And That's Why We Drink - E488 The Esophagus Woes and a Hatchet Granny

Episode Date: June 28, 2026

It’s Episode 488 and no one is appreciating Chattanooga Choo Choo like we are. Today Em covers the haunted Hotel Holly in Michigan and its ghost dog named Leona! Then Christine covers serial killer Gerard Schaefer which has us communally sighing in frustration. And will we ever be able to make MacGALver happen? …and that’s why we drink!**One quick note! Next week there will be no main episode on Sunday 7/5 but we will return again on 7/12/2026!**Want to listen ad-free? Join our Certified Yapper tier for $10/month on Patreon! Ad-free episodes starting at E469 at: http://patreon.com/ATWWDPodcast !Catch our bonus Yappy Hour intermissions on Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3L28lDw or subscribe on Patreon!___________________Get $10 off your first month's subscription and free shipping at https://nutrafol.com with promo code DRINK.Get 50% off your first box plus free shipping for a year at https://tryfirstleaf.com/DRINK .Go to https://zenni.com/podcast and use code PODCAST15 for 15% off your first order.Try ZipRecruiter for free at https://ziprecruiter.com/drink to find enthusiastic, qualified candidates fast.If you think you or someone you know might be struggling with OCD, go to https://learn.nocd.com/ATTWD and book a free call with their team to learn more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, this is Marcy. And this is Betsy. And we're from a funny feeling podcast. We're comedians and paranormal enthusiasts who love getting scared. Each week on our podcast, we read and listen to stories from you, the audience, and we have our funny friends come on and tell us their paranormal experiences. Yeah, previous guests include Nicole Byer. Darcy Cardin.

Aubrey Plaza. Brian Safi. Mike Mitchell. Jim Harold, the goat. And Am and Christine from, and that's why we drink, dudes. So come on over and listen to us. We're talking about ghosts, UFOs, Bigfoot, cryptids. Ouija boards falling from the sky.

Anything and everything. You gotta check it out. Not to brag, but we have over 400 episodes. so come check us out over at a funny feeling. Don't. Your pants. Coming to you from Spectrevision Radio. Spectrevision Radio.

If you're listening to this right now, you know the world is full of encounters with the unexplained. It was just a shadow of a man standing at the edge of my bed. True terrifying tales submitted by listeners like you. The next thing I know, there were two long metal rods coming at my head. Large triangle shaped something. It was so freaky. It looked like it was coming closer, like out of the forest.

I thought to myself, what on earth? I do remember that bright light. It looked at least seven, eight feet tall. This thing staring at me. I remember thinking to myself, what the hell is going on? This thing was blacker than black. We're chanting halfway through. It had stood up on its high legs and walked the rest of the way.

So join us on the belief whole podcast as we shine a light into the dark and explore the bizarre phenomena behind some of the strangest encounters you've never heard. So I've recently been making some adjustments to my medications underneath the supervision of a professional, medical professional. But I will say that I've noticed some more of my. OCD tendencies kind of rearing their heads, but I do feel much more equipped now to handle them because of no CD and because of our longstanding special friendship, as I call it. I just love the app. I love no CD. I just love that there are other people who like get me now and it feels

like I'm not alone in the world. I just love it. Okay. So that's all I'm going to say. I'm going to stop talking now. Well, not every therapist understands OCD or is qualified to treat it effectively, which can make it difficult to find the right help. But when you find the right help like Christine, then you have a very special friendship. And OCD is highly treatable with a specialized type of therapy called ERP or exposure and response prevention. And with no CD you can do live virtual ERP therapy with licensed therapists who specialize in OCD. No CD therapists are highly trained.

So they really understand OCD and won't judge you no matter what your thoughts are about. No CD therapy is covered by insurance for over 155 million Americans. So unfortunately for you, Christine, you're not their only special friend. Do you know what I do? I want to be, I want this to be the more the merrier, the most open relationship. We can all have because OCD deserves to be talked about people. Okay, don't hide. If you think you or someone you know might be struggling with OCD, please don't wait to get help.

Go to nocd.com and book a free call with their team to learn more. That's NOCD.com to schedule a free call and learn more. Did you ever have a class where you had to, because I know we both went to very, oh, hi. Did you ever go to class in eighth grade where you had to learn about music theory, but really it was just this man who had a piano and he would play like, like, um, um, um, seeing my sweetheart at the train tracks, you know, that kind of music. I had that guy. I had that exact man in my class. Really? Because mine was named Brut. Oh, I thought, I thought we were really on the same page. I didn't have the, hello my honey, hello my darling. That was the one. So I actually, I actually, I actually faked a sinus infection to quit band.

Okay. And then I ended up in music appreciation, it was called. And we had to sing songs like, like, hey, good looking, what you got cooking, you know. I feel like there was somebody else I knew who took a music appreciation class, but like in college, and it was clearly like a one credit just filler class. And I think it was similar where it's like you just kind of got together and sang songs. Yeah, it was. Did you like it? No, I hated it.

And I got like a D. How do you get a D in appreciating something? I thank you for asking because I didn't appreciate that Shana would bring in John Mayer as our weekly CD. And I was like, I don't like John Mayer. And then we had to give like a speech as part of this class to debate something. And Brian so and so, not going to give away his whole name, did a speech about stem cell research. And I was like, what the fuck does an eighth grader know about stem cell research? And so then I put a complaint in and to nobody in particular.

I was going to say, well, the Karen of the eighth grade really showed up. Yeah. Well, I was not the carrot. Well, I was the care. I, you know what? Fine. I see where you were, you had good reasoning. I'll say, God knows your heart.

I mean, listen, I was in Catholic school and they were teaching me that stem cells were like murder. And I'm like, you know, I'm going, these people are dumber than rocks. How am I supposed to be listening to what they know about? like what the fuck does Ryan know about fucking stem cells give me a break. I think you're just ahead of your time

because as an adult I'm with you but as a kid I would have been like why on earth do we care enough? But I, because then I had to give a speech and I was like, sorry I don't think that God is like going to put scientists in hell

or whatever the fuck you guys are saying. That would be a D. That's fucking crazy. Also, my brother would tell you that that is not what happened. But that is in my opinion. hear his side. Thank you. And we won't be hearing his side. I didn't ask to.

Or ever. Thank you. I won't be texting. I'm asking for it. So I, uh, what would have been the real power move is if you decided to go up there with your speech and then rip it in half and go, I'd actually rather take this time and debunk all the shit that you just said. That'd been crazy. You know what? If I had any sort of self-esteem, I'd meet. If only we could dream. And do you think I actually ever put in a complaint note? What I did was I went home. You put it a complaint into your own diary. Is that what you're fucking saying to me? Here's what I did.

I thought you, I fully believed what was happening here. Okay. I think it's, I fear it might be worse than what you imagine. Because what happened in reality is I went home and I would tell my mother these things. And my mother, beautiful Leo spirit with some really unchecked, um, uh, dysregulation. No offense mom.

But we're in Qigong together so I can say that now confidently. Um, and so I would come home and I would tell her, you know, know, oh, bro. I'm making up a name, told me, and by the way, my mom was pregnant and was having a baby and was saving the stem cell. So this is a particular specific instance. You found the exact who could be most triggered by this conversation person. Literally.

And I said, Mommy, guess what happened? Mommy, they're so mean at school. And, oh, did she come in hot? And, like, was it about me? No, because, of course, my mother was very triggered and dysregulated and very pregnant. And she came in. And basically, I got in some extreme trouble, but not only for that, for almost everything I brought home to my mother. And then she would like turn around with a megaphone and scream it at the whole school.

Like, you know, your students are calling my daughter a pilgrim because she wears orthopedic shoes with buckles on them. And I'm like, why did you scream that into the PA system? Like now everyone is going, you know, like you made it worse, mother. Is that the version that Zandi would say is accurate? Even he would say, wow, you're just blowing everything out of proportion. And to that, I say, well, maybe I have some wounds about visibility. Stem cells are important to fight for. I'm on your side.

Thank you. And like, again, like, give me a fucking break. Anyway, how are you doing? Well, please, we're going to go backwards. What was your speech about, your own speech? Oh. What was your D about? Oh, the D was because we had to take a,

test that was like 80% of our grade and it was just all about these dumb songs about the like from like the 1910s do you remember any of the songs from the 1910s yeah uh well apparently not as well as I was supposed to um but I'm trying to think of like I feel like there's so many I mean one of them was like hey good looking so it's whatever time period that was what you got cooking how's how's about cooking something up with me I don't know simply cannot from the 1910s. If it is, that blows my mind. Okay, well, it's from, um, sorry, 1951. Okay, well, it was music appreciation and I didn't fucking appreciate it. Are you happy now? Apparently not. I, uh, that's- I lowered my Zoloft this week, unrelated. Okay. It doesn't totally show, um, but-

my therapist got mad at me and I said, don't worry, I will consult with a medical professional. And then I did. And now we're okay. Thank you. I, uh, Sorry Hank Williams. Sorry, Hank. R-I-P, I guess. I assume he's dead. I would have given anything to watch you in this music appreciation class. And then my mom comes in and goes, you gave my daughter a D.

And they're like, what proof do you have that we should give her anything else? And she's like, I don't know. Like Hank Williams. That's crazy. I don't know. Well, so here's the thing. Renee got the like superlative of like, oh, Renee's going to be a star. And then I got the like, oh, Christine's going to be her backup.

And so then I got a big complex about that. But that was how we were sort of pitched to our parents, which was very weird. Interesting. And also this other girl started calling Renee a concubine from France. And so then. I feel like something Renee would call it a person. I know. And Renee was like, do you think I'm offended by that or what?

Yeah. I feel like Renee's like I've heard worse. Like. Yeah. No, for real. Exactly. I don't know where I was going with that, except I clearly didn't pay any attention to the drifting cowboys, which, hang on a second.

That sounds like something you would absolutely pay attention to. Maybe Bruce. Clutching your pearls. Was onto something. Maybe I fake that sinus infection and quit trumpet class for a reason. And I'm only now finding. Uh-huh. A new love?

Maybe this is, it's meant to be recircled. Look at that fucking hat. What am I supposed to do? Say no. I don't know what I would do. I just don't know. I need help. Okay.

Did you ever do a public speaking class? I did. What was your speech? I literally dissociated the entire year. What did you do? We had, it was in college. I don't remember. I don't remember a gen ed random class.

And I remember a random girl from my high school was also in that class and she was mean to me in high school. And then I saw her in college and I thought, oh, maybe things have changed. No, she was still not very nice. Oh, wow. But they made us do three different speeches. One of them was like a one minute one, like a three minute one, and then a five minute one for you like practice like length, I guess. One of them I did how to play beer pong. And then as a non-drinking person, which is amazing.

Because you really have a sober perspective. You're like the referee who's like, I'm not playing the game. I'm like observing the game. Yeah. I know exactly how this. fucking good. Fantastic. Another one was I worked at Chipotle, so I think I just told everyone exactly how to make the corn. I mean, that has to be an A. Maybe, maybe to people who really like the corn there, but the teacher did not seem impressed that I was giving him factory secrets.

That's what I mean, M, is like, the teachers are like, no, that's not appreciation. I'm like, I fucking hate John Mayer. Sorry, that's my appreciation for today. But it's not good enough. And you know what? Not liking all musicians is appreciation. Thank you. Can you about it. Because if you said, I like all of them. You don't give a fuck thing. That's fucking insane. You have no ounce of critical analysis for yourself. Even if it's wrong compared to everybody else. If everyone is your friend, no one's your fucking friend. Damn. Not even Hank Williams. And you know what? Or Hank Green. And you would say that in front of John Mayer, I bet. It's like it's, don't take it personally, John. It's just there has to be someone I like and there has to be someone I don't like. And

unfortunately, you fell into the other category. You skeeve me out. What am I going to do about it? Sorry about it. Sorry about it. Is that why you drink? Do you drink? What do you drink? You don't drink. What do you drink? What do you drink?

Help. I'm drinking a morning jolt. Okay. Well, you've heard about these before. Does it seem that I need that? I did take my ADHD medication. It doesn't seem like it, but I did. And I did take coffee.

That. Okay. Excellent. Remember last time when you perfectly matched that cup and straw? That was crazy. I walked upstairs with the bag and I thought something happened with a straw and I don't remember. And maybe if I pulled the straw out today, I'll remember. And I pulled out a blue straw and I went, I have absolutely no fucking clue.

But so thank you for reminding you. Thank you. You were oddly in sync. Oh, my NPR shirt. Oh, fuck. You're right. I got to get that back. Your little gay cutoff.

Yeah. My gay shirt. Well, this is pretty gay too. I mean, yeah. I think if someone who's like any percentage gay is wearing a shirt, that makes it a gay shirt, right? You're right. You're right. And that's really a beautiful perspective.

I think that's why I got a G. I think he was just homophobic. I think he smelled it on you and he went, that's not right. Well, he had a gigantic. What now? Every way that I was going to finish that sentence was not going to sound good. Like it doesn't mean like inappropriate necessarily, but just on any level that I was thinking of ending that sentence, nothing landed in a very correct way.

You certainly locked me in with curiosity. I was like, how could it go? I locked you in and then I left. and I said, I can't fill in the blank anymore. I think if you had the ability to have just walked out of the room when you would have just done that. He had a huge. He one time broke the piano. He jumped on top of it. He didn't. He was a, okay. Jack, do you magic. It's me. Uh, my higher herself came back and said, what the fuck is going on in here? Christine, get it together. And she says, Bruce was a fine man and you had some serious issues at home. And that's not his fault. And you know what? It's okay. You quit trumpet class. And now you know about the drifting

cowboys. And they can sing, hey, good looking to you any time a day, day or night. And without looking, what year? Did they start singing that? 1951. Yep. Good job. Is that right? That's right. See, Bruce. Yeah. And now we appreciate them a lot more than he ever could have taught us. That's exactly right. What you're drinking? Just kind of this and that.

