And That's Why We Drink - E422 Nostalgic 90's Tarot Cards and A Block Party of Ghosts

Episode Date: March 9, 2025

It’s Episode 422 and we’ve been Zorg blasted by Zenon. This week Em finishes out Part 2 on The Cage of St Osyth and it's terrifying paranormal happenings. Then Christine covers the haunting case of Alicia Kozakiewicz, the first widely reported Internet-related child abduction. And we’ll catch you next time astral projecting from our dreams… and that’s why we drink! P.S. We promise Billie-Jo Jenkins Pt. 2 will be coming soon so stay tuned! For a list of resources or ways to help those affected by the fires in Los Angeles visit: bit.ly/atwwdfirehelp ! The Pour Decisions Tour is back on the road! Catch us this month in Monterey and San Luis Obispo, California! Get your tickets today at andthatswhywedrink.com/live ! ______________________ If you like your money, Mint Mobile is for you. Shop plans at MINTMOBILE.com/atwwd. DISCLAIMER: Upfront payment of $45 for 3-month 5-gigabyte plan required (equivalent to $15/mo.). New customer offer for the first 3 months only, then full-price plan options available. Taxes & fees extra. See MINT MOBILE for details. Stop putting off those doctor appointments and go to Zocdoc.com/DRINK to find and instantly book a top-rated doctor today. Start your hair growth journey with Nutrafol. For a limited time, Nutrafol is offering our listeners ten dollars off your first month’s subscription and free shipping when you go to Nutrafol.com and enter the promo code DRINK. You’re going to love Hungryroot as much as we do. Take advantage of this exclusive offer: For a limited time get 40% off your first box PLUS get a free item in every box for life. Go to Hungryroot.com/drink and use code drink. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

There are so many perks to working in audio, having a microphone and being able to say whatever you want, riffing, you know, bantering with each other. It's just a dream. It's my dream. If you're doing what you love to do, there's nothing better than being surrounded by people who love it as much as you do. And if you own your own business, you want to hire employees who love what they do to boost the overall success of your business. Plus make it a pretty great place to work. But how do you find passionate employees who are good fit for all of your roles? ZipRecruiter.

And right now you can try it for free at ziprecruiter.com slash drink. ZipRecruiter is the hiring site employers prefer the most based on G2. How fast does ZipRecruiter Smart Technology start showing your job to qualified candidates? Hmm, let me think, immediately. ZipRecruiter's powerful matching technology works fast to find top talent so you don't waste time or money.

Hire experienced people who are excited about what they do with ZipRecruiter. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. See for yourself. Go to this exclusive web address to try ZipRecruiter for free. ZipRecruiter.com slash drink. Again, that's ZipRecruiter.com slash drink. ZipRecruiter, big time. Nova K. Forming theaters March 14th. Starting the episode with um is really strong. Um. Do you, are you an ummer or a hmmmer? I'm an ummer. Starting the episode with um is really strong. Um.

Do you, are you an ummer or a hmmmer? I'm an ummer. No, actually I'm an uh. Um. What are you? You're a ha, aren't you? Mm-hmm. I think I like some, it's a mixed bag, I think. Yeah, yeah.

We like to keep them guessing, you know? Yeah. Happy 422. 22 is my lucky number. Well, 22. We like to keep them guessing, you know? Yeah. Happy 422. 22 is my lucky number. Well, 22. It's almost both of our lucky numbers if there was a nine in there. Yeah.

That's unfortunate, but I'll just take the four and that's okay. When we get to episode 4922, then it'll really be our... 4922, yeah, perfect. Although it could be 2249, that might take half the time. So maybe we do both ways. We should really celebrate the almost 5,000th episode.

That'll be crazy. Oh, certainly. I think we'll be celebrating from our tombs at that point. But yes, we will be. Wow, welcome to episode 422. We realized after 420, we never did anything fun for it. And with 422, it just kinda showed up. I don't feel any particular.

Stumped upon it. Yeah, right. I don't know. I just feel kinda like, what do you want? I was on episode one and now here I am 400 episodes later. And I'm like, what happened? Feels like we just got dragged here. I mean, trust me, it's been a fun ride,

but I don't know where and how and why. Well, how are you, Kristina? Why do you drink this week? What do you drink this week? Oh, you know what? I was thinking, okay, so I have my, no, I've become really nutty because I knew this would happen

when Eva and I came up with the plan, the joint plan to get everybody a Stanley Cup, including ourselves for Christmas. And so, you know, she also sent like accessories, right? Like we talked about, and I was like, I don't need an accessory, that's ridiculous. And now I'm like, oh, I have some little, yeah, like it's stupid.

I have a little thing for my like weed vape. I have like this little cloud that covers the top just so dust doesn't fall in. Like it's just, I've become, and my sister jokingly said, don't tell me you have one of those things that holds your phone. And I was like, and my vape and my wallet. And she was like, oh no, and my AirPods.

Anyway, it's a whole thing. And I've really realized like today, I kind of had to come to a screeching hall and go like, this is getting a little out of control, Christine like reign it in. You know? I do wonder like what the like development team at Stanley was thinking when they did that.

They were like, it's a purse for your cup, but actually let's make it an actual purse. Like it's just gonna hold everything. Yeah, now it's like, do you want a little water with your purse? And the verse is like, do you want a little purse with your water? It's like how your iPhone was supposed to be a phone

plus other stuff, but now- Plus music, right? And then it's like, wait a minute. But now it's all, it just happened. Like a phone plus other stuff, but now music right and then it's like wait a minute But now it's all it just happened like a phone is a side effect at this point It's like nobody wants to use that part of it. That's that's like decrepit technology. We don't need that. Yeah, why Carl? Yeah, I'm just gonna zorg blast you instead That's how you'll know I'm there. I'm sorry. Zorg Blast was a crazy thing to say. I was channeling Xenon, literally, not figuratively.

I was literally channeling her. Sometimes she pops in and she's like, I have something to say. You think I got this Stanley shit? Like, you think it was me? No, Xenon. That was a possession moment for sure. She zorg blasted you. I got zorg blasted right in my own eyes. Can we sell a shirt that says I got zorg blasted by Zenon?

And all I got was a stupid t-shirt. Yes and yes. And the other thing is, although I wouldn't really want to mock my own trauma like that, but I guess if it's for money, if it's for merch money, sure. So what was I gonna say real quick? Oh, so that's what I'm drinking. I just wanted to warn everyone, if it comes in screen, I have a very kind of minimalist background otherwise,

and then all of a sudden this appears, so I just wanted to give a little bit of a heads up about that. And oh, I do put my Zoloft in it as well, because I have a little pill case and it fits. I mean, it feels like it was meant- It wouldn't be worth it if you couldn't put my Zoloft in it as well, because I have a little pill case and it fits. I mean, it feels like- It wouldn't be worth it if you couldn't fit your Zoloft. Thank you, it's like it was meant to be.

And then I put a little Belvita. Okay, nobody really cares. Anyway, why I drink, I wasn't really sure of a reason until I woke up at four in the morning and just went, oh my God, I just had a lucid dream. And I had to like run and write it down. And I haven't had one in so long. And it was, I also last night, this is the original reason I was gonna say, I think I

almost asked for a projected last night. Oh my god. Okay. And I got too scared. Okay, I get that. Yeah, cause I mean I'm on the subreddit too and I feel like people say that a lot like, cause your body starts like vibrating and humming really loud and it almost feels like scary, you know, you have to kind of be like really relaxed into it otherwise it's like scary and you resist it.

But I was doing this like breath work meditation. And all of a sudden I'm like, I feel like my arm is floating out of my body. And I was like, holy shit. Yeah, it was the creepiest thing. And then I went to sleep and had a lucid dream. So I don't know if those are connected, but it was weird timing. And in my lucid dream, this is the stupidest thing of all that I finally realized. I have dreams all the time that I'm flying.

But in my dreams, I think that's just the normal thing. Like in my dream, I'm like, oh, another day of flying. And then today it finally hit me in the dream. I was like about to jump out a window. It's always the same window too. I'm always about to jump out a window to do my flying for the day. And then this time I went,

man, I really wish this were a lucid dream so that I could like actually do fly, go fly somewhere interesting. Like, it just sounds so crazy when you say it out loud, but in my dream I was like, just another run of the mill flying session. And I like went to fly out the window and thought to myself, man, if only this were a lucid dream,

maybe I can like pretend I'm in a lucid dream. Like, what are you talking about? I like gaslit myself into a lucid dream by going, let's pretend you're in a lucid dream, even if you're not. Maybe that's just the way to do it. So yeah, if you're ever like flying, it's probably not real, it's probably not real, it's probably not physical gravity reality.

Maybe it's reality in a way, but it's probably a dream and you can probably go do something awesome if you want. I had a dream last night that I was friends with Adina Menzel and I remember thinking, I can't believe I'm friends with Adina Menzel, that feels like that shouldn't be real. And then it just kept it moving. Oh, isn't that, that's like me and the flying. It's like, oh, just another day of flying, just another day'm friends with Adina Menzel. That feels like that shouldn't be real. And then it just kept it moving. I was like- That's like me in the flying.

It's like, oh, just another day of flying, just another day hanging out with Adina. So infuriating. I know it's like, and so then when it hit me, and the stupidest part is, I don't think it hit me in the dream. I think it hit me when I woke up and I went, oh cool, I turned my flying lesson into a dream.

And then I went, wait a minute, what do you mean you turned your, like my brain was still like, oh wow, I can't believe I flipped my real life flying lesson into a lucid dream. And I woke up and went, you dumb ass, that all was a dream. Like, come on, get it, like focus.

It's so frustrating. I really, I had like such an ego to the idea, like once I did that lucid dream where I was in an airport. I think that's been inspiring me to keep trying because I feel like that like that like kicked it back into gear. Well for me I thought oh now that I've done this I can do it again. Right now every.

It feels accessible and then it's like not. And every time I've had a dream sense and I go oh that's funny I can't believe I'm friends with Idina Menzel. Yep. That didn't even occur to me. It's the wildest shit it's's like your brain goes, nevermind. Yeah, I don't like it. For a while and then all of a sudden it happens

and you're like, wait a minute, I'm back. You would think that the most insane dreams would be the ones where you're like, wait a minute, why is this happening? But it's usually something so mundane. Yeah. It's so intimidating. So then today I was like, okay,

every time I go on my flying lesson, Christine, you're just gonna check just in case And maybe I go flying a lot of my dreams I mean, I don't know it feels like it felt like another fucking normal day of flying to me Maybe you're always friends with the Dina. So anytime you see her just feel all over check even if she's really here Yeah, even if we're really friends. I just got a check. I'll go Yeah, yeah, yeah, just, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah,

ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah I drink because I'm I got all excited and then I realized like man the brain is sometimes really Stupid how did you feel about the the arm floating part though? Like did you could you do it again once you realize it or did it shut it off? It was almost like how it almost felt like I had super Super sped up like fast tracked the feeling I've gotten before when I dissociate like from my body and I've done

That a lot before for various reasons, but also sometimes just to see if I could ask or project, but I've never gotten past a certain point. It almost felt like that, but supercharged. I think it was the breathing technique and stuff, and I was falling asleep. I think it was that combination. It was definitely more than I'd ever kind of gotten myself out. Whoever's listening to this for the first time

is probably like, what the fuck is going on with this true crime show? Someone's boyfriend who got forced into this is like, oh my God. Of all episodes, this is a rough one to start with, I'm sorry. But anyway, point being, I only got the arm out. I think I fell asleep after that and went to my flying lesson because I was running late.

So that's why I drink. I'm going to try it again later. I'll hit you up. I'll show up at your door if... I'm still waiting for you to arrive in my own dream. You know what's so funny? As I started lucid dreaming last night, because it was, I think the first one since you had yours,

I was like, oh, I'll have to. So I was like, starting my flying lesson. I was like, wouldn't it be fun if this was a lucid dream? Then I could go like pop in and say hi to M. Too bad. It's just a fucking flying lesson. Like, you know, and then, so when I finally was like, wait a minute, I think it's happening.

I woke up and I was like, Christine, like you were this close. Your brain was trying to say, they pop over there, go say hi. You know what's weird is I actually don't, I can't remember the last time I had a dream and you were in it. I feel like I- I don't think you're ever in my dreams either. Isn't that weird?

Maybe it's because we see each other a lot. Yeah. A lot of places in my dreams sometimes. Allison's not in any of my dreams. Oh, hmm. I think maybe you're right, where my brain's like, I already saw them. Who else is out there?

I've already, enough of that. The only dream I had where my brain's like, I already saw them. Who else is out there? I've already enough of that. The only dream I had where Alison was in it was the lucid dream. Interesting. Cause I was like, why is she here? And that's what like. Oh, so anytime you see Alison, you really have to do your test is be like, hang on. Oh, or me. So yeah. Any every couple of minutes, we'll just check to make sure. We're still here. Yeah. Why do I drink? Oh, well I have my LD. Good. Um, I bought, I know you're not supposed to buy yourself Charo cards because I know you're supposed to. No, no that's not a thing. Oh, it's not? No. Some people say your first deck is meant to be a gift and that it has some sort of, but in reality

that's not, it's just kind of an old wife's tale. Oh I didn't know that. Or it's just it yeah it's because it's all about energy it doesn't really. Okay well I bought myself two. I didn't even really, I wasn't looking for a tarot deck but I was like I have to, I have to get this one. Sorry my hair is a mess today everybody, sorry about that. It's been a real situation. I'm loving it. It really is almost like moving your hat up and down by itself.

