And That's Why We Drink - E421 Frenemies in Relaxing and a Mid Nap Yap

Episode Date: March 2, 2025

Welcome to Episode 421 where all roads lead to the Em-pire. This week we’re headed to England! First for Em’s part 1 on The Cage of St Osyth, a former prison/holding place for many accused of witchcraft in the 1580s. Then Christine kicks of her two-parter on the tragic story of Billie-Jo Jenkins which will have some major plot twists next week! And remember, to be known is to be loved… and that’s why we drink! For a list of resources or ways to help those affected by the fires in Los Angeles visit: bit.ly/atwwdfirehelp ! The Pour Decisions Tour is back on the road! Catch us this month in Monterey and San Luis Obispo, California! Get your tickets today at andthatswhywedrink.com/live ! ______________________ For 30% off your order, head to Orgain.com/DRINK and use code DRINK Get the right life insurance for YOU, for LESS, at SELECTQUOTE.com/DRINK Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to RocketMoney.com/drink today. You’ve got to try GOODLES mac & cheese, and don’t forget their nutrient-packed pasta too! Pick some up when you’re out shopping... GOODLES is available nationwide at major grocery stores, Target, and Walmart. We know you’re going to LOVE GOODLES as much as we do! Take the online quiz and introduce Ollie to your pet. Visit https://ollie.com/DRINK today for 60% off your first box of meals! #ToKnowThemIsToLoveThem Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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["The Star-Spangled Banner"] ["The Star-Spangled Banner"] ["The Star-Spangled Banner"] ["The Star-Spangled Banner"] Hello, Govna. How are you today? Welcome to And That's Why We Drink. Thank you.

You sound beautiful. I know you cannot hear yourself today with your Bluetooth headphones. It's making me feel absolutely insane. Like I feel like I'm- Is it like when you want to do this? You can want to pop your ears. Yes. That's what it sounds like, Em.

Thank you for describing it because I feel like my brother always says he prefers it this way. but to me, it's like I'm muffled in my own, like I'd rather hear the feedback in my own ears. You just like to hear yourself, yeah, just be honest. Just be honest. Obviously. I mean, I like it. I wouldn't want it any other way.

I get to hear myself talk, oh my God. What a dream job we have. Ah, man, quit bragging. I just hear you today. Ah, you're doubly lucky, Christine. Oh, I know. Christine, I'm so sleepy today. I'm glad I pushed recording an hour.

Let's talk about how lucky I am. Yeah, I. You just wrote back like, LOL, okay, and I was like, oh no, did I just ruin Em's plans? Oh no, you just said LOL, sure. And I thought, uh oh, I hope Em wasn't ready to hop on. Never. So I'm glad to hear you went back to sleep, hopefully.

Always, always. Good, okay, good, okay. But I've got one extra sleepy line on my eye today, so. Oh, I see him. I'm not aging, I'm just mid nap, let's put it that way. Yeah, aren't we all? So, I don't know. I get to see you in a week, less than a week.

I know. Valentine's Day, say it a little, hey, let's do another take, cut. I need you to act a little more excited to see your soulmate next week. Hmm, okay. And well, if you're gonna call yourself out, are we gonna kiss? I don't know.

Silence on set. Silence on set. Action. Weeeee! I was hoping for line. Line. Line, okay. I'm your understudy.

Oh my god, I can't wait to see you, Christine. It's gonna be magical to reunite. Oh my God, I can't wait to see you, Christine. We're gonna hold hands. We're gonna. That's why they pay you the big bucks. We've got it, folks. That's a wrap.

Okay, yeah, that's all we're gonna do. Just hold hands. The end. I had to cut you off before I go. Leave something to the imagination. Before I really got excited? Okay, yeah. Yeah, gotta rein you in.

Well, are you excited to see me? I'm very, well, obviously, okay, I'm directing a whole day. My directorial debut is about a reunion. It's like you're enacting and directing role, you know, your dual payment. That's exactly right. I'm the star and I run the show. That's how all my home videos were when I was young,

which is incidentally very interesting. No, I'm excited and it's Valentine's Day that weekend and turns out Blaze is coming with me up to Cleveland and we're leaving the baby in Cincinnati with my mom. So Blaze and I are gonna have a romantic night in Cleveland with you and I can't wait. Oh, you wish you'd told me that before. I needed to get excited about our romantic date

that a man would be there, but okay, that's fine. I wanted your, it's sort of like Spielberg, like I wanted your real reaction. I didn't wanna like give that info to you ahead of time. Do like the act two plot twist. It's like what Quentin Tarantino does where he just like suddenly sprays everyone with blood. So do you know how I know that fact?

No. Okay, this is one of my favorite facts. Because you and Quentin Tarantino spent time in the same asylum it sounds like. Ah, I wish. Okay, so Quentin. Big Q. Was filp kill the big cue

Or cutie as I call him Okay, you're just starting my feelings now. He'll be in Cleveland to by the way, okay, so we were My he was filming in glorious bastards fucking fantastic film Have you seen that film em true have Okay, so he was filming that and there's a scene in Germany, I think he filmed it in Berlin, and it was when my cousin Bernadette was living in Berlin. And she was, she's really big into cinema and she was like, I want, and Brad Pitt, and she was like, I want to be in this movie, and they were hiring extras.

So she was an extra in the scene at the end where they're all in the movie theater, watching the film, and it's all the Nazis in the movie theater. And so she's playing one of these characters, and actually if you pause it, which I do every time I watch it, you can find her in the audience. Fun.

But then she told us a story about it after, and she was so, she was saying like, oh, I could never post about it because they spent hours on her hair and makeup to look like a Nazi. But you can't post yourself looking like a Nazi, right? Oh, yeah. On social media.

So she was like, I could never even post, this was like 10 years ago. She's like, I couldn't even post about it on Facebook or anything, because I can't have a photo of me dressed like this out there, right? But she was saying, it was so crazy. They spent hours on everyone's hair and makeup. Like it was huge production.

And they had hundreds of extras in the theater audience. And she's like, we were all sitting there and all of a sudden we just got like sprayed with something and everyone started screaming. And he had like, we were all sitting there and all of a sudden we just got sprayed with something and everyone started screaming. And he had not told anyone that during the fire scene or the, he's literally shouting fire in a crowded theater, but he did it for cinema. And she was like, it was fucking terrifying.

Everybody just suddenly had blood on them. And she was like, but he did it so that there would be an actual reaction. And I was was like nowadays I don't think that would fly anymore. It would not fly today. No it's not cool to do that. But at the time you know he thought he was you know he told somebody I'm getting these extras the story of a lifetime. Yeah yeah and they can never post about it on the internet. That's the sickest part of all. That's the most Quentin Tarantino bullshit I've ever heard. So that's my fun fact about Quentin. And I did see him several times

because he runs that theater in Los Feliz. Or is it in Los Feliz? No, it's not in Los Feliz. I forget where it is. I think it's Los Feliz. Or is it? It's somewhere else, I think. But he runs this Quentin Tarantino theater

where they only play his movies and he goes there all the time. And it's very sad. That's like if we owned like a radio station and they and he goes there all the time. And that's like if we owned like a radio station and they just played our podcast all the time. And we would just go listen to our own podcast. Like it's just exactly how it sounds folks, but he's kind of such a, he's just a character, you know?

Dare I ask, is your cousin Bernadette named after Bernie? Yeah. Fun fact. It does sound like something Barney would also do. So I mean, I don't know how he did it because it's not his kid, but it's his sister's kid. It sounds like they've got the same spirit. It sounds like that. I don't know that it was necessarily just that, but I'm sure that's part of it.

But also, she's the eldest cousin on my dad's side, and he is her godfather, so that is very possible that that's why, yeah. So I don't think I ever put that together really. Wow, really? The second anyone has any name resembling my father's name at all, I'm like, oh no. When I was a kid, my dad had a painting that she made on the wall, and I was always like, I wish you'd a painting that she made on the wall.

And I was always like, I wish you'd put a painting of mine on the wall. You know, if he said, well, you should have been named after me. Then it would have clicked a little faster. You know, it's so fucked up. He named me. So it's like, wow. I'm honestly surprised that either of our parents, either of our fathers did not name us after them. Shocked. Well, I mean, my brother got the middle name after himself, so. Well, okay.

Well, dodge the bullet, Christine. Well done. Is there a reason why you drink? Slash, what do you drink? I saw an interesting non-water next to you. Thank you so much for noticing. This is my special, and that's why I drink, textured cup for all my sensory girlies out there.

It's extremely satisfying. And I've broken one or two of them and because I drop everything I hold ever and I broke the lid of this. And then I ordered another one through our merch people. But then I broke that one. And then I was like, Christine, you need to get it together. So I had to start paying on our website to order it.

Oh, Christine. Cause I just don't want to make Jacqueline send us any more free shit just cause I keep breaking it. So I ordered, I bought this one. You know what, it's about time. I know I'm saying I can't keep breaking shit and then just like using our money to pay for it. So I was like, you know what, I mean I can,

but sometimes I choose not to. I would let you get away with it Christine I know you would and you did for so long and this has iced coffee in it. Nice What do you put in your iced coffee these days? So I got I get the lightly sweetened or not too sweet iced coffee Stoke brand from the grocery store And then I just put some whole milk in it Well, it's like a little sweet, but it's a nice afternoon treat. What are you drinking today, Em?

I'm doing the ADHD thing and I'm drinking more than one drink. Oh, me too. I didn't know we were on the same page. Oh, you have two fancy cups. I have, Em. On the table. Well, that you're drinking out of.

I have like six different beverage containers near me. How many of them are dirty and just lying on the table. Well, that you're drinking out of. I have like six different beverage containers near me. How many of them are? Drinking dirty and just lying on the floor. Four. What's six minus two? Four. Well, I'm drinking one from a local place and they're for Valentine's Day using heart shaped straws, which is lovely. Excuse. That's cute. I didn't know that was possible.

Yeah, hang on. Let me... Oh, so it's like the shape... Let me suckle on the straw for a second. That's fancy, I feel. Like, that feels like an extra expense on their part. That's what I'm saying. And at first I thought, like, I got a bent broken straw, and I was like, this is a fucking heart.

Like, it doesn't look like it on camera. It's a little divot, but I know I'm not crazy because there's also an indent on the straw. Like it's supposed to be there. So it is tiny, tiny heart shaped. Oh my God, that is a wild random accessory that they brought out. Wouldn't you first think, oh, I have a broken straw.

Yeah, I'd be like, give me a new one. They really hoped that I would investigate. Do you like that I said, I would be like, like me a new one. They really hoped that I would investigate I would be like give me a new one as if I would ever fucking do that They could give me a cup of mud and throw it on my feet and I'd be like Well, so this is one of the local shops out here where they know my order a little too well And it's a London fog, but I think I'm going to have to stop using them for a little bit because the drink I think is, you know, when we were all 13 discovered a Frappuccino and like we had too many and like,

it just became like a regular, like, oh, when you're going to the mall, obviously you're going to have a Frappuccino. Oh, when your mom drives. It was before the alternative milks became popular. So it was always like whole milk and you would be, I mean, I have a splash of it, right? But like, if you were drinking a whole milk for Apicino or whatever, like, oh, your stomach, you know? So, yeah, I think I need to take some time off

just because I'm realizing that, not realizing, I knew how sugary and intensely non-healthy this drink is, but I'm starting to just feel a little lousy if I drink them. And it's not like the the place is fault at all. I think I just need to not have so much like you take cream and sugar, you know, over consuming it. So I am letting myself have it on Fridays.

Yay. And it is Friday when we record. That's my first drink. My second one is water, but it's in my favorite cup these days. It's the Bratz dolls and it says dump him. Wait, I've never seen this before. I'm sorry. This is show and tell worthy. Let me see this.

Dump him Bratz dolls with halos and a hot pink lid. Em? Yeah. Where in the fuck? That is the most amazing piece of beverage. Take one guess where I got this fucking thing. Cause it is in fact Spencer's gifts. Okay, well that was in my top three. I was thinking Instagram, Spencer's gifts or Etsy.

Instagram and TikTok is a good idea, is a good guess. But no, this was, I got this from, it is the, God, everyone from Jersey is gonna scream at me. It's the one that's not the Mall of America, it's the Jersey version. I think it's called American Dream, but it's like just as big or near the size. Here, let me piss him off, I've never heard of it.

To be fair, I also had never heard of it and Mall of America is like, I think just a more famous version, but it is the exact same thing. Maybe the sizes are like a little off before I piss somebody out there off, but they're the same thing. It's just a massive fucking mall, one whole floor is an amusement park. Really? Wow. It was very fun. But Tanner and I, we took my, may she rest in peace, we took my Gammie's car out for a joy ride when I was last in New York and we ended up in Jersey

and drove to American Dream where my first stop was Spencer's Gifts and I bought this cup. So- RIP. Gammie. You know what? The car is still being put to good use Gams, you're good.

