And That's Why We Drink - E492 Peanut Butter Relationships and Bagel Traumas

Episode Date: August 2, 2026

Episode 492 is here and we’re being haunted by Zak Bagans' Rose song. This week Em tells us the story of the Princess Theatre in Melbourne, Australia with its friendly ghost actor. Then Christine covers a doozy of a case, the murders of Chad Choice and J.C. Levassar. And will someone get Hell on the horn so Em can be Mayor? …and that’s why we drink!Want to listen ad-free? Join our Certified Yapper tier for $10/month on Patreon! Ad-free episodes starting at E469 at: http://patreon.com/ATWWDPodcast !Catch our bonus Yappy Hour intermissions on Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3L28lDw or subscribe on Patreon!___________________Get the Flamingo Starter Set for just $7 at https://www.shopflamingo.com/DRINK—includes the Original Razor, 5-blade cartridge, Foaming Shave Gel, and shower holder; support our show by telling them we sent you. #adDownload the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or visit https://quince.com/drink for free shipping and 365-day returns, now available in Canada and the UK.Let Rocket Money help you reach your financial goals faster—join at https://RocketMoney.com/DRINK .Get your new wireless plan for just $15 a month at https://mintmobile.com/atwwd . Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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See website for details. details. Hello, it's Emma and Christine. If your favorite true crime cases are the ones that make you text your friends, spiral down a three hour, three day, Google rabbit hole and say there is no way that actually happened. We have got your next obsession. It's called red-handed, hosted by Hannah McGuire and Saruti Bala, and I have followed them on Instagram for quite some time. I use them a lot for research for my cases. I've known about them for such a long time. And finally, we could work together and do a little cross. Cross. Cross promo. Every week, this multi- award winning true crime podcast, unpacks the world's wildest murders, cults, disappearances,

scams, criminal conspiracies. Their episode on the Branch Dividians, I remember, was like mind blowing to me. They just, it feels like you're sitting in on the conversation. They're also like very funny and witty. And if you love the blend of storytelling and personality here at our show, and that's why I drink, you'll feel right at home with Red Handed. It's smart, funny, surprising, and packed with the kind of details that completely changed the way you think about a case. So follow Red Handed on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we have a feeling you're going to be hooked. Solar plexus.

That's so weird. I was just talking about solar plexus today. Every time I eat avocado and like it feels like someone kicked me in my solar plexus. Like in your sternum here? Yeah, like right underneath. Really? Well, okay.

Wait, that's why I'm getting. That's so weird. That's why I'm getting this food sensitivity thing. Oh, is that the same thing you feel? Because, oh, hi, everyone. Sorry, I want to, can we hop in? I don't know when we're allowed to hop in. I don't want to jump in with like your own health stuff.

And I didn't mean to bring this to the group, but I did get some DM helping me out from last time I forgot that I talked about this. Like I completely forgot I mentioned on the last episode that like I've been having this weird like no appetite so I can only eat smoothies and stuff. And I'm not pregnant folks. Check that. I was actually on my period when I recorded that. So don't don't that's not the culprit. But you say like that solarplex, that is literally where like my sternum, it feels like there's like a block or like a scarring or like something like like a inflammation. I don't know. So yeah. So that's and I, and I, I don't know if it's like food sensitivity or stress or crones or, you know, what the hell.

No, it's only whenever. It's when I eat avocado, but it's also when I smell, um, either jasmine or like, like, not vanilla like the food, but vanilla like the fragrance. Like the flowery plant. The flower. Oh, interesting. If I smell, if we walk past Jasmine, I feel like anyone I, anytime I do, someone's like, oh my God, it smells so good.

And I'm like, I think I'm going to throw up. Like, I really feel. That's so funny. I stick my whole face into it. So, yeah, that is interesting. I feel sick to my stomach. It, like, really makes me, like, the solar, like the nausea of someone hitting your solar plexus.

Yeah, you know, I wonder. It's, like, amazing kind of how our bodies are like, nope, we don't like that. Yeah, it is wild. And then, of course, Allison just planted a bunch of Jasmine and. Oh, yeah, yeah. And then Allison's going to be on dateline. Yeah, she's just slowly killing me, yeah. Yeah, exactly.

She's like, have avocado for dinner. Yeah, and this is like a pest, a healthy pesto made with avocado. Yeah. I mean, it goes away after five minutes, but those five. minutes. I'm like, I feel like I just like got just got off the craziest roller coaster. So that's really weird because I have that. I've never been able to eat like stevia or like aspartame or anything and it like immediately makes my throat like swell and it sounds bad. It feels bad. It sure does. It sure does. But it's not life. I mean, as far as I know, I don't go so far as to make it life

threatening and I avoid it. But it like is extremely uncomfortable. And I, Leona does not have that with sugar-free stuff. Like I cannot go near sugar-free. Even like that. the like plant sugar-free stuff like monk fruit monk fruit which is so weird because it's like it's a plant you know and they were remember stevia was like it's from a plant right yeah it's organic yeah yeah and everything and i was like constantly at school walking around like are these cookies sugar-free because they're killing me interesting what would you yeah i don't know would you feel anything other than your throat kind of closing up like it like really just kind of feels like i shouldn't be drinking this. Okay. I mean, that's a good time. And it's like, I mean, I do feel a little left out of the

Diet Coke, like, culture, because I'm, I would be so hardcore into the, I know I would be hard you give me Diet Coke girly vibes. I do. I know I feel it in my bones and it's like a Coca-Cola, but like that's just not the same, you know. I've got a friend at the dog park who I think brings a Diet Coke like every day to the park, but it's like, I like want to, yeah, I get the vibe so hard. And we went to Chili's he got a Diet Coke. He's like, I fucking love diet cook. My brother has that. He's so into it.

To be fair, I'm also not in that circle because I have never been a diet anything person. Do you not like it? Or is it like you just, yeah, it tastes gross, right? It tastes gross. I mean, it also poisons me. But to me, it also tastes gross. I mean, like the aspartamey flavor, which he has said is like, that's the thing. And I'm like, okay.

That's what people like. Yeah. Yeah. I can't stand that. I want like, well, I was going to say, I want real sugar, but then like cook these days isn't even real sugar. So I just want corn syrup, I guess. I tell you what, though, that corn syrup doesn't.

doesn't do a damn thing to my throat and I love it. So what the fuck ever at this point? It's like the monk fruit is going to kill me. So I might as well have some corn syrup. Yeah. Have you ever had Coke with the yellow top? What's that? No.

It comes out during like Jewish holidays because it's, at least that's what I know it as. It's like Jewish Coke because it's kosher and it's like real cane sugar or something. But it's supposed to taste more like the original recipe. I've heard that about the Mexican Coke, like in the glass bottle when you go to don't. Maybe it's the same thing. And I, my, they just market it as two different things. But, yeah, their marketing, they're definitely going to sell. The yellow top, though, I don't know about. You'll, now that I've said it, you'll see it eventually. And it's a, it's supposed to be. I thought you meant like a cold foam top. And I was like, oh, interesting. That's so L.A.

No, no, no. Like the, like the leaders at the store will have yellow tops. What? The leaders, like the two liter bottles of Coke. I thought you meant like the team leader, like the general manager of the store will be wearing, yellow top and I was like, hello? And he's Jewish every time. Yeah. And he wants to make sure that your drinks are kosher. I really was thrown off for a moment and I thought we were living. And I think we were in two different realities. Absolutely. Because I was like, I know what I said. Incredible. And you know, this has been happening ever since we recorded ads before this. Like, I said we can't even blame Mercury. It's not retrograde. We're just, you know, like,

we're in a little, uh, it's rough. We're in a space. times. I mean, hear me say a freaking disclosure, whatever those things, terms and conditions at the end. I was like, poor Jack, our editor is like struggling. I was telling you before, I'm changing the topic, by the way. Yeah, I mean, I was already, I already left the other one. Before we talk about, you know, the Jews in their yellow tops. Oh, right. And then I was like, is this that it's, it's their holiday outfit? What they do at Wawa?

Like I was like try to picture like what store or like a Publix. I didn't understand the yellow tops. This is really embarrassing. I was going to say I just, we just decluttered a bunch of stuff and we ended up playing a bunch of like games yesterday, which you know I fucking love. Yeah, you and your games. It's like only my dream. But okay. It was.

What do you mean a bunch of games? Like who while you were cleaning? So we. Like that doesn't sound fun. I want to put that on the record. I agree. Allison and I were trying to be more intentional with our time together and we couldn't come up with anything except playing games and I was like, we have to have more fun than this, please. We ended up saying like, we'll play a game and just see where it takes us. It turned into the game being us decluttering our games. Oh, that was the game. Sure, sure, sure, sure. We played basically, oh, the game was that we were, all the games we were.

all the games we were thinking about decluttering, we decided to play one last time to see if we really wanted to keep them or not. And so it was... That sounds fun. Yeah, it does sound like a riot of a time. It, you know, it's just like, that's what you do on the weekends in your 30s. Yeah, I was going to say, was a Saturday night? It was a Sunday night.

Oh, okay. At least there's that. We ended up getting rid of, like, half of our stuff, which does... That's got to feel good, though. That part felt really good. And we played them to test them to make sure. But, like, we ended up finding all of our... Like we have so many fucking decks of cards and decks of tarot cards.

