And That's Why We Drink - E423 Baby Cobra Podcasting and a Goblin Grandfather

Episode Date: March 16, 2025

It’s Episode 423 and we’re coming to you live through our gamboozler bamdoozit who-whatsit. This week Em brings us another multi-parter with the wild story of the exorcisms of Nicola Aubry aka the Miracle of Laon. Then Christine covers the red flag filled case of Deorr Kunz Jr, an unsolved missing child case from 2012. And does anyone know what the half life of holy water is? …and that’s why we drink! P.S. We promise Billie-Jo Jenkins Pt. 2 will be coming next week so stay tuned! For a list of resources or ways to help those affected by the fires in Los Angeles visit: bit.ly/atwwdfirehelp ! The Pour Decisions Tour is back on the road! Get your tickets today at andthatswhywedrink.com/live ! ______________________ Sign up for a free 30-day trial at http://audible.com/DRINK Pick up GOODLES on your next shopping trip... it’s available nationwide at major grocery stores and retailers. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to RocketMoney.com/drink today. Pretty Litter helps keep your house smelling fresh and clean. Save 20% on your first order and get a free cat toy with code ATWWD at PrettyLitter.com/atwwd Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

There are so many perks to working in audio, having a microphone and being able to say whatever you want, riffing, you know, bantering with each other. It's just a dream. It's my dream. If you're doing what you love to do, there's nothing better than being surrounded by people who love it as much as you do. And if you own your own business, you want to hire employees who love what they do to boost the overall success of your business. Plus make it a pretty great place to work. But how do you find passionate employees who are good fit for all of your roles? ZipRecruiter.

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So all of a sudden, my sad true crime story just eclipsed you. And I couldn't figure out how to find you. It often does. That's OK. Wait a minute. That was so deep. And you know, my dark stories often eclipse you in the. Wow. Thank you. It's really heavy. I'd say let's write a book we've already written too so yeah i've been there done that thanks anyway so let's just let's land on that

one poignant line and then and then not say anything right let's quit while we're ahead you know what i'm saying so i just want to quick quickly say i'm sorry that i'm in my bed again i feel like this is very inappropriate like not but I think it's very unprofessional. And I've realized why I keep doing this. Like at first, the first couple times it was because I wasn't feeling great. But now it's because upstairs in my office, I mean I love my sister so much. She came to help me clean up up there and of course we only had a few hours and then it got half done you know and so now my office is like this Clusterfuck it looks like a disaster zone and I I've tried sitting in there and I my allergies are so bad

That if I'm up there for more than two hours, I've been waking up every morning going oh my god I'm getting sick, and it's just cuz I've been in that room really yeah Because I'm it's just so cluttered that there's no chance to like and it's the only like place in the house that has carpeting. So like you really have to vacuum it. Anyway, commit point being I'm in my bed because it's cleaner and less dusty than my office barely probably. But, you know, it does the trick.

So I do apologize that I'm like always here. I'm trying to set it up a little more professionally. So we're at least a less a little less wobbly. But yeah, I don't think that'm like always here. I'm trying to set it up a little more professionally so we're at least a little less wobbly. Yeah, I don't think that's unprofessional. I think people know what they're getting from us at this point. Okay, good. I mean, I was just saying, like we used to, well, I was actually looking for a loaf of bread

to balance my microphone, because we used to do that for our live streams. We'd find like cookbooks and loaves of bread and a box of wine and stack all the laptop on it. So well, if I could just lie on my tummy and kick my feet in the air, like we're just gabbing that would be how I record. Yeah. So we probably could, we could set it.

Well, actually we'd get our backs to her so fast. Yeah. It would be fun for five minutes. Then everyone would hear it go, we'd have to roll over and it would just be a lot of grunting. And only on my left side because of my heartburn. Yeah, so all of a sudden it's not so cute and youthful. But see, it has to be my left side too, because of my-

So we can spoon. But the problem would be we'd probably run into one another. And then it would become a whole Abbott and Costello bit. And it would be like- It'd be beautiful. And Emmett and Christina bit. And it would just be like, this is not what we're supposed to be doing here.

We're supposed to be serious journalists. I, you know, I don't know. Well, let's see if if the opportunity arises, I'm not going to say no to that. I'm certainly not going to say no either. Absolutely. We just need like a really long swinging robotic arm where like we just pass to each other. Oh, perfect. Pass what? Pass the microphone.

Oh. Like it's just swinging over us like it's like a piece of medical equipment and we're on the table, you know, like if we're lying in bed. I'm so glad you're not a doctor. I'm just gonna say that real quick. I'm also glad. You know, like at the dentist, like the thing moves around on a whole arm. Yeah, but nobody's like borrowing it from each other I don't know I also remember we've tried

recording with one microphone and we talk over each other so much that it's just not possible you can't share one I don't think we've learned either I think it would still be oh it would be a disaster if we had to share one microphone it would sit those old-timey ones that come down from the ceiling and they have like the silver on both sides? And so then you're talking to one side, I'm talking to the other side. I like what you're saying, Kristen. And we're just like looking into one another's lives. But then we're kind of doing baby cover the whole time.

I think we need a microphone that's like a gyroscope, so however we we're lying it knows to always sway with us. So it would be sort of like one of Dr. Seuss Geisel's cartoons from The Grinchy Soul Christmas where it's like a gambusler and a banduse and a who-whats-it and it would just kind of contort to your body so you could talk. Verbatim that was the sentence that was in my head yeah. Good okay because I yeah I've been practicing my psychic abilities. They're getting really good. You got kombuzle kombucha or whatever you said really fast. So I feel like the Lorax coming back to Thomas, I feel like the Lorax does have one of those like two microphones. You know how he talks through it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He is what that is. Um, you're maybe on, I didn't know he was a podcaster, but that was just a secret he was never willing to

be. Are we okay? I do. Hey, don't ask me that in public. Sometimes I feel like I'm really, I feel like you and I are saying something that makes full sense. And then I remember other people that's what my brother and I do. And people are like, I instantly recognized that they were siblings because they speak in a way that like you're sort of like like you should put away somewhere I'm talking about it's like how did you follow that person strain of thought but I do feel like we've gotten to sibling Telepathy vibes, you know what I mean at this point in the game. That's nice. Yeah, I know I'll take that I'm just I just feel sorry for everyone else who doesn't know what we're talking about. I do pity all of them Just fast forward. Well, eventually we'll start making sense Christine why do you what do you drink and why do you drink? Well, I actually of course, let me pick from one of my four beverages

That were on the floor like a dirty bottle or something on the floor With whatever I dropped earlier of that tissue box holder thing. Here's my water bottle. I'm just drinking out of my beautiful handy dandy standily. It is handy for sure. It's pretty darn handy and I will say that I'm drinking because why am I drinking? Oh I got my research done early for once. Wow, great job. Thank you so much. And last night I was like up at like 930 and I was like, ooh, it's still early.

Like I can do some, you know, fun stuff. So I went on to fun stuff. I went on to newspapers.com and I just kind of started like perusing and I was bopping around like my neighborhood and I just found some just gems of Like I was laughing so hard. I had to like silent laugh because blaze was asleep But as I was doing that and then of course today I opened my laptop and all the tabs are still there and I was Like just one quick peek and then all of a sudden I'm like following some Like sometimes I get emails.

I'm sure you do, too, where it's like there's been a hit on like, yes, Elder Hinks. And I'm like, who the fuck is Elder Hinks? But at some point, I set up an alert for her because she was so important to whatever like venture I was on. Well, also, if you're on Ancestry specific, I don't know if it's the same on newspapers, but on Ancestry, you don't even have to sign up.

They just immediately if you add them to the tree, then it's just you immediately get notifications. And my tree has a thousand people on it. Okay. So I get like probably 70 hits a day on in my emails of like, and they're all names. I've forgotten how they're connected to each other. So yeah, it's not like your cousin. It's like some distant. But did you, did you ever figure out who she was? Oh, so I, well, I was looking through, um, wait, who? The, the Hinks or

like, did you? Oh, no, sorry. That was just an example. Like, as I was just saying, like I was so, I get so invested that like, sometimes I'll get emails that are like random people from 1825 and I'm like, I have no idea. Like like random people from 1825 and I'm like I have no idea like and it's never related to me it's like something about my house or so anyway point being I was like oh I'm in one of those rabbit holes again and I usually do this and never really find anything new and I found something new. What did you find? I found a lot of new things I realized that I wasn't searching so I was searching in I realized that I wasn't searching. So I was searching in my county,

but I wasn't searching in the neighboring county, which I guess I know, I know. Well, it doesn't whatever long story. And so I started searching the neighboring county because they had a much more thorough like newspaper going on about the whole area. And so I found out that indeed, this place next to me was a dentist office. And I now have the name of the dentist. Hell yeah. I know.

And so I was like, I have to record the podcast. So I stopped that for a while. I hate that feeling. I know, but it was at least something else enjoy. It wasn't like, okay, I have to go to bed because I just never would have gone to bed. At least this was like, okay, I'll pause to tell Em all about it.

And then afterward I'll go back to it. But yeah, maybe on the Yap, yeah, or something. Oh, no, I know what else on the Yap, yeah, I found this and I forgot. I think this is what we were talking about that one time that I wanted to show. And this is full of daguerreotypes, really, really old pictures. It's a creepy briefcase that looks like it's from like Severance or something. It looks like it's like some shady uncle's doctor's briefcase or something. Right, exactly. It looks like I

found it in the dentist's office. What did you call that? A daguerreotype? Oh, a daguerreotype. It's like those, well I'll give you one little hint. Uh huh. Because I want to save the rest for Patreon. Oh okay. I'll give them a little spoiler. Okay just a teensy piece. Just a little tease. That's a pretty good tease. Okay.

Oh my god. Ah sorry. My god. Wow. There she is. Oh, my God. Oh, sorry. My God. Wow. Yeah. Oh, there she is. In all her glory. I got to tell you, I when we were one of our oh, when I was in must have been Cincinnati or somewhere. It was on our last on our last leg. I found a

like a oddity shop. So maybe it was Cleveland, but I found an oddity shop. So maybe it was Cleveland, but I found an oddity shop full of pictures like that. And I thought that you would really like them. There was- Oh, let me know if you remember the name. I think they're what gave me pink eye. I think cause I didn't touch my eye.

What they gave you pink eye? I feel like I can't think of a dirtier thing I touched that day. And then I rubbed my eye. So I feel like- So you basically put like cholera or like consumption in your own eye yeah well it's called conjunctivitis it's pretty close to consumption I would say it certainly felt bad but no I just want to say someone died of consumption in the

dentist office when it was converted after it was converted to a house I found out somebody did die in that building. Shut up. Of consumption, it said. A woman. And it was a house? And it was a house? Yeah, so it was a dentist's office originally, and then people lived in it for a while, for like a few decades, and then it just became dilapidated. Did you find any pictures of the front of the dentist's office? Could you recreate like the

sign or something and like have a little homage? You know what that that's exactly what I was thinking because also I found out that one guy who lived here had a grocery store up on the main street and so I was gonna go look for like advertisements yeah like from old newspapers and like maybe frame them in the house like yeah because the guy lived here and ran the grocery store down the street. That's so smart. Oh, no, sorry. He had a cafe. That's what it was. He had a cafe. And so I was like, Oh, I want to find like an old menu or like a, yeah.

And so I feel like I, you know what I was meant to say. I meant to say when you asked why I drank, I meant to say I've cacked. That's not what I meant to say. You what? I actually said I've cacked. That's not what I meant to say. You what? What'd you say? I actually said I've cacked. That's not what I meant to say. I would have meant to say is I've cracked the case wide open. Of course. Cause now I know so much more.

