And That's Why We Drink - E466 Haunted Toilets and Frozen Jail

Episode Date: January 18, 2026

It’s episode 466 and we’d otter be in Fredericksburg. This week we’re headed back to Alaska for Em to tell us about the haunted Alaskan Hotel & Bar. Then Christine dives back in to cover Part Two of the Fort Worth Trio and the many theories as to what happened. And be careful of any ghosts out there looking to tuck you into bed! …and that’s why we drink! Catch our bonus Yappy Hour intermissions on Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3L28lDw or subscribe on Patreon: http://patreon.com/ATWWDPodcast! ___________________ Explore coverage at https://www.aspcapetinsurance.com/DRINK . The ASPCA® is not an insurer and is not engaged in the business of insurance. Go to https://hellofresh.com/drink10fm to get 10 free meals plus a free Zwilling Knife ($144.99 value) on your third box—offer valid for new subscribers while supplies last. If you think you or someone you know might be struggling with OCD, please don’t wait to get help. Go to https://learn.nocd.com/ATTWD and book a free call with their team to learn more Let Rocket Money help you reach your financial goals faster—join at https://RocketMoney.com/DRINK Get 40% off your entire order at https://Lolablankets.com by using code DRINK at checkout. Experience the world’s #1 blanket with Lola Blankets. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, Ontario, come on down to BentMGM Casino and see what our newest exclusive the Price's Right Fortune Pick has to offer. Don't miss out. Play exciting casino games based on the iconic game show, only at BetMGM. Check out how we've reimagined three of the show's iconic games, like Plinkgo, Cliffhanger, and the Big Wheel into fun casino game features. Don't forget to download the BetmGM Casino app for exclusive access and excitement on the Price's Right Fortune Pick. seat and experience the Price is Right Fortune Pick, only available at BetMGM Casino. BetMGM and GameSense remind you to play responsibly. 19 plus to wager.

Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you have questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connects Ontario at 1866-531-2,600, to speak to an advisor, free of charge. BenMGGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming Ontario. Hey, Ontario, come on down to BetMGM, KetMGM. casino and see what our newest exclusive the Price is Right Fortune Pick has to offer. Don't miss out.

Play exciting casino games based on the iconic game show only at BetMGM. Check out how we've reimagined three of the show's iconic games, like Plinkgo, cliffhanger, and The Big Wheel into fun casino game features. Don't forget to download the BetMGM Casino app for exclusive access and excitement on the Price's Right Fortune Pick. Pull up a seat and experience the Price's Right Fortune Pick. Only available at BedmGM Casino. BetMGM and GameSense remind you to play responsibly.

19 plus to wager. Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you have questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connects Ontario. At 1866, 531, 2,600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. BenMGGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming Ontario. Christine, I last night slept on the couch.

wasn't feeling good. Something just needed to feel, you know, like your kid again. But what kept me cozy was my Lola blanket. Sometimes I will lay on the couch. I ended up getting one for upstairs too because I couldn't live without the one downstairs or I would be sleeping on the couch every night. I slept in Leona's room last night on the floor.

And I slept with my Lola blanket. And I cannot believe how well I slept despite sleeping on the floor. It's truly a cloud. It's unbelievable. It's wild. People come over and they're like, is that a Lola blanket? And I'm like,

you want to try it. Lola is the world's number one blanket crafted with ultra soft luxury vegan faux fur and a signature four-way stretch. That's the thing that like really does it for me. It's machine washable, double hemmed for durability and stays flawless. There's no pilling, no shedding. Even I've washed mine several times has still feels just the same. It's, it's like a miracle product. It really is. For a limited time, our listeners can get 40% off, select Lola Blankets products with code drink at checkout. Just head to LolaBlinkets.com and use code drink to get 40% off your order. after you purchase i'll ask where you heard about them please support our show and let them know we sent you wrap yourself in luxury with lola blankets um hmm what's on your what's on your shirt life is peachy what is peachy and fredericksburg texas that's right i i so desperately needed to there's always been one other fredericksburg that i've known of and it was in texas and i was i the rivalry was completely one-sided but i needed to know for myself what it was all about And one of the times I went to Texas, I have a friend that lives in Texas, and I made her drive like an hour and a half to take me to Fredericksburg, Texas.

And all I got was this lousy t-shirt. That's a cute shirt. They kind of, Fredericksburg, Virginia, if you're listening, and I pray someone is because I'm from there. And I would love some attention. Please. If we, someone who is in charge of the merch of Fredericksburg, Virginia, needs to do some undercover sleuthing in Fredericksburg, Texas, because they know what the fuck they're doing over there, and it's embarrassing. I have something to say. is it you?

Muhammad Gandhi said, Be the change you wish to see in the world. Oh, okay. It sounds like maybe you are noticing a lack that you feel you have the aesthetic sensibility to solve and you're kind of outsourcing, you know, like who can fix this. And I want you to kind of take a moment and think, could it be me as in you, not me? I don't want to do it. I could write a letter to the Chamber of Commerce today, actually.

I don't know what you're talking. Okay, I meant like just design the merch, but I guess you could write a letter to the Chamber of Commerce. I will say, okay, actually, I don't hell you need to write a letter to the chain. They don't care if you make merch for their town. I beg to differ. I don't know if it's a chamber of commerce. You think you're going to be censored?

In my time, thinking about the Chamber of Commerce, which was all two seconds of my life just now. In the time that I've worked with the Chamber of Commerce. I do know that there is a building in downtown Fredericksburg that they feel like a little too, it looks like I'm in a mayor's office when I go in there. And they're the only people who sell anything Fredericksburg. shirt related. And they only have two. And so I have one of them, which I was actually wearing

yesterday. It's so funny. I kind of, I need to email them and be like, I'm sitting here in a Fredericksburg, Texas shirt, and you should be embarrassed. What I'm saying is like instead of just bullying these people into like maybe making even worse merch or like similarly quality merch, why don't you just design new merch and say like, here's some merch for Fredericksburg, Virginia is what I'm kind of getting at. I get what you're getting at. I'm trying to come up with a different tactic where I just don't talk to the chamber of commerce. I just want to yell at somebody. Oh, okay. Well, then please, carry on. My mistake. But I do, I do like your idea of just maybe, maybe it would be a, it would be a, what's the right word? Not so much of a low blow if I maybe gave them some

suggestions along the way. Right. Like, hey, I saw these kind of things in Texas. Maybe you could get a clue, you could say. Get a clue. Fredericksburg, Virginia, if you're watching, I want this. Hey, I have an idea. Can I, are we allowed to brainstorm? Are we allowed to brainstorm? Okay, how about how about Fredericksburg Texas can kick rocks how's that you can sell it and start take a hike

yeah do the one like really lean into the one sided rivalry and like don't ever tell them and see how long it takes them to figure it out that's a good idea and if anyone has any suggestions in the comments I will send them to the Chamber of Commerce but I will let you know Fredericksburg is trying really hard to make

otters our mascot why because we live across a river and I guess there's a lot of river otters. And then we had a whole baseball team and they didn't know what to give the mascot for that. And they picked George Washington as our fucking baseball mascot. So dumb. Go to pick an otter, but whatever.

Literally it's like when they changed the Florence Freedom baseball team to the Florence Yalls and people got mad and I was like, really you prefer Florence freedom? Get a fucking life, dude. Like a river otter would have a wonderful little mascot. Now I think so. Be happy about the president. You don't have to be happy about it. You can really write a letter to the chamber of course. I really just might. I'm at least going to hashtag them in something after this.

You're going to hashtag them. I'll know. Anyway, if anyone has a river otter t-shirt idea, let me know. I'll send it their way. Yeah, I oughter be in Fredericksburg. Listen, I could go for days. Let's fucking go. I love that. I love that. Or really, if they were all about unity, it should be one river otter is Fredericksburg, Virginia. One's Fredericksburg, Texas, and they're holding hands because that's what I'm doing too. And the one from Frederick, Texas is way uglier, though. has a big old butt tooth yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah I think you say but and I was like no no no that has to be the Virginia one has a big booty oh well what do you what do you have to

Christine how's your life oh god I'm trying to survive listen I've got I hope you can't hear it I turned off the fan we the other day I'm short-circiting I'm sorry I'm trying to figure out what to address first hmm hey why don't you tell me why you drink and then I will I will try and organize my thoughts. Excellent. Okay. Love that. I want to show you what I brought, because I brought vitamin water and then I brought a bottle of

wine just in case. And I thought maybe after the break and now I'm like, I think I might open it right now. Open it now. It's like two in the afternoon, barely. And it's a Friday. It's two o'clock on a Friday. True. And my daughter is at my mom's all day.

I have not heard a reason why you shouldn't open that fucking thing. Okay. So while I crack into it, I also brought the screwtop, of course, 19 crimes situation. Mommy's going to have fun today. I'm going to have at least a little bit of a numbing agent while we discuss whatever we're going to discuss today. Anyway, why do you drink while I set this up? I drink out of, speaking of Texas and all the slander, I just gave them, here's a Bucky's mug. Oh, okay, but now we're getting that.

That's hot. I've never said that before about an item, but that's a hot. Is she not the most bisexual cup you've ever seen her life? That's like a hot water cup. It's almost as bisexual as my Starbucks cup that has, has like the actual. the magenta into, you know, my bisexual as bisexual as you. Yeah. Oh my God. Well, I wouldn't go that far. I'm taking a sip. Oh my God, but that is a beautiful fucking cup. Isn't she, she's a cutie. I'm like, that's hot. That's a hot cup. Like, I need to get well. I need to get better.

It makes me feel good though. You said that. Oh, look at my cup actually. Now that we're both drinking out of cool cups. That's batty. Batty. I brought this, uh, this batty up from my dusty cabinet in the dining room. Wash something. I'm trying, okay. I can barely wash my own face slash hair. I found this cup. It has bats on it and I bought it on discount from

crate and barrel like four years ago. And I never used them, but then I'm like, fuck it. It doesn't have to be Halloween to use a bat mug. That's exactly right. And you don't have to be bisexual to drink out of a big old pink and blue cup. That's exactly right.

But she's a big girl. I think the biggest cup I own. And I... I put, usually I would just do like a mug of tea. This is three mugs and one. And I usually bring us to the dog park when it's chilly out. Wow. But I needed her today because I don't know what happened.

But yesterday I started getting a little tickle on my throat and I woke up today with a very odd cough. It's like there's nothing else ill about me except I'm just feeling kind of like flimmy and gross. No. But I usually, I don't know, this is apparently, I'm nine days in and I've had two illnesses that my body isn't used to having. So at least it's not hand foot and mouth again. Girl, my neighbor, not my neighbor. My cousins in Seattle just got that.

Oh, good thing you already got it. Literally the week after I left too. Good thing you and I had our chicken pox party, but with hand foot and mouth and we all got it together. Yeah. And I was actually alone and I was supposed to go to Iceland or something. Correct. And you missed a whole vacation. Yeah.

It's okay. I talk about a learning experience. That's what that was. Yeah, sure. We all learned a lot. I learned that I hate it. That's what I learned. Okay.

So anyway, I drink just to, it's hot tea just to keep my... I was going to ask. Lubricated. So that's it. Why do you drink? Please tell me. I got to know what this wine's all about. Okay, there's a lot happening.

I wasn't going to really talk about it. I'm just going to give a brief update because it's just uncomfortable and weird. And I don't know. But people on the internet are very sleuthy and very good at reading between the lines and hypothesizing. And I have to respect them for that. So I'm just going to give a brief update of what's been going on. Yes, there has been, which by the way, people, my brother sent me a screenshot and was like,

man, people are great sleuths because people went and like found little things I've said over the last year and been like, what's going on in Christy's life? And I'm like, damn, people are good. I mean, I do talk about myself a lot. So it's like to be expected. But it's kind of your job. Yeah. Kind of my job. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't, I don't fall to anyone for wondering. And I know it's kind of, I've been very vague. But essentially, now that I want to give a trigger warning here for, for pregnancy loss, but I in September found out I was pregnant. We were very excited, told Leona. She, like, was so excited to be a big sister.

Lost the pregnancy, mid-December, had surgery, like, over Christmas. And my mom and Tim left town and Blaze got the flu, so he didn't even see him for 15, 16 days. So it's, it's so I feel, I feel like I want to give a little caveat because people are like, is she just like bored? I'm like, no, I'm just struggling. Okay. But I'm okay. We're all okay. I do I did for Christmas. This is again a little bit sad. So I apologize. Skip forward if you don't want to hear sad. But it's also sweet. Leona had drawn for school. They made in the fall they made leaf families. And so she went outside and picked a leaf that she felt like represented everybody in the family. And she, her teacher was like, hey, I don't know about this. But she, she picked like a little ginkgo leaf for for baby. And she's like, are you having a baby? And I was like, oh my God. So she's, she. like added a little like leaf for baby with googly eyes and it was just really sad because then you know obviously telling her was the hardest part and then for christmas i got blazing me these like

little um it's a leona leaf and a and the baby leaf with the little giggly eyes it's hard to see but it's like a little charm that's very precious and so i've been wearing that and um it's calmed my but we told leona and she's like i don't care and i was like okay so this is not what uh the mommy blogs prepared me for what I expected. And then we have processed it a lot. But the reason I drink is because my child keeps asking me, when are you going to die? When am I going to die? And I'm like, okay, we've hit this stage. And so now keep in mind when I was talking about Santa and stuff, I was like try to get through all this and also like try to tell her about death. So it's been an extremely long month. I understand. I'm okay. We're all good now, a little bit. But I just I felt like I needed to

give a little bit of clarity because I used to be a lot more open about things and it's just I don't know I guess as I get older I'm just like less lappy about my personal life or maybe it's just things are more intense and more serious and then there is also other stuff that people have picked up on that I'm less shy about I just don't care to give it the energy it doesn't deserve which is just family stuff but M knows about that already so um which is just you know the typical like millennial boomer estrangement situation that you hear so much about Oprah on Oprah. Okay, so there's that.

That's why I drink, but also the real reason, well, that's all the real reason for the last month. But the real reason today is that last night, so I've been thinking there's a ghost in my house because. Hang on, hang on. Let me just shift gears for a second because. Why, it's all connected. No.

Oh, it is. Okay. No, it's not. I was going to say this does make the Santa conversation 10 times harder. And I feel like an asshole for the advice I was. No, you were very helpful and I feel like you made the point of like, hey, make it magic. Like, it's fun to have it be magical. And it was.

And I feel like that was very good guidance. So, no, so that was great. And I really was mostly concerned about that at that point. Because like I said, Leona didn't care about the other thing. You know what? It sounds like you can write a brand new mommy blog of like what you can also expect another. If your child is more like your Capricorn partner than your Gemini self and can't really. quick to pivot, yeah.

Quick to just be like, what is it, I always forget, is it right brain or left brain? That's like the, I think right brain. I don't know. But left brain is the like analytical one, right? No, other way. I'm left handed, which means I'm right brained and I'm more, I'm not as analytical. Okay, okay, okay, right. So I guess that's right brain.

Oh, yeah, okay. So she's more left brain like Blaze where they're just like, well, and then she's like, does Santa die? And I was like, well, now this is getting complicated because how am I supposed to talk about that? So I was like, Christmas? of Christmas ever die. No, literally, that was like, Christmas magic is immortal. And she's like, there's no such thing as magic. And I'm like, all right, this is actually becoming really upsetting to me. You know what? You really, I'll remember this for myself one day having to, a lot of conversations all at once between magic, Santa, the spirit of Christmas and death.

