And That's Why We Drink - E442 Interdimensional Naps and Synchronicity Seafood Dinners

Episode Date: July 27, 2025

It’s Episode 442 and we’ve crossed many deserts and come back from the beyond to be here! This week Em takes us to Halifax for the haunted Five Fishermen Restaurant where Christine and Blaise actually had dinner for their first anniversary! Then Christine covers the tragic and disturbing case of Rachel Winkler from California. And remember sometimes the world needs to bend to your will… and that’s why we drink! Photo Links:The Five FishermenHalifax explosion funeralRachel WinklerCameron Airpark Estates speed limit signs Want to hear more from us? Subscribe to our bonus Yappy Hours on Patreon or Apple Podcasts! http://patreon.com/ATWWDPodcast___________________Go to http://quince.com/DRINK for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Listeners of And That's Why We Drink can qualify to see a registered dietitian for as little as $0 by visiting http://FayNutrition.com/DRINK. Grab an Angry Orchard Cider today. Don’t Get Angry. Get Orchard. Please Drink Responsibly Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to http://RocketMoney.com/drink today. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I need a job. Oh. Okay. Do I? What? I don't know. I was like, oh shit, what a time to tell me, right when we're about to start a zip recruiter ad.

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web address ziprecruiter.com slash drink right now to try it for free. Again, that's ziprecruiter.com slash drink. ZipRecruiter, the smartest way to hire. Hello, everyone. We made it. Against all odds, they said it couldn't be done. And here we are. It feels like that on my end. I had quite a travel palooza and not in a good way to get here. So I've been traveling a lot and I came in last night. So it feels like I crossed many deserts to be here. What about you? Yeah, no, I feel like you've crossed many deserts to be here. I was also on the opposite coast. We switched places. I was on in California with Beach Two Sandy and then I left my laptop there. You were so good at that. Why wouldn't I? You know? In San Diego, probably the farthest place I could have left it or no, sorry, Sacramento.

Even farther probably. And they had to mail that back and that cost me a cool like 150 bucks to get that back to me. And yeah, it came back. So it crossed deserts with you as you crossed deserts to get here. And we were like moving things around and pushing dates and things kept getting in the way. And man, oh man, it just feels like it took forever to get here. And I feel like I haven't seen you in like two months.

It feels like that, but I mean, no, three weeks though. That does feel like a lot. It literally couldn't have been, but it just feels like a very long time. No, the last time I saw you was on the beginning of my journeys in North Carolina and I was in that hotel. Oh yeah, the hotel, no wonder. So it feels like forever since you've even been

in this spot where you are. Welcome home. Thank you. How does it feel? Was it weird to smell your house? It's always weird to me when I smell my house after being gone for like a month. Well, the fact that it still smells like skunk

certainly was the weird part. Oh no, well mine smelled like cat pee and I went, uh oh, how long has this been going on? Well, I've been traveling for like fun though, but you traveled like for work, how's tour going? I'm just dead inside. No, it's been really fun and I feel like California was cool because we got to see, you know,

some people like our editor Zoe and it was like cool to reconnect with people and be in the sunshine for a while. So that was lovely but man, oh man that time difference kicks me right in the butt when I come back and You know, I'm just getting back in the swing. It's been home for about seven days time to Get back to normal and then leave again soon. But yeah, we're trying to sell more tickets people. You're doing great buying tickets. We have been having the best time. If you wanna come to any of our shows,

Omaha, Plano, all the rest, you can, bhtsandy.com. But yeah, it's been really, really fun. Just, you know, a lot of traveling's hard. It's just like a lot of work. I like everything about traveling except the airports. I'm just so over it. That's what I mean, like it's hard, Em. It's just like a lot of work. I like everything about traveling except the airports. I'm just so over it. That's what I mean, like, it's fun, but then it's like when you're like, especially like,

cause we were going like city to city to city, and it's like, God, after you take like two flights, like six flights within the state of California in like 48 hours, you're like, what the fuck am I doing? Like, what is this life? I'm sure you're still living it, but the one thing that always made you and me and Eva grown all at the same time

was when we just land somewhere and we're still in the airport. And then we would get a text on our phone saying, check in for your next flight within 24 hours. And it would be so happy. And it'd be like, congrats, you're about to fly, yay. And I'm like, fuck you, I just needed it. I can't even take my seatbelt off yet.

I'm not even at baggage claim and I'm having to check in for my next flight now, yeah. Oh, it's so rude. Oh man, yeah. But how are you, how was being home for real? I really- It was a long journey you were on. I just got home at like two in the morning.

Jesus. It's been a long run. Yesterday something was going on in Denver and that was my layover and so to get there sucked and then to leave sucked, there was delays nonstop. I was supposed to be home by like seven at night and I didn't get home until like one or two in the morning. So on the way home. Yeah.

Anyway, that was kind of stinky, but I got to see the little puppy and I haven't seen him in three weeks. I feel like he thought I officially abandoned him. What is he like? You said he's, is he not a baby? He grew up. He I feel like he took some sort of serum and is now a giant. I don't know what happened.

But he's he his bark is lower. I'm like, did your voice fucking change? I feel like the house that are just left in different dog here. But he's like instead of her, it's her. And I'm like, oh, my God. He's grown into a man. And he has less puppy skin and his waist is spilling out. He used to be a little lean, mean fighting machine. And now he's like a dog.

So anyway, it was very nice to see him last night. He's been extra cuddly, which is very nice. He's pulling a geo. He's learning very quickly that a suitcase means you're leaving. So he does not like the suitcase. They pick up on that quickly. Which is amazing,

because he acts pretty stupid everywhere else, but you know what a suitcase is. So anyway, I'm excited to be home, although I am probably very socially burnt out. I don't think I realized that I've been quote on for many weeks in a row now. I was with Alison's family, I was with friends, I was with my family.

I'm exhausted. I can't wait to just take like a depression out. Well, that's the other part of traveling. It's like, even when it's fun, it's like you get home and you're beat. Yeah, cause you're also at the mercy of other people's time and everything. Yeah, my least favorite thing to be.

So anyway, how are you being home? When do you head back out? I don't fucking know anymore, Em. I just lose track. Just white-knuckling it, huh? Help! I think we have Indianapolis and Detroit next, which I'm really excited about,

because we can drive to those. Midwest, you know. So that'll be fun. I'm very jealous of you going to Indianapolis. I haven't spent a lot of time there. We had a show... I don't think anyone's ever said that sentence be fun. I'm very jealous of you going to Indianapolis. I haven't spent a lot of time there. I don't think anyone's ever said that sentence out loud. No offense, Indianapolis. Well, you know, I'm trying to like explore.

The best I had was we had a show in Indianapolis on our last tour. Like really recently, like the last tour, yeah. It was one of those ones we flew in from another city that morning, did Indianapolis, and then we had to leave at like 6 a.m. to get the next flight. So we had like an afternoon there before the show. I love you, Indy. It's really not the most exciting place. It's a cool town. I've been there a few times. After Cedar Rapids, anything's interesting.

Okay, all right. Well, I'll let you... That was crazy. I wouldn't know, but you do. But yeah, so listen, we're not sold out. Come on down. When is it? I don't know. Okay.

Does that help? Anyway, but I wanna say, oh, I know what I was gonna say. I forgot, because we haven't talked in eight years, but when we hopped on, in my head you were gonna say, why do you drink this week? And I was gonna say, or and what do you drink? And I gonna say I'm drinking iced coffee because I

just came back from the beyond like I love that I bought I was out of this planet and like I don't usually take naps like that I came back and I was like where have I been I love the interdimensional and I told I was like you have to tell em you went into the beyond you have to tell em when we get on You're saying that because I say that right? Yeah. Yeah, okay I don't know if you knew that that I use that verbiage to it was like the first thing that popped in my head And I went oh my god. I get it. It really feels like you've left. You've left earth here in the beyond Yeah, I was doing like a yoga nidra. Have you heard of yoga nidra? Of course?

It's my newest like metaphysical obsession as always. I have one going at all times at least a few and I don't It's this basically this It's like deep or psychic rest they call it so you're not Unconscious you're sort of in that like half asleep state, but it's meant, and you're meant to stay awake, but it's sort of like, it's really good for your nervous system and all that good stuff and fatigue and that kind of thing. And I was like, well, there's no way I can really like stay awake during it. So I was like, oh,

I'll just set an alarm and I'll listen to it. But I think I stayed awake for the full 45 minute thing. And I was like in that weird, like almost, and she even said in the in the in the intro like um some people enter like astral plane because you're kind of in that in between and I'm like I didn't I don't think I did that but I was like very half and I remember laying there and going oh my god I feel like my body is like recovering like while I was conscious but like completely still it was like my body was asleep,

but my brain was awake, you know? Interesting. Did you like that? I feel like I would hate that. Well, it was so calming, I think, because of like the way that they do the meditation. And it's just like a meditation. So you don't really feel like anything's happening.

But like about 45 minutes in, I was like, like sometimes she'll say like, make sure you're still awake or something. And I'm like, oh yeah, here I am. And I'm like, oh, I was like, sometimes she'll say like, make sure you're still awake or something. And I'm like, oh yeah, here I am. And I'm like, oh, I feel my body. And then after that, my alarm went off and we had about 20 minutes before we recorded. So I was like, I'm gonna take a 15 minute real nap.

And then it was like- Good for you. Out there. And I don't know what happened, but I came back and I was like, I'm a new person. I'm so proud of you. Woo, I got a huge coffee. I'm so proud of you. Woo, I got a huge coffee. I'm feeling great.

Oh, oh, oh, and during it, it was started to thunderstorm and I was imagining it. Forget it. I woke up and I was like, thunderstorming, and I was like, this is the most perfect nap I wish I could bottle it up and like bring it with me. Oh my God, I'm so jealous of you. I would give anything. It was really special. I just was very excited about it

So so that's why I am today. Well done. I'm I I strive for that feeling I want to chase that high for the rest of my life I know well, I'm going to start cuz I get it now well the anytime I will say the closest to hypnotize I've ever been is when a Thunderstorm happens and I'm already in my REM cycle. Mm-hmm. And I'm like, there's just there's no coming back. There's something about thunder while you're like a bat, like in the process of actually falling unconscious. That's well, asleep.

Let's say asleep. Not the biggest sleep, but like a medium sleep. That's just so soothing. I don't know if I sometimes I'll like play thunderstorm sounds and I'm trying to nap, but I have to like, I have to like warn people. Like I'm not going to be around for like four hours. Like, Oh yeah, this is about to be asleep. This is no, this is no child's play nap. Um, well I'm very excited for you. Did you dream at all? Or were you just fucking out of sight?

I was almost like in this but I was like it was like I was like here like present in my and I was like I'm feeling my whole body that's beautiful it's the weirdest thing I mean you guys if you don't use yoga nidra you should try it the ones on youtube that I listen to have helped me fall asleep have helped my insomnia tremendously um because they say like even if you fall asleep during it, it's like a really nice muscle relaxation then you fall asleep. And even then like it still has of course benefits

like sleep, which otherwise I don't get. So yeah, I'm really excited about this. I'm taking like a, you know the app Insight Timer? It's like a meditation app. I'm doing like a five day yoga nidra thing. So we'll see. Nice. Anyway, but yeah, that's where I am. So I'm a little bit like.

In a fun spot. Yeah. But I know you're tired. You're probably beat. I don't think I know how tired I am yet. I think I'm still in a good spot. Oh, that's good. But when we stop recording,

then I'm gonna, oh my God. Like, cause I think this is the last thing that my body knows to hold on for. It's like get through the thunderstorm sounds. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, I also today I have like, I'm trying to make this like a big Aaron day cause is Al home with you by the way. Still know where is she? She's still in the Carolinas. She's been there since like, I think April at this point.

I thought she comes back since like, I think April at this point. I thought she comes back. No, I, the whole thing was I was, I was in North Carolina because I, I surprised her because it was like the halfway mark of her being gone. Jesus Christ. I know. So I saw her, but I saw her with her family and then we went to Denver for our anniversary. Happy belated. Thank you. And we saw. Wow. That's. Oh, how was your thing? I I don't even know if I should like bring it up here. I feel like I should. I guess because I'm worried about too much,

spending too much time talking about it. I've been trying to get Allison and I tickets for years for us to go to this restaurant called Casa Bonita. Yeah. In Denver. And I always heard it's just like the weirdest restaurant in the world. And I was like, well, obviously, we have to go. And then they opened up reservation slots and one happened to be on our anniversary. And I didn't even know if I was going to see Allison. I didn't have any plans yet. I just booked it.

And then I was like, oh, shit, now we have to go to Denver. Sometimes the world just has to bend to your will. You know what I mean? You know, say that louder for everyone that's not listening. That was beautiful. What I just said. Somebody write Eva, write that down, please. Well, Casa Bonita is, in fact, the weirdest fucking place I've ever been. Is it? It's this big.

We can post pictures maybe for social media, but it was this big pink castle building in a strip mall, by the way. It's not even its own standalone place. The first weird thing is it's in a strip mall next to a laundromat or something. And it's a big pink castle. Well, in Denver, I pictured it would be on top of a mountain or something.

