And That's Why We Drink - E489 Cartwheel Trauma and an Oenophile Ghost

Episode Date: July 12, 2026

Tally Ho everyone! Episode 489 is here! This week Em takes us to Delaware for the history of the haunted Woodburn Mansion and its wine loving ghosts. Then Christine covers the story of Bella in the Wych Elm, an unsolved mystery she’s been wanting to cover for years. And if any of our future nurses are listening, give it a play for us! …and that’s why we drink!Photo Links:Original Bella in the Wych Elm GraffitiFacial Reconstruction of BellaWant to listen ad-free? Join our Certified Yapper tier for $10/month on Patreon! Ad-free episodes starting at E469 at: http://patreon.com/ATWWDPodcast !Catch our bonus Yappy Hour intermissions on Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3L28lDw or subscribe on Patreon!___________________Find Angry Orchard near you at https://angryorchard.com and use the cider locator. Please drink responsibly.Save time and meet great candidates sooner with ZipRecruiter—try it for FREE at https://ziprecruiter.com/drink .Let Rocket Money help you reach your financial goals faster—join at https://RocketMoney.com/DRINK .Go to https://zenni.com/podcast and use code PODCAST15 for 15% off your first order.Get 50% off your order at https://DailyLook.com with code DRINKGet the Flamingo Starter Set for just $7 at https://www.shopflamingo.com/DRINK . For a limited time, this set includes the Flamingo Original Razor, one 5-blade cartridge, a 1oz Foaming Shave Gel, and a shower holder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Learn more at Accenture.com slash Spotify. Okay, we're starting over. Take two. Welcome to it. That's why we drink. Take one was just too silly for your ears. It would be illegal. And so we said we have to act that they're not ready.

I'm like wrapped in my lucky cocoon, my chrysalis. I was going to say you really like are manifesting to say that only good things come to gray. Although a lot of those horseshoes are upside down. Hold on. Yeah. Just do it like a constant like be that girl on the beach that does. cartwheels over and over and over and over and it should all stay full.

Do you know what happened to me at the Jiu Jitsu Gym? Show me. I won't be showing you. I won't be showing you. What happened? I was told to do a cartwheel. Ew. I would.

I would cancel. And by the way, that would have been exactly the reaction I gave them to. I'd be like, oh, I'm already sweating. And I did. And I was like, no. And then they were like, yes. they just and was this like a litmus test of like mind over matter like you can do it if I think I don't know I think it was just like I was being a little bitch and they were like just fucking do a cartwheel like stop it and I was like I can't I'd be like that's actually ablest I like literally you're acting like I have muscles in my arms and I was not gifted that I was like I'm not doing this okay then I realized I brought it up to my brother and I was like I behaved really inappropriately I would have there's no other way I was like I reacted extremely extremely strangely when they asked you to do a cartwheel.

And my brother goes, well, of course. And I was like, why? And he's like, well, that's what happened to you when you were a kid? Like that exact thing. And I was like, what? And he goes, remember? He's just whipping out the trauma and you didn't even ask for it. I know. I was like, why do you remember this?

He's like, because mom made me go. We brought you to gymnastics. And you were the only one who couldn't do a pushup or a cartwheel. And so they had me. It was so embarrassing. They made all the kids sit down and watch. And then they like tried to make me do a pushup, but she put her hand and she's like, you have to lower your nose all the way to my hand.

Oh, Christine. And she made me do it in front of everybody. And then I just like failed so tremendously that everybody laughed. And then my mom overheard them calling me like, oh, these fat American kids nowadays. And my mom, you know, taking it upon herself to make it about her, went in and started screaming, like, we're never coming back here. We're not even American. she's a chubby German child.

Ha ha, ha, jokes on you. You're on top of it with the fat comment. Right, exactly. And so my brother said, oh, like, we witnessed all, like, all of us witness this. And I was like, oh, so when poor Skylie was like, hey, can you do a cartwheel? And I was like, why would you say that? I was like, oh, that's why I behaved. So I didn't actually react that way.

I actually said, um, no, thank you. And she said, okay, but it's like the next thing. And then just because I panicked, I did a cartwheel. And she's like, great job. I mean, it is incredible what adrenaline will do. That is the equivalent of lifting a bus off a child. That's, you've proven it works.

By the way, she said, great job. I probably, like, did this. I probably, like, hopped over by,

like, a foot. I bet the assignment was you had to cartwheel three times and she went, one was enough. I've seen what I've needed to see. And she's like, is there like an even more fundamental class that Christine could take where it's like, you know,

don't worry. We're not all like staring at it. We're not going to gossip about it. It's just, I just, I've like got, I got so fucking triggered by it that I was like, what's wrong with me? And my brother's like, well, you were once made to cartwheel and do pushups in front of like 12 children who laughed at you.

And I went, yeah, that'll probably do it. That'll probably settle somewhere deep in there. You know, the only memory I have of any gymnastics was actually loving gymnastics. And then I don't know what the fuck happened because you would think my parents would like want to encourage my interest in sports. But like when I was a little kid and by the way, I say when I was a little kid, but if I were to start it up right now, I wouldn't need the exact same. help of like all of those like oversized like triangle shaped pillows that like I'll help you like learn how to fall backwards and not hurt yourself and stuff. Yes. Yes. But I remember getting to a point where I was literally leaping over stuff in a flip. I remember this. What? But maybe it's actually from another life

now that I'm saying it out loud. Maybe it actually just like a Russian gymnast and it was just like your passion. Yeah. And you got a glimmer of it as like a little, a little, a little little kit, just a glimmer of it, and then it just faded. And all, all honesty, it's as real to me as the memory of, like, flying around my kitchen when I would fall asleep at night. So maybe, that's real. That did happen. I know it happened. With a fervent confidence, I know it happened. Oh, so you're saying it could be like a real memory from a from a past. I know it existed some time in the universe, but I don't know if it was this timeline or another. Hey, may I offer one suggestion? Could it be that at some point you were astro projecting around your kitchen? You went, I know, I'll

stop by the gymnastics studio. As I was flying, I halted, I halted in midair and just did a little flip and then kept it moving. It could be. Like, I mean, it could be. Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, um, I remember having fun, even if it was just a dream, but I, I'm proud of you for doing a, I could never do a cartwheel. I'll tell you, I could flip in the air and fly in the sky, but I could never. I like blacked out the incident.

I did. I don't recall what happened. Everyone said, nice and moved on. And I was so sweaty that I like couldn't function. Um, Yeah, I need so much therapy. I would feel like if I were in the room and saw you do it, I'd feel like I was on the chopping block.

Because I'm like, thank God they picked her because like it could have been me, you know. Oh my God, everyone else was just running around doing cartwheels. I'm like, is this a thing we do here? Yeah, why is everyone acting like we haven't, we should have discussed this prior. I should have known this going in. I have, should have signed a waiver because I'm way too delicate for this fucking sport. Not really. I just, I just am too mentally I need to get my shit together, you know?

Well, okay. So do you don't have any recollection of your. actual like a like how well it went the quality of the cartwheel well i tried it again the next day because i couldn't really believe my own memory incident and blaze said that was pretty good and i went maybe you're a gymnast fucking okay fucking okay i'll take it maybe my mom and that gym teacher really just halted what could have been maybe we were both meant to be gymnasts and then when i got all screwed up in the head the universe was like er alternate plans m and christina are be podcasters instead. So then you got pulled out of your gymnastics because I showed up and

did one class and they were like, Christine's never going to fucking live up to this. I feel like the universe was like, no, no, Simone Biles needs this. So like let's move you somewhere else. Yeah, please get rid of these fucking clowns. You know, in another world, Simone is the podcaster. Yeah. And that should be the world, I think. Maybe she'd do both, you know. But anyway, we're here. I'm alive. I did a cartwheel allegedly. Is there a reason why you drink? Is that why you drink? Well, right before we recorded, you and I both heard some sort of footsteps come in from above me, but that's the roof. So I'm like, there must be an animal up there. Santa.

Satan. I don't know. It could be either one. But it sounded almost in the walls, but not. But I got to say, well, sounded like footsteps. So I actually thought maybe Blaze had like gone into the crawl space. And so then I called for him. Something he does.

Like for five? No. No. And so I was like, What is that? But Gio's face was like this too. And I was like, well, he sleeps up here. So if he's not used to the sound, then like I don't feel great about that. So I couldn't find the source of it. But it was right here kind of in my visit. You just got to hope. You just got a hope. And so we'll wait and see. But if you hear a loud like, if I jump out of my skin and like you hear banging sounds, it's a squirrel. Are all of your cats accounted for? No. And because juniper is as a frequent flyer up there, right? He's a menace. You know, I've never heard him get up there, but I wouldn't put it past him. He goes outside on the roof.

I mean, that could have been what... Oh, you did get laggy just now. Fuck. Maybe it is a ghost. I don't know. Juniper just cut the red wire on the roof. Oh, my God, he chewed it up for sure. I think you're good now.

Okay. Well, my apologies for whatever's about to happen. Sounds like someone's totally not breaking again. It's probably Christmas in July. Let's just go with that. Yes, I love that. Why do you drink, by the way? Oh, I don't know.

I feel like a bruise again this week. Oh. It's just I'm about to, I was just saying Christine off air. I'm about to do a lot of traveling. And I think I'm just mentally prepared for like the weight of the travel where like I'm happy to, I'll be happy once I get to my destinations. But like I haven't packed in a while. So I'm a little out of practice. on, back when we were on tour, I was just like so used to living out of a suitcase.

It's bizarre. It's a weird feeling to have to pack now. I just, I feel like it was such a muscle memory for a while that I didn't have to think about it. But now it's back to being a task. And so, and it's a long, I'm going to be gone for like at least two weeks. One of them's a wedding. One of them requires a rented tucks. But then I'm also kind of panicking about like, well, if I'm about to leave and I need the

rented tucks a certain time. I need the rentals with travel. It needs to be delivered to another location and will it get there on time. And if it doesn't, should I bring a backup something? You got to ship it back and all that. It's just, it will, it's just a silly time with a lot of to-dos, lists of to-dos. Also, I told you about the recipe book I'm working on. No?

I don't think so. Did you? I don't know. I don't know anymore. Remind me, remind me. I found a bunch of old family recipes, but when I say a bunch, I mean like 300. Oh my God. Where?

I've talked about this somewhere. I know you've talked about this. I feel like, is this like you've collected them? I can't say exactly where because I went searching through a filing cabinet when it was in my business. Oh, I see. Okay. Yeah. So I don't know who listens.

But I, and by the way, I don't feel bad about that. God knows my heart. So I. Okay. And he's listening. We know that. I mean, she. Yeah.

They are somewhere. And they didn't stop me, by the way. If God is all powerful. didn't strike me dead. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. I think he wanted this. So I think that's a good sign.

And by the way, when I went snooping through a filing cabinet, it was a thousand percent for family stuff. It wasn't like, oh, how much, how many things are they hiding? I wasn't going for that. How many were they hiding, though? I, as we know, I'd like to try to collect all the family stuff. And how many were they hiding? Only, only the recipes. And I don't even think they were hiding it.

It just never came up. And so you didn't find any ancillary secret, any collateral secrets. No. When I saw the recipes, I stopped my search and I went jackpot. This is the kind of shit I was looking for. Bummer. Okay. So I wasn't looking for anything juicy. Except that steak recipe. And I ended. Three of them. I found three of them. I found three steak recipes. I basically I, anyway, I'm trying. I'll just go get to the good part. So I ended up taking pictures of everything and then putting all the recipes. back where I found them. And then repelling out of the room on a fucking, what are you doing?