I figured out like new ways to search and stuff. And I found out like that the guy who lived here had that cafe and I found out where the cafe is and now it's a dog grooming shop. Oh cool. Yeah so I was like maybe I go in there and say like, hey. Hey. Just look in the walls for a minute. I always hate when I get into a spiral

and research a place I have no fucking attachment to and then I like have no good reason to go approach it. Then you're like, okay I did it. Other than I think I was manic for a second. Exactly, exactly. It's like I got the dopamine, but there's not really a reward at the end. Like I already used it up.

And that's why I'm so excited about this. Like you said, it would be so cool to like have like an original old sign of the guy. I mean, I know his full name and everything. I could put like a little sign. What was the year that it was a dentist office? Since you want to say that. 1905.

1905. I feel like you could go to a thrift store and they probably have something of his. I mean, we have literally like 40 antique stores right here. I bet you you're right. I bet you I could just dig through like old newspaper clippings from in there. Just storage. I think you would just need one good ADHD night. I feel like I would like, I don't know. I don't know what I would do.

I would get really nutty with it. So I'm very excited for you. So thank you. This all happened this morning. You know, I didn't shower, but I did do that. I would have asked to cancel a recording. I would have been like, I'm in a fix. Well, the only reason I didn't, I think,

is because I did so much last night that I was like, all right, I really gotta like chill for a sec. And so I did. But thank you for asking. That's why I drink. And on Yappy Hour, we can either talk about that if you want, or we can talk about the Garo types. I have a few more. Or whatever you want. I would like to see those. Cool. Why do you drink, my friend? I drink a London Fog, per usual. And I drink... Oh, if you all went to our Yappy Hour last week, you know that we read tarot cards. If you all went there when we did our big...

When you hopped on over. Hopped on over. You know that we did tarot cards. Oh yes. And remember I got, I mixed up sort of, what is it, eight of swords with eight of cups or something? I don't remember. Well, I was reading the wrong

section. I picked one and one of them said friendship and reunion and I was like oh it's kind of weird I don't know what that's about and it didn't make sense either because I was reading the wrong fucking card. But it occurred to me later that this whole weekend my friend from college came into town and we like hung out and on top of that this is the extra weird part is that she said that she was pulling tarot cards she fucking pulled the eight of cups and she did not know about our conversation either no see that's the cool part I love when that happens so I accidentally read a different prediction which worked out

very well yeah I love when that happens and you're like, you're like, I don't even know what this means. Oh, well. And then the next day you're like, duh, or something. Well, also, it wasn't even my card. I was just reading the wrong part of the booklet. But oh, I see. Okay. Yeah. But it's like, it's just like, what are the odds that the part that I accidentally read? Oh, that you and it was like, you read the card that your friend pulled to. Almost. Yeah.

It's like, yeah. So it's like, yeah, are you like, yeah, that's cute. And then while she was here, we were talking about like people we don't talk to from college anymore. Which friend was it again? I'm sorry. Twin.

That's what I thought, okay. And we were talking about people that we haven't talked to from college anymore in a while. And we decided in the middle of the night to just like randomly text all of them and say hi. And so I ended up literally having a lot of reunions with friends that became a whole Isn't that weird? That's a real thing. Wow. Yeah, so I had multiple reunions with friends. Love that Yeah, anyway, I thought that was really neat. So so cool. See I love tarot like it feels like it's kind of just random

But then it actually does really weave into your life. It's pretty cool. Yeah, it felt like I maybe picked the wrong card, but I flipped to the right page of the book. Yeah, it's like, yeah, your soul is like, your hands are all fumbly around. We don't trust them. Just give me the booklet. Anyway, so yeah, I had a weekend with her and it was very nice.

Was it good? It was, I thought we were gonna do more, but I always feel bad when people come to town and I don't like give them like a time in Hollywood. You know, she just wanted to rot. It was very lovely. I love that. That's the best kind of guess. So she literally, we have like a fold out couch and she, I don't think left the couch once when she was around. What a dream. But she's been, she also does jujitsu. I know Blaze does jujitsu.

Oh, yeah. And without even asking if I wanted to be a part of that, she decided she was like, oh, can you get on the floor real quick? And just threw me, like just flipped me like it was nothing. It's, don't ever let, oh shit. You just said that out loud on a thing

that Blaze can listen to and he's gonna be like, Em's gonna watch what, Em's gonna love what I have planned. Like, I'll flip them the other direction. It was really, it was out of nowhere. And it's not that I didn't think she could do it because she was so confident in it, but we are definitely different sizes. And she, with ease, just went, boop, and I was just on the fucking ground. It was crazy.

Holy smokes. Anyway, that was my weekend. I got thrown around. Which one do you think that was? Like the ace of swords? Oh. Something where stabbing, oh, the three of swords where it's just-

Felt like I was the fool. Felt like- Oh, the fool, actually. Spot on, yeah. Anyway, so she hung out. We didn't really do too much. It was just like a relaxing weekend. I felt bad that she flew across the country for a weekend

and like didn't do much. But sometimes you need that, you know? You just need some time to I guess that's how it goes. I'm with your friend. When I fly across the country to see you, it's like just kind of a ghost Avengers marathon. I just like never make plans

because I'm like, I don't know, if you want to see the museum, we can do that or the aquarium, but most people don't really care unless they have kids. So I'm like, let's just eat my favorite foods and that'll be my introduction to the town. Perfect. Anyway, so that was very lovely.

I ended up being affirmed in a weird way with the tarot from last week. Oh, I started writing a little grid for you by the way. Is the one I, sorry for myself too, but like a grid of like the Tarot oh thank you numbers and because I was looking for mine to send you that I had downloaded and I realized it wasn't quite as like succinct as I had remembered it being so I'm trying to kind of make it more hopefully because

our brains work in this sick way we just discussed hopefully the way I do it to make sense to me will hopefully make sense to you. If not, we can tweak it. I only want a version of it that you created 3 a.m. though otherwise I won't understand. Oh well I barely recall what it is that I was typing or writing and what like what location and a physical notebook, a computer, nobody knows. I'll find it eventually. It sounds deranged which means it will work perfectly. Thank you. You get it. I just really have never understood the concept of doing something on time and well, because somehow it doesn't turn out the same. It doesn't,

it doesn't have the X factor. Like you don't need that methodical approach necessarily. You can be methodical, but like fucking swift about it. You know what I mean? It was so, um, it definitely turned me the wrong way, but in college, anytime I wrote a paper, if I did it early, I always got a worse grade than if I just procrastinated and like got real creative with it. It's a curse because it's like more miserable.

Yeah, it taught me to be worse. So anyway, speaking of things I do in the middle of the night, here's a story for you, Christine. This new year, why not let Audible expand your life by listening? Explore over 1 million audiobooks, podcasts, and exclusive Audible originals that'll inspire and motivate you. Just open the app and tap into your well-being with advice and insight from leading influencers, experts, and professionals.

Whatever your focus or interest, there's a listen for it on Audible. You'll find titles on better health, including personal fitness, nutrition, and professionals. Whatever your focus or interest, there's a listen for it on Audible. You'll find titles on better health including personal fitness, nutrition, and relaxation. Here are ways to improve your relationships both in your work and personal life or how to embark on a new career strategy. If you want to overhaul your financial life or hear smart talk about investing for your future, you can find that too. Ultimately, it's all about starting good habits. Making a positive change is the best resolution you can make for yourself and Audible can help. There's so much opportunity and more to imagine when you listen. Let Audible help you reach the goals you set for yourself. Start listening today when you sign up for a free 30-day trial at audible.com slash drink.

So Christine, Alison and I, we were up really late last night. Our timelines are completely off when it comes to a normal sleep schedule. And we could not figure out what we were going to do for food. It was too late to order anything. We didn't want to make anything that was going to take forever. And we landed thankfully on Goodell's. I know. I feel like the mac and cheese used to have a bad rap of like being, you know, something that you just do last minute. But with with Goodell's, seriously, Leona will like plan out which ones

she wants to try throughout the week. And we have a routine and it's like a real meal. It doesn't feel like kind of that last-ditch effort. That's because Goodell's line of mac and cheese has so many great flavors. They have vegan and gluten-free options. And don't tell Leona, but each serving has 14 grams of protein. Don't tell Em either. Seven grams of fiber with prebiotics and 21 vitamins and minerals from real plant sources. It's low glycemic index food for steady energy instead of a carb crash which that's like the best and worst thing that ever happens to me. The second I eat a carb I'm out cold.

And it's kosher and clean label purity award certified. Trust us you need some good old mac and cheese in your life and don't forget their nutrient packed pasta too. Pick up Goodell's on your next shopping trip. It's available nationwide at major grocery stores and retailers. We know you'll love Goodell's as much as we do. This one I'm going to tell you now is not a one parter. What could that mean? Not a one parter. What could that mean? Isn't that fun, those double negatives? No, it makes my brain hurt. Well, I also, I don't know how many parts it's gonna be. I think it's gonna, I think we could do it all in two. It might be a three-parter, depending on the rest of them.

Oh, I see, so, okay, okay, okay, okay. It was just too, well, there was no way that we were gonna get through it. So, it's two-parter for you, fun. As long as we're not doing that thing where we, I do a one-parter, you do a two-parter, whatever the hell we did that one time. Are you doing a one-parter today? No, no, no.

I said, thank God we're not doing that. I feel like we did something recently that was like real wild, but, um, no, I'm good. I feel like we did too. I am good for an any-parter. Oh, well, this is the first chunk of the exorcisms, that's plural, of, I think the way you pronounce it is, Nicolas Aubrey. This is also known as the Miracle of L'Ange, which is a town in France. At least by the end of the story, they end up in Blanc.

Okay. It's all over the place, you'll see why later. But we begin in her hometown, and this is in the 16th century. I gotta tell you now, just for context later, that this will be a running theme through however many episodes it takes to do this story. But this is in the 16th century.

This was a big time for the Catholics versus the Protestants. Oh, they loved, yeah. Oh, they were all riled up, all of them. They loved the hatred, I think. Oh, they loved the drama of it. For sure they did. I get it. So, there's to be a few times where I just say the Protestants

as an overwhelming overarching term. But there are specifically Calvinists involved. Oh, yeah. Huguenots. And I'm sure that they would all just hate to be called Protestants and lump together. But whatever, that's the only way my brain. Listen, the United States education system has probably failed us in countless ways. And let's just blame this on them. Well, I don't know if you can speak to this. You certainly could more than me, but one of

just if you can confirm or deny and if you don't know, that's fine. But at least as far as this story goes, the main difference we care about between the Catholics and the Protestants is that they had a huge belief difference in transubstantiation. Just say it. Transubstantiation. OK. Would you like to explain to the class what that is, or should I give it a whirl? It's literally my favorite thing to talk about. Perfect. Transubstantiation is the...

And I've honestly probably somebody could clip, speaking of jack-cutting bloopers, like somebody could probably clip 16 instances of me across podcasts talking about this. I do remember you saying it before, so I knew I could rely on you first. You know, on rituals, that's where we talked about it. I was like, I've extensively discussed this on rituals. No, so basically the idea of transubstantiation is the Catholic belief that when you are providing the Eucharist to the congregation, the... The Eucharist is the little wafers, right? So the Eucharist is just the actual...

It's so... Okay. That's okay. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to put you on this spot there. No, it can reference the wafer, but the Eucharist is like the actual whole ritual. It's so there. Okay. It's okay. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to put you on the spot there. No, it can reference the wafer, but the Eucharist is like the actual whole ritual of it. I was trying to think of the word. Yeah. Okay. So it's the ritual is the Eucharist.

So when you offer the Eucharist, which is like the gift of the body and the blood, you are giving, you know, the priest blesses the bread and blood of Jesus, the bread and wine which becomes the body and blood of Jesus and transubstantiation argues that it's literally Jesus's body and literally his blood. And so when you're drinking the wine or eating that little wafer, you're physically imbibing Jesus' body, physically, literally, not metaphorically. So that is my understanding of transubstantiation. That's about exactly what I was going to say, except you said it better. I just think it's fantastically wild that they literally are like, yep, we still stand by that.