It's comical. It's embarrassing. It's really great. I didn't mean to get a tarot deck, but I saw this one and I was like, well, I can't not buy that one. Show me. It's literally back to the future. Well, that pisses me off.

You know that pisses me off. That feels like the perfect fucking gift for Em. I literally just stumbled upon it. I guess I avoid when people find gifts that are perfect for them and I'm like, you found it first. I did, well, cause I didn't know about the wives tale thing. I did look at Alison and I was like,

I think you're supposed to buy this for me. She's like, not in the budget, Gabe. Well then she said, then she was like, I guess if you want me to and I went, with that energy, I'll just buy it myself. Exactly. I think that's why people have moved away from that sort of like story, because it's like, well, what if somebody gifted them to you? That's like a bad memory or like a toxic, you know, you're like,

you don't want that energy, like whatever. Can I tell you what I actually just got in the mail? Speaking of, sorry, this is and it's right here. Please hold. OK, I promise it's right here, please hold. Okay. I promise it's worth it. The mystery, the mystery is killing me. Anyway, the tower on this is the clock tower, obviously. They had some pretty interesting parallels. Okay, so Charlie are at our publishing publishing house. I don't know. We're not that fancy,

but it's technically I guess a publishing house. When we went for a book signing in Kansas City, she and I were talking about I don't know, terror or something and Charlie goes, Oh, well, there's this cool thing coming out. I'm like, don't feel any pressure, but do you want me to mail you a copy? And I was like, fucking yes, immediately. It is the Neopets official terror by Andrews McNeil Publishing. And the way that I just thought, Charlie knows me so well. I'm so glad she's the one who worked on the book with us, because she clearly gets it.

Truly. I can't think of, I would have seen that in a store and been like, it wouldn't even occur to me to get that for you. I would have just been like, oh, right? I don't know who to give that to. I don't know if I even would have bought it for myself necessarily, but when it arrived, I was like, wait a minute, this is so cool. Like, channel all your favorite Neopets,

fairies, magicians, and more. I mean, I can only imagine that the omelet is in here somewhere. Maybe. Well, I'm very happy for you because- Thank you, I'm very happy for you. Sorry, I was not trying to overshadow you. No, no.

I just thought, wow, speaking of very niche tarot card interests, yeah. No, I didn't even know they made, like who would think that you could- I can't believe you didn't own, I guess I probably would have seen that and already assumed you owned it, to be fair. It's the first time I ever saw it and I went,

I feel like I have to do it. May I ask where you found it? Barnes and Noble. Really? They now have a whole wall of tarot decks. Oh, they're trying to lean into the, yeah. Yeah, but then I also got another one, which- Have you used it yet?

I pulled a card yesterday and it seemed fine. It seemed fine, okay. Did its job. I also got a, I inherited my mom's from college, like her tarot deck, and it was like the original like Rider weight tarot deck. That's what I have too. But so I'm always afraid,

those are the ones that I feel like have the most energy behind them. That's how I feel. Yeah. But I also, I'm so terrified to travel with those or use them a lot because they are from like the eighties. And they're important. Yeah, and they're important. And they have to, yeah.

Yeah. And so I ended up getting another Another one when I was there, but these are the plastic ones so they don't tear. Oh They're like Like it's like a plastic card. Oh my god. Okay. I've never seen that before So I feel like I can travel with these and not worry about damaging them. Look at this is the one and I travel with them. See, yeah. And the bag and it's all busted, just like mine. And so I bought this in the 90s and I saved up money for it.

It was my first. So speaking of is my first ever purchase of tarot, my first deck. And I bought it for myself. So, you know, OK, great. You know, it's I feel like it's I always was so freaked out by that. And then everyone was like, that's not a thing. But yeah, this is my deck. But then the other day I was like telling my friends, I still have the deck that we went up to the bookstore

and walked up there and bought together and I saved him my money. And then I look at him like $22 in like the 90s or even like 2000. I was like, they were fucking like, that's extortion. I wonder if it's because there were so few of them back then though,, I was like, they were fucking like, that's extortion. I wonder if it's because there were so few of them back then that like, it was like.

It was like definitely at one of those like very boutiquey witchy 90s shops that like went out of business eventually. Mystic shop. A mystic type thing where Selena and I would go in and go like, wow, you know, and like look at the crystals. But yeah, I still have mine. So when you said like travel with, I was like, yeah, I've kind of really, might've gone through it.

That's why I wanted to bring some plastic ones because I'm always worried about them tearing or like if I spill on them. Gotta have a little pouch. Oh, that's nice. And then I put a little pencil in there in case I need to like take a note. Take a note?

Well, I got those and then I got a third thing which I'm very excited about. Can you show me? I haven't started yet, but I already know it's gonna be like a middle of the night fixation. Oh, how to read tea leaves. That's also a beautiful book. Oh, that's that, that's that, that.

Literally the tea company. It's beautiful, yeah, wow. I like how they were like, everyone's into witchy shit. We have to lean into this. Here's how to. Barnes and Noble and those folks, they get it. And Charlie. It's this really beautiful like box, like, like it opens as it opens like

a book, which I like. You can use their tea. Oh my gosh. Yes. I think it's like such a smart little collab. So there's only like 80 cards, I think or something like that or 60 cards. But so I was like, I feel like I could. And all of the images are it's like,, not to say like reading tea leaves is gonna be so easy, but all the cards are like a ring or bones or like, I'm just kinda like, I think I already can probably read tea leaves

if I have to be like, oh, a heart. I wonder what that could mean, like, you know? So anyway, I feel like it's less complicated. Meanwhile, I'm like, a sausage and pepper omelet from Fairyland. Wait, what could it mean? Well, though it's literally like a wheel and a crown and a flower and I'm like, a snake.

I'm like, I think I could probably figure this out faster than tarot. That's really fun though. Yeah, Eva got me a deck of like tea reading leaves that I've yet to use, but maybe either, oh, maybe in the yappy hour after this on Patreon, we can do either, I can pull like a Neopets tarot. Oh and i'll do it back to the future back to future yeah that'll be fun um oh and we have to say it because i keep almost forgetting but we really really really would love

people to come to our tour it's the last time we'll be touring this year because we weren't able to do a fall tour i mean you know that already but um you know it's the last time we're probably also doing this particular show and we really want people to come see it because we love it. And we will be in Monterey and San Luis... San Luis Obispo. San Luis Obispo, March 14th... March 14th and 15th. 14th and 15th. And we've never been there before and we're really excited. So go get some tickets, please come see us There's still time to get tickets when you're hearing this And that's why we drink comm slash life And that's the other reason I drink because we're about to come back on tour. I Am very excited to read some tarot cards with you. I think that'd be fun. Oh, yeah, that would be fun later. Okay

You know how some companies will like send you a bill and you're like, wait a minute Why are there all these dollars added to it? And they're like, it's just like a fee Mm-hmm, and you're like, oh but like what energy do I have to fight it? You know what I'm saying? Wow, no sense has ever been truer You get it That's why we're really excited about mint mobile. I feel like everyone who switches to Mint Mobile is like, oh thank God, you know, none of this nonsense. Say bye bye.

Bye bye, chow chow. Toodles. Toodle-oo. To your overpriced wireless plans, jaw-dropping bills, and unexpected overages, Mint Mobile is here to rescue you with premium wireless plans starting at 15 bucks a month. And all plans come with high-speed data

and unlimited talk and text, delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. You can use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan and bring your phone number along with all your existing contacts. I know setting up it's super easy you basically just they do it with you it's very fast. Ditch overpriced wireless and get three months of premium wireless service from Mint Mobile for 15 bucks a month. If you like your money I do. Mint Mobile is for you. Shop plans at mittmobile.com slash at wwwd. That's mittmobile.com slash at wwwd.

Disclaimer, upfront payment of $45 for three month five gigabyte plan required, equivalent to $50 a month. New customer offer for the first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra, see Mint Mobile for details. Have you ever woken up with a funky mole, a weird rash? I mean, and then I've woken up with

probably every type of like malady. A funky everything. A funky something because we record this basically right as we wake up because that's just the people we are. And I feel like every day we're like, what happened? So ZocDoc is basically the point that I'm saying is don't worry, ZocDoc is like this app on your phone where you can say help, I have a malady and they'll be like, come on in.

ZocDoc is a free app and website where you can search and compare high quality in network doctors and click to instantly book an appointment. I have used ZocDoc for quite some time. It really is so lovely to just filter what you need and it just shows up, it just comes up with a list for you instead of having to Google people and then review them and then wonder if they're in your network. And then call the office. Are you kidding? Such a waste of time. Oh my God.

And then they're like, wait, we don't accept your insurance. And you're like, why did I go through all that? Like nowadays there are so many providers on there. You can seriously filter doctors who take your insurance, are nearby, are good fit for whatever specialty you need, and highly rated too, which is really cool. Plus, appointments made through ZocDoc happen fast, typically within just 24 to 72 hours of booking, and you can even score same-day appointments. Stop putting off those doctor's appointments and go to and instantly book a top rated doctor today. That's z o c d o c dot com slash drink docdoc.com slash drink.

Okay, so where do we go with from here? Leave me a web my friend. Well, I have to kind of go back to an old web. So for people listening, we haven't recorded for like three weeks. That's right. I keep wondering why I'm so bad at this. Well, the last story I did was a part one. So oops. For everyone else, it's going to feel like it was last week. But for you, you definitely forgot the story. Oh, my God. I have a recap for you.

What is it? What is it? What is it? Maybe the cage. I was really recap for you. Wait, what is it, what is it, what is it? Maybe I do know. The cage. Okay. I was really gonna pretend and then I was like. It makes me really happy though, because there are so many times where I feel so guilty that I don't remember your stories. And it's like, again, after 400 conversations, how are we gonna remember every single one of them? I mean, and then I know, I remember you doing that.

And I remember saying, oh, the squirrel cage. And it's the only thing I know, I remember you doing that and I remember saying, oh, like the squirrel cage and it's the only thing I know about is the squirrel cage now, so I'm like, I can't stop thinking about that. Pottawatomie. Pottawatomie County, that's right. That's an intrusive thought also. And Council Bluffs, Iowa. Wow.

We said that too. So wrong story, wrong story. So not that. Gotcha. So I have a recap for you. Previously on, and that's why we drank. Da da da. So not that. So I have a recap for you. Previously on, and that's why we drank. The cage was a over 300 year old jail. It was around from the 1580s all the way until the 1900s. Yeah. And it was a jail. Oh my God. And then somebody bought it.

Yes. Oh my God. It was that cool little creepy little thing. And I was like so envious because I want to buy it. Okay so this was for anyone else who may not know or if you for some reason listen backwards. This is the recap. You don't think what I said will just fill in all the gaps? Well it will fill in some gaps but they're just to fill in all the gaps. There this was a jail that held men women and children for children for literally hundreds of years. So already a lot of bad energy there. The alley behind the house is where they would take the bodies of prisoners out of the jail when no one was looking at it.

It was called Coffin Alley. The local legend in this area, I think it's called Osith, St. Osith, England or something. The local legend in this area is that there was a woman named Ursula, and she was a midwife, but then Osith, England or something. The local legend in this area is that there was a woman named Ursula and she was a midwife, but then she got accused for witchcraft. Yeah, no wonder I've been having bad dreams lately.

You remind me of that old lady who used to be so cruel to me. Yeah. Well, so Ursula was, she was a midwife, but then people saw her muttering next to a house of someone who wronged her, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, she got accused for witchcraft. She ended up being held at the cage.

This was the jail she was held at, along with all the other women that she accused of witchcraft to try to help her own case. Or just under duress, maybe. Under duress, yeah. And anyway, so the big thing is that Ursula Kemp stayed here before she ended up being hanged for witchcraft. And that's what it's most famous for.

There's a plaque on the building. And where is it again? In- Not Pottawatomie County. St. Osith. Oh yeah. I think England. You just said that, okay. And so then in the 1970s,

after like over 300 years of it being a jail, in the 1970s it became a house. Right. And- Normal. Yeah, of it being a jail. In the 1970s, it became a house. Right. And it was super haunted, super, super haunted. Apparently anyone who's lived there has broken their lease early to get out of there. One tenant even died by suicide in the house, which has become associated

with the hauntings here, of course. And nine months after that suicide, this was now in 2005, a woman who's our age, 30 years old, her name's Vanessa, she moves in because she wanted to move back to her childhood hometown, and she saw this really cute historical cottage, and she had walked past it all the time growing up as a kid,

and she was like, hell yeah, I'm gonna get this house. And the realtor told her her the house has chosen you. The one on 123 Coffin Alley, that one? Sorry, I just walked all over your line, which was so good. But like, I just couldn't imagine anything better than a Zillow listing for like Coffin Alley. Anyway, I'm so sorry, go on. The realtor, it calls her up, says 123 Coffin Alley.

