And That's Why We Drink - E406 A Nap Seance and The Christine Claw™

Episode Date: November 17, 2024

Episode 406 is here and so is Juniper to take a bite from Christine after her nap. This week Em brings us the history and spooky hauntings of the Griggs Mansion, built by Chauncey Griggs - not to be confused with our SIM Chauncey Bliss. Then Christine kicks of her multi-part story on the kidnapping of Jaycee Lee Dugard, a heartbreaking tale with a twist straight out of a Disney movie. And don't forget to take some self care time to color, or draw, or rot on the couch this week like us, you deserve it! ...and that's why we drink! Only four more shows remaining in our Fall Pour Decisions Tour! Come see us in Atlanta, Charleston, San Francisco or San Diego. Get your tickets at andthatswhywedrink.com/live today! Get 10 FREE meals at HelloFresh.com/freedrink. Applied across 7 boxes, new subscribers only, varies by plan. Right now, our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual membership at MASTERCLASS.com/DRINK There’s more to imagine when you listen. New members can try Audible now free for 30days with your first audiobook included. VisitAudible.com/DRINK or text DRINK to 500-500. Make your fall finances a little greener by working towards your financial goals with Chime. Open your account in 2 minutes at chime.com/DRINK. Feels like progress. SimpliSafe is offering our listeners exclusive early access to their Black Friday Sale. This week only, you can get 60% off any new system with a select professional monitoring plan. This is their best offer of the year! Head to SIMPLISAFE.com/drink. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Red one we're coming at you is the movie event of the holiday season Santa Claus has been kidnapped You're gonna help us find you can't trust this guy. He's on the list. It's a naughty Lister naughty Lister Dwayne Johnson We got snowman Chris Evans, I might just go back to the car. Let's save Christmas I'm not gonna say that say it. All right Let's see Christmas. There it is. Only in theaters November 15th. How often can you say a gift is truly unique? When you gift a loved one an ancestry DNA test,

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It's a paranormal podcast where sometimes we interrupt each other. And you had something to say? Mm-mm. No. It sounded important. Carry on for the next two hours. Christine, why on earth do you drink this week? Oh my God, I can't believe it.

I slept. Oh, okay. I thought there was gonna be a number after that. That's good. How long did you sleep? I don't know, but my little app said, wow, you did it. Really? That feels kind of sending. Yes, it sure did. I said, I've been trying for weeks. You know what kind of said? You're so brave.

You know, it's kind of sending when it says, hey, why don't you try harder to sleep? And I'm like, you know, go fuck kind of stunning when it says hey, why don't you try harder to sleep? And I'm like, you know go fuck yourself first of all Does it do it based on length or based on depth? No, so it's my little aura ring so it does like your biometrics You know my biometrics is what it is what it does Yeah, no more questions, right? That's obviously clear enough. Anyway, I woke up with Leona, as I have been doing,

and got healthcare already. Then I was like, I'm gonna take a nap. I never take naps, as you know. I was like, I'm just gonna sleep. And so I slept through my two alarms. Good for you. And I slept like hours. And my- Good for you. And I slept like hours. Good for you.

And my finally caught up a little bit. So I'm feeling like very weird because I just woke up. Oh, you just took a nap. You just took a nap. Oh, sorry. Yes, to clarify, I woke up probably 25 minutes ago. And I had that panic of, uh-oh, did I miss that recording? Ugh, story of my life. Yeah, I know. I felt like you. And then my app of, uh-oh, did I miss that recording? Ugh, story of my life. Yeah, I know.

I felt like you. And then my app was like, holy smokes, what happened? And I was like, hell if I know. And all the little boys, Gio, Junie, and Moony were all around me, like a little seance. They thought it was over. They were ready to eat you. They were hosting my funeral, yeah.

They were actually probably ready to eat me. They were discussing the recipe, though, how they were going to brine you. Who gets the first bite? Yeah. So anyway, I was probably dead to the world. But yeah, so I woke up feeling like, well, what is this feeling of like having slept more than, you know, five hours or whatever? Oh, God. Well, we were at the Driscoll recently for our tour. We always stay at this, of course,

this haunted place in the one Em covered ages ago. And we stayed there this time and it's like this beautiful old hotel, but the mattress was too damn soft. I felt like Goldilocks. I was in the bathroom in the middle of the night getting towels to like put under me. Like I was like, how old am I that like my back hurts after like 10 minutes of laying on a soft mattress? But in any case, I couldn't sleep there. And I thought, oh, that's my place to catch up.

No, turns out it was on a Wednesday morning before we recorded. So, you know, I I'm proud of you for napping at all. I that's it's literally my favorite hobby. So thank you. And you know what? I did my favorite thing that occasionally happens, which is where I drank coffee, took my medication and then took a nap. So then when I woke up, it all was like, we're here. It's like going to the beyond.

It was like, oh man, I feel so good now. I woke up and I was like, wow, all my meds have kicked in. My coffee is kicked. I feel good. Anyway, I'm just like, it's rare that I hop on here and say, hey, I'm just like, it's rare that I hop on here and say, hey, I'm feeling awesome, cause I don't know. I don't know, cause my body is rested. That's very rare.

So anyway, why do you drink this week? I don't know. I'm in a bit of a funk. I came home and I'm just like so depressed and I don't know what my deal is. So maybe I need a nap combined with uppers and downers. Yeah, that's exactly right. You get it. No, I think because I've been, I think my body's just tired of traveling, which this happens

during every tour where there's only a leg left or a couple legs left. And I'm, I just, I think this one's extra hard because I'm realizing how little I'm actually gonna be in my house for the rest of the year because, oh, like, we're going on a leg and that both legs are gonna have me going back to the East Coast at different points. So I'm going to... We have Atlanta and Charleston, but that's where Allison's family usually comes to see the show, so then we're gonna be there.

From there, I think I'm just gonna go straight to Seattle, like I usually do for Thanksgiving. So one of the things that I told Christine recently is that I bought a travel microphone, so while I'm traveling, I can still record, and I'm very excited to try that. I can't wait to see how that works. I think it's gonna be,

because I feel like it's been in my mind, I'm like, oh no, like I still have to get all the way home just to record. But if I'm if I have a microphone with me, then I think that stress will go away, which is super nice. So I'm excited about that. But then I come back from Thanksgiving. I'm globetrotting. We're recording and I'm suddenly like, I'm in Seattle.

I'm in Atlanta. I'm in Timbuktu. I can't wait. Coming at you live from, yeah. And then we have our last show, but immediately from there, Alice and Sister has a baby shower, and then from there, I'm gonna go home for Christmas. It just becomes a thing where I'm not really home a lot, and I'm already a little burnt out,

and so I'm just like, ugh. So I think my brain is kind of saying bye bye and manually shutting down on its own. Hey, maybe that's what happened to me because my brain also said that it didn't even respond to alarms on my Apple Watch. It was just like, no thanks, we're not participating in the world anymore. It was, yeah, it, I feel like I- Try being unconscious. You know, I... It's usually a tried and true practice for me. Yeah, I was gonna say, you're the one who taught me that, so who am I kidding?

No, but today's the first day I feel a little on the up and up. But the last few days I was just like a little... Like, I just couldn't get myself off the couch. But I think that's because I was go, go, going. Yeah, there's like a come down from all travel. And I feel like ours is so like heightened also because we did, I mean especially Texas, we did three live shows and two book signings and like back-to-back so it was just a lot of like- Which doesn't sound like a lot but it is weirdly

draining. I think it sounds like a lot. I feel like if I heard somebody else saying that I wouldn't understand but it really does take a lot out of you and I don't know if it's because like I feel the need to be on or if it's just because you add that to all the flying and traveling we do and I don't know. It's work, you know, we're traveling for work. It's a lot, it's a lot. So anyway, today I drink because I feel better than I have the last two days,

but the last two days were just, I was just. Well, I'm sorry. It's okay, I just felt like that. Look, Juni just arrived to take his first bite. He's mad that I woke up. He said, I know I doused you in something when you were asleep. I gotta go find that one spot.

It's like you're salted already. I also drink because our manager knows I love a good hunk of meat. And apparently my Christmas present got here early because I'll be traveling so much. Oh, that's not, she's so thoughtful. A box of steak just arrived my way. So now I know what I'm having for dinner.

Yeah. I sort of feel like Maggie knew like you were having a downer day and was like, here you go. Here's a box of steak. The only thing I don't like about a box of delicious steak is that I have to make it. I just wish it would, I wish a waiter would show up, you know?

They should also include like that Jetson, some sort of Jetson's like tool that can just like. The Spy Kids microwave? Yes! Right, exactly. You get it. Like some Inspector Gadget situation. I don't know. Anyway, so that will be my treat today. Oh, and my treat last night because I was not feeling good so Allison tried to like cheer me up. We went to Airwan and I had a basic bitch moment and I had one of my unnecessarily expensive smoothies. And it was actually my favorite smoothie I've had from there. Which one?

I've never had one, so I don't know why I'm asking, but I'm curious. Okay, so I tried for those wondering, there was like a big thing for a while about Hailey Bieber's strawberry smoothie that came out. Not actually a fan of that, the that I thought I was going to be. And I also really want to try Kendall Jenner's Malibu Mango, Mango Malibu situation. LA is crazy.

I always forget after leaving. Where celebrities get to make their own smoothies and then it becomes like- Just insanity. And another LA thing is that, for those who don't know, Erwan is like this unbelievably bougie. Do you know what somebody said to me the other day? The grocery store. And I felt really stupid.

My tattoo artist was like, oh, well we went to that really fancy store. It's, and I was like, oh, I was about to say it. She goes, it's the one that's nowhere spelled backwards. And I went, Erwan. Holy shit, I didn't know that was nowhere spelled backwards. I'm so slow. Like, did you know that?

Yeah, that's why in the show, you, when like the girl- Yes, she said that. She said that. She's like, you know that show- The girl who's after runs like basically an Airwan. And when it's spelled backwards, it spells Nirvana. But it's-

Yes, yes. Yeah, yeah, yes. It's exactly what she told me. And I went, oh my God, yeah, yeah, yes. That's exactly what she told me and I went, oh my God, I'm so, okay, I'm so- It's like absolutely making fun of Erewhon. Right, right, right, right, right. But anyway, I went there and I had the berries and cream smoothie,

which I didn't love that I couldn't make modifications because it's the membership smoothie, which there is a membership to this grocery store. What? And they always have a membership- Wait, are you a member? No, I think if I was a member, I could have made a modification, but I wasn't allowed to.

Oh, this is insane. They usually have like a members only smoothie. And if you're a member, it's free for a certain amount of time before they switch it to another smoothie. But the reason why it's such a perk that it would be free is because some of the smoothies are like $30. Like it's insane. And the one that I got yesterday was surprisingly $11.

I felt like a normal smoothie for once, but. That's like an airport price, yeah. Yeah, but I had the berries and cream one. And I think if I could have added dates to it, it would have been perfect. Oh, interesting. Okay, so that's your new favorite. What kind of, like, is it like hemp milk?

Like, what kind of milk do they put in it? Let me tell you. Erewan. I'm of course already on Erewan smoothies. Yeah, they're, oh, it's called the Aloe, Aloe, Aloe. It's that company that's a lot of bougie people wear. Okay, so the ingredients are. Okay, these look great.

