And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 10: Michael Fitzpatrick of Fitz and The Tantrums

Episode Date: April 3, 2017

This French-American frontman is the principal songwriter of their own widely popular LA based band. Chances are you've heard multiple hits they've penned for said band on the radio, such as "Breaking The Chains of Love", "Moneygrabber", and "Out of My League". And while frontmen often times can have reservations about collaboration, this songwriter seeks it out and believes it to be a welcome addition to the creative process. And the writer is...Michael Fitzpatrick!  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey guys, this is, and the writer is. And I'm your host, Ross Golan. I've written with hundreds of writers and artists over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life and the industry, politics, composition, whatever. If you ask me, songwriters are some of the most worldly and intelligent people I've ever come across. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs. And most importantly, who the people are who write songs.

write the songs. Now I'm co-producing this with my friend Joe London, who is nominated for a Grammy earlier this year for Best Country Song. He makes us sound like angels. If you want to listen to the songs we discuss in this podcast, go to Spotify and look up our playlist and The Writer Is or go to our website www.com. And last thing, if you enjoyed this podcast, please rate us on whatever your preferred podcast listening site is, whether it's iTunes or it's one of the others, we appreciate that effort and thank you. Today we have Michael Fitzpatrick, the frontman and main writer of the critically acclaimed band Fitz and the Tantrums.

I run into Fitz all the time, sometimes in sessions, sometimes at the ice cream parlor near my house. So it's fitting that Fitz is our first front man on, and the writer is. But before we get to the interview, I want to say one thing about Fitz. Kudos to him, because he has found a way to be a frontman who embraces the songwriting community. See, for some reason, it's taboo for frontmen to work with outside writers. I don't understand that. Bands like Maroon 5, Weezer, Lincoln Park, or Bon Jovi, Aerosmith, or Kiss, they used to collaborate.

Some of them would even take outside songs. And I don't think any of their fans cared one way or another. Now, Fitz is an excellent writer. He could write for other artists, and he has. But I think what's also impressive is that when it comes to his own music, he doesn't mind sharing the wealth with both his band and the outside writing community. Now, here are a few notes you can follow along with this interview.

He's got a band, obviously. It's the tantrums. The tantrums are Noel Skaggs, Joe Carnes, James King, Jeremy Resumna, and John Wicks. He talks about a few other people in this. He talks about Dave Bassett, an excellent producer, who happened to go to my high school about 15 years before I did. He talks about Kevin Griffin.

Kevin Griffin is the frontman from Better Than Ezra, also a great writer and producer, and he mentioned Sam Hollander, a great writer and A&R guy. So without further ado, here is Fitz's interview with Anne the Writer in. Welcome to End the Writer is. I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's artist has penned multiple songs that have topped the alternative rock chart and has headline the biggest music festivals in the country. He defies industry standards both musically and personally.

Not only does he run a world-class band, but he is also successfully raising a family. He's proof that it's never too late to make it as a frontman. And the writer is, the musician I run into most in the streets of Los Angeles, Michael Fitzpatrick, aka Fitz from Fitz and the tantrums. Welcome. Thanks for having me.

Yeah, of course. Well, you know, it was interesting because we were just talking about charity, sort of, you know, and it's obviously really important for you. And I was, the first thing I wrote was that how the first time I saw you

was at the Art of Elysium event. I've told you this, that my wife was coordinating that event. At the time I was courting her, and she was like, come to this event and you were playing it and i i knew you guys i knew of you guys because i've been friends with lisa newpuff and joe carnes for you know years before that so it's kind of fun to hear like hear you in the environment of charity um and then starting the conversation today we were

already talking about charity and like the value of that i mean how did the art of alisium relationship happened do you do you still work with them is that a common that actually came through Lisa who you mentioned our manager and she was friends with a lot of the people in art of Elysium and they asked us to participate

and at that time we had been doing a lot of a lot of charity work we had been doing well shoot what's the other one we did it's like a get out the vote campaign we've just done a lot of that stuff You know, and it's always a bit of a challenge too

Because now where we're at in our careers We get asked to do a lot of that stuff All over the place And there's only so much that we can do So now we have to be a little more selective about it How do you respond to a charity that you believe in But you can't really play every show Well, if we can't play a show

We try and figure out another way That we can participate or help them out Whether that's helping promote their cause on our socials or if we can you know give them merchandise or sign posters and things that they can

auction off we do that a lot as a lot of auction stuff for different charities sure I think one of the things that I saw at the Art of Elysium event that we also kind of touched on before we started this was that you perform you performed there like it was you were headlining

Lollapalooza you know it's like it was a thing where you don't really have doesn't seem like you have multiple speeds when it comes to performing. And here now in your career, you're doing these sound checks and whatnot where people come to them to see you sound check and that you have to perform. Is there, I mean, that seems like a lot of energy all day, every day. You're telling me, my friend. How do you save, I mean, my, my, the thing with being a front man and a band, and you can explain it to people as much as you want, but it sucks because you have to

save your voice constantly. Do you lose your voice? Do you have to treat it? With respect, do you do you? I mean, it's a whole thing. You know, people think that being in a rock band and touring is like sex drugs and rock and roll. But honestly, for Noel and myself, it's like perform, sleep, perform, sleep, and rest. And on the last record, more than just a dream, when we had the two number ones at alternative out of my league and the Walker, it was we were grinding so hard doing so much stuff. because when you're a band that's on the radio, you have to work with the radio station.

So that means a lot of going to a radio station doing an acoustic performance for 30 radio listeners that come into the station or they go to a local pub and they set up a little thing for their listeners to come down. And we'll do sometimes two to three of those a day plus meet and greets, plus the show at night, plus interviews.

And actually the talking part is even more strenuous to my voice than the singing part. and we were grinding so hard every day even our days off on the road doing promo stuff that by the end of it I developed polyps on my throat and had to have surgery by the end of it but wow you had to do vocal rest and the whole thing then

oh yeah but I found out that I had a polyp and we had our biggest tour we had ever booked about to happen and it was either cancel our biggest headline tour of the U.S. ever or go out there and I asked the ear, nose and throat doctor, and he's like, well, you've already kind of done the damage. If you can get through the shows, then...

It's more of a pain threshold. Yeah, just do it. So I did it, and then barely made it through that one, crawled through that one, and then had to have surgery, and then that's like no speaking for two weeks, and then no singing for two months. And as soon as that two-month mark was finished,

we got on a plane and flew to South American did, the Lala Pluza run in South America. Wow. Wait, hold on. So when you do, because vocal rests, I find to be very cathartic. In a way, it's very frightening to go through anything like that. But it's the first time I actually listen to somebody else. You know, because, like, you can't talk.