She would have wanted this. I would have bought her a matching Dom Pem Bratz cup and she would have been really confused but would have loved the spirit of it. So. She would have taken out her pocketbook and paid for it herself. If she knew I loved it, she would have been like,

I don't understand, you are 32, but okay, hey girl. You know? Ah. Anyway, so I'm drinking water and I'm drinking. Why do you drink? Because of your grandma died? I'm sorry. Sometimes my whole personality becomes an intrusive thought and it's so unpleasant. And I know it is and I'm sorry. Oh no, we're she's we're good. She's up there. She's chilling. I'll probably be hearing from her later and I do apologize. No, I've been waiting to hear from her for five years.

She hasn't shown up yet. You should have tried bullying her. You know, you're right. Maybe I'll try that later. I guess I'm just bullying you, honestly. You're bullying all of us, the whole, you know, dead and alive, the whole line. Yeah, it's about time you recognize that. Why do I drink? Um, hmm.

Hmm. Oh, um, I drink because I don't know what's happening, but apparently Allison is taking me somewhere tomorrow. It is some sort of planned date that requires a mild road trip. So I don't know where she's taking me. I feel like it's, I just can't stop thinking about the asylum that I share with that requires a mild road trip. So I don't know where she's taking me. I feel like it's, I just can't stop thinking about the asylum that I share with Quentin Tarantino. Maybe she's dropping you. With big Q, Q dog?

Yeah, maybe she's dropping you off here. She's like, I already filled out the paperwork. She's taking me somewhere and it's a drive and I don't know where we're going. She did tell me, she did start it with, we're gonna wake up early, but you can sleep in the car. And I, that does feel a little like, don't open your eyes. That feels like you're going somewhere

you don't wanna go. She said that there will be a pit stop for donuts, so that should help things. She's trying to sweeten the deal. I don't know about this. I don't know either. You're right, actually, as I'm saying all of it, it does sound like she's slowly gonna like

bribe me into an asylum. It feels like you're being lured somewhere with the promise of a nap and donuts, which I mean, to be fair, I've done that to you before and I've never put you in an asylum. I mean, not for lack of trying. It's because you're also there. Right. Exactly. I keep referring. You'd have to leave to bring me in. You know what I'm saying? Well, that's right. I keep referring you, like thinking it's sort of like, oh, you copy and paste my referral code. Like $20 off your next year.

Yeah, I would love to get like a month of free prescriptions or something, benzos or something, but they won't let me do that, because I'm in here. Well, I am, yeah, I don't know where she's taking me. I have a feeling she's taking me to, like the Newport area of California,

but we've been there before and she said we're going- I got excited. I was like, what? Do you think you're flying here early? Oh no, I didn't mean Newport, Kentucky, I'm sorry. You were like, okay, Christine Weirdo, but that's the name of my town. I wonder only because there's a donut place

you really like over there and it's way too far to go Unless you're driving that direction. You mentioned it on a recent episode I wonder if maybe like got her gears going maybe but then she also said oh we're going somewhere. You don't know about I don't know how her brain works yet. It's been like eight years, but I still don't totally get it Time yet. You haven't quite figured out the formula. I've known her like 12 years. I still don't totally get it. It's not time yet. You haven't quite figured out the formula. I've known her like 12 years. I still don't know. So we really, you would, if someone saw us communicating, you would think that we don't know each other all that well

because every now and then. I'm working on a documentary. She said something earlier this week. And I remember thinking like, I need you to lie about this. Cause whatever you're going to gonna say is gonna piss me off and Don't tell me the truth, please. Yeah, and so I asked just being like I wonder if you'd tell the truth and she did and I was like And all I said after that was lie like like I need you to get together and then I said something. Oh, oh

She pissed me right off recently And then I said something, oh, oh, she pissed me right off recently, where she. I love this, I'm sorry. I had been like stacking my snacks like a crazed person. I had them like in a row and I needed to eat them in a certain order, obviously. Understood. And she just grabbed right from the middle.

And first of all, I didn't even ask if she could have one and then just took it out of the middle of the row and then just ate it. And I went, and you know what I said? There was a pregnant pause. And then I went, you know, to be known is to be loved. And apparently you don't love me

because why would you do that? Wow, that's beautiful. Before it touched her lips, she put her right back in the row. She knew what she did. She knew what she did. Wow, you caught her and shamed her before it even touched her lips.

That's amazing. I had seconds to spare, so anyway. Honestly, maybe you do know her better. You both seem to know each other better. You just sometimes push the envelope. She seems to respond well to me forcing drama onto the relationship, which is exactly how I like it. I was gonna say, maybe this is the balance

you two just find works. She kinda likes getting yelled at, I think. That's how she's operating, it seems. Anyway, I don't know where she's taking me. I'm surprised. Right out of her hand. But so if I know her at all, I know the place she wants to take me, which means I know the direction we're driving. OK, but I really don't know where we're going if we haven't been there before.

So I'll keep you updated. I can't wait to find out. Okay, good to know. Now I drink because, well, you know, I wasn't even, well, first of all, I want to say quickly before I get emails or tweets, I'm sorry if I sounded glib or rude about or or jokey about mental health. Asylum. So I wasn't, you know, we said like asylum and I said, I tried to refer you. I don't know.

I felt like it comes from a place of yeah, of insanity. Yeah. Internal knowing and insanity. So don't worry. I wasn't trying to like mock the concept of. I have a feeling our listeners I just felt I need to clear there

Second thing I wasn't even gonna talk about this yet because I felt like I wasn't ready to talk about it yet But then this morning I pulled the Emperor card When I did it like my little tarot reading with Leona. Don't worry about it. And so I pulled the M for emperor and it said like, make a bold move. It was basically like make a bold move today or in your career, like take action. And I was like, you know what? I'm gonna tell you.

Why am I always at the mercy of your bold moves that are impulsive also? Oh my God. Because you like it. Part of you likes it and you know it. You know, to be loved is to be known to be known as to be loved. Yeah, I do like the drama So, um, okay, take it away. Okay, and it's not even about you really. I mean it I'm sure it'll become about you Okay, good

Let's get we all know all roads lead to the Empire. Okay, don't worry but for a moment, I will take the spotlight because I'm going to be streaming for a bit I think and I I really took some time to like Think on like how I wanted to What I wanted it to be Vibes wise and like content wise. I think what I'm gonna do because in the past I've done Neopets on stream and that was really fun, but it was just a little crazy

and I haven't had time to do that again. I think what I'm gonna start doing is a cozy puzzle hour type thing where I'm doing a puzzle or doing my, I have a Wild West Lego set, so maybe something like that, and then just chat with people, and play kind of like the lo-fi, you know, copyright free stuff or whatever.

Maybe even like my sister-in-law's band or something. I don't know. And just like play some music and chat. And I think I'm going to try doing that just for funsies on Twitch. But I did change my username because also as part of that that I was like, I want to change my username. So I'm now Stina Bean. Because as a kid my nickname was Stina and I've always missed that nickname, Stina. And so it's S-T-E-E-N-A-B-E-A-N, Stina Bean. So yeah so come follow me. Congratulations. Thank you.

The tarot told me to do it. Oh, okay. This was an idea I had like yesterday. What card is this? The Emperor? Yeah. It's like the kind of masculine side of taking action, you know. Nice.

So it symbolizes. I'm going to start streaming there. So come follow me. Nice. Congratulations. Thank you. The tarot told me to do it. Oh, okay. This was an idea I had like yesterday. What card is this? The Emperor? Yeah, it's like the kind of masculine side of taking action, you know.

Hmm. Nice. So it symbolizes I better pull the Emperor card right before I get that box of donuts. I'm about to really take advantage of that situation. Yeah, something old. So. Wow. OK. Well, congrats on your. What I'm trying to think, do you have a name for it yet? This little vibe? Oh, so that's the other thing, I was like,

maybe I call it like, the missing piece, but that sounds so dramatic, so then I was like, well, maybe just like puzzle, puzzle hour. I'm your missing piece. You know, it's me, who is it, it's Em. At the end we find out it was you all along. I don't know yet, and I was hoping people could help me kinda,

but I think the vibe is, the vibe of the aesthetic of it that I'm having an artist design like a nice little layout and all that overlay. And the keywords I use are like vintage, Halloweeny vintage, but not too cutesy. Nice. Victorian-esque kinda, you know, just cozy, but uncozy, I don't know.

It's a lot of words, okay? But it'll be cozy, it'll be like, I'm thinking of getting one of those fake fireplaces, you know? Nice. Yeah, so maybe when you visit me next week, I'll make you sit with me. Okay, I'll just nap in the corner.

Oh, that's actually fun. And we can have like a nap counter of like every time you roll over or something. That'd be beautiful. Every time I snore, you can just keep tabs on the whole thing, actually. That'd be like, everyone would be my village aura ring. That's exactly right. Or someone's... Oh my God, I love that, the village aura ring. Well, I'll count Someone's... oh my god I love that

village aura ring. I'll count your breaths. Someone will count your breaths. I'll just have a finger on one pole on your pulse just in case. Yeah. You know. Just check. Just put your finger under my nose. Make sure there's breath. It's all I really need. It will look like I'm not breathing but don't worry. The Alive meter will be green. I'll be back. For now. Um, well, that sounds very, very lovely, Kristy. I'm very excited for you. Thank you, Em.

This is me forcing relaxation into my own life. Like you can do a puzzle if you make it part of your work. Oh my god. It's fine. That's like Allison can't, um, she's very, very task oriented and she can only relax if it's on the to-do list It's very odd. Yeah, and I can only relax if there's a end product which sounds so fucked up, but whatever yeah, I every every now and then I'm like Girl, like just sit down and then she's like but I have to and I'm like you have to sit down

That's the rule now sit down and then all of a sudden you can actually sit down down a clock yeah so um I I could see how the two of you turned out to be your own little frenemies I suppose just by trying to accomplish something relaxing mm-hmm oh well um hmm what else there, Christine? Do we have anything we have to plug? I don't think so. Oh yes, oh yes. Oh yes. Oh yes.

When this comes out, oh, well, you'll just have missed our shows, nevermind. You'll have missed our Cluelesses and Addy shows. But we have a bunch of shows coming up and a lot of them are close to being sold out and some of them are not anywhere close to being sold out. So please go buy your tickets A lot of them are close to being sold out, and some of them are not anywhere close to being sold out. So please go buy your tickets,

because we really want to have full houses at our shows. It's so much fun to have a big crowd, especially with drinking games and all that fun stuff. So make sure you get your tickets. We have a lot of new cities we're going to this year, like kind of all over the place. So check our website, and that's waydrink.com slash live. And this is the last time we're doing, as far as we know,

this tour, this specific tour. So it's your last shot to see Poor Decisions. And it's a doozy and it's one of our favorites so far, if not our favorites. It's my favorite so far. Yeah, so come see it live. You just missed Cleveland and Cincy, but there's a lot more coming up.

So go check it out. I am excited to go back to my traveling ways for a second next week. I know, feels like it's been a little minute. And I am coming in early, but I don't know what I'll be doing in your own hometown. If you end up free, I think I'll just end up on your couch, but if you end up not free, then I'm just going to go be a tourist for a day.

And, uh. Yay, come play with me. Um, I want to take you to Skyline because I'm still mad that you ate Skyline and said you didn't like it, but you never ate it with me. And I'm like, that's not- I literally ate it with you. Where? Where? You had it ordered.

Uh, we ate it, did you eat it at my wedding maybe? Oh, so I've eaten it twice. When on earth have I ever not been near you? This will be the first time I'm ever doing anything in Cincinnati without you if I end up doing something on my own. No, you and Allison hung out before my wedding and stuff. I thought that's when you would have eaten it. No. No.

Do you think Allison's gonna eat chili with, uh, speed with chili on it? I mean, listen, I've probably made her do it before so yeah I've we've ordered it like we've so we've I've had out your wedding and we had it for like a dinner one time Call I don't recall. Okay. Well, I make you do it again then. Okay, great. I'll also super sandwich Hey, all right, you brought okay, you brought lunch meat to my wedding also. So I guess that does track. Yeah Yeah, you just bring some deli meat. I keep getting hungry every time you order this stupid skyline So I'm gonna have to get another sandwich

We're gonna make it work and I wouldn't even worry about it. Um, things are gonna change for you mighty soon Big things big things and that's a threat. I Can sense the tension for sure on this. Yeah, don't worry. I caught Blaze using my Orgain again. And I said, a game? I have been seeing that man of yours and the rippling muscles that are brand new on him.

