've identified the right guy. And it's Dave, this guy named Darryl David Rice. So Darryl David Rice, he had had a history of violence toward women in Shenandoah National Park. So this fit. Oh, okay. In July of 97, a Canadian woman named Yvonne Malbosha was riding her bike in the park when Darryl drove by,

spotted her from his truck, pulled over, removed his license plates, then began pursuing Yvonne. Mm. Was like, hold on, let me just take off my identifying features and then I'll mow you over and attack you. Oh my God. It's just so sinister. So Darryl apparently followed her, shouted sexual obscenities at her, threw a water bottle

at her. He then forced her off the road with his truck where she fell off her bicycle. And she got up and picked up her bike and started using it as a barrier to like shield herself from this attacker. And he was demanding she get into his truck. Thankfully, she was able to keep Darryl at bay with a bicycle.

And then he got back into his truck and she was able to peace out and run and hide behind a tree. You go girl. I know, I mean, this is just like, talk about traumatizing. So she took shelter behind a tree as You go, girl. I know. I mean, this is just like, talk about traumatizing. So she took shelter behind a tree as Daryl accelerated the car toward her,

like trying to mow her over. And finally, Daryl gave up and sped away. And don't worry, he stopped to put his license plates back on and he changed his shirt. Of course, because now he needs, heaven forbid he gets pulled over now. Yeah, exactly. He's like, nope, back to normal self.

Back to law abiding, Daryl. Yeah. Oh, god, back to normal self, back to law abiding Darryl. Oh God. So Yvonne of course made a report to a ranger and Darryl was arrested before escaping the park. And Darryl did plead guilty to attempted kidnapping. He received an 11 year federal sentence for the crime. And when he was in prison, investigators happened to discover that Darryl had been

in Shenandoah National Park when Lolly and Julie were killed, which was just a year before he attempted to abduct Yvonne. So in the statement on Darryl's indictment, the attorney general referenced violent statements that Darryl had made in prison about queer women. So they felt like, okay, well, he's clearly homophobic. So, you know, this might be the right guy. The statement claimed that Darryl targeted Lolly and Julie because of his hatred of women and homosexuals. Okay, so he was a big fat homophobic so far.

Okay, got it. So Darryl faced four charges of capital murder, two of which invoked a federal sentencing enhancement specific to hate crimes. Now any of the four charges could invoke the death penalty. Although the greater danger for marginalized people in the outdoor sector still existed, many people felt like, okay, well,

at least they got the guy, right? Like, at least they got the guy who did this particular attack. We could feel a little bit relieved. We can feel a little bit safer. The issue was, it wasn't Darryl. What? It was not, it was not Darryl. That's wild, it really seemed perfect.

Yep, it did. And in 2004, two years later, the prosecution's case completely fell apart when DNA evidence from the crime scene proved someone else had been the murderer. I like how I'm always so like pro DNA tests and I was like, how did they figure it out that it wasn't him?

I know, I know, I know. Well, because also we started, like, early, you know, in the 90s, and now it's like, okay, it's 2004. Like, that was the transition to when DNA started being widely used. You know he was, like, actually a serial killer, who's, like, pre... Not a serial killer, he's just like a creepy

man, who's like praying for DNA tests to exonerate him. For once the DNA actually worked in someone's fucking creeper's favor. And so yeah, they said the DNA evidence did not link Darryl to the crime scene whatsoever. So all of the evidence against him, as in attacking another woman in the park and that he was in the park when Lolly and Julie were attacked, that was now just completely circumstantial. And if there was someone else's DNA there, it's pretty easy for the defense to say, I think there's reasonable doubt here. So the prosecution dropped their charges against Darryl with the condition that he could be charged again if new evidence emerged. So there's no double jeopardy here in that.

They still left the door open just in case they were able to link Darryl to the crime. However, many people remain convinced that Darryl was still guilty because it just, like you said, fit so perfectly. And upon his release from prison for the attempted abduction of Yvonne, Darryl retreated to a life of complete solitude.

Like he went off the grid, he became kind of a hermit to escape the harassment and journalists, authors, true crime reporters, law enforcement, they all remained convinced that he was most likely the perpetrator even though the DNA had like... I wonder if him like going into seclusion, he was just likely the perpetrator, even though the DNA had like... I wonder if him like going into seclusion,

he was just kind of like, damn, apparently my opinions get me into trouble. Like, I got to back away. He fucked up in a lot of ways and then was like, well, I might as well just remove myself from this whole narrative. Yeah. So 20 more years passed, 20.

Oh my God. Well, you remember, right, that I said this case was solved after I wrote this chapter of the book. Yeah. So 20 more years passed, and it seemed as though this would just become, you know, another unsolved case that nobody ever figured out. But in June of this year, June, so we're now in August,

so this was two months ago, 2024, the FBI announced this time they did have the identity of the killer. Wow, did they have to wait for him to do another crime so it was in the system or something? No, but good guess. So basically what happened is in 2021, a team of investigators with the FBI

were tasked with reviewing the case. Cause you know, these things kind of go through phases where it's like they get put away and then a new team comes on and they say, Hey, like fresh eyes, take a look at this, you know? And so I feel like these cycles kind of happen. So in 2021, a team of investigators were able to extract new DNA samples from evidence collected at the crime scene, which they then submitted to CODIS, the FBI's Combined DNA Index System.

And incredibly, there was a match. They did not expect a match because like you said, a lot of times you have to wait for somebody to be put in the system and then they show up, but no, there's already a match. This guy named Walter Leo Jackson Sr. of Cleveland, Ohio, who had died in March, 2018 in prison in Cuyahoga County, Ohio. Yeah, he had died, which is just an extra frustration.