Well, I know we definitely talked about that on rituals, because we would say, like, how on earth can the Catholics think that, it's like that's not a ritual Like it's really right. Exactly. It's like the ultimate ritual. You're literally saying you're cannibalizing Yeah Yeah, exactly. Also if I were worshipping someone, I don't know if I'd want to eat them. I know okay Trust me. You sound like a Huguenot right now. You know what I'm saying? I'm a dirty Protestant. I guess. Dirty Calvinist. Just whatever.

We probably just like actually offended a bunch of people. I have no idea what that means. Please, please don't yell at me. You can be offended by me. That's okay. I gotta be honest. If you think it's weird that I think it's weird that you're cool with eating skin and blood. Well, that's Catholics. I think the Protestants were a little like. So far I'm team Protestant.

Yeah, I think they're a little less like intense about the ritual stuff maybe. That's my vibe, but I don't know. So my understanding is during this time, I think they, I'm sure had multiple arguments in terms of like doctrine and beliefs, but the one that matters for this at least is that specific thing.

They're like, it becomes the body and blood of Christ. Or is it just like a symbol? Well, I'd be remiss if, right, is it metaphorical? And I'd be remiss not to mention Martin Luther. Not to be confused with Martin Luther King, who nailed his theses on the church. Okay. You know? No, you sound so smart to me right now.

Okay. No, you sound so smart to me right now. Okay, he wrote, he pinned his 95 Theses to the church door and He's a real lumpy looking fella, but basically he had a lot of thoughts about and he's the one who like split from He's the Martin Lutheranism is he's a base of Lutheranism, which is a branch of Protestantism Anyway, he had all these theses he had 95 of them I'm sure one of them was about fucking eating the blood and body and whatever but yeah I have a big stapler to put that on the wall Well, so anyway, that's the the big thing this time around and I not only did the Protestants or I don't know which version Calvinist Huguenots, I don't know fucking the Protestants are I don't know which version Calvinist, Huguenots, I don't know. Fuck it. The Protestants.

They not only would say like that doesn't literally happen, it doesn't just materialize into skin that you're eating, but it's also idolatry in some way, I guess. I don't know enough about religion. I'm so sorry, everybody. But anyway, they are they are against the fact that this stuff turns into the actual body and blood of Christ. That's all that matters. Um, and in this case I'm talking about with, uh, Nicola Aubrey,

this case was later used by the Catholic church in their like big war against the Protestants. They use this for their own agenda of like see Catholicism is right and you're wrong. Okay. I'm intrigued. Okay, so we start not too long ago, 1565. Yeah. And this takes place from November to February, so it's four months. And the main character is a 15-year-old named Nicola Aubrey.

And a lot of the notes that I got, I feel like, okay, I ended up doing two rounds of notes, which like means I did like a lot more work than I planned on doing. But there was a whole set of notes I did. And then I found this like book, which I read. No. And it was like a 60 page book, so everyone relaxed. But it was still like, to me, a novel. That's a lot of pages to read just on the fly, you know. Thank you. Well, because I read like the first chapter and I was like, that isn't anywhere in the fucking notes that I got.

Oh, geez. No wonder Astonishing Legends has like 11 books that they read per episode. I'm like, where do you get this stuff? Oh books All this did was and by the way when I say got the notes I got I didn't mean like our Our researcher sent them to me I did all these notes by myself But when I say I got I mean I did my own notes and I thought I was done and then I read this chapter It's like a last ditch like let me just read this one the danger. You're like one more source

And it's like surprise what the fuck this was nowhere. So it's like, surprise. And then I went, what the fuck? This was nowhere. So it's like me and my fucking ancestry or my newspapers. I'm like, just one peek at this article. Oh, who's Helen? You know, and then I'm off to the races. And also now I'm terrified that like there's several other books with several other pieces to the story that I just don't know about.

I'm sure there are, but you know what? It's too late now. I was going to say we're four under some episodes in. I'm sure the same is true for all of our stories. So don't know about. I'm sure there are, but you know what? It's too late now. I was going to say we're four under some episodes in. I'm sure the same is true for all of our stories. So don't worry. Yeah. Okay, so this, this I got from the book and it was written by like a reverend

who was like recounting this whole experience. Oh, okay. So, okay. 15 year old Nicola Aubrey, she- Wait, what's the book called? Just so we have the- Triumph of the blessed sacrament over Beelzebub by father Michael Muller in

1877 so that feels like a long time ago, but it was so look I have it on goodreads You can find it on audible. Yeah Read by the author yeah read by Beelzebub himself Yeah, so for that seems a long time ago because he wrote it in the 1870s, but also that he still wrote it like 300 years after. The book is right in the middle of when it happened to now. Oh, I see. It's like that thing of like, oh, did you know that Cleopatra was closer to Justin Bieber and you're like, what are you talking about? Stop breaking my brain. Yeah, apparently Abraham Lincoln and fax machines were around at the same time.

What? See, I can't abide by that. That's actually really not okay. I actually rebuke it in the name of God. Rebuke it. Not to be so on the nose now. Let's add another exorcism to that list of exorcisms you brought today.

Okay, so she's 15. She goes to her grandpa's grave and she begins praying for him. And soon this man appears before her and he's covered in a shroud so she can't see what he looks like. But he says, I am your grandfather. I feel like you could just take the shroud off. It's like, okay, next time I want to trick somebody to think of someone else, I'll just put a big blanket on and just say, I'll push you to man and say, I'm I'm Dr. Seuss. I am the Lorax. I speak for the trees. Yeah. So apparently this thing like couldn't reveal himself

to his own granddaughter who knew you well enough to go pray for you. Yeah. It's just a weird, like, is it like you're trying to be like mysterious? Is this like something wacky grandpa does? I was gonna say, did you always wear a shroud? Like, is that part of his look? I don't know. Is he still, has he still lost his marbles in the afterlife?

Oh no. He still thinks like the beach towel is a cape, but not a beach towel. He still thinks the beach towel is a cape, but not a beach towel. But it also feels like maybe his burial shroud. Maybe. You know, like maybe he was buried in it and then I was like, oh, the corpse of me is here.

I guess so. I don't know. Yeah, we'll never know. I wish I could talk to him myself. JK, I don't want to do that. Yeah, I don't either. But so she did not feel safe about this and ran back home because she was like, my grandpa, that's fucking crazy. Can you imagine? Wait, honey.

What the fuck? It feels safe. If my grandpa appeared when I was seven sitting on my bed in a shroud and said, I am your grandpa, I'd be like, that's too much. You're actually Beelzebub. Yeah. So anyway, she runs home. Oh, when she gets there, the man reappears now without the shroud. Oh, thank God. So like you didn't need the shroud the whole time. So okay, whatever. That was like just for like the theatrics. Like, yeah, I was gonna say he was like, I need like, I only get so many costume changes that people witness these days. So after he's after he's he's no longer wearing the shroud He appears at the house and she could see this was her grandpa He tells her that he's in trouble and he's coming to her because she was just praying over him and guess what?

He's in purgatory doesn't look like it. You're right here. Hey. Yeah, you just said you're here. Can you pick a lane? Exactly. And exactly and by the way, you were over there a minute ago and I really appreciate it if you didn't just like jump from place to place. Right. So are you in purgatory or at the graveyard or in my house? Right. Like pick a fucking spot. And where do you keep your closet full of shrouds? Right. I was going to say, does the shroud just go into a fucking wardrobe? Where does it go? So he says he's in purgatory and he, the only reason he did that,

despite doing all the right things apparently, is that he promised to God that he was going to make four different pilgrimages to different locations and he never got to do those four pilgrimages. So when he died suddenly, he never even got to like apologize for that or ask for forgiveness or something. So now he's in purgatory. So he wants to travel more. Well, so yes. However, he did say, since I can't do it on my behalf,

since you're my family, I need you to do these pilgrimages. That is a, you can't just, like, ask someone to do a pilgrimage for you. That doesn't, it's not how that works. Yeah, unless it's to, like, get coffee, I don't really want to do it. Like down the road? Yeah, that feels like really a big ask. If someone said a pilgrimage, like, back to my house to, like. Like down the road? Yeah, that feels like really a big ask. If someone said a pilgrimage like back to my house

to like rot on the couch, yeah. Yeah. Pilgrimage, here we go. Yeah, it just feels like no, no. Well, he then tells her like, it's not only up to her, like a family all has to go to finish his pilgrimages so he can go to heaven. And by the way, there were four,

three of them were in France, so okay,, local fine. One of them was in Spain. And then after being told this, Nicola, she passes out. And then she wakes up and tells her family what she saw. Okay, she don't I don't feel like my grandma would, my grandpa would make me pass out. Although I did fall asleep immediately after I saw him. I was gonna say, maybe she just was like, fell asleep more than fainted. Had a dose, yeah. So she didn't want to inconvenience her family. Love that for her.

Classic woman, right? Classic woman, yeah, passive. So she told them all, hey, grandpa showed up. And also here's this thing. He said, we have to all go to France to like three different locations and do pilgrimages for him did not mention Spain did not want to inconvenience them so she thought maybe if I do just three of the four like that'll be enough oh I see okay

after doing all of this which I feel like if you're already bringing up your dead grandpa bringing you a message maybe just go to Spain make a vacation out of it. Yeah, at this point, it's like you're all in, you know, you can't turn back now, you might as well commit. Maybe Spain was like not that great in 1565. I'm unsure. It was awesome. I bet you could have found something fun to do for a second. After they go to, they do all three locations in France, the whole whole family. Yay That feels worse than doing none of them Like to do most of them and then be like and not that one like that feels so dismissive Just an unfinished to-do list. Yeah that would feel like oh my god, he's almost out of purgatory, but I'm gonna stop there Like what are you doing?

It's almost like now he can see the door and it's open, he just can't walk in. It's worse, I think. So well, maybe this was her, his revenge on them, because after doing all this, all seems fine and well. She has nearly fully helped her grandfather, but then one day she's getting ready for church and an invisible force grabs her, drags her under the bed, and she begins convulsing. Oh my god. And I will say up until this point, according to one source and one source only,

she did not have any medical history anyone would associate this with except for like chronic headaches, but that's it. She then tells her family that she, like after the convulsion, she's like, oopsies, sorry, I actually think that was grandpa and he's pissed because we didn't go to Spain. Whoops, so... They're like, Spain? She's like, oops, I forgot to tell you. I forgot to tell you.

Which I wish my grandparents would punish me if I didn't just like go on a trip to Spain, but... Seriously, I was joking, but I'm like, okay, unfinished travel, like, yeah, it's not the worst. Let's go. So, uh, I didn't see this in the original conversation anywhere. Like, and I was reading, like the book that I read, it felt like it was pretty much a like word for word translation, which who knows what that how true it was after 300 years, but it seemed to be covering

everything. Like a full account. Yeah. And yet it was never mentioned until only now when she's saying, Oh yeah, I just had this convulsion. Grandpa wants us to go to Spain. Um, and if we don't fulfill his wishes, he's going to make me deaf, blind, and dumb, which I know we're all like not worthy words. As I said it out loud, I went, I should have not said that. Yeah. Yeah. So, I'm assuming that's a direct quote. Yes.

Except for grandpa wants us to go to Spain. Um, yeah. So I'm assuming that's a direct quote. Yes, except for, grandpa wants us to go to Spain. Well, maybe. It was the exact threat that he, we'll just say in French, then we'll be exact quote. Yeah. Je ne veux pas, I cannot see. Oh no, that was so good. Thank you.

