And That's Why We Drink - E499 Symbiotic Snack Partners and Peppermint Pattie Problems (feat. Guest Host Bethany Watson)

Episode Date: September 20, 2026

Welcome to another rousing, titillating, & bone-chilling episode of And That’s Why We Drink! Christine couldn’t be here this week, so Em is joined by our very own Jerry O’Connell, the lovely Bethany Watson! Today, Em brings us the Staten Island urban legend of Cropsey, with a little side venture into the deeply upsetting true crime of the Willowbrook State School. Then, in a completely unplanned bit of synchronicity, Bethany covers a true crime case with a paranormal twist: the mysterious disappearance of Jacobo Grinberg. And if we ever vanish without a trace, we’ll find you in the lattice… and that’s why we drink!Links:Willowbrook: The Last Great Disgrace, Geraldo Rivera’s exposeWant to listen ad-free? Join our Certified Yapper tier for $10/month on Patreon! Ad-free episodes starting at E469 at: http://patreon.com/ATWWDPodcast !Catch our bonus Yappy Hour intermissions on Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3L28lDw or subscribe on Patreon!___________________https://quince.com/drinkGet 40% off your first Hungryroot order plus a free item in every box for life at https://hungryroot.com/DRINK with code DRINK.Explore coverage at https://www.aspcapetinsurance.com/DRINK The ASPCA® is not an insurer and is not engaged in the business of insuranceTry ZipRecruiter to post your job FOR FREE at http://ziprecruiter.com/DRINK . 4 out of 5 employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day.Head to https://dosedaily.co/DRINK or enter code DRINK to get 35% off your first subscription.Go to https://helixsleep.com/drink for 27% off sitewite Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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exclusive to our listeners of our show. Make sure you enter our show name after checkout so they know we sent you, helixleep.com slash drink. Welcome everybody to another rousing, titillating, bone-chilling episode of, and that's why we drink, where I am back with a lovely guest host, Bethany Watson. What's up?

Hello. Hello. How are you? I'm good. Thank you for just being like my superhero these days that I just call when a scheduling just doesn't work out. We need someone to record and you just pop on in and I appreciate you. I'm here.

Who was it? Do you remember when Jerry O'Connell was just the default guest for some late night host? You remember this? Like any time there was a problem, Jerry O'Connell would just show up. I think it's only episode two of you taking over and that's why I drink airwaves, but I do think you're the Jerry O'Connell at this point. That's right. I want to be your Jerry O'Connell. Let me be your Jerry O'Connell. Beautiful. Perfect. Welcome. Welcome, Jerry. I apologize to everybody if I sound a little frenetic. It has been like a weird little chaos storm over here today. And so I, everything's fine. It's just like everything's going wrong. Are you in sixes and sevens?

I don't know what that means. I mean, I'm like out of sorts. Yeah. It's like an old-timey way of saying, it's like a way more fun way of saying you're stressed. Or like. Then yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm eight and nines, babes. Yeah. I mean, unfortunately, the younger crowd has really ruined six, seven. I don't know if you're aware of this. Yes. Ah, yes. I know. I know. So unfortunately, when you said that, my brain went to the unfortunate six, seven. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, no, it's just been. wild over here we have new neighbors. I'm trying to get used to their gardener's schedule, which affects my audio. It's very annoying. How are you? How are you? Sweet Jerry O'Connell?

You know what? I'm doing great today, Conan O'Brien. I feel like it was Conan O'Brien, but I'm not sure. You know, at one point in my life, I was very lanky and gawky and tall. I was quite a scrawny kid until I hit, like, college. College is so weird. College is so weird the way that it does things to your body that no one because you're used to hearing about what's going to happen to your body in puberty right you're used to knowing that you're probably going to have some growth spurts maybe some leg pains and then you know that like at 25 you can rent a car but no one tells you in college random stuff is going to happen you're going to put on a ton of weight or you're going to grow really tall or you're going to a secret third thing or you'll get pregnant like any

one of those four things can happen in college, and it is always a surprise in a nightmare. And you know what? I would argue, you're 100% right, but I'm going to add on to that and say they say the same thing about your 30s. I'm assuming they say the same thing about your 40s. But I really thought, I mean, I guess people warn you about your 30s are like, oh, when your 20s, eat whatever you want. You know, they've all got the creepy left. And man, they were right. And one day my knees, I just woke up and just my knees just said, I'm done. It's crazy. Today's the day. I went to a Renaissance Fair recently. And Bethany, the best. Well, talk about the worst. It was like, as a fair lover, a Renaissance Fair lover, this was the worst Renaissance Fair I've ever been to in my entire life.

Oh no. They were not prepared for how packed it would be. And the parking, I'm not kidding. It's usually like a 45 minute drive there. We were in the car twice that. And that was before we've been looking for parking. And the parking, I mean, major streets were just gridlock traffic, people trying to find parking. So people were like the passengers were getting out to like make pit stops to grab snacks while everyone waited for parking. Wait, is this the first time this fair is doing this fair? Or have they done this fair before? What is going? Are they under new ownership?

Something's going on. But it was, oh, it drove me up a wall because I used to love this place. And it was so insane. So anyway, I get out to get a pit stop and which has never happened. I've never been like, let's take an intermission on me. looking for parking. Right. I go in there and I text Allison.

She's like, well, I already got up to this area. So come meet me. And by the time she had gotten through this little area, I was now an hour walk away from her. And she couldn't you turn and turn around or we'd be back in all of this. It was. So I ended up walking. And by the, it was the weirdest sight seeing just like 50 Renaissance elves and fairies leaving McDonald's all on their pilgrimage to the fair. And it felt literally like a.

Renaissance quest because we were like, where are they? Like, yeah. You're spending an entire movie walking through the forest trying to find. And you would find odd people at different, it felt like a video game where you hit different spots and like all of a sudden they give you new information. They're like, go there, quick, go there. Totally. And so anyway, all this to say, my knees don't work anymore.

And I ended up becoming some like someone's guide. There was a bunch of like Gen Z. It was clearly their first time ever at a Renaissance fair. They were so happy. Yeah. And they were like, where do we go? And I some, they just started following me without asking. And I was like, oh my God, I think I'm like their little guide now through the woods.

Yeah, you became their side quest. Yeah. Yes, 100%. But at some point, they asked me how old I was and I was scared to tell them. And when I told them I was born in 92, all of them very politely went, oh. Oh, wow. And I went, ooh. But that gave me permission to start telling them.

I sound like an old man. I was like, you better like this walk while you can because my legs are killing me and I haven't even gotten there yet. Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah. There was a moment in life where suddenly you can make fun of your age and the person you're making fun of it to stops laughing. And that's the moment where like, I used to say, oh, well, you know, I'm an old crone now. And they would go, oh, no, you're not. And now I say it.

And they're like, yeah. Like, they legitimately are like, yeah. But for your age, you look great. And I'm like, hmm? It hits you like a truck. And for some reason, a lot of people, it's very precious. A lot of people on the show, like listen with their kids or younger siblings or whatever. So heed our words.

Like, it hits you fast. Like, no one warns you the day that someone's going to actually mean it, that you're old. Yeah. But that day hurts a lot. Yeah. And young one, if you're listening, one day sooner than you think you're going to walk into an antique store and see something that you played with as a kid. I was 20 the first time it happened. So it's going to happen.

What was the item that you remembered? It was like my, like our generation's version of Candy Land. You know, because like they change Candy Land all the time. So it was the one that I grew up with. And it, and the brutal part of it too was that the box legitimately looked very old. Like it looked like it had been through something. And so it wasn't just like, oh, someone misidentified this as vintage. It was clearly vintage.

but it was also just like 20 years old and I was, it doesn't like hit you in the chest. That's when you realize your bones maybe look that way too. Totally. I was like, oh, no, SBF. It's nice. It happened to be, I went to a toy museum. I think it's in Houston. And they had, I think this is the same place.

There was a second floor and you could go, you went up and there were all these displays of toys by decade. And I saw the 90s one coming and I went, oof, the fact that there's even a case. Yeah, dude. And because you're 80, what year were you born? The internet says 84. I'm actually 81. Oh, okay. Yeah.

Well, then, so, okay, 90s for you is probably like extra sad to be in a display case. Devastating. Yeah. Oh, it's brutal. I, and I, every single thing in there, not only did I own, but I still have. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was like, should I save, is this a relic? Like, what's happening?

Is this now worth money? Or is it just sad? Just sad. All the plastics yellow now. Yeah. Yeah, brutal. Anyway, I didn't mean to take over there, but a lot of people on Instagram had followed the Renaissance story because I was really vlogging about that being like, this is horrible. It was 90 degrees.

It was awful. So I guess that's why I drink this week. And I drink a lovely little London fog that I had sent out, of course. And here she is on all her glory. Oh, she's beautiful. And that's why I drink. What do you drink and why? I am drinking Diet Coke.

I jumped into it early because I had to. But it is crispy and ice cold. And I am drinking because I, you know, when you have your heart set, like, someone's running out to grab something. And you're like, hey, can you pick me up whatever delicious treat that you want them to pick up? And you have your heart set on it. And then they don't get it. And then you're devastated. Of course.

Because you've been waiting for it. No, it's not even just like you were looking for it. Now you've been waiting for it. Yeah. And had you known something that would go, right, you would have just gotten it yourself. That's right. That's right. Or I would have lowered my...

Whatever. So Dennis went to run some grocery errands and I was like, I would like the following items, please. And also, can you get me a York peppermint patty? Because it's one of my favorite candies and I want to taste the sensation. today and I'm like looking forward to it and just before we started recording I got a text for him saying that that particular grocery store does not have any I don't believe him I I I I don't believe him nearly through my phone and I just wrote kill me and then I went on airplane

because you know what when everything in the world is so dark and brutal you just need a little bit of lightness and sugar and also you've been together long enough that he knows the secret answer is you go to another store and you just get it. And I think that he should have been home by now and I have a feeling that that is what he has done. Yeah. He's a good man. No, he, but also it's his fault. Totally.

That he needs to be your apartment buddies. Well, you know like the trope that like men cannot shop to save their lives. It's it is really there is something very interesting about like the act of searching that I have found. This is so weird because I am not a fan of that like binary. Men are like this and women are like this at all, obviously, because they're binary is bullshit. But like, I have found that many of the men in my life struggle to actually locate things when they look for them. Just can't see them. I mean, it's like, it's a whole thing on the internet, like that which like reverse misogyny or whatever.

But if you like get something on Instacart or DoorDash and you see that it's a man picking it up, people just cancel their orders. and try again. Are you serious? Yeah. Oh yeah. And it's got now a lot of men, they're, they'll switch their name on their account to a woman's name just so people will like pay them. But like every, I mean, you should, my sweet, 1988 one, you got to go on TikTok and you got to watch some of these videos because people will show like, this is what I ordered. This is what I got. Like some people are like, I wanted banana bread and they gave me a banana. Like, like they're just not even trying. You, um, Bless their hearts. I have never told you the debacle.

Our listeners know about this, but it was a real heavy beat in last year. For Halloween, I did an Instacart order, and I thought I was getting, was it Frankenstein? Yeah. I got a condom. It was a condom costume. And I was like, how did we get here? And then I ended up finding out that it actually was my fault because my finger slipped and I press something even worse than a condom, by the way, did you know they sell sperm costumes?

No! No! And so at first I was like, how did we get from Frankenstein to condom? But honestly, maybe they were sold out of the sperm costume and he thought he was doing me a favor. Totally. I'll tell you, when I didn't know that I'd clicked that, I was like, how the fuck did we get here from Frankenstein?

The first thought I had was the packaging of the condom and Frankenstein's head both have right angles on both sides. I wonder if he was looking at shapes. I mean, also he has the scar there. You could like rip his forehead off. Totally. Yeah. Totally.

Yeah. He was on to something. I just wasn't privy to that knowledge. But that's, I mean, you, I'm embarrassing myself with how little I am online. Like, that is one thing I need to do is get back online because like I don't see any of my friend's stories. And anytime I go on Instagram or TikTok, I just get husky content, like just howling like dramatic husky dogs, like not walking and screaming like dogs. Oh, like dogs. Not like husky men.

No, no, no. no, the actual dogs. It's just husky, all husky content all the time. So I don't even see my friends anymore. I just see the algorithms like, you like Husky, want more Husky? And I'm like, I do want more Husky. I guess that's better than, you know, the rest of what the Internet has to offer, which is all bad. I've heard it's bad. It's not really actually good. So the Huskies sound nice. Yeah, husky content is great. We are heading to Utah this weekend. And one of the things I've always wanted to do is go to the hotel in Utah that high school musical two filmed at. And Allison and I are actually making that happen. And for those who have watched that movie, you know that Charpe is

in the pool there and talks about her towels imported from Turkey. Oh my God. Quince literally gave us some Turkish towels. We have to bring them so you can get a picture of me in the pool at the same hotel resort. And thank you, Quince, for giving me that slam dunk of a memory. Wow. They didn't even know what they were pulling when they created these beautiful, these beautiful Turkish towels. They make elevated everyday essentials, not just towels, using premium materials like Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton, washable silk. So much more affordable than luxury brands. Like, for example, they're 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters, start at just $50. So you don't get that luxury price tag because they take that middleman out of it and work directly with ethical manufacturers.

Find the fall pieces you'll reach for most at quince, especially if you happen to be in Utah on the high school musical two-scent. the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com slash drink and get free shipping on your order at in 365 day returns now available in Canada and the UK too. That's QINC.com slash drink. Well, okay, I am glad that you're back because I felt bad that our first recording together, I implied that there was another story I was going to cover. And then I, and I felt bad. I was like, well, now I've already. set it and I would like a New Yorker here to talk about it with me. So I'm bringing you a story that

you probably know what I'm going to cover because I already said it to your ears. But this is Cropsey. Yes. M. I'm so excited. What do you know about Cropsey? Because I, okay, I was raised by New Yorkers, and this seems to also be like a strictly Staten Island thing for a while. And then it maybe became more New York. If you could enlighten me, if you can. So here's what I know about Cropsey. I know that it has to do, I know that it's the only urban legend that involves Geraldo Rivera. Yes, that's true. If you don't know who Geraldo Rivera is, he was like a journalist and then became like a tabloid sort of, you'll get into it.

But anyway, he, there was, here's what I know. There was a building. There was like a, like a hospital of some kind that treated people horribly. and something, something urban legend about a killer. Yeah. So you didn't grow up with this being like, well, Dennis is from Staten Island, right? Yeah. So Dennis grew up with the Cropsey idea.

Okay. And he- Can you take him off airplane mode and ask him? Yes, I'm going to text him right now. How are we doing on the Yorks and tell us everything about Cropsey right now? York update, question mark, question mark. I'm going to say, what do you know? about Cropsey.

I know that he's been to the actual abandoned hospital. He hated it. It made him feel very sad and awful. It looks horrible. He said just the energy too. Like, you could just tell, you know, if you believe in ghosts and you believe in energy lingering, he's like the energy there's bad.

I think he was raised with the like, don't go in the woods. There's a killer. Sure. Which is what Cropsey is pretty much. Cropsies, okay, yeah. And I'm so glad you're covering this because there is this, like, massive gap I have in knowledge. I know that Hospital, Hulroldo Rivera, something, something killer. Honestly, you know exactly what I would have known. Like, if I lived near Staten Island in the 70s or 80s, I would have only cared about the juicy bits and those are what you're saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's the juice. It's the good, scary stuff, but that's truly, that's truly all I know. Okay, perfect. Well, uh, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, it's.

This is a bit of a deep dive. I'm glad that you even mentioned Geraldo Rivera because I did not know that it was going to turn into this. I thought I was going to tell you a fun urban legend and we were going to move the fuck on. But apparently I have entered the true crime world and I didn't mean to, but we're switching it up. And it's so funny because my true crime today enters the paranormal and woo-woo world. So like, oh gosh, that's amazing.