Boking up. What is going on? Oh yeah, I know it's him stealing your Organe. This podcast is sponsored by Organe. Organe is famous for their organic plant protein powder. It packs 21 grams of complete protein with all nine essential amino acids. So I and Blaze know that we are getting the nutrition we need without the things we try to avoid like soy, artificial sweeteners, which are a no-go for me, big time, flavors, preservatives. Plus their products are handcrafted with high quality ingredients that makes it taste delicioso.

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with Ollie. Head to ollie.com slash drink tell them all about your dog and use code drink to get 60 off your first box of meals when you subscribe today. Plus they offer a clean bowl guarantee on the first box so if you're not completely satisfied you will get your money back. That's o-l-l-i-e dot com slash drink and enter code drink to get 60 off your first box Start your dog's new year off right with ollie Okay, so I have a story for you, uh straight out of england, uh, this is the story of the cage What That's creepy

Wasn't there a squirrel cage or am I making that up? Yes, that is in Pottawatomie County. Pottawatomie County something ill- Iowa. I was breathing in to say, I can't believe how smoothly you just said that. And then you said Pottawatomie. Pottawatomie economy. Pottawatomie County, Council Bluffs, Iowa. I don't know.

I can't believe you remember that. That's deeply insane that you remember all of those syllables. When it's something that crazy, you just remember. I don't remember a lot of information, but I do remember that. Pottawatomie County. That's a squirrel cage jail. Also, I think I- Okay, so this is different.

Yeah, this one's in England. They don't have a squirrel cage jail. Also, I don't even think they can say squirrel over there. Isn't that like one of the hardest words in the American dialect for them to say? Yeah. Oh, that's funny. I can see that. I don't know that. I've seen a lot of interviews of like English accent actors all saying the hardest way to fake an American accent is to say squirrel. That's so fucked up.

You know who would put that in all of his fucking movies? Q. Q don't. He'd splatter blood on them and then go, say squirrel. And they go, squirrel, squirrel. Just look out, theaters 2026. Just look out. The theater is 2026. So, the cage is in St. Osith. It's in Essex, oh fuck me. It's in Essex, England. I saw some websites say that the locals call it, instead of it being St. Osith, Jesus. It's called Toezy, Toosie. Apparently they nicknamed it. Whatever.

We're going with St. Osith because I know that that's actually how it's pronounced. St. Osith? St. Osith, yeah. Osith, okay. It does end up sounding a little like Saint Toes. St. Osith. Fun fact, before it was called that horror name, it was called

Chitch, which is at least easier to say. But here is the reason why I switched from Chitch to Saint Osseth. There is a legend about a noble woman in an abyss named Osseth, and her father was some royalty, And she ended up being the first abbess in the area of the Priory, which is its own big location here. Anyway, so Ozzeth is this noble woman in Abbess, and she lived at the Nunnery, Priory, whatever you want to call it, and the Vikings raided the town, and they demanded that everyone pray to their gods, but Ozeth refused. And as her punishment, she was beheaded.

Ozeth said no to Odin. Yeah. Do you like my fun joke? She said, no-din. Fuck, that's way better. So she was beheaded and this, the only reason. Sorry, that's so fucked up. It like didn't really hit me that that happened

until after I made my hilarious joke. And now I'm like, yikes. After you killed it, you forgot that they killed her. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, that's really effed up, sorry. But yeah, okay, so wow. That seems like a harsh punishment, but whatever. And I like how I also called her having a horrid name

when her name is Saint Osith. Wow. We're really not kill on it today. Well, they are. I know, what are you doing? I feel like we're on some weird. No, I feel like we're trying to like get in trouble. Are we pulling an Alison and like eating a cracker

out of the middle of the row? I guess so. Quick, say something that'll cancel you. Squirrel, squirrel, squirrel. Squirrel. Okay, so let's get that out of our system. The Vikings raided the town. They demanded everyone to pray to their gods, but Ozeth refused.

She was beheaded. And the only reason I even mention this, like the etymology to the name of the village is because there's a bit of a ghost story here where she was beheaded after all this. But then later on that day, ended up resurrecting without her head, picked up her head and carried it under her arm back to the nunnery. And she walked all the way to the nunnery with her head in her hands to warn the others of the Vikings raiding the town. And then she collapsed and died. But after that, the village was named Saint Osith in her honor for protecting the the good Christians of the town

from the wow. OK, so the story goes that she was, so she was still alive, or was she? I think she was a dead person, and the did- She just resurrected long enough. Okay, so that's why she's a saint, I'm assuming, because- Yes. Because Catholics love when people like resurrect, you know, they're all about it. They love, ooh, they eat it up.

Stuff, yeah. Totally. I do think, I saw some source say something along the lines of like, guardian angels carried her back to the nunnery or something. But the main thing is she carried her own head and then told them herself. So like the head in her hands is yapping away,

you know what I'm saying? Yeah, I guess you had to bring the, yeah. I mean, it makes sense if you have to make an announcement. Otherwise it's horrible. I guess you gotta bring your head. A horrible game of trades. Yeah, precisely, really makes sense if you have to make an announcement otherwise, it's a horrible game of trades Yeah, precisely really really gruesome and you know the nuns were gonna listen to you if the beheaded one is the one talking Yeah, I won't ever forget this moment. You automatically get the floor. I would say or the talking stick

You know like holding court for the rest of time. Yeah big time so anyway fun fact that's why the town is called St. Ozeth and during the Reformation 16th century, this is when fear started growing in England of witchcraft. Because of this, Parliament made witchcraft punishable by death, of course. They just have to go big or go home every time.

The first time was in the 1540s. Another time was in the 1560s. So there was a law, then it went away. Then they came up with law number two, both of them making witchcraft a capital punishment. But there was a difference between the two laws. So the original one in the 1540s, it was pretty law, ironically, lawless. It was that regardless of the witchcraft happening, capital punishment. The second time around the new law was,

witchcraft is only punishable by death if the witchcraft has been found to harm somebody. Okay, okay, oh wow. Which like, I love that we're growing. Oh wow, yeah, like leaps and bounds, baby. Fun fact, then there was a third law later, this doesn't get brought up, this is like 40, 50 years in the future of the story, but just wanted to say fun fact,

there is a third law that ends up in place where witchcraft becomes a capital punishment, again, for any reason. So like we ended up perverting. Oh so they went, they took one step forward two steps back. Got it. But this is a quote, I think this was from a Smithsonian article I read, and I thought was very interesting which is why I bring this up.

Although the law put in place had all forms of witchcraft being punishable by death, the conviction rate with witchcraft actually went down under this law because one of the other things this law did was outlaw the use of torture to get a confession Aha. Well, that's a big difference. So maybe we are a couple steps ahead interesting. Yes, so We are operating on law 2 the middle one. that is only if you're harming somebody. And at this time the legal procedure for laws against witchcraft involves being, the accused at least, being examined by the justice of the peace.

Which is a man, always. Always a man. So they were also like elder members of the community, of course, so they're like, I don't know, from a different generation, let's just put it that way. They're old men who are gonna look at naked women to determine if they should live or not. And if they think you're ugly and maybe unbangable, all of a sudden you're a witch.

I think that's how this goes. Or either way. I think probably the other way happened too. Yeah, I think if they feel any sense of rejection, insecurity, dislike, disgust, any of those, insert a word. I think it's just sort of a lose-lose, you know? Yeah, I think unless you are their wife and they like you,

you're probably gonna be accused of a witch, of witchcraft. And on top of it, these like weren't even people with legal expertise. Of course, they were just like the powerful people in town. So a lot of time it was the local property owner, the one who owned the most property. He just got to also be the justice of the peace. Um, if the justice deemed the accused a potential witch, which happened a little too often, the accused would then be arraigned, they could enter a plea, and very rarely would they ever plead innocent.

I am saying things to you that you and our listeners all know, but just to give you a taste of how this is going to go. Very rarely the accused would ever actually plead innocent of witchcraft. They would plead guilty because they were warned that if they sought forgiveness instead of denying it even longer there are chances of An empathetic or sympathetic jury So they're saying like take the plea bar like take the plea take the L say you did it and it'll be less painful than Going through the whole process of a jury who will definitely find you guilty.

You get it. Threat, okay. But at least you looked like you sought out forgiveness and you were admitting, which is the first part of the problem, is like, accept who you are, girl. Give me the serenity of accepting who I am, girl. Yes. So until their actual trial, or if they were found guilty and awaiting a death sentence,

or their death row moment, the accused would end up in their local jail. And this jail in this village happened to be the St. Osas Cage, literally called the Cage. The Cage! The Cage was around for at least 325 years. I forget. Reminder to all the Americans. We are in a different location and things are that old. I know I say it every time, and I'm sure everyone not in the U.S. is bored of that.

But I I it's more for me. I have to remind myself every time. Jim Harrell talks about it all the time too. He's like, here, a house that's a hundred years old is considered old and like in other places, that's a new build. I know, well, like my house is like, just had its 75th birthday, so mad I didn't know in time or we would have thrown a party for her.

But 75 years old, I'm like, this is the oldest house I'll ever live in. And it's like- Oh my God, no way, come on. That's lame. It just doesn't even occur to me. I would just be like- Hey, you wanna celebrate my house's 150th?

Cause that's coming up in a couple of years. More than anything. Really? I feel like you're the only other person who will care to do that with me. So- I'm telling you now, and I'm not saying this for the audience i'm saying

this for you to really sit on if i say yes to this i'm gonna go balls to the wall and i need you to be matching the energy with me on this because it's gonna be nutty i'm fucking so in okay perfect i can't wait i already have i don't even i literally I literally instantaneously have five ideas for you. I'm the dog that's already in the sidecar and you're like, wait, where did the dog go? I'm in the sidecar. Perfect. Okay. You get it. We will be discussing later. So the cage, the place where it was just a holding cell

essentially mid trial. Like a 400 year old holding cell. A 400 year old cage. We're just going to keep you in here with this beheaded, named after this beheaded woman. And like this is again just for us, but I don't really think I realize how far away 325 years was, but this thing closed in only 1908, and the 1900s this thing closed and it has been open since at least the 1580s. Oh my lord. Okay.

So think of how many prisoners have been in there. Think of how many deaths, how many illnesses. That's like a half a millennia. Like that's so many fucking years. So many years and at different times this also didn't just hold men but women and children. For there there was huge chunks of time where it was mainly just like a drunk tank and for petty crime, but there was certainly some worse activity.

And you know they're not sanitizing that thing either, just saying for like health hazards. How would you sanitize something in the 1580s? Yeah, right. You probably just don't cough on it. Put manure all over it and be like, now it's. Um, yeah, so anyway, uh of the people who Spent time there and this is just one of many she is probably the most famous case to come out of this jail but um

I mean still add 300 plus years of more people The most famous local case of someone staying at the cage was an alleged witch and her name was Ursula Kemp. Which Ursula has never sounded to me like a name that doesn't belong to a villain. I always, maybe that's how they thought that she was a witch from day one. They're like, Ursula?

Yeah, the day she was born. Her mom looked at her and was like, that's an Ursula if I ever saw one. Okay, question. Have you ever known an Ursula in real life? No, only hand drawn or Phoebe Buffay's evil sister. Only hand, hand what? Hand drawn.

What's that mean? A cartoon. Oh, oh, oh, oh. Why did you say hand drawn? Because it was drawn by hand. Oh. Okay. Have you ever met a Nursilla? Yeah. And?

She was so evil. She was... It stands true. This old ass German lady. I feel I mean, looking back, like it's really sad because we were kids and I didn't realize like the nuance of it. But she was really a mean lady to us and I was a small child. So I feel like I don't give her that much leeway. But ultimately, she ended up with Alzheimer's and she was in Maryland like where where we would visit sometimes and she would do like puzzles with us and stuff. And I just remember her like we'd play Scattergories and stuff. She would like call me stupid. She was so mean.

And this was like well before she ever. Is Ursula the beginning of your stupid complex? I'm sure it's right there in the middle. I know if we've figured it out, you know? Well, I think, you know what, it's a good shout, especially because my dad was there and thought it was very funny. So I think like it at least didn't help my stupid complex, you know, or my inferiority complex. So I think, yeah, Ursula, the one I knew, and she was like one of those

scary German ladies where you're like, I don't even want to look you in the eye. Yes. And so I knew one real life, not hand drawn Ursula. I don't know what I thought you meant. I'm sorry. I thought you meant like you, someone drew, it doesn't matter. Um, I knew one animated one hand-drawn one and one very evil lady who I think was just sad but treated me not nicely. There's just some names that have that energy to it but then also it's like Chicken or the Egg. Like did it ever have that energy or is it just that I've seen enough people with that name? And I'm sure there's plenty of like people named Ursula who are just like nice, fine, lovely. I'm sure. Haven't met you yet.