I don't even know if that was true if that was it sounded right to me thanks uh around this time she also started getting really sick she was refusing to eat and now she's speaking in a rough voice that she says is grandpa grandpa's starting to sound really fucking dark yeah is grandpa actually be elizabeth like you know what i mean like is yeah like what's going on here i I don't know I'm I'm worried now for them. So so they they thought she might be losing it. They're like, oh god She's like really taking his death hard. It seems so They wanted to appease her but they didn't want to go to sprain. I wonder if they just like couldn't afford it or like honestly

maybe Politically historically something's I don't know. No totally and I feel like I was about to just make up a totally Faked fact and be like, you know how the war of whatever but no, I'm not even gonna I'm not the Spanish Inquisition or something Yeah, yeah. Yeah, sure. Sure. Sure. Yeah. No, I don't know enough about history to make jokes about it Um, but I was gonna say Yeah, maybe like if they were like just were they working class people do we know like I? Don't really know it's like I say they even had just like a farm like you can't just leave you know yeah That's a good point yeah, and if she's like really sick. You don't want to like take her to fucking Spain

So they I guess wanted to appease her and they're like okay. We're all gonna tell her we went to Spain and Come on. Oh my gosh. This is just like Sitcom like episode Everything's going wrong. Her family literally dresses up as if they're about to go on a pilgrimage. Like with sunscreen on their faces. I imagine like a big mosquito net hat. I don't know. Binoculars, dangling. And they all say, okay, bye, feel better. We're going to go to Spain on your behalf.

They stomp her out on the porch? Like what are you talking about? They went to work. They literally just went to work. And everyone was like, why are you wearing... And why are you back in 24 hours? Why are you wearing socks and sandals to work today? Weird that from your 9 to 5, you were able to come right back from Spain. From Spain. So, without knowing that this was their little plan, Nicola later tells her parents

or someone who stayed behind to take care of her. She says, this is a quote, have you no pity on me? My grandfather says he will torture me and wrench all my limbs because the pilgrimage is not made. They have not left the city. Louis is in his father's house sitting near the fire

and my uncles are at work. So she clocked them real quick. This is what officially freaked them out. They're like, oh, you're not losing it. This might be spiritual. So convinced that something has got a hold of her, her parents call a priest, bring them up and say, do your little exorcism thing things because I think something evil is going on here and when as she's hearing this we're certainly not going to Spain anything but that if we will pay you the price of a trip a trip to Spain for you to come seriously will you actually do the pilgrimage that would be really nice they actually really now that I'm thinking about it seem to hate Spain yeah I wonder if there was something you're probably right. There's some probably geopolitical thing that we're just completely ignorant of.

Maybe. Yeah, I don't know. OK, so they bring in a priest. I almost don't even want to bother you with the names of the priests because so many priests are going to get shown up in the story. And by the time I tell you next week's half, you're not going to remember these names. So I'm going to say we'll just lump them together, you know. I'm going to say the names, but you do not have to remember these names. So I'm going to say, we'll just lump them together, you know, I'm going to say the names, but you do not have to remember them. Okay, great. Okay. Um,

just know that they're like, okay, you're fine. You'll figure it out. You're right. If you said, yeah, I'm going to say a bunch of names of priests. You have to remember them. That feels like I'm back in school, Catholic school. Get your gargoyles out now. So she hears her parents saying like we need an, uh need an exorcist or a priest to come through. Nicholas starts fainting again, because now this is just like a common thing with her now that she's been taken by this thing. She's fainting again and on her way out of consciousness she says, grandpa requests this

particular priest to do the exorcism. Okay. Thumbs up? This guy's name is Father Lotrachet. It does not matter. particular priest to do the exorcism. OK, this comes up. This guy's name is Father Lotrachet. It does not matter, but he's just the first of many. So he comes over and Nicole, who Nicola is. Fully possessed now by a spirit, just, you know, now this thing is speaking within her, it's like ready to party now because the priest is coming. Yeah, I also would like to note that it's interesting she was seeing grandpa and then relaying what he said during

their conversations but now something's speaking through her. Yeah, yeah. Interesting. It feels like now that the priest is coming that thing took over. Or switching it up. Yeah. Okay, so without moving her mouth, Okay, so without moving her mouth, out of her mouth comes, I am the soul of, insert grandpa's name, I can't pronounce it so I'm not going to try, but I am the soul of this person's grandfather. And while the priest asks more about grandpa and what's going on and why he's in purgatory, something feels off. And so the father says, hey, are you not the grandpa? Are you just an angel that's trying

to make contact with us? A quick cue for you. And then the spirit goes, yes, yes, I'm not the grandpa. I'm actually an angel. I'm a good angel. Like, and also- Oh no, that's such a red flag, right? If you have to say I'm a good angel,

no one was wondering until you said that. Can I give you like an example that I feel like, like somebody knocks on the door and you're like, hello? And they're like, Hi, I'm here from like Cincinnati Bell. I want to work. I need to fix your thing. And then you're like, Oh, you mean like the Duke Energy? And then like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm in Duke Energy. Then it's like, wait, you know what I'm saying? Like it feels like way, way, way, way, I'm in Duke Energy. Then it's like, wait, you know what I'm saying? Like, it feels like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, either you're one or the other, you can't just jump onto my idea and pretend like it's yours.

Ugh. It's like hearing a kid in the other room go, everything's fine, it's like, I know. It's like hearing Leona go, this is not blue, this is not Blippi. And I'm like, fucking no, it's Blippi again. Well, exactly like that, except it's a devil. Same difference. So this thing says, I'm not the grandpa.

I am, you caught me, I'm a spirit. I'm a good angel. Oops, but I love you. I lied, but it's actually even better than I was saying. But you know how I'm not allowed to lie because I'm an angel, but I did it anyway. Bingo. And so the priest said, I call bullshit on that because the good angels, first of all, why would you call yourself a good angel?

It's so weird. Also, because fallen angel, because like isn't loose for an angel. I see now. See, this is someone without a religious background going, why? And there's apparently an answer for everything Yeah, this is someone who deals with their crushing Chris Catholic trauma by watching shows about Catholic Well the priest says also on top of all this good angels can't possess somebody who didn't like invite this in so like what is going on? Pretend to be someone else. Yeah, it's just no, no, no, no, no. And I think you're a demon. That's pretty much how it ends. And as soon as he says, I think you're a

demon, Nickelock faints. As in like this thing just floats away. Like oops, I don't actually want to talk to you anymore. So the priest, he's out. He's like, okay, I clocked that as a demon. I don't want to do this anymore. So, um, Oh, and grandpa specifically requested him. That's gross. Cause that, that means it was like the demon. I wonder if he was like the weakest priest. And the demon was like, I wonder, or like just sense that he would be the most scared or something. The most vulnerable or something. Yeah. So anyway, he said, okay, I've done my part. I'm out. And like, you see it worked. Yeah, truly the city gets together the city of priest the council if you will they get together and like okay now we're gonna bring in a new a new priest this one's name is father domada and i really hope he started his first exercise them with what's the model with you what's the model today know then you get punched in the face everyone. Damada today. No, then he'd get punched in the face.

Everyone. I think the demon would just evacuate the body to never hear him talk again. It actually would probably work. Yeah. So Damada shows up and as soon as he comes in, Nicola's possession is back and for the worst and she is flinging around. Several men can't hold her down. And he tells the demon, I think you're a demon, not a good spirit, just like the last one, you can't fool me. Nicola faints again, very convenient.

You'll notice quite a trend in these stories that as soon as someone calls him out on anything, he faints, she faints. Yeah, I'm sensing that pattern. Which again, as someone who is neither Catholic nor Protestant, this just feels like a girl who was doing a silly little prank and now she just keeps fainting because she just like doesn't know how to say anything. Like completely unironically, side note that like at school,

we used to try to faint in chapel to just get out of church. Beautiful. And you would like lock your knees. There's like a really specific way to do it and hold your breath. And people would just like faint to get there were a couple who were really good at it. I always chickened out. I was scared to hit my head. That was yeah.

I feel like the that's the equivalent of like or the religious equivalent of like spraining your ankle or trying to fake an injury so you don't have to play a sport. Yeah, so we did that after church. Like we would try that in church, then afterwards it's like, oh, I twisted my ankle or... From falling when I fainted. You remember how many times church just injured me. When I was rushing one of my Greek lives, there was someone in the middle of us having the big initiation ceremony someone passed out, because she was locking her knees.

I didn't even, that was the day I learned that locking your knees could lead you to fainting. I had no idea. I was seven the day I learned. I remember it well under the stained glass windows of the crucifixion. I was like, why the hell? I was like, how did she faint?

And everyone knew apparently they must have also gone to Catholic school because they were like, oh, she probably locked her knees. And I'm like, you can do that and faint. That's crazy. Maybe people just did it to get out of other things too. I imagine assemblies. Like initiation. Initiation.

Wait, so do they think she did it on purpose? No, I just, oh, just out of excitement, she like had locked her knees or something. I think, I think maybe she was just like, she was standing, had nerves or something. I don't know. It was like one of those like ceremonies that's supposed to feel like, are like a really big deal. So maybe she was like tensed up or something. Yeah. I just remember going, Oh, there she goes. She's out. See ya. Didn't pass the test. Didn't pass. Yeah. Um, so she goes. She's out. See ya. You didn't pass the test. Didn't pass.

Yeah. So, okay. So now Father Damada is involved with this, calls her a demon and then she passes out immediately. A few days later, she wakes up to what she says is holy water sprinkled all over her bed. How do you know? Right? Because you're infested by a demon? I don't know oh maybe well holy water has like oil in it too i literally wake up in oily sweat all the time

well good point em touche i mean cannot argue with should i be like i think there's a demon and this is all holy water you should be like this is just holy water don't worry about it well it freaked her out enough she signed herself with the cross a bunch of times, and then she took out a rosary and put it in the shape of a cross on her bed because she was so freaked out. And the cross lifted itself off the bed. Whoopsies. One source, the book, this story, this part of the story,

it makes me almost not believe the whole book because I'm like, how did no other source talk about this? This is a fucking weird part. You know what I mean? Yes, I do to take this with a grain of salt, but it was Discussed so I'm just gonna share it and if anyone has any information on this Let me know if like it's accurate or not. I got a feeling it's not But it was too interesting to not share so we can always banter on this. And if it's in a book that feels pretty official. Like a 300 year old book.

Okay, so anyway, after this whole rosary lifts itself and she's covered in holy water slash sweat, she's out walking in the garden and she sees a goblin. No other source anywhere. I looked up, there was like at least 20, 25 sources I used. I just was like shell shocked for a moment there. A goblin. And then the goblin looks at her, evil, smiles and says, look at me, am I not a nice grandfather? Hello?

Excusez-moi? We're French, so. Pardon, I meant. Pardon-moi? Pardon-moi? Excusez-moi? Zut alors. Yeah. Oh, sorry. there were French so um

Yeah so Oh la la so he grabs her And pulls her away and she now goes missing for a big portion of the day and the family finds her Oh, I thought this was just like oh my she had a hazy vision of a goblin She literally got abducted by a goblin. Straight up saw a goblin who said, am I not a nice grandfather? Which like implies that now we're seeing the true colors of who is pretending to

be a grandfather. She gets grabbed pulled away and her family finds her locked behind a garden wall. And no one talked about this. Am I okay? Did I make this up? No, I think like, probably not you. If somebody put it in a book 300 years ago, I probably think it was somewhere. I wonder, okay, two things. Either the author got like really over exuberant and made up some some facts or something like this did happen. The family didn't want to talk about it because it was like so long ago that seeing a goblin was probably not something you're supposed to talk about. Yeah. And with the history of all the religious persecution, I don't know, maybe something like that. This is honestly my lesson to start reading

more books because had I not read this book, I would have never covered the fucking goblin. So I mean, and the goblin, you know, he would have come for you next. I know it. And that's how I'm gonna get Leona to read books too. Oh good. When the goblins will come for you. That'll work. Tell her the count from Sesame Street will get her. Oh yeah, well you know there probably are German books about goblins coming to get you if you don't read your books.