You're like in oceans one and it's just M. Realistically, I, there is no doubt in my mind, the house I was at. They would have absolutely let me take all the pictures I wanted. I just felt guilty once I found it that I had been looking at all. And so I didn't know how to tell them that I found them at period. Yeah, you're like, well, now I found them. And I can't tell you how. Yeah.

I just feel bad. The guilt has happened. I just feel because I was snooping but with good intentions, but still snooping, you know what I mean? So I feel lucky about it. But didn't stop me from taking a picture of all the recipes because then what if they ends up somewhere else or with a different family member? Now I'm not asking for it. It's for the highest good. God knew. I, for the sake of ancestry, it was good because you know what?

Now all those recipes aren't just going to be in a filing cabinet. They're safe hands. So I'm transcribing them for myself. Oh, I love that. And yeah, it was, anyway, I just, I knew that there was like family stuff in the room. And I was like, oh, I just want to like see if I can find anything. And I found something. And then I, and I, so I'm not doing anything with it except just like, like, I just wanted a copy for myself. And I didn't want to like say, like, let me take all this from your home. And so I just, I feel like I did the most ethical,

the ethical way about it as possible. You had like a big potato sack with a dollar sign written on it. And you just put all the recipes in that and you threw it over your shoulder like an burglar and like walked out. Yeah. No. And by the way, my snooping, I will say was like, I literally saw a one of the drawers was already open. And so I, like, I, I'm not saying, and that's why I look through it. I'm just saying, like, the level of my snooping, it's not like I spent all night,

like, in that room. It really happened where like there was a filing cabinet that was open. And I was just going to close her for them. And literally right there, it said recipes. We've all snooped. We have all snooped. and we've all, we've all had only the best intentions, right guys? All of us.

I mean, I'm saying what I did is not is not 10 out of 10. But I will say it was not like a long hunt for anything. Like I really stumbled upon it and went, well, that works. That's great. Are you starting to worry this person listens? I feel like you're backtracking. I feel like now you're like, oh, I do. Am I?

I really am. That is the honest truth. But I also, I don't think they're you listen. But I don't think they're going to care or listen. I think getting family recipes is a very noble quote. Sorry, my computer just threw itself off of the stand. The computer disagrees with this. Cool, cool, cool.

Anyway, the reason I drink is traveling and also the, I did not realize just how many recipes there were. And some of them are in like different languages, which is crazy. Cool. It's very cool. And it's like they're handwritten. They're all handwritten. So anyway, that was. That's fun, though.

It was very cool to see. But yeah. Anyway, so I'm just, I just. got a lot of projects, uh, on my desk at the moment. Just came across your desk. It just came across my desk. And I'm drinking just like a, a chill little tea, just a little black tea. What are you drinking?

Well, I would be drinking my nice morning jolt. What happened? But it had, but it arrived. It arrived. Uh, has it arrived? Oh, a few minutes ago. But it took forever to get here. So that's probably blazes problem when he gets home.

Okay. Can you bring me? Is that your, that's your brown drink with the blue straw? Is it? Yes. Hey, you, one other reason why I drink? Yes. It's a gross one.

Tell me. I think I have contracted. I'm so embarrassed. I'm so embarrassed. A nail fungus. Oh, no. I've never had that before. Don't be embarrassed.

I just never had it before. And it sounds like something that like, like, someone like many generations higher than me would get like it feels like a bunion does that help well it's just and i always notice that this one toenail was just a little discolored and now it's like a bit noticeable and so i'm like but i've heard i i mean i'm going to go to an actual doctor everybody but i have been obviously also looking up like home remedies and everyone is like soak your foot in listerine and yellow listerine listerine apparently yellow listerine has like that'll match that's because it'll match the rest of your foot

I've never had anything like this. And I'm like, is my nail going to fall off or something? Like, what happens? Have you done any like, your nails not got fault? Well, my brother. Okay. I can't even actually hear about it. Oh my God. His nail fell off. But it was because he slammed his foot in. He was wearing, he was going barefoot, walking barefoot into a blockbuster video. Well, that was kind of, I'm not saying he asked for it. I'm just saying. Thank you. That's what I said. Just saying the, the, the toe was there. Yeah. And we did get dude, dude wears my car that evening. So it, you know, it ended up being fine. fine. He should have said, dude, where's my toenail? That's what the, should have made a sequel. He may have, and I probably didn't laugh. Anyway, I am, I think a doctor or visit ought to happen soon. So I'm just a little paranoid about it. And I'm a little freaked out. I'm skeved out by it because I've never like had any feet problems before. And you know how I feel about nails. Yeah, yeah, I know. But as long as you get it looked at soon, like someone will, they'll be like an easy fix.

I hope so. Anyway. It'll be easy. Those are, that's my top three this week, folks. No one asked. Blaze said he would bring you my smoothie slash coffee. It's sort of like a mixture of both when he gets home. He said, but it might be a while. So probably halfway through your story, I'm going to get like completely. Yeah.

So just a heads up. Is it a smoothie or a while? So it's like a cold brew smoothie thing. So it's like a chocolate and coconut and stuff, but it has like coffee in it. Yeah. Like a, yes. And it has like blended. It's like a blended coffee type thing.

Yeah. precious, precious. It is. wish many good tastes for your mouth. Thank you so much. This episode is brought to you by Angry Orchard Hard Cider, and they have done us the kindness of sending us some angry orchard. And so what we're going to do today is tell you some of the gripes that we have in life,

but we are going to use this as a lovely baton where I can air my grievances. And then I'm going to pass it over Christine through the power of technology. That's right. Our backward, back rooms, liminal space. We have a mini fridge back there. Yeah. We have a mini fridge in the back rooms. And so M's going to go pop one.

And by the way, angry orchard sent us more than one angry orchard to be clear. But it's way more fun to like pass the baton. It's very fun. So I'm going to go first. One of the things that gets me angry these days, I have to take hang to the vet. He's doing the boot scoot at the dog park lately. And I'm not loving what I see or smell. It's pretty disgusting.

And also I have to go to the doctor myself. My feet are not acting right these days. I don't know how old I am. I feel like I'm a thousand. We're falling apart. Falling apart. I just don't like it anymore. Remember when we started the show?

We were 20 F and four. We were 20 F and four. You know, it's incredible. We had just as much to complain about that then as we do now. That's exactly right. Well, so today I complain that I'm not 24 anymore, but my dog's acting like he's 24 in dog gear. So, all right, I'm going to pass it to you now, Christine. This is your turn.

Thank you. Give it a reach. And what are you? And what are you angry about today that the number one hard cider in the country can can heal, can help you aid from? Thank you so much for asking. You know, I got my nose done as I can show you as I show up this crisp refreshing cider. And I sat down and the lady looked at my hand and just said, what happened? And I was like, excuse me.

I think they look evil. And then she said, that'll be two extra dollars too. And I was like, I don't know. Anyway, I didn't get angry. I got orchard. It really is a staple at our house, especially when we have game nights, things like that. So, you know, it's called the payment of my pride getting wounded and also the bunion on my foot. So I'm also old. Sorry, Angry Orchard. We're also just kind of old. Here you go.

Yeah. Oh, thank you. Hang on. Thank you. Well, anyway, it's nice to air our grievances, but also I'm sure you've got some grievances, but you don't have to get angry. You can get Orchard. Angry Orchard is made with two real apples in every cider, which is why it has a real, fresh apple flavor instead of being overly sugary. It's gluten-free. It's crisp, bold, refreshing, as Christina said, and tried. And it's really helped me make some friends to the dog park as well. Yeah, I love that. Don't get angry. Get Orchard near you. Visit Angry Orchard.com and use a cider locator to find Angry Orchard near you, maybe in our liminal fridge. Maybe in someone's trunk at the dog park. I don't know. Could be. Angry Orchard Cider Company LLC. Angry Orchard is a hard cider with other natural flavors.

Please drink responsibly. There's one thing I don't like at all in this world, and it is being inconvenienced. I cannot stand it. If there is ever an opportunity to multitask, I will do it. I am just always trying to make as much free time for myself as possible. You know, we all have our own time saving hacks for everyday life, but if you're a business owner, how can you save time hiring? And that is with ZipRecruiter.

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If you told me, hey, meeting Eva in the same day that you put out a search for her, that was actually, you actually wasted your time because you could have actually found her even earlier in that same day. I'd have been like, oh my God, that's incredible. ZipRecruiter is always 10 out of 10. We will always sing their praises. And right now you can try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash drink. Save time and meet great candidates sooner with ZipRecruiter.

Four out of five employers, including us, who posts on ZipRecruiter, get a quality candidate within the first day. So try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash drink. that ZipRecruiter.com slash drink, meet your match on ZipRecruiter. Okay, I have a story for you today, Christine, and you have heard it before because it was covered in our second book.

Oh my goodness. Okay. I just know you don't remember a single thing that I'm about to say. That's fine. And by the way, neither do I. Because we were supposed to record a while back, and so these notes are also new to my eyes, which I love when that happens

because then we get to explore together. It's like, wow, what? Who knew? apparently I did five days ago but yeah who could have known I know it's crazy but I will say that proves though I know we say this all the time but like we both wrote and read our book at least twice because we had to write it and read it and read it allowed for the audible and read put our commentary so it's like if I can forget that like please please understand and my brain it cannot hold so much I did use my my own book as a reference which is interesting that's a weird one yeah but like you just said it is odd one it's the reference and also you wrote it and also you wrote it and also you don't remember it. So it really does feel like a you better source my work accurately because I'm going to sue you otherwise. Uh, your blurb does show up. Don't worry. Hell yeah. Okay. So this is Woodburn Mansion. Oh. Sounds familiar. It does sound familiar. But I don't even know if that's true anymore because I feel like everything. And I'm not trying to like poo poo my own stories. But you

you could tell me that was from like Schitt's Creek and I'd be like, oh, okay. Well, I was going to say everything is either like a hotel or a manor. Like a manor. Like wood. And Woodbury. Just feels very... It's always an old last name. And I... That's not to say like all of my stories sound exactly the same. But, you know, when it comes to like buildings that have stood the test of time long enough to become haunted, they are kind of all... They do fall into very similar categories.

Right. Exactly. So I don't know if you have, if it actually does remind you of anything or it just sounds haunted. Hmm. You want to take a stab in the world of where it is? Is it in Georgia? That's a close. guess it's in Delaware.

I really believed you. Hey, East Coast, you were right? Same time zone. Same time zone. Same time zone. It's in Dover, Delaware. Okay. Which I feel like I wanted to cover the Dover demon for our book.

But isn't Dover, is it like Dover, Massachusetts or something that the Dover demons in? Oh, didn't you write that in the book? I must have. I don't know. Listen, don't ask me to do a book report on this. Right, right, right, right. Why don't even say this? Okay, so Dover, Delaware, it's a mansion from 1790. It was on the National Register of Historic Places in 1972. And since the 60s, since 1965, but just to make it easier on your brain. Since the 60s, it has been the home of the sitting governor. So if you're the governor of Delaware, or yeah, of Delaware, you get to live here. Is this the one with the ice cream? Maybe. No. I don't know. I don't remember the story anymore.

Okay, okay, okay. What do you mean? The Joe Biden ice cream? Oh, no, I don't know what's happening here. Oh, okay, good. Because you covered a story in Delaware and they had like Joe Biden themed ice cream or something. Fine. Yeah, and then we read the recipes of it.

