And That's Why We Drink - E448 Swimfluencer Celebrations and Microphone Zits

Episode Date: September 7, 2025

It's episode 448 and we're here to yap our booties off! This week Em takes us to France for the The Moberly–Jourdain incident aka the Versailles Time Slip. Then Christine covers a case she's been wanting to share since she heard the Dateline podcast series, The Thing About Pam in a Ross Dress for Less, the murder of Betsy Faria. And sound off below on what color gatorade you would want poured over your head if you were a sports celebrity (aka an athlete)... and that's why we drink! For And That’s Why We Drink listeners, Cure is offering 20% off your first order! Stay hydrated and feel your best by visiting http://curehydration.com/drink and using promo code drink at checkout. Stop putting off those doctors appointments and go to http://zocdoc.com/drink to find and instantly book a top-rated doctor today. Visit http://cornbreadhemp.com/drink and use code DRINK at checkout for 30% off your first order! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Em goes, I'm ready when you are and then I, and then M starts talking. So I thought, oh, okay, I thought that I was supposed to kind of go off. But I, I thought maybe, maybe it's sound, Maybe, I don't know, maybe you were talking to yourself. I'm ready when you are. I think probably. I forgot. Maybe had nothing to do with me. Yeah.

It had nothing to do with you. Just your own pep talk to yourself. It was kind of like my own locker room where I was like, huh, ooh, ooh, hoo, getting really. You were doing that and you were like smashing gatorade bottles on your forehead. It was like really intense. If you were a celebrity where they like drop a whole thing of gatorade on you because you won the big game, what color of Gatorade are you hoping for?

like that you call them a celebrity like not like an athlete sure a sports celebrity if you were a basketball celebrity um okay i'm sorry what color uh you know something like you would something like really ill thought out like not well thought out i would do red because it's my favorite and then it would be covered in red dye 40 and i'm also allergic to red 40 so like slightly not allergic but i like irritated skin so i probably would be just like in hives as a celebrity i'd make it on the cover of of some tabloid surely some celebrity magazine like sports illustrated some celebrity sports magazines yeah i'd probably be on sports illustrated for kids with my like big faux pa what about you yours would probably be gross like orange or lemon or lime or some shit hurtful um i i i mean those

are some of my favorite flavors if i were doing it for the optics on television i think it'd be most grabby to do like the one of the blues i was thinking that too actually and i like that great what about a frost like would that look cool or would that just look like dirty mop water you know what i mean like i feel like if you put a grayish blue the purple one would look cool but it also might be looking like fabuloso you know that's a good point that's a good point i think i would for for the vibes well i don't know it depends what the sport is because i would want to color theory wise if i'm doing it against like green grass i guess you want red so it pops versus like somewhere else i want maybe blue against like a yellow orange basketball court you know what i mean so where is

this uh red carpet i mean sporting event taking place because that would also like make a difference that sound just never come out of my mouth that's like a dragon let me think i um you know i'd like i don't know i have no idea like a basketball court is like orangey a field is green a pool is blue so then you I want, like, yellow Gatorade. Yeah. Well, no, no, you want red because then it goes in the water, like, shark, you know. Or, like, someone's on their period. Okay, that's my answer then.

That's what I'd like, like, all of a sudden I'd like to be a swimming celebrity. Suddenly, you're a swim celebrity. I'm like, RJ. He actually is. He actually recently just hit 50K on social media. Yeah, I was like, scroll through TikTok and he's always coming up on my FYP, and I'm like, anytime I see a pool, I'm like, there's my pool side guy. My RJ right there. He was trying to be a swim fluencer.

That's the thing. And it's so funny because then they try to show me other swim stuff. And I'm like, no, no, no. You've misunderstood. I don't. I'm not in that life. I just follow RJ and support from the sidelines. There's only one naked man I want on my screen.

Right. Well, I wouldn't go that far. But I will say, as far as, like, swimming content about how to swim, it's like, not really something I'm looking for on as far as, like, tuning out. Oh, do you like my new microphone thing? Yeah. So you look like, by the way, a celebrity you like you're singing i don't know why i did this i just felt like holding a microphone

instead of the one that keeps swinging around and creaking and hitting me in the knee well i'm sure i know why because you've been on tour it does it feel like you're on the stage oh sorry yeah and you know what i realized this is so embarrassing they have like this like disinfectant for mics and i was like oh yeah that's good that they have that because when i i feel like afterward i get like i keep hitting my face on it and I get like zits on my chin and I'm like that's embarrassing like how close am I putting this microphone on my face yeah I've got that other people are just like constantly talking into so yeah I feel like we've all been there if you've done a show on the stage many times like I don't know if anyone else else has been there maybe if you're in like a choir or something

but or do like shows stand up whatever but man I feel like at a certain point and also think about like all the other people like spit on it like what if that rubs against your face there to there have been a few times where like I taught I got so close to the microphone like my teeth bumped into it and I was like did everyone just hear it go clink yeah yes uh probably at least because I always think the same thing so we must just be okay glad it's not just me because that would have been really embarrassing if you were like horrified it's kind of like when leona was like leaning into the yeah yeah yeah yeah and it's like is that what I do like do I just sound like that the whole time maybe and then my teeth just hitting it like it sounds like I'm the worst live

performer ever but how is tour going it's good we've been um we've been we have like a month now before the next show so when this comes out i think we'll be like heading to texas and omaha and all sorts of places so and portland and seattle so nice then check us out you just had shows last night yesterday i did in detroit and indianapolis how was it and it was very fun um it was very fun i just I, they were easy to make fun of. Okay. They were easy to find one-star reviews. I'll say it that way.

I mean, kind of every city is. But yeah, no, it's been really fun. It's been pretty low-key. It's been a lot of sibling bonding, which, you know, has its ups and downs. Yeah, you know, it's, it's, I'm tired, but what else is new? I don't think I've known a moment you weren't tired. The day you're like, I feel refreshed. I'm going to go, oh, my God, called the police.

True. Something's gone terribly wrong. Yeah, it's good, though, but what are you up to? Do you have a reason you drink this week? I'm trying to think of, you know, what day it is or where I am. Me either, but I don't have as good of a reason as you. Today, I think I drink for a good reason. I don't know, I'm being a little preemptive here,

but it feels like a stormy, cloudy kind of day. fun now I also maybe have just slept through this part of the day too much recently and this is just what it always looks like and then it gets crazy hot but right now it feels like there's promise of it being kind of cooler today okay in which case it won't be as miserable some autumnal vibes yeah yeah yeah which I know is just like not going to happen for quite a while but it I today I feel like there's there's hope that one day it won't be so miserable this comes out in September and so we're recording well in advance so maybe by the time it comes out you'll have gotten a little cloud cover you know maybe that's a great point so maybe this is actually just like a taste of the real time that the people are hearing this right right it'll just be more relevant for everybody you know yeah um I don't think I I have anything else I did you get a bevy I have a beverage you know my door dash came I had it sent out as you do

I sent out. You sent out for your your bevy. I did. And I got two because I knew I'd chug one so now I've got

another one for sipping. Right. What did you order? It just got me a little iced tea. Nice. Something gentle

for the tummy. Just a gentle little tea. Well, I woke up today feeling kind of like crap and I was, I've heard that it's a cortisol thing. I don't know how true that is,

but sometimes I wake up and I think I wake up earlier than my body or brain are prepared for and then I feel like I want to throw up. You know what I mean? Oh,

like physically? sick? Like, I feel nauseous and, like, disgusting. Oh, weird. And I've heard that's a cortisol thing that, like, my body just hasn't caught up yet. But anyway, I felt like poop. Oh, no, I hate that. It's figured out now.

I think I just need to eat something. I mean, that usually helps, yeah. Yeah. Anyway, why do you drink? Well, um, Leona starts preschool on Monday. I need to cry. It's so scary. And she's, she's like, she's like growing up.

She's a little kid. And she's like just, just a little kid. She's like a three-year-old. I don't know. It's just crazy. I'm like, this is. I know. And when this comes out, it'll be less than a month before she's four.

Shut up. I literally sometimes in my mind, I still think she just learned how to chew. Like I. Right. Like she barely knows how to fucking roll over. And now it's like, oh, good. She slammed the door my face and said, like, I can't even think of an example because it's just so beyond my comprehension.

Anyway, it's all very fun and wonderful, but slipping through my finger. Wow. Yeah, it's, it just goes fast, man. It's like, I know they say that. I know it's a cliche, but it's a true cliche. And it's exciting. It's fun, and it's great that, like, she'll be in school all day. So it's like, hey.

Sure. You made it. You finally got to this spot where you. I know, it really feels like I got a lot. more time on my hands all of a sudden. You're about to actually say you feel refreshed and I'm going to go wait a minute here. Yeah, right. I filled every waking minute with like other shit to do that I should just be easing to sleep. But yeah, no, no, no, it'll be, it'll be good, but it's just a little bittersweet, you know. It's wild. I really, it's not even my kid and I don't even see her all that often, but it really does feel like she's only been here for like a year. And now you're

saying there's been four of them. No, I know it's so trippy because I'm like, I just moved here and then I'm like well that was like five years ago you know um whoa it's just crazy but i'll probably post a little back to school photo but like obviously X out all the identifying details um but yeah no it's exciting and she's really happy and she like loves going to school and seeing friends and stuff so obviously one of the important questions to ask where in which depending on how you answer i'll judge you as a mother um your favorite question to be asked Um, yeah, most of them. Did you take her back to school shopping?

Not yet. We're in a little tricky situation because she was signed up for one school and we started there in the summer and then, um, we managed to get her into a school that was much closer to our house and we preferred it and so we're kind of switching, but she was also in a different school in the spring and so, or like a toddler program. And so now this is her third school this year and she's getting a little freaked out. So we're trying to like, very low key but we did like a um i do have like a little plan for the day before um because they say

you can bring in like a stuffy for like rest time and stuff so we're gonna like have her you know pick out a special school stuffy and you know all that stuff and um got her like a dino rancher's like nat mat a little sleeping bag that she's obsessed with and did she get to if she didn't go school shopping and like pick out like folders and stuff i don't think she even needs folders yeah they don't have that yeah it's like the literal shopping list is stuffed animals nap mat and like raincoat so i was like well i'm not taking her to pick all that out because i'm gonna wait till they're on sale and buy the ones i i like you know does she have a particular i guess what i'm getting to is that you get to pick out like a backpack or lunchbox

could there i ask what the lunchbox is the lunchbox is the lunchbox is spidey love it of course um and then the backpack is uh lion king which she doesn't really watch lion king but i you know her name's leona And she likes lion. It's her favorite animal. So you're indoctrinating her. Well, and my sister worked at Adidas outlet, so I got 60% off. So I was like, here we go. So I bought that.

And then she has her spidey lunchbox. But yeah, I mean, she's so low-key, you know, it's fine. She'll get her little nap mat and her, and that's kind of all they have at age three or four. They don't really need highlighters and shit yet, I guess. Oh, she does have a Lilo and Stitch pencil. case that she gives place to buy her um she is so cool so she does carry that around um yeah no it's fun it's just and it's fun because like we're doing like shrinky dinks together now and like stuff that i like have a lot of fun doing too so it's fun because it's like oh she's like more of a kid like we can

interact and play but it's also like oh i know but it's got it's got to be fun to be able to like now actually have like two-sided fun versus like i'm watching her and we're calling it It is. And she makes me laugh. Like she's funny. So it's like, oh, this is actually can be really fun. Yeah. We're just, sometimes. We're just yapping. We're just hanging out. We're just yapping. And we're like, let's talk about that, you know. And then she'll go, and she'll go, Christine. And I'm like, yeah. And then I go, wait, what did she just call me? And she's like, where did Blaze go? And I'm like, okay. So, you know, three going on 16, I guess. But, um, yeah. Very cute. Well, what do you drink this week? Not why, but what? What else is new? I got my never-ending angry orchard box in my mini fridge. It does kind of feel like Mary Poppins.

Like every time I open, I'm like, there's still some left. But I'm not complaining. So cheers. Got some cider and you got some tea, and we're going to chug-a-lug along. We're just going to yap. That's what we do best. We're going to yap our booties off, I guess. All right.

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CureR is offering 20% off your first order. Stay hydrated and feel your best by visiting Curehydration.com slash drink and using promo code drink at checkout. That's curehydration.com slash drink and use code drink for 20% off your first order. Well, I've got something extra neat for your day. I am pretty jazzed about these notes. It's not your everyday haunting. Okay.

And I got me a feeling you're going to like it just based on your past interests. So I'm just going to say a title and then you tell me where we stand. Okay. Go for it. You just get ready for that. Okay. There's two names to it. The first one you're not going to care so much about.

It's called by name the Moberly Jordan incident. But it is also known as the Versailles. time slip. Ah! Okay, first of all, you know I love an incident. I love and hate an incident, but I'm intrigued by an incident. I love an incident when I'm not involved. In the nighttime, you know?

Yeah, I get it. I just always feel that an incident is something worth pursuing maybe from afar. But so I am intrigued deeply. And to hear it's a time slip now, count me in. Yes, you're right. Spoken like a true detective from the beginning of that sentence to the end. That's right. That was exactly very intelligently put.

It was. You were like, I feel like a, I feel like an incident is worth pursuing. Okay, Olivia Dunson. I forget what I actually even said. So thank you for reminding me, but I'm glad it sounded relatively coherent. Perfect. Okay. So, uh, the year is 1901.

Or is it? Or is it? Uh, do, do, do, do, do it's actually August 1901 and our two main characters, which I love that their initials are C and E, love that. Aw. Um, our Charlotte, her full name is Charlotte and Moberly. I'm just going to call her Charlotte, Big C. Um, and then Eleanor Jordane.

Aw. And. Charlotte and Eleanor. Okay. I know. Like, relax. Such Victorian names. I love it.

I know. Like, they're way too fancy for me. Mm-hmm. So Charlotte, I'm just going to give you some backstory on like how they were viewed in town. Um, just to give you an idea of how. of the reputation i suppose right so charlotte her father was a college headmaster he was also the bishop of salisbury whoa and that sounds important it does and also she was the first principal of st hugh's college which i guess was the women's part of oxford university at the time oh okay

wow so she president the first president of the women's college of oxford all right um eleanor uh ends up being Charlotte's vice president or vice principal, sorry, and also her eventual successor. So when Charlotte dies far off into the future, Eleanor took over as principal. Okay, okay, okay. So predecessor, sort of. Yes. So Eleanor, successor. Successor.

Successor. You're right. Yes. Thank you. Eleanor also tutors kids in Paris. She authored many textbooks that, and what's happening? I just remembered what this story is. This is, I've only heard about it one time anyway, of course, on Astonishing Legends,

but it was like so mind-blowing and I am so excited right now. I just realized what you said earlier and it's coming together in my head. The French thing got me teaching French. Anyone in like the Versailles time slipped and do it for you, but okay. I know. That's why I'm like, what is wrong with me? But there's a, see, there's a Versailles in Kentucky that they pronounce Versailles. In Kentucky, they call it for sales.

Exactly. So I very quickly, my brain went to that. And then I kind of forgot about Paris for a minute. Everyone watching this on YouTube thought you were leaning in for a kiss because that was, your eyes got so white and near. Is that what I look like when I leaned for a kiss? Oh, no. Oh, no. Yeah, just bug eyes.

Just approaching. No, sorry. You said, for some reason it was about her tutoring French because they went on a big thing about, like, how much French would she know and would she know the history versus? as a language i don't know that's they get in the weeds on that show so i i remember that specifically but oh my god i'm so excited okay i actually on my own also thought i was like how much french does she know because they end up speaking to people and i assume they would speak in french right that's what i was wondering it's intriguing right it's like huh yeah um so yeah eleanor so she's currently the vice principal she's eventually going to be the principal after charlotte

she tutors kids in paris she authored a lot of textbooks that they ended up using in the school Um, she also helped found and was in charge of a boarding school day school. And her father was a vicar of Ashburn in Derbyshire, I think. Oh my Christ. All these names. The titles. I know. The really all you need to remember is that they were both relatively esteemed academics.