Is that even sure? And says, actually, you know what? That's so crazy because the house has chosen you. That was what the Realtor told her. By the way, that was the most epic cliffhanger and I do recall that being quite a cliffhanger. So I'm back in it, I'm back on it, I'm fucking buckled in, the house has chosen you, goodbye.

That's the best Realtor. They should get some sort of medal at the Realtor Awards. I mean, honestly- I hope they say that to every person for every house. This house has chosen you. You know what's interesting is, well, spoiler alert, Vanessa no longer lives in the house either, but she did say she was like,

the next person who lives here at the house will choose them too. Whoa. Powerful. Ooh, spooky. So Vanessa remembers when she was a kid walking past the house on her way to school. She was fascinated by the house. She always felt kind of drawn to it. She did not know, I don't know how

you live in this apparently small town and don't know about the local legend of Ursula, but, or she knew about Ursula but didn't know the part where Ursula lived here for a while when it was a jail. And she did not know about the paranormal, haunted rumors of the house. Wow. She must have been not in our circles in high school. She clearly was like, just like focused on her academics. I think that was cute. And she was like, oh, I didn't realize. Yeah. She was like, oh, I just thought it was like a fun little cottage.

Yeah. Very millennial. Well, she did say she was like, if I knew it was like a little haunted, I wouldn't have been surprised because like it's a village. We live in an old village. The buildings are centuries, years old, like centuries, years old. Am I stupid? Centuries old. I said, yes, correct. Fair point. So she said, this is a quote from her. Maybe it would have been fine if it was a normal haunted house,

but I didn't know a haunted house could be this active. And so she moved in, she had a childhood best friend move in with her named Nicole, so it's Vanessa and Nicole. Cute. Nicole did know about the rumors, but she was not bothered about the ghosts because I don't think she even realized how bad they were.

And she was like, I'm just gonna move in with you. It's kind of like roaches. You're like, I guess one doesn't freak me out. You just don't know how terrible it's gonna be. You can almost like move on really quickly. And then you're like, and then the second time you see when you start that dread starts building like, oh, this is a pattern. So she was like, I guess I'll move in. Like, what are the odds that it's that haunted? But right away, things were really weird in this house. So when unpacking, as soon as they moved in, when unpacking the kitchen, Vanessa heard footsteps.

And when she looked up, she saw a foggy black mass float through the door. Nah. And then she said, I knew I was in trouble. I just sensed it, like from the beginning. I just knew that this was gonna be bad. Bad vibes. But also her best friend who just agreed to move in with her is also moving in

like right now. And so she was like, I'm not going to freak her out. I'm not going to tell her what I saw. So she kept that to herself. It's for her benefit, probably yours, so she doesn't move out. But yeah, so she didn't tell Nicole. She was just like, OK, on site, I'm seeing a dark ass mask floating around. The women then found old documents left behind when they were looking through

old furniture and they found, I guess, I guess they found old documents which they later were able to put or look at next to the house deeds, like the old deed records. And they realized that all previous tenants that have ever lived here since this building was a house ever since the 1970s people have only ever lived there maximum three and a half years. Wow wow wow wow but after the third year they're always out of there. Pretty weird. One of the previous owners actually only lived there for a few weeks and then tried to sell the house at like a shockingly low price. So they were already like, okay, other people have experienced

something here. The women started smelling pipe smoke, they started smelling baking bread, and they started smelling something nauseating, which I'm assuming is like the smell of death. You don't want to ruin the smell of bread. That sucks. I know. I was like, the bread part I can vibe with, and then all of a sudden, death. Oh. They also said that sometimes they would feel on their body that when they would walk through certain doorways, it felt like walking through jelly.

Oh! I don't know. Ick. Yeah. I don't know. If I were a believer in ectoplasm, that's what I'd call it, right? Right? Like, is it like, just like, there's so much,coplasm. That's what I'd call it. Right? Like is it like just like there's so much

So much energy so much on you. Oh god, that's really fucking horrible Yeah, they also felt something looming and parts of the house that used to be the original jail cells There's one room that I think she literally called like the prison room or the jail room. And it was where the original building was. Nicole's bedroom door would latch, or the door latch would shake violently. Like, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. So it wasn't just like, oh, I heard something. It's like threatening.

Yeah, something was clearly trying to get in. Yeah. They would hear footsteps at night. Sometimes they would hear footsteps and then the door latching as if it walked to the room. They would see apparitions. One time early into living there, they found old photos in the house and one night they came home from work and found the death certificate of the man who died by suicide sitting on the counter in pristine condition. No way. It was just sitting there

as if someone put it there for them. No, no, no, no. And they later got in touch with that man's wife and she was like, I have the only copy of that. Oh! So why is it? So even the wife was like, there's no reason that should be there ever.

No, and also like he had died at this point like a couple of years earlier. So like the death certificate would be kind of, it would have a crease and it was in pristine condition. Like it had just been sat down. Yeah. What does that mean? When, oh yeah. So then later that, I think that same day,

Vanessa moved a rug that had been there and found an infestation of maggots underneath it. And she was like, too soon. Yeah. Hate to see that. Yeah. Hate to see it. One day she actually, there was a kid that knocked on their door on their front door. And when they opened it, they he was like shocked that somebody lived there. He was just like a guy, a kid walking by.

And they were they were both stunned to see each other. And this kid, Freddie, he ends up being like a friend of the house, I guess. That's adorable. He told him that his grandma, it was a practicing witch. And she always said that anytime you walk past this building, it is so haunted that you have to knock three times on the door to acknowledge the spirits of the other witches who were there. Oh, so he was just doing it as routine, like, oh, I just acknowledge, oh, wow, oh, what a cutie pie.

And then the door opens and he's like, ooh. Ah, yes. But yeah, so I guess he was like, oh, I've been knocking on this door all the time. I love that he embraces his grandma being a witch. That's adorable. I like that he, like, I like to think his grandma's, like, a little scary and he's like, I have to do it,

just to make sure I don't. It's just not worth test risking it. Well, so they end up finding out this is what he's about. And they're like, okay, well, anytime you walk by, if we hear three knocks on the door, we know it's you. They start making small talk with him when he comes to the house. Soon he ends up being a friend that they invite into the house. And one time while talking with him, Freddie said that a lot of times when he walks by,

he sees an old woman standing in the window. Yeah, is that your aunt up there who lives up in the corner? Oh my God. I feel like he was like, yeah, didn't know how to mention that when we first met, but there's someone upstairs for sure. Another time they invited Freddie in and he said, he wasn't worried about the house because his grandma had put a

Protection spell on him if he ever did go inside. Oh on him. I have a thought on the house. I thought that was nice Oh, he's just not worried about himself because he's safe. Yeah He was like well my I have no problem coming in now because my grandma put a protection spell on me You guys are in big trouble, but this is a quote from Freddie He said this is after he just said my grandma put a protection spell on me. He said, as I walked in clear as day a man said to me that shit won't work here. Oh my god. Oh, ew. That shit won't work here. Jesus. What the fuck? I hate it. God.

Another time Freddy spent the night after an argument with his grandma and he just went over there to crash. But the only place they had for him. Is grandma still alive? Another time, Freddy spent the night after an argument with his grandma and he just went over there to crash. But the only place they had for him- Is grandma still alive? I thought she was like his spirit guide or something. Okay, okay. No, he lives with his grandma. So she's very actively like, knock on that fucking door.

Yes. Okay, got it. She's like, if you're going to become friends with them, I'm putting a spell on you immediately. Oh, I thought it was like an homage to his grandmother. No, no. Okay, gotcha. It's much more prevalent, present danger. That probably means his grandma just put a spell on him

and now a ghost is like, oh, that won't work here. Nice try, grandma. Well, lo and behold, that spirit sounds like he might've been right because one night, Freddy spends the night there after an argument with his alive grandma. And the one place they had extra space for him to sleep in was the prison room.

And so he- Okay, but do you think when he left and said, I'm going to their house and she's like, I could remove that protection spell. Oh, maybe she was like, try it. She's like, yeah, you want to fight with me? Yeah. You know?

Well, he crashed on the sofa in there and this is a quote from him. I managed to fall asleep. It was very, very dark and I kept brushing my face. It felt like there was something on it, like a spider. And I opened my eyes in the end and I looked down and next to me, I shit you not, there's a woman there and she's on her knees and she's stroking my head

and brushing my hair. I can't scream, I can't breathe, I can't do anything. Eventually the woman vanished. Whoa. Imagine just waking up and you, so like you already felt something on your face. Like, so she was all, was she just there with your eyes closed the whole time?

Or did she only appear when your eyes were open? Wow, that's such a good point. Was it like you projected, wow, whoa, that's trippy. I mean, I would have been scared to see a spider and then to see a person, it's like. Who's brushing your hair, like actively putting their hand in your face, you know? That's very invasive.

Oh my God. Intimate, you know? Am I not saying anything? Like, is she smiling? Right, right, right. Do I want her to smile? I don't know. Does she feel like, Safe do I want her to smile? I don't know. Does she feel like frightening?

Yeah, I don't know. Anyway, I think that was Freddie's last time there. He was like, grandma, the spell didn't work. So Nicole and Vanessa, they're still living there and they start noticing that things are going missing and reappearing in odd spots. They are starting to see weird lights throughout the house. Crows are flying into their house a lot

and like crashing into the windows. Yeah, that's not a good sign. For Halloween, they hosted a party dressed as witches, which too soon, I don't know. Wow, very bold move, I would argue. Very bold move. I mean, I guess like you literally live in the place that witches are known to have lived. You kind of have to go along with the story. Very bold move. I mean, I guess like you literally live in the place that witches are known to have lived.

You kind of have to go along with the story. That's true. You can't really necessarily dress as Shrek and be like, yeah, it fits the vibe. You know, like I feel like you kind of have to play along. I do think that they maybe if I were that person, if I were living there and I dressed up as a witch, I would out loud be like, this is an homage of respect. This is not. And then later when you're doing a jello shot,

it's like, really? Yeah. An homage of respect. Nice try, that shit won't work here. Well, while getting ready for this Halloween party, while dressed as witches, they heard a loud sound downstairs that had no cause, then all of a sudden they felt

this really intense presence in the house. Ooh. And apparently that was a new presence that they had not experienced yet. But that presence was there to stay because after Halloween activity escalated all the time. Like there was- Weird. The timing's weird.

So it's like while they're getting ready for Halloween, I wonder if it's like they invited us somehow by accident. Maybe it was just because the veil's thin. I veil's thin. Yeah, yeah, yeah. True. They had it. There was an old chain in the fireplace. Oh, of course. That when they moved in, they didn't know where it came from. But the story goes that it was from like the 1500s and it was part of the jail. So it's like, imagine just living with a 1500s. Right. Yeah. Apparently this chain started swinging back and forth

at night by itself. Objects would no longer move, but they were throwing themselves across rooms. The TV volume would be up and down on its own all the time. Doors would slam, open, shut, open, shut, open, shut. Not even like one slam, but you would hear it upstairs nonstop. Oh, see, that's so, it's not residual, you would hear it upstairs non-stop. Oh see that's so

It's not residual, you know at that point. Yeah, like oh someone's trying to get my attention or scare me. It's smart and angry Yeah, yes a little bad combo by the way Smart and angry they started hearing the sound of babies crying at night Fire tools wouldn't move around by themselves the kettle, yeah, I don't know about the babies, but I guess kids also live there. Oh, true. Fire tools would move by themselves. The kettle would turn itself on.

It's dangerous. I know. Well, even later she says like, one of the reasons I had to move was because like my electric bill was crazy because things kept turning on. You're right that I didn't even think about the practicality, like the life practicality of living somewhere like that.

She was like, when everything, the lights turn on and then they don't turn off and the TV turns on and the kettle turns on and the stove turns on. So not only is it now expensive, but it's also dangerous. What if I'm gone and the stove just decides to turn on? Or a fire tool just decides to make its way across. Yeah. Wasn't there a listeners episode we did a while ago where like someone's mom Exactly. Or a fire tool just decides to make its way across. Yeah. Wasn't there a listeners episode we did a while ago where like someone's mom worked in a kitchen and she had to work the graveyard shift because she was the only one like brave

enough to stay there. And like after hours and she had to be there after everyone else left but it was because like at 10 on the dot every night the stove would turn itself on or something. Yeah and it was like oh she would have to go. It was like, was it a convenience store or something? It was like something. Maybe it was a. But yeah, it was like she would have to go. Yeah, maybe it was a stove.

We'll have to go back and turn it all off. And it was like clockwork. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know what that was, but yeah, I remember that. I can't imagine like always having to a wondering, is the kettle on? Did my shower turn on? As someone with OCD, thankfully it's not the kind of checking really usually. But imagine you do have the checking OCD

and then you're like, oh my God, I'm constantly being reaffirmed that yes, the stove did turn on by itself and I did leave the hairdryer on. It would make me crazy. I feel like in between developing OCD from this house and fully having OCD, the in between where you don't realize there's a ghost going on. Oh it must just be painful. The crazy making of like I swear I actually did turn this off.

Totally out of your mind yeah. It was constantly freezing colds in the house where it shouldn't have been. The tap would turn on and off by itself. Again, the latches and the doors would move on their own. I will reiterate again, because in a lot of interviews, she kept really bringing up the fact that like the door opening and closing, it was like a violent slam nonstop. It was just nonstop. Her hair would get yanked.