So actually, between the two of us, everyone is getting their full dose of true crime and woo-goose ghosts. Great. Okay, perfect. Okay, that makes you feel a lot better. Yeah, of course. Well, here we go. Cropsey is, quote, Satin Islands personal boogeyman. Hell yeah.

And he is a legend passed down to local, usually boy and girl scouts and also just summer campers because that's, well, we'll get into it. But they're the main victim's. the tail, if you will. Okay. There are many takes on Cropsie's origin, but the main through line is that in the 1970s, a man in town, usually he's called a respectable man in town. Okay. Which we know means that he probably has a lot of secrets and like dark past.

Yeah. He was only like having one affair. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. A man in town was camping at the lake with his wife and kids when tragedy befalls his family. Oh, no. So no matter what version you hear, it always starts that way. Okay. Some say that he snapped and he killed his family with an axe and then ran off into the woods and is now bloodthirsty for more.

Oh. And since there's a summer camp right near these woods, you could be next. Yeah. Hear about round town these parts of the woods. We've been here and snapping an ax in all night. End quote. Thank you for saying that part for me. God, we rehearsed that for so long, man.

I'm glad we nailed it. I actually texted it to you exactly as is, and I thought you'd stumble, but you nailed it. Thank you. Others say that he actually died at the camp when he was a young man and now seeks vengeance on the new campers. Another story is that he lost his own son and is now looking to steal children for a second chance at fatherhood. Which, like, would be the craziest start to your fatherhood. It's like, Daddy, how did we meet? Well, well.

I hate to tell you. There are people out there. I've heard, like, I have never met one of these people, but there are. stories that they're really people just realized one day they were kidnapped what i i just did a story um on the little girl named ricky jean bryant um who was there was a house fire it's a little bit like the solder children there was a house fire um everyone survived except she just disappeared and some of the theories are that she was sold um or taken just so horrifying to be someone's child There was a

I hate that this is my frame of reference But there's a Law & Order SVU episode That's very fascinating about all that It's nuts people just be growing up Realizing that the aunt is mom Or you know Stranger is mom But mom is back in Washington State

I do know people with There's someone in my life Who was kidnapped by both of their parents At different times which is crazy Oh my gosh Everyone's fine fine now, but like it was just a really interesting era. Everything's fine.

Timultuous marriage, I'd probably say, right? It's a multisuous divorce. Ah, yeah, last. Yeah. Oh, yeah. But it's fine now. Everyone's fine. Everyone has a relationship with everyone.

It just was like everyone was kind of crashing out. Okay. Moving on. So the most popular version of this story is that a man lived or worked for a summer camp. Okay. And when I say most popular, I mean, this is at least. to my knowledge, this is the post-80s most popular story. There might have been a more popular story in the 70s that Dennis knows.

But essentially, movies ended up coming out about this, and that's how Cropsey became super-deeper well-known. Okay. And so the stories and the movies ended up kind of becoming the default storyline. This has, it has remnants of, like, Freddie, you know? You mean Jason? Like, Jason, sorry. Freddy and Jason. in my head are the same and I have to see one before I can know what the other one is.

I know what you're saying. And then when I saw the movie, Freddie versus Jason, my brain exploded. I don't even, who's who? You can't be in the same spot. But I agree with you. And a lot of people also agree with you. That's why I knew you were. That's where I knew we were going this way. Basically, a man lived or worked for a summer camp. Campers played a prank on him that got out of hand. Yeah. Usually involves a, uh, the camp. campers starting a fire, which goes out of control and severely burns the person and or kills his family.

Oof. And now he is seeking revenge on new campers who had nothing to do with this. Yeah. I mean, well, it's a circle of life. So you got to. I guess generational trauma. Yeah. Anything with therapy.

Exactly right. So because there are so many versions that mention his burns from this prank from a fire, Cropsey is now often described as having some sort of. different appearance. Okay. So it's either burns on his face or he has scars, a lot of the versions of crops here that he has a hook for hand. Oh, wow. They're like getting all the classics. I know. I was like, you don't see a lot of hook hand anymore. In real life, you mean? Actually, both. This and in the story. I feel like you never hear about urban legends. Like, it's this man. And then that story we're like, oh, you're on a date and then you hear something on the

door handle. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's like a whole. A hook is so specific. It's super. I think it's like one and done. It's that urban legend and then Candyman, obviously. And that's, that's it. I had a teacher in college who had a hook for a hand and he played the piano beautifully. And I still don't know how he did it.

I do want video footage of that. Me too, man. It sounds like we're jumping an additional hurdle. I would like to know how that's possible. Totally. Piano's hard anyway. And then when you are working. with a hook.

I mean, like, you're like four fingers fewer at least than you would need. I think it was his right hand, too. It was the one that does more. It was the tinkly one, not the cords one. I like to think at least in 2026, I do follow TikTokers who have, like, prosthetics. But they also 3D prints. So they just 3D print whatever type of prosthetic they want for themselves. That is so cool.

And I feel like there's got to be, I don't know what your teacher was doing. but these days there's got to be like a one that helps with piano or something. I'm sure you can get it. It sounds like that guy handled it. I don't know. You figured it out. He totally figured it out. So this guy maybe has a hook for a hand.

And he uses it, of course, not to play piano, but to drag the children into the woods. Of course. And inversions with the hook hand, sorry, where he does not have a hook hand, he has some other, quote, weapon on him, which is often like a trusty axe to just kill the children on sight. Okay. When the story is told from like a counselor's perspective, I don't know if this is a universal. It happens every year situation or this like happened once and it was so monumental we had to write about it.

But it sounds like the campsite and the counselors really went like crazy about trying to convince people that Crops You is real. And like the counselors were in on it where they were like one of them would all of a sudden have a broken hatchet where they're like, oh, I was trying to defend everyone. And I got in a fight with him and now it's all twist. And then we had to call the cops and they told this whole dramatic story that everyone agreed upon. Amazing. And it ended with like a shootout, but then Cropsey got away and he's still in the woods and they never found a body. And I was like, well, this is so, like they're eight. They're eight-year-olds.

Yeah, no, let's let this is, this is, this is everyone going full in on just like not understanding how terrified children can get. You know what? We'll appreciate the theater of it all. Yeah, totally. The counselors are having the best time they've built lore. But the kids are just horrified. I mean, if you're, I would imagine if you're like a 16 year old counselor or 18 year old counselor or something, like this, it's your dream to finally have something interesting to like brag about when you're in the woods. I feel like I'd get so bored if I were summer a counselor. So yeah, I feel like this is exactly what I would do. Fully, I would yes and so hard to make this story just absolutely insane and ridiculous. I would probably be the one who is like buying fake blood. I would go a little bit too far. I would go too far. I'd be the one who ruined it. I think you'd, like, leave a letter, like, with crops you written in blood or something.

Oh, yeah. Well, since Dennis knows about it, you should just leave a little note from him in fake blood. I'm sure you have fake blood in your house. I have in every room. There was one time that I found fake blood. He was out on his morning walk, and I wrote something like, I see you in fake blood on his mirror. And he came in, and he was like, Bethany, because that's, you know, it's not friends. writing anymore.

That's just how you are. Yeah. No, one of my, during COVID, I think you were writing him a lot of menacing notes. I remember one where you, he was like looking through a shoebox. Like, how would you know he'd ever look in there? You must have thrown it in thinking in eight years, this will be hysterical. Uh-huh. Yep.

And he unraveled this like dirty letter or something and it just said seven days. Yeah. Gentle listener, if you have, if you live with someone and you are not. doing long cons like that, you're cheating yourself out of a really fun time because also every day leading up to the moment they finally find that thing that you're so invigorating. Oh, it's the best. Tuck it in their, they're like high school yearbook that's down in the basement that they haven't opened in years. Like dig into the bottom of a box and just tuck something in there. Just go absolutely feral and it will be very fun for everybody, I promise. Did you do some bit where like you had a hundred of

something and they just kept showing up. Yes, I think so. I think I did and I think I left one number out on purpose. Like I think I just, it was, it was so mean. And I have one that he hasn't found that I did, I think five years ago and we've been together for seven. And it's something that he sees every single day and doesn't realize that there's a secret on it. Is he going to listen? to this? Can you tell us? I don't want to ruin the surprise. Actually, I don't, I don't even want to, you tell us the day it happens. I'll give you, I'll give you a, I'll give you a hint. It is something, it is something that I've done on the back of something that he, he never looks

at the back of. I see. So like, that'll be a long one. Yeah, it's a long one. Wow. Can anybody see yet why we're friends? I like, every, every time I get an update on like how you're torturing, Dennis. It's just, I get so giddy. So, thank you. Oh, it's the best. It's the best time. Well, so this, uh, this Cropsy guy, he always escapes no matter what the storyline is. He's always still out there. And therefore, he has become this cautionary tale of don't go wandering off in the woods because he'll, he'll get you and he'll drag you through the woods with his big hook hand. Um, and when he would successfully take the kids, according to all these legends, um, it was his calling card to leave behind a small fire as an homage to like when he was attacked with fire.

Oh, oh gosh. So if ever there was a little fire in the woods, they'd go, oh, there he is, there he is. And you know it was some counselor out there, like burning leaves just to freak the kids out. There is something very frightening about a fire by itself. I will, like a contained fire by itself. That's so scary. And it's one of those things where, like, Christine and I are often saying, if you heard a noise in the middle of the night, do you hope it's a ghost or a robber? Like, it could either brings bad, bad energy.

And if you see a contained fire by itself, it's. It's like, I kind of hope that Mother Nature is just setting this ablaze because otherwise there's someone very close to me and I don't see them. Yeah, yeah. Hopefully there was a lightning strike perfectly in the center of this circle of rocks that like just lit on fire. And it's not just like somebody out hunting for people. 100%. Yeah. So he'll leave little small fires.

He's also apparently, and when I say apparently as if this has really happened, these are just all things. Camp Couts are some said. Sure. another calling card is he would burn his name into something, including these imaginary children who have gone missing when they, if one was ever found, the name Cropsy was burnt onto their body.

Like, just really, oh, dark. So, when he's dragging these children to the woods, because obviously this is super duper for sure happening. Yeah, for sure. Where is he dragging them?

Where is he taking them? Well, into the many abandoned ruins nearby, as you've mentioned already. This area, these woods were near a campground or are near a campground, so it wouldn't make sense why that would be the end of the story. It's like, oh, well, there's those abandoned ruins out there. Don't go out there. Don't go exploring because that's where Cropsey lives and that's where the kids die.

And so basically there's a few options we have here because these ruins were actually multiple properties. So one was an abandoned tuberculosis ward, horrible on its own. Yeah. A lot of people think that's where Cropsey lived. another one it's called the New York Farm Colony but it was also once known as a quote Poor Farm Yeah so that's also super creepy

Especially since it's abandoned Yeah and the most important one which you have mentioned Is the mental institution That as it was called something much worse than Called the Willowbrook State School Okay God they used to give such pretty names to such awful things You are so on the ball

literally so many people said we had no idea what was going on over there because it sounded like a country club so we just never thought about it totally oh absolutely yeah it's just like the the happiest place on earth and they're just not feeding children yeah basically so um and i'll say before i jump into the billowbrook stuff so the whole story of like well crops he's this guy and he it the whole camp camper story where he is now a victim of a prank and now he's attacking children the other different version of the story is that nothing ever happened at a campground. He was actually an escaped patient from this hospital and now lives in the woods. And one of the ways to, I guess, survive is by catching children that are at the nearby camp. Oh. There's so many versions of this. So many versions. Every person's like, he has a hook for hand. He has an axe. He has a big fat knife. He uses his bare hands. He uses his teeth. Like, it's every story is totally different. So I would be curious what Dennis heard. He's, and he texted me back. He said that he's heard many things.

Some things. He said, I've been to that hospital, though, at night when I was a kid, is what he said. But the thing about it being an escaped patient, oddly, is more frightening, I think, to me, because it sounds like it could actually happen. It feels, well, so my hometown urban legend was also of an escaped person, an escaped patient from a mental hospital. and he ends up living in the woods and surviving off of bunnies and they call him the bunny man. Oh, God.

Yeah, because like when they shut down places like this, they didn't actually. They didn't care where they went. Right. They didn't do a great job of caring for the people who were in there. And so what do you do if you don't have anywhere to go? You go back to the place that you know, even if it's abandoned. Exactly. And then you make it work.

And like- You're hitting all the right notes. That's exactly right. That's frightening. So, again, I thought I was just going to be covering. an urban legend. And honestly, we could end there if you'd like, but I did do a bit of a deep dive here on Willowbrook, which feels important to cover. Yeah, dude, and I want Geraldo. Yeah, big G's in here for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Big mustache. And a delicious mustache, like, well, well groomed. Yeah, it's thick. Speaking of thick knives, you've got a thick

knife across his front lip, top lip, his front lip. Sometimes people have a mustache and I go, let's do away with that. This man deserves one. Yeah, he was boring. with that mustache. He was. So Willowbrook opened in the 40s. It was supposed to be a mental hospital and ended up for a moment being a just a hospital, an army hospital for World War II because they just needed it. Yeah. And then they ended up switching it back to the school that they originally attended. It was the only home in the area for people with intellectual or developmental delays. And at one point, it truly was, I did not know this. At the time that it was built, it was the biggest and best facility in the world for you to send your loved ones that had delays.

Oh, gosh. Or differences. But after enough budget cuts, which happened very quickly, it worsened steadily until the place and its conditions were unrecognizable, which is an understatement, especially when you think that it was supposed to be the world's leading facility and taking care of people. And I'm sure they needed the money. And so they're not going to communicate that, hey, don't. don't send anyone else here because it's not actually as good as the reputation. And so people were like, no, God, that's awful. You think you're sending a family member to a really good place.

Yeah. And in hindsight, so a documentary came out about Cropsey and a lot of locals who remember the history of Willowbrook were saying, well, Staten Island for a long time was a literal dumping ground for a lot of things. So I guess a lot of people also thought they could just dump their kids here, which was like such a sad way to look at it. Yeah. But I mean, also it's confirmed because their kids are true like garbage. Yeah, good point. Few knew what was actually happening. The first time we ever got a glimpse into it was in 1965 when Senator RFK, not current fuckass RFK Jr.

But his father who gave a shit more so than this guy. Yeah. RFK, he did a surprise visit at the hospital. Like, you-hoo. Let's see what's going on here. And he went, oh my God, what the fuck is happening? Oh, my gosh. He ended up doing a press conference.

He called it a snake pit. And he promised to improve its conditions, but of course, that didn't really go anywhere. Why didn't he improve the conditions? What was he doing? What was he doing? Honestly, don't know. Don't know. But I don't like it.

I think the conditions improved a little bit, but at this point, my understanding, because I watched three documentaries on this, by the way. Damn. It was a long night. Because I thought, oh, I'll just watch this quick 15 minute one. And then it just devolved. Yeah. And I was up all night.

So the, what my understanding is, is that they did put more money into it, but they didn't need money as much as they needed like some actual fucking reform. Gotcha. And so they could keep things clean. Like they basically also gave them enough money to like maybe hire a couple more people. but they needed like hundreds more people. They needed a massive overhaul, not. Yeah. Like they, I guess, helped, but it really, at what cost, truly.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Like, I saw there was one source I looked at that said at one point they fired so many employees that they needed like a thousand more employees for it to actually have been a functioning building. Oh, my God. At one point there was, at one point there was 6,000 patients here. and they had like 30 people.

Like it was banana grams. It was fucking bad. So after RFK came here, saw this, tried to help, but nothing really happened. Another, a reporter came out. Her name was Jane Curtin. Oh my God, Jane Kurt. Wait, not the actress. There was an actress.

Jane? I don't know, Jane personally. I know that she wrote this article. I don't know. Not Jane Curtin. There was a comedic actress named Jane Curtin. No, no, with the C. I got so excited.

I'm really sorry I mean to derail it. No, I was like, oh my God, is there? I love a fun fact. And if I missed one, please tell me. So, no, Jane Curtin with a K. Okay. She was given a tip by two of the staff members to come in and do a piece on how bad it was. And this was like after RFK had came, it had been a few years.