They were. Right. Right. They weren't some Joe Shmo's on the street. Especially in 1901. Right. For women too, right? Like, yeah.

That's, you know, to find educated and like, academic. yeah people in academics yeah um so that's really you don't have to remember any of the information just know that they were like well to do or at least seem that way um so before actually working together as principal vice principal the two decided like let's get to know each other first let's take a trip to France I can't imagine that we were like let's start a podcast they were like let's go to Versailles I was like let's go to Versailles I think The first time when you and I hung out, we were like, let's sit on a tractor and see how this goes. That's right.

We went to a hay ride. And if it doesn't work out, we'll never talk to each other again. But they went to fucking Bursales, as you said. Shit, no wonder we didn't get a time slip at the hay, at the tractor ride. Maybe we did. Maybe this is all one big time slip. And then we'll blank and I'm 24 again. That'd be lovely.

Would it be? Go all the way back? I don't think so. Don't take me back. Please. Well, okay, I only saw this on one source, but I just still want to put it out there for the vibes that apparently on this day

in France, it was a very particularly stormy day. Lots of electrical energy in the air as you do. Interesting. So the women go and check out the Palace of Versailles and love this for them. They weren't all that impressed. That would have

also been me. I'd be like, girl, let's go somewhere else. Oh, Kim Kardashian and Kanye base their house off this. Big whoop. You know, if that's how you to me. I'm such a stupid American. If you told me that, I'd be 10% more inclined to go. I think they actually did. Or it was either that or they, maybe they designed or they tried to hold their wedding there. There was something about the Kardashians having to do with Versailles. I'm pretty sure,

but I could be wrong on that. I'm so impressed that you're teaching me about this. I mean, I could also be just completely making it up and like teaching you less, like making you dumber, you know, which is entirely possible. It couldn't be possible. I'm already as dumb as they come. But I love the rule reversal. Oh, they did get married at Versailles. Okay. Lovely. Isn't that nuts? I... First of all, to not be impressed is crazy and I don't believe you, because this fucking place is crazy. I wonder, this is so stupid. I wonder if it's because it was 1901 and like the history was all a little closer. Like, it didn't feel so like, like this ancient landmark. I don't know. Right. Right. It was still like 100 years later since everything. I don't

know. And also it was like so glamorous and like upscale. You wouldn't see something like that even on TV. Like you didn't have TV to like see pictures and stuff. So I'm like it's really. Okay. I mean, whatever. Whatever. It is it is shocking. Although I, you know, at the same time, I know that I if I'm not invested in the history of a certain landmark to me, it's just a building. And I so maybe that was what they were going through. As French people. as French, they went there to like learn about France and I mean, okay, here's what I'll say. Maybe it was like one of those situations that I read about on Yelp, like a one star review where I was like, oh, we got like a rude comment from somebody who worked there and then like it was really muddy and we got our like little stockings all in a mud puddle and, you know, maybe they just had a bad experience and they were like, oh, they did. Oh, okay, fair point. Fair enough. So yeah, they were disappointed i guess i could give them that yeah sorry i didn't mean to interrupt you that is a good point no you're right um yeah i don't know it's not like honestly also given the time period in 1901

it's not like they have like arcades and escape rooms to go to on top of it like saying like it's not even like you have fake stuff like this like disney world to go to like pretend you're at versaa you know all you had was big boring history come on yeah all he had his books boo i'm sorry i education's important um anyway um um I just don't believe they were not impressed. I like to think maybe they were just, like, disappointed about something, like a muddy, I'm going to go with the muddy stockings. Sure.

The, I think the reason that a lot of sources, it was not just one source, a lot of sources, a story has become that they were uninterested. And I think it's only proven by the fact that at some point they wandered off from their tour group and, like, didn't seem interested in. So maybe the tour was dusty and crusty. Maybe the tour guide was just kind of like not good at his job. He wasn't engaging. 1901. Yeah, maybe he was like rude to the women. Yeah, who knows? Maybe. Um, and also, I mean...

That's like quite a stretch. Maybe he was just an asshole. I mean, it could be. Well, also, they seemed more interested in the garden specifically. So maybe they were like, let's just ditch this tour because I don't care about the inside. I want to go see the gardens. All the like gilded nonsense. Yeah, like go to the gardens. That's fair. Yeah. Something like that. So, um, the women go check out the palace. allegedly are not impressed then they head to an area called the Petit Trianon, which I am absolutely butchering with my accent, sorry. That sounds good. Thank you.

To me, not that I know. Oh, yeah, no. Whoa. So, in case you don't know what this place is, I did not. It was a private chateau on the property that was originally given to 19-year-old,

Mary Antoinette, by her husband, Louis XVIth. and he gave it to her to use as kind of like an escape from the world and as an escape room oh you know I lied they did go to an escape room that day um so yeah it was just given to Mary Antoinette by her husband as like her sheeshet a treat a she shed yes except a beautiful private chateau right same thing um a she chateau that's so cute it's beautiful she chateau You know she calls it a shishi. Oh, it is.

Oh, au revoir. On my way to my shishi. Oh, revoir. Bizu, bizu, bizu. Ciao, chow. Chow, chow. Back to my shishi. Oh, man.

We would be so lobotomized in France. We would have been locked into a she shed, if you know what I mean. We would have been put away for life. And all you would hear for the rest of time is that's just going, she-she, she-she. Yeah, like giggling to ourselves. Yeah, they would have made the right decision, I think. Yeah. Okay. So anyway, yes, the Petitreino is her she-she. And the French have turned this off for sure.

Oh, imagine like a cute little cabin. It's like your she-she-she-shed. Okay, it's fine. Don't worry about it. We'll talk about another time. I can't discuss it right now. That's what we should have called the plunger for. We should call it our shishi. Okay, so on their way to the shishi, they got lost. And keep in mind, the gardens here are like, I don't even, I would. wouldn't even be able to grasp the scope of this, but they're like five miles long in all different directions with like hedges and all sorts of places. It's very easy to get lost.

Right. They're just like sprawling. They're kind of sprawling. And they were intentionally looking for this area, the Shishi area, but they got lost. Or the area that they were walking to was closed and so they decided that they were going to try to just find a new way in

basically. Like a oh, where's a back entrance? And the since it's, obviously closed, but I won't settle for that. We're going to go find a workaround. A portal, perhaps. Accidentally, maybe a portal. So they try to find their way around.

A lot of skeptics will say they simply just got lost and don't know what they're talking about, and that's the end of this story. I mean, if that were me, yes, that would be the answer. But I don't think that they were a lot smarter than me. And I think they were also a lot more had their wits about them. And to be fair, they had a travel guidebook that like was telling them exactly how to get around so they're like we've literally had a map with us we were following the map and we still just couldn't figure it out they're traveling as adult women like it's not like they're like

little kids who've never left home before like they're grown working women with an academic background yeah i just feel like it's a stretch to say they're just too dumb to like understand they got lost but well so they are figuring their way over to the petitronan and they end up passing right by the wide main street that would have taken them there almost as if they somehow didn't even see the path right in front of them. Dun, done, done.

While walking on the property, the air seemed to get very intense, very quickly, and the energy shifted. OMG. To a point where they were quoted saying birds stopped singing and leaves stopped rustling.

It just became very silent. It's like aliens. I know. So the world around them gets eerily silent and they recalled the sun even setting in a weird way where it casts an odd glow on everything but with no shadows. Ew!

What is that? It's so like Truman Show. That's so creepy. They both started feeling weirdly sad, depressed even. And Eleanor says it was, quote, as if I were walking in my sleep

and the heavy dreaminess was oppressive. So while walking, they actually spot a woman leaning out of her window shaking a cloth as if she's doing laundry but weirdly she seems to be moving

in slow motion this is so creepy to me they also happen across what looked like an abandoned farmhouse or farm houses depending on the source with a lot of outdated farm equipment

sitting out front of the buildings including a very old looking plow even in 1901 they were like this place I was very fucking old. Why would it be here? Wow. I'm not impressed.

Yeah, I'm not impressed. Keep it moving. Charlotte remembers thinking that it was in Eleanor's character to stop and ask people for directions. And since they saw this woman shaking out this cloth, she thought it was weird that Eleanor didn't stop and say, hey, can you show us the way to the Petitri and all? So that's just something to remember for later. Intriguing. Okay. That Eleanor didn't seem to start up a conversation.

uh well while still wondering the grounds and looking for the area they bump into two men who they assume are gardeners because next to them is a wheelbarrow and i think a shovel um so they assumed they were gardeners however they were dressed in funny looking long green and gray coats and they also wore tricorn hats which were no longer of the era the two men pointed the women to continue straight on their path but they but the women and remember that they spoke in weird mechanical manners. Oh. Like animatronics or something. Yeah, this feels like they are at Disney World, like by accident. You know what I mean? Like a fake version. Can you imagine if they just went over to Disneyland Paris and that was it?

That was. The time slipped into Disneyland Paris. Yeah. Problem solved. So they continued on the path again after seeing this one woman moving in slow motion, Eleanor seemingly not noticing her. and then these mechanical men in old-fashioned clothing. Eleanor then remembers them walking past a cottage

and seeing a woman and a girl standing by the doorway, also an outdated clothes. And the woman seemed to be in the middle of passing a jug to the young girl, but Eleanor said that the two looked eerily still. So like she was handing her the jug, but no one was grabbing for it. She wasn't reaching any. It was almost like they were a painting, like the mannequins. Oh, so it's like in frozen, like, in, like, mid-movement.

Oh, God. Like mannequins, yeah. Yeah, yuck. So this is when she also noticed that not only was the world around them strangely silence, but everything, not just the women and girl, seemed flat and lifeless. She said that even the trees look two-dimensional. They also, like the sun, didn't cast any shade or shadows on anything. And Eleanor said, everything looked unnatural and therefore,

unpleasant. Ooh, you know what? And that feels like that uncanny valley, right? And then you feel dread because it's like, this feels like normal life except there are no, there are no normal, natural things that are supposed to be here. That must feel so disorienting. Especially if the like three encounters they've had so far is that one person's in slow motion, one, two people are mechanical and another one is acting like a mannequin.

It's like none of them are acting like real people. of the moment. Yeah, all of it feels less and less like comforting as you go. And then like realizing, wait a minute, there's no sound, there's no, like that's got to be fucking terrifying. Like even the atmosphere is uncanny valley

if there's no sound. Or like shadow. Yeah. Can you imagine no shadow? Just everything's the same, just lit the same no matter where you'd look. It's really unsettling. Yeah.

As they continued on, uh, the two women began to feel an even heavier. sadness and soon they came across a wooden kiosk, which I didn't really understand what a kiosk was, but it's essentially like a stand, like a concession stand. That's what it looked like to me. Right, right. In the kiosk sat a man with a cape and a wide-brimmed hat. So good. Just the man I wanted to see. Lord Lickrish from Candyland. I was going to say either the hat man, yep, there you go, or Lord Lickrish. It's always one of them. It's got to be one of

so they saw this man he apparently had a very sinister air about him great um when he did look up at them from under his hat he was glaring in a really dark way his energy was super dark um apparently they didn't even feel like he was totally looking at them but through them almost as if he didn't even notice them um eleanor was quoted saying the man slowly turned his face which was marked by small pox and his complexion was very dark. The expression was evil and yet unseeing. And though I did not feel that he was looking particularly at us, I felt a repugnance to going past him.

So they were afraid to even move near him. They didn't even, and they didn't even think he saw them. They were just like, he is not good vibes. Wow, that's creepy. Yeah. I mean, I can't imagine looking in the eyes of someone who's not looking in your eyes. But like still feeling terrified of them, even though they can't see you? in a way that you can't go past them.

You can't walk past something that can't even see you. Ew, I just got like skull chills. Scalp chills. Yeah. Skills. No. So they didn't have those. No.

They didn't say anything to the man. The man didn't say anything to them. But while feeling really uncomfortable near this guy, soon another man ran up to the women to talk to them. The woman said he had a very different energy. He did dress weirdly like everybody else. else had so far but they remembered how nice he seemed and apparently this man told them you're going the wrong way which duh this the vibe of this other man told me that but yeah you're going the wrong way you need to turn right and get back to the house do you think he knew ah in my i mean that

is an interesting point because my no one else saw them but this guy did right yeah i had and he had a good energy like he must have been like i will guide you back you've accidentally entered the wrong space listen to me you have to leave yeah yeah yeah oh i have chills and i wonder if for him maybe like what if he thought he was seeing a glitch in the matrix in some way because he was like these two women look really fucking weird compared to everybody else in this world like they're not from here you know i wonder if on the flip side i wonder if they both had a time slip and saw each other but then wouldn't he just be like what the fuck is that yeah i guess he would I don't know. Maybe not. Maybe he's like, ah. I don't know. Ah, a time slip. Ah, indeed. I've been waiting for one of these.

Another one. I've been waiting. To be fair, if I ever experienced a time slip, my first thought would be, ah, I've waited a long time for this. You're right. Although we do have Reddit, and I feel like we got primed via Reddit versus them back then didn't really have that kind of access. But, you know, who knows? Fair point. So the guy says, you're not supposed to be here. You have to turn right and get home or get back to the main house. And so the woman They turn right They start walking They turn around a few moments later To thank him And he has disappeared Not only that

The man in the wide brim hat Has disappeared And the entire wooden kiosk has disappeared Oh shit! Okay They follow his directions On how to get back Or they think they're heading back

But then they realize They're walking over a bridge They walk through an arbor And they walk through a meadow and just walk and walk and walk in and soon they realize that they are in this garden where they see a nearby building

with a chapel and they have reached the Petitriano so he ended up guiding them straight to where they wanted to go anyway that's good and once they arrived Charlotte kept talking about how kept talking about in her she was just bitching about this whole she's just fucking yapping

But in her account, one of the things that she mentioned very heavily was that once they arrived to this garden and in the Petitri and all, the first thing she noticed was that there was this woman in the garden sketching some of the trees. Oh, okay. Some sources say that this woman was sitting in the grass. Some say she was sitting on a terrace. It doesn't matter. She was in the garden and she was sketching the trees.

Charlie actually described her by saying she had on a shady white hat perched on a good deal of fair hair that fluffed around her forehead. Her light summer dress was arranged on her shoulders and her dress was old-fashioned and rather unusual, specifically the fact that she had on a green shawl. Okay. So Charlotte recalls this woman sketching, and ever since they made eyes or recognized each other,

she remembers this woman just staring at her the entire time and refusing to look away. Spooky. when the women continued to walk around the gardens the same woman that was staring at Charlotte kept staring at her

like as they were walking the whole garden kept staring at her that's so creepy and Charlotte even said that the longer she looked at the woman the more she realized that the woman was quote pale, melancholic

and strangely translucent soon as they're walking past that building with a chapel that's in the garden and a man comes running out of the chapel he throws the door open he runs out and he's like you're way too close to this chapel this is the queen's private entrance you can't be here and he directs them back to the main house and from there they end up meeting up with their original tour group whoa okay um on their way

back to the main house they recalled that even though they were retracing their steps from earlier the bridge that they crossed was now missing as well as many other landmarks that they had passed Um, the cottages they saw earlier were no longer there. And soon the eerie energy went away, although they later recalled both feeling nauseous and disoriented for the rest of the day. Oh, I wonder if that dread went away or not, you know? Yeah. I guess if you're feeling nauseous and disoriented, it probably not.

Probably so feels pretty shitty. So here's what I thought of all of this, the weirdest part, because this could not be us. Um, neither Charlotte nor Eleanor ever mentioned. any of their experience to each other. They didn't say a damn word to each other. They just both happen to have this happen. And that's what I wonder, because then I'm like, is it one of those things where you're like,

I don't know you well enough? You know what I mean? Like, because they're getting to know each other and they just work together and they're like, hey, we don't. That's a great point. I hadn't thought about that. Like, how would you even bring that up?

Like, that's a great point. Like, you don't want to get sent away, right? As like a woman back then, you don't want to sound totally nuts. I feel like you'd have to really trust the other person. I had not thought about that because in my mind, I was like, why on earth would you not look at each other and be like, that was fucking crazy.

