And That's Why We Drink - E500 Immortal Hallway Portals and Incriminating Insects

Episode Date: September 27, 2026

Ahhh!! It’s finally Episode 500!! So grab your favorite milkshake, mocktail, or cocktail and join us for this momentous occasion before the dreaded “Your moment has ended” screen appears. Today, Em takes us to Oregon for the haunted Wolf Creek Inn, where we encounter a ghost army, an absolutely unreasonable amount of Jolly Ranchers, and, of course, some classic Z.B. shenanigans. Then Christine brings us some history on Old Timey Forensics, which includes missing body parts, ancient insect forensics, and touches on some cases we’ve covered over the years. So thank you for coming along with us on this wild, weird, spooky, and surprisingly lemon-filled ride for all these years. We genuinely couldn’t have made it to 500 without you… and that’s why we drink!Want to listen ad-free? Join our Certified Yapper tier for $10/month on Patreon! Ad-free episodes starting at E469 at: http://patreon.com/ATWWDPodcast !Catch our bonus Yappy Hour intermissions on Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3L28lDw or subscribe on Patreon!___________________Go to https://curehydration.com/drink and get 20% off your first order with promo code DRINKLet Rocket Money help you reach your financial goals faster—join at https://RocketMoney.com/DRINK .Get $10 off your first month's subscription and free shipping at https://nutrafol.com with promo code DRINK.If you think you or someone you know might be struggling with OCD, please don't wait to get help. Go to https://learn.nocd.com/ATWWD and book a free call with their team to learn more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You know, every now and then a sponsor comes along where, you know, they'll send you talking points and, you know, what to say and all that. I don't even need the talking points. I use this company all the time. I love them so much. We are working with Zazzle. If you don't know what Zazel is, you're really missing out in the world of custom gifts. I love a gift. I love a custom gift. I love making them. I like getting them. I like all of it. And I have used Zazzle quite a lot in my time. This is not just a place where you just like put a design on a shirt. I don't know how true this is, but it feels like they have mastered finding a way to put a design on anything. There's tissue box covers. There's golf balls. You could do the mug or the

tote thing. I saw one person in the wild one time with a tie from Zazzle and he had like pictures of his dog all over the tie. Like Allison, I know you're listening and like you have pictures of Hank on your phone and also you have Zazel on your phone. So, you know, get to do it. It's so wonderful. if you wanted to get something custom, Zazzle is the place for you. And everything is made on demand. So there's no out of stock. You just pick it and customize it and it's handled. And over 30 million customers have trusted Zazel with their most important gifts. And so yours is next. 30 million. I did not know that. It's incredible. Zazzle is so cool. I use it all the time. So please go try them out. Right now. Save 25% on your first order at Zazel.com. That's 25% savings on your first order at Zazel.com. Go make something's amazing. Nice. Zazel.com. Where some see heroes and others see egos. Bloomberg sees the era of billionaire athletes. A fad to some, the future of money to others. We see crypto's trillion dollar swings.

The end of jobs or the end of human struggle. We see the endless funds fueling the AI hype. While others follow the noise, we follow the money. Learn more at Bloomberg.com. So I've talked a lot about OCD recently with people, and it's so eye-opening to hear the different kinds of OCD people have and the way it manifests differently for people. And it's been very eye-opening because I feel like I keep learning about OCD, and that's why I love that no-CD is a sponsor because they do have so many resources and so much information. And I do wish I had known about it sooner, but it's always helpful to learn. OCD is a lot more than just the stereotypes, you know.

It's a serious and highly misunderstood condition. It can cause stressful, unwanted thoughts, intrusive thoughts, as they're called. and they can be really debilitating. So it's not, it's not an easy road. And not every therapist understands OCD or is qualified to treat it effectively, which can make it difficult to find the right help. But OCD is highly treatable with a specialized type of therapy called ERP or exposure response prevention. And with an OCD, you can do live virtual ERP therapy with licensed therapists who specialize in OCD and OCD therapists are highly trained. So they really understand OCD and won't judge you no matter what your thoughts are about. And OCD therapy is covered by

insurance for over 155 million Americans. I mean, snaps. That's that's, that's, that's, that's amazing on top of everything else because even with the ERP therapy, which is what helped me get my compulsions under control many years ago and has remained like the most effective way to help with my OCD. I just always recommend OCD, but the fact that they do the insurance on top of it is awesome. If you think you or someone you know might be struggling with OCD, please don't wait to get help. Go to nocd.com and book a free call with their team to learn more. That's NOCD.com to schedule a free call and learn more. Okay, I just need like, just count to 500 and I'll be ready.

Okay, I'll do it like Leon. It does. One, two, three, six, 500. Tadda! Wow, now that's special. Everybody, it is our 500th episode. I'm trying to figure out how to make this the way it needs to be. Now, why did we get one-time balloons that said 666?

Hmm. Do you recall that day? Yep. Maybe that was like including listener? Because, no, because it was our, it was our sixth year. And so they just, like, our lovely team just made it demonic. Oh, that's so nice. They just tripled it.

And the man from balloonatics said, this is insane. And I said, you work for a company called balloonatics. And he said, actually, I founded it. And I said, please close the door. I must lock it now. So you're welcome for the business, by the way. So, like, balloonatics in a six, six, six order feels like exactly the right match is all I'll say. Yeah. A hundred percent. Wow, what a delightful little backdrop. 500 balloon. I'm no, sorry, 500 balloons. No, three balloons with 500 zero zero. You got it. How do I explain this? There's not 500 balloons, but there are. It feels like it sometimes. You know what? You know what? I just happy 500, Christine. I mean, obviously when you add up like listeners episodes and like, you know, Patreon and exactly six six six. I bet you today is six six.

if you like someone do the math it's girl math don't do the math because i think it's right okay well um we've definitely done already over a hundred listeners episodes so or right yeah so then that would make it 600 600 and then you add like anything we've done for parapods recently and patreon and anytime we've recorded with other people on their shows and then we get a little bit picky about like well only christine christine was like sneezing during this one we'll cut it that doesn't count you know and so by the time we get to christine fell asleep halfway through this one so i was going to mention that? I'm sorry. I know it's usually your joke. No, it's a good one. Do you have, I'm putting you on the spot so you can say no, but do you have, out of the official 500 episodes, do you have any

favorite little moments? You know, I was just talking to, I've, I've met a few people recently that are like, that I, it's so random. Like, it's just synchronous, like, going around and like doing, I've been trying to be just more, I don't know, but coming out of sort of a chrysalis type phase of like, I'm finally kind of getting back out into the world a little bit. And I've met some friends of friends and talked a lot about this kind of stuff because it's like, oh, when people find out what you do, they're like, oh, I want to talk about, I'm always curious, like, what podcast do you listen to? And also like, what kind of true crime, whatever?

And someone asked me, like, what are your favorites that you've covered? And I was like, ooh, it's been a long time. So I just had this conversation with like a new person, which was kind of fun. And I got to tell them all about Israel Keys. And that was one of my favorite things because it's always really uncomfortable and unpleasant. And it, you know, never know how someone's going to react. But it was like, okay. And then I thought about it and I was like, oh, but my other favorite one is anytime we do, like, my example was D.B. Cooper where it's like an age old mystery or like the Summerton.

Or I'm trying to think like you do a lot of these, like, or like H.H. Holmes, something like very. classic but like dark and mysterious. I don't know. And those kind of like age old like history travel channel, history channel style ones where you could just go down every rabbit hole and like find a new explanation or like the spy ones. I just love those ones because like there's so many random avenues you could go. And they add a little mistier. So that's that's where I landed. I mean as far as serial killers like the Israel Keys one is the one that effed me up the most. But I know I share that a lot. So, um, but yeah,

what about you, Emma, over half a millennia, it's worth of, that's not quite how that works. Century? A century? Five centuries. Oh, yeah. Half a millennia. Wow. Well, no, because it's 500 episodes, not 500 years.

But, you know, five. I'll take it. Whatever, I'll take it. I, you know, my favorite, I mean, obviously covering the Winchester Mystery House 19th trillion times, all 500 times, actually. I mean, the one being there was especially special, I would say, but that's a given. The one from the carriage house, yeah. Agreed.

Live from the carriage house. Live from the carriage house. I think. With the equipment, that was so fun. Any Zach Begans, especially roses, roses. Rose. I was literally falling asleep last night. And I started seeing all these roses in my head.

And then my brain went, roses, roses. And I went, no, no, we don't put. No, no, we don't need a soundtrack. We don't need a soundtrack. We don't need that. I was also thinking about this is such like a, time capsule, but during COVID our live shows, where we had like, girl, remember them, please. Oh, my God.

Like, our live shows from the couch. Sorry, I dissociated because you said a really threatening series of terms in one row. And like, unlike a sleeper agent, I became a fall asleep agent, which is where a sleeping agent, which is where you say three words and I go coma too. You just knock the fuck out. Yeah, I'm like, COVID, live shows, it just all sounded really traumatic. So our, no, remember the, Wait, live from our couch.

Wait, what was that? What did we do? I was very drunk. I was very drunk and very mentally, I mean, very like mentally unwell during COVID, which all of us were. But we have like, like a lot of people live streaming in to watch us like live report stories. Like it was like a big deal. No. We did them just virtually.

It was like, remember what was it called like Moment House or something or was it? Oh, your moment has. we tried to do one. I flew all the way to L.A. And then the technology didn't work. We did it at Spotify Studios. A lot of you might remember, well, some of you might remember this.

Because like we pitched it. We sold tickets. It was this whole thing. And then like the entire time, M was having health issues. Oh my God. I literally had to leave. I like,

I had to like leave. It'd be upside down like off camera. You had like your heart issues. And then meanwhile like Eva and I are having a fucking panic attack. And we're trying not to stress you out because you. have a heart condition. Even I are like trying to get something to work and then all of a sudden like the the help we were allegedly receiving from Moment House. No bad blood. Just saying at the time it was really rough just kind of vanished and we were all like so what do we do? And then there was just this

flash on the screen because this is what happens after the live stream with Moment House, which was like a virtual live stream thing. It just said on the screen, your moment has ended. And we all went Okay, I guess that's a clear enough fucking sign and we had to refund everyone and I felt terrible. But anyway, honestly, thank God if I was ever going to have like heart problems in the middle of a live show, that was the one because I was, I mean, talk about another memory is like anytime we were on stage and me thinking I was going to like need an ambulance. Yeah, I mean, there was a lot. So when you say those words, I'm like, I didn't need a moment. No, no, no, you were the one traumatized by that incident. I mean, I at least got to go back and just hang out in L.A. for a bit. But yeah. there was a lot there's a lot yeah but those were fun i mean not that one particularly but i gotta be honest the plunger for it and like like i'm trying to think of like all all the way back at the beginning but i'm not this is not meant to like like shade you at all it truly is one of my favorite memories

is when you fall asleep when we were recording oh my god i've noticed like if i just kind of accept that some of people's my closest closest confidants favorite memories of me are just things that I'm really being a dumbass. I've just got to like lean into that as like a form of like it was so good. It was I mean like you literally shouldn't write that like it just happened naturally. Like it was just so funny. And like the fact that it cuts to ads and then it cuts to good morning.

Yeah. It is. And it's the fact that I was like trying so like mass like trying so hard to perform this version of like I'm awake and laughing. And there was like this moment where you were like, why are you laughing? I didn't say anything. And I was like, because it was You tried really hard.

You were like, why are you laughing? I was like, because that was funny. And you were like, I didn't say anything. And I was like, oh, oh, oh. Christine, it was very, I loved it. It was a really good memory. And so it was the plunger for it. I mean, it was all the times in the,

especially in the beginning when we didn't. Just chaos. The bread. Know what we were doing. We were just trying to figure it out, you know, to prop up the live streams. We never talk about this. Remember when we had Rain Wilson on?

That was amazing. I mean, fever dream. Like really top tier experience. It's just there's so many. And I got my COVID shot that day. And I remember being like, what is this world we're living in, you know? I remember he was, he didn't say anything particularly critical, but he did notice that I've record from my bedroom.

And I don't, I still think about that where I'm like, should I have not been doing that? He went, where are you? And I went, my bedroom. And he went, you record there? I was like, I don't have a whole office. That's effing hilarious. Yeah. I mean, and now as someone who's not currently, but typically recording in their bed because it's just more comfortable, I'm like, oh, damn.

But yeah, that was quite a, I felt very raw and vulnerable during that experience. He talked about seaman, his semen. He, well, to be fair, you kind of started it. I encouraged it, the conversation. Neither of us didn't encourage it. So I'll give you that. Yeah. But yeah, there were a lot of fun times.

By the way, I do want to drink my drinks. I'm going to tell you what it is. I went to the Big Bee, the Big Bee, got me a drive-through mocha with oat milk and had therapy this morning. And my therapist gave me like a really, really lovely and sincere pep talk. And it was like, yeah, really needed. And it was very like authentically. And it's not something like she just kind of throws around, you know. Oh, that's lovely.