If you are a nice Ursula, come on down. I'll let you know how I feel about you. Can you change our mind? Because I really don't want my only memory to be of me not understanding what hand drawn means and of that old lady who didn't let me do the puzzle. It's like Chelsea's and Kelsey's. I believe there are good, there is good out there.

I believe that. Have not seen it with my own eyes just yet. But- That's a beautiful faith that you have though. I'm hoping someone will prove me wrong. And if your name happens to be Chelsea or Kelsey and your middle name's Ursula, that's a double whammy in my book.

So- Wow. Whenever you're ready. Chelsea Ursula. Yeah. I think Ursula is more of a family name these days, it seems. Anyway, so the most famous case to come out of this prison called the Cage is this alleged witch named Ursula Kemp. I will say, I think this Ursula probably was like a fine fucking person, but immediately

someone heard her name and had bias and went, no, you're a witch. You're a witch. So Ursula was a midwife, which of course, a lot of them were targets for this. She was also a wet nurse, which also is often one of the reasons that people end up being witches. And she was an herbal medical practitioner. So she was con-

So the name didn't even matter. Triple correct. Let's be honest. Oh, and PS, her name was Ursula. Yeah, right. That just was an afterthought, honestly. So this is again in the 1580s. To my knowledge, this is like the beginning of the cage's time.

I don't know if the cage existed before the 1580s. So maybe this was like a brand new building and they were just throwing everyone in there. But they were like, Ursula, look, you get the finest cage. You're one of the first. The most modern day cage you could ever find in the 1500s. Well, usually I am pretty neutral on this name,

but in this story, we hate the name Grace. Hate it. Oh, I actually like that name Yeah, but okay. I can get on board with the dislike if it's for the story So Ursula gets into a few spats with her neighbor Grace in the 1580s Grace I think is Threat zero here. I think she's the beginning of all of our problems because is threat zero here. I think she's the beginning of all of our problems because first Grace goes to Ursula, who was a healer, to heal her when she was sick.

Grace is like, I'm not feeling right, can you help me out? Then at some point, although Ursula has healed her and allegedly made Grace feel better, apparently Ursula and Grace argue about the payment and Grace is like, I'm not paying this and Ursula gets mad. Now at the same time a few days later, Grace's symptoms come back. Okay. Almost as if Ursula did this because Grace wouldn't pay. Like reverse the healing sort of. After that, Grace also got into another spat with Ursula because although she had used Ursula in the past as a midwife for one of her children, Grace's new baby was going to be taken care of

by another midwife. It was probably because they were already in this initial spat and she was like this would be really awkward while I'm giving birth and someone is taking care of me. Yeah like I'm pissed at her. Like we're mad. I'm gonna find a new midwife for this child. Yeah. But I think Ursula probably saw this as like I don't know why you couldn't just pay your fucking bill and now I'm losing additional work because you now don't want me in the room with you to take care of your baby. And it's probably like making a I mean it can't be good for your reputation if it's like you're losing client customers Especially when there's like ten people in this village. It's like how many babies are coming? How many would what midwives that's if competition to midwives?

I know that would be extra insulting if like she had to call out into another time for a midwife to come in That's a health midwife and you're like seriously. I'm right down the street And you know that yeah, you know that looks bad when another midwife is coming into town because you can't do your job allegedly. So, yeah, that's got to hurt. So Ursula and Grace, Ursula and Grace are having this huge public falling out because again, there's like 10 people. So if everyone's sitting in the same park in this town, probably everyone knows what's going on. And later on, after this baby has either been born or is being taken care of by this separate wet nurse,

the baby dies. Oh, fuck. Oh no. And it was something along the lines of like, fell out of her crib. Like the classic rockabye baby situation. Oh Jesus. She ends up falling out while sleeping and then injuries later led to her death.

So between Grace's initial fight with Ursula and then her symptoms coming back and then her daughter dying after the second public spat, rumors quickly spread of Ursula being responsible for both situations, allegedly putting a curse on the family for disrespecting her so many times. And soon the whole town was hearing that Ursula had the ability to not only make somebody sick, but harm slash kill them. Mm hmm. And also on top of that, they were like, because Grace's symptoms came back, they're like,, oh and on top of like could physically hurt you She could also make your symptoms come back. So she has more work and makes more money off of you

So now she's jeez that's fucked up. Okay, I hadn't even thought of it like that. So after this Ursula was A public enemy I suppose and Although grace had been the only person at this point who had claimed any of this about Ursula, then more rumors started kicking up and more people started saying, well, I have a story about Ursula harming me. A different neighbor named Alice claimed

that Ursula killed her daughter because Alice one time didn't let Ursula borrow something. And then Ursula was later seen outside of that house muttering to herself. Probably being like, why the fuck won't you just give me this fucking thing? I just need the broom for a minute. Jesus. Funny you say that. I wasn't able to get into specifics.

It was literally cleaning supplies. I knew it. So it's like, yeah, just like give me the fucking broom. But I like how you say broom because double, yeah, just like, give me the fucking broom. Like, okay. But I like how you say broom because double entendre with like her being a witch. I see. Ding ding.

Very nice. Didn't do it on purpose. Well, people see her muttering to herself and soon after this, Alice's daughter has this weird swollen stomach. Nobody has a reason for it. And she ends up passing away from some sort of infection. Oh, gosh. So everyone associates Ursula's muttering to herself

with maybe hexing the child for being disrespected. Right. Then another neighbor said that she was walking past Ursula's house with her baby. Okay. And the baby would just scream every time they walked past Ursula's house, her baby. And the baby would just scream every time they walked past Ursula's house, which was obviously an omen.

It's like maybe your baby just, I don't know, hates the look of the house. Maybe like it's just- And maybe you are just squeezing the baby tighter every time you walk past because you're nervous and the baby is like, why are you scared? No, I'm scared. And also maybe because babies can just sense shit.

Maybe they could sense your stress, you know? Exactly. Yeah. I like that I went with like like this is like a gay little interior designer baby I know I know as much as I love that theory and hope that's correct I just wanted for the for the sake of you know covering all our bases I'd throw the more mundane boring. Thank you. No. Yeah. See that's why we balance each other out I will handle the less likely situations, but the more fun scenarios. You know me. Right down to earth, very grounded, very fact-based. You're a no-business, no-nonsense kind of girl. That's exactly what they say.

So on top of all this, she's now been accused by three neighbors. Some sources say two. I think they mix two of them up because there's an Annie and an Alice and I think they get kind of squished together. Okay. And maybe that's the case, I don't know. But at least two, maybe three neighbors have said something about Ursula. And then on top of that, Ursula's own fucking brother, which what is the sibling rivalry there? Fuck, dude. Horrible. Like, you know, when you go to like a Thanksgiving dinner and you have to deal with your parents? Yeah. Like, and you just know they're gonna say something? Yeah, I've heard of that.

Like what is going on at the Christmas dinner table that they hate each other so fucking much? He's like, I'm gonna accuse you of witchcraft bitch. I mean listen siblings have, I know plenty of people who would immediately throw their sibling under the bus like this. I do know that Zandy would call you a witch to the elders for sure. I mean, honestly, probably not

because he knows I would take him down with me. So I feel like that's a dangerous balance we strike. But like, especially older generations where maybe there wasn't as much like, they didn't foster as much love among siblings necessarily or maybe there wasn't enough therapy out there. I don't know, but I've definitely known siblings who would behave this way. Out of spite. Which is so fucking bold. This is half the thing I don't understand about any witch trial.

If you really thought someone could hex and kill you, why on earth are you playing with that fire? Like, I've never understood it. I've never gotten it. It doesn't make sense, but I think it's that like mentality, that mom mentality of like fear of like, oh shit, we can't let this person get out of control. We've got to like get them. So I'll get you before you get me killed before they like cause more damage

or before they turn and look my way and kill my baby. I feel like it becomes this almost like, they're so dangerous that the town has to unite and put them out of the equation. I don't know, that's my only guess, because you're right, I would not wanna be pointing fingers at somebody if I really thought, oh, they might kill my baby. I would be kissing ass.

This should have been like- But I guess if I already believed they killed my baby. I'd probably be in a fucking righteous fury. Like that's true. I do. But there is at least one man out there who and even I mean, not only one man, but there's a lot of women who under duress said names that like they knew were innocent. Like there's a there was a lot of well, I guess that part doesn't count.

I'm thinking more like the people who are truly accusing. Who believe it. I feel like at least some of them were like this brother who's like, I'm just gonna say you're a witch because I'm pissed at you. Oh, for sure. I mean, I imagine that it's like an easy thing to be like, I don't know if she's a witch or not,

but I like fucking hate her. So I'm fine with it. You know, who knows? Maybe they actually just misheard him calling her a bitch. A bitch. you know? A bitch. So anyway.

She really is a bitch. It's like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I mean, she's been plenty nice to me, but her name is Ursula, so I'm just assuming where things are gonna go, you know? Yeah, it's not gonna apply for me. That's probably something you said. Anyway, on top of all this, Ursula's own brother

accuses her of quote, bewitching his wife who gasped and died. It sounds like a limerick. Oh, shit So his he's now saying that like not just oh they have sibling rivalry like she killed my wife. So now she's like the he's the fourth person I think saying that she might actually believe that and if he's maybe to go against your own sibling and say like I can't believe you would do this to my wife. I don't know. I almost hope so because like, otherwise like, at least there's a reason why you're this evil.

I know, it's like almost, I can't tell if it's, I mean, it's all bad. It's all bad. For this case, the case of Ursula, the justice of the peace was this guy named Brian Darcy. Of course, a Brian. He is a powerful landowner, very wealthy in this area, and he is a man.

And apparently, one source told me that he had his own like villain origin story where his dad was quote, bewitched to death by another town witch. And this caused his hatred for quote, sorcerers, wizards, witches, and wise women. Ah, not the wise women not a wise woman please god keep them dumb first of all I've never heard of such a thing second of all not to be afraid of don't worry

so uh fun fact which is I don't know you tell me if this is incredibly convenient or not but so this guy Brian Brian, not only is he the justice of the piece, but he's a vengeful justice of the piece who fucking hates witches because they like killed his own dad, allegedly. He is friends and works very closely with Grace, the original accuser. Oh no, oh no, oh no.

So all Grace had to do was call up Brian and just go, I don't like this fucking girl. You ever heard of her? I don't like her. I think she's a witch. I think she's a witch. And then Brian went, well, that can't fucking fly. Say no more. Certainly.

So after all their beef, she called up B Rye and complained about Ursula, maybe mentioned that she was a witch, I don't know, maybe said it under her breath. And so now she's been arrested by Brian, she is sent to the cage, she is being arraigned and during her arraignment, that's when you make the plea, right? Yeah. Okay. So during this time, is this when people testify also?

So the arraignment, I feel like is when you're setting up. I don't want to give false information. Well, I feel like I, my thought is that it's when you're just going in for the plea and then the actual trial is when people are testified. Right? Right, right, right. It's sort of like where you're, it's like where you read your charges, basically. Right. Okay, that's what I thought. Like you're brought in officially to be told like this is what the trial will be,

these are your charges, do you plead, yeah. Yes, okay, cool, so we're on the same page. So she was being kept at the cage until arraignment. During arraignment, Brian did the thing I mentioned earlier where he was like look It's gonna go a lot easier for you if you just Plead guilty just say yes now. Yeah, I think originally she did plead innocent Because then she ends up awaiting trial and while she's awaiting trial

She ends up having another conversation with Brian about like, hey, you really just need to be, you know, during her trial, I guess they had a bunch of people come in and testify. One day it was her own son, her own eight year old son. They used her kid against her. Eight years old. And I don't know if he had a father or siblings or family. I don't know if he had a father or siblings or family I don't know if he like was scared because he's now by himself and I don't know but they Certainly pressured this eight-year-old kid enough and they probably said like say all these things and you can see your mommy again Like exactly that'll keep her safe, you know So he ended up telling

The court that Ursula was in fact a witch, number one. Number two, she controlled multiple familiars. Two are cats, one was a toad and one was a lamb. This poor baby. These four familiars were Ursula's little henchmen to do evil work and she kept them alive by feeding them beer and cake and she would let the animals suckle blood from her body. Okay. This poor kid. I mean, for God's sake. And to be the mom and see your baby come in

and know that, like, they fucking forced him to do this, this is, like, so twisted. And you have to look at him knowing he didn't... He doesn't even know what he's doing is going to kill you. And you're like, you just want him to feel okay and safe, even though, like, he's basically spelling your death sentence. Oh, this is so dark, dude. So while, I guess, waiting for other people to testify,

she's hanging out in the cage. Brian goes to her and says, look, I'm telling you, this can all stop if you just plead guilty and will be really sympathetic, will be super lenient. Just tell us the truth. And so she ends up obliging. She confesses to having familiars,

sending them out to kill her sister-in-law, kill Grace's daughter, make people sick. And then on top of that, she names other women in the village who were witches to try to save herself, which was very common. Yeah. At the end of this, Ursula and 13 other people were tried for witchcraft in total during this case. Holy shit. Only two of them, Ursula and then this woman Elizabeth, were sentenced to hang.

