And That's Why We Drink - E468 MySpace Siren Calls and Sit Down Comedians

Episode Date: February 1, 2026

Whattup playas? It’s time for episode 468 where this week Em tells us the wild tales of the haunted Old Teller County Jail aka Cripple Creek Jail aka The Outlaws and Lawmen Jail Museum (truly a place of many names!). Then Christine covers the case of Vincent Viafore and Angelika Graswald which leaves us quite frustrated with the justice system. And don’t forget to add us to your MySpace top 8! …and that’s why we drink!Photo Links:Outlaws and Lawmen Jail MuseumAngelika and VincentBannerman IslandCatch our bonus Yappy Hour intermissions on Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3L28lDw or subscribe on Patreon: http://patreon.com/ATWWDPodcast!___________________Visit https://www.aspcapetinsurance.com/DRINK to explore coverage. The ASPCA® is not an insurer and is not engaged in the business of insurance.Help your dog live their best life with high-quality food from The Pets Table—get 55% off your first box plus 10% off your next two at https://thepetstable.com with code drink55.Visit https://quince.com/drink for free shipping and 365-day returns (now available in Canada).Join the loyalty program for renters at https://joinbilt.com/drink and use our URL so they know we sent you.Go to https://helixsleep.com/drink for up to 20% off sitewide, exclusive for listeners of ATWWD. Make sure you enter our show name after checkout so they know we sent you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Welcome to and that's why we drink, bros. What up, players. Let me just like crack open a cold brusky. I know, I hope you do. This wasn't even the plan, but I literally have a big. beer next to me. I can I guess the flavor because it's all I have. Oh my God.

Like when I see a can of alcohol, I'm assuming it's flavored with something. And I'm always curious what the color, like what's the most popular flavor for can. Okay, okay. Let's cover up. I'll cover up. It's a Rheinkees, local, love this stuff. Okay. I'm covering up like the name of it.

Couldn't tell you a single thing about what flavors they even offer. So when I see green, I'm going to, as well, assume it's like a lime situation, but I feel like that's too easy. I feel like is but green also to me, I feel citrusy. It's something citrusy. I'm going to go grapefruit. Listen. Juicy truth. Hazy, juicy India pale ale. Some truths are juicier than others. Brewed to unleash the bright tropical aromas of the generous hot bill. This hazy IPA is brimming with pineapple, mango, and citrus notes. I told you a lime was too easy. But then it says log off. I think I'm going to go away now. It says log off, catch the wave. It's like a weird fortune cookie.

It was like, actually stop what you're fucking doing. Okay. Like, I've been drinking vitamin water. And on the pink ones that I like, it says, we know you're stalking your X right now or something. And I'm like, why do you put that on every bottle? It's so weird. I'm above that now. But stop reminding me that it's an option. I feel like someone who didn't leave their like 2006 party days wrote that. Yeah. It feels like me. It feels like I wrote it like in 2006. And then like, sent it forward to myself. It's just like, I'm like, why do you put that on there? That's so toxic and strange and like, maybe I am.

It's not of your fucking business, you know? I mean, I get why they did it. It was the only reason, what was that stupid? Was it, um, remember back when there was that phase where it was like, it was like, not vitamin water, but it was a brand like that, but every single one of their rappers had like a blurb that like was so off the charts weird and random, like X, X, X, X or something. Oh, I missed this. No, I'm just saying X, X, X, X, X,

water. It was vitamin water. Okay. That's the thing they have a quippy, a weird stupid quippy thing on it. Yeah, but each of their flavors was like unnecessary, like the writing or the description for the flavor was unnecessarily ridiculous. And they were like long.

Like I remember the yellow ones just being like paragraphs. I feel like it was like the first round of people really trying. something with like media marketing and like so marketing thing yeah that for our generation would work because i remember buying that stuff just so i could go read what they all had to say and collecting the labels because they all had something crazy on them oh my gosh okay well i was never my parents just bought it at costco and i was like all right i guess uh i got to live with these stupid blurbs for the rest of my life i'm just saying if i got a product and it said i bet you're stocking your ex right now i would hold on to that for a second just to show others the thing that like bothers me is that i thought

that's funny and then the other five bottles had the same thing. I was like, can we like come up with something a little more clever? Like, like can we mix it up, you know? Like, I'm not always stalking my ex. But if I am, I'm drinking a vitamin water. Paid promotion. No. I mean, it probably is true. I drink so much of it in high school. I feel like it's probably like a sensory memory, you know. I, I do, I, I miss the, the days of your when everything was like so random. I know that It's cringe now. Oh my God. So quirky.

I thrived in that shit. Oh, yeah. Of course we did. We were MySpace kids, man. We love, we're like, oh, do it. DIY my page didn't think, uh, thought you'd never ask. Well, here I go. Coding.

What was your favorite feature on your MySpace page? Oh my God. I'm such a dork. What was your song? At some point you had to, like, what was one of the songs you had is your, your personalized song? I don't want to tell you. Why?

Fall Out Boy, what? Was it... I feel like I have to prove it to... Not prove it, but I feel like I have to... You don't. Whatever you're about to say, I will believe. Was it like Barney or something? No, that was probably yours.

I had the Glenn Miller Orchestra for a while. That's so German. That feels German. I don't know why. It's not. It's like World War II, USA. I don't know. That's German Bay, though.

What are you talking about? You like big band US like big band like um glen miller you know he sings like um the song was the one that goes like it let me see if I can he sings in the mood oh to fight the for the nation what oh I had I had moonlight serenade I think Moonlight serenade well here we'll put a sample here we'll put a sample but then I also had uh actually but that was just like for fun zies because I thought it was funny Because it was so random. Because it was so random, M. Like, it's so cringe.

But the one that I actually had, because I was trying to send a message, was Billy Talent. I had Billy Tallin on there. I had all the most dramatic ones. Like, like, literally they're like drive over me with a truck. Like, I'm going to kill my. Like, they were really, really dark and emo. And I was like, yeah, now everyone will. understand but then the thing my favorite feature of vice space which was your first question

was when they had those fucking this is so embarrassing those quizzes that were like personality quizzes and every time i said when was the last time you cried i'd be like last night yeah yeah yeah i'd be like i want my crush to ask me why or who just texted you you'll never know you'll never know winky yeah you wish you knew and it was like my stepmom it was like it was never had good I just loved it. And I just wanted people to, I just wanted to be perceived in a way, I just wanted to be seen,

you know. But only by a crush. It was like, for people who don't know. That's all I cared about. It was like, imagine Instagram has, I don't know,

links to surveys or you could post you. Yeah, you can, you could post them and fill them out on like your story. I mean, this is, I'm trying to make it Instagram

so people know what I'm talking about. They do have that though, where it's like, insert your, like, here my favorite, whatever you can like post it like fill up your story.

But there was not, not the same. But it was like it was unnecessarily long. There was like 200 questions on these sometimes. You had to scroll for like pages. It became homework and you were doing that instead of your homework. Oh, 100%. And I was like I do that's how people like you and I with our ADHD were like, yeah, okay, I know I can do things. It's just I have to be really motivated. Yeah. But people would fill it out and really the only goal ever of those was you had to hope and assume that the person you were obsessed with was also obsessed with you in reading every single of the 200 prompts so that they could get to know you and then I am you about it later. But it never happened. It never happened. I mean,

maybe it did for some people. It certainly never happened. Well, it felt like it to me because I know the people I was obsessed with, I was reading their prompts. So I just prayed to God I wasn't alone and someone else did that. But it's not fair because I was liking boys and they don't post shit like that. So I should have just known me at the time, just commit to girls now. And then you got the back and forth. But I just got the like, oh, they've, I haven't updated their MySpace and Tom is still their only person in their top eight. So I don't get to know anything. Well, I would read my crushes post. Oh, my God.

One time it worked. One time I had a crush on this guy. And he was way out of my, like, social league. Like, he was complete. And one time he, like, posted, oh, my God. It was, like, the best day of my life truly, as far as, like, a high from that kind of thing. He posted, like, heard this song. in assembly today.

It was my ringtone or something. He's like, I can't believe Christine or someone had Cold War Kids as their song like, I'll, like, I, uh, and like posted something. And then the next day, I was like, am I like having a fever dream? Like he posted this weird, mysterious post. And the next day during history, it was like three weeks left in class. And he sat next to me. And everyone was like, why are you sitting over there?

And I was like, oh my God, it's happening. But that was when I was in the midst of all my hexing. Uh-huh. And so it ended up back. firing on me a little bit. I see. I was going to say. But it worked for a minute.

I was like, I'm literally siren calling this guy into my atmosphere. He happened to hear your ringtone at assembly. That's what did it for him? And then he like wrote a post about it and was like, I just know you were in the AV room just wiring the speakers to play your ringtones. I was just at like the nurses station like, she has a PA in here, right? I can just kind of PA out to everyone. You're just holding your ringtone.

You were calling yourself and playing it on the speaker. It's so cringy because it was a black. Barry. And I was like, oh my God. And then, oh, and then he posted on my wall. And I remember I stood up from the computer, moved my chair back, like, walked out of the room, just associated for a while, came back and went, I must have dreamed that. And he was like, still there. Like he had posted on my wall. And I was like, he's like, you have a good taste in music. And I was like, it's happening. It's happening. And then I ended, yeah, then I didn't. Let's just say it didn't work out. Nothing happened. Man. But I knew I could hex at that point. And I realized that it's a daint.

power to hold. That's a gift and a curse. And a curse. Yeah. Well, welcome to do. That's why I drink everybody. Usually that's like a yappy hour segment, but today we're just going, oh, how about during the yappy hour? We do one of those quizzes. Oh, that'd be fun. That would be fun. Yeah. Or we'll look at Myspace layouts or something. I don't know. No, easy. That's, you're asking a millennial if I want to go travel to MySpace? What? Do you think my crush will hear it? Do I think your gradually. No, I don't think Blaze were fucking at all. I know Allison won't, so we could

just go back to our rancid 16 year old ways. That's fine. I'll think about Henry then. Okay, perfect. I'm thinking to Sydney. Hey girl. Where are we? Now I'm just thinking about Sydney. Anyway, that was nice, wasn't it? Wow, trip down memory lane. That was the

yeah, what was your song? I forget. You've told me before. Oh, well, I mean, mine switched all the time. I had a lot of phases. I did too. Was yours like Bob Marley or some shit? No, although I did have a Bob Marley phase. I feel like I see that in you.

I think because I hung out with a lot of people who were like those Baja hoodies and they listened to it. And I was like, and so I listened to it mainly because it reminded me of the memories of that. It fits one of your vibes, yeah. Well, it, no, it doesn't. But it fits one of your aesthetic vibes that I know about, like the hoodie. and stuff. Like it fits that from a shallow perspective. I was a college kid who hung out with a lot of stoners.

We went to a lot of hookah loungers, which in my mind I combined as a smoking stoner thing. Sure. There was a lot of Bob Marley around me, and I was like a dubstep kid, and when a Bob Marley's sons put out dubstep, so I listened to that. So anyway, sorry, my song was,

the one I think of immediately was either honestly by cartel or or when Sydney and I ended it was dashboard confessional stolen of course I'm so I'm so jealous

that you actually like started and stopped something I never got to do that part oh no no let's be clear it was like a very like what you see on TV like we're talking and obviously there's tension we kissed once but then never spoke about it

and then I think she got freaked out about people finding out because a lot of people were starting to wonder about us and this was out of time in the world when you covered that shit up so when people started asking questions she broke up with me.