When I tell you, it rains, it pours. And when I say that, I mean it literally, because last night, as I'm saying, I'm telling you, I'm laying there. I'm like, I just texted, I forget my brother or somebody. And I was like, wow, I finally feel like back to myself a little bit, like slowly starting to like get back to normal and get into the swing of things. And I'm falling asleep and I feel this like, so I've been feeling this weird like touching and it and I've let it happen because I'm like, what is that? And it feels almost like someone is like tapping up the side of my leg like as I fall asleep. And I felt this for years living here. The only time I ever felt it was living here. And it never felt like malicious. It was just like strange.

And I was like, is that like my nerve? Like is that, am I like twitching? Like I couldn't figure out what it was. But it happened so often in different spots. And then I was listening to Jim Herald's campfire and someone was like, oh, I didn't put it together until I heard this on your show, Jim. But I used to have this poking feeling. And I think that was someone tucking me in. And I went, oh my God.

Because then I went, that's what it is. It's like whenever I have a blanket, it's almost like someone is like pushing the blanket up under me. But it doesn't feel like threatening because I. Okay. But it feels like someone's tucking me in. And so last night, or it was actually two nights ago, I was falling asleep. And I thought I felt that. And then all of a sudden I heard this sound.

And I went, oh my God, what is this? And I was like, it's happening. There's a ghost. And I hear like, do, do, do. When I was like, what the fuck? And then I'm like, there's a sound coming from the walls. And then all of a sudden I hear rushing water. And I go, okay, actually now I'm worried.

Dude, what? It was a toilet on the third floor had completely, like, rotted out like the inside did. and had literally filled the third floor with just like this like flood of water. And it was pouring down into our hallway like stairwell. It was just pouring out of the ceiling like hardwood floors. And for those who don't know, Christine's staircase, who else would know this, Christine's staircase, it's like like in a hotel of the stairs where like you can lean over the banister and look straight down to several floors.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So when the water's pouring on your third floor, it's literally, as you just like, raining to the second floor, raining into the first floor. And now then it's pooling and it's spreading. And thank God I was awake because I felt this fucking ghost. And I was awake at like one in the morning, which like typically I'm not awake by the at that point. And I'm awake and I just, but I heard it start. So thank God. Because if I'd fall in asleep and just didn't hear the water running, it would have like gone on all night. I mean, we went upstairs at like 1.30 and the floor of the bathroom was like a pool. I was like you can't go in there. What, my God, I have so many house questions. We have emergency flood people come out. Are your floors,

like all three floors rotted? No, thank God. So it just went through the ceiling here. It leaked over so that we had tile in the bathroom. Thank God. But then it went into the hallway, which is wood flooring and seeped through through the ceiling.

But like nothing else really got damaged because we caught it right away. But like, I mean, it is so expensive. And I was like, of course it's expensive. You don't call water emergency services unless like you have to. So of course it's from like the 18 fucking hundreds. I know. And so it's a fucking arm and a leg. And then they brought this industrial fucking dehumidifier and fan that's like right in the stairwell. And Blaze goes, is that too loud for recording? And I was like, yaha. It's so fucking fucking humidifier is running. The dehumidifier is running. The fucking industrial fan is not on right now. Blaze turned it off for me. So it's just like humid. It's huge. Is it humid or anything? I'm trying to think like water and trying to get rid of the water.

So they're basically just trying to dry out the like, yeah, the area where it like seep through. So they have a fan going and they're trying to, I guess, I don't know. We were like, whatever you say, guys. But now we have to undo both toilets. So now we need new toilets on the third floor. I'm like, this is the part of the house I hoped I never had to touch because it's like, who the hell wants to go up to the third floor, you know? Oh, my God. And here I am.

I'm so sorry. That's pretty terrible. Anyway, it's just like one of those. And then I was like to my therapist, I was like, well, when it rains it pours, get it? And she was like, uh-huh. It's like, yeah, I get it and also don't want to laugh. Girl. I feel just so bad for you.

Oh, my God. And that feels at one in the morning, I would have seen that. And I honestly don't know what I would have done. It was like when Hank got skunked at two in the morning and I was about to go to bed and I was so exhausted. Part of me was like, is there a world where I can deal with this tomorrow? I absolutely in the moment go, what are the risks? You know how like you learn in stats and like microeconomics like risk versus.

I never learned any of that, but I do it in my head. I'm like, what's the risk of going to bed now? Pretending I never saw anything. Right, right. The risk was too great. I woke Blaze up. Part of me thought, I hope he doesn't come upstairs and I can just put a bunch of towels down. Thank God he came up because he's like, he's like, turned the water off and I'm

turning the water off. I'm taking the toilet apart. I mean, it's just a mess. And it was like, I'm soaking one in toilet water. It was so gross. Oh my God. And the toilet is probably like a 50 years. old. It's this humongous, like, old porcelain thing. All the rubbers, like, rotted out. It was just

ridiculous. I was like, this house, had you, when you got the house, did you, you got an inspection? Like, did they say eventually I'll have to go with this? By the way, we got an inspection on paper only, because we moved in. We realized the rugs on the balcony had been covering up huge holes in rotted wood. Geo went straight through one of the holes and, like, thank God, it was just big enough for one paw, but we were like, holy shit, they didn't catch anything. There was styrofoam, stuffed into the gutters for God knows what reason. Like there's stuff in this house. Like they use paint that like if you turn on the fireplace that they painted,

it like bubbles and it's not meant for heat. I mean, just like things where you're like, what were you thinking? So. It's literally like over 100 years of people just making. Of people making cheap decision. Yes, exactly. And I'm like, I get it to an extent. Right.

Like if you're renting, this used to be like multi, multi part housing and like somebody owned, I think it was like two apartments and somebody owned the building. So like I get it. If you're renting, you're like, I don't want to spend money on a nice toilet. But it's like now I feel like, of course, it's catching up to the house. You had a good few years though, man. We had a good run. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, slowly but surely. Oh my God. That's terrible. It's just been a doozy of a month. And it's one of those problems where it's so annoying. Well, duh. But it's one of those problems where like if you just want to have someone, you want to call someone and have it be done by the day by the end of the day.

And it's just going to be an issue for like maybe weeks. Like it's just going to be so annoying. It doesn't end. And then they were like, do you want us to come back every day to check on the dehumidifier? And we were like, they're like, that'll be $400 more. And I was like, oh, would we need you to come check on the dehumid? Like, no. Yeah, I'll look at the floor and tell you if my feet are wet.

Like really, exactly. And Blaze like went to Lowe's today to like get new toilets. And I'm like, this is our life. And Blaze has to carry. them up three floors? You know, I'm trying to remember how we did it last time. Oh, it wasn't on the third floor. So we didn't have to carry it up three floors. Right. Yeah, we'll figure that part out. Certainly not my job. Your lucky blazes strong. I know. I'm like, well, not after that flu. I'm like, you better get those biceps back. Carry that damn thing up the stairs. Like, is your chest,

is your respiratory system feeling good? Because it's about to be pumping. Yeah. Let's do one of those breath tests. So to see how strong your lungs are today because you're going to be carrying porcelain up the stairs. Honestly, I think that would be worth the $400. I'd be like, don't come check the floors, but certainly carry the toilets up here. Please, I would pay, yes, I would have to pay someone to do that. Oye, yoy, yoy. Anyway, that's that. Sorry for all the jabberin.

I just felt like, I felt like by not saying anything, I was just kind of letting people speculate and try to figure out what was up. But, yeah, that's what's up. It's just a hard time of life. But, you know, 2025 was very hard on a lot of us. So I think I think a lot of people can commiserate, but I'm really truly doing okay now, and especially now that I have a glass of wine. So I'm happy.

Yeah, you need it. I don't know why you fucking had the nerve to be like, I don't know if I should. Drink that. Listen, I live in a perpetual state of chaos. Chaos, fear. No. Yeah, you're right. I just needed to kind of put on the act of pretending like I didn't need the wine, you know, or didn't.

Yeah, we all knew. We need to feel like you're making the decision. for you. And I needed you to feel like, I need to feel validated in my decisions, so thank you. You wouldn't need to have the mystery of will she, won't she? Yeah. And then encourage me, you know, to do the wrong thing. And why else would I bring a screw top up? Like, we know I'm going to open that. Well, that's funny that you call it the wrong thing. When the wrong thing on a Friday at two, after all your problems would be to not drink the wine. Would be a vitamin water. Yeah. Right. Big mistake. Stay hydrated. Um, and to all my thirsty rats, if it is the weekend for you,

please drink. If you needed permission, please drink. Mm-hmm. Me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me. We're warming our instruments to tell you all about what is, hello, hello, hello. Fresh, fresh, fresh. We got enchiladas going on at my house tonight. We've got pork chops going on at my house. I mean, it sounds like we're living in some era where we were like,

where we, like, cook for our families, you know? And HelloFresh makes me feel like I am doing that. And like I'm a productive, you know, member of my family. My favorite thing these days about HelloFresh. is that they have bigger portions, so no one leaves a table hungry, even though I'm the only person at the table. But I'm not leaving hungry. You can choose from 35 high protein weekly recipes,

including new Mediterranean and GLP-1-friendly options. They have so many options now that it takes me, like, twice as long, to pick what I want to eat, but it makes it so much more fun because then I know what is coming, and I'm excited for enchiladas specifically. I get it. I get it. They have steak and seafood.

Plus, they have three times more seafood options now at no extra cost. And you can feast on seasonal produce from stone fruit, My favorite, to corn on the cob. I mean, options are endless. Go to Hellofresh.com slash drink 10 FM to get 10 free meals plus a freeze-willing knife, which is $144.99 value on your third box. Offer valid while supplies last. Free meals applied as discount on first box.

New subscribers only varies by plan. I know I spend my days talking about disturbing facts in the true crime world, but wouldn't you know it? I also have disturbing thoughts that are all my own and come from my own brain. Yeah, that's a great winning marker of OCD, which is a serious and highly misunderstood condition that causes people to get stuck in these cycles of repetitive, unwanted thoughts and physical behaviors. Intrusive thoughts, you know, that's a big word nowadays, but it really is a very unsettling and debilitating experience that has a lot of misconceptions. And that's why we're so thrilled whenever we have an OCD reading, ad read. Not every therapist understands OCD or is qualified to treat it effectively, which can make it difficult to find the right help.

OCD is highly treatable with a specialized type of therapy called ERP or exposure and response prevention, which no CD offers. And with no CD, you can do live virtual ERP therapy with licensed therapists who specialize in OCD. NoCD therapists are highly trained so they really understand OCD and won't judge you no matter what your thoughts are about. And no CD therapy is covered by insurance for over 155 million Americans. It makes me want to cry because I just remember like when I got diagnosed and it was so hard and scale. and I was like, how's anyone going to do this? And now they have tools like this, which just like makes me so happy. If you think you or someone you know might be struggling with OCD, please don't wait to get help.

Go to nocd.com and book a free call with their team to learn more. That's NOCD.com to schedule a free call and learn more. Well, I have a story for you. This comes straight out of a stranger I met. Straight out of a stranger. Yeah, well, it was a story suggestion from them. I went to one of those like, I feel like all the

all the listeners who have who have requested the same thing 400 times are like really I just had to be a stranger and just spit it out and then I will cover it I went to one of those like go to dinner with strangers things

and what's that oh they're all over LA there's like six or seven different companies that sounds terrible I mean I'm sure it's fun in its own way but it makes me immediately like clench up what is it you just go to dinner with strangers they just they send you a time 24

hours before and say. And it's just randomized? Yeah. Wow. Okay. Okay. So you went to this thing. And I actually signed it. I got a subscription, by the way. So I'm going to be doing it quite often. Make sure to check rocket money next year. I know. No, but I mentioned ghosts and someone said, oh, I just had a trip in Alaska. You should do this one. And so I just looked it up and. Didn't you just do an Alaska one? Yeah. So I don't know what's going on. Alaska has been in my scope for a while now. I can see Alaska from my house. What an outdated obscure reference.

I love it. I think about it at least once a week. I can see her from my house. You see Russia from my house. To me it was hysterical, but to anyone younger than us, they're like, what the fuck did you just say? Get out of here, you little kids. So where am I here? Oh, so yeah, Alaska's been popping up recently, so maybe that's my next big trip.

But I, it's a hotel and a hotel. Alaska, I feel like I literally just covered one of these, but it's another one. So I hope everyone's okay with that. I had plans, which I might be doing next week for an alien UFO abduction situation. But that got pushed because of Alaska. So this is the Alaskan Hotel. It is also called, or it was called for a moment, the Northlander Hotel, but known as the Alaskan Hotel.

So we're in Juneau, and it's in 1913. that's when it was created. And the Alaskan hotel is Alaska's most haunted hotel apparently. Okay. And when I looked it up online, there was not too much information. I really got a lot of my info from TV shows I watched, which I love when that happens. Because sometimes I watch it and I only get one blur, but I'm like, was that really worth the three hours, you know? I mean, it is when you get to show me a timestamp during the episode.

That's always worth it for me. I agree. But I'm sure it spends hours of your life, wasting time. agree, but it's, yeah, when it's worth it, it's worth it. So anyway, in 1913, we see the beginnings of the Alaskan Hotel. I just kind of went through this history last time, so I'm just going to kind of fly through it, but this was built during the height of the Gold Rush, and there weren't a lot of hotels at the time.

It was a lot of, like, boarding houses. And this was also, Alaska wasn't even officially a territory yet. I think it was just like frontier land. And these two brothers, who literally struck gold, then had an enough. money and they're like we're going to build one of the first hotels out here for the rest of the miners coming into town. So these two brothers, they were the McCluskey brothers and then they had a third person helping them named Jules Caro. You don't have to remember any of those people. He sounds like a Knives Out character. I've been watching a lot of knives out like murder mystery.

That's exactly right. And their names were John James and Jules, which I love. See? It's like the Duggers or fucking running their hotel. It is. They had the idea first. So at the time, like I said, they were a lot of hotels. So this was one of the first ones. And it opened in 1913. It is now Alaska's oldest continuously operating hotel. It still exists. And it was on the, it became part of the National Register of Historic Places in the 70s. It was built one year after Alaska became a territory. Okay. So pretty much for as long as Alaska has been a territory, this is a hotel. That's pretty cool. I liked this one quote that I found that's to give you an idea of the energy going on in this hotel when it first got built is that it was this hotel um was quote placed at the

crossroads of the future of emerging civilization but in the past of frontier lawlessness loved i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm not i'm not hot you know i keep saying like the paris hilton i mean talk about outdated references wow you're really so i'm like in i'm like into that that's cool sarah palin paris hilton yeah what year is this i mean i mean i'm like outdated i'm like i'm like into that's this i mean I mean, who knows anymore, really. Well, so the, we, I saw this on one source and then nowhere else, and I don't know why, because this is the silliest little thing I've ever seen in my life.

But the hotel's grand opening was very over the top and very dramatic. And I think the brothers were like trying to really symbolically do this up and be like, we're going to be part of Alaska's growth from being kind of the wild west to like this big fancy luxury area. And so during the opening ceremonies of this hotel, which they had opening. ceremonies. They tied the literal front door keys to a balloon and then just let it go. And just it flew into the sky. And it was to be symbolic that the hotel would never be closed.