And before her death, she was again held at the cage. So, when she was hanged, same with Elizabeth, when they were hanged, we don't know where exactly they were buried because they weren't given a proper grave and it would have been on unconsecrated ground. But we know that they were buried in an area nearby. We just know it was in the village. They are buried probably near the cemetery, but just off. Like in a discarded way. So now let's time travel to 1921.

Yes, in 1921 there's this guy named Charles. Charles lived in the area and he was digging around in his garden and he finds two skeletons on his property. Oh Charles he did little chuckie boy he just wanted to big chas that's what I call him. Big chas just wanted to put in some little petunias. Petunias yes of course and what do you know he find two. What do you know he can't even put a petunia. Intact skeletons. Yeah that sounds just like his luck, huh? Let me actually, I didn't prepare, so please hold. This is so annoying. Can I pee real fast? Yeah.

Please stand by. We have to step away. And scene, Jack. So the skeletons, not only were they lying near each other, they were both found with iron nails hammered into their joints. Oh Their joints which apparently was a way back in the day to keep witches from reanimating And coming back from the great. Hey, guess what? It fucking worked, right? So like sure did with fucking like that flawless

They stayed in place. Flawless. They stayed put. So Charles believed that these were the skeletons of Ursula and Elizabeth, because since they had these nails in them and everything, and that was what you did for witches, these are two mysterious bodies. He lives in a very small village where this is like a significant story in the town.

Imagine just like stumbling upon like a famed legend from your town. Local celebrities, yeah. Right? Like I'd be like, the fact that Charles was like, oh, I know who that is. So. While they're in my backyard, that's where they've been this whole time. So because he knew that they were local celebrities,

people had always wondered where they were buried, knew the story of Ursula. He decided to put fencing around it, keep them unburied, and then charge people to view the bodies. Here are two video, or two pictures for you. I'll send them to you. Holy shit, Chuck was,

I thought Chuck was much more gentlemanly than he ends up being. No, he had- He ends up being kind of a schmuck, huh? He had his own ways. Whoa, oh, oh no, no, no, no, no, no. So there's one of the bodies and then there's people viewing it.

Apparently they were only charged six pence, a six pence. Which apparently, I tried to do the math, apparently it's like two fucking dollars. Like it wasn't even really a lot of money. This really upsetting and like just so people know I mean we'll put them up on social media but it literally is a picture of a human skeleton laying in you know on the ground and then it says Skeleton of which found at st. Osith is it Osith you said? St. Os and it's, okay, so he's

just like making a tourist trap out of and calling them witches. I mean, yeah. Yeah. And yeah, so it cost us six pence. I hope I'm saying that right. English people, I've never had to use six pence in my entire life as a word. But I looked up the conversion rate. One six pence is worth two and a half cents USD. So in my mind, sixpence is triple, which makes like eight cents. Wait, wouldn't it be the opposite? Oh wait, yeah, hold on.

No, you're right. It ends up being like eight cents, like pennies. Yeah, you're right, you're right. Literal pennies. But then, and then I just, that was 1921 money. So I just brought it up and it's like $2 now. Oh, so it's $2 today. Yeah, that's nothing.

So you're saying like literally the value of two bucks is what they were paying. Okay. Nothing is $2 anymore. What are we, what are we? Like a bag of candy, maybe. Yeah. So, and like you said, that like,

or I don't know if you said this or not, but I feel like this is something that would come up in your brain anyway. I'm just assuming because you're so smart Um keep in mind that this was a fucking guess like we don't even know that these were ursal and elizabeth They were just they could just be random Random people and like their skeletons were now exhumed and they're just put on display for literally the price of like raisinets Yeah, good point. Not at the movie theater though, price of like raisinets. Yeah, good point. Not at the movie theater though.

Like maybe five raisinets. My house costs the same as raisinets from the movie theater. That's right. That's a better analogy. No, I'm like shocked because now I'm thinking, well, I didn't know Charles was such a fucking schmuck. I'm wondering now like- Chuck the schmuck. Chuck the schmuck. I knew he was a chuck all along. Chuckie the schmuck. Chuck the Schmuck. I knew he was a chuck all along.

Chuckie the Schmucky. I didn't know, I wonder now if he, if there's any chance he just like planted these? Cause I'm looking at that one picture, I don't know it looks pretty- It is perfectly preserved, isn't it? Pretty damn like, uh, prop-like, but I mean, I guess... I guess in the 20s they might have had a toy skeleton out yet. Well, not a toy, but I mean, you could even get one from... You could acquire a skeleton back then.

I don't know. He did dig them out of his garden. They were in his garden, okay. The bodies have... Well, like I said earlier, these could just be anyone. The bodies could have also just been other women killed for witchcraft, which I guess is a cool story, but it's not the Ursula story. So even if he somehow knew that these are female skeletons and they were buried there instead of on consecrated ground

because they were witches, we don't know that it was... I mean, Ursula and Elizabeth were the only ones who died of witchcraft during that trial, but there was like, I think, 13 women who died throughout. Oh, wow. Okay. So it really could be somebody else. Yeah, it was 13 or like 10 women.

It was like in the double digits of women who died in this time period for witchcraft, either in this village or the village nearby. So there's a chance it was just a random other woman or a fucking man, it could be anyone. But maybe he knew, because he knew the Ursula story, he was like, well, this aligns with it and it will give me the most money, all sixpence. All sixpence.

So now I think if this source is right, it said this was around until 1932, which is like 11 years later. Oh my Lord. So he's just had this like fucking jacked up carnival in his backyard this time for over a decade. That's what it sounds like rigged up carnival. I feel like other stories suggested it was a shorter time,

but the source I'm rocking with is 1932. And Charles is still showing off these bodies. And then one day his house mysteriously burns to the ground and everyone assumes, oh, they may be dead, but they can still curse people who wrong them. This is the first time I'm going to say they sure can. I don't think that is necessarily going to happen. But if it is, I mean, you're already dead.

It's not like if I accuse you of a witch now, like what's gonna happen? You know what I'm saying? It's like, might as well learn some witchcraft on the other side, you know? So everyone was worried that this curse was actually very real and they're like, you know what? Let's actually rebury the bones on the property.

Let's stop paying and eating popcorn over top of them. It took us over a decade, but maybe we should stop throwing trash at them and dropping things on them by accident. Gross. You know there's like a drunk asshole who like peed on one of them or something. Yeah, yes, you know.

Like something happened. Because people are fucking jackasses. I mean, they're literally like selling their sisters to the prison system and calling them, which is someone peed on her, someone dropped snacks on her, someone dropped snacks on her, someone threw their ticket on her. And that's not even counting what people probably said.

It just seems bad all around. And not to say I'm like holier than thou, I probably would have paid six pence back in the day because what the hell else am I gonna be doing with my time? So I'm not saying like- Truly, what was going on in the 20s? Nothing. It's crazy back then.

In a small little village? Yeah, with like the Veliska Axe murder too. Like, yeah, I understand that was like normal back then, quote unquote. Even today, I literally go to the Lizzie Borden house because I'm intrigued by the creeps of it all. We go to haunted houses. And museums and see... Yeah, so I mean, I do understand it from that perspective, but this guy charging people and then like not even having the real info,

it just starts to get so slimy. And it's random bodies. So fast, yeah. Also this fire that mysteriously burned his house to the ground, if this was going on for 11 years, it seems like they were fine with it for over a decade. You know what I mean? Yeah.

So why are people associating this with witchcraft? Also Charles's grandson is the real homie because he pretty much says out loud with his full chest in a news article that his grandpa just drunkenly knocked over an oil lamp and set the house on fire. Oh my fucking God. 30 years later,

the skeletons have been buried for 30 years again. But they were re-dug up during a construction project on the property. Can I ask, were they, but they were reburied in the same spot? Same spot. Okay, okay. They were re dug up the during a new construction project where they had to break ground again. And the skeleton, I don't know about both of them, but at least the one that everyone thought was Ursula, which how would you know the difference?

We're just picking skeletons at this point. Those are just two women, right? Like one wasn't a child or something, right? No, they were just the same size and we're assuming that they're witches and they're these specific witches and now only one of them is maybe Ursula. Right, okay. So the one deemed Ursula, I guess is how I'll say it, was then taken out of the ground and to not be harmed any longer or damaged or fucked with.

The skeleton was then sold to a witchcraft museum in England, but then it was resold to a quote artist. It's giving entrepreneur vibes because really, are you doing really what he was amongst everything else? He was a human remains collector. Oh dear. And when... So anyway, he liked to collect dead bodies.

Apparently Ursula was not the first. I'm gonna say a hesitant, all right, I guess. It's all right, rock on girl, I guess, as long as you don't hurt them. So he had the body until he ended up dying. So for years and years and years, he had Ursula, quote, on his- That was the ultimate addition to his collection.

I guess so. His own, no, his own body when he died. Oh, now that's good. See, now that's good. He finally completed the collection. Yeah, full circle that's good. See, that's good. He finally completed the collection. Yeah, full circle indeed. Yeah. Well, so when he died, the skeleton was finally returned to St. Osith to be reburied in a different location.

I think that's probably for the best, everybody. Fun fact, though. Because we don't have this person's consent, you know, all that nonsense. Fun fact, on the body's way back to St. Osseth, an archaeologist was like, let me just check on these bones real quick before we bury them again and determined they did not belong to Ursula because they were it was a male skeleton the entire time.

No, are you serious? And for all we know, one thing that you mentioned, it was rumored that maybe it was just his own fucking family or something and he just- Oh my God, people used to bury their family in the backyard, that is a normal thing. If not his, somebody else's maybe family members or something. We have bodies buried on my dad's property.

Yes. It's just like some people- A thumbs up comes through, yep. But there's like, sometimes people just have like family plots on property. No, it's actually very, it's pretty clotted. But like how did not a single person who visited this thing or hear about this ever think,

oh, couldn't this just be like the family plot from the people before you? Well, I mean, maybe they did. Maybe it was like contentious, but like no one could prove it because it was on his property. I don't know. I also wonder like when you said, oh, for all we know, it's a male skeleton. I was like, oh, well, and that's silly. Like somebody would have noticed if it was a male skeleton by now.

I know. I'm like, wait a minute. It was the whole time. I know it's like that obvious, but I'm sure I know there are some pretty significant differences usually. Like in today's world, I feel like most people at least know to check the hip size to see if it could hold a fetus in there. If there's like womb room, you know, room for the womb. Yeah. Maybe they just didn't think about that in the 20s. I don't know. I guess. I guess. Who knows?

I mean, I don't know. I probably wouldn't know the difference, but I assume somebody did. So people then I think he tried to double down and him or his supporters were like, well, they were bones of a different witch, just a male witch. And it's like, okay, shut up. Wait, now you're pushing it. Really pushing it. Everyone's like, end it. The joke is over. The jig is up. The jig. Wait, which one is it really? Because I never know.

So if I were to say it right now, I would say, all right, everyone, the gig is up. Wait, which one is it really? Because I never know. So if I were to say it right now, I would say. All right, everyone, the jig is up. Is that right? I don't know anymore. You fucked me up. See, in my in my mind, I have always said, OK, the jig is the gig is up. The jig is up. It is the jig is up. I think so.

But the gig also makes sense. Thank you. See, now you're now I'm so. But the gig also makes sense. Thank you! See, now you're- now I'm winning! I'll never let you have- I'll never let you have Jif, I'll tell you that. Alright, alright, fine. I'll take this one for now. Is that the little Giovanni? It is.

He's really a pain in my ass, but I love my baby. Oh, the monkeys! Oh, the babies! Oh, I get to see him next week. I'll see that. Oh, hey, wait. I didn't even need to direct you on that one. Because I actually get to kiss him.

Wake up. Okay, so where are we? Oh yeah, so he's saying it's still a witch, whatever. Researchers also said not only is the skeleton male, first of all, why is no one on the case for this other missing fucking skeleton I don't know because there were originally two remembered But the researcher said not only was the skeleton male but the iron spikes in the joints were quote recent additions Yep, designed to enhance the witch story. Yep. Yep. Yep. So it. Knew this fucker was schmucky as hell.

Chaz, big Chad, we can tell that you faked this. And again. You are a piece of work. The grandson, the homie, he also confirmed this and was like, yeah, he does crazy things. Well, okay. Like set the house on fire. Set the house on fire and put like iron nails into dead bodies arms.