You're breaking my heart right now. And then I listen to Dashburg Inventional for like a year and a half. You had the best reason to like I didn't. I was sitting there going why is no one listening to me in an assembly playing my music in my phone? But you had an actual like kiss out of it.

You know what's wild though? Heartbreak. Is I literally disassociated the kiss and I totally like And by the way, Sydney, we're still friends. This is not, it's not weird. We've discussed. Oh, my God.

We've discussed at this point, which was lovely because we finally got to tell each other years later as grown adults. Like, I was in love with you. And then she was like, I was in love with you. And I'm like, oh, like 14 year old me can finally be put to rest. That dashboard can, you better have gone back to yourself in your mind's eye and been like, you will never fucking believe what's going to happen. I did. I tried to go back there and I was like, it's happening. Just like you were saying, well, so I apparently the first time, and I think only time we kissed, I thought this can't be real. And so I just blacked it out. She had to tell me years later. She's just like, we for sure kissed. And when she said it, it came back. But I was like, I thought I had dreamt it. I thought I had just assumed that, you know, I had moments like that too where I'm like, did that happen or did I just tell. Yeah, yeah. You just don't trust your own reality. Yeah. Anyway, 14 year old me, we did it. We made it. We did it. We're great.

The confession came out. We told her, and now she's marrying someone else. Oh, no, the horror. Anyway, by the way, well, I don't want to give away. I'll tell you privately. But she's changing her last name. She's getting married to, I've never met this person, but they seem lovely. They have decided together that they're changing their last name to a very cool last name.

Oh, I'm so, that's so cool. I'll tell you about it. She's not catching on. No, I will tell you off air what it is, but she's going to sound like a superhero, which is so cool. I just love when people's names just work out. That's so kick-ass. I know, I know. You know about Schultzforth. That's as good as I think we're getting here. Good as gold. It's better than what's going on currently. I don't mind it. And, by the way, I bought a plaque for the house that makes the house look like it's like one of those like historical. No, I wanted. Remember that time I cried in the car because the house that I really wanted to buy went off the market and it had a plaque. And I said, it just wanted a plaque. And Blaze was like, I'm sorry, your house with the plaque is gone. I got the house an old plaque that looks like it's off a haunted witchy home. And it says Schultzforth Manor. See, like what the fuck? Why don't you make your own plaque? That's so smart. Etsy is so powerful. I need to go do that. I'll make my own Schlampignallie one. Honestly, that would be beautiful. It makes me wonder about every plight.

I've ever seen now because I'm like, if it's been this easy, why is this on your house? Is this really a historical landmark or did you just buy this? No. Although part of me thinks that I, because I live in a historic neighborhood, I feel like the historic society is going to immediately clock it and be like, take that down. You don't deserve a plaque. Just put it on the other side of the house. I just put it on my balcony and I'm like, you can't reach it.

Sorry. No, it says, I don't know if this is true, but this is what, this is what I found online. and then ordered it as such, so I hope I'm correct. But I found out that plaques, if they say like C, like CERCA and then a year, it's different than if it's established in the year. Oh, okay. And my understanding, correct me from wrong. Actually, don't because I already bought the Plock.

I was going to say, I can't. I certainly don't know. Well, if you're a historian, just not along because I already bought the plaque and it was expensive. But C or CERCA means that's when the house itself was built and establishes when the family moved in. Oh, okay, that makes sense. So ours says Schultzworth Manor, Circa, and then the year the house was built. And you're like, it's been Schultzworth Manor since that day. That's what I'm kind of hoping.

I'm hoping nobody knows the Circa established thing. And I'm like, yeah, we moved into a haunted house. Yeah, they knew we were coming from the day they built it. They were like, the name has to be. Schultzforth. What is your circa 1880? 67, I think. 1867?

Like 1860s and I didn't really clock them until recently and I was like that's an end not that I didn't clock it. My house is falling apart. I've clocked it of more than. It's clocked me frankly. But I was listening to again, Jim Harold with all the shoutouts to Jim Harold. And people were saying like, oh, my house from the 1890s and I was like, that's old. And then I'm like, wait a minute. My house is fucking old.

I don't think it like hit me until recently where I was like, oh, of course there goes here, man. Yeah. Hello. There's no way that your entire neighborhood is. isn't riddled with an entire other community. You just can't see. It has to be. I hope that they are not trapped in their houses and that they can still walk to and from if they enjoyed each other.

I mean, that would be delightful because there was like a bustling community and they had pigs running around because it was porkopolis. And they had like, I mean, remember I found that article that said like the woman who lived in this house hosted like a Halloween party for all the kids in town. And I'm like, I just love. that that's the energy we're I'm going to hold on to that. What was her name? You know, I don't I should know it because I think that might be the one that I like, I'm always sensing on the stairwell but I don't

remember her name. I don't remember her name. It'd be fun if for Halloween you had a shrine for her. Like a altar or something. Like a day of the dead like honoring. Yeah. Just like light a candle for her and go, we know you would want to celebrate. I sometimes watch that show ghosts and I'm like imagine all the other ghosts being like, what? does she get a shrine? Because the squeaky wheel gets the oil. That's so beautiful.

And she was squeaky enough to end up in the papers for how much you love Halloween. She was hosting a Halloween party. What did you do? Yeah. Show me the paper. Show me the article. I'll care then. You know what I'm doing?

Yeah. Then I'll care. Yeah. By the way, update on your toilet flooding. Oh my gosh. We finally got new toilets in. It took like three days. It's just like everything is just a project, you know, in life. It doesn't even mean because I have a house.

I just mean like everything. There's always a hiccup, right? It's like, oh, okay. But it's fine. It was all handled. Blaz handled it. Thank God. New toilet.

Brand new toilets. And they are beautiful. Perfect. So my stepdad had to come over with like a dolly and like ratchet strap it. The toilets to the dolly and carry them upstairs. I mean, it was like a, it was a hold to do. Anyway. You know, there's nobody I would trust more with a ratchet strap than Tim.

There's no other person. Batman is a walking ratchet strap. That's correct. And totally meant lovingly, I think. Yeah. That would be a weird insult. It would be. Although ratchet is like one of the worst words.

That's true. That is a word that like I've tried to really distance myself from that. Okay. It's like when they say like a ratchet strap, caulk for the window. And I'm like, why are all the words so dirty, you know? I mean, I feel like cock is an easy one because men are in construction and they were like, oh, let's get the dick glue out. Let's put my cock on it.

Yeah. Let me just get my cock out real quick. You know they ate it up and they were like, well, obviously that's what's called now. Anyway, I don't even know if that was a full circle. It felt like a bit of a lot. Hmm? Slagpot. Again. Coke. What are you talking about? These are terms for in medical. In the field of metallurgy. Oh, yeah. I come from a fine and distinguished line of one metallurgy engineer. I thought we were just saying words.

I guess that's what this whole podcast is. We had like a whole episode about slagpots, but it was like episode six. But I think it lives so strongly in my memory that I assume you're always thinking about it also. Did you mean to actually guess the accurate number? I'm pretty sure it was episode six. That's upsetting to me because that means subconsciously I probably knew. The slas furnaces is what you're talking about. Yeah, that's the one.

Yeah. And that was right how your dad was in metallurgy or something? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I said there's something about a slag pot. And then my dad wrote this long email to explain what slag plots are. And we were like, but he made up a fake email address called and that's why I don't drink. Right, right. It was like this whole saga and he still, like, I just still don't really understand what happened.

Well, maybe that's a mystery that we're not supposed to know, Christy. Maybe that's for therapy. next week. I dare to ask, what and why do you drink? Oh, geez. Well, you know what I drink, because you already guessed it. Your citrusy notes. My citrusy IPA, I had therapy this morning, and I'm just really thankful for a therapist and all the good therapists out there who are doing the work and going to their own therapy and like, oh my gosh, it just sounds like a lot to go through your own journey and then to put that aside and like help clients. So I don't know. Today I just felt especially thankful for my therapist. And she was actually, she reminded me. She was the first person

I told when I was pregnant in October before Blaze, because I found out that night before. And then I went to therapy the next morning and Blaze had already brought Leon into school. And I was like, I don't know who else to tell us. I'm going to tell you. So I don't know. She's just a very, I'm just really thankful for her. So for all the therapists out there, all the any sort of psych or brain related or i mean anything in this vein i'm just like so um in all of you thank you for what you do um didn't necessarily have like a huge breakthrough today but just felt like more sturdy afterward you know nice yeah what about you what do you drink um i drink leftover crystal light oh yum and uh i drink i drink

because I ordered a lot of things to the house and none of them have appeared yet and I'm kind of concerned. Is one of them the plaque or has that arrived already? No, the plaque has been here. Oh, okay, okay. No, they were just like little things, but I'm just aware that I was like, I ordered a lot of things and they're not here and I don't know what's going on. And they were from different companies. So I'm like, what's going on with the mail right now? Just feels like they should have appeared by now.

Maybe as soon as like, I finish the sentence, they'll all just be in a pile of all of a sudden knocking and barking. and yeah. Yeah, but two days ago I started getting nervous and now I'm like, hmm. Two days later is a little bit concerning if like multiple things. So is there anything particularly exciting in these packages or just like you're just concerned in general?

I don't think there's anything particularly exciting, which is helpful because I'm like, well, at least I, you know, I'm not going to miss it. But it was like just little things and I got them from I don't want to like poo poo on smaller business at all. But I got all of them from those places and they're I'm sure I think it's a male situation not the business's situation but I was like oh man I was really excited to like support local business and now none of it's here now look what they did I was like now they ruined it no now look what they've done no I'm sure there's just a kerfuffle if I don't get anything by today I'm gonna really start panicking but I've been following the tracking number and like it's definitely the mail the mail service because like The last time I looked, it was like in an hour from me.

And then I looked last night in the middle of the night. And it was in Louisiana. And I was like, oh, that for sure got sent to the wrong place. L.A. L.A. Yeah. Yes. That has to be it. Yeah.

But yeah. So it was, I think it was just a mix up. And now I'm waiting for it to come back. But it started in Jersey. And then it came all the way here. Then it went all the way back to Louisiana. Oh, you hate to see that. So I'm hoping it does arrive.

I'm more worried that. Like it got lost in transit and now it's going to get stuck there. Anyway. Anyway, that's why I drink because I just want my shit. That's what. They're leftover crystal. It's that simple. All right.

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And by the, if you have ever smelled this bag, it's human grade. So part of me is like, I need to try it. Smells so good. nine recipes are all formulated with a board certified vet nutritionist. I'm not kidding. My dog goes feral for this. Yes, yes. That sounds about right. It's incredible. Help your dog live their best life with high quality food from the Pets table. Take advantage of this limited time offer. Get 55% off your first box plus 10% off your next to at the Petsable.com and use code drink 55. That's the petstable.com. Code drink 55. I have a quick one. I literally, I've been doing notes for this one.

story, Christine, for days, for days. This one? No, hold on. So there was a story. Don't get ahead of yourself. Don't get ahead of yourself. This one, not so much. No, I've been doing notes for this nonstop and it has been the biggest headache of my entire

life. And if I ever finish the notes and get to talk about it with you, you'll understand why. Stop. Not panicking, but like, I'm going to have an aneurism about this. Like, this is, I'm not panicking. I'm just going to probably die. This is, it's, it's so complicated. I can't say too much, but it's just so complicated and like the wording is so weird and it's like trying to, you have to like half translate while also figure out where in the timeline this is. You know, I'm so mad. I don't know what this is already. I'm like one day you'll know so bad. I want to know so bad. You'll be appreciative then. But then like one of the only places I could really get a lot and a lot of information was like astonishing legends. But it ends up being a two partner and it added up to like seven hours. Oh yeah.