So you're, like, typing out your questions and you're sitting there. Or my wife got me a little, like, chalkboard or one of the magic. A whiteboard magic marker. But the problem is, is I have terrible penmanship. So I would write it and she would be like, what? I can't, and I would just, it got old real quick. And especially when you have a little kid, the silence thing was actually very disturbing to him. And it made it a lot harder to not speak at all because he was kind of freaked out by it and wanted to communicate and sing and talk and couldn't do it.

So it was definitely a tough couple months. How did you, so you were two months silent? I was a month no speaking. No speaking or talking or singing And then soft speaking Soft spoken voice for the next month And no singing And then I literally like I said

Flew to South America and had to go do these big festival shows Didn't you have to strengthen your I did it I strengthened it by just having to get out there But when I first started singing again I was like wow My muscle is out of shape Well it's like tearing up your knee

in playing in a pro sport and then having to go back out and play it's like how are you supposed to cut you know in any sort of pro thing when you know your knee just gave out you know it's got to be some sort of repetition to make sure that you can do it did you have it all looked at and then

the guy said no you're good to go yeah he looked and he said it looks healthy godspeed and I literally had to go there and I started singing in Argentina my voice was definitely weaker do you rely more on Noel then in that case?

I can't really because I'm singing the lead melody most of the time she's harmonizing with me. I mean there's definitely some parts where she's singing a main melody. Did you guys rehearse or did you literally just jump out? No, that's the crazy thing also about this band is we never rehearsed.

How? Because they're honestly not to boast but they're that good of musicians. How did you meet them? I went to school with James King or saxophonist multi-instrumentalist extraordinaire. At Cal Arts. At Cal Arts.

Did that creep you out that I did my research? Continue on. And when I was writing those first couple fits in the tantrum songs, especially that first record, had a lot more blue-eyed soul to it. So I called James up and we started working on those first couple songs

and he's the one that introduced me to Noel. Was this in college? No, this was in college? No, this was in 2008. You went back to school? No, this was well after college. James had kept in touch and I would bring him in for sessions every once in a while.

And he introduced me to Noel and we literally put the five phone calls out, had the rest of the band, went to Amp Studio in North Hollywood, and had our first rehearsal. And the first song I ever wrote for Fits in the Tantoms was a song called Breaking the Chains of Love. And we walked in, people kind of knew each other, some people had played together before, and we played that song, and it sounded like we'd been playing forever. And I walked out of the room, called up the hotel cafe, and booked us a show for the next week. Sure. Walked back, and that was based off one song. Yeah. Performing.

Did that put pressure on having to write the rest of the music? Yeah, why everyone was like, we don't have enough songs to play a whole set. We will have enough songs. And that to me has always been my modus operandi as like book a show because nobody wants to have egg on their face. It's like a great way to crystallize everything. And from that first show, there was just that magical energy that was around the band. It's a different process when you're in a band. It seems like because so much of the live performance is a big part of it, that when you do, you go and you rehearse and you then record your songs versus in the in the part.

pop world, you tend to record the song and then you figure out how to play it. You know, I mean, it's sort of a different process. That's honestly the way that we kind of do it as well is usually because I'm such a studio person and love making tracks and writing in that way that most of our songs generally happen in that form, which is writing first, play later. I kind of always have that moment, though, where you've been playing a song for eight, nine months and I wish we could kind of go back and re-record. the song because you've figured out some stuff, you figured out how to make it hit a little harder,

translate a little bit better, but, you know, it's just the nature. You can't write an album, play it for six months, and then go back and re-record it. I mean, I guess you could, but not us. Well, certainly not re-record it. I mean, I guess maybe you do that like 30 years later. I don't know if anyone actually does that, but that might be a cool record. Only to get out of their master part of it. Right, right, right.

That's very stupid Before 2008, before the band What were you doing? You were an engineer Or were you like a producer? Well, for many... I mean, there was a good 10, 12 years there Where I was in L.A.

So many bands. So many... Were you always the frontman? In like nine out of the ten bands I was the front man And then there was that whole trip hop phase where I had like the girl singer doing like trip hop and I was doing all the beats and the music

Was that always a thing where you had a girl singer and you singing? Was that just like a natural thing? That was one of the first time I ever really did that And I wasn't even singing in that band It was her singing and I was just glad to like Not have to be the front man for for once But I you know 10 12 years of you know 8 to 10 bands so many demos so many like band photoshoots

in front of like the downtown courthouse and and just nothing but failure were any of them good um well that's the funny thing is that in my journey of trying to become a better songwriter when i look back at that time i go wow i really sucked at songwriting you know you uh it's been a lifelong journey for me to learn i think there's certain people that just have that god-given talent especially when it comes to talk about line to melody and lyric. And for me, it's been a real learning process over time of just slowly figuring out how to become better at it.

And there was some good elements to some of those other bands, but it was basically 10 years of nothing but, like, I couldn't get a phone call back. I couldn't get a single person to listen to a demo. Couldn't get a single person to show up at one of the thousand gigs I did at the Viper Room or... Crazy. or wherever. But you grew up, I mean, I know you were born in France, but you grew up here.

I grew up in L'I. Were you always in junior high, high school, high school in high school for the arts, Loxa here, for singing. And the funny thing was that I was in school. I mean, that was the first time for me. I was like this kid from the valley that went to an expensive private school called Oakwood. And then I left there and went to this public arts high school here in L.A. And for me, that was like the first time I was in school with black people, Mexican, people of different economic backgrounds.

And I got to the school and I was this skinny little white boy with a voice that was cracking. And there was these kids that had their R&B thing down. I mean, it was like guys that already were like growing full beard singing like Luther Vandros at 16. And I was so intimidated by. that world because they just had their flow. So down. It was so intimidating. All the runs they could do and stuff.

And so I really didn't have a lot of belief in myself as a singer, even though I was a singer. And then I went to school for film, actually at Cal Arts, and that's where I met James. And it was only in my senior year of college that I put my first band together, went into the studio at college, recorded. When is this? Oh, this is many moons ago. friend. This is in

early 2000s. And we went into the studio, recorded our first song. I went and laid down my vocal, came back out into the control room and they pressed play. And I was hooked. I literally called my dad and I said, I know you just paid for

four years of film school, but I'm going to go do music because this is my... What did he say to that? It was like, what the fuck? Did you guys seriously get in an argument about it? A little bit because He just spent all this money, you know, putting me through film school. And, you know, it didn't seem like trying to be a rock and roll musician was a worthy endeavor to support yourself. She was kind of right for a few years, though.

Oh, yeah. I mean, I was, you know, I was selling weed and begging for handouts every six months from my parents just to get by for a good 10 years. It's going to be really weird when you explain to your kids. that weed was once illegal and that you had to like ride your bike to somebody's house or drive and like go and probably play

like Nintendo 64 with them while they're buying while they're buying you know an eighth of weed it's like it's going to be it's like explaining it'd be like our grandparents

or great grandparents explaining what it's like in prohibition to try to sell booze and now it just seems ridiculous but at the time they were really breaking the law I know. It was crazy.

