And That's Why We Drink - E455 Halloween Boy Math and Jerry Springer Ghosts

Episode Date: October 26, 2025

It’s Episode 455 and we are just fish in a haunted barrel. Today Em brings us to their home state for the 6304 Beryl Road Haunting complete with evil tumbleweeds. Then Christine covers the murder of Shelia von Wiese-Mack which has us breaking out our police lights. And is the Grinch our new Roman Empire? …and that’s why we drink! Get a free 30-day trial of our Yappy Hours on Apple Podcasts https://apple.co/3L28lDw when you subscribe this month! Or subscribe on Patreon: http://patreon.com/ATWWDPodcast Grab your Paraween merch at atwwdmerch.com !___________________Go to http://quince.com/drink for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Go to http://hellofresh.com/drink10fm now to Get 10 Free Meals + a Free Item for Life! Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to http://rocketmoney.com/drink For a limited time, get 60% off your first order, plus free shipping, when you head to http://smalls.com/DRINK If you think you or someone you know might be struggling with OCD, please don’t wait to get help. Go to https://learn.nocd.com/ATTWD and book a free call with their team to learn more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

From best-selling author Wendy Walker comes a gripping new psychological thriller with a spectacular twist. Three friends, two timelines, one deadly truth. Don't Miss Walker's new audible original, The Room Next Door, a tightly crafted, ever-twisting mystery told from three points of view, starring acclaimed narrator and fan favorite Julia Waylon, alongside Elizabeth Evans and Beebe Wood. They were best friends forever, until the night one of them disappeared. In 2010, Brooke Lowry, Carrie Hollis, and Eve Shea were inseparable. But on the 4th of July, Eve vanished, and her case was never. solved. Brooke moved away, but Carrie couldn't let go, her obsession driving her to become chief of

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The Room Next Door is a deeply immersive, richly complex, nail-biting thriller. Follow every step and misstep, Brooke, Carrie, and Eve take. Don't miss Wendy Walker's new Audible original The Room Next Door. Go to audible.com slash the room next door and start listening today. This podcast is sponsored by Squarespace. We have been using Squarespace since we started the podcast. like before, like since we, before we launched it, which is, yeah, yeah. So we've been using it longer than the podcast has been around because we have

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Head to Squarespace.com slash drink for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code drink to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Hey, everybody. The world's on fire. And on top of the world being on fire, we're all dealing with a lot on our own. A lot of people have anxiety for obvious reasons. There's a lot of mental health stuff that we're all probably dealing with. But there's a group of us who are dealing specifically with OCD and on top of everything else going on. It can be incredibly debilitating. Condition that causes people to get stuck in a cycle of stressful and wanted thoughts and repetitive physical behaviors. And it really can be debilitating.

But because there are so many misconceptions out there, a lot of people don't know that they even have it or feel shame about their symptoms. They suffer in silence. Not every therapist even understands OCD or is qualified to treat it effectively, which can make it difficult to find the right help. But that is where no CD comes in. With no CD, you can do live virtual ERP therapy with. licensed therapists who specialize in OCD. No CD therapists are highly trained so they'll really understand

OCD and won't judge you no matter what your thoughts are about. And OCD, their therapy, is covered by insurance for over 155 million Americans. So you are not alone out there. No CD is there to help with this ERP therapy. Christine suffers from OCD

and she's used this. It's a big help for people who really, really need it. If you think you were someone, you know, might be struggling with OCD, please don't wait to get help. Go to nocd.com and book a free call with their team to learn more. That's NOCD.com to schedule a free call and learn more. I don't know how the rest of the song goes.

Is that even, what is that? Oh, that's, oh, on the pipe, on the pipe organ. Vampires, yeah. I don't know. I call, I call vampires. I think that's the only, that's all of it. Oh, no. I thought there was like a second, there's a bridge.

A key change. I thought there was like a guest star that comes in on the third bit. Oh, God, I can't even handle it. It's a tight three. It's a tight three. Okay, well, I'm trying, I'm still over here trying to get a fucking Halloween background because I came of like a fucking loser

showed up without any Halloween I mean and then I tried to pull my little like Raven over and knocked a bunch of my books off the shelf so it's like I can't even and then I tried to put a background on and it's only giving me like inside a lake or inside a rainbow and I'm like none of that is the vibe

for today so M's really prepared with caution tape and spider woods oh my god even the fucking pictures are askew wait for the video people I want to change it like this for a second? How do I make it just? No, not not. Hey. Bye. M.

How do I make it you? Hold on. Oh, shit. Make it me. That's the third on the tight three. Oh, is it? Well, wow. Okay, now I remember. Okay. Now, make it me. Okay, well, fuck my life. It's not working. Oh, my God. Now it, help. I feel like we're. There you are. There we. I am. Oh. What's happening? Why is it pink? Because I have a little light. I was supposed to

so cool the whole thing was supposed to be purple but this part is the window and so it's they're fighting well i mean to be fair it's my fault because i like it's it's supposed to be contained i just like made you full screen but you the movie magic was ruined i'm sorry but would you like to behind the scenes studio tour of m's haunted manor it uh would you like to pick a color i love these oh i love these i'll never get old of these they're tired of these um here we'll turn it this way so you get the whole color there's something about a remote for a call it for a light bulb instead of an app you know multi access yeah I like a purple but I know it's already kind of a purple I was trying to do spooky colors orange doesn't really do much right now

it doesn't feel it feels like I'm in a pumpkin you know like and like and there's green that's kind of spooky green looks spooky for sure and I think the red with the caution tape is like a little true crimey oh I'll make that for your for your side yeah that feels right okay good so yeah I think green or purple or something is good for the Halloween ah I do like the green that looks good you do that's better than the purple you think I don't think so okay because purple is the the main I guess second is the secondary and green is the tertiary for Halloween right oh it's a perfect three or whatever the fuck you have I three three I don't know you are having a problem today um how about this how about we keep it at uh we keep it at green for opening statements

and then um for opening statements oh my god okay uh rebuttal I don't know any other words um well I was going to tell you, Christine, I'm actually glad that basically what happened is Christine, I'm glad that I'm here with you today. I'm glad you came to my office today. No, Christine showed, during my office hours, Christine showed up and looked at my background what the fuck's going on and I went, it's our Halloween episode. So everyone, happy Halloween, everybody, and Mary Salon. But I'm very, I'm very glad that on your end, you did not know that because I also, I also had a costume prepared and there was a female function. And so I'm

Now then I would have looked like a real fool Well You want to hold your words there Because let me finish my sentence You might still look like the smartest person in the room There's I thought about Here was the thing

I said a while ago When I think when we first got Hank Because it's it's baby's first Halloween And I was saying about dressing him up as Hankinstein So then I was like Yes very good I thought about being bride of Hankinstein I thought that was funny.

That's fun. That's funny. I mean, you have the white dress from when you were a lady in white. So it could have really worked. Actually, I think you gave that to our manager, Maggie. So never mind. She did like it a little too much. Actually, you didn't give it to her.

She like took it out of the green room and was like, can I have this? And you were like, sure. Yeah. She definitely still has it. Although now I'm starting to see why there's so many women in white that haunt the area because a white dress is so versatile, you know? I guess so. Like, it's really making the rounds already, you know?

Well, I thought, okay, I'm going to do something Frankenstein-themed. And so I ordered a Halloween costume. And this is why I hate men. Let's start there. Go off, King. If you follow the internet at all, if you are at all chronically online like I am, you know that there is the trope that if you get a man who's your Instagram shopper, you just cancel the fucking order and try again until you get a woman.

It's almost like, it's like become, yeah, a whole meme of like, the back and forth between your male Instacart driver who's like, is this what you want? Yeah. No idiot. To a point where now a bunch of, for I'm sure more nefarious reasons with Uber, but on Instacart, a lot of men now have a woman's name as their name on their account. So that way people won't cancel their order.

No. But then if I get like, Brittany gave you bananas when you asked for batteries, it's like, I know a man is Brittany. I know that. Brittany, don't fuck with me, Brittany. Well, a man was my Instagram for my Halloween gift for my Halloween costume.

A gift to you, I suppose. Yeah, my gift. What did he do with my gift? Well, I asked for Frankenstein and you would think a grown-ass man would know what Frankenstein is. Please. I didn't even get a note at all

that it said that it was out of stock. I don't know what happened. Do you... Is this a Spirit Halloween situation or what's like the venue? Okay. The venue, yeah. So this man is going to a Spirit Halloween.

You would think there's Frankenstein or at least, I would imagine if you're doing the the boy math of it all, it's like, well, there's no costume, but here's like green face paint or something. Right. Like here put something on. Wait, so, so, so, so, so he already knows, he's going, he's not going to like target. He's going to Spirit Halloweeds. So he knows this is like a costume, presumably. Or at least, you know, if you put two and two together, um, you're not shopping for batteries or bananas. You're shopping for a costume. So what, so you instructed, please find a Frankenstein

costume or was there one in that you like checked and you were like, this is what I want? I put Frankenstein and then I even put because I was afraid to be a man I put like what are your other options and there was like other Frankenstein like right to replace it or whatever there should have been no confusion do you want me to tell you or you want me to show you because it it did arrive I just decided I'm not fucking wearing it but do you want me to you want me to put it on I kind of want you to put it on okay please I fully want you to put it on I don't I don't just remember the plan was Frankenstein just remember that please hold now now not to be that guy we're talking frank he didn't pull like a wise ass thing of like oh i got you doctor frankenstein not

frankenstein's monster did he i wish because that would have been really really like well actually you know um okay so we're talking the green guy yeah okay the green guy i'm ready i'm gonna put it on jack elevator music oh transylvania vampire music can i open yeah I'm a condom. Stand up. Show the class. What the actual fuck is going on? Dallion.

What kind of... What the... For the 1% of men eight inches or larger. okay it doesn't okay what why i please your head doesn't even fit out of it oh that's what she said okay no this oh shit this is what i got to do now i'm so sorry to do this but this is the only way hold on it's the only way okay let me see now okay it says stallion okay it's like literally a wrap a condom wrapper let's be clear about that and it says it's gold and in big black letters it's a full body costume em's head sticking

at the top. A stallion, it says, for the 1% of men aided inches or larger, XXXL. Is that all that's on there? And then you just put your arm, oh, here we go, lubricated lay with a Y, latex. And I don't know if that was supposed to be a joke or if that's just a typo. Oh my God, you look so sad. So I'm a broken condom. That's, or at least a broken wrapper. So I've been used. A broken, you're a used condom. You're literally used condom. You're literally used condom. which is even worse a used condom wrapper like why why is that even a costume oh my god this is good look now you have a little background a man apparently yeah who made this who said this should be an option at spirit Halloween i'm so delighted because alexander and i are doing a uh an episode on

Halloween costumes this next week and i haven't done my research yet and now i put a searing review for you literally only need reviews of this fucking bad boy uh ordered frank Constine costume got used condom wrapper. Like what? How? Was there any note? There was no note. No.

You would think it there'd at least be sorry. And this man, this is the worst. I was in my front yard. He hand delivered this to me. And I, I, and he did it with such a confidence. Did he have to take a picture like the DoorDash, you know, the DoorDash, you know, the DoorDash gremlin subreddits? Somewhere there's a picture of me proudly holding it thinking I got my Frankenstein outfit.

And then I went inside and I looked to. and I looked in and I went, why is it gold? And I went, oh, the rapper's kind of crazy. L-O-L was literally a fucking gold rapper. I am out of my mind right now. I don't even know what to make of this situation. This is like one of, this, like, this is where you have to literally screen record and post this on TikTok because I feel like it's just unbelievable, you know? Like, screen record the order because it's like, this is what I did.

What could possibly go wrong and how wrong could it possibly go and here's what I got? like that's honestly I thought you were going to show me like yeah literally anything but this yeah anything else a wear wolf yeah something I've never even seen this I didn't know it existed this is the scariest part of my Halloween it's terrifying do I wear it the whole time what do I do what do that's what she said that's what he said I mean technically I'm in a costume it's not even aesthetic for the for the cam it's like it helps that the green light is reflecting so it looks sort of like a Martian or like yeah there you go you look either wicked or um Frankenstein or an alien or a green condom wrapper thank you i mean i guess i'll

just it's too putting it on was a real i'm sure i'm sure others have said something something putting it on yeah it's a little it's a little too small for me if you know what i mean actually this xxxxl is just not it's just for the one person And I've never seen anything quite so, like, just mind-numbingly stupid as a replacement for a common item. Like, for a Spirit Halloween, like a monster, a Frankenstein. My first thought was, who made this? And my second thought was, who bought this? Like, who said, anyway, I'm going in circles here.

I'm just, like, so over. And it was right before we were going to record, too, because I was like, I don't have time to fix this. We will literally lose our minds to madness if we try to find the logic here, but I keep trying. I'm like, condom, does that mean something in a different language? Like, I'm literally trying, but I don't think there's a reason, unless anybody else out there has some sort of fantastical explanation here. It's out of control. I feel like I should order a costume now and just see what happens. Can you be the spermacidal lube and then together we make magical if it's it does say it's a lubricated latex.

I see. Maybe you can be an IUD. And then we're like really protected over here, you know. Oh, my God, you're right. And also, like, I'm in Kentucky, so I could be, like, K.Y. Jelly or something, you know. Now stop it right there. Just saying, maybe I wear, maybe I wear, like, a smucker's costume. And everyone's like, what are you?

And I'm like, I'm K.Y. Jelly, get it. I put, like, I put, like, ooh, I'm, like, a jelly. And then I also am holding or I'm, like, wearing a cowboy hat and, like, have a horse. And I'm like, I'm K, K.K.K. Oh, I see. Yes. I'm like Kentucky, totally. 100%.