And I thought we only had like two or three. I have fucking like seven or eight decks of tarot cards. But it, that was going to be the, my question of the day for you, not that I need one. But as I was doing it, I was like, I wonder how many Christine has because she's really into tarot. How many decks do you have? Well. Oh, man. I don't know.

I don't know. If you had to baseball, I'm forgetting the phrase. more than I would have in the past because I actually finally got them all together and put them out. So I'm trying to think probably, I mean, probably 15, 20. Do you have a favorite? Yeah, just my, my favorite is, I think just the one, my trusty old, you know, the one I got when I was 15 and like bought with my own money and like, you know, have, have like studied. Like that one is my is my favorite one. But then I just kind of go with the vibe.

I'm like, which what's, there's this new one that it's not even a new one. Someone named Kat apparently gave it to me, and I use it sometimes in the TikTok readings I'm doing and the YouTube ones. But someone named Kat gave it to me and it's like the beloved ancestor deck. And that one is so cool because it basically you can tap into like who, which ancestor or like, which ancestral energies you're working with. And so sometimes I'll be like called to do that on a reading and like pull somebody's creepy grandpa or like it'll say like drunk. And I'm like, oh, somebody's just like drunk uncles. here to give you wisdom. I don't know. But so that one's really special because it feels very like

spooky and it's like this Victorian like, you know. So whoever you are, Kat, apparently worked out of because there's a note inside and it says and I found it in my closet. So I've had it for years. And it was like and I just pulled it out. It said like, I can't believe I get to see you at the venue where I work. Love Cat. And I'm like, I don't know what the fuck venue that was. For some reason, it's giving me like Pacific Northwest vibes. But I also could. be New Hampshire. I don't fucking know. So yeah, whoever you are, Kat, thank you. I've mentioned you like three times on YouTube because I keep saying thanks to Kat who gave us to me. But anyway, that one felt like it needed to come out. So if anyone, yeah, it needs a message from

their grandfather. I certainly don't. That's a good deck. I mean, sure. Well, I kept finding more tarot decks and I was like, how the fuck do I have this money? But one of them was, I mean, they're mainly fandom ones. Like I've got like Pokemon one. I've got like a back to the future. I have a neopets one. Ow, my ear. The angels are like get the neopets deck. It's like I just watched it happen in real life. Yeah, I don't know where those are. I've got to find those. Neopets has to be such a fun little deck. I'm sure when you got it. And I'm like, I can't believe I didn't. And I think Andrews McMill, our book publisher, are the ones who published that and sent it to me. Crazy. I know. I got to go get that. Anyway, I didn't mean to like put you on the spot there. But I thought

of you this weekend when we were organizing all of our taro. I was. It's like, can you imagine, if I have this many, like, can you imagine someone who's actively pursuing terror? Well, and I'm apparently remembering I have other ones that are just sort of stashed because I don't know where that Neopets one is, but I do have it. Also, I know I have like three other decks that aren't even in this pile, which means I got to go declutter other things to find those. But yeah, yeah. And these are ones I've like, I've like curated mine. Like, I feel like I've gotten rid of some that didn't vibe with me or not really even gotten rid of, like gave them to people or like felt like these just, I don't know. Yeah.

I think I've probably got a dozen or 15. That's awesome. Anyway, why do you drink this week? Also, look, wait, before I ask you, well, after I ask you and before you tell me, I got my little smoothie and it looks so fancy. And look, they matched me again. It's like your nails and everything. Uncanny. Oh, my God.

Well, tell us what's in the smoothie. I don't know. Superfoods. That's going to fix me, I think. Today's the day. Today is finally the day. And then I had them put peanut butter on top of it. Interesting.

How do we, you asked for that? I did, because I just want protein. I'm like, I can't eat food. It's like so hardy of you food. So I'm trying to eat smoothies. But flavor wise, like is that the closest thing I can compare it to it is like maybe a PBJ for it to be peanut butter and fruit and it be tasty. It just love, wait, really? Yeah.

Put peanut butter in your smoothies? No. Really? Ever since I was like five. ever since I got my first hand crank blender. Ever since baby's first Vitamix? Nutra bullet. No.

Does it not taste like, I mean, I get like if it's like a banana one or something. Am I weird for putting peanut butter? I put peanut butter in every single. Like I don't think I've ever had a smoothie without peanut butter. So when I get a smoothie, I'm like, put peanut butter in it. And maybe that's what I'm allergic to. Am I having just constant anaphylactic? You're hindering your own appetite.

Since my first vitamins at age five. So if the, if the smoothie is like, kiwi and mango, you'd put peanut butter in that? I know, but I don't eat that. Okay. So you're only eating really like peanut butter friendly smoothies. I don't fuck with that. Yeah, but like, to me, most smoothies are peanut butter friendly,

except maybe like totally tropical. That's not me. Like smooth. I guess my only smoothie is I get are tropical. Okay, maybe that's the kind of key difference we're having. Because mine are always like very, like, creamy based. So like banana oat peanut butter. superfood, etc.

Interesting. Yeah, no, I'm usually like tropical food and berries. Tropical and berries. Very. I put a lot of berries, but that goes with the peanut butter to me. I don't know. That's interesting. I always thought that was like one of the staple ingredients, but again, we've learned

over and over again. I'm the weird one. I mean, probably not, because I'm thinking also like people put peanut butter in their oatmeal that's full of fruit. Me too. So maybe we're on to something. I mean, maybe I just haven't given it a shop. In my mind, I guess, I mean, I really only go for like a peanut colata flavor. So a peanut butter would be kind of crazy.

Yeah, that would be a little, that would be something I would do. There was a friend of mine. Yeah, there was a friend of mine that used to always say, oh, remember when I met you in third grade? And I was like, stop telling that story. We're like 25. But she'd be like, when I met you in third grade, you were sitting all by yourself. I remember so vividly too. All by yourself in the lunchroom. And by the way, I was like, this is the secret. I wanted to be. alone because I was like doing like a whole bit. I get it. Yeah, thank you. And so, but she was so sweet. And so she came to sit with me. And she's like, I remember it was so sad because you're sitting by yourself and you were

eating a blueberry bagel with peanut butter. And she told this story for years and for years I was like, I don't get it. Like what's so weird about that? And then like one day I was like, what is so fucking, why do you always tell that part? And she's like, because it's so fucking weird. And I was like, it is? I don't think that's super weird. Okay, so now I'm like, am I a peanut better freak?

I guess. Fucking whatever. Maybe that's why I'm always having anaphylactic shock. Okay, fine. I, um. Are you happy now? My, is that still your go-to, no, that's not your go-to bagel anymore? No.

Apparently I ate it one time, got shamed out of it, and have been told ever since that this is a freaky thing I do. So, yeah. And you know what? All I wanted was to sit there in silence. like, you know, have a moment of like, I'm the main character in my emo third grade play, you know? Sure.

No, I get it. My go-to is always the strawberry cream cheese, but I'm very picky. I really want like the most processed strawberry, like, like, I want Einstein's bagels strawberry cream cheese. I cannot stand when it's like. I do love us about you. You are like the opposite of like, you're like so, you're like snobby, but in like the opposite way of like.

I'm snobby about being as like low brow as possible. You know, my stepmother is this way sometimes where she'll be like, don't give me that whipped. Like, we'll go somewhere fancy. I mean, we would in the past. Like, as when we were young, we'd be so embarrassed because she'd be like, don't get me into that whipped butter crap. Like, give me real butter from the container. Like, you know, very just like, you don't mess around with some things. I'm like, I'm a creature of habit.

Why would we josh anything up that needs? Right. Like, you're like, don't put bitters in my juice. Like, just give me juice. Yeah. Like, come on. Or like, like, mac and cheese. I'm like, why on earth would you give me fancy mac and cheese?

Like, I know what I want. The mac and yeah, it's the point. Yeah. Like, if you ever go to like Einstein's or out here, I think it's Noah's, Noah's bagels, which I think they're the same company just on different coast. I believe so as well. But they have like the, it's just, it's just like a pink strawberry cream cheese. And it's not neon pink.

I don't know why, but some of this fucking strawberry cream cheese that they put out there in the world. It's neon pink to let you know it's. strawberry and it's actually it doesn't do anything except crap it's just not good um and i'll stand by that proudly and then and then there's other cream cheese where it's like it's just plain cream cheese but they've chopped up a bunch of strawberries and put it in there and then they call that strawberry cream cheese yeah i get horrified every time i go to a new bagel place and i'll all the one is just strawberry cream cheese take a moment do you know how many times even i've been to a new bagel place with emmese sholz think about it on a tour how many times have i been into a bagel shop i'm

thinking now no wonder Wow, there's so much residual trauma here. I'm thinking back now. I can't stand it. We've probably been to like 40 new bagel, like, I was going to say incidents, like locations together. And you've probably had a psychic meltdown in every one of them. I remember a few where you just sat in the back of the seat and you were sad. And I just remember being like, M got really sad after that bagel place. It's because I really want one specific cream cheese.

It's haunting. And it's, and I can never find it anywhere else. Everyone else puts their own spin on it. And I'm sure, like, there's is fancier. And then I were like, oh, this cream cheese is made of feta whipped up with garlic sprouts. And you're like, I'd rather come back. I literally, like, there's a, there was one place where we went where I was shocked because it was mainly, it was strawberry jam, which was fine. Strawberry jam.