Until it pops on like a passing piece of trash. Until a seagull takes it or something. Yeah, really and swallows it and dies. What are you talking about? Stop it. It's until the skeleton key comes down and clunk someone on the head. Seriously. Or somebody's like, oh, cool, a key to a hotel.

Let me just try this. How about like, hey, now we don't have a key to the hotel? True. Like, did anyone make a copy? Follow that balloon. Did you ever send a balloon into outer space? Not outer space. No, I'm not Iron Man, but I don't know.

We sent a balloon at one of my birthday parties that we, like, wrote on and sent it off. You never did that. I've done, I mean, it's like a Chinese lantern situation. Yeah, yeah. Ours were probably way more ecologically disastrous. But, I mean, it was one balloon. You're really not supposed to do that. But, you know, back in 2000, whatever, 12, we didn't know that.

I have seen videos on YouTube, which feels so, I mean, it's interesting, but so reckless with your equipment. People have just tied, like, their full-ass camera on a balloon. And, like, they, like, tape a tracker onto the camera. So that way, when the balloon eventually pops and the camera comes crashing down, then you can go find the camera, but watch the footage back of it going up into the atmosphere and falling. Like that, like, literally what a drone is for? I imagine, yes, but this is like the poor man's way, I suppose. Okay, yes, I see.

The poor man's way, except then you lose your iPhone forever. Okay. Like, it falls in a fucking swamp. Good luck. Some of them are like, I guess the camera is like meant to like withstand certain atmosphere. So like you end up like getting up in the sky trip. I thought you meant you just like tie your Blackberry device to it.

And I'm like, go to a terrible idea. Okay. So you did like one of those GoPro things or something like that. GoPro, that's exactly right. I thought those were cool, but no, I've never, maybe in school once with like, was there a letter in the balloon? Like, when you find this? Yeah, so we wrote all the names of our crush. It was my 11th birthday. We wrote all the names of our crushes on a balloon. That's sinister. I love it. And sent it off it. It doesn't, it didn't seem sinister. Now that I'm literally 90% of the way through the audiobook of it, it does feel a little sinister. But at the time, it

didn't. Was it like everyone wrote it and got to crumble it up and hide it from everybody and put it in the balloon? No, no, it was on the balloon. So you just made people. for your birthday confessing crushals. Of course! I'm a Gemini! I turned 11! What do you think I'm going to do? And then, you know what else we did that day? After the bloomed we sent off, we all went around and talked about when we got our periods. And I was like, yeah, I was like, I don't know what a period is. I was 11. I was really out of the, I mean, to be fair, I was not the only girl who was like, what's going on. But I was out of my depth already at this point in middle school.

But yeah, so we all wrote our, I mean, whoever wanted to, nobody or you could use a code name. Nobody had to as you had a knife poking them in the ribs if they didn't do it. I said to, you want me to use this on you or the balloon? And so then we all wrote our crushes name. I don't even remember who mine was. I think I made one up because I don't think I had a real crush. And then we sent it off into the atmosphere. And we got a phone call from a lady in West.

From my crush. I saw what you did. We all float down here. It was from this lady in West Virginia who was like in her 30s and was like, So this landed in my yard, I just want to let you know, I found it. And she actually said I couldn't read it because it had been like popped. And I was like, that's good. Don't read it.

Honestly, this message will self-destruct in 30 seconds. Yeah, exactly. And so that was my experience with sending out a balloon. Anyways, that's all. When I hear the keys being sent away, I was like, that sounds like something dumb I would have done and then not made a copy of the keys. I, that feel, what a birthday gift to make everyone tell you their crushes. Man, that was a really good birthday.

Except for that I met my step down. that day. And by that, I mean, my mom met my stepdad that day. So that was the day that he entered my life, which, um, you know, for better or worse. So your mom should have written Tim on that balloon is what I'm having. My mom should not have, because I would have used that knife right away on that balloon. I would have popped. I would have been like, I'm not sitting this hex into the air. You know, I went when I went to Allison's family. And Tim is not the person I was strange from. I love my stepdad. But he's such just to be clear. But man, he is, he showed up with these giant ass glasses. I was like, who's that nerd? And then it turns out he's my new dad. he's you know what and nerd he is but he's a good man he's a good man um at alison's family reunion it was me and all the night owls that were left there was like three or four of us and we were all just kind of like making small talk and at some point the conversation kind of died down and like trying to make a joke i was like all right well if no one else has anything else to say we should

just tell each other our deepest dark of secrets yes this is a knives out episode i thought it was a joke They took a serious. I forgot that Allison's family takes everything very literally. And they don't see the like nuance in it. Yeah. I was like, I thought we were going to like laugh that I was trying to like break the tension of the silence in the room. And they were all like, okay.

And I went, no, no, no, no. I don't want to leave mine. So I'm like, but I was like, why are you so, it says something about you or me or me or. Yeah, I know, right. Can you share those? Hey, write them on this balloon real quick. I will say if those are their secrets,

that family's got no secrets. I know. That's always the people. though who were like, I'll share. And they're like, I can't, I can't say it. And it's like, I was like, sometimes I eat cookies after bedtime. And it's like, what? What was that movie that Amy Schumer was in where she ended up at a baby shower full of like, kind of like just more.

Yeah. I saw that on the plane. They were like, the people were like their secrets were not that incredible. And someone said like, when my husband goes to bed, I sneak a spoonful of ice cream or something. And she went, oh my God, you're so brave. Oh my God, you're so brave. Exactly. Exactly, exactly. Wow. Thanks for sharing.

Hey, remember Alaska? Okay, so... Okay, yeah, let's get back to your thing. So, again, I've pretty much said this a million times before, so you can kind of guess where I'm heading. But the hotel was in a gold mine area. It was one of the first hotels at the time. A lot of people were coming into town looking for money, and therefore the hotel, which was also often a public space at the time, became used for nefarious things, including gambling. there was a bar there during the um during prohibition it became a speakeasy um there was a quote from one of the hotels owners that said this area was a hub for every scoundrel scumbagg, legislator con man murderer thief you name it.

Hell yeah. Brother. Rock and roll. Rock and roll brother. So in during the prohibition era when it was a speakeasy they called themselves a soda cafe and I love that because I would have actually genuinely gone there for a soda. Or M would have wandered in like when you see those fronts. that are like Italian restaurants and they're like,

do we have a frozen lasagna? We can offer this person because they don't realize they're in a front. We have a front in our neighborhood and it looks like an Italian deli restaurant. And Allison went in there one time and they were like, they weren't selling sandwiches. They were like selling buckets. And she was like, I think I'm just going to leave. Yeah, I think maybe I'm not, no, not for me today. Thank you.

Well, so the hotel was also a brothel twice because of course it was. once it was an actual like I think legal everyone knew about it brothel for minors and then it became minors with an e again just to clarify because this time I'd heard the other one went what really depends on what mood I'm in if I ever say that with a smile on my face please now I'm talking about minors like grown adults right um the other time was a brothel was in the 60s or 70s when it was known as the Northlander um I think that's at least what one source told me but I don't really know much about this Northlander history. There's not a lot to find there.

And then the last thing I'm going to say about the history is that fun fact, this was, this hotel was on Hotel Impossible, like Bar Impossible or whatever that shows. Yeah. Bar Rescue? Bar Rescue. But Hotel Impossible, I think they're essentially the same thing. Is that that same guy, Tafford, whatever the fuck? I think so.

I tried to watch it. Isn't he like a terrible man? Or am I making that up? Sometimes my brother says, you can't just say everyone is terrible until you Google them and say, never mind. Because I get people's names, not Jude Law. I know who he is. but everyone else they get mixed up on.

No, you don't know who he is. I had a Christine moment recently on TikTok where there was a little child actor and I was like he looks like Jude Law and it ends up being an old interview of Jude Law. Well, first of all, fuck you. I thought you were going to say like, and it happened to me.

No, so it was on Hotel Impossible. I can't not tell you if it is produced by the same people who did Bar Rescue, but the concept's the same. I don't know who was in charge of that show. But I tried to watch it and my computer, also please write the comments what the fuck's going on with my computer but half of the youtube shows i try to watch

now i literally bought this episode to watch it do you have it just it's just a black screen like it you have a VPN i don't know what that means oh never mind you should especially if you don't know what that means um never mind we'll talk about another time okay um yeah no i'll just try to press play on things and then like i can hear it but it's just a black screen is it like are you screen recording because that happens if you try to screenshot it turns black No, but it looks like one big screen. It's just black. Like, I've tried to watch it also.

I try to use YouTube for like my Dugger content because I don't want to like buy anything. So I try to watch clips of it and even just clips of it are just black. Does it happen like on your computer or on your phone too? Just my computer. Weird. I don't know what that's about. Me either. Okay.

So let me know everybody. But anyway, it was on Hotel Impossible. I tried to watch it for you because I thought that'd be funny. And it ended up all I, all I found online about Hotel Impossible with this episode is that there ended up being a lawsuit threat later because I guess on the episode can't confirm or deny I didn't see it but on the episode I guess one of the people that work there got fired and then the guy came out later saying the producers made us do a fake firing uh that's fucked Michael Scott and Stanley it is I was insane seriously what the hell and so he tried to like for defamation like threaten a lawsuit and now on TV you're being fired and it was fake and like yeah and then like fun even if you weren't really fired you weren't really fired you're not really fired you're not really fired and it was fake and like yeah and then like even if you weren't really fired you or now anytime you go in there. People don't think you're a bad employee. Exactly.

Now you're that guy who's like targeted on the show. Yeah. So fun fact there. If anyone else gets a chance to watch it, please do. And now just for the ghosts, I want to say one of the reasons that a stranger at dinner, I don't even remember their name. Okay. I was like, are we purposefully not giving them the, okay.

No, they were very nice. Hey, listen. Some people enter your life for a footprint in a moment or what's that quote, you know, for just a moment. I'm just reciting for good from Wicked in my head now. Okay, well, sure. Do that instead. But yeah, it feels like maybe they were just meant to bring you this story and then move on.

Yes, maybe the ghosts embodied this person. Wow, that must be it. You're right. But the reason that they mentioned is because they saw that in USA Today, this was ranked one of like the best haunted hotels. Oh, that's a fun thing. Yeah, and then I looked it up. And it is, in fact, it was number five. They weren't lying.

number five best haunted hotel on a listicle of like top 10 best hotel so is it best haunted hotel or most haunted best haunted okay i like this this is fun i don't know what that means if it's like the the best hotel to stay at that also happens to be haunted that's what i'm guessing because i feel like most haunted could be like a run like the the fucking uh what's the one in l.a the um oh like cecil hotel cecil hotel and it's like well don't actually go there right but like yeah yeah yeah i feel like that this is a nice like little twist, a little spin on that. Yes, I agree. Okay.

So that's where we're standing. Perfect. So the current owner, her name is Betty Adams, although I don't know if her son Josh has officially taken over, but he also works there. But it's been in their family for over 40 years. Until he was fired in that one bar rescue. She's like the air to the hotel. They're like, fire that guy.

That would have actually been hysterical. I would have watched that. No, so Josh said that he's been, I think. I don't know about living in the hotel or at least the family has worked there since he was two years old. Oh, wow. In my mind, if you run a hotel, you also live there because the beds are funny. I mean, my parents ran. Yeah, exactly.

My parents ran a restaurant and we lived like above it, like out of a fucking Disney Channel movie. And it was like, I was working there. Like even at three, I was, I mean, working. I was like folding silverware. But it was like, oh, the kitchen staff is going to watch you for a few hours. Like, so it literally, I feel like turns into that if you're living where your parents are working. I imagine. Yeah.

So at least Josh has been there since he was two And now he seemed to be like in his like 40s. And so even the as far as I know Betty is still the current owner. But she acknowledges that the building has a lot of ghosts. I mean, they were interviewed in all the TV shows I watched on this. Her son Josh also helps run it. He is very adamant. He's probably like the ghost spokesman.

Oh, okay. Well, he's seen him since he was two. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So the main ghost here. that people know of is Alice. So the story goes that she was a hotel guest here during the gold rush with her husband, who was a minor.

Guess what happened? He never showed up and left her there. But a different twist on her being a lady in insert color. Usually it's that she's like a jilted bride. They were already married. He said he was only going to be gone for three weeks in the mines, but then he never came back. And so she had to stay at the hotel because she couldn't afford.

How are you going to leave? how are you going to pay to get out of here? And so because it was a seedy kind of situation downstairs all the time, the lobby was full of nefarious folks, the way that she decided to survive financially was take up a job as a sex worker. Wow. Can you imagine though like, oh my,

at what point do you think to yourself, shit, my husband's never coming back. This is the only way out. Like that's fucking terrible. So she ended up, you know, doing what she had to do. And eventually her husband came back. Oh, I was going to say, but at least that didn't happen.

Nope, nope, nope. Apparently the husband came back and there seemed to be a big old fight because the story goes, he found out what she was up to and then in a jealous rage decided to kill her. You are the fucker who disappeared? What are you supposed to do? She was trying to survive. Where were you? She was doing what she needed to.

It sounds like fun. It sounds like she was having a fucking riotous old time. It sounds like she did not. want to be doing these things but she had no money so what else is she to do um so anyway that happened in room 219 um and i think the room next door 218 is also haunted by her they both seem to have similar activity going on um there have been people who will flee in the middle of the night and they will tell uh the staff quote she's in my room oh no send her to the other room through that there's one next door yeah custody between the two guests please

You deal with her than me. Just at least split your time. Guests would see her sitting on their bed. They would see her in mirrors. They would see her walk past and then vanish. They would feel her touching them. People have also seen her coming down the stairs to the bar. Everyone's got to do that every now and then.

And some people have even woken up in the middle of the night to her floating above them. Gasp. I know I've said that in similar stories, but it's never not horrible. You know, and it happens enough that I'm like, okay, this is clearly a thing. Like one I don't want to experience, but like clearly it's a thing. Like whether it's a sleep paralysis thing or whatever, it's like no, no, no, no. Part of me feels like it has to be sleep paralysis because why are so many ghosts signing up to just float over people? It's like repeated like that, the people sitting on your chest, the hat man in the doorway.

I'm not saying they're not real things. I'm just saying I think they happen a lot during sleep paralysis. And it's like, why? People say that she is in a translucent gown. People have also just heard her voice speaking to them. and she's very active with ghost sending equipment, especially spirit boxes and ovulus, anywhere where she can talk.

She's like tech savvy. I love it. I love it too. Women in STEM. So many teams have come in and have been able to talk to Alice specifically. And in one show called Alaska Triangle, where they only cover Alaska creepy stuff,

they had a sensitive, a sensitive, I don't know what the right word is, a sensitive. I mean, I think they can probably decide if they're a psychic medium or some people just say they were a sensitive yeah that's what i heard on the show so that's oh yeah it would just do that then um his name was jeff and he came in and kind of just cold red the hotel and he got he had this like flash in his head of a date july 12th 1921 and then he decided to turn on the obulus and he the first word he got was july gasp horrific so she's like screaming in his ear he's like yeah

july july july july july and then he turns on wow so he asked uh to the spirits he was like is that the day that you the person I'm speaking to, and then the ovulus said Alice. I like that this ghost is like, I'm cutting straight to the chase. I'm not because I say yes. I'm not fucking around. I'm not going to give you my fucking name. I'm giving you as much info with as little words as possible. Exactly.