I know. Well, you don't have to worry about a mountain because inside they have cliffs with cliff divers. Excellent, what? During the show. Oh my God. It's a Mexican restaurant. Sure, obviously. Every so often, every certain time slot, What? During the show. Oh my God. It's a Mexican restaurant. Sure.

And then- Obviously. Every so often, like every like certain time slot, there's these like beautiful waterfalls and cliffs and they have like a cliff diver show. I feel like you called it like a grownup rainforest cafe or am I imagining that? That feels right.

Maybe that's something else, but it does still fit, I think. Someone else called it like if Disneyland and Mexican restaurants had a baby or something. Okay, all right. Because I actively tried to not learn anything about it, because I was like, I want it to be weird for me, too. And so as soon as Alison and I got in there, they're like, and over here is the puppet show, and this is where the face painting

and balloon artist is. And also, there's a magic show on the bottom floor. And the puppet show, I got to say, was fucking fantastic. Yeah. And then there's like a puppet show. There's caves to crawl through. It's very it's a weird place. And they've got stores, obviously. And then they have a fortune telling bird.

Cool. Why did I? I sorry, I didn't mean to jump over the fortune telling bird, but that's awesome. The food I I will say the food is like not what you're there for. And also, I'm very blessed to live in Los Angeles, where like I can be kind of critical of Mexican food. It was fine. But like, you're not there for the food is like not what you're there for. And also I'm very blessed to live in Los Angeles where like I can be kind of critical of Mexican food. It was fine, but like you're not there for the food. You're there to like kind of get fed and then walk around. And then talk to the parrot. That's gonna tell you all about your future.

The only thing I really knew about it is that this place like there was like an episode of South Park that even like talked about how weird it is. Oh, I think you mentioned that, yeah. And then when I got there, the waitress was like, oh, just so you know, like the puppet show is like a little X-rated, don't forget who owns this place. And I went, who owns this place?

And she was like, South Park. And I went, what? And apparently- They own it? I was like, that's why they have a fucking episode on it. Cross promotion. No wonder, damn. Anyway, it's very weird.

It was very worth it. The fact that that marketing worked on you, cause I know No wonder, damn. Anyway, it's very weird, it was very worth it. The fact that that marketing worked on you, because I know you used to watch South Park. The fact that that marketing worked on you this many years later is amazing. I haven't forgotten. And it's been mentioned in like, it's canonically, biblically accurate, if you will,

in Meow Wolf lore. Oh, okay, wow, so they're really hitting you in all of the spots, yeah. Yeah, which by the way, there's also a Meow Wolf in Denver, so that's where Alison and I also went. Now does South Park own me a wolf, too, because this is starting to sound a little. That one's owned by family.

Oh, my God. I really believed you for a second. I was like, holy shit. Anyway, I've talked way too much, but it was it was a good anniversary. I'm glad that I made an impulse purchase and Alison just sighed and flew there, which was nice. I love that. Yay, I told you that sometimes, what did I say Eva? Sometimes the world has to bend to your will. That's right.

Let's all chance it until it's true for all of us. Please, that would be great. But yeah, well, you know what? Sometimes we have extra long intros when things are crazy. The last thing I'll say though is isn't your anniversary soon? Or was it already? Isn't your anniversary in July?

Well, our wedding anniversary is October 13th. Oh, maybe that's what it is. I just remember- We do have a technical secret wedding anniversary when we got like secret married the first time, which was the seventh. We never remember it. July 7th. Yeah, I think so. Well, to do anything for your anniversary since you don't know the date.

Totally. We had a great time. Let me see what we did. I'm sorry. We went blackberry picking. We actually did do something cute that day. It's beautiful. Who the hell knew? Were they good blackberries? They were fucking amazing. And then Leona and I made a pie. Great.

Thanks. It was really cool and fun. And I felt like a old timey mom. Felt like the Waltons on, or Little House on the Prairie or something. I did until I cut into it and it just poured everywhere and I went, oops, I've done it all wrong. Or oops, I did it per usual again.

I did it exactly how I knew I would do it. Okay, sorry, that's enough of all that. I thank you for asking, but I knew it would be a kind of a thing. Money please. Help, we don't know what to do. We were trying to figure out how to start talking about Rocket Money just now, and all that came out of our mouths was, money, please.

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I think you're going to like this one, Christine. This is an upscale seafood restaurant. Oh, I already do. I already like it. In Halifax, Canada. Oh, my favorite town. We have I been there to this restaurant. Oh, I was like, you've been to Halifax, girl. Yeah. I don't know that.

But Blaze and I were there on our wedding anniversary and we went to a really nice seafood restaurant, but it was also Canadian Thanksgiving, so a lot of places were closed. So I'm not sure. What's the name of it? Was it called Five Fishermen? Let me see.

That'd be so silly. I will be kind of freaked out. I don't think that was it. It's like a $4 sign kind of place. Yeah, we went to like a very fancy be kind of freaked out. I don't think that's like a like a four dollar sign kind of place. Yeah, we went to like a very fancy restaurant one of the nights. I'll ask Blaze. He might remember. But anyway, in the meantime, I don't think that's what it was called. OK, well, five Fisherman is the place.

It's in Halifax and it's on Argyle Street. Fun fact for anyone who cares about that. If you're if you happen to be listening to this on Argyle Street, take a turn. Maybe you'll see five. Maybe you'll get an expensive lobster tail. Well, so this place has a super interesting history. I would say just as interesting as the Ghosts. The building itself is one of the older ones in Canada, I think. It was built in 1817 is one of the older ones in Canada, I think. It was built in 1817, and it was built by a church that was across the street.

They were like, the kids need some education around here. Oh, I thought it was. I thought you meant as a seafood restaurant. No, sorry. The church was really expanding, just like Family Guy in South Park. Like, I'm just such a sucker. Okay, I get it.

They said, all of Noah's fish came right here. You know those shrimp that we saved. So, hmm, no, this, sorry. This is they made a school. They made a school. Okay. It was built by the church across the street, which fun fact is the oldest building in Halifax. Okay.

And they were like, there's either there's no schools here or there's no religious enough schools here. So we're gonna build a school across from the church so that we can keep an eye on all these kids and make sure that they're learning the right things, the right ways. About God all the time. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

So they built a religious school house. It was a religious school house at first. And it opened in 1818 and it was known as the national school. Fun fact, it was the first school in all of Canada to offer free education and it's something we still don't know here. I was going to say. 1818 USA.

Wow. That's how other people have been doing it. And because it was the first school in the country to do this, it is now a protected heritage site. Oh, cool. Okay. the first school in the country to do this, it is now a protected heritage site. Oh, cool. OK. After that, I guess the school got bigger and bigger and they just couldn't hold that many kids anymore. So it moved

and a woman ended up buying it and turned it into an art school. So the person who bought it, her name is Anna Leonowens, and she called it the Victoria School of Art and Design. And it was later renamed to basically Enscad, which is the Nova Scotia School, Nova Scotia College of Art and Design. Beautiful. Fun fact about her, the person who built this art school on top of the schoolhouse,

she was the governess to the children of the king of, is it Siam? And she'd go on to write about her experience as a governess there. Whoa, I bet that was interesting. So interesting it led to the musical, The King and I. Uh-huh, okay. I was like, I hope somebody did something with that story.

Hey, why don't I co-opt it and write a book. Why don't we buy the rot, the buy the rights. Fucking idiot. Sorry, I'm talking about myself. Sorry, everybody. So the former governess and now inspiration behind The King and I, she's the- That's so cool.

She's the one who bought the schoolhouse, turned it into what would become Enscad and it's still a college today. Gotcha, that's so cool. After it was the art school, or I guess it also got so big that it had to relocate, it was now empty again and for the third time need to be owned by somebody.

And it's like a success story. Every time somebody goes in there, they have to move on because they get so big. So, you know, it's like third time's a charm, let's go. You're exactly right. It's because the next company that moved in still exists today. See? And they moved in. It's very.

I don't know the right word is, but some sources, it doesn't totally add up what year this was bought, because I looked up when the art school opened and I looked up when this company that I'm about to say opened and it's they like overlap each other, so I don't know. Oh, I don't know the years. Just know that they both happened at some point. But so it was a schoolhouse and it was which like they all also have a weird like fun fact to them.

It's like it was the first free education in Canada schoolhouse. It's like a special building. They're like built of like very legitimate art and design college to this day. Okay. And found the picture. Ooh, well I can't tell by the lobster if it's from there. I know, but isn't it pretty? It's beautiful, and so is Blaze's chest. And his half zip, his quarter zip.

Loves a quarter zip. And that giant bottle of wine I ordered. Well, I know who you took home that night, the bottle of wine. Ha ha ha ha! Okay, but now I have to figure out where it is. Oh my God, okay, it's starting to look like it's close. It's at the St. Paul's Anglican Church.

That's the church that built the school across the street that becomes this restaurant. Shut up. Are you serious? Yes, St. Paul's Anglican Church is the one who created the schoolhouse because it was across the street. Blaise said, I think it's a five fisherman

because that has a lot of dollar signs and I remember it was expensive. Like I didn't say the name of it, I just said, what's the restaurant? And he said, I have no idea, I'm looking on Google maps. And he said, it looks like maybe the five fishermen. Em, that's crazy. And the fact that you brought up my anniversary

right before that. That is very weird. Hey, here's a picture of me. Well, here's a picture of my fucking dinner. That I remember being like, we have to save up money for the most expensive night. Cause it just was gonna be pricey as fuck. What year was that?

That was 2019. So it was our first wedding anniversary. Oh, well yeah, that is very odd. Yeah, we did it big. Well, we only went to Halifax cause Blaze had a conference at the conference center. So I spent all day wandering around shopping for you. Yeah, I still own all of it.

I like bought you an insane amount of shit. And then at night I would make and then I would spend all day making plans to where to eat and what goes toward to do that night. Of course. And yeah, so that's that's hilarious. Yeah, the way that you said and I didn't even say St. Paul's Anglican Church. I just said I was like that church.

That's so wild. OK, wow, that's crazy. OK, I'm telling Blaze right now that M is I didn't even know was haunted. It's like one of the most haunted places in Nova Scotia. This is crazy. OK, well, we've blaze. I've been trying to come up

with some sort of excuse to go back to Halifax, so OK, we'll go be there. Maybe this is crazy. Okay, well, we've, Blaze and I have been trying to come up with some sort of excuse to go back to Halifax, so. Okay, we'll go be there. Maybe this is it, maybe this is it. You just have to really eat that lobster again. I'm, I honestly, I'd pay big bucks for that. Actually, I know a reason that you can make an excuse to go back there.

I'll, I'm gonna tell you, I'm gonna tell you later in this. Oh, great, great, great. Okay, so it was a schoolhouse. It was the art school. And then the next successful business that came out of that is it was bought by Snow and Company Undertakers. Oh! No wonder I was drawn to this fucking place.

They were the city's very first mortuary. Wow. It still exists again at a different location, like everything else seems to, I guess. And now it is called the J.A. Snow Funeral Home. And I think now it's being ran by its fifth generation of Snow and Co. The fourth generation... Snow and Co. Undertakers, a sign from like the old timey Snow and Co. Undertakers would be so sick. Ins insane. Yeah, I say it's probably ran by the fifth generation because the fourth generation of J.A. Snow actually died in 2020.

I looked up his obituary. Of course, his funeral was held at Snow and Co. Why not? Apparently he was called his name was J.A. Snow, I guess the fourth, I'm assuming. They called him Snowy. Aw. And in his obituary, it said that Snowy liked sailing, curling, golfing, his morning coffee, a daily game of backgammon, and he made a mean eggs Benedict.

Oh, hey, this sounds like a strong fella. He looked like he was a burly, a good man. Yeah, like it, I like it. Another fun fact about Snow and Co. Undertaker, which by the way, I'm aware it's called like JNA, Snow Funeral, Snow and Co. should have stayed that. That's the good like nickname. That's like what we call it if like, you know, you know.

100%. Well, Snow and Co. Undertaker, they were the funeral parlor that many of the bodies for two major disasters in Halifax history had. Well, Blaze did just text me. Our waiter said it was haunted. I'm like, clearly I don't remember that. I was probably halfway through my bottle of wine.

Well, now you can tell him. I don't wanna spoil it, but he did say something after that that I do now recall. Should I read it? Sure. He said, it was above or next to where all the unclaimed bodies from the Titanic went. Like Blaze has a, no wonder Leona remembers

literally everything I've ever said to her and can like use it against me. Cause Blaze also creepy memory. Yeah. Encyclopedic. It's honestly upsetting sometimes. Well, yeah. So one of the reasons it was really haunted

is because it held all of the Titanic bodies. Jesus Lord I mean that makes sense. I like realizing it's a funeral home or yeah, that's a mortuary Wow Wow Oh that gave me shivers, dude. So I'm gonna talk about the Titanic real quick. Not now. Everyone knows the real quick We're just gonna like real quick Ever the funeral history of Halifax Amidst the Titanic I have been wanting someone to tell me this again since I did that one ghost tour in Halifax amidst the Titanic. I have been wanting someone to tell me this again since I did that one ghost tour in Halifax years ago.

When I was covering, when I was looking this up and everything, I was like, this is like right up Christine's alley. I can't wait. And I don't even really like care. I mean, I don't, I don't care. I'm not like a Titanic head. I don't even think I ever finished the movie. I just, when I went to Halifax, I didn't know this about Halifax and I think it blew my mind.