So I could probably just fulfill that terrible prophecy. Well, so another time Nicola is passed out out they're calling them swoons by the way So she's sort of like fainting like fainting but in like like in a snow white sleeping beauty way She's fully like she's almost incapable of waking up and and she looks dead. Let's put it that way Oh god. Oh, okay, so she's basically like fully unconscious you're saying. Yeah, but it sounds like she's able to kind of wake herself up at least in the beginning that she's like, like she's kind of there. She's more like, Oh, I'm on a fainting couch. Like, sure. Yes. So we're calling them swoons, I guess. So another time while she's in a swoon, her family heard

her talking to someone and she was refusing to give them an offering. Ugh! And she was refusing multiple offerings. Someone was obviously asking for a part of her hair and then her clothing and then food. And when she came to later, she said that she saw a dark man appear and she believed it was the devil. Oh my god. Who was talking to her another time, Nikola and her husband. Yes, she's 15 and has a husband. She fucking goblin.

Well, OK, this story again, only in the book. How did this not get across? It feels like every source I use, no one was reading the book. OK. But honestly, how many people probably have read this book? Probably barely any. So honestly, you may be are people usually just I feel like copy with other online sources. Maybe you're the only one who really got to the bottom of it. You're right, actually, I actually am.

I'm better than everyone. I'm glad you said it. So that's exactly what I said. Her and her husband are walking down the hall and all of a sudden they hear her little brother crying and I guess her little brother is a baby. Um, so she asks her husband to go check on her brother, but the husband who has seen quite a, quite a creepy thing every now and then in the last few weeks,

everything seems to just be weird in this house. He was like, I'm going to go check on the brother, but as I walked down this hallway, I'm not taking my eyes off you cause I feel like something weird is going to happen. Yeah, this feels off. Yeah. So he thought it could be a trick. He walks down the hall not taking my eyes off you because I feel like something weird is going to happen. Yeah this feels off yeah. So he thought it could be a trick he walks down the hall without taking his eyes off her and then when he glances just to look at the baby to make sure that he's still in the cradle he looks back at her and she's gone. What? Just completely disappeared and friends and family, neighbors are all looking for her and they find her behind another locked door and she claims that a demon carried her through the chimney to get into this locked room

Okay, this is starting to feel like she's making this up Just yeah starting to feel like I know I was trying to give her like a little room to keep explaining herself But the chimney I'm starting to be like Okay, if it's real, it's amazing. I'll tell you that. I mean, yeah, and also fucking terrible. But you know, another time when she was thirsty, her husband gave her some wine and I think just given everything going on, I'm thirsty. Give me some wine. Sounds familiar. Yeah, Blaze is probably like shuddering somewhere. Blaze. Her husband gave her some wine. He was freaked out about all this. Imagine having to sleep next to this person who's like haunted by a fucking demon.

Yeah, who keeps vanishing and like, speaking in like a goblin voice. Yeah. He slipped holy water into her wine just to, I think, try to cleanse her from the inside. I don't know. Hey guys, let's not slip anything into anyone's wine ever. It's already shitty whether it's for their good or not, you know without their consent Let's just not well if the demons are true when she drank the holy water the demons freaked the fuck out Yeah, she started having convulsions and then her face warped into a face that was no longer hers started having convulsions and then her face warped into a face that was no longer hers. Yuck.

Well, that would be scary if she really didn't know he put that in there and then she started reacting like that. Oh my god. Yeah. Isn't that interesting? Like maybe lends a little credence unless she saw him do it. She probably freaked out. Maybe she's like, I'm thirsty.

And he's like, um, how about some wine? And she's like, it's like 10 a.m you know maybe it was suspicious but i feel like that's a pretty good test to see it's also interesting to like test the digestive system like once it passed did her face go back to normal yeah good point did it like absorb into the bloodstream you know yeah i don't know you would think she would just throw it up if there was like a demon in there trying to pass it out. That's like the Half-Life of Holy Water. Now that's for the food scientists, I think. Yeah, Big Pharma, you tell me. Next day, Father Demata, he's still, he's priest number two, but he's still in the picture so far.

He's been doing these exorcisms and these rituals with her. This is the first time, though, that he now takes her to do a public exorcism. What? And all of them after this are public. Stop. I think the reason was so that people could pray along so that way there was more power, like the power of numbers. But I also think given this story being used to like between Catholics and Protestants,

I think it was to prove the power of Catholicism. Okay, well now I'm seeing why this book could have finagled a few little details if it was trying to tell some history of Catholicism or something. Yes. I see. These public exorcisms went on for two months. And by the end of the events, I think she had an exorcism. It feels like every day. I don't know if that's true, but it felt the amount of a side show it feels like yeah it's like doing like like she was she was pretty much like a reality star of the time for the moment um which like a religious

celebrity you don't get a lot of those so uh are you sure the duggars oh yeah by the way a lot of those by the way the bad, bad one in prison. Today's his birthday. Gross. Just a, just a fun fact. I never get to tell anyone. Tomorrow's my fifth grade social studies teacher's birthday. Tomorrow is going to be a good day for your teacher. I don't know. I hope so. I was trying to think if I knew anything else. Nope. Nope. Okay. So we, it went on for two months. There were thousands by the end of witnesses who saw these exorcisms. One source. Thousands of exorcisms. I was like, no, but your Christ. Okay. Thousands of people.

I will say, one of the sources said that she casually slipped in and out of repossessions, like 50 times a day. So like, does that mean 50 extras? Me too, by the way. I'm always slipping in and out of possession. That's why I sometimes go, I'm thirsty. And it's not me talking. That's when I go, I'm tired. No, I'm not. I'm tired. No, I'm not. Keep reading about Helen, this woman on ancestry.com that you've never met and have no relation to. Well, one source said that because it did.

Many sources said that like thousands of people witnessed this. I mean, after two months and she's like the most famous person. Like what else is going on anyway in the 1500s? You know? So thousands of people were going to these exorcisms. But once we're set up to 150,000 people saw her. Well, because if you think like people would go to these executions as like a take the family, bring a snack, you know, everyone gather around. So like it makes sense, at least

this is a slightly more child friendly than executing a person, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Like if you're going to play family G rated. Right. It's at least like slightly lower rated. Well, during the first public exorcism during these rituals, the devil immediately decides to have an opinion about things. And he tells the priest, all your exorcisms will not drive me out of this creature. Rude. Then as he says that Nicola's body twists and contorts in ways that it should not.

Her bones crack as if all of them are breaking at the same time. Oh my god, what? And 12 to 15 handlers were not strong enough to hold her down now. Used to be six, now it's up to 15. Oh my god. Also during this, I guess just to prove its power, a big stone fell from the ceiling onto one of the women in the crowd and the demon in her laughed and said it was his fault that he caused that. Can you imagine though if this was all an act and then a boulder fell on a lady and

you'd be like, yep, that was me. Totally planned that. She was like, perfect timing. Yeah. I'm guaranteeing that's what actually happened. This sounds dramatic. You could probably live a year off of the rumors and gossip of this day alone You know that like memes obviously memes didn't exist back then but she would have been there would have been like sort of line

Theory right like she yeah. Yeah, there was like a mean for sure about the older lady You know she became a meme in her there was a catchphrase about her or something So you don't want to be crowd lady, you know, there's Boulder on there's a Boulder coming. I don't know. I'm sure they would have older on aisle five. I don't know. Yeah, that's it. That's it. Well, so he's laughing and saying, oh, nobody's safe. I just caused that. Like, it's not just Nikola has to be worried. He then takes a moment to shout out the Protestants in the crowd. This is where we really get into. I love this. Okay. The propaganda. Propaganda. Yeah, I love it. Demonic propaganda. He calls them his faithful servants. Oh my God. That's hysterical. So, okay. Okay. I'm getting it. I'm getting it now.

And then Father Damada, I'm assuming this is still Father Damada. He says, why did you want Nicola to do a pilgrimage and all these things for her grandpa? And why did you want to do them in the name of God? Like, why would you want her to do these pious things instead of like something awful? If you wanted to like prove your power over her. And the devil, this is a quote, apparently verbatim after 300 years and now after 600 years, and translated. Yeah, and translated into English. The devil said said I knew if I told her to kill her father and mother or to commit a or to commit a crime She would not obey me and I should have been found out immediately So he just wanted to see if he had any control of her at all

I guess he was trying to get her to like travel around but why with the family whatever Yeah, I don't know that makes no sense to me. Maybe I don't understand the higher wisdom of feels above. Maybe I don't understand if 15 year olds try to lower wisdom of a 15 year old. The priest then says, why would you ask her for offerings and if you didn't want to be found out? And because remember he asked for her hair and shit. Another quote, the devil says, because I wish to make a compact with her

and thereby gain power over her soul. If she had only yielded to me a little, I would have taken entire possession of her heart, but the wretched creature would not consent for she knows I am a devil. And so that was day one. I don't know how poetic. I don't know how we awkwardly got out of that conversation, but eventually The demon went away for a second and i'm sure she passed out. Yeah. Yeah. He was like i'll be back everybody by your Avoid the boulder lady. She's emt's are handling that Imagine her own fear of like is it gonna come after me next, you know? Oh god. Yeah

Um, so that was day one. The second day, there's a new exorcism and each exorcism came with like a whole mass beforehand, like confession, communion, and like a new merch line every time. Every time. I was there for day two, like I was there for day one and it's like a boulder as a logo. I was there the day the boulder fell, yeah. I got hit by a boulder during an exorcism and all I got was a stupid shirt and a head injury. So the next day, round two, the second exorcism and Nicola is taken back to the church. The priests try out different holy relics on her during the ceremony and I guess the demon seems kind of pissed off, but nothing really happens. But when they bring out the Eucharist and put it near Nicola, which is the Eucharist, is that a specific thing?

So it's the body and blood of Christ. So it's basically like the sacrament. Yeah, that's what they keep calling it. And that's the sacrament. And so the Eucharist is like, yeah, you can give the Eucharist the full wafer. Perfect. So they put the sacrament near Nikola as they're trying out different relics They put the sacrament next to her the demon freaks the fuck out Well, she's had wine spiked with holy water before remember. Yeah, she's like I know what that shit's disgusting It's like if I were to put like tequila under your nose, you know Yeah, forget it the devil in me would be very upset. Well, so

Exactly. Yeah, forget it. The devil in me would be very upset. Well, so the demon freaks out and everyone's like, oh my gosh, this is the thing that like is really setting off the demon. And it freaking out. It takes it out on Nicola. Her body swells in a very odd way. Her eyes and tongue start protruding. Her face totally distorts. Oh my God, it sounds like an allergy.

At one point her tongue even goes black, then red, then spotted, and is hanging out of her face like she's like, she's just totally contorting and freaking out. The priest demands the demon's name and he says, I am Beelzebub. That's a big one too. And I'll tell you more about it next week. Oh my god, wait, I forgot it was a vault three. Damn it! I actually was like, usually exorcism stories I'm like,

yeah, yeah, this one I was getting real invested, man. Really good. Real invested, man. I am Beelzebub. What a fucking cliffhanger. So, and the next- Remember that time when we're going to record in five weeks weeks and you're gonna be like, what do you remember? And I'm gonna have just like dark thoughts like we certainly have to record sooner than that just we have sake of being like

I don't know this girl keeps fainting and be all the books here. I will need to know more pretty soon So yeah, I'll make sure of it. Good job. Good job. Thank you So I just got an email from Rocket Money telling me that they had halved, like in half, my security alarm bill for the year. They don't know how they did that. I was like, how? And they just said they have magic sorcery. They didn't say that.

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All right, um, I have a new one for you today This is one I hadn't actually heard of um until I discovered a subreddit where people discussed like lesser known cases I wanted to just do a little more. Uh, I don't know random Stories, I guess just like digging through ones that aren't as popular aren't as famous you know? sure. and I guess a lot of people will know if you were at least around uh in the Idaho area in 2012 but for me I had not heard of it and that is the story of Dior Kunz Jr. oh okay. and I want to specify his name is spelled D-E-O-R-R. And he's named after his dad, who's, by the way, first name is even wilder than his middle name.