The pictures of them look beautiful. They look beautiful. Wow. Yeah, my goal is to try every single one of them. I will tell you the cloud one, that's a beautiful blue. It is not that good. So it's gotta look pretty to, I guess, get it pretty good.

Oh my God, it's got organic mushrooms. Mm hmm. Yeah, this one had that too. What? It's because it's so nutritional. Oh, it's coconut milk. Almond mommy. So this one has coconut milk, strawberry, sorry, organic coconut milk, organic strawberries, organic blueberries, grass-fed vanilla collagen, reishi, which I don't know what that is, organic

goji berry, organic dates, dates turkey tail and kamu kamu Wow, wow, and an immunity rescue shot, of course, of course Maybe that's why you feel better today. Um Maybe it saved me actually. What is turkey tail? Because i'm starting to get concerned because I google turkey tail. It's a mushroom Few because I definitely googled it and I got to tell you a bunch of pictures of Roasted and raw turkey came up on my page. So I'm glad that that was the thing I wanted to remove because I'm not a mushroom person Well, there's a lot of different mushrooms in here looks like. I know but they said there was no modifications because I'm not a member I guess I'll just suck it up. So they probably literally through your straw

They probably looked at you and thought you need the mushroom. We're not letting you change it. I know. Uh, anyway, I, my goal is to try every single one of them. And I think we're like halfway through the list. So fantastic. I can't wait to hear your rankings at the end. Thank you. And because I also know how late, but I'm also having a fruit cup today from air one. That looks like a good one though. Ask me how much this was. Okay. guess? In Air One prices, yeah. So it's a for those just listening, it's um, it's like about a quart and it's a slice strawberries in the bottom and pineapple on top. Is that it? Mango, mango, mango. Oh mango, mango, mango. That changes the game for sure. I would guess $11. It was $15. Okay, okay. Maybe members pricing pricing. It would be a little... No, their mango is always the freshest mango.

That's the thing too, is it's so expensive, but everything there is perfect. For a reason. There's a reason celebrities only get their food there, because I know it's going to be perfect. And everything's like... It's also because everything's already prepped and in beautiful little jars and labeled. it feels very Black Mirror in a way, but it's also like, like a lot of people who go there are like celebrities, personal assistants who are grocery shopping for them.

And when they get to the house, the food's already basically done for them. Right, I got to. Anyway, capitalism really popped off today because this mango is delicious. And look, it worked. You're feeling so much better. Sometimes you need a basic bitch day. Anyway, that's why I drink. I'm sorry for the tie right there.

Fantastic. Hmm. Anyway. Is that it? Any updates on your life? I think that's it. I'm just like vibing, you know. Leona's good. Leona's fantastic. She's finally fine.

Can you give us a potty update? Yeah, well her teacher just texted me, she peed and I was like, yay! So she's good. She's figured it out as we knew she would, but it was a long, arduous couple weeks there. I feel like it's the equivalent of like when you get updates from like doggy daycare. Yeah, yes. Oh, she's sharing well and she pooped. So apparently daycares do that and she hasn't been in like a traditional daycare.

But like my friends who have kids in daycare are like, yeah, they send like all these photos, like, like they send like a little chart with like full diaper, like how to bottle, you know, like they put like a little chart with full diaper, how to bottle. They put a little sticker chart basically, or in the app they check in, change diaper. And I'm like, wow, this is really puppy daycare. They're in a phase where I think both of them

are equally cute and entertaining and also capable of doing what they can do. Yeah, and probably a limited amount of, you know, report card information to include. Yeah. This is the era where you find out if they're naughty or nice when you're not looking much like a puppy dog. Oh, exactly. See. Okay. Well, good. I'm glad that she's her. We're all just having a good time. It's cold now. Finally. Yeah.

It's finally 58 degrees. It was like having a good time. It's cold now, finally. She's listening to her body. Yeah, it's finally 58 degrees. It was like 80 the other day, it's November. Feels like winter. We're gonna get moving on some Halloween, I mean Christmas decorations, you know? Nice. Is she old enough to go sledding this time? Skeleton was stolen again.

Christine. My new one. Just stop buying it at this point. Oh wait I already talked about this because I had to write because I had to write I lost my legs well then guess what somebody posted hey I don't have his legs I think I found his torso and I went well that can't be right and I went back and looked and someone had come back for his torso. Oh yeah you have to stop buying it at this point. You have to stop Christine.. I beg, I beg, please.

No, you know next year I'm gonna turn into my like, my like Dennis Samanis, like I'm gonna set up like a home alone kind of trap in front of it. Oh yeah, or at least a camera that like, a high definition camera inside the skeleton. Yeah, I don't, I really, oh, a GoPro in the skeleton. Okay, I never thought- With a tracker. With a tracker, wait, I'll in the skeleton. Okay, I never thought. With a tracker. With a tracker.

Wait, I'll put an air tag on him. Yeah, right behind the old skull noggin. I love this idea. I love tracking things and then watching them go away. And then I can yell at people and not feel bad about it. Okay, I love this too. I'll join you. It's fun.

Okay, oh, okay, right. I do have a story for you. I forgot that that's what we do sometimes. After I hang out with you, like face to face when we're on tour and we don't talk about work stuff. Yeah. Like I just, it's not our conversation. Our conversation isn't followed with like, oh, I have a story for you. I forget that that's why we're here. I know. It's hard to remember sometimes. It's hard to do my job. It's hard Christine Hola

Fresh show I was hoping maybe you'd pick up I've been taking Spanish. It's fine. It's no big deal Anyway, that's my new hello fresh call holiday season. It's coming folks We're excited, but we're also looking for ways to spend and stress less. HelloFresh makes mealtime nearly hassle-free, nearly hassle-free. Whether you're craving hearty comfort food, trying to please picky eaters, or looking for a calorie-smart meal plan, HelloFresh has all those options and more available on a rotating menu.

I just had the curried chickpea fritters. Hey, that was freaking delicious. And I actually got to make them and finish Moana with Leona afterward. That's how easy it was. And highly recommend. What about you? I had the sweet and smoky barbecue glazed chicken

after my Texas trip, very yummy. And I did not watch Moana with Leona, but I just sat in silence and enjoyed my child-free life with my sweet sweet smoky barbecue glazed chicken. Next time! Get 10 free meals at hellofresh.com slash free drink. Applied across seven boxes, new subscribers only, varies by plan. Just go to hellofresh.com slash free drink. HelloFresh, America's number one meal kit. Okay, so yes, I have a tale for you. And this is oh, my gosh, where is this? This is in St. Paul, Minnesota.

Oh, very cold up there. And this is from the era is the 1800s. Dun dun dun. And also the 1900s. Dun dun dun dun dun dun. A lot of eras. That's 200 years. And also it gets mentioned briefly at the end of the 2000s. Dun dun dun dun dun dun. That's a lot of eras. That's 200 years. And also it gets mentioned briefly at the end of the 2000s. Dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun. At the end of the 2000s?

Sorry, wait a minute. Hang on. At the end of my story, the 2000s. Oh, I was like, wow, so we're skipping to the future. Yeah, a lot of time traveling in this one. This is the Griggs Mansion. And we start in, on New Year's Eve, 1832. Everyone's celebrating. They're like, what lies ahead in 1833?

Well, they don't have time to think about that because someone's giving birth. Oh, no. They're always ruining the party. They're giving birth to our main character, whose name, my friend, is Chauncey. No way! Literally, a giant siren just started outside. Oh, you know why? He wants you to know, he's still here.

I think it's the tornado siren, like the practice one, but it really was good timing. Oh my god. Chauncey, you don't have a practice siren? No. Oh, on one Wednesday every month in Cincinnati, they do the practice like emergency sirens. Okay, but if I were a kid right now at recess and this was like the time and I got to be outside

while I heard the siren, I would have lost my mind and told my parents. Oh, do you have any idea? We used to have the best time pretending it was like apocalypse now. I totally would have played along. Yeah. I would have always hidden under the monkey bars if I was outside That's there's so many holes on those though. I Would have buried myself in mulch. I would have gone a tunnel slide. Oh

Or tire swing Bouncy see you've clearly been here before Fair point I have 30 years ahead of you on this game. You're saying it with a drag cigarette. Yeah, like. I bet you're a long time kid. Uh huh, yeah, yeah. Classic beginner amateur hour over here.

And I'm just pouring mulch on my hair. This'll save me. Yeah, from the fake tornado that's not happening. Okay, um, okay. 1832, New Year's Eve, Chauncey Griggs is born. Chauncey. Which sounds a lot like Chauncey Bliss, which by the way, if you- Trust me, I know.

Don't recall, folks. I had forgotten his name every single time I ask him. I forget his name. His name is Chauncey Bliss. He's our Sim character that we invented on the podcast. I don't remember- Hoss-a-fwa, hoss-a-fwa. He says hoss-a-fwa.

He does very Simlish things. I don't remember why, but it was the funniest thing that's ever happened to me. And to this day- I feel like there was a story where there actually was someone named Chauncey Bliss. Oh, maybe.

And I think we were like, he sounds like a sim. Oh. And now we think he's only a sim. Oh. That's what I think. We were probably in a sims era at that point and it just sparked some discussion. Okay, okay.

You know what, by the way? The Chauncey Griggs. Chauncey Griggs, and I will say, while I've been sitting in my little depressive era, three different times I thought, you know what would heal me? Fucking staying up all night and playing Sims. I see. Oh God, there is a Chauncey Blizzon.

He was suspected in a murder. Oh, that sounds like a Sim. He pulled the ladder out of a pool. He must have. Another proposed suspect is the caretaker, Chauncey Bliss, an eccentric. Chauncey Bliss sounds like a caretaker. It sounds like a caretaker and a sim. It's the most incredible name. And I also, I wonder like what his first language was, cause it might've been Simlish.

Honestly, I'd be shocked if it wasn't. So Chauncey Griggs is born in Connecticut and he by 14. I don't know if this was like because he was a pull yourself up by the bootstraps kind of man or if this was just of the 1830s era or 1840s era. But by 14, he's already working full time. And then he decides, oh, man, I got to turn my life around.

I'm getting old at 14. And he moves to Michigan to go to business school, which this is how the founding fathers were 18 years old. Yeah, this is crazy. How do you go to business school at 14 because you need a pick-me-up in your career? What the fuck is that? Well, it's so sad.

You look at some of the pictures, and it's like an eight-year-old working hard labor at the docks back then, and it's like, oh, my God. Like, you grow up in... By the time you're a toddler, basically, it's so sad. I can see why old curmudgeon-y men are like, what do you mean, you're eight and you don't have a job? You can't drive? Are you kidding me?

Like, I drove a steamship when I was eight, you know, it's why I used to shovel the coal by hand. I I sorry, Allison's creepily stealing candy from the living room and then going into the room. That was like a little goblin experience. Like a gremlin. Uh, no, I feel like I don't know. I see like not my grandparents, but my great grandparents.

They're like, I walked uphill both ways, blah, blah, blah. And in my mind, I'm like, can a five year old actually like when I'm like if I had to babysit a seven year old who like once did hard labor, I look at a seven year old and I'm like, I you're not you can't do that. There's just no way I can't believe they I mean, I guess they had to bring money in back then. That's how they had to do it. But I just, I look at a seven year old who plays like Minecraft or whatever they do nowadays.