And they mixed it with honey butter and that it became like this whipped strawberry. I remember your. That was incredible. Profound reaction to that. The profundity of that day. strikes me actually in this moment. It was especially special. Just to be safe, I just go with a bacon egg and cheese because I'm like, you can't, that's

the same across the board. And even we know that's not true because we've really been into enough situations in our touring careers that like even that's not true and we know it, unfortunately. I guess that's why I drink because I'm just, unless I'm near a Noah's or Nine Seins, I'll never be happy in Bigel-Land. Oh, that's so tough for you. Yeah, it's tough. It is tough for me.

Thank you. Thank you. I hear you. I hold space. And I drink my go-to, although today it tastes a little different. I don't know what they did. It tastes a little different and not really a good way. Maybe they put some fuck-ass cream cheese in here.

I was about to say, I bet you they put some peanut butter in there for you. It actually kind of tastes like there's peanut butter in it, which is very weird. What is it? It's a London fog. Oh, see, I was going to do a whole bit where whatever you said you were drinking, I was going to pretend like I've also put peanut butter on that and be like, no, that is normal. But I really just couldn't help myself. That's too ridiculous.

Well, the other reason I drink is because last week I sounded like a full-blown man with my voice. And I was like, it's so crazy. I'm not even sick. Very next day I got like the summer flu. Yeah, we tried to all hold out hope for you. Why do you drink, Christine? Oh, I don't know. Apparently I have a freaky relationship to peanut butter that I've got to evaluate.

Yeah. And so thanks for that, everybody. not not that was not meant to be rude that sounded really rude thanks everyone fuck you all thanks for nothing dirt bags uh sorry now i'm now i'm now i'm now i'm now i'm now i'm you're regulated okay we're back to we're back to basics i just got it flamingo because in the shower you're like a flamingo holy christie whoa hang on surprise i get it now i totally Did we all get it for the first time just now or are we the last two? Probably the last two. Let's not hear the answer to that. Let's pretend everybody's on the same page as us. You know, speaking of Flamingo, we were just clean, we've got company coming this week. And so we have been slowly getting through things, decluttering the baskets and all that. And we have now decluttered our shower, which was just like, there was just bottles all over the place. One thing we're keeping in there is that Flamingo shaving cream. That is... It really is nice. It's really nice. It keeps you nice and smooth. and slide all over those legs. Oh my word. Really? Surely. Just like a flamingo. Wow. I'm just

I feel so like, wow, I feel so wise. Okay. The whole kit, don't even worry about it is just $7 and it has a shower holder. For a limited time, our listeners can get the flamingo starter set for only $7 at shopplamingo.com.com slash drink. This set includes the Flamingo original razor, one five blade cartridge, a one ounce foaming shave gel. You got to try it. And a shower holder. Just head to shoppomingo.com slash drink to claim this offer. And after you purchase, they'll ask where you heard about them. So please support our show tell them that we sent you. I, uh,

okay. Well, I have, uh, a story for you. Oh, thank God. And it is the,

it's in Australia. And it's in Melbourne. And it's in, well, it's specific, it's in Victoria. And it's in Melbourne, which is in Victoria.

Melbourne, Victoria. Australia. Got it. Okay. This is the princess theater. And it is a, 1450 seat theater and home to pretty much every show that comes to town. It's like the place.

We're talking like theater plays. The theater. Teita. Teita plays. Okay. It is the oldest entertainment venue on mainland Australia. It is on the National Trust of Australia and it is on the on the on the in the Victorian heritage register. Ooh la la la. Which I'm assuming those are like the national history. Yeah. Yeah. You know, those things. That we also don't know the word for.

In my mind, I was like, I say it every time for American places. So I feel like I should say it. National Historic Registry, I think. Register. Register. National. Why can't I remember it? I've said it a thousand times.

I can't remember it at all. National landmark, historical landmark? Whatever. I've left. I left a long time ago. It's like my head fell off. Yeah. I feel like I should have told you my head fell off too a while ago.

I forgot to like you. It's like our heads rolled off. became tumbleweeds in different deserts but found each other and clunked into each other. Oh, like, holy shit. Where did you come from? I have no clue. Yeah, same. I'm so, so glad we're on the same page.

I feel, I feel how you feel, I imagine. You know what I'm saying? I can only imagine. And it's so scary, isn't it? It's horrifying. Okay. So, Princess Theater. Let's talk 1850s.

Let's talk logistics. 1850. 1850s to the 1870s. Victoria has itself a little gold rush. We have talked about our gold rush way too many ad nauseum. Adnauseum indeed, yes. And basically with this gold rush,

I mean, it was a 20-year-long gold rush. It was very popular in town. People were coming in. It was bringing a lot of wealth. And it actually deemed Victoria this new title of Marvelous Melbourne. So I guess specifically in the Melbourne area. But, um,

it became known as Marvelous Melbourne because it was just popping off that much with gold. And this is a fun fact for you. The mines brought in at that time about 42 million pounds of gold. Ooh. Which equates to 21,000 tons. Sure. Yeah, that makes more sense for me. Thanks.

If, yeah, if you also just don't pay attention to our metric system, it is around 2 million kilograms of gold. Yeah, this is helpful. Thank you for the formula. I, you know, just in case anyone can even relate to any of those numbers. Oh, I've held that much gold before. I know how heavy that is. Oh, I'm worth that weight in gold. That's crazy.

Oh, wait. I have that downstairs in the basement. You just need a mirror and a good attitude. Oh, wow. What's so stunning. Whatever you just said was really enlightening, illuminating. Thank you. Okay.

So. Did you just vomited. Sorry. Never mind about the compliment I gave you. Okay. A load of gold came through the Melbourne area. And basically with so much bustle in the area, for once we're not talking about a hotel, but a venue decided to get built because they're like, well, so many people are in town. I bet we could tell a lot of tickets to different shows.

What's that? You said the venue decided to get built. The venue did decide. She talked to herself. She had a mirror and a good attitude. And she said, we're going to do this. It's like the God spark, you know, like, oh, I just want to see my own creation. It's like the big bag. It just, Poo. All you need is a mirror and a kid at it too. And you're just fucking rock and roll baby. Oh my God.

Okay. So the venue decided to get built, obviously. Hell yeah. Hell yeah. But they were like so many people are coming through. I bet we could sell a lot of tickets to a lot of shows. So let's build something. And they ended up creating this, it was like a barn, like a theater out of a barn or it was barn shaped.

It was kind of a little not its finest form. A little rustic. Yeah. Yeah. and it was called Astley's Amphitheater. Ooh. And it actually, I can't tell if this was like a franchise, but there was also an Astley's Amphitheater in London.

I'm assuming they're the same thing. And they just went, oh, let's have an Australia one. It feels like that could very well be just two people named that. Yeah. I don't know. Maybe. I don't know. I'm sure I could have found out.

I did not spend enough time looking that up. But at this one, they were holding. horse shows, acrobat shows, very circus vibes. They also had a stage for vaudeville. And it opened in 1854. But then three years later, the building was completely redone. I think they realized that this barn was not doing much. And it reopened as the princess's theater and opera house.

Oh, nice. And this, by the way, is the first of many closings, renovatings, reopenings of this place. Okay, okay, okay, we're doing like rebrands over and over. Over and over. Like, eventually I just got, I couldn't even keep up with it. I was like, it's like every 10 years, we're just reopening this thing. But this is the first time it's called the Princess Theater. It's redone again, only 20 years later.

And then it's called the new Princess Theater. It's redone again, another 10, 20 years later. But this time it is being, or it's, it's purchased and owned by this part called The Triumvirate. Whoa. And apparently they were super controversial at the time because they tried to get into the arts but kind of for evil where like they wanted to just capitalize on entertainment. But they didn't really care about like the actors or the artists or were thinking about like local artists. They were just bringing in like famous names and then other people were losing their jobs because of it that were in the area.

They kind of were like the first real like I get master. I guess so. kind of like it was like a big touring company where they had certain names that they had contracts with i mean right so yeah yeah i can get that oh my battery is dying of my camera hold on fun oh there she goes sorry oh it's like she knew she had five seconds left to live okay the triumvirate yeah Jesus Christ this dog the triumvirate triumvirate is it mail time I have no clue smoothies already arrived so what else could be maybe it's my food sensitivity test maybe can you imagine okay it's usually geo's

fucking dog food and i'm like that's for you idiot i get so mad oh my god the triumvirate yes they're super controversial they did not have a passion for drama they were just in it for the money so they were they bought this theater and they're like we could do something real crazy with this they were able to bring in a whole bunch of different types of acts so not just vaudeville not just horse shows. And they decided, BOO! They decided they were just going to start fresh, demolish the entire building, and rebuild it.

It's now called the Princess Theater. It was originally, it was last called the new Princess Theater. This time it was designed by a guy named William Pitt, who was a huge architect of the time, I think especially when it came to building theaters. One thing he did with the princess, this is actually just about the coolest thing I ever did here. He made the world's first theater to have a retractable roof. Oh. So like it could be an amphitheater. Yeah. So like during even just like plays if it was a good night out, they would just open the roof. So you had an open air show. Was this like hand crank? You know, I don't know. But it was like

in the early 1900. So it has to be some mule crank maybe. Some poor man. It's a PA up there just with a rope. That sounds right. Yeah. Um, but so I thought that was super cool. I think it still exists. I think the roof is still retractable today. Wow. The roof is still retractable with a rope and a... Legend has it.