And I mean, the people who did work there, the documentary stated this. The 50th anniversary of this place just had a whole bunch of press come out. And those people were also saying this. Like, it was not the employee's fault. Like, they were, maybe some of them were not meant to be there. But there were employees who were really trying to help. They just, there was just no way you could watch that many people. They were just so in over their heads. That's awful. And so these two staff members were like, Jane Curtin get in here right now and write an article, please help us. And so she came in. When the article came in, when the article came out, a bunch of pictures were in the article. So parents saw pictures of what was going on here. And that

was the first time they actually saw anything. It started a bunch of like parent protests and like people trying to figure what was going on. Some people I think were taking their kids out. But I think at this point, they still didn't really know what was going on. It sounded like a lot of parents actually gave pushback because they, they thought that Jane Curtin went in there and was like, ragging on a facility that's like the world's best. And like, I think they weren't denials. because it's like what else were they to do with their kids if they couldn't have them at the at home yeah totally so it there seems to be a half and half of people really giving a shit or a bunch of people like doubling down okay so um when this all happened though it caused enough of a curfuffle that the higher-ups who don't give a shit at all they were the ones that were constantly doing budget cuts they ended up firing the two guys who told jane curtain to come in no that's like uh to silence that I hate this. I hate those two people, whoever those, I hate them. Well, so then these two people who were like, I guess, the tip-offs, the tips, I don't know what they're called, the people who told.

The whistleblowers? Whistleblowers, yeah. So then they got fired. One of them, when he got fired, he, this is like such like a fun twist of fate. He got fired and he went home and he put his hand in his pocket and realized he still had the key. And he was like, somebody needs to know more than what Jane Curtin told them. like that should be the beginning of this, but someone needs to end this. Yeah. And then he called his friend, Geraldo Rivera. Oh my God.

Haraldi! Okay, so Mr. Mustache himself, future famous journalist, Geraldo Rivera, he was not very famous yet. But he snuck a camera in. He borrowed the key. He snuck a camera in and he caught some of the horrors of this facility. Oh, my God. Wait, did he just let himself in? he had um i don't know about the first time around he i think he just let himself in or he had like

someone another whistleblower who like kind of helps him out yeah i'm not totally sure but he does come back a second time later and has an escort that's the great thing about a facility that is understaffed is if you show up at night no one knows no one's there it's a huge facility and there's like one guy and he's asleep at the front desk you just let yourself in the back door maybe It's like an ocean's 11 situation, but it's like, let's save everybody, please. Yeah. So he shows up and to this day, he has done very few interviews about it, but when he has, he just breaks down crying to this day. He's just, yeah.

And especially because he's actually stayed friends with a lot of people that he met that were unfortunately victims in this hospital. So in the last interview I watched, it was him and one of the guys that he actually interviewed back in the 70s. Oh, wow. And they're like still buddies. It's like very, it's very sweet that he kept in touch. Oh, that's nice. I like that. So what he saw, this is a combination of what he saw that day and what some of the stats are in general of this place.

But the population at its worst was triple the max capacity. It was understaffed with like so few people. And not only that, but a lot of those people weren't even qualified. They weren't doing background checks. There was one guy who was like straight up a criminal and just lied about who he was and was able to get in there and work there. Oh, my God. And also even worse than that, instead of hiring additional help that was needed, they thought, well, if we just give like this one more able-bodied patient $2 to watch the rest of the room. So then they had just patients watching patients.

Which is like, first of all, not, I mean, just not safe, but also not, I mean, like, not safe for the patient who's been put in charge. At all. And also you're saying like, oh, we'll pay $2 an hour. $2 to do what? he'll never be able to spend the two dollars he's he's here he's stuck here yeah yeah is there a commissary is some sort of delightful store no probably not there's probably not magazines and gum that they can buy they're probably just like trapped and now someone one of your fellow roommates gets mad at you because you're the charge and now you're absolutely not safe like that's or i mean like it was like

i think some of the patients they were saying more um i don't know what the right phrasing is but they had less less delays than other people. If I'm saying that wrong, please, in the comments, I am open to criticism. I just want to make sure that I'm being sensitive here. Yeah, of course. So it sounded like they were,

quote, more capable to watch a room, but also, like, they're also a patient here. Like, they don't even know what they're supposed to, maybe they don't know what they're supposed to be doing. Maybe they're, it's not their fucking job. No, it's not their job. It's literally like they should be, someone should be watching me, motherfucker.

Why am I watching them? Hang on. Like, yeah, if you're, If you're in awful conditions and like you're, you're in this scenario where everything sucks, at least you don't have to be in charge. That's the one thing you don't have to do is go to work because you're basically a prisoner. And now they're actually making, that's awful. That's awful.

And they were truly prisoners. I mean, the rooms were completely, it was just a big open room. There was no privacy. There was no doors. There was no doors on the bathroom stalls. There was no beds. People were just sitting in chairs or on the floor naked because they didn't. with the budgets, they didn't have enough money for clothes, for clean clothes. So if you had clothes,

they weren't clean. Everyone was just covered in like feces and urine. They were just, like, you could hear just screaming and wailing and nobody's watching anybody. And the population at, at the time when it was the world's leading, it was supposed to be one staff member for every four patients. And it got to a point at its worst where it was upwards of one staff member for 60 patients. That's 15 times the amount. And because of that, even the hardest working employees, they just couldn't take care of everybody. So even the people who were trying their best at this place, they were expected to feed every single patient within three minutes, which I'm at, I don't eat in three minutes. And like, and people who might need extra time would take longer than me.

Like three minutes is not enough. And they were like, well, we don't even have time to think about anyone's diet. So they just basically had this mush that they would just go around in a bowl and they would just put a spoon in this guy's mouth, a spoon. this guy's mouth, a spoon in this guy's mouth. No clean clothes, no privacy, no activities, no lights sometimes. Like when this guy, when her all those snuck in, the lights were off. It was just they were all sitting in the pitch black. There's no simulation.

There's, I mean, it was solitary confinement, but without the solitary. It was just you're sitting there. There's nothing to look at. You wake up. You sit in the chair and then you eventually fall asleep and do it all over again tomorrow. There was nothing going on. And imagine like if somebody is, somebody is violent. Like just like not because not just because they are a person who is violent.

It is dark and you are not protected and no one cares if you get attacked. No one care. Like there's. Yeah. Or even if they do, they're all the way over there watching 60 other patients. Yeah. Yeah. Totally.

Yep. Yep. Yep. And Geraldo himself, he was quoted in the, in his own special, his expose saying there's no rehabilitation, no training, nothing. There was, I mean, there was, it was completely unsupervised just because there weren't enough eyes. people would be locked away behind multiple steel doors. Former staff would say like when I first started working either, they gave me this like heavy steel key and it was to open one door.

Then I had to do that, walk down a hall, go to another door, walk down that to go to another door just to open it up. And it was a room full of toddlers by themselves. Like it was just locking them so far away that nobody knew, including like parents. Like people didn't know what was going on at all. They just thought, I'm dropping my kid off. And at the time it was advised, yikes.

that like, it's, you can drop your kid off here and then, quote, move on with your life and just know that they're taking care of and don't think about it and don't come visit. Like it was so nobody knew that, and they thought they were giving their kid the best life possible at the time. Yeah. Yeah. But another former employee actually called the buildings living coffins because nobody who could have helped even knew to go check on them. Maybe higher ups knew about the buildings, but they weren't going to go look in there and waste their time. No, they don't care. No, and I'm sure that on a certain level, they had like distanced themselves from any sort of humanity that these inmates at this point had.

You know, I think it's a little bit like, oh, well, they don't know what's going on. They don't understand what's going on. And it's like, no, they absolutely do. They're screaming for a reason. They're literally, like, I mean, they want help at the very least. They want at least to be nourished and loved. Of course. It's not that hard.

Yeah. Yeah. Heraldos said that it smelled like death in there. There were reports of rats, bugs, like so many, like the kids, anyone. There was also like adult wards and people just had parasites in their stomachs. There was like it was shocking if someone didn't have a parasite eventually when they stayed there. Sure. There was disease.

If there was illness at all, it was getting spread to everybody else in the room. The worst part, if there is a worst part, is that patients were purposely for vaccine research being infected. with hepatitis. No! Wait, I didn't know this. I never heard this. What the fuck, dude? They said every, every patient by six months, if you stayed there for six months,

you had hepatitis just because of the way it would spread. And one patient, one patient, I mean, Harold de Rivera is interviewing the patients and being like, what do you think about this place? And all of them are like bad. It's very bad. Help us. And one guy who ended up being his friend later, he was seen interviewed 50 years. later. That guy, he was like, it's a disgrace to be here. It's just like so sad. And he was like,

all I want to do is go to school and learn how to read. That's all I want to do. Oh, my God. That's. And you can only imagine, like, I haven't even touched because there's no information about it. The physical or sexual abuse that might have been going on with these patients, too. And the parents are never coming to pick them up. They're just locked away. No one's ever going to know. The level of despondency that that these people must have felt just awful. And yeah, I mean, that's what I mean, that's what I was thinking too, especially with the pitch darkness and just everyone being in a room, I'm sure that there was just rampant sexual assault going on all over the place. Haraldi even said that while he was there, he just saw like several, several men just

masturbating. I mean, what else are you going to do? Like, I mean, they're just like, but it's just an open room and it's like, doesn't matter if there's kids there. Doesn't matter like if women are there that might be uncomfortable. Doesn't matter if like just a random man's there that's uncomfortable. It's just, nobody's being tended to. There's no privacy. But it's just, it's people are just left to their own devices and with no help. That's unbelievable. And like I said, none of the families knew about this. They actually found out when Geraldo's expose aired.

So they were watching TV and just saw. There was one woman who was like, my brother was a little kid. And when we sent him there and he died four years ago. And four years after his death, we saw the expose. and now we have to wonder like how did he actually die. Jesus Christ. Because he said something like he had like an illness, but it could have just been like two kids got in a fight and nobody helped him.

Yeah. And now. So anyway, I said he came back for a second time. He filmed stuff secretly, I think, the first time around because I don't think he was supposed to be there. They certainly didn't want that out. No, I'm sure not. They didn't have time to mop the floors before he came the first time.

Funny you mentioned that because. the second time around, he actually, this, he has not put out the expose at this point yet. He just filmed a little bit. And then he called and was like, let's see if they'll give me a real tour of this place. And they said, yeah, come on down. And they, he happened to be brought over to one building where every child was very clean and intended to. And he was like, oh, I think I've seen enough. And he left. And then he literally jumped the fence and went back without an escort and went into the other buildings. And everything was as he saw the first time. Dude. So they were absolutely trying to cover it up.

I can see, I know, like, I knew that this was the making of him, but I didn't realize how skillfully he played that, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's literally footage of him jumping the fence and just like really quickly running into another building. Like, he's. And like young Geraldo Rivera was a snack too. He was not a-up in a fence, like that's action. By the way, in today's world either as like a 60 or 70, he's also still very yummy looking. He's looking good. Yeah. He's got a full head of hair on his head and his face. I am very jealous of the dog sitters that are coming over while Allison and I are gone this weekend because I have a whole box of hungry root that I'm not going to be able to eat in time. So nice of you. So I said, how about I pay you and also feed you? Damn, that's a good deal. They, it was the middle of the night and they said, we'll be there.

Yeah. Yeah, hungry root is awesome because every month it like gets more, every time they send a box, it's more customized to you and what you like and what you need and what your feelings. and what your family members like, which is awesome. Every time they send something, I discover like a new product or a new item that I love. And they've got awesome brands. And yeah, I guess I should start house sitting because it sounds like a good cake. No, it's customizable all the way down to either what you like to eat, what your partner likes to eat, what your kids like to eat. And then how often you want to be cooking in the kitchen, how little time you want to be in the kitchen, you know, how dedicated you are to cooking.

I mean, there's just so many options on their menu. every single meal looks delicious. It's really saved my butt quite a few times when I'm really craving dinner immediately. So you're going to love HungryRood as much as we do for a limited time. Get 40% off your first order plus get a free item in every box for life. Go to HungryRoot.com slash drink and use code drink. That's hungarroot.com slash drink code drink to get 40% off your first box and a free item of your choice for life. So he ended the piece by saying pretty much kind of what I just said a couple minutes ago. they're like, it's not necessarily about money.

Like, we need reform. We need change. He ends the whole thing by just saying, we demand change. Like, this is so fucked up. You cannot possibly, nobody knows what's going on. And, like, there's a whole community of people who, like, just fucking need help. He also ended up in other parts of his documentary. He went to other facilities around the country that were actually taking care of their patients.

Oh, damn, that were actually better than the best facility in the country? Yes. And cheaper. he was like this place is $14 a day for your kid. And meanwhile, Willowbrook is $21. So you're paying more for like them to be abused and tortured. Yeah. So anyway, he did a good job of making sure people are like, it is possible.

Like you just have to fucking care. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, that's a good point. It's easy to become despondent. I would imagine and just be like, well, what are we supposed to do? Yeah. I mean, like in the other facilities, everything was clean.

And they were like, of course we clean our bathrooms. What are you fucking talking about? And every kid, like, had a labeled cup and, like, the doctors were, like, this, I know, I promise I'm not, this was not like a revelation to me. But keep in mind, this was the 70s. It was probably a revelation of somebody. Yeah. That the doctors that he was interviewing at the better facilities, they were like, they're just people. I'm like, yeah.

Like, it's shocking that someone needed to fucking hear that. Yeah. But anyway, so basically this ex was a blew the fuck up. He ended up winning a Peabody Award for this. Amazing. And it, quote, sparked, I don't know if you knew this. I did not know this when I heard, oh, some old creepy old school in the woods. That exposé that he did is a quote, sparked the beginning of the disability rights movement.

I didn't know that at all. I did not either. But that was the beginning, like, after that came out, they started passing all these laws to make sure that people in the disability community or people with developmental and intellectual delays were all taken care of and that there were, like, rights to, like, how they should be treated in facilities if they were. there. Because the Americans with Disabilities Act was passed in the early 80s, right? I think I think so. Yeah. Early 80s. So that makes sense timeline-wise, for sure. And I mean, just now, I was going to do this at the end, but I'll give them a shout out now that 50 years since the Expoise happened only a couple years ago. And the New York Council of Developmental Disabilities ended up putting out a new documentary to honor to the 50th anniversary called

The Path Forward Remembering Willowbrook, in case you'd like to watch that. And in case you'd like to watch the original documentary by Geraldo Rivera, it's literally on Heraldo Rivera's YouTube channel called Geraldo Rivera. Good friend. And it is called Willowbrook the Last Disgrace. Damn. That's a good title.

So, especially because the one person he ended up, I think, keeping in touch with was the one who said this place is a disgrace. So I think it was like a nod. But anyway, so I'm sorry that we derailed there, but it felt important to mention that we have come very far, thank God, but who knows how much longer it would have taken

to even get to this place if it weren't for that expose. I don't know if it ever would have gotten there. I feel like it would have been something else. It would have been like, you know, we need the building for a different purpose and so we're going to close the hospital or close the school and no one ever would have known. And I feel like, oh, I have a feeling

that it just wouldn't have been discovered. Well, also like it feels very, very on the nose. I don't know exactly how to articulate what I'm thinking, but hopefully you catch on to what I'm saying here. It's very interesting that

you know, these, the people in this community are already so silenced and need so much help. And now the history of this monumental school that was horrible

and ended up causing all of these like civil rights for people with like extra needs. It's shocking that now that building is just known as like where Cropsey lives. Isn't it crazy? Like they,

just can't win. Like, you just can't. You just can't. Not that anybody wants to remember the stain that is Willowbrook, but at the same time, like, so it's such a historical thing. And like, it's just like, oh, it's in the woods and that's where like teens think that like cults go. Yeah, it's not remembered as like, it's not like, you know, Stonewall, where you go to Stonewall in the West Village in New York and you know that this was like the birth of, you know, the LGBTQ rights movement. Right. Right. You know that that's what. it's for it's not like urban legend started here i feel like it should be the same thing for that hospital it should be like this was the birthplace of our country actually recognizing that everybody

is a person and everyone should be made sure that they can actually survive and move through the world uh-huh you're right you're right it's like no scary guy with a hook i'm just like man and the so anyway it felt necessary to bring that up before i just said oh in some old abandoned school and by the way it's called the willerbrook state school because they funded just enough they had just enough funds to be deemed to school, but not, but like so much more should have, because they were, their kids there. They were also supposed to be like in school while they're there. No. And so they got, so they got like school funding technically and called it a school so that way people thought the kids were going to school. But it was just a, it was just a loophole, basically. They were just putting them

in a cage essentially. Yeah. And calling that cage of school. Oh my gosh. That's wild. For obvious reasons, the hospital shut down, although it took 15 more years. years. Fuck, man. Crazy. And I heard that it was because they really did try to, like, make it better and, like, try to improve it. But so many people were, like, just fucking shut this thing down.