Yeah, like she's very supportive. But like today she was like, hey, I just want you to like really hear me when I say this. And I was like, oh, here we go. And then she said like some really assertively kind and just like made me take the compliment. And I was like, thank you. I needed that. I needed a little morale boost in this day and age, you know. So it was a very.

Very nice. Yeah, it was nice to leave therapy and feel like, you know, just like, yeah, I felt I felt good. And then I went to my big bee and got my little mocha. And now I'm here. Living the dream, 500. So that's why I drink. Why do you drink? I also drink because it's 500 just to, it's, I'm not trying to, you know, force memory lane where it's not, where it's not, you know, just happening organically.

But just the, you know, I just woke up thinking about like, oh, episode one and then what we looked like at episode 10 and episode 50 and 100. And I just, it was, it was just very sweet today. just very grateful to you, very grateful to the listeners. And because of that, I drink a milkshake at 10 a.m. Listen, if I were not sober. Yes. I'd be fucking having a ball. Okay. Well, I thought you might say that, Christine. And that's why for your story, I have another milkshake and I'll drink that in your honor. Oh, that's so nice. So I'm double fisting for the both of us today. I know that it's harmful to your whole composure as an adult person now in your body. So I do appreciate the sacrifice.

I'm not 24 anymore, you know what I'm saying? No, we should post that picture of us with that ice cream cake, like when we were just like low-knit. It was when we got 10,000 listens, 10,000 downloads. Oh, yeah. And there was like one of me in the hospital for Crohn's and you were like, you like brought the newspaper of us being mentioned. It feels like a weird museum wall where they have like a black, like a sepia-toned picture. I mean, I remember the first time we were with a network and we saw like our logo framed on

someone's wall that blew our minds. Oh, it felt outrageous. It felt like we were all punking ourselves and everyone. Yeah. It was amazing. I want to also take a moment to say that I'm so grateful for this and everything we've built. And it's, it's beautiful and wonderful. And it's been the most healing, wonderful, like surreal experience my life. And I think when we did the episode and it came out and the announcement about me leaving came out. There was like maybe a disconnect because, well, A, you've talked about this a lot of, like, we've known for a long time and so we've had a lot of time to process and maybe it didn't come off as like emotionally.

But B, like, yeah, I didn't want it to seem like I was like, eh, by, you know, I, um, yeah, it's, it's been a very bittersweet whole decision making process and all this. But yeah, it is, there is just so much, um, loving. and joy and like literally laughter and hilarious hilarity and things that will never go away. You know, so there's that. And I am, I am forever just so. I mean, think about like what the fuck else would we have been doing for the last 10 years? You know, like, imagine if we just were like, nah.

It's insane to think about. I'd probably still be at the prop house. I mean, yeah. I guess I would have like clawed my way into like a full, like a more full time long term position in Lickolodeon maybe or like And then like, I don't know, felt kind of. Yeah, it's weird. It's funny how when the what ifs come out, it's like, well, just wherever you last were off. Yeah, I know.

And it's like, probably that's not what would have happened. I probably wouldn't have gotten a job. Ended up like doing something completely different. I mean, I guarantee COVID would have probably set me straight back to Virginia. Like, yeah, valid point. We probably, and who knows we might have not even stayed in L.A. for another five. Whatever. Anyway, it doesn't matter.

But it's, it does matter. But it's not, you know, there's nothing we can. But it's beautiful. It's been a dream. Yeah. And I love it. I love it. I love it.

I just feel like we did such an awesome thing and we've done, we're continuing to do such an awesome thing. And, um, yeah, I'm very proud of us. Really. 500 episodes is not a fucking small feat, dude.

I feel, I swear, I feel like at some point when we kind of felt like, oh, maybe this is going to be something. I feel like we said the phrase like at episode 500. We're like, oh,

that's like a decade from now. We would laugh and laugh. Yeah. Yeah. We were also bad at math back then too. Like, I was like, I was like,

you idiot. That's half a lot. millennia. That's in 500 years. Like that's how dumb. That's and you were like, oh, you're right. And that's how dumb we were. Yeah. We were behaving that way. We were so dumb. We actually, how dumb were we? We got a like a phone number before we even knew the name of the podcast. We just bought a phone number for some reason and thought. We didn't know what we would do. So this will be important. Yeah, we did all of it. We thought this will be an extra $10, but it's worth it for the phone number. Absolutely. So I'm glad I hope nobody probably ever called us. But I'm sure.

Over these nine, ten years, there's maybe one spam call in that mailbox. Someone must have called it at some point, right? I would think so. Anyway, so all that's say, I love the little 500s. I love the, I love the little memory lane talk. I have been talking to people a lot more about like, just like what the fun topics have been and stuff like that. Well, I have one for you today. and at some point I'm going to have to run off and get my extension cord because my

Oh yeah, no, no worries. The nature of not sitting in my nook means I don't have a charger, an outlet near me. Accessible, yeah, gotcha. By the way, and I was. I can't wait for my fucking story for you today because search and I kind of did like a team effort and it's just, it's just kick ass. I can't wait. Well, I'm glad to hear that.

I was, mine was oddly, I don't know what the right word is. It's going to be awesome. Don't even second-guess it for a minute. No, no, no, I'm not second-guess. I'm saying there's some sort of like, I don't know what, I literally don't know what the right word is, so I don't want to say the wrong one. But what's the, is it synchronous, synchronicity or whatever the phrases? Because a while ago, weeks ago, I posted like, by the way, I'm sitting in a shorter chair so now I can, like, rest my arm on the table and it's so cute. It's kind of cute. It's giving like you're, like, on the phone with, like, a high school friend, you know, and just like gabbing. Yeah. Usually I'm like fee, fifo fum hunching over. So this is like really nice. And I'm like all the way in the back like yelling.

Yeah. Right at top, we would like to thank embarkvett.com for supporting him. That's where we drink. If you go to embark vet.com, you can save $10 on the breed and health test and get free shipping with promo code drink. Obviously, I've talked before that I was able to figure out that Hank is mainly Rottweiler and Bernie's Mountain. He's also majorly Cocker Spaniel.

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promo code drink. That's promo code drink to save $10 today. We all know I like my, my Rasm powdered water, my little powder for my drinkies. But that's the only flavor of that brand that I like. And I would, I was really perusing for a variety. I wanted a variety. It could be like you were looking for a cure maybe for yourself and the way that you wanted maybe to cure your thirst.

No, that's interesting that you say something like that. Because I, I really try to only drink water in the house, but I get really bored very easily of it tasting like nothing. So, luckily, cure came in. Yeah, and fix it for us. Came in from Cure. I'm currently obsessed with their peach tea flavor. That's very nice.

The peach tea sounds so good. I need to try that. They have a berry pomegranate, I think. That's not the one that I, that's currently in my pantry. Also delicioso. They have a raspberry. They have strawberry kiwi. Once they have Rasm, I'm officially just going to move right over.

You're just like fully moved in. Yeah, well, what I like to is like, they're not too sweet. They're not too salty. They taste like actual fruit without the like artificially flavor. which I know people kind of struggle with. And like has a ton of flavors, which is also like people like you and I who get bored very easily with our beverage choices and need constant stimulation on that front. Yeah, they really make it work for us and get us hydrated at the same time. Here's the electrolyte mix that I've started reaching for daily and with clean ingredients and nothing artificial.

It's become easy to stay hydrated. Find it on Amazon or save 20% at curehydration.com with code drink. Okay, so the reason that this is a little eerie for me is, A couple weeks ago, I posted asking people like, what do you think episode 500 is going to be? And I did have different plans. I ended up reading through people stuff. And I was like, oh, that's not a bad idea. I should do that.

I should do that. And someone suggested the obvious of like, you can't not do a Zach Bagan's episode. And so I was like, okay, fine, I'll do that. And I ended up find, I was just on looking at Ghost Avengers episodes. I ended up finding one called Pioneer Saloon. now hang on. I was going to do that and I was doing my notes and I was like this just doesn't feel like I'm like something I'm supposed to be doing not to be like oh woo-woo but I was like this doesn't

spark it's not it's not giving me I don't feel the sparkle. It doesn't feel aligned right now for this. Not right now. Not right now. Maybe one day but not right now. And so I was like, man, I'm just going to like toss these notes. I had been doing these notes for a while and I was like I'm just going to scrap them and start over.

And I googled like funniest Zach. big in these moments or whatever. And Reddit, of course, led me to what I am going to cover. And the reason that it's synchronous, whatever, that word is because the Pioneer Saloon is like oddly tied to this episode and gets an insane amount of mentions in this episode. Is that not so weird? So it like brought you back to that. So next week I will be covering the Pioneer Saloon on principle.

Oh, wow. Wow. So it was like, you got to actually do. this, but yeah, we can hold for a week. Oh, I love that. Thank God the universe was like, don't scrap the notes because you're just going to cover them a week later. I was going to say, you did say you toss the notes. I don't know what that means on the modern parlons. It means I pressed the X. I pressed the red clothes button. And it said, we auto save this. Don't worry. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Good, good, good. So next week will be the Pioneer Sulin.

This week, though, is the Wolf Creek Inn. What's that? Well, it's in Wolf Creek, Oregon, don't you know. Don't you know. Not that Oregon's a place that says that. But this is Oregon's, at the very least, it's official that it's Oregon's oldest continuously running in. However,

Zach said it's the oldest in the whole Pacific Northwest. He would. He would say that. Because I always say it. It is on the National Register of Historic Service York Places. And it was originally called the Wolf Creek Tavern, not an inn. But fun fact, the name Wolf isn't it at all? Because this

area, it used to be covered with wolves. And when they opened as a tavern, I don't know why they switched from into tavern. It was all a sudden, they, it still feeds people, still lodges people, did back then as well. So I don't know semantics. So when people were staying overnight there, there were so many wolves in the area that this building that did not have indoor plumbing and like there was an outhouse that you could use, so many wolves that they were like, don't even use the outhouse. They would just give them like, uh, like chamber pots just to hold themselves over. Don't even risk it.

Don't even risk it. They're like going to the outhouse will kill you actually because there's so many wolves at night. Oh my God. What? And I don't know if it's like if before this building was here, this place was covered in wolves. But I think it's because the tavern open and this was like the only place that was serving a hot, great smelling food. There's food scraps and like animals. Yeah, exactly. And people. It's like opening a restaurant on a campsite and now there's bears every. trash and like yeah exactly yeah exactly so um anyway fun fact on the name that's why it's called

i love how i'm like we'll get ants and they're like we'll get wolves i'm like oh so slightly there will be blood yeah there will be wolves oh oh i have best stick to will be ants that's enough for me i said it was the oldest continuously run in in at least organ and it started in 1883 still running wow sidebar does this say zero zero five to you? No. Okay. Because it's flipped on my end that I'm like, am I a full fuzzucking idiot? I promise you I would have made some very hilarious slash rude commentary if it said 0.05.

Perfect. Because I really just thought for a second, what an idiot. Okay. So 1883, built by Henry Smith, and it's a stop for travelers along the way. and by the way, I mean the Applegate Trail. Okay. Not the Oregon Trail, weirdly. Shocking, right? Hmm.

We're in Oregon. I think that's why, because the Oregon Trail was supposed to get you there. Maybe that came, no, that would have come before. The Oregon Trail definitely existed by then, right? Well, don't ask me that. Someone's going to yell at me. Maybe they're the same thing. I mean, the floppy disk came out in 1992, so it must have been around then.

That's interesting. 92 really? No, I made that up. Okay. I have no idea. Also, the video game came out in 1971, so I'm like, fucking so wrong. Yeah, let's see. That was in the year. Yeah, pretty close, not 1830s.

Okay. So, yeah, it definitely existed. Okay, all right. I guess there isn't just one trail per state. Like, I guess I'm just like being silly, but. I know, but I sort of thought it was a tongue-in-cheek type joke. Like, oh, not the Oregon Trail. I'm with you.

Well, so the travelers along Applegate Trail, they would, apparently it was a 16-day trek to get on this trail to get from San Francisco to Portland. Okay. And the Wolf Creek Inn was like the only stop in between them. No wonder it is wolves. Wolves and like, but also what a fucking business plan of like, well, if you want food and a But how is nobody else just popping up right next door? I guess nobody just, I think maybe it was just like early.

Like there was just like people hadn't gotten there yet. A given, yeah, to have that one spot. Um, but so originally it was called the six bit house because, uh, Henry Smith originally charged people 75 cents or six bits. Oh, okay. And 75 cents and was in the 1880s. So I actually did not do the math this time. Sorry to know what that means.

But, um, fun fact for Cowboys who came in who, who I, Cowboys and had to keep this in for you. Yep. Even though it was 75 cents to stay there for the night, if there were some like just really tired cowboys who are passing through and they're like, I just need to sleep, I don't need like a full room or a shower or a food. I just want to sleep here. He would actually just charge them 10 cents.