So I was like, uh-oh, I hope we're not doing the same story again. No, we are not. Okay, gotcha. Would love to hear that though, because once again, I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. That was a good one. That sounds great. That sounds like I really nailed that episode. Okay.

I love when I, there's a governor's house. In Virginia, there was a mayor's house that I used to work next to when I did my segueing and my ghost sunning. And it was like, if you became mayor of Yorktown, then you got to live in the house. I don't know if that's still the case, but I remember always thinking like, I can't imagine moving into a house and knowing that in four years or how, whatever the term is. It's kind of weird.

Yeah. Well, it's probably like furnished and stuff for you. I would hope so. Can you imagine if it's like now buy a shitload of furniture on your main? mayor salary. My Faberjeet eggs. Well, the mayor of course has Faberjeet egg. Honestly, if he doesn't outtrust him with our towns. Yeah. Oh, true. I only have my mayor. And I'll tell you, Mayor Max, he is, he loves an egg. I'm sure. He loves his bad boys. So this is where the governor sits. Um, it's where also where he sleeps and stands. I don't know why we call it the,

right? Okay, whatever. And the fun fact about, he does cartwheels sometimes. Probably. It could be. A fun fact about this, which I didn't know I found out from our book, thank you past me, is that this house also has a hedge maze in the garden. And then, of course, my blurb from the book involved The Shining, where I'm like, did we not see this coming? This is an old house with the hedging maze. I remember being mad that you already did the blurb about the Shining because I was like, well, that was my perfect entry point.

Honestly, in hindsight, I wish I could tell you, like, you should just delete my fucking name. Like, I wouldn't have known. I should have. I wouldn't have known which one of us. wrote it. Too bad. I've such an integrity. That's very nice of you.

I would have been like, just steal my line, please. No, like Charlie would be like, who the fuck is deleting? Christine, I see what you're doing.

Who's actually copying their own avatars into the middle of? I literally see Christine in there in the Google dot movie shit around. So this house was built in 1790. It was built by Charles Hilliard the third. Mm-hmm. And he bought the land. land. Fun fact. I know you love a number conversion. He bought the land for $110 and $17.90. Which was- What a bargain.

$4,000 today. I just feel like that math can't even equate because it's just like 17-9. Like, what do you even, money doesn't even mean the same thing probably. Also, like over 200 years later and it's only like four times. But like who back then had $110. You know what I mean? So it's like probably nobody. I don't remember math. I hear I hear someone judging me for how bad that math was. Please don't laugh. I think it was actually really spot on. Thank you. But I'm with you.

It feels like it should not, if it should be more or. So anyway, he bought it for the equivalent of $4,000. I think it's shocking because in today's world, I couldn't buy a house for $4,000. So I'm like how, how did you do that kind of thing today?

Anyway, so he built it in 1790. And when he died, his daughter's family inherited it. So then that's the second generation of Hilliards. they ended up renting it out. This is actually a very fun fact to me and nobody else. They rented it out to a governor, and this was in the 1820s, but this was before it ever

became like the house that the governor lived in. Oh, that's cool. This is something only like the person running the tour at the museum would giggle about and every kid on the field trip's like, I don't fucking care at all about this information. But I think it's a fun fact that like, even though this is now the governor's house, when they started that system, whoever the first governor was to live there still wasn't the first governor to live there. Does that make sense? Still wasn't the first governor?

Like years later, they decided that governors would be living there, but that's still, but there were governors who- Because the other guy had stayed there before. Yeah. Oh, because he rented it out. Okay, gotcha. He had lived there, just not officially. Right. So that in the 1820s, the first governor to live there, although it was not technically the governor's house and would not be for a while. Ah, okay. The first governor that lived there, fun fact, was, Jacob Stout. And so he lived there before it was even the governor's house. And throughout the decades, it did switch hands many times to people who were not the governor until 1965.

And that's when the state said, actually the governor should live here. I guess they're like, that Jacob Stout had a good idea. I miss those good old days when Jacob lived here. Big Jake, he fucking loved this house. He would want other governors here. He always had a keg tapped in the backyard. A guy. What a guy.

I love how sensitive all of the governors who are obviously men. They all love a Faberger. Love a Faberge. They just don't like to admit it. They don't tell you that's what's going on in male circles. That's right. Another fun fact. The first governor to live there 100 years later when it was the governor's house,

his name was Governor Charles Terry. Okay. You'll never hear his name again, but I thought you'd like to know. Okay. I thank you. Another Chuck, another Charles. Yes, that's exactly right. So I'll bullet point it. So in 1790, Charles, Charles Hilliard had it, his daughter inherited it. She then gave it to the governor, who was the first person to rent it out from her. Over time, it then ends up becoming the governor's house. So in between Governor Jacob Stout having it and it officially becoming a governor's house, one of the people who lived there was a family called. the Bates. Of all names.

Of all names. They also were renters from the Hilliards. So this was pretty early on in the house's history. The Bates then ended up buying the house and then they sold it. You don't have to remember all these names, but their history is important, but you don't have to remember names. I'll just, I'll keep summarizing. Governor Sout had it.

Then the Bates had it. The Bates ended up buying the house and selling it to a guy and named Daniel Cowgirl. And Daniel, he was a Quaker and an abolitionist. He would actually use the house to hide enslaved people here as part of the Underground Railroad. Oh, wow. And although he helped enslaved people escape here, the mansion was, of course,

also previously used to enslave people. Yeah, right, sure. So, or at least, I don't know if this was actually like a working like plantation or anything, but it was used by traitors of enslaved people. So it did not have the world's best history at all. Daniel Calgill was trying to just save that history one day at a time, trying to reverse it. And during renovations, they did find in the cellar chains and shackles that were bolted to the walls, which I think confirmed. Because I think people talked about it because, of course, we tried to erase that history.

And people were like, I think this used to be involved in the enslavement of people in some. way and then they found these chains and shackles and it kind of confirmed it for people. Jesus. Okay. So when Daniel Calgoe lives here, Quaker and abolitionist and he's helping with Underground Railroad, he would regularly scare off these Southern Raiders who were looking for people who ran away and they'd come to the house and be like, is anyone hiding here? And Daniel would go, no, get off my fucking property.

Meanwhile, many people are hiding there. Well, one night, the Raiders come to his house and he, the story goes that he scared them off. I don't know if it was that he scared them off or just told him to leave, but one of these raiders was in his tree. I'm assuming to get like an aerial view of the property to see if anyone was hiding. And on his way out, whether it's because he was scared or just told to leave, he slipped out of a tree. He slipped out of the tree. And his head got stuck in a hole in the tree. And he ended up strangling himself to death. My blurb in the book, whoa.

My blurb in the book from here was, um, good for her, which was a quote from Lucille Bluth. That he strangled himself to death. Oh, good for her. Yeah. Oh, my God. Lucille Bluth. Yeah. Whoa.

Okay. Whoa. Whoa. Oh, whoa. So, that's just quite a. That's one, that's one death that turns into a haunting later is that there was a sub. And like, I mean, I'm not trying to like be like,

who people died, but also like you're a Southern Raider trying to like interrupt people. Yeah, but I don't want that ghost near me either, you know, like get off my property. Like, I don't want that ghost around. At least he's in the tree. You know what I mean? Like, at least like he's not like in your house. I sure hope not. So that's one of the major stories of what happened here.

Another one is that before Daniel Calgill lived there, they remember he bought it from the Bates family. So the Bates family, they lived there in the 1820s and they have the first. ghost on record from the 1820s. Like the ghost story is from the 1820s. So the Bates were living here. This is Charles Hilliard's daughter and her husband. Her husband, by the way, here's like his quick little resume. He was a doctor, merchant, lawyer, and a senator.

And I'm like, okay, go to bed. Same. Fucking relax. It was probably like $2 to get your fucking license back then. Yeah, you had to pass like a five multiple choice questionnaire to be a doctor. And they'd be like, which, what is good for? this cocaine? Yes.

It is blood seeping out of you good or bad. Leaches. We love them. Yes. A traveling minister was staying with them. This traveling minister, his name was Lorenzo.

And he was staying in the house. He was going to go downstairs and have breakfast with the bates. And one morning, on his way down, he meets a man on the stairs. and when the bait I guess I don't know if they spoke to each other or anything like that but they definitely

interacted in some way and when Lorenzo finishes going downstairs it gets the dining room they're setting up for breakfast and the baits asked him to pray before they eat and Lorenzo was like oh should I wait for the other guy who I just saw on the stairs and they're like who the fuck are you talking about and he basically

described the guy he just saw he rude said he was an outdated clothing that he had a wig, a roughly puffy shirt. He had britches. And I guess after enough description, Mrs. Bates realized that that was her father, Charles Hilliard, the third. And how dare you call his clothing outdated?

Literally, what I have next is your blurb from the book, which was, oh, a man with outdated fashion sense, that must be my father. Oh, no, because I was trying to pretend like that. No, I was pretending that lady said it. Oh. I was like, what? I love that we wrote a whole fucking book and I didn't know until years later.

No, I think I was saying like, she was like, oh, that's, oh, the frilly, the frilly britches. Oh, that's my dad. I literally took it as like you being like, oh, that must be my father. I clearly, I should have, no, no, no. My dad loves a, I mean, he does love a frilly, whatever, but he's more. He's pretty, he's not. He strikes me as a man who would own a wig and britches and I don't know why. True.

Yeah, you never know with that one. But, no, I was, yeah, I was trying to kind of make a joke about that lady being like, oh, that's just my father with his curly old fashion clothing. I love that either way, it lands. Thank you. You very rarely get a double joke. I guess not. I mean, people in general, not just, not just you.

But that's, okay, well, I'm, hey, I learned something. Listen, we're still learning. Our own fucking book. congratulations us so since then people still spot Charles

and his his wig and his bridges on the stairs and also in the hall I think the upstairs hall was specifically but in the hall near the stairs

so I guess they something pivotal happened in that moment where he was in his own like foyer yeah one former resident said that he

that Charles Hilliard passed by him on the stairs multiple times others checked the stairs or other people who ended up living there would regularly check the stairs before using them

because they were afraid to actually run into him. But that one former resident who said he would pass by him on the stairs all the time is I'm like, how do you just get used to seeing a man you know is dead? What do you mean? It's so weird. I wonder if like you just seem out of the corner of your eye and you're like, whoa, I don't know. I guess. But I mean, it sounds like he was just, at least for the first guy, Lorenzo,

he was like, that's a straight up man. And we made eye contact and he just stood there long enough for me to not realize. he wasn't a real person. Yeah. You know if we were kids that lived in that house, we'd be like, no, no, no, people see him. And I would just camp out on those stairs. Oh, we would be setting booby traps. Of course.

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Join at RocketMoney.com slash drink. That's rocketmoney.com slash drink. Rocketmoney.com slash drink. So those are the two, I haven't gotten to, like all that they haunts or all that they do. But so the first two stories are the Southern Raider and the tree. Then we've got Charles Hilliard on the stairs.

Another ghost who's there loves wine, which is like, this is so interesting. It's literally officially documented in security reports, this ghost that loves wine. Security reports. Oh, that's for me too. There are certainly security reports out there that have documented how much I love wine. I'm telling. I mean, like, I'm sure. sure in the first draft of our book, it was like, I just made a bunch of Christine jokes.