Yeah, too late. If we've learned one thing from this documentary, it's that, like, money is not going to help this unless you're willing to spend, like, a billion dollars. Because the amount of cuts that you've made that would need to be put back in place, there's no way you'll ever agree to that. And, like, it's just never going to be good enough. so just shut to shit down. It's like by a really old home where it's like rotting from the inside,

you're like, we're going to paint it. Yeah, exactly. You need to rip the house down. There's, there's mold. It's like, it's a really, like, I guess honorable gesture for you to give us five more dollars. Thanks. But, yeah. So basically, when it did close, uh, some people, as you have already, um, suspected, did not have

anywhere to go. So they ended up still living on the property, along with other, in general, unhoused people. And I will say on top of that, a lot of people who were able to go back home, it sounds like they were either confused or didn't understand. And so a lot of people would end of just wandering back there because they thought that's where they were supposed to be. Oh, God. So there was just a lot of afterlife. Yeah. Not in the ghost way. A lot of people just still in the woods in general. And my understanding is that the Willowbrook School and the tuberculosis ward and the, what's it called the poor farm?

I feel like, I don't know if that's like the right way to put it these days. Probably not, but I feel like that's what they called him. And I don't think you probably have one of even those anymore so we don't have a better name for it. Right, right. Because we don't farm our poor people out to like be held, which is what I'm guessing that is. I, you know, I feel like, well, my understanding of those three locations is that there were tunnels that connected each of them or maybe it was just tunnels that just connected the the hospital with the school and the farm is its own thing. But so then not only were people moving into the woods,

they were now camping out in the tunnels. Tunnel? Just the word tunnels. I know. Makes every, I just want to die, but I also love it because it's so scary. I used to explore a lot of abandoned landmarks in my hometown growing up and I would go through many a wood. But the second there was an enclosed space where there's only one way out. I wouldn't do it. There's just no way. It's so scary. And I'd be able to scatter.

No. Yeah. Yo, you're either running towards the danger or away from the danger and the danger can still see you because it's a straight shot. Yes, exactly. Tuttles are the worst thing ever. And also, I mean, the classic, you just never know what's around the corner if you have to like peek.

I don't know how good your sense of direction is. You strike me as someone who is a good one. I feel like. You are, you deceive yourself. Okay, if you've had sense of direction, aren't tunnels horrifying because you don't have any landmarks? Yes. Getting lost is my nightmare. And that's just a labyrinth.

Now you're just in a labyrinth. I've been in a bunker tunnel before and that was crazy too because it's just like out of a movie long, long, long, long, long, long, long. It just doesn't end. Why were you in a bunker tunnel, M? Well, I've been in a few. But one of them was the most recent one was Alzin had a family reunion. and she ended up finding this like Airbnb that was like a mansion. And this guy clearly thinks the end of the world's going to happen because he had,

he built a whole underground full system with like a like a nerve center with security cameras everywhere. And like it was very weird, but it was also just like wildly easily accessible. Like you just open a door that you thought was a closet. And then it's just like, and you didn't lock that off? No. I think because it was cold.

And he was like, he left it open for us, though we could walk from that place to the other part of the estate. Like, it was like a, I've never been in a fancier location ever. He had his own entire, like when I say gym, I don't mean like a gym room. Like he had a whole like three story building that was as big as the mansion with like its own basketball court, tennis court, pickleball court, pool table area, billiards, a whole gym, the size of a real gym. I was like, Alison, how much did we pay for this? But so he also had a whole bunker set up and there was like halfway through was a bedroom, which was so weird because on either end it was just long tunnels. So you could rest halfway through because it's such a long tunnel. You need to take a nap?

You need napis? Basically, I was like, or maybe it's like super duper like that's the last place a bomb could get you. I have no idea. Ooh, yeah, good point. That's like the safest, most underground part of it. Dude, bunkers are so scary. If there's a nuclear bomb, I don't want to be in a bunker because I don't want to be in a bunker. because I don't want to be in a bunker for the rest of my life.

Now you're in a bunker. The day that the apocalypse happens, three, two, one. Yeah, I'm out. Bring it. That's it. I'm going to stand. I'm going to be, I'm going to just stand and welcome it with open arms like a, me too.

Like a dumb hippie because I do not want to. I see what they were doing in the Walking Dead. I see how unhappy they look in The Last of Us. They don't look happy at all. I'm like to survive what? And like the only people who are going to survive, like I'm sure there'll be a few handfuls of people like me where I'm like, how did I end up here? But most of them are going to be a bunch of those like gun totin government preppers. And I'm like, so now I get to spend the rest of my

life with them. Yeah. No. That's not no. I will. I'm good. I'm going to take the L for this one and I will see ya in the next. Whatever's next has to be better than this. Boom. I mean, I often say that the reason I don't drink is so that way when Doomsday comes, I can get blasted as fast as possible. You're going to be drunk so fast. I won't even feel it. I'll just feel like, whatever. I took a and now I'm going to be fine. Fully comatose. Okay, so back to Cropsey, because that was actually the topic of the story, if you recall, after that long window deep dive.

So I'm glad you did it. I'm glad you did it. It's important, I think, but I did not expect to do all that. So one person who ended up living in these woods amongst all the other people who are now, you know, unhoused in some way or maybe just like it didn't even have to do with previous patients, just people now see open buildings to live in, and squatters are now in there. But one of the people who lived in these woods, who was also connected to Willowbrook, was this man named Andre Rand.

I'm going to call him Rand. Okay. For the rest of this. Okay. So he was, yeah, so he actually once worked at Willowbrook as a janitor. It's unknown if he contributed to any of the abuse there, but we do know that he was not a great guy to children. Oh. in his separate life.

So, like, you can kind of guess that maybe he was up to no good here as well. Yeah, that doesn't seem like the kind of thing that you would leave behind at home if you found unsupervised children at your workplace as well. 100%. Okay. He, for example, like, he was not a good guy at all. He was once arrested for the attempted essay of a nine-year-old. Awesome.

And he... What a nightmare. Also, once kidnapped 11 children from a YMCA and drove them to the airport. And we don't know why. That was just... It sounded... He just said, you want to go for a ride? Woo-hoo.

Let's get in the bus. And then he took them all to the airport. And one of the kids who's now an adult and was being interviewed was like, I think there was something much more nefarious that he was going to do and then realized he was in over his head because there were 11 of us. Jesus. Kids are getting arrested for that and went to jail for 10 months. 10 months. Good.

That's it. And that's for kidnapping 11 kids, not for trying to rape a child. Jesus. And also in general, in the town, parents knew that he lingered around kids a lot, like, outside of his own crimes against children. So we can't confirm her to deny that he was doing anything when he worked at Willowbrook, but it was a place known for crimes against children and he also committed crimes against children. So I can't imagine he was pure of heart. No, and there was, what, one staff member for every 60 people, is that what it was?

So, yeah, he had some probably unsupervised children running around. For sure. And at this point in the story, Willowbrook is post-scandal. People now know what's going on, but it's still open. It's on its way to being shut down. Okay. And Rand, he is no longer working there, but he has begun living in the woods and his when it officially shuts down he'll be living on the site permanently.

So let's remember he... That's so scary. He worked in the woods, or no, he worked at this mental hospital where he was committing crimes against children next to a summer camp. So we're starting to see maybe the inner workings of an origin story here for crap. Totally. So what made things a lot worse, because a lot of kids at this point when they would go to the summer camp, they'd be like, oh, yeah, we all hear about Cropsey. There's this guy who takes kids into the woods.

That could have easily been just inspired by the fact that there were kids out in the woods living at this facility. Sure. And that's why sometimes you would like hear screaming and stuff like that. It was actually because of an equally bad thing of, you know, kids are being harmed. Yeah. But they probably thought it's some spooky little story, but they were actually hearing a bad interpretation of a real horror. That's, oh, Jesus. So what really freaked them out, because at the time they were like, oh, it's just the story.

And like, it probably isn't true. And everyone's just trying to keep us from going out and exploring in the woods. Around the same time, Staten Island, separately, starts having an odd string of children going missing. Oh, my God. like has nothing to do with the scandal of the children at the hospital but at the same time there's a whole other big situation going on with the kids of satin island so in 1972 keep in mind that's right when the cropsy stories start picking up yeah right in the 70s the first kid that goes missing is a five-year-old named alice and then in the 80s there's a seven-year-old named holly ann

an 11-year-old named tahease a 22-year-old named hank and a 12-year-old named jennifer a lot of them had intellectual delays and I don't know or developmental delays as well I don't know if they're if that has to do with like them they weren't like patients at the hospital so it's just very odd that two separate things are going on side and island both of them have to do with kids with disabilities yeah it's very weird it is weird and it seems like yeah it seems like those children were being chosen because and the one and the adult i guess the toy year old, maybe because they may have been easier to manipulate. But it is very strange that that's just a recurring theme.

Yeah. And so one of the theories, though, is that, well, this Rand guy who worked there as a janitor at one point maybe was hurting people in this hospital, had previously hurt children. Yeah. Now all of a sudden, these children with disabilities are going missing. Maybe they somehow reminded him of the hospital or... Sure. I mean, it's total speculation, but it's like the only kind of...

common ground is that this guy is always around kids with disabilities. Yeah. Yeah. Even more interesting is that before all of these children went missing, Rand was the last person to be seen with a lot of them. So we don't know if he did it, but he has a lot of things going against him right now. Yeah, he doesn't seem like the greatest guy. He doesn't have a good track record and it would be stupid to not draw some conclusions

based on pretty obvious information. It's two layered. It's two layered here. So he was a painter and Alice has a part. complex. He was talking with with Holly Ann at a corner store and near his car. He was released from prison the night before Tahis was

disappeared. And then he was seen at a diner with Hank. And so he was near all of them. Then they go missing. And he was not actually a suspect for any of those missing persons' cases until the last one in 1987, which happened to be

the year that the school closed. Fun fact. Oh. But Jennifer who had Down syndrome, she goes missing after taking a walk. One of the last time she was seen was with a man with a green bike similar to the one that Rand was seen a week later with. Missing for 35 days, this Jennifer girl, none of the others, by the way, their bodies were ever found.

Oh, my God. Oh, my God. And nobody was ever brought in for, as a prime suspect for them. But this one Jennifer girl, she was missing for 35 days. the entire community did this huge search party and it did lead to her body being found in the woods near Willowbrick, less than 500 feet from Rann's campsite

that he was living on. Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and say he did it. Is that gonna get us in trouble? I think he did. I think he did. There are a lot of people who think he didn't do it. Really? But the fact that he had just been seen with her. First of all, he'd been seen with the other kids as well

right before they went missing. He was seen with her right before he went missing. right before she went missing. Her body was found 500 feet away. He has previous crimes against kids. The parents knew he was fucking creepy. Yeah. Like, he already worked with kids with disabilities.

And it's just, it's not looking good for him. No. So basically he was taken into custody quickly. Yeah, good. Finally. It only took you, what, 10 years? And five kids. Five kids.

And there was little evidence that he actually did anything. It was just eyewitness testimony where it was like, oh, I saw a guy with a bike like his. So that really, I wish there was more evidence than that. But he did get first degree kidnapping of Jennifer, which was 25 to life. And then four years before he was up for parole, he did like 21 years. And then he got tried again for one of the other kids that went missing. And he got another 25 to life. Good.

Good. Finally. Because of this, though, he did retroactively become the prime suspect for all the other missing kids because they're like, well, what are the odds? But, you know. So some think that he just kidnapped them. Other people think that he kidnapped them and killed them. Some people think he was actually like kind of trafficking them for satanic cults in the woods because this is also during satanic panic, of course.

I forgot. Yeah, of course, of course. It's just the perfect storm because it's also Stranger Danger era. Yes. Yes. So between Stranger Danger, Satanic panic, fucking Cropsy and all the scandals going on in the woods with this school. It's just like not the place for kids to be. No wonder everyone was saying don't go in those fucking woods.

Totally. Well, and also, if you think about, like, we look back now with the satanic panic and sort of laugh and roll our eyes. Some of us do. Some are back in it. But like, imagine all of this other horrible stuff in your community is actually happening and is actually true. Like these horrible abuse allegations at the school turned out to be very true. These children are actually going missing and getting killed. So I would probably also be like, yeah, the satanic stuff is probably also real at this point. I mean, it's like a weird confirmation bias, especially because the, um, in the tunnels and in all of these, you know, abandoned buildings now, there are signs of people going out there and doing nefarious things. And there's people who are maybe jokingly, maybe not putting like pentagrams on the floor and like graffiti on the walls. And,

you know, leave it up to any paranoid mom. All the kids are going missing. You're going to just start blaming whoever you can. Totally. Yeah. So some say that he actually, like he was only like the guy who would collect.

the children and then bring them out to the woods for cults and covens to use them in human sacrifice. Like crazy stuff. The more people you ask, the more versions you get of this. Okay. Also, I just want to say, like, no one's talking about it, and maybe I'm fucked up for saying it. But, like, he also clearly had some mental stuff going on.

That does not, like, excuse anything he did. But nobody's talking about how, like, his mom also had some delays and was institutionalized one point. Um, you can just see in like footage of him that like something's a little off like he's, his eyes are bugged out. He's acting really like odd. He's drooling.

He's like, I mean, he's just like he's, something's going on there and like, he also can be a very dangerous man. Two things can be true at the same time. Totally. But no one's mentioning it and I don't know if that's maybe I'm,

maybe something's wrong with me for mentioning it because maybe it's like, that shouldn't matter. But I feel like it's like no one's thinking maybe he was just, not a, you know, a good thinker and he just was hurting people or he thought he was friends with them. I don't know, but he's also like a sexually assaulting man. Maybe he knew exactly what he was doing. I don't know. I mean, I think also we have a tendency to want to make the bad guy fully bad. And I think that it's harder if you understand that he was failed on a systemic level from the very beginning too. Sure. Because it makes him a little bit more human and it makes him a victim.

even though he also was then a perpetrator and should have been held accountable. But it's harder to be like that man, bad boogeyman, bad guy if we know that he has a humanity to him and he was also failed, you know? He was failed. I think he was failed. And also, I'm totally, I feel like I'm kind of guessing here that something's going on with him. But I was watching the footage and I was like, something is up and no one's talking about it. And everyone was like, oh, he's drooling something. He's crazy.

And I'm like, whoa. Like he's. No, probably. I mean, no. He could just like be have a thing. He could have a thing going on. I don't know. I don't know why I'm defending a fucking horrible man.

But I think that you are right to bring it up. I think that it is worth bringing up because everybody, it is harder to not just have black and white, bad good. But like, what have we learned from the story is we need to support people who need help from a very young age? Because otherwise he was probably without the. support that he needed and wasn't able to be pushed onto a good a better path. Yeah. And I do wonder, like, was he working, because he was working at the institution, but it's

like, was he working there because he was one of those people who got paid like two bucks to watch the others? Or like, was he trying to hang out with people that were similar to him? And that's why he kept, or maybe he was trying to be near kids, maybe one, because maybe he just fucking liked kids and that's off. Yeah. Or maybe he was like, they understand me at a different level. I don't fucking know.