Smart, smart, smart. And as someone who is used in obulus, you know, you can't control those things. Like there's, in fact, I don't even know how they fucking work. No, there, I don't, there's no manipulating it to say the words you want. No, unfortunately. And it's eerie how it just immediately went to Alice. And it'll say some weird fucking things, by the way. Apple.

Apple. He said, why are you here? And the obelisk said, hell. Uh-oh. And then he asked, are you in hell? And then the obelisk just kept saying Alice. I don't like that. At all.

No. Later on, he asked, did you die in the room 219? And then the obelisk was saying poltergeists. And then it just kept saying Alice again. Very horrible. This is weird. Okay. in the show Portals to Hell

starring Jack Osborne classic this was actually their pilot episode was going to this hotel oh I think I've seen this then I mean years ago but well so he uses a spirit box

or I guess hang a little bit that I like it he's a firsty rat he when he drinks he drinks the whole bowl it's very embarrassing he's a gulp gulper

he's like me he's like me hang on I'll take this time to refill. Unfortunately, though, when I do take a break, I have to go downstairs to pee because my toilet is busted. I'm almost done, though. Is he almost done? Okay, yes. So in the episode, Portals to Hell, Jack, I don't remember the name of his partner in crime

over here, but I don't either. She decided to stay in Alice's room. She turned on the spirit box and multiple times got Alice. Ew. multiple times. And then the only other word that she seemed to get, at least multiple times, was the word rape. Uh-oh, uh-oh, uh-oh, uh-oh. Which led them to theorize that maybe Alice was never a sex with her. Right.

I was wondering that, even in the beginning. But was at the hotel still waiting for her husband and then something non-consensual was happening to her. But she had nowhere else to go because she couldn't afford to leave. And what are you going to do? mean really like you're stuck and then her husband came and decided to blame it on her right exactly yeah close tale is old as time tail as old as a lady in white you know what i'm saying i i do actually almost 500 episodes and i think 499 have a lady in white in them um so in the year 2007 which does not feel that long ago in my mind there's no such thing as ghosts that came from the 2000s it is hard to believe well in 2007 um when

the Adams family. Oh, I didn't realize that they run this place. And the at, okay, go on. I was like, they're called the Osbournes. And then I went, wait a minute. I literally was thinking about the Osbournes and you said the

Adams family and I went, you mean the Osborne family? And now I'm like, wait a minute. I'm all mixed up. Okay. The Adams. Gotcha. The Adams family. That's hysterical.

I don't know why that play on words hasn't happened before. Oh, man. So in 2007, while the Adams family happened to own this place, there was a Navy sailor who came off his ship and decided to stay the night here. And he asked for the most haunted hotel room that they had. Okay. And this is 07. 2007. Okay.

And this is like the era when we presumably could have gone somewhere and been like, oh, let's stay in the most haunted room. Like, this is making it a little too modern. You were 16. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Is that right? Yeah.

Yeah. Yes. And so he wanted to be in the most haunted room. And so they gave him a room I have not discussed yet, which is room 315. Okay. Now, his story seems to have overshadowed what was going on before 2007 in that room. Because nobody anymore talks about what that room was like and why it was so haunted. So it, oh, but so they gave him, right.

Okay. So, but it was haunted presumably because they gave him this room. saying it's the most haunted. Okay. Oh no. All we know is that this room was apparently the most haunted room and yet there's no information online before his story that helps us understand why it was so haunted because his story is so wild. Right. I mean, who would have thought like, oh, I asked for the most haunted room now I'm going to become the story. That's fucking horrible. It's exactly right. So in 315, apparently it was already haunted. We don't know any more than that. But this guy decided to stay there. And a lot of people attribute it to the fact that he had just

been on a ship for a very long time and that does a lot mental health-wise. Or it could have been because the place was so haunted that he was seeing something. Well, never know. But shortly after checking in, people started hearing screaming in his room. As if there was somebody else there. In fact, people report saying they thought to people were in the room. My God. Okay.

The screaming he was doing was pretty much him just repetitively saying, help, let me out of here and stop. what the fuck at some point something happened where you could hear glass breaking um which this is all also on um a police recorder i'm not gonna say police cam it was like an like a tape recorder it was but it the cops that ended up showing up have it on recording and i did hear some of it um you can hear him screaming help and then you hear glass cracking and um by the time the cops were able to get in because he had locked himself in there. By the time they got in, he had jumped out of the window.

But before the or assuming the glass was him breaking the window first before him like throwing himself out. Because after we heard glass cracking, he had maybe intentionally cut himself or maybe accidentally cut himself.

But whatever happened, there was a lot of blood and he used the blood to write help on the walls. holy shit is it and whoa holy shit and then jumped out the window what the fuck and by the time the cops got there he had already jumped out of the window but the blood wasn't just on the walls it was on the ceiling on the floors on the bed it was everywhere and we don't know if that was something he wanted or didn't want but the fact that he now has written it on the walls makes a whole element to it this is so sad um when he jumped out the window usually

you would think like into an alley or something but the building right next to this hotel is literally like this far apart like you can touch the other wall when you're standing in the room you can touch the other wall to the other building oh no so the quote alley was so thin that he could barely successfully even fall and so he kind of in chunks slid down he was like wedged in there yes and so as he did as gravity slowly dropped him down he also broke all the windows on the floors below him um so then a lot of the quotes that i saw were people remembering like we thought we heard screaming upstairs and then our window busted open and we saw a person falling i mean this is nightmare nightmare fuel yeah so obviously that has taken over what the hauntings beforehand um and i mean it's presumably

i mean i don't know if it's related but he asked for a haunted room so it seems like at least least it was on his mind, you know, that something was haunted, whether or not this was, yeah. Yeah. And they, and also people are like, oh, well, with mental health, maybe he, there could have been a reason, like he thought he could be closer to voices or talk. Yeah, who knows. Yeah, exactly. A part of another realm. I don't know. It could have been something like that. Maybe he just was fine, went into a haunted room, got possessed. I mean, it could be any theory of one. But it sounds like there was a mental health crisis going on personally. Yeah. Yes.

So, anyway, some of that audio was played on the Portals to Hell episode. And a lot of articles didn't say this, so I'm going to say it. I only saw it in one article because everybody kind of just ends the story there. It's like he fell and hit every window on the way down. He was covered in blood. The room was covered in blood. You then, you must, one would assume. He's dead.

Somehow this guy survived and was medevacked and I think ended up surviving. I mean, I think the only reason he survived is that he didn't fall straight down. Yeah, I agree. I think he kind of just scooted down. Yeah. But nobody talks about whether he survived or not. They just like tell you the bloody part. And I think for like dramatic effect, leave out that he actually survived it.

So he did survive it. We don't know what happened afterwards. Yeah, he's in this alley to this day. Like, oh my God, let me know what happened. Well, in that article I saw the cops were like, we can't even. get in there to get him because it was so thin no one could scoot in sideways like so narrow between buildings which also like that's alarming because who knows what people are thrown down there and what's yeah or like animals that are in there animals and dead things um but apparently

i guess he was a thinner guy and somehow was able to crawl himself out and then they medevaced him once he got out between the buildings did he is there any update like did he ever say what the hell happened no Jesus. Which like, imagine surviving it and then finding out that you're the story of that hotel. I know. And you're like, oh, fuck, dude. I hope he's okay.

Yeah. He might have just been like having a bad day, you know? Some episode or something, yeah. Well, he was having a bad day. I think we could all agree. He was having a very bad day. I think, and before he even got to the hotel, it sounds like a bad day was forming. Yeah.

Right, right, right. So. Jesus. But yeah, he survived. at least that's what this one article said and no one else, no one said anything about him dying, so. And they probably would have if it's a ghost story, so just to say that. Right.

Usually they do emphasize that part when they're telling a ghost story at these places, yeah. And so I think what, I think they were letting people believe, like, for the flair of it all that he died, but still the energy is something to discuss. So like something really insane happened there. I don't want to stay in that room, whether he lived or died, I don't think I want to stay in that room because it just is upsetting. look at the wall in the window and to know what happened up there. Yeah, it's horrible. When you're sleeping and look at the ceiling, I know there was blood dripping from it. And like the window, you're like, oh, imagine throwing yourself out the, like, I don't think

mentally I'd be fit to stay in that, or like would want to stay in that room. To even open the window to look down there if you were feeling like in a creepy mood, like, I wouldn't even want to touch the window. It's really that thing of like, would you wear a murderer shirt or something? Yeah, that thing that we invented, that you invented so many years ago. I still think about it. I know. And it's a great.

metaphor. I don't know why it hasn't caught on because I feel like I mean the answer again is no I don't I would not and I would not go in that room. It's just a shirt but it's the energy. I'm not into it. No. Um, anyway, so although he did not die, the energy has stayed in the house. We're now, um, super creepy. People have heard a man screaming for help, um, even though nobody is. See, I've heard that. That, that's a thing that can happen. What, what was that somewhere we went? I don't know. Can't remember if it was somewhere we went or somewhere. in Cincinnati. Check your subscription to, no, that was an ad. M accidentally subscribed to

Cincinnati.com. And we talked about it in a rocket money ad, but Em like was literally reading me like the little news blast. I was like, oh, you get to know all the updates. No, but I can't remember if it was from a ghost tour I did here or if I was with you, but it was like the story, or maybe it was in Salem when we did that ghost time, but it was like the story of this person who was attacked literally might be a Jim Harold story, but the person who was attacked and then, like, that scene replays even though the person is in prison and is, like, alive.

But, like, people witness it all the time. So it's like, so eerie that you can. Yeah. That falls into my, like, belief about, like, how, like, time isn't real and all that. Yes. Time's a loop. Because the fact that you can be alive and haunting something already is so fucking crazy. Like, you can be residually in two places because you've already been there.

Are you, yeah, it's freaky. It's so weird. Beggs the question. Beggs the question. What if this guy who was met a back? Would you wear a murder shirt? If that guy decided to come back and say in 315, what the fuck would happen? I don't think they'd let him.

You're not welcome. Well, supervised. Just kidding. No, I'm just kidding. But yeah, like, would it end the haunting? Like, do they need to find each other in some weird way? Or, like, would it, would the haunting be even stronger because he was there and he's attached to it?

Right. So would it, like, amplify it? Right. or would it null it out, like negate it? Yeah, it's really freaky because it is, it is that it becomes like timelines and energy. And, oh my God, yeah, then your head starts to hurt. Then it's like spiritual calculus all of a sudden.

Oh, man. I mean, I stop at microeconomics. So he discussed. So, okay, the people hear someone saying, help me. But the really creepy one was that one time this woman who works at the front desk, heard help me and then check the security cameras. And all 12 security cameras caught help me. Like throughout the hotel, all 12.

Oh, ew. So it's like... Resinating through the holes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like in the air. Uh-uh. So now the room 315, they don't even rent it out to people unless it's requested. And I saw someone say, like, they'll give it to you if it's the only available room left, which I love.

They're like, fake the scraps. I actually hate it because I'm like, honestly, I'd rather you just say, no, we don't have a room. Yeah, yeah. If I didn't know about it. Well, so another ghost that's here. This is the last ghost I think I'm going to talk about, is that in 1988, up until this point, the hotel used to run out hot tub access. In what year? In the 80s.

That's hilarious. I love this for them. 80s luxury. Even weirder is that it was in the basement and like it looks like a basement. Like it doesn't look like you're in a hotel on the bottom floor. It looks like you're in someone's like your grandpa's storage unit basement. Oh, no. And there's just a hot tub sitting there.

and like when you look to your left and right, you're just in a cellar. Like, it's very eerie. Okay, because, like, I've stayed in places when I was a kid that, like, where we would go, like, skiing and then, like, the hot tubs would be, like, outside looking at the mountain or whatever the fuck. But this is, like, in the basement. Literally. The last guy, I imagine you have beautiful views and, like, wow, okay.

You're, like, your basement. Like, the one, the underground basement. We don't want a hot tub down there. No, no, no, no. You know, the only difference between your basement and this basement was that this one had cement on the floor, but that was it. And a hot tub. Which you're already like winning.

But like, yeah, you don't need to put, you don't need to even sit in a chair in my basement a little over a hot tub. No. We don't need to be alive in your basement. You don't want to be half naked down there, really, you don't. But so I guess at the time they were like, well, we've got a hot tub. Do you want it or not? I mean, I guess in the 80s, you got to find a hot tub somewhere. Sure.

So there was this guy named Charlie who rents it out a hot tub. And we don't know what happened. Maybe he drowned or something. But tiny little Josh who lived there, I think. or at least his mom worked there, found him floating in the hot tub. Yikes. Okay, thank God that's not something.

Like, that's scary. Like, your parents were like, go check on that one guest who's using the hot tub and tell him it's time to go. And it's like, you don't know what you're accidentally putting this kid through. Yeah. So, um,

Josh did say, and maybe it has something to do with, like, his own trauma and seeing that so early and yeah, thinking about death. Well, Josh said that the basement is now demonic and has heavy poltergeist activity. And we don't know if that's because of his experience down there or because he, I mean, he really saw, he literally saw a dead body down there. Right. So, like, it's already troubling to him no matter what.

Yes, exactly. But he is claiming that there's, like, something even darker. Okay. I mean, I believe him. He also says whatever is down there does not like women and we'll try to hurt them, which I guess would fit into the. category of nefarious, no good doers, rapists, etc. And he said there's another ghost down there that will aggressively let people know he doesn't want them there. And he made it sound like ever since this guy Charlie died down there,

that's when it's all started. So then he's kind of implying that Charlie is the demon. But in the same breath, he said, oh no, Charlie is the only human spirit down there. Everyone else is a demon. Oh, good. He just activated everything. And now, okay, cool. Josh even said that they have had priest and exorcist down there to try to help, but nothing has helped. And then he even said that he has seen horned figures and silhouettes down there. What? Stop going down there, Josh. I don't want you down there anymore. If I were your parent, I'd be like, you're never allowed to go down there, which probably would make you go down there more. But what, um, is a hot, this is probably irrelevant. I really want to know.

Is a hot tub still down there? I don't think so. I didn't see it down there. Because that feels like so ominous to still have like a dusty old hot tub down there, you know. That had a dead body in it. Okay. It did have a dead body. They probably got rid of it. They probably got rid of it. I don't know.

Also, I imagine having to lift that out from the basement as like Blaze lifting a toilet upstairs through flights. Oh, funny you say that. Because real quick, I got a message a little while ago that says 20 minutes ago, I made a huge mistake. Oh, my God. Which, by the way, I don't, Blaze is the only one when I have Do Not Disturb on that, like, goes through. So I just see, I made a huge mistake. and I'm like, what? And then it says, I didn't check how much the toilets weighed.

I assumed they would be 30 to 40 pounds or something. They are fucking 104 pounds each. They're solid porcelain blaze. I don't even know how I got them into this fucking car. Oh my God. Good luck. I love that. He was like, well, I'm not going to return them.

I'm just going to bring them. This is why he and I are like terrible and great together because we're like, okay, just bring them home and we'll just figure it out. I feel like he's going to carry the whole thing up and you're just going to follow behind holding the lid. And you're like, this is really hard. You can do it. I believe in you. No, go to the left.

No, no. Pivot. Pivot. So, basically during the show Portals to Hell, Josh was saying that there's, like, a lot of bad stuff in this basement. He was saying that there had been ritual activity that happened down there at some point and that he even admitted to also having conjured spirits in this hotel. During the investigation.