Like, I have a drink, but it's a little old. I should have drank yesterday. I did. I did hear the sound of the water of the liquid of the water down. The slurping of me trying to get through like the layer that was once ice. Ugh. And also, I got to be honest. Now I'm getting some heartburn situations happening over here.

So like I don't really know this is my favorite drink. You know, it's interesting you lean back as you had the heartburn. And I saw almost what appeared to be smoke rings on your shirt. And I was already about to compliment the shirt. What's happening here? It's a little tugboat. It's a little tugboat. Oh, it's a tugboat.

Yeah. But it's actually, it is high. It's, well, I thought it was going to be a hookah situation like the caterpillar. But now I'm seeing it's more tugboat. Yeah. Okay. High tide. Oh, I'm into that.

High tide. I'm into that tugboat. When we were in New Hampshire last, so I got the shirt. I don't understand the reference. Maybe the store was just called High Tide, but the tide I really spoke to me. And I was like, I don't really care. Yeah. Really good.

Really good. I was like, and then I got to be honest, I didn't even know. I didn't even really look at the design until I got home. And I was like, oh, it's a stoned boat. I was like, I should have looked. Yes. Correct. That's perfect.

Anyway, I know, this part up here is really. me going. Even the rings, like the little smoke rings. I'm like, oh, that's kind of intriguing. Yeah, because it's like inverted tie-dye on the tie-eye or something. Yeah, but I'm sorry to hear that it's illustrating your acid reflux. Yeah, I'm not, today is just like an interesting day with my, um, my esophagus. So yeah, you know, some days it just wants to act up. She's, she's got a mind of her own. It's, you know, whatever. Um, I, why do I drink this week? Ugh. Alson threw her back out. And like, this is the big one.

This was the big one. Shut up. And so I've been there and it fucking blows. Oh, no. Remember, I did it in front of you. That's when I threw my back out the worst. That was when I literally sprained my spine. I will literally never forget the image of you bet, like literally tabletop and like hobbling to your car away from my house.

And I was like, I can't help you. Like, I went and opened the car door, but I was like, you're literally like, stuck. I don't even know if we were, like, if we knew each other that well yet. I feel like it was really early on. We were doing the podcast, but I had just moved. So we were like a year into the podcast, I guess. Because I remember feeling like embarrassed that I was like lying on your couch and pain.

Well, no, I think I was having a party. And so like, you came over and like immediately injured yourself and laid down. And we were like, we'll stay there. And you were like, I'm actually in need of medical intervention. I had never. I never felt pain like that in my life. And it was because I bent down to give a dog a treat. That was.

Yeah, yeah. I'm sure there's an episode where we spoke endlessly. But I would love to go back and listen because I'm sure we, I'm sure I described it in riveting drunk detail at the time. Well, it was, it was so out of control. I was like, I've never, I hope to never feel back pain like this again. And Allison's currently going through that. It debilitates you. I mean, to your whole, obviously, like your whole being.

So I don't really get to make this the reason why I drink. It's more the reason why Allison would drink. But the reason I drink is because I've been picking up a lot of extra slack. It's just been a lot of like up and down and grabbing things. So I'm just a little extra sleep because like I've been having to get up earlier. Like Hank had a vet appointment yesterday. So I had to wake up at like 8 a.m. just to go bring him there. But then I thought, oh, I'll come back and I'll relax a little bit.

But it was yesterday every single hour I had a thing I had to be at or I had to be like, Oh, God, my nightmare. I was just running around a lot. It's like I wasn't really doing, like I wasn't, I don't know. It just felt like a lot to me based on what I had prepared for the day. And then I realized, oh, I'm going to have to like really like double up today. And you're like running on empty. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, it's just like a silly little thing that I was, it was just a long day yesterday. And then I didn't get to go to sleep as early as I would have liked to. So I drink because I'm sleepy. That's. I get that. that man last night leona woke up with some weird we think she has like a it was like one in the

morning and blaze and i were like both like jolted awake she's like does this coughing like this whooping cough sound but it's not like whooping cough because she's like four now and it'll happen when she gets stressed and then her vocal cords will like kind of close up and so she'll start freaking out and it'll like make it worse but it's like this wheezing and she has trouble getting a breast so it sounds kind of like asthma. Anyway, so that happened last night. And then I slept in the- Does she have asthma or like could she?

And we just don't know it. I don't know. We're going to take her to the doctor and see what it is. But it seems to be almost more of like any irritation when she coughs or gets dry, a dry throat, which I don't know. I don't know much about asthma to be honest with you. But Blase thinks is something with the vocal cords. But yeah, so I slept in a chair in her room last night.

But the chair does go back really far. And it's super cozy. So I'm not complaining. Oh, okay. No, I mean, not an ad, but they are. sponsor my Lola blanket that I keep in there for those purposes. So I slept actually quite well considering. But yeah, I'm sorry about Al's back. Fun fact, I did get my Reiki Level 2 certification yesterday. So I'm allowed to practice. Thank you. I'm allowed to like fully practice now on on others.

So if she ever wants some distance healing. Yeah. Actually, I couldn't have gotten in a better perfect timing. All of a sudden everyone's falling apart. I'm like, I'm ready. Speaking of Leona, did you hear that there's another Leona in my life now? I saw the post. And I went, well, I better hear about this news because I've, I've never seen a cuter baby in my whole life. Not even Leona number one. I know. I mean, really, that's the cutest little baby I ever did see. Yeah, so another reason why we drink this week is because RJ is a daddy now.

Mazel to. And he also has a Leona now. I can't believe it. I thought my eyes deceived me. Another Leona in your life. They're calling her LJ for RJ. LJ is very cute. LJ is very cute.

I mean, you know, when I named Leona, I was like, how many fun nicknames? Leo? And then, no, no, just Leona. So I, it seems they, because I think your pitch was like, oh, Leona, we're going to call her. Like, he just immediately literally just started texting me being like LJ, LJ, LJ, LJ, or Leo, Leo. That's the thing. You have to really decide. You got to decide for them.

And I was like, I'm not going to decide for her. But, and there's also a Leo in her class. So it's like, you know, it's too confusing. Unfortunately for you, Leo, which is an incredible name, is like the new Kyle or like. I know. It's like the new Kyle or whatever. You know what? Like I'm not like in, it's like every class is going to have one. Oh, I know. It's a very common name now, especially for boys. Yeah. So it's. So Leona's maybe that is that, is, did they have a connection to it? Did they, did they just like the name? Do we know? They didn't tell. They picked out the name really early into the pregnancy, but didn't tell anybody the name. Oh, it's so good. Not. not that I'm biased. I had a hunch it would start with an L because every damn baby I've ever met in the last five years

starts with an L. Everyone's got an L baby. So I, but that was me making like a silly theory out of it. And then he said, Leona and I went, are you kidding me? I was like,

we've already got one of those. I mean, you literally could have been like, oh, the name's Leona. Oh, no, I'm just thinking of an existing baby with that name. Like, oh, no, that's actually it.

That's great. I don't know any. Well, there is actually one other Leona. I've met Leona's age. So yeah, here they come, the Leona's of the world.

I mean, if Leo's going to be big, every variation of Leo is going to be big too. That's right. True. Good point. Well, congratulations to them. I'm so happy. It's a cute baby. I've only seen a few pictures.

She does look very cute. What an angel, darling. Yeah. So that's about it. And it was, by the way, thank you to that little baby for holding on for like 48 hours or he would have shared the same birthday. What was the birthday? Okay, so I already did the big three.

Don't worry about it. Oh, great. Sorry, I'm telling your kids big three. Well, obviously the son is Gemini. The birthday was June 5th, so we've got a third, fourth, and fifth now, you and me. Shut up! And I was telling I have another friend. A Leona Gemini?

Hold on. I'm having like some feelings, some big feelings. Well, I have another friend who also had a baby in June, and I was like, it cannot be my birthday because otherwise you're not going to come to my birthday party because your kids got a birthday party. Now we've got to share the birthday party. And then there's going to be not enough juice boxes for you and all the children. It's going to be a tragedy.

That's what I'm saying. So now we get two birthday parties. That's what I wanted. I want two birthday parties. Now you get to celebrate me. I can celebrate them. Tiana's baby is also a June baby. Exciting.

This is so exciting. Is that an L baby too? That's the only one that isn't an L baby. Oh. Okay. So, little LJ for the masses. Yeah. Is Gemini's sun, Aquarius, Moon, Sagittarius.

rising. Oh, the baby's going to be a handful. I wrote, I wrote back to him and I said, she's going to be so hysterical. She's going to be a fucking riot. She's going to be the funniest little kid I've ever met. She's going to be a riot, dude. She's going to be a riot. And also, like, I'm not to be completely biased, but Leona, Gemini, Sun, same. Yes. Aquarius moon, same. Really? The only difference is I'm also in Aquarius Rising. But Saj is, is Gemini's opposite sign. Oh, sorry. Now we have to decide for which LJ we're talking about.

Sorry. What's your Lio this big three? She is a Libra sun. Libra rising. And a Leo moon, which is, you know, how. It is silly because it's fucking like in my face. And also the moon is like your mother, like kind of like a mother symbol. And like hers being Leo.

and I'm just like, you're, it's like, she needs me to like see her. And I'm like, girlfriend, I see you, babe. Don't worry. I see you so hard. I don't know. I mean, I just don't know about like where. And by the way, Leo, moon, sorry, I just kind of, I didn't even really realize that. But to have a Leo moon and I named her Leona without obviously knowing what her moon would be.

Anyway, that's kind of cute. I'm curious, like, the sun is the father sign, right? And the moon is the mother sign? Or is that how it works? Um, I don't know. I don't think, I think the sun's more just like your like life force, like how you present to the world. Because I feel like it's very interesting. First of all, the fact that like Libra is like like balanced and grounded and the fact that her son and her moon are both so grounded. Mm. And unless I'm wrong, but that sounds like she's going to be such a calm lady.

I know. Well, didn't you say she's Libra, Libra, Leo? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, I wish. But she's a very, she's very intense. And I think the Libra that comes out of her is like my brother. Like every like semantics are very important. Everything needs to be pretty much even. She won't forget a single thing you've said because if you said it, you know, that's your word and your word is like, she's like, I'm not going to fucking forget a single thing.

like, I'm like, easy, breezy, whatever, you know, things change. She's like, you said that and I'm going to make you stick to that. And I, you know, it's a little like intense. but I think she's going to be, but she's a charmer, you know, she's a social butterfly. That is true. That's true. Anyway, I didn't know that was her big three. I'm so excited for little Leona.

I know. Leona Gemini. I mean, this is crazy town. This is like, oh, how do I befriend a baby without being weird? I know. No, trust me. As someone who's, all my friends are having babies, I'm like, I'm going to get real close a bunch of babies. And you're going to have two like really wild Leona, like, too, like, loud leonas in your life, I imagine.

That's fine. I love that for you. I can be loud. Yeah. Yeah. They're just matching your energy. Don't worry. That's exactly right.

Okay. I know we've gone deep into the, the yapping these days, or at the beginning of this. So I'll jump right into my story. It does feel like it's been days that we've been talking. I know we've only got so much time to stay because you're running off to do some stuff. So I guess what I have to do? I have to do.

I have to lift weights with my strength trainer that I have now because I'm healthy. Are you a gym rat? What the fuck is going on? No. I just am like broken and I'm like somebody helped me fix my body. Cheong and now also this and also jiu-jitsu. And also and I do yoga in the mornings too. I'm it's called sobriety, I think is what's happening.

And also mental breakdown. It's giving like not as an insult, but like almond mom or something. It's like, oh, I've got my everyday scheduled with a different thing. No judgment. I'm just like, this is so not what I'm used to. But that's the fun thing about it is it's not taxing, like physically taxing. Like it's just all. very like chill.

Like it's like at jiu-jitsu it's like oh and I roll over like this and then I put my arm here and it's like you know and then at yoga obviously it's like very like centered and then at strength training she's teaching me like better breathing technique it's like better breathing and like pelvic floor issues and like very centered to like postpartum bodies and stuff like that so it's it's uh it's cool but it's very it kind of all just happen at once and then Reiki training. I don't know. Like, it's weird. It just kind of all happened at once. Wild. Not intentionally. I mean, you just, you're like, just like probably the most fit person I know these days. Oh, trust me. I'm not. Oh, you've seen the video of me doing Chee Gong with the flying pig, right?

You look great. You look great. I mean, thank you. But it's not necessarily, you know, like I'm not, um, making gains or whatever, you know, people say. I'm just kind of vibe in. Well, proud of you. Thank you. Oh, this old thing. Oh, this old. Are you talking about your hair? Uh-huh. I was going to say,

to all my thirsty little rats, I know sometimes I force you to take your meds, and it's really a reminder for me to take my meds. These days, I'm just going to add Nutrafol onto that because this dome is shining lately. My mother is the queen of reviewers of this. And she's got, like, gorgeous locks. So if that woman is trusting NutriFol,

I feel like we've all got to look up to her, you know. Thinning hair is much more common than I realized. And so it's really kind of exciting to see that other people are, you know, facing the same issues and handling them the same way, because it really does work. And I'm, I'm feeling better than ever. So thank you, Nutraful. Nutraful is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand. And it's the number one hair growth supplement brand personally used by dermatologists. I didn't know I was a dermatologist because it's also the one that I personally used. I said that too when I did with my brother. And he said, don't say you're a dermatologist, but it was too late. I'm cosplaying dermatology today, everybody.

and I'm demanding, I'm demanding that you follow me and all the other actual professional dermatologists. Medical professionals, yeah. Get on board because Nutrafol's hair growth supplements are peer-reviewed, NSF certified for sport and clinically tested. Let your hair be one less thing to worry about. See visibly thicker, stronger, faster-growing hair in three to six months with Nutifol. For a limited time, Nutraful is offering our listeners $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping when you visit NutraFol.com and enter promo code drink. That's NutraFol.com, spelled N-U-T-R-A-F-O-L dot com promo code drink.