However, they had to go sleep basically standing up in the attic rafters. Whoa. I've heard about like sleeping out with your horse, but I've not heard of sleeping upright in an attic rafter like fucking nosferatu well do you know where the phrase hangover comes from no it's when people were drunk and the cheapest option for them to find a place to sleep was there was literally just like they would just hang themselves over a pole while they were drunk and we sleep it off they would just throw their body over a hole over a pole and just pardon me what they'd hang over it until how have i never learned this on this and on this of all podcast too we've never

discussed this before. It's amazing. I know. I think it was like like one cent or two cents for the pole because otherwise you had to like sit in like the dirty gross like the ground where there was like horse poop everywhere. Wow. So you get a nice stick to lean on or pull to lean on. Yeah. So your ribs hurt later. Yeah. But at least you're clean. Ish. Ish. But it was like the cheapest option besides. Until you vomit on your shoes over that bar. And then. Man, that's that's wild. I had never, I've never heard that before. I'm. Mm-hmm. Fantastic. So these guys, for 10 cents, they could be inside, but they had to be in the rafters.

And I don't know if there was a pole for them to hangover. You can be inside, but you've got to climb into the roof rafters. What the fuck kind of nonsense? But you have to be at the top story. You've got to be a little bat. Here's a situation. They were in the attic rafters, but that did not mean that the attic had a floor. So you're a fucking bat?

So what they would do, I think, because it sounds to me that there were either just some loose boards everywhere, kind of above like the ceiling, like above the ceiling of the top floor. Or it sounds like there was no floor at all and it was just ledges, like just edges around the building. Just like maybe some beams or something, maybe. Yeah. Yeah. So their option was to pretty much just lean against the wall and hope they didn't fall forward. And so one of the things they would do is they would dig the spurs. of their boots into the wood and hope it kind of held them while they leaned back on the wall.

Wow. And slept and you just hope you don't fucking fall. But to this day, you can still see the marks from people digging their spurs into the wood to hold them up. Wow. That's awesome. And up into this moment, I was always like, what the fuck is a spur even for? And I did not think that, but now I have a reason to find the musical. It's for to spur your horse on.

But yes, also, I guess for. Wow. Okay. So I told you the hangover thing. We're learning so much today. Yeah, they're further back of your boots to get the horse to get. Oh, little knives to stab your friends. Yeah, of course.

Yeah. Anyway, that is, people can still see the spur marks. That's really cool. If you happen to climb into the attic rafters of a 100-year-old haunted house. I happen to will. So when it first opened, like I said, this was one of the only stops between San Francisco and Portland, which was a 16-day hike. the time. Later, Henry Smith, who built this place, he expanded it from being the six-bit house. He either expanded the building that was already there or he reopened it across the street,

but now it was calling it a first-class hotel. And there were 16 rooms for people. There were two parlors, one for a man, one for women. They had a dining room. And by the 1930s, this was like the popular spot to be. So the first like 50 years was just to like give you a place to say. Now by the 1930s. Literally that's it. Yeah. People are retreating there because it's surrounded by woods and a river and it's very pro nature. Pro nature. So, but they're not still in the ceiling, right? I don't think so anymore. Can you imagine if you're like, we have a first class hotel,

now go sleep in the ceiling? Did you bring your spurs? Well, you know what's so funny? I didn't even mention this part earlier. Like one of the other things that would happen. If you fell, like you weren't just falling, like you were falling into people's guest rooms. Like, so imagine being a guest. So you don't, okay, but you better get a discount for being down there too because like that's. Imagine you actually pay the full price to have a guest room and now you have to wonder like

is someone going to just fall in? I would not be paying full price. I mean, I probably would be. But like, man, that's not fair. Uh-uh. Wow, I forgot how good a milkshake can be. Oh, man. I don't get them like that.

like I used to. Okay, so John Wayne used to go here. Robert Redford used to go here. Mary Pickford, Sinclair Lewis, Orson Wells, President Rutherford B. Hayes, who I always thought had the best name. And then most importantly, Clark Gable and his second wife, Carol Lombard. Oh. So this blew my mind when I first saw that note because they are also main characters in the story of the Pioneer Saloon.

And so I was like, what are the... And I had, I had yet to realize that there was going to be overlap because I hadn't watched ghost adventures yet. So I didn't know that there was. What the fuck is going on? So I'm just doing these notes. And the Pioneer Saloon is like not an organ, I don't think. It's in, um, it's in, it's in Vegas or it's in Nevada. What?

And this is an organ. And I remember seeing that and going, what are the odds? Two sets of notes tonight. And they were both talking about Clark Abel and Carol Lombard. Strange. It was very weird. And so I was like, anyway, keep it moving. And then it just kept happening.

And I'm like, what the fuck's going on? Yeah, they're synchronicity. It means you're on the right track. Well, I hope so. So I'll only know how these notes are by the end. You're nailing it. Keep in mind those two. I'm going to bring them up later.

Another big name here was an author named Jack London. Oh, yeah. I know about him. Okay. Perfect. So he summered here for a year while he wrote his book called Valley of the Moon. And I'm going to say all the names of the celebrities that I just mentioned. I'm going to say those were alleged because.

I saw on one plaque that apparently one of the owners was trying to draw on more guests and maybe exaggerated the amount of people that had come to visit. So it was like somebody's agent and he's like, actually it was. And Rutherford B. Hayes was here. Yeah. The president, well, yeah, you could call him that. Yeah, yeah. You could call him that.

So I will say Clark Gable and his second wife and Jacqueline were definitely here. Those are for sure. Um, another person that was said to frequent the inn in the 1860s was a stagecoach driver that I guess was popular then for his reputation, but then got even more popular in his death because this guy's name was Charlie, stagecoach driver 1860s. He was known to be a real tough guy and there's two quotes about him that I enjoyed. They said, quote, Charlie drove his team hard, spat his tobacco juice harder and cussed like Samuel Clemens.

Oh. And then the other quote is, he only. He only missed work after payday when he was too hung over to drive. Because he was hungover a literal. Hull over a pole. So already he was a rough and tumble. He was well known in the area, I guess. But when he died, this gets tricky, folks.

The mortician learned that Charlie was biologically female. Whoops a daisy. I don't know if that was something Charlie wanted anybody to know. And now over 100 years later, I'm fucking talking about it publicly. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um, so we don't know. And then no, there was no notes about this. This is just my own caveat here. We don't know if Charlie was trans. We don't know if Charlie was in disguise just to keep themselves safe in an 1860s world, not made for women. Um, the official story that I was seeing in like multiple sources was that she, yikes, was an orphan named Charlotte. So now we're just dead naming her too. Sorry everybody. Uh, who ran away to be a stagecoach driver. It's like, well, that's really vague. And how would any of us. know that. And also that like ran away. Yeah, that just is like the euphemism for nobody knows probably

something more complex and nuanced happen, but we're just going to say ran away. It's easier. Yeah. Like, like, how would we know that because we're only finding out any of this after Charlie's dead. Right? Exactly. Yeah. So we're just piecing things together. We know nothing about. So while passing as male, this is like, this is meant to be a fun fact, but I want to give another caveat. But while passing as mail, Charlie was able to register to vote in the 1860s and voted for Ulysses Grant, fun fact. And sources go on to say, this could possibly make Charlie the first woman to vote. And it's like, oh. Like, first of all, no, because I'm sure there have been plenty of times that that has happened.

So let's not even go there. It's a little weird of a thing to be like, let's harp on this again when it's like not a verifiable thing that you can, like, yeah, no. It's like just because now you're saying that Charlie is a girl, but in a cool way with a cool fact, you're still maybe outing someone who clearly didn't want to be known as anything other than Charlie. It's like, why do we keep talking about that, you know? Like why? Yeah. Not you and I. I mean, like, why is that, why does that keep meaning having to be something for.

Yeah. And also like, I guarantee you in the 1860s, Charlie was, let's assume, let's assume it was a gender identity thing. Charlie was not the first trans person. 1860 was not the year that trans. trans men started existing. Certainly. I'm pretty sure that there were others, quote, in disguise or passing as male who also registered.

This is just one of the ones that you were able to find, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that, like, had some sort of story to it that you could kind of create a narrative around. Yeah. Exactly.

So a lot of people like to say, like, oh, we're haunted. For, thank God, no one's saying, like, we're haunted by one of them transgender. Yeah. But, you know, they're haunted by a stagecoach who was actually a good. Girl, crazy. So that's where we stand. And also a lot of sources were also saying that she had one eye. He had one eye.

So I don't even know what that means. They kept saying one-eyed stage coach. And I'm like, is that a descriptor? Right. What? It's all very odd. I have like no, yeah, I have no sort of context, like, no contextual, like, I bring nothing to the table to illuminate any of this. I literally brought something to the table and still feel like I brought nothing.

I thought maybe I could help with nothing. I've got nothing. Just like if we were just going to like make this the way Charlie maybe wanted it to be made. Charlie was a stagecoach driver. The end. The end. And yes, he also voted for Grant. Sick.

Oh, sick. I guess. Tight. So I just wanted to mention that because Charlie gets mentioned later as a ghost. Got it. Got it, got it. Charlie is such a nice Like especially nowadays

Like gender neutral name Like that's that's great Love that Yeah also Charlie like could have just been like A Masked lesbian and like everyone's not just pointing fingers Or like Charlie could have been anything Or just like intersex or there could have literally been just like Or could have just been fighting the system

Wait till you see though What my topic is because it could have just been a fucking autopsy mistake I'm just gonna say that You never know Well I hope Charlie wherever you are I hope you're having a good time I hope you're just laughing up. Yeah, right. I hope you're laughing at all this and not feeling like, what is going on?

Charlie's like, I'll never know rest. My legacy, right? I know it keeps happening. These bozos. So in 1925, more people started coming through because the Pacific Coast Highway was built out. And so that actually led to more people coming. So that led to even more improvements to the end to keep it running. Fun fact, one of the improvements was a sign out front that still exists today. So it's as of this year. It's over 100 years old. That sign alone, even though the building is several more decades older than that. 50 years later, the building needed very expensive renovation. So literally the state of Oregon bought the inn and started redoing it. And today the inn still offers lodging and food, including, it's mainly comfort food, but they have a Jack London scramble.

Oh, ooh la la. In case you're interested in that. And the rooms now have private bathrooms, thank God. It is pet friendly. But very similar to way, I don't remember what it was called, but it was the one in Tucson, Arizona we stayed at where like they intentionally have kept it looking as it did when it was opened. So it was, you know what I'm talking about? C. Start to the C.

What? Start to the C. No. Cortez? No. I always say that and it usually means there's a C in the word. I've learned when I say that it usually means there's a C in the word. But I don't know.

I don't know off the top of my head. Why am I not remembering it doesn't? I don't know. But there's a hotel in Tucson that we've discussed before. Congress, Congress, Congress Hotel. A sea was right. Okay. Good for me.

But basically this building looks as it did in the late 1800s, early 1900s. So it's very small. There's no like electronics in there. It's meant for you to essentially be experiencing living history while you're staying there. And some of the rooms have now been discontinued for reservations because they wanted to like fully deck it out to look almost like a museum as it did at that time. Wow. So can you go like see them or is it like you just can't stay in them? I think you can I think you can go in and like stand there and like see it.

Like look around. Oh, that's cool. But can't stay there. And one of them is the room that Jack London would summer in. Got it. The last thing I'll say before I get to the ghost is that October is their biggest month. Obviously they know that they're incredibly haunted. They go full out with the decorations.

They have guided spooky lantern tours. They have a kid-friendly haunted house attraction. And they of course have ghosts. So let's talk about that. So thank you for bearing with me through all of that. No, I love it. Okay. So Jack London is one of their ghosts.

He's heard talking in his room, making noises, shuffling around in there. He's also seen standing in his old room. And people often feel that someone is staring at them from that room, whether they're passing by or whatever that is. They just feel like there's an energy from it. And they hear odd noises in there. so that's Jack's room. Clark Gable's room.

People see a woman in there. They hear her singing. A lot of people, it's like the theories are endless with her. She could be a staff member or a guest or related to one of the owners or one of Clark Gables' mistresses because apparently he was just a big old cheater. No. So it could have been anything. People also see this woman walking around on the main floor and apparently she's very active during investigations. some of these fuck-ass sources were like obviously that's Charlie and I'm like um I'm pretty sure

Charlie who spent their entire life passing and or identifying as male is not appearing as a woman doing government business like voting and stuff without a question yeah so what okay clearly like sure like to register to vote don't you have to like to say what you're well I guess did you have to back then if woman couldn't also vote it's just assumed I mean I think you could I don't know I think it was let's say a little more lax you could kind of fudge your budge your way through. I think you could have just had a gruff voicing on, look at me. Do I look like I need to tell you?

You know, something like that. Let me put me down for Ulysses. Yeah. Big U.G. You know what I'm saying? Put the knee down for the big you. Okay, so that's the woman who I guarantee you is not Charlie. Right.