Yeah. Yeah. Like, did you see what I saw? Interesting. Okay. Good point. Well, it wasn't until. I mean, again, couldn't be us, to be clear.

Yeah, couldn't be me. No, I'd be like, look, we just met and you're going to think I'm the wildest person in the world. However, we need to talk about this. I'll be like, let me go first. Okay. Don't worry. We're on the same thing.

So a week later, they had parted ways and they were writing a letter to each other. I think Charlotte was writing to Eleanor. He's like, so. Yeah, I think she was like, I think she was kind of flirting with the, like, dabbling with mentioning it. Just like, what a nice time we had, huh? Like, did you have any odd experiences? Ha ha, ha, ha.

Just kidding. LOL, JK, please don't institutionalize me. Yeah. So she, I think I'm a. assuming that multiple letters were exchanged back and forth, but I think this might have also just been in one letter. I don't totally... Maybe she was writing it as, you know, at the time when it took like 20 minutes to write a letter. Maybe by the end, she was like, fuck it. Is this place haunted to you? Yeah. Like, honestly, I'm not going to wait for three more rounds of letters

to get to this. Yeah. Let's just cut to the chase now. I don't have a month of dilly dally. Just tell me. And if... And then don't take the job if you think I'm crazy. Um, so she said, do you think the property was haunted and Eleanor wrote back immediately and said hell yeah and by immediately I mean probably 19 days but yeah I was gonna say post it yeah yeah how many business days I don't know but eventually

imagine a time where you say something that risque in a letter and you have to wait like multiple weeks like imagine the tossing and turning you would do every night wondering if you went too far with your writing and then when it like gets really far you're like oh shit by now she's definitely gotten it and I haven't heard back it's like oh

God, you got to be constantly, like, waiting for the other shoe to drop. And you don't have a copy of it. You can't read it back to your friends and be like, was this too much? Good point. You just have to be like, I think I said this, but I don't remember how I said it. What if it came across weird? And they're like, whoa. And you're like, well, no, not like that. Oh, God, is it bad? That's how I would go. I truly could not make it in a world where I had to rely on just writing somebody and then waiting. Waiting alone couldn't happen. I would have had to like walk there. When I would have like mailed it and then walk there. And then like it would have just been really stupid when our grandparents are like it's those damn

phones they were not lying because the way that my my brain is rotted from the inside out when it comes to instant gratification there's no way i could wait there's no fucking way the impatience is already very very limited in my in my personality so no it couldn't happen but anyway she waited she ended up giving a response both of them agreed the place was haunted so then they briefly discussed some of their experiences that they had that day but they didn't really go super in-depth, which now that you made that point, of course they didn't totally mention everything that happens. They just kind of were testing the waters on what they could say to each other. So different sources say a month later or three months later, they decided, hey, let's write down

our entire experiences in-depth separately from each other, and then we're going to compare notes. Okay. Oh, see, they're academics. I feel like this bonded them and actually got her the job to be the vice principal. I hope so. After this. There's nothing else. imagine having this back and forth for months and months just for uh child's go actually it's not working i think you know what we what's what's the like phrase like oh actually um we've we've gone with someone else or what is like the phrasing that they always say like trying to be nice but it just fucking slaps you in the face it's like we're going a different direction i don't know different direction that's what it is we're going in a different direction oh fuck you and yeah anyway we could derail very quickly

on that anyway yeah so a few things that because remember they wrote it all out they hadn't totally discussed with each other a few things about each other's accounts freaked them out that they were so overlapping name and in some ways they were overlapping but in different ways namely that they had different experiences of similar memories of who they encountered so oh their perceptions were different. Yeah. So one person would have like really weird feelings and areas where another one saw something. Whoa.

Okay. That's weird. An example was that Eleanor never saw a woman shaking a cloth or a cottage that she was in. She doesn't remember a cottage at all, let alone a woman shaking a cloth. But she does remember having a really weird feeling about the air in that specific area that Eleanor described. Weird. And the thing that really freaked them out is that. when Eleanor was like, yeah, and that woman who kept staring at us, or Charlotte or whoever,

when she was like, that woman who kept staring at us when she was sketching in the garden, the other one was like, who the fuck are you talking about? I never saw a woman. We were by ourselves. Ooh, okay, weird. But she, and so I will say, although she didn't see the woman, she had a weird psychic feeling in that exact same spot. She ended up, this is a quote from her saying, as we approached the terrace, I remember

drawing my skirt away with a feeling as though someone was near me and I had to make room and then wondering why I had done that since we were alone. Okay, but doesn't that just, ooh, I have chills. Doesn't it make you just think of all the times that you feel kind of weird like someone's right by you or like looking at you and you're like, huh, that's odd? I, the chills I have is crazy. Terrible chills. Yikes. And also, what a dream team. One of them can sense things and one of them can see things. Yes. Wow. It's like they were perfectly primed for this to happen. So this motivated the women to start digging into the actual history of the property, which they have that tour guide now.

Yeah, they're like, I guess I care now. All of a sudden, we should go back and do the tour again. Listen, I'm really interested. So they decided to dig into the history of the property to see what they could discover. Now, again, 1901, I am so impressed that they were able to find anything without the internet. Just throwing that out there. They're academics, okay? And that's where this goes, because thank God they know how to research.

This is what they were able to discover without the internet, which means if they could do this, you can do just about anything. Women in STEM. They found maps from 1774, 1783, and 1789 that showed the following. A now removed bridge that they had walked across. It was the bridge they walked across that they couldn't find when they looked back. Oh, gosh.

Okay. Remember they said, we were just walking here. Where the hell is the bridge? Mm-hmm. it existed in the 1780s. Okay, 1780s. So now they're in 1901. What is the difference in time for us?

120-something years. So if we were to see someone to be like there at time period. It's like 1800 going right? No, 1900. So it would be like right when they were there. Yeah. Creepy. Fine.

Okay. So if we see something for 19-01 that shouldn't be here. You're the old-fashioned ghost, huh? Must hurt. they also through these maps found the wooden cottage that Eleanor claimed she saw it was in the exact same spot that she claimed to see it the wooden kiosk that they stumbled upon and then couldn't find again and gardens that they swear they saw and walk through but in that in 1901 did not exist anymore but they found them on the map creepy they also found photos which I'm imagining as like oil portraits instead of like a Kodak situation um they found portraits of the property from decades before showing old farming buildings where one of them had seen a bunch of abandoned farming buildings and equipment including the old plow it was literally in pictures and she was like that was the fucking plow i saw they probably would have had cameras a couple decades earlier right like late 1800s because of that would have been so yeah so of the plow wow that's creepy because like how would you know that yeah because i i don't know what a plow from the 1780s looks like.

But so they actually looked further into that specific plow and they were able to figure out that it was Louis XVI's actual plow that he sold during the French Revolution. And since that plow was sold during the French Revolution, the land had not been plowed that way again. Wow. Okay. So there should be no reason for that to be anywhere. Yeah.

So in 1901, why would there be a plow at all if it hadn't been plowed since the 1700s? That's creepy. side note convinced that this could not be true because they were like this is too fucking weird the women did go back and visit the grounds again and retrace their steps and confirmed they could not find anything that they had originally walked across oh it's creepy um they also discovered the the farm staff back in the day wore greenish gray coats okay and they were like ah that doesn't really look totally like what i saw and then they ended up finding people that wore the exact same outfit they saw, and it was the outfits of Mary Antoinette's

personal guards. Oh, okay, I see. See, I find that very, like, validating that they were like, actually, no, these don't really look right, and then found ones that did look right. Like, they weren't like, yeah, totally, that's what I saw, you know. And apparently, I did not look, this could have been such an ADHD rabbit hole. You have to be so proud of me. I didn't look into this.

But apparently the green outfits of farm staff specifically in the 1780s, the color was, the green color was discontinued as part of the royal staff and is no longer a color used in France. So basically, the outfits that they saw, you can't even get an outfit like that now because they don't even make them. You wouldn't even work in that. Yeah. Okay. Wow. Wow. And then the ones that they did find ended up looking like Mary Ann Chinat's personal guards.

now remember there was a man who ran out of the chapel and told them that they were too close to the queen's private entrance and they needed to leave that chapel had been bolted shut for a century so no reason a man should have been able to run out of that thing yikes in fact uh the area they were in had been open to the public since the 1870s so for the last 30 years by the time they got there so there was no reason for someone to make them leave wait you said there it was open or was not oh it was open so they were they were allowed to be there oh i see okay so when this guy is like this is the private entrance for the queen it hadn't been a private entrance for 30 years oh that's creepy now assuming that the green outfits they saw were in fact marie antoinette's personal guards um then the person who told them that they needed to leave for the chapel because it was the private entrance might have been a guy named LaGrange, who was also in the 1780s,

the one in charge of Marie Antoinette's private door. So they're thinking they ran into like another one of her guards. Wow. In the portraits that they were looking through when they found the plow, they also discovered one of a man and a cloak and a wide-brimmed hat with a very rough complexion. And they believe he...

I don't like this guy. This was Compte de vaudeville. And he apparently was a traitor ended up going against Maria Antoinette something like that. Ah.

And they also ended up finding this is my favorite one. They found the personal diary of Marie Antoinette's seamstress without the internet. They just fucking found this. And they found her personal journal and in it

this seamstress described the outfits that she had made for Marie Antoinette and one of the ones that she had made was the exact outfit that they saw that woman in the garden wearing, which means that Charleston Elinor may have ran into fucking Mary Antoinette. Right, because she was known to paint on the property, I think. Yeah, and remember, this was her shishi.

This was her private area. Yeah, these are private entrance. Get away. Oh, my God. It would make sense that no one else was there except for them in this random woman. It was supposed to be her private space. And no wonder, she was staring at them, like, get the fuck out of my private area. This is my she-she.

But also probably not, like, screaming because it's like, who are you and what are you? And, like, why are you dressed at? Like, you probably look like totally out of place, out of sorts. Yeah. It must just be so trippy. So it would make sense. And also, like, Versailles should have had more tourists in the area that's allegedly open to the public. But it was just them.

Right. Fair point. This woman staring at them and obviously looking uncomfortable, they were there. And then a man coming out saying this is a private entrance, you have to leave. And no sound and no. Yeah. later in their research Charlotte and Eleanor also found a portrait of Marie Antoinette in the same outfit they saw the woman wearing in the garden

Oh my God, I wonder if it was like her favorite outfit And that's why she was a ghost in it First of all, love that I hadn't even thought about that being her ghost outfit But what I thought An interesting add on to that Is that this portrait that they found Of her wearing that outfit

Is considered to be one of the most realistic portraits of Marie Antoinette to have been made oh wow okay so it's no big deal of the things she could have been wearing that they see her and happens to be claimed to be one of the most realistic things that she would have worn yeah um keep in mind like i already said this but me and would not love this garden and she was known to sketch out there she was also known to be in that area at a particular time in history she was sitting out in the garden sketching when she found out that a mob an insurrection was approaching the castle which would then leads to her imprisonment and ultimate

when she was sitting out there that day that she was sitting out there and was told that it's a bad day for you is your last good day getting a sketch out in the garden that day was on August 10th 1792 and it's rumored that every August people still see Marie Antoinette in the garden and Charleston and Eleanor visited the palace on August 10th

the anniversary um 1901 so on the anniversary of her finding out that she was about to be arrested like her last good day on the property basically so the more that they looked into all this the more that the women believed they somehow were transported back to her last good day geez oh i got the goose cam again that is so creepy dude they had different opinions was charlotte thought more that they entered a time slip and witnessed the actual day in history. Right. Meanwhile, Eleanor claimed that the energy of the area kind of let them tap into

Marie Antoinette's memories of her last happy moments. Oh. Oh, interesting. Okay. I don't know which one. I would imagine it's more a time slip because the woman seemed to interact with them versus like you're just viewing through her eyes what happened. Agreed.

I feel like this, to me, it's a time slip because you're still, yeah, from your own perspective. experiencing everything it's just like different yeah that's what i think but i don't know that would be my gut so remember i said that they visited the grounds again to see what they would find or not find so what when they went back uh the property looked completely different and had allegedly been that way for decades so they should have they shouldn't have looked any different than the last time they were there but it looked right all of a sudden it looked like it was the 1900s versus the 1780 1790s yeah in 1902

So this is a year after they had their crazy experience. Eleanor made a visit back by herself and had another eerie experience out there. She felt the same depression, sorrow heaviness again and saw two workers in old-fashioned clothing who vanished when she turned back around to see them a second time. She also felt like there were several people around her when she couldn't see anyone nearby. And she heard old, faint band, like live music played. um was she the one who who saw marie antona or was she the one who just felt like people were she was the one who i think saw things so it's interesting that she only okay but she did see the two workers and they faded right okay okay um but she did feel like other people were around and

couldn't see them then she heard this music and she even asked the property like oh is there a band performing somewhere yeah um nobody was scheduled to perform that day and even if they were the place where bands were held to perform was so far away, you wouldn't have been able to hear it where she was standing. Okay, yeah, so not the answer. So Eleanor did make sure to write down a few bars of the music, and then she brought it back to Oxford University

and played it for music people. She would. And they were like, that's so funny. Where did you hear this from? Because this music is dated back to like the 1780s. Stop it. Isn't that fucking crazy? Stop!

Another time that she went back, This is, I think, I think the last time she went back and had a creepy experience. She felt another, for the third time, a similar heaviness and sorrow. She saw two women become translucent, which is what she saw with Marie Antoinette. And she also saw the buildings around them seeming to fade away, all except for two pillars of a building. And then when she looked into it, and then when she looked into it later, those pillars were the oldest structures on the properties. So she probably time slipped into a place where the pillars still existed,

but nothing else had been built yet. Ew! Isn't that wild? But so, I would never go back. I'd be like, I'm going to get lost and stuck in one of these slips. Also, like, imagine having that gift in you're an archaeologist. You can just be like, nope, I have to go back further because it still, it still exists. Nope. And like, you could just go back to whatever year and be like, oh, they're building it now. I can't imagine. How cool. How do you even do that? I don't. Once you harness your power she would be so crazy I'm like stop going there until you figure it out because otherwise you're just going to keep getting like what if you could suck back in yes that's my fear so um later in life the women visited again and they felt the oppressive sadness heaviness in the air and they

just left right away they're like I don't want to fucking see it so yeah good good but I also wonder like why if this is all true if at least they're feeling something really eerie do you think it's like they're primed to feel something eerie because they did the last few times or do you think they for some reason are like tapped into something where like they feel it every time because nobody else seems to be having these experiences yeah i feel like the the follow-up visits almost make me question it more because it's like wait like if it's one thing i feel like if it happens and then you go back and everything's back to normal and you're like i swear there was a bridge and you find the bridge but like to go back multiple times and keep slipping in time is like

I mean listen not that I know and I know lightning strikes twice sometimes but it's just a strange thing maybe one of them like maybe the one who kept coming back like does have some weird history with the place or time or ability and maybe like because the other one was with her they both got kind of sucked into this I don't know it's it's I agree I feel like one of the most difficult things about paranormal experiences is that they can't be replicated and so Exactly. If you're really able to replicate this, why don't you bring out researchers

and have them watch what happens to you in real time, you know? Right. Like a lot of experimenting could have been done if this really is something you can harness. But maybe she just didn't. If she went like 15 times and this only happened three, then maybe. But it sounds like every time she went, there was an experience.

So I'm like, that's interesting. That's question. Yeah, that sounds. fishy to me or at least like a little muddying the water you know i agree yeah yeah so after all that they experienced actually we're kind of about to talk about it after all that they experienced after all their personal research they turned all or they turned to others for help and figuring out what happened to them and the first thing they did was take all of their evidence all their maps all their portraits their personal diaries and they went to the spr the society of psychical research

Aha, our favorite. Who immediately, pretty much, said, despite your reputation in high academia and your ability to research, this doesn't stick. There's just, we don't, all we have to go off of basically is, like, this story you could have conjured up.