I don't know. And I'm just like, how on earth are you responsible for the family? And kids like Leona, who just discovered that you can watch people playing Minecraft. Does she have any clue what Minecraft is? No. Does she like to watch people play Minecraft? I guess. I was like, what are you doing? No, but I think a lot of the reasons those kids were sent to do that kind of labor too is that they were so small. And so they could, like we talked about before, like they could climb into like small parts of boats and,

you know, just because- Well, they always had like a little kid working on a boat. Yeah. On a ship. And they can like run fast and they're little and I don't know. It's just very sad though. It's like how dachshunds became really powerful hunting dogs because they could get in all the little holes. Oh my God, is that true? That's hilarious. I think they were like they would get inside gopher holes and stuff.

I cannot imagine a dachshund. If I had a dachshund and a seven-year-old in front of me and someone said, which one's better at hunting? I'd be like the seven-year-old probably. If you saw a seven-year-old and a dachshund in front of you and someone said, which one's better at hunting? I'd be like the seven year old, probably. If you saw a seven year old and a dachshund in front of you and then both of them said, turn back around grandma, we got this. Off to work. And you just had to live your life based off of a seven year old and a dachshund. You just had to hope that your life was going to be okay. Why are you, excuse me, ma'am, excuse me, grandma, why are you in the steamboat captain's

office? This is our, the seven year oldold of the docks and are running this ship Go back to bed grandma. I can't imagine it I just like why would Tommy Pickles tell me that he's in control of the ship? Honestly, there's something comforting about the confidence though, you know, you know what and maybe that you know Anyway, I could really do fall into a tailspin really quickly about the confidence of children and dogs and maybe it actually is like generational trauma. Wow. Okay.

So anyway, he was 14. So he's an old spinster at this point. Yeah, too bad. He's moved to Michigan, which I can't imagine a 14-year-old walking across the street without me wondering what they're doing. Going to the bus. Yeah, exactly. I know the answer to this, but have you ever wondered what it takes to be a professional skateboarder?

Yes. No, I don't, obviously. I haven't touched a skateboard since I was 12. Well, yeah, back then, you know, if you had had masterclass and guess what? Tony Hawk literally teaching a masterclass on how to skateboard. But the way that I would have told everyone that Tony Hawk was my skateboarding instructor. And then they'd be like, then why are you so bad? Oh, my God. No, it's true. For just $10 a like, then why are you so bad? Yeah. Oh my God. No, it's true.

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He moves to Michigan on his own. He goes to business school and he later works at a bank. Again, so now he's extra in control of other people's money as a wee child. And in the 1850s, he thought he could do better business if he moved west, which I don't know if that's a smart business move or if he's just a dumb 14 year old.

I don't- I was gonna say, his brain has not developed even remotely. Like his frontal lobe is way not there yet. So I don't know who, if maybe somebody guided him to do that. Yeah, like who, like did you have more mentors more mentors back like a guidance counselor? I have no idea I feel like when you're that when you're I guess because in my mind I'm like, I guess you're technically capable of that if you've already moved to a whole other state by yourself

And you work at a bank you've been in business school So maybe you do know what you're doing in the world of business But also you could be a 14 year old being like, I got to get away from here. I just got to move West. And like, he was just having an emo phase before they existed. Maybe it's both. So he moves West. He moves to St. Paul, which I guess is West. Okay. That feels very 14. I'm getting out of this town to Minnesota. He was like, I had to be close just in case I need to go get my Datsun.

And he opens up a general store. One source, I love this, called him a grocery tycoon, which is how I felt at Airwond, by the way. Which is how I felt when I played fucking tycoon, any of the tycoon CD-ROMs at age 14 and thought, is this what it's like to be a hard scrabble 14 year old from the 1830s? I'm telling you, when I finish this smoothie list at Air One, please call me a grocery tycoon.

Because I- You're like, this is the only thing that'll heal me. I'll have it made in the shade. But so apparently he, I don't know what he could and couldn't do well by today's standards, but he certainly ran the shit out of that grocery store. Hell yeah.

And which by the way, as a 14 year old and you run a grocery store, I know he's stealing snacks from his own inventory. I know he's allowed to. That's true. He could just write those right off, I guess. I don't know. He then becomes a merchant for lumber and coal, because I guess while he's doing the grocery store thing, he's like, man,

maybe he was a businessman. Because he was like it. Because he was like it. Because he was like a business boy. But but nonetheless, a little baby. Yes. At some point, I think he was like, well, to get food in and out of this place because of, you know, my grocery store, I should look into like getting more involved in the railroad industry. So then he became a merchant for coal and then lumber

because he got into like railroad construction, I guess. So that way a train could be built right next to his grocery store, or that was at least his plan originally. So he became a merchant, which I hate that fucking word because I don't know what that means these days. It's such a vague word. It feels like that word that you would just get

on like some cart, you know, when you go to like a Titanic exhibit and they're like, here's your little passport. Like merchant feels like, what does that even mean? Like a merchant of what? I feel like everyone was a merchant. It's like the equivalent today of someone saying like, I'm an entrepreneur.

Like, okay, shut up with that. Like, just tell me what you do. Except like less interesting, except like more vague. You know what I mean? Like at least. Like as a merchant, are you just a salesman? Or like a coordinator, you know, something where you're like, of what? A production manager? I don't know what you do.

That doesn't help me. Like merchant, I think merch. So you're in charge of merchandise. But then again, what does that mean? Yeah, I guess he's... Pisses me right off. Pisses me right off. I'm gonna stop pretending to guess then, because I think I'm just going to keep poking the bear and it's not worth it.

I'll think about it halfway through the show. I'll remember, but on the way to recording today, when you start shouting at me, I'll be like, it's not about you, Christine. It's about the merchant thing. Don't take it personally. I thought about something earlier where I was like, oh, oh, oh, okay. I remember already on the way here. I was thinking I got to remember, I got to remember already on the way here. I was thinking I gotta remember

I gotta remember this for the show so I can tell Christine that it pisses me right off when this happens because I remembered it right now. You know what? I can't fucking stand You know what grinds my goddamn gears Christine you tell me is when someone takes too long to say goodbye on the phone. I Can I don't get on the phone for this among many other reasons. I have my mother is a Criminal in this case where all she does is say goodbye. Are you felon? She's actually basically like first-degree murderer when it comes to this

Like she will say goodbye 18 fucking times like Like, she'll try it in 18 different ways. I'm like, can you just fucking say goodbye? I'm so tired. You know what's so out of control is my mom. I will go, okay, well, I gotta pick up Lou and she'll go, okay, bye and hang up before I can even finish my sentence. So like- Honestly, I respect it.

No, it's great, but I totally know what you mean. And that is one of the top five reasons probably why I don't ever get on the phone Honestly, Renata probably has the same pet peeve I do but I listen to my mom go well I've got to go. Oh my god, by the way, did I tell you this? Okay. Well, I want to go What are you doing right now? I'm like, why would you fucking ask that as you're telling me goodbye? Why would you do that? What are you doing? It's her favorite line She'll always I think she's trying to get me to do the whole like, okay.

Well, I'm gonna go do this now. Well, like now you've just opened up a whole other conversation and whatever I say next you're gonna do a follow-up question. Then you're gonna do a now we're just talking again. Like I'm ah, I think honestly my mom's afraid to know what I'm doing and doesn't care. So she's like, please don't tell me I'm just gonna hang up. I'm like, I'm gonna go get, okay, I'm not interested, bye. I've gotten into a habit with my mom where I just interrupt her now. It's like, I'm so, sometimes I go back to my teenage years with her and I can hear how rude I am, but also adult me doesn't really care either.

I'm just like, you deserve this based on how you're acting. Well, it seems like she is not phased, right? I don't think she is because she keeps continuing it. She does it anyway, yeah. She must think I'm the problem, but I'll just interrupt her and go, I'm going now. Bye.

Like, I just can't tolerate this. Like we have wasted an extra 20 minutes of my life. So that's what really grinds my gears. And what does Jim Harreld say? Tease me right off. It freaking teased. Oh, I'm so freaking teode. Freaking teed off, he said.

He said, I'm freaking T'd off. And we said, you know how like I do, I don't know if you guys know that I- No, he said T-O'd. I was like, you can't even say the word off. It's really good. I think he said T'd off. I think he said T'd off.

Either way, it was good. We'll rewind the tape, but basically, because it deserves being like verbatim, but you know how, I don't know if you guys know this, but I'm known for like the claw, is like when we're together the Christine claw Christine claw I will like grab somebody's kind of upper arm like their elbow area right here right I don't know what the deal is but you like it right here no if you can't reach it you get me right here okay yeah it's wherever my clock can obtain purchase.

And if I when we there was like a psychic claw between us when that happened, we both were like, did you just hear that? But we were in person. We both clocked it. We would talk about it later at dinner. Yeah, it was like that like virtual claw of like, oh, my God, did you just hear him say, I'm freaking teed off? And the thing was, he was actually really pissed off. And really so funny. That was truly the most Midwestern way

he could have handled it. And it wasn't on air either. Like he was just talking to us. It's not like he had to like censor himself for the show. He's just a dad and that's how he talks. And we were like, ah, freaking teed off is the funniest thing. It was beautiful.

Anyway, you know what really tees me off is having to hear someone say goodbye 13 times. And by the way, I'm also guilty of this because every time we can't end an episode, we do it. So I mean, yeah, like we clearly are the problems here, but that's okay. It's okay when I do it. I can't stand what other people do. No, that's usually how these things go. And it pisses me off just as much as not knowing what the word

merchant is and this man's a fucking merchant of lumber and coal. Apparently he's groceries. Merchandise. Oh, yeah, you're right. It still doesn't make sense. He works amongst those industries, I guess. And then he ends up having to cancel all of them because Chauncey Griggs, he decides that he has to, I don't know if he decided this, he has to go join the Civil War. He joins the Union, thank God. And he climbs the ranks surprisingly fast to me, but maybe that's the norm of a fucking 14 year old.

Well, he showed up and said, I'm a lumber merchant. And they were like, well, shit, you seem pretty advanced compared to us farm boys, I guess. At one point in like Vicksburg, he worked alongside like General Grant or something like he was, he seems to have done well in the army. And he's discharged by 1863 because of an illness, which I feel like that wouldn't get you off these days. I feel like you just get sick and just keep being in the army. Yeah, but when they said illness back there,

then it was probably like several of his limbs fell off. You know, and like he's had a bad, he's just feeling under the weather. Yeah. So he goes back to being a merchant and then he later joins the state legislator and the Minnesota Senate. So like this guy, I don't know if he's,

I don't know if this is normal. I can't tell because it's just the 1800s. I don't think so. I think it's just one of those where he got on a path and it was like, okay, you're advancing very rapidly. This is your track now. He's just one of the lucky ones. Because I'm sure like a normal farm kid,

like isn't, you know, a merchant of whatever. You know, I'm sure there were plenty of people who were just your average blue collar. I would like to go back to the 1800s and see how quickly I could climb the ranks of any industry I think I I mean I would need like my phone charger but I could you know you'd probably need like an entire range of all right yeah let's be real let's just be real I wonder what they would give me instead of a parental all at My propranolol. All right, yeah, we would, let's be real. Let's just be real. I wonder what they would give me instead of propranolol at the apothecary and the 1800s.