He conjured spirits. Don't do that. During the investigations. I'm going to talk. Okay. But during the, okay, fair, yeah. Well, during them, he, the, the investigators asked if Josh had accidentally invited something in that was negative due to his ritual activity.

Oh, I see. And the machines all went off. And he was like, oopsie, Daisy. Whoops, that's not me. Sorry, I found a dead fucking body. I'm allowed to cope however I want. I, look, at the end of the episode, Josh also then tells them that he both willingly and unwillingly in separate occasions was a part of, quote,

diabolical rituals in the hotel. Diabolical. What the fuck is that supposed to me? He said, I didn't think they were dark or like evil. Diablo means devil. Hello, welcome to the club. He said not evil, but diabolical, basically. Like evil times two.

He told this story of like how one of his exes' moms practiced like dark witchcraft and like somehow used him in a ritual and he didn't know about it. It was like a crazy story. And I was like, you should have led with this. Why is this the last minute before the show ends? That's why we drink at gmail.com because that seems like a good listener story. Well, so then. Yeah, the last minute.

He's like, I was used to a ritual. Like 60 seconds later was the credits. I was like, why are we only bringing us up now? They were probably like, we don't really want to lead with that. It makes you look a little bit like wakadoo. You know what I mean? The girl at the end, the investigator who was not Jack Osborne, when he was telling this to them, she was like, well, that's the last piece of the puzzle we were missing.

Yeah. No, like, okay. Got it. Checks out. well so other than that people say that um the dishes in the bar move by themselves the stereo system turns on by itself and plays techno music of all things hey um the towels and the towels um the towels um the towels um the towels uh both people woke up at four a m in different rooms to like different activities to like different activities going on super creepy um people get palpitations they feel hands crawling up their legs at night oh one woman walked into the bathroom and when she came back out she was in a totally different time period and building it was like she totally warped i have that like i dream like i dream of that happening

like please when eva when the when the the car ran out of gas and i could hear eva going it's happening it's happening it's happening exactly like it's happening it's happening i mean oh my god i would just kill for that. I could see you going, it's happening. If we went into a haunted house together and you walked out and you looked like you were in a trance and you were just chanting, it's happening, I would know exactly what's happening. You'd be like, to film this, Eva, right now. I'd be like, we're not even, I'm not even going to stop it from happening because I need you to tell me what later. Actually, you'd be like, it's happening. Eva, it's happening. Everyone's just saying it together like a ritual. And he was like, we ran out of gas again. So the last thing I'm going to say is a quote of what I

think is the creepiest thing that's happened here. On one article I saw someone say, a former employee who worked in the basement once saw a man walking around down there alone and she turned to look at the monitor and his face was suddenly right in front of the security camera. Like a horror movie. Like a horror movie. No. That's the last thing of it. So sorry that was so long, but that is the Alaskan Hotel and Bar slash Northlander Hotel. Okay. So is this place fancy? Like I feel like if USA Today is calling it like the best hotel to stay in, is it like it's not fancy. It's not like super fancy. I mean, the hot tub in the basement didn't scream fancy to me. No, it's not. I think that's the vibe you should run with when you think about the rest of the hotel.

Got it. Oh, you froze. Oh, yeah, you froze too. Can you see me? Am I moving? Oh, you're good now. But it's like five seconds late. Hey, M, it says ad live, how much you like to talk about your pet and how much you love them. Okay. Well, who wants you go first? You have three. I have one. Together we make four. With Eva, it's about a thousand. Yeah. And we are big old animal fans over here, which is why we would like to let you know that we have a quick message from today's sponsor the ASPCA pet health insurance program.

Yes, of course, all our pets are part of the family. You do pretty much anything for them. But the vet bills, yeah, is that. Okay, they hurt. We're going on Monday, not looking forward to that bill. That is why it's worth checking out ASPCA pet health insurance. Pet insurance can help manage the vet bill so you can focus on what really matters, making sure your pet gets the care they need when they need it. And the program offers a customizable accident and illness plans, making it easier to get your pet the care that they may need. It's been around for almost 20 years and has covered nearly a million pets in that time. To explore coverage, visit ASPCA pet insurance.com slash drink. That's ASPCA pet insurance.com slash drink. Eligibility restrictions apply. Visit ASPCA

pet insurance.com slash Amazon terms for more info. This is a paid advertisement. Insurance is under by either Independence American Insurance Company or United States Fire Insurance Company and produced by PTZ Insurance Agency Limited. The ASPCA is not an insurer and is not engaged in the business of insurance. Hey, have you ever had any issues with your finances? Literally, don't look at me. I one time for a story I was covering about your hometown, Christine, I accidentally subscribed to the Cincinnati like inquire or something.

And for years, I was paying for a Cincinnati magazine that I've never touched. Oh, okay. Hey, you should have put my address. I should have. I could use that. So, okay, we have to say the sponsors is Rocket Money and they have helped us so much because really, these are true stories.

This is a real thing that happens. I know this insanity. I've had that issue before, but I actually live here so at least I got some use out of it. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. You can talk about it all day. And we might.

And we might. So I'm just going to keep it sweet for you, but Rocket Money has really saved me and it saved my wallet. It saved my, I mean, on top of all of it, I like to spend my money doing other things, except not reading the Cincinnati bulletin or whatever it is. The bulletin, now it's what, now it's a pamphlet on the corner. Now I finally have money to spend on, like, magazines in my hometown.

You know what I'm like? The next add the terms and conditions are going to be like, do not mention the Cincinnati Inquirer by name, please. Let Rocket Money help you reach your financial goals faster. Join at RocketMoney.com slash drink. That's rocketmoney.com slash drink. rocket money.com slash drink. I am covering part two of the Fort Worth Trio today.

And I do have a previously on for everybody except them because M actually remembers. I barely remember the world, probably barely remember. So I'm going to read you a little previously on and then we'll get back to the case. So previously on and that's where a drink last week. By the way, you should probably go listen to it because it probably still won't make sense if you're starting here. On December 23rd, 1974, just two days before Christmas, Rachel Trellisa, 17, Renee Wilson, 14, and Julianne Mosley, 9, went to Seminary South Shopping Center in Fort Worth, Texas for what was supposed to be just a quick shopping trip for last-minute Christmas gifts, but they were never seen again. That night, Rachel's car was found locked and seemingly untouched in the Sears parking lot, which is the top level of the garage.

Police initially assumed the girls were runaways, despite the fact that this was an important. promptu trip. They'd left behind the car and new clothing and there was this random nine-year-old that wasn't supposed to be even on the mall shopping trip. The next morning, a handwritten letter appeared in Rachel's mailbox addressed to her husband. In what seemed to be Rachel's handwriting, it claimed the girls had gone to Houston. And the letter raised immediate questions. First of all, it came the morning after. It was Christmas Eve morning and they disappeared the evening before. So it was already like, how did that happen? It appeared in Rachel's, 's handwriting, but the zip code was blurred and the three was backwards, which was strange.

Right. It formally addressed her husband Tommy as Thomas A. Trellisa, which she almost never used. The envelope was written in pencil and the note inside was written in pen. And the spot where she wrote her name, Rachel, somebody had gone back over and fixed the last letter, which had been written as an E and was fixed to an L. So it originally had two E's, and then somebody kind of wrote over it and wrote an L. So just some strange things. In the days I followed, the families endured all sorts of bullying and pranks, false sightings, cruel prank calls. One moment that still haunts the case, which was January 7th, Julie's mother, the nine-year-old's

mother, answered the phone and heard a little girl say mama, and she has always believed that was her daughter. Sorry about that. It's horrible. With no physical evidence and no clear suspects, a Fort with Trio vanished and was never seen again. And to this day, people are like pulling their hair out, trying to figure out what is going on here.

So for part two, I'm going to start with dynamics a little closer to home. Let's talk about Rachel's husband, Tommy, because of course, people immediately side-eyed the husband in every case, let alone when a 17-year-old girl is married to a 22-year-old. Who has already been divorced with a kid, right? Correct. Divorce with a kid and we'll get to it, but there is even more drama. Yes.

So I don't know. Maybe I didn't mention it last week. Tommy, who was 22, Rachel's 17. They'd been married only six months when she disappeared. He had put in $1,000 of reward money when Rachel disappeared, but then retracted it a few months later. Then in April of the following year, so 15 months after her disappearance, he filed for divorce from Rachel, which struck.

many as a little bit jarring, given that she was still missing and not declared dead. That decision prompted people to take a closer look at Tommy's personal history, and people found a pattern that some have, like, kind of clung onto as proof, and others have said it's just like bad judgment from a young guy. Okay. But I'll give you the timeline. So in 1971, three years before Rachel vanished, when he was 19, Tommy married Sean and like you said, had a son, Sean.

in April of 1974, Tommy filed for divorce from Shawna and just 43 days later he married Our Girl Rachel. But what complicates the timeline is that during that 43-day period where he divorced his first wife and married Rachel, he was engaged to another woman. But not just any woman. He had been engaged to Rachel's older sister Deborah. Oh. Who...

That's not funny. Lived with them at the time of Rachel's disappearance. Like you so no you didn't mention any of this last week and I okay so clearly I didn't because you would have remembered yeah I don't know I would I remember you specifically saying at the end I think I'm going I'm going to next week discuss Tommy and maybe how Deborah's involved yes okay so I made sure not to bring it up because it is a fucking excellent storytelling Christine but like what the fuck but so okay so when you talk to debor about it she basically has said and claimed and I want to give her all the credit and independent she deserves saying this, but she said it was just like a little casual thing. Like we were together, we got engaged, but not really. Like it was sort of like the 70s.

Like maybe he just wanted to sleep with these girls. I don't know. People have thrown out different reasonings why he's engaged to all these girls. But it is a little bit troubling that like she lived with her sister and her sister's new husband when her sister's new husband. been when her sister's new husband was her ex-fiance. Yeah, when did this? Only 40 days ago or whatever.

When did this begin? Like, was he sleeping with both from at the same time? Was there- So there's been so much speculation. And, like, we don't know, which, of course, sucks. But, like, people have their opinions, right? And they're going to have their opinions. But, yeah, we don't know.

We have heard that Rachel and her sister were in some company that may have been, like, more dangerous than the company the other girls kept. So maybe Rachel was the target of this. We don't really know. But we do know that Tommy had kind of like at best an unstable kind of history with relationships. So he married Rachel 43 days after filing from the mother of his child, Shawna. But in between that was engaged to Rachel's older sister.

But that's like it's not just hooking up with Deborah and then hooking up with Rachel. But like, that's already messed up. But it might be because it's the 70s, you know? So, like, maybe in their heads they were like, we're engaged. That's why we can do it. And then, like, maybe it was like, okay, we don't really actually want to get married. We just wanted to have, you know, like, some people have posited that. And I'm like, I could see that.

But still, it's still fucking weird to, like, live with your sister's new husband. I mean, it's a lot. No matter how chill these sisters are with each other and each other's sex lives, there has to be at least one. moment of a lick of insecurity from Deborah when he has seen the other sister going down the hall and all of a sudden now wants to hook up with that one and now they're getting married and now they're getting married so like she was worth it and not you that would be like the first obvious thing that someone could feel like she claims they had no hard feelings they broke up she was in a different relationship

at this point so like okay you know but like it it on the surface only a month ago I would still think about it maybe I'm just putting on the surface though it doesn't look good because on the surface all of us are like whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. And like, yeah, maybe they're the two sisters in the world who don't have any beef over this and they just would never. But like, most people, I think, would have at least passing thoughts or insecurities or whatever it might be, some sort of emotional reaction to this. I don't know. But I don't want to like, everyone claims no, right? But like some people, a lot of people are like, well, this is still a little strange.

100%. So. Anyway, on that note, he had not just been engaged to any woman. He had been engaged to Rachel's older sister Deborah. And at the time of Rachel's disappearance, three of them were roommates. They lived together. I know it's messy. It's messy.

It's not good. It's not a good look. You did such an excellent job of not telling us this last week. I sort of feel like I should have, though, because I feel like now this is kind of a, like, I should have, like, given it as the climax. My judgment would have been totally skewed last week. So interesting. Okay. So some people point to Tommy's relationship timeline.

About 15 months after Rachel vanished, now we're going forward in time, Tommy finalized his divorce from her, which seemed like relatively soon to some people, especially because he filed his divorce in April and then that December. So about two years after his wife disappeared, he married another 17-year-old. This time her name is Joseph. feeding back. This guy won't quit. I know.

And they also got divorced by June of 1978. Do you imagine being 25 and having three divorcese? I know. Like, stop. Just stop. He's lucky. He's lucky. Only has one fucking kid out of all those marriages.

Like, this is messy, really. And like, if your second wife disappear, I'm not blaming him at all. I actually don't think he's involved. But, like, to have like this many. I mean, it's messy, dude. Just date. them like just stop marrying them i mean i don't know i don't know if that wasn't i know i know i know so i know it's hard to say because like it's the 70s it's taxes i don't fucking know i have no

i don't really have cultural understanding so yeah of this uh so whatever people argue on it about it online people like i swear to god i found arguments for everything it was like it was the 70s the post office delivered everything by the same night and then like i saw post like, no, in the 70s, the post office was slow as hell, especially during Christmas and like things would arrive three weeks late. So like the letter that got delivered to their mailbox couldn't have been. But it's like then somebody says, I lived in Texas in the 70s and like stuff was delivered overnight all the time. And it's like who the fuck am I supposed to believe anymore? You know, like it just feels like everybody has a differing opinion on how things were. Yeah,

and what was normal. So it's just very confusing. So he married a 17 year old Josephine Beck about two years after Rachel's disappearance. Then by June of 1978, that marriage also ended. And then less than three months after that, he married 23-year-old Ruby Fox, whom he also later divorced,

before eventually marrying his current wife, Linda, with whom he has now been with for roughly 40 years. So you know what? He finally found one. Linda fucking is the one, I suppose. Linda, I don't know how you didn't have cold feet about that, but I'm so glad that you pulled through.

Good for you. So for some folks, of course, raised questions and probably eyebrows, but to others, it was just poor judgment, like, whatever, he's just a young guy. Still, it means that Tommy remains like a focal point when people discuss this case. Over the years, theories emerged suggesting that Tommy may have had some involvement in Rachel's disappearance, but nothing's ever been proven. There's really not much evidence to suggest this. Law enforcement has never charged him in connection with the case or anything even close. But, of course, the theories persist, especially because we really just don't

know what happened to the girls. So it's like the theories can go off in any tangent, abduction, serial killer, the husband did it. You could go, the sister at something. I mean, you could go in every direction and just go, go, go, because there really is no verifiable proof of anything. So even the girls' families, the other, the other girls' families have made statements kind of side-eyeing Tommy. So Renee Wilson's, Renee is the 14-year-old who went along, who's Rachel's friend and went along for the shop. shopping trip. Renee Wilson's father at one point said, I got it in my head that him Tommy and Deborah were involved. And until the police finds someone who stands up and tells me to my face,

they did it, then I'm going to have that on my mind. Quite a few parents died with that thought. So a lot of people wonder until their dying day, essentially, whether Tommy had something to do with it. And I will say, and I know I did hint at this in the last episode, the brides, the brother Rusty. Now Rusty's yeah okay yeah he's the 11 he was 11 years old when his sister rachel disappeared. Deborah the sister who had been engaged to Tommy was 19 Rachel was 17 and rusty was 11 okay and he remembers going to the mall and like going store to store asking if anybody had seen his sister um he over the years got really uh I don't even want to say invest in the case. Like it really took over his life. I don't blame him. I would also be losing my mind.