It was like the only job, you know, he may have just been trying to get a job and that was like the one job he could get. It doesn't seem like they were. Sure. Or his mom was also. And it was there. So maybe he was like, oh, mom wasn't there. But he was like, oh, my mom was at one of these.

Maybe I won't take care of my mom. I don't fucking know. But I just, no one's saying it. So I just thought I would say it. And if I'm wrong, please correct me. But I just, I felt like it should be mentioned. Sure. Yeah, totally.

Something was certainly off about him. Yeah. Anyway. And I mean off like as in like he gave the creeps, but I don't know. I'm trying that. I don't mean to be offensive. No, you're, I don't know. He gave the, he gave the creeps because he was legitimately doing really bad things and was a legitimately creepy guy.

But also there was probably some deeper issues going on that could have been helped and were not. Thank you. Yes. Thank you for getting what I'm trying to say. Totally. Totally. Totally. I'm like sweating.

I like don't want to think anybody. Okay, so the last thing I'm going to really talk about here is just like a quick moment for getting back to Cropsy is that the three-wave and diagram that all of this kind of creates for us is that we're near a summer camp. Yeah. Like that is true. This facility is near a summer camp. The facility is in the woods where kids are and were getting hurt. Then the second part of this van diagram is that there was a guy, Rand, who lived in those same woods who worked at that facility that has been arrested for hurting kids. the third part is that a string of children in town have literally gone missing one was found dead in the woods next to this guy's campsite and he went to jail for it so all at the same time this is happening by campsites full of children and counselors are coming up with stories to scare their campers so it would make sense that through the small town gossip people have heard about this and now it's just perfect fodder for something to scare kids with and there's no way to know for sure if willow brook's history and

Rand's background were, in fact, the combined inspiration for Cropsey, but he already earned a reputation for, like, being the Staten Island monster. And now we're trying to tell people about a monster in Staten Island. So it just, it just adds up. That's, that's wild. And it has to, it has to be part of it. And this is also, like, the most truth-based urban legend I think I've ever heard in my life. Right. Yeah. That's what I thought, too. I was like, I've, I really thought I was going to be talking for 10 minutes. And then all of a sudden, I'd be like, well, I've got nothing else. And then all of a sudden to turn into like this whole fucking true crime. And a lot of kids, like I told you before, they really thought that this was just like a silly story.

But when kids actually started going missing, they were like, oh, fuck, I think Cropsey's real. Nightmare. Nightmare. A lot of people really started treating Cropsey like a real person because they were like, there is someone out there. And I actually, in one of the documentaries, someone said that Cropsey became like local slang for a maniac in the woods. Of course. And so even if Rand wasn't the Cropsey and the stories, he was, in fact, a Cropsey. Yes.

Oh, my gosh. Yeah, totally. Yeah. So in that way, maybe that's how the two of them ended up associated with each other. It's just like the names kept getting mixed up. Yeah. Anyway, so it has now become a common campfire story for locals. It has many projects have been done inspired by Cropsey.

The main one is that in 1981, the movie Burning Man. which I told you I watched in preparation for this. It was not good. No. And arguably even worse was the movie that came the year after called Madman, which I'm pretty sure they were the exact same movie written by two different people at the exact same time. And there must be some beef between them. I'm sure.

I feel like I've actually heard about this that there like actually was. Well, Burning Man, first of all, there was a lot of unnecessary naked. women in sex scenes and I was like what the fuck is going on and then guess who fucking produced it statin islander harvey weinstein no oh so just another crime on top of another crime on top but I was like why the fuck does every girl have to be topless for no fucking reason yeah it's 70s and 80s horror films are like yeah they're just boobs on boobs on boobs gross well so I will say a less horrible fun fact about Burning Man is that it was miramax's first movie oh congratulations congrats and it was the movie debut for fisher

Stevens, who I did not know this, in real life, his name is Stephen Fisher. His stage name is Fisher Stevens. Wait, the man, the man with the perfectly round head and the thin neck. Yes. Yes. That guy. Really? Yeah. His name is actually Stephen Fisher, but his stage name is Fisher Stevens. Also, this was the movie debut for Holly Hunter and Jason Alexander of Seinfeld. Wait, no, shut up. Wait. What does he play? Does he please tell me he plays a sexual god? No. No. No. He he he plays like the guy who thinks he's cool but he's not I swear to God I think I've seen this movie in a previous life because this is pinging

something but I have the memory of a goldfish well now you have a date night with um Dennis as long as he got you your yorks so yeah it's a real will they won't they because I still don't know well the movie um is what I said this earlier but this is what got the story out beyond Staten Island. So now this, the story that happens in Burning Man is the main story of what happened to Cropsey, even though it might not have been the original default story of Cropsey. Gotcha. But it's basically a burn victim, which let's talk about people with disabilities and exploiting them. Why are we, this whole thing is like they played a prank. They should have gone to fucking jail for like attempted murder. And then he's just a burn victim who is like grieving.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Sue me he wants to kill some kids. Yeah. No, I, yes. If they, yes, I've side with him. I mean, not real life, but like... Not in real life. But in the movie, I'm like, there's certainly things, there's onions to peel here. That's a good way to put it. There are onions to peel. And then the last thing I'll say is there was a documentary that came out in 2009

called Cropsey. Fun fact, it has 91% on Rotten Tomatoes and was play at the Tribeca Film Festival. But it was made by two Staten Islanders who wanted to like discover who the fuck Cropsey was. They tried reaching out to rant to do an interview. He ended up declining. but basically is there anything else for me to say oh just a fun fact that today

Willowbrook buildings the buildings there are still abandoned in some areas but other parts have become the campus for College of Staten Island whoa what yeah and the ruins part is said to be very haunted people see a man in the woods of course they hear footsteps voices laughter and a hook scraping the tunnel walls jeez fun fact it's a real man and you should be actually running because it seems like most of the stuff was real. Yo, that is so, that is so scary. And then it's very scary. And then it's very scary. I know. And it's also just crime after crime for crime. And somehow Harvey Weinstein got involved in my fucking notes. I don't even like that at all. Talking about dangerous, awful men who needed to be in prison a

long time before they were. Like that, that's absolutely crazy. And I don't think I fully understood how true so much of it was. I also think I think that the filmmakers who made Cropsey went on to make another documentary about urban legends. I think they have another one that they came out like a few years later. Because, yeah, because I know they covered the hook hand car thing in that one. A classic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Am, that was fantastic.

I'm so sorry, I talked for a full fucking hour. It was so unnecessary. This is great. This was really, really, really informative and awesome. Now you can go tell Dennis all about his own. I love when we can mansplain to mend their own childhood. It's like, actually, this is what happened. You know what?

I know so much about Staten Island. If you've ever found yourself awake at 2 a.m. Googling, like, what to do when dog gets skunk? And then like spiraling, you know, you've probably been where I've been. And there's always something with these lovely animals of ours. And luckily today's episode is sponsored by the ASPCA pet. health insurance program. When you enroll in an ASPCA pet health insurance plan, you get a $25 Amazon gift card. It's a little treat for you while you're doing something great for your pet.

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Try for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash drink. That's ZipRecruiter.com slash drink. drink, meet your match on ZipRecruiter. Okay. All right. Bethany, I cannot be more excited. I, you nailed it last time. You're going to nail it this time, I'm sure.

Well, thank you. I'm so nervous to do this for a couple of reasons. First of all, I don't know, this wasn't on purpose, but this is the second story in a row that is Spanish language-based. Okay. So, so like me with my like high school level command of Spanish, I, I am going to be absolutely doing my best. I'm going to give it my like absolute college try on pronouncing words and like I'm going to do my best. But I set myself up for failure and I, and I am, I'm just super nervous about it.

I understand there have been a few stories I want to cover in in Japan soon. like there's a few ghosts I wanted to cover and the so many things so many articles I'm like I have to find a translator or like I have to because I don't want to just rely on like Google translate for all of my sources like that I can't be so I have avoided that because I'm I don't know people also please in the comments if you have a suggestion on how how to handle that because I'd like to cover more like international stories but just don't know the means. please let me know and maybe also Bethany just because how did you do that? Did you go through a translator? What did? So I did, I used like the website translator to get a baseline,

but I also skimmed it in Spanish to make sure that like the cognates matched at least because I could be I could tell if like essentially this is what it was saying. But then I also watched YouTube videos. that had subtitles. So at least I knew that the person talking was saying it correctly and then like the subtitles probably, hopefully were correct. But but also this involves a lot of science. And I love science and I am pro science, but I am also not a science expert. And so this, this,

I get it. I would, I'd be scared to. You're like, hmm, how could I really tack on an easy project for myself. Science in Spanish. And then I'll just tell that whole story. Okay. You know when you're too far in to turn back now? Yes. That was me like halfway through this. I was like, I don't have, I can't do a different topic. Like, we're in this now. So we're just the only way out is down and through. I'm proud of you. There was one episode. I must have told you this before. Or maybe you listened to it. There, I was, I thought I was covering the back rooms. Yeah. Yeah. And then I, or I think, I think this is right. I thought I was covering the back rooms,

but I ended up covering like black holes. And I ended up, it was really hard. And I was like, and I've gone too far. And then halfway through it was like, I don't, I don't understand why everyone wants me to cover this.

This isn't at all what I would usually cover. And I, but I was like, okay, it's what the people want. And then I realized at some point, I was like, oh,

this actually is a totally different topic. And now I've just, and I spent the whole week trying to figure out how to break down quantum physics and black holes. to best explain to people. So I've been there and I have faith in you. Thank you. Sometimes you just have to do it. I'm going to get into it. But but so I watch a lot of makeup YouTube and one of my favorite things is the Jacqueline Hill Lipsstick Gate debacle. Do you know about this?

I know nothing. Long story short, makeup and YouTube influencer Jacqueline Hill years ago put out her own line of makeup and the lipstick that came out, all of them, not all of them, a lot of them had hair on them. What? Like hair, like not like just coating, but within the lipstick itself, people were pulling out hairs. And like it became this whole massive thing. And it was so funny because you saw all of these YouTube creators who suddenly just had microscopes and suddenly knew science and all of these people just were like we learn science now and they started breaking down and like cutting up and they had like they had um scalples cutting into the lipstick and it's like they all became chemists overnight that's what i'm doing now women in stem oh my god it's very much like i i feel like if that

is how science was presented to us it's like okay now we're going to dissect a lipstick to find hair we would have done that like that i would be like shut up i'm in like i will learn i'm will learn one woman was wearing a half full hazmat suit it was great it was great did we find out why there was hair i feel like that's a mystery of its own so okay thanks for asking so here's what we think happened according to jacclin they were not hairs they were fuzzies left over from the white cotton gloves they were using for quality control not so much of quality control the gloves if they're that loosey-goosey okay that's right but based on um some reverse image searching and enhancing quadrant four and some deep diving that a TikToker did.

She discovered that the lab that she believed that Jacqueline used, which was based in Florida, and she did this by comparing pictures that employees from the lab had posted on their LinkedIn to images that Jacqueline had posted of her at the lab doing quality control. They noticed that there was a day that the cat had gotten loose and someone had brought in their dog. multiple times in this like sanitary chemistry station building allegedly animals had been out and about and like like ones that shed this isn't like even a golden doodle right no no no these are like shedding so so they think that the hairs were from that and then they think that some of like there were metal shavings in some of them and some of them had like grease bubbles and so they think that it was like a

combination of them trying to push this line out too fast and not doing a great job at heating and cooling the actual liquid in the right way that made it like cohesive and together. But we, and we still don't know for sure because Jacqueline's just not telling us. Well, I mean, it sounds she would, I would be tight-lipped too. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's infuriating. But boy, we're going to get to the bottom of it one of these days. I'm going to crack the case wide open.

That's right. Well, in the meantime, while we work on Lipstick Gate, I'm going to tell you the story of Hakobo Grinberg. Some people say Jacobo. Some people say Hakabo. I'm going to say Hakobo, because that feels like it sounds like the most best and the most best. It sounds like the most best. I'm so nervous. She's... Maybe just the last name. We're going to call him Grinberg.

You know what? Calling him Grinberg. Okay. Oh, my God. I'm sweating. Okay, so if the name sounds familiar to you, it might be because a documentary about him came out in 2020 called The Secret of Dr. Grinberg. Okay. It was on Netflix.

My Netflix told me I can't watch it. I don't know if it's not available just like the cheapest level of Netflix. Maybe you have to. don't know. Maybe it's not in America. I don't have a VPN anymore. I apparently stopped paying for it. I don't know where it went and everything's falling apart on everything. So, but there is a Netflix documentary out there and it looks really good. Sick. Okay, great. So, all right, so in December of 1994, one of Mexico's most brilliant and controversial scientists, a man named Dr. Grinberg, vanished without a trace

just as he was preparing to perform a groundbreaking experiment that he believed would have proven that telepathy is real. But then he disappeared. He thought too hard. He thought too hard. He thought too hard.

My first thought was like, this has to be like he has the cure for cancer or something. So maybe that, that, okay, good to know. Well, it's, oh, it's, it's, It's fascinating. So a newspaper called him the Einstein of Human Consciousness, and that's kind of what he's been called ever since. That's crazy. It's wild.

They should call him Mindstein. Oh! I mean, I have one skill. Let me use it. But it's a good one. So he spent his life essentially attempting to bridge the chasm between, like, rigorous. rigorous scientific-based neurophysiology, understanding the effect that the brain has on the body, and also connecting that to the miraculous world of Mexican shamanism and the spiritual practices that were a huge part of Mexico in, you know, generations and cultures going back.

He was trying to like bring these two things together. Sure. So he was born on December 12th, three days before my birthday, but different year, 1946. Okay. Born in Mexico City. And his family members were from Poland. They were Jewish. They spoke Yiddish.

And they had come to Mexico in the early 1900. So he was also incredibly connected to that side of his heritage as well. Like he had these deep roots going back to the Jewish culture and his family back in Poland. he had these deep roots that he felt very connected to in Mexico. I don't think I've ever met a, like a Jewish Mexican person. I had no idea that. I didn't know that could be a combo. But of course, you know, like, but yeah, of course, it makes sense.

Yeah. I mean, anything's possible, but it's like, it's just like, that's a rare, that's a rare duo. You don't see that one a lot. You don't, and you don't hear about it for sure. No. So it's not super clear what kind of relationship he had with his dad, but we know that he was really, really close with his mom. And when he was 10, his mom was diagnosed with a brain tumor.

And then she passed away after just two years when he was 12. Yeah. Oof. So this obviously just devastated him. And so there was a woman in his family named Hilda Alterman, who was his cousin. And she was super close to him. These two cousins were like tight. And she said that after Grinberg's mom passed away, he became, quote, obsessed with otherworldly events.

She said that, like, a lot of times after his mom passed away, when they took pictures, you would always see him looking up in the photos. Like, he always seemed to be sort of... Not with us. Yeah. And just searching, like trying to find something. I know it's so, it's just kind of breaks your heart. Like, 12 is so young. Yeah.

And especially to be so close to your mom. Yeah. Yeah. Oof. So when he was 19, he had moved to Israel. He lived there for a year. And that's when three important things to him happened. So he was only 19.

The first was that he met a woman named Lizette Arditi, who would become his first wife. Ooh, okay. The second is that he met a British medium. And this was the first time that he had learned about seances. and he was in. That's a monumental moment for all of us. Totally. Absolutely.

The first, oh, yeah, the first time someone, you know, puts you in a circle, you hold hands and the table starts. You start chanting. Oh, that's awesome. I haven't felt anything like it. It's so long. Not since drinking my crystal light. Have I had such a rush?