That's fucking dumb, Christine. No, you've just found a way to insert a cowboy into your fantasies again. I know. I can't stop myself. I really can't. Can you hear this? I'm just for the sound. Just try to take it off or is it going to bother everybody?

I just like, I don't hear anything except I just see you going like. Okay. Well, because to me it's so loud because it's a rapper. Why don't you take it off? We've gotten. You look, you look sad. I mean, you look sad in like a pitiful way. There's nothing sadder. You look like you're poking out of like, I know you're, literally, I'm not kidding.

I look like a penis head. You look like a penis head with a weird amount of pubs on the top of it. I'm going on the part, on the part, oh no, you're a show, you're a show, you're a grower, not a shower. Okay, so you don't like this. I was going to say it could be like a lays bag, but then I went, no, it literally looks like a condom wrapper. There's not really a way around it. I've never even touched a human, like a real... A human one.

Wait a minute. Yikes. This is the most intimate I've ever been with a condom wrapper. You for sure touched a condom wrapper. Like in those free ones they gave you at the health clinic? Or were you too scared? I was too scared. I don't think I ever went...

Oh, no, I have touched a condom, but it was for educational purposes only. I was going to say, didn't your mother teach you how to... Didn't your mother teach you how to use it? Yeah, the only other time I've touched a condom is in front of my mom. So it's been a bad record over here. And now in front of all of our many listeners, so. I hope everyone's happy. We are, by the way, really happy.

Just for the still for Megan, because I know she's going to get one. No, when I made it like big, we have to make it big again. Oh, that's what she said. Hey! There you go. Now you're more in the in the frame. Now talk about big. Stallion.

Help me. That's fucking insane. It's when you lean forward and you can see the inside of the wrapper that it looks like deeply nuts. Like it, because it looks like it's actually an open wrapper with like, by the way, also, that's not even how condoms open. So condoms like you tear them. Right. So it literally looks like you, the condom's so big, it like popped out of the fucking wrapper. Like it was on a plane and the air made it bust, you know? Yeah. Like it's just too much, too much pressure. So yeah, I feel like for your comfort's sake. I mean, I'm loving it. So don't do it on my behalf. But for your comfort's sake. I'm fine. I just want to make sure the sound isn't getting fucking. No, I don't, I don't hear anything. It's. except just laughter from my own mind. Yeah. Excellent.

Okay. Wow. I'm so thrilled, actually. Remember when I said I looked like an idiot? You're right. Yeah, because you were like, oh, well, I look stupid. I went, you fucking sit there. You sit pretty with your stupid little perfect neutral hair.

Oopsie. And my neutral background and my rainbow virtual background. Yeah. No matter. This is maybe, I don't know about PSA, but a gentle comfort to others that if you feel like costume is stupid this year nothing's as dumb as this yeah don't worry it could be worse and that's what we're here to tell you most weeks actually and and that's why we drink i mean this is really maybe one of my favorite reasons you've ever brought to the table as to why you drink because it's

really excellent i would like this to be the gavel in the courtroom this would this should be the final straw for why you should never let men shop i just no for real you need to post this to ticot for real or or or megan or somebody but like the the the the the excellent expectation versus reality, whatever you want to call it. Like, this is probably one of the more jarring encounters I've had with this kind of experience. Wow. Yeah.

And if you're a man and you think maybe I should be an inscar chopper, heed my warning, this is what you have to be better than. Please be better than this. Just try a little bit. Just try, like, for a second. Just like a little bit. Something green would have made sense more than this. Google Frankenstein real quick.

Read your phone. If you don't know what it is. I feel like he thought he was on a side quest and was like, go, to just get whatever you want. Just go to spirit. And then this happened. Anyway, that's crazy. And the fact that he wasn't like, here, let me message you and check real quick. Yeah. He didn't say, are you okay with this? Because he knew it was a no. Anyway, that's why I drink. Why do you drink, Christine? Wow. And the fact that like the implication, I don't want to talk about me. I want to talk about this some more. The implication that this guy was like, oh, I know, I'll tell

them that they have an eight inch dick. That'll work. Like, what are you doing? Like, of all choices. It is. It's a fucking choice, though, you know? It's like, well, okay. Anyway, yeah, why do I drink? I mean, this is now all I'm going to think about today. Why do I drink? I don't even remember. I had a reason. Do you have plans to, like, without someone interfering with your plans? Do you have a costume for Halloween? Oh, sure do. I don't even get to make plans anymore. Leona has decided she's Pete the cat this year. And I said, okay, pretty easy. let's do it um and i said oh fun i get to decide what to be and she said and you'll be grumpy toad this time and i was like that fits though oh god uh so yeah i'm grumpy toad um i am kind of excited because i do have a lot of like grinch oh that's what i was going to talk about the grinch okay so we found our way there um i do have a lot of grinch-esque um accessories and apparel because I have a sick problem about the Grinch.

Do you? Yeah, and Alexander said that the other day. He said, what do you mean? And I said, well, you know me. I love the Grinch. And I feel like I'm creating a Mandela effect by accident. Yeah, you're fucking crazy. What are you talking about?

He was like, what do you mean? Because I was shopping. Okay, so I got an email from Colorpop and they were like launching our new Grinch collab from Whoville. And I was like, holy shit. And I showed my brother. and I said, I'm buying this right now. It's like a hundred bucks.

This is made for me. And he was like, are you, is this a, is this a bit? I don't get it. And I was like, what do you mean? Is this a bit? You know, that's my favorite film. And he was like, it is. And I like, I think he was just like, I don't.

And then he actually said, this is, this is one of the like, I don't even want. It wasn't cruel, but it was definitely cold. And it was also totally appropriate. He said to me, I really don't care about the Grinch. and I went oh I see I thought this was a sibling thing where like we were both really amped about how color pop has this new drop and he was like I'm happy for you but I'm gonna make it so clear that this is not of interest to me I feel like you no wonder you sang the Who song so well yeah you know I think something was there I guess it covered the Grinch as a crime story one year I know it's all coming together all of a sudden and then every newsletter that Jess sends out a holiday time. I mean, every newsletter that Jess sends out during Christmas time, I always recommend the Grinch, but the 1960s version, people, the 30-minute version, the made-for-TV one,

that's the only one I like and I love it. I do kind of actually like the newer one, not the one, not the live action. I love Jim Carrey, but I am not a fan of that franchise of the Jim Carrey one. It scares me. So then what's the newer one? I thought there was only two of them. No, there was an animated one. with like, I really liked it.

Like, CGI? No, it was animated. Let me see what year that was. 2018, they made a Grinch. And I thought it was pretty cute. It has like Benedict Cumberbatch as the Grinch. Oh. And I thought it was pretty cute.

And Rashida Jones and some other cool people. But I was watching that one time. And I was like, you guys, let's watch the Grinch. And my dad walked in the room. This was like a year ago. And he walks in the room and he goes, who is this man? And I was like, why are you shouting? First of all. And I was like, shut up. We're watching the Grinch. And he's like, I've never met this man in my life. And I'm like, why are you even talking right now? Nobody's met this man. What? Shut up. So anyway, I got over that eventually. And then somebody stole my Grinch decorations last year. So I was pretty upset about that. But I'm reclaiming all my Grinch love. I remember one of my earliest memories is reading the entire Dr. collection like anthology in a chair in my room like a weird german child like sitting on a

wooden chair and just like reading the entire anthology and i remember thinking like now this is how a rhyme scheme is done thank you theodore guys well he gets it great yeah perfect and so i think that's where this all began and then the grinch has just held a special place in my heart and then now that it's grumpy toad time for me i can lean into my furry green maybe that's what I'll try. I'll try to order like a Grinch or a frog costume and maybe I'll get a condom too. You know what? You can only go up from here. I mean, that's shooting to the moon. If he doesn't know who Frankenstein is, he's not going to know who the Grinch is. He's never met that man in his life either, I'm sure. My biggest prayer for you is that everyone's car chopper is a woman. That's so kind.

Wasn't a Leona grumpy Toad one year? So we're just doing a roll reversal situation. That's right. I was Callie Cat. This year, Blaze is Callie Cat. So we're doing also Gender Bender again. Love that. This year, Blaz is Callie. She's Pete the Cat and I'm Grumpy Toad. So I was like, actually, that kind of casting works pretty well.

Yeah, it's just kind of like a school playing. Everyone gets to rotate. Yes. And she got like a little guitar for her birthday. So I'm like, okay, we already have the props. Like, you're Pete the Cat. Wear these shoes. And she said recycle, babe.

You know? Right. And wear blue. blue and I'm like grinch clothes I'm ready like people are like people you and Alexander are the only people I've discussed us with and it's been of development over the last three days which is sometimes why I think my therapist asked if I've ever had like manic episodes and I'm like what are you talking about um I will say I've never in was a 455 episodes uh I've never heard this in my life interesting and I think I think I'm just you know it's about time I

just open up about it you should come out it's about thank you i'm very proud of you yeah what is your favorite thing about the grinch is it the story or did the characters are they just feel good characters is it the it's the wimsy it's a nostalgia it's a whimsy and it's also the rhyming i think is very soothing to my to my obsessive compulsive disorder and it really just a hit it's right spot i love the book i read the book a lot growing up um and there's something about the old style animation of it that is like creepy but I love it like it's like the Jim Carrey thing I'm like that's just plain creepy I don't want that but like the old timey like retro animation I don't know something about it is very nostalgic to me and then after you know I had my little witchy time

in Egypt and everything and I got back and I was like really contemplating the meaning of life yes I'm going to bring the Grinch up in a moment I was thinking about the Grinch again because I do often even though nobody apparently knows that and it's like my roman empire you know how people were just like ask like how often do you think about the roman emperor everyone's shocked how often their partner or like a guy thinks about the roman empire like maybe that's me with the grinch like nobody's ever asked you know so i'm like all the time um but i don't even remember the point of the story except that the meaning of life and how the crinches are wrong about that oh the meaning of life oh how the grinch talking that so then i was like learning about shocking

And I thought to myself, oh, like, you know, you're, you're, you're trying to open your heart chakra. It's really, it closes because, because life is hard. And when things happen and you get triggered, like your heart closes. So I've been practicing to just open my heart. And I was like, thinking about this. And then I read the book to Leona, the Grinchy Soul Christmas. And it was like, oh, his, his heart was too small. And then at the end, it like grew in size. And I was like, that's so nice. I've been trying to work on like, you know, feeling into my heart and really opening it and so I was like wow that's nice and now he has a big heart and he shares with everybody and now they all live each other at the end and everyone gets

fun presence I feel like I'm a bit Amelia Bedeli on that because when I was uh not to bring in another book reference but when I heard that his heart grew three sizes I literally thought anatomically my organs could grow like oh and that's frightening especially for someone with a future heart condition yeah all of a sudden I'm like did it happen you're like uh oh I better not be I better shut this shit down before things get out of the end. No, because they did make it scary. Like, it was, like, growing out of the machine. I know.

It looks like an electrical experience. And I think I kind of always, like, ignored that. But then this year I read it, and I was like, oh, okay, like, symbolically, that's kind of nice. Yes, symbolic. His heart grew, you know, I don't know. And that's, like, very blonde, cliche, but I don't know. There's something about that movie that's always just, like, get home for me.

And I tried to not because I was like, I don't like the Jim Carrey one. And I was like, ah, it's been over. done and stuff. But this year I was like, you know what, I'm going to reclaim it. I love The Grinch. Nice. And that's the real me. Okay. Yeah. And by the way, what a Halloween treat for all of us. That should have been like a Christmas announcement. That's amazing. I showed up not even knowing it was our fucking Halloween episode. And I'm like, I'm actually ready. I brought, I prepared a conversation about The Grinch for today. I can't wait for Christmas when you're like, so Halloween's my favorite tradition. I know when I'm like, hey, let's talk about Grumpy Toad. You know, it's funny. I, I mean, I don't

mind the cartoon one. I, I prefer the Jim Carrey one, but that's because I'm a big sucker for like sets and props and stuff. Yeah, well, I mean, I think like visually that one's really fun. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's just, it scared me as a kid like, like, and his in your face. You know, he makes all those scary faces. There is a regular at the dog park, a little puppy named Ziggy. And he, we all call him Grinch Toes because he's got- I love Grinchy Toes. He's got like the most insane case of Grinchy Toes I've ever seen my life. And oh my God. I'm always. I'm always, you know, it looks like he's got little carpet tufts just sticking out of his feet yeah they like curl up oh my god oh my god anytime i see him though i think about the grinch so i actually also think of

the grinch see what i'm saying like i wonder can we ask everybody like how often do you think about the grinch everyone's going to be like never you fucking weird though only when you bring it up once a year at christmas time and then m forgets about it again you must have said at some point like oh i love the grinch but it was so in passing i didn't even catch it and i think it's also like I always put it in the newsletter and to me it's become a bit because every year for like five years now I've put it in the newsletter as like my recommended film and just is always like I know what to put but it's not like you and I like we like I get the newsletter and I skim through it but I don't like pay attention to whatever your annual recommendation for the Christmas

movie is sure so like I don't know it wouldn't probably not have crossed your mind so yeah so it's not you it's fine that's your favorite movie good to know the favorite movie or favorite Christmas movie. I would say favorite Christmas movie. It's a classic. Yeah, I would say favorite Christmas movie. Yeah. Nice. Thank you so much for asking the important questions when you're dressed as a fucking used condom wrapper. You know, everyone deserves a soapbox. That's beautiful. So is that why you drink? That is why I drink. Okay. Great. Because I've been deciding to be more vocal about my love for the Grinch. That's an important point on your journey, I think. Thank you. I really feels like it. Is there any other updates?