And especially like at age 11, you feel so helpless, right? And then like you get older and you want to bring closure to your parents or to yourself or to the, I mean, it's got to be just a nightmare. Like a nightmareish draw. Yeah. So he connected with this PI who had kind of taken on the case pro bono. It wasn't really asked to. I don't think he just kind of like decided to pursue it. And his name was Dan James. And remember I talked about a PI from last week, in last week's episode, who passed away from a ruled suicide and his entire library of evidence had been burned. Just all his research had been burned.

Totally forgot about that. So we have a different PI here. This is Dan James. And Dan, according to Rusty's sister, Deborah, Dan James kind of infiltrated Rusty's head with all these ideas that were, according to. her patently ridiculous. He basically, or she basically accuses P.I. of putting all these ideas in Rusty's head and, you know, that Rusty's vulnerable and he

fell for all these ideas. The ideas being not only that Tommy may have had something to do with it, but that Deborah herself may have been involved as well, or at least known more than she let on. And as you can imagine, this created like a huge rift in the family, especially the mother just felt like already she lost her daughter. now her son and daughter are like, you know, at odds and he thinks she had something to do with it. I mean, it was just a lot of heartache. Rusty's fixation shaped most of his adult life in one Fort Worth weekly profile, which was like very extensive, very well done.

His sister's disappearance is described as something that has consumed him entirely. He even wrote a song for Rachel titled In Memory of You. And I'm going to read you two lines from this song. The lyrics read, you weren't just my sister. You are my best friend. You taught me my first guitar chords with your guiding hands. Now, Deborah stood up for herself in a written rebuttal, also in the same piece, that rejected his entire version of events and insisted his obsession with the case had torn the family apart.

She said, quote, Rachel didn't teach you to play guitar. I did. She didn't even know how to play guitar. You have an uncontrollable need for things to be the way you need them to be, not the way they were. end quote. So she is like, fuck off. You're putting me in the center of this. I know you're hurting, but like I didn't have anything to do with it.

I'm hurting too. You're tearing the family apart, blaming me for this. Like, just a mess. And I want to also clarify, like, Tommy and Deborah never got back together. Like, it's not like they, after this got married and ran away together. Like, they never got back together or anything like that because people do wonder. But yeah, so for years, these disputes kind of fractured the family. And Rusty was so, like, often trying to get the word out that this became, his side of the story became really well known because he's going on local news and he's trying to keep the case alive.

But he's also saying, like, I think my sister had something to do with it. So he's really propagating this idea that, like, things were closer to home, you know? I mean, I can see both sides because if she really didn't do anything and he's just constantly implying that she's a bad person, you know. And she, and like, again, like, it sucks to say this, but like, he was 11. Like, right. And she and her sister were 17, 19 were very close. And it's like, that must be so painful to be like, you think I did this. You weren't even, you didn't even know, who taught you guitar, you know?

Like, I imagine it's just such a frustrating experience. And I will say that supposedly in 2020, they reconnected and like have kind of, uh, I was about say split the difference. That's not right. They've kind of, they're at a neutral, at a neutral. Yeah. Okay.

What do you say? They blank their differences. They, now I've lost my brain. Welcome to my brain. They've reconciled. They've settled their differences. They've set aside their differences. Okay, so apparently there's 16 things I could have said that would have worked.

So that's, that's, I didn't think of any of them between us. Fantastic for us. Yes. Okay. So they've apparently set aside their differences and have like reconnected, which we don't have many details on that, but we can only hope. Sure.

So now I want to get into kind of the theories of what could have possibly happened to these girls because as we recall, the car was found. No sign of the girls ever discovered, which is pretty abnormal for an abduction in broad daylight at a shopping mall two days before Christmas. I mean, it's just ridiculous. But so we have a couple theories here that are kind of related to witness sightings, that kind of thing. So one theory, which I did mention, a store clerk came forward around the time of the girl's disappearance and said that a woman, an elderly woman, had told her that she had seen the girls

at the mall that day. The woman reported that she saw three girls being, quote, hustled into a yellow pickup truck near Buddy's grocery store at the mall. The truck was described do have lights on top of it. So perhaps like a security pickup truck, something like that. So not only did that store clerk say it, but I think either one or two additional store clerks said, oh, this elderly woman came up and told me this story. Like they independently said that. Wasn't there another woman who said something about how she saw a random person also hanging out with them? So there are two other sightings. So it could be. it could be the same woman. She did say that it was a man like basically, oh, oh, the one you're talking about was Rachel's friend who said he saw them hanging out with a fourth person, but he wasn't, but we never got clear. That's, yeah, good point. That was in a newspaper article. We never got clarity on like, was this person like hovering around. Was this person like a friend of theirs? Was it a girl? Was it a guy? We have no clue. And that, and that's, that report was different than what this woman is saying. Exactly. That's totally different. So this happened when the family walked

around the mall that day and asked, like with Rusty and the parents, asked all these store clerks. Like two or three of them said, oh, this elderly woman came to us and said, hey, I need you to know. I saw this horrible thing. And like, yeah, nobody really did anything, but like, what are they supposed to do, I suppose? I don't know. It's a hard thing to argue. But they put out these statements in the newspaper like, hey, if you're this woman who saw this and told these clerks, can you reach out?

And she never did. So we still don't know who that was. Which is so frustrating because, like, if two or three clerk store clerks, clerks were like, oh, she came up to me. It's like, clearly she wanted to share her story, but then she never saw the news posting or what have you. And for all you know, like, she went around telling people too. Like, I saw this thing and nobody ever reached out to me. And she just ended on TV on the right news station. Exactly. And it's like, how do you know? I wish at that time they would have been like, leave your name and phone number and will like something. You know,

but like, it's just really hard to hear. So that was one of the first theories that it's like a security van, something like that. Another citing was this man who reached out to police in 1981, which was like six years, seven years after the disappearance. He said he had been in the parking lot that day, and

he had seen a man forcing a girl into a van. He said when he said something or started to approach that this man in the van told him this is a family dispute and you have to stay out of it. And so he backed off.

And it's like, again, just so scary because it's, you know, the 70s, like, you could kind of just like hit your children. It was normal. Like, so if you're screaming at your kids and like, you're like, it's a family thing. Get away. Like, what are you going to do? I don't know. Now, when they reached out to this man eventually, he was like, he was like, I don't, I just didn't, I just left it. I just left it alone, you know?

And like, that's got to feel bad too, right? Like years later being like, oh, shit. I saw something. I didn't say it. But like, it's so hard in the moment. It's so hard in the moment to know what to do. Yeah. Yeah.

I understand. Especially like a nine-year-old girl. You're like, well, maybe it's his kid and he's just a shitty dad. I don't know. Like you talk yourself out of things. I feel like in the 70s, so many people were corporal punishment was normal in a house that it probably didn't even originally phase him the way that it, I'm sure, it phased him a little bit, but not in the way that we're probably thinking like how

how we would feel. So I think you're just like, okay, like that's weird. That guy's just like being a dick, but that's how he handles his family life. Right, exactly. I think that's just not that abnormal at the time. So another angle, of course, is like they left with someone they knew or they trusted. This is kind of like the mall security slash authority angle. Law enforcement seems to lean on this theory the most.

I think to me it makes the most sense that at least one of the girls knew their abductor. or at least they trusted him. Like maybe it was a mall security. Maybe it was a fake mall security. Maybe it was fake police. Who knows? But like, especially if this woman told two or three people that she saw a truck with lights on it and like girls being pushed into the car, it's sort of like, well, yeah, maybe it was somebody saying like, hey, we think you shoplifted. Get in the get in the car.

We got to take you to the mall security office. Who knows, you know? But like, these are young girls. And maybe one of them either knew. this employee at the mall or trusted someone in uniform, who knows. As far as evidence of this theory goes, in April of 2001, Bill Hutchins, a former Fort Worth police officer and a security guard, former security guard at the Seminary South Sears outlet, said he had seen the three girls with a security guard. And this is a police officer slash security guard at this exact mall at the Sears.

he said he had seen the three girls with a security guard on the night they disappeared. Okay. And when he said this, he was like, no one ever reached out to me. And so then years later, he's like, hey, I sent this report in. I called this in. And nobody touched base. So this is not like, oh, I just remembered I saw this. He was like, I said something and you guys are still asking for tips.

Like, I told you this. Now that we have that information, did anyone go back in like the employee records and see who was working that I mean, I feel like this is a pretty easy situation to unpack if we wanted to. I think they just didn't have that kind of information from the 70s. They didn't write it down anywhere back in the 70s. That's so insane. That's wild. I know.

I mean, I think, we didn't keep track of shit. I mean, nowadays, everything's like computerized. Like, even today, I feel like you could botch like a worksheet, like a timesheet or something, you know. Yeah. And this was like the days of like you pencil it in or whatever, you know, I don't know. Yeah. And only if he were in the mood and who's going to know.

And like you're a bunch of teenagers working at the mall and whatever. I mean. And probably, you know, he didn't even actually work there. He just dressed up like a security card. He could have put on a vest and been like, hey, I have lights on my car, which, by the way, some serial killers have done. And I'm going to bring one up in a little while. I mean, he could literally just have, he could just have, I'm a security guard and have a gun and just. Correct.

It's Texas. Yeah. So now another uncomfortable avenue of speculation that I want to bring up involves Rachel and Debra's father. because he, his name was cotton and he was very abusive. According to Rusty, the little brother, the girls were afraid of him. And Rusty has alleged, quote, he was very abusive to the girls, his sisters. I'd seen him whip Deborah so hard that she had blood rotting down her legs. So like, this is a very abusive man.

Holy shit. Yes, Rachel and Deborah were very afraid of him. Their mother says the same thing, even though their mother has protected this man. her whole life, but essentially the girls were terrified of him, which does, like, even though I'm not saying this guy had anything to do with the disappearance, but I do want to add it as context to like why Rachel and Deborah may have lived together and why, like, why maybe they got married so young to get out of the house and leave their father's house. Do you know what I mean? So like maybe the context is just like, oh, Rachel and Deborah both just wanted to get out of the

house. So they got engaged, got married, moved out to get away. And, you know, so that, that's just important context. I think he died of cancer pretty shortly after the disappearance. So he was already sick by the time she disappeared and nobody really thinks he like had anything to do with it. But it just gives good context to like why they might be running away from something, you know. Yeah. So now we got to go to the serial killer angle because it's the 1970s. It's Texas. It's young women. It's the 70s. It's like, well, yeah, so there's serial killers. They're a very valid theory.

Jesus. I mean, these people, it's like. What was going on? Have you ever done the psychology of why the 70s was such a heightened time? I have thought about it and I've heard a few theories and I don't know because I haven't done my own research into it, but I have heard either you or somebody, maybe it was my brother. It was somebody who is full of fun facts. So it was either you or my brother. But one of you said that, like, that, like, that.

like it could have been the lead paint. It could have been. Oh, I have... There was a period. I think you might have told me. There was a period where like lead paint was so common that it like potentially influenced an entire generation of young men. Could have been him. I usually use that as a reason why boomers piss me off. And I'm like, oh, okay, maybe that was it. Maybe I just invented it. Like I was like, oh, okay, also serial killers.

That's a much more reasonable thing. No, usually if all of a sudden I'm saying something and it's not clicking with like an adult in my life, I'm like, it's just like the lead paint. They're like, paint talking. Yeah. I'm sorry. I know that's like so mean to say, but also there was a lot of lead paint going on.

And I can't. I can't sit here and pretend like it probably didn't affect them. Listen, I just learned about like some sort of toxicity to some metal. And I'm like, I don't, I don't fucking know anymore. Okay. I mean, well, one day the kids younger than us, they're going to blame us like having a microplastic stare.

Like, I don't know. Oh, for real. So I can't blame them. They're all psychopaths because they ate so many luncheables. Yeah, probably. I, okay. So, well, my thought. was originally my guess

or what I was thinking you might say is because so many parents of them were like in like just a war just gonna put that as a blanket statement they were I feel like they all were somehow affiliated with the military and maybe all had some sort of like PTSD because it was less addressed back then

I mean it was it was a big time especially for young men like their dads being like having shell shock World War II yeah so I feel like maybe they were just the collateral damage when men came home and had PTSD. That's another very big theory. And so I feel like, I think the lead paint one is more of like kind of a joke, not maybe not a joky thing, but almost like a sad reality that other things. Yes, yes. Sort of like let's just throw that on top, you know, but I think I think you're right about, you know, they say like each generation has their own like, like weird, like the bright eyed optimists who are just like fucking running into walls over and over and like the Gen Z is like fuck all of you. You're all wrong and stupid. And like, you know, it just feels. like every generation has like this reaction understandably to their previous predecessors. And so yeah, it could be, I bet you there are plenty of dissertations and things. I would love to cover that though. I might look into that because it's fascinating. I feel like lead is one percent of the problem at least.

I mean, right, exactly. Like maybe it just like cherry on top, you know, like just a little sprinkle lead on top. If you ever come up with the official like professional medical diagnosis, reasoning for why there are so many serial colors, I would love to hear that. the what other people think because I don't know the answer but I'm curious and also like you hear about this triad right you hear like bedwetting um which I think a lot of that has to do with like I mean I don't know I'm again I'm no psychiatrist I'm no doctor of anything but like uh you hear bedwetting you hear like harming animals you hear um there's a lot of shame often fire setting there's a lot of shame about like especially if it's like oh I um like some boys wanted to look

their mom's underwear and like wear them or high heels and like there was just so much shameer on that um there's a lot of that when i read on these guys and then um the other thing bed wedding oh the head injuries like the head injuries where it was like oh he just fell off cracked his head open and they just like laid him down and said and then he was never the same again and i'm like oh my god like not that i'm saying like maybe head injuries i haven't looked at the statistics but I feel like the head injuries back then, they were just like swing off a cliff, hit their head and be like, just go to bed.

I feel like if there's a Venn diagram between head injuries and serial killers, so it's at least a little sliver. It's got to be a crossover. And it's like, here, here, just sniff this lead. It'll make you feel better. You know, it's like, what are you doing? I, interesting.

Yeah. And I, this is me, again, absolutely just fucking guessing here. But I feel like a lot of the early signs seem to also be like, children with some sort of like sexual interest early on, which makes me wonder if they were abused. There's a lot of shame and a lot in that, yes, that can go hand in hand with abuse. That can go hand in hand with like interests that aren't like the norm, quote unquote, or like getting caught with like interests that are not the norm and getting like eaten for it or ashamed for it for sure.

But I feel like a lot of kids who were abused, in this case I mean physically or sexually or whatever. I feel like it just was easier to get away with back then because there wasn't really CPS. I think culturally there was a lot more religious shame or at least a lot. It was more of a blanket across the community. I think there was just shame more in general. Yeah. Purity and all this stuff.