Yeah. And so I would love to hear it again. Well, the Titanic happened, boom, that's what happened. And then- There we go, big iceberg, et cetera. This was in 1912, in case anyone forgot the year. And this funeral parlor was where the bodies were brought before either going to their families for whatever they wanted to do next, or to a cemetery if those bodies were unclaimed.

And just so you know, the numbers suggest that only around like 60 people got to go back to their families and about 130 that were unclaimed. And this is the ones that went to the funeral parlor. There were like 150 or something that ended up being buried at sea because they were too unrecognizable and no amount of mortuary services could have helped them. So there was no, like, they weren't even willing to try to embalm or get a coffin for them.

Imagine having to be on a team to decide things like that. Like, that's so traumatizing to be like, who gets, who's worth bringing back and finding their family. Oh, that's so sad. And to know there's like 100 people in like the Halifax Harbor that they just had to leave there.

The funeral parlor was also responsible during rescue operations to preserve the bodies ASAP. And when I mean ASAP, I mean like Mr. Snow and Co. They literally got on boats with rescue teams to find bodies, pull them out of the water and immediately start bombing them. Ooh, boy. OK. So Snow and Co literally were the people saying, we can't help this one. Like, put them back in the water.

Like, they were the ones making those decisions, like you just said. Geez. OK, wow. Um, and I don't know who J.A. Snow the first was, but this guy like he must have been in a mob or something because he had connections all around in the funeral world. I guess if you're the if you're the funeral director, you probably do kind of start to know everyone. He had and they were the first mortuary in the city, but he must have been part of like a board of funeral homes all around Canada because when he got the call, the like, we want you to be like the. The funeral home handling all these bodies that are coming in by the hundreds. J.A. Snow called and helped from every undertaker, every undertaker in three provinces, and it was Nova Scotia, Newfoundland and.

Prince Edward Island, I think, and over 40 undertakers all came from wherever they lived to volunteer. And they had this massive operation. Mr. Snow also called in favors from casket manufacturers to stay late and make more coffins. He called undertakers if they had extra hearses and like 30 hearses from around Canada all came to help. He also made sure that the coroners were on site, like on the docks, issuing immediate death certificates

and burial permits so families could just take their body and immediately bury it wherever they wanted. I mean, I'm glad they were so conscientious about actually doing the process of death certificates and trying their best to connect their bodies with the right family. I mean, all the way down to like, he made sure every volunteer undertaker

like had smelling salts in case like people recognizing their family members like need were going to pass out from like, I mean, they had thought of everything. Geez. He apparently rented out a curling rank. Can't get more Canadian than that. Sure.

And it was like right next to the dock, I guess. And he turned it into a temporary travel portable morgue or mortuary so that all of the undertakers that were volunteering could all provide services right on the water as soon as they found the body. They immediately started doing all the stuff. One source called this temporary morgue in the curling rink. It must have been on the dock, like literally on the dock. So it was called the largest floating

embalming facility on earth. Jesus. And they were out on the- By Ripley's believe it or not. Everyone was like, Ripley, it's not like it's too soon. We're not here for that right now. Big R relax. You know what I'm saying? Big R, we know you're,

we want to jump in here, but you'll have your moment. Well, they were all out on the boats looking for bodies. They set up coffins and embalming stations at the port to work as soon as possible. Um, which it was very helpful that the bodies were in freezing cold water. Um, so a lot of them were frozen and then they could immediately work, but they were even pulling ice water out of the water to keep them frozen. Once they got on the dock. I mean, the services sounded so detailed.

I will say, I don't know how true this is, but one source said that only the first class passengers got immediate care. And then all- Yeah, that's what we learned as well. Okay, and then all the second and third class passengers had to like be brought to his mortuary further down the road to be taken care of.

Well, and I also remember hearing that, I wouldn't say a reason for it, but one of the kind of ancillary reasons for that is that a lot of people who were not first-class passengers, their families wouldn't have even been able to make it up to Halifax to claim the body, because if they came from an impoverished family or somewhere way rural out somewhere,

they were like, well, no one's gonna come get the body. So that makes sense. Cause one of the sources I saw said that a lot of third-class passengers, they ended up just telling them to just leave them at sea. Yeah, because they couldn't, I mean, they couldn't pay to go get them or anything. It's just sad.

Two of the bodies that they did find and that were immediately operated on or I don't know the right word is embalmed process were John Jacob Astor, the fourth, who is was apparently the richest guy on the Titanic. I know all about that guy. He had a lot of weird fun facts. Yeah. Oh, one day I'll just do a whole episode on him. I guess he's a weirdo. Yeah, you should.

Really? Okay. Yeah. And then Charles Hayes, who was the president of Grand Trunk Railway, he kept getting a shout out, but they were two very rich people, I guess. Yeah. And Snow and Co worked on that. Astor is like he's Astoria is named after him. He like, like owned the city of New York or something. He basically like he looked at Astoria is named after him. He owned the city of New York or something. He basically looked at Astoria,

which is now part of Queens, and he was like, I want that. And they just gave it to him. He was just this ultra wealthy guy. That's what I say about every rainforest cafe I run into. Give it to me. It's mine.

Here's a blank check, write a number. They're like, this got bounced. Anyway, so sorry, Hank's drinking. Can you hear? Okay, good. I'm trying though. It sounds like this. Oh, God, thanks. I started doing this thing with him where if I grab his mouth the right way and shake his head around, he just lets his tongue kind of hang out, and then all of a sudden you just hear like a weird, like, wet sloshing in his mouth. Ew!

You're such a freak. He, like, doesn't... He just loosens all the bichons and everything just kind of sloshes around there. Maybe that's good for his little jaw. Maybe. It's nice to know he gives up when I'm around. Yeah, it's really nice. Okay, so anyway, the Titanic was the first major disaster

that Snow and Co handled when they were operating in this building. I mean, shocking, they had to handle any major international disaster to begin with, but. Or that there was more to come. You'd think after the Titanic. I was gonna say, but the fact that it's the first one, I'm like, what happened next? I don't even know. Oh, I remember.

You want to sell? No. Because you don't remember. Well, OK. OK. It was this explosion of a, I think a naval ship. Yeah. Well done, Christine. Wow. I tell you, it's all coming back. It's all coming. Really is. Do you know why it does?

Because anytime someone says the word Halifax around Blaze and me, we go into our insane spiel about like the city of Halifax. It's the coolest place on the planet. And we tell all about it. We're just obsessed with it. And I like, you're obsessed with it. Like you have been since way before I was.

And it's just a really cool town. So yeah, I do remember, cause we talked a lot about on the ghost hunts and stuff, ghost tour, sorry. They talked about the explosion and stuff. Yeah, I'm glad we both love Halifax so much cause it's really random. Like I, we only went for Blaze's weird medical conference.

Like I don't think I ever would have expected my first time in Canada to be Halifax of all places. Did you know it has its own time zone? It's a farthest east time zone, even farther than Maine. I'm not, I didn't know that, but nothing surprises me when it's cool and it involves Halifax. I'm just like, I get it.

Agreed, good point, good point. If you told me, did you know that the grass is made of just like scraps of chocolate? I'd be like, great, what a type. That makes sense. So yes, there was five years after the Titanic, which five years later, imagine having like- First of all, I did not know it was five years later.

That's like from now to COVID. Do you realize that? That's like really, like in perspective. Imagine working at like the first of its kind mortuary. Like you're just trying to figure out your small business. The Titanic, you are solely responsible for every dead body in the town where all the dead bodies showed up. And everyone's finally coming down from that.

And then there's a big ass explosion that we're talking about a hundred years later. Jesus. So 1917, there's the Halifax explosion. That's exactly what it's called. There were two World War One warships. They collided into each other. One of them was carrying several explosives, inflatable chemicals. The explosion was so intense that, quote,

almost all of the northern part of Halifax was destroyed. The blast killed almost 2000 people. It injured 9000. It blinded 200. And the funeral parlor, they rolled up their sleeves and they went all right back to work. We go apparently even though the funeral parlor was not near the explosion. The impact rolled through the town and even the funeral parlors windows shattered from the blast.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, and they went well, there's a lot of shattered glass and there's about to be a lot of bodies in here too. So let's just get at it. Sweep it up and prep the embalming fluid. Onto the next one. So they handled most, if not all of the bodies that needed services. They were performing upwards of 40 funerals a day just to get through them.

Jeez, oh Pete. I mean, almost 2,000 deaths. Like that's a lot of funerals. At the same time, right? So it's not like staggered. I mean, not that it's better if it's staggered like an illness or like a, but just at the one time, I mean, that's shocking.

And I don't know anything about like funeral policy or anything, but I imagine you have to have a funeral within a certain window before there's like, it's like a health violation or something? I think there are, I think there are different ways. I don't, I don't know. I think that, um, like if it's cremation, it's different. But if it's like a body, like how long can you preserve a body?

You know, especially in 1917. Oh, maybe not back then. I think several, a couple of days, I think. But if there's 2000 deaths and you're doing 40 funerals a day, that's still like 50 days later, someone's getting a funeral. Yeah, it'd have to be like speeding through. Boy, so there were, I'm going to send you a picture. I don't know if we're allowed to post it or not.

We're still trying to figure out the rights to pictures and all that. Some people have been asking about like why we don't post photos on, about the stories on Instagram anymore. It's because we're trying to be more cautious about copyright. And we've gotten some people reaching out saying like, hey, this image is copyrighted, like from way ages back. So we're still working on that.

It's not intentional. We're just trying to be as safe as possible. We would like to not have any troubles. So- Yeah, we don't want any more trouble, okay? So now that we're trying to be as safe as possible. We would like to not have any troubles. So- Yeah, we don't want any more trouble, okay? So now that we're trying to be more about that, if for some reason we can't show it, I encourage you to Google Halifax Explosion funeral parlor or like coffins, because the picture I'm gonna show

Christine now is a picture when they were trying to do like 40 funerals a day, there were so many coffins that they were starting to stack up outside because they couldn't have enough room inside to store all the bodies Oh my god. There is a building here. Just about it's like the That's where you ate lobster by the way, oh my god Yeah, this is wild They are stacking up and like you can see a person standing in front of it. Like they're taller than a person. Yep. The stacks are taller than a person just lined up down the street.

Down the street. Like the entire block is just stacks and stacks of coffins. That's wild. So it was. I mean, I don't know. Obviously, you can't compare which one's worse, but imagine having the headache of the Titanic and them being like, at least nothing like that should ever happen again.

And now you literally have coffins stacking across the street because you're trying to get through them later. So anyway, the funeral parlor, they I think after those two explosions or two tragedies, imagine like the PR, though, of like, look what we can handle. You know, so they ended up getting so big that they still exist to this day, just at a different site. They moved out in 1975, flash forward, 1975 it became the five fishermen. It's been around since 75, wow.

And the part that I was saying why maybe you would want to go back with Blaze if you're looking for a reason, is because I think on the anniversary of the Titanic each year, they have a menu, a different menu than usual, where it's the menu of what people eat on the Titanic. Oh, that's dark, wow. Like the last meal or just like one of the meals?

Like they were able to preserve a menu and so now they just make that. Oh, a menu, okay, I thought it was like some weird like last meal thing, but it's so it's like a menu from the, that's so cool. I thought originally it was like just a menu you could have any any day. But then I saw a newscast about it. And I think it's like an event, like a limited time event every year.

OK. And then it's it's called that. Let me see. I have a picture. It's very blurry, but I found it on a blog. This is the this is the menu. So it says Titanic set menu from April 13th to April 16th. First course, second course, third course, fourth course dessert. Wow. The dessert was on the Titanic. Apparently everyone was Waldorf pudding with peach compote

and a chartreuse sauce and French ice cream. Chartreuse sauce is questionable. The rest is Waldorf pudding with peach compote and a chartreuse sauce and French ice cream. Chartreuse sauce is questionable. The rest is fun. What the fuck is Waldorf pudding? Oh, you don't know. It's like that weird, it's like walnuts and hold on. It's like a Waldorf salad. I'm assuming it's the same thing. Just no lettuce. I hope not. Can you imagine? Um, okay, yeah, so it is from the Waldorf Hotel.

Same as Waldorf. It looks horrid. Sorry. It looks horrid. What's in a Waldorf pudding? They're not even telling me what it's in. Oh my god, literally, the Wikipedia is just about the Titanic. Oh my god. Oh! They don't know what it is! It was on the Titanic menu, but nobody really knows what it is.

That's so cool. Oh, that is fun. That is fun. Several speculated recipes using apples, walnuts and raisins. I'm like, you don't know what it is. It has walnuts. And I don't know why I came up with that.

There's no evidence that any of those ingredients were used in the Waldorf pudding. The chefs at the Waldorf Hotel had never heard of Waldorf pudding around the time of the sinking of the Titanic. It must have been like there was a Mr. Waldorf on board or something and they, I don't know. Or like maybe it was like the chef's grandmother's recipe.