Did you ever get in trouble? No, never got in trouble. And that whole time I was just like, like I said, I couldn't get arrested, couldn't get anybody to pay attention to any of the projects I was doing. And then I wrote this one song that was finally like what I would call a bona fide radio hit. It was just this, I had this band that was kind of doing more of that fusion of rock and electronic. And finally this young manager guy said, I'll rep you guys, I'll manage you guys. And that was the first time anybody actually like stepped up.

Which is something where he saw you perform and was like, I like that song? I can't even remember. I think somebody introduced us and he heard the song and he recognized that it was a hit. And so he instantly took it out. And mind you, this band was like barely six months old. What was the band called? It was called Remedy. And he took the song.

song and shopped it to all the labels. And it became this huge buzz moment for all the labels. Cut to us, we did 10 private showcases in a row at SIR, where it was literally us on a stage, two suits on a couch with the arms

crossed. And it was like, this was already 10 years into trying to like make it in the business. And it was, for me, was this moment where I almost snapped because I was like, my destiny is literally like one heartbeat feet away right there.

Either they're going to say yes or they're going to say no. Right. It's a lot of pressure. I mean, that might be the most, it's hard to explain what it's like to put on a show for a bunch of people who are analyzing the performance

and not enjoying any of it. And you're sitting there. And it's not even a bunch. It's literally two guys sitting on a couch in the most stilow environment. Do you perform it to two people or are you performing like it's an arena? Always like an arena.

Always. And so we did those 10 showcases and it was 10 noes. in a row. 10, he's too old. It's not going to happen. How old were you at the time? I was 29.

And everyone was like, he's too old. Forget it. Did you look older? No, I look... Because now I think of you as looking really young. So that's like, did you always look your age? Yeah, I mean, I always, you know, I don't know. I think I looked

I looked age appropriate. I looked like a 29-year-old. old but that was a crazy thing they were like he's too old and I was devastated and that was like I said at the end of 10 years of trying and I was like I can't keep doing this so I had this friend this producer

named the band break up then yeah pretty much it was just like I couldn't keep going I was so hard because that's the common thing in LA I think is when people end up in a band and they're close and they get so close that they never break up so then they just keep trying to avoid

into something, but in reality, people tend to invest in potential. So once everyone says no, I'm not saying the right thing to do is to quit, but it's really interesting how many people push through and they try to reinvent themselves, but it's hard to make that first impression again. Yeah. I mean, it is. And for us, and I was just so deeply heartbroken by that point. that I was like I gotta change something up I just can't keep hitting a brick wall and

I knew this producer Mickey P who I had known for many years actually back when he was even a DJ and he did like Beck's Midnight Vultures album a lot of great indie records he was came up with Mario C Mario Caldato they were like part of that whole like first round of sampling guys yeah and he later went on to do all of those comedians that sing Oh yeah Flight of Concourse Yes thank you

And so I knew him And I called him every day for a year And he blew me off And then I finally Like I think one day he was like Fine come to my studio Just so I would stop bugging him And I was

Really good at Pro Tools by that time Like I knew my shit And so when you walked in You were recording all the demos all your bands Yeah I did everything myself You know I started with a four track and then I moved to a Vs 880 you know a little digital thing

and then I got my first you know digital like computer recording when my first hard drive was a two gig hard drive that cost a thousand dollars for two gigs and started working for him and instantly he saw he was like oh this guy knows what he's doing so I stuck around with him and then he started getting a lot of calls to write music for film and advertising and I was like

this we're going to run with It's kind of a good mix of having gone to school for film And then doing music for it And so we started doing a lot of music for advertising Basically hipster jingles Anything that any commercials or something that Oh I mean I did all of pedigree dog food for like seven years Amazing

Were you getting after it too? Were you singing on it? I mean I bought my first house because I wrote the Burger King theme song that's so rad and I went from a guy that when I say I did not make a penny from music I did not make a penny I spent thousands of dollars on demos photos flyers blah blah blah

for 10 years and then all of a sudden I write this one Burger King theme song which I'm singing on so that's sag so then all of a sudden I come home and there's literally 400 checks in the mail a day and I bought my first house and

kept doing that music thing and that was like hard knock of like studio because it was like writing three different songs a day little vignette 30 second vignettes especially for advertising one would be like a punk pop song one would be like a bittersweet symphony kind of vibe one would be orchestral and then the next day it'd be like japanese pop song you know yeah and it was just crank out three pieces of music every day in different styles and it just grinded it teaches you the value of a song and also a hook more so than any tour or anything. And, you know, like, I'm not the best

musician in the world. The rest of the guys in the band are by far superior musicians than I am, but I really understand the macro picture of it and style and aesthetic. And so I did that and finally made

a decent living from that and then couldn't let go of wanting to, like, write some of my own music and started writing those first songs for fits in the tantrums and all my peers around me like my friend Justin from She Wants Revenge and all these other bands

were like this fits this is your thing I've never heard you sound more authentic and in the zone and this was right after you you wrote the

the break the break in the chains of love that was the first song where I finally stopped I think as a vocalist stopped trying to imitate on a subconscious level and just saying in what felt like my natural pocket, which is more top of my register, belting. Why hadn't you been doing that before? I don't think I hadn't had like a full confidence in my own ability.

Like I said, when I went to school, I think I was very shaped by all those R&B singers in high school that just were technically far superior. I still, to this day, can't do like crazy runs. That's not my stees. But in that moment, I found this music that worked for me and my voice, like, it all aligned. And as soon as that aligned, everybody's reaction to my music changed. And also, that was 10 plus years. That was like 13 years of trying to better myself as a song writer per se.

That song wrote itself in five minutes from start to finish, all the lyrics, melody, and music like that. and then got the band together. And from those first shows, we got offered Flogging Molly, Maroon 5, Sharon Jones and the Dap Kings, all without a record deal. So I basically, that's right

when the economic crash happened. Everyone stopped paying for music for advertising for almost a year. I took my whole entire savings and dumped it into this band because... So you clearly didn't learn your lesson. No, I was just like, I couldn't let it go. wires up to a ceiling with

but the only reason I was willing to do it at that point was because I knew what failure and rejection and hitting a brick wall felt like because I had 12 years plus of that experience in the music business and this just felt cosmically different like from the first show wait so you finished this song you were just sort of

you know here you're doing jingle writing you're thinking okay you know what I'm going to write breaking the chains of love on the side because I just kind of want to hear this or were you actually writing at that point being like if I finish a song I could probably get it licensed in shows and were you still in that mindset or are you

Well once I wrote that song I was like All right I'm going to try one last time And make an album Were you actually breaking the chains of love Was it? Yeah that whole first album Although we did an EP That was called Songs for a Breakup Volume 1

And then we released the full length That had a lot of those songs on it Called Picking Up the Pieces That had money grabber on it which is what sort of broke us and all of that was a whole breakup with a long-term girlfriend so all the music sounds really happy

and playful and has like a mix of 60's soul and like 80s British northern soul invasion when all those Brits from the 80s were looking at soul music as a point of reference so it has soul elements but from like an 80s POV is that by is that Is that by design?