Right. Others have seen an older man. They say he's an older gentleman, which is very nice. Love a gentleman as a ghost. he apparently is walking through the halls sometimes he accidentally brushes past people but people will feel him brush past them doesn't feel very gentlemanly to me that's true like slow down feels a little bit like can you take some space not man spread like actually you're pissing me off like actually this is my space like who called you a gentleman another man okay moving on it was it you

there's uh there's also apparently this is this needs a lot more coverage and yet nobody had anything to say about it. There's a humanoid vampire creature in the woods outside. Good. As you would have, I hope. Good, check. Next. Fangs and blood all around its mouth.

Oh. Love that. And one theory is that other spirits here are protecting the property from this creature from getting in, hence that plus the fangs and the blood makes it like a vampire, like it can't come in. Imagine dying and being like, who, wow, what a hard life I live. lived and now I get to like experience peace and it's like me and my sharp teeth finally get to sleep no not that guy like the people in the hotel who die and are like oh feel and finally a peace and then the other ghosts are like actually you're you have to stay here and join our army

defending this property from that fucking werewolf up wait a minute I didn't sign up for this like that's not fair that they have to fucking protect the property from a fucking werewolf truly if someone told me I'm I'm dead and five minutes later someone says oh great we needed another person on our team. Now you're going to do endless unpaid physical labor. Yeah. At the risk of your death, oh wait, you're a ghost. So you're just going to perpetually be threatened for the rest of your existence.

No. I'm not in. I'm not putting on that name tag. Fuck you. I'm actually going to go hang out with the fucking bloody fang man outside. Wait, yeah. He seems like I have, he gives me freedom. He's outside.

Bye. Like, he's spending the rest of his eternal torment. out in nature. I think he's okay. And then a minute later, you hear, help! And then they're like, told, we're trying to tell them.

Well, so this vampire guy, they, it gets worse because, and by worse, I mean, just like how Charlie had a bad ending here. So, some people say, like, oh, the spirits are protecting the house from keeping that guy from getting in.

Other people say that he actually can get in. Other people say, oh, it's not a vampire at all. It's a person with, like, mental health issues who just wants to look scary so everyone will leave him alone. So he covers his face with blood and lives in the woods. Oh. Huh? Huh? Who fucking asked you? Who wrote that? Who wrote that? Who wrote that? And delete it? Who wrote it? And then can you unwrite it real quick? Can you write? I don't want to see that anymore.

Because like, there's no evidence of that. Are you just throwing out things here? Yeah. Yes. The answer is yes. So someone's suffering and now we're just also going to like make fun of the fact that they're, okay, whatever. And then there's another rumor separately that says that this vampire beast is just a spirit, however, not threatening at all. So it either goes from scary monster to not scary ghosts to just a person to. Anyway. In general. Is there any theory that this is not a real entity at all? I mean, that's my theory.

Oh, okay. Okay. So it's not like, oh, we've all seen this person or whatever. It's like someone who has a mental illness. It's just like, oh, it's a legend more. Certainly. That's what makes it more frustrating that I'm like, we didn't have to bring people into this at all.

Oh, okay. So there's not actually, okay. Then yeah, that's cool, cool, awesome. Got it. I'm assuming people have thought they've seen something, but I don't know why. Right. I don't know.

Truly, again, this is another. That sounds like the fucking cropsy or any of these stories where, whatever, where it's like, oh, the man in the woods who escaped from the insane asylum, you know, this is like that classic trope. So I'm not totally surprised. I'm with you. because I'm like, I mean, people are going to make up stuff, but I'm just like, can we just stick to like the ghosts or something? Of course not.

That would be ridiculous. Well, in general, people hear voices, footsteps. They feel a lot of cold spots. There's a lot of flickering lights. Doors open and closed. People see shadow figures. People feel themselves getting watched. People experience crazy prickling skin feelings.

Nice. People wake up to odd, vivid dreams. People will smell perfumes in some areas. they'll smell really bad smells in other areas. They'll hear the piano playing itself downstairs. They'll hear the doors slam on their own. People hear someone shuffling through their room in the middle of the night. And then for the rest of the night, feel like someone is watching them from the corner of the room.

Horrifying. People will hear, I bet someone has had both those things happen where you wake up from a bad dream and then you hear shuffling. And then you just feel someone staring at you. Because you're like, oh, few, it was a dream. And then, yeah. Oh, no, no, no. Horror movie, horror movie. people also hear kids playing with a ball in empty rooms no people will find objects missing and then

reappearing in new places mediums have come through that said that the spirits are active and paranormal investigators have gotten evpies of people singing chatter laughter and then phrases like good morning conversation and don't leave that's my cue to go actually it's opposite day and i'll be leaving start the car now. Other EVPs seem to be even more directly intelligent, including when a paranormal investigator asked, am I at the Wolf Creek Inn? And the EVP right away said, yes, you are. Wow.

That I love one of like an immediate EVP, yeah. I love them. Furniture will rearrange itself when you leave the room, which is giving poltergeist. Totally. Items will fly off the shelves onto the ground, especially this one baking pan in the kitchen that I guess just flies for the kitchen all the time. Fuck this baking pan. Yeah.

I feel like it's just the condensed energy of someone who like burnt themselves on the pan. And it flings. Wait, that's so interesting. I know you just kind of said it, but like that's such an interesting point. Like that like panic like override of your reptilian brain like just toss the pan. I feel like if you ever translate to the afterlife. If you ever, if you ever saw the baking pan flying, I guarantee you there would be an EVP of someone screaming like,

Motherfucker. Oh, 100%. The clanging, like the whole, and everyone jumping. Like, there would have been a whole commotion. You're right. Oh, I love that theory. Good one. Thank you.

I still got it. We solved it. People feel something touching them, brushing up against them, like I mentioned earlier. And the worst one, confirmed by the owner of the building, is that at night people say what, that when they're in bed, they feel someone playing with their toes. So I'm just going to stay. step aside now and throw up.

I'm going to step aside and put big socks on and then big shoes on and then I'm going to run into my car. Steel-toed boots. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

If you want a wild time, apparently room eight is the most haunted. And the owner, uh, his name's Andrew, he felt something when he was in that room literally jump on top of him and he like started like trying to fight it, which is. Oh. I mean, what else are you going to do? I mean, yeah. I would do the same. It's funny because I wasn't there.

It's funny because it wasn't me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, like, if someone jumped on me in the middle of the night in a haunted-ass room, I'm losing my mind. But even if it's not in a haunted-ass room, in any ass room if a person jumped on me in the middle of the night. What the fuck? Hank, are you listening? Uh-huh.

He's not a person. Shortly after this happened to him, a medium came to the inn and said, something happened to you in room eight. Well, okay. You don't need to, like, air my dirty laundry. And honestly, there's only, like, nine rooms there. So I guess she could have just luck of a draw pick the right. I don't know. She seemed to really be like something happened to you there. And he was like, I feel like that's pretty on the nose. It'd be funny if she was like, it was me. I jumped on you.

Oh, yeah. Do you remember when we hung out the other day in roommate? Do I look familiar? Remember when you punched me? I deserve that. Do you see this black guy? Oops. My bad. I thought it would be a fun prank. So he's also, this is Andrew Sill, he's heard people in the hallway when totally alone in the building. At one time in the kitchen, he saw something that he described as quote, a scene straight out of Ghostbusters. This is the rest of the quote. He saw lids popping off of containers sailing across the room and spatulas moving by themselves.

Oh shit. Someone's cooking up a storm. Yeah. Wow. When asked about like if guests have experiences here, he is quoted saying, I wouldn't say everyone, but just about everyone. Wow. And then he said if you're there long enough, something is just bound to happen to you.

love a place like that where it's like, oh, it's just inevitable. Keep in mind most reports, and I've told you this already, but keep in mind that most reports so far have said that although this place is incredibly active, nothing here is malicious or dangerous. Wow. Enter Zach Began's team. Here we go. So immediately, like one of the first sentences out of his episode on the Wolf Creek in,

Zach Began says, of course, immediately because he heard vampire beast and glommed on. Yep. he talks about the vampire beast he says it influences people to be extremely violent follows people back to their room and attacks them that seems correct that seems like information he got straight from the source which is his own imagination like and he's saying this about the quote beast that is staying away from everyone and that like is not allowed at the property and is like not invited inside so i don't know he's just on a hammock by the river and it's like god people just love to hate me, don't they?

Man, it must be like, man, he, yeah, wow. So in this same conversation, Zach's team then claims that they've done research on the woods and this vampire beast. And they found info. They found info on, say it with me, multiple murders and body parts in the woods. I thought you were going to say on Reddit.

And then I was just like, they found information on Reddit. But so you're saying they found information on multiple, allegedly, multiple body parts? and body parts in the woods. So they're saying this obviously must, the vampire is responsible for these things. Oh, okay. So I like the use of multiple. That's good. Yeah. He said that.

Yeah, I know. That feels correct from him. And then by the way, it's never discussed again. And certainly not by anyone he interviewed, which means you know he asked them about it. And none of them were willing to play his little games. Never. Usually never. He, I did, I decided, I was like,

oh, well, if you were able to find that information, I'm certainly going to go look it up. So what I found was not multiple murders and body parts in the woods, by the way. I found the name Ivan Milat, who was the backpacker murderer. I don't know if you've heard about him. Oh, yes. Have you covered him? Yes, Ivan Malat.

Yes, a long time ago. That's a dark one, I think. So the reason that he came out, or, well, he didn't come out. The reason he got brought up is because he killed people in woods in Australia and his murders inspired a horror movie called Wolf Creek. And they happen to be at the Wolf Creek Inn. So I'm wondering if Zach's team just- Oh my God.

Yeah. Like, associated all, like, conflated all that together with like, murders associated with Wolf Creek, and there's a movie, a horror movie called Wolf Creek where people die.

And they're inspired by a real murderer. No doubt. No doubt. They were like, see, dead bodies. Oh, my God. Okay. So, by the way,

it was episode 241, time travel art and cubed wombat poop. where we're hiding flasks in Nancy Reagan's memoir. Oh, I love when we did that. Yeah, I love doing that. In terms of Christine who gives a gruesome tale of Ivan Malat in the backpack murders. Yeah, wow. You know, 241 was almost exactly halfway from this episode.

Whoa. Wow. So I'm guessing that's what happened with the Ghost Adventures research team. I'm guessing. Like, using a bare amount of media literacy, see, I could kind of agree just from afar. I think you made a very, very astute assessment of the situation. Thank you.

I don't have any counter argument. Well, good to know. So then after talking about all this, they then, two for two with Zach Bagan's, he then talks about how when the inn was built, an indigenous person was hanged on the property. So you could just use your imagination for what came from that. or what they were implying, what they were implying with that.

And maybe what visual they use to, sometimes they do a nice cut scene to reenact, which is always nice. Yeah. You're on it, Christine. So luckily, they never talk about that again, but it's mentioned. So there you go. They do interviews with the staff now, and one heard a, one woman who worked there, or she was the daughter of the owners, she heard a little girl say,

hi, really enthusiastically behind her when she was alone in a room. Whoa. So she hears the little girl go, hi. She even shows a picture of this little girl that they think they got on camera. Oh, cool. It's not bad, but it's not like, it doesn't blow my mind either. It could be. But to hear the voice and then get something that's sort of, you know what I mean?

Your, I confused you. They, um. Oh, oh, oh. Sorry, I just put the two things together because we're talking about the girl right now. Oh, it wasn't the same instant. It wasn't at the same moment. Oh, okay, okay, okay. She separately, she separately found, had got a picture of this girl that she had heard say hi to her.

Okay. So, which is my fault. I said that in a way. No, but still, but that's the same person, right? Like the same person. Same person. But that's so cool. Like, oh, she heard her and then like got visual, uh, sort of visual evidence.

I don't know. You're a homie. Yes. No, I mean, that's what I thought you meant. Yeah. Well, so what I want you to pay most attention to coming up is the fact that this little girl said hi to her in a very, very enthusiastic. Wait, like the girl, like the interviewee, or she, you know, replicates it.

And it sounds like a little girl very excited. This is, I just want to say like, this reminds me of when I heard a little girl in my house. And it was like, I know exactly the tone because it was like, daddy. And it was like so happy. Yes. And it was like, yeah. It's a real shame you brought that memory into this because now I have to ruin it for you. Zach's response to the enthusiasm of this girl.

This is a quote. I wrote it down. Here we go. Here we go. That's what a little girl would want to do. A little girl would want you to be excited. A little girl would want you to open your arms up and come play with the little girl and offer her some candy. Hello?

Zachary, go to prison right now. Okay. Ring, ring. Dispatch. Yeah. Remember how I told you someday I'd be calling about this? it's go time. Yeah.

Code read. So, okay. Code Ed Hardy. You know what it means. Yeah, Operation Ed Hardy. Operation Ed Hardy is in full Seabhead mode. So here's the thing. I'm going to have to defend Zach.