And there's nothing. And like you have pictures of the plow, but like whatever you could have found the pictures of a plow. And then said you saw a plow. Right, right, right. Yeah. So they said, unfortunately,

there's not a lot of credibility here. so there's nothing we can do. Lame. Pretty much right after this, they were like, they felt super dismissed. And like two powerful women, they were like, we'll just do it ourselves. So they decided that they were going to build their own case. They were going to find every inch of evidence they possibly could. And they wrote a book.

And the book was called An Adventure. And it came out in 1911. Wow. An Adventure. An adventure. Certainly. And the book included all the maps that they'd found, timelines of what had happened to them,

any evidence they had, they put it in there. Afraid that others would critique them, though, they decided to use fake names because they still had their careers to worry about. They didn't want to be, like, laughed out of their jobs. Yeah, and also, like, their livelihood to not be institutionalized or something. Yeah, like. Great, exactly. So they used pseudonyms.

They used the names Elizabeth Morrison and France. Francis Lamont. I know. I wish I knew what my name would be if I had to have a fake name. I know. I was like, what would my name be? It's hard to,

it's hard to say. I feel like I would be Eleanor somebody. Like I would take her name. I feel like my name would be like Felix or something crazy. I'd be like Eleanor Rigby. Stop it. My name would have to have an X or a Z or some like unusual. You would.

Just for the fun of it. The only reason I like my last name is because there's a Z in it. Oh, that's true. What about Axel? I like Axel. I do, um, my stepdad, he told me that I have a stepbrother named Brendan. And apparently I was like, oh, if you weren't going to name him, Brendan, where were you going to name him? And my stepdad had the fucking audacity to say Quillarin. No.

And I was like, what? I wish like, Quill, Quill, or quillorin. Quillarin. Quillarin, I think. Um, actually, Eva would know this because, and he, he, he, he, he was. did not know Eva's relationship to this at all, but my stepdad was like, oh, yeah, from the Cat Who series, which, like, Eva loves the Cat Who series. What's the Cat Who series? Oh, she did a whole podcast about the Cat Who series. Right. The, like, mystery book. The cozy

mystery. Oh, okay. Wait. Tom read that book? Apparently he loves the series as much as Eva and then almost named his son after them. Brain is like breaking, trying to process this. Fun fact, everybody, when Eva first, I think interviewed with us, or one of her first days working for us, she brought us both books from the Cat Who series that she thought both of us would like... I don't remember mine. Oh, mine was the Cat Who Talks a Ghost, I think. Oh, cute. I don't remember mine. I'm sure, too, somewhere, since I don't get rid of anything.

I'll find it. I'll find it eventually. If you find a Cat Who book is from Eva when she first started working with us. Good to know, actually. Yeah. But no, the only other person I've ever heard talk about the Cat Who's... series was Eva. And then Tom was like, oh, yeah, we almost named Brendan after the Cat Who series. I was like, what? That's a wild coincidence. Yeah, that's very strange. I could see Quillerin

being a name I go with if I'm going for like a, like a sneaky name. Yeah, Quillarin is pretty, I do like Felix too. I feel like that kind of is like playful and like has the X, X factor, if you will. It's good. It's an, I would go with a name that like feels like a character on Pink Panther or something. Totally. Totally. Totally. Quillarin Felix, the third. It's exactly right. what word you kept saying. Me either. Anyway, those are their pseudonyms that they used in their book, Elizabeth Morrison and Francis Lamont, and their true identities were only revealed in later editions, I think

like five different editions of this book came out. Oh, wow. So only the later ones said their actual names get used in the book. And this was also in like the 1930s after at least one of them had died. So their reputations that didn't totally matter anymore, the way that it didn't originally. the book was a massive hit it became a movie in in the 1980s i actually really i wanted to watch it it looks like it was like like a hallmark made for tv movie oh my god looks very hokey cheesy oh um the movie is called miss morrison's ghosts okay um and it looks

not good so i can't wait to watch it it's like a campy situation feels like a fun like sleepover drinking game movie if anyone needs to something kind of cheesy to watch go watch miss morrison's ghost it's on youtube and from the book came the movie from the movie came a BBC radio play um and then again the books are like a podcast so like a poppy gas and the book was republished multiple times um but with different names so another version of the same book is the ghosts of trianon a complete the complete an adventure um oh and then despite the craze of the book, many skeptics were quick to tear the story apart. A lot of the common the common theories were that they stumbled upon a reenactment or a movie set, although none were

scheduled. No filming was scheduled and that wouldn't explain the property-wide structural changes like house is missing or like the woods being differently shaped than they should be. It doesn't make sense, no. Another theory is that they stumbled upon a private party, which at the time there actually was a famous French artist who lived nearby and he did host theme parties at Versailles. So they were like, Kim Kardashian and his name, his name was Kanye, his name was Kanye. So they were like, maybe he was throwing a party and people were in costume and you stumbled upon that.

But they were like, there was no party. We were on a tour. Like, it's a, that's not sure. Yeah. I feel like we're missing a big part of like the point here, which is that. Yeah. Anyway. Another theory is that their memories influenced each other's recollection, which I could see

that happening. yeah i guess um basically that they both taught or an example is that they both talked about a woman in the garden even though only one actually saw her and then the other one just kind of went with it a lot of the individual stories don't overlap it's as if they each had half of the story and then kind of clumped them together and just believed each other basically their stories don't line up um okay so a lot of people are like oh you just are letting each other inform the other's memory of what happened i mean i think you're i think you made a good point like they're perceiving it differently whatever whatever another theory is

that they were under a trance or some sort of shared hallucination due to the heat that day but it was not that hot but okay um okay another is that they were victims of a prank or that they are pranking us another theory is that they were just simply misinterpreting normal events because they got lost and didn't know where they were um and so they were and on top of that that they were just finding pretty much pictures and evidence through maps and everything that they were probably ignoring other facts while just looking for facts that justified their confirmation bias like trying to like bolster their okay i mean like i guess if like whatever i think that's just silly but whatever i agree but i just takes so much out of it like it just takes so much like you have to

It just doesn't explain like 80% of the story, you know? Well, the SPR actually had made a good, I think it was the SPR. They made a good point saying that they think that most of this is just both of them influencing each other's memory of things. Because remember, there was never an immediate written account about this. They only both talked about it once like maybe three months had passed. Yeah, that's fair. That's fair.

And on top of it, the fact that they wrote five editions of it. this book and like in each book there was more or less added or removed of their experiences makes it kind of shady because people are like yeah well why did you not mention that in this book or why did you add this thing that's like really spooky but you didn't put it in the first book yeah that's a little bit fishy and by the time all the additions had come out it was like years and years and years later so like are you only remembering something now where are you bringing this up to like give this one flare um also in their book this is not a good book um They wrote a whole fake chapter in the perspective of Marie Antoinette seeing them a time slip.

My goodness. Okay. That's a little creative liberty here. Yeah. And which, I mean, we both know if we went through a time slip and we saw someone who seemed to look right at us. We would talk about it forever. Like, what do you think they experienced? Yeah.

And I feel like, you know, we, I can understand the desire to like get creative with it. But I feel like to put it in your book as that you're trying, that you're saying is like factually. what happened is a little bit like okay that's confusing it's like a whole chapter of this is obviously actually admittedly fiction so like where does that put the rest of this you know it's a little weird it's like so how are we gonna yeah yeah i agree i totally agree which like as someone who loves a time slip if i read that chapter i would probably be like that's my favorite chapter of the whole book i'm so glad you added it but i would be like but now i can't trust any of this um yes so it just brings doubt on to the rest of the book. I agree.

And then the last theory, which is the least likely, I think. It's certainly the most ridiculous, but it's also the most grabby of the theories. Is a homosexual folioidia. Oh, a homosexual, you say.

A.k.a. a shared delusion because they were, quote, so distracted by their relationship that they misinterpreted ordinary people and events around them. Like, they were so Google Gaga and love that they don't even really totally remember the day and they just kind of patchworked it together and it ended up sounding spookier than it was this was implied that they were in a relationship by many sources

but it seems based on what i have found it looks like most of that rumor came from one former student who did not like them and was trying to make them look really bad um right and tried to just say well they were gay as a way to like discredit them and they were both single women men without children and they were kind of you know well one was middle age one was older but maybe they just had like an age gap relationship so there's spinsters already and they were traveling to france together like you could easily romanticize that um yeah but all of the i mean it is romantic whether they like it or not you know they held each other when they saw a kiosk i don't know a kiosk no but we don't actually know if they were queer i mean as a queer i certainly hope

they were just for the fun of it i mean who isn't at this point but whatever but uh there's really no evidence outside of like what this one person with with a hatred for them stating it so and and that because it's again the punchiest of the theories people often say like oh this is like a shared delusion between lesbians which is crazy that's a wild thing to say like that's like saying oh anyone on a first date who's in love and having an affair or like a love affair like they're just they can't i know understand the world around it's just so bizarre like what okay whatever i have been google gaga enough in an early part of a queer relationship where like i could have walked into a time slip and i wouldn't have even fucking noticed like that so if anything

it goes against the theory um fair so it's it's said that outside of this experience regardless of whatever the theories are outside of this experience both women had had separate paranormal encounters throughout their lives both before and after this interesting the situation so i guess that helps them look more legit that like this wasn't a fluke like we've already had weird shit happen in our lives like this one was just when we were together in the same room um although personally i don't know about eleanor's encounters like her paranormal encounters it sounds like she was dealing with some mental health situations um like there were stories of like oh she saw a ghost dancing in the hall and then she saw this and then she saw this and same for Charlotte

that charl was also seeing things or hearing things but the the stories i saw about eleanor's for some reason cross into like feeling a little absurd a little maybe far-fetched just like maybe like she let's just put this way she thought that there were spies hiding in the school trying to get her oh okay so like paranoia basically paranoia she was having visions um that led to erratic behavior so like hallucinations that kind of thing like it didn't feel paranormal it felt more like a psychological situation okay um meanwhile charlotte stories felt more spooky paranormal out of her control or out of her realm um right it one just felt spiritually creepy and one of them felt psychologically like maybe she needed some guidance um but then again like

where is the line on that we could talk about that forever yeah and who knows that was like back then everybody was so into like the spiritual stuff there's like all the knocking and people believed stuff like that so like maybe it was just like oh she's confabulating it to make it sound like more dramatic for people who you know i don't know i don't know and also unfortunately like as much as i want to believe in like a time slip and hauntings and stuff like that her maybe having um some psychological stuff to work through does hurt the validity of this whole incident because she was the one who remember was seeing things and Charlotte was just feeling things which you and I could go to a history place and feel like oh this one feels a little spooky like oh this 200 year old thing does feel haunted to me ha ha ha and then not see anything. Especially if you're alone in the woods yeah like in a kind of old historic place yeah yeah and Eleanor seems to have only seen things which maybe she really was but maybe she wasn't you know what I mean right okay um so um um um um so um um um Eleanor was, I think this was Eleanor. I hope I didn't mix them up. I think Eleanor was the one who was originally principal of the school. Whoever was the first principal of the school, she ended up dying.

Actually, drama, she died mid-scandal at the school right before she was going to be told to quit. And then she literally died. What happened? She seemed to have like real beef with another team. and I think she fired the teacher for like not really legitimate reasons and then the rest of the staff and like defiance all threatened to also leave oh shoot it became a whole mess so she ended up literally dying instead of quitting um and then Charlotte or Eleanor whoever was originally the vice principal she ended up taking over um okay so when people say like oh well you know whatever the theories of what happened whichever really happened at least they were credible because of their reputations at school, it sounds like a lot of people kind of hated them. So I don't really know if they're maybe they were. Yeah, it sounds like

they're causing problems. Maybe they were smart academics, but like just not liked. Like socially as popular. Yeah. Um, fun fact, which only adds to the gay factor. They are now buried near each other in the same cemetery. Um, and their research and evidence, by the way, after this whole incident is still at Oxford University in one of their libraries. No way. So okay, that counts for something. And those who believe that the incident was real say it was most likely either a time slip, a haunting, or retrocognition, which is being transported into someone's memories. Super cool. Okay. Well, that's what one of them thought, right? Mm-hmm. And to this day, the property is still allegedly haunted, which I'm sure I could do a whole episode on Versailles.

Yeah. This area specifically is that people say that they get weird chills. They see apparitions in old-fashioned clothing. There's weird shifts in... energy, that there's time loss, and then all of a sudden you pop up in a new area with no recollection. And like mentioned earlier, every August people claim to see Marie Antoinette out there on the anniversary that she was in prison. I don't know how much of that or those haunting rumors are informed by this incident. Right.

I don't know chicken or the egg situation, but anyway, that is the Moberly Jordan incident, aka the Versailles time slip. Dang, dude, that was... Sorry, though, so long. no it's just bonkers like it would be so cool to experience something like that and also so mind-fucking like you would be so that like for the rest of my life i would question my own sanity for the rest of your life you would question reality and everything oh my god like you'd have the best icebreaker story but you'd be like i don't even know if i should say it you know i was going to

say but you probably wouldn't feel comfortable telling anyone at the same time you'd have to really get to know somebody or like on a like at one of those parties where like you're sitting in a corner together super fucked up and like you just get weirdly deep for no reason and you never see each other again. You're just both like yep in the same kind of headspace just dropping truth bombs. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Wow. Anyway, I saw time slip. I was very excited to tell you that one. I love a time slip as you know. That was lovely. I'm good job. Thank you. Now that I have been home for a while while Christine handles the road, I have been going to all my doctors, giving them a

wave and fondly reminiscing on the fact that I found them through ZocDon. Yeah, we've loved Zoc Doc for years. It's just one of those things that I have found indispensable. I don't think I would be really quite as healthy or alive without it. Not to be dramatic, but they've helped me connect with dermatologists, with GI doctors, with psychiatry. I mean, really everything across the board. Zock is a free app and website where you can search and compare high quality in network doctors

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within just 24 to 72 hours, as in, like, we got anxiety diagnoses within 48 hours for both of us, I think. Stop putting off those doctor appointments and go to Zock.com slash drink to find and instantly book a top-rated doctor today. That's Z-O-C-D-O-C dot com slash drink. Zock.com slash drink. Sometimes life can get a little crazy. I don't think I've experienced a moment of life not being crazy lately.

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I, in the middle of the night, decided to tear all the wallpaper off the walls. No, you are like me. Don't ever fucking pretend like you're not exactly like me ever again. Show me. Where is it? It's facing that way. You would be able to sit. Okay, send me pictures later.

And the plan was like, oh, I'm going to surprise Alice. son and now I'm like oh fuck now I gave myself like a whole task it'll what do you mean it'll surprise it when she comes home and looks like wallpaper on the walls it's a great surprise well I was like man like the house still like we haven't touched it at all and then it wasn't really an excuse it was legitimate the whole time I've been saying like like I want the whole I don't want the walls to be white like I want them to be painted and have these hanging on the walls and have all this decoration I was like I haven't done anything and I've been like in this house alone for like five months. I should like do something. And I saw there's this wallpaper in the hallway that

just fucking hated. And I was like, I'm just taking it down. I mean, it sounded like it had to go. I'm on your side with this. Sorry. Thank you. Well, um, Alison, the, the good part is that Allison and I had already decided it would be changed. So it's not like I'm tearing something down that she liked. Like it was something that she felt yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was understood that it's going to change. So if she doesn't like what I do with it, we can just change it again. But, um, do you know what you're going to do with it? No, I just tore it down. I was like, I'll figure it out later. And now I'm like, oh, fuck, I got to figure something out.

You will figure it out. My, I mean, my mom still has their kitchen half torn the walls, just like half torn plaster coming down. And they just left it like that. And it's been 10 years. So, and it was like a drunken thing one night where they were like, let's, let's say their floors. The floor's finally got done.

But, yeah, so I, I have faith that you'll do it sooner than my mother ever will, which is probably never. Thank you. It'll certainly be a 3 AM decision. I don't think an idea is coming. when I'm, like, really awake and solid. It's got to just, you've got to just kind of let it come to you, right? You can't force it.