Wait, look at this. A menu from Celebrity Cruises describes Waldorf pudding served on the RMS Olympic in 1914 as a creamy vanilla pudding flavored with a hint of nutmeg, diced apples, and sultana grapes. I mean that sounds yummy It's not good nutmeg vanilla pudding You know, he's better than all the other raisins and shit if you switch out the grapes for Snickers bars Then you've got like something from the Midwest isn't that like you've got like a mudslide

Something that snickers pie or apple pie snickers. I love a snickers pie Midwest called Snickers pie It's literally like snickers and green apples in vanilla pudding. Yeah, Snickers salad. What if that was on the Titanic? What if it was just a Snickers salad and they didn't have the right word for it? It's like that trend of like what would make a Victorian child like what would make her head explode? Like expire on the spot. Yeah first of all she'd be like what is a salad and second of It's like, what would make her head explode? Like expire on the spot, yeah. First of all, she'd be like, what is a salad? And second of all, why is it made of candy bars? And why did you throw the lettuce on the floor and go, ew? Okay, so that's the history. Isn't that like so fascinating, all the things to spend?

I mean, honestly, I fucking love it. I could hear about that stuff all day. I find it deeply fascinating. So onto the ghosts. The first thing I'm gonna say is that there's a manager at the five fishermen called the, not the, the M. Schultz, actually, go follow me. I was like, what?

There's a manager called Wallace. The king and I? Wallace Fraser. And there's a quote from him that I really like about the ghosts. He says, we say you can stay late, but never alone Furniture will slide across the floor Glasses will fly off the shelves cutlery moves itself sinks turn on and off doors open and close

You hear footsteps you heard tapping and knocking a bunch of times you hear you feel cold drafts when there shouldn't be any People have been grabbed they've've been touched. People see apparitions. People have felt like something's walking through them. One source actually told me about how someone saw a solid person walk through her. Oh, what? Oh, did they feel it? Yeah. Yuck. People hear their name whispered and then if they're alone, they'll hear their name fully called out from the other side of the room. Yuck. One server on a busy night kept getting tapped on the shoulder, like someone was trying to distract him from putting in orders.

How irritating, by the way. Well, apparently he went, what? Like, what do you want? And then turned around. What the fuck, Karen? Oh. And would turn around and there was nothing there. Mm-hmm. Um, in one room next to the salad bar, speaking of salads, it's called the captain's quarters, this private room.

I guess it's like if you want to rent out a private room, maybe when it's empty, people will hear someone arguing in there like a couple. But the words are always too muffled to figure out what they're saying. I hate that. I hate that, too. I love gossip, but if I can't hear the words, might as well not be talking. They're basically taunting you like nice try. That's exactly right. And yeah, if nobody's in the room, you just hear yelling, which is so weird. That's creepy. People have sworn that they've seen someone in that room during closing and

there's nobody in the restaurant except them. You'll see people walk into the room. And even though there's no exit when they go in, they've somehow left the room. So they go in and then vanish. Staff have also watched the swinging doors into the kitchen swing themselves open and closed. And apparently you'll hear them open when you turn around.

The doors are still like swinging. The most common apparitions here are misty bodies with vague facial features, so you can't decipher who they are. Oh, geez. I hate that. Do you think that's Titanic? Maybe actually, I don't know.

Right, like people trying to identify who everyone is? I don't know. That's very symbolic. That kind of foggy, right? It feels like a little too metaphorical. I don't know how That's very symbolic. That kind of foggy, right? It feels like a little too metaphorical. I don't know how ghosts, how poetic ghosts are, but. If you were an author, that would absolutely be it. And we are.

We are, well. Technically speaking. You know what's so funny? I always forget that we wrote fucking books. I know, because it feels like we shouldn't have, because it feels like, shouldn't have because we feels like what do you call it what's the word that I can't even think of? I don't know I can't think of it either. When you feel like you're incompetent. Imposter syndrome.

Imposter syndrome that's the one yeah. I just went to a bookstore and somebody with my friend who I she's like a kind of a friend of a friend we were all in a group. She didn't know that I had written a book, so I like never mentioned it. And she went, you if you you wrote a book and I totally forgot for a second, I went, I don't know what I would write a book about. I literally totally forgot. I are insane. And this is literally this is.

Yeah, it's shocking that a book even got finished, let alone two of them. I know. We're like, we did what? Every time I see one in a store, I go, oh my God, I forgot. Like it's a fun little treat. Yeah, I get like starstruck by myself. I do too. The, okay, the apparitions.

Yeah, I don't know if they're, why they're so vague, but apparently they're hard to decipher, but you can tell there's like a face in it. But you don't have to put it in. And to go with the like, the muffled voices, you know, that's creepy too. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. All of it's hard to decipher. That's very interesting. Weird. The apparitions will sometimes be standing in front of you. Other times they'll move towards you. I guess there was a particular story where this waitress was about to go upstairs and then saw

this like man shaped mist walking towards her and she she went, never fucking mind, and she didn't go upstairs. Sometimes they have been described as having a darker grayer mist underneath them floating up out of the floor. Oh, my God, so like a drop shadow. It's like they make their own floor. That's fun. That's like super cool. I do. It's like stylish, actually.

It's like they're like, I wouldn't dare touch that floor. I got to make my own. One server, there was a woman and her sister and one of them had a kid. They all went to the restaurant, knew it was haunted. The server said mainly the third floor is what's haunted and let them go explore. Oh God. As soon as they wanted to, as soon as they got up there, they wanted to get the fuck out. Apparently this woman said that she felt a weird vibration or humming in the halls. And as she got farther away from the stairs and the lobby,

it got stronger and louder. Oh, boy. She said she felt dread. She felt very unwelcome. She felt sick to her stomach. And she was trying to like keep it together and be brave for her nephew. So she wanted to take a picture, but she was too afraid to take a picture in the direction of the humming. So she just took a picture somewhere else. But as her finger pressed the shutter button,

she heard her nephew in the bathroom scream and then run out of the bathroom. And apparently, as soon as she pressed the button, a stall door like slam shut on him. What? So they weird. It's just weird because of the timing to it's like, anyways. What does it mean? What does it mean? Eventually, her sister, the kid's mom,

went up there to explore herself and she had the exact same feelings of like, I did not fucking like that. That was crazy. Had the same intense uneasiness, but also felt like she needed to know, like, keep her son close and like protect him. And she didn't know what that was about. But the server later told them, oh, I can't go upstairs by myself without feeling sick to my stomach. There's a rumor that two spirits up there are a mom and child trying to find each other.

But a third spirit keeps them apart. Hey, what? That's so fucking dark. Uh, yeah. And that little girl comes back, by the way. She's apparently like, I think she might be one of the kids from the Titanic. That's so sad. Other people have seen this girl on the third floor. They've seen her on the staircase. They've also heard a woman weeping.

So maybe that's how the rumor started that they're looking for each other. One server in particular has walked into the women's bathroom and saw the little girl and she was she had glowing light all around her and she just stood there and stared at her and she looked very very sad. She like really emphasized how sad this girl looked. It's really awful. There have also been EVPs in that same bathroom of the child talking and crying and playing so she's very active apparently in this bathroom. People have seen a woman staring at them in the mirrors. No, okay, no. Yeah, back to the scary stuff.

Honestly, that one probably, that's like where I'm like, I would not, you could not pay me to do that. I would just take the mirrors now. What restaurant needs mirrors? I would literally just go into a catatonic state and probably not speak for a few days. I would scare the absolute shit out of me.

How many mirrors need to be in a room for you to notice that there's mirrors in the room? A few. Cause I, while I think about it, I'm- I'm oblivious. I'm very oblivious, I think, to things like that. There's a lot of restaurants I go into that have zero mirrors and it's never affected me.

When would it affect me when there's too many? Like, apparently... Well, if they're in the bathroom, how the hell are you supposed to... Oh, is it not in the bathroom? Not in the bathroom. Oh, I thought this was all in the bathroom. Some of it was, but now this woman who just shows up in mirrors, it's just... That's just in general mirrors.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, no one cares. Just put more decorations up. Anyway, so after the mirrors have been cleaned, either you'll see the woman, sometimes children's handprints will show up in the mirror. No.

And staff also hear heavy breathing in empty corners when they're closing up. They see shadows darting across the walls and the basement lights will turn themselves off when you're on the other side of their room from the switch. Jesus. In the staff locker area, the lockers will slam themselves shut while you're changing.

So imagine you, like, don't have a shirt on, and now a locker's just slamming next to you. And then the lights turn off across the room, and you have to figure out how to get there in the dark. Like, fuck that. And you're naked, and you have to walk like this to get there in the dark. Like, fuck that. And you're naked and you have to walk like this. And you're like holding like,

you're covering yourself. Like, no, forget it. I would just again, sit down and be like, cool, I'm done. I give up. You win. You win. Here's a creepy one. And maybe you know something about this that I don't.

The clocks on the walls in different rooms have all stopped at the same time. And literally the same time, which happens to be 11 43. Okay, I'm wondering if that was when that explosion happened. But I don't know. I mean, I'm just kind of making that up. Was the Halifax explosion? Oh no, 9 04 AM.

So I'm not sure then. Apparently no one can.04 AM. So I'm not sure then. Apparently no one can figure it out. So I imagine people have Googled all the time. Oh, I thought this was like something you already knew the answer to. No, apparently nobody knows what 11.43 means, but you've got a weird gut feeling about stuff. Oh, well, not today, I guess.

After one table of customers, they're all sitting there, they heard this big crash upstairs, and they had staff go, look. Because they're like, what the fuck was that? Apparently, there was a whole table that was set for customers that was empty. But the table's chairs had knocked themselves over, and the silverware had all flown off the table.

It was all scattered across the room. Ew. Another time, an employee was by himself and had to set up the salad bar. We keep mentioning salad. Um, which by the way, the salad bar, I didn't even remember there being a salad bar because you had your eyes on lobster, friend. I mean, I had other plans. That's right.

It's like if there's a filet mignon in front of me and someone says like, Oh, did you see that clown on a unicycle go by juggling fire? I'd be like, no, I was busy. No wonder I didn't see the lady in the mirror and all that other shit I was busy. Their food has to be good here to distract you from all the scary shit. Well but also like what four dollar sign has a salad bar that feels like a Kroger or something but maybe I guess so but didn't salad bar- maybe it's a Waldorf salad bar. Now that. A fancy salad bar. I guess if it's from 75,

I feel like salad bars were big back then. Oh, maybe back then, yeah. Back then I feel like they would put jello on everything and be like, it's a salad. Yeah. Yeah. Snickers, yeah. Yeah, there.

So anyway, this guy comes in, it's three o'clock. Apparently the restaurant opens at five. So nobody was there, but it's also three o'clock, witching hour, just three in the afternoon. And he's setting up'clock. Apparently, the restaurant opens at five. So nobody was there. But it's also three o'clock, which in our just three in the afternoon. And he's setting up by the salad bar, which happens to be next to the captain's quarters where people hear all the yelling. While he's putting the salad bar together,

he hears a huge crash again. And when he looks over to the side, he sees that a stack of ashtrays that haven't been put out yet. One had thrown itself onto the ground and shattered. I think it shattered. It had thrown itself to the ground. He bent down to pick it up. And when he stood up, he happened to make eye contact with the mirror in front of him. And he saw an old, tall man with long gray hair and a vintage black coat

walking down the hallway. What the fuck? And he was supposed to be alone. And now he sees someone walking away from the room behind him. At least walking away. I know. Can you imagine approaching you? God. Years later, apparently also at 3 p.m., there was another employee who saw a customer, but he was on the phone.

He was like, I'll be with you in a second. But saw this guy, even though the restaurant was supposed to be closed. And then he couldn't find this guy. He vanished. And he was like, did anyone else see that customer? He had long gray hair and he was tall and he had a vintage black coat. Who is it? So this guy likes three o'clock.

He's early, early bird special. Yeah, he's a senior discount. You know, another time this one really freaks me out. Another time a customer came in and spoke with a busboy for several minutes, but when the busboy turned away for a second and came back, the guy was gone. So he asked his coworker, oh, where did that customer go? And the server said, there's never been a customer there. You've been talking to yourself this whole time. Oh, we all thought you were just cuckoo. Yeah, we were taking bets on when you'd stop. Other other times, there's been multiple staff members at once

seeing shadows moving up and down the staircase, humanoid shadows walking up and down the staircase. No. There was a time a server heard a loud tapping on one of the windows, but she was on the second floor. She's like, what the hell would be on the second floor window? There shouldn't be anything that can reach the window. And when she walked up to look out the window,

she saw a gray human-shaped apparition hovering in the air. Another... I hate that. Another time, a hostess, she felt something kind of hit her in the face, but there was nothing in her space. She doesn't know what caused it.

She just felt something hit her in the cheek. And by the time she got back to the hostess stand, there was a huge red handprint as if someone slapped her across the face. Well, that's fucked up. That's like the first personally aggressive thing, it sounds like. Here's the second.

Uh-oh. Another time, a server was slammed into a wall and held down so she couldn't get up. She was just pressed into the wall. Oh, I don't like that it's women. Well, the next guy was a guy. Oh, good. But she got held down, she called for help,

and as she's still being held down, this waiter comes towards her being like, what's going on? And he also gets shoved into a wall and held down, and then they're both just stuck. Ew. And eventually it broke free. One server said that the building allegedly used

to perform exorcisms in the women's bathrooms, which is weird to me, although I will say it was right next to like the oldest church in- Well yeah, that church used to own it, I don't know. So maybe they used it for something before school. Maybe. Before and after school, just preschool exorcisms.