So this medium used a Ouija board. And, like, Grinberg didn't take this. as, oh, this is really fun or it's a game or, you know, like, what a lark. He was like, this is a tool. And it opened his brain to the idea that people who are dead might not be completely gone. Maybe they're in a limbo state. Maybe we can talk to them. You know, and of course, the fact that his mother had passed, like, there's a reason

why spiritualism became so huge after World War I and like the Spanish flu. Like people had lost so many loved ones and we wanted to connect to them. So this is, you know, it makes total sense. Totally. It's not abnormal. So his first wife, Lizette, which is one of my favorite names, remembered a time when he told her that a spirit had told him that his watch would stop at a specific hour of the day.

So like, let's say it was 6 p.m. And then his watch did stop at 6 p.m. And she said that was the moment that he was hooked. He was like, this is a thing. Yeah. So then he started studying Kabbalah and he studied it in the city that has a super long history of mysticism and meditative practices and just earnest study. And for the rest of his life, he would look for ways to integrate all of these different spiritual and mystical concepts into his academic work. Because he was also super smart. He was brilliant.

Cool. Okay. Yeah. So he left Israel, came back to Mexico City. He earned his degree in psychology at the National Autonomous University of Mexico. Cool. And then the 60s happen, baby. Psychedelics. Oh, counterculture. He was into it. He left his wife. He moved to New York City. And he became even more radical with his views on like otherworldly phenomena. Like he was he was into this. now. He was probably wearing little circular sunglasses and like not going to work and just having sex with everyone. I don't know if that's true. You can only dream. You can only dream. Right. Exactly. Okay. So he got his degree in psychology and then he went into the doctoral program at NYU's medical school in the brain research lab. So this dude is legit. This is legit. He's science, you know. So when he was there, he focused on the brain's reaction to things like geometric shapes and colors.

Like he wanted to see, he wanted to watch people's brains and see what they did when they looked at certain things. Like how does the world around us affect how our brain fires? Which I do in general think that's such an interesting topic, but it feels like something that would come straight out of the 60s. It's like, completely. I was just on acid. does my brain also look like it was just on acid? Yeah, yeah, completely. Yeah, can I hear colors the way that I can when I'm absolutely high?

Yeah. The problem that he had, though, is that he struggled with how the word that this article used was square. He struggled with how square scientific research was. Like, it was too strict and by the book. Yeah. And so he ended up going back to Mexico in 1977. He started teaching at UNAM, which is where he got his undergrad. And then he started doing experiments.

And this is my favorite part of the story because he got in trouble. So he believed that he could make children read words on a sheet of paper even though they weren't using their eyes. That's amazing. Did he do it? No. Well, he got in trouble because they did see things, but it wasn't words. Oh, okay. Unfortunately, so these were kids that were perceived to potentially have some psychic abilities.

And so, you know, he was like, cover your eyes or blindfold and then like read what's on this paper, but don't use your eyes. So the children, the unintended effect was that they started to see kosas, faeus, or ugly things like dead people. Yo, what now? Like collectively they all said this. Yeah, dude. And their parents were so mad. I'd be like, what the fuck did I sign my kid up for? Their parents were pissed and like pulled their kids out of this experiment.

And obviously, Grinberg's very upset, but for a very different reason. And then like his colleagues are starting to question if he actually knows what he's doing. Yeah. Well, what was what was his like methodology here? Like, what was he, was he priming them to think about? scary stuff like what no what was he showing them that could even possibly be linked to this I'm not sure exactly how he was doing this my only guess is that in the absence of any stimuli your brain starts to create stimuli sure okay that makes so like if there's that thing

where if you stare at your own reflection for a really long time it starts to look warped and terrifying yeah yeah so I my my guess is that it was something like like that, but it's entirely possible that he had like made them look at faces and then put a blindfold on and all of a sudden, you know. Right. Who knows? Okay. Okay. Horrifying. All right. So he, uh, he got, he got upset. So he didn't really know what to do because he was super drawn to the rational thinking aspects of science and academia. But at the same time, he felt like those same things that he loved about it and rationality worked against trying to learn more about how human consciousness worked. They were too strict to do the kind of research he wanted to do,

but he did enjoy that research because it's strenuous and rigorous and it's, you know, by the I feel. I feel like if you want to have, if you want to study something like that, you have to have to have imagination. Like you have to be, be creative. And a lot of times science, some would argue is not, you don't get to be creative. You've got to have to follow the rules. Exactly. And I think that that is, I think that's something that he ran up against because There were people who were definitely on his side and he had some like high powered allies. And he was really good at bringing money into the school. He was good at getting grants and that sort of thing.

But when he started doing these experiments that either kind of went off the rails or couldn't or he wouldn't let them be replicated by other scientists, people started kind of raising an eyebrow. Like he was super popular with his students, obviously. and some of those students worked with him in his lab, but he wouldn't let the students who worked with him talk to anyone about what they were actually working on. Interesting. And like, yeah, he wouldn't let other scholars

try to corroborate the results that they were coming up with. So then people were like, well, we don't know if it's legit if you won't let us try to get the same results. It's a little too secretive. Like, I could understand, like, not wanting to, like, sway anybody or, like, create bias. if everyone's talking to each other, but someone's got to know what you're doing for us to believe how this works. Yeah.

Totally. Yeah. And at some point, like, it's one thing to want to keep your secret secrets until you're ready. But at some point, like, you do have to release what you're doing. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So during this point, Grinberg had also become really interested in shamanism.

That had started since, like, his first trip to Israel. He got really interested in this. And he started taking part in practices like meditation. hypnosis and hallucination. He was taking hallucinogens. He would take sessions from other people, but he would also lead his own practices. And then all of a sudden, super randomly, in 1975, he was suddenly invited to Los Pinos, which is where the Mexican president and his administration operates. Oh, hmm. Okay, I'd start getting nervous. I know. I'd be like, I'm talking. I'm sick. I can't.

Uh-oh. Oh, no. I'm too good, I think. Oh, dear. Oh, dear. So it turns out that the president's sister, Margarita Lopez Portillo, was a fan and wanted to meet him. Okay.

And she also wanted Grinberg to meet a woman known as Donia Pacita. Okay. Now, Donia Piccita. was a lottery ticket seller and a cabaret singer. But like all of us, she diversified and she was best known as being a healer who could do spiritual surgery using just a rusty hunting knife. Hmm. I don't believe that.

Maybe she's right, but I would have to see that in person to, I'd like to see the results of somebody. Also, spiritual surgery, but needing a physical tool, seems backwards to me. It sounds like she used it as like an... Is it athame? Is that how you pronounce the word? I've only ever seen it. Athame? You know, it's like a, it's like a place to focus the energy into.

And then it... Like a wand. Like a wand. You know, but not as whimsical. I thought you meant she was like channeling the world to tell her. how she should perform a surgery with the hunting knife. Yeah, no, no, I think she was like, no, you're right. No, I said that.

I said that in an unclear way. No, the possibilities are endless. I think it was like a lightning rod for energy. Okay, that makes a lot more sense where she's not just stabbing people with a rusty hunting knife. Not that I know. I healed you. Yeah. So she, so like spiritual surgery is still a thing that people claim to be able to do.

It is not viewed well. It usually, I would say, is done in theory, allegedly, by grifters who are trying to take your money and prey upon people who are in positions where they are looking for hope. I know somebody who does spiritual surgery. Oh. and I to their face call bullshit often okay but I think they at least the person I know they really think it works I don't think they think they're a grifter at all and I'm like that's insane to me I mean I don't know maybe maybe I'm wrong but I have yet to see good results I'm not an expert on this I think that there is a pretty big intersection between things like healing, touch, and Reiki and spiritual surgery.

But I think that healing touch and Reiki works. And I think that from what I understand, and I'm sure if you are listening and you know more, and I'm sure there is someone who knows way more than I do, please set us and me straight. but it sounds like the claims at least made in from donio pachita were like i am replacing your liver with a different liver that's what i'm talking about that kind of thing that's that's that's that's what i yeah because i um in case anyone here needs a clarification on my thoughts i'm a big believer in the power of the mind and a big believer in meditating and a big believer in like manifesting. So like, I'm not saying that can't be true. Yeah. But exactly what you're saying of like,

I can I can reverse your organ failure. And I'm like, hmm, that I don't know. I don't know. I mean, look, if this is all you can do, like if, you know, our healthcare system broken, if you cannot afford anything and like have at as long as you are not going to do. No judgment. Yeah. I just am hesitant to believe. That's all. So. So. But, look, like, thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of people went to visit her and vouched for her and said, like, she... She must be doing something right. She fixed me. She, you know, I wasn't able to have children.

I got pregnant. I wasn't able to walk. I can walk now. She cured my cancer. Like, tons of claims. Actually, the jazz musician Charles Mingus went and saw her. Okay. Because he had ALS and could.

not play his double bass and was, you know, unable to do life the way he used to. And he went and visited her and she did surgery on him. And he felt cured. Wow. Okay. You know what? Then fuck my thoughts. Okay. Good for you. But he also like passed away shortly after. So, you know, but again, I don't know. What a mess. What a mess. You know what? I hope, you know what? And even if, even if that stuff works, I'm charging my laptop. Yeah. Even if that stuff does work, we would never know for sure because then she would also get whisked away to the White House, wouldn't she?

No, it's true. No, you're totally right. So what do I fucking know? You're totally right. So, but Grinberg believed her. Like she invited him to come be with her while she did these, to take notes, to document what was going on. And he said that she was capable of, quote, materializing and dematerializing objects, organs, and tissue.

That's incredible. That is pretty incredible if it's true. Yeah, amazing. So also, Doniopecita would occasionally get in trouble with the government because she was, quote, practicing voodoo rights, which I guess was no-no or frowned upon or illegal. So, like, people from the government would come looking for her. and no matter how hard they looked for her, she disappeared. Like for long periods of time, she would just disappear.

And everywhere they looked, she just was not there. And then as soon as they stopped looking for her, she was back. So there was the belief that she had just dematerialized herself, which is amazing. Which like, she can just like run away or like drive off or something. But I like it. They're like, no, no, this is. She must be her own ghost sometimes. I mean, again, I don't know for sure.

I don't know. But I love the idea that she jointed herself out of existence for as long as those guys were looking for her. Let's say I hope it's true. That feels like a, that would certainly rouse the crowd. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay. So because of this and like all of the work he's done up until this point and his work with Donya Pachita, he developed a theory called.

Synturgic theory. The word is Synturgy. He made it up. It's a combination of the words synthesis and energy. Okay. And essentially, this is where I'm going to just like dumb it way down because I'm not going to be using words like I'm not going to be saying neurophysiology and like all of that stuff. Okay. Thank you. Thank you for knowing my spirit. Also just because I think people glaze over. I think everyone gets. I think, you know, it can be explained and everyone gets it. But like I just think that it's just it requires more active listening than I think a lot of us have the energy for. Uh-huh. Yes. Okay. So here's what he thought. He thought that essentially, M, he thought we lived in a matrix. That's, I mean, like, that's the long and short of it.

He believed we lived in a matrix. So he thought that there was an energy matrix called the lattice that permeates the entire universe. It contains all possible information in a, a holographic form. And he believed that our brains are not just perceiving the world and like, you know, taking in images and flipping them back upside down, upside right and putting them in our brain. He believes that our brains are actually translators, taking in the energetic field around us, and then filtering and organizing the energetic field and creating what we believe.

believe is reality. I want to pause and applaud you because I know that you made that sound like you just said it one time, but I know you probably sat with that for 45 minutes and tried to exactly write that sentence. I've been so nervous for so long. I just want to like acknowledge that like I know what what efforts you went through to try to say that in one concise statement. You're very sweet. Thank you for thank you for that. Does it sort of make, does it sort of make sense? Yes, it does sort of make sense. It sort of makes sense. So, like, yeah, so he believed that everything that we see around us is real, but the specific things that we are seeing and feeling and, you know, hearing with all of our senses, maybe as dependent on each of our own individual brains as it is on the actual world around us.

I mean, it's, it, if tell me if I'm wrong, but I'm kind of understanding it as that forever theory of like, is my red, you're red. Exactly. Yes. Yes. It's like you could be blue to me. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Totally. Totally. And in his framework, what we see as objects or space or whatever is really a distortion of the lattice around us caused by the way that our brain processes it. So like the way that I think of it is because it's because people use the word the matrix, I kind of picture like a neon green three dimensional like parallel lines. and a grid, yeah. Right? Yeah. And then I picture our individual brains, taking fingers, reaching out into that grid

and starting to like pull lines together into different shapes and creating like a tree and then creating a bird. That's God's job. Right, that's God's job. God's job. It just morphs some of those lines and other things.

That's kind of what I picture this is saying. Okay. So he believes, that people who were really good at this and had high levels of what he called neural coherence, which you could get through like meditation or specific mental states that you could be in. If you were really good at this, you would be able to interact more directly with the lattice itself, with the grid, the matrix itself, potentially explaining this miraculous phenomena that, like, don't Pachita could potentially do.

He believed that she was actually so in tune and like at a higher level of being that she could manipulate the lattice, the matrix, to create a new liver, to improve someone's uterus and to actually make herself bleep out for a while and just sort of like become part of the lattice. Because she had a really high level of like vibration with the whole thing.

I understand the words you're saying, but the theory I was down with until this part. Yeah. And now I don't. So when I say I don't believe it, it doesn't mean I don't understand you. Yeah. I, they lost me. It's a bridge too far. It's like, I was down with like, oh, yeah, we live in a Matrix.

Like that's pretty similar to like, oh, we live in a simulation, blah, blah, I could see that. But then all of a sudden it's like, oh, so she's now, she can also pluck the strings and unplug them and pluck them and and do a little knitting with them and make her own things. That's right. I'm like, I'm like that, that part's a little silly for me, but yeah, whatever. Look, I mean, totally. And he, a lot of people felt the exact same way that, that you feel. One, one thing I was researching, they were talking about, they were using all of the space

that exists. Like people, like there's, you know, we're made up of atoms, molecules, and there's space between all of that. Like, there's space between all of our electrons. There's space. There's so much space, actually. And everything is like 99.99% of everything is mostly just empty space. And so they're sort of implying that, well, with all that much space, there's room to, like, move around and move stuff around. And again, I get it on an intellectual level, but my gut, my gut wants it to be true. It would be real gnarly.

Like, it would be a very interesting conversation to have if it were real. But I got me a hunch. Yeah. And I disagree. By the way, do you see where, like, my true crime story is absolutely just like woo-wooing back into your... 100%. Yeah. I don't know how we did that.

We did not discuss ahead of time. It happens a lot. There was you and I, after the last time that you and I recorded, you just sent me a picture of like your lucky number had just shown up. And right when I got off the phone with you, I looked and my lucky number had just shown up. Oh, get out. Well, that's amazing. That's perfect. All right.

So now here's the experiment. He was like, this is the first level of the experiment that he would end up kind of trying to replicate his entire life. So in this day and age, we're all just trying to be better, people. We're trying to feel better. We're trying to feel more healthy. drinking more water. We talk about that a lot, getting some movement in and our vitamins, but people miss their liver health. And it's so important. I've been researching this too. Your liver affects literally everything. Your health of your liver affects your energy, your digestion, how your

skin looks even, your metabolism. And it's time we give it some love. Dose for your liver is a clinically backed liver health liquid supplement taken in a daily two-ounce shot and it tastes just like fresh squeezed orange juice. Can confirm as soon as I had it in the fridge. It went missing. And Allison, drink it. What does the liver even do? It is your body's filter. So it processes everything that you consume and performs over 500 daily functions like energy production, digestion, fat metabolism, vitamin storage, all things that I desperately need help with. It's got real results. They have two double-blind placebo-controlled studies showing its positive impact on liver enzyme levels. I was like, hell yeah, I'm into that. If you're ready to give your liver the support it deserves,

head to dosedaily.co slash drink or enter drink to get 35% off your first subscription. Your body does so much for you. So let's do something for it. That's D-O-S-E-D-A-I-L-Y. Dot C-O-S-R-R-S-Rourn for 35% off your first month subscription and drink it before your girlfriend does. He developed an experiment that he believed showed some of the first steps toward proving that telepathy exists. He called it transferred potential. Oh, love that. Love it. Great name. Better than Synthergy or whatever the hell that was. That was crazy.