There was this one room that was like, had overwhelming vibes of like depression and grief You could hear Random people talking upstairs and laughing with each other, but nobody is there Mmm, I don't like that You would hear kids running around upstairs and there was no way to know who was actually haunting her house the most it just felt like Like a train station,

like Grand Central Station. It feels like just like a constant in and out flow. Yeah. And then you don't even know like what the story is except for the fact that it was a jail. Like was that just little kid inmates running around with each other? Like Yeah. Was that like people who lived there in between it was being a jail? Was it like, you know, or was it from somebody else entirely? Like a totally different place? Cause when you first said the thing about walking through doorways, my thought was honestly

like portal, like that energy portal of like maybe something is open here that like gets, lets people in and out, you know? And then on Halloween when that one thing showed up, I don't know. Yeah. Something about like walking through that weird jello-y thing made me think of like a portal or something. That's a good point. Yeah. It's something about like walking through that weird jello-y thing made me think of like a portal or something. That's a good point. Yeah, it's something. A dimension of sorts. Yucko.

There were always shadow people all the time. Like all the time. She said it was just so natural. Boring. She said electronics would switch themselves on and off all the time. Sometimes you would hear people walking by you. One time she saw someone walk by her and like broad daylight. And she said they were just like solid people. Weird. Do you think do they see her?

Yeah, one of them. I get to it eventually. Sorry. There's no, no, no. There's like a solid apparition who like straight up, they just stare each other down. Like it was two of them just staring at one doing the hair to. Yeah. Yeah. each other down. Like it was two of them just staring each other down. And the one doing the hair too, yeah. Yeah. Um, one guy that Vanessa was dating for a second was a skeptic. And when he spent... For a second. He wouldn't last long.

She was dating him for a second and he was a skeptic for a second. Because when she, when he came over and spent the night, his soda can flew off the nightstand in front of him. Oh, we just read a story, a listener story before this, of a glass getting pushed off a skeptic boyfriend's nightstand. Yeah, it's always those skeptic boyfriends. That's nice. Three times, she said, were like the big time

she saw apparitions as clear as solid living people. Two times were guys, one time was a woman. And she said that there were, she said, there were literally layers of spirits here because they would range from nice to malevolent, and you just never knew who you were going to get. One of the nice times early on was the apparition of the woman that she saw. And she said that she saw the woman walk towards her. She was wearing old clothes and she was holding a pear-shaped bowl of leaves. Pear-shaped bowl of leaves, sure, okay.

The woman stuck her hand in the leaves, and then over Vanessa when she was sitting down, and then sprinkled the leaves on her. What? I didn't have consent to this. And then just like walked away. I feel like I would have been like, tch, tch, tch, tch. Literally like hold your breath walked away. I feel like I would have been like, Literally like hold your breath, yeah.

Oh my God, like is it dust? Is it ashes? What is it? But apparently it was like old leaves. And so she felt like this woman had very nice energy. She didn't feel threatened by it, but she also assumed that this person was like some sort of practitioner.

And her gut feeling was like, because it was, this was early on and them living there, she was like, my gut feeling was this apparition knew that there was a darkness here and she did something to try to protect me. So it was like, Oh, I'll do what I can. I'll do a little like ritual on you. Oh my gosh, that's scary. You know a place is haunted when one of the ghosts has to step forward and immediately protect you from the other ghosts. Oh my god, that's so true. With some dead leaves, like here's the

best I can do. Good luck. It's like, this is all I have in the afterlife, so we're just gonna have to sprinkle this on you and you're gonna have to just roll with it. Just roll with it. So yeah, so she remembers that she believes that it was some sort of protection she was putting on her early on. And another nice event that she remembers happening here is that her and Nicole, her roommate were sitting in the living room and all of a sudden they both look up and they saw these sparkling stars floating above them. And they said they were multiplying over and over again until the entire ceiling was like really bright. It looked like fireworks. And she even said to Nicole,

she's like, are you seeing what I'm seeing? And they both witnessed the same thing. Um, she said that was like one of the only nice things that ever happened in this house. That sounds awesome. Did it, did it just stop? And it just, I guess faded away afterwards. Yeah. Just to put on a show. Yeah. I don't know what the purpose was. Um, other times this, uh, other times as in like the not nice times. There was again this black mask that would show up and move from the floor all the way up into the ceiling. There was one

time that Vanessa felt something bite her ear. She saw a satanic looking goat appear and growl at her. The idea of something biting your ear when you're not expecting it is like so upsetting because it's so close to your face, your brain. Like it's an orifice. Don't fucking bite my ear. And it's such soft, gentle skin. It's like, get off me. They had a medium come to visit when they were living there

and the medium immediately was like, as soon as I got in there, I had a, I think she said a banging headache that felt like somebody was trying to crush my skull. And I felt like I was being watched and I had a really bad feeling that something terrible was about to happen. Oh my God. So a medium is like, Hey, this is what I'm sensing. You guys can't necessarily like sense it that clearly, but like you're clearly living in it either way. So like it must be terrible for your health and. Yeah. And the later on,

they even tried to bring more psychics in and the psychics refused to go in. As soon as I got there, they're like, yeah, that's a fucking red flag for yourself. Run. I think after this one medium came through and said something was going on there, uh, They went to the local church for help and the church literally said like basically, oh you and everyone else because they said that several houses on that street had come to them for help. Then the whole neighborhood was haunted.

So this isn't just a train station, it's like a whole block party situation. People just popping in and out. Oh my lord. It's like St. Patrick's day and a whole strip of the main bars. Like it's... Oh, and you know you hate to live there cause it's just like, it's fun for a minute. And then it's like, oh, it's so fucking loud.

Honestly, at that point, if I knew other houses were haunted, this did not happen. I would have done this immediately. I would have been like, I'm putting like a little like newsletter in each of the mailboxes. And I'm been like, I'm putting like a little like newsletter in each of the mailboxes. And I'm saying like, let's start like a community watch. Like, let's all be together through this.

How about like a blank notebook? We'll pass it on. Write down what the hell's going on with you. We'll pass it around. We'll all get together on Sunday. And if your house seems like the safest, we're allowed to crash there that night or like if like... Has anyone met Neil yet? Or is he new here? Like, this just must be the weirdest thing to talk to your night or like if like anyone met Neil yet or is he new here like this just must be the weirdest thing to talk to your neighbors about like your has anyone else

seen sparkling stars has that happened in your house a fireworks display yes it'd be so nice to like just have like a forum to go to you know like get dead leaves sprinkled in their hair or just me like yeah weird terrifying well so they didn't that, but they did find out that the priests were like, I'm so used to this stupid block and having to try to clean your houses. Thanks priest, by the way. Thanks priest. As always. When the priests went to the house to like do a cleansing, they got upstairs, the bathtub

faucet immediately turned on. Basically, the whole event was kind of useless. Nothing changed. And Vanessa and Nicole even thought, they were like, I guess we are not going to ask for help again because we asked the church and nothing happened. So we're just kind of stuck here. And I don't know if it's because of the church coming in, it pissed something off, but activity got even worse again somehow, where Vanessa began sleepwalking. And apparently she was sleepwalking at the same time every night,

and would always wake up standing where the last guy died by suicide. Oh! And it was on the stairs. So the fact that- Is that the one whose death certificate showed up? Oh no. So he's trying to tell them something or relive it or oh no.

Or like they're sensing his energy. It just got like creepy chill. Cause also remember there was one room where they felt like super depressed and grief and all this. So like maybe that was his room. And this is like kind of a sensitive line because I'm not trying to discount anyone's experience with like with a suicide or anything like that.

But according to her, she was saying that she noticed when activity ramped up, it felt like the house was goading her and like starting to put thoughts in her head And she would hear voices in her head whispering all the time kill yourself kill yourself kill yourself Oh my god, so I don't mean to like say like oh did he really want to Right, but I'm certain it can't help your overall mental well-being if you are hearing things like that. Yeah. That you can't explain.

But she was hearing it non-stop and it was when the activity was the worst. And this was at the same time she started sleepwalking and waking up right where he died. And it makes you wonder too, like maybe that was just his energy like... Yeah, yeah. Replaying in her head, you know what I mean? Or maybe he had the same experience, who knows? But geez, that's creepy. Well, Nicole's boyfriend moves in.

And so they thought they felt safer for a second because now there's like a third person there. Also, as you and I have discussed, our feminism goes straight out the window when a big, strong man is there. All of a sudden, I'll tell you, I weirdly felt safer when RJ was around because I was like, I'm gonna make him open the door.

You know? I mean, and he has muscles, you know? He does. I don't care who you are, if you're a boy or girl, whatever, but if you have big, big muscles, I'm feeling a little better about my safety. He literally qualified for the Olympics because of his muscles. Exactly.

So I was like, I think I'm okay. And then all of a sudden, I had to move somewhere without him and I went, what do I do? Yeah, yeah. Both in the way of moving away and literally moving your items. Cause it's like, oh, it's heavy.

RJ, where are you? He helped me move in and out of like three different locations. I knew it. I was like, I bet you he was also the type to be like, oh yeah, let me help, you know. He was always the, let me lift the heaviest thing you have. Yeah. So anyway. But I get it, yes.

The boyfriend moved in and so everyone felt safer. the heaviest thing you have. Yeah. So anyway. But I get it. Yes. The boyfriend moved in and so everyone felt safer and but then all of a sudden even he refused to be home alone in that house. He was like, fuck this place. No, the day Blaze says that to me, I'm like, you're supposed to not be the rational one. The three of them decided that nobody will ever be alone in the house and they ended up having to schedule out a buddy system and always make sure that two of them at a time were in the house.

That's so annoying. Like that must just get so annoying. Not only your electric bill, but now you also have to think about like and your water bill if the faucet keeps turning on. Now you're never alone either. Now you have to like plan your day according to other people's days. Oh, forget it. Eventually Nicole and her boyfriend get pregnant.

And so her and Jim move out leaving Vanessa alone in the house. They're like, Oh, we hit, we really need everybody to have a buddy. Uh, except for now. Bye. We actually got a third buddy and now we're out of here. This is super awkward. We found a new friend. It's in my room. Yeah. Okay, we have fun. So Vanessa's by herself in this house. And she, I think, bought the house. I don't think this was like for rent. I think she bought the house.

Oh my Lord. She did buy the house. It was for like, I remember seeing the price at some point. Oh right, because it was on Zillow on one, two, three, coffin. Thumbs up. But so the, yeah, one, two, three, coffin alley. So she lives there alone now and the activity is out of control.

Imagine going from like you just said, having a buddy system to now it's like, oh, well, no one will be there guaranteed. Yeah. Now you literally are alone even more than before. Like even before you had a roommate. One time she had a friend come over to like repair an electrical thing. But basically they ended up going to her and being like something just tried to shove me down the stairs. I'm out of here. Sorry, not helping you with your electrical thing. Oh, nice. Another time while brushing her teeth, someone like smacked the shit out of her to a point where like, and it was

on her butt too, which is extra gross. I was going and then I was like Christine don't ask that but yikes that makes it so much worse But hit her so hard the like her toothbrush and toothpaste flew out of her hands. That's sexual assault Violent like very really strong spirit if it's like physically attacking you whenever it wants and with very precise aim Like this is just really bad, really, really bad. One friend, or I guess they were two friends that came over, but one of them noticed they had just walked through this area, nothing was wrong, and then they walked by it again,

and now there were up to 30 droplets of deep red blood splattered on the floor. And it looked like someone had taken a dropper and just threw blood or something, or a nosebleed. And she took it as a warning, obviously, but even the friends were like, what the fuck is this? She's like, just get the Swiffer, it happens all the time, I mean, Jesus.

You know what's so shitty? I think it was literally on carpet. That's the worst. That's so fucked up. You think these ghosts can't get any, can get any crueler and there they go ruining the rug. Most of the time, I think after that, by the way, those friends never came back, obviously.

That's so sad. Most of what happened ghost wise was in broad daylight, or most things that she witnessed were in broad daylight because in one of the interviews she did, she was like, I would only see things in broad daylight because at night I was hiding in my bed. Like I wouldn't, there's no, you would hear things. I wasn't like exploring, right?

Yeah, she was like, I knew things were going on. And she was like, honestly, maybe the fucking stove turned itself on, Whatever. Let it catch on fire. Right. What are you going to do? Like stand in front of it all night and make sure it doesn't. Yeah. So she was just like, she would just hunker down at night and just hope that nothing happened in her room. And which is so terrifying. That's terrifying. How do you like my must just sound like someone's broken in down there and it's just a mess.

And you're like, I hope it's a ghost and not a criminal. Yeah, I would honestly, if I were her, I'm sure she felt this. But like, imagine the trauma of like seeing the sun starting to set every night. Oh, my God. I'm being like, it's time to to like retreat to my cave. You know, Vanessa was home alone most evenings and eventually Vanessa found out that she was pregnant. Oh no. And during this time.