But if I didn't... That's a short episode. But if I didn't listen to it, then I wouldn't be doing the story justice because they covered so much more information than I saw anywhere else. It's just, it's become a whole... Shout out to my two favorite podcasts already. I know. I, um, basically, I thought I could get this done if I stayed up really late. And by like one in the morning, I was like, I can't do this tonight.

Like, my brain isn't even thinking straight. And so at one in the morning, I picked a new topic. So I had to find something that... Last night? Last night. Yeah. Oh my God. Okay.

So I started at one. I ended around like four. Which topic were you going to do Monday if we did record? Because I ended up pushing the date because I'm me. Same thing. Well, so I was going to do the topic I'm talking about right now that was super tricky, but I was just going to make it a two-parter and... Oh, okay.

And get started on it or whatever. And get started. But then I found more information. I was like, well, now that part one isn't even finished. It was such a pain. I see. I see. So anyway, I found a very quick one.

I did do thorough research. There was just very little research to go off of. Which is sometimes nice because it's like, okay, at least I know I didn't skip or forget anything. But so I don't want anyone to think that I didn't do solid research just because I started in the middle of the night. I did do just as much research as I could on any other topic. This just happened to have very little information, which was perfect because it's what I needed at one in the fucking morning. And sometimes that's just when we do our finest work, you know? I really did lock the fuck in.

I was like, I have to figure out a story now. New Moon and Capricorn. Okay, I've been very into astrology lately. New Moon and Capricorn, lock in. That's the phrase. So this is the Old Teller County Jail, aka Cripple Creek Jail, a Kripple Creek Jail,

aka the Outlaws and Lawman Jail Museum. First of all, if you already have a cool name, like just chill, right? It's like, why do you need three of them? Like, let somebody else have a cool name for a second. Although it is very us-coded. Like, let's call it yappy hour and bone after dark and everything else. So, I mean, I can't judge. But anyway.

I also got really frustrated when I was like, oh, finally, not a lot of information. And then I saw something about, like, Ghost Adventures being involved. And I was like, please don't make me watch a whole 45-minute video right now. But apparently, this got a quick little shout-out in, like, some bonus footage that Ghost Adventures at some point put out. out because I think they went to Cripple Creek, which is in general a haunted place. Okay, okay. And I think there was like a kind of either a B-roll or like they mentioned that it was haunted. I didn't look, I didn't watch to be totally honest.

But someone said it gets a mention, but it does not have its own episode. A historian, a ghost adventures historian gave you that. Boots on the ground journalism. Man, I mean, that's that's good work. Noble work. Noble work, yes. So this is in Cripple Creek, Colorado. Love a triple C.

Love it. and it starts in 1890. So your house was about 23 years old. See, that blows my mind. I'm like, wait, what? This was a new build? A whole family had, like, raised children that had already moved down by then.

Oh, my God, that's so weird. I know. And the area, because every fucking time in the last couple episodes, I feel like I've been mentioning gold mines, and I'm not even trying to. I'm so tired of this. I'm getting out of these gold miners.

I just keep thinking, oh, this one's an agenda. different area. Surely it can't also be, oh my God, it's about gold. You're in a, you're in a little spiral there. I know. Gold spiral. I guess I'm picking out a lot of like gold rush era stories. So I need to just deal with it. But so 1890, the area became a literal gold mine when a cowboy, Christine, are you listening? Cowboy. Very closely. He discovered lots of gold in the water. Yeah, he did. And now he's a rich cowboy. Christine, are you listening? I'm already gone. I'm logging it. Well, I'm logging out or whatever my beer told me to do. I have a friend at the dog park who's from Wyoming, and he, well, I think a cowboy is exactly what we're hoping he finds.

You know what I'm saying? Oh, intriguing. Yep. Got it. I hope. I hope. And it's become a bit of a thing where a bunch of my friends of the dog park, their type is cowboy? It's very weird.

And by the way, a lot of people are from Wyoming. Like, I've met like three. That's cowboy country. Well, go back to Wyoming. That's where the cowboys are. Yeah. So maybe that's why they all want a cowboy. But I've met three people in the last week from Wyoming.

Have they met each other? Two of them have met each other. And then there was another and I was like, I got to get you involved in this Wyoming group. I was like, what the hell are you all doing here? Anyway, one of them obsessed with cowboys. And I think about you every time. Thank you.

Anyway, where were we? This hot cowboy, I assume, and he's rich. He discovered a lot of gold in the water. And within a few years, the, well, not even a few years, within one year, the town's population grew to an absurd number, but every source had a different answer. But an absurd number. One source literally fucking said the town population went from 15 to 37,000 overnight. And I went, no, it did not. No, it did not.

Words mean something, you know what I mean? The area became known as the greatest gold camp on earth. Whoa. Interesting. And per usual, that means with more people coming in very quickly, seemingly overnight, according to some sources, that means more bad guys started appearing in town because... That's how it goes. Of course. So, there needed to be a new jail. The rickety local jail that was made of like wood slabs, I think, it was like literally imagine an old Western movie and...

Where you can like walk out of the jail. Yeah, it's like the jail is the outhouse, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm assuming, especially those... The key is, like, hanging right there and you've got to, like, use a little hook to get the key. Especially if there was a, like, if only 15 people were in town. Oh my God, yeah, it's like you only use it for that one guy, you know? Yeah, you like check in to go to jail. He just sleeps in there and then it's, like, good for the day. Yeah. Exactly. So this Ricky Old Jail was built originally to hold the amount of people that should have been in town. But then after this gold brush a new jail had to be built because it just couldn't hold more than one person probably.

So a new jail needed to be built. They were already talking about it a couple years into this problem. Two different fires blew through town. Ended up knocking on the previous jail and they were like, well, that's a sign. Let's finally build this thing. So in 1901, they built a new, more fireproof than a fucking wood brick jail. And they call it the teller, County Jail. And I'm a little confused about the timeline. I feel like at some point they actually built a jail

before this one, and then that one didn't work out. So this is the second try to rebuild. I'm a little confused about that, but who cares? It's called the Teller County Jail. And it housed folks awaiting trial right across the street at the courthouse. It housed people with dealing with smaller crimes. It was a stopover.

jail for people who are being transferred to prison and mental facilities. The greater prison in the area, or the greater, one of them, either the greater prison or institution that people were being sent to was actually also in Wyoming. So the Cowboys and the Wyoming people are getting a lot of play in this episode so far. Yes. The common crimes for people who would actually go to this jail to stay at this jail for their entire sentence, it was mainly for sex work. it was mainly for larceny.

It was mainly for something gambling related, like cheating at cards or just fucking gambling. Like, I feel like that's just two counts immediately. I don't know. Back then, gambling was just a fun hobby. They all did. Maybe, yeah. Like Blackjack and I don't know.

What the hell do I know? A lot. Being drunk in public was a big one. So it was all like kind of silly things that I would imagine. Silly little things. I would imagine in the great. grand scheme of jails, I would feel safer in this one. Right.

Maybe than others. We don't have necessarily hardened homicidal maniacs in there. Yeah. Yeah, they were all just a little drunk or a little horny. You know what I'm saying? The longest sentence that anyone served here was one year. And fun fact, world heavyweight boxing champion. I know you love them.

Jack Dempsey stayed here for a while for petty larceny. He's, I think, their most notable. alum. Okay, yeah. I mean, even I know that name. Really? Jack Dempsey, yeah, but that's like probably the only, if you had said like name, anyone else. I would have been like, I don't know Muhammad Ali. I have no idea. I did not know this name, but multiple sources were like, Jack Dempsey was here and I'm like, okay, great. Yeah, I know about that guy. See, and you were like, what do I know? You know Jack Dempsey? In a very, very minimal way. well uh so he was there and when they did so they they built this thing as you know 1901 it cost 25,000

I'm assuming that's $25,000 of 1901 money so of course it did the math for you and that's pretty much a million dollars today. Woof. Okay. It was considered of course state of the art. They all are. We've got gold in the water, you know? At first I was like, that's a lot of money.

But then I'm like, well, but also they're finding like so much gold. I'm like, whoever's financing this better have like some access to this cold. as cold they're finding. That's a great fucking point, Christine. I hadn't even thought about that. Yeah, man. But one of the reasons it was stupid you would feel, though, if you were one of the first 15 people to live there,

and then all of a sudden the gold restart and you were like, wait, what? There was gold here, you know? Like, that would suck. You could just watch people, like, right through the window, like, finding gold. That's my backyard. Get the fuck out of here. Yeah. I'd be Shawshanking with, like, a spoon just to find gold, not even to escape.

I'd be like... I would be so stupid, like, looking, yeah, in my own house. And I'd be like, it's in the wrong. river dummy. Well, the reason it was considered state of the art is because it had electricity. It was 1901. Okay. And it had indoor plumbing, but that's kind of a big, bold, brave thing to say.

So did I, like a week ago, so good luck. And you have electricity. You're no better than a 1901 jail in Wyoming or Colorado. You know what? I'm always saying. That's what's on my plaque out front. It just, just a couple of cowboys trying to make it work. No better than a Wyoming prison in this place.

They had indoor plumbing, however, big words, because they did have, they had a shower and a toilet, but they had a shower and a toilet. Yeah. In the whole jail. A toilet. And it was upstairs, which was in the women's ward. And I think it was like reserved specifically for women. So if you were a guy, forget it. Sorry.

Female privilege, am I right? That's right. We're always just putting them down, you know. So they, I guess, could get away with saying, we have indoor plumbing, but it was like one pipe in their walls. Technicality. So for the rest of the jail, it was in total 14 cells. It was like not a very big jail. But they try to say in all the sources, it was built to house over a hundred people or to house up to 100 people.

But if you do the math, it's like 84. Because it was 14 cells. and I don't even know if we're including like the there was a matron who was like the female guard but she I think had to like fucking live there so she had one of the cells I think oh my lord there was a solitary confinement cell so that's two of the 12

where I don't even think you can put multiple people in but okay let's let's assume 14 cells that could fill everybody and at the time they were able to put six people into each cell they were very small cells they were six and a half by nine feet for six people so they didn't have room for the beds pretty much which i think is like nine by six yeah it was a it was insane that's disturbing yeah it's a cage it's a full just a cage um yeah that's actually a good way to put it the average um rug in a house i think is five

by seven or something. Yeah. So like six by nine is like slightly bigger. Yeah, that's that's like an alarming way to because then you can kind of like see it visually, you know. I, um, the other weird thing about it is because it was so small and no way could you fit six beds in there, they gave them hammocks attached to the ceiling. Oh God. And so and they're hanging from the ceiling. You can't like unhook it and then put it over here during the day. So you're standing in a six and a half by nine room with six sheets hanging from the ceiling. So vertically you don't even have room. It's like a haunted house.

You're just constantly moving those stupid things out of the way. Stupid body bags in those haunted houses. Yeah. At that point, you might as well just constantly be lying in that hammock. And sometimes someone is standing up to stretch their legs. Like, it's just atrophying. And their head like hits you in the butt. Yeah.