I'm sure there was plenty of Christine wine. They were these good graphics where they would spill wine all over the pages. I was like, I never knew if that was my wine that I still. It's really perfect or like just a graphic. The best part about our book was if you're drinking wine while you read it and you spill wine on it, we've pre-durried it for you so you don't have to feel bad. I wanted it to be a coaster because like you always need a coaster. You know, and this one already has rings on it. The dream is if we made our book out of cork. And then every page was a coaster. Well, we also had dreams

of making the book a Ouija board. So we've had a lot of dreams about what we could do with this fucking book. In another lifetime, maybe. The best we could do is spill stuff on it. So, the ghost who loves wine. By the way, our homegirl is

this woman. She's, oh, she was governor and lived there for eight years. Her name's Ruth Anne Minner. not Minner or minor Governor Minner Okay lived in this house for eight years

She did an interview in 2004 And I don't know if it was fully Exactly about the ghosts Or like about her fucking policies But the ghosts were heavily mentioned in this interview Oh okay And she said the ghosts are absolutely real Especially this fucking guy who loves wine

She was like this guy Beyond exists Like this is a very real ghost So it might be Charles Hilliard. It might be, there's another ghost that people see in a revolutionary war uniform. So it might be him. They're all drunks. Who knows? All luscious. All lushes. But she made it clear. If the wine is left out in this house, it will be drank by someone who is not alive. It, like, you, there is a leak and they are drinking it up. That is bizarre.

Some residents have intentionally left wine out, which I love that there's just like, governor after governor after governor, it's become a thing where they're all trying to booby trap these ghosts with wine in the same house. Seriously, they're like, I guess I'll appease you. It's like, well, the last one said that you like wine, so I guess I'll also put wine out because, you know, every single one of them has heard the rumors. And when they finally become governor and get to move in, they're like, first thing on the agenda is fine, this fucking ghost. You know they sent their assistant to to Wawa or whatever to get like a box of wine. and be like just to keep the supply coming. I just like, it's so funny to me just that there's just politicians who were just

lining up to live in this house. And probably at least one of them was, it was mainly, it's like, I only want to live in the house to see if this ghost were, but do you think any of them were like, I'm not going to do that. And then the ghost was like, some fucking boring one maybe. I don't know. Or it was like, here's bourbon. And the ghost's like, I don't want bourbon.

Yeah, they tried to put a real spin on it. Yeah. Some residents have intentionally left wine out to try and catch the, ghost drinking it. I will, I'm going to ask you now that you are no longer a wine drinker, what is the new thing food or wine or anything, or food or drink or anything? If you were a ghost and someone to trap you with something, what's your thing now? Like, the people want to know, Christine.

It's just candy, I think. Candy? Like, I just love sugar now because it's like, I have so much sugar in my diet. And now it's like, oh, that's all gone. So now I just love like. Pino-N-M-A-M-A? Tropical skittles. Oh. I'm like in a very like chewy candy.

So like sour gummy worms and stuff like that. Okay. That's easy and cheap to try to catch you then. Oh, cheese. You didn't say cheese, but that's another one. You could do that. Okay. I know you love a charcutte.

I love a shark. That honestly, just do that. So you'd still be in the same circles as the wine drinkers, I imagine. You're just finally on my end of it where it's like everyone's drinking wine. I'm eating the salami. Yeah. And like I'll drink something. that I'm a mocktail this time.

Yeah. Which might I say, Christine, if you're looking for a mocktail, I am currently having a real fix with ginger beer and pineapple juice mixed together. Oh, that sounds nice. I'm not usually like a huge ginger beer person, but I feel like with pineapple that actually sounds very refreshing. I'll tell you, I also don't like ginger beer unless it's pineapple juice is involved. Okay.

And if you do a little squirt or a little couple like jalapeno seeds and it's sweet and spicy. Okay. Hey, I'm into this. Do we need to do? Oh my God. Oh my God. That sounds so good. Okay. So you would be gummy worms or cheese. Yeah. I don't know what I would be, but it'd have to be something carb heavy. Yeah. What about like a chicken pot pie? Like right. Like really heavy on the carbot.

Yeah. I'm already dead. I'm like just a stick of butter will probably do it. Get me a bread bowl. I'm already dead. Exactly. Put some mac and cheese in a bread bowl. Don't stop being ridiculous. So they would like leave wine out hoping to catch this ghost. If literally all the way to like, they would fill decanters and the whole decanter would be gone. Like the gaiter would still exist and it all the wine would be gone by morning. I just wonder like how many, is it one ghost?

Are they trying to share? Because I'm like, how much should I be leaving out? Like, do you want all this or is it like you have to drink however much is out? I don't know. Like are they have, is in the other realm are they having a bunch of like, are they partying? And it's like 20 people there. or is it someone like me with it, but instead of carbs, it's wine where it's like, well, I'm already dead. I might as well just be blasted out of my mind. Yeah, just keep it coming. I can't leave the house. So. Yeah. And also, like, if you're going to leave me wine, I'm not going to not accept your offer, you know? Right, right. Decanter, well, don't mind if I do. Again, I'm sure in early versions of this book, there were a lot of jokes about how, like, maybe it wasn't actually any ghost who was just like, just every governor was, like, sneaking way too much wine and blaming it on a ghost. probably said I was just living in the basement, although that's kind of spooky.

Probably. Like, Christine just comes out in the middle of the night. She heard there's free wine sometimes. Like every night, because everyone's trying to make the point. Yeah. Well, one resident would leave it to cancer filled at night just to test it and wake up in the morning and it would be gone. Ah! Um, it's a waste of wine. I was going to say, think of the, how much money just in the governor, the governor's budget is. Seriously. Just wine, wine, wine, wine for the ghost instead of like on like... Wine, wine, wine for the ghost. And then what?

Instead of social services or anything like important. Seriously. Well, the ghost, we have to prove the ghost is real first. He's the ghost. One, there's an apparition of a man and a wig. Again, might be Charles Hillier and might be another guy. He has... Maybe my dad.

It might be your father. And he has literally been caught by some people actually sneaking wine in the dining room. See? Oh my God. It's him. So it might be him. He's like, if you were all going to use my house, wine bottles have literally been found empty in the cellar that nobody has drank.

Oh, so he really is just a lush, I guess. He's just, I mean, he lives in that house and lets you know. I do wonder if he's, if wine bottles are empty, I would love to know the labels of which ones are empty. Which ones is he picking when he has a selection? Right. Does he like go for the, like, the really expensive? Does he know or does he just pick one?

You know, like, is he a wine? Or is he only picking ones that are like the year he was. was born or something. Right. Like, is he a snob or not? I don't know. And then I would do another test where I'd be like, okay, well, these are the labels that he was, he seemed to like. And I would put those out into cancer versus like, like, a random one. Remember when you didn't understand why you were a Virgo rising? That's why. Is that Virgo rising? You hear yourself right now. Like, I'm going to put this one here and this one here and then I'm going to test which one he likes it. It's like, well, I would like to see. I feel like to see. I feel like that would be so interesting to be like, does he keep going back for the same wine or? It is interesting. It just

makes you very Virgo to me. Good to know. I had no idea. So that's another ghost, the wine drinker. Then there's a ghost of a little girl. Maybe she's the wine drinker. I was going to say, could it be? Technically, she's like 300 years old.

She's legal to drink in my book. True. She's like, I'm dead again. Like, let me have some. She is seen in a red gingham dress. And she's most often by the garden and the reflecting pool outside and then disappears by the hedges. And I don't know if that means she fades away or like runs into the hedges and then you don't ever find her again.

Or like the Homer Simpson. Yes. Yes, exactly. She's also been seen in the mansion during parties, but apparently not like partying it up. She's more like standing in the corner and has like. Oh, like a little kid like watching a party or something. Yeah.

And she's also been seen or felt, sorry, tugging on people's clothing like to get their attention at the party. She's been seen a lot in the kitchen. This, I remember the governor, her interview about the ghost. This was in that interview. She's been seen a lot in the kitchen She's been seen in the middle of the day By tour guides and fades away moments later

After the tour guides are left alone with her in the kitchen People have seen her peeking around corners Of course horrifying People have heard her giggling in empty rooms And then people get EVPs of a little girl Saying things like play with me Like straight out of a horror movie Please

Again there's the man in a Revolutionary War uniform There is actually the ghost of The Traveling Minister who first saw Charles Hilliard's ghost, he is now also a ghost. He's like, I know where I'm headed. He's like, well, now I know it's possible. But he's seen in the library. And apparently he's like the least warm of the ghosts.

I guess people have said that they get a really like stern vibe from him. It's his fucking problem. I mean, I'd be stern too if I'm a traveling minister and I clearly didn't like make it to heaven. Like I'm just stuck in this fucking house. You are. Imagine traveling like just traveling for work. and you're in a hotel and somebody tells you when you die, you're going to be stuck

in this fucking place for the rest of your life. Take a look around. Yeah, take a look around. It's your fucking forever. God, I really, that makes me wonder. I'm like, all the places I've been. That's horrifying. Will I be visiting in the afterlife?

Yeah, it's like, welcome back to your college dorm room. No! You know, like, please don't make me haunt that. You know how like mobsters and like every, like, I don't know about every dad, but certainly my dad, people who cosplayed as little mobsters whenever they go to a restaurant

they're like I have to sit with my back facing the wall just to make sure that there's no danger Have you ever heard about this? My fucking dad always said that No, but that's like the mobster rule It's like I gotta have my back to the wall so I know that nothing's gonna come my way and I can keep my eye out at all their angles

I got clear eyes on everything I feel like I need to start having a little mobster rule for myself where every new building I go into I take a scan and go that's where I'll haunt if I have to be here. that's wrong all right that's my i call that corner called dibs yeah exactly um people also hear the raider stuck in the tree who accidentally hanged himself the irony they hear him screaming for help and then my next blurb in the book was another quote from lucile bluth that says i want to cry so

bad but i don't think i can spare the moisture oh yeah you see yeah good double good callback a callback Yeah, yeah. Good callback. But I mean, that's, I mean, luckily it's someone I don't particularly care for, but either way, like, I can't imagine just like walking, like bringing the groceries in a night and just hearing screaming from a tree. Like a gruesome, like from a tree and then being like,

oh, that's just the ghost of the. Yeah. Fucking enslaved person. Yeah. Seeker. Well, I don't know what he was called? He was a raider. A raider.

Oh, for God's sake. Yeah. I, um, Ugh, give me the chills. Yeah. I don't know. That's a,

give me the crates. It's a yikes right there. Um, people also hear footsteps, both intentional and they hear, um, separately like heavy bootsteps. And then even worse,

this is a quote that people hear scampering through the dining room. Ew. Scampering. I don't like that in, in the, because in the walls, it's like squirrel, immediate squirrel.

Oh, yeah. In the dining room? Just an open floor plan of scampering. Absolutely not. It's always when it's a different type of walking than just normal fucking walking. It's always either you're way too slow, you're way too fast, you're way too peppy, you're way too mad. The slow is so creepy, like slow bootsteps.

Like it's bad. It's all bad. When there's a motion to the footsteps, that's when I hate it the most. Yep. The chandelier has been seen swinging. Tobacco is smelled in the library. People hear mumbled voices speaking to you in the cellar. Don't go to the cellar.