Anything how's tour going? Anything you would like to share with the class? By the time this comes out, tour is over. I'm sleeping. Actually, I'm going to a friend's wedding in Hawaii, so I'm like... Ooh, fun. Zip-z-zuming away for a bit. What was I going to say?

How many more shows you have left on your tour currently? One. As we speak. Oh, wow. Okay. How are you feeling about it? Oh, I'm so amped. We were actually going to do a costume thing.

And then today my brother called me and goes, I don't think I'm up for it. And I was like, oh, thank God. He can have my costume. Oh my God. Wait. I should please. We, okay, let me think about this because I could be very fun. Do you want me to overdone it to you?

Can you imagine you ship that to me? I'm like, all I have to do is order a Frankenstein costume on DoorDash, I guess. And then I'll get what I'm looking for. If you decide last minute you want it, I will send it to you because I certainly don't want it. You know what's too funny too is, or will be so funny is that this comes out after that show. so one would be like, I don't understand like what's the joke and then like a week later it would all come to fruition

So you know the I just had lunch with someone yesterday and they were like Oh, are you doing anything for Halloween? Maybe we can like Hang out at your place and like feed Give out candy. Feed the children of the neighborhood. And I was like, oh yeah, I have a I'm getting a costume tomorrow morning. I'll be Frankenstein

And now you're not going to be on a fucking registry Like the no for real the parents are going to be like Okay noted that house is skipping is skipped every year. Let me feed you as I'm dressed in a car. Yeah. Oh, the children are not here to be fed. Oh, my God.

Anyway, so I got to get another costume. It's basically what I'm saying to you. Do you, though? And Hank is dress is nothing. This all came for, it is all his fault, actually. Actually, if only you'd never become a dog parent, then you would not be dressed as a silly condom. You said it.

Okay, so. My life would be so much sadder. I do have a story for you. I am going to take this thing off because fuck this. I think it's time. For you, for your own sake. Okay. More Dracula music, please.

And I'm going to save your eyes. Hang on. I wish I kind of want to watch. I kind of don't want to watch. Okay. That was an experience for all of us. Okay. What did you want?

Oh, yeah. There it is. I do. I really wish I could get the purple behind me all the way. But then that would require me holding it. Oh, I was like, it looks good like that. Oh, you're holding it up.

Yeah, instead I can just kind of like, ah, nope. Oh, well, it's not bad. It's a half and half. I'm a child of the light and the dark, so. Wow, that's powerful. Thank you. Okay. Maybe I'll do this, so it's a little spookier.

I don't know what I'm doing. I feel like you're acting a lot like me today. Just like kind of making thumping noises with like mysterious equipment and like saying, my glasses and like i mean it all just i do have an interesting energy today and i don't really know what's going on um i mean you're just you were dressed as a condom for 15 minutes that's probably what's going on i know it that was that was a big time in my day um and i i think i have therapy later so that'll be something i probably talk thank god i recently went through my entire closet everybody and i first of all round of applause for me thank you so much second of all

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depending on how long the topic is or how extensive it is. I do about 612 hours worth of researching. Then I take all those notes and break it down. I usually start a very long page document and try to get it all whittled down to like one succinct page. Yeah, I've been witnessed. I've been privy to this process and it is like it's its own. It feels like psychosis.

It looks like psychosis. I literally keep a score at the end of each of my documents if you were never like get my computer and look at each document you would see i always put the number of how many pages i started at at the bottom because i i always am curious right it's usually around like 150 which is crazy um like a 150 and then and then and then em'll put it in like size like what size font eight eight size eight like just to give you an idea on google docs the the standard is 11 so then m goes size eight and then starts like whittling bit by bit like a fucking Michelangelo, you know, it's something. It really is.

Anyway, I say, I appreciate your kind of words. I say all that, though, to say this was interesting because all of this is, this is probably the fastest I've ever done notes. I got all this from one article on Medium. Oh. I didn't find a lot more than this. This article was the most extensive one. I was like, well, I'm just going to rock with this then. So I say that in case you want to go look at the article yourself it is called american ghosts that is the name of the article and i don't know if you recall christine um but for our Halloween episode i asked if you had a Halloween wish again and um do you remember what you said about what what kind of story you would like not even a little bit okay so you asked for a story where i don't even remember how you phrased

it but you said something i'm sure it was very smart it was uh it was something along the lines of like a ghost roommate like living amongst a ghost oh yeah like having one in your house okay yeah yeah yeah like living with them yes side by side i remember it was smart it was very smart i didn't i yelled defensively at nobody but myself yeah i i never thought it was stupid at all so i do remember kind of laughing in your face when you said though because i was like oh how am i going to search that yeah you were like thank you for that vaguest fucking thing in the world and I said you were so welcome. Honestly, if I could go back in time and cover a story for your Halloween wish, I would have done that one where the people just lived amongst that

like polter guys who like threw knives and rocks at them. Remember that? Oh yeah. Yes. Like rocks would just fall from the ceiling and then like people started coming in and they lived there for like four years with a baby. They were like whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's the story I would have loved to cover for you. But I already did it. So, um, but I requested the topic after you already covered it. So, oops, my bad. Just know that that's in a category world. That's my favorite one in the category so far. Oh, okay.

This story literally was so underrepresented that it doesn't even have like a name, a title. So I'm just going to call it by its street, which seemed, that's what this article did. This is the-go-by-the-street name. 6304 Barrel Road Haunting. The barrel. Okay, now is this a barrel like with bourbon in it or is- No, barrel like the old name. Like the name.

Okay, so that's so fun, though, because I like that. Because that's a name that gets me every time I'm like barrel, like a barrel. We've done that. We've had this conversation. But I'm fully with you. The barrel haunting. I like it. If someone casually told me, oh, I'm on Barrel Road, there's only one barrel I'm looking for.

For real. And, okay, Barrel Road haunting sounds really good. Like, it sounds like, or the haunting at Barrel Road. Hunting on Barrel Road. Like, come on. Now, Christine. Now, Christine. You know what you're doing.

okay I don't but thanks this is an Alexandria Virginia so my neck of the woods if you give me an hour and this was in 1981 and this the main story

is of a couple named Gary and Esperanza who went by Epi I love that Gary you really you moved up with the on the what do you say you climbed the ranks in some way yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah

yeah if your name's gary you better hope you find an Esperanza to balance you out because yeah or something that like rhymes with gary to make it just like quaint and fun but nothing in between that's true so her she went by epi um and they were in their 20s married couple and they uh decided that they were going to move into this house together and their friend bruce was moving in with them so it's epi gary and bruce and gary was a furniture salesman he He was previously married, which does come up later. He was, yeah, he's previously married. And they, as soon as they move in, things feel a little off for them. They all notice that they're a little clumsy, that they're, like, they're dropping things a lot. Things are spilling or falling over, and I think they kept blaming themselves. It's unclear to me if those things were actually being knocked off the counter by themselves or like someone was pushing them or that they're like, they had some sort of vertico situation.

right sometimes i feel like this happens where i'll like lean something and like a few days later it'll fall and i'll be like oh that's probably just because i leaned it funny but it is a little creepy because i'm like it's been like there for three days you know what i mean like so maybe it's stuff like that where you're like oh i'm sure i just leaned it funny or like set it too close to the edge of the counter yeah especially if you just moved into a place i feel like i don't know enough yet to be like oh to go to avoid the corner where your hip's going to get fucking bruised every time you walk into the kitchen. Yeah. Yeah. Another

big thing that happened as they were moving in or as soon as they moved in, excuse me, was that their dishes would break all the time. Oh, that's weird. Yeah. Which like Unless it's Bruce and he just like has a little bit of a strong hand with his fork or something. He just keeps swinging it into the sink when he's washing it too hard. He's like, is this how it works?

They also were all having issues with sleep, Epi, and particular was having so many bad dreams that she was staying up at night, which I'm sure adds to her probable, I would imagine like the feeling of being crazy because you're like, I can't even sleep. The couple joked around very early on that perhaps they had a ghost in the house. Oh, that's always a red flag, because it's true. Like, ha ha ha, ha, ha, ha. But Bruce, he was a skeptic and he did not believe the couple. he did not really consider this place on me he was just like we're all excusing the fact that we're apparently messes over here um in fact later on epi would she would wonder if the energy wasn't i hope i'm saying this right oricha which is she was i guess cuban and in cuban culture um and oricha is a an unsolved spirit who attaches to vulnerable people so oh wow okay so like

unfinished business type thing maybe my the way I understood it it's truly just that definition in the article my so unevolved spirits is like just I wouldn't imagine just like a massive energy that just attaches oh univolved oh okay okay I might have said something different backs unevolved spirits who attach to vulnerable gotcha okay okay okay yikes which it feels like it's almost just kind of like a cluster of energy trying to find someone to latch onto right that got like yeah like a tumbleweed of like an evil tumble You get it? You get what I'm saying? A hundred percent. Not to totally whitewash orichas, but it's for sure just an evil tumbleweed. Hey, I'll explain this a little better. Hold on,

everybody. And just taught me the word and here I go. I will say evil tumbleweed does make the most sense to my brain. So, I mean, it must be some type of spirit. If it's not an or reacher and something else yeah and uh that was just her first thought was like i i wonder if that's what it is because something's going on here a neighbor ends up going up to bruce when he i think he's like outside in the yard or something and this neighbor just approaches him and was like hey do you know the history of the house you just moved into beginning of every horror movie yep um and bruce of course he's the perfect person to be approached because he doesn't give a shit and he's like no i don't and I don't care.

But this neighbor said, just so you know, eight years before you guys moved in, she probably didn't say it that way. She went like, yeah, eight years back. I'm trying to think, how would she think? Well, the more you think about it, the probably the weirder it's going to get when it comes out of your mouth.

Four-score seven years ago. Yeah, yeah. Basically what she said is, like, a few years ago, a woman named Mary died by suicide in the house. Oh, no. To give you a heads up now that you live in her old house. And her name was Mary Conlon. I don't know if that matters.

But Mary Tom. I also did these notes two weeks ago. Oh, I love that. Remember when I text you and I was like, hey, I'm ready to record and you're like, I'm in Texas. I was like, that's fantastic. I'm so happy for you. I was literally at Bucky's and I was like, well, this is awkward.

I'm so jealous of you. I should have hopped on and been like, hi, I'm reporting live today. Well, just so you know how long ago it's been since I. I see. That was a long time ago. That was multiple trips ago for, yeah, wow. Yeah, I think I've been on three trips since. man in case anyone's wondering what our recording scheduling is i don't know we don't know it just shows up

sometimes we just make our admin katie miserable because she's like what what's happening and we're like we don't know we're just galivanting i don't know it maybe it'll be more um week by week now that we're both back so hopefully i feel like holidays like quiet quieter time for us usually because yeah no touring well so okay so she says hey bruce just so you know a woman died in there um she goes on to say it was right before Halloween. I think the article said literally, like, the day before Halloween. Oh, okay. She hanged herself in the basement.

Shit. And Bruce, of course, which I think is kind of fucked up. Bruce didn't believe it. Maybe he believed that someone died by suicide, but he didn't fall for any, like, potential haunting. Right. He was like, okay, like, that's sad. Maybe he was like, that's sad, but irrelevant to us. And I have to hope that that's how we thought because the way that the article kind of made

it sound was like he just didn't believe any of this and that it was yeah or like he like i don't know maybe he was in denial and didn't want to live in a spooky place i don't know maybe he just didn't want to know he's like don't tell me shit like that fair enough and so basically he did not tell uh gary and epi anything no about this conversation that's not fair and i think he was like they already think this place is haunted like i don't want to give them more ammo geez feels like something Allison would do. She'd be like, it does. She's like, I just don't even want to feed into this with you. Yeah, like, I think it's safer that they don't know. Yeah. And honestly, for science, maybe he was like, how about I say nothing and let's see what they come. That's actually a very good

point. And now I'm kind of coming over onto the other side, which is like fascinating. Maybe I would also do that just to see. Yeah. So it's like it's like that TV show we keep referring to where it's like one of us knows and one of us doesn't. Let's see what the other one figures out. Yes. Yes. So the friends they are unaware, the married couple, they're unaware, but they are continually weirdly clumsy around this house. Their dishes are still breaking. They start smelling rotting flesh. I don't, I didn't write this in the notes, but I remember it being mentioned a lot in the article that the rotting flesh smell was coming from like their kitchen drain. Oh, God. Ew. So in my mind, I would have first justified that with like the last people to live here put something disgusting in,

or something died down there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, so I would have justified that early on, but they start smelling really like rotting flesh from down there and not only that but i guess whenever the smell would come out there would also be like smoke that came out of the kitchen drain which i can't just fine um then there started to be sounds in the basement which is where the woman died by suicide oh no maybe it's because the couple believed in ghost or because bruce knew the history and actively ignored the weird activity but things happened noticeably more often to the married couple than to Bruce. So I really do think it could have just been because he just shut it off.

He was like, I don't want to know about that. Yeah. And they were like feeding into that, right? Right. And or maybe they, because they were on high alert about it, they were able, they were clocking more things than he was, you know? Like maybe he was writing stuff off and they were not, yeah. But also, how do you write off smoke and rotting flesh smells in your kitchen?