Like, I feel like that would be so frustrating. I think it was either three rows of two layers of hammocks or two rows of two layers, three layers of two rows That's just nuts And they also Because remember There's only one toilet And it's meant for the women

They got one chamber pot For six people Ooh So it was 1901 So that was totally fine And it's the old wild west And they could just get away With that shit I guess

I guess so There were two floors in the jail The bottom floor was the men's ward And there was 10 cells down there The four cells upstairs Were for the women And Chile children and a solitary confinement cell.

So I don't know if that's three for the women and one. I don't know if that's one solitary confinement, one for the matron guard, and then only two for the women and children. I don't fucking know. But there's four cells upstairs. Speaking of the kids, because this was a time where if you were a woman and went to jail and you were a mother, you were still expected to mother on the clock in jail. It's your job.

It's not your job. It's your duty. Well, where else are you going to put the kid with a fucking, like, cowboy? like a wild bus cowboy Um, so the first kid that stayed here was a four year old. Ugh.

Who, by the way, didn't even have parents. It was because this kid got lost in town and had no contact info for his family, didn't know where to go. And so he was just a ward of the state. A four year old. Boy, yeah, that hurts.

I guess until someone came and picked him up like lost and found. I don't fucking know. So sad. And they're like, let's put you in prison, son. Yeah. daycare, then the youngest kid that was there was 18 months old who was living there with their incarcerated mom. So the jail was, oh, like I said, okay, it was designed to hold six people per cell. But when regulations change, where they were like, this is fucking not sanitary and abusive.

And by the way, remember, this is state of the art. And it was known to be like the most sanitary jail that had been built. So it's like, what were the, um, others like. Yeah, I don't want to know, you know. It's like, that's just really makes us so much worse somehow. Is it just because like their floor had concrete and not dirt or something? Like, what are you talking about? Is it like, they were sleeping in hammocks? They were claiming, like, who knows? Yeah. Because, yeah. Because they had a toilet probably gave them points, even though it was one toilet, you know. They had no sinks, no showers. It was just a chamber

pot. It's not like this toilet worked well. Let's be real. Okay. You know it didn't. I bet they flushed it one time to celebrate that they had a toilet and they broke and they went well and then it was like now it overflows and it's somebody else's job 100%. So the regulations eventually caught on and they were like, we have to change the rules if this is what the world's greatest sanitary jail looks like. And also we can't have people sleeping in fucking hammocks six at a time on a rug sized cage. So they installed wooden, they installed one wooden bunk. per cell and they made the cells for only one person could only one person could stay in them, not six.

Whoa, so you went from six person cell to like, oh, this is your solo. You get a private room. Yeah, but also still probably no toilet. I'm not sure on the toilet. And you're in prison, but like so it went from six to one per cell. Wow. But the irony is that they built this place because the one that

existed back when the gold rush started was so small. They couldn't fit anyone in there. Right. So what's the point now? And now they've got this big, quote, bigger one that can quote, hold 100 people. And now can only hold up to like 15 people. So it's like back to square one. And no one even mentions that, by the way. That's just an observation I've made where I'm like, so only 15 people can stay here at a time.

That's like you might as well kept the old wooden one. Yeah, because you clearly had need for not need. Okay, that's a strong word. But like you clearly thought you had need for a big one because you were filling up the hammocks. So now, like, what's going on? Where are the rest of them going? Great point. I bet they were transferred to that Wyoming prison.

Probably true. So, yeah, ironically, the jail now could only hold as much as probably the original shack could. So also, I just wanted to mention the solitary confinement cell had no light shining through. It had a solid metal door. It was the only cell that had a solid metal door. The rest of them just had, like, classic bars. So they at least had, like, circulation and light. and like the ability to see others.

That's nice. The catwalk on the second floor was very flimsy. It was known to be incredibly flimsy. It only had one single thin railing. That freaks me out really those catwalks in those old jails. Especially when it's held together by like barely no parts. It was it seemed very easy to jump off of if you were in that mindset. It also seemed very easy to push someone off.

Mm-hmm. It was certainly easy to fall. In fact, one person did fall and died. And a lot of people who were here, like I said, were in the middle of being transferred to a worse prison, which meant they were more violent. So even though the people who were staying long sentences here were probably, like, safe to have as cellmates, there were also some dangerous people coming through. What coming through? Okay. And that catwalk was also probably a wonderful plan. if they wanted to hurt somebody or if they wanted to ends at all,

because if they're about to go to a worse prison where maybe something worse is going to happen to them, maybe this is their opportunity. So the catwalk just screams eerie and dark intentions. Yeah, not safe, not safe. So one, like I said, one inmate did definitely die on the catwalk by either falling or being pushed, we don't know. There is a basement that, I guess in the basement,

there's a room called the ice room because it was ice storage. but it was basically a temporary morgue as well because it was cold. Oh, of course. And under the staircase was actually another room. I only saw this on one source, so I hope this is true. Actually, I hope it's not true because it's fucking horrifying.

I hope I'm lying to all of you right now. I hope big breaking news, this is not real. Under the staircase, a small room was found and is thought to be where inmates would be used to give confessions under duress. Oh, God. For some reason, I think it was like right above the boiler or something because I saw on this one source that they think prisoners would get stuck in there or put in there when it was really hot to like basically steam them into confessions. Oh, God.

Okay. Like hot boxing, but not in the fun way. And then you're in the basement, the ice room if you're, okay, whoa, okay. And then if you get steamed too much, you end up in the ice room, yeah. So in the 90s, this place closed. In the 1990s, this place closed. So we were alive when this closed. And by the way, it would have stayed open because they built this thing to last.

So they never had to build another jail, ironically. And then they probably needed to because it was so small. But they built it to last, and that was the plan. but the only reason they ended up having to close is because they needed a rec yard and I guess either couldn't afford it or didn't have space for it. But that was the only reason. They just didn't have a rec yard. Otherwise, it was still up to standard. Interesting. So I mean, I'm glad they found something to kind of shut it down. Like it needed to be, sounds like. And every jail I've covered, it's like, oh, it ends up being decommissioned or closed because of overpopulation or because it's not

sanitary anymore or the conditions are poor but like it's this was totally fine they were just like you need a yard and they were like well we don't have that and they're like well that's the new regulation but have you seen our toilet have you seen everyone toilet have you seen it um in 2007 uh it reopened so from the 90s to the early 2000s in that like 10 year span it was closed it reopened as the outlaws and lawman jail museum okay open open around $5 admission for adults. Love it. And the old jailer's office, you know

I love this, the old jailer's office is now a gift shop. Okay, I love it. The museum obviously has tours, ghost tours, I'm assuming, as well. And lots of the furniture in there and like the decor, it's all original from the jail, which is super eerie that there's like the height markers

when people would get processed are still there. Drawings on the wall from inmates are still there. Well, like, if you think it would close in the 90s and then 20 years later, 10 years later, it was made into a museum, that's pretty, yeah, like 10, 15 years. That's wild. That's like, closing and being like, all right, I'm going to start, we just close this prison. I'm going to start plans to set it up as a, I mean, it's pretty wild.

Like, if you had been housed there or been in prison there in, like, the 80s or it just must be so weird to be like, oh, now it's a museum. feel like a lot of times I've been on like jail ghost tours or jail history tours. And if it closed recently, then like inmates come on the tour. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. That happened on Alcatraz where they have people come. I mean, that's an extreme example. But yeah, I've seen that as well. That's a good point. I can't imagine the, talking about like what therapists do for us. I can't imagine psychologically what it's like to see like your head. hell being an attraction.

And also being able to just, and the concept of getting to be free in the space where you had no freedom. Yeah, but also being charged five bucks and being like, really? Because I got in, I got in free last time. Now, Christine, if you did stand up, that is a punchy one right there. That's a good one. I just do sit down. You know what I mean?

Now that's a dad joke. You're killing it. Um, but I, I would imagine if this closed in the 90s, there are a lot of people who've probably gone in that were once there. And yeah, you'd think. They're like, oh, there's a fucking toilet again. You can't imagine what we used to say about that thing. Or, oh, those, those are the hookholes where the hammocks used to be. I used to buy this hammock. Good old Jimmy McGee's to have night terrors up there. You know, there is one room that they still have the hammocks showing. Like they, like they left. they left it so that way you could see what the original inmates. It is a curiosity. Like it's like, what do you mean hammocks?

I mean, yeah, it's a totally a curious. This solitary confinement cell you can walk in and sit in, you know? And again, I imagine being someone who was like incarcerated there and you're like, yeah,

you take someone with you and they're like, let's go into solitary confinement cell. And they're like, let's not actually. Let's how about we don't. Last time was bad for me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, okay, as for the ghosts, a lot of sounds. We're hearing voice. A lot of EVPs. There were some websites that just had the EVPs ready for you to listen to if you wanted. That feels like a very jail thing.

Is that weird? I don't know. I feel like there's so many EVPs in jails. And I wonder if it's like, oh, that was one of the only modes of communication. Like you couldn't necessarily touch anyone because you're in the, I mean, you know, theoretically when you're alive. But I don't know. It just always strikes me that there are so many like very clear EVPs from jails. You are totally right.

I agree. And a part of me feels like it's because jails are echoy. that's true too like you would hear everything so like even if it's someone upstairs that's a good point like it's not like in a house where everyone's kind of privately like locked away I talked yeah yeah yeah and I wonder if it's because um I don't know if hauntings are if this is like oh this is repetitive from something that actually happened in history or if this is if we're being haunted by someone's memory so all they all they remember are the sounds I don't know yeah

Wow, ooh, haunted by their memory. Oh, that's creepy. I hadn't thought of that. Now you can fall asleep nicely tonight. Yeah, sure I will. So you can hear voices, you hear EVPs. There's a lot of heavy breathing.

Yuck. Cool. Door slams, keys jingling. The most popular is footsteps pacing from, like in a way where you can hear the pattern of a path being walked. Ooh, like patrolling, sort of? Like patrolling.

So like you could, if you're standing in a hall, you can hear the footsteps coming towards you and then kind of going away as if it walked past you and then eventually hearing it build back up to you. Like, yucco. Most of the heavy breathing, by the way, and also if you run into a cold spot, that happens on the catwalk, which part of me is like, do they let people stay on that fucking catwalk? I guess so. I don't know. Maybe it's just near it. But one employee heard, speaking of sounds, they heard an invisible. stack of papers drop on the floor near them, which...

That's so specific. So specific and so jarring because that's not just a slam. That's a slam and a scatter. And then you hear like, yeah. Oh, oh, how weird. Because like, you wouldn't say that unless you really were like, no, that's what that was. Like that... I accidentally bumped into a stack of papers, yeah.

You'd say like a heavy object. But like a stack of papers, yeah, that's quite a specific sound. And he never found anything. He just knows that that was the sound he heard. in the men's ward in those cells people see dark masses moving around especially in the back but they see dark shadows and masses dancing around in there and in the women's section especially in the matron or female guards room people say that they still feel someone monitoring the area a few people have actually sworn that they've seen the full-bodied apparition of rosy who was the matron

of the ward. She's said to still be seen in her room. She's also seen upstairs, like, looking down to you. Also in her room, people will find items just sitting on her bed that shouldn't be in the jail and they just appear. So one person actually found marbles sitting in the bed. Confiscated. She confiscated them.