Yeah, for sure. And then, you know, all the beats were basically, like, chopped up hip-hop beats. So, and then a lot of the melodies weren't, like, necessarily true to pure. Like, in the way that Sharon Jones and the Dav Kings did something that was very pure, exact, like, no deviation from that time period. Ours was, like, soul melodies mixed with pop melodies, mixed with a little bit of, you know, new wave melodies all in a blender kind of together. Do you think about lyrically, since obviously a lot of it's about a breakup,

when you listen to that album, does it put you in the, like, emotional state of when you wrote it? Or do you not even connect those dots anymore because it became, you know, the birth of the band? There's a couple of songs on there that still can activate me emotionally. But also what I was saying was that that first album, all the music's super uptempo, happy 60s soul music with like the most bitter, angry, heartbroken lyrics, but the melodies are happy as well. So there was always this real juxtaposition

between the way the music sounded, maybe you want to dance and felt happy, but there was this real like bitterness and sadness and anger almost to it. And that translated like so many dudes at our shows just like singing their friggin' hearts out. Like it was that album maybe more than any of our other albums like activated people in a really organic, emotional kind of way that, you know, for us in our evolution, because every album we've made has sounded very different is, you know, there's still some people that are angry. that we didn't stick with that original formula, you know, as we've evolved from album to the album. Do you feel like you should have stuck with any?

Hell no. Yeah, of course not. Because to me, I was like, part of the thing was that I always knew that that album was like a mix of like hip hop, 80s music, soul music. But, you know, everyone wants to be so reductive in this world. So people were like, retro soul, throwback. Right. And we just got...

You spent months and months writing. songs that you care about and then people put a label on it in five minutes. Yeah, and it was just like by the end of the two or three year run of promoting that record, it was just so goddamn sick of people just trying to like almost dismiss us by using this retro. Like, oh, they're having this moment, this band that's sort of like this outlier that doesn't fit into the industry mold. They're not like 19. People almost were using it as this dismissive thing. And, you know, there's six of us.

There's so much varied influences. You know, there's a huge hip-hop element. Obviously, Noel comes from, like, singing on a lot of hip-hop records, hooks back in the day. Did she sing hooks of songs that we know, or was it more like she was in L.A. Just that was the music she was singing. Well, she co-wrote or was part writer on Let's Get It Started. Oh, wow.

And she came up with the peas. but a lot of people like dilated people and you know and some of the other two of the guys in the band are like legit jazz guys Jeremy our keyboardist

was in Macy Gray yeah you know there's just a lot of different influences so as we evolved on the second record I wanted I wanted to really let all of our influences shine when you say second record are you saying the full length no the

more than just a dream album that had out of my league and the Walker on it when were you signed a danger bird when in the like when in the process did you go and two years because what I was saying we got all these amazing things like opened up from room 5 and it was like amazing yeah but it's going to cost you $25,000

to be able to follow those tour buses all across were you with Lisa at this point did you have your management? Yeah she was with us at that point her and Brian and I just took my whole entire savings and floated the band. Everybody in the band, you know, those guys were like

heavy hitter session guys that were used to being paid top dollar to tour with bands. With real big bands, yeah, for sure. De La Sol, all of them. You know, they went out with all those guys. And so those guys took next to nothing, and I paid for us all to go out for two years. And at the end of it, we were all broke.

I was about to foreclose on my house, and we went to South by Southwest. And we were on everybody. short list of the five bands you have to see it south by this year What year was that? That was 2010 maybe And we were just sort of

Like this is our last stand like Either something's going to happen for us Or we all have to start exploring How else to survive Because I'm gonna I'm out of money You guys can't keep getting paid 100 bucks a day

Nobody's gonna get Nobody's gonna make it Why do you think they did They went through All that journey with me? Yeah I mean like that's asking a lot Because everybody, including myself, could feel that we had insane moments happen. Like who, you know, we didn't have a record deal.

Lisa got us on the morning becomes eclectic at KCRW's show. There's a tattoo artist visiting from New York. He's driving around in his rental car. Here's our songs, flips out, buys our little EP songs for a break of volume one, flies back to New York. Adam Levine from Maroon 5 happens to be his favorite tattoo artist. Adam comes in to get some work done on his sleeves.

Here's the music. The guy says, you've got to hear this new band, fits in the tantrums. Crazy. Adam freaks out, starts tweeting about us, start tweeting back with Adam. A week later, we're playing school night at Bardot here in Hollywood, and he's sitting on the couch as far as you are for me, three feet away.

And we're performing, and there's Adam Levine. And a week later, they say, do you want to go out on tour with us? And like I said, I knew what rejection and not being able to get arrested in this business felt like. And it was like... That's not that. That's not that. This felt like the universe was changing. The music felt right.

People were responding to it. There was just this organic energy that was flowing. And that's why everyone was willing to go on that journey. We get two years later of just slogging it out on the road. And at that point where you guys I mean you know It's called fits in the tantrums At that time were you guys

You know Were you guys already sharing everything You know like we're like How early on in the process was it like We're a band It definitely was a process Because also those guys came from being like Session players and hired guns

So So equity really had like Yeah I mean yeah We gave that you know we figured out a way that everybody in the band could share because that was also the only way that we were going to keep it going to was this every if everybody had some ownership in the band but it you know was definitely a process i think for those guys to understand what that meant

for them you know they were so ingrained in them to be you know hired guns it would just be about like where's my per diem on the road today you know and it took them a while to realize that this was like a real thing that they actually had ownership. They're part of it. Yeah. You know, and now three records in,

everybody's, you know, what I love too is that everybody in this band there was, besides Jeremy who had a lot of success with Macy, everyone else kind of never had their moment.

Sure. Like their full-fledged moment. Right. And so it's been this collective experience, even for our managers, like Lisa, like to have this moment where we all got to succeed together

through hard work was pretty, was pretty incredible. And we showed up at South By, out of money, out of time, on our last breath of air. And we played KCRW's fancy showcase,

and we start playing, and there's every president of every label standing there, and by the third song, every one of them left. And my heart was just singing because it took me right back to those SIR showcase days

where I was like, fuck, what's gonna... Really? This is the, this is the way it's going to go down right now. And our last show... All that touring, all this money, and they come in for three songs, and they leave.