This is a hotel. Ooh. The best part about hotel stories at this point is we can fly kind of right through them. We can just get to the ghost. And also I miss going to hotel. I haven't traveled to a hotel in a long time. And I'm like, I kind of miss like a hotel moment. Not I don't think I ever thought I would say that, but.

I miss a hotel. I miss a hotel. I don't miss traveling to the hotel, but I miss. No, I don't either. The moment I start thinking about it, I'm like, never mind. Well, this is the Holly Hotel in Holly, Michigan. I just love that name Holly. It's one of my favorite names. It's a good one. The Holly Hotel was opened in 1891. And like I said, we can kind of fly through this history.

Everyone can just repeat it with me that it was built to be a railroad in for people passing through from the nearby train. I love my baby. Bruce? No, there's one. Oh, Chattanooga, Choochoochoo. That's the, that's the fucking one I keep thinking about in the back of my mind. I don't know. It's like haunting me. Chattanooga Choochoochoo. is that I wonder if that has anything to do with like ears ringing I feel like there's some fucking is this a psychic message what's the chattanooga chuchoo-choo-does it have anything to do with like when you like how you say chattanooga it's sound like a train I mean it's a town in tennessee I know but like people say chattanooga chattanooga chattanooga chattanooga chattanooga and it's like a train oh I did not know I guess I had no idea Bruce didn't teach me that that's a cool fact

Yeah, Bruce should have fucking Chattanooga, Chattanooga, Chattanooga, Chattanooga, Chattanooga, Choo. Oh, that's the Glenn Miller Orchestra, which I have discussed was my MySpace artist for a while. The Glenn Miller Orchestra. Everything about you is different than what anyone else would say. That's because I'm in Aquarius Rising and Moon, and nobody can take that away from me. Well, eat your heart out, Bruce and all the music appreciators, because somewhere in this hotel, I'm sure, some Vod music was playing. I love it.

So it was a railroad in for people passing through from the nearby train line. It was like over 25, 30 trains coming in every day. So they needed somewhere to say. Okay. And per usual, because businessmen and politicians would be passing through. This hotel needed to be very, very elegant. And yet, it was also the hub for all the locals. I'm literally just like, I promise I like my job, but I'm over the storyline.

It was known mainly for its restaurant. I guess that was one of the ways they really got people to keep coming in. It's like, well, you got to try our food. But then by the 1940s, what song was playing in the 1940s? Oh, this one. Chad, a new go-choo-choo-1940. Perfect. It was all the rage.

So now everyone played that in their head. And the 1940s, cars and highways were becoming more common, so less people were taking the train. So there was no longer a need to like stay a night at a hotel in the middle as if it's a layover. And eventually they just stopped really trying to be as much of a hotel. and more of focusing on their restaurant. And then to keep entertainment coming in, they opened up a comedy club in there. So it was now a restaurant and comedy club.

Okay. But I also held high tea on Sundays or on everyday. Okay. So what I'm sensing here is that instead of like designing a program, they almost found the people who could offer their talents. So like a chef was like, I could make food. And like clearly his food was really good. And they were like, okay, we've got like a excellent restaurant.

And then someone was like, what was the other thing? Not before the high tea. Yeah, someone clearly had to be a comedian first to be like, well, we have some funny talent here. So I love that they're like bringing in the talent being like, how can we utilize this? Or maybe someone just kept coming to the restaurant was so funny. They were like, just get up there and keep talking. Just give them a mic. Yeah.

Yeah. So they started really focusing more on that. I mean, this was closer to like, you know, this was many decades in where eventually it's now just a restaurant at a comedy club. But that's probably basically eventually Prohibition kicked in. And while they couldn't serve alcohol, they started trying other things to keep the hotel afloat. And that's when they realized that entertainment was useful. And so then after Prohibition, they kept bringing in entertainment with the restaurant. And eventually it just became a comedy club.

Like, we don't booze. I guess we'll hire a stand-up comedian. People will love that. That's a terrible idea. But, okay. I guess it worked. So it was originally called the Hurst Hotel because it was built by a guy named John Hurst. It was later renamed the Alphen, nope, Allendorf, which is not even better than what I was going to say.

Allendorf, then Hotel Norton, and then it became the Holly Hotel. Best one, best one. For sure. And also, like, Holly is the name of the fucking town. Yeah, I mean, yeah, don't be ridiculous. That's going to work every time. Norton, get a grip. Get literally.

Hey. Hey. Here's a grip. Get it. I'll wait. Let me know when you go get it. Okay. One of the most notable pieces of history that happened in this hotel was in 1908, which was how many years in like 17 years into this hotel existing. In 1908, do you know the name Carrie Nation? I don't think, uh, maybe. Beautiful. Okay. So next to this hotel, there was a street called Battle Alley. And it was called Battle Alley because there were so many bar fights happening in that street. But they were like, oh, from the, from the Civil War. No, they're just bar fights. Okay.

Truly just from bar fights. And so because it was only this rowdy because of booze, this intrigued a group of pro temperance people. Of course it did. Who one of the people involved was Carrie Nation. Her middle initial is A. by the way. And so she later changed her name spelling from Carrie C-A-R-R-I-E to C-A-R-R-R-Y. So her name to be Carrie a nation. Don't be ridiculous. I mean, it's already carry a nation, which like let it be the cool thing. Don't like force it into something that it's already is. Like people are already making the joke for sure. So like you don't have to prove it. It's like you're saying you're going taking it one joke too far.

Yeah. Yeah. We're already on board. We see it. Yeah. Spelled the same. It sounds the same. So she, hopefully was not the comedian at the restaurant because she's not very fucking funny.

But according to Wikipedia, she's also known as Hatchet Granny. Oh, now we're talking. That's her drag name. I was going to say,

that's her on stage after hours name for sure. Cario nation, hatchet granny. When she's actually a drunk and she's pretending like she's really not, she's not part of the

temperance movement. It's exactly. Yeah. Don't tell them. Don't tell them. So she's in this pro temperance group. think she actually created or founded the protemporary group.

She's projecting. And her, basically what ended up happening is the way she got into all this is that her husband died of alcoholism, which led her to start like praying to God, being like, what should I do to get people to never have to deal with this again? And I guess Jesus told her to make everyone something.

Carry a nation. Okay. I mean, like it speaks, it writes itself. So she, so Mr. Nation dies. And then she's like, well, now I'm going to go, on all these protests to make sure that we just stop condoning drinking. Okay. I can understand the sentiment.

I do. I want to say that's a tragic, tragic story. We started in a good place or with good intentions. Yeah. She would go basically not, I wouldn't say door to door, but she would find the big bars in an area where, wherever alcohol was served. And then she would just walk in and just start smashing all those bottles and all those glasses. What? That was her fucking.

fucking, that's what Jesus. Like Jesus at the temple. Oh my God. Oh my God. So one of these places was Holly Hotel. Oh. And but she was this time she went with her like her group. Over time she kind of like created a posse.

Created a posse. Mm-hmm. There was a time where she created it. They fucking. She just fucking attracted it. I bet you. There were times that she kept vandalizing and vandalizing and vandalized that she eventually got like arrested for it and came back and then she like came up swinging even harder.

was like, now we're going to go to every bar. And so, whoa. Yeah. She's like, nothing left to lose, man. Yeah. And so when she got to Holly Hotel, this is a quote, but the group clubbed patrons with their umbrellas and Carrie broke whiskey bottles in the hotel bar with an axe, which is why she's hatchet granny. Okay. Now I'm loving this. I mean, I'm not loving it, but I'm also kind of like intrigued, you know? I respect any woman, especially in the early 1900s who was able to

protest at all. Who had, yeah, I mean, you got a, yeah, you got a, yeah, that's, that's a feat in and of itself. You're right. And you know what? I mean, the definition of a protest is to disrupt society and to go to their drinking holes and say, fuck you and smash all their booze. Woo.

That could have been good. I will say it's not really going to, I don't think it's going to work. I don't necessarily think the people there are, but maybe, maybe that's not the point. Maybe the point is you're making a name for yourself and that's, I don't know. The irony is that they probably thought she was hammered. I mean, maybe with with God's, with the Holy Spirit or something. Yes, drunk with God's love. Drunk on Holy Spirit.

Drunk on Jesus. So her efforts actually did later help Prohibition Pass. Yikes. So she was probably the most hated woman in the world to a few people. Wow. So she really did. Okay, I lied. I was like, oh, she's not really going to do anything with that.

But apparently she didn't. I don't know if she was directly involved. because I think by the time she passed away, Prohibition hadn't even happened yet, and it came later. But I think she was at least the first steps into, like, people showing that they were not for this. And she clearly, like, made a following or had a following. Yeah. Right. However, in the biggest FU way possible, a lot of bars, including Holly Hotel, they commemorate her protests there by now having, like, annual reenactments and, like, discounting their drinks at the bar. I thought you're going to say there's a cocktail named after her, which I'm sure there's plenty.

Oh, I'm sure there's something. Like with Holly. Oh my God. Doesn't it feel like the ultimate slap in the face? So like what's her name again? Oh, Carrie a nation. Carrier nation. I mean, you really could get a little crazy with that if you wanted to make a little

cocktail after her, which is kind of fucked up. I would hope it'd be a mock tail. At the very least, you could have a sign outside on the day, the anniversary and just like, carry a drink around. There you go. Open, open container. Open carry. Open carry.

Oh, open carry. holy shit that's good um don't let don't tell the nora about that because they're gonna take tan take that and run with that's an open carry i'm chill with open carry a nation um so anyway so basically the hotel would have like annual reenactments of like crazy like someone actually coming in like pretending to like be carry nation um they would have discounts on their drinks that day but they have like an annual event about the day that she came in similar bars i this is i'm just i looked her up very quickly because she's not supposed to be the main character of the story. But this story is pretty quick.

And so I was just trying to find a fun fact for us to deep dive into, and this is the one. So I did a quick Wikipedia search on her. I did not, like, go very deep into it. But other bars that she, like, vandalized also do this now. So, like, it's not just Holly Hotel, but there's a bar in Missouri that is called the broken hatchet brewery that I guess either she was once at or they named them after the story. This is the coolest thing I saw, was that the inventor of the pet rock, who made like millions.

He used those millions. His pet rock money went to opening a bar called the Kerry Nation Saloon. No. Yeah. Isn't that fun? What in the fuck? That is the weirdest fact I've ever heard. Because he'd be like, what the hell of the guy with the pet rock?

Like, how did he make that much money? One, two, what the hell did he do with that money? And he ended up making a saloon with the name of someone who would have hated it. He had a fucking vision. I guess he really had a plan. He said first I got to get people to like these goddamn rocks. Serious. Put a googly eye on this rock right now.

He doesn't got to do anything. It fucking, it's like he just channeled some divine fucking. He's like, here's a rock and everyone's like, I fucking love it. I mean, really his parents were probably like,

oh, my kid, like all he wants to do is grow up and open a bar, but where is he going to get the money? And he was sitting on a pile of rocks and he went, I've got an idea. I'm going to sell them. Fucking sell themselves.

Hotcakes. Fun fact, there is a segment about Carrie Nation. on drunk history. So, oh, that would be fun. It was, it's a quick little clip on, um, uh, on YouTube. You can just go watch it. It's like five minutes.

Um, but it was very interesting. And anyway, all that to say, we're at a hotel that was once a railroad and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Carrie Nation, that was one of her stops on her big like, I love that. Bar protest tour. And, um, once she had passed away, Prohibition took over and Prohibition became, obviously, it's really big thing. And the hotel needed a way to keep afloat. So one of the first ways that they had entertainment at the hotel to keep people coming in was, only one source said this, but apparently

they had a movie theater in there at some point. And they had an ice cream parlor in there at some point. But here's my favorite thing is that I've read enough of these histories about hotels and during Prohibition era at this point, a lot of them opened ice cream parlors and they were actually speakeasies. Wink, wink, wink. So I'm kind of wondering, did the Holly Hotel actually open an ice cream parlor or they just put a big parlor in front of their bar. Yeah. Did they put a big freezer in there and said it's for ice cream? You know, we really did start and that's where we drank with booze and ice cream not knowing that it was like actually such a key plot line for in Prohibition era. And we really don't talk about that very often. But yeah. No. But that really we like

if this was also a Prohibition Era podcast like that would have secretly actually been the perfect fucking. Oh my God. You're totally right. And we didn't even know it. Um, okay, so back to the hotel. The main tragedy that happened at this hotel was that it had suffered three separate fires. Um, one of them in 1913. Uh, and it was enough that the hotel was so destroyed, it had to be renovated. And it was kind of a blessing in disguise because during its renovations, they were

able to like add electricity and shit like that in there. But they also kind of changed some things design wise where it didn't look as what we would consider beautiful today. But then in 1978, literally on the six years. fifth anniversary of the first fire. All the way down, this is a quote, exactly the same time to the hour. What?

Same hour on the same day, 65 years apart. I think this one was faulty wiring. No. That damn electricity. Shouldn't have put the electricity in. But they, it ended up causing over half a million dollar in damages. So they had to re-re-do it.

It's starting to feel like the Bob's Burger's intro. Oh my God. Yes. He has another banner. Yeah. But another blessing in disguise is because fun fact, this second time around that they had to renovate after a fire, they used the original 1891 blueprints and got it back to looking exactly how it did in 1891.

Maybe that's what needed to happen. It was like, hey, actually, let's just start over. The first time was like, we're going to burn it down so you put some electricity in there. Then we're going to burn down again so you can get back to how it was looking. Yeah, yeah. We actually kind of didn't want you to go that far. you went a little too modern with the fixtures. Exactly.

So during this renovation or like two years after, it ended up joining the National Register of Historic Places. And then the third fire, the third and final one, was actually only four years ago. And the fire happened at a nearby building. It was like an arcade. I thought arcade like games, but I think it was like the name of like a mall,

like a strip mall. Oh, like a plaza or something. Yeah. Yeah. And it started in one day, building and then kind of swept through the whole series of shops and got to the hotel. And I guess the town knows that this hotel is caught in fire a lot. And so 18 different fire departments showed up to like put water out on this thing. They tried to handle it.