Oh, that's an interesting take. My thought was that, like, because that was also where the kids lived. So maybe they were, there was a kid toys. But you're right, they would also gamble with marbles. So maybe. So my first gut instinct was, oh my God, she's so confiscating shit. That's funny, though. If you lose your stuff, you should go, like, look in her room.

I bet you, yeah. She's like, who told you you could have a lip gloss in here? Yeah. I'm pretty sure that this is my burkin, so. Yeah. Who allowed that this is now confiscated material. Sorry, my burken bag. Don't you think.

the lip glass in it and the marbles. Not to gaslight you, but I actually, you didn't walk in here with your, with those Jimmy Chues. Those are mine. Incorrect. Now go back on the catwalk without your Jimmy Chooze on. Who goes into a fucking person with Jimmy Chuse and a

Birken bag? What? I feel like it's like an episode of the Kardashians. They're like, oh my God, so cute. That feels like a weird poll that I would make from like my minimal understanding of luxury goods, which is probably what. just happened.

Like, we're just like, we know those names. My brain was filing through the Rolodex of like, what's a crazy brand? Yeah, it's good.

So, um, yeah, one person actually said that they have seen Rosie and she told them in some way that she is still watching over her post. Wow. Okay, she takes it seriously.

Very seriously. And a male officer has also been seen through the jail, mainly, um, from windows watching people. and he also has been seen trying to come into the building after hours as if he like left something in there. One time an employee actually saw him either standing outside, waiting to be let in or was walking in and trying to get to the door. But they thought it was a tourist and they had been closing up for the night.

So she walked outside to say, sorry, we're closed and the guy vanished. Imagine being like him and being like, I'm literally going back to my office and like, we're closed. What? I feel like he didn't even hear. or what she had to say. He just vanished through her and went, get out of my way. I'm going to my fucking job.

I've heard that one before. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When the employee later described him to the rest of the staff, they were able to, like, confirm that that was the jailer that they either also seen or knew about. I'll be honest. I don't love that he's coming back at night to go into the jail. I'm like, what is he up to? And why?

Not only that, like, because I'm like, okay, yeah, you forgot something. Why is that replaying, like, repeatedly? Like, that just feels. Great point. Like, what's the energy of this that he's coming back in repeatedly? like what was he doing? I also like I didn't see anything about this and I feel like it would have made news. So because I don't know about it, I'm assuming it did not happen.

But my guess would be like maybe that's like an inmate killed him or something. Like he went in and this is like his last moment. That was like the final moments. And he's like, get out of my way. But again, there was there's no like no news or information that something happened like that. Maybe he just always came back at night. Maybe he was just as committed to his job as Rosie. and he was like, I need to be here.

They need to get a hobby, is what I say. Maybe they were dating. Oh, see, that's what I'm saying. There's something more to that. You wouldn't just keep repeating as a ghost coming back. Like, that's just something's up there. There's something to motive. If she had to stay there, which I don't even know if that's true,

but it sounds like if she had her own fucking cell, basically, it sounds like she lived there. But maybe they turned it into an office or something. Well, she had that Birken bag and he was probably like, that's hot. He was in defeat and she was in those Jimmy shoes, I know. How can you? you say no. But that would be a fun little tale as old as time where like they're still in love in the afterlife.

I wonder they're so committed to their jobs. Yeah. No wonder she's just always there. So devoted to the task. I'll tell you about it during Yappiore. I have an add on, but it'll take us way far off. Cool. Children have also been seen in the jail, which is very sad.

but they've been seen upstairs looking out of windows. I'm sure that they are some of the voices people here are the footsteps. People also see lights on in the building, even though apparently I think there's no electricity in parts of the prison anymore. That's creepy. That's not cool. I don't know if I can totally believe that if there's a gift shop in there. That's true.

And like presumably cash registers and such. Right, right. It's a museum. But I do know that people see lights in the building when there should not be like. It's not good. Like if I were passing in jail, electricity or not, and the lights turn on in one of the cells and it's nighttime and I know nobody's there. Yeah. Yeah.

No. Doors in the building will fly open on their own. I saw that everywhere. So I'm assuming this is something people have seen. One time a Bible and Rosary appeared in the basement and nobody knew whose it was. Yuck. Oh, God. And the solitary confinement cell gives off really intense energy.

That makes people feel like they need to escape and that someone is. holding them hostage in there or that they that someone is standing there ready to slam the door in their face and lock them in no wonder that like the door slam open if that's the energy there like get me out you know that's a great point yeah or maybe there was a jail break there were a few jail breaks there so maybe this is like energy from that anyway that is the cripple creek jail aka the old teller county jail aka the outlaws and lawman jail museum that was really good um for especially for the last minute, damn. Not my first rodeo.

Damn, too. No comment on, for both of us. Wow. Well, I'll be right back because I have to pee and plug my light in and just like, just like give my toilet a word of gratitude to say. Thank you for being here and for working today, I hope. Just give some thanks to the potty. Okay. Well, well, well, it's been a much time since I got to brag about my Quince wardrobe, my

friends, okay? I didn't even think to wear it today. Basically still my pajamas, but every time I leave the house, it's now in something that's quince because I've kind of gotten rid of decluttered everything else and then everything that left behind. Not intentionally. I was like, oh, that makes sense. All the things that fit me the best are the highest quality and I wear over and over again. They are all quince. I don't know how it happened. I, um, I got to be honest, bought me a blazer a while ago. I've talked about it already in one of these ads. It's the finest I've ever looked. Sharper than a pencil. I'm telling you. They have also, Quince works directly with safe ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen

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Go to quince.com slash drink for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. Yay. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com. slash drink to get free shipping and 365 day returns quince.com slash drink. Christine, I'm so happy we're here, but also really wish I was anywhere else. And by anywhere else, I mean, in my bed. And do you want to know why?

I got me a Helix mattress. Oh, my God, these things are, I'm telling you. I tell everyone now. Cloud. I'm happy to be here, but I am still thinking about Dreamland. I miss her. I miss her. And I only, the one-way ticket is in my bedroom.

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And Helix helps you sleep better. A study that they ran found that 82% of those involved saw an increase in their deep sleep cycle while sleeping on a Helix mattress can confirm me and my dog both sleep like it's the end of the world and we can't hear a single thing because we're on the compus mattress in the world why would we get up? Of course. Go to Helixleep.com slash drink for 20% off sitewide. That's helixlexlep.com slash drink for 20% off site wide. Make sure you enter our show name after checkout so they know that we sent you,

helixleep.com slash drink. All right, everyone. We are back. I have a weird one for YouTube. today. It's a little different. I'd originally heard of this case via case file. I think it was like earlier this year. And then stumbled upon it on Netflix somewhere, confession tapes, I think. And then went into a little bit of a deep dive because I thought I knew what was going on and now I'm not really sure. So I'm curious to hear what you think. By the way, I never really do it like this with

my iPad. So this is kind of new to me. I'm trying to find a better like setup. I just feel like I don't look professional usually when I record, so I'm trying. But if this is distracting. Maudless, let me know if it's distracting. This is the story of Vincent Via4, and we're going to jump right into it. So Angelica Groswald and Vincent Via 4, they were a couple living together in New York City in 2013. Their relationship progressed quickly, and they became engaged within only five months of meeting. They lived together part-time and frequently traveled together, including outdoors.

doorsy stuff like kayaking and hiking. Angelica was born in Latvia and immigrated to the U.S. as an adult. Friends and acquaintances described her as multilingual, well-educated, very intellectually curious. She and Vincent lived in New York City, and he worked as a project manager for the state of New York while she worked in education-related roles like tutoring, substitute teaching, that kind of thing. Nice. Angelica described herself as an experienced kayaker. She'd been taken she'd taken kayaking courses in the past and was familiar with like river conditions

tides safety practices Vincent meanwhile he was 46 years old so 11 years older than Angelica those who knew him described him as also outdoorsy well versed in things like kayaking hiking

he was social physically active he was known to enjoy travel and kayaking hiking he had two children from a previous relationship and was described as deeply committed to them and maintained regular contact. Friends described him as generous, enthusiastic. He was also described as impulsive and a party animal. And he's like in his 40s.

So I think that sort of had morphed. I mean, this is just my perspective and I could be wrong. But it felt like that perspective had morphed from like he's such a fun guy to like, okay, he can be a little out of control. Like he can. Like at a certain age, people are like, oh, why aren't you going home? Like it's not cute anymore sort of vibe. Is my, totally my take on vibes.

There's nothing more than that here. So don't take my word for it. So they live together in New York. In the days leading up to April 19th, with 2015, Angelica and Vincent planned a kayaking excursion on the Hudson River with the intention of visiting a place called Bannerman Island. Have you heard about this place? Not even a little bit, no.

Okay, I would Google it if you are able to. It's beautiful for a random island off the coast of New York City. Like, it's really cool. What? I feel like this is a little hidden gem. Isn't it? Isn't it just? So it's on the Hudson.

Created in built in 19. So what is it? EST, no, Circa, 1901. It was a military surplus warehouse, I believe, if I'm remembering correctly. Okay. And it's since been abandoned basically. but you can, you know, boat there and poke around. And essentially they were, it was one of her favorite,

Angelica's favorite places because being from Latvia, she felt like this was so removed of a vibe from New York City. She felt like, oh, this reminds me of Europe. She would volunteer there actually regularly. So she was part of like a volunteer committee that worked on the island. And she and Vincent were actually planning to do engagement photos there. Nice. Because they were engaged to be married.

And one other thing to add to that note is that they were both divorced twice, I believe. So even though they were both relatively young, they had had a couple of relationships in their past. He had two kids, I believe, but I will double check that. And she did not have any. And so they're kind of living this semi-child-free. life, you know, in New York and he still likes to have a good time every now and then. But generally people were like, oh, they're a pretty handsy, cutesy couple. Like, they're just very affectionate.

They are outdoorsy. You know the type. You know the type. So they were going to Bannerman Island apparently to do a racy photo shoot. Oh, racy. Yeah. Okay. I know.

that feels like one of those questions on that. MySpace quiz, we just did. Like, have you ever done a racy photo shoot? To which I say, have you? Maybe. What does that mean? Like a boudoir situation?

No, I've never, I've wanted to do that. I've never done that. It was more of, oh God, this is not supposed to be for the main feed. It's supposed to be for a yappy hour only. I've admitted too much. Tell us. No.

You are the little devil. You're the fucking hot stuff in my ear. Yes, I think I have just impromptu, you know. When? In 2018. Okay. That's too far away for me to know the people probably in the story. So my interest is a little lower if that helps.

2018, I want you to know, was like a year-in-war podcast. Wait, it's podcast. Wait, do I know about this? No. I don't think anyone in the world, including me, sober me, has any clue about this. Oh, I see. I see. This was a silly little wine moment. It was just like a, maybe like a honeymoon thing, you know? Oh, I see. Okay. Cool. So nothing like that weird. No, that's not weird at all. No, no, no. It's just something I've never thought about again, I think. Uh-huh. And now I'm like, oh, wow. Okay. How much do I say? Good for you. There's no shame in that. Good for you. Listen. You know. Good for you. Good times. I bet it was blast. Fiers were like a dollar down there. It was great. Girl, I bet you had a great time.