It's cooking. It's cooking. But anyway, I remember when I was tearing the wallpaper, I was like, this is a good reason to drink. And then I just never mentioned it. It's a good reason, yeah, that you did to yourself, which is my favorite kind of reason. You know, if it hadn't been the middle of the night, I might have had some reason to me and I wouldn't have done it. But sometimes the best things happen when you just kind of have to give yourself forgiveness. The best and the worst things happen when you really want to kind of kick yourself in the head.

that's so nice anyway uh wow sorry alson hope you like it what if what if she hears this before she gets home and it's like what did you do um that's a great oh fuck well whatever whatever i mean it's still a while we're pretty far in advance i feel when it comes out when i sometime in september i don't know a couple weeks

hopefully she's not listening alison if you're listening pretend you don't know what's going on in acts surprise and you get home and be happy also. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and also stop complaining. What's your problem? I'm just, also, isn't it beautiful in your hallway right now? Yeah, just a lot of oozanaz take you a long way else, and I'll tell you. That's about all we need. Oh, boy. Okay, well, I have a story for you. This is one that I've wanted to cover since the, oh my God, like first year of our podcast, maybe second year. Okay. It may be not that old, but it's a story that Dateline did a podcast series on called The Thing about Pam. And I remember listening to it so vividly that I remember

being at Ross for Less and wandering through the aisles and just hearing Keith Morrison and being so, like, transfixed by this story. I binge the entire thing in like a day, maybe two days. I don't know. But I remember that so vividly. And then years later, it like turned into a series and then like a mini series on TV, this whole thing. But all that to say, I've been wanting to cover this for so long. And finally, here we are. This is the case of Betsy Faria. And I'm guessing you don't know about this. Is, you said it's a documentary title? Because I feel like that title sounds familiar, but I don't know what it is. Also, it was a Dateline, multi-episode series, and then it became a mini-series, a like a dramatized mini-series with Renee Zellwigger. Nope, don't know about it. I do know, though,

that I have a strong opinion already about something you've done. Something I've done. Do you really call it Ross for less? That was kind of a joke. Okay, thank God. It's Ross. But I was like, I was out of Ross for less. It just sounds funny.

I mean, it was. I was like, oh, boy. I was like, that's new. It's like if I was saying like the Kroger Marketplace, you know, I'm just fucking around. Like what I call Michael's Michels. Like I understand. It's just like a little fun twist on the norm. After the goddamn jig and gig, I never know what's real anymore.

It's worth asking because, People probably were going to message me about it. So thank you for clarifying that. Or like the beef thing. Now I'm lost. I'll never know if it's beef or out beef. I'll never know. It's both.

Well, okay. Anyway, I felt like it was going to sit with me if I didn't ask. I appreciate it. Okay. And this is one of the craziest stories of my life, of your life, of any life. It is just so bad shit. I'm excited. I cannot believe it's taken me this long to get here.

But here we go. So we're back in the late. 1990s, Betsy Faria. She lived in Troy, Missouri, nearby her mother and her two daughters from a former marriage. She worked a day job in insurance, but was a DJ, a part-time DJ on the side. Hey, girl. I know. And she was a very, like, fun, bubbly, lively person. The DJing was sort of like her passion project, you know? Kind of like Zach Baggins. No, his is just like a side hustle. Weird piano banging. Yeah, his is more just like kind of a one-man show about himself. So I wouldn't say that's necessarily DJing. But she was a disc jockey in the

realest sense, I guess. And she, like, loved to get people, you know, dancing. She was just a very fun person. And she met her husband Russ Ferrea around this time. And he loved this about her. He loved how outgoing they were. And they got married in 2000. And Russ ended up becoming the father to Mariah and Leah, who's, uh, who had come from a previous marriage. And they considered, uh, Russ their father. So Maria, excuse me, Mariah was only three when her mom met Russ, so she didn't know a time before he was her dad, basically. Like, that's how, that's kind of how the family unit was built. So at the start of the, I hate to do this to you, I just heard Rolling Thunder come through. I'm so sorry. You evil, evil woman. I'm telling you, I didn't do it on purpose,

maybe subconsciously, but not intentional, but yeah, it is coming in a lot. So jealous of you. Man, I can, you know what I'll do. I have a, there's one singular, for some fucking reason, I mean, I'm not complaining, but one sunroof or what is that called, skylight? Skylight. It's a wild word. The sunroof is just a skylight in a car. That's right.

Okay, so the skylight up in the ceiling, it's a good idea in theory because it's like, I live in like kind of a townhouse, so it's like tight up with other houses. So it's like, oh, it's a way to get light in when there are no windows on the wall. But also when it rains, it's so fucking loud because it's just a giant paint of glass. and I don't think anyone thought it through. No, no, they did. They did. For the ASMR, for the vibes.

It actually is like really nice. I'm not going to lie. I'm not complaining. Especially like the optics of it all like when it's dark and then like even the roof is like kind of stormy gloomy. Yeah. It actually really. The problem is that one of the cats peed right under there somewhere and I cannot for the life of me find it because I keep swiffering the same hardwood floors. And I'm like it's somewhere in either.

So I can sort of faintly smell cat piss, which doesn't really help. if I put the laptop and just like open the screen you won't there's no smell of vision here you can just watch everyone can just stream the um wow it's really it's really getting going up there i'm so jealous i'm so jealous sorry i swear i was gonna say don't worry it's 90 degrees here and all sunny and now well okay i'm telling you it's the one the one thing that might get me to ever move back to the east coast is rain i mean i get it it really does affect my mood greatly like i get just homer instantly. It's like the cortisol just drops, you know. Okay. Anyway, I'm so sorry. Mariah was only three, and so she had always known Russ as her dad. And at the start of the marriage, Russ and Betsy were a good team. Betsy was very encouraging and, you know, encouraged him to go back to school for computer science and get a good degree. So he ended up getting a pretty good job, and they were able to move into a new house together with their two daughters. But as time went on, Russ and Betsy had a few issues in their marriage.

They started arguing more and questioning whether it was worth sticking with each other long term. And it almost seemed like divorce was inevitable, but they kind of in one last ditch effort decided to go to a pastor. I mean, you know, not my, I guess last dish effort, maybe. Certainly a last ditch effort, yeah. Certainly last, not first. But yeah, they went to a church, a new church together, and they received counseling from a pastor.

and I guess this really did the trick. They really, like, bonded. They now had, like, a group of new friends, and they just started to work things out. Betsy actually told her friend Rita that she was falling in love with Russ all over again. Oh, okay. Which I find, like, really charming, you know?

Hey, God. Hey, God. Sexy. I guess you're doing something, a work within them, if you will. It's some Cupid, Cupid nonsense. So life was good, but then in early 2010, they faced a new challenge when Betsy was diagnosed with breast cancer. It came seemingly out of the blue.

She was given this aggressive treatment regimen, which was obviously very physically and emotionally exhausting for her and for her family. But Betsy and Russ had a big support system, and so there were a lot of people who loved them and stepped up with the girls and stepped up with food and driving her to appointments and things like that. And the chemo that she received was near her mom's house. So she was often going to go to the hospital and then to her moms. And that way, you know, she wouldn't be around the kids who are going to school and maybe have germs and that kind of thing

and just be able to be in her mom's close by and rest before and after her chemo appointments. So sometimes friends and family would drive her to and from appointments. One of these friends was Pam Hup. She was Betsy's coworker and she really stepped up for Betsy at this time. She was driving her to appointments regularly. she was coming by and spending time with her whenever she could and bringing blankets and bringing, you know, supplies. People in Betsy's life described Pam as an extremely kind person.

They said, Betsy is so lucky to have such a doting friend who's always checking up. I mean, I think we can all see that this is becoming red flags. The podcast is called the thing about the thing about Pam, you know, it's kind of hard to hide. Had you not told me the title so far I'd be like on board with Pam, but now I'm like, hmm, love bomby, Pam. Got it. I got to say, the love bombing is really intense. And then, yeah, we'll get into it. She's got some problems. So, and like Renee Zelliger, uh, portrays her. I believe there were some issues, some, uh, there was some discourse around that series because I believe Renee Zellwiger wore like a, for lack of a better term, fat suit is what everyone kept calling

it, like, to look more, you know, to be bigger, I don't know, stalkier, yeah, to look more like Pam. And I feel like people, if I remember correctly, that was kind of not cool, right? Like, people were not happy about that. The controversy being you could just hire a bigger person. Right, exactly. Like, it just feels unnecessary and also, like, just kind of, it's just icky, yeah. And so, anyway, we'll get into that because I do have other commentary on that as well.

But basically what I was going to say is in that series, which is very riveting. Like, I mean, Dateline puts on a good show, whether it's like, you know, good for the world or not. I don't, not entirely sure. But Keith Morrison knows how to get my, get that itch in my brain scratched, I guess. And they, from the jump, you're like, oh, Pam is trouble. Like from the moment the show starts, you're like, basically no. They're not even trying to give you. like a warm into it and then plot twist it's just something's not even a little bit okay like

immediately they're like there's a thing here's the thing about pam and then pam's just like fucking on the scene right like it just is like okay she's trouble clearly um so i want to just get that out of the way up front um but so everyone's like wow she's just so caring and doting and she's always like wondering about you i mean i hadn't even thought of it as love bombing but like yes that is the exact situation um betsy's cancer briefly went to remission but then she received the devastating news that it had metastasized and spread to other parts of her body. And her doctor estimated that she would only live for another three to five years, which, I mean, I just, it's something unimaginable to me. In autumn 2011, Russ and Betsy went on a cruise to celebrate Betsy's life.

I mean, can you imagine, like, knowing you're nearing the end and being like, let's go on a cruise to celebrate? I mean, it just sounds so brim. It's just hard. It's grim, yeah, in just the saddest way. So they went on a cruise because Betsy's lifelong dream was swimming with dolphins. And so they went on this cruise to celebrate her life. She got to swim with dolphins, which was good because only a couple months later in December, she was coming home from a chemotherapy appointment. This was a little bit after Christmas, December 27th of 2011. And she spent the day at her mom's house before and after the appointment. And meanwhile, Russ spent the day working from home and then headed to a friend's house for their weekly game night where they were playing Dungeons and Dragons. Love it. Yeah. So Betsy had arranged a ride home with one of her mom's friends. So Russ was like, great.

He and his friends are going to go have a beer, smoke pot, play Dungeons of Dragons, like live their best lives. And he'll see his wife later. He doesn't need to like go pick her up or anything like that. So he's just like has a night with the boys. The boys? The boys? The boys. The wizards, the orcs, the whatever's.

So, Russ enjoyed a worry-free evening, but at roughly 9.40 p.m. that night, a 911 call came in from Russ and Betsy's home. It was Russ. He was screaming hysterically. And he told the 911 operator that he had just found his wife on the floor and that she had killed herself. So if you hear the 911 call, it's. disturbing. They always are, but I will spare you if you don't want to hear it. Basically, it's just Russ screaming. He's sobbing. The operator is trying to get him to take deep breaths. They ask him if Betsy's still breathing. He says she's dead. The police arrive quickly. Russ leads them to the living room where Betsy is on the floor, covered in blood. When they took a closer look, it appeared that she had cut her wrists and died of blood loss. And so now they're thinking,

like, okay, this could be a suicide. And then they noticed the knife sticking out of her neck. And... Okay. Yeah. They sent Russ out of the house and said, this is a... We're pretty sure this is a homicide. So Russ went to the sheriff's department

for questioning, of course. Sure. Yeah. Check the husband. As it is. Yeah. Wrapped in a blanket, he was basically shaking and sobbing, uncontrollably. He was, like, I'm sure it's the adrenaline, too, you know, when you shake after, like, something like, I mean, something like this, obviously, I don't know, but like a shock to your system.

He did his best to answer the officer's questions, and then when they would leave, he would just sob. And when the police asked for us if he thought Betsy was capable of harming herself, he did say he didn't think so, but she had talked about suicidal ideation in the past. And so he was like, it's not unheard of, right? And, you know, the cancer was only exacerbating her mental health concerns. And so he said it's not impossible, right? I mean, especially after seeing what he just saw.

And so when gathering evidence, police are looking at this with a grain of assault. They're thinking like, okay, he's somehow convinced this is a suicide, but now we have this knife at her neck. Then they find blood on the light switch in Russ and Betsy's bedroom. And inside the bedroom closet, they find a pair of slippers covered in blood. And these are Russ's slippers. So they become certain that Betsy had not died by suicide, but they, that she had been attacked and killed um i mean it feels like i mean i and olivia benson but i feel

like a knife just hanging out of the neck when that could have easily been pulled away or like it doesn't seem like whoever did this whoever did this um wasn't trying to hide it like it feels kind of like messy and impulsive yes i agree it doesn't feel like like this could have been quote, done smoother or better if you wanted to get away with it, you know? I fully agree. And I'm going to give you more details in just a second that I feel like we'll add to that. We'll corroborate that because they're looking at this now as more of an attack. And when they get the autopsy report the following day from the medical examiner,

the medical examiner confirms their suspicions and says, of course, these cuts to her wrists are obvious. But under her clothes, I guess, or not even under, but through under the clothes, were all these stab wounds. So she had actually been brutally attacked. She had been stabbed more than 50 times. And then whoever did this just stuck the knife in her neck and left. I mean, it's disturbing.

Like, it's, talk about grim. Like, it's just really disturbing. So, ooh, God, it's horrible. A lot of the wounds were inflicted post-mortem, which was also interesting, like a strange kind of. Yes, yeah, very personal for sure. And so you can see why they're immediately thinking Russ, you know, like it does make sense. And like, of course, you look at the husband.

Always look at the husband. Okay. So basically they determined, yeah, she had been brutally attacked. Her murderer had continued to attack her after she stopped breathing. That's how much utter rage was behind this attack. And so detectives began questioning people who knew the couple. And at first everyone's saying, Russ and Betsy were deeply in love. Russ told the detectives they had gone through a rough patch in their marriage and had been

briefly separated. And I will get into that a little bit later. But he said they'd worked through it. That was that whole thing with going to the new church together. And their relationship was strong and loving. And he was just, that's all he had to say. He didn't have anything more to say than I didn't do it. And I love my wife. But detectives were not so sure. So they decided to speak to the last person to have seen Betsy alive. And that happened to be a woman named Pam. P-A-M. Yep. P-A-M.

P-A-M. Whatever. You're good. It's three letters. Thank you. They asked Pam if she was close to Betsy. And interestingly, Pam, Pam's response was, she has more than one best friend.

Okay. That's a weird thing to say. And it was true that Betsy was like a well-loved person. She had multiple friends. and a lot of family, but she and Pam had been co-workers for roughly a decade and had spent almost every day together, right, like since she got sick. And so it's weird that she wouldn't have just said, yeah, we're very close. Like, this is heartbreaking for me, you know, or anything. But she said, nope, she has other friends too. And they're like, okay. And so they're talking to her

and she says, although most people think Betsy and Russ are happy, I know the real truth. Because Betsy tells me all about it. And they actually fight all the time. And she's actually really scared of her husband and of course you know speaking of confirmation bias now they're thinking ding ding ding perfect domestic violence like this is an abusive marriage and this guy clearly just had a vendetta had some some crime of passion and that's what happened so she told they said you know speak on that please and she said well Russ often insults Betsy he brags to her about how much money he would get from her life insurance if she died what um yeah Pam said Russ was extremely disrespectful to her he would smoke in the house even though she was sick

like with cancer and they're just like horrified no he didn't he didn't he didn't he literally didn't don't don't make me defend a man Pam please I know it's that's it's like infuriating it's like seriously I don't want to be here or please don't do this to me god damn it's so infuriating um so Pam told the detectives that Betsy was so terrified of Russ that she was secretly planning to divorce him. And so now they're building this motive, right? She said, Betsy once told her that she woke up to Russ pressing a pillow against her face and saying,

this is what it feels like to die. What evil. But like, what a loon to make that up and be like, oh, and the way she presented it was also so bonkers. She said, oh, did you find the email she was going to write me about the time? And they said, what do you mean the email? And she said, she was telling me something about how she was busy writing me draft of an email.

and she never sent it. Spoiler alert, they later find it on a document on the computer, like a word document. That's idiot. Pam had written and uploaded. So, okay.