Yeah, you know, I mean, typical... And that's South by Southwest, but if you're not, you know... But keep going, sorry. And so our last show of that South by was we were playing the Poblove Foundation, which is Jeff Castellus's foundation to raise money for childhood cancer research.

And he, at the time, was one of the only... and ran Danger Bird Records. And Danger Bird repped our music just for licensing to try and find placements, but we weren't on their label. And it was eight bands playing that night, seven of which were Danger Bird artists and then us. And we did what we do, which is it doesn't matter

whether we're playing in like a conference room for radio people or in an arena. We play every show like it's an arena, full energy, no holds barred like you saw us at art of elysium and we blew the friggin' roof off that that night and kind of blew the doors off of every other band and all the anybody came up to talk to jeff about was us yeah and our band and they all think you guys are probably signed to them so they're like wow congratulations and his wife joanne sort of looked up and goes you'd be an idiot not to sign these guys we get back on a plane to head back to l-a i'm devastated i'm like that's it

They're going to have to, like, you know, stop trying to push this band, you know. Yeah. And he called me up and offered us a record deal. And then we had put out, you know, the full length picking up the pieces. And Money Grabber just had this, like, truly viral moment of its own, you know, was number one at AAA Radio. And it was just this very amazing moment for us as a band, but it was still on this smaller level.

and then we finally got upstream to Atlantic, to Electra Atlantic. And, you know, and then we got off the road, and we wrote 40 songs and 30 days for that second record. It was just like... Were you at that point because Money Grabber starts doing well on a chart, does it now... Did the focus then become, okay, well, now we need to sell records

and we need to sell, go chart position, and does your focus as a writer start to change or are you at that point thinking this is a vehicle to get people to shows? Are you court? Like is any of the writing process? I was very aware of the power at that point of radio. Before this band, I was one of those people that just believed like everyone else. Oh, terrestrial radio is dead and it was like, oh no, even on this very small format of AAA radio, which has a maximum weekly audience of 3 million,

which is tiny, especially when you compare it to the 140 million weekly audience share of top 40 radio. But that moment permitted us to go to any city and sell out a 400-person cap room, you know? And it was like, wow, this has power. And for us, too, we did the work. We visited every radio station,

played every indie record store, did every meet and greet. We didn't say no to a single thing. and so you know you get a taste of some... It's hard to do. It's really hard. I don't think people recognize how difficult that is. Oh, it's a grind.

And I think you taste that success and you see people singing your songs everywhere you go. And for me, who, like I said, couldn't get arrested before, that was like a moment where I was like, wow, this is amazing to see people actually connect with your music. So, you know, on the second record, I was like, all right, we're going to take some chances. We're not going to make the same retro soul record.

We're going to bring in all these other influences, which one of my biggest is 80s New Wave. Yeah. And we wrote, like I said, 40 songs in 30 days, this insane output. We're like the Walker and the Walker and Adam. Amide League where they were all part of that 40 songs. Did you know in those 40 songs these two are going to be life-changing? Yeah.

Actually, Noel brought the original incarnation of Out of My League to one of those first sessions. She wrote it on a little garage band with a bad drum, Apple Loop and stuff. And funny thing was she was in her mind writing it for like Cold War kids or something. And she sang like in a male voice with a British accent, which first of all, Noel trying to do it. British accent is pretty funny. And she played it for me thinking it wasn't even. even for us and I was like this this is the song for us that's going to break us at alternative radio and she was like really I was like yes and we took the song I can't

remember was that first or was yeah awesome and I just knew that that song was going to break us at alternative to me it was like had everything it felt retro new wavy but modern all at the same time and the hooks were undeniable in it and so we took that song and changed some chords around, wrote a bridge, and just kept trying to, like, infuse that thing with more steroids. How did you guys write it? Did you guys write it? I mean, I know she came in with the idea, but, you know, when you guys are writing 40 songs, are you, is everyone coming in with different ideas?

Is it sort of jamming through and being like, ah, that's a sick core change, that's right over that? Do you take melodies home? It's almost never jamming. We tried to jam, but what I find is that six people in a room, it's like, wrangling cats. Right. It's very difficult.

It's very difficult. And sometimes, you know, for better or worse, that can be a difficult process, especially navigating with a band of six people. Because I'm also somebody that has, you know, I mean, I'm sure people would call me a control freak in my own right. But I also have my own vision for where I want things to go. And when there's six people all trying to like steer the ship at the same time, it's harder for me to like coalesce and get the compass pointed in the right direction so you know a lot of

the songs started with me and most of the time when i write i'm i love being in the studio i love the idea that i can wake up in the morning put together a beat play some chords really set a mood and a texture so much by even the single sound of like what the snare sounds like and the piano or organ or a synth patch or whatever and then i'll just start doing i think similar to what you do which is i like just sort of off-the-cuff freestyle over it you know and have this moment where uh sort of and feel like it's almost like this primal tapping into what you are feeling emotionally about this music at the time throwing out nonsensical words what words sort of naturally sort of pop about what combination of syllables, you know, what sounds like it flows and what sort of meaning kind of might be under the surface subconsciously in you that comes out and build it like that.

And, you know, and then the guys would bring some ideas and Noel and I would sit there and try and write lyrics and melody over them. And sometimes they would work and sometimes they wouldn't. I'm a big believer in too. is like I'm so afraid of failure and also I don't believe that you shit gold every time. So I'm a numbers guy. Like I want to write, right, right, right, right, right because you're not going to win every time

and you're lucky if one out of every 10 songs is like truly special. Yeah, you're at a really good percentage at that rate. Right, and hopefully as you get better, you know, maybe that percentage gets a little higher. But I think that's been one of my greatest assets that's not to ever settle. And in working with other artists as well and stuff,

what I've found is that there's a lot of people, not so much in the top line world, but in the artist's world where they don't understand the idea of revision or rewriting, where they sort of are married to their first idea. They think every idea they make is great. And to me, like, all I have is my own intuition when it comes to songwriting. You know, a perfect example is Money Grabber.