At recess. Sorry, not preschool. What's a better way to say before school? Maybe before school, not preschool. Customers often ask the waiters what's happened here because they sent something dark and they want to know what the history to the building is. Apparently, Blaze and I asked because he said the server told us it was haunted, which presumably, I know Blaze didn't ask,

so that leaves only one other customer at our table who could have asked. So, but I don't think it was, cause I found anything, I think it was just cause I always ask that. I also imagine it just had a weird feeling because from what I've seen online, the decor of it is very dated. So it feels, not dated in a bad way,

dated in like a, we're sticking with the tradition. Like a historic kind of way. It's been around since the seventies. We're a five star. It's like a classic old school steakhouse. So it's kind of a steakhouse vibe where they're like, we stick to the traditional. Yeah.

So it's just kind of darker in there. And so it just feels a little creepy. They have a vegan menu. I just looked that up. That's cool. They do. They have a kid's menu, which is half a lobster. I know, right? It's like $65. Anyway, the last have a kid's menu, which is half a lobster. I know, right. It's like sixty five dollars.

Anyway, the last thing I'm going to say is there's a quote from a server named Jill who has said at the end of the night, when people are starting to go home and it gets more quiet, you kind of stop trying to hear things because you're afraid of what you're going to see. That's oh, goose cam. That's the vibe. That's like when you're in a dark house and you sense something, you don't fucking look because you know you might see something. You know what I mean? Like you hear a tapping on a second floor window.

Am I going to go look? No, no, I am not. No, siree. Anyway, that is five fishermen. And I can't believe that we found out together that was really exciting. I was like, I was like, I mean, it's a small ish town, but there are a lot of really nice restaurants. So, and we were like dealing, we were contending with Canadian Thanksgiving. And so a lot of places had like odd hours

or were like booked because people had booked for Thanksgiving. But yeah, that was a really delicious meal. No ghosts, some shops. I did not, I know. I mean, honestly, like you said, there could have been a lady staring at me from the mirror next to me and I would not have properly noticed. I was really. I know. I mean, honestly, like you said, there could have been a lady staring at me

from the mirror next to me, and I would not have properly noticed. I was really busy taking pictures of my wine and my lobster. Out of implicit place. If I was spending four dollar signs worth on on food, I better not get distracted from the food. That's right. Yeah, it's like honestly, maybe they tell them like if they tip, if they don't tip well, you can give them a little boogie boogie scare, you know?

But otherwise, let them enjoy their five course, five star meal, okay? In peace. I'm sure there's other places, but the only other mortuary turned restaurant I can think of is there's a place in Denver called, well, it was originally called Olingers like funeral services called Casa Bonita and

No, it was called Olinger something funeral homes. I guess feel like you've told me about this maybe probably It's like one of my favorite things or was it in the book that we wrote probably Did we write a book? well, then it became a restaurant and I I don't I feel like it was by accident. But the O in Olinger, they decided to keep the sign up and the O burnt out. So now it just says linger. How fun. And so now it's love that now it's a restaurant called Linger. Hey, that's cool.

And it's like, I mean, that's so meant to be. I feel like if you had Olinger Funeral Services, you should have just made it linger Funeral Services. I mean, it's like the universe did it for them, you know? I know. I love that. I like to think that Olinger was up in the sky and was like, we're gonna keep the homage

and we're gonna make it really good. And then just turned his own light out. Just watch. Anyway, that's Five Fishermen. That was so cool. I mean, I never would have expected you to do a restaurant, seafood restaurant, let alone one I've apparently been to. I saw Halifax and I went, OK, all right.

Seven years ago. I better get going. Let's go back. I do think it'd be interesting to go and do the Titanic menu just to be like, oh, what they eat in 1912. I think that's super cool. And I would love, the ghost tour was one of the best I've done because there's so much history.

Like the explosion, for example, did you know apparently it would have killed, here I go with my spiel, it blazes in my spiel. It would have killed so many more people, but there's this hill in Halifax and it blocked a tremendous amount of the explosion. And if that hill had not been there, I think like the entire town would have been demolished.

Finally a use for a hill, because every time I see a hill I go, what is your whole deal? Why are you here? You're in my way. For what? For saving your damn life, that's what it is. Well, that is fascinating. Yeah, they even talked about like the aftermath

and how so many people had lost their vision and hearing and how the town had to adapt to so many people now having these like disabilities and like how it just became that the whole town shifted. You know there was something that I saw about like Martha's Vineyard being the reason that ASL started, because there was like a weird amount of people on the island who needed sign language. And so they developed MVSL, which was Martha's Vineyard sign language. And then it was the inspiration into general American sign

language. But it was like there was like 400 people who like for some reason, it must have been genetic or something, but they all needed like accessibility to speak. Communication. Whoa. Yeah, I had no idea. Anyway, your turn ruined my day. I'm very proud of myself because in recent years, I have been able to cut out all that fast fashion.

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This is the story of Rachel Winkler and it's kind of one of those stories that contains a crime within a crime. So we'll get to that, but let's just jump right in. We're going to start all the way at the beginning. September 26, 1999. These two guys, Michael Hodna and Woody Depew, were camping in the Chattahoochee National Forest, which is a remote expansive forest that covers about 26 counties in Georgia.

So they're out in the wilderness camping and in the middle of the night, they wake up to someone running through the campsite, screaming for help. Oh shit. So of course they jump out of bed, well, out of tent, I don't know, out of, I don't go camping, out of sleeping bag.

Off the ground, yeah. I like how I'm like, I would go under the tent and not come out, but I guess. I would get in my car and just keep driving, yeah. I would not be there, because I would not be camping. What's a hill? Oh, finally, an actual good reason for a hill to exist. So what about sledding? If I'm driven up the hill.

Right right I mean I'm not talking about the up part right but just the down part. The down part I understand the down part of a hill. The up part we've never been friends. Okay fair point I guess the down part is always pretty fine. Okay so Michael and Woody they jump up they they rush out of the tent they find this guy he's in complete distress he tells them he's That's pretty fine. Okay. So Michael and Woody, they jump up, they rush out of the tent, they find this guy. He's in complete distress. He tells them he's just been in a terrible car accident and his wife is trapped in the vehicle.

Oh my God. He's freaking out. So Woody and Michael, they run to the scene, they find the vehicle. It is completely engulfed in 20 foot tall flames. Oh no. And this guy's like, my wife's in there. So they make their way down this slope

and they're trying to access the car, which has kind of fallen off this ledge. And Todd is meanwhile, he's the guy that was asking for help. He waits above, but because of the fire, they just can't get access. And they realized pretty quickly, there's no way they're gonna be able to save the woman inside. Her name was Catherine or Kathy Carlisle, and she was only 32 years old. Oh my God. So the men had to abandon the scene because the fire kept spreading and there was just

nothing they could do. It ended up consuming three acres before county and federal firefighters were able to get it under control. And at this point, Kathy's husband, Todd Winkler, is inconsolable. He tells first responders that he and Kathy were just out camping together and he went to use the bathroom and while he was outside, he was bitten by an insect. And because he has allergic reactions to bug bites,

he said it was a medical emergency. So he woke Kathy up, said, you have to drive me to the hospital. And he said he was in the bed of the truck. And as things were getting worse and worse, Kathy panicked and sped up in the dark, hit a curve too fast, spun off the road and careened 200 feet down the side of the mountain. Oh my god. Todd was not buckled in, claiming he was in the bed of the truck or in the back at least. And he was ejected from the vehicle when it rolled and it finally stopped when it hit a tree

and burst into flames. Oh my God. Now, tragically, when Cathy's remains were finally recovered, they were burned beyond recognition and it was determined that she had been alive when the car had crashed and because they had found evidence of smoke inhalation and internal burns.

It's just horrible. Her sister Christina was devastated as was her best friend, Julie Lynn Cox. Julie tried to call Todd over and over trying to get a hold of him and just say like, Hey, what happened? Like, we want to hear from you. I mean, this is their sister and best friend's husband. And he never answered the phone. And then one day when she called, his line had just been disconnected. Okay, and that they just had to try and move on

without Kathy in their lives. And the accident was ruled an accident. Okay. Several years later, I mean, you can probably hear in my tone that I don't believe it was an accident, but it was ruled technically as an accident. Okay. So several years later, Todd meets Rachel. Like his late wife, Rachel was beautiful and charismatic.

She graduated top of her accounting class at Sonoma State University. She was a painter and very artistic. She had an adventurous spirit and liked to spend time outdoors, hiking, river rafting, bungee jumping, and the two of them were in that kind of like honeymoon phase almost immediately. Just weeks after they started dating, they got engaged. And Rachel's father, Don, was a little concerned because she was going real fast. And the way he talks about his daughter, it's very sweet.

Like he's just, he just, when he described her, I got teary-eyed because I was like, what a kind way to describe a person just as like intelligent and loving and creative. And she just sounded like a really cool gal, but they got engaged. And Dawn is a little anxious about this because he doesn't really know this guy.

He feels like, how can she really know this guy? But he met him and was like, well, they're really, really in love. So he just kind of, and what is he gonna do? So he just let it happen. However, his anxiety started to worsen when one of Todd's ex-girlfriends reached out and said, "'Whatever you do, don't let your daughter marry that man.'"

Oh, shit, okay. Which is wild because so far you really had me hooked that like, I mean, to be inconsolable. Yeah, it's that word, right? Although I- It's like alarming to hear. I did question so he had an allergic reaction to bug bites and then he never had the reaction. Hey, good point. I do believe it's in my notes later but I'm gonna say it now just in case it's not. When the investigator arrived on scene and said

oh where's your bug bite he said said, I forget. Oh my God. Okay, wow. Does that help? You know, immediately I don't feel a complete dread for him. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He just said, I got bitten by a bug and I had a severe allergic reaction,

had to go to the hospital. So severe. But then like it just stopped. And like I didn't go to the hospital. That's weird. Okay. Okay, so anyway, uh, Don is getting this call about his daughter saying, and the ex is saying, Hey, whatever

you do, do not let your daughter marry this man. And he's like, uh, okay, I don't know what to do with this information. Basically he described it as this person begging him not to let his daughter get involved with this guy. But if Rachel had any doubts about Todd, she did not show them. She told Don she knew what she was doing. And like he said, she was a smart, intelligent, emotionally mature person. He trusted her to make good choices for herself

and said, you know what, if you love this guy, then go for it. She assured her dad that Todd was a business-minded family man who would provide for her and love her. And it was true that he was pretty successful. He was a former fighter pilot for the U.S. Air Force, and he had since retired to civilian life and landed a well-paying job as an executive

for a pharmaceutical company. Okay. So Don was like, okay, fine. I'm glad he makes money, but that's not really, like, my big concern. Right. And, like, he, fine, I'm glad he makes money, but that's not really like my big concern. Right. And like, he always found Todd pretty respectful. Like, you know, that kind of just,

he's a gentleman to him and treating him like a father figure, you know? But Don was afraid that like, maybe they didn't know the real guy. I think he probably had a gut feeling. It took a while for Don to really believe in the relationship. He was still pretty wary.

Rachel and Todd ended up getting married. They settled into their new life in Cameron Park, California, which is about 40 minutes east of Sacramento. I didn't know about this neighborhood, but apparently Cameron Park is a community of pilots and aeroplane enthusiasts. Okay, sure. Yeah, one neighborhood, Cameron Air Park Estates,

is what's known as a residential air park, which are neighborhoods. I know, neighborhoods built around airports. So you basically take off from your home. That's so sick. Isn't that wild? I think I've heard about this one other time on one of my spirals about the buggars because they're all in the planes.

Are they? I didn't know that. Oh, all of them know how to fly a plane. Oh, wait. Yes. You've told me that when we cut. Yeah, you've told me this. I think one of them said in some episode, he was like, my dream is to live in an air park. And then I, of course, had to go looking. Yeah, of course, because it's like, what are you talking like an air stream? No, what a fun concept. It would be so, because it's like, what are you talking, like an air stream? No.

What a fun concept. It would be so useful on tour if we lived in an air park. Well, and if Eva was a pilot, yeah. That would be crazy. We would kind of need somebody to actually get us to and fro. Sometimes I, in the middle of the night, I think I'm gonna go to pilot school.

And then I go, you should go to bed first. Oh, maybe we'll start by actually falling asleep and getting a good night's rest. Yeah. Part of me is like, I go to sleep first. Not that I actually think I'm going to like go to pilot school in the middle of the night, but I'm like, maybe I sleep on it because I could probably just be really tired and think this is a genius idea. And tomorrow I have a feeling I won't want to do it. Have you flown a plane like never in my life once? No.

But I keep thinking I, I need a hobby. Wait, what? Yeah. When, when you were five and you sat in like the captain's lap? Like Michael Scott. Or was it Dwight? Yeah.

No, I flew a plane. Like my stepdad got me flying lessons in high school. I didn't want them. And I said, I don't want them. And then I got them anyway. So I had to do it. It was fine. We flew by yourself like alone up there No, no, no, there was like an instructor, but I was like in the how many lessons did you take only one? And they let you fly a plane Yeah, feels like you need at least I think what they do is like they scoot over

It's like a driver's oh plane where, I think they have emergency stuff on there. Like there really wasn't much I could do except like, well like left, right. Was it cool or was it horrifying? No, it was really cool. I liked it better than skydiving, which I also was forced to do against my will. Couldn't be me.