I had a big hat. Like, what are you going to do? No judgment from us. This is what happens to when I listened to, I sent you that clip the other day of ladies and tangents where I'm like, I listened to that and I'm like, suddenly Lucy Goosey. I'm like, I'll say whatever, you know, because there's. so open and they'll say like anything, everything. They have some boundaries, but they will say so much openly that like sometimes I forget I'm on our podcast. Nothing. Anyway, whatever. You married the guy. So the pictures are probably incredible. Very true. They're probably going to haunt Leona someday when she accidentally puts like some SD card or logs into I-Cloud. I don't know. You know, it's nothing that bad. Then she'll get older and then she'll go, good for my parents. I hope so. I can only hope so okay so they were going to do a racy photo shoot um i've never done one outside my lingerie if we're

oh oh oh oh no i've never done one ever at all i was like wow we switch that up quick jack cut that out no oh my god no no what if i just gaslit you and was like what are you talking about that would have been crazy i would have been like i hope that somebody else heard that yeah no like the evidence has to be here somewhere um no okay racy racy photos sorry i've never done like an outdoor like, you know, in public type of, I'm just like to be specific. I don't know. Eventually, if we let me be specific enough, eventually you're just going to tell us the whole thing. I just can't shut the book. I'm going to. Wow. Okay. How do you think I get in these situations, you know? Yeah. Anyway, okay, so let's get back to now I'm embarrassed. Okay, let's get back to Bannerman

Island. I'm not really. I'm just, I'm embarrassed that my cheeks are red and then it makes my cheeks more red. You're embarrassed that you look embarrassed. Yeah, exactly. Gotcha. You get it. Okay, so they are planning this. So they're planning to have a few drinks with friends. And then they're going to go do this racy photo shoot on Bannerman Island, which is also where they were going to do engagement photos.

She feels really drawn to this place. Does volunteer work there? So this is the plan. So originally that day, the weather was okay. It wasn't too bad. It was like, but it was April in New York. So it's like, it's not warm, right? Like the temperature of the water, I believe, was around 40 or 45.

And like, they said a few minutes in that and you have hypothermia. So I don't think this is like, it's a beautiful day. Right. But they wanted to do it anyway. And I think they had planned it in advance. And so despite the weather looking a little choppy and windy, but mostly later in the day, they felt like comfortable enough to go ahead with their kayaking trip. So they launched from Plum Point and successfully reached Bannerman Island earlier in the day.

And as far as we know, nothing distressing happened during that portion of the trip. There was this couple interviewed on, I believe it was a Netflix confession tapes who said, and they were mentioned in some other reporting, but they were witnesses to like make the timeline of this because she's like, we have binoculars that look at Bannerman Island just stationed in our house. So my husband like spotted them. And I'm like, doing a racy photo shoot? Like I'm like thinking about it now. All of a sudden, he was like, wow, these binoculars really came in handy today.

It was like, of course I'm not faulting you for having binoculars. It's a cool place to look at, I guess. But like the fact that they were part of the timeline, which means like, oh, we saw them doing a racy photo shoot. I'm like, this is. With great power comes great responsibility, yeah. Right. And apparently they knew each other. So this wasn't even like a weird thing.

I would have put it my phone camera through the binoculars and been like, guess what we just saw? Yeah. Like Snapchat it. Yeah. With like no regard for consequences like during the MySpace days and we would just say and do anything on the internet. Yep.

Yeah. So that was just like a funny tidbit to me because, I mean, first of all, they were witnesses. so they like confirmed that the two of them made it to the island and then I'm like okay but like can we talk about this racy photo shoot you apparently were like binocularing into I don't know um nobody seems to mention that part but fair enough alas alas I asked the hard hitting questions on our podcast okay so they're on this island having their racy photo shoot this is confirmed by binocular wielding neighbors And as far as we know, nothing distressing has happened at this point. The return journey, though, is where everything goes wrong.

There were deteriorating conditions. It was getting windy. It was getting colder. The currents were getting stronger. And the sun is going down. So you know, like, you can feel it getting colder. That evening, April 19, 2015, a couple hours later, Angelica Groswald called 911 from the Hudson River and told the dispatcher that she is on the Hudson River,

her fiance fell in the water and she cannot reach him because of strong wind, waves, and current. She says he's getting farther away and he is not going to make it. He's going to drown. It's horrible because you're just watching it happen. Yeah. And you can hear the call, you know, on the recording. And you can hear a recording of the call. It's upsetting.

Angelica provides info that places them on the river near Cornwall on Hudson and Bannerman Island. in the same call, she indicates Vincent does not have a life jacket on. And she said he's holding on to some sort of small cushion or float, something like that. And she also explained to dispatch that she was struggling to control her own kayak and position in the water. So rescuers responded and she was rescued before being taken to the hospital for hypothermia. Vincent was nowhere to be found, unfortunately. So in the days after Vincent disappeared, Angelica was questioned repeatedly by New York State Police because as the way they described it, they did not like how they didn't, they felt a red flag about her reaction, like, or lack thereof to the event, which I'm like, one of the examples that the investigator gave was, oh, when she was sitting in the ambulance afterwards, she was just like, staring and not. So shocked.

Like, crying. Exactly. I was like, isn't that the literal definition? Like, just frozen, you know? It was just weird to me where I thought, like, I feel like we're putting pieces in that don't necessarily fit, but. Yeah. I feel like that's also, no matter what, it would be wrong because then if she was crying, then she's maybe like too emotional or it looks suspicious.

We see that all the time where people like fake emotions and it looks even like worse, you know. I think I would be in full-blown shock if something were to happen traumatic right before my very eyes and watching the love of my life get ripped away. And you're also like at risk for your life, you know, like you might not even survive. So you're having like a life and death experience while watching someone else that you love die in front of you. Yeah, exactly. So it was weird to me that people were like claiming that was the first red flag. But I mean, maybe there was more to it than that. but the actual explanation or example that the investigator gave on Netflix was like,

she was sitting in the back of the ambulance and she didn't look very upset. And I was like, what? That's like not a thing. That's not a thing. People have handled that shit in so many different ways. Especially for like a woman. It's like, oh, because she's a woman, she's supposed to be hysterical. I don't know.

Right. But then if she was crying, she would be hysterical. Exactly. Exactly. So it's like, it just felt really icky to me. But anyway, I digress. So they started questioning her. and they saw some inconsistencies between Angelica's 911 call,

the physical evidence they were collecting, and her retelling of events. And they sort of wanted to swoop in. Her version of events when she was questioned was that they had had a few beers with friends, went on a kayaking trip thinking it would be decent weather, planning to do this racy photo shoot. She said they went out there, took some photos, and on the return trip, Vincent's kayak tipped, and he couldn't stay afloat as he wasn't wearing a life jacket.

Police were like, we're not so sure. So they found her calm to be unusual and apparently suspicious. Sometimes she speaks quietly. Other times she speaks almost like clinically or like, I would say more like philosophically. Which I feel like is like to me is very normal. Like I mean not to be that guy just saying I just got into astrology. but like as an Aquarius moon and rising. I'm sort of like I understand that like detached feeling, you know, if I were in a traumatic

state like you were saying, I feel like I would dissociate and be like, let me think about this from like a clinical perspective. Like I could totally see myself pulling out of it emotionally and being practical. Yes, practical, very like straightforward. And then every now and then getting quiet and upset or whatever. Spiraling and then locking back in. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. I didn't find it that odd, but this is all supposedly part of the prosecution's side of things. And again, I don't really know what I believe about this case. So. Interesting. Okay. Good to know. Yeah. I'm curious what you're going to think, honestly. Me too. Yeah. Okay. So I will say, despite my, like, grand defense of her, of her behavior during interrogations,

she had behaved pretty strangely in the days after Vincent's death. So she had posted some odd things online, including videos of her doing cartwheels, smoking a cigar, taking shots. Like it just felt like, whoa, whoa, whoa, what are we celebrating? You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. The vibe was, the vibe was off. I will say it was 2000, what was it, 2015?

So like, so like Instagram was just taking off and it feels kind of like Yeah. Something you would post Instagram, but not after your Fiancee just died. No, I don't know. I don't know what the etiquette would have been then because it feels like like social media was still discovering itself. So it's like you don't know what is normal to post or not. I feel like social media back then was almost like more separate from your identity.

Like now it's sort of like, oh, this is my identity. Well, or whatever I want to present as much. my identity. But I feel like, I mean, I could be wrong, but I feel like it was a more like when it's on, it's on, when it's off, you're not thinking. It's not like part of us the way it is now. I don't know if that's true though, but that's kind of how I remember it. It was more impersonal. Like it was just like, here's my breakfast. It was something, yeah, it was something that like, they were essentially just snapshots. It was like making a photo album in some way. Right. Exactly. Versus like, oh, this is my entire life. There were like influencers.

Yeah. Oh my God. So weird. Yeah, it's weird to think about. But that was kind of the era that this was taking place in. So I will say yes, it is not a great look to be like smoking cigars doing shots on Instagram, like within days of your, of your fancies. Yeah, not cute. Was it a, was it footage from before he passed? Okay. It was present day. And so it was just off putting, okay, is what I will say. Sounds like it. Yeah. I'm not saying it's illegal. but it is to me a little bit off-putting. But so either way, they were looking at her. And like I said earlier, Angelica volunteered at Bannerman Island regularly. She was close with some of the other volunteers and was actually heading out there one day to volunteer

when the police just happened to be wandering the island, looking for clues. They were sort of like lying in wait. Like they knew she was going to come there to volunteer and they just wanted to accidentally run into her is the implication that the fed. that the defense gave. But it was a bit of a setup.

But that's what the defense claims. I will say the police claimed like, oh, she said she was going to meet us there. And it's like he said, she said, you know, I don't know. But from her side of things, they were just kind of like hanging out there waiting for her to show up. And to be fair, there are pictures of these police officers,

like picking up fake evidence, like taking selfies on the island. Like you can tell they're not really. there for clues they're there to like spring a trap on her yeah it's it just feels gross and like they're on a boat they're taking selfies and it's just like what do you again like this was before we understood how like tied to our phones we would be someday because like you just wouldn't do that now i don't think or maybe some idiots would i'm sure i could see someone when they think they've got a second off the clock like oh look we're by this water or It's pretty look at this picture.

But yeah, especially then it would have been weirder because nobody was taking pictures on their phone the way that we take pictures now. Yeah. And I also feel like it would have had to be like a digital camera or something, which is so strong. Maybe not. I guess if people had Instagram, they had like iPhones. But it's just odd. And like there are photos where they're like picking something up that's invisible to be like,

look, we're getting clues, you know, like fake clues. So it's like they're obviously like faking it. They're just being trying to be funny, I guess. I don't know. So I kind of tend to believe they were lying in wait, basically, just hoping to run into her, but it's a setup. So a volunteer who was interviewed claims that she heard one of the cops say, like after Angelica got there, one of the cops say to another cop,

it's your turn. Get that bitch to tell you the story. This is what this volunteer thinks she hurt. Tale as old as time. Maybe it's not real, but maybe it is. Correct. So Decordo is kind of, he's the investigator on this, like the lead investigator, and I was hesitant to put this in my notes, but I'm going to say it anyway.