They were like not again. Yeah. There are like hundreds of firefighters show. In the aftermath of this fire, the owners ended up trying to rebuild. But then the owner of the So it did catch on fire again? Like so the actual hotel did. Oh no. And like. And like, Like got pretty messed up. Jesus. When they, and would see, I read an interview somewhere that said like the owners only lived like seven minutes away. And by the time they got there, it was like already just destroyed. That is so weird.

So they have this fire. They're going to rebuild it. But then the people who own the arcade that originally caught on fire, they end up getting in some sort of like legal dispute with that guy. because technically, now that it's 2022, property lines are different than they were in 1891. So if they're trying to keep the hotel as original as possible, it now is like crossing into like new property lines that the other guy technically owns. And so he was like, I don't want you on my property line. You can't rebuild in this area? And they're like, but then it wouldn't be authentic to the original.

Like, can you just like, I don't care? Yeah. I would have been like on their side, been like, can you just humorous? Like we're trying to like respect the history. I mean, if he wants to like have his problem. I mean, I don't know. It's not his fucking problem. Yeah, I don't, I don't know how it got so tricky so quickly, but it did.

And I guess it just became there was some rule. I didn't save this part. But in some statement that they put out, it was like as as long as we, if we keep our, if we, if we're honoring the original property lines, then like he has a reason to like keep our crews from. building the rest something happened where it just wasn't going to happen so with enough back and forth on this they decided like fuck it like we're just we just have to close and so as of 2024 the hotel has closed oh that's too bad okay it's um i don't know if it's sold since but it's been on sale at least as of 2024 for 900,000 um and the bones are still good of it but the it definitely needs like a facelift after the fire um but that's all the history so as

for ghosts. Oof, I bet there's plenty. Yeah. So, well, I don't even know if anyone died in the fires. I didn't see anything about that. Oh, yeah, I guess fires alone don't. But it sounds like somebody's trying to fucking burn this place down. I just feel like that.

Maybe. Maybe Carrie, maybe from the beyond. She's like, I'm not through with you. With a name like Carrie. I'm just saying. Carry a nation. Carry the universe. She basically, I mean, they must have known things were going on

paranormal here a long time ago because back in the 80s, they had investigators coming out. Oh, wow, in the 80s. Yeah, you don't hear that often. So in 1989, there was one guy who was pretty popular named Norman Gauthier. And you should do an episode on that guy. I feel like he'd be funny to talk about. I feel like he's like, there's something about this guy.

He reminds me of a chip coffee, you know? Yeah, I would actually know about this guy. I'd stick to your original phrasing and say he's funny because I'm like, what were you doing in the 80s being a paranormal investigator? Seriously, like you got to give me the deeds on this guy. Something's happening. but he went in and he was pretty like renown or I don't know about renown but people knew his name and he confirmed that this place was quote loaded with spirits so that was kind of all the hotel needed to be like all right we're a haunted hotel we've had first leaf wines as a sponsor for

so long like they've been just a part of our journey yeah I mean run it back to like episode like 20 or something I think they were one of our very first ads we ever ever did I think so and they're back at it asking us to make sure you guys know just how incredible they are from like brand new wine tasters to wine snobs first leaf is gonna be very yummy for you i tell you that katie um who does a lot of like behind the scenes for the podcast and for peripods and she was saying that her brother's a wine snob and when she like he would literally was a winery apprentice and gave him one of the bottles and he was raving about the wine how good it was so i feel like that's probably the top like personal endorsement you could get.

They deliver premium wine straight to your door every month. Oh, and a quiz. There's a quiz. There's a quiz. And we, that was the, I think the first quiz you ever probably took for in those sort of drink. I took it 16 times.

So whether you're like, you know, just making pasta or like a charcutory board or whatever it is. Or housewarming gift is always good. If, you know, whatever the reason is, you know, a first leaf is there for you and it will just get sent to your house.

It's incredible. Stop settling for wines that don't quite hit the mark. head to tryfirstleaf.com slash drink to sign up and you'll get 50% off your first box plus free shipping for an entire year. That's T-R-Y-F-R-S-T-L-E-A-F dot com slash drink. Try firstleaf.com slash drink. So the first ghost that people know about pretty well is Mr. Hurst, the guy who first originally opened the building when it was Hurst Hotel. It was named after. Is this like the Hurst family, like publishing family?

H-I-H-R-S-T. Oh, never mind, never mind. Okay. So people see his apparitional app. They see a man, quote, in a 19th century frock coat and top hat. Oh, hot. I was going to say, it's been like a hundred years. Take it off. Come on. Go to JCPenny. Like, it's okay to just wear some basketball shorts. You're dead. Seriously. Like, and you know people leave stuff in the, in the hotel room. Just grab something. Just anything. That's such a good, fucking point. You're in a house full of clothing. Just take it. And they would probably love it if you took it because then they get a ghost story out of it. And found, just go through the last and found. They don't need that shit anymore.

If you, okay, you're dead now. So, like, what's your official, well, first of all, do you change your outfit regularly? Or are you just going to have one, if you're told you only get one outfit? Are you going for, like, style or are you going for comfort because you're there for eternity? How about both? Okay. I'm going for, I want to look cute, but never regret what I'm wearing forever, which is very hard to find. But I think I would have to spend a lot of time trying to put that together.

I think you for asking. would have to know if I, if I sweat, because if I sweat, I'm going to have a lot of outfit changes, you know, in the afterlife. What's the, is, is the afterlife a perfect 71.702? Sure. Perspiration ratio. I need to know all these things before I commit to any sort of clothing. I agree. But if I'm stuck wearing one thing forever and like, I am sensory aware of what I'm wearing at any point, like, I need to know that going into this. And I, trouble, trouble. People would just be like, oh my god we went to m schultz's house and there was a homeless person haunting and it would just be me in like the most raggedy comfortable things possible like i would like like i feel like like the

Kardashians are probably going to die and be wearing like they're like crazy skin tight like things like aren't comfy silk lingerie that they sleep in or whatever yeah and it's like oh couldn't be me i'm wearing my basketball shorts that have three holes in them i'm wearing my sweatshirt that has for like I'm gonna be real comfy. So basically our generation of ghosts is going to be so much scarier because we're all just going to be wearing like cloaky baggy like kind of like sorcerer style dark layers and like the clothes that zombies wear where it just looks run the fuck down. Yeah where it's like how many layers did you put on? And also I feel like part of it is like I just got up to pee and I accidentally died on the way, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I was watching. I was binging my show and I really had to

and then I died and that's how I got here. And also like usually that that whole vibe goes with sort of like a don't perceive me element. And I feel like that also hand in hand with the ghost thing is going to be troubling for future investigators. I think that's also like it like make because if I know when I go, I want to be found by investigators. Like I'm let this statement be known if at some point I'll be dead. And at some point I would like to think one paranormal investigator is going to hear this. Yeah.

contact me. I'm telling you right now. I will, I want to be found. I will actively, if, if ghosts are real, I'm, and you're in my house or you're somewhere where I'll be like, you're not hiding. I'm not hiding and I will act. You don't have to say like, we would love for you to come out and tell us your story. Fuck that. I'm screaming my story. And if you can't hear it, it's because the machines are broken. Em's been following you around for days, knowing you're on the way. I literally, if you felt, if you felt a tingle on the way, it's because I was already there. you're like excuse me but you want to i would argue that wearing my like ratty clothes would be better because like you're definitely not going to like confuse me with someone else in the crowd

you know what i mean like except christine who also dies someday and looks exactly like that but yeah like at the haunted house like the haunted houses were like they think they like a child is lost in there but then they realized it was like a random like it was a dead kid sure it's like well maybe if he was like barefoot and wearing like something that was clearly 20 years older than than his time line. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it would have been a little more clear, more obvious. Yeah. Yes.

I get you. I get you. Yeah. I think that's where I'd be. But then if you die in the outfit that you just, if you're a ghost in the outfit that you died in, that I'm probably just only going to be in my underwear. And that's even more embarrassing. Oh, well, it is, but it isn't because also it's threatening.

I don't know how it's all about. It's all about how you look at it. It's all about confidence. As long as I'm walking around bold without pants. Boldly. That's, it's all about the attitude. Yeah.

Pants are like 80% of the time not on me. So I really hope you get to choose the outfit because. Oh, yeah. I've already resigned myself to being like half nude when I die because I don't, I don't usually wear pants. Yeah, no. You know what I find interesting though? And one of the reasons I don't believe that you, you, I think you get to choose what you wear is that so many people have probably died naked.

You, I've, not a single naked ghost have I heard of. They know better than to like, like approach you like that. That is so true. And I feel like maybe part of that is that you, they say, you know, you kind of revert back to an image of yourself at like the peak or like the most glowing version of you. And I would presume most people don't. Maybe some, which like good for you.

I hope to, I aspire to be that way. But I don't feel my most like golden and holy when I'm in the nude. You know, maybe my golden era would be more of like something cute I wore on stage, you know, or something. Like maybe that maybe you just get reverted back to like, oh, your youthful self, but not necessarily like, oh, oops, you're naked. Sorry, forever. I mean, if we're going off of like art, like what we would wear on stage when you felt your best, I know you're coming in haunting us with that fucking black leather jacket. I fucking know it. Thank you.

Or the blazer, the blazer, the blazer. And the black jeans with the holes in the knees. Christine, you look so killer in those. As a ghost, people will be like, I don't know if she was dead or alive, but she was fucking slamming. You know what I mean? But she really, she's probably got a Leo moon because she is really in our fucking faces and will not leave us alone. Holy shit. Well, anyway, this guy's got a fucking frock coat and a top hat.

I can't imagine anything more uncomfortable. Maybe that was his evening wear. Maybe we don't know. You know, it's so embarrassing. Maybe that was his version of looking slamming and we're just ragging on him. That's what I mean. Maybe he was like, that is my choice. and now I'm humiliated and I'm sorry. Oh, I feel bad now.

Well, when I get there on the other side, I'll make a stop in Michigan and go, I didn't mean it. I'm sorry. So anyway, he's also accompanied by the smell of cigar smoke and he has quite a deep baritone voice that people can hear laughing. And I like to think it's because of the comedy club. I bet it's hilarious. I bet he's like, I don't know what these kids are saying, but they look like they're having a good time. Caves me a chuckle. People also see a different man or maybe the same man, unclear.

a man and the halls vanishing in front of them while helping turn off lights and closing doors. Oh. So he's like, let me help, but get out of the, but don't look at me. He's like, don't look at me, but just got to do my work. You would think like you'd vanish before you turn off the lights, but he turns off the lights after. Like, so you see a man fade away and then all of a sudden the lights got out and you're like, oh. Yeah, he's like, oh, don't, yeah. Do those in reverse.

I'm the invisible janitor. Yeah, I don't like that. people also see a different ghost this one her name is nora kane what a powerful name love that norah kane i think died and now comes back with a boa on her neck or something like something for sure noah kane's so powerful she was she's a former hostess of the hotel and people see her whole apparition uh like walking around and her her full body but sometimes people only see her head floating by itself. Is the boa? Oh, wait, the bow is something you made up.

Sorry, I forgot. I forgot the bow was something you said. I was like, holy shit, the boa. It's just going to fall right on the ground. It's just her head. That's disturbing and strange. Even staff have said, like, we were closing up and then we thought we saw a woman in the other room, but when we looked, it was like only her head. That's fucking weird.

People often see Nora standing in the old main entrance, which would make sense for her, but it is now the bar area. people also say that she will photo bomb your pictures if you're there for a venue. I love that. I love that. Like a function. Just her head? I don't know, actually.

Because that would make it more convenient. And if you can only show your head, can you not also sometimes just like only show like an ankle and like be really scandalous? Yeah. Like can you just like flash and only one part of you shows up? I don't know what the possibilities are. She's also heard singing or if you're by a piano, people have heard her ask them to play piano. for her. Aw.

Apparently the piano will also play by itself sometimes. It's probably fucking Bruce. The fucking guy always seeking a piano out. He's still trying to figure out that Chattanooga song or something. Please. He's still trying to teach it to me. So most commonly people know her by her lavender perfume. And like I said, the other guy, Mr. Hurst, people know him by his cigar smell.

I think the smells are much more common than seeing them. But with Nora Kane, people have also seen her specifically. specifically in the bathroom, but it's always like after you've already gone to the bathroom and you go to the sink to wash your hands. And then she just like appears next to you and she's whispering something you can't hear. Well, I hate that. And also it reminds me of the photo bombing where she just like appears in a reflection of you or like in, uh, in behind you or, oh. Yeah. Yeah.

No, thank you. There's, um, how do I put it? I don't know if it's Noracane or if it's a different woman. But one of the staff members have said that although she seems really nice and friendly, eventually she will, quote, change her demeanor and it's something a lot more like a monster. What could that mean? I just hate it. What could that mean? And then like no more information happens about that.

It's just that's it. So you just get to guess and maybe go there and hope. Like she just gets like a little bitchy because everyone's like crowding in or is it like she literally turns demonic? You know what I mean? Like there's like a wide range of what that could mean. And there's something so eerie about. anyone whispering and you can't hear what they're saying, but they're looking at you. And yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Uh-uh. No. No. There's also the ghosts of a little girl who ranges widely between nine and 15. Oh. Just can't tell their age. People are bad at guessing ages, including me. I'm bad at guessing, um, all height, weight, age.

I can't, I can't guess any of it. Someone was like where they look like. I would just describe a completely wrong person. Um, picture a person. And that's usually what they look like. And also because I'm so gender inclusive, I'm like, I couldn't even, maybe a little mask, maybe a little femme, whatever they were feeling. They weren't wearing a pin with their pronouns.