When we wrote it, we were playing it out on the road, I could just tell. This song just felt special. But the bridge never hit the mark. And we wrote four different bridges until we got to the one that just felt like it didn't take the energy down. It didn't stay, like, parallel. It went from 9 to 10, you know. and really to me, like, elevated the song and sealed the deal on that song being,

to me, I think that song is going to stand the test of time and be a classic, maybe more than almost any other song we've ever done. When you did, you know, I think the Walker and Ottom I Lee, because they were licensed so much, you know, was there a correlation in your head, do you think because of your history of having done songs for commercials and jingles that you start

connecting the dots that maybe that's why your songs are licensed. I mean, I can't think of that many bands that have adding hand clap and whatnot. I can't think of many bands that have that much success at licensing. Do you think there's any relationship between your history and that? Or is it a coincidence? Is it a coincidence? I don't think it's totally coincidence. I mean, I spent a lot of time

in that world. And to me, like, I love catchy music. I'm obsessed with what is that thing that just gets in your friggin' ear. It's an earworm and it won't leave. And I think that I've always been really good. I have to work at melody and always making it better. And usually in a song I can write one part right out the gate that's just like a home run. For me to do like a verse, pre-chorus, post-chorus and the bridge.

like it's hard and I have to keep working and revising and revising but when it comes to the music or especially like the little melodic hook you know it's like I did the whistles for the walker and I was like oh my god

this is the most annoyingly catchy thing in the world you know and also you know it gets stuck in my head constantly still it's very frustrating I'm not happy with you but it's cool and then you know like I said I spent a lot of time in advertising and, you know, it wasn't like I was making a decision to do something on purpose in that way, but it's just...

So you could tell it would work. Yeah, I was like, this song... Well, it's like my favorite thing about... I was like, this song's going to license like a motherfucker. When we did the bridge for my house and Flo Rida says, in the middle of the bridge, he goes home run, slam dunk, touchdown pass. And the songs has nothing to do with sports. You know, it's about not going out. you know that's what it's about

and he goes and he does it and he's like he just turned to us he goes trust me and he says mikasa sukasa trust me he just starts throwing in all these things the whole bridge is just like gives a subtle hint at all the things it could be licensed for

and you know the people who are really aware of that world are really smart because they find a way to they realize you know the multiple formats and how to break a song and how valuable, you know, those little quippy things are, just a really good whistle and all that stuff. One question I had was if you have, in your world of alternative rock,

a lot of those writers don't even know about the writing community. They learn about it maybe later. But here you're talking about topliners and producers and you know, you're in the writing game. how did you get introduced to that coming from being in a band? Well, I think on the second record, and the more than just a dream, we, you know, like the first record I co-wrote with my mentor, this guy, Chris Seafreed, East Coast guy,

and he's really the guy that encouraged me to follow my dreams, to believe in me, encouraged me vocally, to sing in my style, So I've always been about collaboration, and I always, you know, like, I can write a song from start to finish on my own, but I like, I love collaborating, and I love to get a song done faster than slower. Right. And so on the second record, you know, some of the guys in the band helped on some of the songs like The Walker. It was basically the song was the whistles

and, ooh, crazy is what they think about me. And I had this lyric at the top and that melody and then we didn't have anything else. And we couldn't figure out what the chorus was. James from our band wrote the chords to the chorus. And then Noel came up with the, oh, here we go. And so we did that, collaborated with some of the guys in the band.

And then we worked with Dave Bassett on a couple of tracks on the record. Dave Bess and I went to high school The same high school He's 10 years older or whatever But in the middle Somewhere between Chicago and Milwaukee For there to be a high school To have multiple people

And the songwriting community is unusual Anyway keep coming And then we had a song on the record On the second record called Break the Walls And I had this song I knew the chorus was great The music I was so proud of all the production Because I did a majority of that stuff at home

and couldn't crack the code on the verse and I was friends with Sia at the time and I said to Sia I said I know look I know you're writing for everybody you're hanging with Katie Perry but can you do me a solid and come help me with this track and she walked in and wrote the verse

melody to that song 30 seconds and to this day I'll say that Sia's the best top liner ever worked with. It's amazing because when you talk about the editing and the revision and whatnot, there's very few people that can write out the gate. Let me just give you an example.

That day, she's like, did that, wrote the verse for that, and then the song was finally finished. And she's like, you got anything else? And I literally had like three tracks laying around there. I was just messing with, you know, and see if she just comes in a laptop. press record. She's never heard the song before. You play her the track and she's just singing

sort of under her breath or out loud at different points like a bunch of different ideas, walks out of the room, you hear her typing for 10 minutes. She comes back in and she's got you know, intro hook, verse pre-chorus, chorus, post-course

hook, post-post-course hook, bridge and like an amazingly well-crafted high concept lyric. And she did that three times in a row in 30 minutes and I was like I'm the worst songwriter in the world you but that's not how it really because there was a there's a another podcast um Malcolm gladwells and he talks about genius and he talks about Picasso and Sazon and references those two where you know the Cias and we talked about Julia Michaels earlier you know some of these people where

they're so prolific and they're so good so quickly and they can have this incredible catalog of just genius copyrights and then there's the the the saizons where he never even signed his name to something until later because he would see a painting on a wall 40 years after he's done with it take it down and start changing it you know after he sold it to the person And he'd come back and see it and say, you know what, that should have been here. That should have been there. And the idea that what genius is is not necessarily, that is, see as that's a genius quality. But by being patient and over time developing a craft and doing that kind of writing is, is an equal but totally different form of genius.

Absolutely. It's in awe when you're around these, you know, the Benny Blancos. They're really young, just brilliant. They're so prolific Everything they touch seems to be magical You know And then there's the guys who grind and grind and grind and grind And a lot of what they do is brilliant

It just takes so much time You know the writing process changes Well and that was the thing too Was like watching her was unbelievable But on that second record I'm more than just a dream We wrote it so fast We were on an indie budget

At that point because we hadn't upstream To a lecture yet You know We wrote those songs 40 songs, 30 days, a week of pre-pro, three weeks of recording album done. And it was like, oh, well, there was no time for a reflection. It was like, these choices better be right. And on the last record, our latest record with hand clap on it, self-titled, you know,

I was like, oh, this is going to be the same thing again. 40 songs, 30 days, boom, done. And this was not that case. This was a year-long process. to get the record done because also more success, more expectation, you know. Is that, what's the pressure now?

I mean, before it was, I want one of those guys who's folding their arms to sign me. Now you're three albums into it, you headline a bunch of shows, you know, you're booked up, you've had a lot of success. What's the pressure now?

What's the next step? Is to keep writing music that people relate to and connect with, you know? And I feel like, you know, like on that second record, we definitely had some little mini co-write moments with people. But I also, you know, like, I'm a huge lover of top 40. Like, that's, you know, I'm not a guy that's like listening to like weird indie rock. Like, I love melody.

Yeah. And I love tracks. And I think that there's never been a more interesting time in pop music. in top 40 music than now. You have the most amazing talented producers, track makers, top liners

that are all contributing. And what I've found too is that for better or worse with the sort of new movement of like the super collective of what

pop song writing. Because now I mean it's rare to have a Top 40 song that's not written by three to seven people. Right. You know? And what that does is you're bringing in all these different talents. You know, everybody's really talented at what they do. And what I love about the top line world is people are all about, let's make the song better.