I say oh no because I've heard, I feel the energy shift. So I feel worried. During this time activity spiked even more, which is said to happen when someone's pregnant because new life is forming and there's new energy. So now apparitions are showing themselves even more. This is a quote about an apparition she saw. I'm just watching TV and then I see this man, but I could only see him from the waist up. He was gliding very, very slowly, looking at me the

whole time, gliding past the beams. I saw him so- Looking at me, oh. Apparently they just like locked eyes the whole time while they walked by. No, and slowly. I saw him so clearly, he even had laugh lines. He had black spiky hair and he had old fashioned clothes on, but I couldn't see him from the legs down. And then she said that she did feel like he had relatively good energy,

but felt like he was an inmate from the jail. Wow. But it was like a solid man just walking through her kitchen, she said that she did feel like he had relatively good energy, but felt like he was an inmate from the jail. Wow. But it was like a solid man just walking through your kitchen, locking eyes with you the whole time. That's amazing. And I really do trust that intuition. Like she had a feeling it was because I do feel like a lot of times you can tell. Like when you saw your grandpa and it was like, oh,

it was him and you felt safe. Yeah. They just have a presence. So I feel like if she says, I felt like he had good energy and he was an inmate here, I'm like, that's probably exactly what it was. Yeah. Like, yeah, anyway. And also like, why would she like, I wish she got a picture of it, I would love to see that.

Or maybe she got a picture of someone. I don't know if it was that guy, but it'd be funny if he's just locking eyes and she just like takes her phone out. I was gonna say with the slow movement you're like, hold still. Well, again, she's still pregnant and while eight and a half months pregnant, she says, I was looking in the mirror and all of a sudden I felt two hands shove me and I hit the floor and I fell into the spare room.

If I were to fall the other way, I would have gone straight down the stairs. Jesus. So it was almost to be like, I could have fucked you up if I wanted to. That's when I always wonder that line of like, can they push you down the stairs or can they only push it so far? You know what I mean? Like, is there an energetic boundary or something? Yeah. That's very rarely do you ever hear about someone actually falling down the stairs in a haunted house? You know what I mean? I mean, I guess you hear people like.

If they're on a tour, like walking down, you feel someone kind of push them a little bit, but not aggressively shove them. Yeah, I feel like that's when it's really, really bad. Yeah. Vanessa later gave birth to her son. His name was Jesse and she refused to leave him alone in the house, obviously. She slept next to him in the house, in the newer renovated area from the 70s because she was like,

at least it has less connection to things. It's not the prison room or whatever. Yeah, and I think she slept in the bed with him, or she was like, fuck the rules of how to make your baby sleep or put it in a bassinet or something. She was like, I need to be near that baby all the fucking time, something would happen. The one time she did leave him alone for a second,

I think just to go to the bathroom, something shoved him off the bed and he's a baby. Like, he didn't get hurt, I don't think. That's fucking terrifying. After that, she was like, oh, so, he didn't get hurt, I don't think. That's fucking terrifying. After that, she was like, oh, so I'm just never going to have a second. Yeah, got it. With him not in my arms. Yeah, got it.

The last six months that they did live there, she and Jessie stayed in one room only. If she was in the house, she was in that one room. She barely ever went into any other part of the house unless she had to. Parenting's hard enough. And now you're like, trapped in one room because you're scared of things you can't even see. Yeah, I think she was in some rooms like during the day but at night it was like I'm in my I don't even want to go to the bathroom. I'm just gonna sit here and just make it work. There were even nights where she was so scared to go into the house that she would sleep in the car with Jesse or she would stand outside in the snow and just like stall and just like sad, try to be like, how long can I be out here until

we have to go inside? Not only was she fed up, like I said, with being scared of the ghosts, but also the expensive upkeep of dealing with them. She said it was causing her a fortune because so many things would just turn on and stay on all night long or if the ghosts knew she didn't want it turned on, it would stay on. Right. And if they're like having cold breezes and stuff and you're trying to heat the house like. Yeah. One night she did have to go downstairs for a second. I forget what the reason was, but she had to iron a shirt.

I think she like had to wake up early and go to work or something. But she was so exhausted. And she was like, I'm just going to run downstairs and iron the shirt really quick. I will be right back upstairs. I'm just going to leave Jesse alone for a second. This was the only other time she did. She went downstairs to the ironing board, which was in the prison room where Freddie had that experience with the woman. And this is, I guess, where they kept like Jesse's toys, Leona's office, Jesse's office, but it's the prison room. And so she's like,

I'm just gonna iron the shirt really quick. And while ironing, all the toys on the floor turned on and started moving around by themselves. At her feet. Like imagine them just bumping into your ankles. And going like, hug, give me a hug or whatever the fuck. Yeah. She even said four or five of the Thomas the tank engines all at once started

chugging around her feet around her. It's like a little carousel. She had a gut feeling that this was a, some sort of warning sign about like, these are Jesse's toys, like something's going on with Jesse. So she freaks out. She sprints upstairs or she tries to get upstairs, but on the stairs, a solid man is standing there. No, no. And these are thin ass stairs, like one person at a time.

So there's, he is standing in her way. Blocking. From her baby. This area of the stairs, by the way, is where the man who died by suicide, died by suicide. So we don't know if it was that guy. The theory is that it was that guy, one because it was in the same spot where he would have died. But also this was the

only ghost that ever had modern clothing on. And the guy died only a year before she moved in. Oh, wow. So it's almost like that could either be a real person or, oh God. Yeah. But so it was the only time she ever saw someone in modern clothing. Interesting. And he was standing there just like in her way. Just like not, oh God. So she had no other option except to run past him

or through him or something. Yeah, it's like what else do you do? The adrenaline is like crazy. So she ran upstairs and Jessie was fine, but I wonder if like the stuff in the room started going off to make her walk towards Jessie to see the man, you know? Yeah, it feels like what was the plan?

Like, was it to scare her into seeing the guy on her way back? As like a threat? Was it like to protect the baby? Yeah, who knows? But anyway, after this, she knew like, I'll never have a second of peace here. We have to move out. protect the baby. Yeah, who knows. But anyway, after this, uh, she knew like, I'll never have a second of peace here. Um, we have to move out. So they alleged, oh, they did move out, but allegedly when the moving truck got there,

the driver also saw a woman in the window. Dun, dun, dun. At one point one day Freddie's knocking on the door and they don't answer. And Freddie's like, Oh, they finally left. Wow. It took them a long enough. Well, at one point, Vanessa, like I said earlier, looked through the deed records and saw that at this house, nobody had ever lived there beyond three years. And what are the odds she left on her third year too?

Wow. So desperate to make ends meet because she like had a mortgage to pay. Horrible. She was trying to rent the cage. It's still called the cage by the pay. She was trying to rent the cage. It's still called the cage, by the way. She was trying to rent it. That really needs a new brand, a brand refresh. She was trying to rent it out to family members, but then they only made it two months and fled

in the middle of the night. She had some friends interested, but they were like, we want to bring a psychic in first. The psychic refused to go in. Friends interested but they were like we want to bring a psychic in first the psychic refused to go in so she had She did not know what to do. So in 2010, it's been five years since she's been living owning this place She lived there for three. I think two of them. She's just paying the mortgage on a house. She doesn't live in. Yeah Eventually, she contacted the SPR which we don't ever talk about these days, but the Society for Psychical Research Which I forget that they still exist because I think of like Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. It has such a long history.

So she contacted them and they went to the house and they said there was a strong case that this was haunted, which I hate that they, that still doesn't feel like enough to me. I agree. It's like, wow, thanks. But they said because so many people have witnessed activity here, that alone made it a strong case. And I guess by them researching it, or going into it at all, this brought like news to the paranormal world that the cage was super haunted, like the SPR went there. Right. Okay. So like, it's like in the US when Zach Bagans goes.

Yeah, it's like, or when actually, to me, it reminds me of when Zach Bagans goes there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, or when, actually, to me, it reminds me of when Guy Fieri goes somewhere and all of a sudden he's stenciled on the wall and you're like, oh wow, this means something. The SPR should have tagged their selves on the wall. They should get themselves one of those, like a spray, a can of spray paint at least. Yeah, so this struck up interest in the paranormal world.

So Vanessa leaned into this and started advertising the house as like a paranormal destination for ghost hunting. And so she started. See, that's the rebrand. I love it. She started charging people to stay and investigate. And one investor, not investor, one investigator. I'll invest.

I'm not going to invest. This is the worst business decision. An investigator. I'll invest. I'm not going to invest. I'm an angel investor. This is the worst business decision. I know. One investigator that came through or paid to stay there ended up getting burns and blisters on their legs. This is where I also say another reason why I drank this week. I forgot to mention this at the top.

Oh yeah, we were dog sitting and, uh, I have an allergy to dogs that like shed quite a lot. And usually after like a day, like my throat's kind of scratchy, but then it goes away because the dog goes away after a day. We, we've never had an extended stay with a dog like this. And it went from a scratchy throat to a swollen tongue. And then all of a sudden my tongue started getting cysts on it, like blisters on my fucking tongue.

I was like, this is hand, mouth and foot, whatever all over again. No, this sounds like the plague, the bubonic plague. I was like, what the fuck is going on? I've never heard of that. And I knew, I looked it up and I guess that's like, it's called like oral allergy syndrome. But I think it's mainly for like food.

Like if you eat something, then your tongue gets swollen. Yeah, like I know what pineapples and things like that do that a lot of times to people, like tropical fruits. Yeah, I don't know like why a dog just breathing in. Was it a tropical fruit? Or are you sure it was a dog? Hmm, well, I was like, maybe a dog hair got into my mouth that had dander on it or something.

I don't know. I mean, you're probably just breathing it in and it's like aggravating your system. I guess so. And if anyone's got any- Do you know how they sell those filters for like your air vents or whatever because they're like, oh, the pet dander and stuff.

Like it might just be in the air and you're- Well, we turn an air purifier on and like within a day it's like going away. Oh, good. I was gonna say red, because when you do that and it's like red emergency level and I'm like, oh good. No, that's just like California air in general. That's true. You're... yeah, sorry.

Yeah, too soon. But I... yeah, that was another reason why I drink and I forgot to mention at the top but if anyone is like an allergy specialist, what the fuck was that? Because that was crazy. Like... I mentioned at the top but if anyone is like an allergy specialist, what the fuck was that? Because that was crazy. Like yeah, Em doesn't go to doctors. Em just gets diagnosed on Instagram with pink eye and over the podcast with a hand foot and mouth. That pink eye sucked last week too. Yeah, I'm like, nobody knew you had pink eye except everyone on Instagram and everyone's messaging me. I'm like what pink eye? What are you talking about? Well, I was just like,

you know, I had never had, I'd never had pink eye and I've never seen anyone with pink eye. You're literally probably the first person who's never had pink eye. I know. I'm honestly impressed that I made it 30 plus years before having pink eye. And high on mouth disease. Will your mom keep you in a bubble? Yes. But so I was like, what the fuck is this? And everyone was like, babe, that's pink eye. And I was like, I literally took one look at it and went, I had that like six months ago, dude. That's really yes. I as the first time, hopefully the last time I jumped the vitus.

Yeah, that was disgusting. It's nasty. Anyway, that and then the sissy tongue was also interesting. So someone sometimes like welcome to, welcome to our failing bodies. Just have like, I'll be the one that gets measles next or something. I mean, seriously at this point, I wouldn't be surprised. Anyway, I'll just say Vanessa was a letting of us scares and some of them got burns and blisters on them.

Some of them were getting bruises on them. Just like you and your mouth. Just like me. And one person I felt like they got stabbed in the chest. That was crazy, which I wonder if that's a jail residual thing. Might be SVT. Maybe. I have had that one.

One person claimed to get a picture of four ghosts carrying a dead body through coffin alley. Oh, whoa. That sounds crazy. But basically in 2019, right before the pandemic, Vanessa finally had the house cleansed by people who I guess knew what they were doing. I don't know if this was like the 30th person to cleanse it and that's what did the trick

or this was just the right people to do it. But the house was finally cleansed in 2019 and there's definitely still stuff there, but this was the first time Vanessa could come back inside and feel safe and like do interviews or Wow. Talk to like ghost hunters. So it took that long. That, I would still be probably traumatized. I don't know that I'd even ever go back in. Yeah, and she moved out in like 2008. So from 2008 to 2019, she's paying the mortgage on a place she never set foot in.

Oof. Then it was finally cleansed enough, but she did say that it's definitely so haunted, but it's nothing like it was. Like she wasn't scared anymore. Hopefully they get rid of the bad, you know, the negative stuff. Yeah. And a year later in 2020, Vanessa sold the house to a woman who said she doesn't believe in ghosts. So good luck.

Good luck. Anyway, the cage remains notorious for not just being a witch's prison, but also being one of the most haunted locations in Britain. And that is part two of the cage. Wow, I, you know, it's weird. It's like you forget everything. But then like once you start hearing the story, it's like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I like remember the details.