So it's not for me to say. Yeah, you're better off with just a solid shadow, like Peter Pan's shadow is where we start and that's where we end. I get it. I can see it. There's a little girl here between 9 and 15, although some have said it's two separate little girls, which would make more sense to me. But she's said to either be Nora's daughter or apparently there was a story that a kid

got trampled by one of the horses one time. Oh, no. I don't know how true that is, but that's at least a rumor. And people think that that's where the spirit of the girl might be coming from. But she's heard running up and down the halls. She's heard giggling.

She moves objects around the hotel. She showed up one time during a seance, horrifying. And most of the time she haunts the kitchen, actually one chef, it was very funny in an interview who was like, it's actually really fucking annoying during like rush time. And like, I'm busy. And there's a kid giggling in my ear.

Oh, my. I got in sharp knives everywhere. Yes. Well, speaking of sharp knives, her favorite thing to do is play with the knives. I knew it. Favorite thing. Especially there's this one particular meat cleaver. Oh, God.

That, like, everyone knows it was, like, her favorite toy, which, like, of course, in all of the reenactments, there's, like, a little girl at the end of a hall holding a meat cleaver. Yep. That's her. With her favorite toy. More realistically, I think she's just, like, maybe playing kitchen or something, because, like, the knives will just get moved all over the place. The teapots will get moved.

it all over the place. Yeah, it's like she's just like a ghost in a house, like moving stuff around. Yeah. Yeah. But like the one chef that was already kind of complaining about her was like, I'll leave it right here at my station. And then all of a sudden it's like over here and I know nobody has touched it. Like they know better than to touch it.

The meat cleaver of all things. This is probably going to be your favorite of all of the ghosts is her name's Leona. Wait, really? And she's a little rat terrier. A dog named Leona. this is getting crazy. Kind of better than either human Leona, I would argue. Like now you've got the puppy element.

Oh my God. All right. Well, you know, I got to stand by my girl. I'm not going to do that on air. I'm just trying to cause a fight. So seeds of discord. I'm just saying with the rat terrier, I can really, I don't think Leona would let me do this to her face.

You know what I'm saying? I don't know that a rat terrier would let you do that to its face. I'm just going to put that out there right now. I think I have a better chance with the rat terrier. Let's put that way. I think, yeah, my Leona would be much more likely to bite. So that's that part is true. And I do speak from experience, if you're wondering.

Has she gone through a biting phase yet? She is not, actually. Knock on wood. She bit me one time. I bet my mom one time when I was little. And I remember like being like one day my child is going to bite my shoulder and I'm going to and it happened. And then it never had to.

Thank God. Knock on wood. But I think I also bit one time. And then I was like, I actually didn't really enjoy. that. Yeah, and my mom for sure fucking didn't. She had a terrible time. And then she actually bit me back one time. Anyway, this is the third cutest Leona out there, the rat terrier. Wow. Thanks a lot. So nice. I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna back away slowly. But people hear paws running around, which like if you're gonna have a ghost in the hotel, make it a dog. Please God. It has to be a little clattering dog for sure. A little pitter, patter. The most soothing sound. Like footsteps, no. Can you imagine having a ghost in the hotel? Can you imagine having a ghost of a dog? You can you imagine having a dog. You know. I'm sorry. You can you imagine having a dog. You can you. You can't. You can you imagine having a dog. It has to be a dog. It has a dog. It has a dog. It has a dog. It has a dog. It's a dog. It's a dog. It's ghost dog where, because my dog is, I know Gio's one of them too, he's one of those dogs that when he lies down, it's almost a guarantee every time he get one of those like, so over it groans, where it's like, yeah, it's like, give me a break. Yeah. Imagine having a ghost that just sounds

over it in your room with you. And you're like, was that a man or a dog? Yeah, is that a rat terrier or what? I think all, I mean, if it's a rat terrier, it probably sounds cuter than when my dog does it. You're right. But they hear paws running around. Apparently you'll see paw prints on dusty parts of the floor. Sweet. People will hear barking. They'll feel a dog brushing up against them or like a tag, a tail wagging against them.

And then other than that, objects, there's a quote, objects will levitate inside across tables. People also hear faint old fashioned music playing. They'll get their clothes tugged on. Apparitions will show up at the top of the stairs looking back at you. silverware will rearrange itself chairs will rearrange themselves doors will slam people have gotten many EVPs here servers have um ordered at tables I've gotten orders from tables and when they look back no one's actually sitting there so they got a fake ass order that's crazy I love that and I wonder if they're ordering food that's like not on the regular menu you're like we got to compare those

orders is it the same order every time is it like yeah like crab walder what the fuck or is it like gelatin shrimp mold or is it like Sprite yeah I want to know. I wonder if one of them is like, I've been hearing all the new rage about this, Dr. Pepper, I got to try that. Or like, Dr. Pepper. And the waitress is like, I'll see what we can do. But anyway, so apparently they put orders in and then realize no one's sitting there. There have been other times where they take an order at like a table of three and then only two people order and they realize the third person.

See, that's so creepy. That's so creepy. And then they were like, where's your friend? And it's like, what the fuck? Yeah, no. Literally horrifying. And imagine if it were us and we just found out someone was sitting at our table. Yeah, exactly.

Clear as day. No. Who, that would be a bad day. What do they look like? What kind of crab did they order? And they'd be like, well, think of a boy girl with a range of height and weight and age. Think of a shadow of a person. Make a Peter Pan's shadow and just go from there.

The final thing I'm going to say is that on Reddit somebody wrote in that had investigated the place a few years ago. And this is a quote from them. This is from a user called Jenny Lava. And they said, while investigating the area or the attic area, I was slapped so hard across the back of my head that it pushed me into my friend. What the fuck? That's not cool. Fully like bitch slapped.

It seems like, holy crap. Catao. Who would do that? Which one of these ghosts? That little girl with a meat cleaver, I bet. Oh my God. She hit you with a meat cleaver and you just think you got slapped in the head. It was a cute little puppy.

Maybe. So then they go on to say, we heard. growling coming from a far back corner where no one wanted to go. On the main dining floor, we looked through some sort of night vision, heat vision goggles. And I saw someone dining at a small table. But when I took the goggles off and looked at the table, nobody was there. And I was the only person in the room. And once we got back to the basement, we decided to stand in a circle with our lights off to see if one last thing could happen. So we turned the flashlights back on a few moments later. And a twine bracelet with a washer appeared in the middle of the circle.

What? Just like a random bracelet appeared. But like a twine with a washer on it? Yeah. So like somebody's hand crafted in the like dark basement corner of all they could find on the dusty floor. Like that's not cool. Horrible. Yeah.

Agreed. Like I made you this. What the fucking hell. Like a parting gift. Ooh, it's a charm. Like no, that's trash. Put that down. Don't touch that.

Well, the Holly Hotel, if you want to learn more, it is featured on the first season. You know, I would wear that home. I'm such a dumb bitch. I'm like, I would wear that right home. And you'd be like, and I'd be like, why are we cursed? And you'd be like, you took the gift from the small child and put it on your wrist. It's like literally on fire. And you're like, I don't get it. 100%. I'd be like, it was a gift from a small child. So I just say that to say, take everything I say with a grain of salt people. If you want to learn more, you can watch about the Holly Hotel on most terrifying places in America and its first season. There was also, you could watch the drunk history of Carrie A Nation. And that was season three. And then in 2022, there was a, they call it a Hallmark movie. It's actually somehow worse.

And it was not by Hallmark, but people call it a Hallmark movie because of the aesthetic it brings. And it was called Christmas at the Holly Hotel. And I can't tell if the movie was inspired by the Holly Hotel or and or some of the articles I read said that it was actually filmed at the Holly Hotel. So, oh, cool. Could be both, could be neither. But the plot, I'll just read you the synopsis. Yeah. Kathy, a fiercely independent New York City-based food critic who was asked by her parents to return home to the, to return home to Michigan for the holidays to help manage a massive Christmas dinner at the historic Holly Hotel.

While navigating her career aspirations, she reconnects with her family and falls in love with a local police officer named Matthew. And I'm sure Matthew goes, please stay. I'll do anything. Oh, please. You're from the big city. For Beach 2 Sandy, here are the first five reviews. Yes. So tedious, so boring, so bad, but like a train wreck I couldn't stop watching.

The worst acting I've ever seen in a movie, terrible. Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, no. And that's the Holly Hotel. You hate to see that. Well, yeah, we've read reviews of Lifetime movies and Hallmark movies and boy, boy. You got to.

They get rough, you know. Wow, well done. I just, I love a haunted hotel. You know that about me. I'm sad it's closed. I hope somebody can kind of get it cooking again. Yeah. If someone's got just a cool casual million dollars and they're really just laying around.

Litigation with this like other business. Let me know. And want to like run an entire hotel operation. Yeah. That may or may not have been the set of a Hallmark, not Hallmark, knockoff Hallmark movie. Yeah, with probably 1.5 out of five stars on TV on online. Wow, good job. I'm going to pee.

Yeah. Then let's do a yappy hour. We'll do a quick yappy hour because we talked so much in the beginning. Okay. We'll do a quick yappy hour. Okay. So you look like Cupid's first aid. You know what I'm saying?

Like, um, not first aid like a first hand aid. The Red Cross. Like an aide, like a person, Jesus. Doctors without borders. I guess. Okay. Here what I'm, listen, I'm doing something similar to all these beautiful humanitarian missions, which is that I am bringing you some really good news, which is that Zeni

makes wonderfully affordable, stylish statement piece glasses. Or if you're like blazed and you just want rectangle ones, fine. You can do that too. But I got the hearts. I got the ones that turn pink. Also, they block people, I think, from stealing my identity, it said. Your identity still has not been stolen, thanks to Zanis. It's still safe behind these beautiful heart-shaped glasses.

You know, whether it's prescription glasses, sunglasses, blue light lenses, apparently identity protection. Yep, yep, yep. You can get anything going on over there. And they have over 150,000 five-star reviews. So Beach of Sandy actually can't. It's ironic that you have to talk about them on your show where you just give bad reviews. They look stunning if you ever want to know what I meant by Cupid's. Aid. Hopefully someone knows you just look like the right hand man to someone who's in charge of love.

If your glasses are overdue for a refresh, now is the time. Go to zeni.com slash podcast and use code podcast 15 for 15% off your first order. The styles sell out, so don't sit on it. That's zen, n.i.com slash podcast promo code, podcast 15. Okay, welcome back. We just went to a deep dive on my Reiki stuff. So if you're interested, you go join the yappy hour. Okay, let me find the document because this one, um, it's a doozy. Oh, boy, it's a dozy. Um, so this is one of those stories that I'd always wanted to cover and never,

it was always bookmarked. And for some reason, it never happened. And now here we are. It is a story of Gerard Schaefer, um, a serial killer. So, okay. For those who've been complaining, I don't cover enough serial killers. Here you go. hope you're happy.

1972, of course, the era of serial killers. Yeah, yeah. Peak era, yeah. Peak era of serial killers. 1972, Susan Place was earning her high school diploma at an adult education center in Florida. She had moved in with her family to a suburb of Fort Lauderdale from her childhood home in Michigan and was struggling to fit in at her new high school. A complication during birth had caused something called. called hemoplegia, which is like a paralysis that affects one side of your body. And she was diagnosed

with epilepsy. And so being in high school, moving to a new high school is already tough. And then you've got, you know, differences that are more obvious and, you know, the epilepsy. And she's feeling not quite right. She's not fitting in. Back in Michigan, she did have a good group of friends. She'd been a friendly and fun-loving teenager. She sang. She played piano and guitar. But, in this new town in Florida, she was really struggling to make friends. She got, of course, bullying from her classmates for her disabilities. And then not only was school tough, but outside of school, things were not much better. She was fired from her job because she disclosed that she had epilepsy on her job application.

And the grocery stores insurance company considered her a liability. And so they fired her. Okay. Just to give you an idea of like how tough things were, her sister Kristen recalls her calling one day, crying and just asking, why do I have to be an epileptic? Because it was just she felt like that was making her life so much harder. That's so sad. And remember this was pre-A-A-so like pre-Americans with Disabilities Act, which exists to protect folks with disabilities from discrimination. and, you know, back then especially, it was like, well, sorry, the insurance company doesn't want you around, so bye, you know.

Right. So looking for any sort of solution to the isolation and discrimination that she at least faced as school, Susan decided to finish her diploma at the adult education center and her parents were supportive of that choice. They understood. And it was there at the adult education center that she met 16-year-old Georgia Jessup, who sometimes went. by the nickname Crystal. Now, Georgia's parents were divorced, but they were co-parenting and remained relatively friendly. But Georgia was like a wanderer. She wanted to travel.

She wanted adventure. She ran away a few times. But she always came back because she actually loved her parents. So it wasn't so much that she was running away from like a life she didn't like. She just loved to adventure. Okay. So the two of them actually had. had this in common, this wander list, especially after Susan had moved to Florida and felt so

out of place. They both were like, we want to get out of here, you know? And you introduced two teenagers with wanderlust and here you go. There's probably going to be something. Then every like a coming of age movie happens. Totally. Every plot. Yep. So Georgia, she loved this sort of like lifestyle of running away and being kind of flighty, but she always came back. She actually even sometimes called her parents on the way home to be like, oh, sorry, I ran away for a few days, but I'm heading home. Didn't want to worry you. Like, she's just off and about, okay. Good for her. You know what? So far, good for her. I know. And so, you know, I think her parents are probably having just heart attack after heart attack. But she's, she's exploring. She's a free word. Okay.

So they had this in common. They even wandered all the way to New York one time. And remember they're in Florida. Okay. So yeah, they, they wander. And they called their parents to say, don't worry, we're on our way home. And it was also at this same adult education center that the two of them, Georgia and Susan, met a man named Jerry Shepard.

Jerry was 26. So he was far older than the girls who were teenagers. He told them he was from Colorado where he said he spent his days out in the wilderness as an experienced outdoorsman. And he said, you know, I love to travel. Would you girls ever want to travel with me? And also, like, why are you ruining our best friend time? Like, we're off galvancing.