You know what I'm saying? I mean, you did the rotting flesh part. That's true. I guess it depends on if there's a disposal, but this is like what, the 80s, so probably not. Yeah, I don't know. So this especially, the spirits or the activities seem to focus more around Epi and not Gary.

Although he also believed in the ghost, Epi was kind of the main victim here. She would feel the most nauseous when she would come home from work or whenever she would come from being outside. It's kind of like when you're those stories of the people who are possessed, when they would Oh yeah They would like feel like terrible

And have a horrible personality And they were kind of being fed off of When they're at home But then when they would leave They'd be like I feel fucking great Like a different person Yeah Yeah

So that was happening to her The dishes broke around her the most She was still losing sleep From the dreams That she was having And one morning she went down to the kitchen Everyone's still asleep So she's down there by herself

And she walks in And she sees a woman sitting at the table Holding a mug and the woman stared into Epi's eyes and smiled and in this moment Epi fully freezes sleep paralysis way and like a like I can't move kind of vibe and the woman says this is a quote hi Epi

you may think your life is perfect but when you're at work I'm here with your husband what the fuck I like that feels like some morey shit like some Jerry Springer Literally get the cameras in now Holy shit TLC Look out Bravo So she's frozen This fucking person who should not be in her house

Is sitting at her table holding her mug and smiling Yuck and then saying this shit about like I'm at home with your husband What the fuck? And then the walls begin to breathe And they slowly fade into blackness Until there's nothing but complete blackness Behind this woman

She's a fucking showman Huh? She's like let me do a little performance are for you. I know, exactly. And in this moment, Epi's paralysis breaks and all of a sudden, she just full-blown lunges up this woman. Oh my God, so she's actually

awake, like, she was like walking around. Like, she wasn't like dreaming this. Well, so then she felt something yank on her arm. Oh. And she woke up to Gary holding her down in the midst of her having an intense full-body dream. So you clock that.

Yuck. I have goosebumps. That's gross but epi certainly remembered the stream and i mean she was in the middle of like you know what good for her she was trying to beat that girl's ass she was like seriously out of my house um but you know that infuriating moment where you lunge and then they disappear and it's like well fuck me now i look like an idiot you know i want to hear you i'm going to repeat it back to you you know when you lunge and then she disappears No. But you know, okay, let me rephrase that. You know, when you're watching a movie and it's like, oh, I'm going to get that and it like disappears or they like whoosh somewhere else or they have some sort of power or whatever. And it's like, you can't catch them. And it's, I don't know. Maybe I'm just. No, it was just funny how you said it. It's like, you know when you're like beating her ass and then all this is not a real person. And I'm like. Isn't that frustrating? Isn't that frustrating? as I'm putting the straight jacket on you.

Yeah, girl, I know. Yes, totally evolved in there. I feel like that's something you're going to say when they put you in the padded walls later. You know, she just disappeared. I know, I know. Let's put on your grippy socks. I know.

Yep, yep, don't worry about it. So it was after that night. I mean, that was a pretty intense dream. I would be terrified of that dream. Oh, terrible. And I mean, it's like it introduced itself to you. Like, I don't like that. It was after this night that the activity picked up

and by summer the ghosts were like really, here they oh it feels like it like started a open something that dream you know uh yeah and I don't know if it was because I don't know if it was because the dreams got that intense and now they're like

finally like close enough to her or if it was like oh she lunged like we're all fighting now right right like is it was that the trigger to like make it all which like what do you think is going to happen when you're going to go saying I'm with your husband well that's probably what they wanted they probably wanted her to react to that now they can be

like, aha, it's on, you know, like baiting her. Yeah, you know what, maybe. Rage baiting her. It worked. That's sad. And so she heard the whole house. They heard sounds all over the place for no reason. There were obvious footsteps when all of them were not upstairs.

Constant breaking dishes. The smoke came out of nowhere in the kitchen all the time, and it still reeked of rotting flesh all the time. Up until this point, Bruce was in denial that anything could be here, because he was like, I don't want to know anything about this. Sure. But then one day, Epi saw that her locked car had moved itself in the driveway. What?

It had picked itself up and put itself in a way in the driveway where it was now blocking the driveway in a way where they could not get out if they wanted to. Oh, my God. I was picturing like it moved a foot sideways, but it like literally just totally. It did a three point turn. And it. Holy shit. And he's like, there's no way a woman could have done that.

This must be a ghost. I mean, it parked so perfectly and, you know, females and driving. That's not possible. Yeah, it is weird that that's the thing that tricked him because that's the one I would explain away the most and be like, someone moved the car and I didn't see it happen. Right. I feel like that's the most, like, physical one that could be explained by a person doing it. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, I guess the car, this is a quote, is that the car was aimed squarely at the house as if waiting to crash through the wall. So it's like a threat. Yeah. It feels, yeah. So I think that's when he was like, okay. Gary actually yelled at Bruce about it, thinking that he must have done it to prank them.

Which like, hilarious. I know. And I wonder, I don't know the ins and outs of their dynamic, but I imagine Bruce had been telling them the whole time, like, it isn't real, it isn't real. And so then when this car thing happened and it feels like a direct threat, Gary's like, well, you've, like, you obviously don't believe in those shit. So like, you did this to us. Fucking explain yourself then.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Meanwhile. It is about time. He explains himself, frankly. If he's still saying this isn't real, you know what I mean? Yeah. And so this was the beginning of a rift for them where like, Gary was like, you did it.

Oh, this is how it happens. It feels like this is how it always goes. And it does feel like that with, with older guys. I feel like, the men always get violent and angry with each other. And the women always kind of get into this weird lull where they don't know what's happening. And they almost get like victimized in other ways. like dreams and that kind of thing yeah oh little little so epi decided to investigate and eventually she was able to figure out mary's death and so she which like i guess it probably

wasn't that hard of investigation just go knock on the neighbor's door no oh okay to in his defense currently i don't think she knew he knew either i think it was i think she was about to like give them breaking news and then bruce us awkwardly go yeah i know okay okay so she finds out also on her own okay yeah and they did use the word investigate i think in the article and in hindsight i'm like that chatty little fucking neighbor probably just told her you know yeah i know but i would i would be like oh i've investigated the situation so i get it detective epi on the case yeah i mean maybe she went to the library that takes a whole trip and you know yeah exactly i mean it was the 80s i don't it's not like she could just give it a goog you know perfection give it a goog so she was able to figure

out who Mary was, that Mary died after a previous suicide attempt eight weeks before. So this was not her first attempt. No. And after she passed, her husband actually stayed in the house, remarried, and it happened to be someone who was 10 years younger than Mary was. Oh, geez. And in that moment, because remember I told you earlier that Gary had been married in the past. Yes. So I guess in this moment, Epi had a personal moment

of empathy for Mary. I can't imagine being a ghost and having to live in the house that you planned on having your whole life with your husband. And now he's having this life in this house with somebody else and you just have to watch it

because you're stuck here. Yeah. So that gave her a little bit of I don't know, warmth, compassion for Mary's ghost that was potentially haunting them and she decided well mary has never done anything harmful to us um and so she can stay and she basically said as long as you stop breaking things you can stay okay all right i guess that's a good boundary like dishes are getting expensive bitch like figure it

right for real and with again no amazon no tar like you got to go to a store and buy that forget it exactly it's like the dishes are expensive the gas to get the dishes are expensive it's a lot of work So after accepting her, bringing her into the fold, the hauntings actually became less scary and more silly. She's like, actually, I just wanted to be a friend the whole time. I'm so glad we're bonding because I'm actually just a goober. Yeah, I can't wait for you to see my real personality. What the fuck?

So I guess now it's more like balloons popping. Papers were floating around. Small items would fall, but nothing would break. I feel like we were like, ha-ha, hey, girl yeah exactly i'd be like thanks honestly and this is for your halloween wish someone just living amongst the ghosts and i i feel like if i had to experience that and i came to terms with this like this girl who was like she just was depressed and like we're all going through stuff and we get it she lives here with us like i just pour her like like a red wine every night just be like sit on this babe you know

sit down like you deserve a break yeah yeah 100 so in my mind touching in my mind that's what things are Or, like, you know how she's living with her husband and another man? I feel like she would, like, Jim Halpert to, like, nothing and go, girl, men, am I right? You know? Please. You know, when you're, like, gossiping and then she disappears? You know what?

You're just, like, lunging at her? You know how that happens? You know, over that first glass, they had to go, girl, I'm so sorry. I jumped you. Oh, my God. And, like, also, like, I'm sorry I was flirting with your husband this whole time. Yeah, that was crazy. He was really into it, though, so.

Awkward. The, I do wonder, no, I feels like they never resolved that first conflict. That's what I wonder. I'm like, are they ever going to talk about that? No? I guess not. Maybe when she gets a Ouija board or something, but. All right. Fine. So after coming to this truce, uh, the, the confirmation of the hauntings existing, uh, kind of leaked because the couple, they were like, let's figure out more information here. Um, they ended up reaching out to the American Institute of Parapsychology. And there was a guy there named Dr. McLennan, and he was very excited to help.

He actually became a regular at the house, and he was constantly there to, like, surveil what was going on and observe. He's like, I'm ready to constantly be at your house. Here I come. He's like, that's not quite what I asked. Give me an address. I'm here now. Give me a fucking key, actually, because I'm going to be here all the time. He really was.

He was there a lot. And for not every day, but he made a lot of appointments at home calls. I guess throughout for months. Wow, okay. And he witnessed no activity. What? Sorry, that was so loud. Wow.

The housemates claimed that there were many experiences each month, but Dr. McLennan noticed that they would attribute a lot of those to like random instances that could have totally not been paramount. Maybe they were, but like, you know, something falls and it could have been a win draft and nobody is even considering that. sure okay so dr mclennon's like i hear you and i but i'm here a lot and i haven't seen anything and the couple basically wondered if dr mclennon um if he if he never witnessed anything because mary didn't want to be observed like that that was their next justification of like right

well she is here but when he's around all of a sudden she's tight-lipped which i feel like we hear in some of these stories like that oh the ghost just act differently when they're being like filmed or like they don't come out you know yeah so after her or they i guess they thought that maybe mary was upset with them ever calling somebody in um after dr mclennan's visit they kind of got a confirmation i guess after this big visit where he said well nothing's going on right it's it seems like that's when mary maybe showed truer colors again and maybe they were onto something with her being upset that she was being studied Oh, she's like, I thought we're friends.

Because then the dishes started rattling in the sink again, which hadn't happened since their truce. The dark smoke reappeared. And to me, it feels like it was as if their like little handshake agreement was off now. Had been violated, yes, and she's like, no more. Okay. Yeah. So the couple overlooked it and they decided instead, we're going to do a seance.

Interesting choice. Okay. I guess that was Dr. McClendon's suggestion of like, I'm not seeing anything, but maybe have a seance and see if something else comes down. Maybe why don't you have a seance? That'll help. Why you really ruffles and pothers? Thanks.

And I'm not going to be there, I assume, or is he there? I think he's there. I don't, I'm not sure. I think he was there. He probably is there. Who am I kidding? Of course he's there. If it was his suggestion and he's a new researcher at an institute, I'm sure he wants to

be there. He probably, and he really keeps showing up to find this ghost. Like, he really wants it to be real. Yeah. Maybe Mary just hates him. You know what I'm saying? I mean, I would hate him if he was just, like, constantly barging into my home, you know, to, like, look for me. God. So they do the seance. After the seance, there is noticeably less activity.

And nine months in to having lived there, this is all within nine months, apparently. Bruce moves out and a new housemate moved in named Cindy. She was not a fan of Mary's at all. Uh-oh. Mary just can't catch a break with these tenants. She's like, I'm stuck here. You can leave if you don't like it. Yeah, that's the problem.

Like, I'm like, here, ride or die. You got to make it work, not me. Well, so Cindy pretty much immediately was like, there's a woman in my window. Like, I hate this. Please make it stop. I'm not having this. There's a woman in my window. Oh, yeah, did we not tell you about me?

Oops. She loves the view from up there. So Cindy claimed that there was a woman in her window multiple times and would describe of the woman, and it happened to look exactly like the woman from Epi's dream. And you know, Epi's... She's in the window. Oh, no. All of a sudden, I feel like Epi was like, I kind of get why Bruce didn't say shit to me, because now I don't want to say anything to this woman.

I agree with you. I agree with you. I think it's like, oh, how the turntables, you know? How the turntables, that's right. So, Hallow weekend, 1981. Oh, what a time. This is now, I mean, this is their first Halloween here, and they have a literal fucking ghost. and the Alexandria Journal actually did a fluff piece

on their house for Spooky Season, which is fun. Okay, that's fun. So other people know about it and everything seems lighthearted enough. Although I guess Cindy knows because she opened up the Alexandria Journal that day, I bet, and was like, what?

Well, that makes sense. Yeah, Cindy was probably like, Jesus Christ, okay, that explains a lot. Well, eventually she moves out and then two new housemates move in together. It's two guys named Joe and Evans with an S. Okay. And their dogs.

They all move into the house. So it's now a fucking zoo, I guess, there. I love that this couple's like, actually, let's bring in more animals and people. Instead of, like, getting rid of one person, let's add four more beings to the house. At this point, I'd be like, Mary, you pay part of the rent. And then it can just be the two of us. During this time, the activity was very minimal. And I remember in the article, it said something like Joe and Evans, I think, were younger.