Cocaine. It would be cocaine, yeah, for sure. Except that would probably do the opposite and make your heart spin out. Yeah. Eventually he gets married. Let's see, he was born in 80, no, he was born in 32 and now we're in 59, so he's 27. Okay, so he waited long to get married. He married Martha Ann Gallup and over the years they had five kids. And in the 1880s, they wanted

a house in the area and they built a house on Summit Avenue, which is a big deal. It came to be known as this like massive row of Victorian mansions that still stands today. Oh, wow. And many notable figures lived on this row. Sinclair Lewis lived on this row. Today, it's still known as like one of the best preserved strips of Victorian era homes in the country. Ooh. And it has been named one of the 10 great streets in the country.

Oh, my gosh. Which can you imagine walking down the street for Christmas lights? Oh, and Halloween, oh. Are you kidding me right now? Are you kidding me? Meanwhile, Frank Lloyd Wright called it the worst collection of architecture in the world.

He's such a little dick. He was like, well, I didn't make it. So it's gotta be fun. First of all, relax, just because it's not a bunch of rectangles topped on top of each other with a waterfall coming through it. Okay, like not everybody is going to be so extra. Not everyone can have a waterfall, especially in the 1880s, please. So anyway, Summit Avenue to this day is a big thing.

You can still go there and walk around. Although I have heard, I will give him a little credit that I have watched one of those, you know those like four hour YouTube videos where you're like, oh, I know nothing about this, but I'm just gonna sit here in awe as I watch four hours of somebody discuss like how the lines work as a Disney Fastpass, like that kind of thing.

And you're like, whoa. So I watched one once about the history of Victorian houses and how they were actually considered the McMansions of their time because they were so gaudy and like over the top. And so they'd have, you know, turrets that didn't really lead to anything. They'd have like chimneys and really like nonsensical places. And they were just meant to look really grand and imposing and beautiful. And so people back then thought they were like these monstrosities because they were, they were like very gauche, very like new money. And so people back then thought they were like these monstrosities because they were like very gauche, very like new money.

And so they were basically the McMansions of their era. And now we look back and think, oh, what a beautiful piece of architecture. Which is wild. I mean, that's one of my favorite fun facts is that people during the Victorian era thought Victorian homes were ugly. Just like so tacky, you know? I don't know what it is about them now.

I think it helps that a lot of us are really into year round spooky season because it does look like a witch should live there. I think so too. But yeah, that's so wild to me that it just, I mean, I get it too, because it sure looked like just rich people just adding things onto buildings and you could use that money somewhere else. I totally get that. Or just like, what do you think you're trying to prove? Like, why are you putting a chimney there when there's no fireplace or whatever? I feel like it felt like then how it feels now when someone gets like a really annoying sports car and flies it down your neighborhood at 2 in the morning. Yeah, yeah. It's just like, oh, shut up.

Like, you know you're not going more than 30 miles per hour. It's at Los Angeles. And no one is impressed. We're all slow clapping for how embarrassing you look. So maybe that's how they felt about people getting Victoria homes. So Chauncey Griggs, he goes to Summit Avenue. He's like, this is going to be the place. And he builds his mansion on Summit Avenue at number 476. It is a private residence today. So look from afar. But it is famously known in town as the Griggs Mansion. So I'm not like spilling information. But when he had it built, it ended up being four stories, 24 rooms, 10 of which were bedrooms.

Holy shit. Which how many guests are you having at a time? That you need 10 bedrooms. Well, how many kids did they have? They had five. Holy vey, yeah. And you can put three or four of them in one room at that time, for sure.

Yeah, back then, you weren't, not everyone got their own room. Probably one big room. What the fuck? Nine fireplaces, fun fact. And it cost, I know you love this part, it cost $35,000 at the time, which is 1.2 million today. Okay.

And I'll tell you, 1.2 million today could not get you a 24 room house. To build a house? I mean, you know, maybe it's like the area was so kind of not desirable yet. Like maybe that was just not, but it sounds like there were already mansions on there and it was already a desirable spot. I don't know. I don't know. And it was in like what would be a major railroad city and all that.

Well, you know what, hang on. He's a merchant of lumber or something. Maybe he got some discounts. You're totally right. He did that little five finger discount. I just swiped some lumber. Yeah, you're right. You're right. They also built a carriage house in the back which still stands today. Fun fact, the carriage house cost $12,000, which is 400k today, a half a million dollar fucking carriage house on top of the house. It's like half the price of the whole house.

Yes. I'm like how on earth, like at that point, so that technically if it's half the size of the house, it could have like 12 bedrooms in it or something. Maybe he'd used up all his goodwill with the lumber folks and they were like, we're done giving you free stuff. You got to pay for this one. Maybe it was supposed to be added onto the real house and he just didn't get enough wood to like connect them. And now they're just two spaces.

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I love Snakes in Suits, which is about psychopaths in the No, I have loved audible for years. I love snakes and suits which is about psychopaths in the workplace, sociopaths in the workplace. My friend Nicole Bigley who wrote Looking for Angels listening to her audiobook as well. There's so many good options and it's the best thing when you're cooking, when you're driving. Find the genres you love and discover new ones. Explore bestsellers like ours, new releases like ours, plus thousands of included audiobooks, podcasts and originals that members can listen to all they want with more added all the time. There's more to imagine when you listen.

New members can try Audible now free for 30 days with your first audiobook included. Visit audible.com slash drink or text drink to 500 500. That's audible.com slash drink or text drink to 500 500. So despite the luxurious mansion that they built, the Griggs family only lived there for four years. I cannot imagine only living somewhere for four years after spending basically $2 million. I have just lived four years in this house and I was just saying to somebody,

I finally feel like it's our house. Like I finally feel like we're starting to make it like our own. I mean, geez, that's fast. You know what's so weird is apparently like around five years is the number to get adjusted to a big change. And I remember when I first moved to LA, an Uber driver was like, oh, give it five years.

You'll feel like a local. And I was like, five years, I'm not gonna be here in five years. I was like, that's a long fucking time to expect me to just wait around. But he was right after five years, I was like, Oh, I feel like I know what I'm doing in LA. I agree.

It took me about four. And then in this house, it's about four to four and a half. Yeah. If that's a good point, I hadn't really thought of that. So maybe it just takes half a decade. Yuck. Um, give the 20th of your life, you know, just see what happens. So anyway, they only lived there for four years. And they ended up moving

to Tacoma, Washington, which I guess is West also. Maybe he thought the West thing worked last time I'm going to move West again. Maybe he finally got a map and was like, Oh, shit, I thought I was halfway in the Midwest. Oops. So he moves to Tacoma with his family and in 1910 he dies. But you know, all the way west. And then he dies. It's like such an anticlimactic way to... He would tell me everything about his different industries and how many rooms his house had and then he moved and he died.

Okay. Well, so, okay, I'll give you a fun fact then. When he died, it was 1910. The same year he died in Washington, the Griggs Mansion caught on fire. In Washington? He died in Tacoma, Washington. So he built a new one in Washington? No, no, no. He dies in Tacoma, Washington.

The same year that he died while he was in Tacoma, Washington, going back to the Griggs mansion in St. Paul. The same year he dies, the house he built years ago catches on fire. And it nearly totally destroyed the building. It had to be completely restored. And during this time, it also got turned into apartments or parts of it got turned into apartments. I think the bottom half became apartments in the top part, didn't it? I don't totally understand. But in 1939, the mansion was donated to the St. Paul School and Gallery of Art, and it became an art school. And it became an art school that, because it had apartments at the bottom now, students and staff could basically live on campus. Okay. I don't know how big the apartments are because I'd like to know how many staff and students,

like was there a lottery of whether or not you could live on campus or? Right, because if there are 10 rooms, 10 bedrooms, like do, is it like two per bedroom? And were they mass, because I don't know the square footage either, maybe those 10 bedrooms could be split up into multiple spaces.

Right, interesting. It could have been could be split up into multiple spaces. Right. Interesting. They could have been all studios, you know? Yeah. Anyway, so staff and students could live there. I don't know the process on that. And they claimed to see and feel weird things throughout the mansion when it was a school. They could feel something lurking over their shoulders when they worked on their art projects. Some of them would literally see a man standing behind their easels while they worked and then dart away. Are you kidding me? Imagine focusing so hard on your computer screen that you don't even see what's

going around your computer screen. And when you lift your eyes up for a second, a man is fucking standing there and like darts off. And then he's like, and runs away. Yeah, forget it. Yeah. there and like darts off. And then he's like, wow, and runs away. Yeah, forget it. Yeah. Um, it's like, no, I'm scared. Not you. Jesus. Others claim that at night they would be shaken awake while in their beds and they would see apparitions in their room. One student saw a child floating above their bed. Oh good. And one professor saw an apparition that he originally thought was an intruder. Um, this guy, his name was Dr. Kolb. And when he was staying there, he said, I awoke and saw a figure at the foot of my bed.

It was a thin figure dressed in black. I remember clearly it wore a top hat. And then he watched the figure dissolve into the brick wall of his room. Oh, it makes me wonder if it's like just the hat man or if it was actually... Was he just taking the 1930s version of Benadryl before he went to bed?

Right, oh my God, yes, which is cocaine. Um... It's all cocaine. Creepy. Yeah, so I can't imagine like having to... You're getting shaken awake by ghosts, seeing them floating above you, and then you have to go to class the next day

where they're now staring over you and looking past your easel and probably judging your art. Oh, for sure judging. And being like the art instructor too, like imagine having to be in charge and then you're like, wait, shit, now I'm scared. Now I don't know what to say.

I would be like class dismissed. I'm so fucking tired of this. Yeah. I can't imagine, maybe that's how so few people were able to live there at a time because people just kept fleeing. They were like, oh, there's always a vacancy. Oh, this child has kicked me out of my bed again. Or like, I'm so scared of the ghosts, I'm going to leave.

And then another unassuming person takes their rent over. I mean, it kind of tracks. Keep switching. So this was two nights. Oh, sorry. He saw the hat man maybe two nights after he'd already woken up to seeing flashing lights in his room and feeling ice cold fingers pressing into his forehead. Oh, actually, you know what?

That feels kind of nice. Like, I feel like I would like that. Maybe it's out of my green. Yeah. Like, I feel like that would really help meet my sinuses, but I know that's not the idea. I would like that. Maybe if you had a migraine. Yeah. Like I feel like that would really help meet my zinuses, but I know that's not the idea. I'm so sorry. Did you just say zinuses, my sweet little German?

I said zinuses. I don't believe you. I swear I said zinuses. Say September right now. No, don't. You can't put me on the spot like that. It's November. You have like 10 more months before that has to happen again.

You know what's so sad? Well, maybe it's not sad that we have to remember before the Thanksgiving episode to do Pass the Cranberry Sauce. That's what I'm going to say. We'll remember. Eva. And by we, I mean somebody will remember.

It's not me. OK, so yeah, he wakes up. He sees flashes of light. He feels fingers on his head. And then he wakes up and sees the Hat Man two days later. Yeah, that's not good. Griggs Mansion, now an art school, it was an art school from 39 into the 60s.

Oh, okay. So a lot of time for people to see ghosts there. And when the school relocated to, I think it became, there was another building called the St. Paul Arts and Science Center. I think they relocated over there. Oh Apparently a lot of students and teachers were like not upset about it because they were like this place is so fucking hot Please get us out of here. We're done with this fucking Nouveau-Riche bullshit McMansion Full of ghosts. Although I will say it had to be lovely

aesthetically to be in a Victorian mansion Beautiful beautiful stunning. So when the school moved out, the Griggs Mansion became a private residence again, and this time to a guy named Carl Wesk. I think that's how you say it. One source literally had the pronunciation

and it said Wesk, so. Fantastic. Carl was a well-known occult book publisher. He was in charge of Llewellyn Publishing, Carl was a well-known occult book publisher. He was in charge of Llewellyn Publishing, which apparently is, quote, the oldest and largest publisher of new age, metaphysical, self-help, and spirituality books in the world.