So he just got away with it. Yeah, yes, for his whole life. So Walter was a convicted rapist and kidnapper who was also known to have spent time in Shenandoah National Park. And investigators confirmed the match between evidence from the crime scene and Walter with a second DNA sample collected from a buccal swab of Walter's inner cheek that had been taken. Wow.

Of Walter's cheek. So Darryl Rice was finally exonerated of the killings, but he had become such a recluse that his own defense attorney could not find him, like could not reach him at all. So he might, for all we know, he might not even know that he's been exonerated. So 15 days later, he was struck by a car while riding his bike, which also feels very karmic. I'm just going to say. What? Yeah, that, I don't know what he's done. And I'm not saying he's asked for it.

I'm just saying. Well, yes you do. He literally mowed a woman off the road on her bicycle. Oh yes. I meant like in more recent years for him to be getting hit by a car in that time period. I mean it feels very perfectly full circle that he tried to attack a woman on her bicycle 30 years earlier and now he's on his bicycle and gets mowed over. You know, it just feels very fitting. So I don't know. I'm not saying it should have happened. I'm just saying it sounds very karmic, right?

It would have been written into a story. It feels a little, yeah, a little like tied in a bow. So he's struck by a vehicle while riding his bike and killed. And so it's possible, like you said, that he never even knew that he had been exonerated. Like maybe he didn't even see it on the news. So the FBI has released information about the didn't even see it on the news.

So the FBI has released information about the vehicle they believe Walter drove at the time. It was a 1984 Chestnut Brown AMC Eagle 30, as well as photos of Walter. And I hate looking at them because you just, you know how some people just have those fucking evil eyes. You can see that he's- Through the screen.

It's like- Dark-sided. Yes. And like a lack of a soul almost. And so the FBI has requested public assistance in connecting Walter to any other crimes he may have committed because he was a serial rapist, serial murderer. So if anybody has any information, check it out if you have any link whatsoever. But otherwise, we can at least feel a little bit of justice was served in that at least we know who actually killed these two women.

Still so frustrating. The entire time I kept waiting, I was holding off. I did not ask because I was like, Christine's going to tell me eventually, so don't even ask. But I was wondering the whole time. I can't wait to hear at the end when he gives an explanation for why he does the things he does and And we still didn't get that. Okay. No, I'm sure if you delved more into Leo's Walter Leo's a Psychiatric paperwork, I mean, yeah or like his other crimes you'd probably get a good sense, you know, but But yeah, so, you know, you can hear me say Lollyynans properly, and you can probably hear the cut of me going, Wynans, saying it differently than the rest of the voice, because I had apparently mispronounced it the first time,

and I do apologize for that, but it should be correct now. But yeah, so, you know, it's just fucking tragic, and it's even more tragic when you see photos of them. I'm gonna send you a photo of them, because they're just like the cutest little, like, outdoorsy gay couple from the 90s. Like so 90s. I can already see it.

It's like, they're just like so sweet and like dorky and like adorkable. Oh! I know. I know. It's horrible. Those are, that is a cute gay couple. Here's Taj with them

Show me Taj. Oh Part of the back of his head, but yeah, it just It just makes it extra like brutal to see them together, you know, cuz it's like yeah Just oh, they were cute. He finally found their person, you know, and they had gone through so much already. And they already faced such a hard stigma. And it's just a rough one. It's a rough one. Oh my God.

Well, thanks. You're welcome. Anyway, thanks everybody. I'm so glad you were here to join us today. Last night as I was doing these notes, I was like, oh, I'm so excited. I'm so excited. I'm so excited. I'm so excited. I'm so excited. I'm so excited. I'm thanks everybody. I'm so glad you were here to join us today.

Last night as I was doing these notes, I was like, you know what? What if we just switched? What if I just started one and see how that works? I feel like it's so awkward. I don't know. Well, I guess it is in some ways, but also in other ways, I feel like it gives me an opportunity to ask you anything just to shift gears. So that's fair. That's fair. It to ask you anything just to shift gears. So.

That's fair, that's fair, it opens the door. Yeah, go ahead. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm, how do you feel about politics these days? Oh, come on. What do you wanna do for our after dark? I don't know.

I'm sure we can find a little something on. What did I do last time? Oh, I read you questions from my shadow work journal. I'm sure we can find a little something on. What did I do last time? Oh, I read you questions from my Shadow Work journal. I loved that. That was actually so fun. I felt like we learned a lot about ourselves. I feel like we did too, baby. Can we do that again?

Yeah, let's do another Shadow Work. Or we said we would do another newlywed couple game. Oh, that's right. Yeah, well, I'm sure we'll have plenty more after hours we could put after dark or whatever the fuck we call it. I heard someone call it Yappy Hour, which I love too. Wait, let's do that. Yappy Hour's so much better.

It's like the ninth iteration. I feel like our logo for this should now just be like all the names just crossed out and just a new one on the list. It's just going to be, Jack's gonna be like, I give up, it doesn't get a name anymore. Don't get to put a name on it. Well, speaking of Yappi-R, if you want us to keep yapping,

you can head on over to Patreon and you can listen to us yap yap yap all day long. About our shadow selves. About our deep dark secrets about our personal lives. Isn't that nice? And also congratulations to Christine for 300 episodes. Not a billboard in sight, but just you wait for episode 500 on That's Why We Drink.

Congratulations on completing 394 episodes. Thank you. I'm gonna have, we're gonna throw a big party in six weeks, whether or not you want it, we're gonna do it because I need it. So, okay. I guess we'll see it next week when it's, oh my God, it's gonna be September. Oh, geez. That can't be right. If not, it's about to be. It's coming up very quick. It's amazing how fast this year flew

by. It's incredible. Anyway, thank you everyone. And please go get our book because it is still on pre-order, not for much longer. And also please go get tickets for our live show. Yay. And that's why we drink.