And, you know, we hadn't known about like a lot of ways that children are getting abused. And then you have like boys trying, like you want your boys to be boys. But then it's like, oh, well, but their father was in the war and has this horrible shell shock it has this like C-P-T-SD or whatever whatever like the social expectations were totally kept them from being able to impossible to investigate it themselves and be exactly there's just so many things I think it's probably like the most complex like situation but it's true there's a serial killer angle because it's the 70s it's Texas and here are some of the people because of course there are multiple people

that people point to and say this could be the person involved. And they could be. Any of these could be. So some of the serial killer repeat offender names that tend to come up on places like Reddit and web sleuth. We've got Kenneth Granville who was active in the 70s from 1974 to 1975. And to give you an idea like this took place in 1974. So this would have been right in the time frame. he was an American serial killer who was responsible for sexually motivated murders of seven people in Fort Worth from 1974 and 1975, most notably the mass murder of three women and two children. He was executed in 1996. But that's all we know. Like it's not like we have any clue that it could have been this guy, right? Like it's just like, oh, he happened to be there during this time. I mean, that's a good theory. Yeah, but guess what? I've got like three more. And it's like, oh, all of them could. easily be the match, you know? Yeah. Which is like, holy shit.

I'm not bringing all of them, but here's another one. Glenn Samuel McCurley Jr. This is the man responsible for Carla Walker's murder, and I have not covered this one, but I do want to at some point. Also, very sad. Carlo Walker was kidnapped from a Fort Worth parking lot in February of 1974. And remember, this occurred in December of 1974. So just a few months later in Fort Worth.

She was murdered the method. like a teenager being taken from a public parking lot, a blonde young teenager, is the kind of parallel that people see here between the Fort Worth Trio and Carlo Walker's case. McCurley was ultimately identified decades later via DNA and arrested and charged. But like again, this is just somebody who had done something in the area at that time. Yeah. And it could, it's anyone's guess.

It could be anybody. and some other Texas serial killers active during this time, Henry Lou Lucas and Otis Tool, and they mostly, whatever, they're prolific. I covered them at some point. Dean Coral, the Candy Man, who is known for the Houston mass murders, but his crimes allegedly ended in 1973, and he typically targeted young boys and men. But like, you just hear all these things and you're like, shit, it could be anybody who's targeting like young people or people in broad daylight and this is happening all over the place yeah anyone who's got a problem with women or children or like a problem with themselves and they want to project it on women and children correct yeah yeah and it just seems like to be

rife with this stuff so the last person i want to bring up as a potential person who basically just gets brought up is mike de bartlebin and he is known as the mall passer the mall passer um not like the catchiest serial killer name, but the mall passer. Not that I want him to have a cool name, but if I were a serial killer, I would certainly want something other than mall passer. Correct. I googled that and it was like passing through a mall and I was like, no, no, no. Okay, let me get his name, which is so long.

Mike, the Bartle would have been. So he was like, actually, mall passer's fine. Mall passers good. Just call me that. Yeah. Honestly, it fits better. So this is one of the theories. It gets brought up a lot in conversations about the Fort Worth Trio, basically because

he's known. a mall passer. The alias refers to Mike De Bartlebone, otherwise known as James Mitchell, Mike De Bartlebin, who became notorious for later criminal activity that has drawn like speculation.

He was an American counterfeiter, rapist, kidnapper, and suspected serial killer who earned his nickname because he passed counterfeit $20 bills in shopping malls across the U.S. And that is how they caught him. It was like a nationwide secret service investigation.

Of course, they caught him for like fraudulent money, not like potentially serial killing people, but okay. Although he was not arrested for murder, evidence found after his capture in the early 80s, including sexual assault paraphernalia, tapes, photographs, and materials suggesting abductions, led investigators to conclude he likely committed additional violent crimes beyond counterfeiting. But he was only convicted on multiple counts of kidnapping, rape, fraud, and related offenses. but he was sentenced to nearly 400 years in prison. So they were like, we're just going to leave it there.

But it's possible. Do you have a feeling about any of these people? Or like not even a serial killer? Do you think it could be somebody that's not a serial killer? My gut is like it was just somebody who said, okay, my gut is like, oh, somebody that one of them knew maybe. Like maybe somebody was targeting Rachel because she's the oldest. She had the most, like, biggest social circle.

but then I'm like, but who would pursue three, like if she was a target, why would you pursue her if she's there with a 14 year old and a nine year old? Like it just seems like so much extra work. My first thought, sorry, go ahead. I totally have to deal. I was just because the last thing is like, and like it's not like they all plan to be there. It's not like somebody said, oh, they're coming together. It's like some people say, oh, Tommy must have suggested that Rachel go shopping because like his. son was coming for Christmas.

Maybe he, like, pushed her to go shopping because he wanted her to get attacked. And it's like, but, like, he had no idea she was going to invite the random nine-year-old that, like, she didn't know. You know, it's, it's like, it just doesn't add up. I agree that I think it's somebody that either they knew or it was someone their age. Well, here's what I think. You have not even given the suggestion. So I'm, I feel stupid being like, yeah, yeah, yeah, here's my thought. Don't feel stupid.

Look at Reddit and WebSleu's. and then get back to me and you'll feel very smart because sometimes people I'm like like read the draft before you hit send you know well my thought is that it was a two-man job I feel like it was a lot of people do believe it had to be multiple people I feel like it had to be that's maybe not someone that they knew personally but someone their age because that that one person who was walking around with them that didn't seem out of place enough for anybody to really comment on it except for one person and when they said oh they seemed like they were with someone And it's not like they were with this creepy old man with a knife.

It's like, oh, they were just with a friend or somebody in their group. They would have noticed if it was a person who didn't look their age or looked different than them in some way. So I have to imagine it was a high schooler or a younger person playing a high schooler to like, oh, let's all be friends and shop together. Or maybe it was a guy who was pretending to hit on one of them from another school. I want to throw this in there. There was an employee at the mall who was known for collecting applications. he worked at the mall and he was known for collecting applications from young women, young girls, teenage girls who were applying and he would call and leave them like sexually explicit

voice mails like that kind of thing. But then they look into him and they're like, well, we don't know. We don't have any proof telling it. They're like, hmm, nothing to arrest here. No, nothing wrong here. Keep working at fucking Spencer's gifts. Maybe that's why there were so many fucking serial killers because we weren't arresting people for smaller charges. But that's what I'm saying. I feel like there's like a million reasons why. this like just went bountiful in the 70s like you can't you can't even pin it down to one thing lawless it feels like lawless land oh you could treat girls however you want and then it's like there's so many

sexual predators yes and why don't these girls lose more weight and take take a fucking uh aerobics class real quick you know like Jesus leave them alone I feel like it's got to be I mean I immediately my gut is that guy then immediately but I if not then I would say it's still someone young enough that he could hit on them and it wasn't weird and blah. Like from that from that level of just like leaving prank calls to like abducting three girls and never finding a trace of them. Like it's like how do you at which I'm not saying is impossible.

I'm just saying like it's shocking to think like somebody can just escalate to a point where like there's never been a clue. And I will tell you, Rusty has fucking combed the city. He has gotten, he has collected money to to take cars out of the river and like look the cars. I mean, he's divers all 10 grand to pull them out. I know Rusty and Deborah have, have like their own very reasonable headbutting. Very, very legitimate reason to be mad at your brother for accusing you of something. Yeah, for real. However, that aside, Rusty's the fucking brother of the year, like to, um, to Rachel to be like, I will not rest until I figure out what

the fuck happened to you. And I will, I will consider everybody, including our other sister. Well, and it's really sad because, yeah, it's really sad because. Yeah, it's really sad because. he's like basically devoted his whole life to it and he said like until my last dying breath like I will not stop looking and it's like just really sad because I'm not saying it's sad because like he cares about a sister and wants to solve the murder but he has even said like I wish I had time to work like I wish I had time to even like he it has consumed him eating him alive yeah it is eating him alive 100% and um you know I can only hope that this leads to an answer but if it doesn't it It's like just how much hardship, you know, they've gone through at the expense of this.

And I'm not saying like, oh, leave it alone. Like I don't think I could ever leave it alone, frankly. But like it's what's easier said than done. But yeah, it is, it is like brother of the year. Like he has on his guitar, he has Rachel's signature like etched into it and stuff. You know, like he's really devoted to solving this. Yeah, it's obsessive. And he's devoted to finding her.

But, you know, at what cost, right? like he's kind of isolated himself from a lot of the family and he's kind of clung on to a lot of theories that like they don't believe and he's sacrificed the relationship with the sister he does still have correct oh and i want to add i meant to mention this earlier i cannot believe i forgot to mention this he and this um p i believe that she's still alive oh i forgot to mention this because it's so jarring every time i maybe not anymore but at the time in like the late in like the 2000s era he believed that Rachel was still alive. He believed she visited Fort Worth every Christmas, but he believed someone was holding her captive and like allowing her to visit every Christmas.

But like, I just started to think like that seems a little bit much like a stretch to me. That feels like a stretch. It does to me too. I understand like desperately holding out hope. The wanting of it, of course. But it does sound like a stretch. And it's happened, right? Like we've had Elizabeth Smart. We've had people where it's like, oh, crazier things have happened for sure. But It's like he, you know, he thinks that, so what they believe is that, or what they believe at least at the time of reading this reporting, is that Julianne Mosley, who is nine and was killed in some sort of tragic, like, violent situation that had to do with this abduction. They believe that Renee has been killed since then, but they believe that Rachel is still

alive and that she visits every Christmas. And so, but then he still has claimed, like, with that, that, that. Tommy and perhaps Deborah have had something to do with it. And Deborah's like, what the fuck? No, I don't. So it's a very hard thing to kind of parse because you're like, ah. Yeah, there's a fine line between like wanting to still believe, but also, yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Well, I mean, my thought is that some younger guy lured them away and then someone, maybe a security guard who, maybe someone who got a job, they're just to work at them all to scout out people. I think they work together. Clearly it's a thing if this one guy's like just calling applicants to harass them sexually. Maybe the security guard knew about that guy and then they decided to work together. And so that way the guy only had to lure them out and then someone who is okay with being more violent and aggressive. And I believe Renee had applied to a job there or it was one of the girls had applied to a job at that store where this guy, this creepy dude, was working. So it's like, you at least have. I feel like they could have teamed up.

I mean, if there's, let's pretend there was a. security guard, you know, who's not afraid to drag people out, which people did see. There's a creepy guy who's working there. You know the two of them are going to find each other and at least talk about creepy things and what they would, how far they're willing to go and, oh, we could work together. I think it was a trafficking thing. Who's your favorite? Okay, the trafficking is a big theory. And the sister, Deborah, has called it white slavery. And people have talked about, like, what's white slavery? And I'm like, I feel like I studied that in high school. Like, it was called white slavery even when I was like in high school this was a thing human trafficking had an

unfortunate name of white slavery back in the day because people I think were trying to say like oh you thought it could just happen to people black folks no there's white slavery isn't that shocking but like the term at least I remember it being used as like a term for trafficking and so one of the theories that deborah has is like perhaps it was a trafficking scheme or something like that But then you just wonder, like, what bothers me is that it's three girls at the mall, but they weren't planning to be there. It's like, well, that's why I think it's like, I mean, they're so, sorry, sorry, I keep in.

No, no, I want you to say what you want to say because I feel like I need someone to, like, explain that to me. I know that there's a lot of trafficking, uh, scams or attempts at, like, grocery stores or things like that. And a lot of time, one of the two people that are working together is someone who, makes you feel safer. So a lot of times it's a woman or someone your age and she'll say like, can I, oh, I forgot my phone and I'm trying to call my boyfriend and or oh, even if it's just like a conversation, like they could hand you something. Maybe there's a tracker in it. I don't fucking know.

Or they'll follow you into your car and you feel safer because it's a girl in your car. They were like, I'm a photographer. I mean, if men could be like, I'm a photographer come model for me. Yeah. Like a woman could probably convince you of anything. I think these days I don't, I'm not a fucking trafficking expert. But the stories I've heard, at least the ones that are most successful, is that when one person in the in the plot is a woman because women feel safer with women. So, um, and usually they're someone who's also been trafficked and now they've been trusted enough to now help with the new recruiting of whatever it or whatever. Right. Right. Um, and then they could say like, I don't know, insert anything where you would feel much safer if a woman asked and not a man.

And then just like disarm you. Yeah. Transfer happens where now there's exactly. Or like, Oh, there have been ones that have been around here where it was like two years ago now where a girl was going up to people in like Walmart and saying there's a guy that's really creepy and he's, he's really freaking me out. Can you walk with me to my car? And then they're tricking you. Like, holy shit, dude. So unfortunately you can't fucking trust anybody. But yeah, not good stuff. But it's the 70s.

I mean, not to say it again. If there was a guy who was kind of creepy and maybe he was for what these. girls saw. My thought is that maybe he approached them and said, oh, one of you applied to the store, right? Oh, well, I'm off right now, but we can all like hang out and get to know each other and like, let's go to the food court. So, do you think they had this like, so my, my, then my question is like, then what happened? Because all three girls were never found. And I'm like, that suggests like some sort of like, like, we got them out of here. We either hid them so well that like they were never found or we got them like trafficked out of the country like I don't know I just wonder like how did they do that I mean again

this I'm fully guessing here no no I'm curious though really I would imagine they were kidnapped to be assaulted by the two of them and then when they were done with them killed them or maybe even do somebody else and send them somewhere else and then it actually did become a trafficking situation versus like let's plot together to get you know those are some cute girls let's go get them I don't know I have no fucking idea it's just just so wild to me that like two days before Christmas, you're just like at the mall and you're like, oh, perfect. Three blonde girls that I can like erase off the planet immediately.

And like, it's crazy. Obviously it happens because it happened. But like I think that's why this case is just so like shocking because as police said, we cannot get out of this parking lot. Like we have this parking lot. We have the car in the parking lot. We cannot get past the parking lot. We don't know.

We don't know what happened. Yeah. I am. I, all I know, well, I don't know anything, but my, my gut would be that the, it was a two-man job that got them in the car. I'm sure it's also them at least first before other people did or it was just for them. A hundred percent agree. I believe it was at least a two-man job. I also agree, my gut would say two-man job.

My gut would say it's somebody who either had a mall security job or, or feigned a mall security job. and the one guy I brought up, let me find his name. Oh, Mike De Bartlebin, he was known to fake being a cop. Like he would just get lights. Are you fucking getting me? I'm serious. Like he would research how to like pull people over and stuff. So it's like, but this happened all the time.

I hate to say all the time, but like, it's the 70s. Like it happened all the time. Like people, because there's no, it's like that perfect sweet spot of like no, like no stranger danger yet. Like no security cameras. women are more independent, so they're going to them all by themselves or what have you. Like, it was that perfect sweet spot. Oh, sorry, go ahead. That's all I have to say.

I feel like it also had to be someone that they don't know, or like it had to be like an impulsive decision by these people because with two days before Christmas, if anyone was planning this for a while, they would have been like, this is such an obvious time where people are going to be wondering where they are. Well, and also like it was only supposed to be, like Rachel came up with the idea that morning to go to the shopping mall and then called around a bunch of people and everyone said no so it's like it could have been another girl but like she called this girl and then this girl happened to be with her boyfriend whose little sister was there who asked to come like it was originally

just supposed to be nobody and then her yeah exactly so it has to be an impulse grab it has to be impulsive or at least it has to be something that somebody planned and said i don't care that there are suddenly two more girls involved will still go through it. with it, which seems unlikely to me. Yeah. But who knows? You know? Which is also,

that's also why I think it had to be a two-person job because they had to assume that based on numbers, they could take all three of them. That at least a girl would, like the little girl would be like, what the fuck? You know, like, I don't want to go with these guys. Or the oldest, who knows. But yeah, I just, it's hard to believe. That also makes me think that they certain, I mean, people already saw the security guard. I know with full confidence that he used the gun as a weapon.