People get grabbed and touched or grabbed and shoved. Um, you hear, oh, those are so sad, you can hear the sounds of the rattling chains downstairs, which means someone's probably stuck there. Um, people feel severe cold spots. People see shadow figures throughout the house and they've also seen shadow figures standing over their bed at night. Uh, furniture rearranges itself. Objects move themselves. Items go missing altogether. Equipment malfunctions when they do try to go ghost hunting, including fresh batteries dying. We have had that happen before and it's always freaky. And inconveniencing. doors open and closed by themselves door knobs are seen turning themselves doors are seen this is the fucking craziest one because any door can open and close by itself but one person one security guard said that in the woodburn mansion he watched a whole floor of doors one open and slammed the next

one open and slam then the next one open and slam as if someone was going in and out of every room and that feels a little mocky if i'm a security guard like oh this is what you should be doing now I'm over here. Now I'm over here. Oh, oh, yeah. Like, I'll do your job for you. It's like, yeah, like, you're like doing the room checks. Yeah. In front of the secure. Oh, that's so creepy. And also it's like, oh, and no room. In no room you're safe. Yeah. Cool. Cool. Great. Awesome. The mansion is open to visitors that make an appointment, which I love that you can just like, call the governor. I'm coming over. Yeah, bring a bottle of wine. It's so small town to be like, oh, I was just, I have to go. I have, where are you off to? Oh, I have to see the governor. I'm popping over to the governor's place. Yeah, yeah. It's, although it is a functioning government building, you can make an appointment to go at least to the house. I don't know if you're going to see the governor.

It's kind of like when all the kids in D.C. go on field trips to the White House and you don't actually see anybody except security. And you're like, wow, I'm meeting the president. That's what I thought. During October, the building also houses paranormal investigations for people, or hosts paranormal investigations. They've said, which is no real surprise. eyes, but in case you're curious, they've said that paranormal activity is the best from 11 p.m.

to 4 a.m. Okay. And one governor actually one time just let students come investigate overnight, which I love, this is literally like, oh, I'm going to go see the governor. He invited me for a sleepover. Oh, to hunt ghosts? To hunt ghosts. And they said the creepiest thing that happened was they reported a woman in a painting

smiling at them all night long. What does that mean? Wasn't she? I don't know if she was already. I'm imagining it's like one of those old paintings where no one ever smiled because you had to sit still for the. And then she just like people kept seeing her smiling. I mean, that's spooky. I wonder if she just, it was just a permanent smile in which case it'd be like, yeah, that's just how the painting is. Or if like every now and then she would just, she would start stern until she caught your real icon, like made real eye contact with you and then went, you know. Which would be very frightening. Yes. Anyway, that is the Woodburn mansion. Remember when I was like, I remember that.

You said ice cream and I went, I'm about to break your heart because I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. No, I was so relieved because we've done the ice cream one. And I was like, I hope this isn't the same one that we've already done. I just remember it being Delaware because of Joe Biden. And I remember that his dessert was like not ice cream. And I was like, isn't that his whole thing? Why didn't they make ice cream for Joe Biden? Anyway. That was when I covered, it was a haunted president's themed restaurant. That's what it was. And it was it was in Delaware? I don't know where it was, but I remember, like, you said, you really lean, you, what's the right word? Your, your commentary led right into my next whole thing, which was like, I actually looked up all the president's favorite food. And you were like, oh, well, I would think it's like squirrel or something. And I went, don't worry, I checked. Oh, thank God I remember that. That was so good.

Yeah, yeah. We barely, one day, we won't remember it at all. Isn't that the craziest part? Oh, my God. And then we'll get to get excited about it all over again. sometimes which is just thrilling i like to think in the retirement home someone's going to play my podcast for me and i'm going to go this sounds really bad um what is this i was like i was going to be like uh get this get this one signed to an agent you know and it's like that's you idiot

well i'll let you know actually i won't because i don't think i'll even really uh be aware of what's happening but in the event if if someone's listening and you end up being my nurse one day give it a play give it a play we'll see what happens we'll see what happens you're going to get I have a heart attack when you hear me shrieking in the background. You were like, not her again. Oh my God. Gee, I thought I got rid of her. Currently going through it with my glasses,

I've had these glasses for a very, very long time. And now it's getting to the point where they are just like a little too flimsy, where I'm being very tender about putting them on my face. Luckily, we are working with Zeni. If you have seen Christine's heart-shaped glasses, you know already why I love Zeni. Zeni makes every type of frame. You can imagine they got all sorts of shapes.

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If your glasses are overdue for a refresh, now is the time. Go to Zennie.com slash podcast and use code Podcast 15 for 15% off your first order. The style out, so do not sit on it. That's Z-E-N-N-I.com slash podcast. Promocode Podcast 15. It's summer and a lot of people are looking to spruce up their wardrobe and depending on what your lifestyle is, maybe you just don't have the time to go shopping. Maybe you don't want to go shopping. I know Allison has never liked going to the mall, but luckily for people like Allison. There is Daily Look. Daily Look is the number one highest rated premium personal styling service for women. With Daily Look, you get your own dedicated personal stylist to carry a box of clothes based on your body shape, preferences, and lifestyle. And this is not an algorithm. These are real personal stylist. Christina's told you before. You really, you really. do get to work with a stylist to figure out exactly what your taste is and what might look good on you

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use our promo code drinks so they know that we sent you. One last time, Dailylook.com and promo code drink. I wanted to add real quick before I forget, the reason I drink this week today actually was going to be because I took little G to the vet. And I was sitting there and the vet comes in and she goes, do you have a podcast by chance? And I was like, shut up. And it had been a long time. I feel like since anyone said anything like that. Was it because Gio got recognized?

And she goes, I saw Gio's name on the thing. And I looked up your name and was like, that sounds familiar. And I was like, you recognize Gio. The GGO. I know. And then she gave him a bunch of shots. And so now she's his worst enemy. But I'm sorry.

It's her fault. I didn't do it. What a way to butter butter. Like if I got recognized by like someone who's about to draw my blood, for a second, I'd forget they were about to take my blood. I'd go, and she really did. She really did just stick the needle in. And then I will say, she did a great job and was really sweet. Her name was Marisa or Dr. Hernandez. Thank you for your kind work with Gio. You're so good with him. And also shout out to your sister, Ali, because apparently Ali is the one who who showed the podcast. But I just was like, this is so special. It was like 9 a.m. and I was like, really.

I was just like poor Gio was all anxious and I was like totally like taken aback. So anyway, Marisa and Ali. I wrote their names down because I was like, I'm going to forget. Was this was this Gio's first time being recognized or did he get recognized? He got recognized once in a couple of times actually the butt curtain got recognized. Like someone was like, I saw the butt curtain at the dog park from afar at the dog park. Ironic. But the name, this is the first time I think the name really has caught someone's attention.

That's so cute. Hank has yet to be recognized. He's recognized once they recognize me. and then they go, oh, in that tank. But he, I don't think it has a same play as Gio. Gio's an OG. He's, you know. And he has that feature of that tail that really gets people wondering.

He's such a cutie pie, that little Gigi. Where is he? What's he doing? Right here. He already ripped off his little band-aid. Oh. A little band-aid. Baby.

Oh. I was like taking selfies with him at the vet. I'm like, oh, my God. Anyway. He's so cute. Okay. I wanted to shout that out before Yappy Hour. I got my coffee.

situation and I'm ready to come back to life and do a yappy hour. So meet us there. Okay. So speaking of World War II, hi everybody. Yes, you missed yappy hour. Did you? Well, don't worry. We were talking about World War II. So you really did miss out. For like an hour. Yeah, for a full hour. No, no, no. We talked about ancestry and like the darker sides of ancestry and how I've been uncovering some stuff because I was respectful of my family's wishes to not look into their history until they disowned me. And then I said, well, if I'm not part of the family, I guess I can do whatever I want. So then I kind of went rogue and I found out some like really wild stuff. But I'm kind of like, M and I talked about like hitting walls where you're like,

oh, I really want to know more about this one interesting piece. And then you're like can't find the missing piece. So we talked about that for a while. But I say, speaking of World War II because this story that I'm bringing today also takes place during World War II, which is when something called the Birmingham Blitz was causing massive chaos in Britain, okay? And there were they were being bombed, people were being displaced. I give you this context to say like, it was a crazy time that this incident took place. This is the story of Bella in the Witch Elm. Couldn't even.

I have no clue what you're saying. Bella in the Witch Elm? That sounds like something I would cover. I know. I know. It's what I've wanted to cover for ages. I remember creeps and crimes got like way into it and like did an awesome coverage of it. So definitely go listen to that after anybody who wants more.

But this is, I've been waiting to cover this for years. It's one that like I've meant to cover since the beginning. Cool. Okay. I know. Let's get into it. So we're in Worcestershire, okay, during World War II. Okay. And there is a Birmingham blitz.

It's causing chaos, displacing people. In other words, it's a bit too easy for someone to be displaced and go missing compared to what it might be like nowadays. Okay. Local police were completely overwhelmed with air raids, civil defense, national security. So missing persons registries were backed up, right? Like we're in the middle of war, like active warfare. there's just too much going on.

And because of all that wartime confusion, if someone, for example, was a traveler or had come from out of town, it would be even easier for them to go missing without a trace and never be found again. So the setting for all of this is Hagley Wood. Hagley Wood is a dense private patch of woods on, get this, Lord Cobham's massive Hagley Hall Estate near Witchburne. Hill. That's some shit that only exists in England or

something. Like they made it up. Like it just sounds like cottage talk. Like that's just some shit. They made it up, but like good on them. Like if there's not a cobblestone in sight, it's a lie. Like that's your lie. It's all, it's all fabric. Like this is this is the only real place. This is the only real

place cobblestones should be allowed to exist. I mean, it just sounds like cobblestones. Hold on. Say it again. Say it again. Just everyone imagine a cobblestone. Just imagine, if you will, a cobblestone. The setting for all of this is Hagley Wood, which was a dense private patch of woods on Lord Cobham's massive Hagley Hall Estate right near Witchbury Hill. It's like I heard the horse feet. Wow.

How much. I'm telling you, like, you have set this scene. Boy, fictually, Christine. Thank you so much. Okay. So this estate, if you will, was heavily patrolled by gamekeepers because it was known for poachers and trespass. passers to kind of wander onto the land. One afternoon, April 18,

1943, four local teenagers, Robert Hart, Thomas Willits, Bob Farmer, and Fred Payne snuck onto Lord Cobham's private land. Now, the reason they're doing this, they're hunting for wild bird eggs. Fabergette. Not Fabergette. Not Faberge. Not yet. Not yet.

Because, of course, at the time with rations, wartime rations, people were hungry. And so people would go looking for eggs as like nourishment, some extra food or poaching rabbits. And that's why this land, because, you know, Lord Cobham doesn't want you poaching anything on his land. I know that. I know. So it's like patrolled so that people aren't doing this. But of course, these four dumb teenagers decide they're going to do it. They're looking for, they're desperate, though.

They're looking for food. Bob Farmer decides to climb the big witch elm near Witchbury Hill because he figured the hollow trunk would be a great place to find a bird's nest. Smart. Now, a witch elm. This is a specific type of tree. It's spelled W-Y-C-H. Witch elm. It's native to Britain and tends to rot from the inside.

And so it leaves deep hollow cavities in the trunk. And so it's known to have a hollow inside once the tree dies. Okay. Looks like a tree. Just Google that everyone does. Don't worry. You've got the report. It just looks like a tree.

It looks like a thick, funky tree. Yeah, it's like a funky tree. But then picture that it hollows on the inside because it rots from the inside. And so then the inside is a great place for animals to burrow and that kind of thing, you know. Cool. So this is a kind of tree that they're looking in. So Bob Farmer decides to climb up there and look down into the dark hollow. And when he does, he sees something pale and round.