What do you mean? Because you're a third. Fucking, unfortunately, they were very... We're not trying to collab here. You know, unfortunately, I wish that were the case. But they were very drawn by his allure of having... transportation of having money, of having access to travel and adventure. And I think they just couldn't resist. He invited the girls to travel with them. And on one occasion, Georgia and

Susan tried to run away together to Colorado, but the police caught them hitchhiking and brought them home to their parents. And not long after that, Georgia left home with Jerry in Jerry's car. And they stopped at Susan's house to pick her up. Now, Georgia was running away. But Susan was not. She was actually almost 18 at this point. And so she had told her parents that she was planning to travel to Colorado. So in some way, she had already told them that this was what she was going to be doing. It wasn't like a solid plan.

Her family didn't know much, but she didn't want to just disappear. Like she told her parents, I'm going to be in Colorado for a while at some point. So the last time she'd run away and come home, she promised never to run away again because her mother had gotten so. upset. So she was very adamant that her mom knew where she was this time. On September 27th, 1972, Susan's mother, Lucille, found Susan cleaning her bedroom. And in the room with her were Georgia, her best friend, and Jerry Shepard, the 26-year-old creep. Okay. Lucille was like, oh, boy, Susan's packing. Are you going to Colorado? Yep, there she goes. And she says, yes, I am leaving town tonight. That's the Damn. That's a lot of, there's no turnaround time for these parents. Not at all. And the mom is really like, please don't do that. Please don't do this. You know, I mean, it's just like very sudden. But her daughter cried and told her mom that she was tired of Fort Lauderdale. She didn't feel at home there. She wanted time with her friends. And her mom was just very worried, argued with her. But Susan was just not going to be swayed. She was not going to budge. And finally, you know, she.

She just couldn't really do much except, except the situation. She later recalled that Jerry, for his part, seemed extremely smug and calm during the whole situation. And he actually inserted himself during their... Of course. Of course he did. And he said, don't worry, we're only planning to go to the beach to play guitar tonight. What a fucking creepo. And also, sounds like not at all what she's saying.

It sounds like they're going to Colorado. Exactly. She literally said, I'm going to Colorado. And he's like, don't even worry about it. Like, ugh. Yeah, I feel like that mom immediately got creepy viz from that fucking guy. Oh, big time, big time. She knew.

And by the way, like, you're 100% right. And she is not going to go away yet because she knew. She knew. Yeah. By the way, if anyone hears, that's me shifting in the chair. I just heard it through my ear headphones. And I went, I'm sure that microphone picked up a sound that was questionable. What did it sound like?

I missed it. I think it sound like. a little too, but it was like a little too, oh sure, sure. No, no, no. Well, that's too late. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I took the risk by even saying anything. I'll be honest. I didn't hear it. So, okay, cool. I'll just have Jack, um, amplify that in, in post. Here, here, this is the sound. There's a sound. You ready? Did you hear that? No. Okay. Whatever. I was, I'm trying to, it's a zipper. Whatever. Whatever. Whatever, it's funnier the more you explain it. I know.

I'm like, trying to breathe, actually. I'm like, my stupid couch, it probably sounds like I'm farting all day long on this fucking couch. Okay. I've never even thought to say anything. Okay. So, of course, this asshole is like completely smug. And you are 100% right that she got bad vibes because the next line in my notes is that she wrote down his fucking license plate. Good.

Because she was like, something is up with this dude. But she knew she couldn't stop her daughter. Like, it sucks, right? Like, her daughter's about to be 18. Legally, she can leave. And... What are you going to do? I mean, write down the license plate. And so that's what she does, which, like, good for her. I'm so glad she did that. Uh, anyway, they left. The three of them left.

And Lucille, of course, felt this pit in her stomach. She wrote down Jerry's license plate. And wouldn't you know, Susan did not come home that night. And four days passed with no word, not a phone call, nothing. Lucille knew something was wrong because Susan had promised to be in contact if she did go to Colorado and that she would tell her mom where she was and that she was safe. Not only that, but Susan hadn't actually packed any clothes or other belongings. They were like, oh, we're just going to go to the beach to play guitar tonight and then we'll do the big move. But she went to the beach to play guitar and then never came home and didn't bring any bags or suitcases or anything like that.

Do we think this guy was trying to immediately like shift the story so that? way if if slash when the kids went missing the mom would go to a beach and it would save time or like oh like almost like be try to tell her a different location to like preemptively divert her to a different place so you had more time to like hide bodies or whatever could be could be I don't know we shall see we'll we shall see okay um so susan had promised me in contact but she wasn't and not only did she not pack any of her clothes or belonging she didn't pack her epilepsy medication and like right you don't go without that lucille called some of Susan's few friends and connected with Georgia's mom, who she actually didn't know.

She didn't know Georgia's mom at this point. And that's when they realized that both girls were together and gone and had been not heard from. Lucille learned that Georgia had left a note for her parents because remember she was running away. Like she was intentionally not telling her parents. And so she ran away on September 27th and left a note. Now certain something was wrong because neither girl had contacted home, Lucille shared the license plate information with George's mother and both women reported their daughters missing to the police. They provided the license plate number, but wouldn't you just know it? The police missed the detail that the number was registered in a different county and so they were not able to pull up his car by the license

plate and the investigation died. That's tough. Doesn't that make you crazy? I really thought at the end of like she was going to save the day and like obviously she's done the right thing. So don't worry. She comes back. She comes back. Unfortunately, neither Susan nor Georgia would be seen again. Now, I want to time travel backwards a bit here three months earlier in July of 1972. Teenagers Nancy Ellen Trotter and Paula Sue Wells, who went by her middle name Sue, were hitchhiking in Florida.

and they were both from very far from their small town homes. 18-year-old Nancy was from Texas. 17-year-old Sue came from Michigan. They had first met while they were both hitchhiking to Chicago and became fast friends. They decided to divert their plans southeast to go be in the sunshine. And after a day at Jensen Beach, they were hitchhiking to their temporary home in Stewart when a deputy sheriff pulled over beside them and informed them that hitchhiking was illegal there. Now, Nancy and Sue were, neither of them were aware of this supposed law, but he said,

don't worry, you're not in trouble. I'll drive you home. They accepted the ride and on the way he even offered them to give, he even offered to give them a ride back to the beach in the morning. How nice of him. The sheriff's deputy was none other than 26 year old Gerard, Jerry Schaefer. He seemed very straight-laced professional. Nancy and Sue were also very adventurous girls and they had a sense of curiosity about where they were going.

They thought, well, okay, we get a ride, but we also befriend a local who is like trustworthy, right? Because he's a police officer. Yeah. So, and you think you've got, you would think that'd be helpful. Totally, totally, especially if you're not up to anything dangerous. You just want someone trusted that you can like look to. And of course he knows that. So hitchhiking was, of course, as we know, much more commonplace in the 60s and 70s. These two girls were also very well-traveled and confident. They were very, like, self-reliant and they relied on each other as well, like a safety and numbers feeling. You know, so I think that kind of put them at a sense of ease. And also, yeah, sorry, keep going.

Go ahead. I was just because I, and accepting a ride from a police officer, like, would have seemed safe to most people at any time. Yeah, exactly. Like whether or not you're a hitchhiker, whether or not you're, you're like, oh, here come the cops. Oh, at least he's just going to give me a ride home. And he's not, he's worried about me sort of like as someone who would protect me a father figure or like a, yes, it's his duty. Like his duty. He's here to protect you. Yeah. And so there's just something so sick about that. But yeah. So the idea that two girls get a ride home from an officer who's like, hey, you're not supposed to hitchhike here. I know it's common. You're not in trouble. Like, of course, they took a ride. I mean, the. I mean, the. These girls have hitchhiked all over the country with strangers. Like, this is going to be the safest option. Of course. So felt like a no-brainer. And so they agreed to meet Gerard the next morning so he could show them around,

take them to, you know, the local hotspots. Gerard Schaefer, let me tell you a little bit about this motherfucker. He was born in Wisconsin in 19. What is with Wisconsin, though? Nothing to do. I don't know. I don't know. I think it's got to be something in the.

In the water. Yeah, something in the water. In that Wisconsin water, yeah. All the cheese curds over there. Yeah, all that beer where they're drinking. I don't know what's in that. Okay, so from Wisconsin, he was born in 1946. Doris was a stay-at-home.

His mom, Doris was a stay-at-home mother. And his dad, Gerard, Sr. was a traveling salesman whose work kind of moved them around the country throughout his childhood. They moved from Wisconsin to Tennessee, then to Atlanta. And in 1960, the Schaefer's relocated a final time to Fort Lauderdale, Florida. And that's where Gerard would attend high school. He later in life described his childhood as unstable and unhappy. His father had alcoholism.

And he said his father was very unaffectionate and detached. He did have one bond with his father, which, as cliche as this is, it was hunting and fishing. And so that's kind of where he. feels like Wisconsin. Feels like men bonding in Wisconsin. Uh, yep. And they, you know,

that's where he proved himself, right? And his dad, uh, gave him a compliment at one point that he was even a beautiful shot. Oh. So that's about as far as the affection went. Um, when Gerard senior was away,

Gerard, his son went out on his own and people appreciated that he had a natural confidence alone in the outdoors, but, um, they didn't quite know what he was doing out there. A neighbor and friend named Gary did notice, however, that when Gerard was out enjoying nature, he seemed to enjoy killing animals for no reason. One of his favorite pastimes was just killing animals that he wouldn't eat, like songbirds, land crab.

Like, he just like to kill things. I mean, that's just like, ding, dang, dang, you know. I know. And I love that it's like, his friend said this. And I'm like, you've got an interesting friendship. His friend said he'd love to casually murder living creatures. Right. It's like, oh, okay, charming.

Um, so Gerard senior described his son, as I said, as a beautiful shot. And that's about as far as their affection went. Um, Gary thought of Gerard as a collector who was very proud to own and use his guns. And so like already kind of starting off on a very violent in a very like, you know, their only connection is hunting and that's it. Yeah. Um, as a 14 year old in Florida, Gerard got along with other boys his age. they would fish, drink, date, brag about their supposed, like, dates or whatever.

He played high school sports and his classmates had mixed opinions about him. So, like, some people were like, he's fine. And most people were like, he was a fucking creep. Like, yeah. Okay. That does make you feel better that at least people in his childhood are, like, can confirm. Because the other guy who's like, oh, yeah, he just killed a bunch of animals for fun. Ha, ha.

And it's like, I didn't see this coming. Is anybody looking and seeing and saying something? you know, aren't we supposed to see and say something? Yes, exactly. So, okay. I'm glad some people noticed. Barbara did. And Barbara later described him as just that, a creep.

She said he was never the kind of person I wanted to know. I can't remember him being friends. Babs. She's on it. She's got to spill the teeth. She had the, her perception was on. Oh, she's like, I've got the gift of discernment. Don't fuck around.

I'll get the yearbook out right now. and we can get through it. Okay. Yeah. He was never the kind of person I wanted to know. I can't remember him being friends with any of the guys. He was always on the outside looking in. As a matter of fact,

the only thing I really remember is that I always had to tuck my skirt under my legs because he would practically stand on his head to look up a girl's skirt. Jesus Christ. So if he was like that with people he didn't even really know, imagine the people he felt comfortable with to like try to like see how far he could push it. Ding dong, exactly. And Barbara was not, Babs was not alone in this opinion. And I will say he went by John.

So sometimes the quotes will say John, but that was his middle name. And so if it's quoted as John, that's why. He did seem well liked by other classmates though, probably ones that, you know, just appreciated the surface level stuff of what he brought to the table, you know? And maybe maybe that's it. But most people remembered him as pretty unremarkable. like he didn't have like super close friendships or anything like that. After high school, he really struggled through college. He took like tons of college credit hours.

I mean, it says 28 credit hours. I'm like, I don't remember what that means, but I'm sure it's a lot. I think it's like, I think every class is three credits. So it's probably like eight credit, three credits. So it's probably like eight or nine classes. Jesus. Okay. So he's taking like insane.

And then he would drop several so that he could pass the rest. Like he was just like constantly taking stuff on. He struggled with stress. Well, yeah, wouldn't you know it? And at one point, he even wrote a suicide note that actually got him evaluated by a psychiatrist and I guess evaluated and nothing more because that's the end of that. In 1968, he married another fellow student, Martha Fogg, but they divorced pretty quickly after that. And the following year in September of 1969, Gerard began an internship as a social studies teacher,

but was forced to withdraw from the program when parents started complaining about him and said he was being a creep. Creepie with the fucking students. I mean, like, I am fascinated by, not that I know any, but I am fascinated and would love to ask questions. I never would, but in a perfect world, I would love to ask questions on someone who's been married to someone like that, where it's like, or even ask the serial killer himself. I'm like, how did you marry someone and not get the urge with them?

Or like, did you get the urge with them? I mean, I think that's, you should get out on other people or like, how does it work? You should watch some of those like Netflix ones where they talk to murderers. I should. I really should. Because they really do explain those things. You know, what's like one of the main answers? I mean, I think a lot of times it's like, oh, it's either a marriage of like convenience or we're just having sex.

So let's get married or I don't know. I don't think. I don't think it's even really that deep a lot of times or it's to maintain a facade a lot of times, I think, a facade of a happy family, right? Or like just not even a happy family, any semblance of normalcy, you know, so. The poor, poor spouses of those people who it's like, I, he could have hurt me at any fucking. Oh, yeah. To learn. I mean, the BTK one is one of the most disturbing, especially when you hear from the children who are like, you know, he was doing this to other children.

Yeah. It's the it yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So there. And BTG has talked about all that too. So yeah, you can definitely find find the content you seek them. Don't worry.

I certainly could. And can I tell you something? You said in a perfect world. That means your perfect world already. This is my perfect world. Help me. Isn't that beautiful. Yuck.