I think the production gave him a really awkward instruction to like, you have to segue into this other interview you've heard about. Like that's what you want you to think. Yeah. Well, because like obviously they should, the editors should have put scenes differently or they should have at least helped Zach out with the segue, the Sagu that he was trying to do here. I mean, maybe they did and he said, actually, I have a better way, which sometimes I do think happen.

Maybe. I do think that does happen. Basically what was what was trying to happen was that the next scene was going to be him interviewing another person who hadn't experienced with this little girl and candy. So it, but the way that it got crazy. Oh. When you first hear that, you go, hmm, Zach? What are you talking about?

I'm calling the police real quick. But he clearly was trying to like think in advance of how they would transition into the other, the next interview. God. It was like an awkward introduction to the next. He was like in real time trying to foresee the editing. And was like, we will be inserting that candy interview after this one. so let me try to make this work. I mean, remember the scene where he went to the candy thing and he got so fucking weird.

Like he has a weird thing. I talked about his butt. And he talked about how much, like how little sugar he eats. Like he clearly has a fixation about candy. So I think that might be part of it. Well, hold on to your butt because what's about to happen is this interview about candy. Good. And remember, the only way I stumbled upon this topic was because Reddit said,

I said, what are some funny Zach moments? And everyone said, you have to go watch this episode because the interview he does about candy. So we've, now we're here. I can't wait. I can't wait. I can't believe this is happening right now. Okay, go ahead. So he is, here's the thing. Clearly, him and this man, who happens to be the husband of the last school we were just talking about, who saw the girl who said hi.

They're married in real life. this guy has clearly been speaking to Zach for a while and all of that got edited out because of course Zach's first question immediately no introduction to anything that we know about this man Zach immediately says the phrase

how many jolly ranchers were you taken down a day it's like the seamless transitions the leading into things was not on the docket for this episode. What in the, what in the goddamn, you just hear him say, let me finish that last quote for you, everybody. He says, yeah, make it seamless for us. Make it seamless how he did this

beautifully. So transition seamless. I'm going to do both, both of his quotes. And I want you know that very little happened in between. Great. That's what a little girl would want to do. A little girl would want you to be excited. A little girl would want you to open your arms up and come play with the little girl and offer her some candy, how many Jolly Ranchers were you taking down a day? I mean, really, if I didn't know better, I would think this was a Chris Hansen excerpt. Like, it is challenging at best.

I think there's maybe a lead-in sentence, one lead in sentence in between those two sentences, where it's like, because your husband had a thing with candy happened to him, right? And then we go rain to this. So how many jolly? And keep in mind. What?

You can, first of all, That's a fucking rude-ass thing to say to somebody. But that's what I'm saying. I swear to God, I know they must have been talking about Jolly Ranchers for a while. There's nobody his first straight out the pack question was how many Jolly Ranchers were you taking out of day? Jolly Rangers hadn't even been mentioned yet in this interview. So like clearly this had been discussed.

Unless they did some insane research a la let's see that fictional movie that sounds a little bit like the place we're at and then like conflate the two. You know, maybe they did some research and found out that Jolly Ranchers were invented nearby. I don't know. Well, the reason that they were talking about Jolly Rangers is because I guess this guy has a Jolly Rancher problem, which had clearly been addressed to him before this conversation for him to even ask that question. Okay, but so M, maybe he like benefit of the doubt here for Zachary, I don't do this often,

but maybe this guy was like the first thing I got to tell you is I love a Jolly Ranger. Like maybe he's like before we get. Two things about me. my name is Ted and I fucking love a Jolly Rancher. And I fuck with Jolly Ranchers day in, day out. End of interview. Maybe that was it because Zach says how many were you taken down, which is a weird way to put it. Weird way.

And the guy, I'm not kidding. Kind of have to be on Zach's side here. The guy says easily over a hundred a day. Quote, one right after the other. One right after the other was this man's phrasing when asked the Jolly Rancher question. The amount of like gum gums in those candies and things that are just going to kind of line you up on the inside, I don't. Forget that. I'm thinking about like how jagged like glass are your teeth. Yeah, I guess those things. You're not sucking on a hundred a day. Those are going to pull your teeth out. You're biting.

Those are going to rip your, though, because those stick into those molars. Oh, word. You're eating them like Eminems or something. Like you're not like if I were to suck like it's, it's very, it's very. very much like Mr. Able, how many licks does it take? Like, if I were to start my day, put a jolly wrench in my mouth, and consecutively just suck on them, I certainly wouldn't get through a hundred. You're gnashing at him. You're either gnashen at him. Well, he said one after the other. I was going to say, or five at a time, but you said one after the other. So he's either swallowing them whole, sickening, chewing them down, sickening. Now, keep in mind, as you mentioned earlier, so love that you did this. You fucking mentioned

his weird aversion to sugar. Zach's aversion to sugar. And now a man is telling him that he's having easily a hundred jolly ranges a day. And Zach was probably like spinning out about this information. He probably short-circuited a little bit.

His pupils dilated. I wish you could see. That man was bewildered. I mean the amount of like where he was like I didn't know you're allowed to do that. You know? Very next sentence out of his mouth, 100 pieces equals 1.3 pounds of Jolly Ranchers per day.

Don't. Okay. First of all, thank you. Fucking like Google AI. What do you want? That's not helpful to anybody. I mean, truly, you're right. You're right. Think about like the sugar of 1.3 pounds of Jolly Rancher sugar in your stomach just has to do something to you. I mean, it is effective when they show the amount of sugar on a TV ad or whatever to me. I'm always like, whoa. So maybe they could have done that. And you know the Jolly Rancher isn't. I'm not trying to shame this guy for like if like, by the way, right. No shame about eating Jolly Ridge is I've eaten a hundred of a lot more dangerous things in my life.

I know it sounds like we're being shaming. I'm trying to make more fun at the behavior, the response of Zach Bagan's. Promise, promise. But I will say I'm sure like Zach who is like all, you know, beef cake out. Because he's so, he's so like intense about his body. He's for sure thinking like if it's 1.3 pounds. of sugar a day, just in Jolly Ranchers. And you know this guy, because everybody, he put it into his My Fitness pal. I bet you a hundred bucks to see how much. I'm saying like, there's no way that

Jolly Ranchers are the only sugar that man's eating every day because like without even thinking about it, everyone's eating more sugar than that. So he's definitely calculating in his head. I don't know if he has time to eat anything else. That man loved Jolly Ranchers. And you know what? I hope the Jolly Rancher reaches out to him and goes, we could use a little facelift on our brand. You want to be in on that? good for, I hope something good comes out of it for you. You know, I do too because like, don't, no shame in that game. You know, just you do you. It's one of my fucking business.

It's also not a Zachary's fucking business. Well, Zach, I'm sure like that those facts, we've really derailed here. But I will say the Jolly Ranger thing, like you should have seen his face. He looked floored. I got to wash it. I got to. And then he basically said like, well, since you have a Jolly Rancher problem, he then said, do you think that eating that many Jolly Ranchers a day could give you delusions about about the ghosts that you claim you've seen?

Oh, so now he's diagnosing him. So the whole reason the Jolly Ranchers even came up was for him to have some little bit about like, do you think you're like having like sugar hallucinations? Right, because that is what happens, Zach, as he knows so well, I'm sure. I literally, anyway, I hope. And that man, you know what? He responds. He, he, had decorum to him that guy because he really could have fed into that bullshit and he was just answering the questions point blank he's like no he's like no he's like my authentic self fuckhead he's like i can fucking sue me i like a jolly rancher and i see a ghost every now and then what do you want um so by this point uh he's we're now getting to the ghost and he's saying like oh yeah

well i saw all my jolly rangers in the jar like all moving around as if like a little kid's hand was sifting through them that's what he saw you know, the thing that's obviously a delusional situation, according to Zach's sugar calculator. Yeah. Well, so then the guy jokes, he's like, you know, I did not like that that little girl was trying to take candy out of my jar. I don't even let my kids share my candy with me. And Zach ends this bit by going, I'm sure this little girl's spirit is just as angry at Jeff for not sharing his jolly ranchers as his own children are. Well, okay.

Can you leave this man alone? You just give it a fucking rest. Why are you making these weird? Like we get it. You don't like sugar. Like I'm chugging and both like a 10 a.m. Leave me alone. You know?

Just like leave everybody alone. Okay. So anyway, I swear we're almost done. But the Jolly Ranch, apparently the Jolly Ranger scene was the reason people suggest this episode. That's hilarious.

Like ridiculous things that's exactly. How many Jolly Ranchers are you putting down a day? Answer me. And honestly, I don't know my own answer because I've never thought I've had enough Jolly ranchers. But I've also just never around them longer.

Really? I've never been around Jelly Ranchers long enough to find my limit. I eat one and I'm like a green apple one will last me like an hour. I'm like, that's a lot. Well, that's what I'm saying because I don't bite them. I suck on them. And so like by the time I'm done with that first one, I've already left the premises and don't have an option to take more. I'm just thinking like even if I take a few, I'm like eating one. You know, it's like it's a lot. I mean, again, no shame because clearly this is working for this guy. But I like I like that you said you are a green fan because that's also my flavor. Oh, I love it. And that is a sour one. So maybe that would be different. Maybe he eats like the purples that are like sweeter. Way too sweet. I love the purples too. But green is the go too. Green's my go too. And I'll take a blue. But other than that, I don't want them.

No, me neither. So Zach goes, oh, so this is now we're getting into the last few bits here. So we're done with that interview. Now Zach is interviewing the owners and they take him down this really dark back hallway. And as they're saying the phrase, we just don't like to go in here. Zach responds with, can you go in there? Typical. He's like, good. Then I have the perfect question for you. And not just go in there, but go in there pitch black.

So you can't see anything. Sure. So he goes in there with one of them. They then come out. He goes in now with the husband of the two. And when they, as soon as the guy, he's like having the guy walk all the way to the back of the hallway, like go as far back as you can. the pitch black. And as the guy is saying, like, our staff won't even go over here. Like,

it really freaks him out. As he's saying that mid-sentence, Zach just fucking leaves and goes and walks away and just leaves that guy in the hallway. This is exactly how I imagine anyone being around Zach Baines would feel like. Like, did he just walk away from me as I was speaking? Yes. Yes. Like for the audio of the show, don't you want it to keep it move? So, um, he then calls the hall a portal. I thought it was very funny, uh, camera play where, as the camera is showing you the doorway at the back of the hall, Zach goes, I think it's a doorway.

It's like, I know he meant portal, but like it was such a funny play on. It's like when he went, is this a chicken nuggin? We were like, are you having an episode? He's like,

I think it's a doorway. Like, okay. It sure is. Your brain's ticking today. I'm really happy. So then he says he thinks the little girl everyone's been seeing and hearing is not actually a little girl, but a protector of this portal.

And later that night, wouldn't you know it, Zach breaks out fully in hives all over his body. Throughout the show, people's all the Jolly Ranchers. The sugar near me is too much. He had one Jolly Rancher and was like, actually, this is going to kill me. So throughout the show, they sense many very cold, cold spots. They see something on the SLS camera.

They swear they see a little girl's arm reach around the door frame, but you don't see it on camera. For into the Jolly Rancher pole. Right, yeah. they hear footsteps, they hear banging, they hear loud whistling. The thermal camera suggests that someone's next to them. As Aaron is saying that the ghost clearly want them to leave, there actually is a huge crash behind them. And things fly off the shelves.

Yeah, when you see a big crash and they're all in the room and they all freak out, I do get a little spooked by that because I'm like, what the F? That was definitely the spookiest part. It was just like, and as he's saying, like, they clearly don't want to see Earth and then just huge loud crashing. then Zach makes Aaron go walk outside in the woods to attract the vampire creature sure of course But when he comes back in it's very interesting Aaron does seem to have gone into a weird trance and starts acting kind of weird At the same time that that happens Zach gets a huge scream on a spirit box and I'm just going to end on what I think is the most interesting part Was that they went into Clark Gables room and used a spirit box to try to talk to him and they only got two words They got Potosi and miss her and Potosi was the name

of the mountains that his wife died at. So they got Potosi and miss her. Oh my God. Zach then literally tells the ghost that is maybe Clark Gable, we visited your wife, we visited your wife's crash site, because she died a plane crash. We visited your wife's crash site and then the clip shows footage of the wife's crash site that they were at on their cameras when they were filming for the Pioneer Saloon, which I'll be covering next week.

See, it's so weird. What the fuck? That's the Wolf Creek Inn. I'm sorry that that was so long, but I wanted to give you a good one for 500. Wow, what a tail. Wolf Creek Inn, man. Never even heard of it. I hadn't either. And now I also, I love when I ends up having notes for next week already done.