Yes, I know about them actually. Oh, great. Okay, so he was in charge of that publishing company. They do a lot of like Wiccan, witchcraft and Wiccan stuff. Fun fact, one of the things that Llewellyn publishing is responsible for is Fate Magazine, which I have talked about in previous episodes.

I forgot all about Fate Magazine. And then I looked in my emails and apparently I have been subscribed for a while and I get all their mass emails. You're like, this is ringing some weird bell. Like Gmail is always doing that thing up top. Like you haven't opened this for a while. Should you unsubscribe?

And it never works. I looked in my, one of the folders where it doesn't just pop up in your inbox and all of a sudden it all just said, fate magazine updates. Actually that feels very fateful though. Doesn't it? Like very fated.

Yeah. I was like, well, I read about it and I was like, I feel like I've heard of that before. And then I looked it up on my own phone and I went, oh, it's- I'm a fucking subscriber. And fun fact about Fate Magazine, Stephen King's mom used to read him articles from Fate Magazine,

which is what inspired him to write his own stories. I just got a little goose cam. Maybe I should buy this. Maybe I should subscribe. Or you just forward me the emails and I can read them to Leona. Maybe we just share a subscription. Yeah. Well, this is cool Sorry, I just went on there and it looks like life magazine, but they replaced the word life with with fate

Isn't that so funny? I love this so Here's another thing about carl because not only was he a pub like the In charge of the biggest occult book publishing company not only was he in charge of the biggest occult book publishing company, but he was also at different times the Minnesota vice president for the ACLU and the Minnesota president for the NAACP. This is from a blog called Wild Hunt and it was like a goodbye obituary kind of letter to him after he passed. But I thought this was like one of the coolest things I'd ever seen in an obituary kind of letter to him after he passed. But I thought this was like one of the coolest things I'd ever seen an obituary. So and this is for this this

guy this guy. The Carl guy who moved in after the building was a school. So he ran the publishing company and then apparently he also did this stuff. Okay. Okay as grown-ups it can be hard because we're suddenly expected to understand and take care of our finances. For example, like what's a credit score help? It's hard to be a grownup. Okay. Yeah. We've all had a point where we realized it was time to make some serious money moves. Take control of your finances by using a Chime checking account with features like no maintenance fees, fee-free overdraft up to $200, or getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit. Learn more at chime.com slash drink. Chime helps you make progress with fee-free

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That's chime.com slash drink. Chime feels like progress. Banking services and debit card provided by the Bancorp Bank NA or Stride Bank NA members FDIC. Spot me eligibility requirements When he took over Llewellyn, Carl was one of the first to ever produce pagan music recordings on the brand new cassette tape technology. No! He helped organize a local festival called the first American Aquarian Festival

of Astrology and the Occult Sciences, which he later renamed to Gnosticon. Ooh, what is that backwards? That feels like everyone. I know. He was initiated into the American Celtic tradition witchcraft, helped organize the American Council of Witches, and referred Pentagon staff in crafting the updated version of the Witchcraft and Wicca section of the U.S. Army Chaplain's Handbook.

That's the thing. Apparently so. Love this. If someone is in the army and has a chaplain's handbook, can you please show us the witchcraft and Wicca section? Thank you so much. Holy shit. So he was obviously big in a cult. So I can't imagine he just randomly moved

into the Griggs mansion. Yeah. When it had a haunted history. So cool. He actually ran the occult publishing company, Llewellyn Publishinglishing from this property for many years Oh, and I feel like that's very apropos of like I'm going to Run an occult book company out of a haunted house. This is like a haunted Victorian manor for sure

Even in 1969 when he was living there He also had reporters come stay overnight for an article about the mansion's ghostly rumors, which I'll get to in a second. But when he was moving into the house and he started doing renovating, one of the windows kept opening and he was like, oh man, like I'm so fucking annoyed with this. So he literally nailed it shut and the next morning the nails were out and the window was wide open. Yuck. Oh boy. On other occasions he would hear

footsteps throughout the house, he would hear doors opening and closing on their own, and another time Carl was on the stairs and felt himself literally get thrown into the air. Oh! One source said that one night while Carl was out, a neighbor called the police because he heard wailing from inside the mansion and he was like, you gotta get over there. Something's going on. The cops get in there and literally find a man crouching in the corner. Like it was not Carl. Oh, no. So I guess he broke in. I don't know. I don't know. What the fuck? I'm confused because this one source did not give more explanatory information. Yeah, it feels like you should explain that a little more because what was the wailing

from? Yeah, well, was it him? Because see, here's the thing. They found this guy crashing in the corner. He was shivering. And at the same time that they find him, somewhere else in the house, they hear howling, which they never found a source for. They didn't know what to do.

They looked around the house. They found nothing else suspicious, but they brought the man who I'm assuming broke into the house. They brought the man to the cop car and he just kept saying, I've seen death. I've seen death. Whoa.

Maybe Carl had booby trapped the house for intruders. Like I did, you know? And it's like just, it's just like something swoops down like a haunted house attraction. You know what? Let's go with that because I honestly have no other explanation for it. Yeah, that otherwise does not make any sense.

I mean, maybe the guy was like kind of a stalker and he was like really into like occult books and like wanted to go to the publishing company and like broken or maybe it was a guy who just heard that Griggs Mansion is haunted and tried to get in there. And like got spooked or something? He got spooked. Yeah.

I don't know. But so that's just another weird thing. Was Carl like home? No, he like was out for the night and his neighbor called cause he heard the neighborhood crying. I see. Okay. So, so he wasn't the one wailing. Like Carl wasn't even there.

Okay. That's weird. Or howling. I mean, imagine coming home and hearing that someone broke in, they heard howling. He was freaking out and said he saw death in your house. Well, and then they couldn't find the source of the howling and you're like, well, shit, is it still here? Like, is it under my bed?

I mean, Jesus. Well, another time Carl saw an apparition of a man standing in the library doorway and apparently they just stared at each other. Good. He said, neither of us moved. There was no sound. We just kept standing there face to face. He wore a dark suit.

His face was long and thin. His hair was bushy and white. He seemed to have an expression of surprise when he saw me and then faded away. That is so cool. Which I love when the ghosts seem surprised. I do too. Because it's like, oh my God, we're both freaking out right now. Like, wait a minute, you can see me and I can see you.

Holy shit. Um, but that so that could have also been the hat man, but not wearing his hat because it sounded like the same thin man in a suit with white hair. So then maybe it is. Yeah, maybe it is. Or Chauncey Bliss. It could be Chauncey. They also think it might be, um, like one of the old caretakers, um,

because apparently he really liked the library and that's where he saw him at least once. Um, it's also, so yeah, it's thought that when Dr. Kolb who felt the cold fingers on his forehead and he saw the hat man, right. We were thinking maybe it's the same guy. OK. And they both saw the same ghost. So anyway, 1969, this is when the journalists

from the St. Paul Pioneer Press stay overnight for an article about the hauntings. And they brought along with them a psychic medium named Roma Harris. And as soon as Roma got there, Roma said, the house had a heaviness about it. And he felt a shadowy presence of a teenager named Amy, new character on the scene. And we don't know what Amy has to do with the property, but apparently she liked to play piano in the house when she was there.

So maybe she was a student at some point. Or what about did he have any kids named Amy? I don't know if he had any kids named Amy, but it could have been one of his kids. Cause like to play the piano, like maybe she lived there for a few years. Yeah. I don't know. But also if you're an art student,

maybe there was like a random piano somewhere. That's true. Roma also sensed a civil war soldier wearing blue, which would make sense because Chauncey would have done that. So maybe he's still checking on the mansion. And Roma also sensed that someone at some point was shoved and fell on the property,

but it was an accident. Oh... It was an accident. Oops. It was like, way to cover for whoever did that back then. Yeah, they didn't mean to shove you down the fucking stairs. Okay. So the reporters, they had the medium come with them

for the first half of the investigation. And Roma ended up leaving after being like, this is what I sense, good luck for the night. And the reporters were left there by themselves. And they were some punk ass bitches. Oh great. They heard heavy footsteps and creaking. And that's it.

And they fucking flood the house. Wait, what? Oh, I thought you were going to say they were like, oh, like jerks or something. Yeah. Oh, so they just sort of little babies. Yeah. They just. I was like, are you and I better? Seriously? I mean, that can't be right. But they literally just heard footsteps and creaking. And at one point, one of them like felt a presence nearby.

And they were like, I'm out. Wow. Never came back. It was quoted in their article saying we all agreed on one thing there is no prize on earth that could get us to spend a single night alone in that great stone house. I love that they're so quick to scared. They were real I mean people lived there and dealt with this but okay. Yeah sure. Imagine if they saw that window with the nails fly open. Ah, imagine if they saw the child floating above them in bed. Imagine if they had fingers pressed into their head.

Actually, that might be nice. Again, I beg of these ghosts, please. Give me some sinus relief. After Carl eventually moved out, the mansion switched between many hands, and we don't know how many, we don't know why they left, but we do know that weirdly anyone who's ever moved in has very quickly moved out. So maybe they're all just scared of footsteps, maybe something scarier is happening.

Maybe there's just like that energy, you know? It sounds like the psychic medium was like, ooh, the vibes are not good. Maybe like after moving in, you're like, I don't feel good here You know, yeah, yeah in the early 2000s it was on the market for a very long time and it dropped quite a significant amount price-wise because they were just desperate to sell it and It eventually sold I think in 2012 and it's now a private residence.

That was also the recession too. Oh, okay, so yeah, that might've had something to do with it then. Yeah. As last reported, the mansion still has original stained glass wood paneling and that carriage house out in the back. So, the other, there's not too many, but other popular ghosts

here. The first one that every source mentioned was that in 1915, there was a maid who worked here and she was because she always fucking as was jilted by her lover. And she apparently hanged herself on the fourth floor landing. And because of that, now the fourth floor is said to be the most active spot where people hear a lot of footsteps. So that maybe they freaked out because they knew that story and it confirmed the rumor and that was enough for them. And people also claim to see a white mist near the landing.

They sense overwhelming doom. People get sick. People hear crying in empty rooms on the fourth floor. And people also hear like dragging footsteps that like more ominous. When I told you that there was a caretaker near the library that maybe this is the hat man that everyone's saying. People think it could have been the caretaker or the gardener. His name was Charles Wade.

And he allegedly would spend hours and hours in the library, which like sounds like you're not doing your job, Charles. And he- Then he's dusting the books. Well, he's now seen here and he's heard flipping through the book pages. You can hear pages always turning in there. Oh, that's cool.

And of course there's the white haired man in the suit and the top hat. So again, I can't tell if the hat man and Charles, the caretaker are the same person, but maybe not because if you're a caretaker gardener, I don't know why you would be in a suit and a top hat. I mean, maybe back then that was like your... The standard.