That's grandpa. Grandpa, his uncle's skeleton or wherever the hell you thought that. To go to your point earlier, what do you do in a village in the 1920s with no- Seriously. Just gotta kill some time. If you're eccentric, like Chuck obviously was, maybe you gotta bend your morality a little bit. Well, that is a very long tangent that I guess is shared

and that I had to share in this story. The topic of the cage itself is just a jail that housed Ursula Kemp and several other people over centuries of time. But she is the most famous witch to come out of this town. She was also in this prison, this holding area that is also incredibly haunted. All that to say that the cage was a jail that held on top of many other people, 1500s witches.

It remained a jail until 1908. Oh my God. And then in the 1970s, it was renovated into a house. And it even kept the alley in the back where prisoners, like where dead bodies would get like taken out to the ambulance. A selling point? Like they even kept the original alley to the house.

It's so wild. It's literally called Coffin Alley because that's where all of the jailers literally is the selling point. Yeah, I mean it must be to someone. It even has a plaque. Let me see. Let me actually send this to you also. What's it called? The cage plaque. So that is the plaque on the house today and the plaque says, the cage medieval prison, St. Odyth resident Ursula Kemp was imprisoned here before being hanged as a witch in 1582. And it was last used in 1908. So that plaque is still on the building to this day,

it is still called the cage. And so it's just a house. It's just a house. Immediately, the house was rumored in town to be haunted. And several people moved in, several people moved out. They claimed that books and other items would fly off the shelves. People broke their leases incredibly early. Some people only made it a few weeks or months there. Oh my gosh. And one tenant even ended up dying by suicide in the early 2000s.

And the story goes that he was hearing something in the house and it drove him to suicide, which that's neither here nor there, but it is a fact of the case. And that obviously, either way, maybe that was a rumor that was spread. Maybe it was actually part of maybe a mental health situation he was dealing with. Maybe it was the paranormal. I don't fucking know.

But either way, it adds to how... It's associated with the energy within. Yeah, it adds to how dark this place is. Nine months after this man died in the house, it is now the year 2005. Okay. And the house sat empty for those nine months after he passed. And now 30 year old Vanessa moves back home

to her hometown of St. Osith and is looking for a house. Oh, girl. And Vanessa stumbled upon the cage. She was fascinated by it. She remembered walking by it as a kid, not ever really thinking about how haunted it was, but she just remembered always being drawn to the house. And now that she's moving back,

she saw that it was available, bought it for just under $200,000, fun fact. And when she bought it, the realtor told her, the house has chosen you. Yeah, yeah. You know, he was waiting to say that or they were waiting to say that and Vanessa Believes in ghosts now, let's just put it that way. You will find out about it next week. No, are you serious? Okay, wow, that was a doozy. Um, so that is the cage Goose cam from a cliffhanger.

Oh, my gosh. Thank you. Wow. You'll find out next week. Originally, that was going to the reason I'm tired is because I was trying to get all of the notes done. And then while I was looking at the notes, I was like, this is easily two episodes. So I'm just going to. Hey, I'm just going to give you a little spoiler. Same thing happened was like, this is easily two episodes, so I'm just gonna. Hey, I'm just gonna give you a little spoiler.

Same thing happened to me, which is why, again, I had to push an hour, I had to push a day, and then an extra hour of recording, because the story I'm covering is one of those where as you go, it's like, wait, oh, I have to include this. Oh, wait, I have to include this. And it ends up being such a long story. And you're like, I felt like a very standard kind of-

You know what- You know what teed me oh- What's up? Was that I was really trying to, I thought I was gonna do this entire story today. And had I decided early on that like, oh, I'm actually just gonna do the Ursula Kemp part of the story.

I wouldn't have even had to work yesterday. Like those notes were already done and oh my God. I'm gonna unt UO because I'm gonna T you on. No, I don't know. Sure. But either way, hey, here's the good news for the next episode, you're fucking set. I know, easy bruisey. That's gonna be the best feeling when you're like,

oh, I have to do, hold on. That's what happened the last time. I was like, these two partners, I don't hate them all of a sudden. There's something nice about it. Speaking of which, this is the story of Billy Joe Jenkins. Now, this is a case that I had Saoirse's help with and Saoirse's help with,

and Saoirse even said like, hey, this is becoming a longer story than expected. And then once I got my hands on the notes, I found more stuff that was even, like we were trying to squeeze it into a one-parter, and then I found a whole nother avenue that hadn't even been touched yet, and I was like, uh-oh. So it, it, spoilers. This is also a part one, part two. Man, look at us go.

We've never done that, have we? I've probably said that like three times. We've never done this before. At that, at this point, I don't know because I have heard, I don't know, maybe someone else weigh in. Nothing hurts my feelings more than finding out that I have just been losing money. I've been losing it this way. I've been losing it that way. Offensive.

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Rocketmoney.com slash drink. Last night, Leona and I made the smoked Gouda Goodles, and I need to let you know that Leona has become obsessed. She pulls the boxes out and they're so colorful and every day we pick a new one. She's gotten so obsessed with Goodles that I'm like, do I just reach out and say like, do you take three-year-old affiliates? It's the ultimate comfort food, but nutrient packed, has protein, prebiotic fiber, vitamins and minerals from plant sources. You just said that Leona is very drawn to the colors of the boxes and as someone with a three-year-old brain, I also am very drawn to the colorful boxes.

I don't know what it is. I think it's the best marketing they could ever do. I was obsessed before I even ate them, but Goodal's mac and cheese comes in a variety of options. They also have vegan and gluten-free, and they're a low-glycemic index food, so there's steady energy instead of the carb crash, which is what I always suffer from.

It's also Kosher and Clean Label Purity Award certified, so please go get your hands on them. You won't regret it. You've got to try Goodles Mac and Cheese, and don't forget, they're nutrient-packed pasta, too. Pick some up when you're out shopping. Goodles is available nationwide at major grocery stores and retailers, and we know you're out shopping. Goodles is available nationwide at major grocery stores and retailers and we know you're going to

love Goodles as much as we do. Alright so this is a story of Billy Joe Jenkins. Billy Joe Margaret Jenkins was born on March 29th 1983 in East London to Deborah and Bill Jenkins and when she was young her father was sent to prison, her mother struggled to care for her alone and so for a while she was young, her father was sent to prison, her mother struggled to care for her alone. And so for a while she was living with her younger sister, Margaret and their aunt, but she was later placed in foster care while her sister stayed with her aunt. So in June 1992, at age nine, she was placed with Lois and Sean Jenkins in Hastings. And the last name, I don't know if you caught that, but she was placed with another family

with the last name Jenkins. And it's a coincidence. So she's not- What about the Hastings, sorry. No, Hastings is the town where they live. Oh, in Hastings, okay. Sorry, in Hastings. She's placed with Lois and Shawn Jenkins.

The town is called Hastings. Apparently, I was listening to the Red Handed episode on this story and they were like, why does everyone from East London move to Hastings? And I was like, I don't know, great question. I'm like, I have no idea what they're talking about, but I was like, this is so interesting. Well, I have no concept of barely US geography,

but Hastings is the name of a town I have heard multiple times. So I'm just gonna roll with there onto something. Me too. I think that what they were saying is it's like a town that's close to the city, but like it's almost like how people move to the suburbs I think was the vibe I was getting, you know, like people move out to Hastings and like settle in with their kids, that kind of thing.

That's what it seemed like. And then there's the Battle of Hastings, which they also mentioned. That's why I know it. That's the other seemed like. And then there's the Battle of Hastings, which they also mentioned. That's why I know it. That's the other reason. So the Jenkins in Hastings are different from the Jenkins in London. So she is just placed for foster there. I imagine it makes it easier to foster someone with your same last name, but I don't know if that's true.

But either way, it's just a coincidence. The mother of the family, Lois Jenkins, she had grown up in a large fostering family and so she was really excited to take Billy in, but she already had four other daughters. So this would be their fifth daughter in the house. And Hastings was a huge change from London. Just to give you an idea, the population is 90,000 approximately compared to over 7 million in London. Dang, okay. So it was an adjustment for Billy to kind of get into the small town routine.

But she was a very confident kid. So she kind of adapted quickly. She was the life of the party. She was fun, full of life. She wanted to be a star someday. She wanted to be an actor. Her friends all would have voted her most likely to become a movie star,

go to Hollywood, that kind of thing. She was just such a bubbly and entertaining person. Her little sister, Margaret, who I mentioned earlier, stayed with her aunt and like remained living with her aunt when Billy was put up for fostering. Margaret considered Billy as the best big sister. She admired everything about her. She remembers that Billy dreamed of working for an airline so she could travel the world

someday and that I know and that she knew she was gonna be you know going places and having these big dreams Even though they didn't live together. They spoke on the phone often and sometimes Margaret would come to Hastings to visit Billy But she did note that Sean the dad always kind of put her on edge as though she felt that he was making her to feel like her family background was less than because they had like financial and class superiority. And she said, even as a child, like visiting her big sister, she felt like her foster family judged her background

and, you know, thought they were like poor or from, you know, weren't the same level of class, you know. So despite this, Billy's Aunt Maggie really believed that putting her into foster care was the right decision, especially with this family. She said the family seemed happy and well off, you know, they were excited to care for her. This is all very foreshadowing, of course.

Fun fact, side note, side tangent real quick, because this is something I had to ask Saoirse about. So Saoirse has a background in very specific, I mean, we had talked about this recently on an episode, and they study Irish is one of the things that they are very familiar with so I was like well you would know because Sean is spelled si with this or sorry si o With the circumflex no That's Siobhan, but oh Siobhan. That's what it is. Okay, sorry. This one is spelled S-I-O-N,

but the O has a circumflex, which I guess in Welsh is referred to as, now I'm gonna probably butcher this, tobac, and it means little roof. Fun. Because he has a little roof. I know, I was like, that's precious. I like how in, you know what I appreciate

is that in your true crime stories, you will desperately search for a fun fact before things get really crazy. That worked. Okay. It's really... That worked. I literally...

That worked. Yeah. Saoirse sends me 11 pages, and then I'm like, hey, I'd actually like to add something else. I have a question about the language of this whole story. And so it was really, really helpful. I just meant like, is it pronounced like Sean, question mark? And Saoirse was like, well, I have a background in Irish. And I was like, see, this is why, this is why I needed this.

This is a fun fact, people. Okay, at the end of the day, we're all gonna be sad, but just know, little roof. Right now, little roof. If you take nothing else with you today, just remember, in the Welsh, they call it little roof. If you take nothing else with you today, just remember in the Welsh, they call it little roof. Okay, so side note, Sean, the original Irish name, which means John, S-E-A-N, you know,

with the, it has a accent, I guess it's called, the fada, so originally it's S-E it's called the fada. So originally it's S-E-A with the fada and then N. But then a lot of people who like move outside of Ireland or don't use it with the traditional, they take off the accent, right? Because it's easier for paperwork and it's probably easier in a lot of ways. So that's how Sean, S-e-a-n kind of became normalized like in the US without the accent. That is a fun

fact because I never oh what. No it is but I want to finish the fun fact which is that s-e-a-n without the accent actually means old it's like a completely different word so if you take off the accent technically means old. It's like a completely different word. So if you take off the accent, technically, it's just it's the word old, which is very fun. So I think you skipped over the other fun fact, which I was unaware of. Maybe everyone else in the world was. But I didn't even know Sean was a derivative of John. Had no idea. Oh, yes. No, I said that it means John.

It's like the version of John. I know. But I'm saying you just taught me that I didn't know that. Oh, sorry. I thought I said that it means John. It's like the version of John. I know, but I'm saying you just taught me that. I didn't know that. Oh, sorry. I thought you said I skipped over it. Yes. Yes. It's John in... Makes total sense. Had no idea. It's kind of like Will and Bill. Like it's like the rhyming situation. But Sean and John, I had no idea that that was where they came from. Interesting, right?

Yeah. Anyway. Okay. Anyway. So if your name is Sean, it's actually old. Or John. So good luck. It's actually, no matter what, it's not Sean.

You'll never know. Yeah. So Sean, S-I-O with a circumflex N is how it's spelled and I just wanted to make sure that's how I was supposed to pronounce it, etc. So let's get back into it. We're going to talk about Sean and Lois. This is the foster couple, the foster family, the two parents that took Billy in. They were financially stable.

Lois worked in social services and Sean had recently been appointed deputy headmaster at an all boys school, which sounds very highfalutin. Their house in Hastings was located a mile from the sea, across from like a beautiful park, a sprawling park. The family was very busy. They had work, school, they had lots of social activities and extracurriculars I mean with five daughters, you know, they're very busy And so that's kind of how they are known around town Now, let's jump to February 15th

1997 okay, it's a Saturday and it's a normal but hectic day for the Jenkins family Lois is grocery shopping It's a normal but hectic day for the Jenkins family. Lois is grocery shopping. Billy and her sister Annie had chores to do, and their sister Charlotte, who they called Lottie, had a clarinet lesson. So as part of her chores, Billy was assigned to paint the patio doors.