So this alone, I don't really know what I'm, what point I'm trying to make here. I just need to kind of word blurt it is that I feel like she has to know by saying all this stuff. Eventually it's going to come out that she's saying this

and people who know it's not true, are now going to know she's the prime suspect. Like, she's only taking her own hole. She's walking a very thin line, right? Because it's like, she's on this, she's now like giving the police what they want. But then you're right. Like the second anybody else in the circle hears they're going to be like, wait, wait, wait, wait. You're obviously the person who did this.

Yeah. Like, it feels. I'm so glad you said that because that is basically this whole story is everybody being like, the thing about Pam, like they're literally trying to figure out what the fuck is going on with Pam. The thing about Pam is that she has told you everything that you need to. arrest her go do it yeah yes like it's it's that's so insane because you with again i mean she's already proven herself to be sloppy at this if she's just like literally leaving the weapon at the crime scene but to like then just start saying things that are obviously not going to be backed by

anybody like should you keep a low profile you're just you're really making things so much worse so quick here's the here's the wildest part well first of all great point and i think this is one of those scenarios where it's a person who cannot keep a low profile because they're so self-involved and you know like I think she just like literally couldn't keep herself out of the spotlight do you know what I mean like she wanted to be questioned she wanted to be on the stand like she just loved the spotlight like a narcissist well yeah raging narcissist and I mean it becomes very very very apparent um like it's like if this weren't such a sick sad story it would be laughable at how obvious this is yes exactly it's just absurd like she had her neighbor basically spy in the because

she wasn't allowed to sit in the trial because she was a witness and she had a neighbor go sit in there and text her the whole time like what was going i mean she's just so like out of her self-obsessed self-obsessed wow um and just a sick sick person um so she's like yeah i know the real truth you know it's actually that uh that they're in this terrible marriage and she's so scared of her husband he's so violent and oh sorry we're going to say something yeah but i keep interrupting you so i'm just trying to shut up well i couldn't tell if you were hitting a fly like swatting a fly or raising your hand i'm just saluting you um no oh that's allowed no does she does she care that she's like is part of the thing that like she wants people to know she did it and see how long she can get away

with it like is there a point to her being she's she's just sloppy well everyone's just eating this up frankly okay got it okay i'm just gonna you keep going sorry no i mean it's a it's it's it's a great question because it's like what is happening like how is this happening but she's one of the people that like like i understand why like coroners would remove their brain to study it you know like like what what are we doing here what's it's like what happened what went wrong here yeah it's moments like this where i understand why they like do things like this for science after of the fact of people. I'm like, oh, I would also like to know what's too big or too small.

Even the Ed Kemper, like, you know, interviewing in prison, even though it's like kind of ethically and kind of gross and all that, but it's like, but you learn so much about how his brain works. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, if you watch Mind Hunter, you'll know what I mean. But, okay, so they are hearing all this from Pam. And Russ denies it completely. He said even when he and Betsy had struggled in their marriage,

neither of them had ever been violent with one another. That was never an issue. He said Betsy had no reason to be afraid of him. She never had been. He honestly didn't know where this was coming from. Sure. Like I don't think they definitely didn't say like, oh, Pam told us. You know, they were saying like, and I think that's part of it too is like the police are trying to build their case.

So they're not going around telling everybody like, oh, Pam's in here telling this and that. Like we're just hearing that you're a horrible husband. Exactly. And outside of the police station, she can be like, I don't know, I just, you know, I just told him the truth and we'll see what happened. You know, and she can kind of play that subtle game, you know, until she's called to the witness stand, so to speak, later on. So he says, Betsy has no reason to be afraid of him. He eventually agrees to a polygraph test, but he's been, I think, interrogated for like, I think it was 16 hours or just like a really intense long of time, a period of time after having just discovered. what we now know was like the shock of his life I mean in that moment like there's I would honestly

probably end up in jail because I would they would it would break me like I was I'm already know how you could even answer questions at that state yeah you're gonna say something that sounds suspicious when you're just when your brain's fried and he didn't ask for a lawyer because he literally didn't think he needed one and like that became a problem because then his attorney was like you've been talking all like for two days and you haven't asked for an attorney he's like I don't need one you know because like I didn't do anything you would think the crying and hysterics and having a bunch of people at the dungeons and dragons game to vouch that you were there like you're like I'm golden I don't need to say anything like I'm already I have an alibi and I'm clearly

fucking freaked out but guess what they turn all that against him so don't worry oh my fucking god it's like really bananas um how everything gets twisted so he failed the polygraph test at least that is what they told him that he failed the polygraph test and they told him 100%. Now later, one of the attorneys is like, you can't fail a polygraph 100%. That's not even a thing. So they don't know like how real that was, if that was just kind of bogus because a polygraph isn't admissible as evidence in court anyway. But so they did arrest him. And with no concrete evidence that he killed Betsy, he had to be released eventually. But they were like, we've got our guy. We know it's him. Like listen to Pam. She told us all about their horrible marriage. And she's

her best friend that's insane she must have some charm she must have something because these people always do even if you don't see it as an outsider there must be something in the room where you're like oh i believe you i'm telling you like i've that's like is that not like the triple crown of like narcissism is like having the x-factor charm the weird confidence that you could get away with something like this regardless of how sloppy you are and the love bombing like that's like she's yeah the love buying and the and the frankly not caring about what anybody else It's just like wanting to be in the middle of it, despite... Did they not even talk...

Did they not talk to, like, his pastor or church group or whatever? Because, like, that guy would have been able to say, like, oh, no, they, like, worked through their problems. Like, they're good. Like, nothing? The police board already, they've already decided, right? So they're just, they just know that he killed her. So they're like, well, great. Now we have somebody who backs it up.

We have him fake crying on the 911 call. Like, what else do we need? We're good. Like, this is literally what they're thinking. They really think he did it. So they're saying, okay, well, easy, peasy. I'm sorry, but I, and maybe I'm just too gullible, but, like, I imagine, I would, I didn't even hear the phone call. I, I know nothing, but I know what I would probably sound like.

A screen, a wailing screen, right. If you, if I saw Allison look like that, like, there's no faking that cry. There's no faking that wailing. And if, but that's what everyone says, right? And then you hear, like, the actual fake ones and they're screaming and you're like, oh, well, maybe you can fake it like you can just you know what i mean i must be too gullible i just imagine like it's such an it's like a primitive guttural experience i don't know yeah i mean i guess i must yeah someone's faked it well enough at some point so i i am obviously wrong but in my mind

i'm like how does someone even fake something like that they thought he was being over the top they said he was just being melodramatic fake crying wow that was just their yeah they just went with it um so he was released because i couldn't hold him on a anything, but soon afterward, detectives discovered new evidence in the Freya's home. So they had sprayed throughout the house with Luminal, which is a sensitive reagent that makes blood visible, even after it's been cleaned up. And it was then that they discovered blood in a drawer. And this drawer is where the Faria's kept towels. Now, they said there wasn't blood anywhere else, which meant that the killer didn't open multiple drawers, right? Which, I mean, is an interesting

point. So, like, the killer presumably knew where the towels were, went and grabbed a drawer, opened the drawer, grabbed a towel to clean up. They had known exactly where they were. So the detectives now are believing that Russ opened the drawer to get towels and clean up after killing Betsy. He was arrested again based on that blood, that luminal evidence. And on January 4th, 2012, Russ was indicted for first degree murder of his wife, Betsy Furea.

And to answer your other question, Betsy's family is completely shocked. Like they do not, they did not see this coming. detectives actually had to work to convince Betsy's mom and daughters that Russ was capable of something like this. I mean, these are his daughters, right? Like, the, it's, they are having to wrap their minds around this. I totally forgot the even kids. I totally forgot. Yes, the two girls are trying to now understand that their dad is maybe a murderer. Allegedly. Yeah, exactly. So Russ's cousin helped Russ connect with an attorney, Joel Schwartz, who believed Russ had a strong defense. And he also felt, like you said, that Russ had an ironclad alibi. He was with his friends

playing Dungeons and Dragons. And apparently by the time he called 911 on December 27th and the paramedics came out, Betsy's body was already cold and stiff, which means she would have died hours. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Did anyone take like any, what I don't remember what years is this year this was. Was it someone take pictures as being there? So it was, yeah, it was end of 2011. I guess people weren't taking a lot of pictures back then. In 2011?

I feel like you would be taking pictures. Maybe. That was during, that was, I was still, I still had a flip phone so I wasn't taking a lot of pictures. So. Well, you also weren't a police detective. Well, no, I meant I meant more like, could they go to the Dungeons and Dragons Group and be like, did anyone take pictures of that night to prove he's there? I thought you were talking about the crime scene.

Sorry, no. I was like, I think they took photos of the crimes. scene. Okay, okay, sorry. I mean like, yes, we'll get to that. Okay. We'll get to that. Okay. Yes, there is concrete evidence, yes. Okay. Ironclad, so to speak. So, first responders believed she'd been dead for several hours by the time Russ claimed

to have discovered her. And during that window, Russ was a game night with his friends. Now, on the way to his friend's house, he stopped for gas, cigarettes, and dog food. He was on surveillance footage. He had receipts, literal receipts, and figurative receipts from these purchases. All of Russ's friends confirmed that he was with them the entire evening and hadn't left. They all corroborated the same story that Russ left around 9 o'clock. And then on his way home, he stopped for food at Arby's. And he almost didn't. Okay. But he did. And he got a receipt and it was time stamped. Good. And then he got home, I think, 20 minutes later so. So it seemed impossible that he could have murdered her. Like, the window was pretty much impossible.

The defense team also questioned this supposed smoking gun of the blood in the towel drawer because they said they had photographs of this luminal evidence. And whenever the defense tried to ask for this evidence to see it themselves, the investigators would say, oh, the camera malfunctioned. But we saw the blood and the luminal. But the camera malfunctioned so you don't get to see. Like, we don't have proof of it. bullshit, okay. Yes. Yes. How can you use that in a court? I don't know. And then they use it in court and they say, oh, there's blood all over it. I swear, I saw it. I swear I was in a Versailles time slip. I don't know what else to tell you. Right. Oh my God. I was, it's just my, oh, sorry, that was my fictional chapter

that I made up about the blood and read on. It gets better and more real. It gets, but it's so good fan fiction wise. Yeah. It's, it, it, so the only, it, it, so the only, it, it, it, so the only way that the evidence of this blood in the drawer came to the courtroom was as a sworn testimony by detectives and they swore okay i don't believe that i'm sorry they fucking lied like it's just bananas they just fucking lied it really was it really was flat out lied fucking you know what i'm thinking you know what i'm thinking the trial began november 2013 the prosecution described the blood at the scene on the light switch and Russ's slippers said, how else could this be anyone

but the husband? Deputy Mike Merkel testified that the camera used to record the blood evidence malfunctioned and the photos were unfortunately, quote, absolutely nothing, but that he had seen them and he swore there was blood in the

thing lit up, the aluminum lit up and there was blood in the drawer. Pam Hup took the stand. Don't you know she loved that? She took the stand. Did she hold the microphone like you are oh my god she she probably brought her own fucking yeah exactly is this thing on she probably brought her own she took this stand she told her story about russ and betsy's like horrible marriage um that betsy was afraid of russ and according to her betsy wanted to separate from him and

and be with her i'm sorry is she gay interesting that also comes up later not to say like a lesbian lesbian folio d but oh my god i was about to say wait Wait a minute, I'm seeing some patterns here, man. This is, like, kind of the gayest crime I've ever heard of. I'm like, why? Does this not remind you of the other one where you said, hang on, is there a gay thing here when it was the, God, not nexium, I'm sorry, the five passenger, or eight passengers, mom, the Utah mom.

Yeah, that was gay or shit. And then, like, the other lady comes in and is like, we just sleep in a bed together. It's no big deal. Yeah, we're like, just kiss. Girl what? And she's like, and then I, like, beat up teenagers who say they're gay because it's so fucked up that they're gay. And it's like, girl, you need to see... The call is coming from inside the house. Yeah, the call, thank you. The call is coming

from inside the house. Um, so she's, I mean, Pam's gay. That's where I am currently. She's a narcissist and she's big fat gay. That's where we're... I have no idea. I have no idea. Okay. Okay. Well, that's my, that's my running theory currently. She claims to not be gay, but... Okay. Yeah, I did too. But, but we'll get to it. Okay. So, Pam Hupp, she takes a stand. She tells her story about, uh, about, this, like, violent marriage, yada, yada. And she says, oh, well, Betsy, my BFF, was so afraid that when she died, Russ would waste all her life insurance money and give nothing to her daughters

that she asked Betsy to be the sole beneficiary of her life insurance policy. And Betsy said, and Pam said, I would be honored. And I promise, I will make a trust in Mariah and Leah's names, and they will inherit the money once you have passed. This is psychotic. And that happened days before Betsy was mysteriously murdered on the floor of her home. Isn't that something to consider? So now they're saying this is a motive for Russ, that Russ found out she had, you know,

this abusive man found out she had given all her money away to another, like had left the money to the kids and to this other woman and that he snapped and killed her in a fit of rage. So that's what they're presenting. And people are like, yeah, I guess that makes sense. Um, the prosecution's arguing that meanwhile Russ's friends were lying like all the D&D people and that one of them went to Arby's and like ordered food to give him an alibi. And everyone's like, wait, so now you're, the defense attorney was like, now you're implicating all these people in the courtroom, these civilians that have nothing to do with this that are like not on trial. What like you, what, but it was just so bad shit. Um, fun fact also, which becomes clear in the, in the series is that, uh, the, the, uh, the. DA who was kind of the lead of this whole thing was also BFFs with the judge on the case

Oh well that's fun Yeah and it's a small town Troy Missouri it's like everyone knows everyone and she and the judge are close their friends are on the same like softball team or something she and this judge like went to high school together and so it's like you kind of see this icky

This should have been taken outside We'll just let it slide. Yeah it in a different County or something. That's, yeah, it's like there's, almost like he didn't stand a chance here. It's just, everything fell into alignment in the worst way. So now they're saying, oh, well, that's a motive for Russ, not thinking like, oh, that's a fucking motive for Pam, right? Like, it's just, people just had blinders on, you know?

They just didn't see it. So they proposed that, like, Russ left early, killed his wife and then his friend, like, went and got Arby's, but they basically said his alibi is too good. They're like, who goes to the story? were on the way to their friend's house and then stops for food and then keeps all the receipts. And it's like, what the fuck a normal person? Why are you being so weird about this? Like after game night, you smoked some weed and now you want Arby's. It's literally the least shocking thing I've ever heard. And they're acting like, oh, he like made all this up. It just is

like, how was this so convincing to a jury? I don't know. They did a number on him. If someone wants to not believe him, I guess they'll find a way. I don't know. They really did because on November 21st, after only four hours of deliberation, the jury returned with a guilty verdict. No. Oh. And the judge sentenced him to life in prison without parole. Christine, you better fucking reverse this story. Tell me.

You better fix it. And Pam is a billionaire. No. Okay. So they returned a guilty verdict, which was shocking because even the defense team was like, how did that happen? And, like, all we needed was reasonable doubt. And they were like, we have reasonable doubt. Like, we have an alibi.

And they didn't give any real proof. They didn't show photos. Like, there's no real evidence that he did this. No fingerprints, nothing. Like, no, you know, there's no blood on. By the way, there was no blood on him. Oh, guess what? The DA claimed that the reason there was no blood on him.