She still opens at night. The PA is still unpaid. Unpaid interns still there. By 1915, there's like a whole other bunch of ownership changes very quickly that I'm not even going to bore you with. And by the 1930s, uh, it's bought by. a film production company. So the, this is a fun fact, I guess.

If you happen to be at this theater, I guess there's an arch in the lobby. And if you look up, there's initials FT carved into the arch. And that was the owner of the film company who bought the place. He was like, I'm putting my goddamn name here because so many people are changing. Right here where the mistletoe hangs. It's what. Yes, that's exactly. That was the full quote, actually.

Yeah, that's what I thought. and then they really cut it could they cut off his romantic part but in 1946 it switches again but now it's hosting operas ballets musicals comedy drama so right around this time is the 1940s so coming up in a hundred years that's when it becomes a catch-all for any sort of entertainment is done here okay um in the 80s it's changed again this time though it is brought to it's what it currently looks like they decided that they were going to renovate it back to like it's 1920s glamour old Hollywood or old vaudeville vibe um so in the 80s they made it look like how it did in the 20s and one of the last big

reopenings they their second show that came out this was in 1989 you don't have to remember any of this i'm just throwing a bunch of fun facts you before i tell you about story i got it all memorized okay 1989 this is actually i think one of the last fun facts I have for you but the during one of their last big reopenings, it was in 89. And the first show after that reopening was Le Miz. After that was Phantom. And when Phantom of the Opera came out in the Cedar, it became the country's longest running show ever. Really?

Yeah. It's got a good song. Which, you know, it's crazy. I don't really care for Phantom of the Opera. I don't know what. You know, it's crazy. I've never seen it. Okay.

I want to. It's not that I did it on purpose. It's just like, and then for a while in the 90s, every time somebody said, oh, Christine, like Phantom of the Opera. And the picture used to scare me because I was a big, big baby. And so I'd always just like be so weird about it. And yeah, I never saw it. But I'm like, I don't know.

I'm like, oh, they have a song about me in that show. I guess in the 80s maybe it was incredible. I think it was a big, like our parents were really into a generation, like they were into it. I guess so. I think Wicked ruined a lot for me. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kind of set the bar.

Yeah, yeah. Got it. But so it was, it lasted for two and a half years at the theater. And then the only other time that there was an incredibly long running show, I think it actually has probably beaten Phantom now, was in 2018 the, you know Harry Potter had a Broadway show.

Yes. Okay. So Harry Potter and the Curse Child. That came to the, the theater. This is fucking banana grams. The theater, I guess it was the third place to ever host the Harry Potter show. It was like New York and then London and then this theater. And they spent because they had to, it wasn't just decorating the stage and paying the cast and all that. They have to like redo the entire theater. So everything was Harry Potter in there.

Like they had to redo the wallpaper, the carpet. They, oh my words. So they really leaned in. It like they made the building look like Hogwarts, basically. and had to like take away from its 1920s look make it look like Harry Potter and then they had to re-renovate everything back when the show left Jesus but they spent $6.5 million on just renovating itself to host Harry Potter this includes and this is a quote from a newspaper article custom Hogwarts themed carpets wallpaper life fixtures and they had a resort to the 19th century detailing they had gilded statues for each of the Hogwarts houses they had new scaffolding on the front of the building. Everything was done, Harry Potter. So it was, or it's still the most

successful show that's ever played in Australia, almost half a million. That would have been really awkward otherwise. Almost half a million people went to that theater to watch it. And then COVID showed up. So then they had to go on hiatus for a year. And then it came back and Harry Potter still played through 2023. Yeah, they were like, well, we still have all the decorations up. We might as well, we might as well fucking do that again. I know. They were like, well, I guess we're just going to keep moving. Wow. Okay, so that's all the fun facts I have for you. Now I'm just going to tell you about their resident ghost. Yeah, I love it, love, I love it. Thank you for sticking with me through the... Sometimes I can't tell if people enjoy the history when it's just fun facts or if they want the full,

like, story. But there's really no like a story to a theater, you know? I mean, there is, and I feel like we got the story, you know? The story is that it changed a lot of hands. Yeah. It all began with Rick Astley, I think, is where we started. That's exactly right. Yeah. I don't know. If Rick Astley had an amphitheater, that'd be very silly. It sounds like he might have, didn't he? I never thought I'd be like a person because I'm so like chaotic to have like a capsule wardrobe. But now with Quince it's like, oh, fall is coming. Let me get out my fall wardrobe.

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Now available in Canada and the UK too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com slash drink. Well, this theater is known for its ghost named, his birth name was Frederick Demidoff, Anatole. No. Sorry. If that person introduced himself, I'd spit my drink out. Like, if I were, that's so rude of me. I'm so sorry.

Anatole Frederick Demidoff Baker. Don't say that. Like Demi Duff, don't be ridiculous. I'm talking to that person, not you. And he goes by Frederici. Yeah, sure. Federer. Sure.

Sure he does. He was born in 1850, which is the year that the gold rush began and I guess and the theater was about to get built. He was born in Italy. He's a famous opera singer and he was in many successful musicals that went on to be big award winners. And in the, it was 1887, he joined the Triumvirate Tori Company. Oh, boy. And so they brought him to Australia. He was going to perform at a bunch of different spots.

Eventually, one of them would be the Princess Theater. and he was cast in a show called Faust. Do you know about Faust? Mm-hmm. Okay. Do you know enough about it to give a summary? Or you want me just say it real quick? You go right ahead.

My mother might hear this. Okay. Great. It's the very, very quick version is that there's a guy who is selling his soul to the devil. And Fred O'Reitchie played the devil. Wow. I'm making it as quick as possible. But the main characters are the guy, the devil,

and the guy that the devil is taking the soul of. Yes. The devil's name is, uh, Mephistopheles, of course. Can you imagine if he was like, I'm actually, my name is Anatole Frederick, Demi Gough, Demi-Doff, Demi-Doff Baker, but I go by Mephistophiles. It's a nightmare.

Well, so he, okay, so he's playing, uh, Mephistophiles, the devil. And during the play, the devil takes the man's soul. and the two of them descend into hell together. And they basically, the way that the show is put out is that the devil links arms with the guy who just sold his soul or like wraps a scarf around the two of them. In some way they're bound as one. And then they're standing on a slow moving trap door that descends them down into hell. And there's like fire and lights everywhere on the stage.

Big deal. well so on opening night of Faust I have a bad feeling about this in 1888 it's opening night and as the trapdoor slowly dropped them the audience noticed that Federici playing the devil he kind of slumped over for a second and caught himself on the trapdoor

and what they didn't know was that they thought it was just an artistic choice but Federici was actually having a heart attack oh I was going to guess that oh no and he was struggling as soon as the trapdoor got down to the bottom of the stage down in the basement. He was carried to the green room. A doctor was called.

They tried resuscitating him, but he died while the show was still going on and none of the cast upstairs knew. And drama. Lucky quote for him. That was his last scene of the show. So like, no, it's not like they waited for like he lost, he missed his cue or something. Well, the show must go on. If you're going to have a heart attack, you better wait until your fucking last. And last line.

Say your last line and then we can be sick. I mean, it really is an artist. You know, and let's put this way, because you're on to something here. Apparently, his ghost also believed in the show must go on because many people in the cast truly didn't think anything was wrong, especially when during curtain call, he was up there with them, bowing. Shut the fuck up. Yeah. So people were like, what do you mean he's dead? He was.

He just bowed. He just bowed. He just bowed. bow. Like, everyone remembers him being on stage with them. That's fucking crazy. I love that his ghost was like, okay, God, I see the white light, but like, let me have this moment.

Like, hang on. Like, hold on one second longer. Also, like, I love that he died playing the devil. Like, it's just something about that. It's really something. And I, you know, God, that's beautiful. There's something about it. Wow.

I just something, something about it. So ever since Federici has. haunted the theater. And I guess people have noticed that lights during performances, even if they've tested them a million times during rehearsal, they'll always glitch during a performance. I wonder like what time that's at, because maybe it's like the moment he died or maybe it's, I wonder if there's something there. Yeah, the heart attack. Yeah. Ooh. People have seen him gliding past the stairs. They felt, uh, him rushing. I love that he started gliding in his afterlife. He's like, if I'm going to stay in this fucking theater, might as well have built in like, like,

It's like I might be use my feet. Yeah, what the fuck do you think I am? Yeah. People have felt him brushing past them. They've seen him like next to a bunch of boxes and he is like kind of shuffling around. People, which I love that he's just shuffling. He's either gliding or shuffling. It's one or the other.

Yeah. People have felt something touched their back. People have felt their shoulders get touched. People have felt their hair get played with. He's been seen sitting in the dress circle, which in theaters, That's like the, that's my favorite spot to sit. It's the front row of the mezzanine or like the very first balcony. Oh, okay.

The very first ball. It's orchestras on the floor or the pit and then the pit isn't like the center. And then there's the mezzanine and then there's the balcony. Okay. The mezzanine, the front center, that is where people see him now. If I died in the theater, that's also where you would see me. Because it's the best view in my opinion. Yeah.