So it's perfect. Already just like lined up. That's kind of awesome. Fantastic. Well, so we're going to hop onto a yappy hour now. and we're going to talk about why we're going to Utah this weekend because we have an exciting person in our lives whom we love to celebrate. Oh, it was an ad we did. Oh, it was the mug. I was going to get the mug. That's fine. I'll get it another time. But yeah, if we have another pee break, I'll go get the Zazel mug. But we are going to talk about, yeah, the lovely Eva's wedding weekend. So we're upcoming. So we'll hop on yapia. Otherwise, we'll see you after the. the break. Where some see heroes and others see egos. Bloomberg sees the era of billionaire athletes. While others follow the noise, we follow the money. Learn more at Bloomberg.com.

I got an email yesterday that was like, hmm, uncategorized transaction. And I was like, oh boy, this better, this, this will be good. And I opened it and I realized like there was this payment I had made. Anyway, it doesn't matter what it was. But the point is, Rocket Money has got my bad. and I was able to like hop in, re-configure some things and be like, oh, okay, that's where that money was coming from. I wanted it. Rocket money has saved my butt in countless ways. It's like every time we do one of these, I'm like, oh, yesterday, Rocket Money helped me with something because it's just that regularly beneficial to my life. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel unwanted subscriptions monitors your spending and helps lower your bills so you can grow your

savings. And truly, just like Christine said, there are times where I'm like, oh, Rocket Money is done this job. now I don't need it anymore. And then I subscribe to something else. What's wrong with me? And then like a week later they're like, you did it again. And I'm like, no, surely I didn't. And I let Rocket Buddy help you reach your financial goals faster. Join at RocketMoney.com slash drink. That's rocket money.com slash drink. Wow, Christine, look at your locks. Okay. You don't even need to fake it because today I did. I washed and blow dry my hair. Well, actually, I didn't blow dry. That's a lie. But I did wash it because I was like, I want to show off.

Like I feel like when I do the ads, it's hard to show. But like for Neutrophol, Like, it really, I do take it every day and it has really made my hair so much thicker. I mean, I'm showing it here on camera, which is something I've never done in the past. Like, look how poofy it is. Your little Mufusa, Maine. I feel like so much more confident in the amount of hair I have and how like full it is. Every time I wash my hair, I'm like, I hope we have Nutraful to talk about. And it just never aligns properly.

But today I wash my hair and I'm here to show it off. Well, Nutrifle is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand. And it's the number one hair growth supplement brand personally used by dermatologist and Christina. And now the Nutriful Women's Formula has been upgraded to its most advanced version yet. It's 100% vegan, biotin-free, and comes in a smaller capsule size to make your daily routine easier. The smaller capsules makes it a lot easier as well. And I was like, thank you for continuing to improve the product. I think that's a really cool thing.

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That's Nutrafol.com. Spelled N-U-T-R-A-F-O-L dot com promo code drink. All right. Well, he has planted himself firmly in the lap. So I guess we're both ready. In the limelight of your lap. I would, I don't think anyone would be able to see him, but he's. So we're both ready.

for a good story. That was worthy of a real gasp. Like that came out of my soul. I know that wasn't even, I couldn't have stopped it if I wanted to. He's been doing it a lot lately where he just like really shoves his face into the crotch and then doesn't leave.

I don't know what that means behavior-wise, but he's really into it. I think it's like getting pet, you know, just like that put your head. I think it's like the burrowing. The thing is Gio's short so he can't reach that.

But if he's on your, he does that when he's like on couch, level like he does the same thing. So precious. Yeah. Well, Hankies and I are ready for a good story. All right. I think you're going to like this one.

It took me a few weeks to figure out what I was going to do. And when I did, I just giggled to myself and kicked my feet. Okay. Oh, my God. I'm so excited. Yeah. Will I know it if like, will I guess it or what? Here we go.

This is the topic for you, M. of old-timey forensics and the ridiculous things people used to do. That's incredible. Analyze crime scenes. Oh, 10 out of 10. The stand-up bit from, what's his face? John Mullaney. John Mullaney, like mop it up or what you went.

I knew you'd remember. Now, back to my hunch. Yeah, now back to it. I always forget it. And you always remember. So I didn't even look it up because I knew you would. Yeah. But this is the very clear and direct guidance I gave Sersha.

And Sersha said, I'm on it. And sent a salute. emoji and I love the way they did this. I really do. So it's a fun little, it was like a little team effort, but also they named it old timey forensics, which I loved. The way I described it was, you know that John Mullaney bit M loves that I'm not going to look, I'm actively not going to look up, you know, that whole thing. A big puddle of DNA. Yuck, mop it up. Now back to my hunch. Yeah, that's the one. So I thought we got to, we got to look into this. And after I kind of botched a few things with trying to be trying to make something work for the show and then having to completely revert to just like reading out of our own book, stuff like that.

I was like, we got to nail this one down. I'm very excited. I've wanted this for so long. Few, here we go. This is wonderful. It's the year 1247. Okay. Do you remember it?

Not well. Yeah. So there is this, I want to say, a treatise or a pamphlet. You know how we love an old-timey pamphlet. Okay. Mm-hmm. It's from the Fujan province of China, and it was, which is the present day name, it was written by Song Chi, and it was called Collected Cases of Injustice rectified,

which is the English translation. It is also sometimes called The Washing Away of Wrongs. And according to the Library of Congress, it is recognized as the world's first ever systematically written book of forensic science. Hell yeah.

Yeah, 1247. No chance that's on eBay, huh? I know, right? Like, maybe, maybe. Would love a copy. You'd got to pull a Nicholas cage to get that out of the Library of Congress, for sure. Okay, so the book contains

detailed instructions to perform thorough autopsies, how to investigate crime scenes themselves, and many like actual specific methods of investigation by detail. It also contains the earliest known documentation of forensic entomology, which is the use of bugs in criminal investigations. So here's an example from this book, which mentions entomology as a method of in 1247. Here's an example from the book. An early murder case appeared to have been committed using a sickle. So everyone in the area who had used sickles, which was most people, in daily work at that time to harvest rice, these folks were summoned to one place and instructed to bring their sickles.

They were laid under the hot sun. And eventually, a significant number of flies swarmed one sickle while ignoring the rest. fascinating. Yes. The magistrate concluded that they were drawn to the unseen remnants of blood and other gore that the murderer had not been able to fully clean off of the sickle. And he broke down and confessed in front of the other suspects. And so, yeah, 13th century. That's so smart.

It's like, well, which one has the gross decaying smell? Which one do the flies? Which one has death on it? Yeah. Wow. Wow, that's crazy. I would have never, honestly, if you told me even five minutes ago before I knew about the 1200s being involved in this, I didn't think evidence was even an option until, fuck, way later than the 1,200s. I thought everyone just gets away with murder until, I don't know, I don't even know, I would have never known the 1,200s.

Yeah, that's, well, okay, and I will give you some credit because we'll get into, remember, we're also discussing, like, the old timey not effective methods. So even though this is 1247, there's a whole lot between then and now that's like not so great. It's like not so impressive. Got it. So, but yes, this really is wild.

I was very impressed by this information. And so, yes, that's just an example from the book. So, but yeah, it demonstrates that as early as the 13th century investigators in China were observing how insects interacted with like the blood and tissue of a murder victim, which is still a science that is used today. But let's just say, I love how search to put this actually, probably much better than I did. Advancements in forensic science have never exactly been linear. And I think that's a really great way to put it.

Great way to put it. Yes. Across centuries and countries, of course, investigators have relied on varied methods, many of them very, very, very questionable at best. Songchi laid out extremely high standards for performing meticulous autopsies, emphasizing that mistakes could lead to false convictions and further injustice. Meanwhile, in the 1990s in the U.S. in Texas, Dr. Ralph Erdman was botching his autopsies left and right so significantly that hundreds of the autopsies he performed revealed outrageous, quote unquote, mistakes. Oh, sure.

Yeah. So, you know, think of that kind of. whiplash from 1247. I guess it's not whiplash because it's a really long ways away, but it just goes to show like even how absolutely different practices can be from. 1990s. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I have nothing to say. That's just crazy. Well, I do want to tell you a little bit about the botched autopsies because they are just something.

hundreds of autopsies revealed mistakes like making a statement about weighing a dead man's spleen during an autopsy only for it to be later confirmed that the man's spleen had been surgically removed years before his death. Oh. So what had Ralph weighed? Like, would it be worse if he just made it up completely or if he was so bad at anatomy that he like weighed the wrong organ and called it a spleen? You know what I mean?

Oh, Ralph. Like it brings it. Oh, Ralph. It brings to mind so many questions. Like, is it better or worse that he's just bad at it or that he's lying? You know what I mean? Like, it's just all shady and weird. Or did he really think it was or like?

Exactly. Is he just dumb or is he lying? And it really makes you wonder. And then the fact that like what else did he fuck up? Apparently a lot. Apparently a lot of things. In another case, for example, he somehow misplaced the head of the victim. The head.

How do you miss that? How do you, does that just chef boyer? rolled down the street and that's how you lose it because there's no other way you can lose a head. That's really the only explanation because wouldn't you know it? The head was suspected to contain a bullet which was the cause of death and the head was never located. He just lost it. So prime evidence and we just, where you run to the bathroom and you leave it on the counterback accident? Truly, where does it fucking go? Maybe he thought it was a spleen and he put it back to, you know what I mean? Like I'm like, I don't know with this fucking guy. That's crazy. Like I could

understand as someone who doesn't know which organs or which, I can understand mixing up a spleen with like a liver or something. I cannot a spleen or anything in a head or like just losing a head. How do you fucking, I can't imagine holding a head that's not attached to a body and then just not knowing where it is. Only an example of hundreds of things that you've done so egregiously wrong, you know, that have like caused serious damage to all these cases. It's really upsetting. Does he have a name like like the dummy of forensics or something? You know, I don't know because that's a good one if they don't have one for him yet. He absolutely, he should be notorious for being the person you cannot be worse than.

He must be because this is clearly the example that was given, you know, as the perfect counter to Songchie's beautiful treatise on how to do a proper autopsy. We were just saying at a previous episode how like, you know, the art of using a name to suggest that you really fucked something up. Yes. Rathed it. You rafed it is good. It sounds good.

Yeah, it sounds good. Yeah. So you've got Songchi here laying out how to do like this autopsy properly in 1247. Now Ralph is losing people's heads in the 90s. So ups and downs all over the place. Now let's get into crime scene handling, which is kind of where this all began, right? with the with the John Mullaney and all that. So for a long time.

Yeah, here we go. There was no widely accepted official procedures as we've kind of gathered. I always think of Velisca Axe Murder House and those kind of things. Yeah. It really is like almost absurd the amount of what, like the amount of just how wrong everything was treated as like a crime. as far as crime scenes go. And how they're just picking things up and putting them down and just like, like, I'll tell you all about it. So thank you so much for asking.

Apparently how well or on the other side of the coin badly a crime scene was secured was just up to chance completely. We covered a case. It was a case of Edward Wheeler Hall and Eleanor Reinhardt Mills. They were murdered in New Jersey in 1922. And their bodies were discovered beneath a crabapple tree at the border of two counties. and then different police forces disagreed over whose jurisdiction the scene fell under. And while they were having this disagreement, the crowd that had gathered just started walking around as these bodies were laying there, like picking up the victim's belongings, passing them around, going through their purse and touching everything. And the police are arguing about whose jurisdiction it is.

they took Eleanor's scarf and hat. They even started peeling bark and breaking branches off the crabapple tree for souvenirs, you know, of the crime scene. Crazy. Yeah. The scene was completely compromised, but it wasn't even just the fact that like civilians got their hands on literally their hands on everything. It was also the fact that investigators didn't even like bother getting evidence themselves. So it was like, they weren't really worried about that. I guess.

It like wasn't like the John Mullaney bit. Like I literally didn't think about it. And I wonder like it. They, I feel like it's one thing to like not know that DNA is something that you can collect for evidence. But everybody had to know that like we should keep this. We should keep everything as is so we can figure out the story. We should keep the scarf on the body of the dead woman so we can see if it had anything to, you know what I mean?

That part just like, because it's one thing to be ignorant. to something, but it's another thing to just feel like really knowingly insensitive about it. Like if it, I feel like at no, at any point in time, like if I were to time travel back to the 1500s and I saw a death, I feel like I would know like let's, maybe I wouldn't know the phrase to cure the area, but I'd be like, let's take a look and see if we can figure it out. You'd think, but then I think there's also a power to like one person went to look. So like, I followed and then like the police don't care. So I guess we can look and like someone. just handed me something. Right. No one's telling us no.

I don't know. It's like, I can see where you'd get kind of mixed up in this. I like to think I would not, but what the fuck do I know? Do you know what year-ish or what era they start securing crime scenes to be able to like just study it? So that was like a Sherlock Holmes.