Syntorgy M. Get the made up word right. Sorry, I can't. He had two people that would meditate together, and that was like to kind of synchronize them, get them on, you know, get them all connected. And then he would put them in separate, shielded rooms. They would not be able to see each other.

They would not be able to see anything that was going on in the other person's room. Okay. And then in one of their rooms, a light would flash. And the other person's brain would show a corresponding electrical spike in response to the light, despite the fact that they were not the one who saw the light. I feel like at some point, this came across my desk. And I've heard about this. Yeah. I feel like so in college I one of my like senior thesis papers was about ESP oh hell you so you definitely have heard of this I feel like I have heard this or at least there was like a replicated experiment well and also this gets into a lot of the twin studies stuff too so I think that this I mean this is not an abnormal test but I think like what is it like the Minneapolis twin studies or something like?

like that there i think they were done in i think they were done in minnesota but i should know what that is maybe i've covered it shit i don't know anymore it was like an in earnest study of twins and like the connection and the the odd things that happen between twins like you know one like they lose touch for 20 years one gets their arm cut off the other one suddenly feels a stab of pain kind of stuff right i i i'm thinking of um the that crazy true crime case with the triplets where they went where they all each other. That's wild. Insane. But the idea, it's the same kind of idea of like they're connected somehow in a way that most people aren't and we're not fully sure how it happens. Like this all sort of plays in the same sandbox a little bit. It's very odd. Yeah, it's very, very odd. Okay,

so he would do this experiment multiple times. It became famous. And he stated that whenever he did it overall about a quarter of his subjects showed that quote transferred potential so 75 but 25% did I feel like that's still a big chunk my crazy though like there's a one and four chance that you're going to get it I think it's a big chunk I think it is a big chunk um this also seems to be one of the experiments that he wouldn't let people come in and visit when he was doing them and so one of the criticisms is that there's no way of no, like they can see the brain scans that he had from each of the participants that showed that there was a spike for both of them. Okay. But there was no way for people to know if he hadn't just faked it and also like turned a light on on the other person's

room as well. And so the brain spike was caused because he turned lights on in both rooms. Right, right, right, right. That totally makes sense. So, but, but let's say this is all legit and this is what happened. He felt like this showed the existence of that lattice being all around us and it connected our minds. The lattice is this person sees a light, but the lattice is connected to this person too because they meditated together and so this person's brain is reacting. In my mind, if we're doing like the laser green grid kind of thing, I imagine on one end, someone's like plucking it like a guitar string and the vibration plucks them back. Exactly. That's exactly. Yep. You got it. That's exactly. I mean, I am a scientist. You are a scientist. I'm just saying.

Okay. Okay. So, interestingly, anyone who knows anything about the CIA knows that the CIA was doing some real woo-woo stuff. Sure. M.K. Yeah, that's right.

They're also doing something called Project Stargate. Oh, okay. Who do you think it's to name them? Who do you think it's to pick Stargate versus like, blah, blah, blah. I know. I'm fascinated by the names. They always sound so impressive.

and then you realize that it's like just dudes sitting in a room going like, I wonder if I can think real hard and someone else will notice. Well, also, like, as an actress, you know that they, um, the TV shows and movies, like they all have a fake name when they're filming. Yes. Or at least bigger productions do. So nobody finds out where they actually are. Yeah.

And I'm always like, how'd you pick that? Like I used to like, some of that makes sense. I worked on, um, when I did. did stranger things that it used be called the Montauk project, which makes sense because it was like based on Project Montock. Yeah. But then there's other ones where like, um, Ant Man was like cherry blue. And I'm like, why?

Why? Or, uh, Spider Man was, uh, the summer of George. And I'm like, who's picking these? That's, I know that Joker was Romeo was the secret title. Like, how does it happen? Like, some of them like had some like, oh, I get that that that's kind of like a nod or like someone might be able to pick up on. But the random ones and like how?

Like who's who was there a vote or did someone just say two random words together? Or like it was it an inside joke? You know right right. Or yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I never know. I was assumed Romeo and Joker was like this is the same number of letters. But I don't know if that's.

Oh. I have I have no idea. I have no idea. But anyway, okay. So I'm going to pretend the same people who pick things like Romeo and Cherry Blue also picked Stargate. Yeah, totally. Project Stargate.

It sounds cool. I think they want to sound cool. and they want to sound like they're working on a cool thing. Of course. Project Stargate was a CIA project where they were exploring the military applications of psychic phenomena. This is when they were trying to see

if you could like remote view and talk to people through your brain in Korea. So because his work seemed like it might someday create a reliable biological method for non-local communication. Okay. This is what they were trying to do. So there's, like, released CIA documents that mention him.

They were keeping an eye on him and they were aware of what he was doing. Okay, but, like, imagine being this guy and people, not that they didn't believe in you, but no one really thought it was going to get this far. And all of a sudden, it's like, no, the CIA keeps tabs on me. So, like, I'm fucking close. Yeah. One of my favorite stories about the CIA documents is, you know, the author, Philip K. Dick. So he was constantly, apparently, saying that like the CIA was tapping his phone. He was very

paranoid that the CIA was onto him. And apparently, I don't, I haven't checked. But the story is that one day, like a family member asked for his files, the CIA files. And they released them. And it was just every time that Philip K. Dick reached out to the CIA to accuse them of following him. Like they hadn't actually been, but it was just like, but also, no, he was. the CIA the way we do, which is only through leaked stories, that's also probably fake and they probably had like a full documentation, but they just gave a fake one to him. But it still is funny and it makes me laugh. That's so funny. You know, you're the second person who's mentioned his name this week. Yo. What's going on? What's going on? Telepathy.

Who connected neural network. All right. So, oh, I don't know if you forgot. He disappeared one day. Oh, right. Yes. Okay. He disappeared. So a few days before he went missing, Grinberg called his daughter, who has my favorite, favorite name, which is Astusha. I think Estusha is like such a beautiful name. What does it mean? No idea. It does sound like a sneeze to me. Oh, yeah, that's fair. Yeah. Astusha.

It's the female sneeze. Is it Russian? It sounds like, I can imagine a Russian woman going, Astusha. Estusha. It might have like Polish origins. I don't know. It also sounds Spanish to me, but maybe that's just because it ends an A.

And I am an ignorant American. But anyway, so he called Astusha to tell her about a trip that he was going to take to Kathmandu. And he was going to reportedly try to do this transferred potential experiment across continents. So he's committing to that. Oh, yeah. he's taking it to the next level, baby. Good for him. So in 1994, extended family and friends and students of his realized that they had not heard from him in a while. And as they started checking in with each other, they discovered that his daughter, his two brothers and his assistant, a woman

named Ruth Cereso, who was super loyal to him. They had not seen him either. So Grinberg was last seen on December 8th, 1994. He was expected to show up to a birthday party they were throwing for him because his birthday was in a few days. But he failed to appear at his own 48th birthday party. Wow. Okay. That was not like him.

He was close to his family. He loved his students. He was like responsible. He never would have just not shown up for like a lab session or, you know, he just, he would have, this wasn't like him at all. Right. So people started looking first and foremost at his second wife, whose name was Teresa Mendoza. Okay.

She had given conflicting stories to his family about what was going on. So she claimed that he was on a secret trip to Compeche, which is a port city on the Gulf of Mexico. And then shortly after the investigation into his disappearance began, she, also disappeared. Oh. And she has never been found either. What the fuck? Okay, so what are your theories?

Because is like, did they take both of them so nobody would hear about any more of this conversation or did, could it have been that it had nothing to do with the government and she killed them or something and then ran off? So, okay. So there's some theories here. Some people believe that she had something to do with it. They investigators found that her, uh, found that Grinberg's relationship with todaysha was volatile.

Uh, he had apparently left a voicemail for one of his siblings saying that she was persecuting him. That feels like a translation thing. I'm, because persecuting. I don't, my guess is that she was like being awful or she was, you know, like controlling him or the persecuting seems like a different. Yeah, it could be more like I feel attacked or accused or something. Yeah, exactly. A lot of people in the family reported that she suffered from bipolar. So they were concerned that there was like maybe some unregulated behavior going on that like she needed some help with.

Some even claimed that her own family didn't know she was married. And and then I'm just going to quote from, so the American Scholar website wrote an amazing piece on this. I'm going to quote them. They're going to be linked in the sources. It said, quote, Grinberg's close circle, so his brother is his daughter, his first wife, and Aunt Hilda, felt that Teresa was an imposter who represented a physical threat, that she was part of a larger coterie with a vested interest in controlling him for whatever reason. So she was like a plant. She was, what do they call them? It's what they think. A mole? Kirk was.

Like a Like a fake wife Like got in there with with on a mission. Yeah, yeah. She was like an undercover agent. She was like a honey. Like a honey pot or is that the honey? Yeah, honey a honey trap.

Honey trap. Honey pot is the brand of women's tampons and pads. Okay. Honey trap. Honey trap. She was a honey trap. One of one of his brothers said that Grinberg actually feared he would be murdered. Oh shit.

And he said this during his final visit with that brother. So there's also weird stuff where she was telling people weird things. So she apparently told they had like multiple properties. She told the watchman at their house in in Borales, don't come back to work because her husband had flown to Guadalajara. But then she told his stepmom a few days later that he was actually in Campeche. And then she was supposed to fly to Nepal with him, but then someone reported seeing her in Tijuana on the beach. And like she was reportedly linked to a night watchman at a school through some telephone calls that were placed in Mexico in the U.S.

And apparently this guy had like paramilitary backgrounds. Like there's a whole there's like a whole, there's a whole rabbit hole. Oh my God. Of fur. The plot twist is that that cabaret singer has been blipping around and out of four. the world. That's right. Chucking her all over the place.

Have you heard the theory that Earth and our universe is actually inside a black hole? No. But honestly, that I believe, of all the things you've said today, that one doesn't surprise me anymore. It makes me lose sleep.

It's like, why have we not had any contact with any other intelligent life, like the Fermi paradox? Oh, I didn't cover that at some point where that blew that I never thought about it until I looked at all the numbers and it's like why haven't we heard from anybody yeah one of the theories is that we're actually inside a black hole and it's why our universe apparently spins a different direction than most of that like it's just and it's almost like our internet connection is cut off that's exactly that's yeah it makes me

not able to breathe sometimes so it's like oh maybe they're just they got they got blipped into a different black hole anyway some people also believe that she killed him and then like fled. It does feel like the easier option. Yeah. Like it feels, Occam's razor, it feels like the least assumptions required is that she had something to do with it.

I do not think it can be ignored that she also disappeared. Yeah. That's fucking weird. I mean, it feels like if the easiest one to me is that she killed him and then ran off before anyone would find out. But I could also see the government being like she's also like, could compromise the case or something.

She knows too much. I mean, one of the things that people raise is like what would she have gotten from it? Because it seemed like she cashed a check for $1,000 from his publisher. But that was it. It didn't seem like she, you know, had a ton of money coming to her, especially since she disappeared. And so it's not like someone emptied out his bank accounts and then she disappeared. It's just it doesn't seem like she had anything to gain, but also maybe it was random. I mean, she actually didn't have anything to gain, but did it anyway.

Okay. Okay. So here are some other theories. Let me scroll down my notes. Please hold. So part of it, some people were thinking that it had to do with the government, but not for reasons why you think. So the same year that he went missing, there was also significant upheaval when a group known as the Zapatistas stormed multiple locations in the southern state of Chiapas demanding equal rights for the indigenous population.

Okay. So at this time, remember he went missing in December, so he had like all of 1994 to be running around Mexico. So that year, on January 1st, the North American Free Trade Agreement between Mexico, the US, and Canada had gone into effect. And the indigenous people in Mexico were like, hey, once again, we are being overlooked and left behind, just like always. And so they, you know, started fighting back. And that's what the Zapatistas were protesting. That's what they were doing. They were, like, fighting for indigenous rights.

Sure. And Grinberg was all about this and super supportive because, again, he was super, he felt very connected to, like, indigenous practices and the history of his country. And, like, so he was on board. So he was like going to marches. He was signing public letters. He started then feeling like he might be being followed. And so some people believe that he was taken out because he was a very high profile figure.

People knew who he was. And he was also saying things against the government because he was pro like indigenous rights. Okay. So I mean that also sounds like very feasible. Totally. It feels like one of the more reasonable things. So an investigator named Clemente Padilla took on Grinberg's case, and this guy was like a superstar detective. He, I don't, if I'm not mistaken, up until that point, he had solved every case he took on.

Wow. Yeah. Talk about a track record. Yeah. Yeah. In sports, that would be a good track record. That's Babe Ruth or something. That's right.

Bay Bruce or something. You got it. And I know what you're talking about. And I agree. Some LeBron James, I don't know. So he checked to see, first and foremost, if Grinberg had been seen in Kathmandu and realized that no, he had not. No airline had any record of Grinberg using a plane ticket, and passport control did not show him moving through,

and it didn't seem like he even left Mexico. And then Padilla discovered that Grinberg's home had been scrubbed of evidence, And eventually Padilla claimed that his investigation was shut down by high-ranking officials within the Mexican government. Okay. And that was that about his investigation. He just had to stop. He just had to stop. Wow.

So one of the cool things about Grinberg's daughter, Astusha, my favorite name, Astusha. Sneezy of the dwarves. I love her. She's my favorite dwarf. She was in a band called Heaven and Earth. She was the lead singer and she was badass and she remains badass to this day. So because she toured and was the lead singer of a band, she had media connections and was able to get on TV and say, hey, my dad is missing.

Can you keep an eye out for him? That's awesome. It's so cool. And people started calling in, but like every single call just wasn't, none of it checked out. And it's also kind of amazing how many people look like each other, like, and have the same names. And it just, there just wasn't anything. I'm sure. And also the description could just be like, brown hair, brown eyes.

And then it's like, well, now that's everybody. Yes. Yes. And if you look at a picture of Grinberg and you look at a picture of like Philip K. Dick. And then also you look at a picture of who's the guy who wrote Game of Thrones. H.H. Riley, whatever his name is. They all like identical. Yeah, they all look like each other.

Perfect. So, all right, so here's some more, because we don't know, spoiler alert, we don't know. We don't know. We don't know. We've never found him. Yeah, it sounds like the government just swiped him.

He's gone. He knocked him off the planet, yeah. He got yeated from existence and like right before he was supposed to do this massive experiment. So a lot of people think that the timing is very suspicious. I see. So, the person who wrote the American Scholar article said, quote, I once heard from a person claiming to have seen Grinberg in January of 1995 in Western Mexico, boarding a spaceship made of three perfectly delineated spheres.

So this is like kind of where it's out now. So, okay, we've really, it's devolved into he is either an alien or friends with them or their little play thing that they're now taking away. Yeah, that's right. That's right. So, okay, so there's the CIA NASA hypnosis, which is pretty popular for obvious reasons. People think that Grinberg was either abducted by the CIA or by NASA, which I don't know if NASA does a lot of abducting, but I feel like the CIA does more. Yeah. You know, if we're, if we're scaling both of them, I would agree with you. I feel

like NASA's not so interested. Yeah. If I have to be basing, babysat by either the CIA or NASA. I choose NASA. I mean, I choose NASA, but they're not coming. CIA is. No, they're not coming. So or people think that he was, quote, recruited slash forced into, like, American intelligence.

Did you see Project Tail Mary? I haven't, and I need to. It's similar of, like, getting recruited for something just because you happen to be really good at this one thing. Yeah. And, like, I love the movie arrival. Because, have you seen a rival? Amy Adams? Yeah.

Yeah. Because purely for the scene where she breaks down sentence structure, I'm on the whiteboard, I, sometimes I just watch that scene because it's- There's actually something very similar in Project Tell Mary. I freaking love it. Like, they made that process of being forced to work for the CIA like way, way more, yeah, fun seeming, but. It was, it was a very good movie.