Some people are like, I want to be right up, but I want them spitting on me. And I'm like, okay, I don't know. No, no. But I guess what's funny about this is he's seen during rehearsals, but some people have claimed that they see him like so dramatically reacting to their performances when he's unhappy. Like, they'll see him like brushing hair out of his face and he's like super impatient and he's like taking notes. I guess he's like doing, he's like making motions that suggests that he's like critically judging them. which is like and in the best seat in the house too so it's like oh man like he's got a perfect view of us sucking right now shit and like you better you better be perform well under pressure because at that point like the pressure's on i know yeah um and so now actually the see that they always see him in on opening nights they'll reserve it for him as like an offering uh for good luck and people also see him on stage uh i don't know if this is during performances but

they'll see him on stage or walking in the aisles and apparently he's like dressed to the nine so maybe he does know like on opening nights I'm supposed to look my best or I mean clearly he knows on one one firefighter this was not during an actual show but while the theater was open I guess an alarm went off and a firefighter was trying to turn it off it wasn't working and so he tried to open a bunch of windows to let the smoke out or to see if that would turn the smoke alarm off and in my mind he should have just opened the whole roof. With the big crank, yeah. But I guess he like freaked out because while he was doing that,

he saw a tall, dark shadow of a man on stage with the eyes of a cat. Mostophiles. Yeah. Holy shit. Or like the gelical cats. I don't know. That's what I mean. Isn't that a name of a character in fucking cats or am I dreaming?

Is it? I haven't seen cats in so long. I've never seen cats either. I've never seen it my life. That, it would be funny if it was just a jellical cat and it was just makeup. Yep, look it up, look it up. Also, are there two major plays? Oh, Mr. Mastophiles, but it's spelled like ridiculous, you know, and the original Mastophiles is like with like the pH and.

Isn't that funny that there are two characters named Mastophiles and he's. I mean, I think it's like an homage to the, yeah. Oh, it's an homage to the guy from Phantomte. I think because the. Perfoust? to the original character from German folklore. Because, yeah, Mistopheles, the cat is spelled like with Fs and E's and in almost like a comical way. But that is, like, what are the odds, though, that he played Mistophiles and died, and now he looks like a different Mistophiles.

He's probably like, yeah, I get that one too. Just because I died before, cats doesn't mean I don't get to, like, embody the wearing the contacts, you know? That's so, I didn't even put that together, but that's so, oh, that's extra weird. creepy the fact that it was cat-eyed, but I tell you what, that's, he's probably just testing out the contacts. He's like, yeah, you're right. And he likes a play on word. He's like, I could be any Mastaflis I want in this theater. Um, that's funny. I didn't even put that together, Christine. I've never seen any of these plays. Well, never seen Faust, never seen cats, never seen, well, my lights just flickered, no shit. Uh, never seen, um, Phantom of the Opera. So, what can I do? As a, as a, as a spout bullshit.

This guy's clearly a theater lover and he's like, you haven't seen any of my shows. So he, sorry. His firefighter left freaking out. He was like, I just saw a tall man. He's got the eyes of a cat. A gelical cat. A gelical cat. It's only now hitting me.

That's very funny. But they have said the, I guess the manager of the theater, he said that Federici, this is a quote, is very much a benevolent presence. nothing nasty ever happens he's more of a friendly poltergeist so i guess okay i think friendly and poltergeist are silly words to put back to each other i'm gonna say especially when we're talking german devil folklore like in the mix i start to get a little iffy on like can you give me a little more clarity on what those words mean to you yeah yeah because like yeah poltergeist to me is something and to you it's clearly something else also in the world the semantics doesn't poltergeist mean like noisy

ghosts. Like you imagine a noisy ghost in a theater where you have to be quiet. Also a German folklore. I don't love all this. You know and you know it comes from German folklore. Only bad things. Like only bad shit. Only like cutting off the thumbs and like eating people, children. And it's just like mess. It's just a mess. The Germans are their own breed, it seems. That's, uh, I mean, we're like just, it's just a traumatic thing happening over there. Yeah. Uh, investigators have come here to look for Federici because they are really hoping that they'll catch him. Yeah. There was a whole bunch of videos online. There was a whole bunch of videos. And fun fact, the restaurant in the building is named Federici after him as well. Oh, that's not. I bet he

loves that. I would love it if when I die there's a restaurant named after me. Oh my God. Yeah, but you'd be so, you'd be like, they put strawberries in the whipped cream and they're chopped up and this is not going to. You'd, they'd find it on the ground every day and they'd have to call in a psychic to be like they don't like the ghost doesn't like this cream cheese i feel like they should have there should be a restaurant out there this is such a bad business practice but i feel like there should be i was like i was like it's already a terrible idea but i can't wait to hear it a restaurant named after someone who's like the the ghost of the building and you use either dowsing rods or a wegeop ward or go ghost hunting first and have them make the menu so that way you know that you're pleasing them right so either

demons or a bunch of children or victorian dead people are going to be telling you what to eat i'm sure it'll be delicious. Could be anything. I don't know. I would love if someone came to where I used to be and then they gave me an option and said, what food should we offer this or that? I'm sure you would. I'm sure you would. I'm sure you would want me to touch your skeleton while we're at it too. So I do not. And I'd have a good time, by the way. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, that's the princess theater. Very good. I got to close out of my Mephistophiles. Mephistophiles. I'm going to look it up.

Yeah, I was saying it wrong. Mephistophiles. It's like super fun times, yeah. Yeah, my mom taught German literature or teaches German literature, and that's her PhD. So I try to avoid anything in that area to be in my kind of conscious arena, you know? You just, it's safe. It's a safe call. It's a safer place without it.

if you can imagine. Also, oh, it comes from, that makes total sense. Mephisto. Oh, Mephisto is the, essentially the devil in Marvel comics. Yeah, yeah, yeah, interesting. Methasopheles is a demon featured in German folklore. So maybe I'll just cover, um, Mephistophiles one day. It's a lot there.

Mephistophilus, that's what it is. Uh, yeah, the cat, creepy. I don't know. Hey, which category are you overspending in? The categories are a- Pokemon. All of them. Every aspect of my life. Oh, all of them. Mine is surely in their takeout probably or delivery, you know, it's a big one. But Rocket Money helps me deal with that. It helps me get a clear picture, might I even say a colorful picture of how I spend my money. And it helps me put money

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Which is the rule, number one. To do it by your... M literally lost every rule and talk to the DM. and girl instead of not. I heard you when you were saying it. I just didn't retain a lick of it. I went, uh-huh, uh-huh, okay. And then Em just, it was like, it was like, when you see the, the girl enter the elevator

on the fifth floor and M goes, I'll tell her. It's none of her business. Like, do not speak to her. It's like, what the fuck you already? And then Em's like, well, we'd be in it together. And I'm like, do you don't remember rule number one is never go in it with another person? I'm telling you. And then I say, memorize the sequence of numbers.

And I'm goes, I just tried it. It didn't work. And I'm like, I didn't say press them. And then five minutes later, I'm like, remember the sequence of numbers? And you're like, nope. Oh, my God, we're going to die. You owe me. Okay?

Let's put that way. Do you remember every investigation we ever went on where the one rule was don't bring alcohol? And you went, huh? Okay. And then you just brought a bra of wine. Or you would just shatter. shatter glasses everywhere.

Do you remember when I coerced you into doing a Ouija board 13 times? And that was also my fault. So you know what? So, elevator time. Maybe I got to get on this fucking elevator to hell. Yeah, you know, we talked about how it's an elevator like from Faust, he's going to hell.

And apparently some people call that game the elevator to hell. Anyway, I hated every second of it. Thank you. And now I'm going to get it. back to an even worse reality, which is the story I'm telling today. Perfect. Yeah, that's a good segue. Here we go.

So the story I have for you today are the murders of Chad Choice and J.C. Lavasser. We go all the way back to October of 1994 when 80-year-old James Clark, known as J.C. Levaser, was spending the morning as he often did, selling produce along Texas Highway 155. J.C. was retired and living in Berryville with his wife, Annie Bell, very, like, picturesque Texan situation. And for a decade, basically what they do is that did was grow fruits and vegetables and, like, shared with their neighbors and then, like, sold what was left over for cool. But it's very, very Americana, very bartering and, yeah. Totally. And just like, like, hyperlocal, you know. Yeah. So love that for J.C. and Annie Bell. Um,

But on this early October morning, J.C. disappeared from his fruit stand. Very quickly, his truck was discovered just down the road abandoned in the middle of the road. And pretty soon after that, a man discovered J.C.'s body in the woods just off the road where he had been shot to death. Oh, my God. Now, like, imagining this right, like Americana situation, it was a complete shock to the community. J.C. was well known and liked by his fellow, like, produce. vendors by his community, his neighbors, his customers. Yeah, it was just unimaginable why somebody would do this to this kind, old, retired dude. Yeah, guys, it sounds like he's friends with everybody.