I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's kind of weird. Anyway, there you go. Good job. Thank you. Gio, my beautiful boy, Giovanni, does not shed. Does not shed a single fur. He doesn't. He has hair, I guess they call it. Well, I have hair too, but guess what? I fucking shed, okay? And I don't know what the problem is that Gio gets to have like this luscious head of hair. But I will say, ever since I started using Nutrifol,

I will claim this to the day I die that Nutrifol has changed my hair for the better. My hair doesn't shed as much in the shower like it used to come out in clumps and things like that. Nutrifol is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand trusted by over one and a half million people. See thicker, stronger, faster growing hair with less shedding in just three to six months with NutriFull. Everyone's root causes of hair thinning are different. So a one size fits all approach to hair growth doesn't cut it. So I use NutriFull, the women's version before Leona, then I use the postpartum version. They have a plant-based version for those who are vegan. NutriFull actually clinically tests final formulations

to ensure their efficacy. I think that's why it actually works so well. In a clinical study, 86% of women reported improved hair growth after taking Nutri-Ful women hair growth supplement for six months. Start your hair growth journey with Nutri-Ful. For a limited time, Nutri-Ful is offering our listeners $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping

when you go to Nutri-Ful.com and enter promo code DRINK. Find out why over 4,500 healthcare professionals and stylists recommend neutrophil for healthier hair. Neutrophil.com spelled N-U-T-R-A-F-O-L.com promo code drink. That's neutrophil.com promo code drink. You've got a lot of problems. I've got a lot of problems, you've got a lot of problems, Em. And a lot of them were exacerbated

by the concept of grocery shopping, especially having a third person in my house all of a sudden. I'm like, I can't just buy stuff for two people. I need to figure out like multiple meals for multiple people, somebody who exercises all the time, someone who loves candy, that's me, and then Leona. But Hungry Root stepped in and said, don't worry, they build a grocery cart for you

and it comes straight over here. I don't even need to go to the, they build a grocery cart for you and it comes straight over here. I don't even need to go to the store. Imagine a personal shopper, but it's food. I mean, hello. Hello. They take care of the weekly grocery shopping, recommending healthy groceries tailored to your tastes, nutrition preferences, and health goals.

And like Christine said, even if you have a kid in the house, they'll come up with multiple plans for multiple people. If you're dairy-free, high protein, that sort of thing, they really make it easy. It's super clear and they fill your cart with like a full cart and then you can say, that all looks great to me, which is usually what happens. Or if you want, you can trade out a few things. You're going to love Hungry Root as much as we do. Take advantage of this exclusive offer.

For a limited time, get 40% off your first box, plus get a free item in every box for life. Go to hungryroot.com slash drink and use code drink. That's hungryroot.com slash drink code drink to get 40% off your first box and a free item of your choice for life. hungryroot.com slash drink code drink. Hello everyone, it's me. Leona's here too. We're playing with slime and I've only ruined several pairs of pants. Anyway, I wanted to pop in real quick from behind the scenes to let you know I messed up. I know, shocking. Really a one-time thing for me, feels like really unfamiliar territory.

But no, seriously, I was supposed to do part two of Billy Joe Jenkins, and then Emma and I, it took like a long time between recordings and I somehow completely spaced and thought I had already done it, but lo and behold, I hadn't. So I am so sorry. I accidentally forgot to do part two on this episode, but that means it is coming out very soon

and it will be in your feed shortly so please stay tuned for that again i apologize you're playing with it yeah all right do you want to say bye to everybody yeah bye everybody all right so i have a pretty banana story today this one is one that i feel like will haunt you, will haunt people. It's really upsetting. Yeah, in a bad way, not haunting in a fun way. So this is the story of Alisha Kozakevich. Kozakevich, hold on.

This is the story of Alisha Kozakevich. Kozakevich, Kozakewicz. I've been practicing. It's hard. Kozakewicz. Sounds like a lot of syllables. It's Polish. So, on New Year's Day of 2002, 13-year-old Alisha Kozakewicz was at home with her family in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

It was a typical New Year's holiday. Alisha's dad watched football. Alicia helped her mom, Mary, prepare their traditional dinner. Do you know what's the traditional Polish-German New Year's Eve meal for good luck? I just assume like a sausage or sauerkraut or something. It's both of those things. Oh hey, alright! Yeah and it's funny So like, search added a note here about like the tradition and stuff. And I'm like, Oh, don't get me started here. I have a lot to say about this. Um, yes, it is still a tradition in Germany to eat sauerkraut for good luck.

Oh, okay. Uh, it is probably more, it's probably better known. I wouldn't say better known, but it's also common in like the Pennsylvania Dutch communities over here in my neck of the woods where Pennsylvania Dutch is typically more German anyway, they're not actually Dutch, it just sounds like Deutsch, Dutch, fun fact.

Sure. But I know I've talked about that before in here, but for example, the Amish, so a lot of those traditions kind of came over here, but it's still traditional on New Year's Eve, which by the way, I know I've also said, but it's called, do you remember the name of the New Year's Eve holiday, Sylvester?

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And on Sylvester, it's also traditional to give little piggies for good luck or for leaf clovers. Is it because sausage is made of piggies? I mean, probably. Yeah, probably. Yeah, I feel like I actually I'm so unaware of all German, Polish food. Like, I think I could name.

Three, maybe like sausage, sauerkraut, schnitzel. I think that's all I got. I mean, you got potatoes, you've got beer, you've got sauerkraut, you've got cabbage of all kinds, really. Do you have a favorite German meal? Spätzle, like the little noodles. That's what Leona's making tomorrow with my mom.

Little like hand cut noodles and then, you know, I love a schnitzel, but I don't eat veal anymore, so it's kind of too bad. What what the pasta one you just said, is it literally just noodles or is there like a like a sauce on it or something? Noodles usually put like butter and salt on them and eat it with schnitzel. Oh, okay. It's pretty good.

It's just butter noodles. It's just butter noodles. Okay, I didn't know if it was like a thing. No, it's nothing like that interesting. It's just really good buttered noodles. Great. I like butter. I like noodles.

Me too. So anyway, fun fact for you. So they were preparing their traditional, you know, take on the traditional sauerkraut pork meal for New Year's. And either way, point being the whole family's at home. Okay? What could go wrong? Mary, the mom, said in an interview about Alicia,

who at this point is 13 years old, she had a very sweet soul. She was like a product of Disney. And they say that because when she watched Disney films as a kid, Alicia thought like, this is how real life should be, you know? And so she would- Oh wow. Every time she was happy, she would like sing to her shoes or like to the sun,

or you know, like she was like a little mini Disney princess, just like happy, go lucky. Exactly, like you and Idina. You too. You too. And so that's kind of how she was described, just very kind of, just someone who liked the magic of the world and liked the magic of the world.

And over the years, she kind of retained that optimism in being an upbeat kid, but she was also very introverted. And so as she got older, she got more and more shy. And even though she was a happy kid, she was very introverted to be at home. And her parents were worried about this a little bit. So they tried to encourage her to sign up for things, to build her confidence and expand her social circle.

And one of the things they signed her up for, for example, was a modeling class, which, you know, back then, good times. Barbazon? Barbazon, right? 2002, we like that feels spot on. And so despite their efforts, Alicia was just one of those kids that liked to be alone, you know? And I get it. And so when her parents purchased a computer for the house, it was a gift for her and her brother as kind of a way to have access to the wider world without having to do Barb's one. It was like,

you can go online and learn and do your homework. And Mary, their mom was just really excited to, for their, her kids to have like access to this new technology, you know, for learning, for schoolwork, for pursuing their own interests. But of course we know now, you know, 2002, the internet was relatively new for home use. And I feel like we weren't all prepared for the downsides of the internet at that time. So Alicia's brother was into online role play games like Diablo, and he introduced her to the internet as well. And she found kind of her own niche interests. I mean, speaking of fucking Neopets Taro, right?

Like how... Perfect timing. Right, weird. And she found her own interests online, her own games, and then of course she found chatrooms. So Alicia started hanging out on AIM, on Yahoo Messenger, just in the different forums. And being the early days of the internet, when many parents only had like vague ideas of what being online even meant, there wasn't like that oversight that maybe was needed for kids who didn't realize what they were getting themselves into.

Were you ever in, sorry, were you ever in like just like the public chat rooms on AIM? I was too. It was a lawless land. You know it wasn't AIM though, it was on something else like... Oh really? You know, who were one of those. Like I used AIM for like friend groups but I think I was on something else like oh really? They were one of those like I use a I am for like friend groups But I think I was on some like random game, and I remember like weird shit happening there and being like um I Think it was weird everywhere. I like yeah

I had to be I'm sure it was because there was no fucking was like the Wild West You know like it's like how AI is now like nobody knows what to do because it feels like We don't have any rules yet or any structure. Yeah, I remember, because I feel like there was a few tabs on AM of away message settings, and then there was group groups or some online. I think I just was not interested in that for some reason.

I just wanted to try it, because there was categories. It was video games or movies, and so I would click into into movies and it'd be like, what are you wearing? And I'm like, ah! No, literally, it was just like, wow, you're not safe anywhere, you know? No, no. And so thank God it was at least those obvious ones that we encountered, right? But like, there's so much more sinister stuff out there. So meanwhile, kids were becoming experts on the computer because you're young, you are a quick learner, and suddenly you know how to do code

to make a cool MySpace with pink skulls on it. That's what kids do. So they're chatting with classmates, they're building websites, they're interacting with people from all over the world. And Alicia being introverted, of course, this was the perfect outlet for her. She could meet people that shared interests that maybe weren't fellow Barbizon members,

you know, like people who actually shared, you know, her interests. And she would spend hours on the computer. And she often went went to school exhausted and she would tell her friend she was up all night chatting with her friends online. So you know, this was already becoming a slight problem because her parents didn't realize she wasn't being fully honest with them about how late she was staying up

and that she was losing sleep. And Mary was just happy that her kids seemed to like the computer so much, which is so funny nowadays that it's like, oh, you just want your kid off the tablet, you know? And it's like, she was just so thrilled they liked the top, liked the videos on the internet, you know, I'm like, man, the golden days of just to be young again. Yeah. So anyway, we're back at New Year's Eve. So it's the family and Alicia has an older brother, by the way, who's 10

years older and his girlfriend's over for dinner as well. It's Alicia, her parents, her brother and his girlfriend and her grandmother as well. So when she finished her meal of sauerkraut and sausage she complained of a stomach ache. I wonder why. Imagine why and she asked if she could go lie down for a while before dessert. So her mom's like sure sure lay down we'll call you for a while before dessert. So her mom's like, sure, sure. Lay down. Uh, we'll call you back when dessert's ready. So like 10, 15 minutes later, Alicia's older brother goes up to knock on the

door and say, Hey, dessert's ready. And you know, he's 10 years older. He goes up there, he knocks, and then he calls back down to his mom and says, mom, Alicia's not up here. And his mom was like, well, don't be ridiculous. She just walked up there 10 minutes ago. Where could she be? So she goes up there and she's like totally confounded

by this because she thinks, of course she's up there. It made no sense for her to be anywhere else. She's always at home. She's a homebody and she's just a happy kid at home. And she just went up to her room. Where the hell else would she be? But despite like being so sure of this they walk around and they go oh my god she's not here and they're looking under beds they're looking in closets they're wondering if something if she got hurt somewhere and they cannot understand what is happening until they

notice that the front door was slightly ajar. So are they thinking she just like ran away or that someone came in and took her? So now they don't really know because at first they think like, well, did she just step outside? But then I want to also add it's Pittsburgh, it's January 1st, it's fucking freezing. I mean, they said it's like the pits of winter.

It's ice cold, the sheets of ice outside, it's freezing. Alicia's winter coat and boots are inside and they're going, okay, this was not planned either way. And knowing Alicia, she was terrified of the dark. And actually she wouldn't even go outside to get something from the car unless a parent was watching from the window. Oh shit.

And doesn't this just sometimes make you wonder, like, is there something deep down that... It just feels like such a specific... Well, actually, no. I used to make my mom watch when I got stuff out of the car. So maybe it's not that unreasonable. I feel like it's something so brazen, though, of someone to walk in while the house is full and get away with it. Exactly. So everyone's going, what the hell just happened here? And she didn't scream or anything to... Didn't hear anything.

That's wild. So they're thinking, well, holy shit, it's unimaginable. She would have just wandered out into the snow without her coat, you know, for what? Like what's going on? So Mary called the police and they arrived within minutes. However, they told the family they couldn't report Alicia as a missing person until she was gone for 24 hours. This is a 13-year-old girl. And like, that's not a thing anymore, thank God.

And so her family is like, what? Like, what are we supposed to do then? Just like sit around, right? I guess for the next 22 hours. Terrifying. And they said, the situation's already dire. We promised our 13-year-old girl didn't just wander out without shoes on and is just fine, you know?

Yeah. And she prefers to be at home. She has a happy home life. It just doesn't make sense. And in addition to the coat and shoes, which is already like a huge red flag, she also left her purse with the cash she had just gotten for Christmas. And if it's a 13 a 13 year old girl running away, you're taking it with you

Yeah, your Christmas money. I mean come on Packers your Snackers listen, we know we know all the things Yeah All the things you'd be bringing your post-it note with the password to your Club Penguin account So I'm saying just you never know you never know when you find an internet cafe. You got a log it So her family, of course just stays up all night like just agonizing they can't rest they can't sleep Every passing minute. They're just waiting and hoping like something will happen

But they're like just sitting there waiting so they open all the curtains They turn on every little light in the house like hoping like maybe this will be some sort of beacon to bring her back I they just don't know what to do. And hours passed and her parents eventually called 911 again and this time they demanded action. And the Pittsburgh police decided to enlist the crimes against children task force, which worked with federal agencies like the FBI.