Oh, not a gardener, I guess. Maybe, well, you know what? Maybe it's like one of those situations where he's like the manager of the gardening staff or something or the cleaning staff. The garden merchant. The garden merchant. Like maybe he's like the home caretaker,

you know, like the top guy and he like directs and delegates, I don't know. Yeah, maybe. I feel like that was a thing. Like the one in charge of all the other servants. Yeah, yeah. The head servant. Yeah, something like that.

People also see, like I said, shadows darting around. They feel something brushing by them. They hear doors opening and closing. They'll hear a lot of coughing and empty rooms. Items will fly off the shelves by themselves. Light bulbs have shattered on their own. Yikes. And one source said that a paper bag

jumped off of a shelf and then jumped all around the floor by itself. What? Like just kept like scooting itself. I guess. I don't know. That feels weird. That feels like a cat got into it. Yeah. You know how cats run around with paper bags on their heads? Yeah. Just like charge at it out of nowhere. Yeah. Um, anyway, there's up to like seven or eight spirits in total at this house that we know of and whether it has anything to do with the spirits, I already said this, but nobody has ever stayed

at the Griggs Mansion for more than a few years. So that adds to the spooky factor. And the Griggs Mansion is known to be one of the most haunted houses in Minnesota and the most haunted house in St. Paul. Wow, I wonder the people who live there, like, or in town, I mean, if you guys have any insight. Way in.

Yeah, way in. I would love to hear if people have, like, visited, or did they do tours, or is it... Oh, it's private residence, you said. Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah. But maybe if you, if you, uh,

maybe do a little sightseeing during the Christmas light stuff. Yeah, yeah. You bump some bows. Bump some bows? I'm sure if you, we already missed our shot now, but there's no way that they don't expect people on Halloween to approach them and at least ask, like, what have you seen?

To be curious, for sure, for sure. Yeah. Wow, good story, Em. I like that one a lot. Hey, I don't know about you, but my skeleton just got stolen off my porch and I'm ready for SimpliSafe to expand over to my garage. I was going to say for the second time you've had it stolen.

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This week only, you can get 60% off any new system with a select professional monitoring plan. Head to simplysafe.com slash drink. That's simply safe, S-I-M-P-L-I, safe.com slash drink. There's no safe like Simply Safe. Okay, very, very nice. I wonder if someday we're going to have stories of like, McMansions that are super haunted.

Probably. You know, grandiose for the future times. Well, you know, it's so weird is I feel like you don't ever hear these days. You don't hear yet, at least about McMansions that are haunted, even though back then it seems like only the mansions were haunted. And now it's only the old tiny little creaky cottages that are haunted, even though back then it seems like only the mansions were haunted and now it's only the old tiny little creaky cottages that are haunted. And I don't know why architecturally it has,

the expectation has changed. I bet you someone's written a dissertation about that. I'm sure there's someone. Right? Yeah, because yeah, you're right, that there are very few McMansions that have a story like this. But back then you never hear about like the small house. But then I wonder if it's because like you weren't.

A popular enough merchants that no one cared about your haunted house. I don't know. Or maybe because a lot of the houses don't stand anymore, unless they're an old Victorian landmark. That's a good point. Or unless they had some like historic story that can kind of be hidden to the ghosts, like some famous backstory.

Wow, okay, that was good. I am going to tell you a story today that I have been planning on doing for, once again, like years. Okay. Christine, what are you going to eat later today? Thank you for asking. I don't know yet. Do you have a craving? What are your cravings these days? You know that Jimmy John's we had was really good with the cucumber.

That was really damn good. Me and JJ's. I'm kind of feeling like. Some Indian. Oh, what do you feel like? Oh, man, Christine, I don't even know. I saw it's another one of those things where I don't want to cook it. I just wanted to appear.

But I saw someone make a white sauce lasagna, which really got me going because I do not like a red sauce. That was that like an Alfredo situation or like a chicken Alfredo lasagna. And I was like, Mama Mia, like, my tummy hurts just thinking about it. I got that next to that in a slab of the steak that Maggie just sent us. I was going to say, you got that steak ready to go. Yeah. Good job. Wow. I sometimes if I'm in a cooking mood in the future, usually when I'm in a cooking mood, it's some sort of pasta thing.

And I think that lasagna is coming up next. I was going to say, and I love like a baked pasta situation. Oh, so I will tell you, I make the best mac and cheese and it's a baked mac and cheese. The best. I don't, I only like baked mac and cheese these days. I've started upping my standards. I'm like, I just like baked mac and cheese.

That's my new thing. The next time I'm at your house, Leona and I will make you a baked mac and cheese. It's very easy, it's kid friendly. Oh my God, she I will make you a baked mac and cheese. It's very easy. It's kid friendly. Oh my God. She would love that. She loves mac and cheese.

Okay. So I have a story for you today that I've been hoping to do for years, many years. It's a very famous one. I don't know if you'll have heard of it, but you may have heard of the name. This is the kidnapping of J.C. Lee Dugard. And J.C. is spelled J-A-Y-C-E-E. Okay. No, I haven't heard it. Okay. is spelled J-A-Y-C-E. Okay. No, I haven't heard it.

Okay. So it's a doozy. J.C. Lee Dugard was born in California in 1980. And the reason I thought maybe by the way that you'd heard about it is because it was sort of our... Age range? Yeah, she's like 10 years older than us. And so it's kind of similar age range. Her mother, Terry, was estranged

from Jacey's biological father. So Jacey spent her early childhood living alone with her mother or occasionally with her mother's family, Terry's family. And whenever Jacey asked about her father, Terry would tell her that sadly he was not interested in being in her life, which is just like, how do you even have that conversation?

That's rough. And he had actively chosen to not know his daughter. So she just had to learn that from a young age. Yeah. But J.C. did her best to understand her father's absence. But, you know, of course it hurt to be out and about, especially like in the eighties, it's like a less... I feel like just, it's an earlier time. Whatever that may mean, it's an earlier time. Mm-hmm.

Whatever that may mean, it's an earlier time. So she's seeing all these families with dads and she's feeling hurt and a little bit sad. When she's seven, her mother marries a man named Carl, another Carl, Probin. And unfortunately, JC did not really get along well with her stepdad, which is a bummer, because it

looked like she was really looking for that kind of father figure. Yeah, that sucks. You finally get a dad and it's still not 10 out of 10. And you know why? Because he wasn't really interested in getting to know her. Or like... Damn, she can't catch a break with these men. It's just like not fair.

Why would you not want to get to know an interesting 11-year-old child? Like I bet they're full of stuff to know. Like I would love to just know an 11-year-old child. I bet they're full of stuff to know. I would love to just know an 11-year-old child and be like, tell me about your, I don't know. I just don't understand people. People are so mean. Anyway, apparently he only ever got involved with her if he was criticizing her.

That's nice. And she often felt like she could do nothing right in his eyes. For example, he said she ate like a slob. He would send her to the bathroom with her dinner so that she could eat in the front of the mirror and see how Disgusting she was holy shit. Wow, you were really burying the lead there and how terrible he is He's very quickly becomes like a neglectful

abusive monster Jesus fuck He also imposed a household rule to brush teeth after every meal and if Jacey forgot she'd be grounded So she's just in this like not happy situation a household rule to brush teeth after every meal. And if Jacey forgot, she'd be grounded. So she's just in this like not happy situation. Once Jacey's friend called to invite her to see a movie and Carl answered the phone and accepted the invitation on Jacey's behalf without telling her. And so when her-

Like he was trying to kick her out of the house or something? Well, so her friend arrived with her dad to pick Jacey up and Jacey was like, what are you doing here? And she asked Carl if she could go cause he was the one who said like, yeah, sure, come over. And he said, well, you didn't brush your teeth a few hours ago.

So actually no. Oh, so it was just to embarrass her. To like mortify her and make her feel ashamed in front of her friend and her friend's parents. Wow, what a winner. So she, of course, started to cry. She offered to brush her teeth right away, but her stepfather was like, no, this is your punishment.

God, this pisses me off. This is T and V right off. So T-ode right now. You have no idea. So J.C.'s friend left without her, and J.C. just had to sit there at home alone and feel just unloved. And so, in 1990, Terri, Jacey's mom, had another daughter named Shana and this became Jacey's

baby sister. After a break in at their apartment, the family moved to a small town called Myers, just south of South Lake Tahoe, California. And Terri and Carl felt this would be a safer place to raise their daughters. Um, but of course, Carl was only interested in raising Shana, his biological daughter. He was very indulgent and affectionate with the baby, which also I'm like, even though he was like affectionate with her, I'm sorry, if you're not like a good

person, there's not, no way you're going to be a good parent to this child either. You know what I mean? Like it seems like at the core you're a bad person. I could see you being like 1% better because you're 1% less cool to your own blood. Well it's like you're treating her better. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Like you're treating her better, but it still doesn't make you a good parent because you're clearly at the core of bad parent. And so anyway, of course this made Jacey feel even more lonely because now she's watching

this father figure who doesn't care about her or who's cruel to her be like affectionate with this baby and she doesn't even have her own father figure, you know, it's just really hard. So if Carl didn't see J.C. as his daughter, she felt like completely out of place, like who, now that her mom had another baby, it's like who, where do I fit in, you know? And it was Carl one day who insisted, you know what? You're old enough to walk to school, walk to the bus stop. And so from then on, she was responsible

for her own mornings, getting ready for school. By the way, she's 11, okay. She's like 10, 11. And he's like, you're old enough. Like basically you're- Well, you know, 14 year olds, but yeah. Yeah. We have the same joke. and he's like, you're old enough. Like basically you're a- Well, you know, 14 year olds, but yeah. I'm just kidding. Basically, we're sending you off to Minneapolis

for St. Paul for business school. You can be in charge of the lumber and the coal and the grocer and you can go to business school in Detroit, yeah. But you cannot go to the movies with your friend. No, and also you didn't brush your teeth. That's so sad. Oh Boy, oh boy, it's a little bit a Little bit a little bit triggering for me. I'll just leave it at that. Okay, so Terry

would leave for work early because That her job her hours were just early in the morning And that was before JC wouldC. would even wake up and Carl would do his own thing and kind of just let J.C. be responsible for herself. So it was business as usual. It's June 10th, 1991, which by the way, how are you not out of school yet on June 10th?

That feels a little bit late, but whatever. June 10th, 1991, when 11 year old J.C. got herself out of bed, got dressed, and she felt a little nauseated, a little sick to her stomach that morning, but she knew better than to ask Carl for permission to stay home from school. Sounds like he was not gonna be

the most empathetic person to talk to. He was probably just gonna embarrass her again. He was probably gonna drive her there and like announce to everybody that she had diarrhea or something. Like it sounds like he just wants to shame the shit out of her in front of all her friends. And she definitely didn't want to spend the day at home with him, right?

So it's like, Ooh, she didn't really have much of a choice. So she ignored her feeling, her like sick to the stomach feeling. And it was almost summer break. So she was like, you know what, we're nearing the end. I'll get through this. And that summer she and her best friend had made plans to work with horses at a ranch. And she was trying to think of a way to get her parents on board to approve of this plan.

But she was also a very shy child. She struggled to kind of make connections with other kids, make connections with new friends. And when her family moved, Terry had signed her up for Girl Scouts. And JC really struggled with this, as did I. She did not feel comfortable selling cookies door to door. And so she would just kind of pair up

with another girl who did all the talking. But in her own way, J.C. could also be very determined. If she really cared about something, she could absolutely dig her heels in when it mattered. And to the point that her mom, Terry actually called her the bull because she could be so stubborn. If she really wanted to work at a ranch that summer,

she just needed to like find a way to pitch this to her parents. So she was thinking about this. She was planning how on earth she was gonna approach this and try to convince them. There was also this upcoming class trip to a water park, which she was very excited about. Damn two things to pitch at once.