They're these like French doors. Hmm, sounds fun. That open onto the patio. So she is assigned to paint the French doors. While painting, Billy got paint on the glass and some of the patio stone. And her foster father needed to clean it up with white spirit, which I guess is a paint solvent that in the US we call mineral spirits. Do you know about this? Nope.

Okay, me neither because they were talking about white spirit on the Like a drink? Red-handed? No, but they were like, oh well who doesn't have a bottle of white spirit for like paint? And I'm like, what? What is that? Is it just like their version of paint thinner or something? Oh, it is paint thinner. Yeah, so I guess you would just call it paint thinner then. Yeah, I wouldn't know anything about the brand. I mean, that's even mineral spirits. Yeah, I wonder if that just how to just flip the patio stones over so no one saw that I spilled.

I wouldn't even done the paint theater thing. Big time. But it's a cleaning solvent. I don't know. I don't really get it. But he basically needed to go buy some, to pick some up to get the paint off of the patio stones and the window. So Sean took Annie to first go get Lottie from her clarinet lesson. So Billy was now at home alone painting. And while Billy stayed home painting, everybody else was out.

So Lois took the two youngest daughters and the dog out for a walk. Sean, who was picking up Lottie from clarinet with Annie, came home briefly, then took both Annie and Lottie again to go get the white spirit at like the store. Sure. And Billy stayed home. This is just the timeline of the day. Sure. And Billy stayed home. This is just the timeline of the day. Okay. So just before 3 p.m.,

Sean and the girls return home from their visit to the store. Annie and Lottie walk out to the patio and start screaming. They had found Billy, their sister, lying on the ground, completely covered in blood. Sean ushered the girls out of the room and called 999. Neighbor Denise Lancaster rushed over, tried to kind of feel Billy to see if there was

any sign of life. She felt that she was cold to the touch. She was bleeding profusely. And disturbingly, as she kind of looked down at her, she noticed a piece of plastic almost coming out of her nostril. Okay. And she starts pulling it.

It's a plastic trash bag that has been like shoved up her nose. I OK, first of all, I can't even think about the actual sadness of I can't even process that. The physicality of how that's possible is a different story completely. I don't know how you do that. I mean, it could have been a small. OK, whatever it was, it was a bin liner, like a trash bin liner. Okay, and yeah, it was just shoved up her nose Yeah, really? Yeah, really horrific. So some okay, so I'm like chilling in like a weird

Yeah, and my immediate takeaway is like so obviously something happened there that someone did not try to hide Mm-hmm. Um, and she how do we know how long she was home alone for? Like, was it like an hour, was it like? So the general consensus, see, there's not a general consensus. So Sean, Sean claims it was like 45 minutes to an hour. Okay. I believe, I believe. If I recall like 45 minutes, maybe he said.

However, let's just say that's debatable. Okay, I believe I believe if I recall like 45 minutes, maybe he said However Let's just say that's debatable. Okay, or has been debated in the past got it so Denise notices this. Oh I'm it's horrible and has to pull it out. Like you said it was like and has to pull it out, like you said, it was like somehow really forcefully put in there. She had to really forcefully remove it, but you know, there may have been the fear

of just like choking on it. Who knows? I imagine in that moment you'd be like, I need to fix this. Like, you know, your brain probably would jump in to do that. Which you are fucking with a crime scene, which like sucks, but I would have done the same thing.

I wouldn't have even been thinking about it. There's a little girl there. Priority is, you know, make sure she's okay. So who knows? But so she pulls that out of her nose and it's like hard for her to yank out, but she has to pull it up because it was... Oh my God.

Okay, I'm moving on now, everybody, I'm sorry. So on the 999 call, Sean sounded confused. He first said Billy had an accident, then claimed he wasn't sure what happened. Then they asked if Billy was breathing and he responded, I don't know. I haven't looked a little bit odd. But paramedics, I haven't looked. Give looking, give looking a shot. Yeah. Give a quick look. Give a quick look. Scan the room. Yeah. You're your small daughters are the only other ones and your neighbor. Maybe maybe go to. Yeah, it's just whatever. OK.

So when paramedics arrived, they initially passed the house. And so Sean went outside to redirect them. But then instead of going back. Into the house. Yeah. He goes into his car and sits in his car. I don't like the smell of this at all. I'll tell you I don't either I don't either and Is he in his car for a while? Okay, sure and

You know at the time of course, this is an emergency situation. They're not necessarily paying enough attention to that They're focused on Billy. So they go find Billy's body Nearby they realize she has not had an accident But she has been bludgeoned to death with a heavy-duty tent stake. Oh my god And I'm talking not like a flimsy rod one. Yeah, no, the like a railroad spike. Yes, a huge metal long iron pipe, basically.

Oh, yeah. And they could tell the attack was frenzied, opportunistic, you know, not like carefully planned, obviously. It's like you only got so many minutes before everyone comes home. Well, I think they met more like whatever happened, this person just reacted violently like it wasn't like, oh, preplanned. It was like. Whatever happened here happened like it. Was ignited here, I don't think like a crime of passion sort of thing,

not necessarily like a premeditated murder, if that makes sense. They they because I mean, there's just a, somebody had just grabbed a camping stake, I assume, and, you know... Right, but I'm saying like, like, that, we're saying the same thing. I think I'm just coming at it from like the, like they realized they only had so much time

to do what they needed to do, so they just kind of grabbed what they had, and they knew like someone could come home at any moment, so I'm just gonna do this and be done with it. No, I think more just like, I don't know the right word, like that the person didn't plan it. Like there was no, they didn't know they were gonna do this today.

Like they didn't know going into it that this would happen. Okay. Does that make sense? That it just like, like, what's it called? Is that called a crime of passion? Like heat of the moment sort of. Yeah. Yeah.

I think that's, that's sort of the only thing they could really tell was that it was opportunistic in that they grabbed what was nearby and just went for it. And it was very frenzied, very, very brutal, very bloody. Now, of course, the neighborhood immediately panics. And they're thinking like, oh my God, there's just this killer on the loose who's wandering around killing children, you know, like brutally attacking children. And the backyard where Billy was painting these patio doors,

their back patio is very open, so you can like really easily kind of, it's pretty open access to other housing and other families. So first of all, you'd think somebody would have heard something, but I guess not. But second of all, you know, now people are thinking somebody just wandered by,

spotted her and like came after her. Killed her. Yeah. Killed her on the spot. So that being said, a hotel employee reported a man in crisis with a noticeable facial mark who had been acting strangely near the Jenkins home sometime in recent history, recent memory. So more witnesses came forward and said, wait, I also happened to see that man recently and he was wandering around the park across the street and he was acting erratically and

People were unsettled It of course, you know was a mental health crisis. So You know looking at it from that perspective. It wasn't deliberately menacing but when Police took him into custody But when police took him into custody, they realized a bizarre detail, which is that this man also had a plastic bag fetish. Oh my god. Okay.

And he was known to have plastic kind of on him at all times. When they searched him, they found him chewing on plastic. They discovered pieces of plastic in his socks and underwear. And you know, it just seemed like a strange coincidence. Yeah, certainly. Given the plastic that was stuffed into her nose. I would certainly be noticing that. Yeah. Yes, it's definitely worth noting. He was incoherent. He was unresponsive, so they weren't

really able to properly question him. So instead, investigators gathered witness statements about his whereabouts so that they could make a timeline of where he was based on sightings of him. And it wasn't him because they put together a timeline and he had a very solid alibi. Witnesses clearly remembered him on a certain bench at the time of the murder, and it was far from the Jenkins home. I guess it would be too easy.

I guess. In the world of story writing, yes, it would be too easy. Imagine that that was part one, it would be too easy. Imagine that that was part one, you know, the end. Like I already told you there's a part two. So yeah, unfortunately we all knew it wouldn't be that easy. Yeah. But yeah, how what are the odds this would be a plastic bag?

Isn't that weird? That's like chilling. You would think that's a case closed situation. I'm like, oh, we found him, easy. I mean, I'm glad they did thorough enough investigating to make sure that he had an alibi, you know? Like, I'm glad, because if he wasn't able to speak for himself, I don't know. You could see how they could just be like, eh, he clearly did it, you know? I'm glad they did the proper investigating.

Anyway, he wasn't the guy. So fast forward nine days after Billy's death, the date is February 24th, 1997. Police arrive at the Jenkins home and arrest Sean for the murder of his foster daughter. Well, I kind of sense that he'd at least be a suspect. At least. So Sean appeared surprised but remained calm. He asked if he could shower and shave before leaving and the police were like, no. We've got a schedule that we're working on here. You're going to jail right now, please come on. These are handcuffs. You're not going to shave right now. Put your shoes on. We're not going to give you a sharp metal razor right now great way they're about to put next to your throat

Yeah, nope need that right like what are you thinking? So the police were like no you're being arrested He then asked if he would be gone for a while and the officers were like yes, babe. You're being arrested Like this isn't this isn't like a lunch Like, you're not coming back right now. A quick pop in, you know, this is an arrest situation. And so they said, yeah, it will be a little while. And they were like, maybe you should bring a book. And I loved that.

And then one of them pointed out a book on the table and said, Oh, is, is this yours? And he said, yeah, it is. It was silence of the lambs. And he was like, yeah, I'll take that. I know. What a fucking, which like, I will give him credit. If someone arrested me in the troll hole full of like paranormal paraphernalia and true crime skulls and shit, Right. It would not be cute.

It would be a bad look. And like who doesn't have a copy of Silence of the Lambs, you know? Yeah, everyone's got a Stephen King something. Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ. Oh my God. I'm so sorry, everyone. I just some my alarm summoned all of us. What was that? The M's wake up alarm is so effing loud.

It has to be that letter I won't wake up I know and it's terrifying when it goes off in the room with you because it's like what's wild too is like that at That volume when I'm sleeping I've slept through it and there are videos of like the phone being right here as loud as possible And I'm just snoring through it. It feels fake. I don't know how you you must be Astral projecting somewhere. There feels fake. I don't know how you you must be astral projecting somewhere. There's no way I'd call it. I call it going to the beyond because I'm like, yeah, that's right.

I'm not of this world anymore. Oh, my God. I broke into Wallace last night and I was like, thank God I'm broken to Wallace. I was so tired and I was like, I've had such bad insomnia. I was like, all right. I'd better focus. Nothing really happened. I just fell asleep. I was just like so grateful for your trick. Isn't it a fun way to fall asleep though? It's like pretty easy. It's weirdly easy. I don't understand how it works, but it works. Everybody tell me that it works for you or is it just me and Em? Are we just weirdos?

Yeah, for those of you who need to know, I literally just envisioned... Wallace is a wall named Wallace. Oh, didn't we talk about this on the podcast? We did, but in case anyone else is like, what the fuck was that? And I don't wanna go back and re-listen. I was so afraid for a minute that that was never discussed. And I was like, I sound so badly. Imagine if you invented it

and I'm hearing it for the first time. No, don't say that. That's so twisted. No, Wallace is a wall that I, it started as me trying to meditate into falling asleep and I accidentally flew too close to the sun and now it puts me in the beyond and I'm able to actually project.

You like access a parallel dimension. It worked a little too well, but basically it's like, in my mind it's like, just like how you described this the other day is like the wall from like a high school gym. Like it's like that weird like overly painted Like brick or something Or like cinder blocks, whatever concrete Yeah

in my mind the wall looks like that and I just like get near it and I start like punching it or like grabbing at it until like the texture changes into putty and I can like climb in and By the time I climb in I'm quote falling, I've fallen asleep. It's like, it's like weird. It has worked for me multiple times. I said, Oh, I did that last night and said how to go. And I was like, I don't know. I fell right asleep.

Eventually you eventually if you punch it hard enough, it just gets softer and softer. And then it just gets stretchy. And you just kind of find your way on the other side of Wallace. And then I never remember anything. And now you're in the beyond. Now you're in the beyond. I mean, seriously, it's kind of find your way on the other side of Wallace. And then I never remember anything. And now you're in the beyond. Now you're in the beyond.