So very quickly it became a much more escalated situation. Okay, good. Yeah, good. So investigators arrived at the home and questioned So very quickly it became a much more escalated situation. Okay, good. Yeah, good. So investigators arrived at the home and questioned everyone individually and they quickly determined Alicia must have been abducted because again, it doesn't really add up any other way. She's clearly not a runaway.

And it's not just the local police anymore saying it, it's the missing children task force saying it. So they know, which has to be fucking terrifying for the parents, but either way, they finally get an answer in that regard. So they start canvassing the neighborhood, the police do, I mean. And as they do this, they realize like,

nobody's seen anything strange. It's a very quiet area. People aren't really like out and about very much. And it's of course, middle of winter. But it's like New Year's Eve. So if someone did go up to- It's New very quiet area. It's people aren't really like out and about very much. And it's of course middle of winter. But it's like New Year's Eve. So if someone did go up to. It's New Year's Day. So it's sorry.

So it's the day. It's the first day of the New Year. So it's kind of like that post New Year's Eve, like just everyone's kind of hibernating almost. Gotcha. I was gonna say, if it was New Year's Eve, like maybe it looked like someone was leaving a party or maybe someone that now on New Year's Day, it looks like someone got hung over and is now leaving a party.

Or that, yeah. And if it's just like a teenage girl, you know, I mean... So it's a really quiet area and there was fresh snow on the ground, so it's like very muffled, you know, you don't really hear anything. And all the neighbors had been inside just having dinner, so nobody really noticed anything. Right. So Mary felt completely helpless, but a friend that she knew put her in touch with the National Center for Missing Children. And the National Center for Missing Children

told Mary that she can actually take action now, before the police, you know, she can take her own action while the police are also doing their investigating. She tells Mary, it's crucial to bring media attention to the case. So get pictures of Alicia's face out there and make sure they circulate in case anyone has seen her since she's been abducted. And they said, odds are somebody has spotted her somewhere if she's been abducted.

So local media jumps on the case. Photos of Alicia are on television, newspapers, missing posters all around town. One reporter on the case later said that missing child cases like Alicia's rarely ended well, and the reporters themselves were like racing for a really dark story to cover. Yeah. But Alicia's family and friends were just optimistic

for their own sanity. They didn't wanna think of the worst case scenario, even though of course that kept popping into their minds. But meanwhile, investigators are fast-tracking this to try to figure out who on earth had the opportunity to abduct Alicia, and of course, they start asking friends and family about Alicia's social life and learn

that a lot of her social life takes place on the World Wide Web. So the task force takes the family computer and they have to imagine read. Thousands of chat chat logs of 13 year old girls, basically. Like, imagine they just have to go through AIM chat history for for hours. Which at least she remembered, like she didn't like delete her history. I don't know if you could AIM chat history for hours. Which at least she remembered, she didn't delete her history or anything. I don't know if you could even delete your history back then.

I don't know if you were able to. I don't remember. I'm sure you probably could. But still, how far back, I guess you just have to start highlighting every single screen name that she talked to and just work backwards. And really get to the bottom of who is it, right?

And the wild thing is that back then it's 2002 They had to print it out because you can Online like there's no iPad like you have to print it like I feel so fucking old I'm like wait what you have to print it out. What did you mean occur to me that to someone and let's say like picked up her The the family home desktop and brought it with them to the office. Oh, they brought the whole thing in and had to print all the logs because you couldn't like print them like what else to do with it. So they literally carried the whole fucking desktop to the police station or

the FBI printed it all out stacks and stacks of just conversation. Um, and so, you know, for the most part, as you can imagine, it's just like 13 year old girl chatter. It's like talking to her friends about boys, like I think so and so is cute, like hee hee, or like, did you do the English homework? You know, just like normal conversations. But when her classmates described the late nights

that Alicia apparently had that her friends were not a part of, like her IRL friends, investigators were like, okay, we can IRL friends, investigators were like, okay, we can at least narrow this down to like between the hours of say 9 p.m. and 2 a.m. Like if this is an overnight thing where she's losing sleep, then we can cut out all the like just school chatter about boys and focus.

The blabber. The blabber. And that's where they discovered Alicia's friendship with a boy she had met over instant messenger. And now of course they're thinking the obvious and the horrible, which is that perhaps she has been groomed by a sexual predator online. And the International Center for Missing and Exploited Children has a definition here of grooming that I'm going to give, especially in this context,

the act of befriending and influencing a child and sometimes the child's family as well for the purpose of preparing the child for sexual activity. This is in the case of exploited children. So the Maryland Coalition Against Sexual Assault describes a process of grooming and also explains that it's essential for the abuser or groomer in this case as well to earn a child's trust and having this ability to identify what the

child needs or desires, like what they feel they're missing. Yeah, like affirmation or love or kind of support. Or anything like that. And then the abuse, it's just so dark, my whole body is covered in chills, it like gives me just dread. The abuser then fulfills this need offering, say, affection, attention, you know,

reassurance, compliments, whatever it is that the child feels like they need to feel cared for and safe. You know, they make the child feel safe, they act as confidants, very supportive, especially with shy kids, socially isolated children. They give them like the space to talk and be themselves. And that can be really, really put a child in a really vulnerable place.

And especially if that child lacks appropriate friendships and is like not really sociable outside the home, then like this online friendship can get deep really fast. And if someone's taking advantage of that, of course, it's no good news. Okay. So one investigator involved in the case said in an interview that there are cases in which online strangers become quote,

almost surrogate parents to these children. Like because they seek out vulnerable kids who feel like they need you know some form of additional affirmation or attention or what have you. Yeah. So this can be especially effective you know if the parents aren't aware of what's going on, if the parents aren't aware of like the online activity, if the kid is like really good at hiding it, if you know whatever the case may be um there are some instances when the parents just don't even realize this is going on.

And it's easier then for these predators to isolate them and separate them from their parents or their family, either physically or even just figuratively by saying, oh, your parents don't understand you and kind of creating that distance between a kid and their actual support system and safety net. Right.

Mary upon finding that this out is of course fucking horrified because like she just bought this computer to help her daughter feel, you know, more alive and safe and like free to be herself. And now it's just backfired. And in 2002, this was like totally brand new. Brand new. In fact, this case actually was the first one,

like the first sensational online abduction case. Oh shit, really? This is kind of the first one that went public. So she had no frame of reference. Like she just thought like, No frame of reference. I'm getting a, but also if it was like a family, if it was a desktop computer, she didn't know that she was getting a, but also if it was like a family,

if it was a desktop computer, she didn't know that she was harming anyone. She thought it was beneficial to the whole family. Probably. Yeah. And they all used it and they used it for homework too and other things. So it was like, it wasn't all bad, right? It's just like, the one person got in.

Up until that point, it was, it was just a machine. You just bought a machine to be, to add function to the family. No one ever thought machines would lead to kidnappings. Yeah, there was no way to know, and there was no way to know how safe the internet really was or how unsafe it was. And 2002, they were starting to bring safety because, of course, the FBI is aware because they've seen it all, but at the time, like, the public just didn't realize. And so, in schools back in 2002,

people were starting to talk about, like, online safety, but it wasn't really as urgent, you know, or as, like, well, like, as thorough, perhaps, as it is today. So she never imagined that, like, she had put her child in danger. So she's, of course, agonizing over that on top of everything else.

And Mary later said, you're victimized in a way in which you have absolutely no defense, which is just horrifying. So in 2002, you know, in addition to all the other stuff we've discussed, it was also easier to be anonymous online because technology just wasn't caught up or tracking people the way it does now. So people didn't quite know at first who this could be. Like it could be anyone from anywhere. But all they knew was it looked really bleak. And this is usually one of those stories where things just don't end well. So everyone was kind of bracing for impact. Then a call came into the FBI

and an anonymous tipster told the authorities he believed he had seen Alicia. Oh shit, okay. And they're thinking, okay, well, go on, you know, see if this is just a prank call or something real or just a mistaken identity. The man explained he's a member of a chat room where adults engaged in discussions about their romantic and sexual fantasies.

And by the way that he was talking, he was so nervous and fearful and agitated that the person who picked up the phone realized this is a real tip, I think. He at least believes this isn't a fraud like, this is a real tip, I think. He at least believes what is isn't a fraudster, like, this is a real deal. And also, back in 2002, it was also, like, embarrassing to talk about sexual whatever.

Exactly. And so that's exactly why this guy was totally on edge, freaked out. He said he's in this group. He... Spoiler alert, he's calling from a payphone. Like, that's how freaked out he is about, like, anyone finding out about this, you know? I mean, think about it like you have a family and kids, you feel like you want to say something, but you don't want to get caught up in the story of a teenager gone missing, you know? It's just...

And also like in 2002, like maybe that looked like cheating in his family, like even being in a chat group about that. Exactly, like maybe you don't want your family to know, you know, maybe you just don't want that part of you to be known by anybody. But he felt like he had to say something because he said he sometimes spoke with another user on there who described their desire

to keep a teenage girl captive as a sex slave. And for the anonymous caller, it was all role play and talk and like just talking about your fantasies and this wasn't real But the other user had recently messaged him and said hey, I've finally fulfilled my fantasy Oh fuck and the guy was like, oh no, that guy was for real Like I thought he was just kind of telling me about his wild imagination, but this is apparently something he took too far. So the person who messaged this anonymous caller, the guy he talked to sometime said, I finally fulfilled my fantasy. I've abducted

a young teenager. And then they sent this caller a video of a girl in a cage. Oh my God. And the caller, who's like totally beside himself at this point, says she was crying in this cage, she's not wearing any clothes, it's clear she's being physically abused, also sexually abused, and he said, I recognized her as Alicia from the photos on the news. Oh my God. And so the investigator is pressing immediately for more information.

I think they had him on the call for like two hours or something for like a long time. But when they said you have to meet up with the FBI in Florida, the guy freaked out and was like, I won't I don't want to do that and hung up. And he like I said, was calling from a payphone. He didn't want to be in legal trouble for his participation. He didn't know what that would look like. So it is. Well, yeah, that's scary. And also, by the way, two hours on a payphone,

imagine if you just ran out of dimes. Well, good point. That would have been a great excuse, though, I don't have any more coins. Do you think the FBI has a special, we'll just keep adding nickels from our end. Oh, I wonder. They should have. They have to print out the chat logs. There is no way they could hack a phone

Bluetooth I'm like maybe they have like a fucking e for the crypto account. No Well, I mean I'm And also the the guy's sending like the video that also goes to show you how dated this information is because like the video that also goes to show you how dated this information is because you could get away with sending a video maybe back then. To a stranger? Like this other person is just someone

you chat with sometimes. It's not like even somebody you can trust with information like that. I mean, I'm glad he sent it because it cleared this. I'm glad he was technologically illiterate. Stupid, right? Well, get ready, you're not gonna believe. Oh my God, oh my God, speaking of technologically illiterate.

So he hangs up. The authorities trace the phone to a payphone in Tampa, Florida. Now if the caller described the situation accurately, Alicia was in a very, very, very dire situation. And most abductees did not survive this. And it's been days. So who knows if she's even still alive. I mean, it feels like a criminal minds episode, honestly, like this race to the...

A literal cage, yeah. A literal cage, like the whole, the chat rooms, like it all feels very criminal minds. So luckily the man, this guy, they couldn't, they couldn't get back in touch with him. They just had no idea because of the pay phone thing. But the man, I guess his guilt got the better of him and he reconsidered and he called the FBI again. Oh my God. He had more dimes all of a sudden.

Okay, I'm realizing this was a two hour phone call because the first one he hung up before, they were able to keep him on the line long enough to trace a call. I don't know how long it was, but this one was the one where they convinced him to talk for several hours. So I apologize. Yeah. I think he probably had more Nichols this time, or maybe they left him like a discrete pile of Nichols in the phone booth for him to use for this purpose. Maybe so. But either way, he called again. Agent spoke with him for several hours trying to convince him to overcome this fear or whatever

of embarrassment to save this little girl's life. And apparently the FBI even said at one point, like, you know, you, cause he had a daughter and they were like, just, they were like, we hate to say this, but like think of your daughter, this is someone's daughter and you're about to save her life. Does it really matter that you'll be embarrassed? And while they spoke, they traced the call and FBI agents in Florida went to the man's residence because he was no longer calling from a payphone. He had been calling from his house and now he was really on the hook to give them information because they knew where he was and they were there too.

And they said, okay, what can you give us? And he said, all I have, the only identifying information I have is a screen name for this guy. And this is where I tell you this fucking freakaks screening. Master for teen slave girls at yahoo.com. Wow, so you're right. Totally, it's just like technologically, just. Fucking insane to me. No, no secrecy. No shame, nothing, just like, God damn, I mean people still never fail

to surprise me. Okay, so the FBI, now this is a bit controversial because, well it's about the Patriot Act, but the FBI was able to use the Patriot Act to access this guy's information really quickly without a subpoena. And that's because post 9-11, remember this is 2002, post 9-11, you know, the Patriot Act was enacted

and it essentially allowed the US government to much more broadly survey the nation and its citizens. Everything from like medical history, even what books you check out from libraries, you know, phone calls, internet, financial records. And so it gave a lot of access, and of course, a lot of organizations, watchdog organizations, things like that.