He reaches down thinking, it's a nest or an animal skull, but he realizes it is a human skull that he has picked up. Oh, my God. See, if that's not the sign for all four of those teenagers to go, we're good, and just leave the property immediately. Crazy. Since they were trespassing and poaching illegally, the boys panicked, worrying they'd get in trouble with gamekeepers or cops and vowed secrecy to one another. Yeah, that's all you can do.

That's literally, I mean, four teenage boys, frontal lobes, soft as ever. And in 1843 where there's no DNA evidence, are you getting like, call it a night. No DNA evidence. They don't even know what that is. They don't even know what just happened. Like, they're just looking for bird eggs. Yeah. Yeah.

I'm just hungry. I don't want a single other problem. Okay. But the poor Tommy. Tommy. Tommy couldn't. Tommy couldn't keep his secret. Tommy.

I fucking knew it. I knew he was going to be trouble. Okay. He's the oldest, too. And he just had a conscience. And like I would be that kid. I can't. I mean, it would eat me alive.

There's no way that I. Like there's no way a kid can be like as much as I say, of course it's what you would do as a teenager. I'm not condoning that. I would say please as a teenager tell, see something, say something. Right. And like, thank God little Tommy did. But I do understand the inclination to be like, whoa, okay.

Yeah. Out of my depth. And I'm so young that I can just pretend this never happened. It's probably the first real trauma he's ever had. Yeah. Well, I don't know. You're starving during World War II. That's a good point.

Looking for, looking for eggs on a trespassing property. You got to be pretty hungry to be looking for eggs in the dirt. I would say. Okay. Yeah, I would say. But, yeah, I mean, I would say this is a pretty significant trauma on a scale of despite the war. We'll reverse. This must be his second trauma.

Wow. It's only his second major trauma. trauma in life. Um, yeah. So, okay, this poor kid. Uh, anyway,

so they find the skull. They freak out. Um, he pulls it out. He freaks out, uh, the, what had happened is the tree itself had made a perfect natural coffin.

Like it, it became this almost hollow space that fit a body perfectly. Honestly, science is fucking rock and roll sometimes. Right. Like, it kept it hidden there, uh,

for over, the way, we'll find out over a year and a half. The skull, oh, and like this talk about trauma, really. I mean, this really is upsetting. Okay. Remember, this kid picked it up. Yeah. The skull still had patches of matted hair attached, some crooked teeth, and a very,

it's like a noticeable, uneven dental pattern. So they see this skull. I mean, it's out of like a movie, right? Like something out of a prop out of a movie. So because they were trespassing and poaching illegally, they panicked. Farmer just dropped the skull back into the tree. They made a pact of silence and they ran home. But Tommy, like I said, was too uneasy and he told his mom and dad and they called,

wouldn't you know it, the Worcestershire County Constabulary. Can somebody give me a trophy? Thank you. That's crazy. Okay, so the constable. You could have just said that. You know, I could have, but I could have said whatever I did say. Constabulary?

That's crazy. That's I've never heard that word before. Constabulary? That's... Constabulary. Just curious, because I told you at the dog park I'm hosting a spelling bee. I would love to use that word. How does it spell?

Oh, of course. C-O-N-S-T-A-B. So, con, stab, U-L-A-R-Y. It's a classic con-s-stab. you larry typical constabulary typical yeah but also i want to say it has a red squiggle underneath so i wouldn't i would i would perhaps consult the oxford got it so you'd be out at the uh at the uh at the school and you know where i would be at the

judge's booth throwing a fucking hissy fit is what i'd be doing i would be throwing tables over i would be doing cartwheels down the fucking aisles oh my god okay okay sorry my face is like red. That was so funny. Okay. I'm just sweating all over again. Oh my God. Constabular. Fuck off. Worcestershire. I'm talking to myself. Sorry. Worcestershire. I practiced so hard on the Worcestershire. Okay. You killed it. Thanks. When the police went to the woods and so, so this kid feels so much guilt. And I'm sure this was probably hard for all the kids, but one of them spilled the beans right away. I'm assuming that was going to happen no matter who it was. Mom and dad called the police, and I'm sorry, the constable, and the constable goes out into the woods. And when they search the

tree, as indicated by the kids, they do pull out not only a skull, but a nearly complete human skeleton. Inside the tree, they also found a gold wedding ring, torn fragments of clothing, a single crape-sold shoe, and a small glass bottle. When they searched the ground, outside the tree, they found the bones of a hand scattered on the forest floor and a shin bone buried close to the tree trunk. Oh my God. It's weird. They sent all the remains to Birmingham where a famous pathologist named Professor James Webster

did a forensic autopsy. And he figured out that the body most likely belonged to a short, slender woman who was about five feet tall, so relatively short. He estimated she was between 35 and 40 years old. and looking at her pelvic bones, he could tell she had given birth to at least one child. He could tell that she had been dead for at least 18 months, which put her time of death in or before October of 1941, which would have been during the wartime craziness. So that's why one of the main theories is that perhaps this was just somebody who was startled by an air time siren, you know, a bombing and Randy Woods and the wrong person. Oh.

Oh, yeah. We'll get to that. Okay, yeah, I was going to say hit and then got stuck. Yeah, that would be nicer. That would be nicer. Okay. She had actually died of suffocation, not being stuck, because they found down her throat a tightly packed wad of fabric. Oh, man.

So she was definitely killed. Taffeta. Yeah, she was murdered. Some sort of taffeta or something like that. Webster measured measured the opening of the tree. and realized the killer must have put her in there immediately after the murder while the body was still warm, because if they had waited for rigor mortis to set in her stiff limbs would have not allowed her to fit into the kind of narrow shape. As for the missing left hand that they had found nearby, Webster and the police concluded that wild animals had chewed off the bones and dragged them out of the tree,

although some people maintain that this has a more maybe ritualistic or witchy explanation. The victim had a really irregular, like I said, dental pattern and the jaw was a bit crooked and some missing teeth. And so they thought like, okay, well, hopefully that will at least help us identify her through dental records. But checking all the local dentists turned up absolutely nothing. and because the wartime registries were such a mess, there was not really like a reliable local missing persons report that matched her description. And so the investigation kind of just stalled at first. But then around Christmas in 1944, things took a bizarre turn. Now, remember, her death would have been October 1941.

So now we're in Christmas time, 1944. Okay. Cryptic graffiti starts showing up in the area. Okay. And I have a picture for you. Okay. Here's the photo. I'm going to send this to you.

So cryptic graffiti began to show up. I know. I know. I know. Oh, it's so creepy. M. Can you read it,

please? Yeah. So we don't know who wrote this that just showed up near the area? Yes. Okay. Yuck. who put Bella down the witch elm, Hagleywood? So, okay, so now we know her name's Bella.

So somebody definitely knows exactly who that person was and that she was hidden there. So that's what the graffiti said on the same day nearby. By the way, that was written on an empty building on Hayden Hill Road in the town of Old Hill nearby. It was written in three inch white chalk block letters. and that was discovered March 30th. There was another one found the same day. Who and this one, though, said Hagleywood Bella. Then on March 31st, they found another one that said, who put Lou Bella in the

witch elm? Okay. So Lou Bella maybe it's just like the longer version of that name. Exactly. Okay. So the message had changed a little bit, but it appeared several times in the the same handwriting. And it was unknown, you know, who this author was and why they were leaving these

messages around. And immediately I'm curious about like, what is, like, what do you want out of this? Because you have been, I'm assuming right now it was like, it's the murderer themselves or someone who witnessed the murder. Right. I would think. And my first thought is like, you've gotten away with it for so long. and now they have a lot of evidence.

Why would you add to that evidence? Exactly. But then there's the typical, if you're the killer, you have to, like, run back to the crime scene as soon as you're caught. Well, it's like, it's like the ego, like the taunting the police stuff that makes me think, like maybe it's an egomaniac thing. Like, oh, I just need the attention or I need to stir the pot and, like, get some more attention, you know?

Yeah, like this is like really, if I ever hit a body and then someone found it, that's when you just absolutely don't make a goddamn peep, let alone tell them exactly the name. and the longer version of that name? Well, what's also weird is that it was like years later. Right? I don't know what to do with this. Like, that's weird, right? Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. So, I mean, I was like, let me clarify. No, there's not going to be any clarity. But let me just add more confusion, I guess. Okay. So there were several messages, Hagleywood Bella. One said, who put Bella down the witch elm, Hagley Wood?

Ooh, just so creepy. But the message that shortened the name from Lou Bella to Bella and added the location is is the one that kind of got the public using calling this unknown victim Bella like we don't even know if that's her real name we don't know if somebody made that up we don't know if it's a nickname I was so quick I was so quick to assume that that was actually her fucking name but yeah someone could just be trolling everybody yeah yeah it's it's weird uh according to someone on reddit so grain of salt uh the original name gave given to the little little was Lou Bella and they said they knew from growing up in the area that like their aunt would say

Lou Bella in the witch elm, not Bella. So, you know, there's at least some account that says Lou Bella was kind of like the original lore. And then it was shortened to Bella because today we, it is Bella. Mm-hmm. Down the witch elm. Okay. Okay. So the graffiti of course became a massive local phenomenon. Of course, then it like was copycatted all over the area, the Midlands. It was repeatedly written in white spray paint on something called the Witchbury Obelisk, because of course this town called Witchbury has an obelisk. That's this historic 18th century monument by Witchbury Hill.

And in 1999, somebody spray painted who put Bella in the Witch Elm? and they spelled which instead of WYCH. They wrote it like witchcraft. And that has kind of like furthered further. Sure. I mean, that was just meant to happen eventually. Yeah, exactly.

The ritualistic kind of witchiness to it. So now, nowadays it's often referred to as like the witch elm instead of the. Oh, like all trees in general because of that? No, just the story. Oh, okay.

I was like, yeah. Hmm, fun. Like a change, changed the, that poor botanist who named it the witch ham. It's like, damn it, it's spelled. It's like, I intentionally used a W or I mean a Y instead of an eye. I did that on purpose. Yeah, so it kind of matched like local witchcraft rumors and then that, of course, like stuck,

as did the spelling of Bella rather than Lou Bella. So nobody ever figured out who this artist was. And because they couldn't identify the victim, people started coming up with theories. One of the main theories was that they had found the body of a real German spy named Clara. And her name was Clara Bowerly, a 35-year-old German cabaret singer actress. And unfortunately, Upvea agent, Nazi intelligence agent in training. And how did her name come in here? Well, Clara was actually the lover of an active German spy.

named Joseph Jacobs, Yosef Jacobs, who had this, like this sentence feels like I'm having some sort of an episode, but it's, I'm just going to say it. Okay. He had parachuted into Cambridgeshire, been captured and been executed at the Tower of London in August of 1941. So he's a spy. And he, that's what happened to him. Okay.

When he was arrested, he had a photo of Clara in his. pocket because she was his lover. Oh. And because she was also a spy, he basically told MI5 that she was a secret agent who was scheduled to parachute into the Midlands on that same mission where he was captured. So theoretically, he's saying Clara parachuted into the Midlands around that time. Okay. And then he was executed at the Tower of London.

This does feel like they found a body. ramble or something. And then the Tower of London does make an appearance in this. Interesting. Okay. Did I say Tower? I meant Bridge.

I didn't even know parachutes existed in the fucking 1800s. Okay. It's not the 1800s. Wait, I thought those was 1840 something. No. 1940.

Did I say 1840? No, 1941. It's World War II. Sorry, I keep making it 1840 in my head. Sorry. Blitzkrieg Bop. You literally keep saying 1940. In my head, I keep saying 18. Sorry.