I mean, seriously, it's kind of amazing. I think I cracked the case on how to trick yourself into falling into sleep. I mean, it's really helped me. So yeah, just worth a shout out. Anyway. So Silence of the Lambs, yes, it belongs to him, but he hesitates for a moment and decides against taking it. Probably good move, Sean. As he's led away, Lois is sitting on the stairs just sobbing, sobbing, like just totally beside herself. Yeah, and not only like sad that you just experienced the trauma of someone dying, the fear of like what happened

and is that person on the loose and are they gonna hurt me again later, then your husband being arrested, whether or not he's guilty is hard. And then wondering if he's guilty and have you missed the signs all along? Great point. I mean, just so many-

And having four other daughters to suddenly have to comfort. And wondering if something happened there. And also on top of that, wondering like, is your own, like this should not be your first thought, but like as a foster, like as your own reputation soil now, like are you ever gonna be able to foster again because of this crisis, you know? This is, yeah.

And so like losing something that's really important to you and you grew up with on your own, like, so it's a, everything's shaky. To have, like I imagine there's a special, I don't know, guilt or fear of when you're watching, when you're fostering someone that you're meant to take care of because they were displaced in a way that they didn't have the proper care and now it's almost like you failed at that. Yeah, feeling like a failure or like you're, like you're, you're not a safe person, like you maybe thought you were. Like you wanted like you're not a safe person

like you maybe thought you were. Like you wanted your home to be a safe place for this child because you fell for her. And yeah, that must be just heartbreaking. Like you said, they're worried about their own trauma of like, wow, you were already like going through something before you came here and now like I've only like made things like more vulnerable or unsafe for you

or made you feel panicky, yeah. It's just, it's terrible. No, you're right. I don't think I'd actually realized how many of those layers were there until you mentioned it. And Lois, man, she goes through at this scale. So now this is just kind of a random aside,

but I really, Sersha included it in the notes and I just thought it was a sweet moment, I guess. And you don't get many of those like we mentioned in my stories. So a family liaison officer, FLO, I don't know if they're called flows or fellows, but they're special investigators in the UK who work closely with victims families, which I love that that exists. I don't know how the process families, which I love that that exists. I don't know how the process works, but I love that that idea exists to ensure that the family receives updates and you know,

can also be close to the family and maybe gather evidence through interactions with the family as well. So it's like they work closely. They're a liaison to the family and one of them was assigned to the Jenkins family and the, the family. And one of them was assigned to the Jenkins family. And the officer who was assigned to their home recalled feeling genuinely upset that Sean might be guilty because like the way that Lois was so devastated and the fact that this was his foster daughter, like he just remembered being like, I really hope that that's not the case. And apparently while at the house,

he accidentally put an electric kettle on the stove instead of a regular kettle, like he was so kind of distracted and discombobulated. And it melted and started smoking and Lois rushed into the kitchen panicked. And I guess just off the cuff, the guy said, this is what we do to break the ice. Don't worry. And apparently she started laughing for the first time and like through her crying. And I guess like, yeah, it broke the ice between them. Actually needed that. Yeah. It was almost like this moment, I guess that they talk about in the documentary of like, oh,

this is kind of where she sort of softened to him and maybe calmed enough to open up a bit. And it just seemed like a nice little anecdote. I mean, it was probably like, I mean, like in the spirit of comedy, it was like breaking the tension, but I think it also like physiologically broke her tension for a second. Absolutely, because the second you kind of laugh while you're crying,

I feel like that really does like almost switch switch off the tears a little bit. It gives you a second to breathe at least once. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah, I agree. I agree. I totally agree. So Lois later told the officer that she had more to say about Sean if he wanted to know, but she would only reveal it if he was officially charged. And I thought that was interesting.

And I don't know why that is. My theory, which is just a theory of mine and mine alone, is maybe she didn't want to risk him coming home if she kind of ratted him out. She didn't, she wanted to make sure he was away before she told on him. I don't know, I don't know. But either way, she said she would wait to tell them

what she knew until he was officially charged. So Sean was questioned because hundreds of microscopic blood droplets were found on the clothing he was wearing the day Billy was killed. Uh oh. Forensic experts said it was like sort of an aerosolized blood spray, if you can imagine, like just teeny droplets sort of. Like almost like a paint can from far away. Yeah, exactly. Like the spray of a paint can.

And they said it was consistent with what would be found on an attacker, but Sean denied this saying that when he found Billy, he moved her and he saw a bubble of blood form in her nostril. And he said it either popped or retracted, but that's how the aerosolized blood got on me. I mean, I horrific, horrific either way. A forensic theory then emerged that Billy may have died with a blockage in her airway. So possibly a blood clot, which could have built up pressure. And then when Sean moved her, maybe a fine mist of blood came out, but forensic scientists kept trying to replicate it and they couldn't make it work. And it just seemed unreasonable. So they kind of tossed that theory. Sean was initially released on bail

while they investigated this, but when they couldn't hold up this theory at all, and that theory couldn't be proven, he was arrested again and then formally charged. What could he shave? With Billy's murder. Oh, you know what? I hope he got time to shower. I hope he knew they... I hope they called him in advance, like, we're coming over, get yourself together, get another book.

Make sure... Yeah, please, pick a better... Read the room, pick a better book. Yeah, exactly. Pick a Brene Brown maybe, pick a better book. Yeah, exactly. Pick a Brene Brown maybe then come with us. Yeah. So hundreds of people attended Billy's funeral. Sean was not present. Billy's birth mother, Debbie Woods,

specifically requested that Lois Jenkins not attend either. I kind of don't blame her. I don't blame her. I don't. If she's hosting the funeral, I mean, listen, I don't... I've never been in a scenario like this, but I don't feel I'm in a place to critique, you know? I also feel like, I mean, like, if your daughter... Whether or not it was...

We don't know who did this just yet, but especially because it was up in the air, and we don't know who's responsible, but my child was left in your care and now this happened. I don't know if I would want to see you right now, you know? On an emotional level to even look at you. It's not even about like, oh, you're...

Exactly, and I think that's the spirit that it was done in, especially because one of Debbie's friends defended Debbie's decision saying, Lois is obviously grieving, that's a foster mother, Lois is obviously grieving as much as anyone, but she is married to the man charged with murdering Billy. Yeah, not the time. Her mom can't take this right now, right? Like it's a lot. Despite this, Lois attended anyway and brought all of her daughters.

That feels, first of all, bad. Yeah, I didn't like that. That that almost this is such a weird thing. That almost makes me think that the family is guilty all of a sudden, just because I'm like to have that. I understand wanting to go and pay your respects, but to do it disrespectfully, like after being asked to not be there,

feels like you think you've got some sort of brazen entitlement during such a really vulnerable moment. It's like the most vulnerable moment. The most vulnerable moment. And it honestly was not a good look. Like you said, it just didn't end, it also didn't end well. When Debbie saw them,

she was reportedly horrified. She fled the church sobbing and she missed the entire service and the burial. She didn't attend her daughter's burial. I don't blame her. I wouldn't be if the potential killer or relative of the person who killed the person I love the most in the entire world just appeared after being asked to like respect my wishes. When you were expecting not to see them especially, like the shock. And you are expecting to have the worst day

of your life already. Yep. I'd be like, I like, first of all, like, there's no way to ruin this day for me, but you found a way. Right, right. You know? But you somehow found a way. That's a great way of putting it. Like, how did you make the worst day of my life even worse? Yeah. Exactly.

No, I found that really disrespectful. And this really, really deepened the divide between Billy's birth family and her foster family. I mean, just so weird that their names are both Jenkins also. It's like, it's just can't get more muddy. The stars aligned in a really fucked up way that day. Exactly, exactly. Billy's father, which I love, his name is Bill.

Billy's father, Bill, had once hoped to regain custody of his daughter. And in later years, Billy's younger sister, Margaret, actually reflected on this. And she said, we thought Billy was going up in the world. We were so proud of her. She was really going to make something of herself. And so it just, like her birth family was just so devastated

because I think there was also, on both sides they're different, I imagine, like nuances to the guilt and the grief. But for the birth family, you know, you think like, oh, I'm sure they feel like, oh, we, we shouldn't have put her up for fostering. We shouldn't have, you know, what coulda, shoulda, woulda, I feel like on the birth family's part was really intense. Um, and so just a very tough time for everybody. Um, and that's not to say her foster family didn't suffer either.

I mean, I think that the friend made a great point of like, you know, of course, Lois is is grieving as well. But like, we just need... There's a time and a place and there's a hierarchy here. Yeah, there's a hierarchy here. And there's also it's this is a very awkward situation that you are firmly in the center of. Like you, you are not the person who gets to call the shots currently. Yeah, not when the guy's in, is charged with the murder. And not only that, but when he's not just charged with a murder, but then being like,

oh, can I shave and like, like being kind of like a bit of buffoonie during this. It's like nothing's helping your case right now. Like you need to just roll with whatever everyone else wants to do Right and it just created more animosity Between the families and then as Sean's trial did begin which was April 1998 They had so much damaging character evidence against him Lois herself broke her silence and revealed that Sean was violent. Um, she alleged that he once hit her so hard

that it perforated her eardrum. Oh, my God. And that he had strangled her in the past as well. While Lois said she had never actually seen Sean hit Billy, she described that he had what she called vein-popping rage toward Billy. Ooh. Yeah. Oh, my God, I set off balloons. I'm sorry. Fuck. she described that he had what she called vein popping rage, portly. Yeah.

Oh my God, I set off balloons. I'm sorry. Fuck. God damn it. I gotta figure out how to turn that off. I swear that wasn't on purpose. It's almost a jump scare. It's not even that it's funny.

It's just actually just jumps. Just like adds to the horror show. Yeah. Yeah. It like makes it scarier. How do we, someone reach out to Apple and tell them. I know how to do it. I just always forget before we record

and then I hold up two fingers and suddenly everyone thinks it's a party. Like how many times do people actually have parties on here that they think like balloons are gonna be required every time someone says the number two. Okay, so she had alleged, I apologize about that, that he had once hit her so hard it perforated her eardrum and that he had strangled her again.

She said he hadn't she hadn't seen him hit Billy, but he had this vain popping rage toward Billy, which is huge. Yeah, like in doesn't doesn't help, certainly. Doesn't help, no. So then other witnesses come forward. One of them is a family friend named Peter Gamester, and he testifies that Sean had been violent toward Billy and he had seen it himself. Oh boy.

Yep, he says that on a family vacation to France, Billy had sprained her ankle, and Sean accused her of faking it for attention and sent her to bed as a punishment. Later that night, Peter heard Sean enter Billy's room and when he went and looked in to be like, what's he doing? He saw Sean kicking Billy violently in anger. And he later, or he said in court, this is what he testified,

there is no such thing as a playful kick. It was a proper aggressive kick. As I imagine maybe you cross-examine him more like, could it have been a playful kick? And he's like, you can't playfully kick your own child. Sorry. That's nothing. Nice try. So other school friends later revealed that Billy once came to school with scratches on her face and neck. She broke down crying when they asked what happened and said that Sean had been hitting the family dog

and she tried to intervene. So he picked her up and threw her against a door. Another friend recalled Billy wearing a scarf and they realized that she was hiding bruises underneath it. Ugh. And apparently, one month before her murder, she had told multiple friends, quote, I had an argument with my dad again. You can guess what happened. Oi. Man, this guy's going away. Wow.

Now, this is where I tell you you Sean's defense will be part two Is that the end of the episode that's the end Christine I'm sorry, but I'm not All right, I Didn't like that I would like to know what happens next I didn't like that. I would like to know what happens next. Man, I mean, he's going away. I just protect predicting things here.

It will be quite a plot twist if he isn't the one that ends up in jail for this. No comment. Except. Plot twist. Hold that thought! Well, there's a little bit of plot twistiness and you're not gonna like it. I will tell you, whoever is guilty is at this moment in the story really thinking they're gonna get away with it then they're just like man They found the perfect prime suspect. I'm just gonna sit back made in the shade

Okay, not not not quite you're not there yet, but I'll figure it out eventually at by the end of the story probably When as soon as I tell you you'll know exactly I'll know No, no you're you're you're pretty much on point. But yeah, there's some there's some twistiness, some weird side quests and some strange updates that I have for you next week. OK. Well, great.

And with that, thanks for coming to the show, everyone. We are going to do our yappy hour and keep chatting. Keep the good times rolling. Yeah. Where are we supposed to do something this week? I feel like we had that. Oh, yeah. What was I supposed to do with you this week? There was something special. Why would we not write that down?

We never do. We always think we'll remember. I'll go back and listen and find out and then we'll do whatever it is that we promised we would do last week because I remember being pretty excited about it. Isn't there a quiz or something? We're supposed to show things? Anything to show? to show things, anything to show? No. Hmm. We'll figure it out. OK. Please come to our Poor Decisions Tour. These are the last shows of Poor Decisions before we retire the show. And until we figure out what we're going to do with our previous tours, it will be extinct, essentially, until we reach the vault. In the vault. That's a great way to put it.

Um, all right, well, thanks everyone, and- That's- Why- We- Drink.