Maybe it's in these notes, but she claimed that he did it naked. I can't even tolerate this. at least that's what happened in the fictionalized one i can't recall if that was real from the podcast series but i think they tried to stick pretty close to what happened in those anyway i'm not entirely sure but basically they he didn't have a drop of blood on him so that was another thing they were up against but but your alibi is too good you just don't have blood on you who just doesn't have blood on them it's really bonkers it's like that really it's scary that things can go so wrong you know i mean we know that's

already but it's like scary to see it so plainly in front of us and so sidebar I think you already said this I think I might be confusing relationship dynamics but since this is such a small town and people know him shouldn't people like be a little more hesitant to if they knew him so well or knew it's a small town and everyone knows Russ shouldn't someone be like this guy wouldn't do it like I kind of don't believe that I mean I think they are they're like I can't believe he would never do that but it's like if the police are telling you trust me we have evidence it's like and they're not i mean you're not going to know the evidence so you just assume they have evidence and it's like clearly okay well christian just now they don't just know if for some reason something ever happens

where like you are the prime suspect in a murder and the cops are like believe me i promise you i'm not gonna thank you i'm gonna be like i didn't do it at least on purpose i promise i'll write you letters from jail and I'll be like, girl, I know it wasn't you. Thanks. Yeah. Thanks. I'll do what I can from out here, but good luck. I don't know.

I've just, thank you so much. So bonkers. It's mind-blowing because it's like, obviously this can just happen. Like your world turns upside down, you know? I've told you, it's my biggest fear that I'm just like wrongly convicted of something. I don't. And then on top of that, your wife has been killed.

Oh, my God. Now your family thinks you did it. Like your daughters are horrified, you know? I mean, it's just all very. And I must have. talked about this before. I'm so sorry for not letting you just like fucking go. No. I can't even imagine the tertiary trauma that comes from like not being able to even begin grieving your wife. Oh yeah. Or like beginning to breathe or process you seeing your wife

dead in such a graphic way. There's been no in between. You can even begin to do that because you're in self-preservation mode and you're already wounded or I guess, like stunted in some way because you're not on your top game because your wife literally fucking died. Yeah. Like there's just, there's so many layers of. And suddenly you're having to defend yourself, but you don't even like realize how you got here.

And there's, there's no way that you're able to put all your spoons into one thing. Like everything requires top priority and none of it's being addressed. And you're still in shock, presumably. And then like the, the other notion that like now your daughters aren't speaking to you because everyone's saying hey your dad did this and even if you don't believe me like you can't speak to him he's in jail you know he's on trial like it's like all of a sudden you lose your your family and on top of everything else and not to discount anyone else's situations but like the way that it's spread so quickly into like no one's even considering what these fucking kids are going through like

they don't even get to their mom because they have to like be shunned in town that their dad's a murderer now they have to come to terms with that before grieving their mom like it's horrible just imagine just trying to plan a fucking funeral for your mom and all this is going on and like i mean like and they're teenage girls like they're young so like imagine what they had to go through mentally for all this i mean just and so that's why i i know like the fictionalized version has uh definitely some detractors for good reason but i do think they do a good job of like showing the kids and like but on that other hand like the kids the family didn't get anything out of the movie a dollar not a cent sure it's like okay well that feels slimy and girl So, you know, it's, it's, I haven't quite put my finger on where I stand, but the, the lasagna layers of trauma is just like they're all so melted into each other. I just can't even imagine. I can't even imagine. Talk about butterfly effect. It's like every. And then, you know, I feel like the other problem with a show like that, which, you know, it almost like romanticizes the whole thing. Like it ties it up in a bow. And then at the end, you're like, oh, good. Everything's fine now. And then it's like, no, they're like, the last. Actually, it's only. impact of this yeah is going to be shocking um i promise to stop speaking now no no please don't uh it's i'm glad you're asking questions because i feel like um it's have a lot to say it deserves some clarity sometimes um and it's such a doozy of a story i mean Dateline did like an entire podcast just about this story um it's it's riveting really so if you do want to listen to it i would listen to that and it

of course has Keith Morrison being like the thing about Pam yeah of course you know doing that like voice isn't that um Matthew Perry's stepdad Keith Morrison is it I think so Keith Morrison why does that feel true because I'm not lying uh oh yeah Matthew Perry is the stepson of Keith Morrison yeah that's wild okay I was like how do I know that name and I knew Dateline but I was like I feel like I've heard about his name more recently and it was because of when Matthew Perry died so RIP, yeah, sad. So, just days before she was killed, Betsy had actually made Pam the new sole beneficiary of her life insurance policy. So that did happen.

Now, Pam set up a conditional trust in Mariah and Leah's name so they would inherit the money once Betsy died. Of course, Pam and Betsy didn't realize it would be so soon, allegedly. And this now seemed like a motive for Russ that he found out and he killed her in a rage. So the prosecution again said like, oh, they must, his friends must have like covered for him and they went to Arby's and like he left early and did it naked or whatever. They found him guilty and it was over. So the trial was over. Russ went to prison for the murder of his wife while the family and friends tried to grapple with losing both parents, both people in the couple in one fell swoop. But while Russ was in prison, things in the Faria family only got more complicated because Mariah and Leah were now having more and more conflict with one Pam Hup.

She's still fucking bothering this family? Go away. She literally, remember, made a trust for the kids? Right. The day the trial and did she canceled it. Bitch. Wow. My God.

Wow. I don't know why that shocks me so much. Mariah and Leah therefore received not a single dollar of their mother's life insurance money. To this day. Evil fucking villain. That's crazy. $100,000. And this was the reason that allegedly Pam gave was because she didn't trust her husband to give it to the daughters.

Now Pam's like, but I'm trustworthy. So I promised I would give it to her daughters. And then all of a sudden, where's the money? Pam's like, oh, yeah, I'll work on it, you know. So she really just killed this woman for $100,000? And that's it? yeah I guess and also probably was just like over the love bombing phase you know that's sick I mean there was no good reason but I'm like I'm like every time it's a monetary value I'm like

that's what someone equates a life to then huh interesting I know and I think it's also worth noting Pam had quite a bit of debt so there was that pressure as well she and her husband were in debt behind on house payments I think um However, she did use the money for a facelift, so it's like, you know, at a certain point, I know, it's just ridiculous. So Pam's stories about Betsy's fears of her husband also became uncertain. Kind of like what you said, people were like, that just doesn't sound right. Like, it doesn't feel like Betsy was scared of him. Like, it just feels so weird that this became the running theory.

Now, Pam had claimed that Betsy feared Russ would be selfish with the life insurance money and therefore she needed to protect it. And now she's taking it all for herself. And so, another of, basically another of Betsy's closest friends, Rita, her other best friend, she told a different story. Rita said, hey, actually Betsy came to me first to ask if I would take over the life insurance policy. And it's not because she didn't trust Russ to do something irresponsible, sort of that, but in a different way. She basically feared Russ would be so traumatized and,

in grief devastated after her death that he would just like spend money on the kids to like try to make them feel better. Like that was where she was coming from. What a nice way to not trust your husband. I mean, that's like, that's an understandable. I need to make sure that the family's taken care of. He's taken care of, right?

Like it's like I want to make sure he doesn't accidentally misuse the funds because he's so shocked or like distraught, you know? And that's like heartbreaking to me. And the fact that Pam was like, oh, don't worry, you can trust me with that. And Rita said that Betsy had asked her first and she said, I don't really feel comfortable with that. Like, I don't feel comfortable getting kind of involved in your family's finances. And so she said no.

Interesting. Yeah, Rita told Betsy, I'm uncomfortable with the arrangement. Like maybe you should look into setting up a trust for the money to ensure that it can be accessed and spent responsibly. and in the end, Betsy basically made an arrangement with her other best friend, Pam, who said, I'll start a trust for them. Just put me on there. Don't worry.

Okay. But then Pam canceled the trust and kept the money for herself. No one, of course, in Betsy's family knew Pam had been named beneficiary until Betsy died. And that was four days, by the way, after Pam became beneficiary, four days. So Rita, the other friend, was like, something is so off about this. like she asked me about life insurance, then like goes to her other friend and then like gets murdered mysteriously and then this other friend keeps some money. Like it's just not looking good. And she knows Betsy's very trusting and sometimes prone to being manipulated by people with not so

good intentions. Meanwhile, Betsy's daughters, Mariah and Leah, sue Pam in civil court for access to their mother's life insurance funds. And that's when Pam basically says, sorry, I'm the sole beneficiary and your mom said I can do whatever I want with this money and she didn't really care if it went to you that's so evil and yep just totally scrapped the story about this trust and everything and unfortunately the presiding judge had to agree that the legal terms said she was the sole beneficiary so even though she promised verbally to make a trust she had full access to the money and the kids would get not a dollar so that was going on and even though that close the door on Mariah and Leah getting any sort of financial compensation to help moving

forward. Russ's defense team saw that this had also opened a door for them. Pam had originally testified that Betsy made her the beneficiary to protect the money from Russ and make sure it went to her daughters. And they found a suspicious that she was now claiming, oh, Betsy said I could do whatever I want with the money. So they also found a suspicious that Pam had apparently only created the trust for Mariah and Leah right before the trial. So basically, it looked like to appease the prosecution who said, like, hey, it'll look a lot better if you make a trust now. And then after the trial, she just immediately canceled the trust, right? So they're like, this is sketchy as hell. So the defense filed for a new trial. And this request was actually granted in June of 2015.

And Russ was released awaiting trial. This time there was no jury. It was a bench trial, meaning a single judge would hear the case and make a decision without a jury. and the defense came in swinging. They attacked all of the state's evidence against Russ. There was the blood on the bottom of the slippers, right, that were so damning at the time discovered in the closet. But there was not a single bloody footprint anywhere in the home. And it's like if the bottom of his slippers are coated in blood,

so he just walked around, he forgot that he was wearing bloody slippers, put them in the closet, cleaned up the bloody foot. Like, there was not a single bloody footprint or, like, remnants of one. I mean, also, like, it feels, again, sloppy, but intentionally, like, like, half thought through to frame him because they're like, okay, well, if I put the blood on his slippers, then it'll look like he did it. But also, if there's no more blood outside of the closet where I put the shoes, then he didn't, but he bathed his fucking feet next to his dirty slippers in the closet and then not wash his slippers. By the way, he was also naked this whole time. Yeah, he was naked, but... He washed off his clothes, but not a slippery.

Like, it does... Which, like, if you're naked wearing slippers, guess what? Your ankles are going to get blood on them, babe. What are you talking about? Good point. So they're... So where's the blood?

Sorry. Nope. Am I wrong? You put slippers on a naked body. You got exposed ankles. What do you mean? The ankles? Like, okay, you wear...

If she... If the whole story is that he's naked but in slippers, right? Right. Right. Okay. So, but the slippers get blood on them. There's going to be droplets on like your shin or your ankles or something. Well, they're saying the reason he was naked is because then he jumped in the shower and washed all the blood off. I see. Okay. Because they're saying, well, there were no bloody clothes. And then she goes, well, that's because he was naked and everyone's like, what? Like, it was basically because his clothes when they came to the scene, crime scene, he had no blood on him. And that's what you mean about the footprints to the shower. There should be bloody footprints to the shower. I mean, if you were wearing slippers that were covered in blood on the bottom, it's like, wouldn't there be bloody footprints or like a trace of one or a drop, a trail, anything?

You're totally right. And it's just weird that there wouldn't be. But on top of that, the shoes looked almost like they had been, this is gross, but dipped in blood. Like they said it almost looked like someone had just taken them and like splash them in a puddle and then like set them in the closet. It's like so dark.

Yeah. So that was the first thing they attacked. The defense argued that a real killer had just dipped the slippers in in Betsy's blood and then hidden them to like half-assed frame Russ. And they also doubled down on his alibi because there's no evidence that any of his friends were lying or like going to Arby's on his behalf. Right. And this time, which unlike the first time, the first time they were not allowed to bring anything about Pam because the jury or the DA and the judge were like, well, this isn't about Pam. Like this trial isn't about Pam. It's about Russ. So we're not bringing other people. And then they have the audacity to go, oh, but I bet his friends just covered for him and are now complicit in this murder. It's like, if I can't talk about Pam, then you can't talk about the D&D folks. Like, it's just nonsense. So they double down on his alibi. There's no evidence that anyone was lying on his behalf. And they were also permitted to finally present Pam as an alternate killer. Okay. Great.

finally finally because pam is the last person to see betsy alive she's also the last person to be seen with betsy and here's basically the real story or at least as close of an approximation as i can get for you um great from from what we know about the truth so the real story is on the day betsy was killed she had arranged a ride home from her mother's house with one of her mother's friends according to her daughter maria who was with them that day pam reached out and insisted on driving Betsy home and Betsy said oh no it's fine I want to spend time with my family and my daughters and like hang out here but Pam showed up anyway I guarantee you I wasn't there obviously I like to think she was like oh me and my daughters were going to have a girl's night

since our husband's out of town she was like oh I'm a girl part of girls night it is I feel like that's what happened well she showed up but she wasn't going to be part she showed up she didn't take off her coat she basically sat there like this and stared at them until Betsy finally was like, okay, I guess I'll go with you. Ew. She's like fucking toxic as hell. This is like so insane. Okay.

So she shows up uninvited because they literally said, we're going to spend family night together, all the girls. Like, we're just going to spend family night together and then, and play games. And then Pam shows up anyway, uninvited. And she pressures Betsy. She basically coerces her into getting in the car, even though she already had a ride home. Like, there's no reason. And she's like, well, I drove all this way. Like, why would, I mean, just classic narcissistic bullshit that you keep like flipping it on the other

person. And so Betsy ultimately is like, okay, fine. I am pretty tired. Why don't you just drive me home? So Pam, again, like you said, was the only person who described any abuse in the marriage and nobody else could, could understand this, like, had heard of this pillow smothering story or any other abuse and again she had also set up this revocable trust and then like took it back and so that's also a bad look and they're saying hey that's the motive for not for russ but for for pam that's the motive for pam to kill for the life insurance money like it's so obvious people to me and to you it is hindsight i guess but the prosecution made the choice to not call pam to the stand and she was pissed they were like she doesn't have we don't trust her she's not we don't

trust her she was our star witness in the first trial because she was like feeding them everything they wanted to hear and now they're not even bringing her into the courtroom and she's fucking pissed so I did a bit of digging there was something an aspect to this that was not covered in the date line stuff and I feel like it's worth mentioning um They appealed the trial, and they were doing this new trial in front of a judge. And the defense came in, swing in with all this stuff. But apparently the prosecution claimed they had a bombshell witness on their hands that they were going to bring forward that was going to, like, rock everyone's world. And I found more details about this on a blog called The Trouble with Justice.

And this is a quote from that site. the prosecution bombshell witness who was supposed to be the pregnant mistress of Russ Ferrea kind of exploded in their faces also Carissa Barton testified that she was never pregnant with Russ's child she had lied to him after writing him a letter in prison they had a brief affair one year before Betsy's murder that lasted a month Barton had decided to end the affair because Russ seemed so happy with his wife the lie about being pregnant was a ploy to hurt him so basically they were like we have this his pregnant mistress and then the woman goes on the stand and goes now I lied about being pregnant I was just really hurt about like the murder accusations and we broke up over a year ago so like this wasn't about me you know basically like they thought like oh we're going to rock everyone's noggins and it didn't happen so after two hours of deliberation the judge determined that the case asked way too many questions that the prosecution could not answer uh Russ was a declared innocent and he was fully exonerated.

And that is like not a common occurrence. That's shocking. That's shocking. Yeah. Yeah. Rita and other friends were thrilled, but they were also terrified because now Betsy's real killer is still free. And, you know, this was a case, this was a trial against Russ once again, not against Pam.

So even if it was Pam, she's out there running around. Roughly a year later, she's sure running around. That's crazy. I have a whole page left, so she's not done yet. Thank God. I was like, you have to tell me that. No, don't worry. Don't let it end this way.

Not like this. She acts out like this. She acts out a little more. So roughly a year later, August 16, 2016, 2016, Ham Hup calls 911. Shouting for help. Okay. She says there's a man in her house who had broken in and he wouldn't leave. Okay.

The 911 operator could hear a male voice shouting at Pam. And she shouted back, No, I'm not getting in the car with you. No, get away. Then the operator heard multiple gunshots. Police responded to the call in minutes, rushing to Pam's house where they found a man dead in her hallway. I'm sorry.