Yes. And police quickly ruled out robbery as a motive as well, because there was cash in his pocket and at the produce stand. So it's not like somebody held up the produce stand. And then, you know, very strange, very strange. So soon reports came in from witnesses who claimed to have seen two men attempting to leave in J.C.'s truck, but struggling with the standard transmission and eventually bailing when the truck stalled out. So now they're thinking, well, maybe this was a failed carjacking, and they're trying to get his truck, and that's he was killed over the dispute or what have you. Okay. So J.C. was survived by his wife, a daughter, brother, grandchildren, many friends in the community who were left reeling. So now we rewind a bit because years earlier on October 13th, 1991,

Karen Choice began her Sunday, as she usually did. And these stories, if you can't guess, end up connecting. So just to be clear. Yes. But we're going to Sagu back to 1991, a couple years earlier. Karen Choice begins her Sunday, as usual, has a cup of coffee, goes to service at the Christian teaching center, which is the church she attended in Tyler, Texas. The whole family was very rooted in their church community. Karen had studied faith-based counseling alongside her nurse administration degree in college and was a very involved member of the church. And this particular Sunday was a big deal because it was Karen's 41st birthday. So she decided she was going to go to church alone and celebrate with her friends while her kids slept in. So she left them at home that morning without waking anybody up. And during the service, she gets a phone call. One of her daughters calls the church to ask whether Chadwick was.

was with Karen. An eight-year-old Chadwick, who went by Chad, was the youngest of Karen's four children. His older siblings had woken up that morning and had known their mom was at church, as expected, but then they realized Chad was not home with them. And they were like, well, that's weird. So Karen left church, immediately began searching the neighborhood for Chad alongside family, friends, and churchgoers. Everyone hoped that Chad had just like woken up and somehow wandered off without telling anyone. Did you, by the way, sorry, this is kind of a side note, but like, this is such a fearful thing. Like, did you ever wake up at home and, like, nobody was there? Or, like, you couldn't find anybody? There was a few times, uh, I didn't, not waking up, but when I would come home from school and I thought my mom was going to come home and she came home way later. And I just assumed, like, a car crash or like, where is she? What is? There's like this primal fear, I feel like, like, like, being home and like not knowing. Because I remember like viscerally one time waking up.

and it was like too late in the day. And I remember like nobody was home and I was like I was supposed to be. I mean, it had like the and what had happened was that the neighbor's house had like caught on fire over and like there had been this like huge like event. And so it was like something scary, but it was like, well, like everything got kind of, I don't know. It's a very unsettling feeling to like realize someone's just like van. It's definitely, it was definitely scary like as like a kid because like it was so rare

that I wasn't next to one. to my parents and when it did happen and it was unexpected. I like it was so your brain just doesn't know where to land. Yeah. Out of sorts. Yeah. I was like you're supposed to be here. Where are you? Yeah. Yeah. It's really unsettling. And so like this and it's an eight year old, right? I mean, it's not obviously it's like where would he go. It's not like a two year old where you say like, oh God, he wandered off. Not that it's better if it's a two year old or what happened. It's like the mindset of like what would this eight year old be doing. So they're they're looking around the name. neighborhood, but like they're kind of like, we don't think if he's not around here in the neighborhood,

we don't know where he would be unless something bad has happened, you know? She said he, like Chad liked to play and could be mischievous, but like, that's not, he's not like, he's just a little kid. Like, he's not going to be wandering away from home for any reason. So Karen soon reported Chad missing to the police who visited the home. They observed there was no sign of a forced entry or anything like that. and so, or robbery. And so they were like, oh, well, maybe he ran away, right?

And of course, she's like, I promise you he did not run away. And she genuinely was like, I can't understand this except that he's been kidnapped. Like somebody's taken him. Right. There's no other explanation. And so she's just like terrorized by this. For two days, she remained within reach of the home phone at all times, just waiting, like hoping, like probably frozen, right? Like hoping anybody will call.

but instead her brother Greg Sterling who owned a funerary business called Sterling mortuary found a letter on the front step of the funeral home and it was a ransom note from the kidnappers. Wow. Somehow they had taken Chad from his home in the middle of the night days earlier without making a sound and they were now demanding that $10,000 be left for them at a Greyhound bus station in exchange for Chad's release. they made it clear they would kill Chad if their demands were not met and they also warned the family that they had a contact within the family

who could tip them off about any police involvement and that's fucking terrifying like also someone in your circle is a snitch and is gonna tell us if you call the police what the fuck like this is so mean you can't trust anybody

fucking mind games on top of everything else and on such a sliver of the problem but like the betrayal trauma or whatever to have like someone knows and or someone somebody in our circle can't be trusted and has like potentially done harm yeah something really

terrible knows that a kid is in danger facilitated yeah and they're not going to do anything about it and yeah oh my God ooh I mean it's chilling especially when you're someone who's like in a community that's the whole point I mean both of these people actually interestingly it's like very much like community based stuff yikes okay so

anyway Um, Karen, of course, now her mind's spinning, right? She's like, who the hell could, could it have been? Um, but investigators start to think like, well, maybe it's Greg, her brother, uh, the one who found the note on the mortuary or on the funerary steps. Um, so this would have been Karen's brother, Chad's uncle. And it seemed most likely, I mean, we know how this is, like abductions and things are most often by somebody close to the family. or close to the child who's gained some sort of trust with the child. And so it made sense that somebody close to the family like an uncle would have abducted Chad

because they could have taken him quietly without having to enter the home by force. So soon after the ransom note arrived, Karen received an anonymous phone call from someone who claimed Greg or brother had been kidnapped to be extorted for a drug debt owed by a family member. Okay. So now the Tyler Police Department gets the FBI involved because they're like, this is getting very complicated. And Chad's case is aired on America's Most Wanted. So things are lighting up, but the leads just go nowhere. The FBI questioned Greg about his potential involvement, the uncle.

He denied it. He offered to provide a briefcase full of cash for Chad's release. Like, okay, guy. Thanks. Go off King, I guess. Whatever. The FBI organized a sting operation at the Greyhound Station and Greg himself delivered the ransom. Oh, so, okay, sorry.

He did literally show up with briefcase. I had forgotten that that actually happened as it was so literally explained in his previous offer. But also, if we think it's Greg and he just brought ransom to his own stick up and, like, knew nobody was going to be there, then it wasn't that much of a, like, a risk to put his own. money out there. True enough point. Yeah. Although then, hmm, I don't know. I'm thinking. I'm thinking. What town is this in? Tyler, Texas. Tyler, Texas. Do we know the population? Like, how big of a case was this for the locals? I mean, Tyler, I know Tyler, Texas. I think it's one of those like towns that's outside of a big town. Okay. Sure, sure. You know what I mean? Like a medium-sized town. Yeah, I think so.

I'm pretty sure. Oh, it's known for its Rose Gardens. That's right. roses. You know what? Roses have been stalking me and I almost, almost brought it up in the intro because... We're bringing up now. Roses, roses. I literally, I know, because it keeps haunting me. And so every time I see a rose now and they're everywhere and like Leona literally came back from the playground the other day and said, look what a little girl gave me. And it was like three roses. And I was like, what? She said, oh, she didn't speak English, but she just walked over and handed me these after we played in the sandbox. And I was like, that's a little girl.

so sweet, but like everywhere these damn roses. And then every time I hear roses, roses that I fear that I'm creating this horrible loop of like my own reality is becoming. You're accidentally chanting a manifestation. I know. And it's, it's, it's harming me to the core of my being. Roses. Yeah. So Tyler Texas is known for the Rose production, I guess. But the population, do we know that? Oh, uh, uh, a, 105 the 38th most populous city in Texas. Oh, holy shit. So it's huge.

Okay. Yeah, it seems pretty. I mean, everything in Texas feels pretty big. It's named after the 10th president of the U.S. Fun. Also, a fun fact about John Tyler is that, you know, like about his grandson? No? What's happening?

No. Oh, John Tyler, he like had a son at like 80 years old and then that son had a son at like 80 years old. And so. I know you were going to do this to me. So his grandson, Jeff, like, he's like one of the earliest presidents and he had only two generations away from his grandson who just died in like 2020 or something. I remember when that was like a news article and I remember my brain going, we're not going to comprehend this. So, no, it won't remain cognizant. So his great grandson is alive right now.

That's crazy. Yeah. Alive and well living in Tyler, Texas. I hope so. That'd be cool if you were in the town. Can you hear this stupid dog? No. I'm not going to snitch on that beautiful baby.

Yeah. Well, I will. He's running all over the place. That would be fun if you lived in a town named after your great-grandpa. Yeah, you'd be such a fucking annoying. I'd be so annoying. You'd be like, that guy. And then, like, if he invites everybody for dinner, he'd be like, we have to go.

Like, his great-grandpa, like, invented the town. Like, we can't say no to a dinner party. Like, it would be so annoying. You heard about the table. The town in... Stop saying you heard about, because you know I have it, and it's going to make my brain hurt. What?