It became a bit of a party pad. And so I think no one was paying attention if there was, like, loud music and people come in and out all the time. time. I think it just, you know, nothing was really going on. I'd say that way for many months, but then it picked up again and this time it felt very threatening. One time, Epi fell down the stairs and swore that the rug had been pulled out from under her. Oh, no. She's probably like, why are all these fucking frat guys in my house all of a sudden? Yeah, actually, all of this sounds really bad. I would probably, I mean, maybe not push someone down the stairs. That's a little much but like i get at that i don't know i'd knock a few glasses and plates over yeah and you know

you know if they know that this is a haunted house and there's a bunch of like young guys drinking someone probably said something offensive about her i mean like you know those places haunted by there's not a chance you know something stupid the world that that's not true yeah i agree with you yeah it's 100% someone who would buy a condom costume instead of a frankenstein costume was For sure. And Mary could smell it. And she was like, get out of my house. And like to comment and then like to think like, oh, she died by suicide.

Who knows what kind of comments that was all about. Yeah. Especially in the 80s. Yeah. Recipe for disaster. Yeah. So another time that it felt threatening was that in the shower. Well, this is a bad start.

Yeah. I was like, what? I haven't read these notes in two weeks. And I was like, what am I about to say? In the shower. Her, the bathroom door opened by itself. and she had to, like, lean out of the shower to push it closed. The door opened again.

She had to lean out and push it closed. And then it kept happening. So, like, your whole showers run, first of all. Water all over for. You can never get perfectly warm, and that sucks. And it just kept happening, but it just felt very menacing. And the way that Epi described it was like, it was like, this is the first time she's ever interacted with me when I'm, like, naked and vulnerable.

Those were the words, naked and vulnerable. Yeah, I don't love that. I really don't. um then the kitchen kept having the rotten smell again oh no one night joe and evans were home alone and they heard a noise that was apparently was a quote as loud as a bullhorn and then the other guy said like a bull or an elephant in a tin can factory that's as loud what a specific way to say that one of them's moving on up to the alexandria journal anything now that that kind of fucking vocabulary. Wow.

Absolutely. Yeah. But they were by themselves and all of a sudden they heard this crazy fucking sound. And despite being, um, despite being alone, they swore by it. And I'm sure Epi and Gary were like, we get it. We believe it. Yeah. Welcome to, welcome to our lives. Welcome. Um, what people started thinking was really weird, especially like their surrounding friends. Uh, Epi and Gary had lived with this thing for like over a year now, I think. And they had always seemed fine with it.

But out of nowhere, even though they're in their 20s, Epi made a will. Uh-oh. So, I mean, the fact that it's making all these sounds that sound like a bowl and a something factory. The door keeps opening and closing while they're in the shower. Maybe someone got pushed down the stairs. Like, it just feels menacing now. Yeah, yeah. And the fact that Epi wrote a will makes me think that there were a lot more things that happened that we don't know about.

Right. right. Especially if she had that like really chilling dream where she like encountered that woman and had an actual conversation with her. Like who knows if another one happened or. Yeah. Or if she lunged again, you know, I don't know. It also makes you wonder like was Mary ever nice to her or was that a ploy to get closer? Right. Good point. Like was it a phony. Oh, yuck. That's creepy. I didn't even thought of that. Like she showed her true colors in the dream and then was playing nice to get closer so she could maybe feed off her. friends, but I'll still be flirting with your husband while you're at work, whatever that means. Yeah, and then try to push you down the stairs. I don't know. Ugh. Um, then one night, they all go out to a party, and when they come back, oh, my God, I forgot about this part. Oh, Christine. Oh, oh, no. This is why, okay. Okay. I'm touching on your your turf now. Oh, okay. Um, this is, I think, uh, a first, for me on my end um okay they all go out to a party and they came back home and went to sleep

and a fire started in the kitchen instead of it smoking a fire finally ignited out of the sink i guess out of the sink we don't know where the fire started but it was somewhere in the kitchen okay the fire grew out of control almost instantly and joe and evans were able to escape no but epi and gary did not survive okay so you hear living among the ghosts and you you bring me hey this is the first story where a ghost murdered someone yeah i mean for a while they lived with them that is actually i mean of all the scary stories that's fucking terrible and terrifying So you really nailed it with that I remember thinking for Halloween

This was going to be like a different story That's a creepy one, I'm not going to lie Holy shit she died, they died both of them Yeah yeah And when fire officials This is one of those sad fun facts What the fuck? When fire officials arrived

The shift commander on duty That responded to the call was the same one who came to the house When Mary died And even responded that now both deaths that have happened in this house happened on a Sunday before dawn. Oh my God. So it's so much, I wonder if it was like Mary's anniversary or something like that. Well, it wasn't Halloween, was it that they, oh, right.

It wasn't, yeah. It wasn't. No. That is just beyond, dude. What? Yeah. I don't think I ever knew there was a story like that. I mean, that's probably why there's not much on it because like, yeah.

Well, it's over. Who wants to report, you know, quote factually about like a ghost murdering somebody? Zach Begans does, for sure. And I think he probably just doesn't even know about it. But it's like once they die, there's not much else you can do at this point. It's like the story is like kind of over unless something happens with the next people who live there. And I wonder how they even got the information about Epi and Gary's haunts before this. Because usually you would think like, let's go back in time and see how this all played out or why we think a ghost is in

involved yeah um i wonder if like the bruce or one of them told the story i don't know yeah i wonder if it was like a compilation of everybody else's memories of them yeah yeah like oh this happened and this happened yeah oh and then there was that article about the house right yeah so there was that too yeah yeah so the fire was ultimately deemed an accident however it was mentioned that it began directly above where mary was found So it was right where she passed. It was on the same, it was on a Sunday before dawn, just like when Mary died, and the same shift commander came out to the house for both calls, which is just an extra eerie. It's just so chilling.

Yeah, it's eerie. It's like, whether it's a coincidence or not, like, it's very eerie. Yeah. They, after they passed, newspapers ran with articles titled, Ghosts suspected as cause of fire that killed two people. So, like, it was actually... you know, headlined, or I don't know about headline, but it was written it with the thought in mind that like a ghost killed these people.

It was already like part of the story, yeah. Wow. This is these headlines that, I'm saying headlines, I don't know what the right word is, but the titles of these articles, saying that the ghost might have been the murderer. This makes this case or this story

one of the few times that something paranormal is suspected as a cause of death in someone's stuff. I mean, isn't that fucking crazy? It is because sometimes we talk about that where we're like, oh, do you think, think like if a night like remember we've talked about when people's like tools or or knives or other weapons like start moving and you hear those stories where like a knife flies right past your head and sticks into the wall and you and I've always wondered like is it because they can't kill you

like is there some sort of universal law where they like can't exactly kill you or is it like they're playing with you or is it like but this is like yeah this is weirdly feels chilling i mean and the fact that like maybe they could escape but they didn't and so maybe it was oh oh it's awful it's awful i mean like the fact that joe and evans i mean they they said that by the time they woke up the house was fully on fire like there was no going back in helping anybody wow um that's so crazy so it could have been mary that ended up killing them we don't know but um there and there could have been other spirits on the property or to be honest it could have been an electrical problem

or like a it sounds like I don't know enough about if they ever called the plumber for the sink or if they ever called an electrician to see if there was any like old loose wires or something I mean I like to think that that one guy who was like trying to find evidence at least like dug into some of that you know yeah I hope he did I hope he did but um because it could have just been I mean there of the closest thing we ever had to a house fire knock on whether this is all we ever have to deal with but when I was a kid it actually felt very eerie to me. I remember waking up in the middle that I am telling myself I needed to go stand in the hallway. And truly, if there were, if there was a ring camera to like catch this, it would have looked so fucking eerie because I just stood in the hallway and just looked at a light for like five minutes and then it caught on fucking fire. And dude, isn't that, like I just had a hunch and as I don't know, now that I hear it again, I'm thinking maybe you set it on fire by staring at it. On a ring camera, it would have looked like I telepathically started a fire for sure.

pyrokinesis. But I remember just feeling like I needed to be awake, feeling like I needed to go in the hallway and just look at the light and it just ignited. And I immediately turned the light switch off. I was like a kid. I didn't know what to do. And I just screamed, mom, and the firehouse came.

And basically there was some random electrical wiring faulty thing that happened in the attic. Dude, somebody fucking woke you up. I know, I know. What do you think it was? Or do you think it was just your own, like, intuition? I mean, there's always the theory that it was. future meet there is all right i do like that theory because that feels like right now you could be

like oh yeah i better go back and tell myself i do that all the time i'm like in case in case this is the moment you need to wake up and go look at the way sometimes i think about like a moment in time and i'm like oh let me just like pop in real quick and say like hey yeah i um so it could have been that could have been my grandpa there was also a lot of ghosts there was like i told you there's like that really creepy like on the prop yeah yeah oh yes there was that one ghost in my bedroom he might I know something was going to happen. But it was very, I should have not been awake. I should have not been out of my room.

Why would I look at that light the way that I did? I mean, that's just fucking creepy, dude. And your mom finds you out there. Like, I was screamed until she woke up and I was like, get out here. There was a fire. There was a fire. Jesus Christ. And also, like, I turned off the light so quickly.

It didn't really, the ceiling looked a little, like, singed. But, like, there. I mean, thank God. Like, but. I know. The fact that it happened that eerily tells me if I didn't wake up, we would have died. Yeah. Like, there's a.

reason you woke up and did it right away for sure like there's no other way i did i ever tell you my um my fire story i'm sure i did on the podcast but like tell it again for many years i probably haven't told it but when i was young we had uh my parents were divorced also and at my dad's house um we were there well i think one evening a week on a school night and then one night a week on the weekends was like the custody arrangement and on the weekends we were not allowed to like see a friend or like go to a friend's house that was just the arrangement like you're coming to see your dad and stepmom and you're not doing social things like there's no social things and there's no homework so all that shit has to get done at your mom's so we'd like go and be like okay we're here to participate in

whatever like we lose we lose agency here we just show up and we're like okay so that's how it was my whole life. And I never, ever, ever, ever had visited a friend, like, on a Saturday. I had a terrible social life, obviously, because it would be like a Saturday. And I'm like, I'm not allowed to leave my house for, like, I'm not. And so I know, just hang out in the graveyard. Suck. No, it wasn't even the graveyard house. That was a fun house. My dad's house was out in the fucking creepy ass woods. And so then I'm like stuck there. And one day I went over there on a Saturday. And for some reason, It was like, I think he was eighth grade and I said to my, and I was maybe ninth grade and I said to my dad and stepmom, like I was not this ballsy usually, but I was like, I want to go stay over at Renee's house for a sleepover. And they were like, absolutely not.

And for some fucking reason, I like doubled down. I was like, I'm going. You can't stop me. I don't know. We just were like going to have a fun night. And I was like, I'm going. You can't tell me. So finally I wore them down and they dropped me off.

And I remember like we had a really fun sleepover in the next. morning, I slept into like 11 a.m. and I woke up freaking out because I'm like, oh my God, my dad and stepmom were going to kill me. They were going to pick me up at like 6.30 in the morning. And like, you know, so I like wake up and I'm looking at my phone and there's just like nothing on my phone. And I'm like, oh, maybe they forgot about me. So then I'm like, hell yeah. So then we just spend the rest of the day hanging out. And eventually my stepmom calls and I'm like too scared to answer. And she calls again. And I finally pick up as she, she's like, oh, did you hear what happened and I'm like from who I just been here what you forgot I existed I guess did you

did you hear over here that I'm waiting for you yeah where are you and so I'm like okay what happened and she goes oh apparently what happened was in the middle of the night a an electrical fire started in our ceiling on the second floor in a light switch kind of like yours or a light fixture in the hallway outside my bedroom and uh my room was like completely destroyed like my bedroom is destroyed and my dad and stepmom were having their bedroom renovated so they were actually sleeping like it was like a really it's like a short but like a long house so they were at the all the way at the other end in the guest room and um they didn't even notice it they actually woke up when a fire truck drove up the driveway or my dad apparently stood up and looked out the window in his bathrobe and said why is there

a greyhound bus in our driveway like he literally didn't know what was going on my brother is like a sleep I said, yes, oh no, he was at Latin convention. That's what saved him. He was at Latin convention. I've never heard anything more fucking Alexander Schaefer than- So nerdy, I know. And then they basically, the whole second floor had to be, it was like completely destroyed. And they were like, yeah, if you hadn't been, you probably wouldn't been in the fire,

but smoke inhalation probably would have got you. And I'm like, what the fuck? And so, anyway, that's my story of also the time that I escaped the fire somehow. But it was the one night. and I remember going like I won't I won't give up on this like this is a hill I will die on because I think I was going to I'm surprised that Renee has not over romanticized that I will not give up on us I you know what I feel like maybe she doesn't even remember you know those stories where she remembers everything she probably does she probably remembers more than I do um question were

the renovations the reason or no it was like no they their room was like downstairs and they were just like redoing like the bathroom or something down there interesting and then on the second floor like we just had our bedrooms up there that's it in a bathroom and for some reason that fixture up there um it's like an old ass house too and it like started in the attic and my step-mom was like oh my furs and i was like oh christ um rene can i live with you anyway i don't think i might have known if you told that story it was so long it was probably like the first week of the podcast because i was like let's all tell our scary stories m and then we probably never told them again but i feel like that's so weird that we both have a a light

right outside of our bedroom in the hallway. Yeah, that's true. I never, yeah, I didn't put it together. Yeah, I forgot my brothers at Latin convention. That makes me laugh. It makes everybody laugh, don't worry. So, okay, the last thing I'm going to say about this haunting, because I thought we would need a pallet cleanse, right?