He's kind of a slimy dude. That is my opinion. That's my honest opinion. I wasn't sure how I felt at first. But then watching the actual footage, I felt like I could garner a little guess here as to like how I feel about him. He's the one who goes to step aside, have a private conversation with her,

tell her, you know, you're safe with me, just tell me what happened, this must be so hard, whatever. They have this private off-air chat on the island. And nothing's recorded. Okay, so we don't, this is all alleged on his part. Okay. The way that it's described is that they're talking,

about how hard this is and like why does she feel so upset and distraught and guilty and uh she mentions that there wasn't a plug in vincent's kayak. Hmm. And he's like, hold up. What do you mean? There's no plug in the kayak. And she's like, oh, well, it fell out. And my, like, I remember one of the clips she literally says, my cat liked to play with it. She's like, it fell out. And so I didn't put back in because the cat was playing with it and I knew it wasn't in there. So she's like admitting to this? She's saying, yeah, I knew this plug wasn't in there. And so he is like, oh my God, I've got her.

Like, this is it. Here's a thing, though. He's picturing, like probably what you're picturing, what I was picturing, like a plug in the bottom of the kayak that like you pull and it just, it's actually this drainage hole at the top sort of that's meant it's not, it's not. it's not meant it doesn't get water in it like it's not like if it's out the boat sinks it's just not how it works it's like a minimal part of i'm thinking of like loony tunes and if the plug comes undone and water's sprinkling and like the acme branded uh bathtub plug yeah yeah so that's kind of

what i was picturing and of course he latches onto this as i think we all probably would um and they make this like the entire center point of their case without even kind of bothering to look into it. And you have to remember, like, language is a barrier here, too. Like, she's from Latvia. And, you know, she speaks incredible English, but it's also, like, the nuances of conversation, especially when someone's being manipulative for their job as a police officer, as an investigator. Like, you're being manipulated, you know, one way or the other. It just felt like an unfair battle, I feel like she didn't quite know what she was getting herself into. And that becomes abundantly clear because they basically say, will you come to the station

with us? But they frame it more like, oh, you're coming to the station with, she never realized, I'll say it now. She never realized she could be like, no, you know, sure. Like, she just thought, oh, okay, like, I have to go to the station. Like, she just kind of did everything she thought she was supposed to do. According to Case Fowles reporting, her dad worked in law enforcement in Latvia, so she had this kind of understanding of like, oh, I trust law enforcement. Trust the police. Okay. Like, I trust them.

They're going to like just understand what I'm saying. And like, you know, she just had a totally different understanding than most of us do about like the American legal system and the, you know, how this all unfolds. Yeah. So it's a little bit hard to, oof, relay. But essentially he's picturing like what you said, like a drainage plug that sinks the kayak. and she says, I know that the plug wasn't in there. He presents it in a way where she's sort of admitting to murder. Right.

That's what I assumed. I was like she's admitting that she just like, even if it was accidental murder, like manslaughter, she's saying we took off without a plug and now it's filling up water. And I knew about it. Yeah. So he thinks she's admitting to murder and he says, I'm taking you back to the station. And he does all these smar-mey things. Like he's saying, you're a pretty.

girl and he like puts his hand on her leg to be like affectionate and like ugh it's just gross like you can tell and he's like and she had said something like oh she finds him attractive or something and you can tell he's just like leaning into it's just gross the whole thing so anyway uh he's he's he's he's of course one of the ones in the selfie by the way on the uh oh of course of course you didn't have to tell me by the way i i assume i know you knew So basically now that they're on the record, they're being taped and everything, he's like, I need you to tell me again about the plug. Like say what you said earlier. And she's like, okay. And she's not quite saying what he wants her to say. He wants her to clearly say like, oh, I pulled the plug on his kayak and killed him, you know, and drowned him on purpose. That's what he's like hoping for. He's like talking in circles a little bit and she's just kind of nodding along. And people talk about that too as a point of like being an immigrant in this country and like the people were discussing it on Reddit and saying like what do what's your take on the on this interrogation. And people have said like, you know, as someone who is an immigrant or knows an immigrant family or whatever, there's often this like innate reaction, which is like to just be affirmative like yes to like convey that you understand.

Right. even if you don't necessarily understand or even if you're just trying to like be I don't know part of the conversation there's just like this kind of instinct to verify or to acknowledge like understanding and I feel like that could be play into this and I just mentioned that because there's so much debate online about like how much of this is cultural versus sure she's a murderer you know it's just there's really a wide range. What a sticky gray space. Yeah, yeah.

What a place to land. Yikes. So they're trying everything they can to get her to admit, admit that she killed her her fiance. And she's kind of like nodding along, trying to like understand and like having a back and forth. He tells her this is like therapy for you. What?

He's so. What the fuck? Who? I'm immediately over him. Yeah. I was over. I was over him. I'm over him now.

We're over him. I'm over him. I literally, okay, so first of all, I'm at... Detective DeCorteau. Detective, Pff, more like it. I mean, imagine that the person you love... The farto, you know. Yeah, Detective Farto, yeah.

Detective Flatchelins. I, like, imagine the person you love. drifting away, screaming for help. There's a language barrier. You're on a fucking island. When you finally get found out, you think you should be able to trust the system as we all should be able to and yet can't.

And then we get there. That's the other thing to remind. Like, we should inherently have, be able to. If all things were well, we should. You're right. They're supposed to be protecting us. It's like the, exactly. But like, imagine like going through everything she,

assuming that she's innocent here, imagine going through everything she's gone through and this shock that she is in, she's probably trying to hold it together because she knows on top of wanting to grieve, she has a whole language barrier to prevent herself from jail. Like that. Okay. So, okay. So, exactly. And also, she didn't even realize at this point that she was like on the hook.

No, yeah. She did not understand. She really didn't understand. So she's just feeding them information. She's just like giving them the story. Like, she's like, well, this is what happened. And it gets, it goes bad because of course she doesn't know she's supposed to call a lawyer, you know, and all this. And like, you made a point about grieving and like you're supposed to be, there's this language barrier. And people have also discussed like in Lavia, they even interviewed her family and people from her neck of the woods, so to speak. And they were like, oh, you don't cry in public. You don't show emotion in life. Like that's, I don't know how true this is. This is just a couple of people who said it on the. documentary, but they were like, of course she's not going to like cry and wail hysterically

in public. Like we're trained to not do that. That's culturally like we need to have it all together. Like we need to put up a mask in a facade. And that's so many additional layers. First of all, I don't know how you train somebody to not cry when the person they love is dying in front of them or maybe going to die in front of them. That's crazy. That's wild. Like I could never do. I would, I would fail in Lafayette. I mean, I think that was more shock probably. And like she certainly had much she had a lot of grieving like she wasn't like totally no no what i'm saying is i i can't imagine publicly keeping that shit together oh yeah no no no she probably just wants to go home and finally let loose and scream cry like i like like like lose her mind and yet she's but now she's like

under scrutiny yeah yeah i like she already has to disassociate that much if culturally she believes that's what she's supposed to do right right and like they're not even letting her leave to go properly grieve privately because now they're holding her where she's She's trying to be nothing but cordial, but it looks, now it looks suspicious and, yeah. And she's on her period. That fucking poor girl. I know. And like.

Like, and she's still not crying, by the way. Like, she's like, like, she's just like sitting with all of this and just feels uncomfortable and is in pain probably. Okay. What? Caviats. She claims she was, she alleges she was on her period and that they were giving her hard time about going to the bathroom. Oh my God. I know. So I want to point that out. Secondly, she was doing like yoga and other things in the room. And people have always pointed to this to be like, who the fuck does like sun salutation in the interrogation room? And it's sort of like, isn't she crazy? And it's like, okay, she's on her period allegedly. She's, this is 11 hours of interrogation. Yeah, she needs to stretch. She's just like, whatever. Maybe she has cramps. Maybe she's just stretching. Who the fuck knows. Maybe like sensory wise, she's just like trying to like get some energy out because she

she still hasn't, she still hasn't been allowed to fucking cry. So like maybe she's just like trying to like be active and distract herself. Yeah, it just feels like it's as, pardon my pun, like a stretch to say, oh, that's just her proving that she killed him. It's like, I don't see the correlation there, you know? I don't care how sad I am. If I sat for 11 hours, I would have to stretch. Yeah, it feels like a weird thing to not. And I think maybe this is again where the time, like the, the zeitgeist is like so different. Like nowadays, if you saw someone doing stretches and you wouldn't be like, that's weird as fuck. Like now it's like, okay, everyone's doing like workplace yoga stretches. Like nothing, it's not that weird anymore. Bad circulation. Like there's a way to explain things. Yeah. It feels like

nowadays that wouldn't be as much of a like a point in the case. But back then it was like all the rage to talk about how weird she was in the interrogation room. I mean, she really just was doing yoga, but what do I know? This feels like something that should have existed for a long time. Nobody likes paying rent. Okay, I bet you don't either. But Built makes it feel a little better. Built is a loyalty program for renters that rewards you monthly with points and exclusive benefits in your neighborhood. Let Em explain. Hang on, let me crack my fingers. Oh, I actually cracked one. Wow, that was like really good. I'm sorry.

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I'm going to redeem mine for for food probably. A thousand percent. Not yoga or anything like that, you know. Join the loyalty program for renters at joinbilt.com slash drink. That's J-O-I-N-B-I-T dot com slash drink. Make sure to use our URL so they know we sent you. Okay, so next they ask about her relationship with Vincent. And like you said, she's just talking.

She's just feeding them the story, okay? So when they ask, like she was bound. to get herself in trouble here because they asked about her relationship with Vincent and she said it was difficult. It was turbulent. I know. It was emotionally uneven and she was unhappy. And, you know, they've got this plug thing in the back of their mind, right?

Because they haven't like found, they haven't like looked up what this thing is yet really. So, so they're not even, I don't think they even understand that this is not like the Acme plug we talked about. Um, could they have checked in those 11 hours? Yeah, probably. But whatever. So they're like, really, you are unhappy. Oh my gosh, but you're such a beautiful girl.

Like, tell me more, you know, just like the gross, just the gross behavior. She said she felt trapped. And she said she struggled to confront people directly. She didn't know how to end her engagement, even though she was emotionally checked out. And they're like, ding, ding, ding, we've got you. She said. By the way, that makes me feel. unless she's really

I feel like this makes me feel like she's innocent because if she was trying to get away with it there's no way she'd be saying this stuff. That's the other thing. I'm like, but would a person, unless you really are like totally beyond like any sort of social norms but like posting cigar photos and shots

taking shots on the internet is also not something you would do if you're trying to get away with it either. Sure. No, like but like to your point like I don't think any of this behavior is like what you would do if you were guilty. I mean, I don't know, like, what, what anyone would do, okay, but, like... But you would try to keep it together and look, like, really, like, under insane duress.

Yeah, I don't think he would be, like, spilling all your secrets if you were guilty. But, like, I guess people argue that she just... Didn't know. Didn't know, didn't care. You know, I'm not really sure, but that is a good point because she is just, like, spilling it. And, I mean, to be fair, the way he presents it is not, like, we're looking at you as the cause of this. Like, she doesn't even clock that yet. he's basically just saying like this is a therapy session and you can just let it like vent you know

and she someone made a good point too of like she didn't have anyone else to vent to and she's been like like you said grieving or attempting to for days and it's like this is the first person who's like just tell me what's going on what are you feeling and she's like here you go and it all went to shit because of that or she did do it and I could be wrong you know what I mean uh okay so she said Vincent loved her more than she loved him. She said that imbalance really weighed on her conscience. She felt overwhelmed by his expectations, his attention. She even expressed some very upsetting things about, like, rape, you know, and, like, pressuring her to do things sexually that she did not want to do.