What now? What now? The town, Michigan, the town hell in Michigan? Oh, yeah. I mean, I know about that, because Ohio loves to use that against them, weaponize it. Oh, it's like for sale for like, it was very under, under, it's, I don't know what the right word is, but it, the number was a lot lower. And they knew people would, like, fight to pay to be the new mayor of hell,

Michigan. But the guy... You get to be the mayor? Is that how that works? It's like a, it's a very small town and the guy who like operates it. He like he had like, I'm not kidding, he has an ice cream place called the screamery. He has a... Mr. Mistopheles. Is that his name? Because it feels like that... He's actually a gelical cat. I mean, honestly, he might wear those fucking contacts. There's a mini golf in hell, Michigan. There's like, it's a bunch. It's like one main street of just a bunch of little stores that he operated and he's like ready to retire and give it to somebody else who wants to run like a tourist attraction. And so you get to be the mayor of hell. And I, I did think about it, but I was like, I don't know if I really want to live in Michigan, but if I,

if I was feeling, thank you. Soundbite. If I was feeling impulsive, which I, Ohioans, I got you a good soundbite. I, um, here's the thing. Imagine I'm the mayor of hell. We all know I want to be the mayor or something. Be the mayor of hell where the main businesses there are mini golf and ice cream. You've already got the cape. Hank could be the hellhound. Please. Like, are you kidding?

Let's not be ridiculous. Like, the ridiculous thing is that I didn't do it. Get Michigan on the horn. Someone call hell. Scrub the part where M said they never want to move to Michigan because hell is in Michigan. And by the way, I don't want to move there because I love California, not because I hate Michigan. Scrub that part too, because we might need the first part as blackmail. I just know that I saw everybody's DMs to me.

I did have a sit down with myself and think like, I could do this. I was like, I could do this for sure. One of you was in a cape and one of you wasn't. And you were both like, all right, let's talk this out and be reasonable. I did think I was like, that would be kind of a great business opportunity. I feel like as in that's why I would drink. We should have bought it and like. Yeah, every time M comes to me with a business opportunity.

I'm like, what town are we buying? We can't, like you and I though, we can't, we can't do something normal. Like, you know, ever. I was going to expand on that. But you're right. That's the end of the sentence. But imagine, and that's where I drank, owns hell. Like, come on.

Is this another, are you doing a sneaky thing? Is this like a sneaky thing? Like, I already bought it. Oh my God. Open your checkbook is zero. What's a checkbook? Nobody knows. I did think about it.

I did think about it. I did think about it. On my soul. Ugh. Everyone hop aboard the Mintmobile. That's a. trick because if you haven't already, then what are you doing? You're listening to me?

I think they were just on their bad Wi-Fi and on their bad phones and they just didn't, they didn't even hear you. They had no reception. Oh, I've heard that one before. Right now, Mint Mobile has a summer sale. Right now, all of Mint's plans are $15 per month, even unlimited. So free yourself from big wireless and their gimmicks and gotchas and switch to Mint for high-speed data and coverage on the T-Mobile 5G network.

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Where are we now? Oh, God. Oh, Tyler, Texas. I was asking about the population because I wanted to know, if like this was like if it was a very small town Roses Rose everybody would know about this but if it's that big of a town I feel like it's kind of getting like under the radar like people yes it's a pretty big town and it's it got TV airtime but even when the I feel like the fact that the airtime on TV on America's Most Wanted like national syndicated programming that didn't get enough leads like that was already a rough start like I agree it's It's a big deal, but it's not a big enough deal that it's creating enough frenzy around it to get an answer. So, yeah, the leads were slim. Greg shows up with the briefcase and drops it off.

And investigators are waiting in hiding nearby. And of course, like the most dramatic thing ever, they're dressed as like, which I'm like, they're dressed as, they're disguised as like bus travelers, which I'm like. feels like you have to put effort into disguising your house as a bus traveler I think you're already I was just it feels like a heist this feels like a silly little quest all the sudden it feels like you're like yeah it feels like we don't do we need to dress like go in disguise I mean I guess maybe it's not quite as like it sounds a little comical to me the way that it's presented in the especially when you watch any sort of like episode about this and it's reenactment style sure it's like like an obvious costume or something they're dressed they put a mustache on um but an hour

passed, right? And nobody shows up to collect the ransom. So, um, they're very good disguises of being bus passengers went to waste. What a tragedy. Um, so of course now they're like, yeah, well, Greg, clearly you're like what you said, basically. If he were involved, like he would bring the money to prove he weren't involved. It's not really that great of an alibi. Yeah. It's like, it's like, it's like I could, I could say right now like, oh, I'm, I found a ransom note and don't pay attention to the fact that it's my handwriting, but it says that I should give myself $100,000 and it won't ever leave the bank account. Oh, no. It's so nice that I happen to have this briefcase from my, from deal or no deal. Right. And it's, is he one of the people also in disguise

for his own? Because it sounds like, oh, no, no, no, that would be criminal minds terrude territory. Okay, because I was going to say, that'd be so silly. He's like, and I know just the thing for myself to give myself money about the ransom letter. I wrote myself. He's like, and this is my disguise. Oh my God. I put in eye cat eye contacts and we're good to go. Nobody will suspect the thing. No one will ever know who I am,

not even me coming my own way. And literally, literally so is it, Greg? Yeah. Oh, fuck immediately. Greg, nobody, you are literally stand out a mile away. So anyway, this Greg, they are, it's just horrible. It's horrible.

It's horrible. they suspected that like somehow Greg is involved whether he actually did anything harmful himself or whether he was just somehow facilitating like the whoever was evading capture here or perhaps he was like the inside contact mentioned in that in the letter but they couldn't prove it right and so meanwhile poor Karen is like dying I mean dying right of a broken heart Like she says she can't breathe. And every time she thinks of Chad, which I can only imagine is every second. Every second that feels like a thousand hours.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Like she just can't breathe. She's gasping for air. And I mean, this goes weeks into months. So just like total turmoil for her. A year later, October 14th, 1992, Karen was leaving for work at 7.30 in the morning when she discovered a note on her car.

This is also so cruel this like waiting between. long periods of time and then like coming back up. I mean, it's haunting. Yeah. She was terrified. Um, but like also there's this like hope, right? Suddenly like, oh, a ransom note. Like maybe this will finally give me my son back or at least answers. Um, part of the ransom note read, I guess you have suffered enough. Even though he misses you a lot, he will never see you again unless you cooperate with me. Jesus Christ. Oh my God. I'm I mean, like, how do you not have a heart attack from the stress? I mean, I don't know how she's even going to work at this point, right?

No, I just assume you don't go to. If you were, well, you have to, right? Like, if you're, I mean, you've. Yeah, I got bills to pay. At some point, you have to live life, which is, I think, probably the hardest part. Yeah, so now she's just totally rocked by this. The kidnappers are demanding $6,000 and no police involvement. And they wrote, last time death came close upon your son because of your stupidity,

because of police involvement claiming, you know. A forensics review of the note failed to recover any prints or useful evidence. And that was like it for years. Like basically they were like, we don't know if this is a hoax. We don't know if this is like real, but we can't do anything to prove it. And that's it. So this woman is being just tortured, right? Years pass and Chad's case goes cold.

Karen, though, despite knowing the statistics about missing persons, really truly believed that somehow she would get an answer before she died. October of 1995, four years after his disappearance, a box was delivered to Chad's family. I don't even want to know what's in that box. I mean, you don't. I've seen law in order. I mean, really, like. The box never has a thank you note or something.

No. It's never anything good. Um, no, no. Four years later. Part. It is. Okay. It says there's a note that reads,

you only paid part, so here is a part. What part? Ear, hand, finger. No, what? His skull. Okay. There's nothing else to say except, okay. I mean, I'm sorry, that's just like, uh-huh.

It's, okay, here's also, like this woman is literally in hell, like actual hell. now this happens to her. And like the only hope, like literally the only hope she has left is like, this couldn't possibly be my literal child's skull. Right. You have just full denial. You have to. How could you not? How could you like believe that? You have to just pray. It's some, it's not. That's all you have to pray. And so they do DNA analysis. Do you think it can get worse? No, because it's inconclusive. And they're like, well, so we don't even know. So now no answers. So now it's like you have this new hellish option on the table that you do. didn't even think was possible.

Just a nebulous maybe, and then you'll never actually have closure. So it just gets worse, yeah. Oh, my fucking God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. I mean, it's, and he'd been too young for, like, dental x-rays, so they couldn't even compare teeth. It's just, like, nightmare. So detectives involved Dr. Harold, Jill King to examine the remains using forensic

anthropology. And finally, like, this is the forensic files, like, you know, spotlight, uh, computer models, photos of Chad. were able to kind of use, because this was such early days, right, of DNA testing, they weren't able to do that quite as well, but they were able to use like forensic models and determine that it unfortunately was, in fact, Karen's eight-year-old son. So that came back conclusive. And with that closure, yeah, I want to say like with that partial or with that answer, I should say.

Sure. Karen, like her devastation turned into like rape. Of course, of course. And no one would blame her. Right. No, no. I mean, it's just, yeah. But now there's like this certainty that Chad is gone.

But also like now months pass and there's no and there's this rage but no where to direct it. Right? Because you're still like who did this? We don't know. So there is the, you know, my first thought, uh, when I asked like, was it like, what kind of body part was it? Cause it's like, at least, at least, which is like, I'm saying that's so. So, you know, take it, take it how you assume I mean the best.