Vernal. Vernal Dior-Kunz is his name. He is the only person with that name, for sure. Isn't that remarkable? Unless it's like they pass it down from every family member. Oh my god. But I don't think so. But at least you know they're all related, you know? Yeah, that's true too. That's true too, yeah. So unfortunately today's story is not only unsolved, it's also about a child. Right.

So yeah, it's double whammy but, you know, it's always one I like to share when there's a chance that somebody might able to contribute something, you know, so We'll get to that at the end. But so let's go to Idaho Falls, Idaho, a pretty small town This is where Dior Kunz jr was born on December 30th 2012 His parents were Jessica Mitchell and Vernal, as I told you, Dior Kunz. And the dad, Vernell, actually went by Dior most of the time. I can't imagine why with him. Either of them is a it's a they're still going to be the only one in the bar. Right. They're both creative, definitely are unique. But so to avoid confusion, we're just gonna say Dior is

the boy and Vernal is the dad. Sure. So Jessica and Vernal had been high school sweethearts and after high school they split and they both got married to other people. Jessica got married, had two children and then got divorced and years later they bump into each other. They're both divorced and guess what they're sparks. Yay! I know and they rekindle their romance. Vernal proposes and pretty soon Jessica becomes pregnant and at first she's a little freaked out because she already has two kids she felt like the relationship was moving really fast but kind of once they both agreed they were happy about it the shock kind of wore off and she and Vernal got really excited about it.

So Dior was born at the end of 2012, and it seemed like this almost like two perfect story, you know? Their high school sweethearts who, it could be like a Today Show like side story. Like a lifetime thing, like yeah, they separated after high school and then found each other again And then you know she took his name like I don't know it just feels very On the surface it all feels very beautiful very full house because that's what happened in the reunion I think that J and Steve got back together see I know about Martin Luther You know about the river with the in a game of trivia, we are undefeated. You know what though? That's so true.

It feels like a broad array of topics. Now, don't get me started on Calvinism. Just kidding. I would love to actually, because there's someone in the Duggars who is... I would love to. What? Okay, we'll get to that. Man, we're gonna need a lot of yappy hours today. Okay, so they named Dior after his father, but they often called him by his nickname,

which is Little Man, which I just thought was very cute. They called him Little Man. Jessica began working as a CNA, a certified nursing assistant, and she took a job as an in-home caregiver for her own grandfather, Bob Walton. His name was Robert Bob Walton. His name was Robert Bob Walton. Now Bob was in his 70s and he had pretty significant health issues. He needed to

be on oxygen at all times and he to Dior was the great grandfather. So to give you an idea. It's, it's Dior's mom's grandpa. Okay. So July 9th, Jessica Vernal and Dior set out with great grandpa Bob on a camping trip. And growing up Jessica loved to go with her grandpa Bob on camping trips. And because he's getting older, he has these health issues. She realizes, you know, we don't have that many years left. We should do this while while we can especially now that we have our little boy with us. at the time Diora is two and she wants to make this kind of a family affair, a family tradition, you know what i mean? so it's july 9th. they all go on their camping trip but grandpa bob has brought a friend along. uh oh. The friend is named Isaac Rinewand,

and Bob sometimes pays this guy to do yard work, that's how they met, but he's decades younger than Bob. And Bob, don't you love to hear this one? Someone says, I'm bringing an additional guest that we haven't accounted for. By the way, he's a little awkward and weird. Those are quotes. Oh my God. Also, like, to be going with a two-year-old child and your partner and you're just trying to like have a family getaway and then your grandpa's like, I brought a

really weird guy along. It's like, come on. And also like our relationship is pretty disconnected. Like, what did you say? That they're just like, he's a gardener or something? Yeah, he basically is a friend, or an acquaintance, but it's basically a guy that Bob sometimes hires to do... Bless you, Gio. It's basically a guy that Bob sometimes hires to do yard work for him and other odd jobs. It's not even like, it's like, hey, he's my brother, he's kind of weird. Totally, totally. It's not somebody close that like warrants an automatic invite. Like this feels like a very intentional, bring them along.

I don't know why. And like at the very least in the family group chat, be like, I got, I got trapped and I felt obligated to say something. I'm so sorry. This is going to be so weird for all of us. Don't, don't be like, it'll be weird for you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's by the way, he's really weird. Anyway, see you tomorrow. It be weird for you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's by the way. He's really weird. Anyway, see you tomorrow It's like what yeah, so they were like

Okay, and can you elaborate and Bob said well listen? He's a really good guy and he's a he wants to he's what I want to bring him along So they were like, okay. I mean honestly, they weren't that upset about it because I think they were like, OK, I mean, honestly, they weren't that upset about it, because I think they were mostly assuming like Bob would be fishing with his friend. And like, we'll just have our own little camping trip. And also, if you bring the weird person and you know, he's right. And it's your job to keep him. Exactly. And they had separate vehicles. So it's not like they needed to be in like close quarters. Sure.

You know. And so Vernal later said that when people this is the dad dear's dad vernal later said when people learn that a friend is weird he generally assumes or people when people warned him that a friend is weird he generally seems like maybe they're annoying or like whatever but he said like he and Jessica weren't really worried they just thought like okay some some weird friend of grandpa's is coming And even Isaac apparently thought it was a little weird that he had been invited on a family campout. Oh Right. I definitely thought that he like pushed to like join or something strange, right?

Like I was like that's a weird little like tidbit that even he felt strange about the invite. Interesting. And so they arrived to the Timber Creek campground in Salmon Chalice National Forest later that evening. It was after dark, so they pretty much went straight to bed. The forest itself spans 4.3 million acres in Idaho, and it contains 2.3 million acres of the Frank. Okay, now this is the name that I had to Google, and I went on a whole another rabbit hole about this. This apparently the largest uninterrupted wilderness area in the continental United States is here.

It's called the Frank Church River of the Frank Church River of No Return Wilderness Area. Wow. OK, like who approved that name? So. There was a meeting at some point. Would you like to know? Okay, so Frank Church was a senator and he did a lot for wilderness and wildlife in the Idaho area. And so that is why they named it after him when he passed.

But the no return, the river of No Return, I'm not entirely sure what that's all about. I can't really explain that, but it's named after this guy, Frank Church, you know? So I don't know. Okay. He did a lot for the trees. He spoke for the trees. Yeah, I should just call that Lorax Land or something.

Yeah. I feel like- I it's called like River of No Return because it's just so expansive, maybe. But it that it, you know, contains the and it because it contains the largest uninterrupted wilderness, it's kind of like. Yeah, that makes sense. Out there, you know, without interference. I do think if you're going to name something a long name, you need to really be intentional about the acronym that it's supposed.

Oh, good point. Like at least let it be called like something River of No Return. See, it doesn't even give you which R and R like it's got to be called. It's not going to be called that. Nobody's going to call the whole thing. The Frank Church River of No Return Wilderness area. It's really a mouthful, isn't it? Wow. And then I was like, is his name Church River? No, is it a river itself?

Like what is happening? Is it a church? Like, you know, it's just, there's a lot of words in there that kind of make it confusing. But anyway, Frank Church is the guy. Gotcha. It's called the River of No Return Wilderness Area. I wonder if River of No Return could have been maybe an original name.

You know what I mean? But I'm not sure. In which case I just want to be like, Frank, why are we renaming things? Well, he's dead. He they named it after him. Oh, OK. OK. So I said he was a senator who like helped and stay all this while these wilderness areas. So they named it after him when he died. I promise you I could be on a real rabbit hole with this um try to keep it together but I would love to rename it with you.

I won't I'm just gonna sit here and look pretty. Okay here we go. The name of the oh sorry not here we go to the story here we go to continue my quest to figure out. I figured it out. You're on the rabbit hole. Okay, great. The name of this wilderness. Okay. This is from the USDA.gov. The name of this wilderness has two roots. The main salmon river was called the river of no return back in the early days when boats could navigate down the river, but could not get back up through the fast water. Oh, and it's a salmon.

They swim upstream. Remember? Okay. I get it. River of no return. Okay. So it's less ominous than it sounds. It's just, you can't turn your boat around. I go the other way. And numerous rapids. The romantic name, really? I find it actually really threatening. Okay, sure. The romantic name lives on today. So it's basically, romantic name lives on today. So it's basically that was the name but now they attached Frank Church's name to this because he was such an instrumental part of the wildlife of Idaho I guess. Okay great love it good for him. Good for him good for them. Okay here we go this is where we are. They go to of all places the Frank Church River of no return wilderness area of course and they're specifically in the Timber

Creek campground which is part of the Sam and Chalice National Forest and while they are there they approach they arrive it's dark they go straight to bed and the closest town has a population of about 105. So it's like really remote and that was in 2012. So very, very, very small town and it's over a hundred miles northwest of Idaho Falls. So just under two hours by car. So basically the nearest town is just under two hours from where they live. They're, so they're out there. The final seven miles to Timber Creek is an unpaved, extremely rugged road.

Drivers have to go very slow, especially in the dark to avoid boulders that boulder, speaking of boulders that are embedded in the ground. Oh, my God. Hopefully not in a person who witnessed an exorcism hundreds of years ago. The Timber Creek campground was a large opening at the end of the road, basically a field surrounded by trees. It's almost like a dead-end, like open space. Sure. And it has a picnic table and a fire pit and about 50 feet from the campsite there's a small stream where campers can go fishing and Grandpa Bob loved to go fishing. So Isaac pitched a tent, Bob slept in a trailer.

Vernal, Jessica slept with Dior in the back of their vehicle. The next morning, Jessica realized she started her period. Rough timing. Whoops. So she needs to go back to the town, Leodore, with Vernal and Dior to buy menstrual products. Now, is that is this the town that's two hours away? No, I'm sorry. Their own town is two hours away.

The nearest town just has a town. It's a town of 105 people. It's about, it's called Liodor. So Liodor or Lidor, I'm not sure. So they go to Liodor to buy tampons. And as they're on the way, Vernal decides actually wait no, I need to get diesel first for the truck, which I'm like, that feels like maybe the priority should be the other way around unless you're like

really out of gas. Classic man. But yeah, it felt weird. So essentially Vernal decides they want to get diesel first. So essentially, Vranil decides they want to get diesel first. So they, he goes on a hunt, but it's not like he knows where it is. So he goes on a hunt for diesel and he's driving around this tiny town searching for a gas station that has diesel. Apparently, Liodor is like a one-road town, so when he doesn't see any options, he kind of drives out of the road a bit to see if there are other gas stations nearby. Then he turns back. Jessica says they searched for an hour before finally finding a diesel stop. Now I want to specify just as a side note here that it's been later, I believe it was on Crime Junkie that I heard them explain that one source said there's no way you

can get lost in this town. It's a one-road town. You're not sure you would find what you're looking for pretty quickly. That's just a side note that I had heard from a source. So very much hearsay, but I just want to point it out. Okay. They chatted with the gas attendant. This is how the story goes. They chatted with the gas attendant. This is how the story goes. They chatted with the gas attendant who noticed Dior in the truck and said he really liked kids and, you know, played with him, played peekaboo with him or whatever, while Vernal gassed up the truck. So later, finally, they're back at the stage stop, which is the name of this little store to get tampons. Jessica notices that there's this kind of older guy sort of leering at Dior the baby as they're shopping yeah and she says he just stared so long

that she got really uncomfortable and he gave her the creeps so as she left the store she kind of made note of this black Jeep that was parked outside and she just assumed that belonged to him. She loaded Dior into the truck with Vernal and they made it back to the campground at around 1 p.m. Isaac and Bob had been busy fishing and they had quite a catch to show off. So Jessica and Vernal followed Isaac to the creek and said, here, why don't you show us

where the best fishing spot is? Dior was going to go with his parents and Isaac, but he seemed indecisive. And Bob was finished fishing and just sitting in a chair with his oxygen tank. And Jessica said, like, hey, if you want to come with us, you can. Otherwise, you can stay here with grandpa Bob. And apparently Dior had candy at the campsite. So he said, I think I prefer candy to fishing. I think I know my priorities I think I have them straight and he decided to stay with great grandpa Bob So he turned back and Jessica watched him make his way back to grandpa Bob and she went off

With Vernal and Isaac to go look at the fishing spot Vernal and Isaac to go look at the fishing spot. So 15 to 20 minutes later, Vernal walks back to the campsite. He wants to go get Dior and bring him to the stream because there are these little minnows in the stream and he wants to show Dior the minnows. But as he's looking around, he sees Dior's toys, but Dior is not there. Vernal asked Bob where Dior is and Bob seems confused. And he says, Dior was playing right over there behind my chair. And every couple of minutes I would just glance over and check on him.