I didn't know we would do it ourselves because we're that good. But before Mary lived here, there actually was another person who lived here that was super interesting. His name was Lieutenant Colonel William Jordan, or Will Jordan. And he was a test patient for MK. Ultra. What? oh my god and after his time being tested on hang on my dog learned to hit the bells and he wants to go pee we'll have to do that after this um he's so smart hang on puppy he's so smart one second

you can wait okay um so yeah he was a test patient for mk ultra and after his time being tested on he suffered a lot like his after his time being there he was having like grandma epilepsy He potentially had reproductive issues that was hurting his wife. And he actually lived in this house, it's Alexandria. He wanted to be close to D.C. so he could try to get medical follow-ups for patients. He was like protesting and trying to campaign for M.K. Ultra patients to, like, have their voices heard. Anyway, so some like to attribute the added dark energy of the hauntings to like whatever he was dealing with.

But I thought it was interesting. That's fascinating. and also like to think the neighbor was like hey you want to know what goes what happened at this house and bruce is like fuck no and it's like yo even if you don't believe in ghosts like there's so much interesting shit that happened like why would you be an asshole about it they could have been like the guy who created pussy rolls lived here and i'm like shit that's awesome you know what can you imagine oh christina i need to talk speaking this Halloween this is the episode to do it i discovered a new old people candy and i'm obsessed you know i love old people candy mary jane's i don't know that one

it takes my breath away i literally it should be getting here today i literally it's not a marijuana situation right it's that old that it's not reference to marijuana it's hang on puppy he's got to um it's peanut butter taffy which sounds gross i hate taffy i can't say taffy too it's basically a peanut potato tutsy roll um okay i feel like i could get into that it was it i was just in florida i was hanging out with my extended family and one of my cousins cousins cousins um was like oh have you ever had Mary Jane's because we were at like one of those old candy shops and she was like just try one and I tried one and I had to circle back and get a whole ass bag and now that bag has been long gone and I can't stop thinking about her and her being Mary Jane and so I literally

bought a like a restaurant store bulk size like no it's literally like a five pound bag a five pound bag you're going to be that weirdo on Halloween dress is a condom oh I'm not sure sharing them. I know, but, like, imagine if you just were, like, that creepy neighbor, you know? No, I give the good candy, but I, that will be my personal bag. Like, that is my now, whenever I'm doing notes, like, I always have, like, a little treat to, like, pick at. That's going to be my new thing for a while. I'm going to look them up real quick.

Hold on. They're so good. And then I also tried a squirrel nut zipper. Forget it. Oh, I know about that band. I thought that was just a band. It's a candy, too. What?

Mm-hmm. Oh, my gosh. It's like vanilla caramel. Are they peanut butter? Or I'm sorry, peanuts in them? I think so. And the zippers? Yeah.

Yeah, it's like caramel, vanilla, and some sort of nut, peanuts, I think. I just love a crunchy candy, crunchy old-timey. Oh, my God, this Mary Jane's are so fun. Oh, I've seen these. They're so good. You know, I never really like clocked the name, I think. I've just seen the little colors. It tastes like Butterfinger, but it's the, it's the, it's the,

texture of a tutsi roll. It's butterfinger tux roll. That sounds good to me. It rocked my shit. Nobody go out and buy them because they're hard to find. If you, if you take them, I'm going to have a problem. How dare you? Everyone just know that I'm eating them and I'm eating good. That's all you got to know. That's all you got to know and don't even question it. Anyway, that is how do you say the haunting of Beryl Road? Oh my gosh. That is quite a story. The MK Ultra is quite a twist. I love that. Yeah. And I, who knows what it means, if anything, but, like, all of these stories back to back in the same house is, like, pretty strange, I think.

I think so. It feels like it has a lot of history either way. All you need is an alien abduction or a cryptid, and then you've got the full my-sitamin, that's why we drink going on there. You're 100% right. And then the fire. And I am aware, yes, I'm a fair. I am aware of the MK Ultra topic and how badly people want me to cover it.

I'm aware, but I'm telling you, just like how I usually do six to 12 hours of notes, Like, that will take me... Hey, remember the 150-page document and made for this show today or whatever? Yeah, it's... That would be a long one. That's a Q and on situation. So...

Yeah. And a lot of government documents. Yeah. And then it's like the dry type of sources. Dry text. Just like watching ghost adventures. I will do it eventually. It's just, uh, I'm very intimidated by that topic.

It's a dozy. Um, will you go let your dog pee? I'm going to go let myself pee. Okay. Well, I'll do like a, well, I'll pee. We'll have a little pee break. Okay. Halloween music.

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Hello, everybody. It is Juniper. Guess what I'm here to talk about everybody. it is smalls and I sound like a big scary ghost because it is Halloween and I can't think of a yumbia treat than smalls in my belly in case you're wondering hey juniper what is smalls well let me tell you besides my favorite snacks oh snack whoopsies I'm a cat meow smalls cat food is protein packed recipes made with preservative free ingredients you'd find any fridge and it is delivered right to your door so it is that simple you can just play and play and play with your very very very very every very furry little feline.

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which is a very, very, very big deal. You will get 60% off your first order, plus free shipping when you head to Smalls.com slash drink. One last time, that's 60% of your first order, plus free shipping when you head to smalls.com slash drink. That was a fun intermission. Thank you. Well, happy Halloween.

mean we went down memory lane together oh and today's a new moon in Libra so yeah it feels like a nice little refresh yeah perf all right hello everyone we're back from intermission um where we realized it's a new moon and we were discussing uh sentimentality and the items that we are keeping and getting rid of et cetera so if you would like to listen to that you can go to our patreon um otherwise i have a crime story for you today i of oh yep hang on wait for it Hang on. Yes. Oh, that's spooky for sure.

No, it is. Where were you on the night of? I mean, now I feel like I'm in an alien ship. Okay, go for it. Yeah, it looks spooky. So here's the thing, though. I didn't remember that it, like, I obviously didn't remember that it was Halloween episode.

My brain is just so out of it these days. I brought a story that is scary. Oh, oh. Okay, go. You look like, you do look like you're in an interrogation right now with like a microphone or something. I was, I'm trying to keep the vibe alive. Anyway, keep going, sorry. The vibe is vibing.

Don't worry about it. I forgot it was Halloween episode. So I brought a story that is scary, but it's just as scary as every other true crime. So it's not a Halloween story, even though I probably also asked you what you wanted for Halloween. I did. What did you say? I don't remember. So it's fine.

Oh, shit. Okay. we'll never know well maybe i wrote it down somewhere and i'll find it in like a month and then at christmas time i'll do it my christmas wish yeah yay it'll be the something about the grinch probably um yeah so okay i apologize i clearly you know what probably knowing me i started a google doc for it and then just like forgot about it um but so that means there is a chance i'll find it and do it I trust you. It'll happen. Okay, so instead, I've brought to you today the murder of Sheila von, oh my gosh, she has quite a name,

Sheila von Weizmack. And, yeah, it's hyphenated and multiple words. I'm hoping I'm saying that right. On August 13, 2014, a taxi driver stopped outside a luxurious resort in Bali, Indonesia. He had just finished dropping off some guests. was about to drive away when two people approached him, presumably guests at the resort, they said, oh, hey, can we put some luggage in the trunk? And he popped the trunk. They said, we're checking out. We'll be right back with the rest of our stuff. He waits 30 minutes,

but they never come back. Oh. And they always warn you at an airport. They always say, if someone leaves unattended luggage, you better fucking call for help. Yeah, that is never a good thing. And so, of course, he starts to feel this, like, actually, you know what? The vibe that I got from, like, researching this is that he wasn't worried necessarily at this point. He was more just, like, ugh, and, like, took the luggage out to be like, I'm just going to give this back to the hotel and be like, tell them I'm leaving. Like, I don't want to wait any longer.

So he basically gets up. He pops the trunk and he finds a suitcase inside. The suitcase is in horrific shape. It is held shut with ducking. tape. It is wrapped in a white bed sheet and there is a red substance oozing out of the suitcase and soaking into this sheet. Oh God. Okay. Hang on. Oh my God. How did you do that? I'm just pressing blue and red a lot. Oh, you're pressing. I was like, is there a police setting? Why would they do that? It's a blue and red light, which is literally the next line they called the fucking police.

It was my way of saying call somebody, we need help. Yes, immediate assistance needed. That was crazy. I really thought it was like really good. I thought it was an effect on the remote. And I went, so it has police effect. That feels like a dangerous thing to put on like a consumer item. Okay.

So let's see. So he, of course, is horrified. Immediately calls the police literally the next line. And he and you were both right to do that because when the police unwrapped the suitcase, from the bed sheet and duct tape, they found inside a woman's body. This woman was a white middle-aged woman who had been stuffed so tightly into the suitcase

that the duct tape was used to wrap it closed and keep it contained. Her face was bloody and badly bruised, suggesting a violent attack when she was killed. She was transported to the local medical examiner to determine her cause of death while the police began their investigation at the resort and they believed maybe because of the way this suitcase had been dropped off and

everything that this woman was a, um, a guest at the resort. But there was also the possibility, of course, that she was just visiting someone there or maybe that they were just disposed of their resort management, as you can imagine, this feels very white lotus. They were like, um, yeah, let's figure this out and wrap this shit up right away because we don't want like murder news. You know, we don't want to be in the news for, for this. We don't want the vibes to be off. Yeah, the vibes are really important to us here. Do you smell the patchouli we've got going on? Yeah, it's, it's definitely not a luxury resort's first, first order of business to, to, I don't know, to not, I don't know. I've lost my train of thought. No, I get what you're saying. I'm with you. I'm with you. You get it. They're just, there's just a gross, wealthy area, or gross wealthy space that's like, okay, this is kind of in our way. Get the gross stuff out of care. Yeah, let's like sweep up this mess, please. have guests trying to enjoy their stay.

Which I understand as a business you're trying to just keep it. No, for real. And also it's like having seen shows like White Lists, like, well, what are the employees supposed to do? They're just like, I'm here for the job, you know? Like, I don't know. So of course the resort management is like, okay, yes, let's fucking figure this out. And, you know, if the killer remained at large, then like they were in even more trouble.

Tourist community would be threatened. community would be threatened. So they immediately pulled out the passports they keep because the resort office would keep copies of everyone's passports for identity verification and in case of emergencies like this one. And investigators started searching through them. They were looking for a white middle-aged woman who bore any resemblance to the woman in the suitcase

and they finally landed on 62-year-old Sheila von Wiesmak, a tourist from the U.S. who had been staying at the resort for roughly a week. so they asked the resort staff when did you last see Sheila and they said only a few hours ago between two and three in the morning she was in the lobby okay so they're like well let's check so they call her room there's no answer so i'm assuming this is starting to get like slightly panicky yeah suspicious nobody answers so the resort lets them into the room and when they open the room they don't see anybody there but they do see the scene of a violent struggle. There is shattered glass everywhere. There is blood spatter on the bed, the glass. One bit of glass was connected to like a metal handle. So it looked like it had been like a weapon that had been made of like metal and glass, like maybe a bowl or a vase. And the police suspected that that was the murder weapon. So the room was empty. Like I said, and Sheila

remained unaccounted for. So now they're thinking, well, then the odds of her being the one in the suitcase are getting higher and higher, and it seemed likely that she would be confirmed as the victim. But police quickly learned that not only was this a murder investigation, but also a missing person's case, because Sheila was staying at the resort with her 18-year-old daughter, Heather Mack. Shit, okay. Heather had been born in 1996, the daughter of Sheila von Wiesemak, an influential

socialite, and Sheila's husband, acclaimed jazz composer, James Mack. Just like a very influential power couple wealthy type background. She had almost like a fairy tale childhood. She grew up in Oak Park, Illinois, which is a really historical and affluent village outside of Chicago. James had previous marriages and other children, but Heather was his only child with Sheila, and they were extremely close. Her parents doaded on her. They had very high profile careers but they were very attentive and extremely close with her and people who knew the family described Heather as a daddy's girl because she was always very very close with her father the Max loved to travel and they always took her on these faraway destinations to luxurious resorts

and faraway places Heather's life was the envy of all of her friends but when Heather was just 10 years old they went on a vacation to Athens Greece and and her father had a pulmonary embolism. Oh. Yeah, a blood clot in his lungs. And it occurred in their hotel room. Oh, my God. So everyone saw.

Everyone saw. And Sheila and Heather had to witness this helplessly as he died in their hotel room. And Sheila was 10 years old. So this is like scarring beyond belief. James was a composer, a conductor, a producer, a teacher, a chairman, for the music department at Harold Washington College, he was just like a very influential and big persona. He was, he left behind like quite a legacy, especially dying kind of out of the blue. And he also ensured that Sheila and Heather would be financially secure upon his death.

And so he had already prepared, you know, the will and all that. So of course, Heather was deeply devastated and so was Sheila but over time they kind of bonded over their shared grief um as heather grew into a teenager though she started to struggle more with the loss and the trauma of witnessing the loss and she experienced severe depression through high school she began staying out late at parties drinking with her friends um she would skip school she would run away for days at a time sometimes and you know she had access to all this money right so like she's not only participating in this lifestyle she's also like actively able to afford it and fund it for her friends and you know that certainly doesn't help so before long you know she's she's

really getting into trouble she's skipping school she's running away for days at a time and she and her mother their relationship grow very strained. Once Heather even stole Sheila's credit card to book an expensive hotel room in downtown Chicago and she threw a lavish party with her friends and her boyfriend. And Sheila actually saw Heather's photos when they posted them to social media because this was in the social media days. I mean, we've already entered the Facebook era. And she fucking flipped.