Yeah. No. I would prefer to stay in the plane if I'm choosing. What is wrong with you? Why do you want to go skydiving? And also Alison's gone bun the plane if I'm choosing. What is wrong with you? Why do you want to go skydiving? And also Alison's gone bungee jumping. I don't. Did you not hear against my will?

Do you have any fucking idea how afraid of heights I am and how nauseated I get just being on a plane? Who suggested that? My mom. I was forced to do this by my mother and stepfather. No wonder they married each other. Yeah, they're sick. They want you in the sky, girl.

They love you up there. There's a picture of me with a fucking flight certificate. I got home and I put that in the trash. I was like, I don't want any of this. Get it away. That's not true. I hug it up very proudly for a long time. I guess I can't.

I've been in a hot air balloon. That's cool. I've not done that. I don't want to do that either. I don't want to ever again. Yeah, every review I've read, Alexander and I did an episode on one star reviews of hot air balloon rides

That was honestly probably the funniest and most terrifying episode we've ever done. I was like this shit is crazy I'll tell you it the last thing it is is romantic So if you're thinking you talk about it in the yappy hour I have so many questions about it and we've sort of touched on it before but I just I want to hear your experience And I need to ask about flight school. We'll do that. Yeah, oh yeah, okay, great. We'll talk about our time in the skies.

Okay, sorry, back to this. So essentially this is for aeroplane enthusiasts and they build their homes around a central air park and you're able to take off from home in your plane. And pretty cool idea. Most homes in the neighborhood have their own hangars, of course, to park their personal aircraft. The roads are extra wide,

so planes and cars can safely pass each other. I mean, it's the weirdest concept. Like they should make a sitcom based in one of these places, you know. Just feels so- That'd be hysterical. Right? Like it feels, it's so strange. It'd be really funny if the air park was like near the lake and there was like a boat community that hated the plane

Oh, I was gonna say what if someone moved in who like oh know anything about planes and just accidentally bought a property and anyway hijinks ensue TMTM so most homes have their own hangars for their personal aircraft and the roads are extra wide And pilots can taxi the planes from the airport to their front doors. That's literally so fucking cool. It's so cool even the street signs and mailboxes are uniquely short so they don't get hit by plane wings. Mailboxes? How oh my god how small are they? No no as they're driving by like they're like on the ground. Wait actually Sersha put a photo.

I was gonna say, how tiny is this? Like for little gnomes? Look at this, it's amazing, hold on. They're like short, I guess I should say. Like the sign's not small, it's just they're short, close to the ground. Oh, that's so cute. I know, it's like a little squat.

It's like someone hammered the street sign too far. So that the wings can like safely pass over you know that stuff that would be hysterical if you're like walking your dog and it looks like it's telling them to not go over 25 yeah it's like slow down are you need translation i'm so sorry tell me this horrible story i just keep avoiding it it's like when they're when we're talking about something uh just like a fun fact it's so easy to just tangent on that to try and avoid the disaster that is coming. Even Cameron Park residents who aren't immediately within the airpark neighborhood are often very into airplanes, all things flying, piloting, that sort of thing. So Rachel and Todd, they bought an $860,000 house. They moved into this beautiful area,

but Todd only stayed there on weekends and actually rented an apartment closer to Sacramento where he stayed during the work week so he didn't have to commute. Meanwhile, Rachel was a stay at home mom. They had three children, Eva, Ariel, and Alex. And yeah, everybody was just really into them. They were really popular in the neighborhood.

Everyone thought they were just a happy and loving couple, good parents, cute kids. But Rachel's closest friend, Brandy, had some other ideas about this whole situation. Uh-oh. Rachel was struggling in her marriage to Todd, and Brandy knew this. Brandy would ask Rachel how things were going with Todd,

and Rachel would always respond with a sentence like, it's okay, I'll be fine. Oh, girl. And to the best friend, it was like, that's not good enough for you, okay? Like, that's not reassuring. I, you know, I worry about you. But when Rachel had first met Todd,

she was just glowing and so happy that all of her friends and family just kind of said, okay, well, if this is, she was just glowing and so happy that all of her friends and family just kind of said, okay, well, if this is what makes her happy. But now they're all looking at the situation going, oh, they can see how defeated and deflated she looks. The light in her eyes had dimmed. She was just like really, really down. And she seemed stressed about finances.

Brandi had kind of picked up on the fact that they were in some significant debt. And that sort of added on to her theory when Rachel took a job as the office manager at the Cameron Air Park. So the nearby, like their own air park, she took a job there. And her new schedule and lifestyle was nearly impossible. She had to be office manager, house manager, and full-time primary parent five days a week while Todd wasn't even home. And on top of that, the house being so large

and needing so much care, it also needed renovations, improvements, and Todd would often start a project and then leave for weeks for work and then not finish it. So Rachel felt like this was an unsafe home for the kids, especially the littler ones. She talked about it feeling like a construction zone and she told Brandy her home was unsafe and she just was always uncomfortable in there. And she just was really kind of defeated. She felt like Todd's large income like wasn't fitting the lifestyle they had

and she thought things could be better and easier considering how much money he made and the fact that now she had a job and she just couldn't understand why things weren't really going as well as she had kind of imagined they would. It wasn't just Todd's absence and their home that troubled Rachel though,

because even when Todd was around, he had become kind of a weirdo. Okay. So Rachel would confide in her friend Brandy over email about her marriage, and this is one of the quotes. Todd values experiences over relationships. I fell in love with a creep, which serves me right. Ooh. And so, Red Florence- What experiences? You know, he's just the kind of guy who base, I think what she was saying is basically like, he values,

those were two, sorry, those were also two separate sentences. So the experiences and the creep part were two things. I think what she was just saying is like, he isn't into form, like working on the relationships within the family. He just wants like stuff and things and to do, to go do things and to, he's just not maybe focused on it.

He's prioritizing himself. Himself, yes, exactly. So completely overwhelmed and unsatisfied, Rachel turned to a friend for support He's prioritizing himself. Himself, yes, exactly. So completely overwhelmed and unsatisfied, Rachel turned to a friend for support and this friend worked with her at the airport. This was James White, a former US Marine who did odd jobs at the Cameron Air Park like painting and roof work. And of course, as these things sometimes go, the two fell in love with one another.

So Brandi could see now suddenly that her best friend Rachel was happier than she'd been in a long time. Rachel felt fulfilled. She felt like someone was listening to her and cared about her and cared about her kids. At one point she was even pregnant with Todd's baby, but James was like, I don't care.

Like, I still want to be with you and I want to raise your kids with you. They were just very, very in love. And Rachel knew she wanted to be with James more than she wanted to be with Todd, but she was conflicted because she had been raised religious and she was just nervous that like getting divorced, you know, was such a taboo

and she didn't really want to go there. But she spent a few months kind of agonizing over it and she finally decided she was gonna leave him good Okay, good on the morning of Monday February 27th Todd and Rachel's neighbor called 9-1-1 Okay, yeah Okay, he told the dispatcher. I'm calling to report a fatality The situation's been reported to me by my next door neighbor. The dispatcher asked what happened

and he said he believed there was a domestic dispute and he told the dispatcher that the incident seemed to have taken place at four in the morning. Now, I wanna tell you, the time of the call was 10 a.m. So immediately they were like, it's been six hours since this incident. And the guy's like, that's what he told me. So an officer of course responds to the call,

finds Todd sitting on the front curb and immediately draws a gun because from what he can tell, there's been a homicide, at least that's what, or some sort of incident, right? Because of the 911 call nine one one call. So he sees this man out front with kind of his head in his hands and he, he, he walks up weapon drawn, says like, put up your hands. The guy does. He says, who's in your house? He says, no one. He says, where are your kids?

And he says at the neighbor's house. And he says, okay, And he says, at the neighbor's house. And he says, okay, where's your wife? And he's like, oh, she's inside. And he said, well, you said no one was inside. And he said, oh, well, she's dead. What? And just the way that conversation happened, it like gives me the heebie-jeebies somehow,

like, oh, no one's in the house. Everyone went next door. Oh, my wife, yeah, she is, but she's not alive. It's like, what a weird... It just to me was a striking way to say that. I just found it strange. Either he's like, psychotically or like some thing. Like having a break or like a detach.

Yeah, or he... Either he's evil, he's snapped, or he like doesn't understand, or he's in full panic. Maybe he's just blurting things out and not realizing what's going on. I mean, yeah, who knows? And it just struck me as odd, and I don't think it means necessarily anything,

but I just was like, what a strange way to say that. It seemed like a red flag to me, I guess. Especially the first time that one of his wives died, he was inconsolable. And now he's just like, oh, she's dead. I mean, I think he was still like crying and like really upset. But I think it was just the verbiage of like, no one's in the house, you know, and, and I thought you said no one's in the house. Oh, well, like she's it's sort of like implying like, well, she's not a person. She's dead. You know, it's like, right, like the logic of like,'s, it's sort of like implying like, well, she's not a person. She's dead.

You know, it's like, like the logic of like, oh, well, the house is empty. Well, except of people, except my dead wife. Yeah. It's just, it was, to me, I just found it really a strange exchange, but he was acting very upset. And he was seemingly distraught. He told the officer Rachel was dead. He said she had attacked him and then he started to cry. Todd waved his right to an attorney and spoke to detectives at the police station for more than an hour without

any representation. He told them he usually left for Sacramento at four in the morning every Monday and that morning he wanted to talk to Rachel before he left and this is his, according to Todd's interview. They were sleeping in separate bedrooms and he knew about the affair. And so they were sleeping in separate bedrooms, so he went to her room before leaving for work before 4 a.m. and got into bed beside her. He knew about the affair. He wanted to try and resolve their issues and this is what he told her. But apparently Rachel wasn't interested and told him she was leaving. He told her that he would fight her for custody of the kids and she responded that James, her boyfriend,

the person she was having an affair with, would quote, do him in if he tried to take the children. Oh! Todd then said he slapped Rachel and then realizing what he had done, he tried to take the children. Oh. Todd then said he slapped Rachel and then realizing what he had done, he tried to rub her back and apologize over and over, but she suddenly turned on him wielding a pair of scissors. Oh! He said they were open,

and Rachel charged Todd with them as if she would cut him, not stab him, specifically saying, she turns around and she's coming at me with a V of scissors. Oh. So Todd says he fought for the scissors, sustaining the wounds to his hands

that the detective had seen when he had first arrested him or taken him into custody, I should say. They wrestled each other off the bed to the floor. The fight became life or death. This is what Todd is saying. Rachel was trying to kill him, but Todd says he got on top of Rachel, pried the scissors from her,

and stabbed her multiple times. Oh my God, okay. At this point, Todd tells detectives Rachel was wounded, but quote, probably not seriously. Oh, you stabbed her? Multiple times with a pair of scissors. Okay. He ran out of the house in a panic.

Then he remembered, oh wait, the kids are inside. And he decides he wants to take the kids with him. I don't know, or take care of them. It's just strange the way he tells the story. Get this, the youngest baby, they say, well, where was the baby? And he says, oh, in our room with us, in Rachel's room. So during the altercation, the baby was in the room.

I mean, the baby was really small, so the baby probably was not like seeing anything. Still something that will be discussed in therapy one day. And what a traumatic thing that like, as the mom too, that this is happening in front of your baby. I mean, it's just all horrible so he goes back into the room to check on the baby where this brutal fight had just taken place and apparently Todd claims he's so terrified that Rachel would hurt their children that he grabbed

his leather motorcycle jacket from the car for protection and this guy was in the fucking air force like this is what pisses me off this woman is a small slight woman who's like just so down and unhappy and like and then this guy's this military train 200 some pound like and then all of a sudden he's magically scared. Yeah, right try again Fuck off that really like oh you had a huge wrestling match like she's 95 pounds. Give it a rest You know like that like I get her coming at you as sisters was scary, but you pry them away now what don't? stab her multiple so

He grabs his leather motorcycle jacket for protection and storms back into the bedroom to rescue their son. This is just insanity. In his panic, he says he tripped and Rachel kicked him in the face. She attacked him again with scissors. Todd told detectives that now it was a kill or be killed situation.

Okay. He said, once I started to get the upper hand, this is very disturbing, I just pushed the scissors in as far as I could. And like, he really thinks this is gonna like work. Wow. I couldn't even say that sentence. To say that sentence to even, to do that,

to say that, to even think that. I couldn't do it and then think about it and then be able to say that a. To say that sentence, to even to do that, to say that. I couldn't do it and then think about it and then be able to say it out loud. I'd be so articulate that you did it. Right. Like, especially if I as far as I'm the story I'm going with, everything was hunky dory and this is the love of my life. And now I'm just a shock. The idea of saying that about Allison and like, because you would also this should be like a doubly traumatic day for you

if this was someone you really loved and didn't want to do this to. That's what's so crazy is like, that's exactly it. It's like, if we're gonna believe the story, then you're telling me that this like, seemingly innocuous conversation where you were gonna tell her how much you loved her and wanted to work things out, just escalated.