I have no idea how he could have disappeared so suddenly. It all takes like one second. Literally and this is nightmare fuel right? So this is a wide open space. Dior was wearing a pair of loose oversized boots so they're thinking okay he couldn't have gotten that far he's only two years old so they start looking immediately they're becoming increasingly panicked of course Jessica hears Vernal scream like shouting so she rushes back and joins in the search and Isaac eventually notices like okay there's a commotion so

he comes back from fishing and says what what's going on? And Bob says, oh, we can't find Dior, he disappeared. And so now Isaac is like, wait, what? We just, he was just here a minute ago, everyone's just completely perplexed and confused. And the guilt that he probably feels too, of like, I just, I was supposed to have eyes on him. Yeah, exactly. And he he has oxygen. So like physically, it's really hard for him to like even. Be in the state to catch him, right, if he goes off running, exactly. So, of course, the campsite is too remote for a cell phone signal back in 2012. So Vernal gets in the truck and he drives down the road until he finds enough service to call 911. Jessica manages to get a signal at the campsite and calls her mom.

And her mom's name is Trina and this is Bob's daughter. So basically it goes, um, Jessica, Trina, Bob. Right. As the line. So Trina says, hang up, call 911. And Jessica does just before 2 30 PM and she tells the operator that her two year old son has been missing for about an hour. So search and rescue teams arrive on site and at first their hopes are pretty high because

if a kid goes missing from a campsite, they're usually recovered pretty quickly. But as they're looking around, they don't find any sign of this kid. So they do this they pull off this drastic search effort it goes on for two days with nearly 200 people scouring the area on foot, ATV, horseback, helicopter. Oh my god. They're looking everywhere and Jessica wondered you know maybe he had toddled over to the water and drowned you know that's definitely um a very viable possibility um but a thorough search by divers confirmed that Dior didn't seem to be in the water anywhere um and so they felt relief about that but then you know obviously they still don't have an answer so they start thinking could a wild animal have taken him? And it seems possible there are bears and some wolves, but it just didn't quite add

up like there would have been sounds there would have been blood there would have been a boot or piece of clothing, anything like that. And besides wolves are not known to attack people in this area. So searchers are looking just in case they search for animal tracks, any disturbed soil, any sign of like, of course, a struggle or blood, anything like that. They even checked the bear dens that they knew of, and they found nothing. Wow, he just vanished. Yes. So with other possibilities ruled out investigators began considering that maybe Dior had been abducted and then the FBI got involved. So now this is becoming really big and really scary. In Idaho Falls, Jessica and Vernal did an interview for the news appealing to anyone with any information to help them find their son.

Vernal looks at the camera. He's crying and he says, buddy, we'll find you. Daddy will find you. And they keep calling him little man, which makes it just so much more like when they talk to him. Colonel looks at the camera, he's crying, and he says, buddy, we'll find you, daddy will find you. And they keep calling him little man, which makes it just so much more, like when they talk to him, they say like, we'll find you little man,

and it's like, it's just really hard to watch. So the community rallied behind the parents, you know, there are these vigils, they're putting them on billboards, and leads quickly start rolling in. One was from a Walmart employee who reported a man shopping with a little boy who looked just like Dior. And of course they check and this is a false lead.

There is no connection. It did look like him, but it's not the same kid. Then a woman hiking with two toddler boys reports being stalked by a man driving a black Jeep. Oh shit Okay and so of course that like you know pings them a little bit and they start looking into that and They suspect maybe this is the same man Jessica encountered at the stage stop that she you know I am about who was eyeing the kid

But turns out the shop owner knows the guy very well who owned the Jeep. Police confirmed he was not involved. There was no way he could have been involved. I so quickly was like, I know, because it's like you find these. But then you think also it's a really small town. So it's like maybe there's just this creepy dude wandering around. He's probably I don't doubt that he's a creep if he's making all these parents uncomfortable, right? But maybe that's it You know, and it just didn't have anything to do with the actual crime or disappearance

So only one road leave leads to the Timber Creek Campground and I know I said earlier but it's very Rugged and investigators believe that a car couldn't really have passed through there without being heard by somebody. It's just very off road. You have to have the right vehicle, that kind of thing. So then they think, hang on, maybe someone at the campsite was involved, right? Like go straight to the source. And now they're thinking, well, Isaac seems to be the odd one out of the family. You know, he's sort of like fifth wheel. Literally called weird.

Literally called weird by the grandpa. So they did a background check on him and he had a criminal history and his criminal history included an assault and battery charge. So now they're thinking, well, this guy has a past of violence, you know, this is a red flag. And as this information is coming out, of course, the public picks up on this. And of course, there now there's this guy who's not in the family who got taken. So it seems like the perfect fit, right? Like this beautiful family goes

on a trip and they bring this weird guy and now he abducts a child. And so basically public opinion turns against Isaac pretty immediately. But the original stories Jessica Bob and Vernal all agreed Like their storylines all matched up that Isaac was fishing at the stream When the you are disappeared because they went to go meet up with them and therefore it didn't make sense that he could have been involved sure for what it's worth Isaac never changed his story and Three other adults who said he was down at the river fishing, he said he was at the river fishing, it was hard to believe that he, that they would have all lied on his behalf for some strange reason. And so they pretty much couldn't pin him to

anything. But here's what's weird. Although Isaac's story never wavered, the same could not be said for Jessica and Vernal, the parents of Dior. Their stories were all over the place and were completely inconsistent over and over again, to the point that investigators' eyebrows had been raised pretty immediately. One major discrepancy in the story was revealed when the gas station attendant refuted the story that Dior's dad, Vernal, had told the police. And I don't know if you remember, but the story was that he was pumping the car with diesel and the attendant was like really loved kids and was like playing peek-a-boo with

him. Exactly. So what investigators did, this is just the shit I love. They go back to the gas station and they find the attendant and they find the attendant who had been working on that car and they talk to him and they say, do you remember this guy? And he says, yep. He says, do you remember playing with Dior?

And he goes, excuse me? And he's like, do you remember playing with Dior? And he goes, excuse me? And he's like, do you remember playing with the kid? And he goes, no. And he says, do you remember seeing a car seat? And he says, yeah, I mean, I saw a car seat. But there was no kid. But no kid. So they dumped their own kid somewhere.

Well, we don't know. We don't know. This is the first discrepancy, okay? That the kid seemingly wasn't there No, we don't know. This is this is the first discrepancy. Okay. Mm-hmm But he the kid seemingly wasn't there or at least The stories don't line up. He claimed he never even interacted with her saw the child Jessica and vernal also told opposing stories about when they were buying Tampons at the general store because Jessica said she took Dior into the general store where that strange man was staring at her but meanwhile Vernal said oh he stayed outside with

me while Jessica shopped and these are like simultaneous interviews happening you know so they're giving not different time there's not a different time simultaneously giving completely different accounts of what happened. Gotcha. So huge red flag. I mean, you know, they give them a little bit of benefit out of like, well, maybe they're in shock, you know, or whatever, but they're just raising a lot of eyebrows. In fact, there were more fanciful tales that vernal kind of wove, uh, that were proven to be untrue. For example,

he said that Dior loved trucks and he was so excited when they got to the store and there was a Budweiser delivery truck parked up front. Vernal said the Budweiser delivery driver was so excited to see Dior and how excited he was about trucks and he even let Dior sit in the truck. And when investigators, knock knock, tracked down the delivery driver who was there that day, he said, that never happened. I never interacted with a man and his son. In fact, it would have been completely against policy. I would never put a child in my truck. And what's more is I don't park in front of the store.

I park behind it. There's no way I would have run into customers in the front of the store. Right. But the conflicting accounts don't stop there because Jessica actually originally told police that Isaac, the the weird guy on the trip, had banged on the windows of the car that morning and woken them up by shouting, wakey, wakey, eggs and bakey. Ooh, and-

On my own damn trip and you're the gas and you're gonna wake me up on my trip? Oh my God. Exactly. And she said it was about eight, eight 30 in the morning. So she says like, we all kind of stumble out and he's cooking breakfast and she was all pissed off, right? But later investigators asked Jessica,

so, you know we're recovering that day who made breakfast that day she said I did and then they go cut to Vernal who made breakfast that day without hesitation he says I did so it's like wait a minute all of them have been make breakfast like you said he made breakfast and then banged on your car window. Wakey-wakey eggs and bakey Yeah, you and I watched the interview where she said she made breakfast she said we had eggs we had bacon and some toast And they said who made it and she said oh I did And it's like well, that's weird because you said he made you all breakfast and then woke you up. But all that aside

It becomes more damning because according to some other sources, Isaac slept until nearly noon and said the whole family was already up when he got out of his tent. Oh, okay. So it's like somebody's... Something's going on, yeah. ...telling the truth. Investigators considered that the trauma of losing your child, the shock of this all might explain like why these memories are conflicting, like who woke up first, who made breakfast, yes, those could be simple confusions or like you said, maybe they both contributed and so they misspoke, but the more elaborate stories like the gas station attendant, the delivery driver, elaborate stories like the gas station attendant the delivery driver it just was a little more difficult to explain like why somebody would lie about that.

And my i mean my thinking is he is partial truth right like he saw a budweiser truck. And to make it sound believable his story he was like oh we saw the truck and you know dear loves trucks he like got to and then I bet you the police asked did you interact with the truck driver? Oh, yeah You know saw me like I bet you he's just telling these truths not thinking they're literally gonna find the truck driver who delivered Budweiser That morning, you know what I mean? Yeah, I think they underestimated that there's only a hundred people they could Day so it's sort of like anybody you kind of point to like it's pretty easy to clear them and it's very weird that you're anybody you kind of point to, like, it's pretty easy to clear them. And it's very weird that you're lying about it, like that you're making up stories, whether or not you did anything nefarious. It's very strange that you're making up like, oh, he, he like held my son and put him in the truck.

And the guy's like, what the fuck? No, like I would never do that. You know, it's just weird stories continue to diverge the more that Jessica Vernal and we haven't quite heard from great grandpa Bob yet either as far as he's just sitting there with his oxygen, his oxygen going, huh? You know, I just, weirdly he was like, I, I just lost the kid and I thought I couldn't get worse. And now everyone's a suspect. Now we're all in the middle of it. We're in the thick of it.

So speaking of Bob, Bob said to police, no one asked him to watch Dior. Oh. He said, Jessica never insisted. And she didn't say it like, oh, she's lying. He said like, they said, do you remember Jessica, your granddaughter asking you to watch Dior? And there's this like really long pause where he's like really thinking and he goes, I don't.

So really, he does not remember anybody asking him to watch Dior while the group went to the creek with Isaac. In the end, the entire day has become this sort of like mismatched timelines, everything's off, if you move one piece the whole thing falls apart, somebody's lying, it's hard to tell who, you know, it's just, it's very convoluted. The only person, seriously, who's remained consistent is Isaac, and he told reporters that federal and local investigators requested he not share any more information with the media because it's still an active investigation.