Yeah. Which, you know, well, if you do, yeah. You know, it's, yeah. If you upload them to Facebook, it's going to, yeah, it's going to happen. So she called the police to break up the party because these were being posted as the party was going on. So she fucking freaks out and, uh, Sheila's had enough and she has Heather arrested. Oh, Sheila. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. But hang on. There it is. Like, holy shit. We finally have like the perfect set. And it's just in your kitchen. No, I'm serious.

I'm in front of a fucking empty wall. Yours is cool. Okay, so Heather was arrested and Sheila hoped that this would be like a scared straight type thing. Yeah. You know, like maybe she'll be discouraged now from future partying and sneaking out. But surprise, surprise, that's not what happens. Sheila did not like this boyfriend, by the way, Tommy or any of Heather's friends. Tommy was a his name's Tommy Schaefer he was a 21 year old aspiring rapper and musician

he reminded Heather a lot of her father he was a musical artist he was black by the way her mother was white and so um there was like that tension there as well where she lost her father and she had you know and she felt like this disconnect um and i say that because her friend said you know Tommy was so similar to her father there was like that bond there she had with him and he was talented he was dedicated to his art he was very smart he was very handsome um but of course mom did not approve she thought he and the rest of heather's friends enabled heather's drinking and other risky choices so she told her sister and brother debby and bill that heather hung out with some terrible kids quote unquote that was like the word she used for them she was constantly

worrying about heather wondering where she was who she was with when she'd be home if she was safe And she tried finding a therapist for Heather. She tried grounding her. She took away her phone. She just could not figure out a way to help her. And Sheila realized she couldn't make any difference in Heather's life when there was such an emotional distance between them. There was such a rift that she knew, like, I can't reach her from here. So with absolutely no idea what to do, she decided to do to kind of go back in time and do what they always love to do, which was go on a trip.

and she surprised Heather with a two-week vacation in Bali, and Heather was thrilled. So they left on August 4th, but a week later, halfway into the trip, Sheila was dead, and now Heather is missing. Okay. And that is where we find ourselves in the story. Okay, that's very scary. The medical examiner confirmed that the woman discovered in the suitcase was indeed Sheila. It was determined she had been beaten violently to death with some sort of object. She had suffered severe facial injuries and fractures, and her neck was broken.

There was some speculation that Heather might have run away in Bali on another rebellious streak and maybe fallen in with some dangerous people who, like, killed her mom and kidnapped her. Maybe something had happened like that, but the police weren't so sure because the resort, remember where they were staying, was not exactly like a hotbed for crime. Like, this wasn't a thing that happened there. There's petulie. Yeah. It's all that, but julie, you remember. Yes. They spoke to the night clerk who had last seen Sheila alive in the early morning hours before her body was discovered.

And the clerk said, actually, Sheila had come downstairs to the lobby between 2 and 3 a.m. absolutely frantic. Shit. Sheila told the clerk that her teenage daughter was missing. Heather was not in her room and Sheila couldn't find her anywhere at the resort. She'd been looking everywhere. And so while the clerk prepared to report Heather missing, remember, we're in Indonesia, by the way. Like, we're not in the U.S. either. So they're, like, out of the country.

Yeah. And so she's, the clerk is preparing to report her missing when suddenly Heather walks into the lobby. And on her arm is Tommy Schaefer, her boyfriend. What? In Indonesia? Mm-hmm. How do you get there? Okay.

Mommy's credit card. Right. Right. Sheila? fucking flipped fucking flipped as you can imagine I mean

yeah it just blows my mind so Sheila was fucking furious Heather told her Tommy had flown in to surprise her to join the vacation as a surprise

but Sheila did not believe it she was like this is an expensive fucking flight never mind the cost of the resort she accused Heather of stealing her credit card to pay for it and Heather was like, no, he just wants to surprise me. And this argument is escalating.

He wants to surprise me with your money. What? What are you talking about it? It's like saying, no, he wanted to buy me a present of your money. Yeah, but I mean, that's like kind of a thing sometimes, isn't it? Like, I'll just, I'll just use this money. Well, I don't know. Listen, I don't know what it's like to be that way.

So I don't know why I'm trying to pretend. I could see some teenager justifying or thinking that that's justifiable. And it's like, girl. I mean, right. They're like teenagers. It's like fucking Romeo and Juliet. Their frontal lobes aren't foreign yet. They're out of their minds with hormones.

Like, you know, they're making bad choices. And then they have access to all this money. She's gone through like severe trauma. And like, this is just all a hotbed for disaster, I think. And I know because unfortunately it is. And we all know it. Okay. So Sheila was furious.

Heather said, oh, he's just surprising me. And of course, this argument is escalating. Heather's so embarrassed that her mom's like throwing this fit in the lobby and this like everyone's just kind of like staring trying not to stare and finally Sheila and Heather returned to their room on the third floor and Tommy's like all right peace I'm going to the sixth floor that's where my room is and he wild and he goes up to the sixth floor later Heather came back down to the lobby and asked the night clerk if they had any duct tape available okay so when I say ah because she's missing what I should be saying is hmm okay I'm see I'm saying I'm saying I'm saying you had the exact right thought process though which is like oh that's concerning yeah until it starts to be like oh shoot yeah oh shoot but also like oh shoot either way I guess um again hot bed for disaster okay so finally they go and she comes down uh later and remember this was like 3 a.m that this fight took place. So a few hours later is like 6 a.m. You know, it's like, okay, welcome downstairs,

halfway through your trip. You suddenly need a roll of duct tape. Whatever. So none of them, none of them were seen again until Sheila's remains were recovered from that suitcase. And that is sort of like what they pieced together had happened before that. So the police launched a massive search for Heather and Tommy. Heather's passport had been recovered from her room at the resort so she couldn't have left Indonesia. Photos of Heather and Tommy were broadcast by the media, online and on TV. Back in the U.S., imagine this. Sheila's family followed the news of Sheila's violent death and Heather's, like, their niece's

disappearance, you know? Sheila had that brother and sister that she was close with. So they're watching like their own sister's murder case happening on TV and then wondering like where their nieces. I mean, it's all just horrific. Just one day after Sheila's body was discovered on August 13th, the owner of a motel in Bali called the police. And he told them that Tommy and Heather were staying at his motel.

Oh. Honestly, thank God for a source that clear. Amen. And also get this. He not only recognized their photos from the news, but they checked in using their real names and Sheila's credit card. Big dummies. Oh, my God.

Over here. Okay. Well, hey. It makes our job a lot better. And by our job, I mean the police or something. It makes our job to investigate and solve these crimes so much easier. You know, it makes the case easier for others, I guess. That's fair enough, yeah.

But still like, it's a good thing. I'm glad that the pieces kind of fit together. But you would think if you're going to do something like that, you would think you have a plan. But you'd also think, you know, you're teenagers and you're done and you're in love. And nothing good comes of that as far as. I've learned in my life. If I were, if I were on Law & Order, and I played obviously Mariska Hargathe's, you know, partner for life.

And she's ever had anybody else. And Soul Me and Twin Flame, right? Yeah. And we just, in every scene as us just snuggling. She's like electric. Yeah. Ah! I know.

So if I were on an episode, I feel like I would be that one who always said, I love when that happens. And then it really cuts the scene. But it's whenever there is a case where it's like, teenagers use their real name. And then I would just go, I love when that happens. And then the next scene would be us just, just, oh, us and that happens. a shit out of them. It's be like easy. Check. It's easy because then I can get right back to home with Marischco. You know what I mean? That's right. Just back into those arms.

I don't have those strong arms. I can't even think about it. Okay. God, I know. Stop thinking about it. I can't. Put that condom of costume back on. That'll shake you out of it. That'll shake all of us out of it. Oh, God. So he says, okay, Tommy and Heather are staying at my motel. They use their real name. I'm not even that good of a sleuth. They use their real names and their mom's, their dead mom's credit card. Classic. So classic. So Heather and Tommy were asleep in bed when the police arrived to arrest them. And when police asked for their story, they said, we were kidnapped by a violent gang. Okay. And the three of us planned a daring escape, but it went terribly wrong. I hope they said, we planned a daring escape. A daring escape.

I like to think it was like that. You know how sometimes I say Ross dress for less because it makes it funny or that I say the whole thing? Right, right, right. It just reminds me of that. Like, oh, it was a daring escape. You better believe it. I also love that there's no detail.

It's like, just trust me it was daring. Yeah, you don't have to know anything else. That's all I need to give you. Yeah, the three of them planned this, but it went terribly wrong. Sheila was killed. Tommy and Heather took shelter in a motel to hide, unsure of whom they could trust. Okay.

Unfortunately for Heather and Tommy, they weren't aware of exactly how much evidence the police already had on the case or on them in the case, which is, by the way, a lot of fucking evidence including dozens of surveillance cameras

inside and outside the hotel. It's fish in a barrel. And barrel's spelled with a double arm, actually. Fish in a barrel road. And fish in a haunting on barrel road. so they had these dozens of surveillance cameras they went through them and they found a fucking full story on camera so the morning sheila was murdered and i actually have pictures for you the morning sheila was murdered footage showed hether and shila returning to their room on the 3rd floor while tommy went to his room on the 6th then the cameras followed heather as she went up to to tommy's room on the 6th floor and back down the couple went back and forth between their room and that rooms several times and then they were recorded leaving heather's room with a large suitcase

wrapped in a white sheet which appeared identical to the one in the taxi cab perfect and the footage also showed them leaving the resort with the suitcase loading it into the trunk of the taxi then they were captured climbing over a wall to get out of the resort spider man over here okay I mean, literally, I had to look it up because when I watched one of the episodes on this, the footage looked so clear and, like, obvious and stupid that I was like, this must be a reenactment. And it's like, no. Like, did they really not for a second think that one camera was on the property? I think not.

Like, they're just wandering around, like, let me put this suitcase in here and walk away. It's like, to be a fly on the wall. Like, don't you know that everyone's watching on cameras all the time? I don't know. To be a fly on the wall, though, when they found out that cameras exist. they had to go oh shit well don't worry because they literally pivot when they find out they find out and they're like don't worry we know we've got we've actually got that's what we wanted that's what was supposed to happen that's part of the plan so anyway they they are caught fleeing over this wall and then they are caught grabbing a different taxi and heading in the direction of the airport which again she left her passport in the room so nice job utterly caught in this lie and learning that cameras exist Tommy and Heather were like shit like you said and they knew now that they had to admit to

killing Sheila there was no other way they were like yeah okay so Tommy says actually here's what really happened I flew to Bali to surprise Sheila because he and Heather were pregnant oh is that true wanted to announce this breaking news they knew Sheila didn't like Tommy and they thought like okay well maybe if we're in Bali together like it'll be a nicer place to break the news

and so when she started screaming in the lobby we were like no let's go to the room we have something to share with you and apparently when they told Sheila that they were pregnant uh Sheila reacted so badly that she freaked out. They started fighting. He was afraid for Heather and their baby. Sheila began hurling insults at them.

And Heather interrupted and said, like, you have to understand, I'm having his baby. And then she, like, exploded. And she started hitting Tommy and then strangling him. Again, this is Tommy's telling of the event. And then strangling him. And Heather was screaming at Sheila to stop and get off Tommy. Tommy couldn't fight back

because he was losing consciousness because he was being choked and so in a moment of desperation and unclear of his own actions because he was deprived of oxygen he just reached for whatever he could grab and he grabbed a glass bowl by the metal handle and hit Sheila over the head with it

just in self-defense. So goes his story. I love the part where you said earlier that like they admitted to killing her but it's like did they they just yeah but did they they were like we have to find a way to tell this story yeah yeah so he says well don't worry it was all self-defense and he said he said he was in shock Tommy panicked neither of them thought anyone would believe them so they tried to escape without like a real plan obviously and it was compelling especially when they realized

that Heather was indeed pregnant okay so the story held a little more water because of that and you know it would have been compelling but investigators in indonesia were actually coordinating with the fbi back in the u.s and they had already uncovered messages between tommy and heather that didn't quite line up with this self-defense explanation sheila had confiscated heather's phone before the bali trip but heather and tommy had remained in contact online like on facebook messenger or what have you So they spoke of how wonderful their lives would be as soon as Heather turned 21 because that's when she would gain access to the trust fund that her dad left in her name.

And she would no longer have to depend on her mom for anything or use her credit card. The two of them would finally be free, you know, that teenage like romance idea of like, we'd be free to live our lives together. Heather said, I will support us financially. You'll pursue your music. We'll live happily ever after. but 21 was four years away and that was just too far so for two teenagers four years is very far away so they began concocting a plan because of course if sheila were dead heather would automatically inherit everything the entire state immediately including her trust fund so all of a sudden the couple started having these entire conversations about how they might kill sheila and here's where actually i took pictures of the screen because i was like

again so stunned by this I'm always I'm always curious how people get to that conversation like how like what are you saying to test the waters to see if the other person isn't totally freaked out by what you're suggesting

and it's like when you look through it's like the amount of like LOLs I'm like it's like ha ha ha wouldn't it be crazy if she died ha ha ha ha right how would it happen ha ha ha yeah I right and so I have two pictures here this one and I won't like we don't have to put on screen or anything but just so you see like it's like a picture of

oh wow yeah and it's it's hether's phone and it says l-ol yeah how about we drown her and then he responds she doesn't want to go to the beach we need something else and then heather responds what a bitch and then says let's just do it here and then another message from a different time said he he wrote let's make it look like a suicide and he said okay how and he said drowning and she said sounds good when and he said in Bali and she said okay so he that's how they planned it not only so okay so okay i know i'm a little maybe it's late to the game i don't know but it's finally all connecting in my head it's nonsense it's all nonsense it's crazy but they it's not like they flew in and then had exactly which is an accidental death

It's that she, they flew in with the intent to kill. Uh-huh. Which, like, changes everything because it's like, well, now you don't even have, whether you're pregnant or not. Like, I can't imagine, like, looking at my kid's phone and seeing, like, they're plotting to kill me. Are you fucking kidding me? Like, how do you do after that? Like, you can't ground her. She'll just kill you.