But at least he's gone and not suffering somewhere or being tortured somewhere. But you don't even know if he was being tortured beforehand. So like, my guess is that he was probably killing. pretty immediately. It feels like with this kind of thing. I would still be so my part of the rage would be me still not knowing how much he suffered or endured beforehand. And not having answers to like what what happened what he was going through. I mean yeah, it's all yes, it's just bizarrely a nightmare that like she just cannot wake from. Oh my God. Yeah. And she's just like, I mean to taunt somebody it just feels so absurd that you would even be doing this um especially seemingly for like no

reason for what right like did like who had a vendetta at all that even though this is so strange so unwarranted but like who thought that she deserved this and why this woman right exactly it's it's just horrifying um so months pass again and in the meantime police had made arrest in a completely or at least seemingly unrelated case, two armed robberies of a Texas credit union that took place in the spring of 96. And when they found out they had been caught on surveillance cameras, which were installed after the first robbery, Chris Wells and Gene Lindsay confessed to committing the robberies. And then Chris named Patrick Pat Horn as the organizer, like the head honcho of both robberies. So Gene offered more information in hope of bargaining a better outcome for himself.

and he described having some info on Pat. They're like leader. And he said Pat had murdered this 80-year-old man named J.C. Levasseur in a failed carjacking at his fruit stand. Okay. So you remember that first story. Gene told police that J.C., who he only knew as the old man, had shown them how to drive the truck, which is how it ended up down the road. And afterward, according to Gene, Pat made J.C. exit the truck. Gene told Pat to let J.C. go.

but Pat said J.C. had seen their faces and couldn't be allowed to live and was killed. Jean insisted J.C. would not be trouble for them and they let him go, but Pat wouldn't back down. This is at least how he's explaining this to the cops when he's like ratting out his boss guy. Knowing they would not be letting him go, J.C. tried to run and Pat shot him in the back of the head. And so now he's telling police this as like a bargaining chip, right? Pat would eventually be convicted for the robberies and J.C.'s murder, but after being arrested for both crimes. He then tried to leverage information he had about a crime. So Pat says he has information on Chadwick's murder and kidnapping and murder. And this intrigues police because

he is actually very close with the family. So. Oh, shit. There you go. Karen had known Pat since he was five years old. He used to come to her house to play with her kids. He was actually just 17. when Chad disappeared. And so I don't think he was even on her radar at this point. Pat told investigators he had witnessed Chad's murder committed by two local drug dealer. Oh, so horrifying. Local drug dealers, Luis Carlos Castillo and Silvio Ulloa Castanada. And I guess they were referred to as Carlos and Paco.

And Pat said he had been forced to dig Chad's grave. This is the information that he's giving to police as like more bargaining. investigators initially received alibis for both of these men Carlos and Paco and they considered that maybe Pat was lying and he actually didn't know anything about the case and it had invented this story until a package mailed to Pat in jail was intercepted where he was incarcerated and inside was a child's leg bone and a letter threatening Pat against sharing any further information about Chad's case and they send that to jail and think like no one's going to notice this.

Oh my God. Oh my God. Mizarro. In desperation to know what happened to her son and like wanting the rest of his remains, Karen met with Pat during an interrogation. And in the footage of the interrogation, she said, I treated you like you were my son. Like he would come over and play at their house. Wow.

Always welcome in my house, fed you, prayed for you. What about Chad? Do you want to see a picture to remind you? Don't you want to see his picture? I need to know, Pat. I need to know. And when Pat sat still and said nothing, Karen got on her knees in front of him, put her hands on his shoulders, and began to beg. Yeah.

She said, Pat, Pat, I've got to know. Oh, my God. And, oh, my God, it makes me sick to my stomach. Pat stood up and began pacing, cursing, and sobbing, but refused to say anything. Oh, my God. Tell her. Days later, he told investigators that Carlos and Paco made him bury Chad in his own backyard. Oh, my God.

And in May of 96, he led them to the grave. And in a later interview, Karen said, all the years of hoping that he'd come home at that very moment, you know, it was over. And that was like the closure, the tragic closure, like not the closure she wanted, you know. So Pat's brother, Keith, I don't even, I've never heard that name. Keithen was in jail elsewhere on a probation violation. And investigators on Chad's case spoke to him, he went by Keith, who confessed. that Carlos and Paco had never threatened Pat at all. In fact, Pat had convinced Keith to deliver Chad's remains to both Chad's family and Pat's jail address. And Pat told Keith to write the letters as well.

That was the thing, too, for me was like, why would this, like, we were saying that too. Like, why is this person who's taunting this woman? It's clearly personal. Yeah. I don't know. It's awful. Investigators finally concluded that it was Pat Horn himself who had kidnapped and murdered. eight-year-old Chad choice. And all of this is just like he had made up this sort of drug story to like cover up the fact that he had done this to like a little boy. Okay.

So in autumn of 1999, eight years since Chad had been kidnapped from his bed, Pat Horn was convicted for Chad's murder and sentenced to death. Um, Karen found no sense of peace in the sentencing. She said, I have to say, and a lot of people don't agree with me. I basically don't believe in the death penalty. Pat Horn's death is not going to bring Chad back. I would like for him to close his eyes and see Chad's face, you know, and realize not only did he take my baby's life, you know, but his is over as far as anything he could do successfully. Maybe we'll give him time to think about the havoc and the hurt that he is torn through this family.

Wow. And ultimately, his sentence was all. altered to life in prison. Because he had been under the age of 18 when the crime had occurred, there was like an unc- it was ruled unconstitutional to execute anyone who had committed a murder under the age of 18. So still, you know, didn't bring Chad home. His remains were used as evidence in Pat's conviction and Pat's defense team could request

access to Chad's remains again in the future if they needed to, which also is just like an extra slap in the face that they just like have. access, easy access for their own case. Like, it's just kind of sick. Oh, my God. Due to legal technicalities, Chad's remains, which they call the evidence, uh, cannot be released unless Pat signs a waiver. So like, oh, that's evil. Isn't that diabolical? Um, Pat had signed the waiver, but it got lost by his somewhere between the attorney and the judge. The letter got lost, wouldn't you know. Pat needs to sign a new waiver if he wants to happen.

Sounds like he was talked out of it because he now staunchly refuses to do so. I'm sure his lawyers were not happy with the first time he did that. For more than a month, he refused to speak with anyone regarding the waiver. And the assistant district attorney said, we have found ourselves in a very, very strange position because now they're like, where's the letter? Like, he claims he signed it. Somewhere it got lost. Where is it?

God, oh my God. Oh, my God. But yeah, he just refused to say anything or sign another one. So Chad Choice was finally, finally laid to rest in a family cemetery plot in 2003 more than a decade after his kidnapping, which, like, you'd think he'd be 18. Like, that's just crazy. Wow. Oh. Karen and Pastor Flora Cobb worked together with the congregation at Christian Teaching Center to operate a new ministry called C-H-A-D Church's Hour Against Darkness, and they run a shelter.

called Chad's house, which takes in people in crisis. And that includes things like people experiencing homelessness, sexual trauma, substance use disorders, financial hardships, domestic violence, other people in need. And in 2007, Karen was still the director at Chad's house when she unexpectedly died at the age of just 56. Wow. But years later, in 2022, Chad's family announced they once again plan to support their community in Chad's memory.

They did kind of like an environment. event, like a memorial event on his 30, what would have been his 39th birthday. His older sister, Angela, spoke with ABC, East Texas about a new foundation that was going to help support children's hobbies. And she said that Chad loved sports and playing outside. And their mother would have wanted Chad to be able to try any sport in the world that he wanted to try and find out what he loved. So the cost of participating in all of these things is so astronomical sometimes. especially like when you think of the the gear, the transportation, all that stuff is prohibitive to so many families.

So the Chad Choice Family Foundation would work with families to make their children's, like, extracurricular dreams possible, which is very cool. Yeah. So that's like a really cool outreach program or like, you know, program that they're creating. Angela felt a responsibility to show support to families in crisis as well, the way hers was when they lost Chad to offer. like that same sense of community of people who felt like that shock wave go through their family. She said, I felt that our families needed to show a unified front because there are other families that have gone through a tragic situation like ours and even more so from 1991 up to this very day.

If we don't share and give back the way our ancestors taught his loss is in vain and Chad's life is not in vain. It's just like, what the hell? That's so sad. Yeah, it's just horrible. but I mean, whoa. Yeah. I had to whip out the sensory toys for that one. Oh, yeah, that was a tough one.

I apologize. That was like a very, yeah, that was a very, yeah, very rough one. It is. And, um, yeah, there's, that's about it. Well, anything, uh, you're doing later today? Um, well, Leona has little gym. So, you know, I'm going to maybe take a quick nap before that little Hellbeast is released upon me, you know. The whole piece is good.

This is a good one. I'm going to go see The Odyssey. Oh, fun. I don't know how I'm only seeing it because of the hype. I don't think I would actually really. I can confidently say I'll never see it because I already know I'm missing my window to see it. I'll never watch it. But I love the memes.

So, yeah, keep me posted. Good. I read it in like seventh grade. Me too, I think. I think I had way too many nerds ropes to actually be paying attention when we read it. I can just sense that my high school teacher, my middle school teacher, like, signed off on getting everyone some sort of like field trip to go see a movie. Oh, you know, it's true. They're so excited. The Latin clubs. It's like, because I'm sure she else did that with like Beowulf and all that. Oh my God. Oh, yeah. Bayo Wolf. I forgot. Oh, God. Okay. You're true.

anyway um i must disembark you'll only get that if you listen to the yep yeah yes okay well i will i'll we'll see you next week with uh even more sadness i'm sure so and that's why we drink