Immediately, I feel like this man wasn't doing anything wrong. Correct. And I feel like she just shouted that. And he was probably far enough from the phone that nobody heard him going, what the fuck are you talking about and then she just shot him but she just wanted to okay so she just set this all up ding ding ding ding he was being held at gunpoint while she said get away get a way 100% super great okay cool I can't wait for you to find out how she convinced him to even go into her house chocolate I don't fucking know at this point like even stupider it's like okay

yeah she's just a terrible person I don't know I'm I hate her I just hate her she's bad she's a bad So they got there and she's like, oh my God, he broke into my house and he wouldn't leave. And she's had this shocking story that she arrived home minutes ago and a car pulled into her driveway behind her. A man leapt out of the vehicle, held her at knife point. He told Pam, she needed to take him to the bank to get Russ's money. First of all, why does he know Russ? Second of all, he's got a knife, but you were able to run away and find a gun? Correct.

So here's why. Or you just keep that saying on you. Like, what's going on? No, no, no, you'll know. No, no, she'll brag about it. Hold on. Oh, of course. Of course.

Of course she'll tell you. The man briefly looked away to check for witnesses. And Pam took the opportunity to bravely knock the knife out of his hand. Can you believe that? What a star? What is she talking about? Okay. She knocked the knife out of his hand.

Slacked it out of his hand? Just like a little flick. A butterfly kissed his hand open. What are you talking about? Right. Bullshit. ran towards a man with a knife okay yeah well they're in the car together and I'm like what he looks over your shoulder and then you flick the knife out of his hand and then apparently

ran away and he followed her into his into her house and then of course she retrieved her gun this is her story and then scream called 911 and then screamed like this man is in my house and he was like wait what and she shot him is she just bloodthirsty like it was probably like what's the reason like what like what was he well i'll tell you oh don't worry i'll tell you so the police find a ziplock bag inside the attacker's pocket it contained roughly nine hundred dollars in cash along with a note the note appeared to be instructions to go to pam's house and get money for russ feria she's trying to plant she's trying to plant evidence that like russ is involved in in this you know that he did it

Right. Like, but, but, bro, hang on. First of all, hang on. Like, I'm just, like, spewing with her overflowing with right now. Oh, M. It gets, like, she's so muddy. I don't even know. First of all, you literally got away with murder. Like, and it's not enough for you that someone else also got away with murder? Shut the fuck up. Like, girl, like, you already want. Like, shut up. She can't stay out. She cannot stay out of the fucking limelight. Like, why is she dragging, just because he didn't, like, it's one thing to get a, like, it's one thing to get a. away with a murder and like someone else got framed for it and like you quote one but like because someone else also got quote away with it that's like you don't want to share that title like he has to go back to jail because i think like she had a fear that now that like he was going to get her was free no that now that he was out they were going to be like well then the only reasonable person left is pam like her her well i think she knew that they would look at her next and so she was like well shit i'm going to be on the hook for this if Russ is found innocent like if he's found not guilty i'm going to be

on the hook for this which he was and so now that he's not guilty gotcha she's like shit like they're going to figure out it's me and i need to make it look like girl this somebody just go become a fucking nun or something and just stay in hiding and like just keep a low profile like couldn't be pam so this random man is now collateral damage which also goes against my gay theory like i i i it's feeling like there's not really a reason to this except to like I don't even think there's any sexual like I think she just has such a twisted mind that it's not even sexual in nature any maybe it is but okay so I guess I don't even know if I have the notes about this in here I may um but I I guess I'll just add it here just in case but um before the second trial

she showed up at the DA's office of the DA was like okay like we don't need any more info like they're starting to realize, like, oh, our star witness is kind of kooky and maybe not as credible as we thought and we're starting to look stupid. And so she keeps showing up. She's always carrying like a huge slurpy also, by the way, and she's always slurping on it. Okay, girl. Yeah, I know, because she's so quirky. And so she apparently went to the DA's office with more evidence, right?

Because she's like trying to now add to her story and they're like, okay. And she goes, she basically says that she and... Betsy were an item but not not because but not because Pam wanted to like it's so fucked up she basically says she like pitied her enough she's like I don't like women I'm not I'm not gay but like sex doesn't mean much to me and if she wanted that from me that's fine and I just gave her and it's like so they were like wait so you had a sexual relationship she's like yeah but it was private so I didn't bring it up in the last trial and they were like I can't just say that I can't even tell if that's like helpful I mean certainly not helpful but like

What is that going to do for your, your case differently? Like, she said, actually, interesting, thank you for reminding me. I didn't even clarify that. Her point, quote, unquote, was that Russ had found out and threatened to stab them if they were, if he found the lesbians together. Oh, she could say, oh, my God. I love where you're, what's going. Your frustration tickles me.

Like, she literally told them, oh, Russ said he would stab me if. stab her, stab Betsy if she was gay. So let's tack on a hate crime while we're at it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So keep him in prison, you know? That was her whole thing.

And they're like, please go home, like, let the grown-ups handle this. And so she keeps inserting herself. It's like bash it. Okay, so there's this other guy that she's now trying to frame to kill. Dead man that she's saying is like attacking her. Oh, look, it looks like he's trying to get money for Russ.

It looks like Russ hired a hitman. and the motive was getting their hands on Betsy's life insurance money, which was for Russ Ferrea written out in the note. Okay. So, right, because that's really good criminal move. Because if you finally just got out of jail, the next thing you would do is obviously implicate yourself to hire a hitman and sign the paperwork with your legal name. Yeah.

So the police ran the attacker, quote unquote,'s fingerprints, and they came back as a match to a 33-year-old man named Lewis Gumpenberger. Lewis's mother had already reported him missing. The police went to her home and she was so relieved thinking they had found him safe, but the police told Margaret Birch that Lewis had been killed. And not only that, they told her he was suspected in a murder for hire plot. And Margaret is fucking floored because she goes, hey, he's not capable of that. And they go, yeah, we know.

And she goes, he's raising two children with his ex-girlfriend. He adores his family. he would do almost anything to support them but he would not commit violence and they said well you never know and she said no no no I mean he's incapable physically because he was in a terrible car accident a few years ago

he suffered a traumatic brain injury and he could not use most of the right side of his body oh my god he could barely use a spoon let alone chase him down with a knife again and this I hope this isn't at all offensive

to the fact that like he's like chronic or disabled. Like, yes, he is, yes. But she took advantage of that. But this is, again, evidence that she's, like, not, she's still sloppy with her intentional planning. Correct.

She's not good at this. You couldn't find someone who maybe could overtake you, you know what I mean? Oh, she did. Don't worry. We'll get to her later. Oh, my, fuck. Okay. Like, she's really.

This is just so. It's really bad. Really bad at this. Really bad at this. There's no medical, physical way. Sorry, I didn't mean to say metaphysical. There's no medical, nor is there a physical way that Lewis could have done this. So police are like scratching their heads.

And then right around then they get a call from this woman named Carol Alford. Carol is like something weird happened to me last week. I was sitting on my porch in my trailer and this woman pulls up in a black SUV and said she was a producer for Dateline NBC. Okay. She told Carol, oh, hey, I'm a producer for Dateline. I'm looking to pay someone to participate in a reenactment for the show, and I'll pay you $1,000 in cash. Carol got in the SUV.

She's like, well, okay, it seems like easy money. In fact, Carol began to feel it seemed too easy, and she suddenly realized this is kind of an uncomfortable red flag situation. She said to the producer, oh, shoot, I left my front. door unlocked. Can I go back and lock it? So the producer drove her back home. But once Carol got to her house and out of the SUV, she was like, I'm not coming with you. Bye. And went inside. Yeah. And it was then that the producer noticed that Carol had security cameras outside her house. And she suddenly ducked back inside her SUV and bolted. Whoopsies. The irony of Dateline, like actually

appearing later on. Well, no, Dateline was already in town. Oh. Oh. Oh. she had heard that Dateline was there and she was delighted because now suddenly she's like on Dateline right Christine I mean it's like fucking bananas this is out so she's now running around saying she's a Dateline producer and it's believable because these people know

that there's this case going on and that there are Dateline producers around filming and to be clear they are in town because they're covering this exact story where she is one of the prime suspects and now she's like Hey, I'm actually on the payroll. She's rolling around saying, I work for Keith Borson.

Yeah, fuck off. It's just, it's just like, I can't, I'm done trying to make sense of this. Well, Carol had cameras on her house. And so Carol is so smart. She actually stalled outside for a few minutes to make sure that the producer's car, the license plate was caught on camera, and it worked. When the producer said, like, what are these cameras? Carol said, yes, I also have a knife and know how to dial.

911 and then fucking this lady fucking bolted peeled out of there and the license plate was captured and the vehicle was registered to a company owned by one Pamela Hupp. Uh huh.

You zoom in Pam's face, clear as day right there. And dare I ask what do we think Pam's actual plan was to just kill this random person? Okay. So the police put a case together against Pam and the new working theory is after Russ was exonerated there would be a new investigation she knew she'd be the prime suspect like the clear obvious answer here so she needed to deflect suspicion and make herself look innocent and make Russ look guilty again so she concocted a fake murder for higher plot against herself and then she looked for an unwitting participant to frame so in other words the woman with the cameras Carol had barely escaped with her life like she was going to be the one who was shot in Pam's house but she was like

something's off and got out of the car and thankfully had that footage of the of the license plate um but tragically lewis had not escaped with his life he'd fallen victim to this plot being told oh i'll give you a thousand bucks if you act in this like reenactment for date line and he's like sure i have two kids to support oh so maybe he went in thinking for a second that like this was part of the reenactment no that is what he went in yeah she went in because carol bailed and so then she went to find someone else she found this guy and said would you be in an act and so he walks in her house thinking he's gonna help her with a scene for dateline and he gets shot in cold blood the notion of killing people to cover up your last killing is like so it's backwards it's beyond it's beyond it's beyond it's beyond it's like if you stop and

think about for a second girl like this is i mean really this is a lot like let's just like a second like maybe stop killing people if you're trying to get away with not killing people you know what i mean I think that's a good first step, at least, right? Rule of thumb. Don't kill people if you don't want to be arrested for killing people. It should be the only rule, you know? So the police arrested Pam on August 23rd. That was just days after she claimed to survive this harrowing ordeal with this knife-wielding attacker.

And so as the evidence is stacking up against Pam, the prosecution plans to seek the death penalty against her for the murder of Lewis Gumpaburger. Desperate to save her own life, Pam ultimately accepted an Alford plea, which is basically a, we, I've talked about a little bit, but it's where the defendant doesn't admit guilt, but they say I could, I worry that if I go on trial, there's enough evidence that a jury will think I'm guilty. Like, I'm not saying I'm guilty, but I know it looks bad. So I'm going to submit an Alford Preet, please saying, I'm not guilty, but I'm, sure, pleading guilty. Is it like, if that makes sense? Like a no contest or whatever it is?

Um, no, it's, it's like, uh, it's basically like saying, all right I plead guilty but just so everyone knows I didn't actually do it I'm not saying I did it it's like you're admitting guilt but you're not but you're still saying but I'm innocent I just know that my chances are not good if I go on trial

I'm aware the situation looks bad yes I worry that a jury or a judge might find me guilty based on what evidence I'm seeing so I'm going to plead guilty to take the deal but I didn't do it so in 2019 Pamela Hupp was

sentenced to life in prison without parole for the murder of Lewis Gumpaburger. Then in 2020, Russ won a $2 million settlement in a lawsuit against three officers who were accused of fabricating evidence in the murder case against him. Felony charges were, oh, by the way, those fucking photos, they found them. The photos existed, and guess what? There was no luminal or no blood or whatever. Not a single drop. Not a single fucking drop. Of course.

To say, like, yeah, I saw those. I swear. I mean, it's just wild. Yeah, so Russ won the $2 million lawsuit. Felony charges were brought against Deputy Mike Merkel, who had testified about these malfunctioning cameras and saying they destroyed all this evidence of blood that we'd spotted and then turns out to be that 130 images had been captured,

not a single spot of blood. And they were like hiding it from them. Like they deleted them and said, oh, they're missing. Insane. the issue with the photos notwithstanding uh mike was also charged with stalking and harassing the detective who led the investigation against him that's just a side bar uh so he's just not a good dude in 2021 pam was charged with first degree murder and the death of betsy feria thankfully finally she maintains her innocence of course she does and her trial is scheduled for late august of

26. So a year from now as we record this. Wow. Very, very curious how that's going to go. In a 2022 interview, Russ said he hoped he would have a chance to testify against Pam, finally. That would be quite powerful, I think. And he wants justice for Pam and himself. He wants some sort of closure. Of course, his family, Betsy's family, they've all been just deeply traumatized by this whole event. The Dateline podcast, the thing about Pam, followed by a series of followed by the mini-series starring Renee Zell Wigger as Pam is all very sensational and suspenseful and captivating but like as I pointed out earlier the family didn't reap any reward from this and in fact probably just were re-traumatized by the whole ordeal and I guess that's

kind of what true crime does in a pop culture space but it just feels you know a little a little weird I'm still trying to parse how I feel about all this it's just really really sad and I feel like it just sometimes misses like the finer points like uh apparently there's still quite a fracture in the pharia family and and the daughters don't speak with their father or he doesn't speak with them there's there's been like quite a rift and it's just really heartbreaking because it feels like the whole family is just shattered you know and in some ways it's like super understandable and otherwise it's just such a shame yeah it is it's like it you can see why and you can respect it but it is sad yeah you can't blame anyone it's i mean it's got to be awkward to like try to rekindle after like

you have to unlearn all the things you were forced to learn about somebody well and the teenagers like they were forced to testify on the stand like they had to testify against their dad and say like oh he was like angry or something you know like they were like pressured in it testifying yeah and even if they didn't even if they didn't even if they believe that he didn't do anything maybe just being in a room with him is just too hard you know i mean yeah or i mean i heard some theories this all reddit and like other so i don't know the factual basis of this part but somebody was saying they saw like um an interview he did where he said like he's not comfortable he wants to move on and leave that

behind so maybe it's him not maybe it's hard for him to see them or relationship right maybe so it's unclear also like it seems fractured maybe they could like look like their mom and it's hard to look at them or maybe it could be it yeah it could be anything and all of it is fucked up but also justified like valid right yeah so that's the story of the thing about pam At the dog park, I was talking to some people I've become friends with and they're like, oh, like, what kind of topics does your co-host bring? And I was like, sometimes they're very fucked up. I was like, I was sure you want to know the answer to that question. I kind of gave a vague answer, but I was like, you know, it's hard to banter.

It's tough to call yourself a comedy podcast when I just sit in silence and go, oh, my God, a million times. Yeah, that part's not funny. No, not at all. Oh, wait. My part's the funny part, I think sometimes. I think so. I'm going to send you a picture, first of all, of Pam, her mugshot. And then I'm going to also send you a picture of Renee Zelliger in the scene where she is pressuring Betsy to leave.

And she sits on a love sack, you know, those like love sack. And the daughter goes, it's a love sack. And she's like, of course it is. And she sits there with her slurpy. Oh, my God. Do you see that? And with her love sack or with her chill chugs, slurpy. The slurpy and the fucking coat.

You know, they made her look pretty similar. That's a pretty spot on... That's what I'm saying. Like, it really... She does a good job of the acting. I know that, like, it's not... Controversial, but... But it does look like her.

It really, it's convincing portrayal, if that makes sense. But, um... Wow. Well, if anyone wants anything a little more lighthearted, you can head on over to our yappy hour. Yeah, I actually opened the document of yappy hour suggestions and questions. So I'm like, maybe we do that. for finally now that we've asked people to tell us what to do uh maybe we actually listen

and do one of these yapping topics um all right and other than that uh go watch christine live while i sit at home with my dog um and you can go find her at beach dandy.com right thank you that's right and you can find us at and that's where drink dot com at ATWWD podcast our listeners listeners stories if you'd like to submit your own situation that you endured um and yeah drink some water take that medication that you said you would take two hours ago and then you forgot i hate when that happens and you have laundry in the dryer shit i have laundry in the washer it's even worse and that's why we drink