Okay. And that's on manifesting. Okay. So. Uh, da da da da da. He got married and divorced. Probably because she was like, wait, this guy's a creep. I don't know.

but I imagine it didn't help. And parents had complained. He didn't cooperate with his supervisors. And then guess what? The following year, he was accepted back into the teaching internship program with new supervisors. It's like a priest when they just move them around, you know? I mean, truly, it's just like, why are,

and you have to assume he wants this kind of job on purpose. Right. Exactly. Like, why else are you pushing for this? Yuck. So he began this thing again in 1970. March of 1970 with new supervisors in May, two months later, booted again for poor performance, for defensiveness to any criticism, among many general concerns that he didn't know anything

about the subject he was teaching. So he really was purely there just to be near a bunch of vulnerable girls. I guess so. I guess. Okay. He's got one track mind, I guess. I guess so. With no teaching career ahead of him, he took a job as a security guard in 1970.

where he met 19-year-old Teresa Dean, who was a secretary, and six years, his junior, she fell for him. They got married. Later that year, Gerard lied about his work history in an application to train as a police officer. I am really extra super disturbed, even more than him being a teacher. I'm more disturbed about him being a police officer because, you know, I mean, I was just thinking back to the story of when he, when he, when. they were hiking in a spot where they shouldn't maybe they were totally allowed to but like they

weren't going to tell him no yeah he just made that up yeah or what if they said like oh no we don't need a ride we'll find our way back then he could have gotten aggressive and been like no you're not supposed to be here getting my car yeah or he could have i mean yeah well you remember who else was a cop golden state killer yeah you're on's i uh it's it's just to know that he's only seeking out jobs where he has authority over somebody is so scary because then if they say no he could then he has a plausible whatever to oh and he does anyway yeah don't worry we'll get there oh okay oh so you know the serial killer handbook i see okay yeah i've heard enough about these i think security guard police officer uh working with vulnerable populations i mean you know fucking rights itself um so she's 19 she falls for him

They get married. He lies about his work history in an application to train as a police officer, and they never questioned it. And so he became a patrolman. And he was known to be a stickler for traffic violations. And he insisted that he was passionate about keeping the road safe. But in reality, Gerard, wouldn't you know, pulled over women drivers far more often than men. And his department began receiving complaints that he was harassing the women he pulled over. Oh, good.

Yeah. Some sources say Gerard asked women out during traffic stops. Others say that he used women's license plate numbers to look them up and then call them and ask them on dates. Okay. Yuck. Yoss. Oh my God. Insane. Insane. Like not even like pretending to be discreet about this. Not even a layer of shame. No awareness of fucking no shame. Also like I don't have these bones in my body but if you're trying to like lure someone in or like get them to feel like they can trust to you like you have to at least be able to read the room on like how to not be such a fucking weirdo like from the beginning you know yeah yeah it did right it's like it's like where any of those women i mean maybe he thought he was charming them and then he's like wow i was so taken by you

that like i called you and i mean in some people's minds maybe that's romantic right like oh that cute cop like was so smitten by me you know you can you never know what someone's like something like grandma would tell you about how romantic grandpa is and it's like oh grandpa sounds a little fucked up yeah but like you know if who knows like maybe that works on someone i don't know but he got enough complaints sent in that they were like um you know you can't do that so anyway uh he did it anyway and he used this position to harassed women pretty consistently he didn't didn't stop, once again, not listening to supervisors and was fired six months into the job. So according to, fun fact, Christine, I'm throwing out.

I've been listening. I wasn't even like going to warn you. I'm just telling you now. I'm ready. According to CNBC, nearly half of hiring managers say a candidate's enthusiasm about the job is the most important factor when considering them for a role. That makes total sense because we had people applying who then said, I don't believe in ghosts. And we were like, what's the opposite of enthusiasm? Because it's that.

Well, if you need to hire for your business, how can you separate the candidates who are are really excited about your opportunity from the ones that are just kind of meh. Well, ZipRecruiter is there for you. They are going to find the right people with the right enthusiasm who do believe in ghosts. Yes. Unless your like whole job is like ghost skepticism, then maybe you don't want them, but bring them over here. Yeah, unless you're seeking that particular role or whatever, you know, like they'll cater to you. But we had very specific needs we were looking for. And Eva, of course, ended up matching those. Ziprocutter has a new feature that quickly lets you see the most interested qualified candidates first. So you meet the right people faster. And now you can try it for

free as zipprecruiter.com slash drink. Ziprecruiter's new feature puts the most interested qualified candidates at the top of your list. So instead of number three, Eva would have probably been number one. But you know what? We live and we learn ZipRecruiter. Okay. You can't be perfect every second. Use ZipRecruiter and find enthusiastic talent fast. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter, get a quality candidate within the first day, can confirm. And now you can try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash drink. That's ZipRecruiter.com slash drink. Meet your match on ZipRecruiter. So he forged a letter of accolade Okay

And got a new job as a deputy with the Martin County Sheriff's Department So cool at roughly 930 in the morning on July 22nd Gerard picked up Nancy and Sue in his deputy vehicle Not in uniform though He told them that some days he was assigned to wear plain clothes And only do observations that's all he's just like patrolling you know Okay I don't know is that true I feel like no Of course not.

No. Okay. That doesn't feel believable at all. I'm just here to show two young teenage girls around town. That's my job. No. I'm going to observe you. Yeah.

Yako. Okay. So he offered to show them this beautiful old Spanish fort on an island. Yeah. Yeah. Remember they're here to see. So these are the two girls that he said he's going to show them the town. Right.

And he's like, there's this really cool island. And there's this beautiful. full old Spanish fort because, you know, it's Florida, like the history on Hutchinson Island. And they're like, sure, yeah, let's go to the, let's go to the, this old fort. As they stood by the river, Gerard's relaxed demeanor suddenly shifted. He became very serious. And he asked them if they knew anything about drugs in the area. And Sue and Nancy were like, uh, no.

Like, no, of course not. we're literally here with a police officer to look at tourist stops. Like, you took us here. Yeah. No, we don't want. Do you know what you think about drugs on this?

Right. And like, why do you want to know? Like, they were like, what the fuck? So apropos of nothing, Gerard told him,

I'm telling you, M, there's no way I can prepare you for this except to say, apropos of nothing, Gerard told them he could dig a hole and bury them in it. I mean, unfortunately, I smelled that from a mile away.

Right. I mean, as soon as you're asking, about, you know, anything, whatever their answer is, you now can say like, well, I don't believe you or whatever it is, you know. Well, I'm so happy to hear that because you're right, because he told them there would be no crime without a body, but instead of being afraid, they were irritated. And they said, I wish I had the fucking audacity of a kid that age.

These 1970s, bad bitches, they're like, they're like. I just can't with this guy. You know, they're like how you just, I cut you off there, but you did say that it's just too hot and like, they're just too hot. They're like, it's too hot and we're too sweaty for this right now. And that alone, honestly, if something bad were to happen to me, I'd be like, could it happen on a day where it's not so fucking hot, please? It's, it's fucking Florida and we're on an island.

I am assuming mosquitoes are swarming. This fucking guy. Yeah. This fucking guy who is. a police officer so they're not like that afraid but they're also like what is your fucking deal guy like well also if he's maybe because he wasn't in uniform maybe he didn't have like a a visible firearm on him so he felt less threatening and they're like what the fuck is up with this loser like maybe they can still take him if it's just the two of them exactly and they've and they've I mean they've

seen and is the mosquito back it is he heard me talk about haunting uh but yeah they I mean they had they were like very trained in the art of keeping themselves safe, right? And, like, keeping each other safe. And so they were not afraid. They were irritated and sweaty and hot. And they wanted to go to the beach and were like, what the fuck? Okay. So Gerard became agitated and he said he was placing them both under arrest.

Yep. I mean, immediately. What the second you're asking. The second that you want their, I mean, I'm just saying the obvious at this But you're right. I'm not surprised. Like, Jesus Christ, of course. And so he gets out.

He handcuffs them. And then he sits back in the cruiser. Then he asked them if they know anything about white slavery. Oh. Okay. It's escalating quite fast. It's getting out, out of, it's getting out of hand. I almost feel like when he first arrested them or handcuffed them.

I feel like they were like giggling. Like, oh, this is so funny. They were probably like, what is it? What is with this guy? Isn't he like trying to like be friends with them? And it's like, oh, get off me. And like he's clearly trying to play the like, you better listen to your elders. Like I'm a cop and you should listen to me.

Right. I would have thought he was kidding at first. Then I've been like, oh, my fucking God. Like I would the immediate panic would have kicked him quickly. So they're a little bit like confused like you're saying. Like they're like, what the fuck is going on? Are we like, is this a bit? Is this not a bit?

Unfortunately it's not a bit. And he asks if they know about white slavery and then he starts disqual. discussing methods of forcing the women into human trafficking. And they're still not afraid. They're just more confused and like fed up. And so they stopped talking to him. I love that they're like actually silent treatment time. They literally just stopped responding.

And he got so they gray rocked him. And he got so fucking mad. Okay. So they're gray rocking him. um, Gerard gets out of the cruiser and he gets some ropes and sheets out from the trunk. He tears gags from the sheet. He ties them around their mouths. I mean, they're already not talking to you, but whatever. Right, right, right. Like, okay, go off, King. Okay. So he made Sue sit on the ground so he could tie her legs together. Um, he then handcuffed, uh, he, he then made them aware that

he was armed after handcuffing them. So at this point, they don't know what else to do. Nancy at this point realized she could have run, she could run away, but she doesn't want to leave her friend. I can't. I'm not leaving Sue. Yeah. Yeah. So she stays. Gerard told Sue that if she tried to escape, he would kill Nancy and then find her and kill her too. And she's like, I ain't going nowhere. So he leaves Sue tied up on the ground, forces Nancy to follow him to a tree in the river. the river was the body of water that cut Hutchinson Island from the mainland. And at low tide, there would be these like enormous tree root systems that came up visible above the water. And so Gerard made Nancy climb onto the roots, then tied her legs and tied a noose around her neck.

Oh my fucking God. I know. So that if she even slipped on the, on the slick branches, the slick root system. So don't think about running away, even if you accidentally run away. It'll hang. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Horrifying.

So he looped that over a tree branch, tied it to another branch behind her, and if she slipped off the wet roots, she'd be hanged. So she is trapped in this position. Gerard, Gerard pinched her butt, threatened to rape her, and then left her there.

Oh, God. Nancy managed, now listen to this, managed to maneuver her way out of the gag first, then twist her head to chew on the knot of the noose. She's so powerful. It could not come undone in her mouth. mouth, but when she dared to lean back slightly, even with like this fucking terrifying situation, she felt the point where the rope was tied to another branch.

And because she had been chewing on that part, the other part of the rope, it had been loosened. So she with the handcuff ties was able to reach that knot and untie it with her. Literally, are you kidding me? Yeah, like literally McGiiver, right? McGalver. McAlver. I think I've tried that joke before and it did not land. Okay.

lands here that's great thank you thank you she I love all the laughter I heard okay she that's how I know it was a good joke I was no more clever I was just like that's good yeah it's like when blaze goes oh that it's like Gwen blaze goes that's funny and I'm like is it I did truly I was on your side is it though thank you I do appreciate it I do I can tell I do appreciate it so she's able to like pull her hands out and unbound her legs but of course she's she still has handcuffs on, like police handcuffs. So she can't get her handcuffs off. So she sneaks away first to hide the fucking ropes because she's like, if Gerard comes back,

at least he won't know where the ropes are and can't tie me back up. And I'm like, this girl's fucking smart. Like, she's on it. She's like, at least he can't hang me again, which like maybe that's also survival instinct. Like, oh, let me put this as far away from me as possible. But either way, like, she gets rid of that. She saw his car was still parked there. So she knows he's like in the fucking vicinity.

And probably watching her. That's the scary part. Either watching her or she doesn't know what he's doing with Sue, her best friend either. So it's like fucking terrifying. Yeah, he could come back any second. He could be watching her right now. She knew she couldn't fight him with her hands in handcuffs.

So she traveled through the river and she followed it because she knew it would lead to the highway. At one point she even her- She's fucking incredible. I know. And at one point she heard someone calling her name and she, almost responded but then was like oh gerard might be forcing sue to call for me oh my god she's so to lure me to lure me back and i need to get her to safety before i've i mean what the fuck talk about i mean and like in some ways like if i were sue right now i'd be like where the fuck are you i'd be like

get over here but at the same time i'd be like she's on her way to get help no i'd be like but if you're screaming the name you're like don't fucking don't listen to me i wouldn't even thought to do that would have been, I would have, I would have, I would be like, youhoo, I'm right here. Oh my God. I know. I know. Terrible. So she did not respond. She saw cars, like eventually. She kept going. The river got really deep. And she had to swim without using her hands and like, just treading. Just swept into anything, you know. But she kicked. She floated sideways. And she really had to relax her body to stay afloat, which was also like, obviously in the most stressful time of her life to

relax your body is like, what the fuck. So the section of the river was wide and she could actually see cars ahead, but they were so far away. Like they were just like small on the horizon. So there's no way they could see her. But she finally made it to shore. And she remained in knee deep water because she was too exhausted to like climb out of the water at this point. And she just started screaming at passing cars. And her feet were bloody from all the shells. She'd been stung twice by jellyfish. and later told a newspaper, I got stung by two jellyfish while swimming. That's not very much fun.

Girl. Once is enough with my hands untied without someone killing my friend. In Barbados on an all expenses paid vacation. Yeah. Right. Like on a sandals vacation package. Totally.

Totally. I, that's, I can't even. It's just absurd. I mean, I guess when you have so much adrenaline, you can't even fucking feel it. I know.

And I think that's what happens in these scenarios. It's like, Like you're just instincts and your, your, something turns on and you're like in go mode, survival mode. It's amazing. So Sheriff Robert Lewis Crowder, Gerard's boss pulls over in front of her. And the reason he's there is because he's out looking for Nancy and Sue. Why is he out looking for Nancy and Sue? Because Gerard had called in to the police station and admitted his own crime.