Man, she's like, I better play my cards right. I better brush my teeth backwards and front. I better brush my goddamn teeth. Jacey made breakfast. She packed her own school lunch as usual. She looked into the nursery to check on her little sister who was still asleep, which is so sweet. And Jacey loved Shayna, but she shut the door quietly to avoid waking

the baby up, let her be, let her sleep. And she left the house and made her way alone to the nearby school bus stop. Along the route Carl designated, by the way, because he had to designate a path. Because of course you're responsible, you can figure your own way, but you have to do it the way that I say. It's like, okay. Oh my God, pick a fucking lane. I know it's outrageous me right off T&B right off and so he had designated this specific. Sorry. My mother just text me went potty Okay, this is like my whole texting chain. Everybody in the world is telling me these things nowadays and it's great news So she left the house made her way alone to the nearby bus stop

and it's great news. So she left the house, made her way alone to the nearby bus stop along the route that Carl designated because to be fair, the route was easier for drivers to see her. So, you know, she'd be more visible to drivers. Okay, so maybe there was a real reason there. There was some concern there, at least. So, J.C. used to be afraid of walking on her own,

which makes it extra harsh that her stepdad was like, you're old enough, do it by yourself. And she's like, I'm afraid. Figure it out. Yeah, like, you know, most kids are like, please let me go walk down the street to my friend's house. And she's like, I don't want to go alone. And he's like, you have to. So before they had moved, apparently she had had the experience

of men harassing her from a car while she walked places, which like, who has it? Ha ha. Yeah. Like what child hasn't. Wish I could say that that's not normal. Not normal, right? I know. So she had had that experience and she was, and they had even called her over and she had to hide in a bush until she left, until they left. And she was so terrified.

I mean, at this point, she's 11 and this was a couple of years ago. So like she was really little and she was really scared. So after that, her parents sometimes picked her up from school. from school but Jacy in the new town felt a lot safer. She could ride her bicycle wherever she wanted. She had friends nearby that she could play with without any concern. There was this is really really sweet a neighborhood dog sometimes escorted her up the hill like would just walk. Damn even the dogs better than your fucking parents. I know right I know that's also because they are working with seven-year-olds all the time hunting and whatever they're doing. Oh, right, right, right They have a working relationship already. I'm sure that is precious though. Even the dog could sense like I know

She needs a companion, you know or loneliness And so he the dog would occasionally escort her up the hill to the bus stop And of course that made her more confident. This morning, however, he was not there. So Carl was outside when JC left. It seemed like an unremarkable day. But when he glanced up the street to watch as she approached at the bus stop, and to be fair again, he can see the bus stop.

So it's like, at least he knows he can say like, okay, she got on the bus. I mean, part of me thinks maybe that was just to make sure she's not like skipping school, but whatever. I don't know. I totally agree with you. Right? It's kind of like double-sided. But when he glanced up the street to watch her make it to the bus stop, he saw a vehicle

slow down alongside J.C. She didn't notice the vehicle until it had already stopped next to her. And a man rolled down the window to ask for directions. But before J.C. could even speak, the man reached out the window and struck Jacey with a stun gun. Holy shit. She just collapsed. Her whole body just shut down.

She collapsed. She tried to scoot into the bushes behind her, which is like what she did the last time she was hiding from those people. Was the dog with her this time? Like did the dog try to fight them off? Okay. Dog did not come this time. But she was hiding from those people. Was the dog with her this time? Like did the dog try to fight them off? The dog did not come this time. But she was completely disoriented. She felt like her arms, you know, her arms just went completely numb and disoriented

out of her control. She like reached around, she could only feel like pine cones, like there was just nothing that she could do to save herself. She heard two strangers voices, She was lifted into the vehicle and covered up with a thick blanket. And Carl, meanwhile, he didn't see the stun gun, but he heard J.C. scream. And he watched as she was dragged into the vehicle,

kicking and screaming. So he jumped on a bicycle and gave Chase a pill. And the abductors quickly sped out of sight. So Carl like just missed them. He rode back down to the house, shouting at his neighbors to call 911. And on the scene, Carl told the police that two people abducted JC, a man and a woman.

And he had seen both of these people in the car. So he was able to give an exact description of the vehicle's year color, make and model. Several witnesses also saw this because there were several classmates waiting for the bus. So this is like... This has like an audience, this whole thing. Wow, I didn't even think about other children at the bus stop.

I thought it was just her. So this feels like a premeditated, like a targeted thing. I don't know. It's just so shocking, like broad daylight. You know, I feel like these things don't... usually happen like this. But, yeah, so basically, all these classmates saw it. They saw Jacee getting dragged away. They saw the people taking her.

But, of course, like, because it's still dark, like, relatively dark, it's early morning, and it's chaotic, and no one really knows what's going on, so nobody catches the license plate. And, of course, a bunch of kids, you know, you can't expect them to like know what to do. It's moments like that where you want an asshole stepdad because he would know the make model and color of a car.

Literally on the phone, you can hear the 911 call and he's like, it's a gray Honda model, whatever. Like you can hear it, like, because he clearly knew right away, which is like, okay, thank you for paying attention one time. Yeah, so it's just, and this is the 90s, you know, so all that 911 existed, all this, so we still have recordings of the calls,

that kind of thing. In any case, the crime triggered an immediate major search effort to recover J.C., whose daytime abduction in front of multiple witnesses was obviously shocking to the whole community. The FBI got involved in boots on the ground investigative efforts. They set up traffic stops because they were looking at vehicles that matched the description to see if there was anything in the trunk. Volunteers helped Terry,

the mom, hang missing posters for Jaycee all over town. They sent tens of thousands to businesses all over the country to make sure Jaycee's face was everywhere, even outside of state lines in case they took her out of the state. And they were hoping maybe somebody would notice her somewhere far away and the FBI would, you know, know how to bring her back to them. So meanwhile, J.C.'s classmates began wearing t-shirts printed with J.C.'s photo and information. They tied pink ribbons to fences in town, which matched a pink ribbon that Terry had tied to a tree near her own home. And it was pink because

that was J.C.'s favorite color. And of course, the ribbons were, you know, the classic symbol for wishing for a safe return. This case was featured on America's Most Wanted. And after that, hundreds of tips came in after the episode aired. But unfortunately, of course, they were all dead ends. So Carl and Terry made numerous media appearances imploring the public to come forward with any information that might lead to J.C.'s location. J.C.'s biological father, you remember the one who wanted nothing to do with her,

Ken Slayton and her stepdad Carl were early suspects. Good, because you got to check them out. Yeah. It was considered they may have for some reason arranged the abduction together, like they wanted to get rid of her. Like they were in cahoots? Yeah. That was the angle the investigators took at first, but they quickly determined that these two men had never even met nor spoken. So it was like, that was a dead end. They also both passed polygraph tests and Ken was ruled out as a suspect.

Carl, on the other hand, remained under serious scrutiny, especially because he was like the one who called 911 and he had a kind of rocky relationship with her. So he kind of stayed on the radar for a little bit longer. Photojournalist, Yvore Markman, responded to the abduction scene just after the crime took place and he actually really closely followed the case and documented it in tons of photos, which wasn't necessarily like normal for that time period.

And you can look at these photos now, which is really cool. And it shows Terry and Carl in, because now, I mean, cops are wearing like body cams. So like you get the whole scene is being videotaped, but videotaped, you know what I mean? The new technology tape cassettes. Yes. And if you look at this photographer's, this photojournalist work,

it shows Terry and Carl in black and white, speaking to reporters, leading community search efforts. There's like this whole kind of photo journalistic kind of history to this as well. So in one photo that this journalist took, Terry is hugging J.C.'s best friend. So it's really sweet. It's like the mom and J.C.'s best friend

like holding each other. And they're just very powerful, very moving photos. And Yvore later recalled an officer suggesting that perhaps Carl had made sexual advances toward his stepdaughter and then murdered her when she threatened to tell Terry. So this journalist is just there for photos and he's like picking up some wild scoops and rumors and yeah. Well, up until you said that the whole event

was like had an audience because other children were there. I was like, this is so easy for this guy to be saying, I can see it from the window what's happening. And then- 100%. So thank you for adding that because otherwise in my mind right now, I'd be like, it was obviously him. And M, even then, they were,

even though there was this group, they were saying like, maybe he hired someone. Like they still thought he could be responsible. So like you definitely have the same. I feel like if he wanted to hire someone, he would have very, he would have just not looked out the window that day and just like, he wasn't there. Because somebody else would have witnessed. Yeah, that's true.

Because if there were already witnesses there, he wouldn't have needed to be the one to call 911. That's true. Yeah. So and like, why would you hire two people? Anyway, it doesn't matter. But point is, they were thinking like, maybe like Carl had made some sexual advances.

Obviously that was an extreme allegation and they had no evidence of this whatsoever. And these kinds of rumors like are very dangerous to just be saying aloud in front of like people who aren't involved or aren't law enforcement. Like it just feels like why would you be saying that loud enough for the photojournalist to hear, but whatever. And this among police and the public,

scrutiny slowly got to Carl and his marriage as well. He and Terry really struggled to support each other, even though so far they'd had a pretty solid marriage, despite leaving J.Cacey out of it. They did eventually separate and each year following the abduction, Terry, which is so sad, every May she became just inconsolable because June 10th was the day of the abduction. So she, it was like the second May started, she felt like the dread and panic every single year.

And Carl just was not equipped to process that with her. And, you know, once they separated, she was kind of having to do that on her own. And Carl actually later said in an interview, it wasn't between us, we've never had a fight. We're best of friends right now. Just losing J.C. changed Terry's life. Like, there was just no more, I guess, room

for their marriage anymore. And honestly, listen, I don't know that this is true, but I imagine being the mom, there must be some guilt of, like, seeing your husband treating her this way and seeing him treat the baby so much more nicely. And like, I mean, I would think you'd have noticed that as the mom, right?

And so, like... I would hope so, but also maybe, like, you just, like, don't wanna see it, and so you never did. But I could think you'd have noticed that as the mom, right? And so like... I would hope so, but also maybe like you just like don't want to see it. And so you never did. But I can see you reflecting on every moment last you had with your kid. It must be like at least coming back a little bit or subconsciously or something like, oh, we did not treat her right. But yeah, in any case, I'm not blaming her at all.

I'm just saying I'm wondering if that's where her head was at as well. I would spiral for sure. Yeah, it would be incredibly, incredibly difficult. So that's what happened head was at as well. I would spiral for sure. Yeah, it would be incredibly, incredibly difficult. So that's what happened between the two of them. And Carl basically said he allowed himself a really, really, really small, if implausible, comfort. And that was the hope that somehow JC was kidnapped by a loving couple who simply wanted a daughter of their own.

And I think that a lot of parents who are going through this have, at least from what I've seen, have kind of told themselves that that's possible because it's like the last shred of hope. Justify the least scary thing that could happen. Exactly. Exactly. Just to have some hope that like maybe she's okay. Like, you know, not even just alive, but maybe like happy and healthy. Maybe she's being loved, taken care of. Yes, exactly. And that that was obviously a very unlikely possibility.