Because how else do you wrangle three people? and none of them ran away or screamed if you didn't threaten somebody that you'd hurt them. And witnesses said like, oh, they were being, quote, hustled into a car. And I'm like, you don't get hustled into a car unless three girls don't get hustled into a stranger's car unless like there's something going on. Like they've either convinced you of a storyline like you're going to the police station because you're shoplifted or I have a gun and you can't fight me. Who knows? Or even the little one, like she could have ran away. but it's like, I'll shoot your sister.

Like it could be. Yeah, who knows? Exactly. And I wonder, like, if that woman, that older woman who saw this, like, if they had found her, I just really wish, I really wish that they had. And obviously it's too late now. I assume she's older, like, passed. But, man, that would have been a good clue because she apparently told multiple people.

Like, I just saw. And she told them that day before they were ever reported missing. Like, I just saw something really weird. She's like, I just saw these people like, these girls getting like pushed into a car. Yeah. And then they never found her. Yeah. Well, good storytelling, but bad ending.

See something, say something, you know? Mm-hmm. And also everyone look out for even women being weird in public spaces because if they try to grab your phone or take anything from you or, you know, maybe even get so close as like, I know this is crazy. But I've heard horror stories of like them dropping something in your bag and it's like a GPS tracker or. like get close enough to your phone that their phone also do like the Bluetooth thing and now they got info on you. If someone says come to my car with me, it used to be when you were kids like don't follow the person who says that they lost their puppy. But now as an adult, don't follow even girls who say that they're scared. Just say, I'll call the police with you right here. Really, because like Dean Coral was

called the Candy Man, right? And you know, candy shop and it was like, oh, he was giving out candy and now it sounds so ridiculous like, oh, don't take free candy from strangers. But it's like, no, this is like the same idea. Like, don't just trust somebody inherently because they say they're uncomfortable or in danger, which sucks because like you want, they're using that against us, but it's like you want to be able to help somebody who's like, who's feeling threatened. Alison and I recently walked past someone who like seemed that they genuinely needed help and they needed a phone, I needed a phone. And I was like, you can tell us the phone number and

we'll play on speaker and you can yell from over there. It's like, it's like, sorry, it's not you, but it's just the world. I don't just trust. You just got to scream into the phone from over here. Did it work? It worked. Yeah. And then and they didn't truly need help. I felt bad afterwards. One time when Blaze and I were like first dating in like 2014 or 2013, he still had like a flip phone like back in the day. And I had an iPhone and somebody stopped us in like at night we were walking from somewhere and somebody stopped us and said like, can I borrow your phone? And I was like, yeah, you can borrow my boyfriend's phone. And Blaze like handed his flip phone.

they were like, never mind. And they handed it back. Like they clearly were going to try to steal your fucking phone. And we were like, holy shit. But so, yeah, you never know. And back then, like, there wasn't really fine my, you know, like, if you lost your phone, you lost your fucking phone. So I remember being like, wow, that was the one time his flip phone came in handy, you know.

The person was like, never mind. They, like, didn't even want it. I remember one time someone tried to steal my back to the future hat. And this was when I had long hair and I had my, like, ponytail through the hole in the hat and so they couldn't get it. Who does that? Like they tried to grab it off you? They tried to rip it off of me and they didn't know that it was like going to be like

attached to my head. And then we just awkwardly stood there and I was like, did you? I was like, do you just try to steal my hat? Yeah, by the way, like look me in the fucking eye and tell me what you just tried to do. I did. I was like, did you just try to steal my hat? And then he just ran away. Like, hello?

It's so weird. That was like the time we hit the phone over and he goes, never mind. And we went. So we all know what you were trying to do here. Great. Thank you. Did he stay for a. second and you like,

no, you fucking bolted. Okay, okay. Bolton. And we were like, cool. So, and that weirdly so violating, even though like nothing was officially stolen, but it's like to know that you almost fell into it. And the dumbest part is like, he's like our age. And I was like, this fucking guy, it's just like, and you want to believe people when they're

like, I'm in trouble. Like, of course. And like your gut instinct is like, oh, I'll help. And then this time I remember Blaze going, like he, sometimes his fucking. dumbass brain, left brain, right brain, whatever it is. He's like, here, use my phone. And the guy goes, no thanks. And Blaze was like, here we go.

I mean, honestly, that makes me feel like I should just have a burner flip phone in case. Just a handout. Just a handout in case someone needs it. And I'm like, well, if you steal it, it's a burner flip phone. I'm for sure giving people my iPhone. And then my thought is always, well, I have fine my friends. I'll track it, I guess, if this person runs away. but like twice now it's been somebody who actually just needed to borrow my phone and I'm like okay

but it's hard to know there's a new way now I don't know how to do it I really I need a younger person to teach me how to do like shortcuts like verbal shortcuts on your phone because there's something you can like you can program your phone where if you say like my phone's being stolen example or something if you say something then it will trigger your phone to immediately open find my friends on all your other devices and take a picture so it sees whoever is oh it's like a text you could text my phone just got stolen and when then they open the text it'll screen show take a picture of their face and send it to find my friends and call the police it's like i don't know how they do that but there's a lot of cool things you can do with shortcuts that i don't know how to do but um i tried to use shortcuts for a while

and it annoyed me because it like takes an extra two seconds and i'm as i said a gemini and i don't have two seconds i don't have time for that yeah just do my phone you know well Anyway, thank you for your story. Oof, I think you. I feel like it's been a while for a two-parter, but yeah, I like two-parters. Needed to be done. I like two-parts a lot. You know, Leona's favorite thing, like, when we watch her kids shows, if there's ever

part one, part two, she fucking freaks out. And she's like, it's a part one. It's a part one, mom. And I'm like, yay! And it's so funny, because I'm like, I don't know what it is about the part one, part two, but man, she gets so fucking amped about it. I know what it is, it hasn't ended yet. It's there's still more to go.

And I'm like, have you heard of movies? Those are long. But, no, she's like me. She just wants TV, TV, TV. That's a nice reminder to be excited about part ones and part two is because when I, in movie world, I'm like, what do you mean I watch three hours of this and it's not even done? Oh, I can't do that with a movie. I don't think she'd ever accept that with a movie.

She'd be like, where is it right now? The next big Marvel movie coming out is a part one. And it's, I'm just like so, you know, Infinity War? You remember my opinion about it. I remember. You remember the whole. So they have another one of those coming out where it's the part one of the next big one. And then I'm going to have to wait a whole year for the second half to come out.

I mean, after Wicked, I'm like, this is a lot that they're putting through you, mentally, emotionally, spiritually. Wicked made sense because it was literally Act 1 and Act 2 of a play. Fair enough. At least you could like mentally prepare for that kind of thing. But still, I mean, but also as much as I just said that, I'm also going to step back immediately because the play itself was three hours long. We could have just done Act 1 and 9. True. you know.

Sure. But anyway. Yeah, I saw that fucking play in one fucking afternoon, baby. Yeah, exactly. Get it done. I saw that for lunch. I saw that for lunch and had a crab salad. Excellent.

You really nailed that one. No, but when the next Avengers movie happens, I'm going to be like, I'm going to try to be like Leona, be like, it's just part one. It's just, but I feel like I'm going to go, it was only part one. Seriously, I have to wait. Well, the last time there was a, a part one, it ended with every single person dying and then I had to wait a year to find out how they stop being dead. Man, they've really got you whipped, huh? They're going to do it again.

I can already feel it. I just like, with her at least, when it's a part one, it's like part one, it's like, part one, it's like, cool Netflix has started part two. Like, if there's not like a, you have to wait. I don't think she's encountered that yet and I think it would make her just as absolutely fucking insane as it would make me. Anticipation. I can't tolerate it. No, no. No, no. I said, I sometimes I'm like, I know. I know. I know. I said, I sometimes I'm like, I know. waiting is hard and she's like, I hate it. I'm like, I also hate it. Me too. I don't know what to tell you. It sucks. Well, uh, I hope you have fun. Is Blaze still sick or are you guys good now? No, he's way better, except that he probably can't carry this toilet. But other than that, yeah, yeah, 100. But look with the potty. 104 pounds. Is he going to expect you to carry that with you? Me? No. Okay. He said Tim has to carry it. And Tim, Tim got back last night from Germany at like 1130.

So, um, wake up, Tim. We have a job for you. Good morning. It's time to, by the way, I just scratched my eyebrow and like picked up my weed vape. I'm like, good morning, Tim. It's time to carry my toilet up the stairs. There's a, is there like a famous good morning song?

Because when I was saying with Allison's family, they have a second little house on their property that was where Allison and I stay. But they have like all their like, Alexis and everything attached to. So in the morning, I woke. up to the Alexa in that house blaring. Good morning, good morning, or whatever the song is. No. I don't think I've ever heard that song outside of my father waking me up at age four or five and then like again at age 16. And the song is, good morning, good morning. Yes. Good morning, good morning, sunnonshine, and you d'avs not trawryish

which means good morning, good morning sunshine. I got that. And you are not allowed to be sad. Yes, you've told this before. I've told this before. I know for you that feels like, good morning sunshine, you're not allowed to be sad. Which is like, what? And I mean, Trauglich means like, I'm crying because I'm sad.

It's not like, oh, you're not allowed to be melanchol. It's like you're not allowed to be sad. you dumb bitch wake up and it's like okay good morning i know for you that feels like um you're for and probably back in germany or something but for me i feel like i'm right back in south carolina all of a sudden but uh they were good morning sunshine you're not allowed to be sad christmas morning they were just blaring it because it was obvious that they were saying like wake up like so where did they come up with that because i've never heard that outside of my own father like even my mother mom speaks german i know but like did she learn that on like i need to talk to her like

Did she learn that on like an exchange trip? Is this something they play all the time? Is this she speaks very good German? I've spoken to her in German. I just wonder like, is this a song that like she learned when she lived in Germany? Is this something that also haunted her as a child? Like I have so many questions. She lived in Germany, I think for a few years when she was an adult.

Right. So I'm guessing that's where she learned it. But she certainly like, you know, she's like born in Jersey. So I don't know. I know. I have so many questions where this came from. because like there's not a place that I learned that from except from a person screaming it at me in the morning. And it's like a really, it's like one of those things you don't really learn until someone screams it at you in the morning.

Well, we've both had that experience now, which is lovely. I was going to say, and I feel like now we're bonded in some sick way. I kind of get where the song says stop crying because I was, it was so early. And does it make you stop crying? Because it makes me like cry more. I'm like, you can't, I'm like, don't tell me what to do. Allison was trying to be nice and give me like a hug, good morning. And I was like, get the fuck away from me.

When I try to wake Leona up, by the way, like before school, which we can talk about next episode, but like, waking this girl up for preschool, I'm like, I know the pain you're in. Like, I know it and I feel it because I'm in it too. And I'd rather die than like make you go to school right now. But like, you got to go to fucking school because also I have to go back to bed. Like, I've been up all night because you have. been having your moment and puppy didn't go to puppy school right or whatever and like it's just been a long way but like oh my god not the best parenting on my end or on my mom's end but once

I got into a college I would just wake up and I'd tell him I'm like I'm not going I'm too tired and she go I'm not happening oh like in high school you were like I'm done I'm not going uh yeah no if once I got into college and I was just like kind of riding out senior year uh she would be like as long as you don't have a test today I don't care what you do oh it's like like hard to even fight. She was like, you already made it. So just whatever.

I literally woke her up and she just like fucking screamed like a banshee and was and then like rip the blanket over her head and I'm like, oh my God, I'm going to get injured. I'm going to get hurt. I don't know what to do. My mom still, I, you might be able to relate to this. My mom, when she wakes me up to this day, I must have been like Leona, I guess when I was a kid because I don't think of this terrible anymore when I'm waking up. But she will straight up.

If she has to wake me up, like we're on a vacation or whatever. and she'll like nudge me and then back up like I have a gun. And she'll go, it's me, it's me. It's me. Out of the circle. What do you call it? Like the danger zone. Out of the danger zone.

Back up. But she really will back up and go, it's me. It's me. It's me. As if I like, I'm going to hit her in the face. I don't know what I did to her. You're going to like detonate a bomb. Jesus.

Just know if you end up there with Leona. You're not the only one. You can call my mom for help. I do sometimes feel like that. I will come in and she'll like look at me. And if it's Blaze, she'll go, get out. And if it's me, she'll be like,

and I'm like, okay, I'm allowed to enter. And then it's like, I turn the sound machine off and she's like, turn it on. And I'm like, you have to leave in seven minutes. Like, I'm texting your dad right now, like, put some muffins in a Tupperware by the front door. Like, we got to get, like, and slowly back away. It's gotten insane. It's gotten insane. And Blaze today was like, hey, I think we need to like start back to where we were, like waking her up at an normal time and not just like hoping she gets up but and I was like I okay but we're all going to suffer I think you're going to really like this I got a kick out of it when I went to the family

reunion um Allison's brother has a daughter and she at some point I saw her like not getting her way she's leona's age I saw her not getting her way and I saw her make this face where she was like holding in all the anger and she would and then she did this with her hands and I was like oh my god she's like trying to like regulate her emotions that's like really like I know she looks mad but like it's nice that she's trying to keep it together. Yes. And then use the power. Well, so I saw her do this, but I thought she was just like freaking out.

And I was like, oh, she's like trying to keep it together, trying to keep it together. And then her parents were like, no, she's trying to ice blast me like Elsa. No, no. I was about to say Leona does that, but she's trying to freeze me. Yes, freeze it. Literally. I'm so serious. She literally goes like this and I'm like, oh, she's trying to get her like energy out.

And she's like, freeze. And I'm like literally trying to channel all of her energy to ice. I'm so serious. This is a real thing. That's so weird. I thought that she was the only kid. I thought I was going to do. I certainly have not heard of another. Okay, well, this is great. Let's talk off air because I need help. Leona and Allison's niece are both Elsa. No, she literally is like, and I'm like, what are you doing? And I'm like, oh my God, she's trying to freeze me. Oh my gosh, she's trying to freeze me. Oh, gosh, she's trying to freeze me. For the rest of the family reunion, it was so funny because you just hear in another room, you hear, stop ice blasting me. Stop ice blasting. Stop. And so Leon will go freeze. Freeze. And then we'll like, nobody can unfreeze you, but daddy. And it's like, well, he's upstairs. What the fuck do you want me to? to do. And I start to text him like, come and freeze me. And she's like, you can't text him. And I'm like, honestly, I'm just in frozen jail. Oh my God. She's watched the movie like three times. It's not even like she watches a movie.

She just is like, I. She watched enough to know what she needed to do. I'm so happy to know that there's not another, but there's another kid doing this. Imagine the two of them met each other and both tried to blast each other. What happens then? Can't be. Can't be. I think their brains would explode. They'd go, what do you mean you know my powers? Things would be. They'd either like ruin the world or ruin the world. I don't know. Something, maybe save the world. Okay, I will leave you alone.

But thank you everyone for listening if you're still listening. And we'll see you next week. See you next week. And thanks for being you. Freeze blast. Freeze blast. And that's why we drink.