I don't know. We should look up like when caution tape started, well, I don't know if that would be helpful. Or when people just started saying don't steal that. Yeah, I don't know that there. was necessarily a year because it was also like every jurisdiction, every town, everything was like kind of different, you know, it was sort of like by the luck of where you were or like, see, here, this jurisdiction issue caused this whole delay and now people are like peeling off bark of the tree. I mean, it's just insane. So the scene was completely compromised. They didn't even photograph the bodies even though the police had that technology. It was sort of just like, well, that was weird and then like moved on, you know. It's insane. Yeah, it is. It is. It is. it is. Crime scenes were often trampled by onlookers, by family members, right? You have to remember like, you know, if you think about it, like, you often see in scenes of, of fictionalized crime, like the family trying to get to the body of their loved one and having to be held back. And it's like,

there was a time where they wouldn't hold you back. Right. So I guess then I could at least, I can understand that compromising the, absolutely and jumping in. Absolutely. I think most people probably would do this, whether or not you even realize what you're doing. It's just human nature. It's probably instinct. But so, yeah, so family members, onlookers, investigators themselves would be disregarding the crime scene. In a time before evidence like DNA, like you mentioned, or even fingerprints could be

analyzed. Of course, no one could be expected to avoid, like, compromising that kind of evidence, because we wouldn't have known about it, like you said. But, like you said, you didn't need to, like, fucking trample. and like disrupt the entire scene and like let people just like show up and take the clothes off of the people. I mean, that's a little like a rational mind. But I guess when there's power of numbers and the police are not saying anything, what are you going to do? Like walk away.

Also like if somebody emotionally just like ran to the scene and all they disturbed everything, then it's almost like, well, it's already been damaged. So I guess like. We're not going to like pull her away or whatever. Yeah, I don't know. But like, oh, yeah. Yeah. it's yeah that's hard so not only that but the media was often also allowed into scenes and like I remember this with the Pearl Bryant case where like journalists were just like getting up close to

the body and like you know it's just like that and so we're onlookers that was also a very similar situation um but yeah the media was allowed to like walk around look at things take pictures um and then that means they were allowed to like touch things move things you know and it's like I don't like that um for example at this time this was like not an unheard of thing to happen if like say your neighbor was murdered um neighbors would just walk in the front door and like poke around crazy and just like see during the investigation well i feel like that that happened maybe during lizzie borden i feel yeah i was just thinking that of that example yeah i think that's right think that did happen. Everyone was just going in and looking around and like talk about like how she

would have not been able to get away with that today with like just blood spatter everywhere. Like it's it anyway. I feel it to this day, sorry, to this day that location is like not properly preserved. Like they are not in my opinion respectfully taken care of it like they just let people like take pictures on the couch where the dad die and like pose with like a fake axe and shit. And then they tried to turn it into an axe-throwing station for a while. I'm like, what is wrong with these people? Like, I mean, I say as someone who has paid money to go visit that house. But, you know, it's.

But yeah, you do see like, okay. I feel like from the beginning, from the very start of all this, it's just never been. It was like made for looky-loose a little bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I totally agree. And like, it's hard because like, yeah, we are kind of looky-loose in a lot of ways because it's just, a human nature, but be also like our nature. like we are curious and nosy and like, you know, love a story and what, but, but this kind of shit, let's be real.

Like, this is out of hand. Like being, being, being, wandering into your neighbor's house and looking around a crime scene is, is a wild choice to me. It should be a big no-no. Should be a no from any, any decade if you ask me. But anyway, all right. So, of course, we still to this very day discuss the issue of bad crime scene forensic etiquette, right? Like, we're still having that, running into that issue in a lot of cases.

But now, at least there are, like, widely accepted standards for comparison. So it's more likely that someone who's careless will be called out. But, like, when was it kind of standardized? Like, it's still not necessarily something that everyone follows, like, to protocol. You know what I mean? Like, there are protocols, but, like, not everyone in charge follows scientifically backed standards. And there are still issues with this kind of thing that happened, issues with miscommunication, whatever. Anyway, we're going to now move into some actual methods that were used. So the first one I have is kind of a surprising one that I didn't realize was so controversial, which is bullet comparison. Oh, interesting. Okay. I thought you were going to say like, like, well, you can't. Go ahead.

Bullet like, yeah, no, no, not that. I know what you mean, but matching bullets to specific guns because this has been like long considered a reliable forensic technique in murder trials and has definitely been used in several cases up covered. And the idea is that a bullet or casing will have unique marks from being fired from its weapon. So when investigators discover bullets or casings at a crime scene, they can find the matching exact weapon and prove the owner fired that weapon at the crime scene. by fingerprints, what have you. Makes sense to me. Yep. The issue is that it's not actually quite as reliable as advertised.

Oh. I know. And apparently bias makes it worse. A recent study by Iowa State University found that ballistics experts enthusiastically report when they've confirmed a match for the prosecution, but often avoid reporting a mismatch that would support the defense. Instead, they tend to label mismatches as, quote, inconclusive, which deliberately implies it might be a match, even once.

when it clearly isn't. So that is not great. It is shady. But on top of that, the state of bullet slash casing analysis used to be even worse because before this guy named Philip O. Gravel invented

a comparison microscope where you could look at two things at once. What you'd have to do is put the bullet under the microscope, look at it, try to remember it, like a freaking highlights puzzle. and then move it and put the other one and go, okay, I think it looks the same.

And then switch it back. Fucking crazy. I know. And even if you had two microscopes, you would still be going from one to the other to the one and going. And there was no way to look at both simultaneously, closely enough to really get a good look. Or get a picture of either so you can look at them next to each other or analyze them.

No, they were just kind of like playing a highlights game. And people's lives were at. Full steak. I'm in a high. Leon and I are in highlights zone right now. So I see. Top of mind, you know. Um, she just started reading the other day.

What? Sorry. She just started reading in front of me the other day. Reading what? Reading a book. Yeah. She just knows words now? Oh my God.

She just went. Bluey and. Bingo. Went. downstairs and I looked at her and I was like, did I miss something? And she goes, I guess I can read now. And I was like, what the F?

And I texted everyone in my family and they were like, no, we have no idea. So it just happened. It just literally turned on. Like two days ago. I was just sitting there and she just was like, and she goes, wow. And now she's just like, I want to read things.

And I mean, she's still like very much learning. But it was like, she read. It like, it like, click. It clicked. She was like, oh, I get it. Like, and, you know, anyway, it was really crazy. Oh, my gosh. Well, hey, congratulations to Leona.

Damn. I was like, how has nobody told me this update? Like. Did she even know? Did she realize at the same time? Were you both just blown away going, oh, my God. So I thought surely, like, she had known already that she could do this, even though she said no.

But then the next, like, oh, wow, I can read, I guess. The next day, I'm telling the next morning, I'm like, oh, my God, Blaze, listen to this. like this is a book she just started reading i have a video and um and i'm telling blaze and she overhears me and she goes yeah it was so strange i guess i just learned how to read suddenly and blaze was like oh okay girl first i'm hearing of this so anyway it was just really bizarre wow so you really watched you watched her gain like sentience that's crazy it was it was really it was very rewarding i was like hell yeah hell yeah brother all right oh she was so empowered after that

all she wants to do is read and I'm like I've never been so proud of my life. Precious. It takes fucking forever. Isn't this like about the age that she's supposed to know how to read or is this? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's like normal. It's not like abnormal. But I think it was the way that it just sort of.

I mean, to witness the moment is crazy. And it was her fifth day of school and I was like, did it happen? Did something just like click? Some friend taught her the hack just when you know what you got to do. Like I'm not like training her. to read. You know what I mean? Like, I know they're learning their alphabet. And we read books, but we're not like doing some program or something. You know what I mean? Right. Right. I'm just like, she'll learn when she learns. Well, apparently she just decided one day. So. Oh my God. But it took my

sister a really long time to learn to read because she was so stubborn and said, I won't learn to read because I want you to read to me. And if I learned to read all. So she just was stubborn. Yeah. And so, but now she's an avid reader. So it doesn't say anything about what time you learn to read or whatever. But it was just like such a shocking up. date and I was like, what's happening? Anyway, fun fact. Sidebar. Hang on.

Hang on. Let me do something crazy. I don't know what this is. What? But I went to, I got the milkshake out. Yeah? Is that a fucking leg? Is that a bug leg?

What is that sticking out? M. M. What is that? M. Put that down. So anyway, I need a napkin to grab it and pull. No, don't pull. No, take the lid off first.

No, because what if it's alive? Oh, it just fell right off. Well, now I know nothing. No, M, don't take the leg off to put the lid off so you can see what the legs attached to. Worst thing in the world is this one happens to be Oreo, so I'll never know what the clumps are if they're oros oros or not. You will. It's a bug. Open it.

That was a bug leg. I need to be honest with you. That was a bug leg, right? Yes, it was a bug leg. Please open the lid. It's not alive, I promise. I'm going to scream. I've just touched it with my bare hands beforehand.

I told you to open the lid, not pull on the leg. I'm going to scream. I'll never know. You will. I'll never know. Scoop it out. I have nothing here. A spoon. Don't even.

Don't. You're not going to drink it, are you? No, I'm not. No, I'm not. That was a bug leg. Right? Okay. I'm glad we all thought.

Okay. So, hmm. So I'm having one milkshake today. Hope that's okay. That's hilarious. That literally was so just, I was, I thought so many times like, I got to put a straw on that thing. And then I was like, that looks like a lick.

I'm distressed about that. That was not. I'll go digging after the, after all this. Okay. Can you sent, like, no, don't send me a picture. Can you tell me if it was a bug? Well, yeah. Because I just don't know.

That was really disgusting. I like, literally, I, that's why I was, you kept telling me about Leon a reading and I like, did not want to lose that moment. I didn't see you doing something. And I was like, if I had known it was so urgent, I would have shut up. But I mean, no, no, no. I just, I didn't want to, I didn't want to take that moment from like, that's such a big announcement. But I, um, but I was like, I'm pretty sure that's also like a fucking spider roach leg. No, that's also an emergency. So it really was like, if it was like, if it was a lot, it would have been an emergency. If it was moving around. Certainly. I wouldn't have let you give that one up. No. Um, wow. Okay. So that's shocking.

I don't even know where we were here. But, uh, basically, oh, they were trying to do the back and forth. Oh, highlights. That's why. Because I was saying like, we're really into highlights magazine right now. And this is part of the reason. Right. But she's, but she loves like the silly pictures and like find the different spot the difference. That's what this is with these microscopes looking at bullet casing. Like with people's lives. Like their entire futures. So yeah, they would like just try to go back and forth, back and forth, back and forth and be like, yeah, I think it looks the same. That was about it. Yeah. And then you could get an innocent person convicted or killed. Oops, if you mess up. So no big deal. Yeah. I don't think highlights is quite as high stakes, but what do I know? That would have been, you know, back in the day, though, maybe that was part of their training. It's like, okay, get a highlights magazine. You got to practice 10 differences in this picture. Go for it.

I feel like you'd have to look at two barcodes, you know, and be like, what's the difference? You know what I mean? Like, what are the line? And it's like, how on earth are you supposed to trust that you're doing this right or that you're like not this fucking guy? What's his name? He ralphed it and like put the head somewhere. It's, you can't do that. No. So let's get into hair analysis, which I did know was a very controversial subject. Or not controversial subject, but controversial method of forensic analysis.

So DNA was not used as evidence in the U.S. court system until 19. 86, so rather recently. And until then, hair analysis was a very popular forensic technique. Experts, so-called experts, would use microscopic with these fucking microscopes analysis to compare the hair of suspects to hair they discovered at the crime scene. If they believed the hair samples were a match, they would testify during trials that this was evidence of the defendant's guilt. And this was accepted at the highest levels. The FBI presented microscopic hair analysis as evidence in as many as 3,000 cases. But when the advent of DNA evidence as a tool came around,

it was determined that you cannot actually prove that hair came from a person's body just by looking at it because you could look at it and then do a DNA test and they'd be completely different people. Crazy. Could it also do like animal versus people? Because what if there was like a dog or a cat in the area and now it's, Because of the same color. I believe.

You mean, wait, you mean like animal to animal? Or you mean like animal to human? Is animal to human also like a risk factor? I think probably they were more likely to be able to determine if it was like cat or dog hair. But I mean, I don't know. I don't know. So let's see. Hair analysis has basically gone the way of a similarly debunked form of forensic analysis,

which is bite mark analysis. Oh, I thought you were going to say blood spatter. Yes, very interesting, but we're going bite marks first, which has also been ruled pretty much useless in identifying attackers. In a 2015 statement, the FBI admitted that, quote, microscopic hair analysis contained errors in at least 90% of cases. 90%? Not at least.

Isn't that how Ted Bundy ended up getting caught, though? Hair analysis? Oh, bite marks. Wouldn't it a bite on someone's butt or something? Oh, I'm not sure. I think there was a bite that was part of the evidence, but I don't think it was like the thing that got him. Got it. Got it. Got it. I could be wrong with that. I don't know. But that that one was right. So. Right. And 26 is another quote. 26 of 28 FBI agents slash analysts provided either testimony with erroneous statements or submitted laboratory reports with erroneous statements.