And in the end you were shoving scissors into her as deeply as you could. Like what? Especially if this, like, I mean, you just said this, but that's a great point that if we're starting out on I'm desperate to have you back. Right, right. Like I want to fix this. Ooh, it's just really, really red flags all over town and like to burst back in.

It's just, what are you, so if you're scared for your life, but you're gonna burst back into the room, fight with Scissors some more. I mean, the whole thing is just nonsensical. And so he says the scissors thing, it's fucking horrendous. This, I mean, this next bullet maybe is even worse okay so just please bear with me here folks um god damn it he stabbed Rachel in the throat and then he lay on her body

for a long time until he was sure she was dead and he didn't get up until the baby in the crib beside him woke up and started to cry for food. For her mom, for their mom. For yeah, for milk. Oh my God. Yeah, it's horrific. So this story he's telling is terrible, terrible, and is allegedly what he claims as self-defense.

But detectives are listening to this and going like, okay, not all of this is really sounding correct, okay? By the time Todd called his neighbor and the first responders arrived, Rachel's body was in rigor mortis. Remember, it had been six hours since the incident had taken place. So now they're asking him,

why did it take you six hours to call for help after you like just clearly laid out how you killed your own wife? And he says, well, oh, the baby was hungry. So I took the baby to the laundry room, fed the baby a bottle and got him back to sleep. Then he said, oh no, I gotta clean this blood up before the kids come in and see it.

And he was afraid the older children would come in and see this horrible scene. So he's trying to clean it all up and he closes the door. When the older children wake up, he says, he washes his hands, he makes them breakfast, puts on a movie for them. And by the way, he gives the detail that it's Planet of the Apes.

Thank you for that. Okay, weird detail where it's not needed and weird no detail where it's definitely needed. Isn't that funny how that works? And I feel like they do say people who lie add extra details to make it sound valid. And this probably wasn't the movie they put on, but I think he's just saying it to be like,

"'No, it's true, check the DVD player.'" And it's like, nobody was in the movie they put on but I think he's just saying it to be like no it's true, check the DVD player and it's like nobody's questioning what movie you put on. Like that's not what this is about, whatever. So he says he is attempting to clean the place up but then the kids are watching the movie and he looks around and he goes, oh, I had lit, I, you know, I, after I put on Planet of the Apes,

I lit a fire for them in the fireplace. And then I looked around and saw how many cleaning supplies I had laying around and I thought, this looks bad. So I burned all the cleaning supplies in the fireplace. What? It looks worse that you did that. It looks, and not even because it was suspicious, but because you're acting fucking weird. Like, and like, first of all,

isn't that just going to kill everyone? Like, like don't put. Yeah, lighting Lysol on fire. What are you talking about? Lysol and bleach in the fireplace, first of all, the plastic containers. I mean, what are you doing? Also, like, that wouldn't be weird.

It would be weird if like your bloody fingerprints were on it, but like you, you're in your house. There should be cleaning products there. It's weird to be like, it was so weird how many cleaning products I had. I will say as someone who overthinks, I could see myself trying to like scared of anything looking like evidence and panicking. In shock where you're like, if the story that is to be believed in shock of like, oh my God, I didn't do it on purpose and it looks like I did.

If he were truly innocent, although I'm sensing that's not the direction we're heading, if he were truly innocent, I could see like just panicking and thinking everything looks like evidence because I don't know what they're gonna find. And that's like the classic like trope in where the protagonist is like technically

in trouble for something, but it really wasn't their fault and they look guilty, you know, it's like, but that's in stories. You know? That's like, I would like get scared that like, there's mud on my car and people are gonna think that's where I, now they think I buried someone because there's mud on my car

and then I'd go get my car washed and now I'm like getting like- But you have to go past so many other things. Like, you'd have to get past like, oh, let me put a movie on for, like you'd have to get past- Yeah, you're right. Oh, what do I do with my wife's body before like, oh, it's so suspicious I have all these cleaning products.

Like your wife is laying in her bedroom. I mean, on the floor in rigor mortis. It's just something about this is so bizarro. Yeah. And you're right. Like it's more suspicious. So of course the reason that was even brought up is because they found all these ashes, like fresh ashes in the fireplace. And so he thought it would look suspicious,

so he burned them. And then finally, he called his neighbor, who just so happened to be a lawyer, to report Rachel's death and asked another neighbor to watch the kids while he waited for the police to arrive. I would be fascinated to be a criminal lawyer for a day because there's gotta be times when people call you and you just know you're about to defend someone

who's absolutely guilty. You're like, I actually don't want to do that. I think you probably, I mean, you can say no. Like, you don't have to be, you don't have to represent someone. I know, but there's someone who takes the case and they have to think, how am I going to get myself out of this?

Yeah, I do. I mean, you should watch Better Call Saul. It's such a good show. I feel like it's kind of similar vibes. So after Todd's interview, he was put under arrest. And you should see, they're like, all right, put your hands behind your back. He goes, am I being arrested?

And they're like, yeah. And he's like, okay. And I'm like, are you idiot? Of course you're being arrested. Yeah. You just told them you stabbed your wife with a pair of scissors repeatedly. Yeah, you have to assume like, of course, in my brain where I like, have hypothetical situations all the time of like horrible things that I hope never happened. I'm like, if I if someone

accidentally died, and I was the only other person in the room or something, I would have to assume I'm going to call the police. I'm the only one here. So obviously I'm going to get arrested next. Like just because I was here. Like I would, I would go through it in my head. I think first of like, what can I expect out of this situation? I can't control. What can I control? Okay. I will be getting arrested. I have to be okay with that. I don't think my brain would even go there. I think my brain would be like, shit, someone's dead. 9-1-1, someone else has to do. I would call 9-1-1 first, but as I'm waiting for the be like, shit, someone's dead. 911, someone else has to deal with this.

I would call 911 first, but as I'm waiting for the police to get there, I'd be like, well, now I just kind of put myself in a pickle here. Like, they're gonna come and I'm gonna probably get arrested. There's no reason for them to not suspect me. I'm right here. They're not gonna arrest you on the spot

unless you're like covered in blood. I think I would just prepare for the worst. I think I would just be in a different plane of exit. Like I think I would just be so in shock. I don't think I would even, my brain would even go there. I don't know though. How do we know? We don't even know.

I absolutely panic if I have enough time, but usually when I don't have a lot of time to panic, I kind of just go into task mode. I'm like, what's to do next? I think that's where I would go. Just like, okay, 911. I know to do next? I think that's where I would go, just like, okay, 911, I know to do that, I know to wait. But then when you're on 911, I mean, if the person,

they're having you check the pulse, they're having you give CPR, like you wouldn't just be probably twiddling your thumbs unless like, you know, this were very specific situation. I'm trying to justify it in my head and like be on his side for a second, to be like, I guess I would panic and also act that way. I guess I would panic and also act, but there are some things I'm like, huh.

The second I shove a pair of scissors into someone I love, the mother of my children, the parent of my children, no, I'm calling the ambulance and saying, save my wife that I just got into a fight with and accidentally stabbed, like she was trying to stab me. I mean, any situation where you're in like a hand to hand combat, I just feel like you and I wouldn't even be in that situation because we're not

abusive, violent people. It's like, I think in his head, it's making sense, but like, we just wouldn't be able to understand. I don't know. Yeah. Anyway, what happens next? To just not be concerned about her, and more be concerned about how suspicious you look, and not be concerned really about the kids,

but be concerned that the cleaning products look suspicious, why don't I burn them? The whole thing, I just am like, you know. Yeah, and moments like that, well, obviously with the stabbing part, I'm with you. I'm trying to think of like, would I pan? I can do something like that. Probably. I could see those smaller things, but when you add them all up,

they don't make a lot of sense. No, it doesn't really make a lot of sense. And so it was hilarious when he's like, am I under arrest? And they're like, yeah. How do you not see that? Yeah, I just told you to put your hands behind your back. So neighbor said Todd was a relatively friendly guy. They thought of him as a good father. He would sometimes jog with his older kids when they were all home.

Likewise, Rachel was well liked. Some people in the neighborhood actually knew she was having an affair. But they didn't suspect anything to be as bad in the marriage as what had just shockingly happened. Like nobody knew there had been any violence, nothing like that. But those who were closer to Rachel said, actually, we knew all about it. And Rachel has been afraid of her husband, Todd, for a long time. The day before she died, Rachel told James, her boyfriend, that she didn't feel safe in the house when Todd was home and she did not wanna stay there with the kids over weekends anymore.

James told her that she was welcome to bring the kids to stay at his house for the weekend. And James told detectives that the day before her death, he was helping Rachel fill out divorce paperwork. And incidentally, she planned to tell Todd that she wanted to divorce the next morning when she was killed. That same day, Brandy talked to Rachel on the phone and Rachel said she had realized something about her husband, Todd. She told Brandy Todd is a pathological

liar and Rachel ended the conversation very suddenly and said, I have to call you back later. And never did. Okay. That was the last time they spoke. James agreed that Todd had a long history of bizarre lies. In the past, he had faked cancer at work. He had tried to convince Rachel to fake a car crash to collect insurance money.

And if this is true, it's especially alarming because Todd had previously collected nearly $1.2 million when Cathy had died in that car accident. Remember that car accident? Sure do. He got $1.2 million in life insurance out of it. Hmm. You don't say. Rachel's father, Don, remembered that Rachel said

she had once found a box of ashes in her home and discovered they belonged to Kathy. According to Don, Rachel said, I hope I never become ashes, as sort of like a joke. And Todd said, well, then don't make me mad. Oh my God. And James told a similar story that Rachel had discovered the ashes, asked what they were. Todd said they belonged to his former wife. Rachel asked if she'd end up as ashes too.

And he told her, as long as you don't leave me. That's insane. Investigators found Cathy's remains exactly where James said Rachel found them stored in a plastic bag in a box in Todd's bedroom nightstand. So that all seemed to line up Investigators found Cathy's remains exactly where James said Rachel found them, stored in a plastic bag in a box in Todd's bedroom nightstand, so that all seemed to line up and corroborate the story. James also claimed that Rachel wanted the job managing the airpark office because Todd

left her with no money during the week as a control tactic, like financial abuse, he wouldn't leave her with any funds, and she had three children to take care of, so that's why she picked up this job, which I'm sure pissed him off. He said Todd was extremely manipulative, and Rachel was trying to survive that, like, at the bare minimum in her marriage to him. Nobody who knew Rachel described any history of violence that would have escalated to attempted murder, especially on her part, and even Todd told detectives that Rachel had never once been violent with him before. So I'm like, now you're saying you're worried she's gonna hurt the kids? You know, like, nice try. Nice try.

He described the fight, quote, It was a long, long, long protracted struggle. She's a very strong girl. She's an extremely strong girl. She's in much better shape than me. Fuck off. That pisses me off. She's stronger than an Air Force military guy? Yeah, bullshit.

Well, how? She was, she weighed just over 100 pounds, okay? She weighed- Good lifter. She was petite. She weighed over, just over 100 pounds. Todd was twice her size, over 200 pounds, trained in military combat. Like, detectives literally could not understand

how this could have been such a, quote, long, long, long protracted struggle. It's kind of giving when, like, a cop is trigger happy and they're like, well, I got scared he was gonna come at me. It was just so out of control. And it's like, really, what's this? And then you look at the situation.

You had the power in the situation, right? Like you had the weapon and you had the power. It's like, maybe that's true. Not all the time. How is this happening so many times? This guy where, I mean- Isn't that weird? I'm assuming at this point that he probably thought the same thing or said the same thing

about his last wife to somebody. I mean, that was a car crash. So I think he didn't have to say anything about a struggle. He just- Do we ever find out more about the car crash? Like, was he? I kind of don't believe any of that story anymore. I mean, I know it was a car crash, but I feel like he. Well, well, yeah, we'll we'll get back.

We do get back to that. OK. So detectives also considered it unusual that his only defensive wounds were the few that he had on his hands and they were relatively superficial. Whereas Rachel, oh, she was stabbed more than 21 times. And the defensive wounds on her own hands and fingers had been deep all the way to the bone. So when she was fighting back,

she had cut marks down to the bone. He had a couple superficial as though he had done it to himself was what one of the detectives had surmised. So attempting to find more information on Todd's history, detectives contacted the authorities that had handled Cathy's death way back in 1999. They spoke to former deputy sheriff Ricky Johnson who had responded to the scene the night Kathy died and when they called Ricky and said they're seeking information about Todd Winkler without even thinking he just said who did he kill this time? Even though the last one had been ruled an accident he

was like I don't fucking think so. Like how is that not damning evidence? That what? That... Like to hear something like that, who did he kill this time? Oh yeah, it's like, oh, the sheriff on the last case said that?

Yeah. It's pretty obvious. Ricky said in an interview that every officer has one case from their career that haunts them, and the car crash that killed Kathy is the case that haunts him. Wow. He said when he responded to the scene,

now this is kind of where I was mentioning the bug bite, so we'll get into more of the details. Ricky said that when he responded to the scene, Todd was sitting at the top of the slope, looking over the fire, burning the mountainside, just like watching his wife burn alive in there in the car. Oh my God. And according to Ricky, Todd said he was lying down in the bed of the truck on the way to the

hospital because he was experiencing this severe allergic reaction and struggling to breathe, which is how he was ejected out of the truck. And as Todd told Ricky the story, he had apparently miraculously recovered from this life-threatening allergic reaction. And despite being thrown from a vehicle careening down a mountain, he had no visible injuries. So they don't even believe that he fucking was in the car, you know? Because why would he put himself through the risk of that, right? Then they ask, where's the bug bite?