What? Yeah Was it because maybe Did he realize that she was missing And was like oh fuck I better tell all myself Uh huh Uh huh uh huh Wow

So he was like well maybe I'll Have a better shot if I own up to it Versus getting told on You're gonna be mad So he calls and says I've done something foolish You're going to be mad at me He told a story to Crowder

That what happened is He wanted to teach them the dangers of hitchhiking. Oh, shut the fuck up. So he was just, he was just like trying to scare them straight, you know? Like, he was trying to protect them. It was a bit. It was a silly joke, but they took it too seriously.

From the dangers of the world. Like, these are vulnerable women, and I don't want them to just be out there. Let's pretend he's telling the truth. Let's pretend for a second. He still committed crimes by hanging her in a fucking tree and holding them at gunpoint and threatening rape. Like, he said, she said, he said, he said, wrong. runaway teen police officer.

I'm opening my mouth right now to get a sample of all the rope fibers. I had to chew off myself. Good fucking point. Well, don't even worry about it because of course they find her on the side of the road. And like it's obvious she's fucking been through it. Okay. Like nobody's like,

oh, he did something great. They found them. They found, first of all, a truck driver had found Sue first. And she was handcuffed. alone and screaming for help as he drove by. And the truck driver and Sue called the sheriff

department requested to speak to the sheriff directly, none of the deputies. And when Crowder found Nancy, he told her Sue was alive. And as he uncuffed her and wrapped her in a blanket, she asked what's going on. He said, guess we had one bad apple in the bunch. I think everyone just made that sound with me. Okay. It was a communal mantra. I like, I can't even get into the spiel about bad apples right now. But okay. Please. Please. And here's where it just gets worse. Sheriff Crowder fired Gerard. And of course he did because he's a good guy and he did the right thing. He fired the man. And he requested he received a psychiatric evaluation, but that never happened. And he just moved right on. What a fucking asshole. Here's what Crowder later said. I don't think

anyone recognized the potential seriousness of what he had done. Huh? I think everyone by you, babe. What the fuck are you talking about? Piece of shit. In the end, Gerard accepted a deal and was charged with one count of assault and was sentenced to six months in prison. This is not the end of the story. It's no. Okay, okay. I was like, you're kidding. Okay.

No, it just keeps going. The next spring in April 1973, men collecting aluminum cans in a Florida swamp were horrified to discover human remains in what appeared to be a shallow grave. Now, this site was less than 10 miles from the riverside where Gerard had abducted Nancy and Sue the summer before. At least one of these victims had been bound and tied to a tree. So the Florida heat and wildlife had impacted the condition of the remains, but investigators were able to use clothing and dental records to identify the remains as belonging to 17-year-old Susan Place and 16-year-old Georgia Jessup. The two girls that we started the story off with who met and went to the beach. Another corner of Colorado, but also playing guitar on the beach.

Yeah. And here they are found the following year. There remains one, like I said, had been tied to the tree. So essentially, we know that's what he was planning to do was to kill obviously the other two. And when one got away, you know, Sue escaped as well. I'm honestly surprised. I'm surprised that he even tried to do that with two girls versus one. Like, just like, why wouldn't you take?

I don't know. I would think that like if this is your quote first time doing this, like would, would you? Oh, it wasn't. Okay. Oh, don't worry. It wasn't. Oh, don't worry. It wasn't.

Remember, he was killing animals at 10 or whatever. Yeah. Okay. So, yep, one bad apple in the bunch. So now these remains are found. And Susan's parents, Lucille and Ira Place had already suspected that this fucking creep jerry, who was like in her daughter's bedroom and was like it's fine misses whatever we're just going to the beach like she already suspected this fucking guy remember she wrote down his license plate so they had managed to solve the license plate mistake that the police said was a mystery right because they couldn't figure out how the fuck to find a license plate in a different county so they figured it out and we're like oh it's just from a different county and jerry shepherd is actually a guy named gerard schaefer and he was apparently serving a sentence for abducting to women so they've already found this all out before the remains were even found. And he had committed that several months before

he'd appeared in their daughter's bedroom and said, hey, we're just going to be out for a while. And then they never saw their daughter again. So they already knew like this fucking guy killed our daughter most likely. And, you know, at first the timeline didn't make sense because it said he was serving a sentence. But what had happened is that he had actually, uh, his beautiful wife, Teresa, who just was in love with this guy for some fucking reason, vouched for him. So there's another answer for you. And said, you know, gave an alibi, right? And made bail for him.

And he was released for several months. So that was just not in the record. So they didn't realize. And on that release is when he killed their daughter. Okay. So as the pieces began to fall into place, investigators followed a warrant to search Gerard's home. What a great idea. Lieutenant Chuck Hemp of the Oakland Park Police Department later said that the house was fairly large and for a while they didn't find much of interest until they flipped through one of his pornography magazines and a two-page document fell out of the pages that described kidnapping, torturing, and murdering women.

It was just one piece of many writings Gerard had done on the subject of harming women. and he wrote that there would be plenty of opportunities to choose women to abduct from among many seasonal visitors to Florida. So he just loved like the tourist aspect of being able to. I mean, it's just the easiest. It's like people that are already away and not near their people. And if they go missing. Especially in the 70s, you're not like on fine. You know, I mean, yeah, yeah, exactly.

So he wrote about different methods to humiliate, rape, torture, and mutilate women. And to answer your other question, he wrote that murdering women in pairs was ideal for him because, according to him, women let their guards down when they traveled together.

Oh. Okay. I don't know if that's really true. I mean, I think it kind of was. Is it? Yeah. I think so. I mean, I think it depends, but I think, like, safety and numbers.

I mean, if your friend is with you and you're both, like, really self-reliant and tough and you're like... Sure. we've seen a creep before, you know? Right. And before you know it, this guy's like completely disarmed you and been like, and suddenly you're, yeah, I think, I think, I think he unfortunately knew, knew what he was doing.

Yeah, so that's all the stuff they found in his writings. But of course, he later maintained that this was all fiction and he, they couldn't convict him just based on these documents. But in a closet, detectives discovered something they could convict him with. It was an antique trunk filled with trophies. Okay? Trophies from his victims. There were personal items such as planners and jewelry. There were teeth with gold fillings.

God. He was eventually charged with first degree murder for the killings of Susan Place and Georgia Jessup. He pleaded not guilty and was extremely smug throughout the entire trial thinking he was literally not going to be found guilty. But also like he had been treated so leniently, with everything else he fucking did. It's not a surprise. Like, at this point, he probably would just get off, you know? Right.

I mean, it wouldn't be hard for him to believe that he could get off. Right. Exactly. Like, it, in his own pattern of behavior, he's gotten away with it many, many times. Have you ever watched those videos online of, like, the, like, in courtrooms when, like, someone who's horrible and, like, it's clear, like, needs to be put away is acting really smug towards the judge. Oh, I can't stand it.

And then the judge, like, really lays it out and, like. Inverates them. It's like they took a plea deal and then the judge is like, I'm actually rescinding the plea. I'm deciding that there's no plea deal. You're going to jail for the rest of your fucking life. Yeah. I love those videos where like you just see someone smug get fucking humbled. I know.

Just like get that fucking grin off your face. Yeah. Yeah. So they discover this stuff. He says, oh, I'm not guilty. Super smug. in one surviving footage of an interview, he smiled as he said, I didn't do it. I don't think the state has proved I did it in any way. And the testimony of my witnesses has counteracted the

testimony of the other witnesses. So he really just didn't think it was going to happen. What an asshole. What an asshole. He was, thank God, convicted for the murders of Susan and Georgia, but the death penalty, shockingly, was not legal in Florida at the time. So the prosecution sought two sentences of life in prison and they did win this request. But he was stabbed to death in prison by another incarcerated man on December 3rd of 1995. So how long was he in before he? Before he died? Great question.

Because I'm always so over it. Every time I watch like the Law and Order episodes, I know that's not, that's very different than this, but that's my only experience with it. Right, right. Is when like someone who deserves go to jail for the rest of her life, like ends up, quote, getting away with it by dying, like, the day of going into jail. I know. It always happens.

It's like so anticlimactic. Or like has a heart attack immediately. And it's like, oh, come on. Yeah. I don't know. Maybe that's awful of me that I want to. I don't know. I think someone's waiting.

Someone's waiting for him. How long was, did we know how long he was there? Um, I don't know. I believe probably 15, 20 years. Okay. So it wasn't like immediately at least. No, I believe, um, I believe he was there for like over a decade. I don't have the exact date, but it was, he was in there for a while.

Um, now I do want to add there's like a last unfortunate like part to this. Oh, good. Yeah, it gets worse. I know. It's just like, of course it gets worse. Okay, so he is convicted, a sentence to two sentences of life in prison. Gerard is stabbed to death in 1995.

He was charged for those two murders, but, and here's the kind of like add on to this, he is suspected to have killed between 11 and 28 women. Wow. In 1966, and I'm just going to mention a few here. because in 1966, 20-year-old Pamela Ann Nader and 21-year-old, again, two. Nancy Elaine Leichner were at a picnic with friends in the Alexander Springs Recreation Area of the Ocala National Forest in Altoona, Florida. And they left the picnic spot to walk a nature trail and never came back. Wow.

They were not believed to have drowned because they were such good swimmers. And they were literally attending the picnic as members of a swimming club. Like hello. So, like, hello. And they had already decided not to swim that day because it was too cold. So they were like, they did not drown. That's not what happened. Right.

In 2007, Lake County Sheriff's Office Cold Case Review Board announced that Gerard Schaefer had murdered both women. So this was, you know, okay. So at least that's confirmed later. Yeah, 22 years after his death. But yeah, they confirmed that he did kill them. Pam. And, you know, what's so dark, too, is that Pamela and Nancy's at the time, boyfriends were once suspected in the case.

So, you know, like you think of just the decades of this. And also the, yeah, I'm not discrediting that or even just like the, the grief and torment that the family and friends went through without answers. Absolutely. That was the biggest thing. And they all expressed like finally getting closure in 2007, you know? Yeah. In 1969, 24 year old Lee Farrell Hainline Bonadies disappeared. Lee and Gerard had known each other for years, which is also scary that he knew someone for years.

years before even acting on the murderous, like, tendencies, right? Sure. Her brother had actually considered Gerard a good friend when they were teenagers. So this was, like, definitely someone who felt safe with him. Lee's remains were discovered at a construction site in 1978 and a bracelet that belonged to Lee was identified amongst the items in the trunk and the antique trunk that was in his house. Wow. Oh.

old Carmen Marie Halleck disappeared that same year and a shamrock pin that belonged to her and two of her teeth were discovered in the trunk. It's just so sick. Twenty-two-year-old Belinda Hutchins disappeared in 72. Belinda and Gerard had briefly dated before her disappearance. An address book belonging to Belinda was found in his house. In 2022, remains were identified as belonging to 15-year-old Susan Poole who had disappeared in 1972 and her skeletal remains were to. discovered in 74, but it took nearly half a century for DNA testing to confirm who this was and give Susan her name back. She was discovered tied to a tree matching Gerard's pattern, so it made sense that she was one of his victims. And Susan's mother, who was in her 90s, was still alive to receive the closure when they found out. At least that.

Several of Gerard's suspected victims were children even younger than Susan Poole. For example, an eight-year-old girl named Wendy Brown, Steve. Stevenson and her nine-year-old friend Peggy met each other at Pompano Beach. They spent the day playing together, becoming best, like, fast friends. You know when you meet someone as a kid and you're just like clicked instantly? Yeah. Yeah, well, they became fast friends that day at the beach. At 1 p.m., they walked to the parking lot for ice cream.

An employee would later report that a man purchased cigarettes for himself and purchased ice cream for the two little girls. Wendy and Peggy were never seen again. Wow. It was suspected that they drowned, but that was ruled out eventually. And early on, Gerard denied that he killed the girls, but he confessed to the murders eventually in a letter that he wrote in 1989. Wow. Okay. Peggy and Wendy remain missing. More disappearances and murders of women and girls have been linked to Gerard Schaefer, and this is for sure not an exhaustive list. It's just some like very clear one connections we have okay nancy ellen trotter and paula sue wells are the only known survivors wow gerard chafer targeted gerard maintained that he abducted the women to teach them a

lesson because he was concerned for their safety and i want everyone to just take that sentence hold that and when somebody says something like that to you really feel into is that true um or does this not feel safe because you can really disarm someone with that kind of bullshit. I'm just concerned for your safety. Yeah, I've heard that before. Jesus Christ. So it is assumed that Gerard, of course, planned to kill both women that day but failed. And, you know, we don't have proof of that, but I have enough proof to decide that for myself.

I've decided for myself also. Correct. Thank you. Despite performing acts of extreme ingenuity, bravery, and physical strength, Nancy just said she felt lucky about escaping the whole thing. And I imagine in that state you're probably dissociated and like just surviving, but you know, you deserve, she deserves all the props and I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, yeah, blown away. Very proud of her. I mean, that's, that's, that's huge to survive something like that. So that's that. And now I have to go lift weights.

At least you've got like, you're all like, you've got a reason to be angry and, you know, I know. She's going to be like, what's this weird vibe you've brought to the table? today. Let me tell you. Yeah. Let me tell you. Boy, well, at least someone survived. I don't fucking know.

I don't know how to end that. That's great. That's great. That's great. Sorry. Great. Sorry. For her.

Yeah. I'm happy that they survived. And I'm sorry about all the horrible stuff that happened. And thanks for listening to our podcast. Sorry if we bum you out. We love you a lot, though. We do. And hopefully everyone's, everyone's having a good, whenever this comes out,

hope you're having a good one of those, a good, a good, week of a month and we'll see you next time to horrify you with even worse. Is that a good way to end this? I think it's perfect. Okay. And that's why we drink.