Let's revise, going back to that idea that like sometimes artists just, they think every idea they do is good and they're not willing. willing to be critical. And I've even had arguments with Noel in our band where I'm like, we are going to save as the version of the song, we're going to throw that verse away, and we're going to try and write a new one. If we don't top it, we're going to go back. And it would be a battle sometimes to get her to like, you know,

revise that. And then finally, when she got on board, you know, it was like, okay, and that's the way you make a song better. And whenever I work with top liners, because I try and also, whenever I'm not on the road, is try and write for other people. people and stuff. I love working with top liners because they're like, oh, you're not feeling the verse. Let's do it again. Let's make it better. Let's do it. We've had that experience you and I writing together. It's like that is an amazing thing. And pop music now is so goddamn good because of that collective of however many Swedish people you have in the room, the Roskolan, the Sia, the whoever the hottest young DJ track guy. Like you've got got so much talent

and the songs are oscillating now at the highest level Well this is that pre-1964 kind of it's before albums were a thing where you know, well albums were a thing but before bands were really

creating albums and you have the Brill Building churning out records that where the songs really are the focus and sometimes there was a B-side but for the most part it was about one song at a time and the competition to make when you're talking about 40 songs on you know per genre that's it you know and you're talking television and you have whatever 250 channels of 24-7 material and you're thinking of

radio and you're like if you're looking at alternative rock right now there are 40 songs that are on that top 40 that's it they don't just leave every week so for you to wheezel your way in and weasel your way up the chart to do that with hot AC same thing to do that with Pop and going through all that and just trying to weasel your way into those top 40 and being patient. I mean, how is it, as an artist, I've always wondered when something like HandClap, which has now been out for probably four or five months. Oh yeah, it came out in March, so it's been well. Oh, yeah, well over that.

So then, and now it's climbing now faster and faster because it picks up steam. Yeah. You know, how do you have the patience to watch that? I mean. Oh, I mean, it's tough. You know, I mean, it's, you know, for me on this record, I, you know, going back to this idea of like these collectives of songwriters and how, to me, the level of craftsmanship that's going into these songs is mind-blowing. When you have that many brilliant people working in a room together, the output, these songs are so undeniable that I feel like it's really hard as a artist to just sit there with a guitar or piano. and write a song that's going to compete in a certain way.

And those writers are writing a song every day or so. So it's like that's what they do while you're on tour. So I mean, I guess I'm biased because I'm a songwriter. But I think the value that a songwriter brings in a session, it's not really to write their song, it's to help facilitate the artists. Yeah. And so that's why for this record,

I did more co-writes than I've ever done. Every song on the record is a co-wrote. write with other people. It's interesting because it was self-titled too. You know, that that's kind of an honor to be on an album where the artist calls it, self-titles the album, and yet you co-write with a lot of people on the outside. You know, it says, it even brings in sort of more trust into the community to be, to be able to say that by co-writing with you, I feel like it's showing off what we are.

Yeah. You know, in a way. Well, and I also, you know, I think we also got, part of the reason why we had so much writer's block and such a hard time in this last record, too, was that we were just exhausted because by that time we're like talking about six years on the road for most of the year, so many shows.

And tour life, if people haven't done it, is the weirdest lifestyle of all. You're never in a city for more than 17 hours and then you're on to the next place. Everything in your world is changing every single day, except for you and the band and your crew. And that's a very disconnected sort of. You can really be detached from yourself almost in a way. You're floating.

A lot of, I mean, the number of times I've been driving in a van from point A to point B, and I'm looking at a downtown skyline, and I'm like, I don't know where I am today. Yeah. And it takes me like a good five minutes to be like, oh, I'm in Nashville today. Okay, right. and to get back home find ourselves in this writer's block moment not feeling inspired by almost anything

I was hearing wanting the new record to go and yet another forward leap of direction but not sure what that was going to look like working with those outside songwriters was almost like therapy sessions where it was like sit down and be like so what's going on with you Fitz

and I'd be like well what is going on with I haven't even had a moment to think And I'm like, well, you know, had a baby, got married, you know, have had all this success. And with that success is like, also there's a whole flip side to that success is that most of my relationships around me have changed as a result. And negatively or positively? Not necessarily negative, but just my relationship to that sort of circle of acquaintance people that I've known around my life is different now. Yeah. You know, I mean, of course, we're in L.A., in industry town, and it's like, look, in my head, there's that list of people that wouldn't talk to me before fits in the tantrums, and now they're all up in my grow, and I'm like, mm-hmm, you to the side.

It's hard not to the side. You wouldn't talk to me, and now that I'm in a successful band, you're like, want to try and act like we've known each other forever. And then there's just friends and acquaintances that now that I see them, all they want to be is like, congratulations. It's so amazing, all the success. And I'm a very grateful, humble person for all the success that we've had. Everybody in the band is, and that's been part of our trademark of why people love working with us. It helps you guys. I mean, for lack of a better word, it helps when you're a failure for years.

And then you earn this sort of success. It makes you recognize how special that moment really is. For sure. But then, you know, like, there's moments where it's a job. And there's moments where, like, I miss my friends. friggin' kid and my wife and I'm tired of being on the road and not feeling like I'm connected to like reality almost sometimes and it's not always fun even though this is my exact dream that came true but then you feel like you have a responsibility to always feel exuberantly grateful and

happy about it and some days I'm not happy and then people will come and be like congratulations and that's the day that I'm just feeling low and a little down and don't know sometimes why I'm traveling 300 days out of the year or whatever and I have to muster like one more time energy to be like yeah thanks you know like this is awesome I know it's hard to complain when when everyone knows that everything's like

you know in quotes going well life still goes on you know it's like even with those successes I'm sure you know as you well know you've been having like the year of years as as a songwriter and you busted your ass and when we first met it was like before any of this shit was going on and you still have your good days and your bad days

and your bad days and life still happens on life's terms. And being also a front person in the band, there's a lot of interviews, radio liners, all this stuff where I have to, like, it's always an output of energy. And sometimes, you know, I don't have it in me. So it's just been a trip, this journey of, like, how to navigate all that stuff. And so working with these outside songwriters was just these beautiful moments

of people, like, really helping pull these. stories and to me that's why this record ended up being a really deeply emotional record too you know it's a pop record for sure but to me the content the meaning of what's behind this record is there's a lot of deeply personal stuff you know that happened as a result of of the last couple years how much of your relationship i mean i think my wife has a lot to do with my songwriting and and so many facets. Do you bring me, I know your studio is in your house, but do you bring music into your relationship regularly or is it something you have to separate? Oh no. I, my wife Kaylee, my wife Kaylee is one of my most trusted advisors because she's musical. She can sing, but she's not a

musician. She's not in the business. But she's, I trust her ear more than almost anybody. Yeah. Because she's really intuitive. And like she'll listen to the song and she'll be like, it's okay. I'd be like, what? You know, I just friggin, this thing's awesome. Maybe I'll send her the melody from now on. And she's like, you know, she's like, I'm not really feeling it. Or she'll listen and songs, she'll be like, something's hurting my ear.