I didn't mean to take you away, but, but I mean, I immediately thought that when you said, like, oh, he's just being escorted onto a ship, and he's, this is where, this is his job now. Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. A helicopter comes and lands on your lawn in the middle of the night, and now you work for the CIA. And life is over, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Crazy. So they, so that's a, that's a theory.

And they think that the CIA's interest wasn't necessarily in his philosophy, but more like in the transferred potential. They just wanted to see if he could, like, communicate to people across the ocean. because also one of the things that people think about that points to the CIA is that his lab was suddenly seized. Like all of his stuff disappeared. That alone. That actually, unless his wife who in theory one killed him. Yeah.

Unless she was trying to make it really look like it was someone that wasn't her and she destroyed the lab as a red herring to keep people away. unless she did that, it was fully the government. Totally fully the government. He also felt like there were some people who were following him near the end of his life or the end of before he disappeared. But also, so there's like sort of a through line of some mental illness that goes on. He has a brother whose name is, I'm going to find his name, Ari Talch. And he's actually a famous actor in Mexico.

Oh, cool. And Ari's Wikipedia page says that he has bipolar. And it sounds like maybe Grinberg may have also, some people wonder if he had some mental illness stuff going on because he was more paranoid. He seemed to be getting more and more like. Manic? A little bit. Yeah, like manic and more kind of out there with his ideas more than normal for him. Sure.

So there was. I, not to play devil's advocate here, but I also think that, like, people who think differently are often the most creative of problem solver. So maybe he really was onto something because of his mental health. I don't know. Yeah. No, absolutely. Maybe he was manic. Or, you know, who knows? It could be both. Both. Both could, you know, both could all be true. Um, yeah. So, so, so, so that's the idea about, like, the CIA and all of that. There's also an idea that is, like, incredibly offensive to his family. Okay.

I laugh out of discomfort, not because I think it's funny. So there is a spiritual mystic whose name is Shiva Shambho. Okay. And some people believe a little bit like the Kurt Cobain, who's the lead singer of Weezer. You know, people think like the lead singer of Weezer and Kirk Cobain are the same person. I'm going to look it up just because he's going to tell me. His first name is plural, which makes no sense to me. Rivers Cuomo.

People think that Rivers Cuomo and Mr. Nirvana are the same person. So the same thing is going in here. So the recently social media rumors claimed that Grinberg was living in Puebla as a mystic named Shiva Shampo, who's a real person. This man is his own real person. His name is Jose Antonio Ramon Calderon. And they think that these men are the same man. They think that Grinberg changed his identity and became Shiva Shambho based on similarity that they perceive in the two men's voices and gestures. Sure.

I could see people coming up with a story like that because it's like, oh, he was already so out there and nobody got him and he needed to go. He thought he needed to go into hiding. So now he's just redone himself. And it's like, I get it. But also you said that this guy is a totally other person. Yeah, he has like a birthday. You know, like he's like, he's like, he didn't come out of nowhere. He has a mom.

And, you know, so like, and they also went so far as to do biometric studies. Like they tried to fit. People on YouTube have broken this down. Like it's a real lipstick gate situation with Joclema, right? So. But, but I think, so it was broken down. I think like 33% of their facial markers matched. The thing that,

here's the problem with conspiracy theories as someone who loves a fun one is like, you can never disprove them because that's not what it's about. It's like, well, you can't prove that they didn't do this thing. So a lot of people believe that because Grinberg was all about the way you perceive reality can be changed. People are like, well, he changed his genetic markers. He became this other. He like, he changed his whole physical presentation. Sure. He's so in tune with this lattice network. So you just,

there's no way to say no. Okay. But his brother says that's stupid and he hates it and it's disrespectful. And he thinks that it doesn't do his brother any favors. And he reminds people that his brother was is a real person who did real work and had brilliant and exciting new ideas that were really, really different from a lot of things that people at the time were thinking and trying to reduce him down to, oh, I think that he might be this other guy I heard of once is right. It's just also it's condescending. It's like, yeah.

Yes. So there's essentially it's just like the one that I did last time with, you know, the boat, where it's like, we don't, we don't know what happened. We don't know where his wife went. We don't know where he went. But what his family. Oh, we love a mystery. Oh, we love a mystery.

And like what his family really wants people to take away is that he was a whole person, just like the, just like the people in your story, M, who were like whole people who had this awful thing happened to them. He was a man who existed and had these incredible ideas. and his daughter actually helped re-release some of his writings, like six volumes, I think, through Penguin. They released some of his work to like raise awareness of what he did because he isn't super well known.

I don't feel like this was my first time ever hearing about him. And I love this kind of stuff. And it's not like I have my finger on the pulse of like, you know, woo-woo stuff on the internet, but I feel like it doesn't make sense that we haven't heard about him more. haven't heard about him more, you know? I mean, I guess it's if if the government took him, then they got exactly what they wanted by people slowly forgetting who he is.

But yeah, that's true. But yeah, you would think someone would, maybe someone is secretly out there carrying on the torch and carrying on with his stuff. Dude, that's my hope because in my head, he, he went missing. And he is fine and happy somewhere floating. and someone snuck in, like the next generation, some young buck snuck in took all of his stuff and secreted away and is like carrying on his experiments.

Yeah, I mean, I hope that he absolutely was actually in charge of his disappearance and he just left it in some cryptic way for another. Or maybe it wasn't, didn't have to be a cryptic writing. Maybe he was like, for those who have the eyes to see, I'll find you in the lattice. Oh, man! And we'll talk there. That's such a cool bumper sticker.

I would wear, I would put that on it. Like, I really, I really feel like this is, his work is really fascinating. And I think that he has a lot in common with Philip K. Dick, they both talked about the idea of like this being a simulation well before that was a super popular idea. Yeah. And I also have really simplified all of this way down. So if you are listening and are like an expert on this topic, I really hope I did at least a decent job of trying to explain it because there's so much more to it. And I highly recommend people take a really deep look at it because he was fascinating. His work was fascinating.

And yeah, I hope I just wasn't like, I hope I wasn't unintentionally disrespectful in my attempt to make this like understandable. Same to me about the entire disability community. We just are stumbling over ourselves in our attempts here, but I was like, I was like, man, I'm rusty. I like clearly don't use like this verbiage all that often for me to be like wondering what I'm saying. But no, I personally think you did a fine job. I won't think you. But I love a theory, love a mystery, love a mystery, love someone discovered something and now they're missing. There was, there was a guy online right now.

he within the last year discovered a way to create energy off of recycled plastic. Like no gasoline needed anymore, like just like how to energy off of plastic. And so that way not only are you getting us clean energy without any fuels. Yeah. Or any like fossil fuels. Yeah. But also you're also recycling at the same time. And like he even showed it like on videos how he can like.

like turn a car on like you put put it in the in the gas tank of his car and the car works like everyone in the comments is like I need you to like let us know that you're alive and you do not have any ideation and because everyone is convinced the government's coming like you cannot just post that on ticot and not expect to go missing it right away and then for a while he literally did go missing but he just stopped posting for a little bit because you like that you can't do that bro everyone was like, please, where are you? Where are you? I mean, like, the smartest thing he did was publicly make himself known so that if he goes

missing, we all know what, because, oh, man. But he, like, he, if you, if you go look it up, he really has done it. And it's like, well, you are either going to be a billionaire or not alive. I just feel like, I feel like, unfortunately, we live in a hellscape where those are the only two options in my brain? Yeah, no, that's it. No, that's it. He needs to open source his information if he doesn't want to patent it and make a million dollars because if they take him, that's it. Then that's, now that's gone. Agreed. Oh, well, you did a great job telling the story. Oh, thank you, and thank you for your story. I was, that's, thank you for finally connecting those Cropsy dots,

because I, I knew that there was something I was missing in the middle of that story. You know, I, I actually, I thought about doing it forever ago, like a year ago. And then I, looked at and it was just so much longer than I thought and I was like I thought this guy was supposed to be just like a I'm in the woods and then it just I saw the notes growing and growing and then when I knew you were going to come on last time I thought oh this would be a great time and I got overwhelmed again so totally I'm happy that it's I'm happy it's finally out of the way but in case anybody uh from statin island has anything to say about it uh please leave a comment let me know if I missed something but otherwise it's it's done there's Cropsey go tell your

friends tell you tell your campers yes and uh that's it what do you have going on for the rest of the day you know what i am going to see if there's a york peppermin patty waiting for me or not after all this time would he really only give you one there better be a whole bag well i mean i just i just i just i simply only want one should i see what's wrong with you you don't at least a backup i i mean i don't know i'm trying you know i'm just i'm trying because tomorrow's pizza Friday, obviously. And so like I'm trying to not eat every sugar before pizza Friday because pizza Friday all they're the size of a quarter, Bethany. You can have 50 cents. The big ones. The big ones. The ones that are the size of a hamburger patty plate. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That's better.

Yeah. That's an actual peppermint paddy. Yeah. Versus like these little. You know, it's not like a quarter. It's like a, it's like a full dish of patty, you know. I see. I might tell me what hurt afterwards. It's a lot of mint. No? Okay. No, I respect that. I respect it. I love it York Perman Patty, but I like the little ones because then I can just keep throwing them in there like I'm a casino machine.

Like you're a slot machine? Like I'm a slot machine. Are you, do you freeze them? Yes. Oh, yes. You freeze them too? I do freeze them. I like that.

Do you, first of all, do you like frosting? But flavor. Doesn't matter? It doesn't matter. No, it doesn't matter. I mean, I don't mind frosting. Although if I'm eating a cupcake, the frosting is not my main character. See, this is a symbiotic relationship because frosting is my main character.

Oh, see, no, I've many, many times, I would argue half the time, just take the frosting off of meat the cake. Okay, so here's the thing. So when we move in together, Allison can come, Dennis can come. Okay? So we are symbiotic cupcake partners. And it's funny because I've only ever had one other symbiotic cupcake partner. and they weren't, we don't talk anymore and I don't know what happened. Well, because I think they got into the frosting and they were like, actually, Bethany's

been on to something this whole time. Yeah, no, totally. It's not going to work anymore. So I put cupcakes in the freezer to make the frosting a little harder so it fights back a little bit more because I like that. That's full nightmare. No, it's good. But so then I just eat yours and then you get cupcake and I get frosting.

I mean, I really just want cake. There have been times where I baked a cake and the people are like, are you going to decorate it? I'm like, this, this is it. This is the masterpiece. Is the frosting too sweet? What is it? Maybe. I don't know.

I don't know. You explain yourself hard frosting by itself. Yeah, dude. Bite into it. No, I think, I mean, I really, I prefer things that are light versus, like, really rich. And so the, the, like, intense sweetness of frosting is just too much for me. And then also, if I'm going to eat frosting, it has to be from a can. I cannot fucking stand when people.

try to make frosting. Don't get away from me. No, get away with your homemade frosting. Don't you dare. You know what I would love. The perfect frosting is not frosting at all. It is the chocolate half of a black and white cookie. That's the perfect frosting. Bro, now we're on the same page. I feel like a black and white cookie is just a cupcake that went through a press. That's right. It went. It just, it had a hard day and it fell into one of those pasta rollers. And it came out, you know what? It's an even better version of itself. Do you like the white part of a black and white cookie?

Because I literally just want a black cookie all the time. I will absolutely eat the white part. So we're symbiotic there too as well. This is magic. This is magical. Now here's one more question. Yeah. This is a real make or break friendship.

Like we haven't already been friends for like a decade. How is, what do you feel about artisanal macaroni and cheese? Literally, fuck off. Fuck off with that. Don't you dare put troubles? Did I just mention this to you recently? Like there I've had this conversation. I'm not kidding.

It's May 14th. Since May 1st, I've had this conversation with at least four or five people. I don't know what's going on right now. There's an epidemic. There must be something going on. Specifically with the phrase, artisanal mac and cheese. Specifically that phrase and every time I've said, fuck off with that. Who the fuck do you think you are?

I swear to God if someone ever says, I'm going to make you some mac and cheese. Here's some breadcrumbs on top. How about you go to hell? How about if you don't, us out a blue box with some orange ass noodles on the front of it. I don't know what you're doing. Don't you dare put tomatoes in there. Don't put mushroom.

Don't put any sort of, don't you put anything. I want a powder. Well, I, okay, here's. I will, and I, the only mac and cheese I like from scratch is mine. It's the only one I like. And it is incredibly simple because I'm like, I want, I said, mac and cheese. Yeah. Yes.

It's not called. I don't know where we fucking thought. And. Crumbs and bacon bits. Oh. Don't. And the truffle, I heard you say truffle earlier. That can absolutely go right in the trash.

How dare you? Well, because somebody said to me, I was at a restaurant with somebody. They were like, oh, mac and cheese. And I went, oh, do you eat mac and cheese at restaurants? And I said it actually meet her. But I said that because I was like, I've never met a mac and cheese at a restaurant I enjoyed ever. Not once. Because every single one of them is trying to stand.

out from the rest, which means they're trying to do a thing with it. And then they're like, well, ours has this type of cheese. And I'm like, I didn't fucking ask for that. Look, I said, I want a comfort food. Why am I now at the four seasons? That's right. That's right. I want slop and a bowl.

Slop in front of me. Put it in my mouth directly. Just hose it in. Like, don't you dare. I have, like, if I'm going to go to a really nice restaurant and I have been at really nice restaurants, brag. And if they, tell me. if they're like, would you like the mac and cheese?

There had better be on that menu sponsored by craft. Yeah. I would have so much more respect for you if your mac and cheese at your four Michelin Star restaurant is from a box and it's Kraft macaroni and cheese because I know you know who you are. I am so glad we're on the same page with this. I can't believe it's like you're, I mean, I know we just talked about telepathy for the last hour, but I really have had this conversation. I'm not kidding, with so many people in my life

very recently. That is legitimately bizarre. That is very, very strange. And every single one I've said, if it's not craft or a soul food, a true soul food restaurant, I don't want it. Like, it's not that. And every person's like, oh, maybe we should split the mac and cheese. How about, no? No, you have the whole thing yourself because your garbage taste makes you want it. And you know what? It's at this point that I feel like I've insulted somebody at a restaurant who's like, but you have to try our mac and cheese respectfully no thank you is it mac is it craft macaroni and cheese is a craft cheese and macaroni i think it's buffalo wild wings or something but their kids mac and cheese i think is just craft in which case i'd get that great it's not that hard but if they're

like oh you can't because you're over 12 then i'll buy two chop chop yeah exactly suck it but i don't know i don't know i get really and i'm gentlelister i'm sorry if like you love artisanal mac and cheese and we've just hurt your feeling so much. I just got to tell you, sometimes you have to take a stand for something, right? And I will still, I still respect you. We can all have different views, but like, I just am not going to be able to, I can't split the mac and cheese with you at, you know, the five-star Michelin over-expensive restaurant. I, and you know what, thank you for saying that because I, I agree, through and through that if you are a foodie, congratulations. Oh, yeah. It ain't me. No. I, um, Man, and you know what I hate?

Sorry, we've done this for way too long. The mac and cheese that has... It needs to be said. But they put like greer in Parmesan and I'm like... Go away. Like, I want it... I don't want cheese that is also in like an Alfredo or some fancy sandwich. Like, I want just stretchy mozzarella, some stretchy cheta.

Yep. Maybe one similar to that. If this cheese did not come out of the utter as an orange powder, I don't... I don't want it on my mac and cheese. If the, if the cow didn't go, P. That's right. If the person collecting the cheese did not come back in, take their sunglasses off,

and there is an outline in the counter of where their sunglasses were. Like an explosion in him in the face, like a mad scientist. It's working. Well, with that, everybody, I hope everyone has. a great week, and I hope you eat back in cheese that is done right. And thank you, Bethie, for being here. I really appreciate you hopping on for two whole episodes and, what did you say, Jerry O'Connell? I'll be your Jerry O'Connell any freaking day of the week, my dear.

Perfect. See everyone for another episode soon. And that's why you drink. That's why you drink. Where some see heroes and others see egos. Bloomberg sees the era of billionaire athletes. A fad to some. the future of money to others.

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