And stranger abductions are very rare and considered more dangerous than abductions by family members or friends. They are more likely to end badly. Still, Carl dared to hope that maybe she was alive somewhere in the world and maybe even doing well. And meanwhile, Terry continued to keep the case alive in the search efforts for her daughter. She organized a group to oversee events in J.C.'s name, which would keep hope alive for J.C.'s return. It would like pretty continuously trigger new media interest in the case.

So they were very intentional about that. And in the years following the abduction, they held everything from candlelight vigils to music benefits, marches, just to fundraise and keep J.C.'s stories on people's mind. So J.C.'s family meanwhile canvassed through multiple states. Volunteers continued to pass out hundreds of thousands of flyers and the public was very much aware of J.C.'s disappearance, but nobody had answers. So time after time, new tips and leads would come in, but investigators just got nowhere with them. Although Carl gave a perfect description of the vehicle,

finally, his stepdad is good for something. He, like you said, recognized the make-in model of the Honda or whatever it was. The only way better is if he had to identify a train. Imagine, imagine, or like a type of a boat or something. So he gave a perfect description, good for you, clapping for you, Carl. And actually a tip came in describing that same exact vehicle with a young girl sleeping in the back seat,

they were just not able to find the car. So they're like, they think that there are some leads out there. They're just not able to kind of solidify anything. There was, of course, some doubt cast on Carl's account as usual, even if he wasn't involved in J.C.'s disappearance, like maybe he was just not as good of a car stepped out as he thought. Maybe he'd misidentified the vehicle. And then that would have meant they were wasting their time, you know, chasing down this one exact make and model. Maybe he even misidentified the abductors. Maybe it was two men, not a man and a woman.

Like they were just thinking, oh God, how are we even supposed to begin figuring out, like unraveling this? Some people said it was bizarre that Carl had jumped on a bike to try and chase the vehicle, but I also feel like that would be your gut, right? Like, I mean, I don't know, like, if he didn't have a car and you needed to get there, I mean, I would, I would panic and pack the thing closest to me. Well, people were saying he should have stayed and called 911, but like, you're... No, I would have, I would have panicked and ran. Your gut is to, I think your gut would, my gut would be to chase after, even if it's not logical.

I mean, if you saw someone like stun gun Leona when you run towards her. Towards it, right? Like, and I know, I know rashly somewhere maybe in my mind, it'd be like, but he was screaming to the neighbors, call 911, you know? So like, I just don't think it's that outrageous. And also, he could have been able to spot the license plate if he got close enough or something, you know? I mean, I don't think it's fair to say like that was an unreasonable or sketchy thing

to do. Right. But people claim that that was suspicious. And I just think this was all like muddying the case, you know, because a spoiler alert, Carl had nothing to do with it at the end of the day. So it's like, okay, yeah, it's like this is just muddying the waters, even though Carl was a shitty guy, right? And a shitty stepdad. You Carl was a shitty guy, right?

And a shitty stepdad. You can be a shitty guy and not a killer. Right, exactly. Exactly. So Carl remained very adamant about what he had seen. He's like, one thing I can do for my stepdadder is fucking identify the make and model of this car. Please do not doubt me.

Like I know what I saw and his account never wavers. So he should just on to this. He should just get like, shown his stepdad license. I know, right? It's like, exactly. Why can't I go find a car? Of all people, don't question a stepdad.

So when cases involving the abductions and murders of other girls, J.C.'s age were solved, people would start questioning like, oh, maybe the killers had also killed J.C. and maybe now we'll get some answers and they'll confess to what they did and the family will get closure, but that just didn't happen.

So, Terry was haunted by her last interaction with J.C. as well, which I think added, of course, to her turmoil. J.C. had asked her mom to wake her up the next morning before she left for work. So, I mean, morning, more like middle of the night. J.C. had asked her mom to wake her up the next morning before she left for work. So, I mean, morning, more like middle of the night. J.C. had asked her mom to wake her up and give her a hug and kiss goodbye

before leaving for work. And J.C. made her mom promise not to forget. I'm gonna cry. This is so bad. What? She made her mom promise not to forget, but the next morning, Terry was running late and decided she didn't have time, so she didn't go and wake her up

and give her a kiss and say goodbye. So that's what you meant earlier about, like, thinking back on all the, like, the what-ifs or whatever. Like, because I would have also, when you're mid-spiral, of course, you're going to think about the last interaction you had and all the things you did wrong. Exactly. And to think, like, she said, wake me up, give me a hug and kiss goodbye. And you're like, I don't have time. And then you never wrong. Exactly. And to think like, she said, wake me up, give me a hug and kiss goodbye.

And you're like, I don't have time. And then you never see her again. You know, think about that. Like that would be just absolutely heart rending. But then also my OCD gets involved in it's like, well now every time I don't have time to kiss my daughter goodbye, I'm gonna be like, is something terrible gonna happen?

Oh, every time I hug my mom goodbye, I think, could I hug her hard enough just in case yeah, you just? That if if that's an OCD feature lock me up, you know, I will come to my prison It's called my mind and my house and it's well stocked so don't worry There's room for plenty of us. Okay Maybe we could just move into that fucking 24 room McMansion. Honestly, if prison is a 24 room Victorian mansion

up on a hill of a row of perfectly kept, preserved Victorian mansions, lock me up. Lock me up again. Okay, let's see. So, JC had asked her mom to wake her. She said, I don't have time and didn't do it. And then the next morning is when she was abducted. So she had broken her promise and left without saying goodbye to J.C. And now she may never have the chance.

When she needed to talk to her daughter, Terry would sit outside and speak to the moon. God, that's so sad. I know. Little orphan Annie. Oh my God. I know. And hearing her talk about it. She and J.C. used to sit out and look at the moon together.

That was just something they did regularly. Oh, God. I know. So the way they described it was like they would argue or compare or debate, I guess, the qualities of the different moons. And so they would debate like if the crescent moon was better or the full moon was better. And J.C. always said the full moon and her mom always said the crescent moon. And so they just had this kind of like playful banter about it.

And so anyway, her mom would sit outside when she was feeling like connecting with her daughter and would just talk to the moon and wish that she was there. It's just so sad. That's like a, like right out of like a Disney movie or something or I know that's like in the worst way possible but it's just like so heartbreaking. It feels so heartbreaking like out of a movie or something. Yeah.

An old Disney movie where everything was always miserable. Right, where everybody, everything was just racist, misogynist, and also like so inappropriate for children because it was traumatizing. Like Dumbo. You get it. Anyway, yeah, so that's kind of what she would do to cope. But what she couldn't know and didn't know is that over 150 miles away in Antioch, California,

J.C. was alive. Oh! Was also looking up at the moon, talking to her mom. So it was a Disney movie all along. Are you kidding me? Sure fucking was. Oh my God. 18 years before they would see each other again.

And J.C. would have to survive the unthinkable to make it home to her family and that is the end of part one. Fuck you with these part ones and twos. I hate this. I'm sorry this one is just such a big case like there was it was going to be four more hours to get to the rest. Oh my god, Christine. But like, Sersha very good on the cliffhanger.

Thank you. I love a cliffhanger. Thank you. I love a cliffhanger. Okay, well, she's alive. I love a cliffhanger when I get to say the cliffhanger, not when anyone else does. Okay, well, dang, good job. Okay, well, now I got to wait all week. I know, except we're recording tomorrow.

So, everyone else has to wait all week. Wait all week. You get to know tomorrow. What are you doing until tomorrow when I get to hear the rest of it? Great question. I think that nap really zapped me of like my sense of reality.

So everything, you know when you sleep and like time feels warped, cause you're like, wait, it's afternoon now, not morning. I feel like I'm kind of lost as to like what I'm supposed to be doing today. But I think I might am. This is this is kind of shocking. So sit down, everyone. I think I'm buckled. Hang on.

Just like read or hang out or like. No, I probably won't. My therapist told me I have to do that. My therapist told me I have to spend more time just not doing stuff, just like sitting or watching a show or being on- Couch rot, like I told you last time? You did, tell me that. And can you confirm for the audience

that last time I told you you should bed rot couch rot, it worked? Oh my God, you're right, I did. I texted you after that. You're 100% right. You texted me a thank you. I did text you a thank you. I forgot about that.

That was so, it was like a balm to my soul, really. A balm? Just like this nap was, I think I'm trying to fix myself slowly but surely. So what I might do today, Em, is I might draw some new stickers for my little shop, you know, because I've been drawing more on my iPad and just like watch a show or something.

Watch Grace and Frankie. You know what people would get a kick out of if you let Leona draw something. Okay, that would be funny. That would be very funny. And you got her some great gifts when we were in Austin. Oh yeah, did she open them? I have multiple videos to send you.

She lost her mind and the Pete the Cat one, we spent about 45 minutes last night delaying bedtime because she wanted to keep doing it. Yeah, you've really changed the game. We went to, when we had a book signing, we went to the bookstore afterwards to go shopping for ourselves. And I got Leona a Pete the Cat activity book.

I got her a Spidey activity book. I got her a... Okay, the Spidey one is like a movie projector onto your wall. Yeah. And so she was like, it's Gobby. Like it's, it's ghost fighter, you know, Green Goblin is named Gobby in the show.

And so they're like, it's very- I got her two others. I don't remember what the books were. You got her a frozen gel pen and she doesn't understand the pens cause they're not, like she holds them like this. And she's like, these don't work. And I'm like.

They were all activity books that came with a thing to use in the activity book. Right, stickers or. And then what was the fourth one? Keep the cat. It really doesn't matter. I was just curious. Am I okay?

What the hell did I get her? I mean, I just opened it. What else does she like? I thought it was those three and then... What was the characters? Oh, Eva's right. Eva fucking knows, of course. It was the Paw Patrol sticker book, puzzle book.

And by the way, thank you, Eva. I need you to understand, she's done almost every puzzle. There's like 40 of them in there. She's done like almost all of them already. Are you serious? I had to go on and have fun you serious? I literally just got it for her like yesterday. I know. No, literally as we're recording this, it's like 48 hours ago, she almost did the whole book. I went on Amazon because we're going to Thanksgiving in Connecticut and I'm like, I need activity stuff for her. So I went and bought a bunch of just like sticker,

it's like color by sticker sort of is what they're called I think. Yeah. And it has an A. I saw one, they have my target too, homie. Okay, great. Cause I, this is apparently our new passion in life. Oh no, I literally after the election, which, okay, hello.

Now we all know what happens at the end of the election. I know, remember when we were being so coy. I've got to Dallas early to like go like enjoy Dallas. and then I was so bummed that I just went to Target and bought a bunch of coloring and sensory activities. Yeah, because you were at the... Sorry, in Dallas for the election. Yeah. Yeah.

And that's where I found out about Color by Sticker, which I also did. I do love those. And it's quite a blast. I have those grown-up ones that I've done for years, and it never occurred to me they had kids ones. And I was like, oh oh wow, she loves it Anyway, sorry. I forget why I was ranting about that. But basically I think I'm just gonna chill and color and draw and Well because today Wednesdays are Oma's days. So she's not even gonna be home till like

8 p.m. Wow. That's, that's- Well, if you ever need someone to babysit, I'm right here, I'm right on the phone. I don't know what to tell you. Please, I'll just put her in the room with you on your FaceTime. Great. Okay.

And? That's. Why. We. Drink.