That's annoying me right now. And I'll be like, like, it is a little brittle, you know? Oh, that sound has like that like peer, something. She knows she picked me up off the ground. like I said, this album took a year to make and those first five months was nothing but hitting a brick wall. Noelle and I were bashing heads. She wasn't feeling it. I wasn't feeling it.

You know, it was dark and I was going to bed pretty much in tears every night because I felt like I couldn't pull out a single thing that I felt excited about and she watched me go through that journey every day, you know, and I had made friends with this guy, Sam Hollander. Yeah, of course. Who I met through Kevin Griffin from Better Than Ezra.

And we did a songwriting session, and it was like, when I met Sam was like my brother from another. We just clicked. We had like every single like similar reference. We're almost the same age. We like had all of those key 80s musical influences together. And we just connected. So I asked them one day, I said, can we get together and try and write a song for fits in the tantrums? And that was at about the fifth month mark.

And maybe part of my own demise was that I was trying to write a hit, you know, those first five months. Or I just had such heavy expectations on myself to create something that I was excited that gave me like a musical hard on that I was just pumped on. And so when I walked into his studio five months in, just feeling very unconfident about my own. at that time and just depleted. I said, you know what? We're going to write a song in 15 minutes. No thought. I'm not going to think he had his studio aid there.

They had a keyboard. And I'd be like, give me some drum sounds. Nope, nope, no, no. Okay, I like that kick. More, more, more, snare, snare, okay. And I did a beat real quick. And then I was like, give me some keyboard sounds. Nope, nope, nope, nope.

Okay, that one right there, that like cheesy horn sound. And I did, but, dun dun dun dun dun, dun, dan, dan, da. I was like, that's like the most annoying bar mitzvah, like catchy little hook. So I laid that down. And then Sam's an amazing lyricist, which is, I'm a great co-writer of lyrics. Like I love to write every fourth line or make sure that that right balance of like syllables to consonants. Like that it's always something that sings well.

Yeah. You know, and to me, that's so amazing, you change one word and how much a line can go from being just like a throwaway line or a line that's in transition to becoming kind of a hook in of itself in that way that you choose those words that cut or taking, you know, a top liner's fourth line and saying like, okay, you said that. But let's try and say it in a little more fucked up kind of left of center way and taking their line and taking my weird asses. brain and being like, okay, let's say it like this. And they're like, oh, that's, that's cool. That's different. And so him and I just banged out those lyrics and that song was written in 15 minutes. And I knew as soon as we were writing it, I was like, this is the song. You know, and the funny thing is that I sent it to our A&R guy there at the time. And he was like, I don't get it. Yeah, of course. And I was like, you're going to get it. This is our song.

because to me also, you know, I didn't want to just be an alternative band. I want a song, you know, like, to me, like, I want to reach as many people with our music. And I know the way that we're going to do that is by crossing to these bigger formats at radio. I've heard that song in a couple stadiums now, you know. It's a big NFL cheerleader. They all have routines to it now. But it's great. I mean, like, you hear it and you hear it see, look around and everyone around.

he's like, I saw this couple in front of me at maybe it was a Rams game or it was a king's game. I mean, I've seen it in a couple places where like this cute couple they looked at each other and they started clapping with the hand clap thing and you're sitting there and you're like, that's, those are those moments where you smile

because, you know, my friends are creating a moment for this couple. Like they have some inside joke attached or not inside joke. They love that song enough that they learn it together. You know? I mean, that's like that's such a compliment.

It's pretty crazy that you can write a song in a day that becomes a part of all these people's lives. Yeah, and you know, like that thing we're talking about very early on in the conversation is you don't strike gold every time. So it's like that song wrote

itself in 15 minutes but there was five months of blood, sweat, and true tears that like arrived you know so I kind of look at that whole collective time spent to get to that moment you mean of the writing or the release yeah yeah

no it was like literally you get into the production of it and all the other things five five months of just trying to like write a song and not being able to and then finally getting to that song that writes itself in 15 minutes it was like sort of like I was due by that time like I had never given up even though every day I felt like I was hitting a brick wall and it was like finally something happened

And once that song was written, and that take on there is my scratch vocal take, because I was so one elated, my hit meter, my personal instinctual hit meter was off the charts when we wrote HandClap, and I was so friggin relieved to know that we finally had the song that I could never capture that energy ever again. And that's why that take is the scratch vocal take that's on the finished product. Thank you for coming. Thank you for doing this. Thanks for hanging. And I think if there's one thing that I can say is that it's so rare to meet somebody

who's willing to have that tenacity and the patience to see their artistic career come to fruition. And the fact that you've done it while taking care of your fan base, like what will entertain them? As a writer, that's all that matters to me, is to make sure that it's about entertaining them. and it's not always about entertaining myself. Even when it's about myself, it'll eventually be their song. You see them clapping in a stadium.

You see them. It's because it's no longer yours. It's their song. And that's the thing I realized very early on is that you can have one meeting for a song and then people take it on and they make it their own. And it's how it resonates with them. And like the walker, first line,

crazy is what they think about me. Ain't going to stop because they tell me so. I had no idea that just writing that lyric, that's part of the reason why that song succeeded. Because it's like it basically is a call to arms to every inner freak and every single person. And whether you're the jock or the nerd, everybody feels like a freak kind of.

And that connected for people. And that's why that song worked. You know? It's like, can't think that, but it's like you write it for one reason and then people just use it as their own tool for however they want to interpret it. Yeah, absolutely.

It doesn't matter what your objective is. Ultimately, like, there's that sort of consumption of it of their own part and how they feel. Sure. 100%. Well, thank you. And I will send you an email later with some more melodies for you. Yes. Oh, and P.S.

My wife loves the melodies. All right. Thank you. Thanks for listening to this episode of And The Writer is. If you want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed, be sure to check out our Spotify playlist or visit our website at and the writer is.com. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe to us on iTunes. You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter. And The Writer Is is produced by Joe London, edited by Miles Bergsmuh, and published by Big Deal music.

A special thanks to Jeff Sparger, David Silberstein from Mega House Music, and Michael White. Here's a sneak peek of next week's, and The Writer is. I think I have probably in some ways a terrible reputation, in some ways a great reputation for telling someone at some point, like you probably hit the wall on this. How about bringing in another producer to finish it? And it's sort of insulting to some people, and other people love it. They realize they want the final product, you know.

And ultimately, you know, the traditional producer is somebody who gets something, all the way to the finish line. Right. And sometimes that means recognizing, you know, the players on the team that it needs, you know, the one position is being unfulfilled and needs to come in. Until next time, this is Ross Bowling.