The ACLU condemned the Patriot Act as infringing on people's amendments. And so it was very controversial especially then because it was pretty brand new. It was new, yeah. Yeah, very new and very like, what's the word when there's not a precedent, like unprecedented.

And so, you know, for what it's worth, it served good this time around, and they were able to access this guy's information very quickly. And while Yahoo was generally required by law to protect its users' data, the Patriot Act kind of leapfrogged over that, and they were basically given emergency access to otherwise private information. And this emergency access was an IP address associated with a 38-year-old man named Scott Tyree of Herndon, Virginia.

Is that how you say that? Yep. So they did a background check and revealed that he worked as a government contractor computer analyst. Of course. He needs to take another class about being more discreet with your fucking email. Dummy, dummy about an analyst.

Just for real. He was twice divorced with shared custody of his 12 year old daughter. Oh my God. So there were times that his 12 year old daughter was alone with him too. Oh yeah. She primarily lived with her mother but according to one source Scott's daughter stayed with him over the holiday break that year and had only returned to her mom on January 1st. The day that this guy is now picking up another girl on Pittsburgh.

And I don't believe there's ever been an accusation that he did this to his own daughter, did anything untoward to his own daughter. I think a lot of times that's just not how that works. But the fact that hours after his own 12-year-old daughter left, he brought in, he abducted a 13-year-old girl. It's like he couldn't wait to have access to another kid. Sick.

Sick. Just to be near another kid. Sick, yeah, yeah. So investigators called Alicia's family and asked them to come to the office to talk. I mean, imagine finding your dad's email and it's a master for teen sex slaves and it's like, I'm a teenage girl. You know what I mean? Like that must just be so fucking... I mean, luckily, I mean, it sucks that she was like,

literally the age demographic he was clearly going after. But like it, luckily she was probably too young at that time, but if he wasn't doing anything to her, she probably has no idea until later. I hope. I can only, right? Like you can only hope. Because if it's shared custody, clearly like... He must have been a little weird around her, right? Like, oh, how are your friends even worrying just about her friends?

I mean, if your email is that fucking obvious, I would think you're probably kind of a creep, right? Like why else would you make that your email? And if you have these inclinations, you're obviously a creep. So I don't know, it's like, you're more than a creep, but you know what I'm saying, like in social situations. But I don't know, some people are really smooth, you know? He talked this young girl into thinking he was

really special and important and cared about her, right? So like, maybe he had some way with words or who knows. He's a predator, right? So investigators called Alicia's family. Oh my God, imagine. And said, we have to tell you something and it's not great. Mary didn't know what to expect.

She didn't know if she was going to identify her own daughter's body at the police at the morgue, or if she was going to hear about her daughter's death, or who knows? The last, I mean, you can't even conjure up thinking that she was in a cage. Like you can't even. Yeah, sick.

That's certainly not like worse than finding out your daughter died or something, but that's on a level that. Right, it's like something that you wouldn't even comprehend, right? Yeah. Like that's just nuts. And the investigators, for their part,

they didn't know what to expect either, but they wanted the family to be with them as this got figured out, because suddenly things were rapidly progressing and they didn't want the family out there hearing information from someone else, or who knows, or being in danger, they basically bring them in and say like, here's what's going on,

we're doing this now. So as soon as the FBI had search warrants in hand, one team arrested Scott at work while a second team raided his home in search of Alicia. Good. Now, it's just so chilling. They rush into the home, they're calling out for Alicia, there's no answer.

The first floor appeared completely average, of course, just like a normal house, but there's a padlock door. And when you open that bad boy up, they discover a basement, which actually appears to be reconstructed into a dungeon meant for BDSM activity. However, of course, BDSM is consensual, or implies consensual activities. So if this were the home of Alicia's abductor,

that's not BDSM, just to be very clear here with my words. So that being said, they find all these things that point to like, oh, BDSM and like sex role play. And this guy has this crazy email. So they're thinking, uh-oh, this, I think we're really onto it here. So, they move from room to room and in one of the rooms they find an empty cage.

And in this cage are instruments which were later described as tools used for torture and the room was empty and there's this like sudden dread that we're not gonna find her alive it's too late we're too late then an agent from upstairs shouts out that there is movement under one of the beds and they order whoever it is to come out with their hands up and Alicia 13 years old crawls out from under the bed with a collar on her neck mmm she's chained to the floor oh my god she is undressed and she's trying to crawl out, cover herself, and also do the hands

up command. Oh my god. Because they're screaming hands up and she's just a little kid. And so of course the team is like rushes over, put a jacket on her, they cut off the collar, they tell her she's safe, you know, they're, you know, she's probably so shell shocked. I don't even know what you'd be thinking at this point. Um, but she went into productive custody and stayed with a family that this broke my heart. She said they were so kind that it made her sad because she felt like

she'd never feel that sort of happiness again. Oh my God. And it's like 13 year olds even have that thought is like, it's just shouldn't be, so not right. So she waited all night for her parents to arrive in Virginia because you know, they're up in Pittsburgh and they're terrified and she's terrified that they're angry at her. Cause she's again, a little kid,

she thinks like she broke the rules and she's like, they're never gonna forgive me, I'm gonna be in huge trouble. But in reality, her family, there was so much media attention that her family's flights kept getting delayed and they couldn't get on the plane. And so they had to access a private plane somehow

to get to Virginia. And by the time they get there and Alicia's reunited with them, Alicia realized like as soon as her dad picked her up that she was finally, finally safe. And Mary said, Alicia was standing there and she was so beautiful. It was as if they had brought somebody back from the dead

because she's just been bracing herself for the worst for identifying a body, you know? And suddenly like her daughter's just standing there. And Alicia went on to describe what had happened to her. So on January 1st, she was messaging Scott from her room after dinner, right? And she agreed to meet outside for a moment. He said, I'm in your area.

Can I just meet you outside real quick to say hi? Scott had been grooming her for eight or nine months. He initially had introduced himself to her as a boy her age. Of course. And had met him through a girl named Christine, who actually also turned out to be an adult man posing as a child. Oh my god. So that night, Alicia walked outside briefly and even left the door open on purpose,

because she was literally just going to be like, hi, and wave and come back in. When he ran her. because she was literally just gonna be like, hi, and wave and come back in. Mm-hmm. When he grabbed her. Yeah, she walks down the street very briefly. It's so cold and quiet that she suddenly feels like, I've made a huge mistake. I'm in danger. And she said it just like hit her

that she's made a huge mistake. So she turns around, but then she hears Scott, and it's, and he calls her name, and she says the PTSD has caused these he calls her name and she says the PTSD has caused these gaps in her memory that she really cannot fill but what she does remember is that after Scott called her name she remembers being in his car and him gripping her hand so tight she thought he would break her hand but the bones in her hand Scott told her if she didn't stay quiet he would put her hand, the bones in her hand. Scott told her if she didn't stay quiet,

he would put her in the trunk. And to Alicia, she was still a kid, she had seen like TV shows where people are in the trunk and she thought that meant he will put my body in the trunk, not like me alive. So she thought like he was trying to kill her. So she was like, I'm gonna be quiet and obey. So they drove for hours.

And when they went through toll booths, Alicia just begged that somebody in the toll booth would like notice her crying in the back seat. She said, somebody has to see me crying back here, but nobody picked up on it. When they arrived at Scott's home, he took Alicia to the basement where he put a collar on her neck. He then proceeded to attack and rape her for four days. Oh my God.

At one point during an attack, Alicia struggled back and he broke her nose in the struggle. And she decided at that point that the best way to protect herself was to stop fighting back. And because Scott treated her like an object, she tried to appeal to his sympathy and tried to kind of make him see her as a person. And it got to the point where this was almost working, but she realized like,

it might have worked too well because on the final morning of her captivity, but she didn't know this was the final morning of her captivity, final morning of her captivity, Scott fed Alicia for the first time since her abduction. Oh my god. Then he said, I'm starting to like you too much, so we're going for a drive tonight. Oh shit, so he would have killed her. And she knew at that point he's going to kill me tonight. So when the FBI broke in that evening, she thought Scott had sent someone to kill her,

because she heard someone break the door down. Oh, that's why she was so scared when they showed up. And she was hiding because she thought it was a fucking hitman, like somebody sent to kill her. And it turns out Alicia was discovered and rescued less than 30 minutes, less than half an hour before Scott was due home from work and was going to take her for a drive. Oh my God.

Like, fewer than 30 minutes. Like in this circumstance, I don't wanna say she's so lucky, but like, in that one moment? It's almost like, it's just like a very, like, thank... Thank someone for at least that instant. In March of 2003, Scott pleaded guilty to multiple counts, including kidnapping and sexual exploitation of a minor. Alicia gave a witness statement and he was sentenced to 19 years in federal prison. However, he was granted early release in 2019 and Alicia,

nor her family, neither were notified. A reporter contacted Alicia and asked if she knew about Scott's release and that he had been released to a residential center, more commonly referred to as a halfway home, where people released from prison often live to transition back into unincarcerated life. And although Scott spent his prison sentence in North Carolina, the reentry center where he was released happened to be located in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Oh.

And then no one told her. Just so happened to be a couple miles away but nobody bothered to let her know. That's so fucked up. Nobody bothered to let her mom know or her know or anybody know. That's a lawsuit. That has to be a lawsuit, right? Well, outraged, Alicia and her family petitioned the court

to force Scott to relocate away from their fucking home. And in the end, Scott ended up violating his parole anyway by visiting pornographic websites. So he was sent to prison for two more years. Fucking, whatever. Almost immediately following her rescue, Alicia became an advocate for children's online safety. I just imagine she has probably saved so many lives

and I don't know, I just, I can only imagine. She worked to pass laws which allocate funds to missing and exploited children. She's a speaker, she educates children and parents about the dangers of being online. And she said when she was a child, children didn't need the internet quite as much as they do today.

Today it's tied into education, it's tied into just everyday life, everyday communication. And so her big goal is to make kids feel responsible for their own online safety, rather than parents feeling like they have to monitor everything. Almost giving kids the tools to recognize unsafe situations and realize that they could be targeted

if by somebody who shows red flags or what have you. Like a dare program before online. Yeah, exactly, exactly. So when Alicia was abducted, like I sort of mentioned, it was the first highly publicized case of like an online groomer kidnapping a child. And this concept of course blew up and this became like this huge sensationalized thing

of like, oh, nobody wants this to happen to their kids. And like, nobody believes it could happen to their kids. But then suddenly there are all these rules about being online and you know, people started blaming Alicia Alicia saying well, she shouldn't have talked to somebody Of course. You know, of course immediate victim blaming People have been dismissive of Alicia's experience saying like oh my gosh It could have been worse like you could have been killed or you were rescued in four days

Like at least it was only four days, you know But she's like fuck, just fuck you big time. Alicia teaches in her talks that trauma cannot be measured by time, which I find to be very interesting. I mean, for Watesworth, four days is a long fucking time, Alicia, but I do appreciate your sentiment that like, yeah, yes, that yeah, trauma, I do agree, it cannot be measured by time.

And so she focuses on the impact that an experience has you know our trauma is relative Regardless of how long they lasted so in the years following her experience Alicia found that mental health professionals were often Unequipped to address her kind of trauma so she actually became compelled to study psychology and eventually earned an MA in Forensic psychology in Chicago to just better understand how to cope with other kids who go through something like this. And she works for now the, she worked for a while actually for the International Center

for Missing and Exploited Children. Wow, good for her. Yeah, and she worked actually as their director of outreach and global impact and has taught countless courses for professionals, children, teachers, parents on internet safety and child exploitation and she continues that work to this very day. So that's the story of Alisha Kozakevich. Wow. Okay, well sounds like it, she, you know,

has an interesting life after the fact. I mean, seriously, like what a... It worked out, saves people for a living now. It's just like no big deal. No big deal. Wow, good for her. That's still a terrible story. I didn't know that was the first online whatever. I remember the vague like, you know,

tabloid covers or magazine covers that were like the dangers of whatever you know kids abducted in plain sight but I like I'm sure I certainly was not reading that as a kid so yeah I wasn't either but I now one of my like quote comfort shows whatever is um oh I know it's a catcher it's a catcher predator but But some of the earlier segments they did, they even interviewed children in it and said, what have people said to you online, blah, blah, blah. And the kids were saying it in front of their parents,

and the parents were like, they said that to you. The parents are just so clueless as to what's out there. And so there's, you know, there was only one way to find out and it was unfortunately. We're all learning, right? Yeah. Holy, well, good story, Christine.

Yeah, thank you. Be safe out there, folks, okay? Yeah, no chat rooms. Red flags are, just trust your gut. Trust your gut. And we can go do some tarot cards now? Please, I would love that.

Alright everyone, please come see our live show, especially in Monterey, San Luis Obispo, on March 14th and 15th. And go check out our books, go find us on Patreon if you want to hear us do a Yappy Hour. Yeah. Et cetera. Or do whatever you want. Or do whatever you want. Yeah, as Christine says, nothing's real. Nothing matters. Nothing's real. And why we drink.