Well, that's okay. Basically what happened is this one spy. I mean, because it sounds so nuts, but this is really what happened. Okay. This German spy, I'm going to say it like the English way because otherwise I trip myself up. This German spy Joseph Jacobs, he is caught when he's parachuting into Cambridgeshire, which is like two hours away from where this witch elm is. When he's caught, he tells British agents like MI5, he tells them.

Oh, this photo in my pocket, that's my lover, Clara. She's also a secret agent for Germany for Nazi intelligence, which she was, Clara Bowerly, and that is who's in his pocket. And she was scheduled to also parachute, but in two hours away into the Midlands area. So where she did actually. Where the witch elm was and where the body was found. So this is now the connection that's being made here. That already is a lot of like weird coincidence that she and basically his tale was that she landed.

She supposedly was supposed to meet him. He was caught and she was never heard from again. So the theory is that she got killed along the way, maybe by like the opposition. Got tangled up in something. Yes. Yes. Okay. So yes.

Keep that in mind actually because that that's sort of kind of the broader picture that starts to develop actually. Okay. So wait, before we go any further. Am I still thinking of this as just one of many theories or is this the standing theory? Or do you not much on me yet? It's sort of like they all kind of blend together. I don't know how else to put it.

Okay. Yeah. It's sort of, I think that they're all connected in like a broader scheme. Okay. I think there's some sort of spy angle here, but I could be totally off. Like the other theory being that like somebody was just in the wrong. place at the wrong time during an air raid and the air raid sirens going off and we're startled and were confused and lost and met met somebody who harmed them so you know that's also a theory

so there is so bella is just like the um the mythical name to this lore but not not actually we don't find out later that there really was in fact of Bella because I'm still thought up I'm still thinking about the the graffiti and like it feels like someone knew her name was Bella but maybe they where maybe this was just like baiting people. Okay. See, this is exactly why I couldn't give like a straight answer on how many theories there are because listen to this. Clara, the spy, okay, remember her? Who was supposedly supposed to parachute into the Midlands and then was never heard from again. She had actually performed in West Midlands music halls for two years before the war and she actually

spoke English with a perfect Birmingham accent. And her audiences, so she's a spy, right? But so she was like really in character. Like she, that is like someone she was able to portray very well. And her audiences in England knew her as Clara Bella or Bella. Oh, shut the fuck up. I know. So this, like it was like either her stage name, or like her, what's it like an agent name or your alias.

Yeah, something like that. Okay. Yeah. But in 2016, researchers dug into German public archives and completely debunked the theory when they proved that Clara Bowerly actually died of natural causes in a Berlin hospital in December of 1942. That adds an extra layer. Okay.

And that was before the skeleton in the tree was ever even found. However, I want to say, remember what we were saying about wartime records and what are you going to tell me about spies? Like, I don't believe you, you know? I don't know. how much am I supposed to believe about spy records being accurate, especially when it comes to like Nazis being involved? You know, I don't know.

I don't know. I'm just saying I still find it a bizarre coincidence all of this if it wasn't her. It's summer outside. A lot of people are trying to get that close shave so their legs are extra silky smooth. And unfortunately, when it comes to shaving your legs, a lot of people deal with irritation and red bumps and they feel like the razor isn't really meant for them or it's flimsy, especially, you know, women's products with a pink tax. A lot of women's products are double the price of men's products. But luckily, when it comes to Harry's Flamingo came out of that. Basically, the women who

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slash drink to claim this offer and after you purchase, they'll ask where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them that we sent you. Another spy theory that I think that some people claim is like another, a separate theory altogether, but I think kind of goes with this other theory. Like I think they may be talking about the same person, which is why I said like maybe to multiple theories, maybe to one big one. In 1953, a journalist, like keep in mind, this is nine years later, a journalist named Wilfred Byford Jones got a letter from someone using the pen name Anna.

And this Anna claimed that Bella down the witch elm was actually a Dutch woman named Clara Bella. I'm sorry about the last name. Clara Bella. I can't wait. I can't wait. I just, whatever it is, I know she was bullied in high school or something or would have been. Clarabella

Clarabella drunkers Dronkers Dronkers is crazy But you know in high school They called her Clarabella drunkers Like she was It could be worse

It could be worse But you could definitely make fun of that This is like the time on Beach T's Sandy I couldn't say There was this woman named Dorcas And I like could not for the life of me Say the name out loud Because just crying laughing

Deirdra had a grandma named Dorcas And I remember being like oddly insensitive about it when I first. It's so rude, but I was like, what? I was like, everyone in this family is talking about Dorkas. Why is nobody acting about how crazy that name is? Like, it's not okay. You're gaslighting me.

It's like, oh, Aunt Flatchelence. And I'm like, what? Like, I'm like, but I remember hearing Dorkas and everyone was talking about. And I was like, this is a joke, right? We're punking me. Yeah. I 100. Yes, 100%.

And then by the way, someone wrote in and they were like, okay, wait, so, no. It, okay, hold on. No, I forgot. It wasn't somewhat wrote in. That's, my brother would just be so mortified. It was a review. Okay. That I brought. And the reviewer was so upset because the tour guide kept making fun of the name Dorcas. But this reviewer had like a great aunt named Dorcas. And so they took it really personally. They were like, how dare you? In like a Yelp review. I mean, um, I, like, when I was, when I heard that from Deirdre's family and I made a comment, first of all, they gaslit the shit out of me and made me think that I was the crazy person. No, you're right. You're correct. Because all they were like, what? It's just a name. And I was like, no. I know you're right, but I, I think I'm wrong to. No, M's right. I was seven to be fair, but I do think it's still like the silliest name. No, like, I've never even heard that name till I was like 33 and I literally couldn't say it because I was laughing so hard. I cried. I, I, I

does and I have to assume the the term dork came from someone named dorcas like you know in the office when they're like oh he totally shrewd at it's like yeah but they're like oh she's a real dorcas you know what I'm saying talking about dorkas is such a good like little oh man I that I mean there's a reason people often choose actively to not use that name anymore I guess so I guess so I wonder if dear driver has a daughter she'll she'll say what do you mean it's a perfect nice name. I know. Then I'll go, it's beautiful. Listen, the world will to say something, don't worry. I mean, I feel like that's how a lot of probably people in the UK probably see the name Fannie, right? I was just thinking that too.

So I'm sure we're probably a lot of those instances. Yeah. Right. So now this Anna claims she knows who Bella is and then she's a Dutch woman named Clara Bella Dronkers, the wife of a Dutch spy. Now, this is the letter that Anna wrote to the journalist. Okay, I'm going to read to you. You will never solve the mystery. The one person who could give the answer is now beyond the jurisdiction of earthly courts. Jesus. Yeah. I feel like that's a notification I would get on my ancestry.com tree where it'd be like,

there's nothing left that you'll never find. Yeah. You've reached the end. I hope you haven't had a terrible time. Yeah. The only person who could ever give the answer is now beyond the jurisdiction of earthly courts. The affair is closed and involves no witches, black magic, or moonlight rights. The person responsible died insane in 1942. And the victim was Dutch and arrived illegally in England about

1941. Anna. Respectfully, I feel like this is what your family would tell you so you'd stop looking for your family members go, she's gone insane. Don't look any further. You know what I mean? Oh, okay. No. So, so actually she was referring to her husband. I know because Anna was actually a woman named Una Mossop and when she was kind of called out like they were able to figure out who this was they determined that she the the real story is that her ex-husband Jack Mossup was a black marketeer civilian black marketeer who occasionally liked to wear a stolen RAF uniform. and run around and cause trouble. And she said that back in late 1941, he went drinking at a pub in Hagley with a Dutch guy named Van Ralti and an unnamed Dutch woman, which would be this Clarabella person. She said the woman got wasted, passed out in the car, and either to, I mean, I'm going to go with like, I'm assuming worst possible case scenario. because I know men.

It says to either teach her a lesson or frighten her or play a prank on her. I'm assuming to a sort of, I mean, this is assault in some way or another. They put her supposedly into the tree and then she got stuck and died. But it's like, why was there something stuffed down her throat then? You know what I mean?

Absolutely. That doesn't even make fucking sense. Yeah. And not long after that, which this is the part the journalist tracked down, Jack Mossop had a massive mental breakdown and he had to be institutionalized. So it's like, I mean,

and she was using a pen name, so it's like, I don't know, it's kind of crazy. Yeah. He was admitted to the Stafford Mental Hospital because he kept seeing hallucinations of a pale woman staring out at him from a tree trunk. Oh my God. Okay.

Well, that's, I mean, we'll never know, but that does feel telling a little bit. It's weird, right? Yeah. It's a weird overlap. So modern investigators are pretty skeptical of the story, even though I find it pretty like, I don't know, jarring. Mainly because she waited 10 years after his death to say anything and it doesn't

explain how the hand bones got scattered on the ground. But then I'm like, I thought that was an animal. So why are you saying it was something different? I don't get it. I don't know. Like, then what do you think the hand bones? Like, not you. I mean, then what do they think the hand bones?

are therefore. It's just weird. Then you have like the occult side of things, right? So this came mainly from a famous anthropologist and archaeologist named Dr. Margaret Murray in 1945. And boy, did she cause quite a fucking stir. She claimed that Bella, the victim in the witch elm, was actually killed in a ritualistic witchcraft execution. She argued that her hand being cut off was done to create a.

hand of glory, which is like an artifact that was historically like a magical object that you would make from a dead criminal's hand and then burglars would use it as a totem sort of to put the homeowners to sleep before they robbed them. Hang on. I feel again like maybe I'm having a stroke. Can I repeat that? I feel like, yeah, but start where you parachute out of the sky and then you get captured and you die in the Tower of London. But you've got another spy picture in 1841, but there's also parachute. Yeah, this is all a little. Okay, okay.

I'm like, is this normal in England? Like maybe I'm just like, maybe they're just new words to me. They're like, Fanny is crazy. But this shit we do all the time. Yeah. Yeah. So this anthropologist and archaeologists like concocks this theory that this is witchcraft, right?

And I mean, which like, I don't know. It feels like a bit of a. a stretch because if they were creating a hand of glory, why did they leave it there on the forest floor? I don't understand as a pile of bones. It feels like it was important to be with you or a place somewhere. It's strange that you would say that and then like it would be there on the ground. I feel like anyone, I feel like a lot of people just throwing their hat in on their ideas of what happened. I think so too. I think so too. She also said putting a corpse in a hollow tree was a classic occult way to lock away a witch's spirit so she couldn't escape or curse her killers.

the media, of course, fucking loved this theory. And they splashed it all over the newspapers. And they even linked it to another unsolved local murder of Charles Walton, who was killed in Lower Quentin in 1945 and were like, there's like a spree of ritualistic witch. I mean, it's basically like satanic panic,

but in the 40s. I mean, also like, I feel like let's not forget that it's literally called a witch elm. Like, of course, the story would then become she was a witch in the witch elm. And the, and the graffiti.

period. I mean, it is very creepy. Like, it does totally lend itself to, like, a folklore. If you told 10 year old me, oh, there's a tree called a witch elm, which I've never heard of before, so I have to assume it's the word witch. And there was a woman found in there and maybe for some sort of ritual, of course I'm going to think she's a witch. Immediately. Immediately. And like, to be fair, the way it was presented also, which, like, I don't know. You think I don't know anything about fucking. like what field any of them. You were like, you think I don't know.