So bite mark analysis had already been debunked, like before the hair stuff had been, was debunked. And so that kind of went the same way of like, oh, wow, we didn't realize how completely erroneous this was. The fact that more than 90% of the time it was incorrect is a shocking, a shocking number, errors in at least 90% of cases. And then 26 out of 28 analysts giving erroneous statements is also a shocking number. Wow. According to the Innocence Project, 329 wrongful convictions at the time had been overturned using DNA evidence to debunk the hair analysis. And 74 of the convictions involved faulty hair evidence, literally just looking at hair and going, yep, it matches their hair. Insane.

So here's a good way that Sircha put it to, like, put it in perspective. If you think about it this way, humans are mammals, right? Most of us grow some type of hair somewhere on our bodies. There are billions of us. So the hair on our bodies will inevitably look like the hair of other peoples. And so like imagine as an example trying to claim that a piece, like a strand of fur from one cat, a gray cat or something, belong to that gray cat, not the other gray cat down the road. It's a similar idea like brunettes or blondes. It's like, oh, well, it's the same color.

Exactly. So a billion pieces of hair per person. and then there's 8 billion people. Right. You're just going to be lost, lost. And yeah, and just by looking at it, like nothing more, you know. So it's just, there's just no way. So now we're going to go way more old school again.

We're going to go trial by dog combat. Oh. Yeah. Yeah. A 14th century legend tells a story of Aubrey de Mont Didier, a member of King Charles V's court. It goes that around 1371 he was murdered in the Forest of Bondi by Robert McCare. The only witness was Aubrey's dog who chased Robert until he was captured. Wow.

King Charles ordered that Robert fight a duel for his life against the dog. Robert was armed with a stick. The dog won the duel. Good boy. Robert confessed and was hanged for the crime. Hmm So we don't know exactly how accurate these details are But the dog

Basically The point is the dog Winning was evidence That the dog knew that the man killed its owner It feels a lot like Well if a witch floats or if a person A girl You say that because

About three bullet points later That's the exact thing But yes precisely It's like Well If a woman floats Then she's a witch or if the, whatever the, whatever it was.

But yeah, it's like lose, it just feels like, okay, I mean, I don't know. Maybe he did kill the guy, I guess, but like the fact that the dog, I don't know, it just feels bizarre that you, A, involve the dog in a duel at all. And then B, like, what the dog do? Damn. All he did was like help by getting the guy. Well, we don't, but that's the thing is like, how do we know that? Oh, right.

You just chase the guy down. So then they're like, well, the dog was really mad at you. So clearly he's testifying against you. Like, that was the logic. right? And also, I would mention to the rules of a dog duel. Like how do it's like if this guy was able to get up and confess to this later, he clearly didn't die. So the, like what are the dog won the duel. Right, exactly. So maybe this will be my next episode. Dog duels. Yeah. Like the fuck is a dog goal. Probably be so dark. I don't want to go there. Yeah. But so now I'm so glad that you said that. So let's go. There are a few more things here. How exactly accurate these details are as iffy. But the fact. that they used a dog's testimony is like not even that weird when you think of like the other historically used investigative techniques.

Before we get to the witch floating, there's another thing we've discussed on this podcast, which is episode 305. We covered the Greenbrier Ghost, which is a 19th century case in which, remember that guy, Trout, he was sentenced to life in prison for murdering his wife after his mother-in-law, the woman's mother, claimed she was visited by her daughter's ghost, who revealed, the details of how she had been murdered. And one report of the case claimed that when Trout, the murderer,

tried to wash some sheets after the crime that they turned red with blood. And this indicated that he was guilty. And interestingly, the idea that blood reacts to the presence of the victim's murderer is like a pretty common thing through history. Really?

Yeah. Got like some sort of like bond all of a sudden some like supernatural link. Yes. Yeah. 100%. It's called Cruination. Okay.

Many cultures have ancient variations of the trial by ordeal. And a trial by ordeal, first of all, what a nightmare. I want nothing to do with this. An ordeal to begin with is enough. I don't want it. I don't want it. And now I'm on trial on top of this ordeal. Fuck that.

Forget it. Via the ordeal. Yeah. It's all going to be bad for me. I think we know. So they're different by culture and era, but generally the principle is that an accused person must be put to some type of physical test to prove that they are innocent. God help me. Okay.

Right. Yeah. A popular example in Western media comes from the UK and colonial America and this podcast, which is submerging an accused witch in water to see whether they would float. A guilty witch would float, whereas an innocent person would sink. So no matter what, you're done. Either you are, either you're interstate. No longer with us. Either you're innocent and we drowned an innocent person or you float.

But we try about it. If you're not tied to a weight or anything, to save yourself from drowning, you would swim up and float. So now no matter what, you're all supposed guilty. But I think so they would like tie your arms and stuff too. I think it was like. Oh, so we're just killing people. Okay, cool.

Well, yeah. But I think also like even whether you're bound or not, you're right, like if you tread water. Right. If you can swim, you're screwed. If you can swim and you're not bound by, yeah, anything, you're screwed. You're a witch and we'll kill you later. Yeah.

And so it says here, though, like, the idea was that you would be rescued if you were innocent before you drowned. But like, you know, the witch trials aren't like notorious for being fair. They're notorious fine or helpful or life-saving. Efficient or life-saving, yeah. As early as a 12th century, people in parts of Europe were subjected to. to a type of trial by ordeal known as crueination. Now, crination comes from the Latin word cruantatus, which means to make bloody.

Okay. This ordeal was also known as the trial of the beer. Now, beer is spelled B-I-E-R, which is the German spelling of the beverage, but it was also apparently a type of cart used to transport human corpses. So I'm picturing like, bring out your dead. you know and like the cart from Monty Python is sort of what I'm picturing. So interesting that that word would mean two very on brand and that's why we drink things. You know, I hadn't even put that together.

Yeah. So that is it, was it called like a beer cart or like was it just one of those things were like two words mean the same thing or you know, I'm not. I'm not entirely sure because it just says the trial of the beer. Okay. So I'm not 100% sure. Maybe it'll come in one of these quotes.

But essentially what happened is the trial by ordeal forced a suspected murderer to confront the remains of a murder victim. And the belief was that the body of a murder victim would react physically to the presence of its killer. Usually the body would ooze blood either from the mouth or from the wounds, like where they were stabbed, for example. and the body might also froth at the mouth at its murderer's approach. This was the idea anyway. Yeah. How ideal? That would work if only that was as simple as it was.

I know, right? And it's like, yeah, I guess if I guess bodies do react strangely, you know, post-mortem and there wouldn't have been explanations. But like, yeah, this is a pretty wild one to me. That really would have been like back in the day when they thought that's how things got solved. They must have thought they found just the foolproof, like. Like, oh, just how easy is it to just lock people away now? I mean, the king literally, King James I first wrote about it and was like, this is it.

Like, this is modern stuff. And like, I get it. I mean, I get the hype of like, it feels like supernatural. But like, I don't know, a lot of things probably felt supernatural that were actual science. So it's like, I can't necessarily blame them for like. Is it, it's Neil DeGrasse Tyson, I think, who has that theory where it's like the more science we have, the less God there is. Because it's like the more things are able to be explained. the less you need to like just have faith in something.

Oh, that's deep. I have no clue. Yeah. I think that's it's like, well, they thought the sky was blue because the gods, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, well, actually now we have a reason for that and we don't need the gods story. Right, right, right, right, right. So anyway, I mean, yeah, I could imagine in a world where like you said, there was less science. Like you just have to assume that it's just beyond our realm of we just have to believe and or it could be.

And if a body is reacting a certain way, it's like, well, you know, it used to say it doesn't mean something, you know. I would believe in it. If I lived in that time, I would absolutely have fallen for it. Totally. So King James, as I said, the first of England believed in this forensic mechanism. In 1597, he wrote, In a secret murder, if the dead carcass be at any time thereafter handled by the murderer, it will gush out of blood as if the blood were crying out to the heaven for revenge of the murderer, God having appointed. that secret supernatural sign. Oh, a secret supernatural sign. You got to see how he wrote this shit. It's not anything.

There's a Y. There's, it's just nuts. It's just nutty is what it is. He was also, Murtherer, Murtherer. The Marthor. We are gathered here today. What's the, um,

yeah, yeah. Love, it's the Princess Bride, right? Yes. Yeah. Oh, I, why am I like, mawage, mawage. Malwage. Yeah, that's it. Malwage.

Okay, thank you. So, buta, but, blah, blah. So in addition to this sort of blood gushing phenomenon, sometimes the accused had to call out to the victim by name as part of this. Beer right. Like, they would have to, like, say the victim's name or even touch the victim with their hand called ordeal by touch. A lot of ordeal's going on. I don't like a single one of them. You know, it was too many ordeals when the first one was introduced.

Yeah, the ordeal itself is actually just a combination of all ordeals involved. It's actually enough. All of it's enough for me. I think it was enough from the moment it began. The Beer Right had other issues. In 1660, Maryland, Thomas Mertin, stood trial for the murder of Catherine Lake, a woman who worked as Thomas's servant. Three other servants testified that Thomas beat Cassidy.

And Catherine had indeed been beaten to death. So the servants were like, hey, ding, ding, ding, that's your guy. He's an abusive person. And he has beaten her in the past. And now she is dead and has been beaten to death. Hmm. But her body didn't react when Thomas was present. Okay.

Her dead body. Right. Of course. And it should have. It's a trial of the beer. And so he was acquitted for this. Wow. Yep.

You know, like he's just sitting there fucking shaken, hoping, hoping that nothing happens. I don't know that he was that worried because Catherine, they were like, nope, he didn't do it. Catherine was ruled to have died of fits of the mother, which was another way to say female hysteria, basically. She's a girl, yeah. In her thesis on the topic, Margaret Ingram wrote that speaking bodies, which is like the term for when a body is supposed to be. to be reacting to, you know, a living environment. Speaking bodies were usually only believed or heard if they were the bodies of men. Wouldn't you know it?

Especially in fucking 17th century. Women were considered, you know, just unreliable victims even back then, even after they were dead, which is a wild. Which is a wild thing to say. Like they can't even be dead correctly, you know? It's like, of course. Why not? Yeah.

Now, large-scale crewination was also sometimes done where like an entire neighborhood who knew the victim might have to go around like touching the body to determine if and if something, if blood happened, they'd be like, you did it, which is terrifying. Because if you didn't, it's like, what the hell? While there were always doubters who were like, there's no way this is real. and they were against it as a forensic technique. It was actually used into the late 19th century, so late 1800s. And for now, that's all I've got for you today, because I didn't want to go way too overboard. But yeah, happy 500.

I just thought we had to get into it. No, I'm sorry that mine was so long then. I just, man, that was a good one. That was a good call on a topic. Back to my hunch is exactly it. That sums up the entire. thing. 100%.

I, and I, I love that John Malini but it's so funny. Very good. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Well, okay, so what was out of all that?

What was your favorite thing that you learned? I gotta be honest. From the top, the flies was really cool. Yeah, I was going to say the fact that in 1200, we were like already like getting some really hot info that actually. was true. Yeah. And then 1990s, Texas, really, just being kind of the bare dichotomy of that was really

powerful. Yeah. Totally. And fucking Ralph. I'll think about him for the rest of my life. I'm going to, anytime I Ralph it, you know? And I'm not surprised, but it just goes to show that throughout the years, like, there's always been some real stinkers working in the medical field.

Like, someone should have been checking their work or they should have not gotten a certificate or however they got there. It needs to not happen. With a lot of responsibility was maybe not vetted properly. Yeah. And I truly wonder, did he think he deserved to be there? Or was every day, was he just praying that he didn't trip? You know, maybe that's my next rabbit hole, this guy.

Yeah. He seems like someone that, yeah, I don't know. He really throws me because I would love to get a drink with him and hate him the whole time, but ask a lot of questions. I'm, maybe I'll do that next. I'll look him up. I remember. I can't promise that. He's got to have a name. He's got to have a name. I didn't. I gave you his name. I gave you his name. No, no, no. He's got to have like a nickname of like the blank of medicine or something. Yeah, we'll come up with it. Hopefully if I remember. But I do have to pee. So I'm going to run away now. But I will do the final. Happy 500. Happy 500. We've done it. Happy millennium. That's why. We drink.

Don't you wish you could just hit skip on the worst parts of your life? You know the same way you can skip an ad? I get it. I'm Siaiaa and I live in Ice Cove. I've made some questionable decisions that didn't end up the way I planned. And today I'm still figuring it out. Somehow things usually get worse before they get better. Apparently, that's how I roll.

So bundle up and come along for the bumpy ride. Stream a new episode of North of North Tuesdays on CBC Gem. Where some see heroes and others see egos. Bloomberg sees the era of billionaire athletes. A fad to some? The future of money to others. We see crypto's trillion dollar swings. The end of jobs or the end of human struggle.

We see the endless funds fueling the AI hype. While others follow the noise, we follow the money. Learn more at Bloomberg.com.