And he's like, I don't remember. I mean, that alone is fucking damning. Like, what do you mean? You're telling me you had such a bad life threatening injury to your body that you woke your wife up in the middle of the night and we're rushing to the hospital. And now you're like, oops, I forget where it was. Yeah. And like you said, to be ejected out of a car while already having trouble breathing, how are you able to run for help? And now you're like running around screaming for help

and you have no fucking scratches on you? Yeah, bullshit. Wow. Yeah, so Todd went back to his campsite alone to collect his belongings before further questioning, and the case ended up being passed along to the Georgia State Police. Other detectives noted that Todd seemed to have a knee injury as well as a few scrapes and bruises. It was possible that Todd had self-inflicted the

injuries at his campsite, but it was also possible that maybe Ricky hadn't noticed the injuries. But either way, like I said, it was determined she'd survived the initial crash and had died in the fire, which is just... was extra difficult for the arriving officers to deal with. Of course, this was a terrible tragedy, but there was just simply no physical evidence that indicated foul play. So they just... Even though things were fishy as fuck, they could not link this to him.

And so the crash and her death were officially declared accidental. And now fast forward 13 years and we have Rachel's death under very mysterious circumstances once again. When Cathy's friends and family, remember who had tried to call him over and over and he just disconnected his line and changed phone numbers,

when they hear about this, they're like, holy shit, he did kill Kathy. Like they immediately are like, he killed Kathy and Rachel. All they needed was like one solid sign. Yeah. I think they knew, but now they're like, oh, now we know. Yeah, exactly. So Christina, her sister and her best friend Julie became convinced that Todd had murdered Kathy and now Rachel. And like Ricky did in 99, detectives investigating Rachel's death started going, I don't know about these injuries.

Like you have these lacerations, but if you had picked up the baby after like this, basically like a scissor fight, and you picked up the baby, the bottle, you put on a fire, you made breakfast for the kids. There wasn't blood. He wasn't losing blood anywhere, indicating he would have made those marks on himself later.

Yeah, my uncle used to call them a case of the Hillby finds, of like, Hillby fine, like they're not that. Oh, Hillby fine, they're just a, right. So like- It is, it is but but a flesh wound or what do they say? Flesh wound. Monty Python. I feel like every time I hear that, like someone else was like stabbed 21 fucking times and you've just got like a case of the he'll be fines. And you're like, no, I'm injured. It's like you're fine.

Yeah, it's like, oh, oh, oh. And you're like, really? You just said you pushed your scissors into the love of your life's neck. Like don't be a fidey. Like this isn't evidence like you think it is. Like if you just walked away pretty much unscathed. Precisely.

And then proceeded to just run the house like normal and not get any blood anywhere. That doesn't make any sense. And remember he had said he picked up the baby and did a bottle like right away, like right away. And there should have been blood, but there wasn't. Exactly, but investigators did find blood. This is disturbing on a baby onesie

that was lying near the laundry room. And there were drops of blood on it. And so investigators thought, well, maybe once we test this blood, it'll corroborate Todd's story. And he like, you know, maybe he was kind of spilling blood and he leaned over this or walked past this onesie. So they tested the blood.

It was Rachel's blood. In other words, oh my God. They think perhaps she was holding the baby when he attacked and that the blood was from her wounds onto the baby, which he then took off the baby and threw into the laundry room to wash later, which again, talk about a fucking sociopath. So that just added like an extra element of disturbing qualities to this case. They also believe Todd, like I said, self-inflicted his wounds in those six

hours between killing Rachel and calling the neighbor. He was charged with first-degree murder two days after Rachel's death and his trial began more than two years later in September 2014. I don't know what the delay was about, but it was a pretty long delay. The judge allowed the prosecution, thankfully, to discuss Cathy's death and the circumstances surrounding her death, I know, from 1999.

And during the prosecution's opening statement, Todd took it upon himself to cause a scene, because that's what they do, these nut jobs. He suddenly started hitting his head with his own hands and screaming in Japanese. What the fuck is this guy's problem? He is a raging narcissist, I think. I don't know, like, I don't know.

He's just so unhinged because he starts screaming, you are not samurai, You do not speak truth Oh, you only want to destroy you have no Bushido. You have no Bushido So is he faking it or is like he is this like is he a crazy? He said no, he's got some good on okay. Okay When Todd was married to Kathy and still serving in the military He was stationed in Japan for a while where he served with a squadron known as the Fighting Samurai. And he had, wow, isn't this a red flag, a man becoming obsessed with samurai culture. And he believed in the concept of Bushido as the code of conduct

among samurai. And this outburst seemed shocking at first, and prosecutors were like, this is an act, like he wants to look unstable. And the defense was like, look, he's suffering from a dissociative disorder and conversion disorder. And basically everyone was like, I don't think so. Okay, so nobody fought for it, okay. No, well, I will say Dr. Lossy, this one expert witness on the side of the defense,

so, you know, on his defense team or brought forward by his defense team, Dr. Lossy claimed Todd's right hand was temporarily paralyzed and weakened. He's a psychiatrist by the way, that day by the conversion disorder, which is like basically when a mental disorder turns into a physical disorder.

And he says he believed that his hand had been paralyzed by conversion disorder. And when Rachel attacked him, he was weaker and more vulnerable than he would be normally. And that's why he felt like he had to fight for his life. I mean, it's just baloney. It's just a bunch of baloney. I'm not buying that. He had had an official history of psychiatric symptoms. In that years earlier, he had been caught shoplifting.

And when he was caught by his military commanding officer, he started screaming and appeared to have these psychiatric symptoms and was admitted to the army hospital and eventually left the military due to psychiatric disability Um, and some people did say his behavior would become erratic Every now and then he would sometimes verbally attack his employers. Um, he would claim to be getting no sleep But rachel's friends claim that todd told rachel he faked the entire incident because he wanted to sue his company So honestly, who do I believe? No one. He's also telling on himself then at that point.

Yeah, it is. OK. Regardless of his prior struggles with mental health, the prosecution was pretty confident that he was mentally and physically capable of understanding what was going on the day he killed Rachel and that no disability from conversion disorder would have prevented him from being able to use his hand to attack her. I mean, he even described the attack in his own words. Right.

Although Todd was only on trial for Rachel's death, jurors did hear testimony from witnesses regarding Cathy's death too. And I like to think Cathy was in the beyond going like, hell yeah, you know? Yeah, truly. It's about fucking time. And one of the testimonies was from

Kathy's former colleagues who said that Kathy took out a large life insurance policy with Todd just weeks before she died in the car crash. And her coworkers knew about this. So of course a huge red flag. But the prosecution believed Todd might've killed Kathy for the insurance payment. And it was possible that Todd killed Rachel

with that same intent. So documents were presented to the court that showed Rachel and Todd in substantial debt as Brandi, the best friend, had kind of sussed out. And if they had gotten divorced, Todd would have owed Rachel thousands of dollars every month, not only in alimony, but also child support. And they think that would have been the trigger

that she brought up getting a divorce that morning with the stress of the debt and all of this and the affair. And that led to the attack. Gotcha. So Todd's defense objected to this linking of Rachel's death and Cathy's death, saying they had nothing to do with each other and his lawyer insisted that this is simply life.

What? Is it? C'est la vie. C'est la vie, qu'est ce que ce sera? You know how it goes. What the fuck are you even talking about? This is just how it goes. What are you talking about?

Are you trying to gaslight them? That's not working. That's stupid. Like, what are you doing? They said it's simply life and it's simply bad luck that he lost two wives in traumatic incidents. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Was that laugh part of the quote?

Cause that felt evil. Yeah, right. It's like, fucking Satan laughing in the background. So Rachel's brother, David Hatfield, took the stand and described the numerous red flags of violence he had spotted in Rachel's brother, David Hatfield, took the stand and described the numerous red flags of violence he had spotted in Rachel's marriage to Todd. Here's an example. He testified that he was once out with the couple, his sister and Todd, for drinks along

with his girlfriend Elsa. And Todd was talking about airplane purchases, you know, as you do, and said that if someone made a bad deal, he'd strangle them and to demonstrate, he wrapped his hands around Rachel's throat and shook her quote strangely violently. Then saying nothing else, he got up to use the bathroom. Elsa asked Rachel, Hey, are you okay? And she apparently burst into tears and would just look at the floor.

Oh my god. Yeah. OK. Brother was like, this is bad. This is bad, bad news. Red flag central. You know? Wow. I wonder at what point because remember her dad got that warning of, like, don't let her marry him. I wonder at what point he was like, oh, this is what they were talking about. I know. I don't think he realized it maybe even until.

It was too late. Yeah. I'm not that this fall. I just wonder, like when the pieces kind of got put together for the family. I think he realized that maybe even until it was too late. Yeah. Honestly, you know? I just wonder when the pieces kind of got put together for the family. I think it was all way too late. Well, obviously. But that must just be so hard, all the hindsight, you know?

All the hindsight. Because you don't think this could ever happen in real life, you know? Oh my god, that's so sad. It's scary, too. And also, you know the confidence to do it in front of other people. And just know you're going to get away with it.

Sick. It's sick. Yeah. And again, points to narcissism, sociopathy, et cetera. So Eric Davis, who was Todd's supervisor at the pharmaceutical company, testified as well. And Eric said Todd often spoke of Rachel suffering severe depression and perhaps alcohol use disorder. And Eric, the boss, had been under the impression that Rachel's depression was so debilitating she was unable to care for the children because Todd was even mentioning that he would have to take time off to help care for his wife Rachel because she was so debilitated. She was not.

Eric also recalled Todd describing the accident that had killed his first wife, Kathy, and Todd apparently told Eric, his boss, that he was still in the vehicle when it stopped and caught on fire. So now he's just telling the story as if he's some sort of combat hero, I guess. But he can't fight off a 100-pound girl, though. I know, which is just, it's just like,

because of his conversion disorder, you know? Right. So he was trapped, he claimed to his boss, but just before the fire hit him, he managed to kick his way out to safety. What, and then stood at the top of the hill and watch his wife burn to death? Yeah, it didn't kick the wife's window out.

Okay. Yeah. So on February 12th, 2012, weeks before he killed Rachel, Todd had texted Eric, the same guy, the boss, that he might be out of work all week due to a serious home situation and that he was, quote, trying to get Rachel stabilized. Now, hearing the, yeah, and hearing these stories and knowing the reality of Rachel's mental health

that she was perfectly fine and was really happy with this new guy and literally had no history of any issues or violence or anything. It was just really jarring for a jury to see that because it was like, oh, this guy has just been lying, like manipulating his boss, making up stories. That's wild.

It's sick, it's really gross. And so seeing that, it was really jarring. And especially when he told police that he was ejected from the bed of the truck and then this boss saying, oh, he told me he was inside the fiery vehicle, you know? And so they're all hearing this out loud and it's sort of like, this isn't a good look for him.

He's looking more and more like he's kind of unstable and making stuff up. So on October 22nd, 2014, the jury deliberated for just one hour before declaring Todd guilty of first degree murder. And he was sentenced to 26 years to life for the murder of his wife, Rachel. The conviction and sentence was a relief to Rachel's loved ones. Kathy's sister and best friends likewise were happy to have found some justice, but they wished obviously they had been able to get, Kathy's death declared more than an accident,

but at the very least they were able to testify and get her story out there. They thought that if he was responsible and were convicted back then, there's also that hindsight of, maybe Rachel would still be alive. Maybe he would have gone to jail after the car crash. And of course, the sheriff who had arrived on scene also feels like,

man, I wish we could have stopped him then before I got that phone call 13 years later. Don, for his side of things, that's Rachel's dad. He just felt such a weight lift when the jury announced the conviction, but of course has to live without the presence of his own daughter every single day. And he did adopt all three of the kids, which is really sweet. And he said it was like a tremendous upheaval in his life, but also just a really wonderful thing that Rachel left behind and like he gets to be in their lives. He said in a 2015 interview, I have these three children who are exceptional reminders

of her beauty, of her character, personality and presence. They are two little girls and a boy. They are articulate and they talk about mommy almost as if she is present. Oh. It's like so sad. Rachel's beauty and shining personality also live on in Dawn's art

because he and his daughter were both artists And he's a respected and skilled impressionist painter and he has painted a lot of pictures of Rachel Just beautiful paintings and he said whenever I painted her face. I painted better Oh my god. He's like a very eloquent man very with with his feelings Very emotionally aware, which I love. So that's the story of Rachel Winkler and also Kathy. It's just, you just, it's just these fucking abusers, man. It makes me furious. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Well. Fuck them. Yeah. I know that's a hot take. Relax. That's too political for this. I know. What were we going to talk about in our.

Yeah, yeah. Oh, your flight school situation. Oh, I got to talk about that fucking airplane, man. I mean, talk about traumatizing and then you got to tell me about your hot air. Traumatizing. Well, if you want to join us, you can go to Patreon dot com slash. Not drink. Am I OK? No, I'm not either. I literally was going to say beachy sandy

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