You think you don't know about what you don't think you don't know. calculus geometry. I don't know. I could go on and on. The list goes on forever. But like farming, agriculture, I don't fucking know. But the theory was that apparently some local people native to this land would put a body in the witch elm to bring.

about a good harvest. And I'm like, is that true? I just feel like we're making shit up. Like, I don't know. Because it's like, then why didn't we find a bunch of them in trees? Like, what are you talking about? I think this, I think like there's just too many very out there theories that all of them sound even more ridiculous than if it was just one theory by itself.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I don't know. I want to believe like, I mean, for some reason, like a spy going missing and getting murdered is like the most believable. all of a sudden. Exactly. And I'm like, that can't be right.

Usually that has to be like. That's why I'm so thrown. I feel like in every other story you've covered like them being a spy is like the wackiest thing that could happen. Right. And it's almost like weirder that somebody would just randomly accidentally run into someone in the woods during during an air raid. And like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

What's we're honestly. So it's very confusing. But yeah. So she basically claimed that this was like a ritualistic thing. And the media like ran with. this and then said there was like another one, even though the police were like, no, it's wild animals that the hand is missing. In which case, I'm like, then why did you dismiss that other theory? But whatever, okay. They were like, it's wild animals for the missing hand. Of course,

the witchcraft part like caught on and became like one of the main focal point to the story. Because like you said, it's, it writes itself. Like there's no way it wasn't going to become part of the story. There were a couple other minor theories. Like, for example, a Burma, Birmingham sex worker who told police that one of her colleagues named Bella, who worked on Hagley Road, had vanished in 1941. Like, that, I think, makes a lot of sense. That makes the most sense so far. The most sense.

It's the most normal. That's considered, like, a minor possibility. And I'm like, okay, I guess. Yeah. Let's just gloss over that. I guess so. Another simple theory was that it was just a local woman who, like, somehow got trapped during an air raid and the bomb scared her and she climbed in.

like you said earlier, but again, with like the finding the things stuffed down or throat and that's odd. That tells me immediately that someone did this. It's bizarre. Like I just don't feel like that's. It's like she choked on her own fabric and got scared so she ran into a tree and then got stuck. That didn't happen. Climbed into it right now.

Or like she got stuck and decided to try to eat her own fabric to stay alive. That's not, that didn't happen. Exactly. I don't think that's it. So I exactly. Thank you. I agree. Someone did this to her.

I agree. I agree. So just super, super weird. And, like, of course, over the years, people have, like, thrown around different theories. And none of them quite lead to, like, a satisfying conclusion. The biggest tragedy is that the physical evidence, as in the body, is completely gone. It's missing. What? Right after the autopsy in 1943, pathologist James Webster sent the bones to his friend.

Okay. his friend. At the University of Birmingham for some unofficial tests. What the fuck? Either this guy was also a mob guy who keeps his back to the wall when he goes to restaurants and got rid of the body. Or can you imagine if he really thought like, oh, I'm like an amateur who really wants to get into this field and then he loses a fucking body? That'd be crazy. It's only one of the two.

Either he was paid to do it or was an accident. Either way he should feel like shit. I think what I think I have like a totally other take on it. What is it? I mean, I think he just, they, they were like, they liked the occult theory, I think and they wanted to keep the body. I think they, or maybe I think they wanted to keep it just to like, you know how people just, you know how white men like to just take stuff?

Just like a trinket, just like a little trinket. Yeah. They love to have a little trinket, especially when it's a woman's body. So I think maybe he sends it to his friend at the University of Birmingham for some unofficial tests, whatever the fuck that means. And then her body, we have no record of it. Disappears. I think you're totally right.

Yeah. So apparently the skeleton for some time was kept in the Birmingham City Police's private museum at their at their tally-ho training center. Okay. That's better. It's better. proceed. The skeleton was kept in the Birmingham City Police's private black I don't know what it means.

Private black museum at their private museum at their Talleyhoe Training Center until the 1960s or early 70s. But during a big reorganization of police archives, the remains vanished. And nobody knows where they are. So anyway, still, nobody knows. Okay. Even though police officially closed a review of the case in 2014,

people, of course, are still trying to solve it to this day. In 2018, something... What? Oh, my God. Is Dorcas Black of Tallyho involved? I literally wrote these sentences. I'm like, I must have thought them weird at some point, right? I feel like you did the notes and kind of like fell off and like just kind of like...

I must have, but I think it's just how British people are. British people are so like unintentional. funny. Like, what are you doing? Like, listen to this tallyho training center. By the way, tallyho has an exclamation point. And then it says training center. Like, that's important. That feels like a kid's zone. It's like, tally ho. Tally ho. Pizza and laser tag. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. So I, TM, TM, Tm, Tm. I'm going to read the sentence again because really, it just sounds insane. In 2018, face lab at Liverpool. What? In 2018, face lab.

at Liverpool, John Moore's University, used old autopsy photos of the skull to create a digital 3D forensic facial reconstruction of what Bella looked like. And then an artist was able to create a rendering. And so I do also have a picture of like what I can send you of what Bella might have looked like today. Now, they really want to find any remains that they can. unfortunately they've had no luck even though in 2023 the BBC launched a massive appeal alongside its podcast the body in the tree which was about Bella and the Witchell asking museums and private collectors to search their storage rooms for the missing bones because like they're just somewhere you know which is crazy like someone just snagged them and also I mean somewhere yeah

I mean there are people who just buy storage storage units without even knowing what's in there and yeah exactly you could accidentally have a body in there and go I aspire to be one of those people I mean the dream is like to just like have treasure and the treasure is like treasure is a skeleton. Yeah, treasure hunting all the time. But yeah, so they've asked but nobody can find anything. But if they are able to find a skeleton modern labs could finally run like isotope testing to see where she was from, run DNA to see who she was if we can be so lucky.

But of course, this legend, whether we discover who she actually is or not has become, you know, very, very famous. There have been lots of, there have been operas and plays and movies and stories and podcasts and comic books, all sorts of stuff. Even a ballet, I believe. Oh, no, I'm sorry, contemporary dance piece called Bella. So yeah, lots of, lots of beautiful art, but it's just tragic that we don't know. I also have a picture of the skull, which I'm not, I mean, unless you want to see it, but I mean, I'll see it. We don't have to make it public, but I'll, Okay. It's just like disturbing to think, A, this is what these poor kids discovered, but also B, that somebody like took this and like wanted it as like a like a trophy or something, you know,

and kept it like that just, that just gives me that ick, you know. Okay, well, it's not going to let me. Maybe. I'll get it in the middle of the night and. Oh my God. Like finally. And I'll, I'll, I'll click notify anyway. Just to be evil. Okay, hold on. I'm going to send it. so that the bottom is the skull and then this is the picture above is the reconstruction right from face lab science is crazy mm-hmm i kind of like i kind of call bullshit on science sometimes i'm like i don't understand how that like you must just have put a face up there and just gone see and like i don't know how scientifically you would even be able to have you seen those videos where they like take the cartilage and mold it like how crazy

It's amazing. Wow. Okay. Well, that's been, I mean, that's fascinating. It's just so sad, you know, though we still don't know. Yeah. You think, like, at some point, do you kind of a dark question, do you just give up on some of these cases? Like, because like, if it's me?

Well, like, when you think about the theories of it, because I sit there and I think like, like almost 100 years old, anyone who would know anything about it is gone. Like, I wouldn't, like, I could never be the, the, the copy. in the department where like they do cold cases because I just every day I would be just so discouraged. I just be like, oh no. I mean, I'm just fortunate that I get to do something new every day, but I definitely believe that the right person just has to have an estate sale and they're like, here are the bones. That's a good point. Like I just, I feel like shit like that happens, you know. Yeah. I mean, Zodiac Killer. Like some, I guess like no reason for Golden State. Golden State. I guess anything's possible.

But at some point I would just, I'm, like, I think I get so focused on like, wanting to figure out. And if I can't within a certain time frame, then I'm like, oh, then it just must not exist. Yeah, it must not exist. It's just how my brain operates. So, man, congrats to the people out there who don't give up. I do. I know.

Seriously, because I do. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Well, thank you. Great. Everybody. And thank you.

Yeah. I've been wanting to do that. one for a long time because, you know, I love an unsolved mystery. I love when you do an unsolved mystery. You love it or do you hate it? You kind of hate it. I hate that I never solve it. You love to hate it. Yeah. Yeah, there you go. We have a, we have a bit of a dance, me in those cases, because I really do for some reason, there's a pinch of me who thinks, can you imagine if we solved it right now? I mean, someone has got to eventually, right? So like, what if we came up with the theory that just like, nobody else had thought of. I don't know why I think I'm, I would be on that level. But then at the end, by the time, by the time I haven't figured it out, I'm like, oh, well, you did a great job telling it. Well, thank you. And, um, ditto. Thank you. My, well, I already, I retold it technically because mine was a, from there. But both, both tellings were great and my double joke made it even better. I thought that was so funny. I love how I didn't and actually. I love that like that the double entendre, as you know, I like to say.

It's so not a good feeling often when people don't get your joke, but it works when the joke works either way. I was like, sure, we can take it that way too. Correct it itself. Oh, my gosh. Oh, man. Well, what are you up to for the rest of the day? Week. What are you doing?

I got to get out of here. It's like 90 degrees in here. I believe it. Sweating. I'm sweating. What are you doing? I don't know. I guess I'm just enjoying my last weekend before I have to pack everything up and head on out of here.

So I'm going on a bunch of family trips and weddings and I'll be busy. For all I know the next time you see me, I'll be in a hotel. I don't even know if I'm going to bring my microphone just in case. I don't know. We'll see. Yes. We're going to try to record Monday. And then if not.

Well, I have so I, no, no. I mean, I have so many trips coming up all back to back. Oh, that you might bring it for. I might just bring it for a bunch of reasons because I have this, then a wedding, then I have another wedding right after. And then from that wedding, I'm treating it as a. trip so I'm going to stay a couple days. So I think I'm just going to start bringing my microphone everywhere because I just don't know how our schedule will look versus traveling. Anyway, it'll be a bit of a headache, but whatever. I think I'm just going to, I need to just

buy myself a Pelican case and just like have like an official holder of all the equipment. You're to go kit. Yes, exactly. You can have a go bag. Yeah. You know how like after we traveled so much our suitcases? Like we just had double of everything. So we never had to like keep packing our toiletries. I think I just need a double microphone. So I just always got a box with all my working equipment instead of thinking about like I have to bring this wire in this wire. Oh, I have two microphones. I bring what I have a travel mic. Yeah, what do you say I bring with me?

I don't take this giant boom mic off. You used to have a normal boom mic one. And that was your travel one. That's true. That's your wireless mic. That's true. What the fuck happened to that? I don't know.

But yeah. So anyway, that's what I'm doing. Are you having any fun this weekend? Oh my God. I don't know. Well, let us know. Well, we'll find out. Blaze is coaching.

a bunch of jujitsu. So Leona and I are going on our own, which means we're going rogue and probably getting ice cream. That sounds like the best way to go rogue. We're usually just eating ice cream on weekends, like the whole time. Little mommy daughter date. We have a lot of fun. I love it.

Okay. Well, we'll see you guys next week. And that's why we drink. On July 16th, the hawk lands on Netflix. From the mind of Will Farrell. Oh, mama. I'm back. Come a new original series.

Get ready, get ready. That's it. Did I stutter? When an iconic pro golfer. Lonnie? Monty! Hawke! Hey!

Takes one last swing at greatness. You were a big shot golfer. I still am a big shot golfer. No one. Dad, I'm the Hawk now. We'll stand in his way. That's how it's done. The Hawk, only on Netflix, July 16th.