I don't think she ever saw it. I know. I'm saying it. Oh, oh. I can't imagine it. In the context of being, like, a parent and seeing. I mean, it's horrific. Well, and so here's the other text.

They were basically like, there's a photo of his phone, and she said, like, we're going to need something, like a weapon, like something to hit her with because they decided to hit her over the head. And then he said, yeah, I got something. I'll bring it. And here's the picture. It's hard to see, but it's basically a blurry picture

of like a metal and glass bowl that he says is in his living room. So he literally brought the fucking weapon. He brought the weapon to Bali with him. So he knew exactly what he was. is going to do. Yes, exactly. And again, how do you, again, teenagers, how do you not know, you don't know that cameras exist and you don't know that people can read your fucking text messages? Like, are you fucking three? What are you talking about? I mean, in the year was 2014. It's not like the concept of social media was brand new or anything, you know? It's like, what is going on

here? Um, so Sheila gave Heather her phone back in Bali and that's when they started actually texting back and forth, which is what these pictures are. Tommy even sent a photo of that murder weapon, which I just showed you. And she responded that that should work. Now, this is where I'm excited to show you this picture. Tommy was later caught on surveillance footage, leaving his room with something large hidden under his tank top. I mean, fucking moron.

It's the bowl, basically. And a tank top. You didn't even try like a puffer jacket or some shit. I didn't even put it in a bag or something. Like, I have a photo. it's just ridiculous. I hope you can see it. So I'm going to play the live.

Well, okay. We're going to try. Hold on. Oh, my God. He's literally, like, literally so obvious about it.

And I, by the way, it's embarrassing. For anyone, what are you doing? If you're not seeing that, I don't think, I don't know if we're going to,

I don't know if we're showing this. Yeah, I don't probably can play it. But the camera is like, it's almost as if a camera was put on a tripod, in front of his fucking face. Like, right at his hotel door. And by the way, he's looking around, like, as if he's going to, like, see something.

And I'm like, you're not looking at the fucking camera. And he has this bowl, and it looks like he's pretending to be pregnant. You know, when people do the joke of, like, oh, I've seen my stomach. He, like, has a big-ass bowl over his stomach. And I also just realized I was incorrect about saying he traveled there with the bowl, because now I'm realizing they got their phones back in, or she got her phone back in Bali. So he actually took that bowl from his resort. room to the other room that's why he had it like under his shirt he's like oh i have something

that'll work and he brings it downstairs to heather under his tank top i mean idiotic really so he was caught on this surveillance footage with like this bowl and of course then the hotel's like well yeah there was a bull and now it's not here and those are the pieces of it so yeah that's the murder weapon i mean really like not thought through at all on august 11th uh Tommy had also texted his cousin, Robert Ryan Bibbs about how to kill Sheila. Like, why do these people involve other people? I will never understand.

Robert agreed to help plan the murder if he got $50,000 from Heather's inheritance. And so then he was charged as part of the conspiracy to kill Sheila and he was sentenced to serve up to nine years in prison. But think about this. Talk about how dumb teenagers are

and this is really scary. Heather and Tommy had killed a U.S. national, but in Indonesia. So they are going to court. They're being tried and charged in Indonesia, of all places. Like, this isn't like, oh, they go home and then, like, they get to call their, like, rich lawyer, you know. Like, it's just really scary. And so they're taken into custody.

They are charged for the murder. And they had to appear before a tribunal of three judges, not a jury of peers. they would in the U.S. Court proceedings began in January 2015 when Heather was seven months pregnant. It went on for months. In March, she gave birth to a daughter named Stella, and the trial then continued. Heather and Tommy tearfully repeated their story of self-defense, but like, it was just so fucking obvious.

There's, like, no way to deny it that it was premeditated. The texts are all there. I'll hit her with this bowl. Like, what are you doing? I know just the thing. I have just the thing. video footage of me hiding it. And here it is under my tank top, seriously.

So Tommy was, okay, and I also want to add, like, that this, I don't think it got mentioned in my notes, but it was, like, pretty jarring. I had to rewind and make sure I heard it correctly that in Indonesia, the, the result of this trial could be death by firing squad. That was on the table for what their punishment would be. not only death penalty but like specifically firing squad so it's like well nice work idiots i mean thankfully that didn't happen but just to give you an idea of like what suddenly they were faced with you know yeah holy shit so tommy was ultimately convicted of premeditated murder and sentenced to

18 years in prison which he would serve in indonesia heather was convicted of aiding and abetting murder and she was sentenced to 10 years in prison and the judges declared that she received a lighter sentence because they didn't want her daughter to grow up without a mother. So she did get an easier sentence because of that. Her Indonesian law, Heather, was allowed to keep Stella in prison with her until Stella turned two. Oh, wow. Then Stella went to live with a Balinese man and his Australian wife who had assisted Heather as an interpreter during her trial. So Heather would ultimately renounce her claim to all of her inheritance, and Stella became the sole beneficiary of the family's estate.

We talk about a plot twist. know. Heather served only seven years of her sentence in Indonesia, but she did not go free because when she completed that sentence, she was deported to the U.S. in 2021, where she then faced charges in the United States. Holy shit. Wow. So like really, really bad. The U.S. tried Heather with different charges than the Indonesian court to avoid the laws of like being, of like double jeopardy of being charged twice for the same, tried twice for the same charge. So the U.S. tried twice for the same charge. So the The prison chief warden in Indonesia said that Heather had changed during her time in prison. She was involved in organizing official activities for people she was imprisoned with.

She grew to love them and became close with them and the culture of Indonesia. And she was apparently shocked and frightened when she was released early for good behavior. Now Stella was six years old, which is crazy. Heather wanted six-year-old Stella to remain in Bali with her foster parents because she just knew like, oh, the media attention and the upheaval back home will be a nightmare. But it was against Indonesian law for a minor to remain in the country when their mother is deported. So Heather and Stella both arrived. Imagine this poor six-year-old too being like four years with this foster family and then like, you're forced to go to Chicago all of a sudden. I mean, geez. Yeah, so they arrived in Chicago together.

And according to court records, a judge granted emergency custody of Stella to one of Heather's attorneys. A woman named Kea Walker, who's Tommy's mother and Stella's therefore grandmother was upset that Stella was staying with an attorney and she said Stella has family here. Like I'm her grandmother. I want my granddaughter. I want this craziness to stop. So now there's this custody battle between Kia, Stella's foster mother, Oshar Suatarma, and Diana Roke Ellis, a close friend of Sheila's in life. They're all just trying to get custody of this baby six year old baby there were concerns over custody in such a high profile case too because like they didn't want her being exploited for for books for media like they didn't want people

or her inheritance now like it's all just front page news um and she's only six years old i guess i mean i don't want i'm not at all saying that like oh this kid is so lucky but at least there are people who are trying to like take her to protect her like at least she's got to safe people to go to yeah well according to um some people not so much but this is just accusations that were thrown around but people made accusations that diana heather and even the foster mother oshar planned to involve stella in a documentary but i think that was just like okay i think they were just starting rumors but yeah basically it's like all these people whether they were friends of shilas or like blood related grandmother

or what have you like yeah people wanted to to take her in um i am sad they didn't Let her stay with her family in Bali. I don't know what the situation is, so I don't feel like I can speak on that. But it's just a lot for a little girl, obviously. So the judge making custody decisions actually said, quote, the fact that Stella is doing as well as she is is a credit to her, dare I say, not to the adults. And I was like, thank you. Because all these people fighting and hurling accusations, I mean, it's not good for the kid.

like when it's like oh i want her i want it's like it turns into like a pissing match for everyone and then like the kid is just like on the sidelines it's just all scary and sad but yeah but they're they're trying to do the best for her also but it's like what a mess anyway a big old gray space it's like yeah there's like no way to win in this scenario i would say so diana was denied custody because she didn't have like an actual relationship with stella this is just the friend of of Sheila's. Heather had hoped to live with Diana and Stella

if she were released awaiting trial. So she was hoping that Diana would get her daughter so that they could all three connect afterward. But finally, Stella was placed with Heather's maternal cousin. Okay. I don't know how that happened,

but I'm sure there was a lot of back and forth about it. In 2023, Heather pleaded guilty. Imagine this happened in 2014. That's so wild. It's just still going. In 2023, Heather pleaded guilty to one count of conspiracy to kill a U.S. national.

In January, 2024, Heather was sentenced to 26 years in prison for conspiracy to kill a U.S. national. And the two years she spent in custody since arriving back in the U.S. were credited to her sentence. Heather's family has immensely struggled since Sheila's death. At Heather's U.S. sentencing, Sheila's brother, Bill, requested the maximum allowed sentence against Heather, not the firing squad in Bali, but like in the U.S. which would be life behind bars. And he told NBC News, if it were up to me, Heather would spend the rest of her life behind bars. Prosecutor said that Heather covered Sheila's mouth to muffle the screams while Tommy beat her mother to death with that weapon. After Debbie, her sister sob during a victim impact statement, Heather said to her aunt,

it breaks my heart hearing you cry. There's no excuse for me trying to harm. her i miss and love my mother and it's just also heartbreaking because it's like you have to imagine me like as a teenage girl she got i don't know i don't know i don't know it's just it's such a it's such a messy spot because part of part of me wants to have total compassion and the other parts like oh whoa yeah like what a fuck have you done yeah no you're right you're right you're right she said i just didn't lose this is debby again i just didn't lose my sister and best friend i really lost my niece too it's another heartbreak that i have to live with for the

rest of my life. Mm-hmm. So as of today, Heather remains in prison in the U.S., Tommy Schaefer, meanwhile, is still serving his first prison sentence in Indonesia. Wow. And when he's released, he has to face charges in the U.S. as well. He's never getting out. Can you imagine?

Like, he was the one who actually brought the murder weapon, killed her. You know, it's just... Wow. It's bad. It's ugly. Wow. Happy Halloween. scary it is scary i'll give you that i'll give you that oh my gosh well but you know me in like

three weeks i'll be like i have the craziest Halloween story for you today and i look forward to it well okay it's thanksgiving but all right i look forward to it um yeah i mean technically it's not Halloween yet when this comes out and we can make the the weekend after Halloween our Halloween episode. We do have something to say, which is that we do have a little surprise coming out on Halloween. We do have a little surprise coming out on Halloween. Not a not the normal episode, but maybe perhaps even more fun. So just get ready for that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so anyway, you have a second chance. I'll keep I'll keep the cobwebs up next week in case you want to do something Halloween. You know what? This will be my chance. I'm going to forget. This will be my chance. This will be your second chance. wait doesn't this come out in like two weeks or am i crazy oh does this come out on already the weekend after october oh my god m this comes out on november 2nd after all this time you've really made me look a fool in your condom costume and everything you don't even have a chance to

this is way funny that we're doing it like two days after Halloween um i'm sorry everyone well don't be sorry we clearly well maybe i could also be wrong i don't know anymore we'll find out together It's always Halloween in our minds. Well, I hope you had a good time as Pete the Cat or something. And, um, thank you. I had a great time as a condom. I did. I could tell. You remember this. Can you hear it? Is it too loud?

That's what you're doing. Shimmy, shimmy, shimmy, shimmy, shimmy, shimmy, shimmy, shimmy, and just so, so sincere. Like, can you hear it? Well, then, um, happy Halloween, everybody. And I guess next time we celebrate anything, we'll be singing. our cranberry song so honestly let's not for i won't forget that i don't know how to decorate but um you know we'll sing that's what we'll do first of all you know how to decorate you just haven't come up with the right plan yet so don't worry you're right something in me knows but the something deep

inside my awake the awake me does not know yet you'll have the awakening don't worry uh well everybody if you want to listen to more of us you can go over to patreon listen to our intermission in between both of our stories today, uh, you can tune in to here and be sure sandy. And you can go to that one last show that is apparently over. It's already been over for two weeks. And also, uh,

and I wore a condom costume and everyone was like, what? Um, no, I'll also listen to our, we don't talk about this enough, but we're going to get better about it. I think over time is what I tell myself. But listen to the other parapods shows. We have some really, really lovely, wonderful, uh, shows and we're obviously you've noticed we've been doing some crossovers um with other hosts for

for paraween uh invasion of the host snatchers it's been so much fun to like and it's also been so cool to get to know people that like i know but i haven't like host like we haven't like hosted one-on-one as a co-host with all these people so it's it's kind it's been really cool and um i just i adore everybody on our network so much so we got all sorts of fun stuff um go check it out uh parapods i don't even know where what the website is, but I assume it's, it exists. Parapods.com. Parapods.com. No, not that one.

It's not that. Uh-oh. Huge domains.com. Well, go look at it. That's why I drink.com and learn more. Parapodsnetwork.com is what I meant to say. Of course. Me too.

Parapods Network. I'm pretty sure I helped come up with that. I think I picked that URL, so that's on me. Oh, I'm sorry. Like, I think Eva sent me a list and I was like, that one. then I didn't remember, so I apologize. But yes, so we do have a Peripod's website with all our shows and a place if you want to contact us and get to know us and see what we're about. And yeah, anyway, we're just so thankful for all of you.

All right. We'll see y'all next week. And that's why we drink.