Sure. But by the way, later Jessica claimed that she suspected Isaac suddenly, like in a later interview. She said, and I don't understand this exactly, but she said that she saw him carrying a shovel with blonde hairs that belonged to her son on the end of the shovel. And it feels like you just didn't mention that sooner. Or if it just happened, you know, why, like what can we do? And so when, I guess when they asked, like, can we get access to this or anything? All all it says is the wind blew them away. I don't know if she claimed the wind blew them away. I don't know if like

interesting There's if I don't know quite what happened there except that jess It's just worth noting that even though jessica originally said we followed isaac to the river and left deor with grandpa Now she's suddenly like oh he had a shovel with my son's hair on it. It's just, this poor Isaac guy, he was already like, like picked and primed to be the weird guy. Who's he's just like, I literally didn't do anything. Why I called him the weird guy because I'm like, he just gets such a, like that's what becomes his whole persona in the media, et cetera, You know, like any documentary, especially when he felt weird already.

Yeah, exactly. About even going. He was like, I shouldn't have gone. And now exactly. And like he obviously shouldn't have. And then he had to hear everyone on Earth call him weird. And he's like, I am the least fucking weird person here. He did call him weird. And it's like, hang on. He's the only one telling the truth here, right?

Like, I don't know, or at least sticking to his story. Now, this is where things get like really sketchy and like, we start to unravel some stuff because Frank Vilt was a retired US Marshal and he had extensive missing persons experience. Now, he heard about this little boy because of course this was pretty sensational and he offered to work for the family as a private investigator and help them get to the bottom of it. But shortly after beginning working on the case he abruptly removed himself from the case, submitting a resignation letter. Uh-oh.

And to the family. And at first that resignation letter was not public, but it was later made public by him. And this is what the letter said. Here's an excerpt. In my professional opinion, both of you lied and misrepresented true facts that could solve the mystery of your missing son. I believe that the searches will all be non-productive. The searches are only used by

you to cover a possible crime that one or both of you may have committed." And this is from a retired US Marshal who offered to do pro bono work for them. Yeah, that's, what did he discover? Talk about damning, right? Which like don't, I don't know if you have to rescind yourself. I don't know all the rules, but like, isn't it like, well, once you find something that makes. Well, he's not a lawyer. He was just, he was just an investigator. He wanted to do private investigating for them. So he offered to like help them get to the bottom of the case and was like,

no, apparently I don't know the details, but I do know that part of the letter also said, you know, you wouldn't let me make this case. Like he was willing to put money out there for answers. Yeah. And they refuse to let that go national is what he says. They refuse to post a public reward and spread word. That's not good. Yeah, he said in the letter basically that this is his accusation, but he basically said,

I offered to put my own money up. I offered to spread this nationwide internationally and you resisted and said no. And I can't imagine why you would have done that unless you are covering for crime. Interesting. Okay. So that was the letter that came out. And of course, that was like its own whole, you know, plot twist, right? Like that's really alarming. And then a second private investigator working with the family was fired because he also

spoke out about being suspicious of the parents and he was actually sued. Vernal sued him for slander and the case was dropped but basically like it's just kind of red flags everywhere. Yeah is there anyone who does believe them? Yeah yeah I mean yeah especially because it's unsolved you know there's really no evidence pointing at the parents, right? Or anyone specifically. I can tell you my theory at the end, but I'm curious to hear what you think. But in 2016, the Lemhi County Sheriff officially named Jessica and Vernal suspects in the disappearance of their son because they felt they had enough on

them. Then, of course, the public quickly turned on them, their entire websites, like theorizing what they did to their son. But I want to be clear again, like there is no physical evidence to substantiate any of this. You know, there's weird timelines, there's hypotheticals and there are theories, but there's really no physical evidence that we have to back any of this up. Except for maybe blonde hairs on a shovel that blew away in the wind. So Jessica and Vernal ultimately broke up, and whether that was due to the stress of the case or any other reason, we don't know.

But they did start to get a little dicey with each other, as in to kind of shift some blame on the other partner. You know, I mean, I imagine after a divorce and this is still active in your sphere, like I imagine you'd probably start to sour on the other person. But it was just weird because I feel like if they were both innocent, they would both at least still stand united on that. Like you don't want to... Isn't that interesting, Em? Is that interesting?

I guess, yeah. Although, I also feel like what if you felt guilty and like you didn't want to be... You were like, if I point the finger first, like then... Maybe. Maybe they both didn't believe each other because I would think they would have come up with an alibi together if they were... Maybe they both suspected each other instead of something happening with both of them maybe

Yeah, maybe maybe like they both suspected each other. Well, here's what I'll like quote them directly. So Jessica said in an interview Quote Vernal is a type of person that will tell you what you want to hear. I don't 100% know if he's capable or incapable of hurting my child or not and if they can prove that vernal had something to do with it, I'll believe it. That's pretty fucking, that's pretty fucking bold to say about the father of your child seriously. Like if I, my parents went to some very bitter divorcesces I don't

think that they would know well I guess unless they really believed it I don't think they would say yeah I think they didn't even they weren't even a united friend on it from the beginning I think seems like it because they told stories conflicting stories immediately yeah I feel like if something happened and both of them witnessed it they would be be like, what's our story? versus them already getting caught in the crosshairs of that. Yeah. And then it's odd. And then for someone to immediately go, oh, yeah, I would believe it. It's like, well, if you were there with him the whole time,

then he would have believed that he didn't do that. You know, and she's saying it vaguely enough by saying like, I don't know if he could or could not hurt my child, but I wouldn't believe it. Then it's like, well, then you've you're saying he probably could, you know what I mean? Anyway, it's just feels like a little bit of a talk around. One investigator on the case believes Dior may have died in an accident. And that's kind of, to me, the most likely theory, you know, is that This is all speculation. Nobody has been charged or You know put on trial for this I just want to say for my own dumb little brain that I was thinking about it and my feeling on it is like maybe

Jessica maybe he was following Jessica and his mom and dad and maybe he tried to turn back and they were like oh yeah go back to grandpa or something and maybe something happened oh yeah maybe and instead of and because they were so perhaps racked with guilt terrified who knows panicked like who knows what happened but I feel like it's very possible that an accident occurred either one of them felt responsible and panicked and tried to turn the story into a little bit more like, no, no, we left him with grandpa, remember? And grandpa was like, I don't remember you leaving me with, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, maybe there was some communication that didn't get

through and who knows? Who knows? But I feel like the most likely thing is maybe an accident. I also well, I don't know what do two year olds freak out if like someone they don't know grabs our hand and walks them away? Because like, would we have heard a sound if someone else took so that was one of the abduction thing a theories but that road is so isolated that like that's what they were saying is that you would have heard a car right there's no way they would that somebody I mean unless I guess they like bicycled there but it's it just feels like unlikely and I also feel like I mean she did describe him as a very

independent two year old. So I'm like, maybe he just and not clinging, you know, so I mean, this could be the he literally could have wandered off. Maybe he was being watched by grandpa and grandpa can't bring himself to say like, yeah, I remember. Maybe he really didn't hear her say watch him. You know, who knows? Could be the John Banne Ramsey situation. Just a fucking owl came in and just swooped him up. Yeah, I mean they could That was the staircase but you know, whatever I know like a random fucking owl theory exists I thought it was John certainly not John, but a Ramsey although maybe we should add it to the cannon

You know what at this point it's as plausible but I thought the theory you meant was about the brother and I'm like, oh It's like maybe a sibling. I was like wait. No, they weren't with siblings No, I mean I think honestly the if he went fishing I feel like the only thing that could have happened is if someone was Quick enough with it. They could have thrown him in the water and he drowned like I mean I really But there's like see any motive for killing a baby though. Like there's no motive, right?

So it's like, I feel like it must have been an accident. And I think they didn't want to admit it, whether it was negligence, whether it was a freak accident and they just didn't want to admit they were involved or whether they felt responsible, right? Because like maybe she told him to go back by himself. He's a big boy. Who knows? Like I'm making up hypotheticals, but yeah, I just feel like there are so many ways that you could accidentally feel responsible and then like spend your whole life covering it up because you don't

want to face it. I'm not saying that's what happened. Yeah, it sounds like it was just a freak accident. But either way, even if they have no clue what happened, his remains have never been found and it's like, we don't know. So whatever happened, it's like very, very tragic for the family either way, right? Like, it's definitely bad, but it's just horrible. It's just horrible. And it also sucks because like, if it was just like You know either negligence or like people like just an accident

All of a sudden the whole family is turned against each other for late It was something they didn't have to I know ever question each other on sounds so heartbreakingly It feels like something out of a novel You know like some really like dark family history stuff that yeah like skeletons in the closet that kind of shit if that is you know what actually happened, but, um, we don't know. I will say that the investigator who believes that, uh, Dior may have died in an accident and the adults felt the need to cover it up. Um, he believes that Dior's remains are still near the spot where he disappeared.

And in the people investigates, um, coverage they did, he said, we are still actively working on this right now as I speak to you. Wow. Like to the audience. So apparently... And how old would he be now? Well, so he was born in 2012. So he'd be 23, 13? 13.

December 2012. Yeah, 13. So 12, yeah, I guess. Oh, yeah. Oh, it's just too, it's just so tragic. And he was such a little cutie pie. So here are the last couple things here. Vernal and Jessica maintain their individual innocence in Dior's disappearance, even if they sometimes like raise eyebrows at each other. But, you but you know that aside Jessica has said in interviews that she feels deep down that Dior is alive And well somewhere in the world hmm so she suspects someone kidnapped him and raised him as their own child which Just feels like maybe that mom with the two kids had three kids by the end of it

I don't know. I don't. There was no other people in the woods I know it just feels like such a stretch like, you know when they say like Occam's razor like yeah I mean, of course, that's what you would want to believe. I'm not I'm not I'm not Faulting her for like we're pro. Hope. Yes. Yes, and I you know, hopefully that is what happened and that he's alive and well and happy But you know, it just feels like I doubt that that's really is what happened and that he's alive and well and happy but um you know it just feels like i doubt that that's really actually what happened um some of dior's extended family believe he was abducted as well but they typically believe he was abducted murdered and buried in the forest the only hope is that somebody will either find his remains and we'll get some more answers um or that someone will come forward with information

that gives the family closure. But for now the case remains open. There have been a lot of rumors also surrounding it. There was one rumor that one of the investigators or maybe one of the I forget who exactly it was claim that they saw the jacket and boots in the family's home that he was wearing that day. Interesting. OK. And I need I don't know that I don't think that's been like officially verified, but there's there's a lot of talk around this case. And so I think as far as unsolved cases go, this might be one we actually do eventually get answers on.

I hope. Yeah that's yeah there's there's no real answer. You would think with only like five people involved like it would be a easier conclusion but wild. Yeah it is you know you just gotta you but then you wonder how many people even know what happened. Like maybe only one person knows. And. Yeah, that's wild. Yeah, who knows? It's just really sad. So that is my story. Anything to add before we we head to our yappy hour so I can have a little glass of vino.

No, come to our shows and read our books and listen to our Yappie Hours and solve crime if you can figure it out, because it would really help us out. It would also give us a material to update people with. So do your part. Online investigators unite. No, I got nothing. what do you got just then let's let's just go to yuppie our we'll have a glass of wine hang out there if anyone wants to join you can come it's patreon.com slash at WWD podcast I believe and yeah otherwise like M said we're on tour go down that's right drink dot-com slash live and hopefully we'll see you out and about boot and a boot

out and about and we don't even have a Canada date do we? That was rude. That felt like a spoiler that wasn't real. Felt like you're kicking the crotch to Canada. Sorry everybody. And you, my bad. Yeah and? That's why we drink.