And when asked if in the documentary, I don't know that she necessarily alluded to this. so specifically in the interrogation, but in the documentary later when they're just talking to her in more recent years, they asked if he had assaulted her and she said yes. So all that to say, she's like spelling our guts here about how uneven she felt unsteady in the relationship, how she was checked out emotionally. She didn't know how to get out of it. Just all really bad. All red flags, or at least what investigators are calling red flags. They also found, I will say,

a lot of sex paraphernalia in the house to back up her claims. Like a lot of like bondage stuff. And that's what she had said is like, I'm not comfortable with doing these things. But like, he wants me to. And so, you know, they did find stuff at the house to back that claim up.

And of course now they're goading her on, right? They're like, okay, spill it, you know. And they finally get to the event of Vincent actually drowning. And when they discuss Vincent going into the water, they're like, but wasn't that, wasn't part of you relieved? Weren't you like a little bit relieved? And essentially she admits like, yeah, it felt good. Like part of it felt good. I know. Poor thing. And so police were like, well, that's not a good look. She said, she says now that statement was taken way out of context. But at the time, investigators were like, she admitted it, you know?

It felt good. She admitted it. She killed him. They still couldn't get what they wanted, though, which was for her to say outright, like, I took the plug out to kill him. They wanted her to say it so badly. Like, you can tell. They're literally saying, like, just tell us you to. And she's like, no, I did not do that.

In the video playback, you can see she never says she takes the plug out to kill him. but they're now trying to get her to say that she subconsciously took the plug out. What? Because she subconsciously wanted him to die. Part of her just wanted this and even she didn't know. Exactly. What a fuck-ass excuse. They're going to,

they think that holds up in court. That's what they're saying. That's what they're literally saying. And so she says, she, she, she like, pauses and he's like, just say it. What do you have to say? And she says, well, it's psychological. I'm just trying to understand. myself like how and why I would do that like they're literally telling her like this is what

happened so she's even saying trying to understand she's even saying that doesn't fly like I'm no she's like I don't think so like that would be silly no I don't want that we're talking like 10 hours in at this point okay she's losing it I don't and poor her and she says well it's psychological I'm just trying to understand myself like how and why would do that I didn't want anybody hurt I never would want anybody hurt and then he says so why do you feel guilt and she says because of that thought I had that I wanted to be free that I wanted him to be gone so I felt guilty about that which is fucking normal I mean which I feel like is pretty valid like unfortunately if I were unhappy in my relationship and then she died I would be like well you know

you'd be like few thank god no I'd be like I'm really I feel guilty because a part of me wished for a way out and this right because you feel almost and then if you remember like oh shit I knew that like that one plug was out which like by the way spoiler alert they like prove that that has enough it that was a very they said like a negligible of course the thing for cause of death like that we'll get there um so yeah he's basically trying to get her to admit that she subconsciously did this it's just like a stretch you know talk about stretch so the interrogation drags on for hours but she never directly admitted to killing Vincent and when it was insinuated that she at one point they were like well when you watched him drown

and she shouted no I didn't watch him drown I tried to do something about it yeah they're just she's like now being like wait a minute they're like misunderstanding all of this you know um unfortunately too little too late 10 hours of information in she's like and and now I have to recover with my language barrier while I like also very aware that I my my my my my my life is dead and now I'm like like, wait, I'm a suspect here? Like, the panic. Also, like, they're, like, manipulating her being like, you're pretty and, like, who would want to hurt?

And it's just, like, gross. It's gross. It's gross. I know that this is, like, part of the job or whatever, but I don't like it. I don't like it at all. So the 11 hours of interrogation gives context to this yoga stretching and all that. I mean, we talked about that. I don't find that weird.

She also now claims, like, she said, well, I was also on my period. And so I was uncomfortable. They weren't. They were. like limiting my interaction with people, my bathroom use. Like it was just, they were making her uncomfortable again, which I know is part of the job. She was not under arrest at this point, okay? Her defense would later argue that the interviews were coercive because she was exhausted.

Her words were taken out of context. And they also argued that some of this stuff shouldn't even be admissible because she hadn't been Mirandized. But whatever you believe, she clearly did not have an understanding of like, where this was going at first. And she did not understand that she needed a lawyer and could call for one. So from the police perspective, they were homing in on their target. They were like, oh, my God, she's finally admitting what she did.

They later testified that Angelica's admissions about the drain plug and her comments about Vincent's death were what led them to believe that this was not an accident. It's like, okay. So suddenly this is a homicide case. and DeCorto's partner barges into the interrogation room at one point and is like, there's a gun missing from your house. So apparently Vincent had had two weapons in the house, two guns. And one of them, when they searched the home, one of the guns was missing.

So they go to her and they're like, where's that gun? And she's like, I don't know. And also, what is it a fucking matter? He didn't die by gun. What is a fucking matter? Well, they said, did you shoot him? Oh my God. And they haven't found his body.

I'm pissed the fuck off. Do you have the gun? Where is it? Is that how you killed him? You shot him? And she was like, no. And I imagine that at this point, she's like losing it. They're pushing her.

They're pushing her. They're saying, you killed him. You killed him. Just admit it. These are direct quotes. And she said, you want your fucking statement. And they're like, just say it. Just tell us what we already know.

and she says, I wanted him dead and now he's gone and I'm okay with that. And it's basically like, is that what she wanted me to say kind of thing, you know. Well, that's classic, just saying exactly what they want to hear and now you can't back out of that. They arrest her, of course. Not long after this, they find the body. And lo and behold, as you expected, there was no gun shot. The gun had nothing to do with it. So once I feel like you tell a story and I'm like, I love that you did the research, but you don't even have to keep going.

I'm pissed off. Okay, there's no sign of foul play. No bullet wound, nothing like that. But the coroner's report, I'm no expert. It's fucking wacko. Okay, listen to this. The coroner's report is marked as homicide. And remember, corners work closely with police and law enforcement and all that.

It's marked as homicide and the cause of death is, and I quote, kayak drain plug intentionally removed by other. Wow, so just straight up the runner under the bus. literally saying someone pulled a drill, which like again, they're not even looking at what this thing is. It's like this big and it's like on top of the kayak. It's not what everyone thinks it is.

But the fact that the corner was like, yep, that's the murder weapon. It's a kayak with a little hole in it and she, it's just, what are you talking about? That clearly, first of all, that corner, I pray to God is fired.

Like, is there, is there, probably not. How do you even, so I'm assuming spoiler alert, we find out that that had nothing to do with it since it is what you've already said.

So then he, did this corner even fucking investigate? Did this corner just get a fucking $5 bill from his cop friend? And he's like, oh, yep, we figured that one out. Slammed dog. Well, no, because I'm sure they wanted to find a bullet wound, you know? I'm sure they wanted to say she shot him. And so they were probably

hoping he would find a sign. But they said they looked inside and out. They looked all over this poor man and he had not been shot. So that's just nuts to me that you could say that the cause of death is quote kayak drain plug intentionally

how do you know it's intentional like none of that makes sense anyway it's just maddening it's just wild so the defense gets of course a kayak expert to testify right this guy's name is Todd Wright they basically he basically points out that when police did testing

because they did test where when they finally figured out what this drain plug thing was it's a small hole on top of and you don't want it to be missing, to be fair. Like you, because water will get in there, but typically water comes like from the side into the cabin. I have no idea.

Wow. Question mark. Mechanic over here. Oh yeah. You know me. Mechanic Christine. So Todd was like when the police did this, they were like clearly you could watch the,

he was watching the footage. She's like, you could clearly see they're trying to splash water into the fucking hole to get the boat to fill up. Like they're like, forcefully he's like this is not how a person would kayak he didn't say that it's not how she did it and it's not how no he did it come even if she wanted to kill him and that was how wouldn't he be like what are you doing this is stupid well he was in his own kayak so it's like he was the only one controlling his kayak so it's like there's no way it's just a strange thing to it's just strange um so this todd guy says no this this tiny hole

oh oh the police also i forgot about this part had um like motor boats like power boats going by really fast to try and create wake to splash into the hole to fill the boat and it's like if you have to have like motor boats driving around in circles around you to try and get enough wave action yeah it's just silly it's just silly at this point they're not actually investigating they're forcing a narrative yes exactly and it's like they're clinging to it yeah like let the fuck go You know, as far as I'm concerned, again, I don't, I don't quite know what's going on. But the water was 44.5 degrees. He has what is apparently a pretty lame quality pond kayak, not really suitable for like the Hudson.

He had no wetsuit. Not only that, he had no life jacket. He'd had several beers. In his cooler, they'd found several empty Mike's harder lemonade's in there. his blood alcohol was around 0.066, which is legally impaired in New York State, but not like trashed. But still, you know, the weather picks up. He's not wearing a life vest. One thing goes wrong.

He's in the water. It's 44 degrees in there. I don't know. I just, I don't find it that shocking of a scenario. Me either. And I don't see how Angelica could have plotted that. unless she literally physically pushed him over, you know what I mean? Or did something like really aggressive or assertive.

But it seems like the claim that she just had removed a plug on the top and that's what killed him, like there's no way that would have. That's a room plan. And it wouldn't have worked. You know, it's just weird. Anyway, so before the case was said to go to trial, Angelica took a plea deal and she agreed to plead guilty to the lesser felony charge of criminally negligent homicide. She basically admitted that she should have perceived the risks associated with the situation,

but claims to this day that she had never wanted Vincent dead, had nothing to do with his death, was not intentional, but she was sentenced to four years, which is the maximum sentence for that charge. And Vincent's family still blames her to, to this day. What? Oh, well, they never liked her anyway,

so don't worry about it. It's a whole thing. Stupid. Okay. I just, I mean, I can understand like, okay,

you feel like she should have done something, said something, but it's like, he's 42 or seven or whatever. Like, he's old enough to know not to go in the water without a life jacket.

And like, the plug had nothing to, like, I mean, it didn't have nothing to do with it, maybe, but it, didn't cause the situation.

No. You know, but she got four years. Wow. And what strikes me honestly about this case is that she was so fundamentally misunderstanding of how, of what was happening, like in the interrogation room,

from cultural differences, like whether she was naive, she had no clue she could just leave. She even said, like, the thought never crossed her mind that she could leave. Oh, sure. She came from an area where I guess the police are on your side. so why would you not work with them? Or at least on her side, right, exactly.

And she said, I thought that by speaking and telling them everything that I knew that I would just clear it up, I wouldn't need a lawyer, and I would be free. But boy, was I naive. She was released from prison on December 21st, 2017, after serving about 16 months and understandably lives a quiet life and maintains that she never wanted Vincent dead. And you can clearly tell where I fall in this case, but it took me like several episodes to, because you hear like, a drain plug was pulled out and she knew about it and you're like, well, that sounds suspicious, you know? Like, it does.

It sounds fucking suss. Yeah, it does. I am exactly where you are, Christine. I am on board with you. That's crazy. It just felt like this was a tragic accident in my opinion, but. 100%. Anyway, thanks everyone for listening.

That was a long one. My bad. I keep doing that. No, that was, I appreciated it. I liked it. And yeah, if you have any suggestions or any stories to send in for next listener episode, you can go to our website. That's also where we list all the episodes and their numbers and their transcripts on there you can search through. So that's really handy.

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fill out our MySpace questionnaires. Next week we should discuss the politics of the top eight, because that was its own, like, social hierarchy situation. Do not dirty talk to me like that, because I would love to. And I would love to. All right, great. Well, we've got a plan. And noted.

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